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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
This kind of reminds me of the fit-and-flare dress we featured on Tuesday — but it's way more affordable at $59, originally $79. I like the 3/4 sleeves, and I like the cut of the skirt — it's got sort of a flounce built into the A-line. The red is a bit much for me, and I'd probably prefer the navy, but we're picturing it because it's the one on the model. It also has a striped version. Note that it comes in sizes regular, petite, tall, and plus, and it's machine washable. 3/4 Sleeve Ponte Flounce Dress
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Sales of note for 9.10.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off your purchase
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Save up to 40% on new markdowns
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – $29 and up select styles; up to 50% off everything else
- J.Crew – Up to 50% off wear-to-work styles; extra 30% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – 40-60% off everything; extra 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – BOGO 50% everything, includes markdowns
- White House Black Market – 30% off new arrivals
Some of our latest posts here at Corporette…
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And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
In-House in Houston
Ladies, I’ve been on the hunt for a new laptop tote and finally found the right one for me. I can’t tell you how much I love this bag!! And it was only $40!! Here’s a link to it on Amazon.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZVVAQ4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
HSAL
I love this – I only wish it had an option for a cross-body strap.
Senior Attorney
Wow, thanks so much for this! I just ordered it in purple!
workingmomz
Thanks – ordering in blue
H
Very cute, but no no water bottle holder. :(
Senior Attorney
Water bottles are unprofessional anyway so that’s all good… ;)
anna
Wow – great. Nylon, so light? I am always looking for a light bag that is still sturdy and has structure. And I love how the straps look sturdy.
Thanks for this rec.
I really love when people find great, functional, stylish, affordable things that make their life easier and share them on this site.
Jules
+1
brokentoe
Just ordered in black. I think this could become the new Corpor*tt* secret sign.
Camping in the Bay Area
Where are your favorite campsites in the Bay Area? My two top priorities are low crowd, low or no bugs, and moderate or low temperatures, but views would be nice too. Willing to drive anywhere within 2-3 hours of the Bay. Thanks!
Scarlett
The only time I did this, we went to Lake Sonoma, it was really pretty and a car camping spot so bathrooms, etc. I’ve heard Kirby Cove under the GGB is nice too, but I haven’t done it as I’m not really a camper.
buffybot
I haven’t camped in the Bay Area as an adult, but as a child/teenager, I liked Samuel P Taylor, other Pt Reyes locations, Sugarloaf (in Sonoma County) and Mendocino National Forest. Other than Sugarloaf these all trend to the shady/coastal.
Mary Ann Singleton
Samuel P Taylor Park
Old House Wood Floor Q
We had the floors sanded, stained, and polyurethaned when we moved in to our house. 8 years and 2 children later, the floor in our kitchen where the bar stools are (and formerly wooden little-kid chairs were) is just wrecked. Scratched, scuffed, and missing a lot of the polyurethane.
I don’t have the time / energy to move out of the kitchen to let someone come in and refinish just that part (it’s like a 10-5 area). It’s like I’d have to pack up and vacate for a week. Could I just clean the floor and put down some waterborne (not oil-based) polyurethane just to keep it from getting worse? I did that before on a condo and it seemed to be OK. I could take a work-from-home day and do that first thing and maybe get two coats on and just go out to dinner so it has some time to try.
Anonymous
Do you never go on vacation? Get the whole kitchen floors redone the next time you’re out of town. You don’t need to move everything out of the kitchen just the furniture. Assuming you want your house to hold its value you should take proper care of it.
lost academic
Agree with this and that I imagine you could get people to move things and replace them in the process (they certainly will do so for painting and new flooring in my experience)
Anonymous
We have water based clear stain on our finished in place hardwood floors and it’s held up pretty well for the last 3 years. We have three kids but no pets. You can try it but I don’t think you’ll get good adherence of the new poly unless you remove the old first. Not sure if there is a stripping product you could use or it you would have to sand it a bit. Could you get some plastic sheeting to tape off the unaffected area of the kitchen so you don’t have to move out? You should be able to have someone refinish that area within 48 hours. With a microwave/toaster/kettle and a few meals out, it wouldn’t be that much of a hassle.
JuniorMinion
Also once you have had them redone put those felt chair pads on the bottom of everything – literally every stick of furniture in my house has them and its done wonders for keeping floors in good shape!
I wouldn’t personally attempt to polyurethane floors myself. Could you maybe do it over a slow period (xmas – new years) when you will have a lot of commitments that mean you aren’t using the kitchen?
tesyaa
+1000000 on the felt pads. You may have to try different kinds depending on your chair legs and floors.
Old House Wood Floor Q
Thanks all. My family rented forever, so my parents don’t really know (and they have some sort of ultra durable stick-on tiles in their kitchen — THIS is the beauty of linoleum!).
We had tons of dust in the cabinets, etc. when we refinished the first time (so even though it’s dustless b/c they use a vacuum, it’s really not totally dust-free), so I think we’d have to pack up everything in every cabinet (even though they drape with plastic, it still seems pretty invasive). Maybe in 8 years things are different now?
We don’t have any long family vacations planned for a while. But if we’re just kick the can down the road a bit, maybe this summer or next summer it can get knocked out.
Anonymous
When you do it, tape plastic sheeting over the doors to each cabinet and then a further plastic sheeting to block the area re-finished from the rest of the kitchen. That should keep the dust under control without having to empty/wash your whole kitchen.
Anonymous
I would put down a runner rug just to stop the damage and then have the floor properly refinished when you are ready.
Rainbow Hair
Had the same thought. It could be cute — and depending on the size it could be something you could throw in your washing machine.
Diana Barry
+1. Don’t do half of the job, just put a runner down and wait.
Floorcloths?
Does anyone use floorcloths?
I think they are an Amish (or Amish-ish looking) thing. You take a roll of linoleum, flip it over, and paint/stencil the other side. It is durable and wide enough to fit under many areas. And it will protect the floor underneath.
Floorcloths?
Actually, I don’t think that they’re linoleum (that’s rigid). I think they’re the back side of the vinyl floor covering that comes in rolls.
Old House Wood Floor Q
Does wood even make sense in a kitchen? I’m recalling in other countries where houses are really OLD, the kitchens often have terra cotta or tile floors.
My family’s kitchens (including relatives) all seem to have vinyl / linoleum / pergo (and the pergo is awful).
And I’m investing in lots of felt pads (they were always falling off of the wooden baby chairs we had or getting gunked up with baby food + crumbs = 60-grit nastiness on the bottom of the chairs)) when this is over.
mascot
I like the look of wood, especially if you have wood floors in adjoining rooms. I also feel like dropped items have a slightly better chance of not shattering on wood and a dent in wood is less noticeable than a cracked tile. Our entire first floor has wood floors so we just keep a pack of felt pads on hand. The kitchen floor has more wear than the other rooms so we will have to re-finish it at some point. We use the Bona wood polish and that glosses over some of the wear and imperfections.
Anon
I have wood floors in the kitchen of my 100+ year old house, but unlike the narrow oak planks in the “public” areas of the house, the kitchen and back staircase wood is a wider plank, softer wood. I believe the kitchen floors were intended to be covered with linoleum and the wood was a sub-floor. But it has since been uncovered and we just live with the floor not looking great. It’s easily pitted and grooved – we just think of it as “rustic” :)
Grooming Qs
What is brow care? Is it worth it? The thread yesterday on a cosmetic company’s boy brow (?) got me wondering. For reference, I have long scraggly brows but few hairs so plucking/trimming makes them really sparse. And I’m lazy. Like I forget to bleach my upper lip lazy and I feel like that should be a priority over brows. But are poorly groomed brows just as unprofessional?
In-House in Houston
I think well groomed brows just frame your eyes in a great way. I get mine threaded every 3 weeks and they have such a great shape. I also have my upper lipped threaded. It only costs $12 total, and I give a $3 tip. Takes less than 15 minutes if there’s no wait. You can always fill them in with a pencil.
espresso bean
+1
I do exactly the same routine. Love it. However, I have the kind of brows that would grow into one left unchecked, so I may benefit from shaping more than others.
Grooming Qs
Where do you get them threaded? How do you ensure they’re not overthreaded?
espresso bean
I go to a local Indian salon. I just tell them to clean them up and not go too thin, and they always do a great job. I also get my upper lip threaded. Wish I had known about that option all the years I struggled with bleaching!
Anonymous
I get them threaded as well, and keep them up in between. I think having well-groomed brows makes me look more awake, let alone polished!
In-House in Houston
+1
The local Indian salon is the best!! Some malls even have them in the middle section, not in an actual store. They are so well trained that they never over-thread. In fact, I’ve heard them tell other women not to touch them until their next visit to let them grow-out. I get my upper lip done too.
shaving question
Can I ask a serious question, what is wrong with a female carefully shaving her upper lip with a razor? It might need to be performed more frequently than threading but it’s certainly cheaper and more convenient. Is it just a cultural taboo?
Anon
I actually think this is much more common now! Just with the single blade touch up razors that are traditionally for eyebrow grooming.
Senior Attorney
I use the hilariously-named Tinkle single-blade razors (I get them at Amazon) for this. They are advertised as “eyebrow shapers” but I use them on my upper lip and I love them. Turns out it’s a whole thing — there are a million YouTube videos about it.
MargaretO
Yup they are ridiculously named but the tinkle razors work super well. I don’t see a reason not to. Threading works well but was super painful for me, waxing makes my face red, etc.
PatsyStone
+1 for Tinkle
anna
I love the Tinkle razors. I learned about them on this site. I can’t tolerate waxing and hate paying so much money for maintenance. And who has the time.
Cheap, easy, fast, no pain, skin actually feels BETTER after using. I use on upper lip, and some renegade hairs/fuzz on chin line and near ears. It’s like a mild exfoliator.
When I was a child, my Mom used a dry razor, but I believed the old wives tales and thought “Don’t do that!!! It grows back in thicker, darker etc…” Not true.
Ugh no
Because if you do it incorrectly you can get ingrown, thick hairs and then it’s much much more of an issue and a pain to get rid of. Two years of expensive electrolysis, in my case. Don’t do this.
anna
Just follow the YouTube videos. Gentle strokes down, and the correct angle, with the correct angle.
Just don’t use a regular razor, and watch the videos.
Anon
I totally do this.
anon
I think it’s totally fine and agree that it’s probably a cultural taboo because shaving one’s face is regarded as a “male” thing to do. I do it because if I don’t, I look like the yeti. I just make sure my husband isn’t around to see me do it! :). (I group it together with all the other unsexy grooming tasks that he doesn’t think I ever do.)
a milenial
agreed! i dont really do mani pedis or makeup daily but i get my brows threaded ($15 in SF, +$3 tip) and a good haircut.
Anonymous
Can we just stop? There is absolutely nothing unprofessional about wearing your eyebrows they way they grow on your face.
Tetra
+1 look at the older men in the office with wizard eyebrows.
tribble
Those wizard eyebrows are unprofessional imho. Unless you’re a wizard of course.
Same with wizard ear and nose hair.
Anonymous
My husband’s eyebrows grow in crazy ways and he gets them trimmed at the barber (along with his ear hair) and then I pluck out the really crazy ones for him in between his barber visits. So, eyebrow grooming for men is a thing, even if not all men take advantage of it.
Senior Attorney
Same in our house. I think wizard eyebrows on men look weird.
nutella
My fiance tweezes a few stray hairs right in the middle (to prevent unibrow) and has before I even met him. Just like he shaves every day and has his hair cut regularly (or if between cuts gets the back of his neck cleaned up and shaved). A lot of men groom themselves and he’s not even a very hairy guy, he just need to look polished when he is in a suit and tie every day. That also means trimming and buffing his nails and moisturizing his hands so his handshake isn’t rough and calloused. The only grooming trend I introduced him to is brushing his eyebrow hairs up and trimming the 1-2 strays that grow in a weird way. He is in a ‘white-shoe’ type profession, but even my cousin who is a cop gets his eyebrows waxed (we are hairy in my family). I see men regularly getting manicures, pedicures, and eyebrow threading/waxing/tweezing at every salon I go to. Come to think of it, the only men that come to mind with ‘wizard brows’ are the ones that also have holes in their shoes, stained ties, wrinkled shirts, and rumpled/ill-fitting suits.
Anonymous
Exactly. I brush them upwards each morning and go. Another way women must suffer where the men don’t. . .
Anonymous
Not true — I think more men start trimming the wizard hairs than you’d think as they get older. They don’t pluck, but they do trim.
And my poor H (who is part wookie) has a nose hair trimmer and is having to deal with hair growing out of his ears and on the top part of his ear (not the earring part of the ear, like the ear tufts that some owls have; also like a lynx I think).
OMG — I have never checked MY ears. Must have spouse do when I get home. UGH — maybe that is what love is, checking each other for rogue hairs.
Anonymous
Um, trimming at home versus waxing. . . not the same.
nona
My dad has my mom trim his eyebrows (for length) when they get to the point that his eyelashes get stuck in them.
Senior Attorney
I brush them up and then take my nail scissors and cut off anything that sticks out above the line I want. Hard to explain but super easy and keeps them neat. (They’re pretty sparse so I don’t worry about threading or plucking.)
Trish
Men get their eyebrows done! Even teenagers. It is a thing now.
In-House in Houston
Chill-out! No one said it was unprofessional. Some of us just like to have them well groomed. Nothing wrong with that either.
Anonymous
“But are poorly groomed brows just as unprofessional.”
Literally reacting to the words she wrote.
In-House in Houston
She was asking a question. Did you miss the question mark??
Anonymous
Nope. I just think the answer to the question is an obvious emphatic no. Your brows are not unprofessional. Idk why you’re so defensive about it. Do whatever you want with your brows because it’s your preference, but you don’t need to do anything to be professional.
In-House in Houston
I’ve moved on…. Clearly you should too.
Anonymous
Clearly you haven’t?
Anonymous
For me, brow grooming means threading them every two weeks. I use eyeshadow to darken them when I go out.
Anonymous
I might go to someone to have my eyebrows waxed once a year. Maybe. If I think about it. Otherwise I brush them (with an old toothbrush) so they look neat and leave it at that. Maybe some tweezing if there’s an out of place hair that’s bugging me.
Marshmallow
I get mine waxed monthly, just to clean up any stray hairs. I keep my natural shape. I lightly brush them with said “boy brow” every morning just to fill in any sparse areas and frame my eyes a little better, especially because lately I can’t wear eye shadow for medical reasons. Having slightly darker brows just helps define everything.
Google “glossier boy brow” if you’re curious. Benefit Gimme Brow is a similar product.
Midwest Mama
I have the opposite problem. As I’ve aged, my brows have gotten a lot thinner and more sparse. First, is there any way to thicken them or make that hair grow back? I’m guessing not. Also, what’s the best brow care to fill them in? I have a pencil, which is ok, but something easier or better would be nice. Any suggestions?
minoxidil
Minoxidil. Seriously. Google it.
Anon
Revitalash makes a brow version as well, and I’ve heard good things about pure castor oil.
As for filling in, the glossier boy brow and benefit gimme brow mentioned above are super easy one step products. If you’re having trouble with your pencil, you could also try Anastasia brow definer. It’s more of a wedge shape than a thin point and some people find it quicker.
Personally the quickest/most natural for me is a powder product (I use the NYX eyebrow powder) and a thin angled brow brush (I use Anastasia Beverly Hills again)
PatsyStone
Seconding the NYX eyebrow powder w brow brush. I’ve come back to it after trying several pricier options.
Brow help
Yes, there are several products that stimulate brow growth. Grande Lash is a good one. Anastasia’s is a weaker formula and takes longer.
Anon
I have sparse brows, but not long and scraggly. It’s not from overplucking they’ve basically been this way all my life. Every time I went to a makeup counter they’d try to sell me eyebrow products – pencil, powder, pomade, etc. But when you’re used to a light brow look on yourself, any darkening seems really extreme. I always said I felt like Groucho Marx when they penciled in my brows.
But now I wear pencil and I agree that it looks better having defined brows. I started with pencils meant for blondes even though I have medium brown hair. It was a less harsh transition. Now I’m using a light brunette pencil. I’m really careful to not use too much and go run through it with a spoolie brush after the pencil, but I’m now fully accustomed to having brows and I wouldn’t go back.
Grooming Qs
This helps thanks! My hairs are long and scraggly but are few and far between if that makes any sense. The one time I tried filling them it it was WAY too much. Next time I feel adventurous at Sephora I’ll try a blonde pencil.
Bonnie
My brows are fairly light and thin. I dye them at home about once a month and get them threaded for shape. No daily maintenance.
Help Me Understand
I’ve been getting to know a new guy. On the road to LGP, he revealed that “his therapist says he was s*xually abused as a child” and he felt it was something I should know. First, I felt sheer horror and sadness for him. Second, I was happy he is strong enough to bring it up. But third, my gut says something was off.
More background: he goes on to tell me that the abuser physically abused him for a decade. He clarified that there was no s*xual assult, just beating (broken bones, nose, etc). So I pressed a bit about why the therapist has told him he was “s*xually abused”. His answer was that he was usually in his underwear.
S*xual or physical, it’s still horrible. I get that. But there’s a big difference between the two. Does anyone have any insight into a situation like this? I’m really trying to understand.
Anonymous
It sounds like there may have been some s-abuse and your new guy hasn’t totally processed it yet. It could also be that him being in his underwear was gratifying s-ually for his abuser even if there wasn’t further contact.
Your new guy was likely telling you just in case he reacts strangely to something during LGP or pre/post LGP activities as something about those activities might be triggering for him depending on what you’re into.
Anonymous
I think the insight you need is that you aren’t a judge or jury. You aren’t supposed to be determining if he is correct about his own experience of his life. Ask him questions like “how do you see this affecting our relationship.” Don’t decide if he’s processing this correctly, decide whether they way he is behaving in your relationship works for you.
OP
That’s a great question to ask. Thank you.
nasty woman
This. I think the fact that he was beaten while in his underwear is pretty obviously s*xual, even if it doesn’t “present” as what we typically think of a s*xual assault (penetration, unwanted g*nital contact). In fact, there is a school of thought that spanking is s*xually abuse, even though most people describe that as physical abuse. The fact that he wasn’t clothed likely increased his feelings of vulnerability, and he probably still feels especially vulnerable naked (hence he’s telling you this pre-LGP). There are myriad ways that this could be connected to s*xuality for both him and his abuser. Regardless, there isn’t a bright line between physical and s*xual abuse. Don’t try to draw one for him. It’s not your call to make whether the abuse was sufficiently s*xual to be called s*xual abuse or whether what he experienced wasn’t as bad because it wasn’t physical.
Anonymous
This is not going to be a popular opinion, but I would suggest you get out. It sounds like you think something is off and he is a new guy…no need to double down on this one.
Anonymous
Same. I’m sure people will judge me for this, but statistically many abuse victims become abusers. I would be extremely reluctant to have children with someone who had been abused as a child.
OP
My gut instinct is to run. I lean towards being co-dependant so I know this is bad for me, in many, many ways.
Anonymous
Then leave. Dating is not charity work. You don’t have to be in a relationship you know is bad for you in many many ways.
Anon
Get out now. This is a red flag and is not worth it. He can work with his therapist on his issues and past and you do not need to be there for it, nor should you be. Listen to your gut, PLEASE.
Sarabeth
I think you should end it if you are not comfortable dealing with this, but not because he’s likely to become an abuser. He’s in therapy, can acknowledge the abuse in his past – he seems to be doing all the right things. But he deserves better than to be in a relationship with someone who can’t deal with his abuse.
Also, as to whether this was s*xual abuse – frankly, I don’t see why this needs to matter to you? He may not be able to articulate all of his abuse, he may have gaps in his memory (which could be why he is saying that his therapist says he was s*xually abused – his therapist may be interpreting things that point to this form of abuse even if he doesn’t directly remember it), he may have been s*xually abused in ways that aren’t as easily recognizable (s*xual humiliation, including forced nudity, etc). Your investment in determining whether this is “real” is not healthy.
Anonymous
HE deserves better than “someone who can’t deal with his abuse”?!
Wow. Just wow. I hope you don’t have daughters who you give this kind of crap advice to.
Sarabeth
I have both a daughter and a son, and professional training in the field of counseling for victims of sexual abuse. Men who are victims of sexual abuse deserve the same compassion as women who are in that position. If either of my children were in the position of the OP’s boyfriend, I would tell them to break it off and look for a partner who can handle the fact that they have been abused. It is retraumatizing for abuse victims to have to litigate whether their abuse was real in the context of an intimate relationship. If OP feels the need to do that, she needs not to date people who have been abused.
Are you literally misreading my statement here? “Can’t deal with his abuse” = “Can’t deal with the fact that he has been abused.” The only abuse being discussed on this thread is the abuse of which the OP’s boyfriend was the victim.
Anonymous
Are you misreading my question?
If your daughter was in OP’s position, you would tell her that her boyfriend “deserves better” than to date her? Having compassion for abuse victims doesn’t mean we need to demonize others, such as OP. She says she has codependency issues. Maybe have some compassion for the person who is in front of us right this minute, and get off your high horse.
Anon
RUN!
Anonymous
What if the abused person was female?
[My guy says female victims often self-destruct and hurt themselves as survivors but we feel like male victims do that and also perpetuate the cycle. I don’t know why that is. I worked in a criminal court for a while and am a survivor myself (as a school-aged child, distant family acquaintance, not ongoing).]
Anonymous
I thought about that angle before posting (10:08) and I would still answer the same. My main concern is that OP thinks something is off with his presentation…which makes me think this trauma is not healed. OP could of course choose to stick around help/observe the healing process, (as a male OP could with a female abuse victim) but he is new and I don’t think she has any obligation to stick around unless she wants to. I think she should trust her instincts.
Anonymous
GUT
My guy says stuff about sports and giant trucks. My gut is talking above. UGH.
cbackson
I’m sure that the victims of s*xual abuse on this board would love to hear that you think they’re all pedophiles in waiting.
Stats are hard to come by, but what’s out there suggests that about 10-12% of male victims of child s*xual abuse go one to abuse others as adults – and who comprises that 10-12% is not random; it depends a great deal on other contributing factors around the family situation and the victim’s experience. The false perception that victims are going to grow up to become abusers is incredibly damaging to victims, and you’re not helping by contributing to it.
There is a significant likelihood that a perpetrator was a victim of abuse as a child (something like 30-45%, depending on gender and the specific study), but studies demonstrate the the majority of offenders were not childhood victims.
Anonymous
That’s not what she said. Reading comp fail (and from someone with all those accolades! shocking!)
cbackson
You, or the other brave anonymous above, said that statistically many victims grow up to be abusers. Unless you count 1 in 10 as many, that’s not true – and the perception that being a victim means you’ll grow up to abuse others is damaging to victims. The OP doesn’t have to date this guy, but she shouldn’t base a decision on inaccurate statements about the relationship between victimization and subsequent abuse.
Anon
This forum is for women. Women who have been sexually abused as children are FAR less likely to grow up into abusers themselves; the vast majority of all sexual violence is committed by males. Please do not guilt the OP into sticking around to experience potential male violence when she has said her gut is telling her to leave.
Anonymous
cbackson, you snarkily stated “. . . you think they’re all pedophiles in waiting.” That is literally not what she said. To iterate: reading comp fail. Take your sarcasm/hyperbole elsewhere.
cbackson
I don’t care if the OP dates him or not, but I assume she’s enough of a grown-up to handle accurate statistics (and note that she’s not the one raising this idea here…it’s all of the folks above who aren’t willing to put their names to their statements). Children who are victims of SA deserve not to be tarred with a stigma derived from inaccurate perceptions about this risk. The fact that this is a forum for women doesn’t mean it’s okay to provide inaccurate information about what happens to male victims. What’s more, you’re assuming that being a victim of SA means that this guy is more likely to commit violence against the OP – I’ve never seen that statistical connection made.
FWIW, I agree completely that dating isn’t charity. The OP seems uncomfortable dating this guy and honestly, she should listen to that discomfort. That discomfort provides cues our conscious mind doesn’t. But I’m a survivor of childhood SA, and I’m not comfortable, at all, with the statements above (not made by the OP) going unchallenged.
Miss
That is completely untrue and a damaging belief to hold.
Shopaholic
I would suggest looking into some Dan Savage – I know he answered a question about this on his podcast within the last month or two and he’s probably touched on this in his column as well. He had some insight that I thought was interesting but I don’t specifically recall the details right now.
Dog Mom
I am at my wit’s end with my rescue dog. Can you recommend a training methodology I can seek out?
I got him when he was 6 months old and he’s a year now. This dog is stubborn, willful, smart, and literally does not give two sh1ts what you want him to do. Even my boyfriend who has some experience training hunting dogs is exasperated with him. Down? Off? No? Stop? Only if he wants to. We’ve been working on sit for 6 months and he still won’t do it. He’s not food motivated in the least, so it’s like, “Oh, cheese? Chicken? Eh, ok, thanks.” He also doesn’t seem to care about praise. He’s the canine embodiment of “I do what I want.”
He’s a coonhound, and based on what I know of his background, I think his parents were actual hunting dogs, not pets. I live in northern Virginia, where everything for dogs is cutesy and cuddly and that style does not fly with my dog. Is there a training methodology I should seek out to get through to this dog? Particular attributes of a trainer?
I need to get a handle on him before he gets much older and it’s impossible.
Anonymous
If you haven’t tried anything, why not just sign up for puppy/intro dog training at your local dog place.
Jen
It might be beyond Dog 101 but if you haven’t done this yet, start here. They’ll recommend additional training (likely 1:1) as appropriate.
In-House in Houston
Ugh. So sorry about that. I don’t have any training to suggest, but one thing that worked for me with a very stubborn dog is loud noises. I have an empty water bottle with about 4 pennies in it (small rocks would work too) and I shake it like crazy at bad behavior. The noise is so loud and it scares the crap out of my dog. My dog used to bark at dogs on TV. I keep the bottle on the end table and if I just reach for it, he stops. It’s really working!!! Bless you for rescuing!!
Murzle
I second the rec for training. We adopted a rescue with issues and training worked wonders. A few comments that might help with your current methods:
-Just because your dog isn’t interested in food previously doesn’t mean he isn’t food motivated. Our trainer taught us that treats have different values to dogs, and the key to getting him to do something he doesn’t want to do is to use really high value treats. So sometimes I can get away with the Zukes training treats, but when we’re teaching him something new, I’ve gotta use the good stuff. For our dog, it’s hot dog. For one of the other dogs in our puppy training class, it was Feta cheese (still cracks me up). Try to figure out what food(s) your dog likes more than others and treat it as a special surprise.
-Use a clicker for training. It helps mark where the “good” behavior was that they’re getting a treat for.
-I’d break down the things you want you dog to learn into do’s and don’ts. For the do’s, throw a party the first time your dog does it correctly. My SO and I aren’t baby talkers and weren’t into singing our dog’s praises excessively, but we learned quickly how much our dog benefits from it. Our recent challenge has been “go to bed” to get him to lay on his bed. The first time he did it, we both dropped what we were doing in the kitchen and ran over, grabbing a handful of treats and giving him tons of rubs. You’ve got to make sure your dog knows he did something you liked, and for dogs, sometimes that requires excessive praise.
For the don’ts, like off or down, I would recommend negative training so your dog knows you don’t like it. For us, we used a spray bottle of water with a firm “NO.” He learned that “no” has a negative association after a few sprays in the face (on mist! so a gentle punishment). Now he responds to “no” from a different room (we can recognize the sound of him putting his paws on the cabinets and sniffing the counter from across the apartment).
-Lastly, I’d recommend you try to have him hang around a well behaved dog. Our dog is really high stress and whines a ton, but whenever he hangs out with one of our friend’s mellow, obedient dog, he comes back more chill and communicative. For example, he used to just whine when he wanted to cuddle, and we struggled to differentiate that whine between his potty whine. Now, he comes up and rests his head on your leg and looks up at you (way cuter). That’s the mellow dog’s M.O., and our dog just picked it up after seeing it work for the other dog. I think they learn by example quite easily.
Hope that helps!
Anonymous
If you want it to be louder, use a soda can with pennies in it. Very jarring and very effective.
Anonymous
Check out Old Towne School for Dogs if Old Town is convenient. We fostered a similar dog (coonhound, very aloof, not food motivated, dominance issues) and could not do anything for him. A trainer there spent 20 minutes with him at a consult and had him completely under a spell, it was amazing. They are not inexpensive, but it seemed like they would have been great (he ended up getting rehomed before we actually started classes with them). They are not entirely positive reinforcement like many of the dog training classes in NOVA, which many people may disagree with, FWIW.
ann
I use a water bottle. My dog is also incredibly stubborn but smart so if he sees me reach for the bottle he stops. He KNOWS and that is the most frustrating thing.
Anony
Is there any way you could get him some “work” to do? If he comes from a line of working/hunting dogs, he may be the type who responds best to having a job. Maybe find a trainer who works with working dogs rather than pets?
Scent dogs like coonhounds are bred to be obsessed with tracking smells, to the exclusion of any distraction or other stimuli. They will “track” even if they’ve never been formally trained to do so. Maybe part of his ignoring you is getting fixated on smells or scent.
Lastly, a conversation I had with a friend of mine a year or so ago comes to mind: a friend of mine had a similarly smart, problematic rescue dog. She had a very affectionate relationship with the dog but when the dog got over-excited, he wouldn’t listen to her at all. But the dog always listened to her husband. Once she told me, “I’m this dog’s mom. But Steve is his commanding officer.” Sounds like your dog might respond better to a boss than a mom.
Blonde Lawyer
See if there are any pitbull rehabilitation places around you. These places take dogs that were in fighting rings and re-train them so they can be re-homed. They are used to the difficult cases. Alternatively, what about places that train working dogs like for hunting, agility, service that sort of thing. They would have different tactics I would assume and at least for those that train hunting dogs, experience with coon hounds. I have a plott hound so I know how independent they can be.
One last idea, any chance your dog is toy motivated? Often hunting/service dogs get a minute with their favorite toy as a reward. I have a fenced in yard and to get my dog to come inside (even though she went through training and had previously qualified for canine good citizen) I have to open my sliding door, show her the toy, and then toss it into the house for her to chase. I give her 30 seconds to a minute with it and then the toy gets put away. It’s a great opportunity to use the types of toys she would normally destroy like soft ones. You could use that as the reward for sit. When you want her off something you can show her the toy, call her off, and then give it to her for a few seconds.
fake coffee snob
The old adage is “if he wasn’t food motivated, he’d be dead.” Of course some dogs are more and less motivated but I find they can learn – I REALLY struggled to find the right treats for my guy at first but once he learned that behavior can earn treats, he started working really hard and now I just train with kibble!
Training has evolved a LOT with a better understanding of dog cognition in the last 10ish years so I’d be hesitant to take advice from anyone whose knowledge of training techniques was formed longer ago than that. To learn modern training, there are a lot of good books to try – I like Pat McConnell and Kathy Sdao. Private trainers are amazing to give you feedback on your technique and teach you to communicate with the dog better but they are not all created equal – definitely do some research to find someone with up-to-date knowledge.
For the record, any training that focuses on “no”, is, imo, not great. Not because of some warm and fuzzy reason to bond with positive reinforcement (although personally I dig that too) but because the cardinal rule of dog training is that each word should only mean ONE thing and “do nothing” isn’t actually really a specific thing that dogs understand well. Instead, training should be asking them to do something specific (like sit, or drop it, or show calmness on command). So I’d take that as a barometer of effectiveness, personally.
This stuff gets controversial and these are all my personal opinions…but I feel good about them, personally. I have a REALLY challenging, fear-aggressive rescue and if we’d gone any farther in the old-fashioned, punishment-based training I don’t think he’d be alive today. With modern positive reinforcement training (coupled with tools like anxiety medication), though, we actually have a pretty good thing going and he’s learned so incredibly much.
Anon for this
Just to give you another perspective — my ex-husband and I adopted a coonhound with all of the characteristics you’re describing. He got slightly better after hours and hours of training (my ex-h was a full-time student at the time and put a ton of time into training), obedience school, etc. Although the dog slightly improved, he never really cared what we wanted him to do, which also made it hard to really bond with him. I ultimately came to the conclusion that that breed just isn’t meant to be a pet. The difficulties with the dog caused a lot of problems in the marriage, and my ex-h ultimately took the dog with him in the divorce. Don’t feel bad if you end up deciding to re-home the dog. I’m convinced coonhounds are happiest on a farm running around smelling things all day.
PatsyStone
Another anecdote- My dog (now 10) was AWFUL as a young dog. We went to training, read books, I clicked, etc. At 1 he was over 120lbs, eating couches and tearing through fences. My mom paid for him to go to a two week training camp for close to $2k. When I picked him up they confirmed he was a “Special Case” and even if I kept up the training rigidly, he was never really going to be super obedient, it’s not his nature. And they were right! I was lucky I was single and living alone when he was young because it would have put a lot of stress on the relationship.
Now he’s an old man and is much more chill- he still doesn’t listen. My husband and I have an ongoing bet that if he ever deigns to “shake” for him, I’ll give him $1000. I still love the darn dog though.
I also found that it shifted my mindset for when I had a kid. I’ve come to really accept that people/dogs/beings are just who they are and all the effort in the world may not change them, and more likely will drive you both crazy.
Good luck, but you are not a failure if you need to re-home.
Coonhound Parent
I’m sorry you had such a bad experience with the hound. They can be really difficult dogs, but I can attest that a happy small city/suburb hound (purebred, so nothing else to attribute this to) can exist. While re-homing the dog might work for OP as well if things just aren’t working out, if you’re willing to try one last thing, the Off-Lease K9 board and train can help make miracles happen. It’s certainly not cheap, but the investment pays off.
Anon
Start with exercise- lots of it. Now would be a really good time to take up hiking as a hobby. Don’t even attempt a training session until you’ve taken the edge off with exercise. You won’t get anywhere if he’s too wound up to focus.
Read everything you can get your hands on by Patricia McConnell, starting with The Other End of the Leash.
Figure out what you want him to learn. For example, I can live without “sit” but will not under any circumstances permit a dog to rush the door. They must learn to wait quietly to go outside.
You may need some help with how to shape the behaviors you want. Hounds tend to need to do things on their terms. How do you get him to do what *you* want him to do in a way that makes sense to him? That’s what a good trainer helps you figure out. They train you to train your dog.
Find a group that does tracking or nosework. It’ll help you form a bond with your pup and give him a chance to do what he was born to do. I’m not in your neck of the woods, but this is one outfit that looks like it could be promising: http://pawsplustraining.com/id81.html
Miss
Great suggestions! If you have a high energy dog or a working dog, you can’t train them while they have so much pent up energy. Dog training is partly for the owner. You can’t train a high energy dog to be calm and low energy. But you can find positive ways to redirect their energy and have a well trained dog.
Coonhound Parent
Off-Leash K9 Training board and train. Highly highly highly recommend. Unfortunately the same smarts that make them INCREDIBLY dogs (when trained), make them jerks when not trained. I’ve had success with click and treat (positive reinforcement), but the saying is right, “When the nose is on, the ears are off.”
It’s possible to address and fix these issues, but these aren’t your Petco puppy class woes. Please give your hound a chance–the investment is worth it and good, well-behaved hounds are the sweetest most incredible partners.
Coonhound Parent
Also wanted to add to not feel bad if some of the things people are listing don’t work or haven’t worked for your dog. Coonhound breeds are very particular dogs and their instincts are widely different from most dogs people have as pets–training a retriever or a pug looks significantly different than a Treeing Walker Coonhound that is bred to literally climb trees looking for prey.
I do truly believe they can be incredible pets, but it requires the patience of a saint and professional help that works.
Once you’ve done the training, confidence and bond-building can be further developed through dog sports. Things like agility and nosework/tracking are wonderful avenues for their instincts. The training doesn’t try to change them, but optimizes their brilliance and innate instinct they have to please their owner (I know that sounds bizarre right now when dog is being a massive jerk, but you can see this when you watch any videos of a hunter and his/her hound).
Anonymous
Breed is so important. My extended family had coonhounds, pointers and Great Danes but used them as hunting dogs. I am not sure how dogs like that can ever be calm house pets that do well being confined inside; they were not bred for that. They were bred to roam across acres and acres of land flushing game. My uncles, cousins, etc. were the folks who were out every weekend during hunting season, hunting game birds, deer, etc. Their dogs would sometimes run 15 miles out and back in a day.
I’m all for rescue dogs – every one of my dogs has been a rescue – but you have to know what you’re getting into. I love Great Danes, but there is no way my small, old house can accommodate one. I love Labrador retrievers, but we are not outdoorsy and we work a lot of hours, and could not keep one exercised the way we’d need to. We are on our third dog and we finally figured out that for our house, lifestyle, and preferences, a low-energy dog is the way to go. We found a basset hound mix and she’s the right combination of loving, energetic and chill for us. Breed research is incredibly important even when you adopt a rescue dog.
Dog Mom
Thanks so much to everyone for their advice, and especially you, Coonhound Parent. I’ve had other dogs before and this one’s aloofness coupled with his intelligence have made him a different challenge.
Someone above said they think coonhounds are happiest running through fields with their noses down, and I’ve definitely noticed that. He does NOT care for suburban living at all. But take him to the country where he can watch deer and watch him come alive. It makes me a little frustrated with the rescue – yes, he was about to be euthanized in his rural shelter, but no amount of puppy daycare and leashed, neighborhood walks is going to make this dog happy in a suburban environment. He’s a country dog through and through and maybe shouldn’t have been brought to this area.
Interestingly, Coonhound Parent, I had JUST found K9 training right before I saw your post. At this point, I’m willing to spend some money to try to work with him. He’s got a good temperament (when he’s not being a jerk), so I believe he’s worth it. Thanks again for your input!!
Coonhound Parent
I should have added that I’ve had my pup since she was 8-weeks and so she’s always been a suburban hound. She does not come from a hunting line, so while her nose is good, she’s never treed anything or done more than chase the birds in the yard. I don’t doubt that your pup’s past life had him outside running and trailing things and you mentioned that his parents were likely bred to hunt. A lot of hunting dogs wind up in rescue situations because they’re often treated as exclusively outdoor dogs (no shelter/protection), starved to prepare for the hunt (often in very misguided ways), and housed with a ton of other hounds.
It might be worthwhile to research all the board and train programs near you. Some are two-weeks others extend up to 6 months (that’s for full hunting training). A good instructor will work with you to meet everyone’s expectations. I know friends who sent their pups off from 5-week obedience programs that included agility training, so the family was able to plug the pup back in to local classes and it was a positive experience for everyone.
The require a lot of attention and exercise, but when well-trained, indoor hounds can really be sweet dogs (they’re surprisingly sensitive).
Lastly, I’d encourage you to join some Facebook groups for your particular hound breed. That’s been very helpful in getting some ideas for everything from training to ear cleaning tips.
I wish you and your coonie many happy years ahead!
Anonymous
Those of you with granite counters, do you seal them regularly? A friend was horrified that I haven’t done it since installing them in our kitchen two years ago, but our contractor didn’t say anything about needing to.
Anonymous
Um, was I supposed to do this?
In-House in Houston
I’ve never done it either. Bought the house 5+ years ago and I just clean the granite with stuff I buy at the grocery store.
Anonymous
This is why we’re going with quartz. As soon as I heard granite needed maintenance, I was like, just no. Not sure on the maintenance rules. Maybe your builders website might have info? Or Home Depot etc?
OP
That’s the thing though – I had never heard that granite needed maintenance. I specifically told our contractor I wanted something durable and low maintenance and he recommended granite and never said anything about sealing it. I’ll email him I guess, but I was just kind of shocked to hear that from this friend and wondered if it was something everyone knew but me, because I’ve always thought of granite as low maintenance.
Anonymous
PS I got quartz counters that look just like marble. I adore them. No maintenance at all 18 months in.
Anonymous
Sorry but your fake marble counter tops are not fooling anyone who’s ever seen real marble. Quartz can be lovely, but I hate the idea of trying to imitate something else. It’s like a knock-off designer handbag.
Another anonymous
I like the look of marble countertops and would love to have them, but they wouldn’t do for my messy cooking style. Mild acids can mess up marble, and quartz provides a distinct advantage over marble for, best I can tell, most things except making pastry. So “fake” marble countertops that are actually quartz are one of the instances where I would hands-down go for “fake” over “real”.
But don’t get me started on the substitution of moissanite for diamond or I’ll be making the knock-off designer handbag argument or equivalent.
Rude
Rude
anna
What a sad, judgmental life you must lead….
Anonymous
The ones I got are as close to the real thing as exists (the brand was highly recommended by progressional designers) and for the trade offs 100% worth it. Same cost.
Normally i agree with you.
Anon
OMG, if you are judging somebody’s counter tops there is something seriously wrong with your life.
Anonymous
Quartz isn’t supposed to be fake marble, it’s just a similar look to people who like the look of marble. Actual marble is a pretty poor surface to use as a countertop and I’ve heard nothing but terrible things about it.
Anonymous
OMG. I can’t believe people actually spend their lives thinking about things like quartz vs. marble countertops. What an empty life you must lead.
Anonymous
What did you go with? I’ve been having the marble v. quartz debate with myself for month but haven’t found a quartz with a marble pattern that I like yet.
Anonymous
I’m the original “love quartz” poster that searched all over – we went with this one. There’s a more heavily veined version from the same brand called Rococo too.
http://www.lgviaterausa.com/products/289/187
Ariadne
I have marble countertops, and while they look great, every spill ( looking at you lemon, vinegar, salads…) shows if you don’t clean it right away. We bought a sealer at Home Depot, and it helps, but it still drives my husband nuts every time one of us spills….even pesto, which I dripped on the marble, cleaned with a special marble cleaner right away (also from Home Depot), and then wiped…it still left a small stain.
I believe you can call someone who sands and re- surfaces stone ( and marble I our case). We had this person come once, and he sanded and polished, and shined things up a bit. I just learn to live with the small splotches, that mostly show up in strong light. Overall though, the marble still looks good…if you don’t look too closely and lean in to see where the acids left a slight burn which ate the marble, and left it duller;)
Eliza
We used marble in on our master bath vanity and it’s fabulous. If you go with a honed finish, any etching you get is harder to see. That said, if you want a pristine surface forever, marble is not a great fit. We love ours because it isn’t perfect, and once those initial etched spots start to blend in with each other, the patina is really lovely. Look at it like this: marble has been used for flooring forever, and those antique marble counters in Paris look amazing.
H
We have quartz and it also needs sealing, but only once every 5 years. Also, sealing isn’t a huge deal; it is literally wiping a seal in the counter like you wipe it down with a sponge. I was turned off by natural stone because if this but the process is so simple, it shouldn’t scare you off.
Anon
Good to know. I have quartz countertops installed in 2008 and have never sealed them!
Fortunately my quartz is not trying to imitate marble *clutches pearls *
Anonymous
No, I’ve never sealed mine and they still look like new 15 years later. I think if you have a porous slab that is light colored, it might darken around a sink or another spot that gets water a lot. I’d seal in that case.
Anonymous
I moved into an older house that has them from the mid-90s? I have cleaned them with windex / soap and water. They seem to be OK. They are black and sparkly (not what I would have picked but whatever). We are pretty brutal on them.
sealant
I did it once (about 6 months after installation and initial sealing) but the sealant is extremely toxic and I felt nervous working with it… my counters are probably a little darkened in places around the sink that are often wet, but it’s not a solid or light color so it’s barely noticeable to me and wouldn’t be noticed by any casual observer.
Anon
I had mine permanently sealed. It’s been a thing for a number of years now that you can get them permanently sealed and never have to deal with it.
Miss
I’ve never resealed my granite counters. If you’re worried you can test it by pouring a bit of water on the counter. If it soaks in, you need to reseal. If it heads up you’re fine.
Miss
*beads up
pretzel addict
I could use some help curbing my late-night carb eating. At work I’m all Siggi’s yogurt and homemade bran muffins for breakfast, big healthy salad with protein for lunch, healthy snacks of veggies and hummus. Then I become ravenous around 4:30 and feel like I can never get full, so I usually eat a snack that’s more dinner-sized. And then I always want a couple of pretzels before bed, and that has been turning into half the bag.
How can I stop this? The only unhealthy foods in my house are pretzels and peanut butter, which I consider kind of essential to have around, but they are becoming my downfall.
Anonymous
I’d start by eating carbs at lunch, as a planned part of your day. And then see if you still need that 4:30 snack, or if you could try just having a hard boiled egg instead. Idk why you need to have pretzels in your house- just get rid of them. Also brush your teeth right after dinner.
Anonymous
I eat Uncle Kracker high-fiber, no-sugar crackers (Pumpkin Seed Cheddar are the best!) with some cheese. I also keep Ezekiel bread and English muffins around (no sugar added). Love these with some natural peanut butter. Would these help?
Anonymous
Embrace eating a small meal at 4:30. Eat something healthy that is not pretzels. There’s nothing wrong with eating when you’re hungry.
Batgirl
+1!
Anonymous
This. I am usually starving at 4:30 and I work till 6, dinner’s at 7 at our house. But pretzels (all carbs, really) are just big triggers for me to keep eating. So I have turkey-and-cheese rollups, or some leftover cold chicken breast, or half a cup of cottage cheese, or just a spoonful of peanut butter to tide me over till dinner, and it works fine.
If you’re legitimately hungry, and not bored, sad, nervous, upset, etc. you need to eat something. But the only thing that works for me with snacks is eating protein with minimal or no carbs. Carbs turn me into a remorseless eating machine. I eat carbs with meals but never between meals and it works okay.
JuniorMinion
Try to up your fat / protein content during the day. Maybe try to add some avocado to your salad / snack on nuts and full fat greek yogurt in lieu of hummus. If this doesn’t work examine your sugar content – there is a lot of hidden sugar out there – hummus and flavored yogurts are bit stealth culprits. Sometimes sugar can up your hunger reflex.
If you are getting to pre bedtime and still starving you may not be getting enough nutrition throughout the day. If you end up still hungry maybe try reaching for some pre portioned almonds or something that gets you that crunchy / snacky feel without being such an empty calorie bomb like pretzels.
PS – I eat 5-6 times a day. It seemed ridiculous at the outset but I am finally not craving more food at 10 PM
Anonymous
+1 – I have a bag of roasted peanuts in my house and my office for just this purpose. I get the salt and crunch, but without the processed flour. Usually a small handful does the trick. FIWI, Carbs aren’t a bad thing (there’s a reason humans have been eating them for 200,000 years!), but perhaps you could swap your pretzels for something less processed.
JuniorMinion
This is a good point! I definitely eat my share of carbs, I just try to keep them more complex and find they work best as a complement to protein / fats for me personally – If i just eat crackers as a snack I am hungry 30 mins later…
Jax
This.
Fat keeps you full. Cheese, nuts, coffee with real cream (or Bullet Proof coffee) are things I snack on with my low carb diet. Sometimes a cup of coffee is enough to get through to the next meal.
Since you know coming home after work is your worst snacking time, maybe just embrace it? Smear 2 celery stalks with peanut butter and think of it as an appetizer. Apples and peanut butter. Plain yogurt with some almonds and shredded coconut. A handful of cheese cubes. Veggie tray you snack on all week after work.
For me, being unprepared means I’ll walk in the door and head straight for a bag of chips or something “easy”. I’m not thinking about what else would be a better choice, I’m just starving and reaching for what’s known. Preparing better options and just expecting the craving helps me the most.
January
Do you eat dinner after your 4:30 snack-meal? Because that could explain why you’re hungry by the time you get home.
anna
I’m a little confused by your post. So, you eat dinner too, in addition to your 4:30 snack/small dinnerish thing?
When I am ravenous at 4:30, I eat a small handful of almonds and drink a large glass of water. If still can’t wait, a piece of string cheese (just easy to have at hand and eat fast).
And then if that is a pattern, I try to eat my nut snack earlier in the afternoon so I’m not so ravenous.
I don’t keep salty snacks in my house. If I have a salty/crutchy urge at night, I have unpopped popcorn that I can make on the stove. Not in a bag/microwave. Or a few more nuts if I’m too lazy to pop. Or a spoon full of peanut butter.
Duckles
I’m the same way and know it’s because late in the day I need a reward/break. Also, I’m likely overcaffeinated and crave carbs to soak it up. Only things that work for me are drinking water to mellow the caffeine, taking a real break if you can, and not keeping any foods I wouldn’t be ok binge eating in the house.
Why do I feel this way?
Help me work through my feelings on this…
DH got accepted into a program with a guaranteed salary increase of $50,000 when he gets out. Its a 4 year program, so it is a big commitment. We live in an area with great universities and the program is local. I have a high enough salary that I can support us and our toddler while he is in school. He was very eager to pursue this degree – did all the pre-reqs and entrance exams and was excited about it. Now that he has been accepted, he’s not sure whether he wants to go. He feels like he wants to settle down now (he is 33, I am 30), buy a home, and support his parents more. He also recently had a big promotion and doesn’t want to give up his salary for 4 years (no part time option for the degree) and change his career when he is “comfortable.” Up until we had a conversation yesterday, I was 100% behind whatever decision he decided to make – but I thought that decision would have to do more with whether or not he wanted to do X work when he was finished with his degree. If he decided he didn’t like doing X work, I wouldn’t want him to go through the 4 year process and commit himself to a career he didn’t like.
I make 2/3 of our pay and he makes 1/3 and it has never been a problem in our marriage. BUT during our conversation yesterday when he seemed to be more focused on wanting to be comfortable himself, not wanting to put in tough hours at school, wanting to financially support his parents more, live in a bigger home now that he has reached a comfortable salary – I don’t know, it kind of made me feel, resentful? For the first time in my marriage, I really felt resentful for having went to lawschool, worked in biglaw, and providing for us, when it seemed like now his primary focus is settling down at 33 and supporting his parents? I don’t know why I felt resentful, nothing has changed in our marriage other than the acceptance letter. He has always worked hard and he is not lazy, so it’s not like some seething resentment I have been holding on to. We’ve even had conversations before about this degree and in the last couple of months the focus was more on pursuing the career he has now and building up our investments, but based on our conversation last night, it seems like the deciding factor has more to do with him thinking we are financially comfortable so he doesn’t feel the need to pursue anything additional. I know it’s a reasonable position, so I don’t know why I am still feeling resentful for working longer hours than him and the fact that he feels very comfortable despite being able to be provide fully for our family in case I lose my job or need to take a longer maternity leave for the next kid.
I did not like the feeling I got last night, and I want to work through it before having another conversation. I feel like a terrible sexist and I really can’t figure out why this event triggered this feeling after never having felt this way during our entire marriage?
Anonymous
I honestly can’t fathom how you decided that “I don’t want to give up my salary entirely for 4 years” is remotely equivalent to “my sugarmama has us covered I don’t need to try.” At all. Even a little bit. He doesn’t want to let you carry the whole weight of the family, boy wants to work at his job!
And what on earth kind of 4 year program “guarantees” a 50k salary increase? That’s not a real thing surely?
Anonymous
This is what caught me. I first read “guaranteed” 50K as he has a current employer who will pay for his schooling and guarantee a job with X salary on graduation. Just assuming that a certain field pays more is not a guarantee AT ALL – see everyone who graduated from law school in 2008. Unless he has a job in hand at a specific salary, it’s a possibility of earning 50K more, not a guarantee.
Taking 4 years without salary is a big decision if there is no guarantee on the other side. Does it mean putting off your next kid for 4 years? You could be buying additional financial troubles if you run into infertility issues with an older maternal age.
Whether or not he takes this opportunity should be unrelated to the length of your mat leave. You can find money in other areas, skip a year of retirement savings etc, put off buying a house by a year etc.
espresso bean
I think the way you are feeling makes perfect sense. You feel like you are being asked (indirectly) to take on more than your share of the burden for providing for the family. And you kind of are if he decides he wants to focus on taking care of his parents and you are the primary earner supporting that. It also sounds like you two have different priorities about what you should be focusing on right now. Neither one of you is wrong, but it would help to talk about it so you can get more aligned.
Anon in NYC
This is what stuck out to me too.
NYNY
Very much this. He’s 33, has a wife and toddler, but his major concern is supporting his parents? Are they in a bad health or financial situation? Is it cultural? (If so, is he from a different culture than you?)
Also, it sounds like you were blindsided by his sudden change of heart because it indicates a lack of ambition. Maybe the side he’s presenting to you now is not who you thought he was? Like, you got together and were both bright, ambitious people sharing a life, and the program fit into that narrative. But now that he’s been accepted, he’s thinking of leaning back and you’re like, “wait, what happened to my go-getter?”
Anonymous
I guessed it was cultural? Pretty common in some cultures for the oldest male child to be responsible for the parents as they age, including living with son’s family. If that’s the case, hopefully OP and her DH chatted about what ‘support’ would look like prior to marriage.
Anonymous
Take the parents out of it and I think you’re being completely unreasonable. He makes good money and deciding he doesn’t want to go back to school because he wants to continue enjoying his comfortable salary and saving towards buying a home seems perfectly ok to me. I’m not sure why that would make you resentful. Yes, you make more, but he is contributing to your household plenty and it’s a perfectly reasonable decision (and might even make sense financially) not to go without income for four years (and take on loans?) just to potentially make more money down the line. You say a $50k increase is guaranteed but nothing in life is ever guaranteed – the economy could implode while he’s in school and jobs in the higher-paying line of work could evaporate. Think of all the people that started law school in 2006 or 2007 thinking they had $160k jobs basically guaranteed to be waiting for them, and then 2008 happened.
But you mention supporting his parents about seven times, so I think that’s a big issue for you and it would be for me too. What kind of support does he want to give them and why? If they are literally destitute and he wants to put a roof over their heads and food on the table, it’s hard to argue with that. But if he’s giving them luxuries, and you’re working hard to support those luxuries, I can understand why your resentful. Time for a serious conversation about the parental support, me thinks.
Anonymous
Are you resentful because you’d like to entertain the notion of you stepping back while he earns most of the income? Even if you wouldn’t seriously want to quit your job, sometimes people value having that option in the back of their head. My husband went through something similar with where he wanted to go back to school and then he didn’t and then he wanted to and then he didn’t. He couldn’t decide if he liked or hated his current career. I did find it very frustrating that he couldn’t decide about school and then didn’t go aggressively hunt down his goal like I did when I earned my degrees. I felt like we wasted so much time talking about it, but different people have different styles and I have learned to roll with it.
Anonymous
I think this is part of it – not being comfortable with the wishy-washy (or, thoughtfully evaluative and flexible, however you want to view this) aspect. I also think you might have an issue feeling like you’re more motivated (law school, biglaw, high earner) than your partner is (and that maybe you’ve HAD to be more motivated, for whatever reason, but it sounds like actually you have a life where you don’t HAVE to do any of these things).
Jen
What’s the ROI on the degree/coursework? I get that it’s “guaranteed” 50k/year more, but how long would he have to be in that role to make up for continuing in his current track/pace?
My DH went back for an MBA and even though he made 40k more the day he graduated than he did pre degree, it was a $$$ degree and it took 2 years of no income and paying tuition. Today, he makes $120k more than he made pre MBA, 6 years out. It was worth it, but he also was very fortunate in terms of career path. His parent were aghast that he would give up his good steady job to go back to school.
Anonymous
Yeah, I want her to crunch the numbers with lost opportunity of not earning for four years vs increased earning potential (but taking into account what increases he would earn with no degree). And the parent thing is a separate issue as someone else explained well. Basically OP, I think you need more info and then maybe you can figure out what is really bothering you here.
Coach Laura
In this case we don’t have enough information. If his increase is $50k and his current salary is $20k the calculation is different than if his current salary is $50k. I also have questions about the $50k increase being guaranteed.
OP one of my concerns being the primary wage earner was that I had no ability to step back (maternity leave, disability or whatever). You might have looked on this new path as a reduction in your stress even if you were to remain the primary wage earner. Coupled with taking care or parents I can understand why you might want him to earn more and why that might be a better choice for the family. I’d recommend talking to him from that angle.
RR
I totally get it. I make 4/5 of our household income, and although I am 100% on board with the choices we made being best for the family. Still, there are times when it sucks for the pressure of our entire financial health to be on me. When my husband expresses a desire for a bigger house (that we need, and that I want too), and I recognize that it’s up to me to continue to progress to make that happen for us. It’s up to me to finance college and any help we need to provide for our parents. It’s exhausting.
We made the decision a few years ago for my husband to go part time, and it’s a great decision for our family. Honestly, I’d love him to just be a stay at home dad so our lives would run more smoothly. But, when we made the decision, he said something about how he didn’t want the rest of his life to be just “go to work, come home and take care of the kids, repeat.” He wanted hobbies. And I want those things for him, and I agree that his being part time is perfect for us. But, essentially describing my life as being something he didn’t want while we made the decision that I would continue to try to progess at work so he could have more stuck with me in a bad way. Yes, I know we made this decision. I know that it’s best for our family. I know that I can ask for more too, and I do. His being part time gives me more time too. But still, there was a little pinch in that moment.
I think you need to decide together what makes sense for your family. Yes, he may decide he wants to keep working instead of going back to school. But, that doesn’t mean you have to decide to kill it at the same pace. Figure out what positives about his staying at his job you can use to translate to helping you. More money = more help = more time for you to put on your own oxygen mask first. I don’t think you are really mad at him so much as tired and stressed about your job and the pressure of being the breadwinner for the family. You need him, in some way, to take some of that pressure. Maybe he’s doing that by staying at his job. Maybe he can do that by giving more time.
Baconpancakes
It sounds to me like you’re not resentful of having to support the family, but rather of him changing the plan on you. You two agreed upon a plan that involved him going to school to make more money and taking some of the financial burden off of you. Now he’s changing the plan. That seems to be the crux of the issue.
Anony
To be honest, what I got from reading between the lines in your comment was that you are envious that he get to change his mind, waffle a bit on his plan, try to decide exactly when he feels comfortable to make a change… and he has that freedom because you are providing him the security to do so, but it’s not a luxury you’ve ever had. And, the cost of him having that freedom is that you don’t. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to feel envious that someone has the flexibility to carefully consider exactly what career path is right for them, without being overly concerned about finances. That “someone” being your husband who you also love dearly and want to be happy probably makes the feelings confusing – you are used to your lives being so intertwined and interconnected that to say “I’m envious of your life right now” feels like your right hand telling your left hand that it’s frustrated Lefty does less work.
Dee
This is what I took from it as well.
Anon
I think this is it. And I don’t think he lacks ambition; he was recently promoted. He just happens to have a less strenuous career.
Are you happy in your career?
October
I understand being annoyed when plans change. But I think your husband being content with what he currently has/does is a great characteristic. There is more to life than making more money, climbing the ladder, and putting your personal life and sense of well-being on the back burner in the elusive name of “success.” In a marriage there does need to be an element of mutual agreement, but there should also be space for each spouse to determine what path they would like to follow. Are you perhaps feeling envious, and you yourself want to downsize? Then do it! Crunch the numbers and be happy with less. You have one life; don’t keep racing on the treadmill unless that’s what you want. Your husband shouldn’t have to, either.
Cb
Anecdote from academia: just met with a student who was concerned about his mark. He described it as an “annoying mark” and in an attempt to reassure him, I told him it was the class average. His response: “but we don’t come here to be average…” Have no idea how to respond to that, by definition someone has to be average right?
Anonymous
Oh, lordy.
“No one does.”
“No one does. It is a sharp crowd that you’re in and to keep up with the pack is in fact a compliment. I wouldn’t expect more than one or two to keep a faster pace.”
Honestly, 1 person gets the gold medal. The silver guy is grumpy. The bronze winner is elated. The rest of the people are awfully d*mn good. And then there’s the rest of us on our couches.
Anonymous
“You don’t get here if you are average. But everyone here isn’t average so an average mark here is reflective of a high standard.”
cbackson
Then it’s on him to rise above others. I remember having a similar conversation with a law school classmate once, and finally, I was so annoyed that I said, “You were the smartest person in your college class, weren’t you?” He said that he was, and then I said, “All of us were the smartest person in our high school class.” The point being that grades (especially in law school) are on a relative scale, and if everyone’s smart, then a smart person is average.
Anon
Did he come to you hoping you would raise it? Sorry, you didn’t perform well this time and this is your mark. They don’t need reassurance just to stop complaining and perform better next time.
My husb is a prof in a top tier uni here in the Midwest and the amount of students that come to complain for a higher grade just surprises me!
Cb
Students can’t challenge marks on the basis of academic judgement here, but it doesn’t stop them from whining about their marks. The students who show up are pretty awesome – they are just learning so I try to give them some helpful guidance.
I got an email addressed “Yo Cb!” this week. Didn’t realise the 1990s were back in such a big way.
CountC
I have conferences with my students to discuss their first graded assignment (legal writing class). Most of them did fine, but I am sure there will be some who will come ready to brawl!
Blonde Lawyer
This is actually “a thing” in middle and high school now. Teachers don’t grade on a curve anymore. All kids are supposed to be capable of getting A’s. There was a case in my state about the issue since teachers were getting disciplined for having too many students below A and B averages and that “too many” was like 5 out of a class of 30. I just don’t get it.
October
I agree with not grading on a curve, especially for quantifiable subjects like math, science, etc. — you either got the problems right, or you didn’t. If everybody got them right, then maybe the assignment was too easy, but they still all deserve As. Why shouldn’t you grade based on the student’s actual achievement, rather than in comparison to his/her peers?
SC
I agree with not grading on a curve in middle and high school (with a possible exception of AP/IB courses).
Anon
I don’t think you need to respond. If he doesn’t want to be average then he needs to perform at a higher than average rate.
EB0220
I hope this wasn’t a statistics class.
Anonymous
So…y’all teach in Lake Webegon?
Anonymous
(where all the kids are above average, for those that don’t listen to Prairie Home Companion)
Sacrifices
What are some personal sacrifices you all have made for your career? And how do you think it worked out for you?
Anonymous
I’ve been in my current job for more than a decade with a mercurial boss, a fair bit of downtime, and no real advancement opportunity because it pays exceedingly well and offers me flexibility to take care of a really ill family member. I resented it for a long time but I’m grateful now for the flexibility they’ve shown me. Turned down two other offers recently because of this.
Anonymous
haha, need coffee! I read your question backwards – this was a career sacrifice I made for personal reasons. Whoops. :) Carry on. . .
Anon
I went to law school at night while working full-time so that I could graduate with a lower debt load and continue to get experience in the area I was interested in working when I graduated. It was a grueling few years but worked out great for me. I paid off my loans easily and have had a great career path in the niche area that I worked in during law school.
crash
I went to the academically “best” graduate/professional training programs, rather than the ones where I would have had more support/family nearby/quality of life.
I did an extra, very rigorous graduate degree for the prestige and to get all of my graduate degrees paid for with stipends. Many, many years of living at a very low standard of living as a student, but they were still the best years of my life surrounded by brilliant, passionate, interesting people.
Saw very little of my family during those hard years of school/training, and was often lonely. Also didn’t have any relationships. Was working so, so, so hard with a lot of stress. But still loved it. Ah, to be young….
It set me up terrifically for my career, connections, opportunities and I received everything I tried for. But when personal/family issues suddenly arose from afar, everything in the career track was instantly insignificant and pushed aside for more important things.
Not sure it was all worth it? My life is totally, totally different now, and I am no longer renowned for my career. But I think I am healthier, happier, and more at peace.
Anonymous
This dress looks kind of frumpy to me. Does it just not fit the model?
Anonymous
I think it would be good for some one very tall and broad shouldered and busty b/c the long full skirt would add balance and define the waist.
I am a shortish pear and this would look all sorts of tragic on me.
Anonymous
I’m tall and I felt this was definitely not for me. It just seems like SO MUCH fabric! Would be lovely in a slight A-line.
Baconpancakes
Agree, I am not tall, but not short, and very broad shouldered and busty and these dresses never work on me, as much as I want them too. I have plenty of stuff on bottom, too, so I think the extra fabric overcompensates. A narrow-hipped person might look better in them.
Gray
I don’t know. I’m heavier on the bottom and this accents the slim upper parts. I thought this style suited me when it was in fashion.
Anonymous
I think everything at Land’s End is too big on their models.
Anonymous
An interesting question came up yesterday. Someone (who I think was being very troll-y) asked why anyone would marry someone if she didn’t like his mother. Can we discuss this? It would be ideal if we could all marry partners whose parents were perfect and loving and wonderful. But should not-so-great parents be a deal-breaker? One of the things I admire most about my husband is how well he has done and how much he has evolved despite less than ideal circumstances during his childhood. Should I have kicked him to the curb because his parents drive me crazy during our very limited interactions?
Anonymous
That’s a stupid question. We all get our own deal breakers.
Ms B
I agree that everyone has their own deal breakers.
Also, keep in mind that how you perceive ILs can change over time. I was extremely fond of my MIL . . . right until The Kid came along and she lost.her.mind. As in, “I know was an educator for years and know what’s best from a child development and parenting perspective, but by golly, I am going to do whatever I want in the grandma role regardless of outcome, fallout, or impact.” It shows up both in her behavior towards The Kid and in how she behaves towards me. It has made things somewhere between uncomfortable and close to hostile.
Had I known that things were going to be like this, then, yeah, it might have impacted how the relationship went. OTOH, we had many years before The Kid came along where this was not a problem and I figure that in the next few years or so the problem will work itself out.
TL:DR: You do you. YMMV. Batteries not included.
Anonymous
This only works if you CAN limit those interactions though and keep your feelings to yourself. My father did not like my grandmother. My mom hated my father’s sisters. Everyone lived within 40 miles of each other. Even as a kid I knew that tension was there and while there were for sure other factors involved in their divorce, this was definitely one of them. My parents definitely didn’t try hard enough to keep us out of it and my family trust issues are going to make a therapist incredibly rich some day. Or me if I ever write that book.
Anonymous
I wouldn’t not marry someone because his mother is terrible, but I would definitely hesitate to marry someone who was not appropriately standing up to his mother (or any other family member). In my opinion, when someone gets married, their spouse (and kids if applicable) need to be paramount, and they need to draw appropriate boundaries with other family members including parents. You shouldn’t judge someone for having a sh*tty parent, but you can judge them for how they interact with that person and how much they let that person dictate their life.
Sarabeth
This. It doesn’t matter how terrible a partner’s parents are *if* s/he recognizes it, and actively works to mitigate the parents’ impact on family life. Mitigation can take a lot of forms. It can mean cutting them off, but it can also mean that partner frequently visits them solo, so that you only rarely have to spend time with them. But it needs to be actively recognized as a problem and managed.
Anonymous
Or you could just consider it a dealbreaker and walk away. Why should you damage a relationship between a mother and a son? Go find a guy whose mom you can tolerate instead of forcing some poor guy to “actively mitigage the parents’ impact.” That’s insanely self-centered.
Sarabeth
I mean, sure, you can consider anything a dealbreaker. But the question is whether this *should* be a dealbreaker, and I don’t think it has to be. There are other options.
Tangentially, you have an odd model of relationships. I don’t force my partner to do anything, he’s an adult. But I also don’t let his parents yell at me, which is what they would do if we spent any significant time together. He chose to be in a relationship with me, and he understands that I’m not willing to put up with sustained verbal abuse from his parents, so he sees them (rarely, because they aren’t super pleasant to him either) without me. I don’t think it would be nicer to him to have refused to date him just because his parents are a**holes.
AnonMidwest
This. It isn’t the quality or lack there of of the MIL/FIL. it’s your significant other’s ability to deal with them, assess their personality fairly and stand up for themselves and your relationship.
Anon
+1
tribble
The problem with this is how it plays out before marriage. It’s easy to say that guy should put his wife above his mother. But what about a GF? At what point should you expect to come first? By the time you can reasonably expect to be a high priority, you’re already emotionally invested, you see all the wonderful things about this kind and caring person, and you don’t want to just leave because he doesn’t stand up to his mom the twice a year it matters. So you get married, trust he’ll step up once the ring is on, he still doesn’t but it’s still nbd really, then you have a couple of kids and suddenly MIL is around more/her toxicity is affecting the kids and DH still won’t stand up and some random internet person is telling you that you should’ve seen this coming.
anon
THIS.
Kindergarten boy
+1 million
Thisperson1
I’m glad my husband didn’t do this. I’m not close to my mother, don’t agree with her opinions or values and am very different from her. To be judged by her actions? That would be awful.
On the other hand, if (from my husband’s view) I was close to my mother despite her actions, then yes. I would thank that was a red flag.
Anonymous
I’m single, but, +1. I am not my mother (thank god), but I wouldn’t want to be with anybody who judged me by her standard, anyway.
Anonymous
I had a terrible first MIL and my current MIL is not much better. Depending upon how close the H is, or how much responsibility he feels for her, it can be really crushing on a marriage. At least in my situation, he knows how self-absorbed she is, how neglectful she was, but there’s still the responsibility he feels toward her.
To reverse it, you can’t marry a man FOR his mother. I dated a guy I was so-so on but his mother was so amazing! I still miss her.
AnonMidwest
I dearly miss my first boyfriend’s mom. She was a great person.
NYNY
My husband’s mother is awful, and the much of rest of his family is difficult. This is frequently a challenge in our lives, but it’s his situation, and a situation I chose to take on when I married him. It isn’t his fault, so it seems unfair to make it a dealbreaker. It could be a dealbreaker if I didn’t approve of the way he handles his difficult family.
Gray
My husband is from an abusive family and I dislike his parents. I think the answer depends on how close you are expected to be with the inlaws. I try to minimize my own interaction with them.
Jitterbug
I feel like nearly anything can be a deal-breaker as long as you’re not a jerk about it.
But on this topic, it would depend on how involved the parents were, and how much the guy defended them. If he admitted they were tough to get along with and understood why I was frustrated around them, that would be fine; if he claimed his parents were perfect and I had to love and accept them unconditionally as he did, that might be an issue. If they lived across the country and we only saw them for one or two holidays a year, I might be able to tolerate that; if we saw them once a month, and/or if they butted into our business all the time, that might not be something I’m willing to deal with. If they came to stay with us and I had to play hostess, that would be an issue; worse if there was a possibility of them ever moving in with us.
When you marry someone, you do become a part of their family, so it does matter.
Anon
Last minute trip to DC, an overnight, purely social. I haven’t been there in a few years. We are staying near DuPont Circle. Is there a place with jazz & good food around, other than Blues Alley? What about fancy coffee shops? Was thinking Jaleo’s for dinner; does anyone have any other recs? Mid-priced and unique (ie, not the Capitol Hill Grille)
Murzle
If you want super unique, try Little Serow. If the wait is too inconvenient, Tail Up Goat, Daikaya Izakaya, and All Purpose are all fun and take both reservations and walk-ins. Estadio is walk-in only but also super fun, and there are tons of spots to get drinks nearby while you wait.
For fancy coffee, Slipstream is probably your best bet. La Colombe in Blagden Alley is also fun. Tryst isn’t particularly fancy, but it’s cute and has a good vibe. Also adding Compass Coffee to this list just in case you stumble across it. Their nitro cold brew is what got me through law school finals.
Not sure about jazz places, but I’m interested in seeing what others suggest. Enjoy your visit!
anon a mouse
Go somewhere on 14th street for dinner instead of Jaleo. Look at Estadio, Barcelona, Le Diplomate and the area around there for more inspired choices.
Baconpancakes
You want Slipstream coffee. I LOVE that place. It’s on 14th. Sit at the counter to watch the woman making 20 flawless poached eggs in a row, and get a breakfast bowl and their nitro iced coffee, or their “coffee three ways” if you like espresso, for a very fancy tasting experience. And at night, they have drinks, many with coffee. (Drink and a shot is hilarious – either a beer and a shot of espresso or a cup of coffee and a shot of liquor.)
ETA just saw Murzle did recommend Slipstream and La Colombe, which is my other favorite. Bring home La Colombe’s beans – they are delightful.
Tetra
Also try A Baked Joint for an interesting coffee shop — their biscuits are ridiculously good.
Ms B
I like Central, regardless of my travel distance. Tartare, gougeres, and either the chicken or the cassoulet. Good for lunch or dinner.
Anon
Do not go to Jaleo. It’s gone downhill in recent years. Estadio has the best tapas in DC, although they don’t take reservations. If it’s just 2 people, it should be pretty easy to get a spot at the bar. Make sure you order the orange-thyme gintonic or one of the sherry cocktails. If there’s a wait, just head to Ghibellina (a block and a half away) for a drink. They have an amazing selection of amaros.
If you want to try a Jose Andres place, go to Zaytinya (mediterranean small plates) instead of Jaleo.
There is nowhere in DC that has both jazz and good food. You could try Twins jazz on U Street if you’re tired of Blues Alley. Check out the website capitalbop dot com for the DC jazz calendar.
If you end up going to Blues Alley, have dinner at Chez Billy Sud. The wine bar next door (Bar a Vin) is also excellent.
Eliza
Chez Billy Sud has a fantastic brunch, if that’s on your list.
Anon
Question about how you all track your savings accounts – we have two savings accounts currently, but I’m trying to figure out the best way to track what’s what in each account. What is our savings for emergencies, long-term (vehicles, new house, etc.), short-term (annual costs – insurance, vehicle registration, property taxes). Is there a magical spreadsheet anyone uses to keep track everything? I use Quicken to track all our our ins and outs and to reconcile each checking & savings, but I want to make sure I’m consistently moving money to the right buckets all within our two savings accounts. Any thoughts?
Anonymous
Why does it matter what buckets it is in?
nona
What do you use to budget? Because that’s where I would track what kind of money I have in what buckets. I use YNAB (You Need A Budget), but there are other options out there.
Senior Attorney
I use Ally Bank and have an actual separate savings account for each bucket. Much easier than having it in one big account and tracking it separately. Also this way I don’t run afoul of the rule that limits the number of monthly withdrawals from savings accounts if there are a lot of short-term-savings expenses in different categories in the same month.
Shopaholic
+1 – I got this idea from SA and now have approx. 7 different savings accounts. When I explain my system to other people they are confused, but I think it adds clarity because I don’t have to track what is allocated for what bucket – they’re all in separate buckets.
KateMiddletown
Me too. I heart Ally for so many reasons, but the ability to have a few different small accounts which I can fund via direct deposits is sooo nice. I just name mine – “New Roof”, “Summer/Christmas $”, and “Down Payment” are all names of past or present savings accounts.
Eliza
I do the same but with Capital One. You can also move money between accounts instantly.
Anonshmanon
I made my own spreadsheet where I have two tables: one tracks net worth (balances from savings account, checking account, investment account). Roughly every other month or so, I insert a new column with the current date, and enter all the balances, and a sum tells me what money I have.
The other table has all my saving buckets (vacation fund, emergency fund, upcoming move), with the target for each. When I sit down to track the net worth, the second tabel also gets a new column for current status. I allocate fractions of my saved cash to these different savings buckets until the sum is equal to the cash savings (stocks owned are long term, so that money is not allocated to any spending purpose). It is incredibly motivating to see the progress over time and to see “I have enough money for the next vacation saved up”.
Anon for this
Do any of you have businesses/side hustles in addition to your regular daytime jobs? A friend and I have a business idea that we’d like to pursue in about 5 or so years from now when we’re more stable in our careers/financially.
Anon
Investing.
Ms B
Restaurant investor for me.
One of my coworkers has a SO whose business makes and distributes a speciality food product. He is having good success, but could not do what he does if his work was something that required time outside business hours or did not give him the flexibility to work remotely when he wants to.
KateMiddletown
Listen to Side Hustle School podcast. I caught the 1st ep and it’s full of productive and actionable tips.
Katie
When I’m not at my day job, I work at a wine shop. Easy, not stressful, and I get discount booze. Best side hustle ever.
Anonymous
I’d put the first two categories you list – emergency and longterm savings – into one accounts and leave the short term items in my main account. Then set a fixed amount you put into the savings bucket each month and try not to touch it.
Anonymous
Life insurance question(s): my husband and I are looking into term life insurance. We’re both in our early 30s. I’m generally healthy with no big issues in my family history; my husband may have a heart condition (results are borderline) that can result in sudden death at a young age. We realize this may make him uninsurable but would like to explore our options.
In case it matters: we have one kid and hope to have more; we have student loan debt; we don’t own a house but plan to someday; we both have Big Law-type incomes. We both have life insurance coverage through our jobs, but it’s limited (I think we each have 1 or 2x salary).
So, a few questions:
1) Brokers. I assume, given my husband’s condition, that we should use an independent broker vs using a website. How do we find a broker? Is it a local thing? We’re in NYC, if it matters
2) High risk. Any one have experience obtaining life insurance for pre-existing conditions like this? Is there anything specific we should keep in mind or look into?
3) Any other general guidance on how to go about this?
Thanks!
Anonymous
I know my state bar offers this service. Maybe they could be one of your calls.
Also FWIW, when I was trying to get health insurance (pre-ACA) I got turned down on the first application (my BMI was too low…don’t get me started, I am small-boned!). Then for all other applications I had to answer that I got turned down on a prior application, which resulted in getting denied by a couple more places. Just something to think about in case life insurance is the same way.
Anonymous
I applied for life insurance last year and this question was on there.
October
For my husband’s policy, we went directly through MetLife; for mine, we used SelectQuote (like a broker). What I found extremely frustrating about the process was that you have to stick to the parameters of the application, and can only give supplemental information/doctor notes/context for health conditions later in the process after it’s become an issue (I was assured by the person doing my med exam/application that such and such “doesn’t matter, leave it” and of course it mattered). I am 30, great health and was denied by MetLife because I am having a fairly benign condition monitored; once I officially got the clear bill of health I applied with another company and was approved. Basically, if you have anything questionable going on it can be a really hard, annoying process…. but I hope you have a better experience than I did!
Short version: Try SelectQuote if you don’t have a specific company in mind. And prepare for frustration.
Anonymous
Our bank, Capital One, offered a brokerage service. As far as I know, we didn’t pay any extra fees (although I’m not entirely clear on how this worked), and the rates were comparable to what I was getting quotes for independently. The guy was helpful in guiding us through the process, although probably not a whole lot more helpful than just reading articles online. That said, we were pretty much perfect candidates (young, good health), so I can’t speak to what it is like if you are in a high risk category, other than that it will be more expensive, but probably a good idea nonetheless given that you have a kid.
Anon
Has anyone had success learning/practicing a language with podcasts on their commute? If so, two questions: what program and was it a new language or something you studied previously?
I feel like this is a better use of my commute than the current things I listen to and Id probably enjoy it. Not sure whether to start the new language that I wish I knew (Spanish) or practice the language I’ve studied but rarely if ever use in real life (French).
Anonymous
It won’t make you bilingual but it will certainly be a big help. I’ve also done the listening to an audio book while following along in the physical copy combination and that’s helped my language skills too.
If you know some French, that will help you with Spanish as they are in the same family of languages vs. if you knew Mandarin and were trying to learn Swedish.
Macademia
I listened to News in Slow Spanish Latino regularly for a while. It helped keep my Spanish from getting even more rusty.
Anonymous
If you choose French, I really like “Coffee Break French” and “News in Slow French.”
Eliza
+1 for both of these.
Anonymous
Everyone says the third language is easier than the second and French and Spanish have many cognates and similarities, but it was so hard for me when I tried to learn Spanish after studying French in high school. I was constantly mixing it up and speaking French when I tried to speak Spanish and vice versa or speaking a bizarre mixture of both languages. I gave up on trying to learn Spanish and decided to go back to polishing my high school French with DuoLingo and that’s been going much better.
Echo
+1 for Coffee Break French.
I did the opposite of you— took Spanish in high school and college, but have been studying French for the last 1 year 8 months. Study which language you LOVE— which one you want to watch movies in, travel to, soak up the language, read in, love pronouncing, want to practice. You need a source of motivation for language to really stick. For me, that was French, and have had great luck with language classes and podcasts along with anything else I can get my hands on.
Anonymous
Just have to say it here because in real life no one cares – I finally found my unicorn jeans! Ones that fit off the rack, hold up well in the wash, and look professional with no holes anywhere. I’ve always struggled because I’m short (5′ 3″) with big hips and thighs and a small waist. NOTHING fit, I always had to pretty significantly tailor them. The biggest plus? They’re from Old Navy and I can get them on sale for $15. My days of buying semi-fitting $150 I instantly need to get tailored are out the door and I am ecstatic.
Fishie
Same body, same favorite jeans.
January
But which Old Navy jeans??
Anonymous
OP here. I bought the Curvy Mid-Rise Skinny in the short size in every wash. They work with flats, tucked into boots, rolled with booties, and basically with everything. I will also probably try the bootcut in the not short size here in a bit so I can wear them with heels. Overall, I can’t help but be impressed. Here’s the link to the curvy jeans.
http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/category.do?cid=85729&kwid=1&sem=false&brandCvoSid=68X5WC7JXJCF#pageId=0&style=1036223
Fishie
Mine are typically Rockstar, but really any of the mid-rises tend to work well on me. I tried on NYDJ after many recommendations here and found the rise to be enormous on me (like, SO much zipper), probably because I’m so short. Old Navy hits exactly the right rise for me.
Ariadne
+1. I have taken time to try NYDJ at Nordstrom, go to specific shops that carry specific jeans in my city, and eventually ended up exhausted after hours and hours of demoralizing jean and pant searches. I keep coming back to old navy rockstars because they fit my5’4 wide hips smaller waist and narrow legs. I often size up to a size 14, so they seem slightly more straight legged. The 12 s fit my legs better, but read as tight skinnies, (ok, but I like them slightly looser). The black ones are more consistent in size, but the other colours have inconsistent sizing for sure.
Btw, a jeans hack some may not be aware of, is if a pair of jeans is tight in the waist(but fits well at the hips and legs), cut a small v in the side or back of the waistband and fill with a patch or elastic (or leave if you are ok with fraying). This lets the button lie flat, and helps if there is a pair that fits well, except at the waist.
January
Thank you both! (I am taller than you, but always looking for something that works on small waist and bigger hips/thighs).
nutella
ALL of my jeans are Old Navy. They are just the best fitting ones out there! And for the price, I can buy various colors, washes, distressing, etc. I’m similar to you – 5’3″ small waist but bigger hips, size 2, short legs, perfect fit. Been going only to Old Navy for jeans now for ~5 years.
nutella
I wear Rockstars and yes, you can order two Rockstars in the same size but different color and one will be awesome and one will be terrible. It’s somewhat hit-or-miss, but I’ve been very happy with the ones that work.
Fishie
This is true. Sometimes I just give up and have to go into a store and actually try things on, but I’ve found several of my all time favorite jeans that way.
Anonymous
I feel so much better reading this because I feel like a lot of fashion blogs turn up their noses at Old Navy jeans. But they are the only jeans that consistently work for me, and I’ve tried lots (JAG, James Jeans, NYDJ, Talbots, Kut from the Kloth, Lucky Brand, etc.) And they don’t cost $75-$100 a pair, which is more than I care to pay. I love the Rockstar and have several pairs in different washes.
Anon
Good that you bought a lot of them. I have Old Navy jeans I love too but guaranteed if you go back in 6 months to buy another and buy the exact same style — it will not fit the same. Companies selling $15 jeans aren’t known for consistently reliable products.
Gray
MAC jeans for Europeans. They have different cuts for different bodies. When you find your cut you can be certain that its always exactly the same fit and size. The cut comes out in additional new variations every season but you can still buy online because the fit is exact. Yay for German presicion! Plus their Dream line is as comfy as sweatpants but looks professional, its not that awful jegging material that I always see everywhere.
Snoozy
Indeed. MAC Dream or Dream Skinny for me. I’ve stopped looking elsewhere. So comfy, and solid material.
Jitterbug
That’s good to know! I’m also short, with some junk in the trunk, and I found that the petite jeans from the Gap are awesome as well.
When I was 12, and trying on jeans at Old Navy, I had a meltdown because the jeans that fit my waist were too long and the jeans that were short enough were too tight, and I thought that meant there was something really wrong with my body, like I must be too fat. My mom, thankfully, took me to Kohls where they had jeans in different lengths. I take it Old Navy has gotten better about offering jeans in different lengths as well now?
Pears
I love them too!
Pears
Only probably is they still bleed and I’ve washed them 10 times. But they fit!
H
Congratulations! So jealous. Still looking for the perfect pair.
X
Grr. My new boss just sent me an email saying he “just wanted to point out one small item that you said [in an email] and suggest a better way to say it in the future.” I’m a senior staff member. I sent an email to a co-worker who I work with a great deal and who sits in the next cube. I cc’ed my boss on it. He has been here just over a week. He’s micromanaging us. like crazy. I have social anxiety and take medicine for it. This morning I took a double dose, but now I wish I’d tripled it.
I posted about him yesterday. My former boss already sandbagged our team by telling him that we are inflexible, close-minded and unwilling to accept change. This is untrue. Our former boss has an agenda. He has been pushing a particular software application on the university. We’re not sure why – maybe he has stock in the company. When we questioned his decisions and suggested that he needed to consider other options or told him that things he said disparaging other application were not true, he shut us down. Now he’s a Director and makes the decisions on which software to use and buy. So we’ve been effectively muzzled.
Right now I feel like I have nowhere to go. And a micro-manager on top of everything. Nitpicking my emails is ridiculous. I’m the only one who communicates anyway.
Anonymous
Two things: 1. Why are you sending an e-mail to someone in the next cube–sounds like it would be a better conversation. (and for that reason, why CC your boss–are you ratting him out or showing off?); and 2. Maybe, just maybe your boss has a helpful idea. It sounds like you are defensive based on the transition and unwilling to give the new guy a chance. Try to re-position yourself to be open to change and learning. Approach this as an intellectually curious opportunity.
X
I am emailing the guy in the next cube because I offered to take on a project that another member of my team had been assigned and my boss wants to be included in the communication on all projects so he knows what they are. See micromanaging!
I was actually hoping that this guy would help us out and open the lines of communication to upper management, as well as allow us to install an intake process whereby we could evaluate each request that comes in and decide which tool would best fit but he consulted the Director and the Director quashed it.
I promise you our team is not defensive. We are not unwilling to accept change, but the tool in question is not always the best solution and we are not allowed to use any other. Regarding the email, the new manager was out of line. He inserted himself in a conversation without understanding the players involved. I’m not 22. I know how to phrase things correctly.
Anonymous
You, again, sound extremely defensive and resistant to change. Your new boss wants to be cc-ed on emails so he learns what is going on. That is not micromanaging. That is normal. Get over it.
Anonymous
+1. I’m about to fire a person who works for me and leaves me off emails. I manage in a fast-paced transaction environment and if I’m not copied on transaction emails, I can’t manage the deal and manage him properly. It’s not micromanaging.
Anonymous
+1
OP, I am getting stressed just reading your post. Perhaps your new manager also feels this jumping off the page?
Rainbow Hair
Would trying to be sympathetic to your new boss help at all? It sounds like he doesn’t know all the details of how things work there — like that you and your colleague understand one another so well. And perhaps he thought that your CC-ing him was a way to seek feedback. I would try to put on a happy face and respond something like, “thanks, I’ll remember that for next time.”
X
Thanks.
I did respond thanking him and letting him know that the person I emailed was not a user, but a member of our group. As mentioned above, I cc’ed him because he asked us to.
But I wish he’d show the same consideration for me. I’m about the same age as him. I’m late 40’s, with an MBA. Nitpicking my email is obnoxious.
Anonymous
So you responded to his email with a defensive explanation of why he was wrong? Nope nope nope.
Idk why you think being 40 matters here? You have a new boss. Suck it up and play nice.
X
I didn’t tell him he was wrong. I told him who the user was. Because he thought I was responding to an outside user. I thanked him for letting me know and told him I’d be more careful if I was responding to an outside user, but C is actually in our group.
But, you know what, forget it. I thought maybe I might get some advice from people who might have ideas on how to help us figure out how to get our boss to understand that our Director has sabotaged the relationship between us. And maybe some commiseration for the fact that on top of this, I’m being nitpicked over my email content.
I took a double dose of my social anxiety meds today!
Thanks for the sympathy and kindness!
Regarding my age, do you send nitpicky emails to people your own age? My email was very polite and informative. There was nothing wrong with it…
Anonymous
+1 Also, consider why, if you are so mature and qualified, why you aren’t the boss. Maybe because you need improvement in some areas.
Anonymous
You did. He said “change” and you said “I don’t need to change you’re wrong about what is happening.” Can’t you see that?
The advice you’re getting is good. And it isn’t unkind. Your boss is new and learning the ropes. Figure out ways to say yes to him. To work with him. To implement changes he requests. Start off on a good foot because at some point you’ll want to push back on something that actually matters, and no one will listen if you’ve refused to make any other changes.
X
Just so you know I don’t want to be boss.
I’m a programmer. I want to develop. But because the Director told our manager that we aren’t receptive to change, we can’t protest anything so we have to sit here and do whatever we’re told, even if the decisions are poor.
Hey, NOLA, Sydney Bristow, cbackson, BaconPancakes, Emeralds, Cb – I came here seeking actual assistance and these anonymous bitcas drove me out! I’m really stressed out and needed some advice. Maybe I’ll post my book list again somewhere else…
Cc
So first – consideration. Getting a new boss is usually hard. But honestly, you sound hysterically defensive in these posts. If this is your writing style, of course your old boss said you (or your team) was defensive. I mean in response to advice you literally are yelling out to regulars to save you and trying to pull a internet power play by threatening to post an excel spreadsheet somewhere else? I mean this with true kindness- but that is nuts. You need to take a deep breath and do your best to find empathy for your boss, because I promise you your attitude is showing in person. People here (the anonymous) have some great suggestion- save them for when you are ready to take them in.
Hang in there- change is tough and a new boss from the outside always takes some getting used to.
Anonymous
This struck me, “I thanked him for letting me know and told him I’d be more careful if I was responding to an outside user, but C is actually in our group.”
To flip this a bit, your statement above is a blow off. It’s all yea, yea, I know what I am doing, I don’t need to be more careful here, but I’ll humor you and say I will be more careful to external users. That would not make me warm and fuzzy as a new boss. You should have just said thank you and gone about your day. The defensiveness is not going to sit well with ANY boss.
Anonymous
“Regarding my age, do you send nitpicky emails to people your own age?”
If the person needs to be nitpicked, sure. When I was in Big Law as a 24 year old associate I sent emails to my 60 year old assistant that she’d probably describe as nitpicky, but it was because she was getting stuff wrong left and right. Bosses should be polite and treat their subordinates with respect, but they’re allowed to behave like the boss, even if they’re the same age (or even much younger than) the people they support. No work place that I’ve ever encountered ranks people based on age or believes older people are automatically more knowledgeable than younger people.
Anonymous
Dear lord! People are trying to help you! And you’re calling us names? People post anonymously all the time, it’s not targeted at you.
Anonymous
As if “X” is so much less anonymous than “Anon” or “Anonymous.” LOLLLLLL.
Anonymous
X, you may not be a defensive, childish, or insecure person IRL, but in writing, that is how you come across. Phrases like “Just so you know” are defensive. Stating that you are going to “post my book list again somewhere else” is the equivalent of gathering your toys and stomping off the playground. Constantly referring to your age and seniority comes across as insecure. I would take this weekend to regroup from the workweek and maybe consider a CBT-type therapy in addition to the meds you mentioned.
Anonymous
Agreed. Bunkster, you always seem to get offended at the smallest things and reply with extreme defensiveness.
Q
X, I was a programmer too and I do get where you’re coming from. I think it’s totally fine to calmly discuss things with your manager – maybe you can set up some type of one on one meeting or a forum to discuss why technology x is preferred over y and make sure it’s a nice, open minded exchange where you can ask some leading questions to get your boss to make the same conclusions you have made. Keep in mind that there are lots of business reasons for making certain technology decisions that you might not know about, which is something I didn’t really get until recently. What’s better from your point of view may not necessarily be best for the company financially or operationally, so sometimes terrible decisions are made because they’re thought better in some ways. While your manager sounds annoying, you kind of have to ignore him and play nice to get him on your side.
Maybe it would help your team to invite the manager to happy hour or lunch and bond with each other, which can help your working relationship immensely. It doesn’t matter if you don’t like him – developing a friendly relationship will make your life easier. If you want have more say in some of the technical decisions being made, ask how you can make that happen and be prepared that it may not be possible. A mentor at your company could help you navigate this.
Anonymous
Yeah, you need to get over the age thing. Age is irrelevant. Doesn’t matter if he’s 25, he’s the boss.
You seem incredibly resentful of this guy. You’ve made multiple posts complaining about the situation since before he even started as your boss and you don’t seem to be giving him any kind of chance. As an outside observer – who has only heard your side of the story, no less! – it seems like you are a huge part of the problem in this situation. One of your main complaints about him is that he said something about you and your team being resistant to change, but everything you’ve shared here indicates that you actually are resistant to change and he’s probably right on that count.
I think you could benefit from doing some unpacking about your feelings here and figuring out why this change is irritating you so much. Did you want the boss role? If so, it’s totally fair to be sad that you weren’t chosen and jealous that this guy was, but you need to find a way to process those feelings and move on so you can have a productive relationship with the new boss. And you need to recognize that, even if you were more qualified and deserved it, he’s not the one who made that decision and you need to give him a chance to succeed in this role.
X
My comment is in moderation, but I didn’t post about him before he became my boss. He came from outside the university. You’re confusing the Director with my boss.
I don’t want to be the boss. I just want to develop programs in the software that is the best solution. I’m not resentful of him. I just wish the relationship had started off neutral, instead the Director gave him an adverse impression of our team.
But you guys haven’t given me any useful advice or assistance. I’m really stressed out. If you’re going to attack me, I’d prefer that you didn’t do it anonymously. So I’m out.
Anonymous
Oh my lord, nobody is attacking you. People have given you lots of good advice, and most of it has been delivered pretty gently.
Anonymous
No one is attacking you!
Anonymous
I will miss you X. I always enjoy reading posts like yours, because it makes me understand what is going on inside the head of some of my difficult employees.
Anonymous
Ok, so the Director gave him a bad impression of the team, so blame the Director and understand that your boss is an innocent party in this. Think about how you can work to correct your new boss’s misguided impression of you. Instead of saying “Grrr he’s micro-managing, what a terrible manager” why don’t you instead think “He’s micro-managing because he was misinformed about me, this should get better once he knows what I’m capable of” and then actually demonstrate it to him, rather than just telling him.
And yes, nobody is attacking you. I think you could benefit from therapy for your anxiety and defensiveness.
Anonymous
If his advice was based on a misunderstanding of the email, I think it’s fine to point that out but in general I think you need to focus on accepting that he is the new boss, regardless of whether you think he should, and cultivate a good working relationship.
You can use the fact that old boss said you were unwilling to change as a way to subtlety indicate that the problem may have been with old boss (think: “great to receive clear feedback”)
January
Do you see a therapist about your social anxiety? I could see where a micromanaging boss is annoying and stressful, but needing to triple your anti-anxiety medication on account of this situation suggests that CBT in addition to medication would probably be beneficial for you.
Anonymous
To me, it also suggests potential medication abuse or misuse, at the very least.
Ck
+1
And you are on the wrong medicine.
You can’t double or triple your daily Lexapro dose, so you must be taking Xanax or Ativan and you definitely shouldn’t be doubling or tripling those doses on a typical day before going to the office.
You need a different doctor and probably different meds (long acting that you take daily or an increased dose or a med change if you are on one already), and to have alternative acute methods for dealing with anxiety and not overdosing on your highly, highly addictive medication.
January
Well, that, too, but I’m trying to not to further anger the OP. I suspect she stopped reading a while ago, though. In any event, as I understand it, the purpose of anti-anxiety medications is to bring the person’s anxiety down to a level where they can function in everyday situations, like dealing with a frustrating or difficult manager. It doesn’t sound like OP is there.
Jitterbug
I am going to agree that suggesting how to say things better, in internal emails (especially casual ones), to coworkers, might be a little over the top, unless his rewording was intended for outgoing emails. I’ve sometimes gotten emails that could have been reworded to “sound” better, but never a boss that would coach those coworkers on how to write better internal emails.
That said . . . this is a bit nuanced. It can feel really jarring when a new boss comes in and tries to change everything at once, especially right away. It’s best to enact change gradually, after you’ve been there for a bit and know how things have been operating; and most importantly, explain why you’re changing things. Change can be uncomfortable, and the new boss should acknowledge that.
That said, you do need to seem open to some changes. Responding to every bit of feedback with a stubborn, defensive tone is going to put anyone off. And you can always say “thanks, I’ll keep that in mind” if you get a suggestion you don’t like (although if he reminds you later, you might need to take the advice). In high school, our theater teacher told us not to take performance notes from our parents, but that if they gave us notes anyway, we were supposed to respond graciously. I’m not a fan of unsolicited feedback from people who aren’t in a position of authority, and I’m not a fan of being micromanaged either, but when you get it, sometimes you need to smile and nod, if only to keep the peace.
anon
I would be annoyed if my boss corrected me like this too. But the reality is your life will be much harder if you don’t get along with your boss. Your boss in charge now. Treat your boss like a key client you need to impress. Be extra nice and try to be open minded, even if you watch yourself tensing up at first when things like this happen. Let that pass and then be extra nice. Also, give it time. Maybe your boss isn’t so bad. But things can blow up quickly, so recognize the danger here and treat your boss with extra care and try to take your ego off the shelf a little bit, even though that’s hard. Play the long game — which is you happier and productive and succeeding in your job.
X
Okay. One last thing. This:
“I will miss you X. I always enjoy reading posts like yours, because it makes me understand what is going on inside the head of some of my difficult employees.”
Is the nastiest thing I’ve ever seen! I’ve been on this board for years and I’m speechless…
Long Time Reader
Some of the comments like this one were a little rude in tone, but many were actually pretty nice, and I definitely wouldn’t call this one even close to the nastiest thing I’ve seen on this s!te, let alone on the rest of the internet. For G-d’s sake, people have called other people “c-nts” here before.
You really need to work through why you’re so sensitive in therapy. Nobody is attacking you, and nobody attacked you personally during the Great Bunkster Flounce of 2013 – back then they just pointed out that the wording of your comment came across a little snobby, and today people pointed out that you were coming across as inflexible and defensive and maybe you were coming across the same way to the boss. That’s not a personal attack, it’s not saying you’re a bad person or a bad employee or friend. It’s giving you constructive criticism about your behavior.
The repeated flouncing and requests to certain regulars by name to save you from the meanie Anonymous comes across as incredibly immature and melodramatic. You can’t expect to get 100% positive feedback and affirmation when you put out a question and ask for advice. You are far from the only person that gets snide or sarcastic comments. I may not use the same regular handle when I post but I’ve still gotten rude or harsh comments that sting, as has just about every so-called “regular” here. The reason that it always blows up into this huge thing with you is because of your reaction, not because people on the internet are meaner to you than they are to anybody else.
Also, I just want to say, and I do genuinely mean this with kindness, that as a long time reader of this s!te, I remember you having many, many problems with multiple previous bosses and co-workers under some of your previous aliases. At some point, you have to accept the fact that the only common denominator across all these situations is you, and acknowledge the role you are playing in the problems and figure out what you can do to change. I sincerely hope you work through this stuff in therapy.
January
+1. I hope things get easier for you.
Anonymous
Yeah, honestly, this sounds like textbook BPD, not social anxiety. Find a therapist.
Anonymous
I just searched for “Bunkster flounce” and found that thread. Wow. The seeds of dysfunction and definitely there, but 2017 version is so much more morose and angry. that makes me a little sad for X.
Anonymous
Almost exactly the same threat too ” I guess I’ll have to cancel the Boston meet ups” jeeeez dude
Anonymous
Also exactly the same…Ellen! (But with a character named Gonzalo? Oh, 2013)
Cc
This is maybe the crux of the issue. You called a bunch of people the b word, but view that comment as the nastiest one you have ever seen. You think it’s nasty because it is directed at you, because, honestly you seem very defensive. I know that’s going to set you off but I don’t know how to say it! The comment can be read with a bit of a snarky tone but it could also be read sincere. One of the best things about this site is the insight it gives me into other people.
Anonymous
I chuckled when I read that it was the nastiest thing X had seen. I’ve gotten some nastiness thrown at me over the last couple of months that I would consider to be much more gross. Shrug!
Anonymous
“I will miss you X. I always enjoy reading posts like yours, because it makes me understand what is going on inside the head of some of my difficult employees.”
I cosign this 100%. And I honestly do not mean it in a nasty way. I have dealt with situations with employees that left me flabbergasted and then later read something on this site and thought…oh. Okay, maybe that’s where they were coming from. It’s honestly incredibly helpful to me, and helps me see things from a different perspective.
X, sorry if you got offended but I think you’re in a headspace where everything is going to come at you the wrong way today. Also, I am also going to express concern about the “doubling up on medication” comment. Please do not do this. I don’t know what you took, but it is not hard to overdose yourself. Please do not drink tonight, please. I am saying this purely from a place of concern.
Closet Redux
How do you allocate limited vacation time between visiting family out of town, traveling for out of town weddings, and taking an actual vacation?
DH and I live far from our families (and our families do not live in the same place). It’s a 10 hour plane travel to get to either of them, so we visit each about once a year for a week. Anything less than a week feels like its not worth the travel time or serious expense (we are a family of 4). Add in a Monday or Friday here and there for weekends away for weddings or other events, and… there go my 3 weeks of paid vacation. When do we go on an actual vacation??? Do I need to just cut out family travel every other year? That seems sad!
Anonymous
In your shoes, I would probably aim to do one week with your family, one week with DH’s family and one week of vacation with your nuclear family every year. I don’t really ever take long weekends and I have attended many weddings on the other coast by flying out Saturday morning and flying home Sunday. But surely you must have some paid holidays, right? Visit one family around Christmas/New Years so you only have to use three vacation days. Visit the other family over Memorial Day or Labor Day so you only have to use four vacation days. Voila, you have a few days to use for long weekends.
One other idea – if your families are in foreign countries, which it sounds like they are, your bosses might also be a amenable to some working from home when you visit them. I know several people who go to visit family abroad for two-three weeks and work remotely while they’re there.
Anon in NYC
I agree with the suggestion about working remotely, if you can do it. Although I know that it’s hard when visiting family. I also agree that you should try to capitalize on paid holidays to use fewer vacation days.
Can family travel to you? Even if one side of the family will visit you once a year, that would probably help a bit. FWIW, my sister has lived overseas (15 hour flight) for over a decade, and my parents have never gone to visit. I think it’s a combination of finances (flight + extended stay in a hotel + vacation days), and also this expectation that my sister will come “home” versus them traveling to her. I’m sure she’s a bit resentful of that.
Closet Redux
No overseas travel, just two endpoints that are not near major airports. So, results in long layovers or three-leg trips totaling about 10 hours.
And YES to the expectation that we will come “home.” My mom does visit us solo, but my dad is not a traveler, plus my siblings and cousins all live near my parents, so it’s definitely the expectation that we come to them. I try not to be too resentful about it, but it definitely stings the pocketbook if not ego.
Anonymous
Don’t go to all the weddings. It’s okay to say no.
That being said, growing up, all of our vacations involved travel to visit family. We hardly ever (family of 6) went on vacation that was just the 6 of us. It was usually a trip to visit grandparents, which was always a 9-11 hour car ride.
Anonymous
We visited my extended family every 5 years growing up. NYC to Australia is far. Something has to give. Maybe you go every other year, maybe you only go over holiday weeks so you’re only using up 4 days vacation, maybe you don’t do long weekends.
Anonymous
Could you make one of the trips to the grandparents a little longer than normal and do some travel from that location? Either all six of you, or just your family of four, or just you and DH while the kids stay with grandparents?
Closet Redux
This is a good idea. Visiting family is NOT a vacation (it’s a lot of work!) so I never really thing of our home destinations as possible vacation destinations, too, but maybe if we tack on travel from the home destination as you suggest.
Sarabeth
We do this. Often just me and my husband, leaving kids with doting grandparents while we get a few days to ourselves.
Mal
Any chance you could take a trip WITH your families somewhere new? We try to do this with my family (~30 hr travel time) once every 2-3 years. So at least we get to go to a new place once in a while. It helps if you all have similar travel styles and preferences.
Anonymous
We deal with this a couple ways:
1. Travel near holidays to extend time – like the week before/after July 4th. We don’t travel as much when there may be weather issues (Christmas) but we are northern so maybe not an issue for you.
2. Take nuclear family vacation on the way to visit DH’s family. So fly about halfway, one week vacation just us, then fly rest of the way and spend a week with his family. On occasion we will fly back with his parents as they don’t like traveling alone, and then they visit us for a week.
3. We rarely attend OOT weddings. Sometimes we fly and drop off grandkids at grandparents on the way to the wedding (if we can get a great seat sale), or fly the grandparents to us for the week and then we go to the OOT wedding as a couple (take 3 days).
4. About every 4 years we don’t visit family and take a two week vacation just for our nuclear family. That year the grandparents will fly to visit us.
Closet Redux
I think I’m going to have to adopt number 4 this year. I feel so stir crazy (and honestly a bit resentful) so this might be the year we skip family so I can feel like a proper vacationer again. Museums! Cocktails! Beach biking! (ok, obviously I have forgotten what a vacation looks like!).
Anonymous
You might want to dial back your expectations of what vacationing with kids looks like – unless I’m doing it wrong, there are way less cocktails and museums than there used to be.
When kids are big enough you can also swap sleepovers with cousins so you and DH can get a night away while visiting in-laws which will make the visit feel like more of a break for you.
Closet Redux
Ha, yes, can you tell my last real vacation was before kids?
Anon in NYC
Perhaps a good compromise for future years would be to rent a beach house with family in a mutually convenient location.
Rainbow Hair
Yes I love doing this (depending on how annoying your fam is). A big advantage is that you can do something like, “sister and I are gonna go get our nails done, husbands and kids can hang out at the house” and then switch.
Gray
Always prioritize yourself first! You need vacation to recharge. Can’t they visit you?
H
Can your family visit you?
Rainbow Hair
We live far from my husband’s family, but in a place that people like to vacation to, and we’ve had family come out and stay with us. I love it because when it’s his family, I can still work (or only take a few days off) and he can keep kiddo home from school and do fun stuff with his fam, while I (have an ironclad excuse for not spending all day with them and) don’t burn through all my vacation time.
I’ve also done a successful meet-in-the-middle vacation with my sister and her kids. We got an AirBnB in a cute place, the kids all got to play together (and when they’re a little older the sleepover aspect will be awesome!), and after they were in bed the grownups got to have wine in the hot tub!
ORD
Same here — DH’s family is an 8-hour flight away. We have kids who are now teenagers and given their schedules, plus our work schedules, it’s really difficult to get out there. We used to go for 2 weeks, now it’s 1 if we can fit it in, and we’re down to every other year. So then I could plan a longer vacation to a different place in the off years. Otherwise, we’d never have a non-family vacation. I wish DH would just go visit his family on his own, but he won’t — they want to see the kids and he doesn’t have that much time off.
Nordstrom tips?
New Nordstrom shopper here. I wish- listed a few dresses – what’s my strategy here? Keep visiting them to see if they get marked down? Wait for a sale? Or just put them in my cart and purchase? Thanks for any tips!
Two Cents
I generally create a wish list and wait for a sale (and the majority of items at Nordstrom do ultimately go on sale). If I really, truly love the item and I see that there are few sizes left, I might buy full price but it’s pretty rare.
Paging Dallas woman going to MMLF
How was your MM La Fleur experience yesterday?
Dallas MMLF
Sorry for the late response! I’ll try to post again tomorrow a.m. I had a great experience and I’m glad I went, as I’ve always been overwhelmed by the choices on the site. Ended up loving and buying: Etsuko in a purple-y blue, Nisa in claret, Masha in grey pinstripe, DeNeuve top in black and Sant Ambroeus in black. I’m a curvy size 14, 5’8″.
Atlanta 'rettes
Paging people familiar with downtown Atlanta — if I were going to an event at the World Congress Center and want to walk, would the Hyatt House or Hyatt Regency be a better hotel? The Hyatt House walk looks shorter, but the Regency appears to be “downtown” and in a more fun area. Would much appreciate any advice!
Anonymous
I would stay at the Hyatt Regency, personally. That area of downtown is hotel-heavy, so there are a lot of restaurants and lots of people walking around (so it’s safer). The Hyatt House is near a couple of museums (Coke and Civil Rights) and the Aquarium, so there’s more sightseeing but less going on at night (thus might not be as safe to walk). You’ll probably end up using Uber or a cab to get to the WCC anyway (it looks close to Hyatt House but it’s situated weirdly because there are train tracks and major roads surrounding it), so I’d opt for the better area for walking around in my free time.
Atlanta 'rettes
Thanks! This was my inclination too but it was kind of hard to visualize on the map.
Anonymous
I’d probably do the Hyatt Regency. If you’re looking for really fun areas, I’d encourage you to take Marta/Uber to Midtown, Old Fourth Ward, or Inman Park to walk around/enjoy the town. They’re just a few minutes and mile or two away. Downtown Atlanta is primarily convention and business travel, whereas those neighborhoods are where the locals go out for dinner/fun.
You didn’t ask, but a few of my favorites: Vortex in Midtown, basically every restaurant in Inman Park (Fritti, Sotto Sotto, Superica, Barcelona), and Noni’s or Miso Izakaya on Edgewood Ave (Old Fourth Ward).
ATL ANON
+1 to all of that. Midtown is the most walkable IMO, but be ready to Uber around some too. Also check out a all the little corner restaurants in Lake Claire or Candler Park. Stop by Fox Bros. for the city’s best bbq.
Atlanta 'rettes
Yum! even the names of these sound good. If I end up going (group trip currently pending), I will definitely be back for recommendations :-)
sombra
I had a very positive experience at the MMLF showroom in DC. It was a nice no pressure session (other than my own rushing to get across town to dinner). I had a list of the dresses I wanted to try (which my stylist said was cool since most people just ask to be styled) and she also had a good eye for which sizes ran big/small/long. They have heels you can borrow but I wish they had bigger / more mirrors.
Murzle
Thanks for sharing! I have an appointment in early April. I’m planning to try on dresses too, particularly because online the photos on the model and the lengths in the descriptions don’t seem to always match up. I need longer lengths so its great they have that on their radar.
Anon
My old boss “encouraged” me to sign up for the board of a local chapter of a specialized bar association. I went to two meetings and discovered the people were icky human beings I want nothing to do with. (I work in labor & employment and am firmly on the employee side – everyone on the board is firmly big business trying to crush the working man. I was disgusted when they sat around laughing at claimants’ stories during the last meeting. I mean, this is not a good fit.) I haven’t responded to any emails or participated in any meetings since – I’ve just ignored the organization completely. (FWIW, the organization has maybe 25 people on the board but only 40 active members overall – I’m not proud of ghosting them, but they’re fine without me.)
A month ago, I started a new job at a firm that does work on both sides, and what do you know, a few attorneys are involved with this organization. One of the partners – one I have no reason to interact with ever – just emailed me and wants to meet next week for a “casual, get to know you” lunch. I know he’s going to ask about the organization. How do I respond? I’ll own my ghosting, but need help on how to politely spin, “I’m morally opposed to everything the other board members stand for and want nothing to do with the organization ever, kthxbai.”
Anonymous
You need to get over your moral outrage at the fact that defense attorneys exist if you’re now at a firm that represents both sides. It makes you sound naive and immature. Just say you signed up and then just didn’t have the time to commit.
anon associate
Yep. You’ll also soon learn that a lot of claimants’ stories are crap. Some are not. Sorry, that’s just the truth. Acknowledging that reality does not require you to believe that all claimants’ stories are crap or that anti-labor policies are ok. So you can still hang on to your morals. Moreover, think of everything you’ll learn from exposure to this different perspective that could help the clients you’d rather help.
I also suspect that if you spend more time with these people you’ll realize they aren’t the monsters you’re making them out to be. The vast majority of defense attorneys I know are highly moral, empathetic people with integrity.
Anonymous
Um, if partners in your firm are involved with this organization, you shouldn’t express moral outrage about it at all, politely or otherwise. I like the answer given above to just say you didn’t have the time to commit to it. And prepare to get involved now.
Anonymous
Wow.
Anonymous
Agreed with the above posters. It sounds like you might need to evaluate your attitude either way, if your firm is doing work on both sides. Btw, not all employment defense attorneys are bad people – I’m truly a believer that there are some legitimate claims, but the vast majority of the claims I’ve defended against have been total BS. After practicing in this area for quite a while, it’s hard not to assume that most claims are BS. And telling war stories is just what attorneys do.
AB
You don’t need to get into that. “I went to a few meetings a few years ago, but I have been dedicating more of my marketing efforts to other organizations/ outlets.” And then pivot the conversation to stuff you actually like talking about. Or let him talk about the organization for a few minutes while politely nodding. A partner I work with keeps trying to get me to join a certain committee because he got business when he joined it 30 years ago. It was a big fat waste of time for me. When he brings it up, I smile and nod and change the subject.
Anonymous
This.
Senior Attorney
Yep.
a.n.o.n.
If he asks, white lie that you went to one meeting but schedule hasn’t permitted you to attend since. He’ll probably suggest you attend a meeting together, so be prepared for that.
Echoing what PPers said about the moral outrage … If you are of the “true believer”, employee is always right/employer is always wrong pattern …. why take a job at a firm that handles both sides?
I’m an experienced employer-side lawyer, and for the most part the people on our side are pretty decent people (at least no worse than lawyers as a whole, possibly better). I’m sure I have told “crazy claimant” stories, but they’d be along the lines of “this person blatantly lied under oath when there was evidence directly to the contrary” — not “haha, stoopid employees trying to assert their rights!” stories — so if it’s just a matter of war stories that aren’t inherently despicable… you’re going to have to adjust your expectations.
GAP Jeans Rec's
Just got an email boasting of the F&F sale at Gap. I am in desperate need of a decent pair of curvy jeans for my extreme pear bod. Anyone have experience with theirs? My last experience with theirs (or maybe Old Navy’s) is that they sagged by end of day and needed to be washed each wear. Can anyone share if this is still the case? TIA!
Anon
I am also an extreme pear and have two pairs of jeans from the Gap and I love them. They don’t sag at all and I wear them 3-4 times without washing them. The key is to buy pairs with slightly tight fits (not like give-me-a-muffin-top-tight, just fit snugly). They may be a little tight when I first put them on, but they stretch slightly within about 15 minutes and fit perfectly after that.
Jitterbug
Jeans are on sale at the Gap? Yaaaaas!
My jeans from there actually do feel a little loose by the end of the day, not falling off my butt loose but needing to pull them up a little, but I don’t feel like I need to wash after each wear unless I get them really sweaty or something. But the fit can’t be beat, they’re the perfect length for me.
Cb
My grandma and aunt set up savings accounts for each new child in the family and add money in lieu of gifts at birthdays and Christmas. My cousins’ kids have 529s set up but I’m based in the UK (though a US citizen). Any recommendations for this? Just a normal US savings account in my name / the babies’ name?
Diana Barry
It would be a custodial account. If they are in the US too, check out the rules for 529s and see if you can use those funds for people going to school outside the country.
Senior Attorney
Don’t put it in the babies’ names unless you want them to withdraw it all when they’re 12 to buy Taylor Swift tickets!
Anonymous
They’d have to be some seriously crafty and deceitful 12 year-olds. My college savings accounts were all in my name but my parents were very clear it was not “my money” and I never would have dreamed of touching it, nor would I have had any idea how to go about getting it even if I’d wanted to. How would a 12 year-old even get to a bank to withdraw the money?
Senior Attorney
Okay, the 12-year-old thing was hyperbole. But what about the 18 year old who finds the documentation and decides to take a trip to Europe instead of going to college? I just feel like it’s better not to tempt fate.
Anona
Is a kid who is adequately prepared for college really going to think a trip to Europe vs going to college is an either or situation? I didn’t foolishly spend my money as a teen and neither did any of my friends. Maybe it’s just how you’re raised?
Senior Attorney
It must be. That must be it. You got me.
Anonymous
I just don’t think putting college funds in a kid’s name is “tempting fate” unless you seriously don’t trust your kid. That’s how my parents did it, how we’re doing, and how all my friends are doing it. Kids know there would be huge consequences for taking the money for fun. It would be stealing, just like taking $100 cash from my purse would be. If you trust your kid not to steal from your purse, I think you can also trust them not to steal from the college fund.
Cb
Haha! I never even thought about that. I always had an account in my name (since the age of 10 or 12 or so) and yes, I did some silly things with that money, there might have been some ugg boots and designer handbags purchased when I went off to college. But it did teach me, in a relatively low stakes way, that actions have consequences. It would be different if it was a higher amount of money.
Senior Attorney
That’s all fine. I just feel like there can be any number of unintended consequences to putting the money in the child’s name, and honestly when you child is a toddler it never occurs to you that your child won’t be just as trustworthy as you and all your friends are.
Maybe it is indeed because I was raised badly (don’t deny it for a minute) but I shudder to think what would have happened if my drug-addict brother (the one who stole the Christmas money out of my mom’s dresser drawer that one time) had had a college fund in his own name. I’m sure you all will be much better parents than mine were…
OCAssociate
@SA – You made me giggle.
Anon
Or you could just have them send you checks and you deposit them in a separate savings account you’ve set up. Ours was just through our regular bank and I think technically I co-own it with my kid.
I’m in the US and have a relative that I don’t trust with SSNs, so we just said we weren’t sharing baby’s info, but if anyone gave $$ for birthdays or holidays, we’d put it in the savings account. Around age 3 of our oldest, we then set up a 529 and split any $$ 50/50 between the two accounts.
Thistle
What a bout Junior ISAs (JISAs). Tax free growth.
Cb
That’d be my preference but I think international bank transfers get pricey and complicated for relatively small amounts of money.
PBD
Can anyone recommend a good portable HEPA air filter/purifier that they like? For a space about 750-1000 sq ft. Looking to get rid of air pollutants (we live in a very urban area), allergens/dust, and also smoke smells (we unfortunately live next door to a couple smokers so sometimes smoke drifts into our place from their backyard if we have the windows open…). Thanks all!
nutella
Small question – we are registering for wedding stuff. I know to try to avoid nonstick for cooking, which is easy enough. But what about baking? It seems almost all bakeware is nonstick! I’m talking about cake pans, muffin tins, and baking sheets (not like glass and ceramic casserole dishes). Are there certain nonsticks to avoid and others that are OK? What about the aluminum ones or “aluminized steel” whatever that means? Or should we just go with non-nonstick baking sheets (seemingly the only non-nonstick bakeware I can find) and let the rest be nonstick since realistically more ‘scraping’ would happen on a baking sheet than in a cake pan? (Would love Williams-Sonoma or Crate & Barrel recs.)
Anonymous
Why would you completely avoid non-stick? There are certain rules about using non-stick cookware, like you shouldn’t use it for cooking at very hot temperatures and you need to replace it when it gets visibly worn out, but it’s fine in general. Unless you have a huge amount patience for scrubbing soiled pans, you want non-stick cookware and bakeware. We registered for a beautiful, expensive stainless steel cookware set for our wedding and haven’t used it more than a couple of times because neither of us can succeed in getting any food to cook in those pans without sticking horribly (and while we’re not expert chefs, we’re definitely competent cooks who are capable of making yummy food). I buy cheap Target non-stick pots and pans now so I don’t have to feel guilty when it gets worn and we have to throw it out.
October
I just want to put in a plug for one non-stick frying pan for making eggs. We are generally All Clad/cast iron skillet people, but having one non-stick has been so helpful. Just replace it when it scratches.
And for baking…. I don’t bake nearly as often as I cook (and I do bake fairly regularly) so I wasn’t as concerned there. And a cake that sticks in the pan is a true disaster. Line your muffin tins, use a non-stick baking sheet, and use parchment paper on the rest if want.
Anonymous
Eh, I use my all-clad stainless steel for eggs all the time (scrambled usually). I add a bit of oil and don’t let the egg harden/dry on. But I’ve never had an issue getting the pan clean.
ALX emily
I use regular aluminum (Nordicware mostly) baking sheets and cake pans. I use a Sil-pat on the baking sheets and usually spray the cake pan with Bakers Joy spray, or line with a parchment paper round if the recipe calls for that. These are the baking sheets I have: https://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Ware-Natural-Aluminum-Commercial/dp/B000G0KJG4/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1490291500&sr=1-1&keywords=nordic+ware+half+sheet
That said, I think Cooks Illustrated rates the Williams Sonoma gold nonstick pans very highly (and my MIL loves them, for sure) so if you want to try nonstick, I would suggest that.
Anonymous
The gold touch line from Williams Sonoma is great!
NOLA
I hate non-stick bakeware – it overbrowns and I just use parchment paper anyway. I’d suggest looking at Sur la Table.
Aunt Jamesina
Nordic Ware natural aluminum bakeware is AWESOME! My cookie sheets are heavy-duty, don’t warp, and will last a lifetime, unlike nonstick ones.
Sports bikini
Any recommendations for a supportive athletic bathing suit? I’m looking for a bikini top in an athletic cut for triathlon training, but most athletic suits are a pull-on sports bra style, in S/M/L sizing. I’m an odd size that really doesn’t work with S/M/L (30DDD), so I need something that either comes in bra sizes or is super adjustable. I also prefer something decently thick or with flexible molded cups to reduce show-through. Preferably under $50.
Super specific request, but I’d appreciate any suggestions!
KateMiddletown
I have a few go-tos but never under $50. I’m not nearly as athletic as you, but similar size and I don’t think I’ve found a good suit for under $100 in the last few years. Land’s End is my regular at the pool with the kids (good coverage, also what the other moms wear) and I like Freya for beach time (they make the only bras that I wear too.) Athleta and Title IX have great swimwear, but I would be shocked to find it at that price point. Good luck and please let me know if you find something!
Anonymous
I wear a black sports bra from Athleta or LLL to swim laps in – a pull on style for D cups and a high neck that has lots of coverage. They look identical to swim tops and are the same type of fabric.
Anon
Look at SwimOutlet.
Aba
Seconding the Freya/Panache suggestion, but look on Amazon for last season’s styles at a discount. Lands End has always been great about that DD/DDD range, too.
Fishie
Third Freya/Panache fan. I also have an Athleta top that I really like. You can always buy the fancy tops and then bottoms at Target.
Gray
Female in a an almost exclusively male workplace, mostly engineers and IT. Very casual for the most part. In my culture women dress very practically anyway.
This is probably all in my head and not an actual problem but here goes. I would love to wear feminine pieces to work but I’m scared that it will be interpreted negatively. The few times anyone has commented on my outfit in seven years was when I was wearing a) a thick knee lenghth skirt “you should wear more skirts” b) a blazer “wow where are you going” c) knee length skirt, modest heels “we needed some eye-candy here”. The solution is of course to stop caring. Those comments are harmless and jokey. PC is not really a thing in my country.
So I try to satisfy my need for something feminine by wearing basic make-up, having long hair and fine jewellery. What else is subtle enough not to draw attention?
Rainbow Hair
Have you considered lighting the people who make those comments on fire? (Sorry, idk, that is infuriating and I’m really sorry you’re being called ‘eye candy’ at work.)
Anonymous
Yeah, seriously, what culture is this if you don’t mind saying? Afghanistan? I’ve only ever worked in the US and Latin America (which is not really known for being the most PC and woman-friendly), and I would go directly to HR if someone said this to me, jokey or not. Of course, if this is not an option, I think the answer is to not dress femininely, grrr.
Anonymous
not the OP, but these kinds of comments would be normal in many German workplaces. But then again, the new POTUS doesn’t bother with PC all that much.
Gray
Finland. I think they’re trying to be funny. They just happen to hit my insecurities.
Anona
I think it’s appropriate to call people out for sexism in a casual environment. If you make it jokey it sounds like office banter, but everyone knows what you mean.
Gray
I never managed a smart comeback. They’re normal, kind people and I like most of them.
Anona
I think it’s all tone, kind of like how you ribe your siblings. Like if you like skirts so much, you should try wearing one! I will let you borrow it! Or saying wait, what do you mean by that? so that people would get embarrassed trying to come up with something funning to respond. It sounds immature when I type it out, but we were all pretty closely knit and friendly outside of work. I think I people were more thoughtful of what they said than if I didn’t say anything. But they were all guys around my own age, I don’t know what I would have said if they were much older.
Gray
I was too surprised at the time. And I don’t really even see them that much at work. I’ll be mentally prepared next time I dare to wear something that signals female
Marie Curie
Physicist here. I wore skirts to the lab a few times during a very hot summer and definitely got comments. They weren’t negative (or harassing) but more surprised. FWIW I work at a US National Lab, so these places do exist in the US. I do wear blazers with jeans all the time. (I think people assume I’m wearing them for warmth.) A skirt, blazer and heels all together sound very dressed up for most lab environments. It’s up to you to decide if you want to deal with the repercussions of violating the unwritten dress code. It wasn’t for me but I have your back whatever you decide.
Marie Curie
Also, I know my co-workers think they’re completely above judging people by their appearance, although, of course, they’re not. If someone is rude to you I suggest implying that you thought they were above caring about what other people wore. After all, if no one cares that Bill, who works down the hall, wears a holey sweater then no one should care that you’re wearing heels.
Gray
I only wore low heels, a skirt and blazer to the interview. Low heels and the skirt weren’t dressed up, neither was the blazer with jeans. I guess I’m struggling with being a woman surrounded by men. That I need to wear ugly clothes not to look like a flirt?
I guess what is called the architect look here would be interpreted as non-flirty and some women at my workplace dress that way. Boxy black dresses, geometric jewelry, bright lipstick but no mascara, masculine flats. Think cos catalogue.
I want to wear fabulous stuff but nobody to comment on it. I’m ridiculous!
Marie Curie
You’re not ridiculous, but we live in an imperfect world. I think you have two choices: wear what you want and deal with comments (which will dissipate as people get used to you) or dress ‘in uniform’ and figure out how to like it, or at least live with it. Being a woman surrounded by men can be lonely, but science also has its rewards (interesting problems and a comfortable living). Actually, one reason I came to this blog was so I could ‘talk’ to women every day, since it doesn’t happen naturally every day.
Echo
Wearing feminine clothing can be a statement of power! I say wear what you like (professionally) and take no crap from anyone who comments suggestively on it. Go for the pink blazer!
Gray
Yes! Where can I buy the personality and confidence to match?
And also, how can I be one of the guys and be a woman? I work with one group after another, so I need to prove my worth to new people all the time.
Thank you corporette for providing free therapy!
Wendy
+1
nasty woman
I’m on team dress how you want and own it (recognizing it’s not always that easy). I worry about this too. Try focusing on your fabrics- I feel so pretty and feminine and professional and just all around like a put together rockstar when I wear a beautiful silk shell. But, they’re so classic workplace that they don’t read girly. A fine gold necklace/pendant that lays just on the top of a cream or navy silk (honestly any color) is delicate and pretty.
Also I refuse to cut my hair (bra strap length), and do fine jewelry. Shoes with a nice detail (gold band on the heel, cap toe) work too.
Sloan Sabbith
How do you make yourself sound and look more assertive? I’ve had an extremely tough week, client-wise, and I want to be more assertive, both in how I’m interacting with clients in person and over the phone. I’m okay at setting boundaries (“Mr. X, I understand you’re upset, but if you’re going to yell at me, we’ll have to have this conversation later;” “Ms. Y, please stop swearing at me- I can’t help you if you’re going to treat me like that,”) but I think I’m still giving off a vibe of “I’m young and easy to get the upper hand over.”
Particularly, ways to sit and things to say when phone calls are starting to go sideways.
Anonymous
I wouldn’t be using those particular lines with clients. It comes across as pretty condescending. If you are having these problems with people routinely, I would consider if it is the way you are delivering information and fix that.
I worked in a legal aid position and the people were on the whole very polite. When they weren’t, I assumed it’s because they were upset at events beyond my control (because honestly their lives were rough), I didn’t take it personally, and I didn’t threaten them with removing our services if they kept “treating me like that.” Lawyers have ethical constraints on when they can withdraw, as I’m sure you know. No doubt the rare case comes along where the attorney-client relationship breaks down completely but again, this shouldn’t be happening a lot.
TLDR: I would work on just being calm and polite and refrain from “setting boundaries.”
Sloan Sabbith
My clients’ lives are rough, I’m very aware of that. I’m aware it’s problems beyond my control. And my organization has an expectation that regardless, we set boundaries for clients who are treating us badly. These are direct scripts I’ve been taught to use, and I’ve been told I need to seem more confident when speaking with clients. I am calm, polite, and still going to let clients know that cussing me out, screaming at me, and threatening me aren’t okay.
I’m fully aware of withdrawal constraints. These are often referrals who are unhappy I can’t assist. I’m not going to drop a case because someone is mean to me, but I’m not going to be at risk of being physically assaulted (as occurred this week) because a client is unhappy there is no legal recourse. So, I’ll ask again: I need to be more assertive, both in person and over the phone. How?
Anonymous
I would ask for clarification from your boss. Or observe the other people in your office and try to emulate them. If you up-talk or have vocal fry, stop.
Anonymous
I was actually going to comment that these scripts look like a good start. As more assertiveness seems warranted in your case, you can try talking even less. The underlying strategy being that the more you explain, the weaker you appear.
Mr. X, if you’re going to yell at me, we’ll have to have this conversation later.
Ms. Y, I can’t help you if you’re going to treat me like that.
Ellen
OP, you must stand tall, and speak loudly. Especialy if you are in court, be very assertive and do NOT accept any kind of comment from men who say that women should be more demure. FOOEY on men that think we are just cute objects meant to be seen but NOT heard. Au contrare, we are women and we are INVINCIBLE, according to Mom. She knows b/c she married Dad when he kept looking for a wife. I want to be just like her when it comes to landing a man and TAMING him.
Kids
I’m beginning to think more and more that I don’t want children. My spouse knows this has been a possibility since the first day we meet–obviously not literally, but one of the first things he knew about me–but I’m worried about bringing up the topic.
We are both getting older and I just like my life and my career a lot
Kids
Oops: *And don’t want to make sacrifices in either or change things up.
Advice?
Gray
Have the conversation now. Waiting will not make it easier. You both deserve the life you want.
Are you approaching the end of fertility? Especially then I think you can’t delay the discussion. If you’re 25, you still have time to mull it over.
An anecdote you’ve probably heard a lot (because… hormones, biology, I don’t know). We had agreed not to have kids, no interest on either side. Then at 29 I started a strange grieving process for the child I would never have. I never got far enough to actully picture in my head what family life would be like. But still the feeling was so strong I told my husband that I REALLY want a child. He stalled for a few years, we traveled a lot. And now we have a family. I sometimes forget that I’m a mother when I get up early in the morning and I still feel in awe that this is my life now.
Had I not had that strange crisis I would probably happily be travelling every chance I get. No wrong options:)
Anon
Try reposting at the top of the next thread. I’m in a similar boat and would also like to see people’s thoughts on this.
Anon
You probably posted this too late for responses in this thread and I would second the suggestion to re-post. I would suggest that our age would be relevant since it helps people evaluate your time-line.