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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
I like this jacket — it's interesting, a classic in black and white, and you get two in one, because it's reversible. One side is this tweed (pictured), and the other is a shadowy flower pattern. I'd wear the jacket with black trousers or on top of a black sheath dress, and maybe add a pop of color in my earrings or shoes. Was $498, now $298 at Lord & Taylor's (only select sizes left). ELIE TAHARI Printed Reversible Jacket
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(L-2)
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
AtlantaAttorney
I love the idea of a reversible jacket and I love both of these prints and the cut of the jacket. But one would have to wear exactly the right shirt underneath to prevent the possibility of getting any sweat/lotion, etc. on the other side, unless you dry cleaned it before turning it inside out. Not sure how practical it is in reality?
Anonymous
Ohhhh good point … perhaps a long-sleeved tee or something.
fwiw
Sorry, but I think this is fugly all over, both prints, cut, etc.
MelD
For some reason this reminds me of Will Smith’s jacket in Fresh Prince- no thanks.
chix pix
Love this jacket – both sides. I would definitely wear it over something – I always want to be prepared to remove a jacket in a restaurant or elsewhere. Clever design and it seems like a four seasons item to where anywhere. I might wear it with jeans, black pants, skirt, even with wide leg black silk pants or with a long sheet black skirt. I think it would be slimming. The neckline is maybe out of date, though – I would probably like the jackeet even better with a bit lower neckline.
Anna D.
Yeah, I think I have very low pattern tolerance, because the pattern of this is too much for me. The cut is lovely, though.
L
I don’t like the way the tweed pattern is kind of wavy – not straight – and how the trim down the front placket is printed, not solid. Too much! I like the idea, though.
AEK
Early threadjack, sorry.
I’ve seen it happen a bunch of times but it just happened to me: eve of trial (yesterday), plaintiff tells us they’re going to ask for voluntary dismissal (I credit my amazing pretrial brief, of course:)). Now all of that work getting ready for trial to start this afternoon is down the drain. A good result, yes, but I was so amped and now I’m just full of weird nervous energy. And suddenly with some unexpected unscheduled time! It’s like they waited for us to spend every possible last cent, and every minute of time preparing, and then pulled out the rug. Argh!!! You can bet I’ll be arguing to the judge this afternoon they need to cut us a big check for costs if they want their dismissal.
But seriously, what do I do with all this pent-up adrenaline that I have no use for?!?
AIMS
Do something you wouldn’t have otherwise had time to do.
Just for yourself. Maybe it can be something silly or that you would otherwise consider a waste of time, or maybe a silly indulgence. You & your kick ass pre-trial brief deserve it!
North Shore
Wow, congratulations! That’s great — do something to celebrate the success of your brief and arguments.
fwiw
You go have cocktails and take the afternoon off like any sane person would. Sheeesh, you should not need to ask the internet what to do when you win and get the day off.
Anonymous
Having a bad day, fwiw? Sensing a little angst!!
fwiw
No, it’s like asking “I won a million dollars, what do I do?”
Come on, it just seems like self-bragging through the internet with a fake question of “what to do?”
Anonymous
Ah, that’s true. I was sitting here dreaming of a nice white wine too… that’s what I would do!!
UnSub
If someone wins a million dollars the first thing that they should do is ask “what do I do?” If they just start spending, trouble is on the horizon. I’ve seen it, fwiw.
AEK
Thanks for the support, fwiw. I thought I made it clear I had to go to court this afternoon to argue their voluntary dismissal motion. Sorry to have offended you with my fake self-bragging. It sounds like you’re the one who should go have a cocktail. Lighten up!
associate
Although it’s great for the client, I HATE it when that happens for the same reasons you described above. In the past, I’ve gone to some gym class (or 2) I’ve been blowing off b/c I only had time to run 20 minutes in the morning and do some celebrating with friends. And I also like to think it’s always b/c of the pretrial motions/briefs so my celebrations are based around that ;)
EC
Last summer I was working on a big transaction that suddenly ended in the middle of the day, and I used my jittery energy to finish up several pro bono cases lingering around my section, then baked a cake and played video games until 2 in the morning. The exercise suggestions might be better options!
SF Bay Associate
My massive case settled on the eve of trial last fall. I ended up going home, and flying out the next day for a week of vacation at the beach.
As for right now, is there a trampoline park near you? San Francisco has the “House of Air” and maybe jumping up and down (possibly saying “wheeeeee!”) would be appropriate :).
AIMS
Oh my god — I wish I had a trampoline park near me!!!!
Adding one more reason for why I must travel to SF ASAP.
Lola
I would certainly take the afternoon off. Walk around your city. Spend time outside, if the weather’s nice where you are. Relax. If you drink cocktails to relax, then go for it. Congratulations!
AEK
Thanks for the suggestions— I knew this happens all the time, but I was really disoriented for a couple hours. Trampoline park wins best idea. But since it’s about 5 degrees out I don’t think it’s an option. I do think I will take it easy on myself for the rest of the week. I can’t take off any time since I’m a new hire, but I think some longer lunches, gym time, and happy hours are in order. That and filing a petition for costs for all those GD trial exhibits.
conbrio
I know – I hate that too. It’s as bad as when you finish a huge project and you just want to sit back and enjoy the sense of accomplisment for a little while but instead you have to dive into all your other 50 million cases that have been waiting for attention – drives me nuts. Go shopping, schedule drinks with all the friends you weren’t going to be able to see if you were slaving away at trial, clean your house, get some spa services, go take a kickboxing class, see some movies. Have fun!
Anonymous
I agree that the cut is nice for this woman, but the pattern looks like an old TV test pattern. What does the other side look like? No matter, because, it would never wash at work. Our firm insists we only wear solid colors, light or dark, but solid. No patterns. In other words, there’s not a chance we can try and be stylish.
AIMS
Wow, you actually have a dress code that says “no patterns”?
Do pin stripes count? What about tattersall or houndstooth?
I don’t think anyone at my job would blink an eye at this jacket, but I just don’t like it. I think this is one of those “for a certain age” jackets. Great for some, would look silly on me.
anon
I don’t believe for a second there is a firm that actually says “No patterns” What about men’s ties, women’s blouses?
I call flame.
MelD
Sounds like it to me- it’s pretty hard to find solid ties that look nice. At a minimum they probably have some stripes. A lot of suits have some sort of pattern to them- be it a pinstripe or houndstooth.
anon
Maybe this poster showed up in a floral print satin suit and was told there’s a “no pattern” dresscode. LOL. :)
Bet now, we get 100s of posters claiming how we dont work where they work, we don’t know the dress code there, . . . a repeta of how “bubble coats are not acceptable in Boston in 2 feet of snow when you walk to work, I dont want to portray that look at work” debate all over again. Uggghhh.
Ballerina girl
Man, let it go. Do you get a kick out of being a total jerk? We had this ridiculous debate a week ago. At least have the guts to wear what you like without being so insecure that an anonymous blog commenter talking about her own choices for work don’t threaten you into such a tight little fetal position of defensiveness. I couldn’t care less what you look like when you go to work–something tells me your personality does you enough harm on its own.
anon
I’m not the one who had the discussion with you, but thanks for randomly attacking me. I just think you came off rude and defensinve then, and appparently so again.
Maybe your personality is the one causing you harm.
fwiw
You sound like the jerk with that snippish response. Especially when anon just referenced the debate and did not even say which side she came out on.
Ballerina girl
It’s not random when it’s in response to your comment. I used to enjoy the fact that this site wasn’t full of snarky people looking to pick fights.
Anonymous
MEOW. I guess ballerina’s are all hungry and therefore bitchy.
Noner
Um…maybe you are the one that needs to let it go?
Ballerina girl
Done.
surrounded by lawyers
The only thing I can think of to explain it is if people are appearing on TV regularly. Patterns don’t translate well on-screen. (The commenter said “firm,” but that might mean company as opposed to law firm, accounting firm, etc. Maybe it’s media?) But otherwise, sheesh!
AtlantaAttorney
Or UBS…didn’t they come out with that crazily detailed dress code recently? Though I thought it only applied to tellers in their Swiss offices, or some such specific position.
fwiw
it only applied to Swiss offices.
Anonymous
They retracted it recently (today?).
K
Threadjack here…
I need some advice… I’m a first year attorney and I was laid off just last week with a pitiful severance. I have plenty of contacts in my field and I’m optimistic I can find something else, but at the moment I’m still stunned and I have no idea what my next move should be. I wasn’t around long enough to build a lot of savings, and I have plenty of student loans. I know I need to apply for jobs, figure out the loan situation, cut extra expenses, etc. but I don’t know where to start!
eaopm3
I would go back to the career services office at your law school, if you consider them helpful. They might be able to point you in the right direction and you might be able to chat up some profs who would be happy to act as a reference for you. I haven’t spent much time networking, so others would have to advise you on how to do that.
Fiona
I’m so sorry. I was laid off as a first-year associate two years ago, this very same week back in 2009. So I feel your pain. A few thoughts:
– The market is SO much better now than it has been for the last 2.5 years. You will find a new job and you will be ok.
– First thing to do? Cut your expenses drastically. You can get your student loans deferred for economic hardship, so do that right away before you have to pay another bill. Cancel any services that you can do yourself (dog walker, house cleaner, grocery delivery). If you pay for parking where you live, cancel it and street park. Cancel your gym membership. Do buy a bunch of groceries and don’t eat out for a while. You will be amazed at how cheaply you can live.
– File for unemployment. The sooner you do this, the sooner you’ll get your unemployment checks.
– Update your resume and start contacting people. Don’t be ashamed that you were laid off – the more people you tell, the more people you will have thinking of you if opportunities come up.
– Finally? Enjoy it. I’m not even kidding. I look back on my unemployed days with fondness, honestly. You will be back to work before you know it, so enjoy the opportunity to get lunch with friends (especially new moms that you never get to see otherwise), wear jeans, go enjoy free things in your city, do some online dating (if you’re not in a relationship, of course!), spend more time cooking, etc. Not having to work in the middle of the day is kind of awesome, if you can let yourself enjoy it. Plus, there will be lots of downtime. You’ll probably send out a flurry of emails and resumes, and then… wait. So you might as well go out and have some fun in the meantime.
alhambra
I second the “enjoy it” tip. I was unemployed for 6 months and it was great. Granted I had a part time at-home job and great severance so I wasn’t destitute, but I hung out in the park, made friends with the crazy people at Starbucks, read a TON of books (join the library), took a class at the community college in a subject I was interested in, watched “the people’s court” every day, watched the entire series of “scrubs”, went to the gym three times a week and basically chilled out. I don’t think everyone could do it (many people in my situation were having thrice-a-day panic attacks) but for me it was splendid.
JessC
Look into getting a forebearance or deferment (preferably deferment) for your loans. If you’re like me or most other young attorneys, student loan payments are one of your biggest single expenses. It will help your savings go farther if you can cut that expense out for the mean time – with the job market being what it is, I would be prepared for it to take 3-6 months to find new work.
Big hugs and best of luck!
Laura
Agree w/ the advice to go to career services. Other immediate things I would do (some of which are incredibly obvious, I know!):
1) Make sure your resume is up-to-date and ready to go if someone asks for it.
2) I would do a quick financial assessment: what are you monthly expenses, how long will your savings last w/ expenses as they are? Then, make cuts as needed (eating out, taxis, etc.).
3) Make a list of your contacts and start getting in touch!
Once you get started, it’s easier to keep moving in the right direction. Give yourself goals for each day and keep at it. Best of luck!
Divaliscious11
First- call your student loan lenders and request hardship deferrals. Right away. Second whatever unemployment you have available- go sign up! Pronto! Next, pull out your spending plan- what can you cut or downsize? Eg … Can you go to basic cable +Netflix for 7.99? (i know some will say no cable, but in some places you won’t have any reception). Reach out to anyone in your network! Finally, do you have any evening work skills, such as tending bar or waitressing? If so, try to pick up one of those gigs for living expenses income and approach legal job hunting as a full time day job. Are you using social media like Linked In? It may be helpful.
Most importantly, keep your head up. You should be looking at jobs that want a year of experience, as well as new hire experience. Good luck to you!!!!
EC
Send an e-mail to everyone you know professionally or personally. Attach your resume, explain in an unemotional way that you were laid off, and ask for help in circulating your resume and finding potential job leads. Provide your contact information in the body of the e-mail.
Pick a handful of people you know at least casually who have been employed for five years or more, and ask them to meet you for breakfast/lunch/coffee/happy hour; be honest that you are looking for help with your job search, and that you would appreciate any advice or leads they can provide. Offer to pay. Bring a copy of your resume to each meeting.
Follow up after the meeting with an e-mail thanking them and providing follow-up information regarding the advice they gave you – for instance, “I checked the job board you recommended, and have applied for three of the jobs,” or “Thank you for providing so-and-so’s name, I have contacted her and we are having lunch next week,” or “I read the article you recommended, and have drafted my 30-second commercial. I was wondering if you had any suggestions to make it stronger?” Make sure you let them know when you find new employment.
Also, I completely second Fiona’s advice to enjoy your time off. Structure your time so you don’t enjoy it TOO much, but give yourself some time each day to take a nap or watch daytime TV or sunbathe, or whatever you enjoy that you can’t do while holding down a 9-5 job.
Good luck!
K
Thanks everyone for such great advice! I feel better about moving forward now. Its been pretty jarring to suddenly not have to worry about work all the time, but its liberating to no longer value my time by the billable hour!
how long...
I know that there are plenty of threadjacks complaining about our chosen careers (specifically being an attorney) so I know I’m not the only one that feels unhappy. I’m a new grad, this past May, and am at a firm I summered with. They offered me a job early, and with the economy, I snapped it up and felt lucky to be employed. Now though, I am sure that my gig here will be one that is short-lived. The hours are decent, the pay is not good. The benefits are so-so, though there is no maternity leave, from what I can tell. I am not interested in the work I am doing and while the atmosphere here at the firm isn’t bad, I dislike it.
Question:
how long...
I got cut off:(
Question: I am in a relatively small city. My current firm is well-known in its area of practice. I would not be interested in staying even remotely in this particular practice area if I were to move on.
Being in a small city, and that this is my first job, how long do I need to stick this out before I can tell if things will improve and to save face and avoid looking like a flake and burning bridges?
Divaliscious11
A year. But if you want to change practice areas, you will need to start laying the ground work. Can you do some pro- bono in the new area?
Arachna
One year minimum. Two would be better, three would be best but one is acceptable. I think anything less than one year has to be explained, especially when its your first position.
how long...
I wouldn’t dream of leaving the firm I am in before the one year mark. That’s why I asked, because I can’t see myself sticking this out for three years. There would be no advantage – I think I would get the same kind of references from the partners here and from observing the other associates, I won’t gain significantly more useful experience by staying a whole three years. One years seems too short, though. It might just be in my mind, though. I am going to shoot for two years unless something comes up that I cannot turn down.
If I changed practice areas, it would be into an area in which I worked prior to going to law school, and all through law school. I know that if a position were to come open in that area, I would have very good references from my previous employers and they could get my foot in the door. Unfortunately, there is no pro bono work that would significantly impact my chances of getting a position in the practice area. (Sorry for being vague, just being very discreet…)
I also have the thought of doing something non-law related, but if that were to be the case, I would want to stay at this firm longer in order to make sure that is the move I want to make because it would be a big commitment to change careers entirely.
EC
My experience is that almost everyone who works for a large or mid-size law firm is miserable at least some of the time for the first 6-8 months, and after that the job either turns a corner and becomes tolerable to good or the associate leaves after they get their bonus. I’d say sweat it out until the January following your 1-year mark; the associate hiring market tends to be much better in January.
Having said that, you will be much more marketable if you can enter the market as a third-year associate than if you enter with only one year of experience. Consider whether you can transfer within the firm so you are doing other work to keep you busy and interested.
how long...
EC,
Thanks for that bit of advice. I think that I will have constantly changing feelings over the next 6 months or so. I’m a new grad, I have debt, I’m adjusting to the work lifestyle and I don’t have a lot of direction since I haven’t been in the workforce very long.
January after the one year mark seems like a good amount of time to give myself in order to be able to assess the situation with a level head. I’m not miserable, but all of the factors combined lead me to think this is not a place where I can find personal and professional growth.
Unfortunately, the firm I work for is so small that there are no other departments to which to transfer. That is part of the reason that I am not very happy here. Since the firm is small, there is no hope of changing the type of work I do, or finding some kindred spirits at the office.
I can suck it up and stick it out for another year. Time flies…
associate
I left a medium firm in a small town after a year and moved to a different practice area in a different city. I think interviewers had an easier time with a one year move when I explained it wasn’t really the job/firm, it was the practice area/city… as long as I don’t do it twice in a row of course. Personally, I think if you wait three years, you’ll have a hard time changing practice areas.
how long...
I like the idea of focusing on the practice area as a reason for switching jobs during an interview. And I agree that after three years, I might be a bit stuck because I will have only practiced one type of law post-graduation.
Did you experience any guilt associated with leaving the small town firm? I think that is what is bothering me the most about the whole thing. I know this firm has and will put a lot of time and money and effort into me because I am so new. Even the little things, like when they put my name on the door outside and sent out cards to the area firms notifying them they had a new associate at the firm… those type of things just make me cringe to think about when I consider leaving.
Lola
That’s part of the risk they take when they hire you. You have to take care of yourself first, lady. If you feel guilty when you leave, you’re putting their needs above your own.
how long...
I’ve always had that problem. Sensitive Sally. It’s part of the reason that I don’t want to stay doing what I am doing right now. The quality makes me a good friend, SO and family member… but not the best attorney. And it has always gotten in the way of me looking out for myself and my own happiness. Maybe I need some therapy in addition to a new career option.
Lola
Absolutely. Sounds like you’re a great nuturer. But what tends to make us great friends/family members/mothers/sisters/etc. doesn’t always translate to the professional world.
It has been suggested on this site a lot, but if you haven’t, you might want to read “Nice Girls Don’t Get The Corner Office” by Lois Frankel. It has some great insight on the difference between feminine qualities at home and in business.
One of the insights in the book is that men tend not to worry about the company – they put themselves first.
If you’re not looking out for yourself, no one else will. It isn’t your job to keep that firm afloat.
how long...
I completely understand that, big picture, trying to translate my nurturing personality into the career world will not help me succeed at my chosen profession, regardless of what field that may be in, because promotions and such are handed out pretty much the same way across the spectrum. I can handle working hard and altering my behavior in certain situations to be perceived properly by the higher-ups. But my problem with being an attorney – at my current firm, and maybe all of them- is that I have no desire to shut off my personality every day in order to experience daily success. Intellectually, I am well-suited to be an attorney, but not emotionally.
Lola
The book certainly helps to put things like that in perspective. I still highly recommend it.
Kady
I agree with the posters who said don’t stay longer than a year if you are thinking of changing practice groups. It’s much harder for a firm to justify paying you as a 3rd year associate if you are doing work at the level of a 1st year associate (in the new practice area).
Notinlaw
Someone using the phrase “for a certain age” above reminded me, did we ever establish when that age begins? I recall someone asking about that a week or so ago.
Anonymous
According to my research:
Once upon a time, women “of a certain age” were considered (depending upon what research you subscribe to) spinsters, over-the-hill or a group to be ignored.
I think it now merely refers to women who are generally not within an expected child bearing age, but also not old enough to be considered old. That encompasses a lot of corporettes.
AIMS
I used the phrase, and I would say that you can’t pin point it, and shouldn’t try. For some it means 40s, others it means 60s, others still 70+ . . . . A lot of it has to do with personal style, stature, etc.
MM
When I use that phrase, I’m usually thinking somewhere around … 40-45. But I agree it is variable considering how the woman carries herself. I am close enough now that I have not thrown out some quality hand-me-downs from my MIL that are “of a certain age.” I think to myself, “Wouldn’t wear this now, but it will be awesomely fashionable when I’m 45.”
middle-aged anon
I’m 38. I never thought to consider myself “a certain age,” but I’m not ruling that out as I get older. And I’m getting older FAST – I’ve already hit perimenopause with wacky menstrual cycles, my skin has changed in the past couple of months, and overall my body is going through things I didn’t expect to have to deal with until I was in my 40s. I can also feel a (for lack of a better term) social distancing between me and a couple of friends who are 35 and 33, in that I used to really enjoy having a few drinks with them after work on Friday, but now I’d just rather have a quiet evening at home.
To bring this back to the jacket, I like its cut and silhouette, and would wear it much like Kat suggests, with long black pants over heels. The only problem is that its color reminds me of cube walls!
AN
For me, it’s a moving number:) when i was 20, probably everyone over 35 was “of a certain age”. Now I’m 36, that magic number is 50!! And when I’m 50, it will probably shift to 80…haha!!
LPC
I’m a sucker for most Chanel-referent jackets.
CC
Was I the only one that was really bothered by the weekend comments about corporettes having affairs? Someone said they thought 50% of the people on the site were cheating on their husbands/sig others and I just found that so depressing. Am I that old fashioned or is cheating just the norm now? I have almost a physical reaction of disgust when I think about cheating especially on a husband or wife.
anon just for this
If it makes you feel better, I am nearly 25 and never been kissed (literally).
Will not consider sex before marriage, for religious and social reasons.
I do not judge people having extra-marital relationships, but I am perfectly at peace with my own values :)
Believe me you are not old-fashioned
Anonymous
I’m so impressed with your strength!! Not in a bad way, but honestly, I admire things that I don’t think I could do myself…
CSF
Good for you! It is all worth it in the end. My husband is the only person I have ever even kissed, held hands with, or anything else, and that will be a truly amazing thing for you to look back on.
2L NYC
Yay! I don’t believe in sex before marriage either, mainly for ideological reasons. I have been in a relationship for about 3 years (and have been kissed, lol.)
I don’t judge (well, too much) people having pre-marital sex, but I’m afraid I do judge those who have extra-marital affairs.
I think I am a bit old-fashioned, but I found many like-minded individuals in college, and even here in New York.
anon2forthis
Good for you anon! I’m 25 and also holding out for marriage, nice to see people with so many different values/opinions on Corporette =).
anon
Yup, I waited too! Totally worth it!
AIMS
I missed that discussion but I think cheating is and has always been common. I think people — esp. anonymous people on the internets — are just more honest about it now. There was a time where, for many men at least, it wasn’t even considered “cheating.” It was just what you did. Many social scientists and anthropologists say that we are not really meant to be monogamous, it’s not in our nature. I am not advocating cheating, just that sexual exclusivity is not necessarily the natural state of things. If you are interested in the subject, you should read Sex at Dawn. It’s a very thought provoking book, imo.
Anon
Not sure if anyone is reading this anymore, but the actual statistic for marital infidelity (according to the Kinsey Institute) is 20-25% of men and 10-15% of women will engage in extramarital sex at least once during their marriage.
See more: http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html
Lola
Thanks for looking this up. I was thinking of doing it myself, but wasn’t sure if I wanted to do the search on my work computer. (I’m not worried about fashion.)
I wonder if the rate for women goes up with income?
Boston atty
I absolutely agree with you CC. Of my friends, I’ve known some who’ve cheated, but they have been the very very minority. Now maybe some aren’t telling me, but I highly doubt half of them are cheating, in particular on a continued basis. It takes a lot of energy to carry on double lives like that, and I agree that this is one topic where I don’t care if people are “judgmental” of other people’s choices (as opposed to say, wearing down/poofy coats to work). This actually matters.
Lyssa
I completely agree. If declaring cheating on one’s spouse (hurting that spouse and any children that you may have, as well as putting that spouse at risk of STDs in many cases) is “judgmental”, then I really don’t care if people are judgmental. If somone wants to call me judgmental for saying that breaking promises and hurting people who trust you is wrong, well, go ahead. I won’t feel bad about being “judgmental” at all.
(Wow, there are only so many times that you can type the word “judgmental” before it starts to look really weird.)
v
There’s a difference between having a moral stance and between feeling like you have to throw it in the face of people who are struggling with difficult issues (and, in fact, are well aware that most people hold the moral stance in question). It’s like being a vegetarian and lecturing your friends about slaughterhouses every time they order a turkey sandwich or being devoutly religious and reminding your girlfriends they’re going to hell every time they they mention something that doesn’t comport with your beliefs. Yeah, you are perfectly right to have those beliefs but there’s a time and a place to be strident about them, and pearlclutching in response to someone’s heartfelt expression of their emotional difficulties is not really one of them.
CC
See I guess that is what I was bothered about in the weekend thread, it didn’t seem like there were heartfelt expressions of emotional difficulties, I read it more as “Yeah, the sex isn’t good with husband so I’m having an affair.” And I don’t think adultery is ever ok, no matter what the problem is with the husband. I think that’s what bothered me the most was I took it as a pretty casual conversation. (Of course, its the internet where intent and inflection so often get lost in the writing, and I know nothing about the personal situations of the people writing)
v
(Conversely, if someone came in and said “I think adultery is a-ok and a totally am planning on cheating on my husband just for funsies,” have at them.)
Nowhere
Agreed with AIMS that cheating is indeed common. I am not sure how common, but for example, I am pretty sure that one of my husband’s friends would have an affair with me if I ever gave him the slightest encouragement. In my firm, also, we have a lot of domestic work, and there is cheating going on 90% of the time on one or both sides of the breaking-up couple. Sad but true!
Anon in Colorado
I know cheating is pretty common. I don’t know about 50%, but its pretty darned common. Everyone wants to be happy and fulfilled and often people who are not finding fulfillment in their job or marriage look for it elsewhere. (Totally happy with current husband here, though. First husband, notsomuch.)
Lyssa
I was a little bothered, too. But, for me, the way I coped with being bothered by it was to stay far, far away from that section. I’ll bet that many other Corporettes (including you, if you didn’t comment at the time) felt the same way, but didn’t wish to get involved in the discussion- therefore, only the non-bothered people commented, and it looked like a majority were not bothered by cheating. (I hope that makes sense?)
Anyhow, I’m coming up on my 10th anivesary, and we couldn’t be happier together. I’ve known (any by known, I mostly mean in passing, not of people who I knew well) of a few marriages with affairs, but they certainly don’t seem normal or generally accepted from my point of view, and they generally have seemed to be marriages that had a lot of other problems to boot. So, I wouldn’t worry.
CC
This is very good perspective and I should keep this in mind more often for many topics. And congrats on the 10 years!
I guess I was extra surprised because it was coming from Corporettes. We talk so much about what is proper, what image we want to portray, how it immoral to lie about hours, etc, to hear similar women say oh yeah I am having an affair seemed shocking to me. Thanks for all the opinions everyone.
shrink
25 years married here … and typically the longest-lasting in any professional or social group …and worried we are a dying breed – yet thrilled to be so! Corporettes don’t have a posting on location, degrees, age, nor married status … so it’s really hard to tell the “Trend” when reading the “Threads.”
AIMS
I have a divorce attorney friend who has been married for 25+ years. She tells everyone that divorce attorneys have the happiest and longest lasting relationships.
Ballerina girl
I’m with you, CC. To each his own (as long as it’s not in my relationship), but I’ve never cheated and don’t ever expect to. I know it’s not in most people’s plans beforehand, but I do think it’s something I wouldn’t want to be a part of. I can understand how it happens, but I also think it’s far from the norm. I don’t know many people married for too long (my married friends have only been married a few years) but I don’t know many people who’ve cheated in their lifetimes, let alone in their (admittedly young) marriages.
v
Okay, I just went and looked at that thread and unless I missed a whole section (by doing a ctrl+f for “cheat”), only two people said they had had an affair – one person said they did in the aftermath of serious sexual problems with her husband that was causing her actual pain and the other person said it had made her realize that sexual attraction wasn’t everything and she should work it out for her husband. And then someone made a random “50% of people have cheated” in response to a judgmental “How can you all be so immoral!?!” post, so . . . I’m failing to see the huge crisis in American marriage or in the morals of Corporettes here.
Ann
I was disturbed by it as well, but I didn’t feel it would be appropriate to jump in and start stomping on people about it. The comment was first made in the discussion about “compromise vs. settling” when it comes to partners and I felt like the question was a good one, the poster had an honest, heartfelt question and deserved good responses without it devolving into a “OMG infidelity is so wrong you shameless harlot” discussion. Ditto with the woman who had posted about her sexual problems. I guess I missed the discussion that was just about affairs.
In any case, I believe that infidelity is wrong but I also find it hard to believe other women don’t know that many people think infidelity is wrong. It’s kind of like my grandma used to say about pointing out to people that they are overweight – they know, there’s no need to tell them just in case they missed it looking in the mirror. I think having an affair is the very worst way to attempt to solve or get over marital problems but I didn’t think that needed saying, especially in the context of the discussion.
One thing that has bothered me about some of the discussions lately is that people are so intent on making their point they have lost the ability to see when to let things go. Think about it, in a group of women talking about marriage, if one of them said “well, I am coping with my marital insufficiencies by having an affair” most likely, everyone else would politely ignore the statement and change the subject, not stand up and throw wine in the woman’s face while screeching about the sanctity of marriage. I don’t know why the discussions here need to be handled differently because we’re anonymous and on the Internet, but apparently some people don’t feel the same way.
CC
hmm I appreciate that point, and maybe I shouldn’t have brought it up again. I wanted to do a slightly different topic because I was wondering people’s thoughts on the matter. I think some have a to each his own attitude, and some like me, feel extremely strongly about it (not that I am perfect in other areas of my life in any way, shape, or form). I think this has to do with my personal experience with cheating in my family in the past. In any event, I appreciate everyone’s opinions.
nana
Ann, after reading your comments lately, I really want to be your friend. :)
Lola
Ann is brilliant. :)
RR
Me too!
Married 13 years here, and no cheating or close to cheating or considerations of cheating. And I don’t know any friends who are cheating. So I choose to believe it’s not an issue in my social circle. And if it is, well, it’s not really my business unless it’s me or my husband.
LMP
I see the point about the futility, perhaps, of pointing out “hey, you know cheating is wring, right?” but I also think that part of what I think is wrong with out culture these days is the fading of social mores. By ignoring bad behavior we tacitly approve it and then I think it becomes easier for people to do what’s “wrong” because they are more confident that they aren’t going to get called out (or judged, as some would say) for it. perhaps getting back to a place where people could say “hey, i think what you’re doing is wrong, fwiw” would make the cheaters (and other bad actors) think about the consequences of their actions a little bit more. and, in my opinion, that’s not a bad thing.
So, CC, I agree with you. I think it sucks that people treat others so badly, and I’m not afraid to be judgmental, if that’s what you want to call it, about it.
Ann
“perhaps getting back to a place where people could say “hey, i think what you’re doing is wrong, fwiw” would make the cheaters (and other bad actors) think about the consequences of their actions a little bit more. and, in my opinion, that’s not a bad thing.”
I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying and in a sense, I agree with you. I do think that a lot of bad behavior is being perpetuated in our society because people don’t take an active stand against it. However, the idea that an anonymous person on the Internet would cease having an affair because some other random anonymous person on the Internet called them out about it – independent of the real, in-her-face, tangible consequences she is already facing for participating in an affair in her real life – strikes me as being unlikely. Let’s face it, there aren’t a lot of social kudos or medals given out to unfaithful spouses, so it’s not like the cheaters aren’t already swimming against a pretty strong current – and yet they’re choosing to engage in the activity anyway. Maybe this is the one place where they feel safe coming to talk about it. I don’t have a problem with someone saying “I think infidelity is wrong” but I do have a problem with someone getting confrontational and up-in-someone’s-face about it on this blog. I don’t think it’s positive, I don’t think it adds to the general discourse, and what really comes to mind is that old adage about teaching a pig to sing. (It frustrates you and annoys the pig.) Plus, there’s this to consider: sometimes people confess deep dark secrets because they’re building up the courage to make a change. It’s a lot more likely they’ll make that change if they feel supported, vs. if they feel condemned and judged. I agree the people who posted about their affairs are hurting others and should seek to rectify their situations but that takes time and courage. I would like to help people find courage, not make them feel worse about what they’re doing. It’s OK if you have a different viewpoint, but I hope you’ll think about what I’m saying. If nothing else, in the future maybe ignoring something you don’t agree with is better than expressing harsh judgment.
Ru
Well said – I want to be friends with Ann, too!
Jas
I generally try not to get involved in other peoples’ relationships. My life is busy enough without borrowing others’ drama. If they asked my opinion it’d be one thing, or if they were advising the poster to have an affair to help her relationship, but I didn’t see any of that.
Anonymous
I don’t think you’re old fashioned. I have only had two friends who have cheated on their husband/SO. It’s not common at all in my social circle, and the friends who have done it have felt badly and ended their relationships.
Anon
I used to think that cheating was pretty awful, too. But I’ve met a number of married men lately who have made me rethink this. Imagine this scenario: you love your wife. You’ve had a child with her. She used to be interested in sex, but is no longer. You don’t blame her, but you both know that her sex drive is not what it used to be, whether because of age or childbirth or stress or weight gain or whatever, she is simply not interested anymore. You and her have both tried to work on it — you have talked, you have seen marriage counselors, you have explored new things in bed. But nothing works, and things are frequently tense at home. Your sexual urges are very strong, almost like being hungry all the time without any way of satisfying this. You figure you have 2 choices — either divorce your wife (who quit working to raise your child, and now would not be able to support herself), or have an affair. You decide that having an affair — purely physical, not emotional — would inflict the least harm on your family. You find that it in fact makes things less tense at home, keeps your family together, allows you and your wife to raise your child together and focus on him/her, and makes your wife happy as you are no longer pressuring her for intimacy. You feel badly about it, but you manage to compartmentalize that and suppress any guilt you experience.
Obviously not everyone is in this exact situation, but I’ve known a few men, and frankly I’m not sure what other advice I would give them — leave their wife? Stay and be absolutely miserable, possibly leading to a stress-filled environment for their child? Or just have an affair? Do you really know what you would do until you are in this situation?
AN
you’re not old fashioned. cheating would be a deal breaker for my marriage. (and i am happy to see i’m not the only one whose husband was their first boyfriend:)
Anon101
Threadjack-
I’m looking for a pair of black leather boots with a small (~2 in) heel that would be professional in a work environment and not too expensive ($100 range).
Any suggestions?
Lawdy
I found some at DSW on clearance, $70, black leather and 2″ heel. I wear them to work (Biglaw in the West). Good luck!
somewherecold
I just got a pair of black leather boots from the Nine West outlet that are really comfortable, although a lower heel than you are looking for. They had a lot of different boots, and not expensive–mine were on sale for $39.99 plus an additional 25% off–so I suggest checking them out if there is one nearby. And I’m currently wearing them to work :)
Confessions
I just found some at the regular 9West store for 50% off
Anon in NC
I have to attend a meeting tomorrow in DC – I will be wearing a conervative pant suit – is it acceptable to wear refined, simple black leather boots. It is very cold, I am flying in for the meeting may have to take the Metro, little space for extra items – I appreciate any advice.
Anonny
Sounds good to me!
Bonnie
Definitely. The city is pretty iced over today so consider getting those anti-slip things that you stick on the bottom of your shoes if they don’t have good treads.
KateL
I am a Fed and not a lawyer but simple black leather boots would not be out of place here in DC. Our sidewalks were a sheet of ice this morning. BTW, step carefully on Metro platforms – the 70s era tile can be slick.
Anon in NC
Thank you all!
sgb
I found some great Suade ones at Talbots.com. They may still have some Leathers, but they didn’t have my size. I paid aboutn $125
Lawgirl
Like, don’t love. Discounted price is still too high,IMHO.
L
Someone posted last week about the Boden spring catalogue. I just looked through it this past weekend, and I seriously want about 1/2 of the entire line! It is awesome, really pretty prints and nice styles. I am going to hold out until February when my shopping ban expires. :)
AIMS
I am in love with the blue polka dot dress from that catalog.
I was seriously walking to work this morning, *imagining* that it was spring & I was wearing that dress with some bright yellow shoes or something similarly boden-ish.
Legally Brunette
Me too! That dress looks gorgeous but is unfortunately a bit too short for my liking (it would go about 3 inches above the knee, even the long version).
As much as I love Boden’s colors and quality, I have returned all of the dresses that I have purchased from there. Boden seems to have a thing for empire waists, which is just not flattering on my shape. I really, really wish they would come out with dresses that have more of a natural waist placement because some of the dresses are really lovely. Luckily, they have a great no hassle return policy.
Lola
After the second “Oh, are you pregnant?” comment when wearing an empire waist, I’m done.
:(
Legally Brunette
Yes, exactly. :) Not quite the reaction I am hoping to get!
Ann
That’s happened to me too. All the empire waists got put in the Goodwill bag after it happened three times. I can take a hint, already. :)
coco
I used to live in a country where it was considered a compliment to look/be asked if you are pregnant – and we couldn’t wear clothing that accentuated the body, so it was harder to disprove. I started saying that I was having a doughnut baby. Everyone liked that.
anon-ny
I actually love their dresses! I know a lot of women dislike the empire waist but I am so short-waisted that I think that style is more flattering on me. I envy women who can belt everything because unless I wear a jacket or cardigan over it, the belted look stumpifies me – which is weird since I’m 5’9″!
Lola
I wish! I love the look of the empire waist too, but it doesn’t love me.
Anon in DC
I am glad I’m not the only one picturing my summer and spring spent in these clothes! In particular the jersey top dress caught my eye for some reason (obviously not for work). I picture myself wearing it while browsing the flea market this spring. And I’m in love with the combination of the bright pink sweater and the grey and yellow skirt they’ve put together (this would totally be appropriate for my business casual office). Ahhh, I want to buy everything in the catalog! (One of the nice things about Boden is that they don’t put out too many lines, so you can buy from any one line over time instead of feeling like you have to load up all at once. So, as much I want to get everything now, I’m trying to hold off on some things!)
Frump
Just a completely random comment that I am grumpy at some tops I want at Ann Taylor Loft that are too expensive to buy right now- well, they aren’t relatively speaking, but personally I think $50 for ATL tops is a bit too much, especially considering how much they go on sale eventually/how there are often coupon codes/etc. But of course I am convinced that with my luck, by the time I can buy them on a discount, my sizes will probably be gone. So, I’m in this obnoxious colloid flux state between ‘buy over-priced ATL tops to quell size paranoia’ or ‘stay true to my (likely overly) frugal principles and hold out for as long as possible’ until they reduce themselves down to the much lower price I think they are probably worth.
cbackson
ATL’s sales have spoiled me. I just *can’t* pay $50 for a top that I know will be marked down to $20 if I wait a month. Also, the quality really doesn’t justify the initial price tags, even if the stuff is cute.
MelD
I can’t imagine paying that much for any ATL top. Usually my size goes quickly, but I can usually find a color or two once they go on sale. Additionally, unless it’s long sleeved, I can usually wear petites if I go up a size (they are still a fine length for my long torso) so that gives me another avenue.