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Anonymous
Do big news events in your field of work make you realize just how inexact the news is? My field is decidedly uncool and only ends up in the news at most once a year, it was in the news again yesterday and…. woof, so many elements of the articles are straight up wrong and could be easily rectified by looking at free publicly available online databases. Makes me wonder what news from fields I’m not an expert in I believe at face value when in reality it has a bunch of inaccuracies I just don’t have the knowledge to pick up on.
Anon
My goodness, yes. My company and clients make the news regularly. My spouse varies between laughing at the obvious errors in the reporting or taking them as gospel truth and then trying to incorrectly mansplain the intricate nuances of my job to me.
Anon
OMG, my husband mansplaining my own job to me would be grounds for divorce
Anon
Yeah same. Yikes!
Anon
Yup. I work for FEMA. Everybody is an armchair quarterback, very, very few people actually understand emergency management, disaster response, recovery, mitigation a d preparedness.
Cora
Yes 100%. My field is in the news fairly often and I’ve just realized that the way I perceive it and the way others perceive it are completely different. They focus on the wrong things, and its not anyones fault, because the news is also just focusing on not-as-important factors.
Also its a field where people do leak stories to a couple publications especially and no one guesses that.
Anon
I have had almost this exact thought. I am an employee benefits attorney, and the things I see in the news about benefits, especially in local news (and I am in a big city, so this is not from a guy on the radio in rural Iowa) are easily more than 50% wrong. National sources are not much better. The reporting about ACA, for instance, was embarrassingly shallow and wildly incorrect. And, yes, it definitely makes me question everything else I get from the news. I am a natural skeptic anyway, and this does not help.
Anon
Exactly this sentiment. A bit tangential however I remember first noticing this as a young adult when a family friend died in a tragic car accident. The person who was willing to be on camera commenting about the deceased was the worst representative of our local community and not friends with him. Now, I always question the “locals” or “neighbors” who are interviewed on-the-spot. Such irritating, fluff pieces that mean nothing.
Belle Boyd
I worked in radio for over a decade. The people who are always the first to jump in front of a microphone are always the ones who should never, EVER be allowed to speak on the air. It’s like that Jeff Foxworthy joke about how they all sound like they should be describing what the tornado sounded like when it ripped through the trailer park.
Anon
I’m going to look that up. Thanks!
Anon
Yup. Lawyer here. Some journalists are more competent than others when discussing legal stuff, but the amount of absolute nonsense presented as truth is shocking.
LA Law
Amen! I will never forget the LA Times writing about how the defendant referred to the allegations in a wage and hour lawsuit as “unverified” – which was technically correct but the implication is not at all what that means in California pleading practice.
But I suspect that for print journalism that is largely because they have cut all their senior staff and have nobody left with subject matter expertise – which is particularly important when talking industry specifics or science.
Seventh Sister
The LA Times is so uneven and it’s only gotten worse since the most recent sale. I cancelled my subscription last year in a fit of pique but I think about re-upping periodically.
Anon
Something tells me that your industry is container shipping, but I could be wrong.
Regarding the question: when I was in college and studying classical history, our professors drilled it into our heads that even a primary source could be wrong. People libeled others in their writing, were not reliable eyewitnesses, things got exaggerated through the tellings.
Then I see news coverage of stuff I know something about and know that not a lot has changed in two thousand years.
OP
I do work in shipping! But I work on the environmental safety side of it.
NYNY
I was thinking she’s a civil engineer, but same vibe.
Yes, I’m in medical billing, which is frequently in the news and almost always oversimplified or flat-out wrong. I think reporters try to portray the consumer side of the story, but weirdly also often side with insurance companies who are perfect villains.
anonshmanon
Definitely, but I’m blaming the decades long strategic efforts to finance and legitimize misinformation activists in my field (climate).
Anon
I also work in a field of science that relates to climate, but I actually think that the reporting on this has improved dramatically over the last 20 years that I’ve been following it. Not that there isn’t still bad stuff out there, but there’s also a lot of really excellent and very accurate reporting if you care to seek it out, both on climate and science more generally. When I see bad science reporting, it usually happens either because people are deliberating trying to mislead for political, financial or other reasons or because there many things that are genuinely unknown and it’s difficult to report with nuance when the experts really don’t know what to expect, like in the pandemic or other emergency situations.
Anon
If you haven’t seen strategic efforts to finance and legitimize misinformation in pandemic reporting, you haven’t been paying much attention! There are a handful of faux experts that are consulted over and over again even when they’re saying actual nonsense that is easily fact checked.
I will never forget how that big international Delphi consensus paper contrasted so wildly with what journalists have tried to portray as the science.
Anon
That was exactly my point- the bad science reporting occurs when people are deliberately trying to make it bad, and it’s usually fairly obvious to an unbiased observer, but convincing to someone who wants to be convinced.
Anon
Sorry I misparsed your sentence. There was some genuine confusion early on in the pandemic about some things (though it’s still frustrating that it was known to be airborne so early).
Anon
I think the airborne virus thing is yet another example that proves my point of exactly how good science reporting has gotten. I remember reading excellent articles about that very early on. The problem wasn’t with the journalism, it was with politicians and bureaucrats that weren’t willing to act on evidence that was significant, but not at the standard they usually require before they make policy recommendations. Given the emergency situation, it should have been sufficient to take precautions, but for a variety of reasons (mask shortages, China’s desire to hide how bad things had gotten, Trump’s desire to downplay the pandemic, a bizarre obsession with hand hygiene by the WHO, and the fear of being wrong and not having gone through proper procedure that pervades all bureaucracies), people didn’t act on that information for far longer than they should have. And then later on, politicians and the anti-mask people just went off the deep end with anything about how the virus spread. But the science reporting was fine, people just didn’t want to listen to it and deliberately tried to obscure it and play up any areas of doubt to their own benefit.
Anon
That makes sense; the good science reporting was there if people looked for it.
Makes me wonder if industry specific news is also more accurate or reliable
anon
Not industry news, but I came across inaccuracies/exaggerations in an article about my hometown. The piece was about a refugee haven in the middle of the deep south as if it’s something of a miracle… Look how refugees are able to thrive in the conservative Bible Belt and embraced by their southern (white) community! and umm, it’s a metro Atlanta suburb that is in a low income, predominantly black county that always votes blue. Then the article goes on to say “when people eventually secure savings and means they move to affluent areas such as A and B” but in reality A and B are still working class neighborhoods, if less ghetto. They are decidedly not affluent. It makes me cynical about every news article I read now.
Anon
Yeah I live in a blue, largely working class, majority minority SEUS city that has been known for welcoming refugees for generations, but that flies in the face of self congratulatory Yankee stereotypes. Your example is still pretty egregious though; people should know a little more than that about Atlanta!
Anon
We likely live in the same (awesome) city. Could not agree more with your statement!
My kid is a student in a school district that’s unfortunately been taken over by the (red) state. It’s a terrible thing overall, but even many the LOCAL reports about what is going on do not reflect reality and make it seem even worse than it is.
Anon
Hello, neighbor! In a similar vein, I hate when shows portray Atlanta as some backwater full of good old boys with heavy drawls rather than a predominately black city.
Anon.
Agree. Living in Indiana, what is portrayed in the media about our state (especially outside the US) are usually the worst and most egregious aspects of everything political. Now, those things are of course true, but people don’t realize that there are many culturally and ethnically diverse pockets even in Trump states, usually associated with universities/college towns.
Do I see trucks with confederate flags multiple times per week? Yes.
Does my kid’s class have kids from all over the world, speaking 15+ different languages at home, representing at least 4 continents and celebrating and including their heritage in daily life? Also yes.
Nothing is ever just black and white.
Anonymous
Hey, Clarkston!
anon
I’m Anon with the original comment about the news article: It’s Clarkston! And nearby affluent area is *drum roll* Lilburn! loling for days
Anecdata
Hahaha yes. Not just at work, pretty much any event I have more context/info about than “typical”
Anon
And on the flip side, every popular TV program in existence gets journalism wrong! There aren’t really reporters going rogue and writing and publishing their own stories (editors are HEAVILY involved, and there is chain of command), or reputable outlets publishing news with just one questionable source (everything is verified, with multiple sources).
Not my profession, but I think the same about my religion (Roman Catholic). It’s an enormous denomination and the general public thinks they know what it is and stands for, but news articles are always vastly oversimplified and usually incorrect in positioning or detail.
I guess the take away is that it’s hard to know what you don’t know, and impossible to know the nuances unless you are really steeped in that world.
Seventh Sister
Law shows vary a lot in terms of accuracy, but the one thing they almost always miss is that 95% of lawyers are not incredibly gorgeous beings wearing fancy tailored clothes. It’s a lot more My Cousin Vinny than Suits. That said, I really do think I got an A in Criminal Procedure because I watched so much original Law & Order.
While my religious denomination usually gets treated pretty well in the press (Episcopalian), I bristle at the use of “Christian” by journalists when they mean “evangelical” or “super duper conservative denominations bound together by their anti-abortion beliefs.” I do think that religious stuff often gets biffed up in movies and TV shows fairly often.
Runcible Spoon
Law and Order has had excellent law consultants from the very beginning.
Cb
Yep, I’m a political scientist, and the news is awful. And people (including journalists) don’t understand statistics.
Although a colleague made news yesterday with a speech on “99% odds…” and all the sideeye for that. A lot can happen in an election campaign, especially when we don’t even know when that election is (UK politics is weird).
anon
Yes, 100%. People have no clue, and I’m too tired to explain it to them.
Anon
Oh yes. I work in higher ed admissions at a selective university. LOTS of opinions that make no sense in reality! It’s so nuanced. My biggest pet peeve is “let’s say two candidates are exactly the same except one has XYZ and one has ZYX – which one do you admit?” – like I have been doing this for a decade and that has literally never happened. No two people and lives are the same! You can’t look at admissions that way!
Anon
I am a longtime alumna interviewer, have sat in on the admissions panels, have talked to admissions committee members and deans, and… yes. There is an ocean of difference between folk wisdom and what actually happens.
I don’t think people really process what it means to sort through twenty or forty thousand applications. Cut everyone who can’t do the work, cut everyone who is capable but just not in the same tier as the people you usually admit. Admit from the top down (sometimes) – take the Olympian, national contest winners, published authors. Fill holes – get all your sports teams covered, your orchestra filled, your newspaper staffed, get kids from all fifty states. Ensure that you have a diverse class: examine scores and extracurriculars in light of the students’ backgrounds. Financial need is a factor, both ways: you want kids who are first gen, but you also need kids who pay a substantial portion of the tuition.
My general sense is that if you have two identical students except for X, they are both getting in or both being rejected. The only time that would change is when, eg, the swim team needs a 200m butterfly specialist and is full up on 400m freestyle specialists; however, that could go one way in 2024 and the opposite way in 2026. It could also go one way at University A and the opposite at University B in the same year.
Anon
I’m a homicide prosecutor in a major city, and not only does the news get more wrong than right, but everyone thinks they understand my job because they watched a documentary or listened to a podcast. I have the thought you do constantly, OP.
Anon
My very specific criminal law annoyance is when the news includes the statutory max sentence in the article when almost no one will ever get that sentence imposed.
Runcible Spoon
My specific criminal law annoyance is when local TV reporters say things like, “No motive has been released yet,” meaning no investigator has speculated (immediately after the event, when no interviews have been done yet) as to what the suspected offender had in mind. I mean, who even knows, ever? Plus, motivation isn’t a fact that needs to be proved to convict a defendant (although admittedly it is easier to convict if the prosecutor can provide some evidence to show a jury or judge some reason the crime was committed).
Anonymous
Absolutely. I once had a reporter misquote a presentation I made to a legislative committee to make it sound as if I’d said the exact opposite of what I said.
Anonymous
I’m sure you were livid and I’m sorry that happened but all I could think was GOB “and don’t edit this out to make it look like I KILLED HIM!”
Anonymous
So this is terrible, but I’ve been actively avoiding most news about SCOTUS even though I’m a lawyer. All of my non-lawyer friends and family want to drag me into drawn out conversations that are… how do I put this… they’re arguing their feelings but they want to feel smart/informed so they try to couch it in legal analysis that was watered down by their news source and they misunderstood it anyway but they want me to tell them they’re right. It’s like a game of telephone but with the added bonus that I, as the person who understood the first message, “have” to tell the last person in line that they’re right about their wrong interpretation of the message. Otherwise their feelings get hurt and it’s a whole thing. I spend my days counseling clients about their mistaken beliefs about law and fairness, I don’t want to do it in my free time. I don’t want to manage people’s feelings about the law. I don’t want to argue “in favor” of things I don’t even necessarily agree with. I don’t care to try to educate people about something they don’t want to be educated about. And I don’t want to come away from these conversations thinking that my friends and family are idiots. It’s so much easier to just tell them oh I haven’t followed that what do you think and then mmhmm along with them. And that’s really hard for me to do if I’m actually informed about the thing.
Anon
Preach.
Runcible Spoon
I feel seen.
Anonymous
There is actually a term for this with respect to how one reads news articles outside of one’s expertise after reading an article littered with errors that you only notice because of your expertise: Gell-Mann amnesia effect.
Anon
I learned something new! Thanks!
Anonymous
Wooh this is exactly the type of insight I love from this board, thank you for sending me down that rabbit hole.
Anon.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing!
anon
Yes. UK cultural sector/cultural policy. I think a free press is incredibly important but it also makes me worry less about the the issues journalism and the news business are having when I see the media being so incompetent.
Anon
Yes! After over a decade in immigration, I totally avoid social media comments now, but I do occasionally check out newspaper comments and…it’s all bad. People with the biggest opinions have absolutely no perception of how anything works. Even the news often gets it wrong.
s
As a former journalist (20+ years ago), I weep. You go through so much schooling and grueling internships to end up at a job that makes the equivalent of a fast-food worker, where you again work grueling hours while always under the threat of job loss. You are pressured to quickly become an expert in EVERYTHING, and half the people you interview openly hate you (can only imagine what this is like now in the MAGA era). You sacrifice your personal and financial well-being to constantly work your way to bigger markets where you’re competing with some of the smartest people who are always willing to worker harder and cheaper. And at the end of the day, folks still turn to TikTok and insta for their “news.” We wonder why the news today is so inaccurate. We’ve gutted the local markets that were training grounds, education to pay ratio has only gotten worse since I was in school so those pursuing are limited, speed trumps accuracy and quality in the push to do more with less, and you’re forced to constantly defend your place in life to every Uber driver or cocktail party housewife who can’t separate someone who covers the local city council meetings and community features from wacko national political pundits. No resources and no respect. I’d love for most people to try a week on the job. I guarantee they would view news development in an entirely different light.
Anon 2.0
This. My husband worked as a videographer for a local news station out of college. He had to ensure he removed his badge (it was quite large) when he was on breaks as he was screamed at several times by random people at gas stations, etc bc they didn’t like the news coverage.
Anon
It sounds like you were an entirely different kind of journalist. I’ve known journalists who really did the work! But I’ve also met more journalists who have a very different outlook on what the job even is; I guess they’ve accepted the new norms by now and are happy to sell a media narrative. They’ve also accepted the financial realities and are not always relying on the job to make a living (because of inherited wealth or spousal income or both). But I still feel that if I can efficiently fact check a news article that is not within my area of expertise, why couldn’t the journalist have done that?
Anonymous
This may be one of the most out-of-touch comments I’ve read. Are you referring to an insta influencer or an actual journalist? You’re not going to get time and talent to do true fact-checking (yes, there are actual standards) when it’s being done as a part-time job or one that relies on…generational wealth.
Try hiring your next college-educated (often advanced degree) employee on this premise and let me know what you get.
Anon
The whole point is that they aren’t fact checking and are reporting falsehoods and nonsense.
anon
Preach.
Anonymous
+1. Undergrad degree in journalism, worked at newspapers for 6 years after college before getting out to make enough money to actually pay my bills.
Anon.
Working in the pharma industry, I notice that a lot.
Are some practices of how medicines are marketed and approved questionable? Probably.
Are we all evil money-grabbing lobbyists who like to get people hooked on expensive, harmful treatments for the rest of their lives? No.
Anon
+1. Also in pharma. It is not the flush industry it once was…
Anon
I’m a patient with a disease that just had a break through treatment FDA approved yesterday. I’m super frustrated with my fellow patients who 1) don’t understand why they couldn’t get their doctors to write prescriptions for it yesterday morning before the final FDA approval, 2) think the “government” is setting the price, 3) don’t get that it will take a bit of time to make it into insurance formularies, 4) think big pharma is hiding an cure and pushing a treatment.
Anon
FDA takes too long; it needs more funding, but it’s okay to complain!
Insurance has also lost everyone’s patience for reasons. I know people who have ended up in the hospital waiting on insurance. They have blood on their hands.
anon
Long ago, I worked as an administrative assistant for a local lawyer. He wanted to start offering pet trusts and somehow got a contact from our local paper to write a story on the topic. The reporter did ask me a few questions, but the resulting article ended up being largely about my “experience” with my pet trust (I didn’t have one) and fabricated a scene in which I had pictures of my pet all over my desk and referred to it as my child. I was so embarrassed. I really take anything I read in the press with a big grain of salt now.
anon
100% yes. I’m in commercial real estate. It’s bananas how wrong, inaccurate or incomplete the reporting has been over time and especially since COVID. Infuriating, actually.
eggplant
I might be alone on this hill, but I actually find legal reporting to be pretty decent. Most major news organizations still have dedicated legal correspondents, and law is not usually so hypertechnical that a thoughtful person who reads through the briefs and opinions couldn’t get the arguments. Sometimes I get mildly ticked when the reporter gets so wrapped up in a particular partisan narrative that they underappreciate how hard certain issues might be, but honestly, even legal specialists can do the same sometime.
Senior Attorney
Yes, indeed. Every time I have had personal knowledge of a news story, the coverage has ranged from slightly wrong to completely wrong.
Seventh Sister
Same.
Anon
Yes I used to work for AIG! I was there in 2008. So, so much of the reporting was wrong.
Nesprin
Science+ health journalism is incredibly hard to do well, but there’s a special place in my liver for “X cures cancer” headlines. They’re always wrong, incomplete, or unconnected to evidence.
Anon
Yep. I was involved in litigation in 2007 that made international news. BBC and Al Jazeera were the best source, then the NYT. Florida papers were grossly inaccurate.
Anon
Absolutely gorgeous colour.
Anon
And the top looks amazing tucked in!
Betsy
I try not to complain about polyester options, but it is one of my biggest pet peeves when companies call their polyester products “better than [natural fiber].” I promise you this >$100, 100% polyester blouse is not better than silk.
Anonymous
Agree, this shirt would turn me into a sweaty Betty. The underarm stank would be awful.
Anon
+1 I’ve stopped buying polyester!
Anon
+2 I know it’s fine for some people, but it makes me sweat like none other.
Anon
Agreed. I feel this way about “vegan leather” too. Just tell me you are going to charge $300 for shoes made of plastic.
Anon
Vegan leather is one of my biggest pet peeves. No it’s f&ing plastic and probably worse for the environment than real leather.
anon
Word. It’s f&cking pleather, let’s not try to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.
Anon
I see what you did there…. :)
Anon
Longtime vegetarian here. I purchase some leather goods – wallet, purse, boots – that last me far, far longer than other alternatives. These items go strong for a decade. It is a trade off between environmental impact and animal welfare; they don’t align in some instances.
Anonymous
Get second hand leather goods! Then you aren’t contributing to demand but still get something that will last a long time.
Anon
Pet peeve: people who tell me to DO something, not say that it’s an option.
The brand new leather wallet that I bought in the summer of 2001 (yes, before the Twin Towers fell) is still going strong. I DGAF whether or not that purchase “contributed to demand” because one leather wallet every quarter-century is not something I will spend time sweating.
Second pet peeve: people who assume that because I’m already vegetarian, I have more bandwidth than the normal person to do **even more** to help animals and the environment. Sorry, I already spend a lot of time buying organic and local, finding good vegetarian protein options, making a second dinner for our family because I’m the only vegetarian. LMAO, no, I’m not going to scour consignment shops for second hand leather.
Anons
There’s nothing wrong with deciding you prefer materials that aren’t made from animals, even though they may not be more eco-friendly.
There’s a LOT wrong with marketing vegan leather alternatives as “better for the planet” when they’re not.
Anon
I still like rayon. I would assume a better than silk top would be made of rayon, which is a man made fiber from natural materials.
Anon
As one of those anti-poly people, I can agree with this.
Anon
Nylon also has a place.
Anonymous
Agree. Rayon and cupro are lovely materials… there are a number of wood pulp fabrics that are excellent quality, and while not better than silk, a nice alternative to silk.
I guess polyester could be better than silk for, what, rain gear?
Anon
A favor: a month or so ago someone posted a car service for going from Newark airport into NYC. This would be for a family with luggage, so a minivan or SUV is needed. Can you repost? Thank you!
Cat
Is there a reason you wouldn’t just do an Uber or Lyft?
Anon
It was a well-recommended service. We live where Lyft / Uber isn’t really a reliable option and would prefer it.
anon
uber and lyft are very reliable in NYC/NJ. you can order an SUV specifically.
Anon
Do this.
Anonymous
Because they are gross and creepy?
Anon
In NYC, Uber and Lyft drivers have to be licensed and registered just like yellow cabs or car services. Not to say that none of them are gross or creepy, but that they are not any more gross or creepy than other cab options.
Anon
Say what you want about SF but one of our best recent developments is the Waymo driverless cars. No creepy drivers ever.
Anon
Gross and creepy?? okay.
Anon
Get the Uber comfort or Uber XL.
Comfort is usually only a few dollars more and the cars are consistently clean and the drivers more professional. They have to jump through some hoops to get the label.
Every time I’ve ordered an Uber XL, it has basically been a car service driver just using Uber for the day.
anon
Uber Black is by definition town car/limo drivers – in every city you go to in the US – that’s what the “Black” is. The only difference with booking directly through an agency is that they pick up at baggage claim and help with the luggage somewhat.
Anonymous
I had a very creepy experience with LYFT at Newark late at night. They ended up going backward on the shoulder of Route 1/9 to get to an exit for about 100 yards and said they had been working since 7 am and were having trouble staying awake. Hire a comfy town car or van if you can afford it. Gem Limo is excellent.
NaoNao
Honestly lately Uber and Lyfts have felt anywhere from “just okay” to downright dangerous. I’ve had people all but nodding off while driving, people driving very recklessly, people who showed up with a passenger in the passenger seat and were confused/upset when I declined the ride and reported them, and so on. I’ve had hundreds of solid/decent rides too, (I don’t drive by choice) but if it were a Major Event and I needed to be there, I’m not sure I’d rely on Uber/Lyft especially from or to the airport, those drivers in particular seem to be represent the worst of the type.
Anon
Yeah, I had an Uber driver drive us into the restricted area of an airport, speed past security trying to redirect him, ultimately to be stopped by three airport police cars. Given security risks, I was convinced we were going to be shot at or at least arrested. I know that won’t happen with all Uber drivers. But I also am confident it will happen with no licensed taxi services. Sometimes regulations are not entirely pointless.
Anon
I am no longer using Uber regular service after several completely sketchy experiences in different major US cities – the final straw was one driver picking us up and completing his court-ordered breathalyzer installed on his steering wheel while driving us to dinner. On the one hand, he wasn’t drunk… but on the other hand, I am completely enraged that the only response we got from Uber was a refund. He was clearly on probation for a DUI.
Anonymous
Try Eastern – easternride.com
NYCer
Legends Limousine. We use it because they have high quality car seats, but they are great overall aside from the car seats.
NYCer
I realize my second sentence could read confusing / that the car seats aren’t great. The car seats are great and the service is great! :)
Anon
OP here. This was the one. Thank you!
Anon
Any Nashville must-do recommendations? I will be in town for a work event next month and have a few midday hours free one day, midafternoon another day, and evening a third day. Prefer to keep it walking distance from downtown Hilton. Thanks!
Lyssa
There’s a Tennessee history museum (sort of the outskirts of downtown) that is really great (and free!). It starts pretty much with what was Tennessee like when the earth started cooling and goes on up to the present. (I first heard about it when I asked a similar question here.) Husband and I spent about 2 hours there and have been dying to go back and spend a bit more time. We also enjoyed a few hours walking around the capital building; it’s pretty quiet if the legislature is not in session, but really neat to see the governor portraits, busts, where the lawmakers sit, etc.
For evening, it’s silly, but I’ve always really enjoyed just wandering around Broadway – you can wander in and out of the music venues pretty easily, and they’re really very fun (and not ALL country music – there are usually a ton of conferences, so there’s a lot that’s geared towards 40-ish folks who are getting a break from their kids and houses (i.e., me)).
FP
Hi! I’m a Nashville native! The Country Music Hall of Fame is right behind the Hilton, so if it’s an indoorsy day, that’s a good option. Assembly Hall at Fifth and Broadway is a good meal destination – tons of options and lots of local restaurants have a counter-service space there. Since you’re on Broadway, on a nice evening I would lean in and just walk up and down the street and pop into a few places to hear music and have a drink. My recommendation is always Robert’s. Also at Fifth and Broadway – the National Museum of African-American Music. It’s wonderful. Have fun!
Formerly Lilly
If you go to Broadway keep your wits about you. On a lighter note, check the concert schedule for the Ryman and if there is a show you would enjoy while you are there don’t miss it. It’s a unique experience. If you like classical music, Nashville’s symphony hall, the Schermerhorn, is downtown. It’s also good for fans of great architectural design. Martha Ingram loaded her jet with the design team and they toured the great halls of Europe. The overall design is fabulous, and the merest details in the design are lovely. A tour of Hatch Show Print is interesting. It’s a letter press printer that has been in business since the 1800’s. It’s also a good place to buy a souvenir that you don’t regret owning once you’ve returned home.
Anon
My first plane trip since pre-pandemic is approaching quickly and I have lost all idea of what is reasonable when it comes to packing. Is it realistic to pack for a three day business trip using just my office-appropriate backpack and a purse? I will be attending a training event in a hotel conference venue, not presenting and not doing anything like client networking. The idea of schlepping a wheeled carry on around makes me cringe.
Anonymous
Why. This is like ok sure you probably could? It’s going to be hard and be wrinkly and you’re making things needlessly difficult just for the sake of it. Which like whatever have fun?
Anon
I would think that a weekender bag and a laptop bag would be better.
Anon
Everyone else will have a wheely bag, I’m not sure what’s cringe about that, but I guess it depends on if you’re a light packer or not.
test run
I couldn’t fit 3 days’ worth of stuff into a regular backpack, but I do regularly travel for work with my duffel backpack (Osprey, Patagonia, North Face, etc. all make one). I just find it easier to haul around/shove in an overhead bin than a hard suitcase. I’m pretty sure all of my colleagues travel with a wheeled bag, but no one has every commented on it to me.
Anonymous
Seems OK to me as long as you can fit all your stuff in it. You can probably just wear your blazer on the plane, bring 3 shirts and 2 pairs of pants, 1 pair of nicer shoes and a PJ/lounge set and you’re done. I usually check a bag because I like to bring hair styling tools (the hotel hair dryer is usually either awful or not existent) but you do you.
Cat
I’m not seeing the cringe about a real carryon? You can always store it at your hotel before and after checkin or checkout times so it’s not like you have to have it follow you around the whole conference.
I’d say at the bare minimum you’d need a second pair of shoes (no way do your feet – or your shoes – want you to be in the same pair for 3 days of walking around a conference), two pairs of pants, 3 tops, a wrap for unpredictable temps, undergarments, PJs, laptop & charger, perhaps a change of clothes for evening (so you don’t have to wear bus cas for dinners & drinks OR for ordering room service), exercise stuff if you plan to fit in workouts, and toiletries & makeup. That is a LOT to ask a backpack to handle in a way that isn’t bursting at the seams and leaving you rumpled and wrinkly.
anon
No. No it’s not realistic. What in the world is wrong with a wheeled carry-on?
Anon
I feel like the wheelie bags are great for work trips because my laptop tote can wheel around on top and not on my shoulders. I save the backpacks for non-work non-plane trips.
NY CPA
I certainly couldnt fit 3 days worth of work clothes, pajamas, makeup/toiletries, work-appropriate shoes, plus my laptop, charger, etc. in my work backpack. You do you if you can, but I would absolutely expect everyone else to bring a wheeled carryon.
Anon
I fly spirit a lot for personal travel and I can and do pack for 3-4 days in a regular backpack or tote, however if I gave the option of a wheeled carryon I 100% take it!!
Anonymous
we just flew spirit – their “personal bag” carry-on sizes were huge – my 50L 22″ foldable duffle bag was pretty stuffed. I think you could fit work clothes in there, but you couldn’t ALSO bring a backpack (purse would have to fit in there too when boarding).
Anonymous
There is no way you can fit clothes and toiletries into an office-appropriate backpack. Those are made to just barely fit your laptop, chargers, purse contents, umbrella, notebook, and water bottle. Maybe headphones if you are lucky.
Anon
What? Do you want to appear homeless? And why bother going if you’re not going to network.
Anonymous
Carrying two bags sounds way more burdensome to me. Backpack plus purse isn’t exactly a great looking combination. You’ll look like a tourist not a business traveler.
NaoNao
I think you’ll regret it. There’s so many little comforts that make a difference in your experience–shower slides or flip flips to run to the vending machine or laundry or car or pool being just one that comes to mind, that trying to cram your what–ONE replacement outfit (how much can really fit in a backpack anyway?!?!) seems like you’ll be trying to prove some point or something.
I’d go with a carry on weekender bag. Think through your day to day routine–what shoes, socks, pajamas, hair ties, makeup, perfume, hair brush, and so on do you use to feel confident and comfortable. You’ll already be off-balance from travel, don’t make it worse by having to rush to CVS and replace underwear or whatever.
anon
I would do a carry-on. Most overnight conferences I go to have a cloakroom or you can leave luggage at a permanently-manned reception desk, they know people will have cases: you don’t have to wheel it around the event with you.
Anon
Everyone else will be using a wheelie bag, not dragging a large backpack. Get a smaller one if yours is oversized – I have a travelpro which is a few inches smaller than the max airline carryon size and it’s honestly perfect and I prefer it to my bigger one.
Anon
Are you not staying in a hotel room for tbeee days? Why do you need to schlep your roller on the conference floor or to the training?
For what it’s worth, every time I go to a conference or offsite meeting, a hefty percentage of the attendees show up with their bags the morning of the last day. They’re usually all lined up by the door & ready to go, and then people start disappearing around lunch, with their bags.
Anon
Bring whatever baggage suits you. I really don’t see why you couldn’t use a backpack if you wanted to, I’ve done it plenty of times. Not sure I understand why you’d cringe over a wheeled carry on. It’s not like you’d bring it to the conference.
meet me in Paris
I’m heading to Paris next month for a whirlwind weekend – meeting DH after his business trip wraps up for a short getaway. This is our (checks privilege) 4th time there, so we’ve done most of the tourist short-list items already and the goal here is mostly walking and eating with some culture sprinkled in.
To that end… our most recent visit was pre-Covid so looking for updated ideas. Prior trips we enjoyed long lunches at Frenchie and Septime (all the amazing flavors, less $$ than dinner res!), the Dior exhibit at the Decoratif, repeat visits to our favorite nearby cafes, sitting in the sun and watching kids play with the boats in Luxembourg Gardens, and targeted museum visits (we enjoy 2 hours or so at a time before we max out on art, etc) to give better context for travel style.
Also, I’m considering a VCA visit as I’ve been eyeing the Alhambra earrings forever and think they might be my treat-yo-self bonus reward this year. Any advice for high-end shopping? Have previously only shopped at department stores, not $$$ designer.
Flats Only
I enjoyed the Musee Nissim de Camondo (preserved fancy 19th C. mansion w/ exquisite art and decor) and the Musee Cernuschi (Asian art), both very close to Parc Monceau. Both museums are small and you could do both in less than 3 hours, even with the short walk between them. Not sure about the dining scene around there, but there did seem to be plenty of cafes. Parc Monceau has a number of fun architectural “follies”, and was quite pleasant for sitting in the sun and people watching.
Anonymous
If you haven’t been to the catacombs, I think they are very cool, but it might not be your kind of thing.
Anon
+100. The history is fascinating. It’s like a creepy underground cathedral/cave.
NY CPA
For high end shopping in Paris, I suggest dressing nicely (doesn’t need to be fancy, just well put together and polished), and arriving at the store as they open for the best service. I haven’t been to VCA in Paris, but other luxury stores I’ve been to get very crowded during the day and waits to speak with a sales associate can be long (like 2 hours at Chanel!!). Make sure you carry your passport, as you’ll need it at the store if you want to get a VAT refund.
Also, are you looking to buy because of potential savings? If so, do some research before you go so you know how much you would actually save, if any. All the luxury websites I’ve been on let you switch between countries so you can check prices in other currencies. For example, VCA sells the Alhambra vintage sized earrings with mother of pearl for 4350€ in France, for which you can get a VAT refund of about 400€, so lets say around $4300-4400 depending on the rate your credit card uses to exchange. The same earrings are $4,050+tax in the US, or about $4400 using NYC tax rates. So you may not save anything buying in Paris, which is fine if you’re just doing it for the experience/memory, but I just recommend going in with the facts so you’re making an informed decision.
Anonymous
+1 to this. I’d also strongly suggest making an appointment or having your hotel’s concierge do so. I’ve had shockingly bad service from high end brands in Europe compared to stores in the US/APAC.
Senior Attorney
Yes and they often have lines to get in.
Sasha
In my experience, buying in France is usually ~20% cheaper than in the US once VAT refund is factored in. My most recent designer bag purchase was $3,320 purchased in store in Paris, and would have been $4,250 if purchased in the US.
Anon
Personally I’d contact VCA ahead of time and make an appointment for when you’re there. And no need to apologize or check your privilege.
NYCer
Fondation Louis Vuitton is worth a visit if you have not been. We also like the sculpture garden at the Rodin museum.
Senior Attorney
The Louis Vuitton store in Saint-Germain-des-Pres is great and likely to be less crowded than the flagship store. Also it’s right across the street from Cafe de Flore, which is great for a snack and a drink and people watching. And next door to Les Deux Magots, another great cafe. And of course the Marais is great for shopping.
Also you might want to consider a shopping tour with a guide. You can find them on Viator or Tours by Locals dot com.
Anon
I would go to Guerlain on the Champs Élysées or the one in the Marais to find a new special fragrance.
Anon
On that note, I really like the Serge Lutens store at Jardins du Palais Royal. Gorgeous location, unique scents (they lean woodsy androgynous, YMMV but I love them).
Anon
Musée de la Chasse et de la Nature for something weird in a very cool way.
meet me in Paris
Thanks all! These are great suggestions. The Fondation hadn’t been built yet our last trip (I think? What is time?) and def of interest.
As for VAT – fair point – it’s just more fun to buy in Paris as a memorable souvenir than ordering by phone and waiting for FedEx!
Anon
The Musee Cluny was recently renovated top to bottom (we were there in January 2020, when only a small portion was open while they were working). Worth two hours (more if you are a museum buff, but you can do a creditable job in two hours – unicorn tapestries are the highlight).
Sasha
If you’re interested in shopping at Dior, I have a sales associate at their St Honore store who is wonderful–I can pass on his information if you’re interested. There is usually more of an expectation to buy when meeting an SA directly but he’s never pushy. The benefit with an SA appointment is that you get to skip the line into the store if there is one, and you’re taken upstairs to their private showing rooms which has a higher level of service (lounge areas, full champagne and beverage service, little gifts, etc.) I also have a large spreadsheet of recommended activities and restaurants in the general Paris area. Feel free to email me at sasharette515 at gmail for either/both!
Anon
Would you call what I’m about to describe scorekeeping or something else? If a couple generally tries to trade off nights doing the bedtime routine but one of the parents had to travel and missed two of their nights, is it scorekeeping to say “welcome home, now you’re on duty for four nights?” Another example would be saying something like “I’m really tired after __ happened, but it’s my turn to cook dinner so I have to do it” instead of seeing if the spouse is available/willing to cook dinner instead.
The reason I ask is because my best friend passed me a random piece of marriage advice from a professional athlete who said that a strength of her marriage is that she and her husband don’t keep track of who did what last – they just always aim to make their spouse’s day easier, whatever the day brings. Said friend passed this on as part of a conversation where she confessed that she was resentful her marriage was not like that but that she doesn’t know how to stop keeping score when there is a really strong division of labor mismatch in her house (she does 90% of the work at least). I feel bad for her and wish the scorekeeping could stop but I truly do see that she’s doing SO much work – how can you be sanguine and put your spouse first when it’s that unequal? Anyway, it just got me thinking and I’m curious what others think. In my own marriage, we do trade tasks (whoever cooks doesn’t clean the kitchen, for example), but I haven’t noticed much tension if someone needs to skip their turn. Then again, we’re boring and have a solid routine that doesn’t get interrupted that much. My best friend seemed open to advice but our situations just feel different.
anon
I think that advice works only if both parties are doing their best to make life easier for the other and have good intentions. It does not work when the division of labor is out of whack and one spouse is consistently not pulling his or her weight.
Anon
This right here. When both parties have the attitude of us>partner>self, it works beautifully. When that doesn’t exist, it’s a disaster, especially if weaponized by the freeloading partner.
Anon
+2. I wish I had a marriage like that in terms of division of labor, but I don’t, so I do engage in scorekeeping. Otherwise I’d be doing 95% of the work instead of 70-80%.
Anon
So what does that look like in practice? Does the scorekeeping actually get your spouse to do more work than he/she would otherwise?
Anonymous
Not anon 10:42 but for our house that looks like a defined list of chores that each of us does. For example, he does all dishes. I do all laundry. The sink may overflow but I hold the line and send the kids to ask him for a spoon. It didn’t take long before he realized I wasn’t going to bail him out.
We each cook half the meals and he does all clean up. I do floors/vacuuming/dog care/school admin etc. Basically we made a list of every single thing that needs to be done and split it up. We also have a list for kids chores but we are each responsible for making the kids help with our area when it’s their turn. It sounds dumb but it really works for us. No more frustration on my end that I’m the only one washing towels or changing sheets and he doesn’t get annoyed with how I load the dishwasher.
It helps that we have relatively equal jobs in terms of time commitment and high profileness. And there is an extension of kindness when things go off the rails. I had to stay late at work last night so he picked up kids even though it was my day but then cooked the easy dinner which we agreed I would do later in the week. So I’ll probably do an alternate easy meal and cover pick up that day when it’s his turn. We try to think of it as tag teaming life vs scorekeeping.
Anon
Totally agree. I had to scorekeep with my ex husband (emphasis on ex) because he would otherwise do nothing – zero, zip, nada. I swear to god the number of times I heard “but I worked all day and I’m tired” when, hey buddy, I also work all day and usually longer hours than you.
Score keeping is the only way in that kind of relationship.
The philosophy of making your spouse’s life easier only works when your spouse actually cares about that.
Cat
I don’t know how scorekeeping is used officially but what you described in your first paragraph sounds super rigid and annoying to me. Like business trips aren’t fun – they are exhausting – and if my husband was like “here now you have to do all chores for the next 2 days to make up for my extra work” that would not be well received.
Anon
Agreed. There may be a way to better divvy up, but that’s not handled well in the moment when someone walks through the door after what may have been a grueling trip. Maybe in some industries business trips are fun, but in mine the hours are much longer, we rarely leave the hotel/client/conference, they often have high emotions, and you’re traveling on top of that. The division of labor discussion is totally fair game pre- and post- trip (like maybe over the weekend and a discussion of what tactically to try this week to make it feel better) but not as a “gotcha” when both people are tired in the heat of the moment.
Anonymous
Business trips are never as exhausting as trying to work full time and put to bed 3 kids under the age of 5 and keep the dog from chewing up everything in site.
DH and I definitely treat business trips like a mini vacation. I can’t wait for my next business trip! No washing dishes and I’m the only person I have to shower and dress and feed. It’s a mini vacation even if the meetings run to midnight at least i know no one is waking me up crying at 3am.
Anonymous
Yikes. Another reason I’m one and done.
Anonymous
The difference is real. With one kid, if they wake up once a week, that’s one night per week. With 3 kids, even if they only each wake up once a week, that’s 3/7 nights. DH and I take turns wearing ear plugs vs being on night duty.
We intended 2 but had spontaneous twins the first month trying for our second so we ended up with 3 under 3.
Anon
I’m also one and done, but I still think business trips are easier than solo parenting a young child (under 5 or so). It depends on the line of work and the nature of the trip of course, as well as whether the business travel is evenly distributed. My husband does 100% of the business travel and I would be resentful if he didn’t pick up a little extra when he came home, because it is tough to always be the parent left behind to do the solo parenting.
Anon
A lot of the advice assumes that the spouse HELPS, acts in good faith, and does a decent amount of work. In that case, yes, they should avoid scorekeeping. But for many (including me), this advice is gaslighting. One spouse is not reasonable, and the spouse is forced to shed a light on it and draw reasonable boundaries. A lot of modern relationship advice is predicated on a fair(ish) distribution of labor. It’s of no use for other situations.
Anon
This is a good point.
Senior Attorney
THIS. All of this “no scorekeeping” advice presumes a partner who is acting in good faith and with good intentions. If you don’t have that, the advice doesn’t apply.
Anons
And it’s not HELPING, it’s the spouse doing a fair share.
Anonymous
I mean you have to have a decent spouse for this to work. She obviously does not.
Anon
But for people with decent spouses, do you do what I described in the first paragraph? If you missed your turn to cook dinner for a work event, are you on double-duty the next day?
Cat
I have a great spouse and no, we don’t act like this. But it’s fair over time, as in we each sometimes have after-work commitments or business travel and the other person pitches in with more of the housework, not the “one person ends up doing 90% consistently.”
Anon
When I get home from work travel, the last thing I’m able to do is extra work. I eat cereal for dinner or something from the freezer. This is why I don’t have kids, but even if I did, most kids are perfectly happy to do that too! I don’t see why it has to be a question of whose turn it is to make dinner. When there’s too much work to be done, the answer is that you need to do less work, not fight over who does it.
Anon
Or simply see who has the bandwidth for work. I could see someone coming home from a trip and saying “my meeting ended early and I actually managed to take a cat nap on the plane. Let me take the kids to the park and spend some time with them while you chill” without pairing it with “and because I’m selflessly taking the kids, you have to watch them tomorrow.” Sometimes you can just do a favor…
Anonymous
Your last sentence. I figured this out the hard way. OP, your friend might need to call in or hire some help. My partner and I both tend to scorekeep. It’s something we’re working on, but it’s 1000x easier not to scorekeep, when you’re not constantly running on fumes.
Vicky Austin
“Sometimes you can just do a favor.” In the book How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids (which I found very helpful despite the title making me cringe), they call this “not peeing on the gift.”
Colette
I am the one that travels for work.
For us, it would depend on the nuance of the situation.
Definitely I would take the “harder” task that we rotate on the day I come back, unless it was something terrible like I had the stomach virus while traveling.
If my spouse had a really tough time at home while I was gone (ie kids had pink eye while I was gone for three days), I will take the two shifts in a row of the “harder” tasks to make up for it.
I think this strategy only works though if both spaces are trying to be generous with the other.
If one spouse doesn’t do their fair share, then yes I can see how a better accounting system is required.
NaoNao
Occasionally–like for example I’m on a “watch what I eat” kick and it means more dishes than usual. I’ll pitch in a bit even though that’s my husband’s chore mostly. Same thing with the cat box. When the litter Robot developed an odor that nothing would resolve, we talked it over–the cat box used to be his chore, which he solved with the robot. Since I was asking to get rid of the robot, I agreed to take over the cat box.
We recently tightened our belts and let our cleaning ladies go, so I asked him “we need to figure out who’s going to do those chores” and we agreed on he does dishes (which the ladies didn’t do, but he’d do ALL dishes) and I’d go countertops and cabinets (sponging and keeping clean).
Anonymous
I have a great spouse and while we often have an outcome that is similar to what you describe, the tone/exchange is different. If it’s my night to make dinner and I have a work event, the next night I offer to make dinner even if it’s my husband’s night. Or if he was away at a conference for 2 days and he comes back, he’ll offer to do bed time for 2 nights because he wants to see our kid and give me a break.
No one says “you have to make this dinner to keep things even” but we offer in the spirit of being generous, recognizing the other person needs a break, and wanting to spend time with our kid since we missed bedtime/dinner/whatever the prior night.
So in practice, it’s similar, but the underlying reasons/tone/exchange are much more positive.
Senior Attorney
I wouldn’t do this. Maybe it would be “every man or woman for him- or herself” for dinner. Maybe we’d go out. Maybe I’d suck it up and take my turn anyway. I’d assume with a decent spouse it would even out over time.
Anon
Yes, I think this is scorekeeping. In my marriage, I had a lot of this type of scorekeeping. That marriage ended in divorce. My current relationship has none of it! Here’s the difference.
In my marriage, I was carrying a huge portion of the physical and mental load. Not 90% but far far more than half. I did t fee like my ex husband contributed to the needs of the household. So it resulted in me TRYING to make things equal by remembering who changed the toilet paper last and who swept the kitchen last, etc.
My current relationship is way different. We handle our own stuff and we basically have domains of the household. His is the kitchen and the dog stuff. This means he owns those tasks. I never have to even think about dog food bc it’s his job to determine when to buy it and then to get it done. He cooks and cleans most nights. I will say that if he’s been very busy and I haven’t, then I’ll buy dinner out or make it sometimes. He does the same for me if I’ve been very busy and the bathroom needs cleaning. For me, this type of behavior signaled that the emotional and physical and mental areas of the relationship weren’t equal.
If I were your friend, I’d talk to husband more about him taking ownership of entire areas of the household instead of counting who does what each specific night.
anonshmanon
This is also how we do it. For example, Husband is responsible for laundry, and he owns that task (putting detergent on the shopping list and realizing that rain in the forecast means the washing should be taken in). It means we don’t negotiate constantly who’s turn it is. We also assigned chores based on personal preference which saves energy in my opinion.
Anon
It really is easier to have separate domains.
My husband and I currently have separate specialties. He doesn’t cook & doesn’t plan meals. I wash the pots and pans and knives, but he loads the dishwasher (because he doesn’t think anyone else does it right.) He does the laundry except for handwashing, which I do since I’m the one being fussy about that. We no longer have a cleaning service so I’d say I do the majority of dusting and sweeping/vacuuming but when I get too busy at work he will pick it up when he notices it needs doing.
He pays the bills (from our combined money) but I do all of the major household planning. Like the other day some guys with a tall ladder pulled up in our driveway & he thought they were here for the neighbors and I was like “oh I called them, they’re here to fix the roof.”
We find it much easier not to be stepping on each other’s toes and just stay in our lanes.
Anonymous
If I didn’t ‘score keep’ I would be taken advantage of by my ADHD spouse. We need firm metrics to keep equality.
Vicky Austin
Can you say more? I’m the (possible) ADHD spouse, but I also always feel like I’m doing everything.
Anonymous
As an AFAB, you’re socialized different and your ADHD likely presents differently so this probably doesn’t apply to you however…. a key characteristic of ADHD is inappropriate dopamine seeking behavior which manifests in avoiding things that don’t give dopamine (like chores) in favor of things that do (endless phone scrolling). The dopamine seeking results in a lot of selfish and self centered behavior, not with mal intent, but there is no consideration for the other person, it’s always what does the ADHDer want to make them feel good in the moment. Another key issue is with delayed gratification, so anything that requires patience and time is difficult for ADHDers because they want the happy brain chemicals *right now*. There is also the issue of linear thinking and general efficiency, which means my partner takes at least twice as long as it should to do any household task, it physically pains me to watch him cook, he some how turns instant pad Thai into a 30 minute ordeal. My partner has recently found a good combo of meds so all this is better but it’s still not perfect. I also have a lot of residual trauma from doing everything for years (and the verbal abuse of Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria episodes). The subreddit ADHD_partners is great but do not go in there and defend ADHDers, it’s a safe space for those of us who have been impacted by it.
anon
Boy, you have described this perfectly. This is my teen son who has ADHD. It is so hard, and I worry about what he’ll be like as an adult.
Anonymous
Also interested in the response. I’m the ADHD spouse in my marriage and my need for firm metrics sometimes irritates DH. I need lists and schedules to stay on track. The structure calms my ADHD brain. DH doesn’t always get that I just remember stuff. Last night alone I was trying to do my own laundry and ended up cleaning our bathroom even though the cleaners were coming today because it was irritatingly dirty and I couldn’t pull back the hyperfocus on the dirty bathroom. My own laundry isn’t on the household list because it’s a personal not family task but I probably need a separate personal chores list and timers for personal care items and my laundry.
Anon
Your examples are definitely scorekeeping. And I agree with the above point that a business trip is not a vacation, and kids are just part of your life, so trading off chores tit-for-tat is not a good approach. I’m of the mindset that if both spouses try their best, things will even out in the end.
As an example from my own life, I have 3 kids, am pregnant, had Covid, and my husband isolated from me and then left on a (very important, only trip all year) 7-day business trip. When he returned, he had caught Covid and so he rested and mostly isolated from us for another few days (he had been in Europe, I worried it could be a different strain, kids had stayed healthy). Did I then turn around and say “well now you have to do all the chores and take care of the kids for two weeks”? No! We both were stretched those weeks, and during my pregnancy he has picked up a lot of my slack.
It’s a hard pill to swallow sometimes, but you cannot get caught up in little details and let them turn to resentment. If you *generally* work well as a team, then focus on the good qualities, give the benefit of the doubt, and have an honest conversation about what down time you each need. Often it’s more important to focus on each spouse getting sufficient rest than to worry about the chores being “equal”. Everyone has a different amount of spoons.
Anon
I don’t score keep on household management. When we did, pre-kids, it was a great baseline for resentment. Resentment can creep into any relationship easily enough, so this is one place we can actively prevent that from happening. This took a while for me to get as a lot of my friends have a dynamic with their husbands where they are the nagging partner – it works for them but just would not work for us/our personalities.
DH is BigLaw, and will likely make partner soon. I work a busy 40-50 hour/week job in a leadership role. I don’t get paid what he does to be on call for client needs (his salary is about 4x mine), so I take on a lot of primary parent responsibilities, do our cooking/meal prep, manage our finances/taxes, etc. We also outsource and automate a lot – groceries get delivered, cleaning service, subscribe-and-save, family help/babysitters, and a housekeeper that does things like our laundry, watering plants, etc. Our kids are 3 and 6 and literally in school/childcare from 7:30-5:30 PM for now – I know as they get older this will change with activities, but they will also (hopefully) be slightly more independent. DH takes care of a lot of home maintenance/yard/dog stuff. It’s not 50/50, but I feel like everyone is putting forth 100% so I’m fine. He does travel often for work and while he gets some downtime here and there (e.g. he was in the Pacific NW to see clients over a weekend, and went for a hike on a Sunday AM) it doesn’t ever seem rejuvenating where I would consider it a “break” because the work just never stops, just ebbs and flows.
Note: We do switch off weeks for packing older kid’s lunch (something our housekeeper does the days she comes!) – I feel like he often forgets who is “on”, but is quick to pick up the task when it’s his turn. But guess what? If he has a client dinner and won’t be home until 10 PM, or I see he’s ensconced in his home office working into the late evening, I’ll take 7 minutes and pack the lunch for him when it’s his turn.
Milan
We don’t keep score unless we explicitly agreed to keep score – for instance, at one point when our kids were young we were feeling burnt out and mutually decided that each of us would get one night “off” from dinner, bedtime, and evening cleanup each week, and we were meticulous about making sure each person got their night. Now our kids are older and our schedules have more flex, so one person might miss dinner and bedtime a few times one week and none the next, and no one is keeping exact track.
We need a reset from time to time – he or I will approach the other and say, “I have been feeling really overburdened with X, what can we do?” And then we’ll try a different division of labor where we keep close track for awhile until the new norms have been established. But for the most part, we both think that the other person does “more”, and look for ways to help each other, so I’m not sure how I would handle it if my spouse didn’t do that.
Anon
Not a marriage expert, just what I’ve seen from my own deeply dysfunctional marriage (literally the worst thing to happen to me in my life, and I include an alcoholic and abusive family in that):
Be very, very wary of taking advice meant for “good but could be great” couples and putting it into dysfunctional marriages.
Your first step is to address the root cause of the dysfunction. If your spouse doesn’t want to make your day easier, no amount of hacks or systems will change that: the dysfunction needs to be fixed first. Maybe your spouse doesn’t even think it’s a problem that he doesn’t want to make your life easier. In that circumstance, it won’t matter how many techniques you employ; you will just frustrate yourself and open up novel avenues of fighting. Your options are limited: he learns better, you adapt to life with someone who uses you, or you divorce. The techniques and hacks come after he chooses to change his attitude.
Don’t ask me how I know this.
Senior Attorney
This is so true. Anon, you deserve better than this.
Anon
Yeah glib advice like “don’t scorekeep” in a marriage where the wife is already doing 90% of everything is like being manssplained to about how to avoid seasickness while you’re trying to stop the ship from sinking.
Anonymous
the book Fair Play encourages people to have ownership of all three parts of a task – i forget what she calls them, but she acknowledges that planning groceries, keeping track of inventory, and purchasing/putting away groceries are separate tasks. there’s a whole deck you can go through to try to make stacks and figure out what’s equal.
Vicky Austin
Conception, planning and execution are the 3 parts.
Idea
And should own the consequences if the chore or task isn’t done. Dad owns dishes and kid needs a fork? Go ask Daddy why there’s a sink full of dirty dishes
anon
We do not scorekeep at all. I cook dinner. My husband generally cleans up, but sometimes he needs to go straight to his office and finish turning a doc (ah, the glamorous life of a biglaw partner). If I am not myself exhausted, I’ll clean up that night. That being said, we do not have (and do not aim to have) an equal division of household labor – my husband is one of the highest-paid partners in his firm, and makes 10x my salary. Given that, I take on most of the household burden so he can prioritize work. There are a few tasks that he owns, and most of the traditional man stuff (like cleaning the gutters) he either does or deals with outsourcing. If he takes on some of my load (eg because I’m traveling for work – in that case he handles or outsources everything at home, without complaint) or I take on some of his, we don’t try to “make up” for that with extra work later.
Anonymous
The notion that score keeping is a dirty word almost always works to the woman’s disadvantage. I think most couples score keep in an informal way; you generally have a sense of whether the division of labor is equitable. An effort to score keep more formally is an attempt to establish clearly defined parameters to correct a perceived imbalance.
Anecdotally the only times I’ve had a score keeping issue is when the relationship wasn’t great. With DH, if I’m slacking he’ll just tell me, hey your shoes are really piling up around the door, and I’ll move them. In a past relationship, we disagreed about whether he was pulling his weight so yeah there was more score keeping. And then arguments about how to score keep. I remember one particularly divisive one: his rule was the cook doesn’t clean. Sounds fair right? Except that when he cooked, he used every pan and surface in the kitchen including the floor and ceiling and underneath the cutting boards and oven and fridge. You know very well if something fell under the oven. Pick it up. And if you don’t notice then pay more attention. I am not deep cleaning the kitchen including moving appliances every time you cook. By contrast I clean as I go and I’m not interested in unlearning good habits just to get back at him for being unreasonably messy. And if I tried to basically track my time like I was billing it, then he disagreed that what I was doing was necessary or reasonable, look how little time it takes him to clean! Needless to say the scorekeeping was not the only issue in the relationship.
Vicky Austin
This is a great comment, and reminded me that years ago someone posted here about a super messy boyfriend they had who somehow got raw chicken juice on the ceiling while cooking and expected the poster to clean it up. (Maybe that was you?!)
Anon
This particular issue can be tricky. I have a friend who complains that her husband is like yours – doesn’t clean as he goes. She’ll say this with resentment and say “I ALWAYS clean as I go so it’s not fair,” but when you think about it, no one is asking her to do that and her husband will still fully clean the kitchen no matter how many pots she dirtied. Couples can do whatever they want (maybe some will do better with “the cook always cleans” as a general rule), but I don’t think it’s a good dynamic to volunteer for extra work and then scorekeep about it.
Anon
My husband cleans as he goes and I do not. It interrupts my cooking flow and feels too hectic to be doing two things at once. But he usually cooks, and he always cleans. This is because I put kids to bed instead. He would much rather zone out with a podcast and dishes, and I would much rather wrangle and read to and chat with kids. So sometimes the division of labor doesn’t necessarily fall along lines that make sense (eg, two kitchen chores, each does one) but rather it plays to each person’s strengths and capacity.
Anon
I agree – when I’m cooking, I need to focus on the cooking and not on the cleaning. I don’t think that makes me a lazy or bad person. I’m doing my best not to mess up the meal and to coordinate times for the main dish and sides.
Anonymous
I’m not suggesting it’s lazy to not cook and clean at the same time. We all have our styles. But if your partner does everything possible to limit cleaning and you know you make a toddler-like mess then that has to even out somewhere right? For example: I use only dishwasher safe pans, utensils, etc., line every baking sheet to avoid baked on crud, if there is baked on crud I soak it in warm soapy water right away, if something spills in an unlikely place I clean it up, i wash my hands after touching raw meat, if I use something I put it in the sink or dishwasher or somewhere that makes it clear it’s been used, if I can use a pan more than once I do, and so on. What I don’t do is insist that my partner who refuses to buy or use non-dishwasher safe stuff has to clean up after me when I use 5 cast iron pans for what could’ve been a one pot dish because I insist on cooking each vegetable in a stir fry in a separate pan, I inexplicably cut raw chicken on the fancy wooden cutting board, touch every surface in the kitchen including inside the fridge with my raw chicken hands, use all wooden cooking utensils including tongs to flip the chicken, drop chunks of chicken under the oven and not pick them up or mention it, splatter tomato sauce on the ceiling, taste the sauce with a spoon and then put the spoon back in the drawer without washing it and then get mad my partner didn’t psychically intuit that spoon had been used. Like I’m not saying you’re a bad person if you cook like the second example, but you’re a bad partner if you cook like that and expect your partner to clean up after you.
Anon
Cleaning as you go is a good habit. Rather than sit around as the veggies roast or the pasta water boils, I clean. That half hour I spend cooking is a half hour that I’m on the clock for my family, so to speak.
Idea
Cook a side dish and dirty a few other things to wash later
Anonymous
“No one asked you to do that” is a slippery slope. I saw something that needed to get done and wasn’t getting done so I did it. Because that’s how everyone over the age of about 3 should approach household tasks. I don’t care if it’s your doll or your sister’s, you see a toy on the floor you pick it up on your way to getting your jammies on. I don’t care that the trash is usually his job, if I see it’s overflowing I’m taking it out rather than nag him. And we should all know that our fellow household members will do that when we forget to put away our water bottle or whatever. It should all even out. And if it doesn’t even out, that’s the fault of the person who’s not doing their fair share, not the person/people who are just trying to make the household run smoothly.
Anon
Yes, I’ve definitely had conversations with my husband that resulted in him saying, accurately, “I don’t keep score like you do” and me responding, “That’s because you’re not doing as much as I am”. I agree with the general tenor of the comments here: it’s easier to take on more work without resenting it if you feel like your partner is doing their fair share.
And adding to Anonymous at 11:16’s comment above, I also feel like I automatically think about how what I’m doing affects other people and take that into consideration (aside from the dishes above, another example – I won’t call my in-laws for baby-sitting duty if they’ve just watched our kid the day before) whereas my husband rarely seems to think about that kind of thing and I guess assumes people will just tell him if they’re unhappy. I don’t know if that’s just a male/female socialization dynamic or personal to each of us but it does create a lot of frustration too. It’s a little like the “guess/ask” culture differences.
Anon
+1 on the gendered aspects of domestic division of labor! I’m really enjoying how this thread is surfacing the specifics of what this looks like in good (balanced/fair) relationships, and how in relationships where there’s an imbalance it tends to be in favor of the woman doing most of the work…. Is scorekeeping the only or best way to even things out? It may not be, but engaging in scorekeeping can possibly provide the partner who’s doing most of the work (and the cognitive labor) to see the dynamic more clearly and decide how they want to address it. So maybe the misery doesn’t come from scorekeeping itself, but rather from the unpleasant information it’s revealing….
Anon
“The notion that score keeping is a dirty word almost always works to the woman’s disadvantage.”
Almost anyone who argues against keeping score wants to keep the playing field tilted in their favour.
Anon
100% this
The only person who ever lectured me about score keeping was an old male boss of mine, sure enough his wife left him not too long after that.
SMC - San Diego
I have no advice but posts like this make me so glad I was a single parent! Doing everything myself sounds way less exhausting than trying to remember and enforcing whose “turn” it is.
Anon
Basically every thread here about marriage makes me glad to be single.
Anon
Eh, I think this is mostly a kids and/or bad spouse issue. I’ve been married 15 years, but don’t have kids, so we mostly just take care of our own stuff and the pets and house stuff seems to sort itself out its own without much formal discussion and definitely no score keeping. Who does what can change from day to day and year to year, but has always felt pretty fair, though it obviously helps to marry someone who isn’t a selfish jerk.
I’m lucky to have seen the same pattern in my parents’ marriage, which has also changed over time, from years when my mom was at home and did most of the house work, to when she went back to work, to when she’s now dealing with health issues and my dad does most of the cooking and cleaning. I’ve never picked up on any score keeping there, just team work, and try to do the same thing.
Anon
Well the people with not much to complain about aren’t going to be posting about their marriages frequently.
Anonymous
Right? I am contemplating cohabitation for the first time in my life and all this makes it sound awful and like any cost savings need to just be straight channeled into household help to preserve the relationship. I do think my BF and I can navigate this based and n history, but I can see how this just goes all wrong and causes divorce.
Anon
My younger sister (married 20 years; 3 kids) is loudly of the opinion that this kind of score keeping is nuts She takes care of the house and the kids, except for after-school events/sports practices (all three of their kids are sporty), which her husband mostly does because his job is more flexible. She does all the laundry, shopping, cooking, and cleaning (except for what she makes her kids do (they are 11 to 16) and smelly athletic gear (she insists her husband wash that himself). He take care of the house and cars – which is a bigger job than it might sound because they live in an place where people have enormous lots and there is a lot of garden, lawn and pool care. He also takes care of my Dad’s equally large property since Dad is no longer able to keep it up. He does all of their finances because left to herself she would spend every penny they make (per her).
Objectively she does more than he does. But his job pays more and while it is flexible, he works more hours. And – as she always points out when it comes up (and it comes up a lot because our younger sister will not let it go): (1) the time she would save not doing it herself would be eater up by coordinating with him; (2) she does not want to mow in 80+ degree/humidity weather; (3) he is the first person to drop everything when Dad needs something; and (4) it is her marriage d–m it. Leave it alone.
Anon
I feel like your sister. And in a broader sense, scorekeeping is reducing a life to tasks and checkboxes. Yes, stuff has to get done, but that is part and parcel of having a family and living in a house. I do most of the traditional “chores” but I view it as serving my family, and part of the main event that is life, instead of drudgery that is distracting me from living. (And yes my husband and children also serve the family in myriad ways.)
Anonymous
But you can feel scorekeeping is nuts when you’re partner is doing that much. I’m not even clear from those examples how she is doing the majority.
It does point out through how widely division of these things varies in marriages.
Anon @ 12:58
Part of my sister’s point is that she did much more when the kids were younger. Shopping, cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. for three children under six was a lot. And the bulk of little kid care fell to her (he played with them but making sure teeth and hair were brushed was on her). But the balance has definitely shifted more in her favor as the kids got older and my Dad needed more help. I would say she still does more; her kids take a lot of wrangling. And the balance will shift even more as their kids start to leave home. As she is fond of telling our other sister, marriage is a marathon and not a sprint and she is not looking at day to day. She is looking at a lifetime.
But then her husband is a generally good guy. They have adopted very traditional gender roles in their marriage, but he definitely views certain things as his responsibility as a good husband and father and he is diligent in doing those things. Her model probably would not work nearly as well if he was lazy.
anon
It doesn’t have to be awful. But that is dependent on having a partner who actually behaves like a partner.
Anon
I was a single parent with one kid, coupled for the other. One was not easier than the other, just different. As a single parent, I knew that ultimately I was going to be the one to get the work done and to figure it out.
Miz Swizz
I am really bad about scorekeeping. I was taught to anticipate everyone’s needs and I see that happening with my husband and son and it not being reciprocal. I also am TERRIBLE about asking for help or a break because I feel like I need to have earned it or be able to point to why I need a break. I’m in therapy, I’m working on it.
Bottom line, my husband and I have been together forever and the following are true: I don’t like to ask for help, he’s not good at noticing when I need it, he also doesn’t like asking for help. So we both try our best. We try to say yes when the other needs help or a break and we order takeout or eat leftovers if we’re tired/don’t feel like cooking.
Scorekeeping comes in when I’m already feeling resentful or unappreciated (or hormonal). It’s okay to ask for help, a break, whatever you need. I think any good spouse wouldn’t make you justify your feelings and would work with you to take care of the issue.
anonshmanon
this is a total tangent, but I don’t understand why leftovers are treated as a lesser category of food so often. It’s food that we cooked. If I pull it out of the fridge tomorrow, it’s still food that we cooked. We already put all that effort into cooking previously. Eating leftovers is eating food, it’s not cheating or getting away with some lower standard. I wonder in what cultural or historical context this became the expectation. Every single meal doesn’t have to be freshly prepared, or be a hot meal, or be made from scratch, that is a ridiculous bar to set.
Miz Swizz
I love leftovers and early in the week, they are awesome! We have a variety of foods to choose from and there’s plenty to go around. As the week wears on, we eat them for lunch or repurpose them so Thursday night leftovers are whatever hasn’t been eaten and can be a bit of a weird mix and match.
Anon
Just tastes off to me. I don’t mind if it’s not been in the fridge very long, but eventually it just doesn’t taste the same as when it was fresh?
Anon
This brings back so many memories of my long-term boyfriend who I lived with for 2 and a half years. He always complained that I was scorekeeping in the relationship. For example, he would say he didn’t want to make dinner, I would say that I had done it the past four nights and ask that he please do it that night, and then he would go off on a rant about how I was always scorekeeping.
In an ideal relationship, you don’t scorekeeping and each person gives 110% to the relationship/family unit. But when someone is not pulling their weight, I don’t think you can get away from scorekeeping unless you just give up and accept you will have to do everything
Anan
If I work a lot of evenings in a row, I will offer to take the kids on the weekend and give my husband some kid free time. But also, if he is exhausted from putting the kids to bed for the fifth nigh in a row, he will often ask, “Can you do the dishes when you get home? I’m really beat.” And I will.
I think score keeping is not the actions, but the attitude. It is good to keep in mind thr labor divide, but I think you can do it without resentment or toxicity. When it gets toxic and mean- I call that scorekeeping.
Anon
This hit a nerve, as I’ve been struggling with the concept of scorekeeping as well. Over the years, our careers and household duties have ebbed and flowed, and now we’re both in big, stressful jobs with 2 elementary aged kids, and I’m starting to get resentful. I don’t scorekeep, but overall it is feeling unbalanced. We have flip flopped on who makes more $ multiple times throughout our marriage and we always treat finances as fully shared and have no tension related to $. However, I am currently making 3x more than DH and in a less flexible role (more in person, longer commute), and our division of labor has stayed pretty static. We’re probably at around 50-50 and he does a lot, but his work travel has picked up significantly and when he’s gone I do 100% obviously. He now has to travel about 1 full week a month, leaving me to shoulder everything on top of my inflexible job. When he gets back, there’s no way for him to “make up” for all the slack that I picked up while he was gone, so I get a “thank you” and we pretty much revert to 50-50 again. I end up feeling burnt out and imbalanced, but I’m not sure how to address this without some sort of scorekeeping.
The ironic thing is that he sometimes tries to scorekeep with me, and I just about lose my mind when he does. Example: For some reason he feels like if we’re both home and he’s washing the dishes after dinner, I should be helping him clean up the kitchen at the same time and that it’s rude if I relax and don’t pitch in. This is usually after I’ve done 5,000,000 other chores all day that he has not pitched in on. So, laundry is my chore and I may have thrown in a load, folded and put away another load, and hang dried another load for the family with no expectation of help, but then he’ll get upset the same evening if he’s washing the dishes (his chore that night, but we do switch off nights so it’s sort of a shared chore) and I’m not side by side drying them. Then when I point out the 5,000,000 other things that I did that day for the family that he didn’t help with, he claims I’m scorekeeping, even though I only bring it up in response to him being upset that I’m not helping with the dishes.
It’s very frustrating. The responses here have been really enlightening. I think the answer is that we need to re-visit the division of labor to make sure we both still feel that it’s fair, and if we both feel it is fair, that will eliminate the need for scorekeeping.
Anecdata
in addition to “fair”; is it sustainable for you both — you as a couple have less bandwidth total now that he is traveling every month, so it could be a question of reevaluating what you all outsource, and what you prioritize.
Anons
Scorekeeping is what happens when there isn’t trust, usually for good reason.
Take this out of the marriage context for a minute and imagine we’re talking about a friend group where you all go out for drinks or snacks regularly. When everybody takes turns buying for the group, or paying their share of the bill, nobody feels the need to whip out their calculator to make sure that so-and-so paid the extra $1.50 for the premium vodka in their drink. Everyone knows it’ll all come out even over time. And if one person is a little short one time because they got laid off or had a financial disaster, the group pitches and covers them, because they’d do the same for others. Right?
Now what if you have that one person in the group who never seems to pay a fair share of the tab? The one who “isn’t hungry” but someone needs up snacking on everybody else’s truffle fries, or wants to split the bill to the penny when it’s their turn (and only when it’s their turn) to pick up the tab? With THAT person you end up noticing and scorekeeping, because that person isn’t trustworthy and will take advantage if you didn’t keep score.
Anonymous
Navy dress and knee high tan leather boots. Ok for spring?
Anon
Yep.
Anon
Yes, lovely for spring, I think!
Anonymous
does anyone here suffer from misophonia? any tips or tricks to get past it? my son is triggered by his brother’s chewing (and ONLY his brother’s chewing)
anon
Noise canceling headphones?
Anon
Sounds like a sibling dynamic problem to me. Not sure it’s possible to fix this issue because son will be annoyed no matter what his brother does. I have three boys and can totally relate.
Anon
I agree. People with misophonia are triggered by anyone chewing.
Anonymous
Even then I often wonder if this is just a personality/control issue vs an actual hearing difference
Anon
I agree!
Anon
This isn’t true at all.
Anon
https://allergictosound.com/articles/why-parents-partners-siblings-mum-dad-biggest-misophonia-triggers/
Anon
Tell the brother to stop chewing so loudly! I say as somebody with the same issue who gets enraged by my spouse’s mouth noises.
Anon
Don’t do this. Everyone chews differently, but “chewing loudly” is not a real thing except in the minds of people with misophonia.
Anon
My daughter has it and she has to eat dinner with her boyfriend while watching TV.
Anonymous
Hahahahahahw how convenient for her. Can’t believe you fell for that one.
Anecdata
For me, not having to sit directly across from the sibling helped. I also found that I outgrew it over time – the worst sensitivity was when I was ~10-14, so hopefully that happens for you all too!
Anon
favorite dairy free sides to go with burgers, hot dogs and grilled chicken that are relatively easy to eat with a plate on your lap
Anonymous
Corn on the cob
Anon
I like to go with the classics – coleslaw with a vinegar-based dressing (mayo hater!) and chips.
Anonymous
Asian inspired slaws (or any slaw with vinegar dressing instead of mayo)? German potato salad? Typically I go super old school – german potato salad, cold italian pasta salad (in my house this is rotini with homemade italian dressing and chopped blanched veggies), crudite/veggie slices for the burgers, fruit salad for dessert plus brownies/cookies/popsicles.
anon
these are all great ideas but also, most mayo does not contain dairy (classic mayonnaise is eggs, oil, and vinegar)! This was wonderful news to me when a family member had to go dairy-free.
Anon
And even if you also need to avoid eggs, vegan mayos are really quite good these days. Hellman’s tastes pretty close to the regular kind.
Vicky Austin
This whole thread is making me hungry and ready for summer.
Anon
German potato salad, pasta salad, green salad, corn on the cob, sliced tomatoes.
Anon
Sweet potato fries
Fruit salad
Chips and guacamole
anon
French fries
potato chips
txanon
This (https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/110061/healthy-garden-salad/) edamame, black bean and tomato salad. you do want to give this at least 3 hours to chill and come together before serving but it will last in the fridge and just get better for 4-ish days with no issues.
OP
this sounds yummy. thank you!
Anan
Tater tots
Anecdata
there’s a smittenkitchen carrot-and-chickpea salad that is now my go-to cookout salad – the dressing is tahini-olive oil-lemon-garlic.
https://smittenkitchen.com/2014/05/carrot-salad-with-tahini-and-crisped-chickpeas/
Anon
Coleslaw
ALT
Fries, tater tots, some sort of grilled or roasted veggie
Anon
Beans or macaroni salad (dressing is mayonnaise + sugar so dairy free)
Anon
boring but raw veggies
Romantic Types
Interesting Atlantic article today: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2024/03/romantic-type-psychology/677889/
“In this sense, “type” is about not just the type of person you gravitate toward but also the type of relationship dynamic you fall into: how you communicate or show affection or trust. Matthew Johnson, a professor who studies couples at the University of Alberta, in Canada, has found that people’s relationships tend to have consistent qualities. In one study, he measured a handful of factors—including relationship satisfaction, sexual satisfaction and frequency, perceived instability, frequency of conflict, and how partners opened up to and expressed admiration for each other—in subjects’ past and current relationships, and found significant similarities. “We have kind of prototypical ways of relating to others,” Johnson told me—given that we tend to select similar mates and act in fairly stable ways, “you’re going to get this cocktail of a lot of consistency from one relationship to the next.”
So perhaps if someone’s type is “sensitive weirdos,” that doesn’t necessarily mean they like to date only these people. It might just mean that they’ve dated a sensitive weirdo in the past, and that’s how they learned how to be in a relationship. Now they feel comfortable to some degree with people who share those traits—and their own habits might attract new sensitive weirdos, or vice versa. Those romantic reverberations can be dangerous, as Brumbaugh pointed out.”
Thoughts??
Anon
Makes sense to me, doesn’t really seem very groundbreaking.
Anon
Tell me about an impulse buy or an almost-got-away-buy that you love using or wearing? Especially if it was a splurge or more than you’d normally spend.
I was out with my bff last weekend for lunch and wandering around our downtown with no intention of shopping. We went into a store where we found a hand embroidered jacket that I loved in the moment that was $250, there was only one with this particular design. I’ve been thinking about that jacket since then. I have off tomorrow and going back to the syore to see if it’s still there. I’m telling myself that if someone else didn’t buy it, then it’s ment to be mine.
Anon
I don’t thing I’ve ever regretted something I didn’t buy. On the other hand, I’m getting ready to move right now and coming across all these things I haven’t even touched in the five years since we moved into our current place. WTF was I thinking when I bought all this crap I don’t need? I’d so much rather have the money, the space, and not have to deal with figuring out what to do with it and feeling guilty about waste. All these things I now have to get rid of were exactly the kind of thing you’re talking about – impulse buys or splurges on something that fit more into an idealized version of my life than my real life, and it turns that I don’t actually have much use for them.
oil in houston
I still regret a dress I didn’t buy almost 30 years ago… so it happens
Anon
My commuter bike. It’s probably the most expensive impulse buy I’ve ever made (bought sight unseen on eBay, but I was familiar with the brand’s geometry and knew it would fit). It’s my daily driver now and made the transition when my car died a couple of years later no big deal. It’s fancy for a commuter, but is capable of anything I can throw at it – snow, ice, big loads. Best impulse buy ever.
Anonymous
A Patagonia cardigan. I think it was $100 in around 2007 and that was way more than I was spending on most individual clothing items at the time, save for some very good shoes or a coat. But my friend, who appreciates quality over quantity and sees quality more than I ever have, talked me into it. That sweater was my daily office sweater until last year and shows no wear to this day but I spilled something on it and sadly neglected it so it’s no longer suitable for office. I am still trying to find a comparable replacement.
Anonymous
There was a Fold London cape from a few seasons back that was SO gorgeous and I’m still kicking myself for not grabbing it. They haven’t done a cape since and likely won’t – I’ve asked!
In terms of ‘I saw it in the window and I just had to have it’ – my channel set diamond and emerald anniversary band. I loved it in the store but it was $$ so didn’t do much beyond try it on. My husband surprised me with it for our 10th anniversary after a particularly difficult year and it is one of my most treasured items.
Anon
Oh I’m wearing a ring like that right now. It’s from my local jeweler and I pointed at it in their window when husband and I were walking by one day. To my great surprise it was under the tree for me that Christmas, and I was definitely not hinting. I wear it every day now!
Anonymous
I still remember a purple fuzzy cropped sweater from when I was around 13… did not buy and have weirdly regretted it ever since. I would have looked awful in it, but the heart wants what it wants…
Anonymous
I feel like 13 is the perfect age for a purple fuzzy cropped sweater!
Anon
I feel for an ad for a Nespresso machine and omg I am obsessed. My whole family is hooked.
Runcible Spoon
I still think about a large painting of cherry blossoms that was to pricey for me — 30 years ago!
Anon
Hi! Long-time lurker here. My husband is starting to fight a parentage/custody battle with an ex. I knew about the child when we got married and am supportive of his fight. We’re located in and received parentage summons in WA and she filed in MA, although she most likely lives in DC. Do you have a rec for a great lawyer from MA who can help us? We need someone really sharp as the ex is very good at working the system, highly antagonistic and difficult. Thank you.
Anon
What part of Massachusetts? It’s a geographically small state, but I’m not going to recommend a Cape Cod attorney for a North Shore case or vice versa.
Anon
Original Anon. I’m assuming the ex is in Boston. Her exact location is unknown. They haven’t communicated recently.
Anonymous
Patrice Morse at Casner & Edwards. She specializes in high conflict custody battles and is GREAT.
Original Anon
Thank you! We will reach out.
Anonymous
What is the goal of his fight? To obtain custody and parenting time or to minimize his financial obligations to his child? Recommendations will differ depending on the goal.
Anon
Original Anon. Goal would be to minimize financial obligations while obtaining limited custody. Ex hasn’t allowed any interaction with the child for the last 3 years. Thank you.
Anonymous
He hasn’t paid support or seen his kid in 3 years??? That poor kid!
Anon
Carlos Maycotte at Fitch is great. His personal manner is not bulldog _with his own clients_ but he will fight for you.
https://www.fitchlp.com/attorney/carlos-a-maycotte/
Anonymous
Can I just say this is his fight and not yours. “Not your circus, not your monkeys” as others have said. I can tell you from experience that it will not help anything for you to be involved in this matter.
Anon
Sorry but it’s her husband so it is her issue too. That’s how it works.
Hildegarde
I need some advice on office politics. I’m an in-house counsel in a particular specialty area. There is another lawyer in our department, who is one level senior to me but not my boss, who I feel like tries to horn in on projects in my specialty area. For example, two weeks ago I was out for a few days, and my boss (not a lawyer) copied this guy and me both on an email, so he could provide a document I would normally provide while I was out. It makes sense that this other lawyer would be the one to do this in my absence. But now he’s on the email chain for this project, participating in calls, and wants to have a call with just me to “make sure we are aligned” before the next group call. He’s done this thing where he was the two of us to “get aligned” in private, which I feel like means I brief him on the project and my legal opinions so he can speak with more authority on the next group call. To be clear, I have never heard him claim credit for an idea I had or anything directly damaging like that. But I think it undermines me to have an (older, male) attorney in calls and meetings that are my purview, opining on matters that are within my job description. Part of the complexity here is that I’m somewhat new to this role, so I can’t just dominate him with my superior contributions: I’m still learning myself. I am sure he has not previously worked on these kinds of projects, so it’s not like this behavior is of long standing. I’d appreciate any general advice, and particularly a way to avoid these “get aligned” meetings. He just sent another invite, I said I preferred to meet with the full team, and he reiterated that he wants to talk to me first.
oil in houston
ask your boss if he intended for the 2 of you to be in those meethings, if not, get confirmation it’s your case, then tell colleague ‘thanks for covering for me, but now that I’m back, I’ll handle all calls and comms’ then ask project manager to remove him from dist list to avoid confusions in accountabilities …
Cat
“Hey Peer, I know you got looped in on this when Client asked for that document while I was out, but I don’t think both of us need to be in these meetings and I’m happy to take the reins back.”
I don’t blame him for doing short pre-calls with you if he SHOULD be involved, because it’s never a good look for legal to be disagreeing amongst themselves when ‘live’ with clients.
Anecdata
Since you mentioned that you are new and still learning, I’d ask your manager first about what role this senior attorney has in the projects. I’m a senior SME in my field, and my boss often adds me to projects a junior colleague is leading, to make sure it stays on track. Asking for a quick sync before the large group call is something I do so that I/don’t/ have to contradict or overrule the junior person in front of the rest of the team (bc I want them to be perceived as the authority, not have ppl looking to me)
Commiseration
If he does this regularly, consider reminding him this is *your* specialty area, you’re very familiar with these issues and have seen them in x and y cases before, so you’ve got this, he doesn’t need to worry about it. And you’re sure he has his own matters that need his attention, and no one wants to duplicate effort by the lawyers.
Anon
Also, kindly but firmly refuse to get dragged into another “get aligned” meeting. You’re busy at that time, you’re slammed this week, the client had something urgent come up, whatever.
Anon
As a client (in-house) I would not want two specialists who are close in vintage billing on my cases for internal meetings, reveiwing emails, participating in calls. Play this off as an efficiency matter and say that you’ll be handling things from here.
Also–jumping onto a deal or case like that is really aggressive and not normal. You’re not wrong for being annoyed by it! I spent a lot of time in biglaw and this is gunnerish a-hole, pad-your-billables-type behavior.
Anon
She’s also in-house. In her shoes, I’d loop on her boss and see the preferred way of handling these things.
Hildegarde
I didn’t get a chance to respond yesterday, but that you all for the helpful advice! I used some of this language in a conversation with the other guy, and I think it went reasonably well. We’ll see if the behavior stops.
How to enjoy travelling?
What do you do to feel like you are getting the most out of your vacation/travel?
The past few trips we’ve taken- and I do admit that we have three kids- have just not felt… special? Like I feel like we end up eating crappy food (even though I research places to eat), and not seeing all the “sights”, and the sights we do see are often really crowded, and if we go at a slower pace I feel like we are wasting our time to not see more things, and in the end we’re just exhausted when we get home. Our past few big family trips have been to Montreal, Amsterdam, and San Francisco. It didn’t ever feel like we got away and fully experienced anything different and we could have just stayed home. (I mean that’s objectively not true- we had some really great moments, but overall it was just exhausting) We don’t have the budget to travel more than once a year, and I want it to feel worthwhile. When I was in my twenties, there was a sense of wonder around travelling that I’m not feeling anymore. Part of it, I’m sure is travelling with kids, but even still…I feel like I’m not taking advantage of travel to have adventures.
Thoughts or advice?
Anonymous
Maybe being in a city is the issue, especially if you live in one? I think some of my favorite recent travel experiences are being in nature and seeing animals – things that I would never have the chance to do at home in NYC. That is where wonder comes in. I do not focus on finding great restaurant meals, and for museums, I focus on things that are very different than what I can see at home. Part of this has to do with the lowest common denominator of interests between me, my husband, and my son, and I’m sure that is harder with 3 kids. We also like wilderness camping. But also, traveling IS also always tiring too.
anon88
I don’t feel like those are particularly good vacation destinations, especially with kids. What kinds of activities were you doing? Have you considered not going to cities? I admittedly don’t have kids, but I found Amsterdam kind of lackluster if you aren’t into partying or want to spend tons of time in museums. And maybe I’m biased because my mom’s family is from there, but I find Montreal pretty boring! It’s cool to spend a day or two in, but that’s about it. All three of those places conjure gray skies for me, which is pretty much the opposite of the vibe I want on a once a year vacation.
In the past where did you get that sense of wonder? For me, I’d say nature is where I’ve felt the most awe: Banff, practically anywhere in Switzerland, Iceland, national parks. And places where I feel like I’m soaked in an environment totally different from home. Places with a lot of “atmosphere”– Paris, Mallorca, Costa Rica.
And what kinds of activities does your family enjoy? It took me a really long time to accept that I don’t like museums and I’m not some sort of uncultured heathen because of it. At home I mostly read, write, talk to people and go rock climbing or hiking. So it makes sense that climbing in Spain or pretending I’m a local in a cafe are some of my most cherished vacation memories.
Anon
Two things: active vacations (not just lying on a beach for a week) and having an itinerary. I used to think itineraries were too rigid and that it was nice to plan on “just walking around!” I’ve since learned that that is the fast track to feeling like I didn’t get much out of the vacation – there have been a lot of trips where we “just walked around” in some boring neighborhood and ended up eating mediocre food there. Now if we want some time to “just walk around,” I do more research first. Is there a great historical neighborhood to focus our walking in? A great viewpoint we should aim for? A great taco spot we should end up at? Otherwise, the rest of the itinerary needs to have specific plans. A little loose, unscheduled time is OK, but it can’t be the whole day or week.
For active vacations, whitewater rafting trips have been the biggest bang for the buck for us. For about $1,500 per person last summer (plus a little extra for gas and road food getting there), we were engaged and having the time of our lives for 12 hours a day, plus the joy of sleeping under the stars, plus the joy of the guides doing all the gourmet cooking and cleaning. I never felt like a moment was wasted or that I didn’t get anything out of it. There was nature, risk, adventure, trying new things, delicious food, beautiful scenery, nice conversation, fun people. We learned a lot and I think back to the trip almost daily.
It took me a long time to learn these things about myself, though. I grew up vacationing with extended family who LOVED to have “couch days” instead of getting out and doing things on vacation. I thought that was the way people relaxed. Now I know I don’t have to do it that way and that different people recharge in different ways.
FormerlyPhilly
If you used a specific whitewater rafting outfitter, would love to know the name of the company! This sounds awesome!
Anon
We used Momentum for the Rogue River and Middle Fork River Expeditions for the Middle Fork of the Salmon River (which is justifiably famous and amazing – do it!!!). I think you can’t really go wrong with any outfitter as long as there are decent reviews, though. The days will all be pretty similar. I did make an effort to choose an outfitter that employed a lot of women.
Anonymous
I refuse to go on trips without a general itinerary or it turns into ‘what do you want to do?’ ‘I don’t know, what do you want to do?’. Nothing crazy – 1 big activity, 1 small activity and a plan for food if we’ll be out and about at meal times.
On a recent trip we gave our kids a guidebook and told them they were responsible for one day’s itinerary – they had to pick an AM activity, a lunch spot, and a PM activity. They did great and felt very proud of themselves for researching places/picking a restaurant and it made them much more aware of the logistics of travel (pre-buying museum tickets, figuring out how to get from point a to point b, etc.)
Anon
Exactly – “what do you want to do?” “idk, let’s just hang out?” is the fast track to a bad vacation.
Anon
It depends on the destination, I think. Some of my all-time favorite trips (both alone with DH and with our kids) have had essentially zero itinerary. But those were beach destinations where the resort, beach and/or house reef were a huge draw. I wouldn’t go to Amsterdam without an itinerary.
Anon
I only have one kid, so that definitely makes it easier and we didn’t really travel when she was 2 and 3 (the hardest ages) due to Covid.
But my #1 tip with young kids is not to travel to big cities where you have to see “sights.” Our worst trip was Paris with a toddler, and the adults had been there before and weren’t even trying to hit every museum. With kids under the age of 6 or so, you want to go somewhere where you’re going to feel good if you do one touristy activity per day, or less. The European countryside is perfect for this, because the attractions are the food, wine, scenery and culture, and you don’t have to feel guilty about not making it to sights. We absolutely loved Tuscany as a family, also really enjoyed Mallorca and the Algarve Coast of Portugal. Caribbean beach resorts are also good if the top goal is relaxing.
Now that our daughter is 6, we’re starting to include bigger cities in our travels ,but we still don’t have trips that are just a city – for example we are going to Turkey and will spend some time in Istanbul but then will go to Cappadocia and a beach resort on the coast. I expect the beach resort to be the highlight for her and we put it last intentionally so she has it to look forward to while we do things that aren’t as fun for her. We bribe with gelato or a playground visit for doing something unfun like going to a museum.
But ultimately if it doesn’t feel worthwhile to you, it’s ok not to travel or not travel until your kids are older.
Gail the Goldfish
In my mind, there are two different types of vacations: 1) chill and relax or 2) sightsee. I don’t think they combine well and it’s usually best to pick one or the other. It sounds like your recent trips have been sightseeing trips. You may just be in a life stage where chill and relax is needed more than sightsee. I think there are reasons so many people with kids (especially younger kids) default to “let’s just rent a beach house for a week,” and that’s ok.
anon
I think they can be combined if you pick the right destinations. For example, tropical places like Hawaii and Costa Rica have plenty of hiking, excursions, and sights to visit. Or you can just relax at the hot springs, the beach, and snorkel. An Alaska cruise can be relaxing while on the ship, but activity intensive once you’re in port. Pick a place where there’s plenty to do, but also one that will allow enjoyable down time (pool, beach, park, ice cream) rather than wasted down time.
Senior Attorney
I just got back from a nature-focused vacation and it absolutely blew my mind. Maybe think about national parks? Grand Canyon? Yosemite? Hawaii (I took my daughter there when she was 10 and she was just gobsmacked by the natural beauty)? And save the cities for when they’re older?
Anon
Agree with this, although younger kids will be quite limited in their ability to do long hikes. We specifically delayed national parks until elementary school because DH and I loved hiking and knew we would feel limited visiting a national park with a toddler or preschool (we never mastered the hiking carrier). But I know not everyone places the same importance on hiking.
If you do like to hike, Acadia is a good “starter” national park for little kids – there are lots of hikes with really nice views that an average 4 or 5 year old can do.
Anon
Lower your expectations, pick different activities, realize a vacation with small children will not be relaxing.
Anon
Actually, I don’t think I mean lower your expectations, rather you should change them. They don’t have to be lesser, just different.
Anonymous
I didn’t try to do anything more intense than renting a beach house for a week or going to Disney (and doing a veeeerrrry relaxed schedule) when my kiddos were under 10. They just couldn’t do a full day of museums/sightseeing. A favorite trip was Philly at 8/10 because we spent almost all of the time doing kid things – children’s museum, science museum, US Mint tour (this was SO fun), eating tour at the indoor market and then back to the hotel in time to swim at the indoor pool. My kids said the two highlights of the trip were ‘swimming after dinner’ and ‘the heart at the museum we got to climb on’. Bonus mention for the one night they got to order room service which blew their minds (food, in bed, in front of a TV!). My older one turned to me and said, ‘Mom! Do you order room service EVERY time you travel? That’s what I want to do when I grow up, stay in hotels for work and order room service!’
I’d either opt for driving vacations to very kid friendly cities or just lean into the ‘drop and flop’ vacations (love that term from a previous travel thread!).
anonshmanon
My main strategy is to trust my gut, which often means ignoring some must-see that’s on every list when it sounds unexciting to me. Most of the time when I’ve made time to visit a thing just because I felt that I shouldn’t miss it, I ended up being disappointed (and those must-sees are always crowded of course).
Anon
Yes, excellent point.
Anonymous
Yeah, as a few others have said, the thing that Montreal, Amsterdam and SF have in common is that they’re cities. I’d avoid cities for the next trip and see if you enjoy a nature area or beach more.
Anon
how old are your kids? i have two 5 year olds and we’ve had to completely change the types of trips we take as well as our expectations. At least at their age a trip with a list of sights to see would not be fun or special. this also might sound a bit snotty, but as i’m more well traveled the wonder isn’t there for me in the same way, (like the first time i ever went to europe i was 16 and in awe of the architecture that i took rolls and rolls of pictures of celings) but instead I prefer/derive pleasure from seeing my kids experience something for the first time. kids are still kids no matter where you go – it is just parenting in a different location – which can be challenging if your kids’ schedules are off, eating is off, sleeping is off, etc. if you want to be less exhausted when you get home then go to an all inclusive resort with a kids club ideally that is a short non stop flight away. otherwise growing up we did lots of combo trips – so like san juan islands + seattle, or a visit to Vail in the summer with white water rafting, hiking, biking, swimming, alpine slides, we did one trip to southern california with a combo of beach time + attractions. at this point our trips with our kids have all involved going to visit family, who fortunately live in places that are interesting to visit (with the exception of a recent trip to Disney).
Anonymous
How old are the kids? “See the sights” is different with kids, even if they are older!
Cat
We’re big fans of building slower-paced days into city destinations. Like it’s not just about ticking off everything you ‘should’ see, it’s also about enjoying your vacation and feeling refreshed. Like in London we skipped trying to time a day around a vantage point for changing of the guard because we personally did not GAF. YMMV depending on your family’s own preferences.
Also, those are three city trips. Why not try a more outdoorsy or beachy vacation where the point is not rushing around?
Anon
Yep, we build in some lazy days too. With young kids it sort of happens naturally since they’ll want to go to playgrounds and stuff like that. With older kids you have to be a bit more intentional about. My daughter and I are doing a spa day on an upcoming trip and I can’t wait.
The first time DH & I traveled w/o kids we went to Iceland and I scheduled stuff for every day and it was too much for both of us. We kept remarking that we missed the slower pace of travel that kids necessitate.
Anononon
If you’re city people (which Amsterdam, SF, and Montreal suggest you are), then vacations to non-city places won’t feel relaxing so I would personally ignore that advice. If you want to see cities, see cities, but I think the key is managing small bellies and small feet. How old are the kids? When my family was traveling with small kids we always did European cities and it was great. Food every hour and a half was a big help. So, breakfast at the hotel, then an activity (with a granola bar snack in the middle if it’s going to be a long activity), then lunch, then activity, then ice cream, then activity/naps as needed, then dinner, etc. Try not to do two big walking activities in one day; so for example in Paris you might do a trip to the Louvre in the morning and then a sight-seeing cruise down the Seine in the afternoon. I-Spy or scavenger hunts in museums are great for keeping younger kids engaged. Also take shifts — have a couple of afternoons where the parent who wants to do more sightseeing takes the kids who are up for it and the parent who wants to nap stays at the hotels with the nappers. You don’t have to to everything together all the time. You can also use time while some are napping to explore your neighborhood and find dinner options. The kids can feel very grown up reading menus in the windows, choosing, and then reporting to the rest of the gang where you will be going (plus you can usually poke your head in and make a reservation for same-day or next day if you’re looking at places that don’t need reservations weeks in advance). Also don’t underestimate some of the cheesy activities because those can be really cool for kids. Go to Tivoli Gardens, take the elevator to the top of the Eiffel Tower, climb up the dome at the Duomo in Florence, go to platform 9 3/4 in London. And get the kids psyched up before you go and then everything will feel more magical. Read Madeline books before going to Paris, Tomie DePaola books for Italy, etc. Unfortunately that magical feeling takes a lot of planning when kids are involved, but if you’ve got it all planned out before you go (with flexibility built in, of course) you’ll have a great time.
Anonymous
I’m kind of echoing other thoughts but I have three young kids and vacations just aren’t the same as they were when I was in my 20s. And that’s ok! I’m grateful we can pay for a lot of things we couldn’t when we were 25, and I enjoy showing my kids fun new places. But also, vacations with kids are kind of just doing life in a different place. I try to keep my expectations low and err on the side of my vacation being “boring” and building in some routines from home. We cook at our destination a lot (taking 3 kids to a restaurant isn’t that fun). And we do one activity per day. And we build in an optional naptime. And we know we can’t go for more than about 3 days. So our epic 6 day back country backpacking trip isn’t happening, but I did get to have a full conversation with my friend while my kids played in the hotel kiddie pool this weekend, and tbh the joy I experienced on both trips was similar.
Anonymous
travel with kids is a trip, not a vacation
i book myself massages when i come home :)
OP
Thanks for all these comments.
We aren’t really beach or resort people, but we do go camping a couple times a year and I do find that rejuvenating. Maybe we should lean into that.
I think the posters that say, “Trust your gut on what appeals and skip the ‘must see’ things” might be on to something too.
Any tips for finding those types of things to see? Like the quirky hidden gems? Or things that really give me a sense of a places’ uniqueness?
Anon
What did you enjoy before kids? Kids definitely change some aspects of a trip, but they don’t (for me anyway) change the fundamentals of what you really want to do. You may just need to pick and choose among activities so you don’t do too much.
Also if you don’t like beaches or resorts but want an “easy” trip, you might enjoy cruises. You can cruise to Europe and to more exotic nature areas like the Galapagos or Australia.
Cat
Part of this is learning from your own experience. On my first trip to a European city I thought I’d wake up raring to go, see two things before lunch, have lunch, two more things, then dinner. As it turned out that meant we were dining at tour group special times and irritated at the schedule. And it was too much “official historical culture that You Should See” and not enough “enjoying the modern city for its current vibes”.
Trip #2 we were smarter. Only half-adjusted to the time but meant we were dining more on European schedules (dinner at 9 rather than 7), had a goal of two ‘attractions’ max per day, and plenty of time to linger and cafe-sit in between Official Tourist Stuff. We’d alternate a museum morning with a light afternoon of wine tasting or a food tour.
As far as how to go from 4 things per day to 2, think about what you found most fun from your last trip and go from there. Like, art consistently leaves people whiny but science and hands on museums are fun? Pick one art stop for your next city but skip the others. It’s ok to pass on the Pompidou if modern art isn’t your thing.
Or to not go kiss Oscar Wilde’s grave (ew IMHO). As a source for ideas for Europe trips, Rick Steves has fantastic pre-designed ‘walks’ in different neighborhoods where you can pick and choose where to duck into along the way to either extend or shorten the duration.
Anon
I’m not a tour person in general but in European cities (especially Italy) we tend to do them, and you can find lots of options targeted towards kids. You can just pick whatever sounds appeal. Cooking classes have been a particular hit with my kids, and you normally get a delicious meal afterwards.
JD
I recommend thinking about the overall type of vacation you’re trying for, or assign days of the vacation to be a “type” of day. If you want to relax, then a beach, cabin, lake vacation. If you’re in a city, you have to accommodate your kids’ ages. If you want to take in the sights, maybe find the coolest playground that’s by an interesting part of the city or outdoor market. If you want to visit a fancy restaurant or show, you may need to pay for a babysitter or put your kids into some kind of experience/camp for a day. If it’s all about the kids, then go all in on tourist activities. Also, I would try off an afternoon with your partner, so you each get half of a free day to be a solo traveller.
Also if you’re looking for a sense of wonder, then I’d try to identify a couple of very special experiences for each trip. A special store for you or the kids to buy a particular momento. A special photo op you want to get. Planning your outfits (if your kids are into that, not necessarily matching. Let your kids pick a restaurant or special experience.
Then subtract 30% of what you planned …. cause kids.
anon88
Did anyone read this in NYMag today? “The Case for Marrying an Older Man A woman’s life is all work and little rest. An age gap relationship can help.”
https://www.thecut.com/article/age-gap-relationships-marriage-younger-women-older-man.html
It’s probably rage-bait, but I’ve taken the bait and it’s one of the most frustrating things I’ve read in a while. The writer is only 27 and is talking as if marrying a rich older guy is some kind of life hack and not setting yourself up in an power imbalance and making your whole life dependent on being in the good graces of a guy who was into dating twenty-year-olds when he was thirty.
Anon
Lord save us from the “wisdom” of 20-something trad wives. In their worlds, nothing bad will ever happen. No adultery, no midlife crisis; no disability, job loss, or early death for the man supporting her.
Behind that, this particular writer is vapid, boring, and unoriginal. Harvard or not, her mind is boring. I could vaguely understand a truly brilliant 20 year old at Harvard and a 30 year old MBA student: him, admiring her intellect and being old enough to not be intimidated by it, and her, longing for that in a man. This lady might have crushed the SATs, but her mind is dull.
Anon
Does it address the caregiving aspect at all? That seems like the biggest downside of marrying a much older man… when you’re 65 and all your friends are fit and retired and traveling and having non-stop fun, you’ll be at home taking care of a man in his 80s or 90s.
Anon
You could pull a Newt Gingrich or John Edwards and leave ’em when they get too sick.
Anon
Statistically men do that way more than women.
anon
the 70 year old men don’t tend to leave their 50 year old wives. Unless they are billionaires and want a 30 year old wife.
Anonymous
Or when you are 45 and your kids are looking at colleges and the 60 year old wants to retire and not pay for 4 years of college for 2 kids. Or when you are in your mid-forties, which for a lot of women is their se><u a l prime, and the 65 year old falls asleep at 8pm. and on and on. Bad idea miss 20something expert.
Anonymous
Oh the pick-me Trad wife, what a way to live. She’ll change her tune when she is left for the younger mistress.
anon
I don’t even have to read this to know that she’s naive and hasn’t seen what life can throw at you during adulthood. Yuck.
Anon
The author is getting dunked on in the comments and they are way better than the piece itself.
anon88
Yeah the comments are hilarious.
Cerulean
“So naturally I began to lug a heavy suitcase of books each Saturday to the Harvard Business School to work on my Nabokov paper”
This reads like satire. Good lord, this writer is insufferable.
Anon
Ooof, the writing. I couldn’t understand half of what she was saying.
Anon
This sentence sounds like Julia Allison! But she’s 40+ so I know she didn’t write this story.
Anon
Ha. I love her blithe assurance that when she has a child her husband will happily subordinate his professional life to support her. That is not the setup you’ve engineered, honey.
Anons
It’s absolutely a life hack…. for him. He gets a younger and less experienced woman who thinks she has life all figured out (so she won’t notice the red flags), and he can lean on her for support as he gets older and physically declines without having to reciprocate in the same way.