Wednesday’s Workwear Report: Double Folds Origami Neckline Sheath

267 Comments

1. Dresses like this always look so cute, but I never buy them because I worry the neckline will look weird under a blazer. Is this the case, or am I overthinking it?

   I am going on a 5-day business trip and can’t figure out what to plan to wear. Advice? Everything has to fit into a carry-on, and I have to be business formal all 5 days. Should I bring two suits, or try to eke by with just one? I’ll be meeting with one group of people the first two days, different group the third, and still another department the last two days, so no one would know if I repeated an outfit once or twice, but laundry and drycleaning won’t be available during the trip.

   1. Definitely two suits. Without drycleaning/laundry you would be in a tight spot without a second suit.

   2. I would bring two suits or at least a suit plus a dress that can go under the suit jacket. If you do choose to bring only one suit, do not wear it (or even just its jacket) on the plane. If you get all sweaty or someone spills something on you, there goes your only jacket/suit.

      1. That’s a good point. Maybe instead of bringing a full second suit, I could bring one suit, just the jacket of a second one, and a dress that could be worn under either jacket.

         1. That’s what I do for similar trips. I also toss in a second skirt in case I spill something that can be worn with either jacket.

   3. I tried this recently and found (after I got there) that I couldn’t wear my dresses under jackets that weren’t suit jackets b/c the sleeves weren’t lined or some weird bunching resulted (mainly from 3/4 sleeve dresses — I could hold down the sleeves of long-sleeved dresses and saw the non-bunching as the one redeeming feature of sleeveless dresses).

      At any rate, do a trial run of everything before you go.

   4. I would bring:

      Two Suits (wear one on the plane if needed), probably black/navy/grey (one skirt suit), One Sheath Dress, two silk shells or blouses that can be worn without a jacket, one lightweight sweater. Also pack: capri leggings, tank, loose cardigan for after-hours relaxing clothes that look vaguely work appropriate. I’d do one pair of heels you pack (nude heels) plus a pair of casual sneakers/flip flops for when you’re not working.

      Wear on the plane: Ankle pants with a knit shell and a cardigan plus a dressy scarf that can be used during the week.

      Day 1: Suit 1 w/ one of the silk shells
      Day 2: Sheath dress with suit jacket 2
      Day 3: Suit 1 skirt with silk shell and cardigan
      Day 4: Suit 2 w/ silk shell
      Day 5: Sheath dress with Cardigan

      The key is to make everything match. For me, I would do a navy suit, a grey suit, an ivory shell, a patterned cobalt and white and black shell that I have, a black cardigan and a cobalt dress. I personally would stick to one pair of earrings and a necklace. Good luck!

      1. To clarify, when I say ‘vaguely work appropriate’, I mean ‘If I run into my coworkers or clients while in the hall of the hotel or at Starbucks to get an early coffee, I won’t be horribly embarrassed.’

         1. Thank you so much for your detailed options! The good news is it’s not a conference or something similar where lots of people are traveling, so I don’t have to worry about running into people at the hotel or after hours, but it’s a good point that while traveling you never know what will come up.

            1. The bad news is that I don’t have a gray suit at the moment and don’t have time to get a new one tailored… navy and black have somewhat less overlap, but I’m sure I can find enough that matches.

            2. Navy and black both go nicely with yellows/reds/pinks/creams/greys, so you could go more in that direction.

               I now ALWAYS bring a pair of leggings and a not-awful tank and cardigan or other jacket after one memorable work trip where I realized that my choices for ‘what to wear’ for a 9PM run to CVS were down to the same suit I’d been wearing for 3 days or the ancient running shorts plus spaghetti strap tank (my pajamas) with a cashmere cardigan…

         2. Can you give specific recommendations for which suits / dresses / cardigans you use for this (or store or brand / suiting material / sleeve length)?

            I am so bad at this that a mere packing list won’t do — UPC codes would be ideal, but I need a new suit and might opt for something that will be very road tested and help on the road for many multi-day work trips I have coming up.

            THANK YOU!

            1. I would use whatever brand works best on your body.

               For me (and I know some people hate their stuff and don’t like the quality at all), suiting from the Limited fits me perfectly with zero alterations needed. It’s also pretty forgiving in that it doesn’t wrinkle immediately and I can machine wash it if needed. I’m sure somebody else could recommend a nicer/better brand. I will say my JCrew suiting NEEDS to be ironed if I’ve packed it, so do with that what you will.

               I LOVE my silk shirts from Banana, but sometimes they’re prone to wrinkling. Although I try and avoid poly, I have a silk-look shell from Talbots that can literally be thrown into a ball and still look nice the next day.

               My sheath dresses right now are almost exclusively jewel toned Calvin Klein dresses that I picked up at TJ Maxx for $40 or less. I don’t like to deal with the bunching of 3/4 sleeve dresses, so I do sleeveless under jackets. Cardigans are… looks like a combo of places with Banana Republic Outlet being heavily represented.

            2. Completely agree with Calvin Klein sheaths from TJM/Marshalls. I’m wearing one right now!

               I’m a big fan of the Tahari suiting line (available at Macys and other major department stores). The pieces all work well together, there are a lot of options (classic black suits, fun suits, etc), they’re great quality for the price and tend to wear well, you can often find stuff on sale or through the standard Macys sales, and they also have nice shells/blouses. It also travels well. Tahari also has suiting dresses (I wore one yesterday).

2. I need to get a lot better at reading graphs and data interpretation. Does anyone have resources they can point me to? I’m pretty good at this already, so I’m looking for resources that aren’t super basic. Thanks!

   1. Interpreting the statistics or just understanding how information is visualized? As a qualitative person in an increasingly quantitative world, I test my understanding by trying to put the graph into words. Can I explain the relationship shown?

      I’m knee deep in marking essays right now and it is shocking how bad people are at putting together graphs so it is no wonder you struggle to interpret them.

   2. I bought a book called Say It With Charts by Gene Zelazny when I started a role that required me to do (and thus develop) a lot more presentations to teach me how to make better charts. I skimmed it and return to it every time I get stuck, and not only did it help me make much better charts but I felt like it also made me much better at making sense of other people’s graphs. As Cb said, so many people are terrible at chart making (myself previously included) that the problem might not be you.

   3. Flowing data is a blog that i love. It forces you to look at novel data visualizations and start to work through the process of what the creator was trying to show.

   4. Look for a university stats/qualitative/quantitative book. I was actually just having a similar problem, for some reason companies like to hire computer scientists for stats jobs that they are wildly unqualified for. I think the biggest key is knowing the types of data, their corresponding types of analysis and WHY.

3. What are you favorite online clothing retailers? Preferably not places that are in the mall. Looking for more boutique style places. Thanks!

   1. Yay! Finaly I am back — I love this dress, Kat. I am suprised that some peeople do NOT like the collar! You always have good pick’s!

      As for the OP, my favorite on line retailer’s is Anne Klein, Zara and Lord and Taylor. And of course Nordstrom’s. But just come here on a holiday and Kat will have a real good list for us.

      I have NOT been p’osting this week b/c Grandma Leyeh has been in the hospital recoopuerating over Bunnion Surgery, so I have been there and not posting. Grandma Leyeh insisted I keep her company b/c she is on lookout for a Doctor to date me. I DID meet a few MD’s and other MED technician’s who wanted to get to know me, but NOTHING solid yet. I have to go back later, and meet her podieatrist’s son, who is an MD at Lincoln Hospital.

      The manageing partner has been pestering me to get back to work, b/c I have been OUT all week — big deal, it’s now 3 day’s. But I DO miss the HIVE and your insight. I hope to get back to my apartement and Manhatan — FOOEY on Weschester! It is DULL here. Mabye I will marry an MD and live on Park Avenue! YAY!!!

   2. Love MM LaFleur; like stitch fix but for office ladies

      1. I have a crush on all MM LaFleur things at the moment. Would love for a pop-up store to come to my area or to visit them in NYC to try on in person.

   3. Second MM LaFleur for workwear. Their dresses are SO comfortable.

      I love Cuyana as well – lots of lovely, well made pieces (although a tad bit pricey).

      Everlane silk is surprisingly good quality, and I also like their cashmere sweaters as well.

      For weekend wear, I also really like Emerson Fry. I’ve been buying their clothes for years, and they have become some of my go-to pieces.

4. Wanted to let you know that I made an appointment with Kesley Pinker at Trunk Club on your recommendation – looking forward to it! They were very interested in who referred me when I called (I told them it was an anonymous referral from this s!te). I’m sure if you follow up with Kelsey and let her know who you are, you could get the credit.

   Thanks for your help! And let me know if that doesn’t work and we can sort out some sort of anonymous email address exchange.

   1. You’re welcome! I hope it works out for you. I appreciate the referral credit offer — I just had such a good experience that I was excited to share. Make sure you give it 2 appointments. The first appointment will largely be about her sussing out your style and what works well for your body type, and then the second one was where she nailed it. I’m actually wearing a dress and a blazer today that she picked out for me!

      1. That’s very good to know – I’ll definitely give it two appointments. She and I already chatted, and I found her to be very thoughtful. I also didn’t realize the service was affiliated with Nordstrom, which is great. The best of both worlds, really. Thanks again.

5. Yesterday’s post about moving or not moving for one year got me thinking about long term vs short term goals/planning. It would be a PITA to be apart sometimes in the first year of marriage but I probably would stay put because it seemed like her job offer would be a good fit for longer term goal of her DH having the primary career in their family (and presumably her taking on more on the home front).

   But I also like the Lean In idea of not leaving before you leave. How do you all reconcile those? I never think more than 2-3 years out except for financial planning – can’t decide if I should be thinking longer term. How long term do you plan?

   1. I was a bit saddened that so many responses yesterday were leaning strongly towards putting your career before your marriage. Especially as alternative was not being unemployed or having no career at all. Like all things in life, marriage comes at a cost. And sometimes the cost is a slower pace in your career than you could have if you could have it all.
      Do I lean in? You bet! At all cost? No way! There´s a (monetary) value in leaning in, but there is also a (non-monetary) value in consciously choosing not to and focusing on other important things in life.

      1. I didn’t feel that way because her husband might come back to original City after his fellowship! To me, knowing hospitals/residents/faculty hiring decisions, that’s one reason to stay and if he chooses another City post fellowship, I would move then.

      2. I did temporary long distance with my husband so I could stay at a job I loved and he could take a job he loved that was only available in that one specific location. I vehemently disagree that this meant we were putting our careers before our marriage. My marriage is absolutely my number one priority, but as a couple commenters noted yesterday, not being miserable at your job translates into being a happier person and a more supportive spouse. I know I would have been a terrible wife if I’d moved with him and had to take a terrible job, because I would have been resentful of him. If you had told me “quit or job or lose your husband” I would have quit the job without a second thought. My marriage is my #1 priority, but being temporarily apart was better for both our careers and as a result also better for our marriage and general life happiness. I also think being long distance strengthened our relationship. (We also had the resources to fly cross-country almost every weekend; I recognize not everyone can/wants to do that but it worked for us and I find the idea that I put my career before my marriage offensive — not everyone defines an ideal marriage the same way and for us being temporarily apart M-F to make the rest of our lives significantly better was ideal, given the circumstances we were in.)

         1. +1000

         2. couldn’t agree more

      3. I may be biased since husband has been travelling more than 50% of the time since we got married (last October), but I don’t even view that situation as the OP putting her career before her marriage. I know this sounds harsh, but I feel that if you can’t be apart from your spouse for certain amounts of time, your relationship could probably improve in the strength department (I’m, of course, not recommending being apart for months at a time).

         We are currently on an every-other-week schedule, and here is my experience with the situation: it was definitely not so easy/wonderful at first, but now that we’ve been doing it for 4 months, we’re both absolutely comfortable with it and I don’t think it affects our bond negatively at all. It’s actually sort of fun to be able to look forward to him coming home every other week, and it’s also nice to be able to have time to myself. It also forces me to be able to entertain myself and build stronger female friendships.

      4. Maybe not unemployed but her alternatives sounded like underemployment.

         I work the schedule many were suggesting for her yesterday (M-Tr, sometimes through F, sometimes only to W) in a different location from my spouse. It works out great for us because it allows both of us to focus on our work during the week, and our relationship and selves during the weekend. It means that neither of us have to feel guilty about being at work late so we can’t spend time together. I know this pressure from one of his coworker’s wives that he come home and hang out with her gave him a very negative reputation in the office as someone who wasn’t committed.

         We’re very happy in this arrangement. Home stuff does slide a bit (apartment isn’t always clean, DH usually eats takeout during the week, we’re not stocked with groceries), but that is fine for us and we can afford to out-source that stuff. I would not switch this until kids were in the picture.

      5. My husband and I live at opposite ends of the country, and we will for another 1-4 years. Obviously I’d prefer a different arrangement, but we find many ways to put our marriage first. He’s started a new job and is chasing his dreams, and I want him to be able to do that. It’s a great act of love that I’m not making an issue of him going and not following just so I can feel resentful about leaving my current career path behind. I’m doing similar over here, which is also something he wants for me. There’s a lot of ways to put your marriage first. This may not be for you, but it doesn’t necessarily amount to choosing career over marriage

         1. My husband and I live in different cities, and have for the last 3 years. It works well for us. Most people don’t get it, but we don’t worry about that. We are fine with it, so nothing else really matters.

      6. I didn’t comment yesterday, but I agree with you Saddened. I think there’s always another job to be had. I’m the first to say “stay employed, stay in the workforce, don’t drop out” but moving for a spouse doesn’t automatically mean job dissatisfaction or career non-success. I also think relationships really need “care and feeding”. That means being there for the every day – the little ups, the downs, the exhaustions, etc. I’d personally choose to do whatever was necessary to always live with my husband in the same place. Also, as a lawyer, the OP from yesterday has a lot more options that were presented – she can hang out a shingle, teach, work in a local firm, temp, find another company to go in-house with later. There’s a lot more options in life than “this job, this moment” even if it can feel that way.

         1. Not necessarily though, depending on the place. She may need to wait many, many months to be licensed in New City, for example.

            I think the very temporary nature of the move is what threw most people, especially those familiar with residency/academic/similar job trajectories.

   2. I think you can plan for the longer term in terms of having an idea of possible career options and what things you could do in the short term to make those longer-term options viable, while also acknowledging that there is no shame in changing your mind or deciding to do something different down the road. I think a lot of the reason people were hesitating to advise her to move was because it was such a temporary move, it was likely that they would end up back in the same city, and it seemed likely that she would really have been putting her career on ice for a year if she did move. I think if she had better career options for that year, or if there was another reason for leaning out (health, kids, ill parents, wants to change careers, etc), people would have been more sympathetic. But it seemed like she really would have liked the job, and that it could have been a really great thing for them both in the long term.

      Not exactly the same situation, but I have a friend who sort of threw herself completely into the role of doctor’s wife, through multiple moves and kids etc, and now she is trying to have a career of her own and it is bringing up a lot of issues in their marriage.

6. I’m curious – what degrees or professions do you admire/do you think represent the smartest people? I was having a conversation with someone who really made it clear that she admires talented lawyers who argue in front of the Supreme Court. It’s not necessarily a goal of hers, but it’s a career that she thinks proves that you are just a really intelligent human being. For me, it’s people with MD/Phd combos – I just think those people are both successful and educated from the research and clinical sides and they tend to have really cool jobs! Anyone else?

   1. I don’t think that smart means just one thing.

      I admire one person I know who works 2.5 jobs and takes the bus / gets dropped off by a spouse (and has 2 kids in non-neighborhood schools and they don’t drive yet but are teenagers who take other another bus after taking Bus #1 together). It is like coordinating D-Day (to me), every day.

      I am really good at killing roaches. I didn’t grow up doing this. I don’t like doing this. But given my spouse’s soprano-scream flip-outs, you’d think it was some act of cunning, skill, and heroism. I’m not going to disabuse him of this, but perception is not always reality.

      1. Ha! Your second paragraph cracked me up. My husband is the wolf spider/tarantula killer in our household, and he’s my hero for it.

      2. My husband (who works in a role that does not require a college degree and who didn’t grow up knowing many people with advanced degrees) once told me “I used to think lawyers were all really really smart people. And then I met your coworkers.” It was a nice reminder that sometimes the perception of a degree or a group of people is far from the reality. He said the scariest thing about realizing some lawyers are just regular people willing to go to school for three extra years was that it meant some doctors are just regular people willing to go to school for [many more] years.

         1. What is really scary is when you work with judges (lots and lots of them all over the country) and come to the same realization.

            1. When I was first on the bench and took my husband to a judges’ social event, in the car on the way home he said “holy cow, I always thought judges were so special and smart and everything, but it turns out they’re just regular people!” I said “yeah, I know. But I’m gonna need you to keep that to yourself…”

   2. I read a New Yorker article several years ago that claimed that people who are just smart become lawyers and doctors, and people who are really smart get Ph.D.s and become researchers. As someone with a J.D. and advanced training in the social sciences who works with a lot of J.D.s and Ph.D.s, I think there’s definitely something to that. But I also agree with your friend that it takes an exceptional person to argue in front of the Supreme Court. It requires not just intelligence, but also the ability to think on one’s feet.

      1. Wow, that makes perfect sense to me based on the people I know who have chosen either path. It’s a generalization, of course, but maybe that’s what I was getting at in my original post. I know a LOT of smart lawyers, but the people I think are SUPER smart tend to be researchers or people with boring jobs they don’t like, but a very rich inner life/philosophy/artistic side.

      2. What a classist position. Maybe super smart people become lawyers and doctors because they have undergrad debt to pay off and they know they’ll have to support their parents one day. Or maybe they want to start a family before they’re 35. Ph.D.s are inherently costly; even if you can get the degree paid for and a small stipend to live off of, you’re still giving up years of your earning power to ultimately make less than you would have if you’d gone into law or medicine. The notion that people make career decisions based on ability and not financial need is just ludicrous.

         1. Also, smart people want to do different things – not all smart people want to be researchers. Some want to be doctors or lawyers or, you know, some other profession entirely.

         2. This. There are a lot of reasons for not choosing a PhD (like five or six years of your life, and uncertain career prospects).

            While a moderately smart person can get a JD or MBA, there are also exceptionally brilliant people who go that route.

            But I think the whole idea of “which degree shows your super-smartness” to be annoying because it’s all about what you *do* with the brain you are given.

            1. Agreed completely. Being raised in academia and then working in an academic environment as an adult definitely eliminated any impression that people with PhDs, as a group, were exceptionally brilliant.

         3. I think the point of the story is that Ph.D’s are generally smarter than lawyers, not that all smart people get post-grad degrees.

            1. And I didn’t find the story compelling.

      3. Eh, I think it’s a not-all-rectangles-are-squares kind of situation. In order to be a successful academic, you need to be super smart, with insatiable curiosity and a brilliant mind, but a lot of super smart people (I’m dating one) decide to leave academia to pursue more lucrative careers.

         Also remember that in essence, the brain is a muscle. The people whose jobs require them to think creatively and investigate new ideas (researchers) get better at it, while the people whose jobs require them to perfectly perform the nuances of their individual specialities (doctors and lawyers) get better at that.

      4. I have a PHD but definitely don’t agree that researchers are smarter than practitioners. For one thing, as has been pointed out, often the sorting of who gets to pursue a research degree and who needs to get working earlier comes down to financial factors (and maybe motives to teach, spend a lot of time alone, or have a prestigious title) rather than aptitude. Secondly, I’ve met a lot of people in both categories, and I haven’t seen any pattern in analytic skills, intellectual rigor, or diligence.

      5. “I read a New Yorker article several years ago that claimed that people who are just smart become lawyers and doctors, and people who are really smart get Ph.D.s and become researchers”

         Ha! Oh please. There a million things that could drive a person to choose becoming a doctor or lawyer rather than a researcher: not wanting to deal with “publish or perish,” the well-known difficulties in finding viable opportunities to actually *do* research–unless adjunct life is for you, the comparatively low pay, or even the fact that actually practicing law or medicine just seems appealing to people. Of course, it takes a “really smart” person to get a Ph.D. and become a researcher, but that doesn’t meant that *all* really smart people become researchers (logic 101, anyone?).

         “I know a LOT of smart lawyers, but the people I think are SUPER smart tend to be researchers or people with boring jobs they don’t like, but a very rich inner life/philosophy/artistic side.”

         This is also ridiculous- I know a ton of smart lawyers and a ton of smart researchers, and I preceive no difference in the inner lives of these people as a whole. Most of the highly talented lawyers I know have a serious artistic hobby. It’s ridiculous to suggest that “lawyers” don’t have rich inner lives/artistic sides.

         1. Well, back to “logic 101,” no one said that lawyers don’t have rich inner lives/artistic sides. You sound a bit defensive.

            1. Yeah, I like to defend against ridiculous and illogical propositions. Sounding defensive doesn’t mean I’m wrong. Also, it was implied from the comment that was directly comparing lawyers and researchers.

      6. I find this to be a weird question and vaguely insulting (I’m an MD).

         1) how are you measuring intelligence here? Capacity to perform well on an IQ test? Impact factor of publications? Whether you personally find conversation with them engaging?
         2) People develop the skills they work at. So PhDs become better at research and publishing. Docs become better at distilling and applying information. None of these skills define who is “smart.” Maybe you can develop an oncogenic mouse, and I can perform microvascular surgery- can we really say one or the other of us is smarter? We are probably both intelligent enough to do either of these tasks if we were to dedicate the time.

         Lastly- I didn’t go into medicine because I can make more money in medicine than research (although that is probably true). I went into it because surgery is fun, and I get to do tangible, hands-on work with the instant gratification of seeing the good I do in the world every day. I have worked in a lab and currently turn out clinical research (MDs at my academic institution also publish or perish) and I personally don’t get as much satisfaction out of research, whereas in the operating room I get to cure cancer every day on an individual scale.

         Can we just accept that people value different things and different experiences without needing to determine who is more intelligent? Or if you really want to investigate this- define the terms so they are measurable.

         1. Your description of hands on work with tangible results for your patients is one of the main reasons I wanted to change careers to medicine. Ultimately, 3/4 through premed prereqs, I decided that the cost to my family and my medium term happiness would be too great. Opportunity cost of med school + residency with young kids, not to mention the strain on my marriage and lost income… It was too much. I don’t think my degrees or career field (both of which are unremarkable) have anything to say about my intelligence or lack thereof. I score high on IQ tests and am curious about almost everything, but lack decisiveness, drive, and follow-through to get an advanced degree or become “expert” in anything. My job is very conducive to my desired lifestyle, though, so I guess it says a lot about my priorities.

   3. After listening yesterday to the coverage of Scott Kelly returning from the International Space Station I was reminded of just how incredible (and brave!) astronauts are. What a job!

      1. And there are two of him!

         What a nice famous-twin example compared to those guys from The Social Network.

      2. I was going to say this too! I’m currently reading Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield’s book ‘An Astronaut’s Guide to Life on Earth’ and I am absolutely amazed at how intelligent he is. And humble & funny too – so far it’s a great book.

         1. Commander Hadfield is amazing!

   4. I thought that Debi Thomas was the woman: Olympic medalist, Stanford, medical school (I am none of the above, but I can ice skate a bit and have a medical degree from google, same as most people).

      She is sure smart, but a lot of other unfortunate things from a WaPost article I read last week.

      Smart is many things, but IIRC from my symbolic logic class, it is necessary (?) but not sufficient.

      1. LOL medical degree from Google. My hypochondriac husband is working on his Google MD degree!

   5. I don’t really get that kind of thinking in terms of degrees/professions. A lawyer arguing in front of supreme court is impressive, but some people have a degree in law, yet are not so impressive as a person. Same goes for researchers, there are good ones and bad ones. If the profession-name signifies having risen through tough competition (not just a degree-holder, but the best of the best), it is more impressive. Astronaut would fall into this category. But generally, single projects/achievements are more helpful for me in forming an opinion.

      1. Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel, but he put his pants on one leg at a time. I do not believe he had any educational credentials though by today’s standards.

         1. Neither did my Grandma. She was awesome.
            My uncle has a Ph.D. and is a jerk (and basically homeless and addicted to who-knows-what). Go figure, smarty-pants…

   6. I think it is dangerous to make assumptions that X degree or Y profession automatically equals intelligent, and lack thereof equals less intelligent.

      My family includes JDs, MDs, PhDs, and MD/PhDs. One of the most intelligent and well-spoken (and unassuming to boot) members of my family is my uncle. He didn’t go to college. He recently retired after 40 years driving a big rig for UPS. He spent his workdays (driving) listening to everything he could – books on tape and radio to start, then satellite radio (bbc! all the things!). He knows SO MUCH about SO MANY topics and it is awesome. And he has zero degrees.

      PS – he retired at 60, cash-flowed his daughter’s 4-year private liberal arts college education, and saved enough for retirement that he could conceivably withdraw an amount identical to his monthly take-home pay every month for the rest of his life, even if he lives to 110. So that is impressive as well.

      1. Yes, I don’t think profession correlates exactly to intelligence.

         If that was the case, then white men would be the smartest people on earth since they are predominantly over-represented in the professions represented. Instead, I think they are just the most likely to be able to access and afford these professions.

         I work in a field where a significant portion of the industry does not have a college degree and does something very manual that is generally not highly valued for intellect. Does that mean that those people are somehow less smart? Not at all. It could just mean that they had less access to education and professional opportunities, or preferred to work with their hands, or needed a specific schedule for family reasons, etc.

         I think about this a lot specifically because my mother graduated from college for a variety of personal and societal reasons and she is probably one of the single sharpest minds I know. She has a large and voracious intellect which has resulted in her being the single widest and best read person I know.

         That said, my biggest take away from the Presidential race so far is that brain surgeons really aren’t all that smart generally.

         1. Lol at your Carson assessment. I know someone who is accurately described as a rocket scientist, but also not that smart generally.

      2. Yes. I make a living assessing the learning capabilities and “intelligence” (as it is currently defined) in children. If I had to pinpoint the qualities that best define intelligence based on my own professional experiences, it would be a combination of problem-solving skills and innate curiosity.

   7. I don’t think it ties to a degree/profession. I think the smartest people are the ones that can converse on most any topic (have something to contribute, even if just intelligent questions) without being condescending. It shows a broad range of knowledge, the ability to assimilate and use information, and a willingness to learn from other people.

   8. I don’t think you can answer those items at the same time at all. There are a variety of career paths that I do admire (many of them medical, especially nurses) because they do something I think is important that I can’t do. But I participate in my local Mensa chapter (so objectively intelligent people) and their careers and educations span every field you can possible think of.

   9. My entire family is comprised of academics (in STEM fields) so it was drilled into me that brilliant people become research scientists and engineers and people who are simply above average intelligence become lawyers and doctors. I become a lawyer and I think there’s a lot of truth to that. I went to a top-ranked undergrad school with a heavy engineering focus and then a top-ranked law school, and my undergrad classmates are without a doubt smarter than my law school classmates. The professions require different skill sets and I definitely know plenty of engineers who could not write a good brief or make an argument in court, but the IQ of the engineers and STEM PhDs I know (don’t know enough non-STEM PhDs) is definitely significantly higher than the IQ of the lawyers I know. I don’t think IQ is the be all, end all though, and certainly many people with lower IQ are happier, more fulfilled and even earn more than people with exceptionally high IQs.

   10. I’m always a little amused by these discussions.

       First….. totally off topic… As a woman, there is not a better turn off when you are trying to meet men than being MD PhD. That’s a conversation stopper… right there. Ga – bye!

       Second, these jobs and degrees require very different skill sets, and most people choose a path that better matches what they can do. Many of my PhD friends were more creatively and intuitively brilliant than my MD friends, but my MD friends had much better working memory, discipline, social skills, communication skills etc.. Huge generalizations, but that’s what I saw…. at the best schools/hospitals. I know stunningly brilliant folks that have gone in different directions. Probably my most brilliant friends are MD PhD, with training in engineering/computer science, but do not see patients. They would not be good doctors….

       The most brilliant and talented people I know have a breath of abilities….. smart, good social skills, athletic abilities, and often artistic abilities. This correlates with a lot of interests and eagerness to learn. They are not Einstein, but…. wan’t Einstein kinda a mess…?!?!

       I was a little sad in college when many of my friends with these amazing abilities and talents went into finance or management consulting……. which was very popular at the time. The drive was to make money (although this was discussed in a very caged way….), and many spoke of the downsides of the PhD paths (hard to get jobs, long training path, modest $), and the drudgery and pain of the MD paths as well. I was sad, truly, that we lost so much brilliant talent that could innovate, cure, and treat our society because of these goals. They rationalized that when they make a lot of $$, they will donate more…. and then make their positive impact on society…. But do they do this? Unfortunately, we often don’t value the right things, or respect the right things.

       But I also don’t feel that the goal of life is to be “happy”. There are higher goals.

       1. + 1 Happy is very important but the main goal is to leave the world a better place then when you found it.

       2. Wow – you are sad because people dared to exercise their free will and pursue careers of their own choice, rather than what you thought they should do? You presume they could “innovate, cure, and treat our society” – so no other path adds anything important to our society?

7. How important do you guys think it is to have experience the woes (and ultimately important life lessons) of dating before settling down in a committed relationship? I’m only in my mid 20s and recently I’ve noticed that a lot of my friends are headed towards marriage, in long term relationships, etc. While I am happy being by myself (I rarely feel lonely), prioritizing time with friends, planning for grad school, travel, living in a different country for a period of time, etc. it would be nice at this point to finally be with someone that sticks for a while.

   When I talk to my older friends who are married they all tell me now is the time to focus on cherishing my single life and not be so quick to be coupled/the lessons I learn while dating are invaluable and help me figure out what I really want in a partner, etc. I know everyone’s experience is different but it would be interesting to hear what all of your perspectives are on this!

   1. Not at all important. If you are lucky enough to meet a life partner young and easily, awesome. Enjoy it.

      I wasn’t. Haven’t. And while I have absolutely learned things from being single, you learn from all kinds of life experience. I don’t think I would have missed out on any important growth by finding a partner 6 years ago (I’m 32) and I would have gained a lot.

      1. +1. I think there can be some truth to the idea that the lessons you learn while dating are valuable, but I also think that’s just something you can tell yourself if the search for a long-term partner takes longer than you would have liked. I’m also 32 and I can’t imagine that I would have lost out on anything worthwhile by finding the right partner at 26.

         1. I met my husband at 28 and got married at 32. Before meeting him, I was pretty much single for a decade so he was my first real serious adult relationship.

            I think I learned a lot from 2 sources. I learned from my friends watching them go through the good and the bad relationships. I also learned a lot about myself and got comfortable with who I am and what I want.

            I also have to say that my life is drastically different than it was when I was in my early to mid-20s. While it would be possible to make all the changes I did with a partner, I think it would have been less likely. And I’m really happy with the path my life took. I may have been just as happy on a different path, but who knows?

   2. I agree with your older friends. I met my husband at 23. He’s a great husband and father but I wish I had more time to be independent and adventurous in my 20s.

      Living your fullest life (travel, pursing hobbies) will be both satisfying for you and bring you into contact with lots of different people. Don’t shy away from something longer term but don’t rush this time in your life either. Marriage and kids are great but there is a definite loss of freedom to do what you want, when you want.

      1. Realized I wasn’t clear on your main question — you don’t need to experience “woes of dating”. Not really sure what that means. In late 20s (like 27/28/29) I wouldn’t waste time on guys that don’t have at least the potential to be a good longer term partner (unless you’re looking for something short term on occasion – then go for it).

         1. I agree with this, and in fact I would actively attempt to skip the “woes of dating” whenever possible. Once you think it looks… woeful, stop spending your time on it. There is no reason to even finish the dinner if your date is horrible.

      2. I met my husband at age 20 and got married at age 23, but waited to have kids (we are planning to TTC this year). I know our lives will change once we have kids (which definitely result in a loss of freedom), but just being married hasn’t resulted in a loss of freedom for me (aside from not having s*x with other people). My husband and I travel a lot together and apart, enjoy individual hobbies, see our separate friends several times a week, have both explored different career opportunities that resulted in us being apart for periods of time, etc. I have married friends who spend all their free time with their spouse, but everyone gets to write the rules of their own marriage.

   3. I spent a lot of time either single or in shorter, more casual relationships. My first long-term “adult” relationship was with my now husband starting in my mid-late 20s. He’s older, but his dating history was similar. I think both of us were pretty comfortable in our own skin and with our life goals. We’d both done what we wanted to on our own so we were ready to settle down. Follow your own timeline.

   4. From the perspective of a 30-something who married young (early 20’s) — I don’t regret at ALL not spending my 20’s dating/adventuring solo. I got to co-adventure with my husband — from exploring our own city to foreign travel, from having 10-for-$10 Progresso soup/bread for dinner during the early years when we were living off my law school loans and his small clerkship income, to the Biglaw years when we had more money than time (well, after paying off said loans), and now to the in-house years where we are hoping for the perfect mix and children.

      My point is — if that great relationship happens for you young, don’t refuse to commit purely on the basis of age. But if it doesn’t (which is far more common, totally normal, as you say), the additional lessons and perspective gained by dating a number of people can obviously help you focus on your goals for a spouse.

      1. this. If you decided a stable relationship is something you want, don’t let others tell you otherwise. They make it sound like freedom is over once you make a commitment. If you meet the right person, you will have more fun being together than you had alone.

      2. +1. My husband and I started dating when we were young (21-22) and married much later. Yes, I have had moments where I wish that I could have just done what I wanted when I wanted to (such as moving to a foreign country), but I don’t regret finding him so early or “growing up” with him. The key is the person rather than what age you are when you meet that person.

         (Also, I 100% do not think that you need to experience dating “woes” to grow as a person!)

      3. Ah, the 10 for $10 deal, I remember those days well. Mixing the chunky tomato and lentil together was our gourmet specialty. I may have to resurrect that for a nastolgic reflection on 15 years together (we met when we were 20, and I wouldnt give up those times together for the world!).

      4. Me too. Married really young and don’t regret it at all 21+ years later. I wasn’t great at dating. I’m an introvert and found it very stressful. Long term relationship is way better for me. I don’t think it’s necessary to pay your dues.

      5. I’ll join the party – met my husband at 19, married at 21, quite happy (no kids until I was 32). While obviously it’s no good to get married too young and regret it, I think that there’s an enormous benefit to growing together rather than being “fully formed” (whatever that means) adults and trying to mesh your lives together after that.

         I sometimes wonder what it would have been like to date more as an adult, but really, that’s just idle curiosity. I don’t feel like it would have been in any way better.

   5. Married at 24, divorced at 33, dating at 34. I don’t think there’s any major life experience to be gained or not gained by dating vs being in a relationship in your 20s vs being single. They’re all valid experiences. All prepare you to interact with a partner, just in different ways.

      I find now that I wish I had more dating experience generally – in a “gee, this is awkward and I wish I knew what I was doing” way, not a interfacing with other humans and knowing myself way.

      I think the biggest thing I can say is just have peace with the path you’re on. Everything will be ok.

   6. I was married young (18), divorced by 23, and now I’m 32 and living with someone. This isn’t quite the question you asked but it was so much easier to live with someone at 18-23. Now I’m stuck in my ways. I don’t feel like I’m as good at navigating those day to day things as I was 10 years ago because now I have a preconceived notion of the Right way to put the toilet paper on the roll, fold the towels, load the dishwasher, etc.

      I think the best thing I got out of dating woes was learning how NOT to argue. Arguing is not about winning, it’s about resolving an issue. Once the discussion is no longer productive it’s time to shut it down. And if that means going to bed angry, that’s OK.

      As far as enjoying single life, I certainly made friends and had experiences I wouldn’t have if I’d been with someone. But then again, I probably didn’t make friends and have experiences I would’ve had if I’d been with someone. It’s sort of a ghost ship that didn’t carry us situation.

      1. “Right way to fold towels.” I am so glad someone else thinks that’s a thing. (SO and I have a difference of opinions on which is the correct way. It’s a battle on laundry day.)

         1. He folds them in half and hangs them up. WHO JUST FOLDS THEM IN HALF THAT’S NOT A THING! We currently have the luxury of using separate bathrooms so I don’t have to see his improperly hung towels, but I dread the day we have to share a bathroom. #firstworldproblems

            1. Mine folds them in such a way you could never hang two towels on the rack together when you pull them out of the linen closet–like folding on the long edge instead of short edge, so they’re way too wide. I always end up refolding them before I hang them up. Drives me batty.

            2. Switch to hooks!

      2. Ha, I’m the opposite. I never lived with a partner until my 30s. I love it now because I no longer care how things are done as long as they’re done. When I was younger I was much more inflexible and opinionated.

   7. I’m in the same spot you are. Mid-20’s, pretty successful, have my graduate degree, great friends, doing TONS of travel – but I have a decent amount of friends settling down and a lot of my close friends in my city who are in their early 30’s. I’ve been on a couple one-off dates but nothing I’ve been seriously interested in. I don’t really want to do messy dating though – I would be evaluating anybody I went out with for long-term within a couple dates/weeks, not really just “fun for now” people.

      At the risk of outing myself if any of my friends who know this story are on this site, this kind of became an issue for me a couple weeks ago. Because of most of my friends being a little older, when I go to dinners, weddings, etc I am usually one of just a few single people, and I feel that I am frequently “paired off” with one of my very close friends who is also single. Then things started getting weird between us, I’m guessing he kind of felt that pressure too, and started transgressing in to non-platonic interactions, at least in public. I was really afraid I was just starting to feel weird because I felt like he was interested in me and that it was the expectation of other people. I finally talked to him about it (while drinking a wedding where he was my date – not a pro move) and while he said we were just close friends, that things definitely had been heading in that direction (this confuses me because why do that with somebody you are just friends with? but I totally accept/respect his answer).

      The next day, I went for a walk with one of my friends who is squarely in that, early-30’s, engaged demographic, and she bought me a donut and I cried for about half an hour about the whole situation. She reminded me that my perception is skewed, and because my friends are older and I am mature enough to fit in without people questioning my age, and because I am objectively killing it professionally even in comparison to our group, I feel like I should be at the place in my life that they are at. She suggested that if my group was other 25 year olds, I would be looking at things a lot differently – not suggesting I change my groups, but that I have different perspective. And that’s okay.

      My friendship with that guy is a little weird now, but I hope it’ll be okay. I didn’t do a great job at explaining this to him, but it wasn’t like, me sitting over here all starry-eyed with a crush. We’ve been friends for a long time, I admire and respect him in a lot of ways, and while we are probably NOT each other’s type on paper and we were definitely flirting/sometimes acting like a couple, so I felt the need to address it.

      Post this conversation, I realized I’m not really interested in actively pursuing a relationship just for the sake of a relationship. I’ll get there, but I’m not there now because I am focused on work and travel.

      (I have a good friend who got married at 23 and is very very happy. My best friend broke up with her boyfriend shortly before graduating law school, but now has met another guy and has been dating him for 6 months and thinks this is it. My other best friend lives in Silicon Valley and works crazy hours and is more focused on her career right now than dating. So, we all exist in the wild!)

   8. This is sort of a side comment, but I am really troubled by the relatively recent idea that (privileged) people in their 20s have to travel far and wide, work in a bunch of jobs, jump out of planes, and yes, date a lot to “find themselves.” If you WANT to do that, great! But this idea that it’s a necessary right of passage bothers me. If you made it through high school and college and have a relatively good idea of what you want to do for the next 5 years or so, you don’t need to go on some artificial soul-searching quest. You’ll grow up and learn things about yourself while being a responsible, stable adult. Admittedly, I may be biased – I’m in my late 20s, married, and have been working as a lawyer for 4 years. But that’s what I wanted and I am more confident in my sense of self than a lot of my friends who had the “20s experience.”

      Applied to your situation, do what feels right to you – if you meet someone you like a lot, don’t avoid a relationship just because you think you’re supposed to date a lot in your 20s.

      1. I don’t think it’s about a soul searching quest – some people just really like travel. DH and I still travel but the reality is when you have two kids with you, you can’t stroll around museums all day and take long late dinners. Post kids you can’t easily take a cycling vacation in France or backpack in Thailand or a kayak camping vacation in the Bahamas (at least until the kids are older). Lots of people have different hobbies – traveling just happens to be a popular one.

         1. Eh, traveling is not “just a hobby.” If you don’t like biking or baking or running marathons, nobody says “what is wrong with you?” But if you tell people you don’t like traveling, people do ask what is wrong with you and there is an assumption that you’re provincial or haven’t “found yourself.” Traveling, at least for 20-somethings in America, has become a mandatory rite of passage and not just something people do for fun on the side. It’s really annoying. And I say this as someone who loves to travel!

            Also, as someone whose parents took them on all sort of adventurous vacations (not cycling because that wasn’t their thing, but mountain climbing, backpacking, camping) — it really is doable with kids, even kids as young as 4-5. You don’t have to wait until they’re teenagers!

            1. Late 20’s here- can confirm that “traveling” is the new “finding yourself” for the educated upper middle class. I am bemused by all of the straight, white, financially secure, educated men I come across via online dating who ALL. LOVE. TRAVELING. They will post lists of countries that they’ve been to and state how “passionate” they are about traveling. It’s so pervasive as to have become generic.

               Well, duh. I like going on vacations, too. If I was a tall, straight, white man (and thus felt safe traveling alone, especially on the cheap) with extra cash and I was unattached in my 20’s and early 30’s I’d travel everywhere (for 1-2 weeks/year), too. It also seems like, for some guys, the list of countries that they’ve been to is the *most* interesting thing about them. I don’t want to know where you’ve been, I want to know what you learned from it!

               I get annoyed when people imply that I *haven’t lived* because I haven’t been to 30 countries. Hi, I have a career that doesn’t allow me to take 4 months off, student loans, and I’m not about to travel to Argentina by myself.

      2. Do you think this is a really recent, like since 2008, thing that is how people explain what elite college grads do when they can’t find jobs? Or do you think this is recent, like past 30 years, and just the result of more people getting married as a capstone instead of a foundation now, so they are more like to spend 10 years being more independent than they used to be?

         1. I do think the recession has something to do with it, because it actually was harder for college grads to find stability. But I don’t really get why that instability translated into the message (that I see reflected in shows like Girls and a million articles on the internet) that radical instability is a rite of passage of your 20s.

      3. New experience by their very nature broaden your horizons and force you to reset the context you understand ‘you’ in. If you can afford to travel/fly/etc it’s an incredibly valuable experience, especially in your twenties where you will already be facing so much change.

         I don’t think people are ‘forcing’ anyone to have a particular set of life experiences but acknowledging that testing your preconceived ideas of what sort of ‘adult’ you will be is healthy.

   9. I know where you’re coming from. I was basically single until I was 29, and people would often say that I should date around more to get some experience.

      The way it ended up for me, my first serious BF was the guy I married. He & I both knew pretty much right off the bat that it was right; if I hadn’t been fairly sure after a week, I almost certainly would have broken up with him. My thought was that I didn’t want to invest time or energy on a relationship that was just going to end at some point.

      Looking back, I don’t think I needed to have more experience. LIVING TOGETHER is much different, and that is a huge adjustment. But it wasn’t that hard to transition into a relationship. I kind of think that having spent time being single and on my own was a good thing.

   10. I don’t think being single or married is necessarily better in terms of happiness. You should make your own happiness and enjoy life wherever you are, instead of waiting for a husband/baby/new job/whatever to make you happy.

       However, I can definitely say that I’m a much better partner now (early 30’s) than I was in my 20’s. I had two long term relationships in my 20’s and was a good girlfriend, but I cringe now to think of some of the stupid arguments that I had with my partners. My friends who got married in their 20’s had to struggle through the process of maturity with their spouses, whereas my spouse will get to enjoy the more mature me. I sometimes joke with my boyfriend that he’s lucky he met 2015 me and not 2007 me!

       Obviously this doesn’t mean that you can’t have a good relationship in your 20’s or that you should wait if you find the right person in your 20’s, but there are many reasons why marriages that start in your late 20s/30s tend to have a lower divorce rate. Enjoy your dating life, wherever it takes you, and your life in general and just be open to learning from your experiences and becoming a better you.

       1. I agree with this whole heartedly. I am a much better partner now than I ever could have tried to be 10 years ago.

   11. Well, I’m going to go against the grain and say that for me at least, it was a huge blessing that I did not end up with the guy I wanted to marry (and was engaged to!) at 22. It would have been a disaster. We ended up calling the whole thing off only a few months into the engagement and it was the best thing we could have done for either of us. At 29, I am definitely not the person I was at 22. I am a much, much better person both personally and as a partner to someone. I was actually probably a pretty terrible partner at 22 (I was just selfish and ambitious and definitely didn’t know how to bring someone else into my life as a true partner) and my ex was also deeply flawed. Through subsequent relationships and dating I learned how to tell if someone was a good match for me, the things that are dealbreakers and the things I can compromise on, and how to effectively add a relationship to my life that is not my entire life. It sounds sort of cliche but I really did grow tremendously as a person and now, current me would NOT be able to have been in a relationship with 22-year-old-me. I am extremely happy with my boyfriend right now and I am so glad I did not meet or date him at 22.

   12. I’m all for making the most out of whatever situation you are in – single, found “the one” young, killer job, lame job, whatever – but I think it’s a bit asinine (and cruel) to suggest that being hurt is some sort of path to enlightenment.

       I do think that dating can teach you what to reasonably expect out of another person and what can be expected out of you. But if you have level-headed friends or a good relationship with your parents, they can give you valuable perspective.

   13. I’m 26, not married, and I’ve definitely learned from failed relationships – I’ve made mistakes I’ve learned not to repeat, and I’ve gotten a clearer picture of what I want in someone. That said, I don’t think you should date around just for the experience unless you want to, and if you meet someone you want a real relationship with, don’t shy away from a commitment because you’re worried you don’t have enough life experience. Commit if you want to, and if it doesn’t work out, you’ll learn some lessons for next time.

       I do get that marrying young can be a mistake, but it doesn’t always end in disaster! My mom was 23 when she got married, and she and my dad are still going strong 30+ years later. Sometimes it does work.

   14. Thanks for all the thoughtful responses guys! I think im just exhausted from dating at this point and ive learn a great deal about from my mistakes and from good times ive had but im ready to take a break from actively pursuing it. However, if I happen to meet a great guy who is worth it I will definitely give it a shot – whether that its next month, five years from now, and so on.

       I think what my older friends were getting at is that its important to know who you are and be okay by yourself regardless of whether youre coupled or not and sometimes you can get to that realization faster if you spend some time being single and happy. But obviously as I’m learning from this thread, everyone’s experience is different. =)

8. Pants question… whenever I wear wool suiting pants (BR, J Crew, Talbots) I always end up with an accordion worth of wrinkles in the crot c h area. Am I not ironing properly or am I missing something?

   1. Not necessarily. Are things pulling when you sit / stand / walk?

      I have BR wool pants and also the stretch ones. I may get more wrinkles in wool, but I ultimatley get wrinkles in them all. I think that the thicker fabric / stretch of the non-wool ones mitigates wrinkles, but I like the wool ones better over all.

      I think it’s a pants thing.

      1. +1 It’s a pants thing. The geometry of having enough fabric to cover when you are standing vs less fabric needed when sitting.

         1. Geometric!

   2. It’s a result of sitting +fabric type (wool suiting wrinkles from the body heat + fabric bending while sitting). Unless you go to a wrinkle resistance fabric-type (or stop sitting) it’s just how clothes work.

      You might consider if the pants are fitting correctly thru the cr0!ch and your pants have a longer cr0!ch depth than you need (and hence more fabric to wrinkle), but I don’t think you ever get away from it completely.

   3. Do you not also get these accordion wrinkles when you wear wool dresses or skirts? I sure do.

9. I’m ambivalent on this point. Here’s my perspective. So, I dated a ton of jerks but I guess I grew insofar as they were always jerks in different ways. Like, at 20 I dated a guy who refused to tell me I was attractive and would tell me that I would only attract shallow people if I wanted be liked for shallow reasons. (Extra traumatizing, as he was the first person to see me naked). At 30, having had broader experience I’m like, “Oh yeah, that guy was emotionally abusive and a terrible person.” At 20, though, I just thought, “Oh no, there’s something wrong with my desires.” I never had exactly that problem again but I did have the guy who seemed great until he tried having anal sex without asking and the guy who left for a model. There are an infinite number of bad experiences you can have with dating partners that can blindside you, particularly if you’re vulnerable to it. I did eventually get therapy and shortly thereafter met my current partner, who is a really wonderful, good person who I never fight with. And while, yes, I learned some things about vocalizing my needs through dating these jerks, I’m not sure those experiences or the three months of therapy I had prior to meeting my partner radically transformed the sort of person I am, making me magically capable of a healthy relationship or singling out good guys. I think I just got lucky in meeting him. If increased experience played any part in our relationship for me, it’s mostly just that I knew enough to go on a second date with the quiet, nerdy programmer who made me laugh.

   1. I am sorry for so many jerks in your personal history. And I agree, that such experiences are not in any way needed for developing your sense of self. Self-reflection and good communication can be learned without traumatizing experiences. I live happily with my man, and can only look back on one previous boyfriend, who was a decent guy. My best friend married the first guy she was with. It doesn’t all have to be crazy drama. This issue is FOMO.

10. Ladies, I’m going on a non-work trip to a wintery country in Europe for 10 days. Trying to take only a carry on bag – I’m usually a super heavy packer. In addition to all my toiletries and beauty stuff, I’ve been obsessing over my packing list.

    I’m looking for any thoughts – am I missing a huge category of things? I’m trying to do a travel capsule. We expect to be 90% casual and have a few dressy evenings.

    Tops:
    Long sleeve mustard swing top
    Black and white striped Breton
    Black/cobalt reversible strappy tank top (nicer)
    plaid button down
    black and white cotton tank tops

    Sweaters:
    Black cashmere crewneck
    Grey open cardigan
    Lightweight grey tunic

    Dresses:
    striped short-sleeve sheath
    black short sleeved swing dress
    grey long sleeved swing dress

    Pants:
    one pair dark jeans
    one pair sporty leggings
    one pair “leather” leggings

    PJs, coat, hat, gloves, umbrella

    1. you’re missing shoes, which take up a lot of room. I’d wear boots on the plane since you won’t want to pack them, and then also bring some comfy but still fashionable sneakers, and one pair of heels or fancy flats.

    2. Personally I’d take another pair of jeans instead of one of the pairs of leggings – leggings and trousers isn’t so much of a thing here in Europe as it seems to be in North America (unless you’re bringing them as tights to wear under your dresses) – and maybe sub the grey open cardigan for one that does up, for warmth. Otherwise you sound right on track. Otherwise – could you buy your toiletries when you get there rather than taking them with you? I’m not sure I could make 100ml bottles of shampoo/ conditioner/ shower gel last for 10 days anyway!

       1. Thanks. I think I could wear my sporty leggings under dresses on cold days but I’m also bringing real tights. Will consider another pair of jeans…

          I only wash my hair every 5 days (minimum) so assuming all goes well on the hair front, I’ll only wash once when I’m there. Shower gel may get tight, but I’m picky and my previous experience with this particular European country was uninspiring with respect to the toiletries available!

    3. I’d only bring one dress. Add a scarf. A mustard swing top sounds drafty and not terribly versatile. What is the point of the black/cobalt tank? Is a Breton top useful?

       Have you thought about what you will actually wear and what you are doing? If I’m really trying to pack light I write out outfits for every day.

       I’d want 2 pairs pants, one dress, two sweaters, 5 tops.

       1. Yeah, by my standards this list is still insane overpacking. Anonymous’s list is pretty good; since it’s a snowy place, maybe add an extra sweater? But no way do you need three pairs of pants and three dresses. I’d do one versatile dress, one pair skinny dark jeans, one pair skinny black pants. I’ll travel with basically that number of clothes for a month, assuming I will have occasional access to laundry.

    4. In addition to clothes and basic stuff I always pack a bag with OTC meds. Trying to find an open pharmacy can be a nightmare especially if you don’t speak the language. I am not someone who typically takes meds but in my med pack I have small amounts of all of these. I don’t take the full box but I do take pictures of the directions on taking them and upload them to google drive etc so I can pull them up if I need to. I take enough for a few doses until I can find a pharmacy:
       Dramamine or something similar in case you get motion sick
       Anti itch lotion (for bug bites)
       Antidiarrheal medication
       Antihistamine
       Decongestant, alone or in combination with antihistamine
       Medicine for pain or fever (aspirin, or ibuprofen)
       Mild laxative
       Basic cold med like DayQuil
       Antacid
       Antibacterial ointments (Neosporin)
       Melatonin
       Charcoal tablets
       Q tips
       Nail clipper
       Tweezer
       Band-aids
       Hand Sanitizer
       Lip balm

       Pack universal adapters for outlets. Pack more than you think you will want.

       My rule: You are only a happy traveler as long as your feet are happy and your body is warm and dry.

       I don’t care about being super fashionable when traveling. I basically look the same every day but hey my husband doesn’t care. I pack everything to match everything. So every shirt I pack can match with every pair of pants. I usually pack 2 scarves for a pop of color and again every shirt I bring can be worn with those scarves. Scarves are amazing: cover your head on a plane to block out the light from a passenger next to you, cover your head if its raining, becoming a blanket when a train is freezing, easy to take off if you are too hot. I pack cardigans because they are more versatile. I pack in dark colors so things can spill and who cares. From Sept-March I always bring a hat, gloves, and under layers (either long underwear or tights). I have boots and shoes that I know I can walk in for hours that are comfortable that don’t scream TOURIST. I bring multiple pairs of shoes so I can give my feet and shoes a rest between wears. I have one or two looks that are more dressy and if we are going out to dinner we just go back to the hotel and I switch into those and wear the same skirt for all nice dinners the whole trip. I bring good socks, I wear smartwool socks year round and just bring the lighter ones in summer and the heavier ones in the winter. In case you haven’t noticed I really like happy feet.

       I swear by packing cubes for packing all of our stuff up. We have the Eagle Creek brand. I have used them for years and love them! There is no way without them that my husband and I could pack 10 days of clothes (winter layers!) into one shared carry on. BTW, We also each have one small backpack for things like kindles- I am not Mary Poppins. And we didn’t pack bare minimal. 3 pairs of pants each, 3 pairs of shoes each etc. I even packed slippers!

       Other random stuff to pack:
       -mophie or another brand that extends the life of your phone battery
       -audio cord – for listening to podcasts if you rent a car
       -car charger – again if you are renting a car-headphone splitter
       -earbuds
       -An empty ziploc bag because you just never know!
       -umbrella
       -raincoat
       -swimming suit
       -sunblock/bug spray

       In my backpack I have the following: (By the way, I always travel with a backpack because my back hurts from using a purse all day. I throw in a nice small purse for dinners.)

       -pen (for landing cards!)
       -reusable shopping bag …this is SO USEFUL. For example if you get on a plane and they are like “Surprise! you need to check your carry on!” you can quickly dump all the vital stuff (meds etc) into this bag and then if your carry on gets lost you aren’t screwed.
       -breath mints
       -hand sanitizing wipes
       -kleenex
       -bandaids
       -sunglasses
       -small notebook to write things down on
       -extra hair bands
       -spork/wrapped in reusable napkin

       When my husband I travel we are okay with down time. Taking time to read in a cafe or go back for a nap. Travel is also a vacation. Because of this we like bringing an ipad that we have put board games on (there is a ton of selection available now), our kindles, and have some audio books/podcasts downloaded to listen to.

    5. Pick tops and sweaters that can be worn with each other so you can mix and match outfits depending ont the weather. It doesn’t sound like the tank top goes with any topper. Also clothes to hang around the hotel in.

    6. I would bring a few scarves if possible. You can make a simple black dress or top look different if you had multiple scarves and they don’t take up that much room.

    7. wintery country but 3 short sleeved dresses and tank tops seems wrong. How cold is it going to be? That’s probably where I’d adjust, but I get cold very easily (like I wear long sleeves in Florida because I think they overcompensate for the heat with over air conditioning and 68 inside is cold to me).

       1. I mean, the place I’m going is less cold and less snowy (or not snowy at all) than the place I am coming from so that is probably my “omg this is going to be tropical” bias. I’ll be wearing a winter coat outside the whole time, the same one I wear at home.

    8. Here’s my packing list for 10 days in the Netherlands. I took like to travel with only a carry-on and a personal bag – I also actually try to leave 15-20% of my carry on open so that I can bring back stuff because I enjoy shopping a bit in Europe. I’ve done this same list basically for 10 days in France during a similar time of year before and it went without a hitch. I actually prefer bringing a skirt instead of a dress because I can wear it with 2-3 tops from my list for slightly different dressier outfits instead of just 1 dress. I’m only packing 4 days worth of underwear and socks because I’m staying in an airbnb with laundry facilities.

       Bags:
       1 Longchamp extendable bag with clutch inside (acting as wallet too)
       1 carryon

       Miscellaneous:
       Kindle, laptop, cell, associated chargers, headphones
       Toiletry bag (foundation, powder, brow stuff, eyeliner, chapstick, razor, purell)
       Glasses/contacts
       Jewelry bag (2 necklaces, 2 earring pairs)
       Socks, undergarments

       Bottoms (4)
       1 pair leggings
       1 pair dark wash jeans
       1 pair tights for wear with the skirt
       1 skirt

       Tops (4 shirts, 2 cardigans, 1 jacket)
       1 black sleeveless dressy top
       1 printed sleeveless top
       1 black long sleeved top
       1 black and white striped tshirt
       1 black cardigan
       1 maroon sweater
       1 rain/down jacket hybrid

       Shoes (2)
       1 pair black ankle boots
       1 pair nike free

       1. This might be too late for you to see, but definitely make sure you bring shoes and a coat that hold up well in wet weather. I used to live in the Netherlands and still go frequently, and it rains all the time.

          1. Thanks!! I’ll throw an umbrella in as well. I’m bringing a rain shell to be on top of my light down jacket, but I’ll test my boots’ waterproofness again…

11. Anyone have a personal shopper in Chicago they like? I’m open to pretty much any store (was thinking Nordstrom, Macys, Bloomingdales etc). My work dress code is effectively ‘engineering casual’ and I revert to jeans, sneakers and a sweater on most days. I used to work with a fantastic woman at Nordstrom but she’s moved on (hence, my fashion-backsliding).

    1. Don’t know about Bloomingdales but Personal Shoppers at Macy’s are not really personal shoppers. I used to work there. But you can always find someone at Nordstrom, if your shopper moved on, try someone else.

12. Who has a fitness tracker that you love? What brand / model, and what do you love about it?

    1. I love my fitbit! The app is a great encouragement tool, I love when I see that I’ve met all my goals for the day, and when I rank high among my friends. But I have the One, which is a clip-on, not one of the wristbands, which I actually think is better because I can clip it to my pants or skirt, or clip it to my bra and wear it discreetly under my clothes.

    2. I have had fitbit, apple watch and bella beat. THe bella beat is a POS, the other two great. Go with fitbit if you want low key.

13. I need to be more financially responsible. I’m making about $180k and maxing out my 401(k), and also putting $2,200/month towards student debt (still have $200k). I’d like to be saving $3k/month in cash until I have an emergency savings fund built up (roughly $30k), at which point I’ll shift another $1k/month towards loans. But every month I wind up putting more like $2k in savings because I’m just spending.too.much.money. I don’t make big purchases, but little things add up (ubers, eating out).

    My question is this: I need to have a place to put cash savings that I cannot access unless it’s truly an emergency. Otherwise if I run out of money in my checking account, my savings account automatically shifts money over or I can just make a transfer. It’s too easy to spend money in my savings account. Any suggestions? My bf suggested a money market account, but even then you are allowed to make a few transfers a month with no penalty. I want my money to be accessible in an emergency (with no tax implications, so not like an IRA or something), but really hard to get at on a day-to-day basis. Does such a thing exist?

    TIA!

    1. Money market isn’t savings. I can think of two choices – you can put it in a savings account that is not attached to your bank, so it takes 3 days to access it. Or you can put it towards your loans, which really prohibits you from accessing it since you won’t be able to since it will disappear.

       I’m curious if there are more in-the-middle options. Some ladies ladder CDs but I don’t know as much about that.

    2. Could you put it in a savings account at a small credit union or local bank that you then never connect to your checking? If you can have your paycheck direct deposit split, you can put the money there directly. Then, you can easily access the money in case of emergency by physically going to the bank to make a withdrawal. But you won’t have any way to transfer it. Maybe ignore the bank’s website completely and only check the balance on monthly paper statements.

       1. that’s something to consider- thanks!

       2. I do this, and I don’t have a check card for the account, so I have to either walk my butt into the bank to withdraw cash or wait a few days for it to transfer to my normal bank.

    3. I don’t understand what you are looking for in your 2nd paragraph – how would a financial institution determine what’s truly an emergency and would make it easy to release your funds?? It’s a question of self-control, and when it comes to not spending savings, it shouldn’t be that difficult.

       1. Yeah, this is a matter of making your budget work for you. An account at a second bank that you’d have to wait a couple of days to transfer the money would put in the pause button you are looking for. But making the money harder to get doesn’t replace the need to reign in the spending if that is the goal. Perhaps move to a cash only allowance for eating out, etc. and when you are out of money for the week, that’s it.

       2. This. What you are talking about is basically a trust fund, and it’s completely absurd. Have you considered that saving 2k a month is actually all you want to do?

    4. We have a money market account through the same firm that does retirement stuff for us that takes 24-48 hours minimum to get money out from. It’s such a pain to withdraw money from that I don’t even bother most of the time, but if I did need to transfer funds, I’d just need to wait the 24-48 hours.

       What if you set up a direct deposit into a separate savings account at a different bank that wasn’t linked to your checking account?

       (Yeah, I know. I am all over this today.)

       1. Seems like I should just do a money market account at like Vanguard (where I have my 401k) and have the $3k deposited there automatically every month.

    5. Start a Vanguard account?

       Honestly though you’re doing really well to be putting $2k/mo in savings. My numbers are the same as yours and I am not putting away that much.

    6. An account at a different bank, where you leave the checks/debit card at home? Capital One account (takes a couple days for the money to show up in your account?

       Otherwise, make sure you have realistic goals – are these aspirational only, or have you actually had a month that looked like your goals? What was different about that month? Can you recreate those circumstances? Look at your spending behaviors to see if there are trends about when you start to inadvertently spend money. Sometimes stay in with friends and a bottle of wine, instead of going out every time.

    7. I opened a savings account at a credit union close to my home. It’s not linked to any other account. I use an old-fashioned check to deposit $1,000 a month. They mail me a statement only quarterly. For me, it’s the best way to keep that money out of site, out of mind.

       1. You can also set up an automatic bill-pay from your checking account to another bank, so your checking account automatically cuts a check for you.

          1. I do a few automatic deposits to other savings accounts, but for paranoid reasons I want one account that is completely separate from the Chase behemoth, where the rest of my accounts live. I acknowledge that I might have been too influenced by The Handmaid’s Tale.

    8. I get that you want to make it harder for yourself to access, but I don’t think you need something absolutely inaccessible. I accidentally accomplished this by just opening an Ally savings account, which requires two or three steps to transfer money into my checking, and it’s such a pain that I just don’t even think about it, but that’s not really the issue here.

       The issue is: you have a budget, right? An actual, line-by-line budget? I’m guessing no. Yes, it’s a pain and a time investment to set up, but if you’re having this much trouble saving an extra $1k/month when you’re bringing home $180k, you need to do that. Yesterday. I’m pretty happy with Mint, because it’s flexible enough to customize, free, and works on my phone so I can check whether I should be but a lot of ladies on here swear by You Need A Budget.

       Pay yourself first! If you want to save $3k a month, on the day you get your paycheck, auto-transfer $3k into your savings account. Then don’t touch it. If you keep track of your balance, or your budget categories, it shouldn’t be too hard to do.

       1. Exactly this. I am one of those people who swears by You Need A Budget (YNAB). I have the app on my phone and it helps me make budget decisions in the moment rather than categorizing all my transactions after I’ve spent the money (like Mint).

          I was in your exact same position, with a similar income and similar spending habits. The only thing that worked for me was YNAB because I was able to set my budget, enter transactions easily and at the moment I was spending the money, and see exactly how much I had left for the month so I could plan ahead to take the subway instead of an Uber, not have that 4th drink, put off going to that fancy restaurant until next month’s budget, etc.

          1. great suggestion, thanks!

    9. I had a similar issue and opened a Capital One 360 account, which worked really well for me. I have 4 accounts total, 2 checking and 2 savings at Chase and Capital One 360. My paycheck is deposited into my chase checking, then automatic transfers move a small amount ($1-200) into my chase savings as overdraft protection, a set amount into CA360 checking to pay my monthly bills and a set amount into CA360 savings for my long term savings. The amount that’s left in my chase checking is used as my day to day discretionary account for everything from food to ubers.

       This system works really well for me because it ensures that my bills are always covered, my savings are difficult to access, but I always know how much fun money I have and I have a backup savings for overdraft protection if necessary. I tend to keep $500-1000 in my Chase savings for overdraft/immediate emergencies and also have a credit card for emergencies.

    10. CD ladder. You’d lose interest but you get the money out in a true emergency

    11. I agree with the comments below that this fix is largely going to be behavioral for you versus a magic unicorn bank that will access what’s an emergency.

        For me, having an online only savings account (mine’s at HSBC) serves this purpose. I have an ATM card that would allow me to withdraw money (but that lives in a drawer at home), and I don’t have checks drawing from the account, so a transfer requires 3 business days notice & a few steps. I use the account for “untouchable for now” money so it only goes for expenses I can plan around with at least a week’s notice.

        I agree with others to get a budget and plan your expenses in advance. Honestly (and this may not be the most spartan way to live) — I’d scale down and then assess your ability to live within your budget then gradually scale back up. Put $2K into the emergency fund for now, use Mint (or another source) to watch where the “missing” $1K is going, then change your behaviors if you don’t like where the money is going. good luck!

    12. Answering the question asked: get a svaings account that isn’t linked to your checking account, or get a checking account with checks only, no debit or credit card. Then you can write yourself a check if need be.

        Now, I rarely encourage people to save less, but you might want to reexamine your budget. After a while, and in a high-paying, busy job, it is tough to continue living like a student or a broke twenty-something. A good part of your salary is paid to you so you can exchange time for money (eating out instead of cooking, Uber instead of the subway). If you are still paying down loans at a good clip, maxing out your 401k, and saving a few thousand a month, maybe the few hundred on food and Uber is just going to happen.

    13. Another idiot who makes too much money for her own good. I make 80-90K and am putting $2000-2500 per month toward loans. Seriously, what is wrong with some of you people? STOP BUYING CRAP.

        1. SLOW. CLAP.

        2. Or maybe stop holding yourself to unrealistic expectations and also stop being mean to people (the last being you). The OP sounds like they’re doing pretty good to me.

           1. Living on a budget and not buying crap are unrealistic expectations? Ok. Good luck to you in 30 years.

              1. Where does she say she’s buying crap? She says little things like uber rides and meals out are building up. She also says she’s maxing out her 401k, saving $2,000 in cash a month, and paying $2,200 a month on her student loans. We know she’s making a lot of money and, generally, that goes along with not a ton of time, which is why people buy meals out and uber rides (generally).

                 I don’t know if her expectations are realistic or not. But I do know that the OP will probably be fine regardless, even if she’d prefer to save $3k and even if she starts doing it (which she probably will). I also know that calling her an “idiot” is both wrong and unproductive–at least on the facts given. Making non-optimal financial decisions while also making a ton of great financial decisions along with it doesn’t make you an idiot.

                 Granted, the OP is also in an enviable position. I see why it’s annoying to see someone with a very high salary fretting about saving enough. I just think your attack is ridic.

        3. Calling someone an idiot is so very constructive, thank you for weighing in.

        4. Congratulations? This post is not helpful, relevant, or even amusing. But, good for you, I guess.

    14. This is a little silly, but on Citibank (I use their online banking) you can give accounts nicknames. One is called “Do Not Touch” and one is called “Day to Day Savings.” Money goes into Do Not Touch, but it only comes out for like, the down payment on a house (or quitting my job and moving across the country). Day to Day Savings can get raided for like, Christmas presents or whatever. (There’s also an account for rent money — it gets funded with every pay check so I’m always ahead on that particular expense.) If there’s a lot in Day to Day, it can get kicked over to Do Not Touch. I’ve learned to really love watching the balance in Do Not Touch go up. Like I said, it’s silly, but specifically ear marking the Do Not Touch has worked for me.

14. Questions about applying for federal government attorney positions (reposting…thanks for the reply on the previous thread).

    Basically, I’m 3 years into my first post-law school job, with a government agency in DC. I am also on maternity leave until April-ish. I desperately want to move back to my home state, and my grand plan was to begin to apply for jobs in the fall (logistically and financially, it makes sense to wait until them for reasons related to DH’s job).

    However, a posting for a great federal government attorney position in my home state just appeared on USAJobs…this type of opportunity is few and far between, and I’d like to apply. I would love insight on two issues:

    1. A couple of weeks ago, my supervisor announced that she is retiring mid-March. Her position will probably be filled by others on a rotating basis until there is a permanent hire, which could take months. She would have been my top reference…she thinks very highly of my work. Is it appropriate to ask her for her personal contact information to list her as a reference (in addition to other references)?

    2. This position asks for three letters of reference to be included. I hadn’t planned on telling anyone at my office that I was looking to move, as based on the job market for positions I am considering, it could be a long process. Has anyone had to do this for federal government attorney positions? Any advice on asking for letters of reference while I am on maternity leave? This requirement has made me question whether I should in fact apply for this position.

    Thanks for any guidance in advance!

    1. I posted this on the earlier thread but in case you didn’t see it here it is again:

       1. Definitely ask her.
       2. This is a know your agency thing. I’ve asked for references from direct supervisors and other higher level attorneys, but lateral and upward movement is highly encouraged in my federal agency. I also think it matters whether you are leaving the agency but staying in your department, or whether you are leaving the department altogether. Could you talk to a trusted mentor and see what they think? Is there someone outside your immediate chain of command that can offer a reference? Perhaps a senior attorney that isn’t in you direct COC, but has reviewed your work and can keep this quiet? If not, perhaps ask your retiring supervisor for guidance. Since she is retiring she might be willing to offer more insight on this. Good luck!

       Also, consider getting references from co-workers and submitting your performance appraisals from the last 3 years. I did this for the last federal attorney position (I was applying outside my department) and they seemed to understand when I explained in the interview that I wanted to hold off on contacting the supervisor but was more than happy to provide performance appraisals. And I got the job so it’s something to consider!

       1. Seconding this. Are they actually asking for 3 letters of reference? I used to see this a lot for fed jobs but the more updated requirement seems to be either 2 recent performance appraisals or list of references. I am not doubting you but you may wish to double check the listing. If you need the letters, I would reach out to the people you need them from. I don’t think the maternity leave matters.

          I would approach your supervisor, tell her how much you have enjoyed working with her and explain that since she is familiar with your work and ask if she would be willing to serve as a reference in the future. (If you want you can also explain to her what you’ve explained to us here about looking for a job now)

          If this is a fed job for which you have the right experience and it rarely comes available, do not NOT apply.

15. Can anyone who is a foster parent and/or adoptive parent suggest any books to read on the subject(s)? Both ideas are flitting around my brain/heart, but I don’t even know where to begin to educate myself. Thanks!

    1. I have been considering adoption and one of the books I read was Instant Mom, Nia Vardalos. I know she’s a celeb, but the book was worth reading.

    2. I loved the book: No Biking in the House Without a Helmet by Melissa Fay Greene

       I plan on reading as soon as it comes out Casting Lots: Creating a Family in a Beautiful, Broken World Hardcover by Susan Silverman

    3. Brownie points for anyone who had a “secular” adoption experience or can offer resources for adoption through non-religious organizations.

       1. In my state you can foster-to-adopt through the foster care system and some prospective adoptive parent(s) forego fostering and wait to adopt a newborn surrendered to Social Services.

    4. I loved: The Child Catchers: Rescue, Trafficking, and the New Gospel of Adoption

       It’s about the problems that exist in adoption – but I think it’s still really good to read to make sure that you watch out for your situation to make sure you aren’t accidentally participating in something unsavory. I don’t think it would apply to domestic fostering, but it’s really eye opening about some adoption programs.

    5. I recently finished “The Connected Child” and thought it was amazing. She doesn’t pull any punches, but it’s the first book I’ve read that gave me hope that adopting isn’t going to be a nightmare. It has really specific connecting strategies and tools that I would actually recommend for biological children too (with the caveat that I don’t have any children yet).

16. Hoping for some anonymous help. I’m a single home owner in Florida. I make approximately $60k. Would someone in a similar financial bracket share their approximate budget? I’m trying to see where my spending is outside of the norm.

    1. It would be easier for you to share you budget, and we can give you feedback.

       Look at the big things… rent/mortgage + repairs, car insurance/payments, commuting to work costs.

       If you are not making ends meet…. move/rent a smaller place, closer to work, and get rid of car payments by buying a used reliable car you can afford as soon as possible.

       Easy things to cut… get rid of cable, cheaper cell phone plan, keep your heat/AC at lower/higher temps, negotiate down your internet rate, find a new car insurance provider, stop eating out and prepare more healthy foods at home, stop gym membership and exercise at home, and only buy clothing/things that you NEED on sale.

       It just depends on your own priorities, and long term plans.

    2. I’m also single and make around 60K, but Columbus OH. My take-home is $3400 a month.

       $970 – Mortgage/HOA fees
       $300 – High bill estimate, usually more like $225-$250
       $255 – Student loan (used to be $600/month but I’m down to one loan)
       $400 – Groceries (including paper products, cleaning supplies, etc.)
       $275 – Car payment
       $100 – Gas
       $500 – Miscellaneous – gym fee ($30), monthly subscriptions like Netflix/Hulu, general shopping, going out.
       $600 – I sometimes go over in categories and don’t automate my savings, so I usually deposit anywhere from $500-$700 in savings every month.

       1. Oh, and I have a small amount of money that comes out pre-tax for retirement, but I plan on automating some of my savings into a specific retirement account soon.

    3. I make $70k and live in a LCOL area, also single and a homeowner. My take home is $3400/mo.

       $1000 – Mortgage + Escrow + a buffer that sits in my house account for future repairs/expenses
       $300 – Utilities + cell phone + internet
       $700 – Student loans
       $400 – Groceries (including cat supplies for two cats and some supplies for foster cats, fresh flowers, toiletries and household paper products and cleaning products, but does not include alcohol)
       $80 – Gas
       $150 – Automatically transferred to savings account
       $300 – Miscellaneous – gym fee ($30), monthly subscriptions like Netflix/Hulu, dinner/brunch, alcohol, shopping, etc.

       Left over money rolls over to the next month or is ear marked for larger future expenses (wedding travel, etc.)

17. I’m working with a recruiter to close in on a position at another firm. Late last night the recruiter asked me my current salary and I just realized the number I gave him is $5k less than what it actually is. I already told the recruiter about my mistake but ugh I feel so dumb. I’m really worried this will affect the offer if I get one. I’m not expecting a huge bump in pay, but it’d be pretty disappointing to move for the same or God forbid less. If they give me an offer, I have to take it to get out of my current firm, but I am seriously kicking myself right now.

    1. Eh, you can’t change the past.

       This doesn’t seem like a huge deal to me. Somebody asks you a number late at night, on the spot and you were 5k off. I mean, if you were 5k off on a total salary of 10k, I would be concerned, but presumably this is less than 10% of your total salary?

       Let it go. You corrected it within 24 hours. Do your best negotiations going forwards.

    2. If you fixed the mistake this morning the recruiter probably told the new firm the corrected salary number. I wouldn’t worry about this.

       If they do come in at the same or lower, negotiate! You have more experience and know-how than you did when you joined your current firm. Leverage that to a salary increase.

       1. The recruiter gets a % of your new salary, so s/he will want your starting salary to be higher, too. We’re all supporting you!

    3. Salary is a negotiation, so being off by 5 at the very beginning should be fix-able. Also, your next salary shouldn’t be based on your currently salary, it should be based on your going rate in the market. So perk up, negotiate, and good luck on getting the new job and out of the current job!

18. I need help with a friend. I lent her money to help her keep the gas and electricity on in her house with her kids (I know, I know). Stupidly, I gave her my CC number to pay the bill (I know, I know). She has now added an additional $1,000 for cable and electric bills and buying pizza without asking me! I have cancelled my cards, so she no longer has the number. I am terrible with confrontation, but I know I need to confront this head on, whether I get the money back or not and whether I lose a friend or not. This is what I am planning to say, via text, confrontational ladies, please help me here:

    I checked my credit card statement and saw that you had charged an additional $1,000 to my card without asking me. This is a huge breach of trust, and I can no longer lend you any additional money. We also need to come up with a repayment plan for the amount that you owe me. I’ll call you tonight to discuss.

    1. Can you dispute the charges with the credit card company? I know it’s extreme, but it’s what I would do.

       Also, this is harsh, but this is not a friend. I’m not sure how someone can rack up $1k in cable and electric bills in a short amount of time. Regardless, this is someone who chose to take advantage of your kindness. And that is not ok.

       Tough learned life lesson…

       1. What? No. This is not disputable (maybe technically it is, but ethically?!). You gave her the number, and you knew this could happen. Take the advice from folks below, but my guess is you’re going to have to eat these charges.

          1. It’s an unauthorized charge. Of course it’s disputable. Both technically and ethically.

             1. Actually (reg E attorney here) you won’t be able to dispute it. You will only get reimbursed for any amount after you notify the bank about te fraudulent charge. You made her an authorized user when you have her the info

          2. only disputable if you’re willing to press charges.

          3. Right. Wouldn’t you have to prove (presumably in writing – which may or may not exist in the form of an email or text message) you only authorized her to use the card for X charge, but not Y and Z? I feel like, in the absence of this, the dispute carries no weight. Not a legal mind here, but it just doesn’t feel right/ethical/practical/fruitful/insert word of choice to dispute a casual agreement made between friends of 30 years. I think it’s a hard lesson learned, OP eats the expenses assuming friend doesn’t willingly pay them back, and then moves on.

    2. I wouldn’t text at all. Call.

       Hi. I just saw my credit card bill. I see you charged $1000 worth of things I didn’t authorize you to charge. This is unacceptable to me. I expect full repayment by the end of the month for the money you stole.

       You probably won’t get anything back though.

       1. We had a problem with a nonpaying tenant, and one suggestion was to take her to court.
          My friend says, You can’t get blood from a stone. (If someone doesn’t have money, they’re not suddenly going to have the money to repay you.)

    3. Dude. Wow.

       Be prepared to never get the money back. I’d dispute the charges, do whatever you can to protect yourself.

    4. Are you sure it’s not an error? Or did she have $1000 in back-due electric bills and when you lent her money for the electric bills, that’s what it cost?

       This story doesn’t make sense. Electric bills aren’t an impulse buy you can rack up like handbags.

       1. I’m thinking it had to be a back-due bill. If she was in danger of having the utilities turned off, who knows how much those bills could be. And she possibly lied/underestimated how much she needed in the first round, then when she had the means (i.e. the credit card number) to take care of the entire amount she took it. Desperate people do desperate things.

          I hope you aren’t too hard on yourself, OP – your heart was in the right place and even though you look back on this as a mistake, at least it wasn’t a mistake made out of selfishness or idiocy.

    5. Sort of devil’s advocate here – is there any chance it was a mistake? I once put my cc number into a friend’s iPad when I ordered delivery to her house. She ordered delivery a couple of weeks later on her own and didn’t realize that my cc number auto-filled. She noticed the mistake before I did; she paid me back and removed my cc number from her iPad. Maybe something similar happened with your friend?

       Definitely tell her that you noticed the charges and ask for the money back, but I’m not sure there’s much to be gained from accusing her off the bat. If she did it on purpose, it will only make her shut down and not pay you back. And if it was an honest mistake, not giving her the benefit of the doubt would really harm the friendship.

       1. This is a good point. I will ask her about it that way. Thanks for another viewpoint!

       2. Another possibility – is there a chance that she’s living with someone untrustworthy who came across the cc information (maybe through auto-fill on a shared computer), and they ran up the charges? Obviously she’d still need to make it up to you, but that’s a scenario where the friendship could possibly be saved. Especially if there’s any chance she’s in an abusive situation (obviously that’s a far stretch from what you’ve told us, but worth considering).

    6. What a kind thing you did. Don’t feel stupid. I hope you can spare the $1000 and you should definitely confront her about repayment, but it makes me feel good to know there are people like you who tried to make a bad situation better.

    7. Email for a paper trail. And she’s not a friend, as other posters have said.

       Do a bit of research and find out what the credit card company does to her if you dispute the charges. Find out how long you have to dispute them. My guess is that it is a lot more harsh than dealing with you, and she should be aware of what she is facing.

       Also be clear that interest applies to this money that was taken.

       1. Do not ask your friend with kids who is struggling to pay her electricity bill to pay you back with interest.

          1. First, the money was not borrowed; it was stolen. Second, if the OP has to pay (or lose) interest on this, then the “borrower” should, too.

             Whatever it costs the OP is what the so-called friend should pay back, period.

             1. If you have enough good karma saved up that you can swing the bad karma that comes from putting the screws to your friend who is a single mom trying to keep the lights on, you are a far better person than me. By all means – ask her to pay back the charges if that is the path you want to take – but also asking for interest on $1000 is just a d*ck move.

             2. You are really obtuse, aren’t you? If the OP cannot afford to pay this in full immediately and has to pay interest on it, that is something the friend should pay. The OP would not be “charging” interest, as in, pocketing extra money; she is being reimbursed for what she is oaying to help her friend.

    8. You’ll have to talk to the credit card company, but you may need to be prepared to file criminal charges (or help the credit card company file them) to dispute the charge since you know who used the card.

    9. Thanks for the input, ladies. The sad thing is that I’ve been friends with her for over 30 years, and I would’ve never imagined her taking advantage of me like this. Lesson definitely learned!

       1. If she’s been your friend for 30 years, can you afford to just let her keep the $1000?

          1. Really? Yeah, maybe you can give really favorable no-interest terms for the original loan, but I’m not as inclined to be so compassionate when someone is stealing from me. The OP has every right to be stern here.

             1. It’s a question – there are several paths she can take. I’m also still not sure this isn’t either a mistake or a miscommunication.

       2. People who feel like they have no options will not act rationally. Your friend is going through something awful. You may have been careless in giving her your CC number, but imagine the relief she must have felt when she was able to buy pizza for her kids and keep the lights on. It’s totally fine to say to her (and to yourself), “nope, huge breach of trust, never again, and btw we’re not friends” but on the other hand, if you can spare the $1k, what an incredible gift you just gave her. Agree with other posters that past-due electric bills are not the same as a nordstrom shopping spree.

    10. Call her up and tell her “I just saw these unauthorized charges. I will give you until 5 p.m. today to either reverse the charges or give me cash or a cashier’s check for $1,000, otherwise I am going to dispute the charges with the credit card company.” And then do it. I think you can kiss the earlier money goodbye because you are never going to see it again, although maybe you can challenge those charges too since she has breached the agreement you made which was to only charge those items and no others.

        And yes, you have lost this friend. I’m sorry this has happened to you.

        1. Aren’t you an attorney? You won’t be able to dispute these charges. You gave her this info (similar to giving your card to your son) you can’t go to the bank and say well, I didn’t like what he bought with it.

           1. What? Yes you can. If I were to take my company’s card or any of the 50+ cards I have on file and buy unauthorized things they could very easily dispute the charges with the credit card companies.

    11. I will give a counterpoint and ask if you can give her the benefit of the doubt and ask her about the charges and see what she says. Someone who needs to use a friend’s cc to pay for their utility bills may be desperate. I’ve lent more money (by far) to friends who have needed it, with no expectation of repayment. If you are willing to give the same amount to charity, I think you should consider it a gift and not have any expectation that she will pay you back ever. I strongly feel that it’s never a good idea to loan money to friends – if you want to help them, give it to them as a gift.

        1. I completely agree with this. I never lend money but I have given many cash gifts to friends in need.

    12. I’m surprised at all the advice her suggesting you just give her the money. Being in a financially tight spot does not suddenly mean that you have a free pass to any behavior. While it’s not a shopping spree, cable and pizza are hardly essentials. If you had invited her over to your house and she stole from you while visiting I think you’d be getting very different advice.

    13. Thanks again, everyone. I expect she did intentionally use the numbers and that it wasn’t auto-populated, but I do think I should ask the question to confirm. I understand she is in a really tight spot, which is why I lent her the money in the first place, but she has come back asking for more and now may have taken more without asking.

        I am feeling taken advantage of – I generally give people the benefit of the doubt longer than they deserve it, so I am definitely listening to that gut feeling.

        1. I’m very sorry. I expect you were taken advantage of and, unfortunately, are likely losing money and a friend in the process. A hard lesson. I would certainly let her know that you did not authorize the charges and expect her to repay you, but I also think you need to prepare to never be repaid. Someone who isn’t paying utilities is going to put you last on the debt priority list, if you make it on the list at all. She’d be better off talking to a debt counselor. Also, in at least some states (I don’t know how many, but it’s the case in my very conservative state), utilities cannot shut off the source of heat in the winter if there are children in the house. She likely has other options that she could have pursued before pressuring you for money. If you’re worried about being a pushover, maybe in the future you can think of other ways you can help that don’t involve money (which seems to change a friendship no matter how it’s used, but especially when it’s a loan). Again, I’m really sorry this happened to you, especially when you were trying to help a friend.

19. Suggestions for working out at home? Like videos/streaming? I’m fairly athletic (collegiate athlete) although rather uncoordinated. Sometimes I just don’t have time for the gym or a class what with work, family, etc. I’m not a fan of MLM but I’ll go the Beachbody route if that’s the best thing out there. Thanks!

    1. Jillian Michael’s 30-day shred. Also I ked P90X, but I bought it on eBay to avoid the TV ordering stuff.

       1. I hate Jillian Michael’s so much but her workouts are super effective. I put the dvd on super low volume and play music.

       2. +1. It’s on Youtube as well. I also like to do Pilates on days I want more of stretching/toning than cardio/strength. There’s lots of options on Youtube.

    2. I do really like the Beachbody streaming. I do the Insanity workouts at home, on my iPad when I travel, etc. I haven’t really tried any of the other workouts on there, but it’s nice to have those as an option. It helps that my friend who is my “coach” never asks me about buying any other Beachbody stuff.

    3. I LOVE Melissa Bender’s workout videos (HIT/cardio/abs/etc). I find them far superior to Jillian Michaels’s videos and they are all online for free. Also she is pregnant and looks better than I ever did or will.

       1. I just looked up these videos because I hadn’t heard of her before. After looking at two in one of the 30-day workout series, I really wouldn’t recommend this – her form is way off in plank moves (her back is arched!) and her lower arms are kind of bent off to the side and not stable in side plank. I think this is why I prefer professional workout videos generally – the instructor typically shows what to do in great form, and often can use the “backup” exercisers in the video to point out specific things about how to do an exercise correctly. (I’m a Jillian Michaels fan).

       2. +1 for Melissa Bender

    4. Nike Training club App

    5. I was lazy about doing it, but I really liked the Daily Burn app. Lots of different workouts, and I think now they have a different new workout every day.

20. I’m a social, active person in a solitary, desk-bound job, and I find myself actually depressed by the end of the work day. Sitting in complete silence (you can hear a pin drop in my office) by myself all day with no access to natural light is slowly killing me. The difference in my mood at the beginning of the day (upbeat, chipper) and at the end (morose) has become startling clear to me and is actually a little scary to me.

    Ideas on what I could change to make my work environment better for me? Changing desks isn’t an option. I wish I could take a walk to break up the day, but I have to account for my time and my office is in a suburban office park surrounded by asphalt :/

    1. Do you work in a prison? (no offense to people who work in prisons)

       Get a new job.

       1. Get a SAD light for your cell.

    2. Can you use headphones while you work? Listen to comedy podcasts!

       Also, sounds silly, but get a small plant. Having a little bit of nature in my cubicle makes a huge difference for me. I even take it home on weekends to get it out of the office, ha!

    3. I am just like you. I don’t like sitting in silence and therefore, working as a solo lawyer would be a nightmare for me. It sounds like your office is not very social and is generally not the best environment for you. Can you look for another job or an industry that’s more collaborative? Some people just feed off the energy of other people while other people would rather work in isolation. For example, a start-up tech company with an open space plan might work for you.

    4. Even a 10 minute walk at lunch in a suburban concrete wasteland will be better than nothing, honestly. Additionally, buy a couple lucky bamboo/other hearty plants in smallish containers and rotate them at your office – bring one into the office, and switch it out with the one that’s been growing in the sun at home every couple of weeks to make sure the plants stay alive. This is what professional interior landscape companies do. Can you bring in some art you like? Rotating the art will also help – if you’re solitary at your desk all day, theoretically no one will notice/care if you have some funny (but work appropriate) art. Sun lamps do actually help, if you can use one of those.

    5. Headphones and a happy light. Play nature sounds from something like Noisli and turn on your anti-depression sun-mimicking lamp.

    6. I am an extrovert who spent 2 years in this kind of work environment. I am SO MUCH HAPPIER in my new, more social job. My advice is to stick it out for a year and then leave.

    7. In a similar boat, which I fight with: white noise, a plant, texting friends at lunch, and a colorful calendar that makes me smile.

21. I’m turning 30 soon, so I want to know- how much does a slowing metabolism affect you as you get older? How much do you notice it, and has it made it noticeably harder for you to lose weight/maintain your weight?

    1. Yes, harder to maintain and much harder to lose. I never used to worry about splurging on vacation or over the holidays because that extra 2-5 lbs would naturally come off with a month or two with normal eating/exercising. I also wouldn’t sweat missing the occasional workout. Now I have to carefully adjust my portions to account for even 1 missed workout. I also feel it a lot more the next time I go to the gym; I lose endurance and strength much more quickly.

       1. At what age did you start noticing this?

          1. Well I’m 31 now. I think the weight struggle started around 27-28 and I’ve just recently noticed the endurance and strength issues.

             1. Same for me. Part of it is just sitting at work all day, which wasn’t as much of an issue when I was younger, but the slowing metabolism seems to be a real thing. I miss 21-year-old me’s metabolism.

             2. Same. 31. Struggling very hard to get rid of 8-10lbs that just kind of crept on over a few months (like holidays) and would have normally slipped off again but didn’t.

    2. Not much. I am the fittest and at the lowest weight I’ve been since HS and I am 36. I was always skinny, but I was not healthy or fit. I am slim and healthy and fit now. I am probably a bad bit of anecdata for you though. I believe that most, if not all, of this is due to dietary and lifestyle changes. I don’t drink anywhere near as much as I did in my 20s, I eat FAR better than I did in my 20s, I exercise more, and my mental health is much better. I believe that my dietary have reduced my perceived hunger, which I assume has helped with my overall weight and fitness. What I mean by that is that I don’t eat many foods that are empty calories, which would cause me to be hungry again very shortly after eating them. I eat every couple of hours and never have huge meals.

       TLDR: it did not affect me in a way that I can observe. I am in the best shape of my life, BUT I changed my diet, lifestyle, and activity level so I am perhaps not the best piece of anecdata for you.

    3. I’ve definitely noticed slowed metabolism around 28/29/30. I used to be able to cut carbs for a week or two and feel bikini ready. It definitely takes more now. I eat fairly well but could definitely be more consistent with exercising. Strength training is definitely key in helping to maintain a healthy weight.

    4. I’m turning 31 next month and haven’t noticed any slowdown yet (knock on wood). I eat whatever I want (although I make an effort to include veggies with every home-cooked meal, I never forgo desserts or carbs) and don’t go to the gym, although I’m a pretty active person (for example, I always take the stairs instead of the elevator, enjoy going on long walks and hikes, etc.)

    5. I’m 34 now and it’s not been much of an issue for me. I gained 30 lbs in my late 20s, lost it on WW, and have been able to keep it off for 3 years with sensible eating and exercise. And yeah, I’ll splurge and eat horribly for a week or so, but my body is still reasonably quick to respond when I start eating sensibly and exercising again. (Dear self: the tub of a dozen cookies from the grocery store bakery is not an appropriate dinner for an adult. Love, self.)

       I think slowing metabolism is something we all have to watch for over the years; it’s not like you turn 30, and bam, you stop being able to eat a cookie.

    6. I had my third and last baby when I was 30. I’m 40 now. I haven’t found it very hard to lose weight. I was able to lose 30 pounds of baby weight without much issue in my early – mid 30s. In fact I’m more active, healthier and stronger now (will start training for my 3rd half marathon soon) than I ever was in my 20s. I weigh about 10 pounds more than I did before kids but I’m much happier with my body because of everything it can do now.

       I plan on keeping active for as long as possible. Someday I want to run a marathon, but right now I’m not willing to invest the time that requires.

    7. I noticed a difference at around 30 , and then again around 45.

       Harder to keep off, and harder to lose.

       But, not impossible. You just have to be more careful. I work out 4 times a week, and rarely drink (partly because it is empty calories I’d prefer to eat!). I eat very well 90% of the time.

       I am a healthy weight, happiest about 5 lbs less than I am right now.

       My biggest success, in staying slim the older I get, I think has come from having a very narrow band of what I will allow myself to weigh/inches I can be (this is probably a better measure). Not obsessively, but for me “nipping it in the bud” if my clothes start getting too tight, works well. I don’t count calories, just make an effort to tighten up my diet for a month or so.

    8. Honestly, it is not usually until you are in your 40’s and often later with menopause.

       There any many other reasons why weight gain happens earlier, but it isn’t usually hormonal.

       Many of us slow down in our 30’s in multiple ways, become more sedentary and run ragged trying to juggle work and family, and don’t eat/exercise as well.

       1. Yeah, I didn’t notice anything in my 30s, but during that whole decade I was often moving around during the day, not a desk bound job, walked to work or around campus a lot, etc. I did notice some difference when I moved to a job where I was more often at my desk. But wow, menopause slowed my metabolism right down. Now I have to really watch what I eat despite my two personal trainer strength training sessions per week, I daily check my fitbit to make sure I walk more than 10,000 steps per day, and I’ve taken up bike riding. And by watch what I eat, I mean all the time — around 1500-1600 calories per day even with purposeful activity, and no more “splurge for a week on vacation and I’ll take the extra lbs off easily the next week.” I’m not wiling to starve myself to drop the 10 lbs, it’s just not worth it. And I’d have to exercise like it was a full time job (and I have a full time job). For everyone who thinks weight gain after menopause is entirely under your control, you might have a shock coming.

    9. Fact: nearly all of the metabolic slowdown people experience when they age is due to muscle atrophy. You can prevent this by doing serious, regular strength training. I advise you to read several books before you get started so you don’t injure yourself.

    10. First, I don’t think you deserve a slap on the wrist for giving her the money: it was the compassionate thing to do. But don’t expect the money back, and don’t dispute the charges. Call her and give her an opportunity to explain that it was a mistake.

22. 30 didn’t do it for me, but mid-40s did. I used to be able to lose weight with minor modifications. I’ve got to be much more vigilant now. And sadly, I still exercise a ton. Unfortunately, unlike when I was younger, its not an excuse to eat whatever I want. I need to exercise a ton and restrict my eating in order to fit into my clothes. I do have a thyroid condition, so my metabolism is a bit slower but wow its a bummer sometimes. Still possible. Recently went high-protein low-carb low fat and dropped weight and now all my clothes fit again. Trying to stay this way!

    1. Weight training! Weight training, weight training, weight training. Lift lots of heavy weights, and your metabolism will pick back up.

       1. do it carefully – try to get a trainer or something if you can afford it!

          Signed,
          Zealous 10 year veteran of lifting who recently herniated a disc while deadlifting very heavy because she was tired and is in major pain and long recovery and newly reminded of how important good form is

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