Thursday’s Workwear Report: Flutter-Sleeve Split-Neck Top

281 Comments

1. Any good resources (books, podcast etc) on gardening dynamics in couples? The act itself is good/enjoyable but after 6 years together we’ve developed patterns of who initiates and how that we should probably work to break out of.

   1. The podcast Pillow Talks (hosted by s3x therapist Vanessa Marin and her husband) has at least one episode addressing initiation dynamics. Maybe a low-stakes starting point for some ideas.

   2. Esther Perel was always the expert name I heard here…

      1. Second Esther Perel. It’s about relationships in general but some are very gardening specific. I don’t always agree 100% but she is good at making people rethink and deconstruct certain dynamics.

2. I know I should know this, but I don’t. I missed a credit card payment by one day in April because I thought I was enrolled in autopay and I wasn’t. I called and they were able to reverse the ~$50 in interest charges but not the late payment fee. The late payment fee was only $20 so not that big a deal. But I just had my May statement close and I got charged $150 (!!) in interest. They say they can’t reverse this, because it’s a one-time courtesy. I paid my May statement in full on the due date, so this must somehow be a holdover from April. Am I going to continue to be charged interest based on the missed payment in April? What do I have to do to stop it?

   1. **ETA: My May statement that just closed is due in June and hasn’t been paid yet. I should say I paid my May bill in full on the due date (last week).

      1. This is a tangent, but do most people wait til the due date to pay? Is that the default for autopay? That would make me nervous about mistakes – what if my account didn’t have enough in it, and the payment didn’t go through and then you’d be late. (We keep our checking balance low so we can be earning more interest in a high yield savings.)

         I tend to sit down at the end of the month, review all my statements and then pay mortgage and all the bills. It helps me feel more proactive in preventing mistakes.

         1. I have all my autopays set one day before the due date. I see why paying on the due date is a bit risky, but I don’t know why you’d pay several weeks early and give them an interest-free loan.

            1. It’s not an interest free loan, it’s paying your bill. And if something goes wrong, like with OP, you risk paying much more in interest than you would have earned for an extra week in your savings account…and if it’s sitting in your checking account in preparation for autopay, it isn’t making any interest, btw

            2. yeah, you are not giving the bank a loan, it’s the other way around. Paying off your credit card is paying back a loan that was given to you.

            3. Ok, “loan” was the wrong term, but I still don’t see why you’d pay a bill several weeks before the due date when that money could be earning interest for you. Especially with savings account interest rates being what they are today. I keep the money I use to pay credit card bills in savings accounts that are above 5% interest right now, and transfer the money to a checking account right before the bill is to be paid. Do other people not do this?

               Like I said, I understand giving yourself wiggle room of a couple days and not paying on the actual due date (especially if you have to move money around), but I don’t understand the logic behind paying a bill weeks before it’s due. That’s a lot of lost interest!

            4. When the bill comes, I always just pay the full balance (not the bill but also the transactions since the bill).
               I also have an autopay that pays the minimum payment, just in case I’m unable to manually pay.
               The mental load and time needed for min/maxing interest rates on transactions this small isn’t worth it to me.

            5. Because it’s a small
               Amount of money and worth the hassle if something goes wrong

         2. It’s the new hotness in autopay – it pays on the due date, not a date you can choose. (Personally, I like a few days before the due date.)

         3. I set my payments on a business day that is no less than five days before the due date. No need to cut it so close when the penalty is so high.

   2. If it was originally only 50 dollars in interest, and you paid in full, i’m not getting how it would have increased to 150. I would call back and keep escalating to speak to a supervisor and have them walk you through the math

   3. Call the credit card company and ask to speak with the “retention department.” Ask them if there is any way they can write off the entire amount because you do not want to have to switch to a different company.

   4. Normally, if you pay your balance in full, you essentially get up to 30 days of interest free credit the following month — so let’s say your payment is due Jan 1, you pay on time but *not the entire thing*. You will now be charged interest on the remaining balance from December (that was due Jan 1) AND on any purchases you make starting Jan 1 — because you no longer get that courtesy 30 days free.

      Essentially the $150 is interest on whatever you charged from the time you missed that payment. I don’t know how to “stop it” other than to pay the card down to 0 BEFORE your next statement generates.

      That said, it is BS that they would do this and not reverse it based on a one time late payment by 1 day. I would call again and if you get the same answer, I would open a new credit card with a different bank and stop using this one. Keep it open if you need to for length of credit history and total available credit, but I would not continue to give them business. Remember that credit cards make a lot of their money on transaction fees, not just on interest and fees.

      1. This is the correct answer. I was in a similar situation and customer service warned me about it and suggested I pay a lump sum to the card in advance to prevent future interest.

         1. +1

      2. This is correct.

      3. Not OP. Thank you for explaining why I need to pay the whole balance and not just the statement balance. I knew that’s the best practice but I never understood why. I’m in my late 30s so this is a bit embarrassing.

         1. Don’t be embarrassed. I’m in my mid 50’s and didn’t know! I use credit cards for convenience, not for short term loans, so it wasn’t anything that I thought twice about.

         2. Actually you don’t — as long as you pay the entire statement balance you will continue to have 0 interest each month. The interest only starts if there is any remaining statement balance, or past due amount, at the time of the due date.

   5. If they won’t reverse all charges, cancel the card. Do tell them that’s what you’re going to do to put pressure on customer service to reverse the charges.

      If you typically pay on time and have good credit, then the charges should get reversed. I typically screw up paying a bill on time about once per year for each of my cards and always get the fees reversed with a simple phone call.

   6. Any time someone posts about things like this, a good 50% of people chime in just to tell you how perfect they are.

3. Hello, looking for some career advice.

   I work as an engineering manager in the aerospace/defense industry and am considering a pivot into a commercial industry. The defense industry is slow paced and I find myself frequently getting bored. As someone who thrives in high stress/pressure environments and needs to be constantly busy, I am becoming more and more miserable at work (which is making me irritable at home).

   However, we have great work life balance (aren’t required to work more than 40 hours and typically can get paid OT, super flexible work schedules, ect) and fairly stable industry.

   As someone who is in their early 30s and looking to start a family in 2-3 years, am I crazy for considering a pivot when I have a great balance? Will I regret moving once I have kids?

   1. Nope- now’s the time to pivot.
      1) you’re making a false dichotomy. There are plenty of other jobs with great work life balance, you just have to find them.
      2) you’re already frustrated. 5 years from now you’ll be extra frustrated and with a young kid and possibly another maternity leave coming up which will make the change even harder.

   2. With that timeline, I think this is a perfect time to switch. You can try something new, see how you like it, enjoy a good maternity leave, and then always switch back down the road if that makes sense.

   3. Now is the time to pivot; since you’re in a good enough job, you can be very choosy about finding the next role.

   4. I can’t tell you what to do, but I can tell you that as a mom (to only one fairly easy kid) I value work-life balance, a short workweek and a flexible schedule more than I would have ever imagined possible.

   5. I think you should go for it – if you don’t like your new job, it is pretty easy to get hired back into the big defense companies. I started my career there, went commercial, and then came back when I had kids.

   6. The only time to change your job situation for kids is if you actually have kids. You don’t know what kind of mom you’ll be or what kids you’ll have. You can’t know that before kids.

      I like high stakes and challenging work. I still do, even with two kids. To me work life balance is slow paced family time coupled with high stakes work, while outsourcing cleaning, laundry etc.

   7. Agree to pivot, but not to like a startup environment.

   8. I work in aerospace/defense so I have some industry-specific thoughts: 1) Work-life balance depends a lot on which company you’re looking at. It’s worth interviewing, but watch out for things like how willing they are to let you WFH and whether there’s a reputation for burn-out. 2) You didn’t mention looking at FFRDCs but that could be a good option, since they tend to do projects that are faster and more experimental than the big defense companies, but don’t have hours that are as crazy as some parts of commercial industry.

4. There is a real shortage of counselors in my area taking new patients, especially those that accept insurance. I researched BetterHelp last night and wanted to see if anyone on here has used it and found it helpful?
   It would be for run of the mill anxiety/depression

   1. Their reputation regarding your data privacy is pretty dismal. Also I remember learning that the counselors don’t have good working conditions, so you may see a lot of turnover.

   2. I have done therapy for years: both couples and individual. I recently tried BH and was not impressed. I vetted two therapist the app suggested for me: one had hundreds of pages of boilerplate before I could even schedule with her so she was a pass. The other I did three sessions with. She was not helpful. Her therapy was saying things like “that sounds frustrating.” But then not giving me any coping strategies. I should have stuck with it but I cancelled my subscription. Hope others have more insight.

   3. You get what you pay for,

      1. https://www.theonion.com/15-year-old-finds-summer-job-as-betterhelp-therapist-1849129709

   4. I have researched them for work purposes and it sounds like a bad deal. The working conditions for counselors are bad, so there is constant turnover. I know of someone who had 3 sessions on BH, and it was a different counselor each time. There’s also not nearly enough clinical supervision, so the counselors tend to be new, with minimal training, and little to no oversight from more experienced supervisors.

      I feel like these kinds of apps are intended to “hack” the extreme shortage of mental health services. It’s sad, but not surprising, that it doesn’t work. If these jobs were better paid, and if insurers weren’t so punishing, more “real” counselors would be available and taking insurance.

   5. I tried three different therapists on there and gave up. They were all pretty bad.

   6. I have a close friend who used it and found it helpful.

   7. I used BH twice. First time was ok. Second time was excellent. The counselor was so good I went back to her with my partner when we wanted do a brief stint of couples therapy. That said, for the second time, I worked with her outside of BH because they do have some glitchy issues (like skipping a week is problematic) and it was just easier to do telatherapy directly with her and not through a third party. I believe Psychology Today also has a database of counselors so you can find people who do teletherapy directly that way. Many of them also offer a consultation session. The therapy is only as good as the connection with the therapist, no matter what route you choose. Wishing you the best!

   8. It is a dilemma we are seeing in other industries too – is it better *for society* to have these kinds of options available for the masses, even if not great, or not?

   9. Summer of 2020 I was going through a lot. In late July my daughter was born, 15 days after that my dad passed following an extended hospital stay, and 3 days after that we lost my grandmother (his mom). Serious emotional roller-coaster. It was also 2020 so…..I wasn’t going in to talk to anyone. I signed up for BH on a whim and when the therapist took 3 days to respond to me, with “drink lots of water, tears are dehydrating” I noped out of there so fast.

   10. I used a therapist at a local graduate school –it was a seminary that offered graduate psychologist degrees, so you didn’t have to have a religious bent to the therapy if you didn’t want it. They had a sliding scale of fees depending on the level of education of the therapist. I was very happy with the person I had, and the five month “tune up” was exactly what I wanted. I actually ended up with a professor, who should have had the highest fee, but they charged me only $40 a session.

5. I have an open concept floor plan and a breakfast nook that i don’t know what to do with (it’s empty now save for some plants and a wine rack, and elsewhere on the floor there’s the kitchen, living room, dining room, and my study. What should I do with this space?

   1. You don’t want to have a table and some chairs there?

   2. What’s your family situation?
      With kids, I’d put a homework station. Without, I’d put a comfy reading chair + more plants.

   3. Married, no kids, 3 dogs. I could put a table and chairs or like a sofa/sitting area there but that seems redundant with the rest of the floor

      1. I would do a craft space/life office — a big built in with lots of cabinets and drawers for all the junk drawer stuff that accumulates and a big desk surface where you can write, do puzzles, draw, pay bills

      2. Could it be the dog station? Food & water bowls, beds, toy storage? Bonus if it’s windowed and gets sunbeams.

      3. We did a small table chairs that are easily wipeable. Mostly, so we have somewhere to sit when we are coming into the house and are gross after working out, doing yardwork, etc. This is how I rationalize the double chairs and table situation. It sounds silly but really help to have a place to sit rather than eating over the sink.

   4. We also have an open floor plan with a kitchen – breakfast area – great room set up. We never used our breakfast nook (we always use our dining room instead) so we had a large (8′) window seat with bench-to-ceiling shelves built into the space. This change added the equivalent of another living space to our first floor and we use it all the time (it’s basically a built-in day bed!).

      1. We also have an open floor plan with kitchen – “dining area” – “sunroom”/breakfast nook – gathering room. We have a large kitchen table in front of the kitchen island, the way it was shown in the model house as well as what our designer did for us. The sunroom is directly behind the table and at first we had a couch and 2 large chairs so the room’s contents were centered on the kitchen island, if that makes sense, but after a while we bought a large L-shaped sectional and have that, a round coffee table, and one of the large chairs. It’s off center but we don’t care. We use it ALL the time now for drinks and reading and friends-over-to talk. It’s basically our living room, I guess. (The “gathering room” is just 2 couches and 2 chairs, all basically facing a very large TV. Also the fireplace.)

   5. A friend has a ‘kitchen couch’ with a cushy oversized couch, an ottoman, and small side tables in her breakfast nook. It is the main place the adults tend to hang out when they host gatherings and she says her kids will also hang out there and read/congregate while making meals. It is so cozy and I wish I had the space to do it!

   6. We turned ours into a mini gym with treadmill, etc.

   7. I would do two cushy armchairs with a side table between them for a nice reading nook, with a ton of plants.

   8. Sounds like a good spot to have comfy chairs to read or chat and have coffee in. A friend has this and people always gravitate towards it during parties since people love hanging out in the kitchen.

   9. At my old house I put a desk in the breakfast nook. It wasn’t right in the center of the kitchen so it worked pretty well. We really didn’t need two places to eat, but we really did need a place to put a desk.

   10. I had some analysis paralysis picking out furniture for my breakfast nook last Fall. I ended up using online interior design company, Havenly, for a design consultation and found using their service money well spent for my situation. I found it nice to have someone take dimensions and map out furniture sizing to make sure I wasn’t playing trial and error with new furniture.

6. Looking for advice for handling a breakup when you are coworkers (ugh!). My bf of 2.5 years and I are likely going to end things in the next few weeks. It’s amicable, just sad. We are breaking up Bc I am ready to move our relationship to a deeper level (moving in, getting married) and he doesn’t want that – he’d rather spend the night a few times a week and otherwise lead separate lives forever. Neither of us is wrong but it’s not compatible. The problem? We work together. He’s one of the most important people in the company and has been there 20+ years. I’ve been there nearly a decade and am also valued but not nearly as prominent. People generally like us both and were supportive of the relationship. It’s the type of workplace where work and social lives are intertwined often.

   Any tips for handling this breakup gracefully? I’m so embarrassed and I just wish I didn’t have to navigate this at work. I know it’s my fault for dating a coworker but would just appreciate any advice or perspective.

   1. nbd – Many people have done it. Just treat it like a celebrity couple where you agree on a line — “Amicable differences” or whatever and stick to it. No details.

      1. This is exactly correct. Maybe have a few follow up lines prepped – “John is a great person but we aren’t the right people for each other,” or something.

         Remember that you don’t have to answer the question asked; you can sub in an answer to a similar question. “Is it true that he is interested in Limda in HR?” It was amicable and mutual. We have different goals.”

         1. I feel that implying he is interested in someone else in the company is only going to create more drama. And may change the split from amicable to non amicable. What is there it gain by making up and spreading fake gossip about him?.

            1. I think that was just an example of a rumor-mongering question, and answering a different question rather than the rumory one.

            2. Thank you, Anon at 1:17. It’s an example of a gossipy question and how to respond – don’t engage, repeat the usual line.

   2. Consider asking for help from a supportive coworker to shut down any gossip. “Hey Morgan, I could really use your help and support during this time. If anyone gossips to you about this, could you please ask them to respect our privacy. ” or “If anyone gossips to you, blow it off and tell them it’s not that big of a deal.” Because its not, it shouldn’t be, to other people. You do you. You got this. People date coworkers and mutual friends and sometimes it doesn’t work out. People will be inclined to give it the weight you do, which it sounds like you want to give it none in the public sector.

      1. For better or worse, you’ll shut down gossip faster if you entrust a colleague to chime in with: “They actually are doing just fine, and separating seems to be the best thing for both of them.” The best way to get people to hush about gossip is to make it abundantly clear that there is no gossip. If the OP projects no weakness or sadness about the scenario, and you have other people close to you communicating the same, then people will get bored and drop the subject. You may have to practice a clear, emotionless response a few times, but just answer in a strong voice. Asking adults to stop gossiping or to respect someone’s privacy is, IME, a quick way for people to whisper more.

   3. I don’t think you have anything to be embarrassed about. You simply want different things, and it doesn’t sound like you’re headed to a nasty blowout. It’ll be weird for a while, but doesn’t have to get nasty. People aren’t entitled to know details, but it’s perfectly fine to say to other that you want different things. People change, people grow, people grow apart. Nothing scandalous in that whatsoever.

   4. Agree with the comment to treat as nbd and continue to act like things are normal when you run into him or when people ask. I had a terrible work breakup about ten years ago and I’m a textbook example of what not to do. I was very depressed and then angry because I felt like he had wasted years of my life when he was never actually going to commit to me. We were both at the same level so there was no issue there, but it was an awkward and unpleasant situation. Thankfully I had work friends who supported me through it, but ultimately I chose to leave because it was too difficult for me. Frankly, it sounds like you have a very reasonable and mature perspective on this, and based on that alone, I bet you will be fine. So sorry about the breakup.

   5. Agree to sticking to saying the same thing over and over – amicable split and we wish each other the best etc. I would have a mantra stuck in my head for any run-ins with him, something like, keep it breezy, keep it breezy. Just say hi and move on. No need to dwell on anything. Good luck and keep your head up!

   6. I haven’t been through this myself but I work in an org where it’s really common for people to hook up, date, and get married. In there somewhere are plenty of breakups. People may gossip and it might be weird for a while, but everyone forgets and it’s ancient history before you know it. Get through the first few months as gracefully as you can and this will all be in the past. Don’t feel like you owe anyone an explanation — it’s amicable and we decided to part, the end. Good luck!

      1. Yes – if you don’t stoke the fire, and don’t give them any details, you’ll be too boring to gossip about, and they’ll move on to the next thing!

7. I think we had a few fans here of the Golden Enclaves books, I highly recommend The Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros! Only downside is no sequel till end of the year.

   1. Ooh! I’ve done so much heavy lit fic but I have 2 weeks away with my son in July and am going to read a pile of romance and fantasy after his 7:30 bedtime.

   2. Ooh, thanks for the recommendation! I just had five (!!) books come in from my holds at the library but I’ll be earmarking this for later on in the summer.

   3. yay, thank you! All I want from books is similarity to The Golden Enclaves/Scholomance series.

   4. Oooh thanks!

8. I have a tough meeting later today. I have my boss’s backing and the backing of the head of the company, but it is still likely to be a difficult conversation with a client who is coming into the meeting with animosity. Any tips or pep talks are appreciated!

   1. Remember why you are saying the difficult things, remember that the reasons for them are well thought out. Use active listening with the client and tell them that you understand and have considered their concerns. If appropriate, tell them that a lot of thought/work/discussion went into this decision. Good luck!

      1. Thank you!!

   2. You can do it! Since you know it’s coming, it should be easier to maintain your composure even if the client gets upset, and you’re going to feel SO MUCH BETTER once you can put this conversation behind you.

   3. This is going to sound super woo, but if you have a moment of privacy before the meeting, try using your arms to draw a bubble in the air around yourself. It’s a physical reminder that other people’s energy doesn’t have to affect you. It can also be helpful during the conversation if you start feeling stressed to press your hands against a part of your body as a reminder that what you’re touching is you and what you’re getting from the other person is them. I’ll subtly push my hands into the fronts of my thighs under a desk or table and take a slow breath.

      Good luck!

      1. I love these suggestions. Also remember that these experiences make use stronger for other things down the road. Also plan something indulgent or restorative this evening—such as a glass of wine while taking a hot bath, etc. The only thing you have control over is handling your side with grace. It might not feel great at the time but when you have some distance, you can feel proud of how you handled a difficult situation.

   4. I have recently been the angry client. I suggest you put yourself in the client’s shoes mentally and try to understand why they’re upset. If your company screwed up, acknowledge it and discuss how you’re going to correct it. Above all, don’t be constantly defensive. That will not calm down the client.

   5. Update: Made it to the other side and all went well. I was definitely nervous but the experience helped me to remember that meeting in person can be vastly superior to continued strained email correspondence. Everyone walked away happy and I feel proud of the outcome. Thanks for all the wonderful suggestions!

9. What would Olivia Pope wear today (if the scandal show was shot in 2023)? I’m in need of some upgraded business professional pieces and always loved the style on that show.

   1. Akris, Boss, Theory, St. John, The Fold, Scanlan Theodore. If budget is unlimited (as it often is on tv) you’d also add in Carolina Herrera, and basically all the higher end /professional pieces from houses like Armani/McQueen/Tom Ford. Essentially Selena Myers crossed with Shiv from Succession.

      1. + Vince. for basics.

      2. Anne-on, how I wish I didn’t know of the existence of Scanlon Theodore now….but thanks, really.

      3. I love this list.

10. Y’all are reading about it first here: I have given myself permission to quit the thing (not a job, but would apply to a job or a relationship) that has added more misery and joy to my life in 2023 (despite the opposite long being the case). I’m currently on a path to changing things up and if that doesn’t work, then walking out the door is the next option. I didn’t want to rage quit but am trying to figure out something that works for 2023 me in my 2023 work and my 2023 life. Either way, I win.

    1. Great! I’m trying to do the same thing – but inertia and comfort in the familiar is real, even if it sucks or is no longer working.

    2. I quit the thing Tuesday. It was a volunteer thing where there were 10 people in the group and only 2 1/2 of us doing any of the work. It is so freeing to wash my hands of it!

       Ps THIS is what all of those group projects in school are preparing you for.

11. My favorite Bite Beauty cream lipstick was discontinued. Sephora struck out finding a replacement. What’s the next best makeup counter to try?

    1. I’m a big fan of the Bite Beauty cream lipsticks and I also like the NARS Velvet Matte Lipstick Pencils. They aren’t exactly the same, but they both work for me, so maybe NARS will work for you!

    2. I would look to see if Temptalia has any info on a dupe for your specific lipstick color.

    3. Poshmark/eBay/Mercari. I’m still buying my favorite Becca lipstick that way.

       That said, the Max lustreglass lipsticks are very nice.

       1. *Mac

12. Do you think a very loud, grumbly stomach is a sign of something like a food intolerance or just a bad meal or PMS? How do you track info to decide?

    1. Isn’t that normal when you’re hungry? It always has been for me at least.

       1. This. isn’t that literally what feeling hungry is?

       2. OP here – my stomach is never loud when I’m hungry. Last night I definitely wasn’t hungry and would have been uncomfortable to eat more during the grumbling.

    2. For me it was a gluten intolerance. I think a very stressful time in my life triggered it. I had stomach pain and a loud, grumbly stomach for 4 years before I decided to try eliminating gluten. I tried eliminating other foods with no success and was really hesitant to try going gluten free because it’s in so. many. things.
       +10 years later I’m so glad I did it and it’s way more common now so I don’t really feel like I’m missing out

    3. It sounds like this is a regular occurrence and not a one-time thing. If so, maybe start tracking what, when, and how much you eat so you can cross reference with the grumbling to see if there is a pattern?

       1. OP – I don’t notice it often but last night was really grumbly. I had a cauliflower-heavy meal midday and was wondering if that might have been the cause.

          1. Maybe you need beano now.

             1. +1

                Keep note of when your stomach does this. Check out the FODMAP diet, which just lists vegetables etc.. that can cause some GI symptoms for folks. For me, this only started happening in middle age, and may be hormone related. Beano sometimes helps?

                But if your stomach is just grumbly, and you don’t have bloating/nasty gas/pain/diarrhea etc… then, who cares?

          2. It’s usually gas for me too. My husband’s tummy is very rumbly- sometimes it almost sounds like it’s speaking.

    4. For me it’s a physical thing. It happens when I sit with a laptop on my lap after eating. I don’t generally have any digestive issues, but I do have pelvic floor issues and pelvic pain, so I think it’s related to muscle tension and physical pressure. If I get up or put the laptop away, it stops.

13. I have to go to a lunch event for work. I think it’s buffet style in a hotel. For a variety of reasons I don’t want to eat anything at this event. What is the best way to do that without drawing unwanted attention? Say I’m fasting? Put a little salad on my plate and shuffle it around?

    1. I don’t think people notice or care at these events, so don’t worry about it. They are there to talk and meet folks, not for , so I would just focus on making conversation. If someone asks and ou feel awkward about it, just say you had a late breakfast meeting so will grab a late lunch.

    2. the advice I got was just not to take food you won’t eat. people are more concerned with/noticing of if you’re eating the food that you do get. if you don’t get food and people ask why, do have an answer ready, even a quick “I’m a very particular eater, it’s just me, please feel free to enjoy your meal”

       do not delve into fasting. people will ask why and you derail the conversation to medical or religious. just. don’t.

    3. Personally, I would eat beforehand and say that I was already full.

    4. Grab a drink. Don’t take food. Brush it off if anyone asks – “I already ate…” or

    5. Your health and safety is more important that what anyone else may say or think (even though people like to pretend COVID is no longer a risk). Be polite. Be unmoveable. Remember my grandma, who always said, “If you don’t have your health, you don’t have anything.”

       1. Absolutely agree. I ate from a buffet at a work event 8 years ago, became really sick and have been permanently disabled by it. Pack a handbag snack, for me.

    6. My husband ended up at a business meeting where they met at an Indian buffet restaurant – the same one where he got horrific food poisoning a few years prior. So obviously he wasn’t really keen on eating the food. He just told everyone he had a colonoscopy the next day and no one bothered him about eating.

14. For those who are parents, how much of the onus of you and your child having a good relationship is on your child? The background here is super convoluted, but to simplify, my mom had an affair when I was very young (I found out because she took me with her to see her “friend” and I had to wait until they were done), my parents had a super high conflict divorce, and my mom married the affair partner. Parents have 50/50 custody, and my mom and stepdad were neglectful and emotionally abusive, so I never opened up to them/generally avoided them when I could. I was always a really good kid and didn’t misbehave or yell or be super disrespectful (by my standards anyway, but while my mother recognizes she should have done some things differently, she also feels like us not being close is my fault because I shut her out of things growing up (didn’t tell her about things going on at school, moved out full time to my dad’s house as soon as I could legally do that, didn’t let her be a part of my college application process etc) and she also gets salty that I’m “rude and thoughtless” for not like giving her husband christmas or birthday gifts etc- I’ve essentially gone LC since I left home at 17, and now I’m 35. I feel like there’s a lot of good things about me and I am generally a kind and thoughtful person, but from their perspective I’m selfish and rude because I don’t do the things they want. I get why they’re hurt but I also feel like i was a child with normal child needs that no one tended to and everything was my responsibility to fix, and now she feels like I have at least equal if not more culpability in why we don’t get along. From my perspective she’s the parent, I was the child, and personally I don’t feel responsible for us not being close. I’m sort of second guessing myself though- is it unreasonable to say that it’s the parent’s job to make sure they have a good relationship with the child (assuming nothing out of the ordinary is going on with the child/they haven’t done anything?

    1. 1. Your mom sounds like a terrible person and mother and you wanting to be low contact is understandable.
       2. In general, I don’t think it’s *only* the parent’s job to make sure there’s a good parent-child relationship. Like all relationships, it’s a two way street. But that doesn’t change #1.

       1. +1

          I also grew up with terrible family dynamics, and both of my parents acted poorly. On/off years of separations/threats of divorce, instability, fear, and abuse. All the kids fled after high school, and we very rarely saw our parents after (or each other…)

          My parents did come a long way over the subsequent decades. When I was about your age, my Mom sat down with me and my siblings and said…. “I would like to see you more than once a year…… ” and stopped talking. I realized then that I was actively punishing my parents, and had been for years. Nothing really changed at that point, but I started looking at my parents a little differently, and started thinking about them as people. Not just as my parents. And I was no longer a child, and I started thinking more about choices and my own mistakes in my life over the years. I am not perfect, that’s for sure. When my parents were in their 60’s, our relationship improved. We all had grown a lot.

          This may be very different than your situation. Just wanted to give another experience.

    2. It sounds like you are second guessing the best choice you could have made, and continue to make. As an adult you have no responsibility to have a relationship with your parents. Them telling you you are selfish and rude is a them problem. If it speaks to you therapy for your self and/or with your mother is an option to help sort our your feelings on this.
       Best of luck to you.

       1. +1

    3. I don’t think it is the parent’s “job” per se. In general, I think that relationships have to go both ways, and good relationships definitely require effort on the part of both parties. That being said, I think it is completely reasonable that you don’t want to have a close relationship with someone who was neglectful and emotionally abusive to you when you were a child.

    4. Girl, what? Your mom was awful to you as a kid and is now being awful to you as an adult. Honestly if you were my friend and you had a GOOD relationship with your mom I would worry that you were delusional in some way or that it was some sort of Stockholm syndrome situation. Every time she says anything blaming you for anything, that’s one less phone call/present/whatever she gets until you get to 0. And then you’re done.

       NONE OF THIS IS YOUR FAULT.

       Also, Kat, the autoplay video ads with sound every day need to stop.

       1. +1, This. ^^^^

       2. +1, this.

       3. You can mute audio on this s!te (or any s!ite) in chrome (at least)

          1. firefox as well. Right click on the tab header. I wish my colleagues knew they could mute the notifications from our work chats this way!

          2. Thank you! I did not know this. Does it work for next time you are on the site as well or do I have to do it each time?

          3. I have mine muted and several times now it has unmuted itself! It used to never do this and is very annoying!

       4. There are autoplay video ads but they don’t have sound for me.

    5. At some point you can choose to see your parent as a person and get over your childhood. People have flaws and you only get one mother. I get why you were hurt, but I think it’s immature to keep punishing her for the rest of her life. I would try to form an adult relationship with her and see how that goes. You might be surprised at her point of view now that you aren’t “the child” anymore.

       1. Ah yes, the lovely ‘you only get one mom’ narrative. Kindly – if you haven’t gone through this experience you don’t know what you’re talking about. Yes, some people forgive difficult relatives for their own mental health, which is great! However, why is there no burden placed on the parent to do the work that demonstrates they understand the harm they did and that they have learned/changed? Forgiveness doesn’t mean that you’re obligated to allow an abusive person free access to you and your life and it certainly sounds like her mom has not done one bit of work to change/show that she’s become a new person.

          1. Op again. yeah this is how I feel, but if she’s not being abusive and crazy now and is willing to take some responsibility for the things she did, then I’m willing to put in some work now. Or maybe I could be willing? I just don’t know if I should be and how much work I should expect her to do here (taking responsibility I think is a bare minimum though, and she is kind of patchy on that)

             1. You’re doing a lot of great work sorting through these traumatic events. It’s really hard to do this.

                I see a lot of “should” in your posts. This internet stranger is here to say you can release yourself from “should” and don’t even worry about any of that. Life is complicated and there is no such thing, especially when you’re dealing with a traumatic childhood.

                So, if I were in your shoes, I would really consider what I want. Not what anyone else thinks because opinions will be all over the map, and none of those people have been through what you’ve been through. I spent a lot of time feeling like the abuse I suffered wasn’t “bad enough” to want to draw certain boundaries. It took a lot of therapy for me to realize that the people who were supposed to love and care for me failed in that, and “bad enough” isn’t really a useful concept.

                Also, you say she might not be abusive now. Are you sure? Some of the comments you’ve flagged of hers and her behavior that may be prompted by her husband are just ringing alarm bells to me, such as withdrawing from you and blaming you for being a difficult child.

                None of this was your fault. You were not a difficult child. Children and teenagers have parents partially to help them through hard transitions and emotions that are difficult to process. Your mom didn’t do that, and now she is blaming YOU. That is unfair. This is not your fault.

             2. Has she acknowledged that she was neglectful and taken ownership of her bad behavior? Frankly, she shouldn’t be putting blame on you exhibiting what sounds like normal kid stuff. Every single kid is a pain or screws up at times. Normal parents don’t bring that up years later.

             3. Eh, she has taken responsibility for some things but not others. A lot of this I think is because it was 1 conversation and we can only cover so much. She did say she wishes she had been a better mother and listened to how I said things impacted me and was empathetic. She does however still find ways to interject her perspective into things that doesn’t feel like it’s intentionally blaming/it feels like she’s just sharing her reality which happens to be kind of off base. for example once she shut me out for a year because I had been “maliciously plotting over the long term to ruin her marriage” that was random and came out of nowhere and I didn’t get so much as an explanation as to what made her think that. When we discussed she said something along the lines of “you’re right I should have given you the benefit of the dout but it sounded like you did it based on what [husband] said, and you never really made him feel comfortable.” So my assessment is she like a little bit takes responsibility but we’re not on the same page about the magnitude of the impact and she’s often sharing a bit of her perspective as to why she did what she did, which is usually some variant of I didn’t do X or I was so Y where neither X or Y are anything out of the ordinary.

                Sorry for the novel. After typing that out I think the answer is she’s not really taking responsibliity, and if I try for a better relationship I’m likely to be frustrated by this more.

             4. My sister had to come to terms with our mom being a less than perfect person. I was and am able to have more sympathy for her because as an adult I see that my mom was just a neurotic, frightened person who was dealt a hand in life that she didn’t expect to have to play. She’s gone now, and my sister is glad she took the time to try to have what I would call a grown up distant friends relationship with our mom at the end. She had therapy for this.

          2. +1 million. There is normal “being an adult means not holding grudges and letting go of fairy tale dreams of what your childhood should have been,” and then there is “by any standard, that was completely unacceptable and the best thing for my well being is to not have a relationship.”

          3. +1

          4. Exactly this.
             I wish all of those “you only get one mom” people would realize that not all moms are the same. I often wonder if people like this tell women to stay in abusive marriages because “he’s your husband…”

          5. Why do you presume I haven’t been through it?

          6. +1 Even if your parents aren’t abusive, I don’t think that it’s always healthy to keep pushing for close relationships when there’s such a long history of them not being actually available for that. My parents were not abusive, but also aren’t the best at showing up for me. It’s spotty; like they hit my big events that I make a point to make sure they know about (and I basically have to spell it out that it’s a big deal that they show up), but then totally ignore my 30th birthday (even though we’re at a family thing all together…). Stuff like that. I left the religion I was raised in and there were some blow up arguments around 17/18 and our relationship has been surface level since then. None of this is abusive, but this is what we have to offer each other. we don’t share the same understanding of the world, and that is harder for them than me (because they think there are eternal consequences, while I dont). Like OP, I feel for them and can kind of see their point of view…but I’m also not responsible for those feelings. At a certain point, I can pick at the scab continuously to try and get deeper or I can let it be what it’s going to be and be happy with what it is.

       2. Yeah this is fair, and the origin of this question is me rethinking how much i want to be involved with her. Unfortunately I think the answer would be easier if her husband weren’t around- he tends to insert himself into things and create a lot of drama. Re: who’s responsibility is it, mostly I am salty for her insisting that I was a bad kid and therefore we’re not close, it’s not so much that I think she has the responsibility now I’m just tired for being blamed for not meeting her needs when I was a child. We’re cordial now (assuming no involvement from her husband, although sometimes he convinces her that I’m a horrible liar who is plotting to split them up and she freaks out at me and refuses to engage). So clearly there are issues and I don’t think she has outsized responsibility now but I do kind of wonder if there’s merit to her claim that we’re not close becase I was a bad kid.

          1. Well this is a whole different set of facts. I wouldn’t try hard with this as background.

          2. I also recommend you read the unexpected legacy of divorce – it’s a book about a 25 year study of children whose parents divorced. I found a lot if it very useful, partly because while my parents had a friendly divorce (though also partially due to infidelity) it talked a lot about how divorce can place children in emotionally mature situations with their parents – for example, where the parents talk to the kids about adult problems like dating bc there’s no spouse to discuss with. For you, the continued relationship with the affair partner roped you into a terrible in between situation. I hadn’t thought about the similar dynamics in my own family and it made me reflect on my childhood (which was nothing abusive like yours, to be clear) in a new way.

             1. I will thank you!

             2. Wow. DH’s parents are divorced and it’s taken him years to realize that he was put in “adult” situations and conversations as a child; in fact he still is by both parents – FIL makes inappropriate jokes about his gardening life, MIL is just emotionally dependent on DH because he was the “good son”. DH is good with boundaries but it took a long time. I’ll have to tell him about this book.

             3. I am the anon who suggested this book and I do want to say that some reviews suggest that the author is biased towards not divorcing – ie taking the position that staying together even in a volatile relationship is better for the kids. Which is obv problematic in many circumstances. I was reading it from the perspective of a kid, not a parent thinking about divorce, so I didn’t take that specific view away but it’s something to be aware of. I think the book is excellent for children of divorce to understand their own issues and less helpful for parents navigating divorce’s effects on their kids. I hope it is as helpful for you all as it was for me (and my husband, who was very confused by my self destructive approach towards conflict resolution when we started dating).

          3. I’m seeing some big red flags from her husband. He had an affair with a married woman. Okay, you might say that he wasn’t the one who took vows, she was, so she’s more culpable in that than he is. (Not here to argue either side.)

             Problem comes when it’s coupled with telling her that you’re a liar, treating you poorly, and demanding presents and obsequiousness. Is he cheating on her? What is their dynamic like?

             1. Yeah he’s not a good guy and is very high drama. He is super controlling and doesn’t really let her have hobbies or friends that’s he’s not part of. he has an extremly short fuse and is very moody, but it tends to manifest in extreme nasty comments and passive aggressiveness vs being physically abusive. He’s more extremely immature vs being ill intentioned, and he can be warm to my mom off and on. I would be surprised if he were cheating but has many more problems. Also, my mom has cheated on every relationship she’s ever been in and doesn’t see an issue with this if they don’t find out, but I suspect she’s not cheating on him partially because he’s very controlling and partially because in the interim she’s found jesus.

             2. Just because Jesus forgives her, which is probably her attraction to finding Jesus, it doesn’t mean you have to,

       3. Minus 1, not this.

       4. It’s not just childhood though. It sounds like her mother is still being really mean. Calling your child rude and thoughtless because they don’t want to get a birthday present for the person you cheated on their dad with!? Even if the stepdad was a perfectly nice guy (which it sounds like he’s not), it’s an over-reaction to be that mad at her kid for not getting him a present. He’s not 3 years old. I’m generally team “don’t cut off relatives lightly” but I’m 100% with OP here.

       5. Yikes… this ain’t it.

          OP clearly states in her post that her mother was abusive to her. Abuse victims don’t have to go back groveling to their abusers just because the abuser brought them into this world.

          Drawing a boundary and sticking to it (i.e., maintaining low contact, no gifts, etc.) is not a punishment. It is for the maintenance of OP’s mental health. If the mother is seeing it as a punishment, then that is on her.

          1. The worst advice I got from a therapist was looking at how my parents raised me as “emotional abuse.” I spent years going low contact and being angry. Took me a long time to realize they were just young and didn’t have the resources to parent gently or whatever we’re calling it today. They weren’t bad people and I wasn’t “abused.” I’m forever grateful that I came to that realization and formed a real relationship with them as an adult before they passed on. Therapy can be great, and it can be misguided. I don’t know what OP actually went through here, but I’d be really suspicious and cautious about labeling things that can have a real impact on important relationships.

             1. Sometimes people are actually abused, though.

             2. Agreed. But a lot of therapists these days over-label everything “abuse.”

             3. I’m sorry you went through that with the therapist.

                I guess I’m just in the habit of believing people when they say they suffered abuse, unless there’s something I know for a fact that could make me skeptical. It really stinks to be an abuse victim but then people question whether it was really “bad enough.” That is such a toxic mindset.

             4. Sure, but I tend to think that if OP’s mom is bringing up what a “bad” kid she was years later that her mom is trying to excuse what she knows was terrible parenting by blaming her kid. Not something a decent parent would do.

             5. “I don’t know what OP actually went through here”

                But OP clearly described some specific situations she went through here. No one is jumping to conclusions based on nothing.

             6. I touched on some feelings about my mom at an early stage in therapy. The therapist responded with “she did the best she could” type messaging. I still had a lot of anger to process about how I was treated though, and that shut down the conversation between the therapist and I. I could have used the help to navigate my feelings and anger, but the opportunity was lost.

                I think what matters is that the OP processes her feelings. If she’s still angry at her mom over how she was treated, she needs to process it. That might mean talking with a therapist about that specifically, or meditation, or confronting her mom further about it. It sounds like their discussions to date have been quite surface level. It doesn’t matter whether the behaviour was or wasn’t abusive: she’s entitled to feel how she feels and she needs to process those feelings before moving on.

                OP- your description of your mom’s behaviour and thought pattern sounds very similar to my mom’s. Objectively, your mother is behaving terribly toward you over and over again. I would call it emotional abuse FWIW. I’ve settled into a regular but very superficial relationship with my mom now. It keeps me sane and seems to suit her just fine. We talk about her day, or shopping, or weather, or news about relatives. But there won’t be an authentic connection unless she makes meaningful change, and she’s really too old to expect that now, and that’s OK under the circumstances.

    6. I’m an early-40s mom of a toddler, and I was emotionally abused growing up.

       I literally pray every single day that I never treat my child the way I was treated. Meeting my husband opened my eyes to how dysfunctional and cruel they were/are; I’m not willing to let them treat him like that. When I had my son a few years later, I swear, it saved me years of therapy because it all became so gut-level clear how screwed up they are.

       This is NOT saying that you need to get married or have kids! It’s just saying that when you contemplate it happening to someone you love, you “get” how awful it is.

       Tl;dr – that’s a garbage way to treat your own child and it is in her and not you.

       1. Yup same — I’m watching my daughter grow up and remember what my life was like when I was her age and I just get SO ANGRY at the adults in my life a the time. Sometimes these thoughts come to me in the middle of the night and I just have to go to her room and watch her sleep for a while to calm down and remember that I will never let anyone treat her how I was treated.

          1. This. It’s going to sound sad (because it kind of is sad!) but the fact that my kid says ‘I love you!’, chooses to spend time with us, and comes to us with his issues make me teary when I think about it. I simply did not have the environment where it was safe to share feelings with parents without being mocked or dismissed, and I tried to escape from them as often as I could beginning at a young age due to abuse.
             If you haven’t been through that it’s relaly hard to understand that parents can act that way so I ‘get’ why people push back on going no contact with parents, but is it so hard to believe otherwise rational adults when they tell you they have no contact with their parents?

    7. Ah, sounds like you’ve reached the fun ‘my parent is a narcissist’ realization coupled with boomer (or late Gen-X) guilt trips because you didn’t flip the switch into being her best friend as an adult despite her treating you terribly for your childhood. Welcome to the club!
       Long story short, it’s her fault, not yours, and you get to set whatever limits are best for your mental health. I’ve found it super helpful to work out (with a therapist) where my limits are, to realize my mom will never (and likely isn’t capable) of giving me the emotional support/love that would lead to the closeness she would like. After a period of going no contact we now have a very superficial relationship where I send cards/gifts for major holidays and bdays/do a check in call at a set time and end calls/visits if she gets mean/yells/guilts. It’s been amazing the turn around narcs will have if you clearly demonstrate you are taking absolutely none of their BS. My mom treats me with respect because if she doesn’t I cut her off. She’s also able to spin the superficial visits/cards/gifts into enough of a ‘happy family’ story that satisfies her mental narrative.
       I realize this sounds super cold and horrible but if you haven’t had to deal with this type of family situation you have no idea the pain and trauma narcs will put you through if you don’t set strict limits. I also don’t discuss our relationship beyond a VERY high level with friends unless they know me/my mom well – there is SO much judgement when you don’t have the expected ‘mother/daughter bond’.

       1. OP I think listen to this person.

       2. I honestly did not believe this stuff (ending the phone call; walking out) would work until I tried it. I thought the people treating me this way couldn’t couldn’t shape up their act. They could and did, at least with me, and now they save the madness for people who haven’t yet “set boundaries” this way.

       3. +1
          OP, this is it.

       4. I agree with this advice, but there’s no need to attribute the conduct to any specific generation. My mom is neither boomer nor late Gen X and behaves exactly as you describe. It’s the personality, not the generation.

    8. Girl no. Listen to her less. Go lower contact. Go no contact. You are not the problem.

    9. Agreed. I do think about this a lot now that I’m a parent (to a baby, so I have no real experience here). I have a good relationship with my parents, but am also pretty private and stubborn and have made my own choices in life. Some of those choices were mistakes (see: my first marriage) and maybe if we had a different kind of relationship they would have told me they disapproved and I would have listened? I’m not sure. Anyway it sounds like your mom was abusive to you as a child, so I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about what she thinks. Do you want a different relationship with your mom? If so, you can try to rebuild that relationship in a way that works for you now, but don’t let her hurt you. It’s ok to set boundaries, especially for something so emotionally complicated where you are carrying some childhood trauma.

    10. You aren’t describing a parent/child relationship, you are describing a case of child abuse.
        What happened was not your fault. What happened was NOT YOUR FAULT.
        She has no right to say those things, and you have every right to continue being as low contact as you need to be. (Although if I were your friend I would advise full on no contact going forward).

    11. You’re not unreasonable. Parenting is hard for sure, but especially with a young child you have to put in concerted effort to help them learn how to be human beings. All kids will do things that are “bad.” When my kids act like sociopaths it is my responsibility to help them through it. Maybe she didn’t have the maturity needed to be a great parent or is in denial about her bad parenting and is trying to put it on you.

        1. I’m sure people disagree about this, but I really took it to heart when a friend who is a shrink told me when my kids were small that empathy is a learned behavior.

           Kids don’t just naturally know not to hit/bite/grab stuff from other kids, which made me feel better when my kid would do something antisocial and some smug mom high on Dr. Sears would say, “well, my kid doesn’t hit because that is one of our family values and we told her we don’t hit.” Teenagers mostly don’t hit one another, but sometimes I have to spell it out that no, I don’t live to drive you places.

           1. “In my house, we teach people not to be smug about their good fortune.”

    12. I would take a big step back and ask what you want here. Do you want a different kind of relationship with your mom moving forward now that you are a fully grown adult? If not, then you are not obligated to do a thing.
        How is it that you are hearing about your mom’s discontent? Does she send you salty texts or emails or call you to complain that you did not get her the right level of Christmas present?

        FWIW family is complicated. I had a perfectly find childhood. My mom is not an adult I want to spend my free time with and I’m fine creating that boundary. She has shoe-horned her way into my adult life in a way I really resent. I’ve told her I need space and she’s done nothing about it, so I’ve put a lot of distance between us which is silly given that she lives a block away and teaches at my kids’ school (see: shoehorned herself into my life. She just showed up in my state/town one day declaring it her new home but that is a story for another day).

    13. It’s not unreasonable but just because people become parents doesn’t mean they are reasonable or good people.

        I’m in the process of accepting the fact that my relationship with my mom will not be as close or as fulfilling as I wish and that’s okay and doesn’t mean that either of us did anything ‘wrong’.

        She is in my life still but there is a distance and boundaries that she does not like because it means she is not in control of everything.

        And things can change. Interestingly, my relationship with my MIL improved after she moved next to my SIL and BIL. Direct daily insight on the challenges of parenting 3 young children opened some new empathy in her for me.

    14. None of this was your fault. None of this is your fault. Not your responsibility to make the relationship closer. This internet stranger gives you permission to stop second guessing yourself. I’d refuse to even have conversations about the relationship and what went wrong and whose fault it is and how to make it deeper, or whatever she wants. That’s just her trying to make you responsible; I don’t think you have to have those conversations at all.

    15. I don’t think it’s your responsibility to fix this relationship, and it was certainly not your responsibility when you were a kid. It sure sounds like your mom let you down repeatedly as a kid and wasn’t there for you. I hate to say this because I know it’s a cliche but – are you in therapy? Because it seems like you have a lot of pain that is not letting you move on. Are you repeatedly discussing your childhood with your mom? Does she bring it up, or you? Does she constantly want to discuss the state of your relationship? Honestly, I think she’s the last person you need to discuss any of this with at this point, and if she keeps bringing it up, shut it down.

        But to your question – Relationships between parents and children change as both parties age. I think it’s largely the parents’ responsibility to maintain a “good” relationship (the definition of good will vary between families and people) while kids are young/young adults but by your 30s it becomes more equal – and as the parents become elderly, the burden shifts to the kids.

        1. And when I say move on, I mean establishing boundaries and the level of relationship with your mom that is best for you. That might be no contact from what you’ve described in the comments. It seems like she’s not going to stop harassing you about “what happened between us” and nothing you say is likely to make her realize her role in all this. But the fact that you are second guessing says to me that you are still in a lot of pain (understandably because your mom keeps the wound open) and might benefit from talking to a professional about it.

        2. She does want to discuss it, and even when I rebuff those efforts she makes a lot of passive aggressive remarks about things. When that happens I leave. The thing is, last year I initiated an honest conversation about things and how I felt- basically because I had never really enaged her on the topic with my adult brain and I wanted to say my piece, and she can do with that what she wills. It was actually a good discussion and she was mostly understanding and kind, and she did talk about some regrets she has that she feels really bad about, so I do think she’s maturing somewhat and this makes me feel like we could have an opportunity to build something better. Her husband is a confounding factor, and she hasn’t taken responsibility the way I would have liked, but honestly she came pretty close. That was like 18 months ago and was our last engagement on the topic. I don’t think we’ll ever be close, but I do want a warmer relationship if I can have it, and I am not sure if I’m dumb to think that’s possible, or if maybe in my hurt I was being super self centered in how things impacted me and feeling like up until I left home it was kind of on her to be the adult in the relationship and try to connect with me. Lord knows I tried to connect with her.

           1. It is 100 percent developmentally appropriate for kids to be self centered. Part of growing up is leaving the protection of your parents’ support and learning to understand your place in the world and how your actions affect others. You lost that opportunity for natural growth. You did nothing wrong. You could not and should not have been put in the position of meeting your mothers emotional needs. Do not feel bad about that at all. And you also can’t be responsible for your mother’s feelings today. It sounds like you are taking good steps to have a healthier relationship that doesn’t let her dictate the terms and I encourage you to continue.

           2. My heart goes out to you, OP. You’re doing all the right soul searching. You are not dumb. It’s perfectly normal for someone to want a relationship with their parents, even if they suffered horribly because of their parent in the past. You were not self-centered. You were a child and a teenager. It is normal for kids to be overwhelmed by their emotions. Parents are supposed to help them navigate. Your mom didn’t.

              I have a long comment in mod to one of your previous replies, so I hope you’ll be able to see that after it is approved. I’m thinking of you.

    16. Parents set the foundation for the relationship in childhood. From there, the maintenance of that relationship does go both ways. It sounds like you were a normal kid who wasn’t perfect, and she’s using that the justify the strain between the two of you rather than having to face the ugly truth that she really screwed up as a parent. I think you are very justified here. You could have been the worst kid in the world and that wouldn’t excuse neglect.

    17. Thanks ladies, all of these perspectives has been super helpful as I think through what to do next.

    18. There is no pleasing people like this, even if they are your parent and you genuinely want to have a better relationship. They aren’t going to act like adults, they are stuck in their own headspace about what is supposed to happen.

        I have a tween and a teen. The last thing I want to do is relitigate their adolescence when we are all adults. Teens do stupid things! Teens blow situations entirely out of proportion and insist on doing stuff that their parents don’t like, even if it seems entirely reasonable to the teen! I don’t want to sit at a holiday table in my 60s and complain that my kid should have auditioned for the local prestigious conservatory instead of refusing to sign up in high school. I’m not going to sit there and complain (like my MIL does) about how my husband didn’t study for the ACT and got a perfect score (so lazy!). While I don’t feel like it’s 100% my responsibility to have a relationship when we are all adults, I am happy to do more to keep that relationship going in the long run.

        My own parents have a lot of flaws, but they don’t ever mention things from my childhood that I’m sure were really irritating to them at the time (e.g., not taking calculus, refusing to do sports, etc.). While I don’t think of us as being super close, we do talk a lot and hang out and visit each other. That’s the best we can do – we aren’t the same people in different generations.

    19. The onus is on me…fully. Once my child hits 18, if I’ve done my part, then I guess some onus is on them also…

        Mother of tween and teen.

15. Have any lawyers on here done document review work through a staffing agency? I am thinking through scenarios for if/when I want to or need to leave my current job without another permanent job lined up. It seems like document review through a staffing agency could fill that gap on a temporary basis. What was the process of getting hired? Is the work truly awful or tolerable?

    1. The pay is dismal. It’s usually $26 an hour, straight time (ie no OT – you can work more than 40 but don’t get paid time and a half), and very erratic. It used to be quite steady work: once you’re on an assignment, you would get 40+ hours a week with a lot of flexibility (great when you’re interviewing). Now it’s very hurry up and wait, stop the clock, now work huge amounts of OT to hit a deadline.

       If you can at all coast at work while you job hunt, try that instead.

    2. My husband did it for a few months on a gap between leaving a job and starting a clerkship. I think it was easy to get hired and also pretty miserable. Fine for a paycheck and when you have a definite end date, but probably not something you’d want to do for terribly long.

    3. If you are a litigator, you may want to start checking your locks federal courts job postings for temporary clerks for judges. Much better work and looks good on the resume.

    4. I’ve done it. it was 2013 or so. it was fine. a lot of basic lawyers in between jobs or people who do it while freelancing. there was a lot of security around the documents and process and that part was annoying – at the time I had to drive to an office building near our main airport, like half of a floor was dedicated to the project, we weren’t allowed pens or paper or bags near us. the phone security was super strict. not sure what it would be like now with WFH and AI.

    5. Whether it is awful or tolerable is largely dependent on who is supervising you. Unfortunately it will often be a very junior person with no idea how to manage, lots of pressure on them, and little bandwidth to actually set you up for success.

    6. I’ve done this and at one point was told I was too accurate in my coding, was going too slow as a result, and needed to speed up. It’s miserable. It’s good for a temporary paycheck and that’s about it.

16. Recommendations for summer dresses? Looking for something easy/casual for backyard BBQs, kids’ birthday parties, etc. that are a step up from athleisure but don’t feel like I’m trying too hard or am overdressed (i.e. Anthro somerset dress feels like overkill to me for these purposes). Prefer something sleeveless and with some shape but not body con. Size 16.

    1. J Crew Factory

    2. +1 to JCF. Also check out Gap and Gap Factory.

    3. The uniqlo dress with the ruching and the thick straps. I got the burnt orange last year and get so many compliments on it. I’m a 14, and wear the Large which feels like a good fit.
       It’s great for kid stuff b/c it’s longer, I can play, sit on the grass, ride a bike without flashing anyone.

    4. For this type of event, I default to a t-shirt dress or tank dress. Anything else makes me feel overdressed.

    5. I bought The Easy Workwear Jumpsuit, The Easy Workwear Dress and The Linen Workwear Dress from Everlane and I’m really enjoying all three as my spring/summer go tos. Easy to dress up or down with footwear/jewelry, etc.

    6. Sleeveless pin-tuck dress from Land’s End can be dressed up or dressed down, usually comes in solids and prints. Currently only one print offered, but at around $13 dollars, you can’t miss!

17. Prolactin OP: I don’t have a real update for you. I saw my doctor and he said that my very slightly elevated prolactin levels weren’t high enough to have any effect on fertility or any other issues I’ve been having lately. I have mixed feelings about this because I was hoping for more answers (partially regarding fertility and moreso about a plethora of small aches and pains and changes to my period and gardening) but sounds like it may just be a waiting game for my husband and I since we haven’t been trying for a full year yet. GYN did recommend moving forward testing my husband, so we’ll see. Hopefully this is encouraging for you though since I believe you mentioned your levels were just very slightly elevated, too. I seem to recall our numbers were the same. Best wishes!!

    1. Was the doctor you spoke to a fertility specialist? Sometimes GPs or OBs say you need to wait, but in my experience they are willing to start whenever you want. You don’t have to play the waiting game, unless you want to.

       1. Thanks for asking! He actually said he is willing to start treatment when we are but didn’t necessarily recommend it just yet because I am still in my early 30s. In my case, I think I want to wait a few more months before making that leap. I appreciate the input though!

    2. Thanks for the update! I have my own follow-up appointment tomorrow with a doctor I don’t particularly trust, but I will let you know what happens anyway. I’m trying to change practices but it’s slow going in my area. One thing I do know is that it’s important to find a doctor who takes you seriously and hopefully we can both have that.

       1. Hope it goes well tomorrow! Glad you are advocating for yourself!

    3. Normal ranges for labs are determined by finding the mean in a healthy population and typically setting the range 2 SD above and below that. So usually at least 5% of healthy people will fall outside the normal range. Labs are not really significant on their own, they are part of the over all picture and need to be interpreted within the clinical context of the patient.

       1. Thanks for sharing this. It is a useful reminder that most doctors do not reinforce.

18. I’ve seen it mentioned on here and the Interwebz that Europe has better sunscreen options than the US. Any suggestions for particular brands to pick up on a trip to France this summer? (or any other skincare type products I should get?)

    1. i thought it was Korea/Japan that had the best skincare – look for PA++++. I remember years ago hearing that La Roche Posay was the gold standard but I haven’t heard that in 10+ years; also that brand is now available stateside. Curious to see what others say.

    2. I get my La Roche Posay in France, mostly because I travel there regularly and it’s cheaper. I also often get a big spray bottle of either Biotherm or Bioderma sunscreen which smells nice for the beach. Avene is good too. Someone in the industry once told me that French brands have to change their formulations in the US because the standards are different and there are articles claiming the EU formulations are better, but I honestly don’t know if that’s true.

       1. Just got back from Paris and the La Roche Posay stuff was for sure cheaper so I got some sunscreen. Also basic retinol was less expensive so I got some of that instead of replacing the L’Oreal one I buy at CVS every couple months in the US. I also got some face wash and soap, but mostly for fun. Frankly, I’m not the biggest skincare person, and the prices seemed somewhat cheaper but not super duper cheap, even at the duty free.

       2. It is true. There are newer sunscreen ingredients that are well tested elsewhere but the FDA hasn’t approved them in the US.

       3. +1 to La Roche Posay. It’s been my go-to for almost 20 years, I order it from various Euro beauty websites. I like the LRP Uvmune formula which has filters that are not approved in the US.

    3. FDA only allows a few sunscreen ingredients and those are dated. There are far better and stable sunscreen ingredients available (used in Asian and European products) and I don’t understand what is FDA’s issue with them.
       I use SPF50 on body and buy whichever is on sale at the moment: La Roche Posay or Vichy. You can usually get better deals online vs in physical stores.
       For face, I use Asian sunscreen products: Benton Air Fit, Purito (despite the scandal, that’s one product that guarantees me coming back pale as a wall even after a 3w trip to Mexico), Beauty of Joseon. LRP also makes nice face sunscreens (don’t buy the ones in a pump).

    4. Check out Charlotte Parler on IG. She will give you the scoop and she’s pretty no-nonsense.

       I wear Asian SPF, personally.

    5. Blue lizard is an Aussie sunscreen that I swear by. They know about strong sun down under.

19. Bach Party question —

    If you do a full-weekend trip (airfare, hotel, outings, meals) for a bachelorette party, is the expectation that the bride is paid for, for everything? That is to say, if we ask the bride to pay for some of it, are we monsters? There is a difference of opinion in our group, and, in case it matters, it’s a small group (6 total, including the bride).

    Also, we’re in our 40s, so no one is indigent, but this has somehow morphed into a $2000/pp weekend, due to really high airfare and a bride not getting her stuff together.

    1. I think group sizes matters. I think it’s pretty standard in a group of 20, but in a group of 6 I’d balk at it. With a group this size at most I’d cover the bride’s lodging in a shared house. I can see feeling like she shouldn’t have to chip in for that. But flights are a very different story, especially with flight prices being what they are lately.

    2. How much of that is the bride’s percentage? I’d say if it’s less than 10%, I’d just treat the bride. Otherwise have her pitch in.

    3. Was tuning up my violin and am game for a Bach party. But I read too fast.

       1. Me too! Bring out the harpsichord into the “salon” for a music session with coffee and wine and snacks.

          1. a Smith-Smythe recital, perhaps.

             1. Oh please no anything but that!!

       2. I am here for a Bach party. I’ll play the partita for unaccompanied flute.

       3. Same! If I were to get married, that’s the kind of party I want.

       4. Haha, same! Ah, Bach!

       5. I was like aww, does it have to be all Bach? Not even a little Schubert?

          1. And definitely need some Mendelssohn!

    4. I would think it’s pay own airfare, split hotel with bride paying her share and then treat the bride for food/alcohol/shows. Assuming shows are not like crazy pricey.

       1. +1 on this — bride pays for lodging and airfare (and transfer to airport), and the group chips in to cover her meals out and drinks — that’s the celebratory and gift aspect of this event. The assumption is the party has no real choice in location, so everyone who can participate pays their own way to/from.

    5. No, absolutely not. It’s nice to cover the bride for the main activity (aka a show), dinner, and maybe a shared hotel room, but she can and should absolutely pay her way there and back and any extras (lunch, coffees, side activities, etc).

       I’m only in my 30s but feel like An Old because I hate bachelorette party culture. Unless everyone really wants to spend their vacation time and money, these enormous events seem like a waste. The wedding is supposed to be the main celebration! So I’m also not on board for any bridezilla’ing or having people demand that everyone must sacrifice extra to fund the bride’s choice of bonus party.

       1. I agree with you. I’m also cynical because I’ve the same pattern over and over. A few people in the group get married early, everyone goes to the bridal shower, Bach party, and wedding; everyone goes to the baby shower. Then when the later-to-marry group has their turn in the spotlight, it’s all “how dare you ask me to travel 2 hours each way to your wedding; I know you invited my kids too but that’s not reasonable.”

          1. Wow, hearing these stories makes me glad that I’ve only ever been invited to one bachelorette party ever.

    6. When I was in this phase, the groups tended to cover the excursions and food/drinks for the bride, but not the hotel and flights. Honestly, unless you know for sure that the whole group is rolling in cash, being in a bridal party is often a significant expense for a lot of people and I wouldn’t want to add to that.

       1. And I thinking back, we didn’t always pay for every excursion or meal, just some.

    7. I went on a friends’ bachelorette weekend trip a few years ago that was the same size and there was one day we designated as the “bachelorette day,” where the bride didn’t pay for anything. Otherwise, she split in like everyone else – she paid for her own airfare, her share of the house we got, meals on the other days (though there may have been one or two where someone offered to cover the meal for her, but that was of their own volition IIRC).

       1. Similar experience in my friend group. Bride paid for her own travel costs and share of hotel rooms. We did a spa day and special dinner that we covered.

    8. When I’ve done this in the past, the group minus the bride split the hotel and meals. Bride paid for her own airfare. Also, if I remember correctly, the bride treated us to a meal as a thank you.

    9. My friends (late 30s) have been doing weekend bachelorette parties for years because we all enjoy them and it’s a nice way to have a somewhat regular girls weekend and explore cities around the country.

       Anyway, the bride pays for her airfare and splits the cost of the hotel or AirBnB. We cover the cost of her food and alcohol for the weekend. It’s usually about 10-12 people and we tend to be in cities where you can do things affordably so it’s usually a negligible increase in costs.

    10. All the bachelorette parties I’ve been to the bride has paid her share, but I’ve heard of some friends going to ones where everyone pays for the bride, and those seem to always be ones where the bride is a bit of a bridezilla/very extra and goes very over the top for the bachelorette party (international locations, lots of expensive extras etc.)

        1. Same, and I would balk hard if a friend tried to do that to me. No, I am not paying for you to go to Mexico just because you’re getting married.

    11. you aren’t monsters, i would 100% expect the bride to pay for her own flight

    12. Bride pays for her flights and a share of the lodging, but is generally treated for meals out, etc.

        1. This is what my crowd does (late 20s, Philly / NYC, mix of people making $$$ in finance / big law, people making $ in government, and people in med school making nothing).

    13. I have been to exactly one bachelorette party full weekend trip, and the bride paid her own way. There were 6 of us, including the bride.

    14. For the handful of bachelorette parties I’ve been to, mostly when I was in my late 20s, the bride paid her own airfare and share of the hotel, and the group covered her portion of all or some of the activities / meals.

    15. I have never been to a bachelorette party where the guests covered the bride’s airfare or the bride’s share of the hotel or other accomodations. I would say activities and other expenses have been a mix – some bac parties the bride has chipped in, other times she has not. When the bride does not contribute to other expenses, the bride’s fiance (or the bride) sometimes covers dinner for the whole group one night as a trade-off (for example, hiring a private chef to come to the house one night).

    16. Usually we pay for brides meals / drinks but she covers her airfare and portion of the hotel or Airbnb. One time I went to one and the bride very, very generously paid for the entire Airbnb.

        Attendees also cover the decorations. Bride covers the favors.

    17. With the caveat that my bachelorette party was a 3 hour drive away, so no airfare, and overall a lot less expensive than what you’re talking about – I paid my own share of everything except for one dinner out, which everyone else split between them, and a limo to take us wine tasting, but my MOH surprised everyone with it and she paid for the whole thing. I contributed to the Airbnb, food for the house, paid for my own tasting fees at wineries, etc. I also drove some of us there, so I paid for gas. I didn’t feel comfortable asking everyone to throw the entire party for me.

20. Anyone use a travel kettle? Do you like it? I don’t trust the cleanliness of hotel room coffee makers, and if I don’t have a tea or coffee pretty much immediately after getting up, I feel like my whole day is off, it’s my one morning ritual that is consistent and something I struggle with when traveling. I have some work travel coming up and considering getting one.

    1. Do it! I need to get one for europe because I’m so grumpy without a cup of tea first thing.

       1. Ok you’ve convinced me!!

    2. Love this idea! Any brand recommendations?

    3. I run one load of water through the in room coffee maker first, (usually right when I check in), then consider it fine to use.

    4. I have this one and it’s great. It works internationally, too. I’ve got to have a couple of cups of tea to wake up every day. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YRT7WJ9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

       1. This is the one I was looking at! Thanks for sharing :)

21. Posting here as I think we have some moms of older kids. This is a Lean-in/Coast type of job question.
    The HR team at a tier-2 competitor reached out to me about taking a department lead position. So right now imagine I’m a designer at Hermes, and this new role is head of design at Tory Burch. I can’t/won’t ever get to head of design at Hermes without having been head of design elsewhere, so I always knew I’d need to go to a slightly less prestigious company to make the next move up in seniority. I’m in my 40’s, my kids are 10 and 12 and this new role will involve managing a team of 15, more travel, and more pressure. I’ve been here for 2 years and it was a big step up in terms of pay/seniority from my last role and I’ve learned a ton. We have a really good support system in place at home, my husband is supportive if it’s a move I want but I’m ambivalent. In my world jobs like this aren’t ‘posted’ (well, they are, but only for HR reasons), it’s more of a tap on the shoulder situation. These roles also don’t come up often and if I don’t take it I may be stuck for a good 3-5 years. Fwiw, Hermes would be totally fine with leaving (they get that it’s a high pressure company and many pepole move on after a few years) and I’d be in line for a higher level position once someone else ‘tests me out’ first BUT I will not get to that next step here. Wwyd?

    1. Why wouldn’t you take the job? You say you are ambivalent but I think you’d get better advice if you describe your ambivalence.

       Questions to ask yourself: do you want to be head of design ever? Are you enjoying this chapter of your life or do you want to make a change?

    2. I would take it unless there is some issue at home (kid with a disability, caring for elderly parents) that would make the travel and extra responsibility unsustainable. I have a kid in high school, and middle school was much less demanding in terms of parenting so the timing is good as long as you have after-school transportation covered.

    3. Unless it would burn bridges, take the interview and get a feel for the new role. You can certainly thank them for their time and say that it isn’t a good fit.

    4. Do you want to get to a higher level? I heard nothing in there about what you want for your career. Are you happy staying at the level you are for the rest of your career? If not, is there anything in particular about the new company you don’t like? I didn’t hear anything band about the new company in all of that. Assuming you want to be a department head and they completely doesn’t have a horrible reputation for how they treat their employees or similar huge downside, I would take it

    5. how high-need are your kids?
       it gets a little bit easier as they focus their activities, are easier to monitor from a distance, and the parenting village can help with like carpools and stuff. so with the 12yearold, if they’re a good kid and don’t need a ton of extra attention like doctors and stuff, I’d say go for it. with the 10yearold, and husband/dad as a partner, yes. this change if your kids have learning difficulties or social challenges or medical stuff. but you didn’t mention any of that. at least interview and ask around as to the culture.

       1. Contra: my kids’ highest need years were middle school through 10th grade. Those years are brutal socially, academics kick up, and adolescent insecurities are huge.

    6. We’re you interested in moving to the next level before this job came along?

    7. So for me, kids in that age range mean I would be looking for low travel. In 3-5 years, they are mostly through the early teen/middle school years where just being physically present and available to talk can be key.

       How much of a jump would it be on travel?

    8. To me it all depends on what you want to do with your career. If you eventually want to be head of design at Hermes, and you know you need to make this move to get there, make the move. depending on the demands of the job and your husband’s flexibility, until your kids can drive you may need transportation or logistical help with the kids and their activities. But the logistical stuff is a solvable problem; you can usually throw money at the issues and get them to go away

       If you don’t really want the higher level career, then don’t worry about this. I, for one, have figured out that now that I’m making the money I want to make, I’m not interested in moving higher in my organization, which would net me a lot more headaches and work hours for not that much money. So, I’m good and if I had gotten the call you got, I likely would say “thanks but no thanks.” You have that option also; it depends on where you want to go in your career from here. If the answer is, not much further up than where you are now? No problem. I might at least go to the interview, though, to make connections and feel out the situation, but if you feel like that’s more than you want to do – don’t do it.

22. Someone talk me into or out of buying this?
    https://thefoldlondon.com/product/charlcombe-jacket-indigo-blue-linen/

    1. It’s priced as a very special jacket but it’s designed as a nice-enough jacket.

       1. +1. Doesn’t look worth the price to me.

    2. I would only get that jacket if I were also buying the matching pants, and frankly I am concerned about the width of those pants at the hem. I think they made be extremely wide such that it does not feel like a formal suit or even is clownish, especially if you are not very tall. Also, I think you are likely to need to hem those pants, which will add to the cost of the purchase. The only other way I think you can wear that jacket that would do it justice is to pair it with very nice white pants or a white dress. If you have those, maybe consider it. Overall, I don’t think that is a particularly versatile piece, but if that doesn’t matter to you, you have a lot of money to spend, and you have the appropriate bottom piece, go for it.

       1. I see now that they have shown the jacket paired with more casual ivory pants and I don’t think that outfit is elevated enough to make the jacket look worth its price.

       2. No, sorry, The Fold is not worth the money you spend unless you want it to look like a The Fold piece.
          This one is a very regular blazer, IMO, so save your money and get something with better fabrics. If you want one of their more origami style pieces, the maths are different.

    3. I highly recommend that you buy it.

    4. I love the whole suit but they lost me at the cuffed pants.

23. It’s lovely but pricey. If it’s within your budget and you have pieces to wear with it (looks great with white), I say buy it!

    1. Nesting fail.

Comments are closed.