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Updated: Oct 11, 2021 172 Comments · by

Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Irving Skinny Stretch Wool Pants

The Personal Shopper (TPS) |

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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

Regardless of what Gen Z has to say about it, I think skinny pants are here to stay. These wool trousers from Lafayette 148 are absolute classics. The 29-inch inseam is going to be flattering on a variety of heights, and the fabric has just a touch of stretch for fit.

I love a wool pant for chilly fall mornings, but do note that if you’re sensitive to wool, these pants are unlined, so they might not be for you.

The pants are on sale for $151.20–$159.20 (originally $378) and come in sizes 0–18. They also come in gray and black.

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Sales of note for 9.10.24

Sales of note for 9.10.24

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About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. LaurenB

    Cute but the unlined is a deal-breaker for itchiness.

    Following up on some of the comments from the weekend thread – why is it that the “trying to understand the other side” always has to go from blue to red? Where are the articles exhorting the conservative evangelical southerners to understand that they are an aberration in the rest of the country? That pushing their version of Christianity comes across as hick to those of us who grew up in diverse cities? Telling them that surprise, guns are widely considered tacky?

  2. Anon

    I’m signing up for new employee health care and this is the first time I will use an HSA plan (always had a PPO previously).

    Is it sensible to stuff the annual max into the remaining five paychecks for the calendar year? It will be difficult to tolerate the amount being taken out, but I will need surgery sometime soon. It makes sense to max it out, correct?

    • Cat

      yes, do it if you can swing it, you never lose those tax-advantaged HSA funds.

      (I’m assuming you’re newly employed rather than just deciding to change plans in open enrollment, right? If that’s the case your new plan would typically go into effect Jan 1).

    • Brunette Elle Woods

      If you can swing it and you know you’ll use the entire amount then it makes sense. Find out if the amount can roll over and confirm when you’ll get the surgery. You’ll be paying for it either way so even though your paychecks will be smaller, you’re not really losing any money.

      • edj3

        Brunette, HSAs always roll over, they’re ours and carry from the job to job (as long as the next job also has an HSA, otherwise they’re still ours, we just can’t add to them). I love my HSA, best way for prepping for health costs if I ever get to retire.

    • Digby

      A couple of considerations: will your employer allow you to max out your contrib in these remaining pay periods? Their benefit admin/payroll system might not be able to accommodate it. Also, the IRS has a rule that you can contribute the max this year even if you’re only covered by an HDHP for a partial year, but only if you’re also covered by an HDHP for all of next year. So if you switch to a non-HDHP in 2022, you could end up with an overcontribution for 2021.

    • anon

      I haven’t bought any recently, but my go-to wool pant for many years was Theory, which was also unlined and $$$ (I always bought at the outlet where they were less). It’s unfortunately pretty common among higher end brands, I’ve noticed.

  4. pugsnbourbon

    I’m hanging by a thread, counting the days to vacation, and our dog sitter just canceled due to an emergency. Odds are slim to none I’ll find a replacement before we’re due to leave. Happy Monday!

    • Veronica Mars

      Can you drop off your pup at a boarding place? There are some really nice ones now that have lots of play time and snuggles built in. Hang in there!

    • Anonymous

      Is there something wrong with your dog? Rover usually has loads near me. Can your sitter recommend someone? Call your vet and ask too. Neighborhood FB group? Kennels.

      • Anonymous

        Ugh sorry rough pre caffeine phrasing. High needs would have been better than wrong!

      • pugsnbourbon

        She’s just old and doesn’t get along with other dogs.
        I mean there’s plenty wrong with her but those are the big things :)

        • Anon

          Call some of your local rescue organizations. They often know of folks with strong pet skills who do this kind of work.

      • Anon

        Same here. Our vet only has four spaces for boarding dogs and they don’t advertise it as a service they offer, but the vet techs at our vet truly love animals and gave our dogs great care when we had to drop them off there due to a family emergency, when we couldn’t get a dogsitter. Maybe worth a try, OP?

    • X

      Vet techs from my local vet are always willing to watch my dog for some extra money. Might be worth a call. They even helped me out with daily dog walks when I broke a few bones…

    • Saguaro

      Also try a post on your local/neighborhood FB or Next Door. You can probably get a neighborhood tween or teen to do this!

    • pugsnbourbon

      Thanks for talking me off the ledge all – I’ve got some calls in to different folks.

  5. anon for this

    I’m leaving my big law job after 7 years. I’ve had the same assistant for all 7 years and she’s great. Should I give her a parting gift and if so, what? Typically I give her a cash Christmas gift (last year it was $400) and then a smaller birthday gift (maybe $50) and admin assistant day gift (same).

  6. Anon

    i am in a role where i have lots of one-on-one video meetings with clients/patients (think like the way a therapist would, though that is not actually my job). i find myself yawning when tired (i have two little kids and am often tired), which i feel like is rude to the client and might make them feel like they are boring me or something and I don’t want them to think my yawn is in response to something they are saying. any tips to prevent myself from yawning? or something to say to indicated that i am still very focused/interested in what they are saying

    • Veronica Mars

      People are rarely staring directly at the person they’re meeting with, in my experience. I’d just cover your mouth when you yawn.

    • AnonATL

      I find that taking a deep nose breath right when I feel a yawn helps. At minimum it helps me keep my mouth closed instead of a big open mouth yawn.

    • Anonymous

      I admit I would be troubled if I were paying to meet with a professional one on one, and the person kept yawning through our meeting. I wouldn’t think I was boring. It’s that I know that people who are yawning aren’t present with me, and why am I paying you if you aren’t able to be “on” and focus.

      As for not yawning: fresh air, and lots of it. Vigorous movement between meetings, to get your blood pumping. Take meetings standing up rather than sitting down. Make sure your room isn’t stuffy or too warm.

      And, whatever changes are possible to get more sleep.

      • Cat

        Yes a yawn here or there is NBD but lots of them would be troubling, like are you really awake and focusing?

        Fresh air, stretching, taking a deep breath when you feel one coming, and if you must yawn, perhaps you can try to hide it by “taking a sip of coffee” — far easier to do this over video than in person!

      • Anon

        You know that people who are yawning aren’t present with you? How does that work?

    • Anonymous

      If you’re consistently yawning, that’s a sign something isn’t right. Do you need more sleep? Better sleep? I use a Cpap and daytime sleepiness completely disappeared. I’d take this seriously. If I were the customer/patient seeing someone yawn would make me feel like they’ve completely checked out. Otherwise, maybe fewer meetings back to back and more movement in between.

      • Anon

        I would assume it’s the two young kids. Wish mine had a snooze button in the middle of the night.

    • Anonymous

      I bite down when I need to yawn and it would be rude to. Relaxing the bite is ALMOST as good as a yawn.

      Or you could pretend to drop something and lean over and yawn off camera. Or pretend someone is off camera, say excuse me and stand up, yawn, sit down and say sorry about that.

  7. Anonymous

    Morning Hive – I’ve decided to re do my resume by month end (I keep musing about leaving but obviously need that first!). I was recruited for this job via a former co worker, so I haven’t had an updated resume for 5+ years. I’m a lawyer in private practice. Any good templates out there? Anything to avoid? For a lawyer with 10 years practice, do I still need to stick to one page? My law schools career services office is notoriously horrible so I am overwhelmed by Google now…

    • Anonymous

      I easily fit 10 years lawyer experience on one page but up to 2 is tolerable. Also, you do not need until the end of the month. Bang out a rough draft tonight.

      • Cat

        +1

        You’re being recruited now but are giving yourself 3 full weeks before submitting your resume? Girl, get it in ASAP, November and December can be a hiring wasteland given other year-end priorities!

        One page should be enough if you’ve had 2-3 legal jobs in 10 years. I’d say 95% of the resumes I review (for positions targeting people with 7-10 years experience) are still on 1 page.

        • Cat

          OH sorry I think I misread the recruitment point. Thought you were being recruited now, not for your current job. But point stands about applying ASAP for anything appealing, as things then tend to freeze over until Feb. or so…

    • Anon

      avoid most complex templates with too many columns, fonts, etc. simple is best. think about what types of roles you plan on applying to and talk about your skills/accomplishments in a way that illustrate your transferable skills that are relevant for the roles you are seeking. remember that your resume is not meant to include everything you’ve ever done in life, but the experiences that are most recent/relevant

    • Anon

      I have the resume as a 1-pager and then a supplemental page of representative work (aka a deal list); I’ve seen litigators with reported cases on theirs. I think that the more senior you get, the more it’s sufficient to say on a resume, Litigation Partner at Wachtell and that is really sufficient (esp. if you can say Capital Partner vs Income Partner), but the more junior your role or if it’s not clear what your role at your company/firm does, you need to spend more resume lines spelling it out.

    • anon

      I am out 13 years and my resume is 2 pages. It’s fine to have 2 pages assuming you have legit and meaningful experience to fill it.

    • AugNon

      a knowledgeable legal headhunter told me you get your second page at 10 years, so that’s what I’ve been doing (currently ~16 years out). When revising, keep in mind that at your level your achievements/responsibilities while working post-school should be the focus. I like the advice and models at ask a manager . com (remove spaces) and assume that the folks reading are going to be more conservative/stody than most, so nothing too creative.

    • Anon

      This depends on your exact experience, education, and what you do outside of work. If it benefits you to highlight a top-flight education, which can include an undergraduate degree in a particular area (e.g., you’re in technology transfers and you’re an engineer) or Law Review, then use a two-column format. Small, left column gets education, Law Review, bar admissions; right column is your resume.

      The length of your resume is determined by a lot of factors. Your resume will be longer if you had a career before law school, switched specialties within law but in a way that might be helpful to the job you want, or have a lot of high-level activities outside of law that are worth highlighting.

    • No Face

      Similar level of experience, and I have 2 pages now. The first 1.5 pages is for legal experience, with specific victories identified under each job. (“First-chaired jury trial in jurisdiction before Judge So and So, resulting in X” or “Independently obtained $X arbitration award for [industry] client in [practice area] case” but better written). The last half page is education, board memberships and leadership positions, etc.

      • Anonymous

        Interesting i find this level of Detail odd. Never see it from applicants and don’t need to

        • anon

          I’m curious then what you want to see on a resume? For in-house, I want to see quantified recoveries, the value of the business they support, whether they are working on $5k or $1.5m contracts, etc. I am struggling to envision a useful resume without this information but I am open to the possibility!

        • No Face

          I am selective about where I apply, but I get interviews with about 85% of the time with this style of resume. The victories allow me to pick out the cases that are directly relevant to the job post, and add in the relevant keywords. My interviews ask me follow up questions about the highlighted cases, which gives me an easy way to brag and tell interesting stories. People love it.

    • Anon

      Hiring lawyer here and I don’t read past page 1 – I mean, I’ll glance, but I presume you’re not great at editing. It’s a marketing document, not your permanent file. That said, a resume has never been the make it or break it document either.

  8. Anon

    Wanted to post my review of the Nine West “Relaxed Crop Pull-On Pants” at Kohls, which a reader here had recommended. I ordered three pairs – the houndstooth print, the plaid print, and a solid maroon color. I am wearing the houndstooth pair right now and they are very comfy, warm (without being too warm) for this crisp October day, and while I am full-time permanent WFH, it feels kind of nice to be wearing pants I can wear outside the house without any self-consciousness. The pants also have real pockets (which arrive sewn shut if you prefer not to use them) which I always appreciate. I used to work in a casual office and these would have been perfectly appropriate for office wear with the right shoes and top – they feel much more informal than they look, and actually my husband asked me why I was “dressed up” today when I came downstairs. I will say, however, that I ordered the XL Short (because I’m short, 5’4″) and they are true ankle-length, hitting right at the anklebone. I wear slippers at home all day and live in a warmer part of the country, so the ankle exposure isn’t a big deal for me, but it may be for some. If I’d ordered the regular length I imagine they would cover my ankles.

  9. Resume Q

    Adding to the resume questions today – I’ve been putting out applications with little success lately and am wondering if my weird job title is part of the problem. In the backend HR system at my company my title is “Director, department” but the front facing title is different and specific to my industry (to use askamanager lingo it’s like “Commander of the Realm, Teapot Acquisition” instead of “Director, Teapot Acquisition”). Since that’s the title I generally use, it’s on my resume/linkedin, but I’m wondering if it’s confusing to HR screeners at other companies and I should either say “Director” or “Director (Commander of the Realm)” or “Commander of the Realm (Director)”? Thoughts? I’m a little hesitant to just use “Director” in case it gets to the reference stage, since that’s not title anyone really uses in my office.

    • No Face

      I would put Director in parenthesis, so that the correct keywords are in your resume. You can always explain during an interview.

      • Anon

        I’d do the opposite- working title in parens, and I’d updated LinkedIn by saying Director, (working title Commander of the Realm)

    • Ribena

      I have in the past used different titles on LinkedIn to my internal title. The audiences are totally different so of course it’s okay to use different words. I often notice people whose bio lines on LinkedIn are filled with internal jargon (“WL programme at HBG”) and wonder who they’ve written them for.

      • Anon

        This. Nobody outside my company would understand what my role is based on my company title. Also during interviews, I prefer when applicants describe their role rather than use their company title. E.g. one of my past role was called Category Manager as I was managing marketing activities for group of products/brands from same category. However, in real life outside my company, Category Manager refers to completely different job.
        I would use titles that will allow recruiters to identify you properly via their search.

  10. Job prospect at Facebook

    Any insights on what it’s like to interview and work at Facebook? It wouldn’t be the legal or software side of things if that makes a difference. The role I’m applying for is at the manager level and has a remote option (I’m located in the Midwest). I wouldn’t be interested in relocating to the West Coast. Working for a FAANG would be a huge shift for me as a career consultant, but the job seems to be perfectly tailored to my skills and I’m intrigued by the potential compensation bump. Absolutely any insights or advice you can share would be appreciated.

    • Anon

      My brother said it was the most disorganized company he ever worked for and left quickly. That said, it paid well.

      • Anon

        My husband has a friend/former coworker who just did a little over a year at Facebook as a developer and had a fairly terrible experience. In his words, “it’s like they’re still trying to figure out how to be a business” which shouldn’t be the case, as they are well past the start-up phase. I would also be wary about any promises regarding permanent remote employment, because my husband’s friend (who started in August of 2020) was originally told he would be permanently remote – then was told a few months later, maybe not, we may want you to relocate to an office. Then was told that was off; then right before he left was told the relocation was maybe possibly back on. Like most of us humans, he needs some kind of predictability in his employment situation, so he left.

      • Nesprin

        They pay well, throw almost infinite benefits at their workers (1 yr paternity leave, laundry service, all the food you can imagine) and expect to own your soul.
        While pay bump is real, is hard to describe how expensive Menlo Park/Palo Alto is – Manhattan is maybe comparable.

    • Anonymous

      Have you read the news lately? All reports suggest that Facebook is lurching from crisis to crisis and that leadership is bloated, unresponsive, and defensive. Anecdotally, I hear people are jumping ship and not just because Facebook lacks ethics, but because their potential futures there feel chaotic.

    • Anon

      A friend was one of the first 100 employees there and left a while ago so the culture has probably changed a lot, but he said it was typical bro-y Silicon Valley, long hours, questionable ethics and privacy standards( no surprise, right?!). He bragged to us about having access to private data like who viewed whose profile, and he said all employees regularly looked up this data for their friends and family members out of curiosity. (This actually was useful for me – when my ex-boyfriend got a job at Facebook a few years ago I was very careful not to creep on his profile because I knew he’d be able to see what I’d done!). At the time I don’t think my friend earned a lot by valley standards but now he’s set for life because of stock.

    • anon

      Are you sure you want to be aligned with this company? The PR hits keep coming because FB apparently doesn’t know what it’s doing and has broken the public’s trust. Repeatedly. Without much remorse, from what I can see.

      • anon

        +1 asking if you want to be aligned with this company. I disagree that FB doesn’t know what it’s doing. It knows what it’s doing, which is making lots of money. It’s just doing it in ways many of us find reprehensible and it’s only

        • Anon

          +1 there’s about 12 different reasons I wouldn’t get on this boat right now.

      • Anon

        +1. I have several friends from business school there, and they seem to have ok experiences (though high burn), but I think there are many tech companies out there that have similar pay/benefits that aren’t destroying the social fabric of our country.

        • Curious

          One note on this: it’s my understanding that Facebook actually sets the top of the pay scale in Seattle (alongside Oracle, because they, too, struggle to get people to work there). So it’s not 100% true that there are many comparable options. I’m more inclined to agree with the poster above that says they pay an extraordinary amount and offer unlimited benefits and then expect to own your soul. I know folks judge me for working at Amazon (e.g. hi Monday! someday we should get a drink because I really respect your moral clarity). But even with that, the difference in pay to go to Facebook isn’t worth the moral cost to me.

      • Anon

        Yeah I think there’s generic bad corporate profit-driven company (Amazon, Wells Fargo) and then there’s companies that are truly doing evil. Facebook is up there on the evil list for me and I don’t think I’d be able to work there. They’re destroying the social fabric of our country, as someone else put it.

    • Anonymous

      I actually work at Facebook. Acknowledging that there are serious PR issues, it treats its employees better than any other company I have heard of, possibly with the exception of Google. Having said that, I live in the Bay Area and don’t feel judged for working there because everyone here has a friend or family member working for Facebook. It might be very different in the Midwest. Frankly, we all need the income to survive here. I also don’t directly touch the products so am perhaps shielded from some of the moral issues in my day to day.

      • Alanna of Trebond

        I find this an extremely surprising response. My brother-in-law works at Facebook and he has worse hours than I do, and I am a partner at a V10 firm. What do you mean by treats its employees better than anyone else? He makes less than my sister, who works at another tech company, both fully remote.

  11. Cb

    Office decor me? I have windows but no view in my new office and two expanses of walls behind my computer. Based on the paint fading, the last person had A1 posters up which makes sense in terms of scale? I’m a political scientist, but don’t really fancy anything politically themed. Cheap and cheerful is ideal.

  12. Nightstand recs

    I have the Room and Board Hudson bed and I’m debating whether to get the nightstands that go with the bed or whether that will be too matchy matchy. Please send me your nightstand recommendations. I’m looking for something that will go with walnut and not be too bulky as the bedroom itself is not super spacious. Thanks in advance.

  13. Brow Tinting

    Light topic: several commenters here have recommended DIY brow tinting kits. I purchased a kit from Am*zon but didn’t love it – instructions were badly translated and hard to follow, the mixture was clumpy despite stirring repeatedly, the color went on scarily dark (I purchased “Golden Brown”); then after showering this morning, much of the color disappeared. Any recommendations for a better product (or application tips?).

    For reference, this is the product I bought: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XLKVZSZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    • Anon

      That’s why I get mine done at the nail salon – it’s smack in the middle of your face and can go so wrong. You’re lucky it faded on you instead of staying scary dark.

    • Anon

      I use Godefroy. 1000 hour is another reputable brand. It seems like you used a henna product which is different from traditional hair dyes, so maybe that’s why you had unusual results?

      • Anon

        I use 1000 hour and like it, but I don’t know how it is with lighter shades. I agree that henna is a whole different thing.

      • Anon

        +1 for Godefroy. I outline my brows with vaseline, then put the color on the tails for 5 minutes, then color in the rest for 3. My tails are very sparse and I’m looking for the color to dye the top layer of my skin in that case. If you have actual hair but it’s blonde, leaving on for 3-4 min total should be sufficient. Another tip is that the colors can be mixed. If a brown is too warm, add Graphite to cool it down. The color stays on at an acceptable level for about 10 days though a little comes off each day.

        I ended up using an old cream jar to empty the color “pills” into and then mixing a little in the plastic bowl with a small amount of developer until it’s creamy. Each pill has WAY too much color for one application.

    • Anon

      I color my own hair and just use a q-tip to tint my brows at the same time using the same color (dark brown for reference). I typically just leave the brows on for 5-6 minutes. I have heard that a men’s beard coloring kit works well for this, but have not tried it myself.

      • Anon

        I have tried Just for Men and it’s fine. I like that you don’t have to mix and the gel is easy to work with. I still haven’t gotten a great color match, I need a very ashy brown and they tend to lean warm (I tried their three darkest browns); maybe combining with a little black would work. My biggest issue with it is the color only stays on for a couple of days. With the ease of application maybe it’s worth it reapplying like makeup that stays on after a shower but I’ve never gotten into the habit (probably because I also don’t use makeup every day).

      • Anonymous

        Yep, quip with clariol root touch up. Buy at the drug store, takes about 10 minutes while I am watching tv on Sunday night.

    • Anon

      No but if you have a Benefit Brow Bar (either freestanding or within an Ulta) near you, I highly recommend them. It looks natural on me.

    • Anon

      Don’t use henna, use a product that’s been reputable and used for many years. I’ve had great success with Godefroy Hair Color Kit for Spot Coloring, Covers Up Gray Hairs Application Kit

      • AZCPA

        Henna is “reputable” and been in use for hundreds of years. I much prefer it for brows since permanent color bleaches out my natural brow color, so when I’m due to a touch up, they look even worse than if I never colored them. Henna fades naturally so I don’t have that issue. And it last longer, so I only have to do them once a month or so.

        I use the kit you bought and love it. Henna needs time to absorb the water, so I mix, leave for 5 minutes and then stir again. It goes very smooth. Yes it’s dark when it goes on, but every hair or brown color I’ve ever seen does the same, so don’t find it alarming.

        Make sure your brows are clean and not oily or lotioned. I apply with a tiny brush like you’d apply wet eyeliner. I do a coat, wait 10 minutes, apply another coat, wait 10 minutes, then a third coat and wait (so 30 minutes processing time total). I remove with a cotton pad and oil or lotion, then shower or wash my face as normal.

    • Anon

      My recommendation would be don’t buy things like that from Amazon! Of course it’s going to be sketchy.

  14. Anon

    From the “you can’t make this up” files…I’m on vacation this week and my out of office response refers people to my manager for urgent matters. I’m also interviewing for an internal position. A secretary on the team I’m interviewing with emailed me about scheduling a follow up interview and when she saw my out of office reply she… contacted my manager!! Fortunately my manager is a very easygoing guy and I suspect we’ll laugh about this soon but good lord. use your brain woman.

  15. Need a small business lawyer in Massachusetts

    Does anyone have a recommendation for a lawyer or law firm in Massachusetts to represent the seller in a sale of shares in a small tech business?

    Sale is between founders, super friendly, and purchase price will be small, but it’d be nice to get everything tied up cleanly.

  16. Anon

    Any thoughts on how LL Bean pants run? I met the dimensions for a size 10, but feel that my stomach / hip / generous thighs may make it hard to ballpark whether I should also order a 12. Also, I have a very high natural waist, so the rise is almost never right. I haven’t ordered bottoms from LL Bean in ages, but hey have some “fleece lined camp pants” that sound divine and cozy (I run cold; these will be house pants for me since I hate wrestling on leggings and dog-walking pants). FWIW, they are having a sale that ends today — 10% off with a code.

    • Anon

      It sounds like you have a measuring tape so look at the garment dimensions instead of the size chart and compare them to a pair of pants you already own that fit you the way you like. If you can’t find the garment dimensions on the website you can call them to ask.

      • Anon

        “Pants that you already own that fit you the way you like” is the white whale I keep chasing. It exists? For some of you out there?

    • Cat

      they have good customer service. Either call them or live chat. If you determine you need to order two sizes, ask if they’ll waive the return shipping fee.

  17. Anon

    I’ve been thinking of that expression “no one can take advantage of you without your permission” and wondering what I should have done in a situation that happened to me.

    A friend from my friend circle was in a bind when the only bathroom in her condo got flooded and she needed a place to stay for a “couple of nights” while her insurance had contractors in to fix it. This was just before the pandemic and her insurance would pay for a hotel, but there was a big conference in town and no close-in hotel rooms available. So I said of course and moved my oldest child into my other child’s room and the friend stayed in our child’s bedroom, which is what we do when we have overnight guests because we don’t have a guest room.

    A couple of nights turned into 10 total nights and it was already way too much by about the 4th night. Friend kept telling me the contractors weren’t done yet and kept saying it would be one or two more days. My husband was annoyed, my kids were annoyed, I felt guilty and annoyed and was trying to make peace.

    The reason this is bugging me now is that over the weekend in a friend group get-together I heard this friend sort of bragging to another friend that when her insurance had sent the contractors in, she negotiated with the contractors to get her entire bathroom remodeled and she paid the difference between that and the repair part.

    When I heard that I really felt taken advantage of and suddenly understood why a couple of nights had turned into 10.

    But honestly, what would you have done in my situation?

    • Anon

      IDK — a lot of my life has been learning about what to do next time since it is so hard to get a read on things when they go sideways mid-stream (e.g., let kiddo have a friend over for an outside playdate; friend’s mom (new friend, we don’t know mom; just texted before) drops off kid almost an hour late and is almost 2 hours late picking up kiddo; would have been fine if kid didn’t have a youth group meeting to get to, but why even mention plans 2 hours after the playdate is over? now we know for this friend and this friend’s mom, there needs to be a lot more talking and knowing that we could become defacto sitters).

      Mid-stream course correction for you could have been: Friend, it’s a school/work night and we need to get back to our normal routines after 4 nights; could you find a new place for tonight? And then I’d raise with “and Susannah can’t sleep with Phoebe in there with her, so she’ll be back in her room tonight and we’ll make you a nice place on the couch / floor / backyard tent” if she drags her feet at all. Then the tuba lessons start.

      • Anon

        I guess one thing is being candid on your part when things aren’t working out vs hoping they resolve on their own (if I wait one more day she’ll be gone and I can avoid an uncomfortable conversation). I know some of us are people-pleasers, but the people to please are the ones who live with you for whom this isn’t working, so err on the side of them vs the stranger (I’d say guest, but a guest who ovestays a welcome is not a guest). Maybe that is a take-away for the next time something happens and the back of your mind knows this but the front of your mind wants to avoid it.

    • anon

      Not let her stay in my house. Especially to displace one of my kids. Sorry, but no. She could have found a hotel room, just not the one she wanted.

      • Anon

        I feel like it is easy to open the door to out-of-town guests b/c they have a return ticket booked or something to get back to (at my age/stage, it’s usually work or kids’ school or to get a pet from boarding). Local guests . . . not so much. Maybe be double-sure that there is an exit plan (like my reservation at the Hampton Inn starts on Monday)? It’s easy to trouble-shoot the past; the future never comes out according to plan.

    • Anonymous

      Uh wow. I don’t think you did anything wrong here. Your friend lied to you! How would you have possibly realized the repair had turned into a remodel?

    • anonshmanon

      In hindsight, I might have told her to look for a hotel room at day 4 or 5 (big conferences do end). But it’s a hard thing to do, to feel like you are ‘kicking out’ a friend. You didn’t know at the time how she was using you. Don’t beat yourself up about a situation where you made a decision with incomplete information.
      As to “no one can take advantage of you without your permission” for a general rule – nope. It’s great to empower people and remind them that they have agency. But this absolute saying leaves no room for situations where people are being manipulated or are between a rock and a hard place, and it can end up piling on shame for people who are already unhappy in their situation.

      • Anon

        True — there is a bad guy here and it’s the overstaying guest. If you look at it from the perspective of the person with the least agency, the displaced kid, giver her a bigger voice next time (and use yours) but you aren’t the villain here. “Friend” could have avoided all this.

      • Anonymous

        And this situation is a great example of why that phrase is a thing! She wasn’t between a rock and a hard place. Hotels exist.

      • Anon

        It’s an expression, not a law of physics, ergo, it’s not always true.

        People who take advantage of other people plan out how to do it. They might not think of it in those terms, but they have their plan going in and their targets are always two steps behind.

        • Anon

          Totally. Assume with some people that you may be in the dark about something. Good people don’t do this or are at least candid.

        • Anon

          This comment, along with the whole thread, is very illuminating. I had a somewhat comparable situation with a neighbor 10 years (!) ago, and they made me feel like the bad guy for putting my foot down after a certain point. Now that I know these neighbors better, I’m realizing this is a pattern of behavior/entitlement and while there are different perspectives, I didn’t do anything wrong.

          • Anon

            I’m OP and I agree it’s an entitlement thing. My former friend now acquaintance (thanks for that, downthread!) is very entitled, which is something that obviously became more apparent in hindsight. I mean, before the houseguest situation she was certainly entitled in certain ways, they just didn’t affect me as directly.

            You and I both need to learn to speak up though. I was raised with a southern sensibility about being a gracious, generous host, but there are limits. (I’m not in the south but have a southern parent)

          • Anon

            My comment about other people planning was obliquely much broader than just taking advantage of people. I learned this the hard way, watching family members plot, scheme, lie themselves blue in the face, and then yank the rug out from some poor soul whose only problem was ever trusting them.

            One of my husband’s family members is infamous for wrecking family reunions and events by scheming beforehand how to twist a normal situation into humiliation. There’s this feeling of not knowing what you did wrong; you just sat down to dinner! Then you figure out that sitting down to dinner is the problem, because she had it all planned out how the dinner conversation was going to be awful.

            The OP’s acquaintance doesn’t sound quite this bad. It’s just important to understand when people do this, that feeling of being two steps behind is normal: someone went through deliberate effort and planning to put you there.

    • Anonymous

      What would I have done? Exactly what you did. And I’d have learned, like you did, what my family could tolerate. Then I’d be wondering what I’d do if a similar situation came up again. I could offer, ‘Why don’t you stay with us tonight; that will give you time to find a hotel room, even if it’s further out…” or “why don’t you stay with us until the last day of the conference, then you can move into a hotel…” But what if it was easier for her not to make that hotel arrangement and leave? Would i have the oomph to “kick out” a friend who was staying with me, and asking to stay a couple days longer? That’s a tough one.

      The likelihood is that you won’t be facing something like this again.

      • Anon

        This having to negotiate and renegotiate is why I’m guessing it will just be easier to say no to the next person (and always no to this “friend”). Also, having a local visitor displacing kids is not fun (vs cousins visiting for xmas break) for your family, so that season in your life may be on hold for now; it’s not like people are in grad school and are content to sleep on a couch; a room with a door is living large at the expense of others in this case.

      • Anon

        This is OP. Just about the only thing I said to her was about 4 days in, commenting that the conference was over and hotel rooms were probably easier to get now. She didn’t take the hint at the time and now I think it’s because insurance wouldn’t pay for a hotel for the voluntary remodeling portion of the work.

        I guess I also asked at one time why she hadn’t stayed with her closer friend because then they could have commuted together, and even that felt kind of rude for me to say, but it was when she was mildly complaining about the time staying at my house added to her commute.

        In hindsight it’s all a disaster!

    • Wise friend

      What I would have done is ask a lot of questions…to ensure I understand thd friend’s situation and whether they have any other options before I agree to let them stay. I know there is always risk of delay in contractor projects. “How do you know it will only be 4 days?” “Is that the estimate they gave you?…”what about the hotel that is a little further away – did you call them?” I know, seems like a lot but often, these questions help the requester find an alternative. So I will agree to something like this if the friend truly has no other options. Live and learn.

    • Cat

      “Will insurance pay for a comparable Airbnb? There’s tons in my neighborhood.”

    • Anon

      “Will insurance pay for a comparable Airbnb? There’s tons in my neighborhood.”

    • anon

      I wouldn’t done the same thing as you. Your friend sounds manipulative. She was shady and not upfront with you when you were going out of your way to do a nice thing. I would have a hard time getting over that, too.

      • anon

        Ugh, I would’ve handled the situation the same way as you did. Sorry, I can’t type today.

        • Anon

          Around day 7 we asked her to make a plan to leave and kept getting the “almost done, couple more days” and then when I finally came home from work on day 10 she was gone and I think I did a little dance.

          • Anon

            I suspect the contractors were telling her the same thing (“almost done, just another day!”). That doesn’t mean she didn’t take advantage of you, but I’m just not hearing where you told her “this isn’t working out for us, my kid needs her bedroom back, what’s the soonest you can find another place to stay?”

    • No Face

      She gets downgraded from friend to acquaintance. The best way to avoid getting taken advantage is to be careful about who your friends are. I like being generous and having generous friends!

      With good people, I think about what I can offer, without resentment. If you don’t have a guest room, you don’t have to offer to house people. I enjoy having overnight guests and I have a guest room, so I could have a friend stay for 10 days. BUT there are people I love dearly who will never spend the night at my house for various reasons.

      • blueberries

        +1 way better to downgrade this person to acquaintance than to beat yourself up over what you could have done better. A good friend does not take advantage like this and there’s no reason to displace your child to host an acquaintance.

    • Anonymous

      I would have let her stay through the conference and then said “now that the conference is over and the reno looks like it’s going to take a while, would you mind getting a hotel room?”

      Also, it’s possible that the reno didn’t add much/any time to things depending on what needed to happen for the repair anyway. Sometimes it’s just upgrading the stuff and the demo has to be done anyway.

    • Curious

      I prefer the expression “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” She’s shown you who she is. If you let her take advantage of you again, sure, you have some blame. But not so much the first time.

    • Ellen

      Your freind sounds like a sponge, sponging off of you. Your husband should have thrown her out after day 3, as you are to timid to do so yourself. That is the trouble we have. We are to soft with other women, and we need our boyfreinds / husbands to do the dirty work for us. I wish I had a steady boyfreind, but all I have now are guys who I meet in Whole Foods who will hang out, and occasionally chill over with a movie, but nothing beyond that lasts after we hang out. FOOEY!

    • Anon

      I am sort of chuckling at the thought of LL Bean as a brand with lots of fashion influencers. I feel like “it’s LL Bean! Fit will be a little boxy, like something that Kathy Bates would do well with. It will neither be cool nor uncool but will be with you for 10-30-60 years, so make sure it is something you like.” Kicking myself for washing my LL Bean sweaters in hot water and then putting them in the dryer when I was in high school — I’m sure I’d be wearing that stuff still. Instead, I am slowly rebuying pieces (can highly recommend the fleece-lined fairisle sweater). I had the barn jacket and it wore out after 15 years and we were business formal at work so I didn’t replace but did get a down sweater coat that I love. I feel like I should have gotten a M vs a S (hips have not gotten smaller with age), but it is solid and good quality for the $.

    • Go for it

      I don’t have the coat but I’m averse to flannel lined things because if I wear a sweater or a fleece under them it sticks coming on and off

      • Coach Laura

        Go for it – Almost all barn coats (LLBean, Eddie Bauer, LandsEnd) all have flannel lining, except the sleeves, which are nylon to get on and off. This one does too. (Source – have had barn coats from each of these places.)

    • Anon

      I don’t have the barn coat but I have the LL Bean Quilted Riding Jacket. It’s about 7 years old in a tan color they no longer make and I get tons of compliments on it. I’ve had other women ask me if it’s Burberry (which in my mind it’s obviously not… but I guess to some people it looks similar). It’s also magically always the right temperature, whether it’s 30 degrees out or 60 – it’s truly mind boggling to me. To my eye, the Barn jacket you’re looking at is a little dowdy and I’d probably just go for a [on sale or consignment] Barbour coat if that was the look I was going for! But quality, I’d have zero concerns about.

      • Anonymous

        Dowdy but functional and classic is my aesthetic so no worries there :)

    • anon.

      I had this coat in 1995 and wish I hadn’t gotten rid of it. It was truly all the rage.

  19. Anon

    Ugh — why are the legs of jogger style pants so short? I am only 5-4 but considering ordering talls b/c I don’t like a cuff that hits at mid-calf. A few sit-down stand-ups and they try to march up my lower leg so they are more like . . . knickers? Something that would be an outfit fail even in The Villages? A cuffed capri? I want the cuff to be on my ankle. Winter is coming!

    • MagicUnicorn

      Order the talls!

      I did that per a rec here and the joggers are perfect. Not saggy or bunchy, but just normal full-length so my ankles don’t get cold.

      • Anon

        Ha as if there are tall sizes for more than 5% of pants out there, says the lifelong tall person.

    • test run

      I’m 5’10 and basically don’t own any joggers for this reason. The one pair I have are men’s champion sweatpants – they are the first pair that actually hit at my ankle and just barely.

  20. How to style joggers?

    With all the comments about joggers lately, I thought i’d ask for everyone’s tips for how you all style joggers so you wear them out in public without looking like you’ve given up on looking put together? I’ve grown to love my comfy pants and TBH I probably have given up on my bottom half, but I’d like to look like I made an effort with my top half!

    • Anonymous

      I wear joggers with a jean jacket or sweater. Jo-Lynne Shane and Susie Wright both style the Vuori joggers with jean jackets on their blogs, if you are looking for examples.

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