Coffee Break – Dylan Hobo

84 Comments

1. early threadjack but looking for someone to tell me that this is not as horrible as i am making it out to be right now:

   a deal i’m working on recently fell apart and we were supposed to submit a preliminary bill. i missed an email asking for all time to get finalized/put in before they sent out a bill yesterday afternoon. apparently none of my time was automatically finalized and didn’t make it into the bill. the responsible partner just came in here and said “you didn’t put your time in on time?” i said yes, my time was in, but for some reason did not get finalized. he responded “you just cost me $20k” then slammed my door and walked out. i’m feeling quite miserable. i went over to his office to apologize again after some time had passed, but he did not offer any words of consolation. i am still feeling quite horrible and have spent the remainder of my afternoon crying behind a shut door in my office. how horrible is this?

   1. I think the problem here is really not that you made a mistake, but that you didn’t own up to it. If you were honest and admitted you missed the email, that’s a mistake. Instead (correct me if I misunderstood), it seems like you lied and said you did put in your time. From a manager’s perspective, I’d be really, really pissed if I found out one of my employees lied to me.

      I certainly wouldn’t bother the partner about it again. If there’s a senior associate or mentor you can approach about it, do so. Perhaps there’s something you can do to fix the problem and get your time added to the bill. If not, you’ll have to face the music when you have your review; instead of trying to dodge blame there, straightforwardly admit that you messed up and explain what steps you’ve taken to make sure it never happens again.

      1. I agree with everything Eponine wrote here.

         Given that this is a “preliminary” bill (what is that?) I’m hoping you’ll be able to get your time onto the final version.

      2. I definitely did not read it as the OP lying. I think that, if that is the case, it is an obvious problem. A big problem. I don’t know anything about the OP’s timekeeping system, obviously, but it sounds like the time was input, but perhaps required an additional step to finalize, (and perhaps that should have and usually does happen automatically) and although the time was there, it was not “read” in submitting the bill.

         1. I surmised that her statement of “for some reason the time didn’t get finalized” was dishonest, because I assumed that the “some reason” was that she didn’t finalize it because she missed the email. If I’m wrong and someone else should have finalized it and that other person dropped the ball, then that’s totally different.

            At any rate, most likely it can still be corrected since the bill was only preliminary.

      3. I of course don’t know about the OP’s firm, but for my firm, entering my time and finalizing my time are two different things. I put in my own time daily when I am being good, but my assistant typically “finalizes” it for me midmonth and end of month, after the official instruction to “finalize” comes out from Accounting to all firm employees. I can also finalize it myself – it’s a few clicks but on a different screen than the time entry screen. One does not finalize one’s time prematurely i.e. before the finalizing instruction. Only time that has been “finalized” shows up on the bills.

         So, the OP could have entered her time in on time, but missed the “finalize now” email. The finalizing seems to also have come at a strange time (not midmonth or end of month) because the deal collapsed unexpectedly.

         It is bad that the OP didn’t finalize her time as the email told her to do (why didn’t your assistant help you??), but I imagine the partner was also already upset that the deal collapsed.

      4. Oh also? Don’t spend your afternoon crying. Try to fix the situation, and if you learn that it’s absolutely impossible to add your time to the bill, then work your butt off to make up for that $20K that the firm can’t bill. If you’re already being viewed (fairly or unfairly) as the girl who cost the firm $20K, you can’t afford to come in even a little bit below hours.

         I hate to be so harsh, but there’s no crying in baseball and there’s no crying in law firms. Be proactive; move on.

         By the way, this is by far not the worst mistake I’ve ever heard of. Remember the mail clerk who returned a court ruling to sender in a death penalty case, causing the indigent death row client to miss the deadline for his appeal? (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/us/22scotus.html) Now THAT’s a mistake. You and your career will get through this little drama just fine.

         1. Great reply.

      5. OP here. Sorry for the confusion–I didn’t lie to him that I put my time in. I certainly would not lie about it and would have owned up to the mistake if that were the case. My time was entered in, but it did not get finalized/released and therefore was inaccessible for the bill. Typically our time is automatically finalized on the 5th of each month. When the mistake was pointed out to me this morning, I checked the time again and it still hadn’t finalized, so there was apparently a change/glitch in the system for this month.

         I spoke to the senior associate who is reviewing/revising the bill. She told me that the partner also forgot to finalize some of his time so it also did not make it into the preliminary bill.

         Thanks for the support. I went out for a walk and came back and buried my head in the remaining pile of work to get done and feel much better after a few hours of not thinking about it.

         1. “She told me that the partner also forgot to finalize some of his time so it also did not make it into the preliminary bill.”

            Hahaha. Awesome. I’m sorry I misunderstood your original comment, and I’m glad that it seems to have worked out.

            1. Partner was taking his mistake out on someone lower in the company. Jerk.

         2. Don’t worry about the partner. We have no way of knowing what is going on in his life, and he was acting stupid by taking out things on you. He should know that these things happen and if there is to be another bill, your time will be on it. You are a good lawyer and can’t let this guy get you down. This happened to me about 3 years ago with the managing partner trying to make me the fall guy for his not putting in his own time. I told him that he should take better care before yelling at his associates, and he took it to heart. Going forward, he respects me a lot more and does not raise his voice to me any more. Just forget about it and this guy’s dumb behavior.

   2. S–t like this is why I am leaving the profession. Can’t handle another afternoon spent crying in my office over something like this. I love the Corporettes who love the law and don’t get rattled by stuff like this, but it’s just not for me.

      Chin up, anon. Lesson learned. Next time you will be sure to check with accounting to make sure your time is finalized after you’ve entered it.

      (For those wondering, my firm is also like some of those above where you enter your time but then it has to be “released” to accounting in order to be included on bills. If you’re in the habit of entering time daily but not releasing until the end of the month, this would be an easy step to accidentally miss.)

      1. @Another anon, I agree, BigLaw sucks. Poor child came to Corporette looking for support and probably is wailing louder now… @anon,
         CyberHugs (((( ))))

         1. I gotta tell you, as a non-lawyer, this totally makes me question why anyone would want to be one. Your world is so brutal … and whatever for?

            1. I think there are jerks in every profession. I’ve worked for some of them, but now I work for some great people (also lawyers). In my experience, it depends much more on the organization and its culture than on the profession.

            2. I think there’s an extra amount of jerks in law. :)

               Sending you hugs, sweetie. There’s no kind of job that should leave you crying in your office this afternoon. My advice would be to get thee home and in front of a glass of wine as soon as possible.

         2. This is incredibly patronizing. Poor child? Wailing louder? She’s an adult with a doctoral-level degree. No wonder people think women can’t cut it in a high-pressure workplace; even other women treat us like we’re children to be coddled.

            1. THIS. Well said.

         3. I’m Southern, so “poor child,” isn’t meant to be patronizing. I guess it be “poor soul” in other parts of the world. And me and my “high-powered” lawyer friends have all sobbed and wailed when we’re upset over something at work (in the presence of friends, of course!) . It’s a sisterhood, after all…. (I hope)

            1. THIS

   3. OK, I don’t know that I have any advice, but I think the partner is unfairly placing all of the blame on you. At my firm, the assistants finalize the time. Why did your assistant not do this? And why did no one in accounting notice that there was no time for you on the bill? Presumably your name was on the file. And didn’t the partner review the bill before it went out? S/he really should have noticed that none of your time was on there.

      Furthermore, the partner’s behaviour was totally unprofessional. Even if this was solely your fault, what the partner did is not the grown-up way to deal with it. He should have calmed down and then come to talk to you about it. Slamming doors at work is never appropriate.

      I agree that if there is a senior associate/mentor, you should talk to them about this. Definitely don’t try to talk to the partner again today. If you do decide to talk to the partner again, I would probably wait until Monday to give him/her a chance to cool down.

   4. It’s not as horrible as you’re making it out to be. Try to work behind the scenes to see what happens now – a secretary or admin may have dealt with this before and would know exactly how to fix it, or a senior associate may have once had the same issue and knows how to deal with it. I agree with Eponine that you should not bother the partner again with the caveat that if you do figure out how to fix it, I would send him an email telling him so and explaining how you did it.

      Realize that in all likelihood, he is not mad at you, he is mad that the deal fell apart and he is going to now take it out on you because you are an easy target. Partners do this all the time – they are frustrated at a case, a client, a deal, and they can’t take it out on the object of their frustration so they take it out on their associates, who are paid to put up with their crap.

      This guy is just being a jerk. All he has to do is call the client and say, “I apologize, the work of one associate was omitted from the bill, it’s going to be about $20k more, I will send you a corrected bill immediately.” And then the client will say, “OK” and life will go on. But instead of acting like a normal reasonable person who works toward solving problems, he’d rather take his frustration out on you because it makes him feel better.

      Unfortunately, Another anon is right – there are tons of jerks like this in law, and you will either have to take it (and learn to ignore them without breaking down) or move on.

      1. This is a great reply. About 99% of the time, you can call the client, give them a head’s up that the pre-bill is incorrect and it will be X amount higher, and it’s NBD.

         At both of the firms that I’ve worked at, we have the two-step time entry process. Most people don’t have their assistants release their time, and at my first firm, it was policy to do the second step, or “release” your time daily.

         Unless your firm’s policy is similar to SF Bay Associate’s, use this opportunity to learn a tough lesson – release your time daily. Even if it’s not official policy, I’ve never met a partner that was angry that an associate was releasing his/her time more often than required.

         (PS: I’ve seen MUCH worse blunders as an associate before. Ask me about the time my secretary forgot to serve a Summary Judgment Reply…)

   5. Couldn’t they just send out a second bill? Either, Dear client, we realize that the attached time was not included in the first bill. Sorry for any inconvenience but please pay both.

      Or, Dear client, please disregard the last bill. This is the correct bill.

   6. Sounds like a particular d-bag partner at my firm — agree he is pissed the deal fell apart and probably is facing own unique partner-level financial pressures. This could be fixed by a reasonably competant partner (as found a peanut suggested) with adequate client management skills but instead he’s being a jerk to you.

      We have a similar system where associates put in their time and most associates then “release” time in a second step (this is where it is sent to accounting). It used be auto-released at an monthly due date, now it’s weekly. Increasingly with budget conscious clients we get more of these – “release your time at totally random time” emails — often with little notice.

      While it does suck that you missed the email and/or for some reason weren’t able to release time, agree that you need to take the lesson and move on — easier said then done. For the lesson, did you miss the email? Was it an assistant issue? Technical glitch? Figure out the issue and then work to improve in future. If he’s a d-bag, he will always be, and you’re best to work with more professional people as to be “unavailable” when he needs assistance in the future.

      1. What does it mean to “release” time? Does that mean you can’t change it any more?

   7. If it helps, you’ve made my crap-tastic day seem a bit better. Wow, you had a stinker of day! Sorry.

      1. How would that help? :(

         Sorry, OP, I hope things get better soon. The others have all given very good advice.

         1. By comparison, my day was better then OP’s so I have so reason to feel awful.

         2. Not Anonymous, but when I’ve vented to someone about a bad day and they’ve responded with something like that – “wow, that’s awful. makes me put my own issues in perspective,” I’ve found that to be a nice response. Some people take comfort in having their problems minimized – “that’s not so bad, look at how bad MY day was!/look at this article about someone who REALLY messed up” but I prefer to have my view validated. :)

            1. Anonymous and E, That makes sense. I didn’t think of the response from that perspective. I thought you meant, “At least your day was worse than mine!” This is one of those moments that I realize everyone is not like me. Carry on!

               And I’m sorry your day was bad too, Anonymous.

   8. Read the book “Undomestic Goddess” by Sophie Kinsella. Feel better.

      1. That’s the best book ever for when you’re feeling stressed out and incompetent at work.

   9. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. It sucks, don’t do it again, but this sort of thing happens all the time. You didn’t cost them $20K, you just delayed when they get it.

   10. Whoever received the bill probably did not mind at all that it was $20k short! (not trying to be snarky, just offering another perspective)

2. I like this bag a lot, it has structure with a little bit of slouch.

3. Threadjack – Recruiter cold call contacted me about a great attorney position at a *large* corporation. However, I recently applied for another position with a different division of the corporation, so recruiter was unable to submit me as an applicant (they won’t get a fee because I’m already in their system). But, recruiter recommended I make direct contact and gave me the appropriate contact information. I definitely want to apply directly but am wondering how to phrase my introduction — was asked not to use recruiter company or individual name and the public jobs posting is an electronic submission form that does not list any contact individuals. Any suggestions?

   1. Just send it to your contact info, without explanation.
      “Dear X, I understand you are currently hiring for the position of Y . . . .”

      If they call you for an interview, and it comes up, you can discreetly explain how you learned of the position through a recruiter who asked that his/her name not be used. Don’t think you have to say more than that. I would imagine no one will ask.

4. I tutor a 7 year old girl who confided in me today that she is being physically/sexually abused by a neighbor. I contacted her teacher, the school psychologist (who has been suspecting abuse for a while now), as well as my city’s child protection hotline and filed a report. Is there anything else that I should be doing? I feel terrible and want to help this little girl.

   1. I think that you have probably done all that you can or should, unless you know the child’s parent. The teacher and school psychologist are almost certainly mandatory reporters, so they will most likely take care of notifying law enforcement. Do you know if the child’s parent knows what has happened? I think that a party that knows the parent (like a teacher) will be more likely to understand the family dynamics, which parent to approach, how to explain this, etc. However, if no one has talked to the parents, obviously, someone should, so you might want to make sure that is happening.

      It is a very good sign that this child trusts you enough to ask for your help with something so awful. Obviously, anything you can do to emotionally support her is very important, but the most critical thing is ensuring that those adults who have the capacity to protect her from the abuser know what is going on and have taken action.

      1. Thanks for your comments. We are actually trying to build a case against her father, whom we have reason to suspect is physically abusing her and her sisters (not sexual abuse, but hitting). The girl lives with her father. The mother is not in the picture at all, for some reason. But I agree with you that the father should know about the sexual abuse from the neighbor. It’s a very sad situation.

         1. This is so horrible.

            Good for you for doing the right thing for her.

         2. Also, if you happen to be in the Seattle/King County area, we have a really excellent support program here for sexual assault victims, which provides both counseling and support through any legal process, and is free. Long shot, I know (you could be anywhere), but thought I’d offer.

            1. And king county has a therapy dog (calm retriever or lab) to sit with children so they can pet them while they talk about what happened. Awesomeness.

         3. Please be careful with the father. If he is absusive he might blame the child and take it out on her. – I’ve seen it happen. I feel for this girl and I’m glad she has you in her corner.

   2. Keep tutoring her. Keep being there for her. Believing her and advocating for her are the best things you can do.

      1. Regular commenter switching my handle for this one. I was sexually assaulted by an extended family member when I was 6. For almost 20 years, I didn’t tell anyone because of the overwhelming, if irrational, shame and guilt I was feeling. I still haven’t told my parents.

         I think this is excellent advice. She might be struggling with all kinds of doubts and feelings, but she did a strong and brave thing opening up to you. This is going to be part of who she is for the rest of her life, in ways she may not understand now or even decades from now; you don’t have to understand it or anticipate everything she’s going through, but continuing to be there for her will help her more than you realize.

   3. Is there a number related to the police (separate from the child protection hotline) that you can call? What about her parent(s)?

   4. How absolutely horrible. I find that in terrible situations, corporette-types are experts at gathering information and resources for those directly affected. Maybe contact RAINN (rape, abuse, and incest national network – http://www.rainn.org ) and get information about counseling services in your area, including free/reduced rates, and what things on you can do to help that little girl through this terrible ordeal. Her parents are probably not as level-headed and resourceful as you right now, so they may appreciate being presented with an array of thoughtfully researched options and sources of assistance from someone who cares so much about their daughter.

      1. In most states, many counseling options are available for free to child victims of sexual abuse, however, those options are triggered by reporting the crime to Child/Family Protective Services or law enforcement.

   5. The school psychologist would be able to advise you if there’s anything else you can or should do. Give her a call back and ask. Most likely, the school has already taken the lead on reporting (as they’re required to report these things by law), although you’ll probably be asked at some point to make a formal statement to police or lawyers.

   6. The most important thing besides reporting is to make sure she knows that it’s not her fault. She’ll be hearing that from everyone but it is definitely comforting to hear it from someone close, rather than a caseworker or a psychologist.

   7. I am a prosecutor who handles sexual abuse of children cases.

      1) Tell her parents.

      2) Call the police (even if the parents don’t want you to)

      I can’t tell you how many times I see cases where a child “outcries” to a teacher/friend/family member and NOBODY calls the police. Teachers and counselors are not law enforcement and frequently think they know who to contact/what to do, but often they are wrong.

      Most importantly, people need to stop asking the child what happened until AFTER a forensic interview is done by the local child assessment center with a person trained in child interview techniques.

      1. Ok, maybe not “most importantly,” because the most important thing you can do is to keep the child safe. That requires immediate action.

      2. Strong agreement with your last point, not just for evidentiary reasons, but also because repeatedly being asked to tell the story by people who are not trained in interviewing children can be a further trauma for a young survivor of sexual abuse.

         I speak as one who’s been in the child’s shoes.

         1. Absolutely, the last thing we want is to “re-victimize” the child by having them tell the story a million times. A child’s well-being is the MOST important thing. Ideally, the only times a child would discuss it would be 1) at outcry, 2) at the forensic interview (which could be reviewed by law enforcement, cps, etc.), 3) at therapy sessions, and 4) at trial if it comes to that.

            Even more anon: My thoughts are with you during this month of Child Abuse Awareness. Thanks for sharing.

            1. Thank you. My family chose not to report my abuse to law enforcement. My parents made what they thought was the best decision and the least “disruptive”, somehow not realizing or not wanting to realize that my life was already “disrupted.” Even though I was no longer being abused, I often longed for someone outside my family – the police or a prosecutor – to find out and to bring everything into the light.

               To me, you’re a hero. Thank you for what you do.

      3. Calling the police may or may not be a good option from the child’s perspective. If she can be safe without police intervention, that would probably be better for her. Getting the police involved means she will have to retell the experience to lots of people for purposes other than her own interests (ie: the police’s interests in completing an investigation, the prosecution’s interests in pressing charges, etc). Not that calling the police is the wrong thing to do, but it is something that benefits society’s interests more than the child’s interests.

         -wary of police involvement after seeing how it affected my sister when she was in a similar situation

         1. Not calling the police means that the perpetrator WILL continue to victimize additional children. If you can stop the cycle of abuse, you should.

         2. Ok, so my last comment might have been a bit abrupt. Here is my perspective:

            Yes, there are some cases that a prosecutor might choose to NOT pursue because it will do more damage than good to the child. However, the abuser WILL abuse again. More children WILL be victims of sexual abuse.

            If the child and/or family choose to not pursue the case, that is something the child and/or family can make clear to law enforcement/the prosecution/etc. in the future. But for someone to advise a third party to NOT report something to the police is to advise them to break the law. If you know about child abuse and don’t report it, you are liable to be charged with “Failure to Report Child Abuse” in many states. Keep this in mind. You MUST report child abuse that you are aware of: To do otherwise is illegal.

   8. Before you forget, take super good notes of everything she told you, what time she told you, the date, who you then told, etc. This case may not come to trial for years and you will likely be a witness. Your notes will be used to “refresh your recollection” on the stand, may even be a business record depending on your employer’s policy for “incident reports,” or could serve as evidence of a “past recollection recorded” depending on how lenient your state is on hearsay issues.

      I once was called to testify to something three years after it happened. Despite how scary the incident was when it happened I couldn’t remember most of the things the prosecutor wanted me to know. My incident report from work saved the case.

      1. This is a good point, but a caveat: In many states the law requires that a defense attorney be allowed to review all writings a witness uses to refresh their memory. If you create a recorded recollection:

         1) Make sure you keep up with it and don’t lose it,
         2) Make sure it is written in a way that you don’t mind being cross-examined about,
         3) Make sure you let law enforcement know about it.

         In all honesty, you will probably have to give a written or recorded statement to the police. If so, if you are ever required to testify at trial, you should be given access to those statements at trial time, so there really might not be a need to create your own documentation.

   9. Thank you for helping her. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was sexually abused by a babysitter when I was a little younger than this little girl, and did not feel I could tell anyone. I finally told my mother what had happened when I was 12, but there was no evidence, my own recollections were too hazy, and too much time had passed for the guy to be prosecuted. What you did should be sufficient to get her help. It is so, so awesome that she trusted you so much that she was able to tell you, when she probably had not been able to tell anyone else. You did the right thing. Thank you for having the courage to do so.

      1. Thank YOU for having the courage to share your story.

   10. Thank you all for your helpful suggestions. I have never met her parents and in fact have reason to suspect that her father is physically abusing her as well. I don’t know how much good telling the father will be. The mother is MIA, perhaps in prison.

       The girl has told me that she has told her father about the neighbor’s actions but that he still tells the girl to go over to the neighbor’s house (I suspect that the girl is being babysat by this neighbor when the girl’s father is out of the house). Nevertheless, I agree that the father should know about the situation.

       I am a law clerk and am going to discuss this with my judge tomorrow, as he has unfortunately seen lots of these kinds of cases and will probably have advice for me as well.

       I am also going to record everything she told me in writing in case I have to testify at a later date. That’s an excellent idea, thanks.

       Please keep this girl in your thoughts/prayers. Her initials are JR. Thanks again.

       1. Please let us know how everything is resolved . . . I will keep you and JR in my thoughts and prayers.

          In the meantime, the following website might also be helpful (in corporette-friendly format):

          www dot childwelfare dot gov/preventing/preventionmonth

5. Late (hopefully not too late) threadjack:

   A flaky friend flaked on me (surprise!) when i needed her. I am angry and sad. She just sent me a text (it’s been a month since our last contact) suggesting that we make plans and apologizing (yet again) for being a flaky friend. I don’t necessarily want to end our friendship, although I’ve considered it, but I’m pretty tired of her ways.

   Right now I am ignoring her, but I would like to respond in a more mature way. (I am in my mid-30s after all.) Has anyone successfully confronted a flaky friend? How did it go? What did you say? Advice please!

   1. I will preface this with the caveat that I’m not the kind of person who surrounds herself with loads of friends. I prefer to have a few select, good friends, including my SO.

      I had an associate mentor at my former law firm, years ago. Our professional relationship developed into friendship, and after we both left the firm, we maintained close contact. For example, we’d share birthdays together (our own, and our SOs), and get together frequently to socialize. Over time, however, she became obsessed with her work to the point of alienating everyone. I was tolerant of it for a while, even though we got together less and less, and when we did get together, all she did was say how busy she was at work and complain about her husband. I was losing interest in the relationship, but the turning point was one day that we were scheduled to have lunch together. The partner she worked for was on vacation out of the country, and there were no imminent client demands. We scheduled lunch in a nice restaurant in her office building (close to my building, too). First, she kept me waiting for 30 minutes. I found out it was because she had forgotten to bring her blackberry, and spent the time demanding a loaner from IT. When the loaner was better than her regular bberry, she demanded an upgrade, all the while making me wait. She then spent the entire lunch checking her blackberry to the complete exclusion of any meaningful conversation.

      She has/had many great qualities, but I was so put off by that whole encounter, which was not the first of its kind. I just decided that, since I have limited time to spend with non-work friends outside of work, I don’t want to waste that time on relationships that aren’t worth it. I decided this one was not worth it. And, I let the relationship phase out. There was no sudden “we can’t be friends” conversation. But I never really made any more outreaches to her either. I don’t regret how I handled it. I feel like she was the one who decided to make work a priority, which is fine, but it does have other consequences. The people I surround myself with are few, but important and significant relationships, and I prefer to keep it that way; I’ll save the “small talk” types of relationships for work, etc.

   2. My husband and I have a mutual friend that is his close friend from high school that has been soooo flakey lately due to work. My husband was recently going through a rough time and not opening up much about it. I called mutual friend and left him a voice mail that said “hey, husband could really use a call or visit from you. He is having a rough time.” I didn’t get a response. I emailed him and said “hey, just let me know you got my voicemail. Thanks.” A day later he wrote back “didn’t get it.” So I wrote him again and said “husband is dealing w/ x, y, and z and could really use an old friend to talk to. If you could make the time, I know he would love to hear from you but probably won’t take the step to call you to talk about it.” Mutual friend didn’t write back and as far as I know, never call husband. GRRRRRR. Part of me wants to tell husband, your friend sucks but I know he already knows it and it would just add to his problems. I’m just glad to vent on here and share in my annoyance of flakes.

   3. I told a flaky friend that I really liked hanging out with her, but couldn’t continue to make plans with her if she always cancelled or if she was late. (She had cancelled at the last minute like the last three times we were supposed to hang out.) I think she got mad, but she got over it. I still invite her to parties/girls night/etc., but nothing that’s just her and me. If she wants to invite me, I’d go. But I’m not going to spend time making plans with her if she continues to blow me off.

   4. I have a friend who is pretty much the same. If I ever make plans with him, I know not to count on him to come through. I’ll have a back up plan. Honestly, sometimes you just have to take friends for what they are worth, and sadly, that isn’t always a lot. If I have plans with him, I now know not to go out of my way, and if I want to do something that requires extra driving or something, I try to involve other people so that if he flakes, I won’t let it ruin my day. If I see him, great. If not, oh well, his loss. If that is not your style, then be done with the friendship. They generally don’t change unless there is something going on to make them act this way. Usually it is just their personality.

   5. I think you need to figure out the underlying reason for the flakiness. Unfortunately as we get older, I think it can be harder to call someone up and expect him/her to drop everything to help you. I know now that I’m in my mid 30s, I don’t expect the same level of commitment from my friends that I would have expected ten years ago. I’ve had times when I really did want to help a friend but just was unable because of other things I had going on in my life.

      There are also some people who you can confront about being flaky, but that’s just their nature and there is nothing you can do. You just have to accept that’s the way they are and don’t make plans one on one or that will result in some penalty to you or a group if that person doesn’t show up.

   6. I have a couple friends who are seriously flaky. One is someone I’d consider a “best” friend; the other is more of a friend I enjoy when I see him but don’t see all the time. I think that you just have to accept that flakiness is a personality trait that you can’t change and you just have to accept. In the case of my best friend, her other good qualities outweigh this particular fault, even though her flakiness drives me crazy (and worse, she is usually oblivious to how frustrated I am when she flakes out on me). I have learned not to rely on her to be where she says she’ll be or do what she says she’ll do, but have also learned to appreciate her spontaneaity and free-spiritedness (two characteristics that I decidedly do not possess, which probably drives her crazy).

      In the case of my other flaky friend, I like him, but his good qualities don’t outweigh his flakiness. I’m happy to see him when I run into him, but I never make plans with him.

      So, basically, if this is a fault you can live with, continue your friendship and modify your behavior so you don’t rely on her for things. And if you can’t live with it, then be friends who run into each other now and again instead of friends who make plans together. So be it.

      1. Just to offer another perspective — people who withdraw/”flake” on social commitments may be struggling with mental health issues. Having friends who keep trying to make contact/get together over and over can be a big help to someone feeling alone and struggling. Not saying that’s the case, but just another perspective.

         1. I agree with this, have you examined why your friend is “flaking”? I am guilty of backing out of plans when I’m feeling depressed and/or overwhelmed by work. Of course, I usually give advance notice and explain the situation, I’ve never stood anyone up to the point he or she was at our planned destination wondering where I was. Sometimes my friends need to cancel, we’re all busy professional adults, and you have to go with the flow sometimes, even if it is frustrating or inconvenient. I would feel even worse if my occasional habit of breaking the plans due to my personal issues resulted in my friend cutting me off forever. I would only consider cutting off a friend if I was repeatedly left waiting with no explanation. Thankfully my friends are empathetic and realize I’m not doing it to spite them, and they would rather spend time with me when I’m not in a terrible mood.

            1. But how often do you do this in a row? And wouldn’t you expect that your friends might consider it rude?

   7. Let me offer a different perspective as someone who was dumped for being a flaky friend. There are certainly those people out there who flake for not very good reasons, but I would give your friend the benefit of the doubt before dumping her entirely.

      When I got married, I moved to a different part of the country and was getting adjusted to a new life, looking for a new job, trying to make new friends, etc. I had a childhood friend who called me 4 or 5 times and left messages, but I did not reply to them because I got busy. She got VERY upset, accused me of abandoning her, and said that she never wanted to talk to me again. I have tried calling/emailing her since then (this was 7 years ago) and she basically made it clear that she wants nothing to do with me.

      I kept reaching out to her hoping for a reconciliation. The icing on the cake was when she did not invite me to her wedding. That’s when I knew our friendship was truly over, and I stopped reaching out to her. It’s sad.

      So bottom line, just try to understand WHY your friend is being flaky. She may have a valid reason.

      1. But I think that’s the problem.. you said you got busy which isn’t really a reason when she tried to reach out to you five times. You can’t fit in a 20 minute phone call? I would not have ended the friendship over it but getting busy isn’t really a reason to not call someone back after five times

         1. agreed, no matter how busy you are, if the friendship is valuable to you, after 5 calls (I assume over some period of time) you should be able to find sometime to return the call. I have a friend who always has a million reasons why she is too busy to return a call but it hurts because the message she is sending (when months and months go by) is she does not prioritize or value the friendship in the same way I do. So that friend gets re-prioritized in my life as well.

            1. If not a phone call, at least a text. Most of my friends and family know not to expect a phone call. Testing and e-mails work when I’m busy.

   8. I had a friend who was a bit flaky, then got very flaky – she once bailed on a joint vacation at 10 pm the night before. Fast forward several years, and I find out that she is/was a secret alcoholic who was VERY good at covering up. During the very flaky years, I can’t count how many times I nearly ended the friendship. When she finally faced her problem and went public with it, she needed all the support she could get, and I was glad that I was still her friend. After sobering up, she reverted back to the slightly flaky but very good friend that she had been to me in school and continues to be one of my very best friends.

      Short version: there may be something going on of which you are unaware. If you think this is possible, you may need to distance yourself a little bit, in order to preserve your sanity and the friendship. When my friend was in the throes of her alcoholism, and I didn’t know and just thought she was the most self-centered neurotic on earth, I started making plans with her that always had a built-in back up plan for me, should she flake out on me.

6. Wow – heavy thread today!

   On a lighter note, isn’t Nixon the surfer/skater brand? Is it such a west coast thing that Kat wasn’t aware of it before? :)

   1. Like the cute Mod rubbery, minimalist watches, I would think?

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