ByKat Hours Updated
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Thursday’s Workwear Report: V-Neck Ponte Knit Midi Sheath Dress

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. felicity-coco-sheath-dressFelicity & Coco's body conscious sheath dress has been a best seller at Nordstrom for years (341 positive reviews! 9 colors!), and while I've recommended it for the weekend in the past, the exposed zipper that runs along the full length of the dress has stopped me from recommending it for work. But even Classiques Entier is doing it now (I own this dress, on sale for $91-$136) — and this new version with a notched V-neck is mighty cute. While the original sheath dress comes in nine colors (!), this one is only available in cobalt — thus far — for $98, in regular and petite sizes XS-XL. Felicity & Coco V-Neck Ponte Knit Midi Sheath Dress  This plus-size sheath dress is very similar, and on sale. Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com. (L-all)

Sales of note for 12.5

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

255 Comments

  1. There’s been some threads about jackets instead of cardigans lately that interest me. I wear a cardigan every day. I recently got the Hazelbury blazer from Boden in the rose Quartz color but it’s been too warm to wear it yet.

    What does an ideal jacket wardrobe look like? I have about 10 3/4 sleeve cardigans and 7 or 8 long sleeve ones. Jackets are more expensive so I imagine people own fewer.

    What would you recommend for someone starting to step up to jackets with a base wardrobe of black and gray? I tried looking on Pinterest for inspiration but wasn’t finding much. Any suggestions for people to look to in order to see an outfit styled with a jacket? I’d love specific recommendations or even just store recs. Ideally plus size options. Or just general fabric and color advice.

    1. Ha, I own way more blazers than cardigans. I’m always cold so I prefer blazers for the warmth factor. Plus, at least at the stores I shop at (Target and mall brands, basically), cardigans will pill and/or get stretched out within a year but blazers will easily go five years. I think if your wardrobe is mostly black and gray, your options for blazers are basically unlimited. You can wear pretty much any color. H&M is a great blazer source for me. They’re about $35 and hold up very well, but I’m not sure about plus size there. The Limited also has a huge selection, and they make their Madison blazer in just about every color imaginable. I like the styling on their website too.

      1. Thanks for The Limited suggestion. Looks like they have a lot of good options. I think I’m going to order the Marled 1-Button jacket. I wish the green Madison long sleeve jacket wasn’t out of stock in the XXL!

        1. not in my opinion… particularly for someone who wears one every day. Anon, can we avoid the “OMG you have too many clothes” attitude here please?

          To build your blazer wardrobe, I’d suggest looking for tweedy, textured, black and white/cream pieces, as they’d pair well with either black or gray and look “intentional.” Talbots often has a good selection (though like other mall stores, wait for at least 30% off sales), and JCrew usually has a few as well.

          1. Why? It seems totally normal to me have 18 of something that you wear every day, like Sydney said she did. Cost per wear and all that. Obviously if you only wear cardigans to church or something, 18 would be excessive.

          2. That’s enough to wear a different cardigan to work every day for more than three weeks without doing laundry!

            Sydney, you enjoy your cardigans with gusto. This is amazement not critique.

          3. Ha I still do laundry once a week. Not enough Spanx or tops to go much longer than that. My goal is a solid 2 week wardrobe so I can do laundry less often!

          1. Lord indeed. One can wear cardigans many, many times without needing to clean/wash/dry clean them. I mean really, with something underneath the cardigan (blouse, dress), it’s like a blazer in terms of how often it needs to be care for and freshened.

            What’s with all the negativity today? If not in a Big Law or top formal business role, what’s wrong with a cardigan that fits well and complements the rest of the outfit.

            Put the claws away, girls.

          2. @anon anon Armani…what? literally nobody has said a cardigan is inappropriate for work.

        4. Lord, wow. I have two cardigans. I wear them like every day but they’re just what I throw on at work – though I consider them part of the outfit when I’m getting dressed. I will generally switch out my blazer for a cardigan in the fall/winter/early spring when I get to the office, they’re just more comfortable/flexible/very few people rock a blazer all day around here. I saw this # and thought, wow, maybe I’m really behind on my wardrobe!

        5. I have about 20. I wear one almost every day. Most are long sleeve but I do have 3 short sleeve and 2 that are 3/4 sleeve. And I don’t feel that I have a large wardrobe.

      2. 18 seems like normal or even on the low side for someone who wears most cardigans as a top layer. I probably own 12 cardigans or so and maybe 20 blazers. And I spend way less money on clothes than the average poster here…

          1. Jesus. Calm down. Just because you prefer a more minimal wardrobe doesn’t mean everyone does.

          2. +1 I don’t understand. How does anyone have enough days in the year to cycle through a wardrobe that size?

          3. Easily, anon at 11:12. There are more than 250 work days a year. Even if she never wore them on weekends, she could wear each cardigan almost 15 times a year.

          4. Also, you may be young and haven’t been buying clothes for all that long. If you’ve only been out of school for a handful of years and buying work clothes for that long, it seems like a lot. But three cardigans a year for 6 years is 18. Boom!

            And, uh, you may want to sit down and take a sip of water…

          5. Admittedly, I have a lot of clothes. I will even say, way too many articles of clothing. But, oh well, it’s my vice.

            Plus, what Senior Attorney is getting at – I’m old. My top hasn’t really changed in size in 15+ years (don’t ask about my bottom half). I wear a cardigan pretty much every day. It’s a habit that started when I had jobs where I would be in an office setting part of the day and then in the lab the rest, and had to wear a lab coat. It was much easier to wear a cardigan for the cold office room, then take it off to accommodate the lab coat.

            Now, I just like cardigans. I have no need for blazers in my uber-casual office, and I like the temperature control that comes with cardigans.

            I probably have 18 fall/winter cardigans alone. And could use a new gray cashmere one this year.

            Cardigan lovers, unite!

      3. Yeah, I think so. It’s built up over time. They are all different colors. I only wear the 3/4 sleeve ones when it’s warm and the long sleeve ones when it’s cooler. There isn’t a lot of overlap. Maybe it helps to think of it as 2 separate seasonal wardrobes of cardigans. Each has about 1-2 weeks worth of options.

        The rest of my wardrobe is fairly minimal. 4 skirts (black and gray) and about 10 tops that I wear under the cardigans. That’s my daily work uniform.

      4. I have probably 30 or so? Many of them date back to college. I keep my clothes in good condition and cardigans are the kind of thing that never really go out of style. So I’ve probably acquired two/year at most, but I’ve built up a huge collection. I don’t find this strange at all.

        1. How do you store them all so you can see/find them when you are trying to decide what to wear, and not have them wrinkled fro pm folding or stretched out from being on hangers?

          3. I actually have an impressive amount of closet space for NYC.

            I just hang them normally in color order. As I said, I only wear either the 3/4 sleeve ones or the long sleeve ones at a time, depending on the weather. There’s maybe 2 weeks of overlap. So I just have whichever ones I’m wearing in the center of my closet so I see them all when I open the doors. Over the years I’ve weeded out brands that seem to stretch out. Everything is either Halogen or Eddie Bauer’s Christine cardigan at this point.

            I’m surprised at how many people think I have a ton of clothes. Really, I have these cardigans, the pink blazer, about 10 tops, 4 skirts, 3 dresses, a pair of jeans, a couple of sweatshirts, and 2 pairs of shorts. That’s basically it. I know the specifics because I recently loaded them all into StyleBook. I wear the same tops and cardigans or sweatshirts on the weekends and just switch jeans or shorts for skirts. Not a huge wardrobe in my mind!

    4. I’d start out by buying blazers in the colours you wear the most when you wear your cardigans. Keep in mind that if you wear black and grey pants/skirts a lot (I don’t know if you do – I’m just assuming because you mentioned a base wardrobe of black and grey) then you’re probably better off getting a textured jacket (maybe even a black and grey tweed!) to avoid the look of mismatched suiting pieces.

      1. I wasn’t clear that the textured jacket recommendation applies specifically to black or grey blazers that might look mismatched with your black or grey pants. Obviously you don’t need all your blazers to be textured (unless you really like that look)!

        1. Yeah I really switch back and forth between black and gray pencil skirts. My tops and cardigans are a variety of colors. I’ll keep an eye out for textured blazers. Would other non-suiting fabric like ponte help with that too?

          1. A lot of ponte fades, so I don’t think wearing a black pencil skirt and a faded black ponte blazer would be a winning combination. I think you still run the risk of looking like you tried to create a “suit” but failed.

            I wear cardigans and blazers to work equally, but I have a lot more cardigans because they’re an affordable way to try out new colours in my wardrobe. When I find that I’m wearing one cardigan a lot (for example, last year it was a purple cashmere cardigan I was wearing at least once a week), I start looking for a blazer in that colour.

          2. Are your skirts suiting material? If so, I think they can look a little off with some ponte, but you’d just have to try.

            Also, you seem to have a uniform that’s working for you. From your prior posts re: your job, I get the impression you’re mostly at your desk working independently, and you routinely have 10+ hour days at the office. If you’re comfortable in your cardigans, there’s no reason to waste energy (and spend money) finding blazers, especially given the challenges of finding good plus size options. Blazers are also annoying to wear commuting on the subway — if it’s hot, you sweat like crazy, and you need a bigger coat to wear over them when it’s cold. If you do start working in blazers, unless you have a larger closet than I ever did when I lived in NYC, you probably need to get used to wearing them more frequently than you wear your cardigans.

          3. KBT, that’s all true and a good point. I always have in the back of my head that I want to step my wardrobe up to blazers but haven’t really been able to make the leap. I’m going to try and work the pink blazer into my rotation and see if I can get comfortable with it. I might try and find a gray blazer as well to start with.

            My skirts are suiting material. Not necessarily the bottom half of a suit, but definitely something that could be a suit. I don’t think I’d wear a blazer in the same color as my skirt for fear of looking like a mismatched suit. A gray tweedy blazer might be just the ticket with my black skirts though.

          4. I think that you want to run far away from anything that looks like a mismatched suit. When I wear my “jacket and pants” uniform, I’m aiming for something that looks like these Talbots links. For me, I usually avoid anything labelled “blazer” and look for something labelled “jacket.” I also focus on non-suiting fabrics, interesting colors, different styling details (peplums, a moto jacket), etc. I find that jackets are distinctive and you can’t wear them a lot (I have a bright pink one that I try to limit to only a few times a season because it’s so vivid), but they also are pretty timeless (so that pink jacket has served me well for at least 7 years).

            https://www.talbots.com/online/browse/product_details.jsp?id=prdi40456&defaultColor=8987&N=10229&selectedConcept=

            https://www.talbots.com/online/browse/product_details.jsp?id=prdi40202&defaultColor=4146&N=10229&No=24&selectedConcept=&_=1473968431877&Nrpp=24&Nr=AND(OR(product.siteId%3ATalbotsSite)%2COR(product.catalogId%3Acatalog20002))

    5. I own one cardigan and four jackets (mainly because jackets have some structure where as cardigans just hang on me in a weird way). I work in CA and in tech. So dress code is super casual. I remember

      1. Camel brown cotton jacket from Tommy Hilfiger
      2. Military green cotton jacket from Target (Target’s Merona brand)
      3. Dark blue and black tweed from Pendleton
      4. Donegal tweed blazer in houndstooth pattern from LLBean

      I am in the market for a black wool blazer which is more on the casual side (not a suiting blazer). Regarding costs, I bought blazer from Pendleton which was in final sale for 30$ last year. It is a simple 100% merino wool blazer, fully lined and has a nice shape. Many people have complimented me on that. I bought LLBean blazer for $30 (down from $159). The blazer is deeply discounted and I had two 10$ gift cards which I got during my previous purchases and LLBean was running 10% off sale. If cost is the main concern, buy them during July – August. You will have less options to choose from, but if you look extensively, you will get nice pieces.

    6. I don’t wear cardigans but generally wear a blazer most days, either as part of a suit or non-matching. I have the following non-suit blazers, which I usually wear with a matching pencil skirt or dress:

      1. White double breasted (summer only)
      2. Ivory Chanel style
      3. Light grey tweed Chanel style
      4. Black and white tweed Chanel style
      5. Navy tweed Chanel style
      6. Cobalt
      7. Black and pink tweed moto
      8. Red peplum
      9. Black collarless

      Also wear my navy, beige, black suiting blazers with non-matching dresses.

    7. For soft jackets/blazers that are less formal than a suit jacket but more so than a cardigan, I tend to look for soft fabrics like ponte. I’m plus sized, but I work in a casual industry and am hard on my clothes, so right now my closet has jackets from Torrid, Target and TJMaxx, which I know aren’t going to hold up all that well but are fine for the couple wears per season they each get right now. I’m borderline plus sized on top, so I can sometimes wear an 18 jacket in brands that have done some vanity sizing, like the Limited.

      The tricky part for me is that so often plus sized items come in limited colors and I don’t want to look like I tried to make a suit from separates and failed because the blacks don’t match, so my outfits tend to be black or navy jacket + colored shirt + gray or camel bottoms or gray jacket + black or navy bottom. I think the pink blazer you bought sounds very pretty but I’m too much of a slob and I fear it would have my morning coffee on it before I even got to work on the first day – eliminating light colors limits my personal palette even more.

      2. Getting a jacket version of my favorite cardigans is a great idea. Thanks for the specific suggestions too!

      3. +1 on the open jackets. I found a 3/4 sleeve Kasper one at Macys that I wear whenever I need extra polish, but it’s not stuffy or frumpy at all.

    9. So my base is pretty similar–black or gray pants/skirts. From there, I own very few cardigans and almost never wear them. I have probably as many jackets as you have cardigans. Almost none of my jackets are black–if they are, they almost have to be textured to work. I do wear gray jackets. And I also have blue, red, purple, white (pretty much warm in summer only), ivory. With any “neutral” jacket–black, gray, ivory, white–I tend to wear colorful or patterned shells. With the colorful jackets, I tend to wear neutral shells.

    10. If you are still reading, try Loft. I don’t know what their sizing options are, but I like their blazers in that they fit great and are typically textured so they can be worn with the same color dress but don’t look like a mismatched suit. The Loft collarless blazer is great.

  2. I’m looking for a pair of flat leather oxford-style flats. I’m not sure exactly how to describe the shape I’m looking for, but I like ones that are a bit more pointed, without laces, and with a cut/opening along the top of the foot so the two sides overlap a bit. I am also looking for desert boots that have arch support. Any ideas?

    1. Yay Kat! What a beautiful sheathe dress! I will definiteley ask for the manageing partner to reimburse me if I get this one, even if the zipper is visibel in the back b/c the judge often ask’s me to face the court when I make a point, and he never complain’s.

      As for the OP, check out the Ralph Lauren line of shoe’s. They look a littel prep school, but they are flatter then I can wear, but you sound taller then me and able to pull off that look. I wish I were 2″ taller like Rosa–then I could wear flat’s according to Dad. But for now, it’s strictly 4″ pumps for me. FOOEY!

      1. I’m looking at these, but would love some real world feedback about comfort and durability if anyone owns them!
        OP – I saw someone wearing exactly what you mentioned on my commute yesterday, but sadly I don’t know what the brand was. In general, I really like Cole Haan oxfords (wingtip and jagger) but they aren’t what you’ve described.

      2. I got the stellato Nov 2015 and wore the heck out of them both in the office and commuting. The uppers looked good so I tried re-soling them, but I also tried a new shoe place so i’m not happy with what they did, but I still love the shoes and got a different pair in the stellato. You may want to size a half size down because over 6 months mine stretched out a lot (or my feet swell in the summer)

  3. Can anyone in the DC area recommend a good thrift/consignment shop that carries larger sizes? Not necessarily plus size, but 14-16ish?

    1. The consignment shop at eastern market has a small selection but decent range of sizes. The brands are generally Talbots, Lafayette 148, Elieen Fisher.. I’m a dedicated thrifter and really like Goodwill at Columbia Pike and Annandale.

  4. Favorite dressy black flats? I have some from Report that are faux patent leather with a toe that hovers between almond and pointy. They’ve been workhorses for me for 2+ years but are definitely on their way out. Ideally I’d like my next pair to cost less than $100 and be made from real leather…recommendations welcome!

    1. Geox – go to Amazon or 6pm to find the ones in your budget. Comfortable and durable.
      Nine West usually has nice pointy-toe styles, but they are not as well-made or comfortable.

    2. My favorite pointy toe black flats are Sam Edelmans that I bought on clearance at DSW. They are really comfortable because they have some padding inside.

      1. I swear by Clarks pointy-toe flats. Real leather with actual structure and support. The style I prefer is called “Corabeth Abby”. You can find them on sale or occasionally at a Clarks Outlet for a great price.

      1. I can’t buy or even wear her stuff anymore, so I’ve switched to Louise et Cie. When on sale, they’re under $100. I’m really happy with them.

    4. Anne Klein sport. They have a slight heel but they are the most comfortable work shoes ever and last a while..

    5. Suggestions for very soft short sleeved work appropriate tshirts under $30? To wear under jackets or suits or with cardigans in a business casual workplace.

  5. Are you supposed to bring a gift when invited to an adult’s birthday party? A fellow mom at the class that my son takes invited us to her birthday party at a bar (no kids) this weekend. Most of the time when adults celebrate birthdays in my experience, it’s more of a no gifts, let’s just do something fun thing, but apparently she’s actually renting out this (small) bar late Saturday afternoon and providing food, so it’s more of an actual birthday party, I guess. I don’t know the couple very well at all, but we’d like to have more parent-friends, so I do want to go. But now I’m caught up on presents and worried about doing it wrong. What’s expected here, if anything? Bottle of wine or something fairly generic like that?

    1. Yeah, I would bring a gift. I don’t think you bring a gift when it’s just like “hey lets get together for a drink” thing, but if she’s paying a rental fee and buying food, a gift seems appropriate. Bottle of wine seems good to me.

      2. +1 If someone hosts me for their birthday, I bring a gift. If someone invites me to celebrate their birthday by having a drink or dinner where I pay for the drinks or dinner, I don’t (usually) bring a gift.

    2. I don’t know that I’ve experienced something like this for a birthday (only engagements, etc.). But that said I don’t think you can go wrong with a bottle of champagne. It’s festive and I feel like even if gifts aren’t expected, it won’t be that weird. Something about bringing a bottle of wine to a bar feels odd though. Too bad you can’t just bring flowers.

      1. I was thinking that it felt odd, but I think it would work if you brought the bottle in a nice gift bag so it was clearly a gift.

    3. I would bring the same level gift as a hostess gift in this case, because that’s essentially what she’s doing here – hosting you and others. A bottle of wine or champagne probably.

    4. As an alternative to wine, maybe you could do something like nice notecards. I always feel weird bringing alcohol to a party at a restaurant/bar, even though it’s exactly what I would bring to a party at someone’s house. Do bring a birthday card at a minimum. I somewhat accidentally showed up empty handed at a birthday party like this a few weeks ago– no gifts was implied from context but not stated on the invite– and I felt like a jerk forgetting a card.

      1. I just had a 40th birthday party for myself (at my house though) and though I specified no gifts, I got quite a few. Lots of wine for sure, but my faves were nice splurgy things I would never have bought myself but love. A new yoga mat and towel, a Swell water bottle, etc.

        You can’t go wrong with wine/ champagne, though the bar aspect does throw a bit of a wrinkle into it. If it was in a gift bag, though, I feel like it would be less weird.

        Got plenty of just birthday cards too, which were awesome and thoughtful. And I thought nothing less of the people who brought nothing.

  6. So if Classiques Entier jumped off a bridge, would you? Sorry I couldn’t resist :)
    But really I don’t know that I get this logic. Also the CE exposed zipper is at least a bit more muted. I just cant with this trend (clutches pearls)

    1. hahaha

      Yeah, I will continue to boycott this look. I don’t care if the Duchess of Cambridge finally wore one the other month. I just think it’s fug.

    2. I saw a gorgeous CE ponte dress on sale last night and was about to buy it when I saw the exposed zipper. It went the entire length of the dress. I just can’t go with it. I’ve avoided it entirely and refuse to stop now. The front of the dress looked great though!

      1. An exposed zipper at the top of a dress is one thing. An exposed zipper ALL THE WAY DOWN seems a) excessive and b) uncomfortable!

        2. I don’t like the look of exposed zippers but even if it were hidden a zipper the entire length of the dress would be uncomfortable and lump-creating. Do not at all get this trend.

      2. Agree. This is a non-starter for me. Also, as to today’s dress, that neckline would look terrible underneath a blazer, so that’s two strikes against this. Why buy dresses that look bad under blazers? I can’t wear this to court so what’s the point. If I wanted something sexy, this would still not be it. So it’s an in-between – not appropriate for anything I can think of in my life. Might be good for someone in a creative field, just not me.

        1. Yes, but Kat features clothes for a variety of levels of formality. So there will certainly be items that are a miss in your workplace and a hit in others. For me, barring the full length exposed zipper, this is perfect – I rarely wear blazers and feel a dress looks more polished than skirt and top separates.

  7. My husband has left me. He moved out a few days ago saying he needs to be on his own to figure out what he wants. He is saying it isn’t permanent (necessarily?) but I have a bad feeling that it is. I’m in shock, even though I did know at some points in the past that he wasn’t 100% happy. I was still “all in” and had no interest in separating. What’s especially confusing to me is that we were about to buy a house, which was his idea. We were about to finalize everything, but something seemed off to me, so I started asking questions, which led to this. We don’t have kids.

    He says there isn’t anyone else, and I’m inclined to believe that, but I’m also so shocked that I feel like nothing could surprise me now.

    I could really use some perspective, especially from those of you who have been there. I don’t have any friends who have had this experience. I don’t feel like making any moves right now, and we have a counseling appointment in a few weeks. I’m very disappointed and angry, but I don’t want to do anything on impulse. I’m also still very confused.

    All I have done so far is set aside a good chunk of money in a personal account, in case things really go south (our finances are otherwise combined and nothing shady has been going on financially). I am also considering moving, though I can shoulder the rent on my own if I need to. I actually live in an area where we moved for his job, but it turns out that I like it here a lot and have found community, which doesn’t happen easily for me, so offhand I am thinking I won’t leave town–though that too could change. I don’t love the idea of running into him if we end up divorcing, especially since I assume he will be dating here.

    What to do/not to do?

    1. I don’t really have any advice, but I just want to say you sound remarkably level-headed about this whole situation and I think you’re doing all the right things with the counseling and not making any rash decisions, while still taking steps to protect yourself. So sorry you’re going through this and lots of hugs.

    2. Call a divorce lawyer. Immediately. Your husband has left you and you are getting a divorce, whether or not either of you is ready to use that word. Get sound legal advice about your money and your living situation. And then get a therapist. Not couples counseling, just for you.

      1. I disagree. I have friends who legally separated and got back together. I realize that is not the norm, and it is probably statistically unlikely that OP and her husband will reunite and live happily ever after, but getting lawyers involved will take any chance of that happening off the table. While I agree she should have her eyes wide open to the possibility (probability, even) that they will get divorced, it’s not unreasonable or naive for her to want to go to counseling with her husband and see if this can be worked out.

        1. Not really. She can call a lawyer and say we might reconcile, I don’t want to do anything official, but I set aside some of our money in a personal account and I’m thinking of moving out of our apartment- what do I need to be aware of.

          1. Fair enough. I don’t object to the advice to just consult with a lawyer, but I didn’t agree with the way Anon at 9:59 stated it, i.e. in no uncertain terms “you are getting a divorce” and urging her just to go to individual therapy instead of couples counseling. Taking on that mindset immediately might be the best for protecting her assets, but it would remove the possibility of reconciliation.

        2. I don’t agree with “you are getting a divorce,” but I do agree that Monday should consult a lawyer, to find out what her options are, legally, during this time period – there are probably more things she can do now (besides the separate bank account) to protect herself and her interests if the whole thing goes totally south, and probably also some things she is maybe not currently aware of that she *shouldn’t* do, because they could come back to bite her.

          Monday, get a legal consult – it does not mean you are getting a divorce, and it could help you navigate logistics during what is undoubtedly a tricky time period. And also, I’m really, really sorry – internet hugs if you’d like them.

          1. +1 million. You really need to have a handle on your finances here, regardless of what happens long-term.

      2. I do also have my own therapist, and agree that’s important. He’s seeing a therapist too. Therapy all around.

      3. I would still talk to a lawyer even if you aren’t sure you are getting divorced. I’ve been in your situation, and things can get ugly very quickly. You will want to know what your rights are with respect to joint accounts and access to a formerly shared home.

    3. Oh Monday. I’m so sorry. That is one hell of a shock. I hope you get some answers. Is it possible that buying the house freaked him out more than he let on? As someone in the process of making a similar commitment, I can tell you I am finding it surprisingly difficult to deal with. Maybe more so than having a kid, for some strange reason.

      It sounds like you are doing all the right things. I would add to it that you should probably talk to a lawyer just to figure out what next steps you will have if this does head to divorce. Are you still in NY? Do you need a recommendation? I’m sure someone here can assist, wherever you are.

      Setting aside money is good. Not having children or a house to divide is also good in this case. I think if you can remain amicable, divorce doesn’t have to be expensive or difficult, at least as far as the non-emotional stuff goes. The emotional stuff is another story. Make sure you are kind to yourself now and call on your support system to help you with through this process. Post here if you need to vent. Whatever happens, you will get through this.

    4. Advice seems to be to not make any big changes the first year or so after a change like this. So as for where to live, I’d say give it a full year – set a date of Sept. 2017 (or whatever) for you to start considering whether you want to move.

      From closer experience (although not my own), I’d say that the 1-year rule should apply to other things in your life as well – changing jobs, entering new romantic relationships (not dating, but getting engaged/married again), etc.

      Hope this helps. I’m really sorry for what you are going through and am sending you wine and internet hugs.

    5. When my husband decided to move out, there was someone else, although he lied about it for a long time. But also, we had issues. I also started my own bank account and changed my direct deposit to it. I then started figuring out all off the things I was paying for that were essentially his (he was unemployed, but making some money and his braces were on my FSA) and had him reimburse me for that. I stopped paying for anything that was just his. I asked him to go to couples counseling with me, but despite that fact that he *is* a therapist, he decided that it was ok for him to say that he was just done. Ok. So it was therapy for just me. It’s been a while, so I can’t remember everything. In Louisiana, you have to live apart for 6 months before you can file for divorce, so I think I didn’t hire an attorney until a few months later. Be sure to protect your retirement savings in the divorce. That’s a biggie. You don’t want it to hit you when you retire.

    6. Oh Monday, I am so sorry. No advice, just know that this internet stranger is here for you.

    7. So the best thing that you can do is assume, right now, that it’s over. That doesn’t have to be the end result of this, but the sanest path for you is to figure that your gut instinct that this ends in divorce is correct, and start taking steps to protect yourself (in all ways, including emotionally).

      I would definitely say that if you have found community in your town, don’t leave it, at least not now – you only need so many big changes at once, you know? But moving within your town, at least for now, could give you a place that is yours, not a “couple space,” and that could be helpful, emotionally, right now.

      1. Man, I was really hoping you would see this post, cbackson. Thank you. I remember years ago when you went through this and I so admired how you handled it. I want to channel you today. I also want to end up with a life as intentional and happy as yours sounds when I get to the other side of this.

        1. This internet stranger also read Monday’s original post and thought “I hope cbackson is reading today!”

        2. Oh, honey. First off – thank you. That’s really kind of you to say (and nice to hear – I’m having a very work-stress-y day). And second – the women here were a huge, huge help to me as I went through this, and one of the biggest things they did was help me never forget that, even when I didn’t feel like it, there was a future life of happiness and fulfillment ahead of me on the other side of this experience. For what it’s worth, that turned out to be *completely* true for me – and it will be for you as well.

          1. Cbackson, I was also going through a bad breakup years ago and your words were helpful then. I know it is nothing like a divorce, but it is nice to hear kind words from a supportive group.

    8. I have no advice for you, but I’m sorry you’re going through this. Best of luck – you already sound like you’re handling this shock very well.

    9. My husband left in February after threatening to leave for several months. We do have a toddler, which has made things difficult logistically, but I have found more emotional freedom than I originally expected. One thing that I keep reminding myself is that not all of the decisions have to be made today. I can investigate possibilities, but I don’t have to act on them in the immediate future. Instead, I created a timeline of when things had to be handled – when is your lease up? You can make the decision closer to that date. In the meantime, figure out what you can do each day to make your day suck less. Hugs – I know it is incredibly difficult, but you only have to tackle it a few minutes or a few hours at a time when the future seems overwhelming.

    10. Sounds like you are doing everything right, especially putting aside some money. I did that too and my one regret was not putting more money in that account!!

      I can’t tell if you are going to close on the house but of course my advice on that score is “don’t!”

      I kept telling myself “the only way out is through,” and every day I told myself I was closer to it being over, and closer to a new, happier life. It was awful for a while but then it got better and now my life is happy beyond my wildest dreams. That can and will happen for you, too!!

      Big hugs to you!!

      1. Thank you so much to all who replied, including those who just offered sympathy. I’m very grateful to all of you.

        SA, we did not close on the house. Feel like I dodged a bullet there by acting when I did.

        Hugs gladly taken. Thanks to all. I’ll be around I’m sure…

        1. I have no real insight or advice, but many hugs. Actually one piece of advice – Do what makes you feel good, in the moment.
          Take a long bath, read a book, watch some mindless TV, go to the beach, go to a restaurant with outdoor seating and sip a glass of wine and play an online game on your phone! Go for a walk and catch some Pokemons. Do whatever it takes to get a “mental health” day for yourself. Best wishes and one day you will be looking back on yourself and this moment and be happy you got through the rough time!

    11. I was in a similar situation. My husband moved out and wanted to be on his own to figure things out. I was shocked as well, and thankfully no kids either. He did not have anyone else – I am sure of that, so I do know that could definitely be true.

      I’m so sorry that you are going through this. I know it feels like no one else has been there, but we have – there are lots of us who have gone through this. Take care of yourself and make sure you look out for what you need and want.

    13. So sorry, Monday. My husband also left me a few months ago. We literally got in an argument about him texting while I was cleaning the house and asked for help, and he responded by throwing his stuff in trash bags and storming out. After a month and a half, I let him come back, which was a big mistake. We are now getting a divorce and he’s refusing to move out, although we live in separate bedrooms. He spends many nights away from the house, presumably with his new girlfriend. In our state, couples can live together up to and even after getting divorced, so its looking like our landlord (a friend) will have to terminate our lease, formally evict him, and then give me a new, solo lease. UGH!

      My advice:
      1) Go to counseling for yourself: its helped me SO MUCH. We tried a handful of couples therapy, and it was basically all blaming me.
      2) Talk to a lawyer! I spoke with one during our initial separation. She gave me a lot of good information, and she didn’t pressure me at all.
      3) Put money aside. I opened a solo savings account and transferred some money from each direct deposit.
      4) Take him off as your emergency contact: at the therapists, doctor, work, etc. Clearly you can’t count on this person!
      5) Be selfish! This was great advice that I received. You need to look out for yourself. Don’t bend over backwards to accommodate him. He wanted a house, then changed his mind and wants out. He’s thinking of himself and his own needs. You need to, as well. Don’t worry about being the bad guy. You have to advocate for yourself because no one else will.

      Wishing you the best! Hugs from another anonymous Internet stranger!

  8. Vicarious shopping help, please! Looking for a pair of extremely comfortable mid-heeled (2-3″) wedding shoes, preferably wedges and preferably gold. I have less and less patience for uncomfortable shoes these days, and I don’t want to be wincing at my wedding. For a color, gold is my number one choice, though white/ivory is fine, as are navy/dark and red (cranberry-ish). It’s fairly formal and a winter wedding but I would be very happy with open toes or even sandal style as long as they are comfortable. Quite frankly, open toes mean less chance of toe blisters for me!

      2. I bought the Cole Haan Emory wedge at the beginning of this summer and loved them for a lot of weddings- but keep in mind they are a HIGH wedge.

      1. *waits patiently* I ordered a beautiful burgundy louise et cie pumps for autumn and they are both gorgeous and comfortable!

    3. Check out Butter Shoes Jolt Sandal on Amazon. A little lower than you’re looking for (1.5”) and you’ll have to see if they have your size in the color you want. I have a similar style in black and find them very comfortable.

    5. I know you mentioned heels, but I saw some very pretty, festive gold toned flats on the Capitol Hill style blog yesterday that could work for a wedding. A plus is that they are $63!! Link posted below, from Asos.

      http://m.asos.com/us/head-over-heels/head-over-heels-by-dune-lou-lou-embellished-pointed-flat-shoes/prd/6878788?SearchQuery=lou%20lou&clr=Gold&gridcolumn=1&gridrow=1&gridsize=3&iid=6878788&mporgp=L2hlYWQtb3Zlci1oZWVscy9oZWFkLW92ZXItaGVlbHMtYnktZHVuZS1sb3UtbG91LWVtYmVsbGlzaGVkLXBvaW50ZWQtZmxhdC1zaG9lcy9wcm9kLw..&pge=0&pgesize=12&totalstyles=12&utm_source=Affiliate&utm_medium=LinkShare&utm_content=USNetwork.1&utm_campaign=QFGLnEolOWg&link=15&promo=307314&source=linkshare&MID=35719&affid=10607&channelref=Affiliate&pubref=1023&siteID=QFGLnEolOWg-SfuyQLApWXLeyq4tYAfSAA&transaction_id=102442c3cf75553ad01153b23d22ed

    7. Search for Seychelles gold heels. I wore some really gorgeous ones with a 2.5 inch graduated heel with my wedding pants. (not quite a wedge) They were very comfy.

  9. Anyone have any advice?: I’m a runner and last week I oh-so-gracefully went flying around a turn and twisted my ankle. I thought it was a minor sprain but it is still tender to the touch, turning new shades of blue and is sore when I walk (swelling is gone). In addition to being a full-time lawyer, I also have two small kids at home and we have a small farm, so “taking it easy” isn’t exactly easy for me. I loathe going to the doctor and generally tough through most things. When I tried to call for a sports medicine appt, the earliest appointment is Monday (and even then the Dr. is double booked). Do I not even bother? I refuse to go the ER unless a life or limb is at stake. Try and see a family medicine doc sooner? Oh and for fun: I have a crazy work deadline soon, so anytime I take away from work is time that I will be working after the kids go to bed/naptime.

    1. Girl. Stop. Do you want a lifetime of limited mobility because you didn’t take care of yourself? You must rest, ice, and elevate. AND go to the doctor. I’d go to urgent care (not the ER) for this. If that isn’t an option keep the Monday apt but you must spend your weekend on the couch with your foot on a pillow.

      1. I know you think you’re being cute with the “Girl. Stop.” stuff, but it’s not fun or down to earth. In fact, it’s pretty obnoxious. Especially when you feel compelled to do this hack shtick multiple times a day.

        1. Easy there, tiger. It’s friendly vernacular. Anonymous @ 10:03 is A) right and B) expressing the urgent nature of her concern.

          1. I’m not Anon at 10:36 but I don’t think addressing a grown woman as “girl” is friendly or cute.

          2. Anon at 10:36 here. I would never pounce on that language without reason, but this particular poster often uses it to belittle the OP. She’s snarky and rude 90% of the time and loves to announce her presence with “Girl. Stop.” as if that gives her some authority to then accuse the OP of overreacting or being ridiculous in a way that is completely dismissive of whatever OP is clearly concerned enough about to reach out to a bunch of strangers.

          1. You clearly don’t. Because you use that phrase every single day, multiple times a day, despite having been asked to quit being condescending. While this particular post was helpful, typically your responses are demeaning and condescending along the lines of “Girl. Stop. You are totally overreacting and need to get a grip. Figure out your life.”

    2. Any chance there’s an orthopedic urgent care in your area? We have one near us and they’re awesome for stuff like this.

      Alternately, check and see if you can draw the alphabet with your toes. If you can, that’s a good sign you didn’t do anything too serious and it’s just sore because… well… these things hurt. I would make the appointment with the sports medicine doc and cancel if you can. If you experience numbness, shooting pains, or intense swelling in your foot, go to the ER.

      2. I didn’t know those existed!!! And there is one in my small city! Thank you thank you for the suggestion. I’m going to go this afternoon.

        1. Second urgent care! I’ve gone before at lunchtime from work and it only took about 45 mins – 1 hr all in including drive time. If you have insurance it shouldnt be too ridiculously expensive as well. Good luck and take care of yourself.

    3. Rest, Ice, Compression and Elevation is my recipe for sprains. I know rest is hard – but if you can ice and elevate at your desk/watching TV/reading – whatever your sitting down moments are, it will really help. Find a sleeve or wrap an ace bandage as tightly as you can for support and to reduce swelling. At night, prop your foot up on a couple of pillows while you sleep.

      Keep your appointment and make sure you don’t have a tear or something more serious than a sprain. If the swelling/bruising/pain improves over the weekend, you may consider cancelling Monday morning. I don’t think ER is necessary.

      My favorite homemade PT is to write the alphabet with your foot – it should help with stiffness and keep things mobile. But I would wait until you see the doctor and the swelling/bruising starts to dissipate.

      I’m sorry. Sprains can be nasty. Hoping you heal quickly.

    4. Just for frame of reference, I hurt my ankle in May, went to the doctor the next day and was told it was a sprain. Went back in July because it was still swollen and painful. They did more xrays and told me it was actually broken. Attended pt for all of August, but the pain kept getting worst. Saw a top ortho surgeon yesterday. Now I need an MRI and possibly surgery. Go see the doctor and get a second opinion, if you don’t think the diagnosis is correct!

      1. Seconding this. I had a similar experience, turned out to be a hairline fracture, I didn’t do the initial pt bc I thought it was “just a sprain” and wound up with intermittent pain and swelling for over a year afterward.

    5. I sprained by ankle about 3 years ago and figured it was nothing, but it turned out to be a hairline fracture and a serious ligament sprain. I’m a lawyer too, and was in the middle of a busy work season and was moving house, so I slapped on an ankle brace and continued about my business. I ignored my doctor’s recommendations for rest and physiotherapy. My ankle never healed properly, so it continues to be unstable and painful (especially in cold weather and I live in Canada) and has caused a variety of ligament and muscle problems in my leg. I am so angry at myself for ignoring my health like it was a renewable resource.

      Definitely see your family doctor, and then follow his instructions. Your spouse will have to rally (and work will have to deal) if you need to rest.

    6. First, urgent care exists for exactly this reason.

      Acquire crutches and an aircast.

      Let it heal, for f-cks sake. Unhealed sprains mean that you will spend the next fifty years of your life as a former runner and a mom who can’t chase her kids around.

    8. Also a runner. Also recently sprained my ankle, albeit mine is a very minor sprain. Found this article: https://runnersconnect.net/running-injury-prevention/rolled-ankle-pain-runners/

      If you think there’s a chance it may be broken, I’d get an X-ray asap. In my experience is sprained ankles (had another sprain last spring that was much worse) the swelling is the very last thing to go away, so the fact that your swelling is gone, but the pain is still there is a warning sign for me.

      Also, plan on a few weeks of physio therapy. Ankle sprains are notorious for being hard to heal, and take forever. I did too much too soon on my sprain last year and ended up with other overuse injuries. Sucks.

      Good luck!

  10. I broke up with a man I really love because he wouldn’t get badly needed psychological help. (Sometimes he admitted there was a problem but said it was too late or big to solve, sometimes denied anything was wrong, sometimes swore he was working on it his own way, sometimes claimed it was really an asset…awful roller coaster).

    I hoped that the loss of me actually leaving would scare him into realizing he needed help, but of course that didn’t happen.

    I’m so incredibly sad for our relationship and for him personally. I know everyone says the person has to be ready/want to help themselves…but I don’t understand how he can be aware of the suffering he is causing (to himself most of all) and just…ignore it. It seems so impossible to let go and move on, like there has to be something I can do to change things and convince him that his happiness/life are worth fighting for. I know everyone says you can’t get someone to change, but why not? I certainly feel like I’ve changed (even within this particular relationship) when someone pointed out something I was doing that was counterproductive or hurtful/inconsiderate to another person–is this really that unusual?

    I feel like I’m being dense, but is it really true that most people don’t/won’t change, even when the thing they refuse to try to change is making them really unhappy? And if so…why? I know this is conventional wisdom, but I feel like I am having some kind of mental block preventing me from understanding.

    1. People can change if they want to. This man does not or cannot want to. Maybe he’s glad you’re gone and didn’t put in the effort to change because keeping you wasn’t important. (Harsh? Hell’s yeah. You need to get the message somehow). Maybe his mental health challenges make getting help a challenge.

      Have you considered that it’s actually really hard to change who you are? I have a bad temper. Have had since I was a tiny tot. I valiantly work to fix it and change because I really really want to change, but it’s still hard.

      1. Well, I don’t think he was glad to see me go, exactly, but it certainly wasn’t a great sign that he either couldn’t or didn’t want to do the things I considered to be making a good-faith attempt to fix things.

    2. I’m so sorry. It sounds like you did the right thing for you and for your future.

      I’ve been there and had a hard time understanding this, too. Therapy helped me understand his pattern and reluctance better. I had a hard time with the idea that he couldn’t figure out these changes and do better. But therapy helped me understand that not all people get their “stuff” together. That’s bizarre to people like us, but it’s true for some people. That part isn’t about you. It’s a him thing. And since that doesn’t fit your outlook on life, you did the right thing.

      1. Exactly. Like, my ex could have fixed his toxic relationship with his parents. But he didn’t want to. At the end of the day, he didn’t care about me more than them and didn’t want to change to keep me. Objectively, I might be right and he might be wrong, but there is no objective ruler in relationships.

      2. Thanks. :( Yeah, I really identify with your last paragraph. What role did therapy play in helping you understand? (I’ve not done it before.) I can read those words and nod along that “yes, for whatever reasons not everyone can get their stuff together”, and see in real life many examples of that being true…but it’s really hard to accept that deep down in my heart.

    3. The only person that you can control is yourself, which is really what it all comes down to. You cannot force someone to change or say magic words that will make them want to change. A desire to change one’s life has to come from that person.

      I’m going to go out on a limb and say that depression may be playing a role here (on his part), and part of depression is the feeling that things will not get better and that there is no hope for improvement. Depression also zaps a person’s executive functioning and ability to plan and take steps for improvement. Depression is a mean, nasty jerk who lies to the person. To me, your words sound like a person who is not depressed looking in on someone who is. And it is so incredibly hard to fathom what the other person’s world looks like. You cannot rescue him from this, and nothing you can do would make it better. You made the hard, right call.

      1. Thanks. I think a big part of it is I wish I could rescue him (or that he could rescue himself), and I also agree that I don’t understand what things look like inside his head.

        I would really like those magic words, though. :(

      2. Betty, your first line is something I wish I understood sooner in my life about relationships (especially romantic ones). It really is so important and yet so hard to live by at the same time.

    4. “I feel like I’m being dense, but is it really true that most people don’t/won’t change, even when the thing they refuse to try to change is making them really unhappy? And if so…why?”

      On some level, people don’t know any better – like, if you’ve been unhappy and depressed since you were a teenager, being unhappy and depressed is just the state of affairs, and combine that lack of knowledge about/connection with how good “the other side” can be with the general lies depression tells you (that you can’t do things, that things are too hard and not worth it, that you are not worth it), and you have someone who can’t and/or won’t do the work to change because everything is and always will be terrible and trying to change it is too difficult and also pointless.

      Also, some mental health problems are, essentially, coping mechanisms gone awry – i.e. kid with out of control parents learns to be hyper-controlling to protect him/herself from parents’ abuse/neglect, or kid with out of control parents learns that being similarly or more out of control is the only way to get attention, etc. On some level, the person acting out is getting something – attention, satisfaction, emotional release, (false) feeling of safety/security, etc. – out of the maladaptive behavior.

      Some people realize that the thing that they’re getting is not enough, and seek professional help to correct the maladaptive behavior, but for other people, the “hit” of whatever they need from the maladaptive behavior is just enough to keep them from ever feeling like they “need” to change, because change is hard and scary and the version of life they’re currently living is “good enough” to continue the bad patterns, because there’s not real faith in/connection to the idea that things could be any better than they are.

      1. I really agree with all of this.

        I also don’t think it’s a matter of “don’t/won’t” so much as it’s a matter of “can’t.”

        My first husband had terrible anxiety and depression that didn’t respond to the treatments available at the time. My second husband had a personality disorder, one of the symptoms of which was that he didn’t think there was anything wrong with him. In the first case I don’t think it was possible for him to pull himself out of it, and in the second case, well, I guess it was a “don’t/won’t” but really that was part of the pathology so it was also a “can’t.”

        I’m so sorry you had to make this difficult choice. But it was the wise one. You certainly can’t change him and you don’t have to volunteer for a lifetime on his rollercoaster.

        1. Thanks for the support. I hope I’m as happy as you are on the other side.

    5. Please understand that this has nothing to do with his feelings for you. It sounds like your SO is depressed? Depression can make people believe that nothing can help and that even trying is worthless.

      1. Depressive, at least, though there may be more going on than that (not a psychiatrist and not my problem anymore, I guess). Anyway, thanks.

    6. I have so much sympathy for you. I’ve posted here occasionally about my recent divorce from a man who suffered from severe depression and gave up on getting any help. In the end, I could not stay in a relationship with someone who had no desire to help himself feel better. Depression was the main culprit, but it fed upon a cynical streak in his personality and his fundamentally bleak view of the world. He didn’t want to hurt me, but in a weird way he was acting in a way that was true to himself. In the end I just had to acknowledge that we were incompatible, it wasn’t going to change, and the only way to forge happiness for myself was to leave. For a long time I felt tremendously guilty, but now I feel completely at peace with my decision.

      1. Thanks…in a weird way I think mine is acting true to himself, too. I’m glad you feel at peace with the decision and hope I eventually will as well.

  11. Yay — I found a pair of skinny jeans I love after years of looking. My work shoes are all block heels and off duty I like birkenstock arizonas (with socks) or western boots, all of which strike me as totally wrong. She suggestions or links please (my friends wear spiky heels, but I’m looking for other options). Thanks!

    2. Maybe try a pair of flat booties, or wedge booties or block heel booties. To get ideas, Go to Nordstrom, search for booties, and re-sort for ones wth highest ratings.

    3. I totally wear my skinny jeans with western-style boots. I figured the whole point of skinny jeans was to wear them with boots :)

    4. Skinny jeans have been so ubiquitous for so long that you can wear just about anything with them – though that can make it even harder! I especially like an interesting sneaker or a block-heeled bootie.

      1. Levis curvy skinny. Gap used to make them but stopped. I also have some jeggings / very stretchy Tractor skinnies, but I feel very exposed in them (but they fit perfectly for what they are).

  12. I just got my law school student loans under 49K. I’m just sick of these mf-ers. (and very eloquent).

    who will join me in throwing a gratuitous $50 or $100 at Mohela or whatever debt service is currently holding you hostage for a mistake you made when you were 22?

    1. I just threw in an extra payment earlier this week so I could declare that I finally cross the less than 6 figure threshold with mine! And I’m horrified that this is the excitement in my life.

      1. Hooray for you and OP! Nothing to be horrified about here that I can see – you’re both making progress on a huge, important goal and making an extra push towards freedom, and that’s exciting. Even to this random stranger on the internet. So I say, three cheers for you both!

    4. Go you! Making progress! Mohela is getting my $60 extra payment this week. Not as much as I’d have liked, but overtime has been slim lately and 2 weeks on vacation didn’t help.

    5. I don’t see why it is a mistake you made if you are able to pay it back now.

      Congrats!

      1. Eyeroll. We get it. You love Big Law and being a lawyer. Congrats. Lots of people don’t, and there are plenty of people who are perfectly able to gradually pay down their debt who still consider law school a huge mistake.

        1. eyeroll on you – alanna literally just wrote a sentence. you have to jump down her throat for that?

    6. Hooray!

      I am taking one night class at a community college and apparently that is enough to put my loans in deferment for two years!

      Even though I technically don’t have to continue paying every month, I am still making the payment.

      Because of the subsidized/unsubsidized mix, my interest rate is 33% less! My student loans are on sale!

  13. Have any plus sized ladies with an extreme apple shape found any jeans that work? I am (in all serious, I am not joking) a bowling ball on stilts. I have no hips or butt to speak of. I recently transitioned to a significantly more casual office. Casual as in the men who don’t go to meetings wear shirts with sayings on them. So I need a really good pair(s?) of jeans. Skinny jeans exaggerate the bowling ball effect, so I am looking for straight or boot cut jeans. The stretchier they are the better they tend to fit me. Does anything under $100 fit this bill? I would go up to $150 if they were a magical unicorn pair of pants.

    1. Vera Wang jeans from Kohls. Seriously, you can get them for less that $50, they come in a variety of leg styles with dark washes. My sister is an apple, and I joke I am an apple with a butt, and they work equally well for both of us.

      1. I’ve had a pair of Vera Wang skinny jeans that have lasted for three years. I think I got them on clearance for about $15. Cost per wear is probably in fractions of pennies by now.

    2. Kind of a weird recommendation, but there is this writer on Buzzfeed who has that exact body type and she does all these fashion articles/reviews. Kirsten? Kristen? Check out buzzfeed and do a search. She is the apple-ist apple I’ve seen.

      1. It’s Kristin Chirico. She is fantastic. Her body conference is awesome and her photos are gorgeous and she’s funny. Love her.

  14. I was thinking that I’m not a runner. But I have liked sports where you sprint for a bit (tag, soccer, hockey, lacrosse, tennis, even basketball). Tennis is the only thing that has carried over into adulthood (mainly my being busy and in my 40s). I have tried running. It is soooo boring to me. Even run/walking — just didn’t work. I am inspired by Usain Bolt being a runner who does not run distances. Is sprinting / track for Older Grownups a thing? I could probably do that. But where? Sprinting at home seems weird. Go to a track? It seems so random and odd, but I want to see if there are other people who run, but just a little bit at a time.

    1. There are local rec leagues in my city – maybe check if there’s something similar close to you? I remember my mom playing in a 40+ volleyball league for a while. Some of those large “healthplexes” attached to or affiliated with hospitals have leagues, too.

      If your local schools have open hours at the track, I bet you’ll see people doing all kinds of speed work there, including sprints.

      1. I don’t even know what speed work is. Are their trainers who can just show you what you *should* do? I feel like I’d know this if I had run track ever, but I didn’t do that. Or does just one show up and then dash around, then stop, and then run up and down the stadium, and then stop, and then dart out again? It’s so much easier in context — run after the ball, run after the ball again, run to the ball, run again.

        1. Yeah, I’d look for a run club. Many have track workouts; you could skip the “regular” runs and just go to the track days.

        2. Check out some of the runners world content / some of their track / speed workouts might appeal to you. They have some programs for race training – you might like some of the shorter ones (look at the FIRST series for races ie first half marathon etc). This is actually probably a more effective / efficient way to work out (track ladders anybody?).

          You don’t definitively need a track to do these workouts / sprints. For sprints do repeats for 15 – 30 seconds with 1-2 minutes in between. For 400s / 800s / ladders, you can either use a GPS watch or the Nike run app which will track distance. If you’ve got a low traffic loop in your neighborhood or any park really that would work. For reference when I lived in New York I did all my speedwork on the west side hwy run path because it was straight and no traffic…

          If you like sprinting and need to be indoors you also might like HIIT workouts where you get a lot of the same effects of sprinting (not quiiite as good but close). I like some youtube resources for this – my favorite is a channel called FitnessBlender (they’ve got a website too where you can search by workout type). Check out HIIT like a girl for a 22 minute quick hard workout. They also have HIIT workouts modeled on track ladders but using high knees / etc type of exercises

          Also if you get really aggressive check out challenge #3 in the below hooo boy something to strive for!
          http://www.bornfitness.com/the-david-beckham-cardio-workout-that-will-make-you-drop/

        3. Yes, go to a track during their open hours. Each lap of a ‘real’ track is 1/4 mile (400 meters). Try this: run, at a normal or slower pace, a mile to two miles to warm up. Go to where the curve ends and the straight begins. Sprint/run the straight part, stop where the curve begins (that’s 100 meters). Jog or walk around the curve. Repeat as many times as you want. You can also run 1/2 of the track (just continue around the curve until it’s straight again) or 300 meters (straight, curve, and straight) or whole 400 meters. Then cool down with jogging. It’s a great workout, enjoy!

          Track etiquette is that the slower people are in the outside lanes, fast people on the inside. If someone yells ‘track!!’ at you while running toward you, they are telling you to get out of the lane where they are running faster, and asking (telling) you to move to a more outside lane.

        4. I think you can find example workouts at the Runner’s World website. But if you just want to sprint, rest, and sprint again, I don’t think people would bat an eye. Hill sprints are good, too.

    2. In my city there is a running group that is specifically dedicated to sprinting. Some distance runners drop in just for their once a week speed work, but I think it’s also a fair amount of people who just prefer to run hard and short. Maybe there’s something like that where you are?

      If not, don’t feel weird about going to a track and doing whatever sprints you like! There are of course the casual lap-walkers at my track, but the majority are people who are there specifically to do measured speed workouts without having to stop at intersections or dodge dog leashes and strollers on their regular running trails.

      And generally speaking, there’s a speedendurance spectrum of runners. Of course for one runner, their endurance pace may be faster than another’s speed pace. But a lot of runners find they prefer one over the other, and tend to perform better at certain race distances. I.e., if you were to take a marathon time and convert it to equivalent shorter distance paces using the McMillan formula, some runners will never be able to run the supposed equivalent 5k (which might be at a pace 2-3min/mi faster than their marathon), because they’re better at longer distance and don’t have the top-end speed that the calculators presume. Others have a 5k that should project to a marathon an hour faster than they’ve ever run one, because they just don’t do distance. It’s different for everybody, so don’t think you’re random or odd! I’m personally on the endurance end of the spectrum and am in such awe of the people in my group who do shorter distances and crank out a sub 6:00 pace in a 5k!

    3. A park near me has a nice loop in the middle of a meadow, I like to go there for speed work. What that means to me is that I run fast for 1 minute then run slow for 1 minute, 10 times.

      That is one of the workouts prescribed for me by the kinetic gps training app. I like to use the app since it gives me some structure. otherwise I would never do speed work, just leisurely runs of about half an hour.

    4. There are regularly adults doing speed work on the local middle and high school tracks near me. Later in the evening after the student’s football practice or whatever. If you’re looking for community, I’m not sure whether they talk to each other or are all there independently, but it’s definitely a thing people do!

  15. Reposting because got stuck in moderation last night. I’ve observed that we may have a good group of regular posters living in the Atlanta area. Anyone else interested in a meetup?

    2. Aw, sweet!! Attiredattorney replied to yesterday’s late comment, so we have critical mass of 4. What are good neighborhoods? Days/times? After we iron out some of the particulars I will take it offline into email…

      1. My schedule is likely more flexible than others, a weeknight could work for me. Presumably most of us work in the Midtown area? There are good options in Midtown, Virginia Highlands. Ponce City Market is fun too (The Mercury has all day happy hour on Mondays!)

  16. I’m having issues with my younger sister. For the sake of anonymity, I won’t go into examples, but my whole family agrees she fits the definition of little “n” narcissistic pretty closely. She moved to my city 1.5 years ago and since then has relied on me for a variety of things: looking for apartments; moving; reviewing and explaining important documents like leases and student loan agreements/correspondence; looking for jobs; grocery shopping; dinners when she’s not shopped or is bored/lonely; sleepovers when she’s bored/lonely; rides to and from our hometown. It’s become increasingly tiresome because she does not thank me for any of these things, and frequently complains to family members about the way in which I do these things for her.

    I’ve reached a breaking point recently. In the span on one week I spent 3 evenings and one weekend day with her getting a variety of things done for her. I then heard from two family members that she was complaining about me, saying I was mean and only cared about myself, amoungst other things. Since then, I’ve had a strong aversion to seeing or speaking with her, and have avoided doing both.

    I won’t be able to see my therapist until October, but my parents are already asking me about my plans for coming home at (Canadian) Thanksgiving. At the moment, I don’t want to go home as my sister will be there, but don’t know how to broach it with my family.

    Advice? Thoughts? A more moderate third option that I can’t see because I’m upset?

    1. You seem to be going from one extreme (doing whatever your sister asks you to do, even when she’s unappreciative and mean about it) to another extreme (not even going home to see your family for a holiday just because she’ll be there). Can you find a middle ground by cutting back your one-on-one interactions with her and not helping her out if she’s nasty to you, but still going to visit your family for Thanksgiving? You have my sympathies. My husband’s sister is a lot like yours, but thankfully she lives far away so we don’t really have to interact with her except at holidays.

      1. Right. Like, what?!! You’ve been buying another adult her groceries? You’ve been making sure she eats?!? You are a major part of this problematic dynamic. The problem isn’t that she doesn’t say thank you. The problem is that you do these things at all. Where is your own life? Don’t throw up your hands and create a big drama over Thanksgiving when what you really need to do is start saying “sorry, I’m busy, can’t keep buying your groceries”, “oh you don’t have anything for dinner? That’s too bad.”

        1. I totally agree, but my sister made a suicide threat when she was a teenager that had positive results for her in terms of getting her out of a variety of things she was finding difficult, and now she continues to use the same language around every day things like grocery shopping (e.g. “I don’t have any food in my house and I just feel like life isn’t worth living”). If I ignore these comments or tell her not to liken grocery shopping to a life-or-death situation, she calls one of my parents, amps up the threats and they call me hysterical asking me to help sister, see sister, make sure sister is okay. In that context, it has been very hard for me not to do those things.

          1. Oof, that’s a really tough dynamic. If you haven’t already, check out the Reddit group “Raised by Narcissists.” Most of the experiences people share involve narcissistic parents, but there’s plenty about other family members, too, and lots of useful ideas for creating boundaries. Good luck!

          2. Captain Awkward (captainawkward[dot]com) has really helpful advice and scripts for dealing with family systems like yours. Your behavior here (and your parents’) is as much a problem as your sister’s and you know darned well you are (all) enabling her.

            OP, I am sure your sister’s threats feel very scary in the moment, and dealing with your parents’ hysteria is no doubt incredibly hard, but you are at least 50% of the problem here, and until you figure out how to, metaphorically speaking, drop your end of this twisted, messed-up rope, you are not going to be able to get what you want here (a peaceful, adult relationship with your sister, I assume).

            You don’t have to go to Thanksgiving if you don’t want to, but it feels like your reason for not going basically boils down to wanting to get your own needs acknowledged by creating a giant emotional mess (which, apparently, works really well in your family for getting needs acknowledged, if your sister is any indication). That’s a terrible reason to do something.

          3. KKH, I am earnestly trying to figure out how to “drop my end of this twisted, messed up rope” and , acknowledging that I’ve not been able to talk through this with my therapist yet, all I can think of for now is to distance myself from my sister and my parents. I’d also like to have the time and energy to focus on my job, husband, other siblings, friends, and in-laws which all make me very happy.

          4. Pretty much every time she does this your response needs to consistently be:

            Feeling like life isn’t worth living because you don’t have groceries is not normal or health. The problem isn’t a lack of groceries, it’s mental health. Here is the [relevant mental health number] and you could also make an appointment with your family physician to discuss.

            Repeat every time she does this. Buying her groceries doesn’t fix this – even if she has legit mental health issues.

          5. Anonymous at 2:38, sister does have scheduled individual therapy and group therapy, but does not attend.

            I’m able to (and do) tell my sister I can’t get her groceries, or see an apartment with her, or have her over for dinner, but it is more difficult for me to say no to my parents, who live far away and call my crying and hysterical because my sister has threatened to kill herself.

          6. Have you tried framing it for your parents as affecting your own health? You said you’ve reached a breaking point recently. Your health is not less important than your sister’s.

            “Mom/Dad I want to support sister but I need to take care of my own health too. I’m very affected by the stress of this situation and can’t continue how things have been so far. Her therapist’s number is —. Perhaps you can discuss strategies with the therapist.”

    2. For me, trying to establish boundaries with my narcissistic sister would work for awhile, and then things would get worse again. I have no further interest in perpetuating this toxic cycle, so I just absent myself from many family get togethers. Instead I have started planning vacations during public holidays. I make an extra effort to see and spend time with my other family members at other times, so I’m not at all cutting back on family time. But I can’t be around her, and neither can my SO. I’m an atheist so things like Christmas hold no inherent spiritual meaning for me, and skipping them is not a big deal for me.

      Not saying that’s what you need to do in your specific situation, but it has certainly worked for me.

      1. +100000000000. Learning (and still mastering) setting boundaries with narcissistic family members has been a lifeline. Especially balancing cutting time with narcissist while making an effort to not cut time with rest of the family. It takes a lot of work, but so so so worth it.

    3. She sounds immature. You may need to have a conversation with her about why her comments are rude, because she doesn’t get it. Definitely don’t stay away, but avoid doing all that stuff for her in the future. There is a middle ground.

    4. Please buy the book “Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.” It will change your life.

      Signed, someone whose life it changed.

    5. Great advice here! I, too, had a younger brother following this pattern. After paying his cell, giving him my old car, paying the insurance and always making sure he had food…I was just done. I cut off the financial / stuff support, and then he turned into an emotional vampire. This ended in a total cut off of all contact / me blocking him from my cell phone last Memorial Day weekend.

      Read the books mentioned here, they are great. If, eventually, the only answer is to slow fade the relationship or even just give it a time out for six months or so, I think you’ll see how much it impacts your own well-being. This indefinite time out I have my brother in has really been wonderful for my mental health!

      1. Thanks, SoCalAtty. I remember reading yours posts a while back and thinking it was awful, and now I know just how much!

    6. Daughter of a narcissist and an enabler here.

      I have been through several periods of low or even no contact with my parents over the years. Sometimes I need to take a huge step back. Even during the “OK” times, I am cognizant that it will all blow up again one day.

      I am very familiar with the gaslighting and the being painted as a “bad daughter”, too. I’ve had to learn to not care about that.

      No advice, except that you need to realize this is about her, not about you.

      And, big cyber hugs to you.

    7. Give her the suicide hotline number. If she is suicidal she can call it. If she is threatening suicide to manipulate you into buying her groceries, f*ck that.

  17. Don’t skip out on family time just to avoid your sister. Instead try establish boundaries with her. You can tell her that you have other plans when she wants you to help her. She doesn’t have to know that you’ll be busy watching netflix on the couch.

  18. Related to the jackets thread above and trends discussion from the recent past:

    What do you think the remaining shelf life is on moto-style jackets? Not necessarily all the extra moto details like extra zippers and bling, but just something like a ponte jacket with the diagonal zipper for casual wear? I have one I got at the end of last year that I like, but I’m debating on another one and I’m wondering if I’ll get much wear out of it beyond this year.

    I’m not trying to come off as super of the moment on trend, I’m just wondering if they’ll look totally out of date and just kind of “off” in a year or two. I live in an area where trends take a while to actually take root, so I tend to get comfortable with whatever the fashion of the moment is right at the tail end of. Case in point: I finally gave up and bought skinny pants/jeans, only to have the next season be the one where wider legs and boot cut came back around to the mainstream, not just end high fashion (although it took another year or two for them to be stocked in stores around where I live).

    1. I wore a ponte moto jacket with a diagonal zipper yesterday! Biz casual office, located in Middle America where we’re behind the trends. I think if it’s pretty simple, it’ll be versatile and not scream 2015. But I’m not giving up my skinny jeans any time soon, so I may not be the best adviser on this. :)

      1. I think we live in the same state pugsnbourbon! I am so happy to be in a place that is a little behind the trends. They can take take my moto jackets and skinny jeans and knee high boots from my cold dead hands :)

    2. You will have to pry my moto jackets out of my cold, dead hands. (LOL typed this before looking at Anonymous at 11:41 above!)

      I bought a white boucle moto style suit jacket from J Crew this summer and wore the heck out of it and plan to wear it next year, too. I feel like they’re pretty standard at this point.

  19. A friend and her 13 year old daughter are moving to NYC soon. The kid is pretty distraught about the move. I’d like to get both of them, either jointly or individually, a little something to celebrate the new life they’re starting. Suggestions?

    1. So we moved when I was 7 and again when I was 12, and 12 year old me definitely told my parents “you ruined my life!” A few weeks later, I was fine :) 12/13 = an age where everything is a big freaking deal. I’m not sure that a gift is going to make her feel better, but it’s a nice thought!

    2. Is the daughter (or friend) interested in any particular thing that you can pinpoint – like, art, history, Broadway, music, food, clothes?

    3. What does she like? Dance? any fav tv shows that tape in nyc? Her interests would really drive this for me. If she loves dance then tickets to the ballet might be great or if she loves a certain talk show that tapes in nyc – tickets to a taping?

    4. When you say NYC, do you mean the 5 boroughs or a suburb of NYC? If it’s the actual city, unless they are wealthy and will be moving into a huge luxury apartment — don’t buy them stuff. It’s an unsaid NYC rule — we don’t give stuff for weddings, celebrations etc. even if it’s nice stuff bc it is typically an annoyance for a person with a regular apartment who doesn’t have room for additional unnecessary things like you do in a suburban single family home. So if you want to get her something — a gift card so she can go shopping in NYC once she sees what kids are wearing at her new school? Some kind of experience gift like passes to Chelsea Piers – esp if she’s the sporty type?

      1. They’re looking in Brooklyn or Queens. I don’t think they understand yet how much stuff they’re going to have to get rid of. So I definitely wasn’t going to give them stuff. I was initially thinking a Birchbox subscription for the daughter but I’m not sure if that’s even popular with her age group, and I think maybe something more NYC-specific would be better. I don’t really know her that well except that she’s into hair and makeup (and mom’s supportive). I like the idea of tickets to something.

    5. My in-laws live in NYC and we got them this, which was a big hit: http://www.cityshuffle.com/?view=shop&categoryid=&productid=95
      Depends on the kid whether she’d be into that, but I know some 13-year-olds who like going out to try new restaurants. Otherwise, I’d vote for a museum membership or something like that. I agree with the “don’t give stuff” comments. Nobody in NYC has any space!

  20. Do you mean they are moving into the 5 boroughs or a suburb of NYC? If it’s an actual city apartment move, unless they are wealthy and going to a huge apartment, I’d refrain from buying stuff. It’s an annoyance in NYC when someone gets you some cute trinket and you have no place to put it. So if she’s going to the city — gift cards for shopping once she sees what kids in her new school are wearing? Experience type thing like Chelsea Piers passes if she’s the sporty type?

  21. I am feeling sad today about all the BS, misogyny etc in my field today.
    Probably sparked by a couple of things, like the article about female Obama staffers supporting each other by “amplifying” that was referenced yesterday. There are so few women that, depending on the meeting, there is often only me.
    And, then, senior management keep saying that they need more women but I’ve been doing this 15+ years and the numbers are the same (proportionately). They absolutely have no plan whatsoever to change the culture either.

    1. Hang in there. You being there matters.

      I went to a CLE today and one of the judges was one of the few female judges on the appeal court in my area. Was totally tempted to thank her for just being on the bench – makes the path seem possible.

  22. Rag and bone booties– are they worth the $500? Thats more than I’d usually spend on 2-3 pairs of shoes, but Ive convinced myself I’d wear them all winter in DC. Can anyone speak to comfort/wearability/durability? I like the harrow in black leather.

    1. I would love to see the answer to this! I’ve been lusting over Rag and Bone booties for years…

    2. I have them in black leather and in camel suede. I purchased the black leather pair first and they were comfortable for the first 6 months – 1yr. So much so I bought the second pair. I’ve worn them in the black leather much more often and they still look relatively new after 4+ years of wear in a forgiving climate, but now every time I wear that particular pair they just don’t seem to offer anywhere near as much support or stability, and I end up with pain in my legs after I’ve worn them. Also, the black pair in particular have a narrower fit/look imo, and I’ve decided they don’t go all that well with the pants I own. I’ve seen them styled with dresses/skirts but when I’ve tried those looks they look odd on me. Maybe that’s more of a wardrobe issue and not a boot issue overall. Regardless, I’ve been avoiding wearing them for a bit (and I can’t seem to find where I put the camel ones which I still like quite a bit). Overall, I’m glad I have them, will keep them, and I do intend to start wearing them again if I can get my wardrobe issues together. But I probably wouldn’t rush to purchase those particular ones in the black leather again and might shop around to see what other brands have to offer first.

    3. I say yes. I own a three-year-old pair of black leather Newburys, at the time of purchase I’d never spent that much on a pair of shoes before. I love them and probably wear them 100 days of the year, and they still look new. My cobbler said he’ll be able to fix just about anything that ever happens to them. I take them in for waterproofing at the beginning of fall, and then at the end of snow season for desalting/cleaning. I live in a snowy midwestern city. I don’t mind walking distances in them, but I do like that the Harrow is a little shorter if you’re going to be walking a ton. The leather sole can be slippery, your cobbler can fix that if it’s a problem for you.

  23. Another move question. :)
    Anyone have cross country mover recommendations? Also for cars?

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