Can a younger woman network with older men without getting into questionable situations? My friend J told me of her interesting dilemma over the weekend…
She’s traveling a lot for business these days, and on one of her latest trips she sat next to an older businessman. She’s generally against talking to her seatmates, but wanted to have a bit of chitchat before she made him move to let her go to the bathroom — and she discovered that he’s the Chairman of the Board of a huge non-profit foundation (like, huge). They exchanged business cards when they got off the plane. Great contact to have, right?
Later that night, the text messages started. They were friendly at first (to which she replied warily), then turned slightly suspicious (to which she increased her delay before responding, then finally stopped responding all together). They’re no longer in the same town, but the question that’s left is: can she still network with this contact, or should he and his possibly less-than-pure motives be left in the dust? Call me an opportunist, but I’d hate to throw away a potential networking contact like that just because the guy was a bit skeevy. We’ve talked about how to handle it when a potential client hits on you, as well as how to network when you’re the low man on the totem pole, but not necessarily when a potential mentor/networking contact hits on you.
I’ve been in the situation myself, although in my case I think my defenses went up too soon — I vividly remember being asked “So what do you want?” when I took an older gentleman to lunch when I was around 23 (he practiced in a specialty I wanted to get into). Nothing but advice, I answered honestly, but I somehow still felt a bit dirty. I made sure that the next time I asked an older gentleman out to lunch (this time an adjunct professor whose specialty I was dying to get into), that I had a male classmate there with me at the lunch.
In my friend’s situation, though — this VIP could open a number of interesting doors to her. He’s a successful businessman with lots of contacts, and through his work with this big foundation he has even more contacts. His advice would undoubtedly be invaluable, and a very successful older friend is never a bad thing to have — you never know who will hear about the next big career opportunity. But how can she manage the relationship so it’s clear that she’s not interested in funny business?
For my $.02:
– I think the relationship needs to be managed the right way from the start. One of my female mentors (who came up when there were few women in senior positions) noted that she generally encouraged a “father/daughter” relationship.
– Know a bit about flirting so that you DON’T do it — simple things like
- shake hands with him (businesslike — firm handshake, ladies!) as soon as you exchange names
- do not touch his arm or encourage physical closeness of any sort (for example: don’t show him your phone or magazine in a way that might make you two huddle together)
- watch your eye contact — I’ve heard that “business” eye contact is between the eyes and nosebridge; “friend” eye contact is between the eyes, nose, and mouth, whereas “dating” eye contact involves, um, lower eye contact. Also, watch the duration of your eye contact.
- perhaps put something between you and him — casually put your purse on your lap, or even an in-flight magazine.
- don’t seem too interested in his personal life
– As a “rainmaking litigation partner at a Biglaw firm” noted in comments a while back, “There is typically an inverse corrolation [sic] between the female summer associates that I want to date and the ones I want to hire. The qualities in the ones I want to hire are: hard-working, thorough, intuitive, and detail-oriented. The qualities in the ones I want to date are: flirtatious, spontaneous, and fun. Know which category you want to find yourself in and act accordingly.”
– Shut him down quickly if it goes there. “I’m flattered by the attention, but not interested like that.” This is better done sooner rather than later.
– Realistically assess when to abort if the attentions continue. What do you really want from this guy, and how many awkward conversations are you willing to endure to get there? In my friend J’s case, I might suggest first studying the VIP’s resume (which should be publicly available, at least on the foundation’s website), and sending an email — from whatever email address is on her resume — to say it was nice to meet him, and then asking direct questions toward things she’d like to know from his background. E.g.: “After perusing your profile on the ___ website, I noticed that you had moved from <Field X> to <Field Y> — I’m interested in making a similar switch myself, and would greatly appreciate any advice you have on that point. Did you join any organizations, or find any reading materials to be particularly helpful?” And if his response is still a bit questionable — well, move on.
Readers, what are your thoughts? What would you do in this situation — would you try to salvage the contact or move on? What is your best advice for how to network with older men?
someone posted about wanting a pink blazer this weekend. I just saw a short news cap about the Casey Anthony case (what a mess) and the female prosecutor had a beautiful pink blazer on this Saturday. I couldn’t see what else she was wearing but I have to say I’m now on the pink blazer bandwagon. Her’s was somewhat bright yet still seemed professional and not too old lady (or too young)
Hey that was me. Still searching. The ones from Talbots looked horrible in person — very flimsy/wrinkly/old-ladyish on the rack, which suggests would be impossible to keep fresh-looking. If you do an image search for pink jacket and Sarah Palin, one of the first results is a paper doll drawing that is kind of the look I’m going for.
I might be wrong, but my instinct says questionable late night text messages mean this man is not taking her seriously, and in my mind, there is little opportunity to network here.
Am I the only one who finds text messaging generally inappropriate in professional life? I would never text someone with whom I was hoping to network. It seems just as invasive as a telephone call on a personal cell phone after hours.
I agree. Perhaps I am a dinosaur, but I don’t think texting is appropriate for business. Send an email!
This was going to be my exact comment!
devil’s advocate: is an email really that different from a text this day in age? I mean, they both go to my phone, and I’m going to get both pretty much instantaneously. It’s gotten to the point where sometimes I honestly have to I’m assuming texts were on the person’s work blackberry/other phone since the post says they exchanged business cards–I wouldn’t have my personal cell # on a business card.
Unfortunately for a lot of us, many firms require that our cell phone number be on our business card.
I agree too. Late night text messages (or flirty emails) = interest in fling, not business contact. I would probably add his linked in profile to keep the contact and then try to break off contact.
I agree. I think this particular older gentleman is a lost cause. Move on.
And I have no clue why this woman would give her cell phone number to him in the first place! Maybe I’m a fuddy duddy as well, but maybe that contributed to his getting the wrong message?
I agree – ALWAYS carry business cards and use those to network. Never give out your cellphone number. It’s unprofessional.
Here’s the thing… you only have a business card if you’re employed, and even then you might not have one. I don’t.
I understand what you’re trying to convey, but last fall when I was unemployed, I had to give out my cellphone. I don’t have a home number and I wanted to be able to be reached regarding employment at all times, even if that meant I was standing in line at the drycleaners.
This is slightly off-topic, but I think having business cards, perhaps especially, when you are looking for work and doing a lot of networking, is very important. You can have very simple ones made, for free or for not very much at places like Vista Print dot com, listing your basic contact information, even if that info is just your cell phone. It makes it much easier for someone to get in touch with you and projects a much more professional image.
Having business cards printed up during my stint of unemployment was KEY. I had my email, cell, and website printed on it in addition to my “professional” title. My website is built like a resume. If I hadn’t had the site I would have put in my LinkedIn profile.
I found my new job via a contact I met at a professional association meeting. I was able to give them my card after I introduced myself. They “tested me out” with some contract work, yada yada yada, and I’m now part of the firm.
Of course I don’t credit the business card solely, but it certainly helped. Since job-hunting can be a full time job in and of itself, business cards just make sense.
Get a Google Voice Account. You will get a number that you can use to forward to your real number. You can set it up so when the phone rings it will ring on your cell phone, another phone and your computer (you have to be set up for Google Talk). You will be emailed transcripts of calls and be able to send text messages from your computer if you wish.
It’s free, at least through the end of the year.
I assumed it was a work cell phone, listed on her card.
My firm has our cell phone #s on our business cards.
Don’t some people use their cell phone numbers/blackberries as their “real” work number? I think that my (future) firm puts people’s cell numbers right on the card.
Silicon Valley in House
I agree — at my company, mobile numbers are included on our cards. My manager and I text regularly, as do the younger members of my staff. I have never thought anything of it.
I do text with colleagues – but we have an established relationship.
My last employer required all of us to provide cell or home phone numbers on the intranet (that’s INTRA). An older man who was an internal contact would have your cell number anyway.
SF Bay Associate
Mine too – my mobile is right on my business card. One of the many reasons I am still paying for my own private cell instead of letting the firm blackberry be my only mobile phone.
And I blackberry messaged with colleagues when we were in trial prep – it’s much easier to fire off an SMS to say “need 2 more copies of Exhibit 8” than a full email.
I use a mobile number for work, but its my workphone, not my private number. Texting in itself is fine, but irrelevant texts or calls in the evening are not very businesslike.
Presumably because she was out of town and the number on her business card rings to her office? And many people who travel for work actually put their cell number on their business cards.
The no-texting comment was exactly my thought. I just don’t feel like it’s professional to text “serious business stuff” ever. I might text coworkers random friendly questions or when trying to find each other on a business trip, but if you’ve got something real to say, shouldn’t email be the medium? With blackberries, it pretty much shows up all the same and adds a small level of formality that I think is needed in any serious relationship.
I would not have even responded to those texts, and maybe just sent a reply in an email that obliquely references any serious content in the them.
You’re not a dinosaur! I’m *almost* 30 and I completely agree: text messaging is not a professional form of communication. It’s both intimate in its immediacy and distant in its lack of real verbal or thoughtfully written communication. It think it’s a slippery slope, and we just need ask Congressmen Weiner about that.
Hot dog! :-)
I agree. Sounds like it already went South.
This is such a hard topic–and very important to me, since my field is thoroughly dominated by men (thus the people you need to network with are even more majority older men than in, you know, almost every other field). The Catch-22 is that if you’re always 100% serious and totally buttoned up, you may not get invited out to the bar after hours–with a group!–at which discussions that could be very helpful take place. The young men you’re competing with are there, of course, talking about sports, dropping curse words, and fitting right in.
I don’t have any all-purpose advice other than to know what you’re dealing with as early as possible. (Other women who already know the man in question can be helpful here, but you may not have any such contacts.) I agree that late-night texts just don’t seem appropriate. But I’d still email, as professional as can be, during daylight hours, and hope he takes that opportunity to change his tone.
In my experience–and I had a senior colleague once invite me to go skinny-dipping in front of several other people–you almost never need to actually declare that you’re not interested. Averting your eyes, clearing your throat, changing the subject, excusing yourself, etc. all work just as well. The guy may very well deserve to be embarassed, but being the source of that is not going to help you in your career.
“you almost never need to actually declare that you’re not interested”
I wish something like this site had been there to warn me when I made so many avoidable mistakes…. attire and networking wise….
When networking with a person whose intentions are suspect is it at all possible to put him back on the right track?
I agree with this. In my field the most experienced and connected are older men, and I’ve found connecting with them helpful. The first interactions should be strictly on-topic, although personal topics (not sexual) are fine once the relationship is established. Emails etc should be sent/replied during work hours. It’s always 100% non-flirtatious (good pointers, Kat).
If the conversation starts to go awry, immediately return to the business at hand. Simply adjusting your posture and tone, saying “again, about the [insert the strictly business original topic here]…” should do the trick for anyone who is well-intentioned but misunderstood. If it doesn’t, they are consciously being sleazy and should be avoided.
I also agree to feel out the other women with longer tenure. I’ve learned a lot by watching who they avoid, or who they feel comfortable joking around with.
Although, I think this particular man is a loss. He’s not taking her seriously and won’t be any worth to her. If he is so bold, I’m guessing he has a reputation, and any introductions or opportunities he did provide would be eyed dubiously, and could potentially damage your friend’s reputation.
Barrister in the Bayou
My comment is not directly related… Actually, it is a reaction to Kat’s mention of a firm hand shake.
I hate it when I get the dead fish handshake from women (serious pet peeve). They offer as little hand as possible and there’s no actual “shake”. A limp hand is just placed in mine for the shortest amount of time possible and many times there’s no eye contact. I just don’t get it, it makes me feel like I’m doing something wrong by even presenting my hand. I don’t give the death grip, so I know they are not cowering away in pain.
What is it with these handshakes?
Not just from women! The dead fish handshake from anyone is disconcerting – makes me feel like the person doesn’t want to touch me and is skeeved out by the idea, or possibly thinks they’re better than me and can’t be bothered to expend the energy for a proper handshake. Either way, ew.
I agree – I don’t get what women-or men- think they are doing with a limp handshake. I am a very firm hand-shaker, so much so that I get generally get positive comments about it. Not sure if that’s because there are so many limp-fish handshakers out there or because they are surprised when a woman shakes firmly and looks them in the eye.
I hate it more from men, than women. When it’s from men, I always assume they are giving it to me because they feel as though I’m too weak or gentile for their “real” grip. Au contraire, mon frere. I prefer a strong handshake as much as any guy/gal.
It’s true! A guy I work with actually admitted to me at one point that he does the weak shake with women on purpose! Because, he said, he assumed that’s what women prefer! Obviously, I immediately alerted him to the error of his ways and, I’m happy to report, he has since reformed.
But, that’s only one less bad handshake in a sea of millions. I agree that it’s terrible from women and men alike. Although, based on my experience with my colleague, I think I find it less annoying if it’s coming from a naive guy than from a woman who should know better.
Please, PLEASE: “Genteel,” not “Gentile.” Normally I’m not a grammar nerd, but this one always sticks out in a particularly awkward way.
I’m pretty sure they don’t think you’re too non-Jewish for their real grip!
Pretty sure she meant gentle . . .
There was a thread on this not too long ago. In any event, I have to say I have exactly the opposition reaction — A firm handshake (and I dont mean death grip, I just mean firm) to me is annoying and conveys that you are (a) trying to hard, (b) to act like a man, and/or (c) to prove something to me or think you are better than me.
Just for a firm handshake? If so, I think you are in the vast minority on this issue. I understand not wanting a death grip, but having a firm handshake conveys 1) that you understand how to shake hands and 2) that you are confident.
Shaking hands properly means I think I’m better than you? Really? That’s like saying “women dressed in suits are just trying to prove something.”
Well, first of all the fact that you think a firm hand shake is the “proper” way to do it rather than just one acceptable way to do it is exactly my point.
But in any event, how is that my comment about thinking they you are better than me gets this scathing reaction from you, yet the commenter above who said the same thing about someone with a limp hand shake was apparently right on the money.
And I also dont really think Im in the vast minority. Lots of people use a firm hand shake. Lots use a less firm, limp, or whatever else you want to call it. In my experieince, its probably about half and half. Its just that the firm hand shake people tend to complain about the others more often.
A firm handshake IS the proper way to shake hands. No one is going to teach a person in business school how to give a limp handshake. Just because many people do it incorrectly doesn’t mean that there are multiple “proper” ways of doing it.
I mean, there are lots of people out there dressed improperly for work. If there weren’t, there wouldn’t be blogs like this one. But I’m willing to bet if someone came on here and said “I hold it against women when they don’t show lots of cleavage at the office. I think that means they’re trying too hard,” most people here would react the way I did to your comment.
This comment is meant for ADS — Get over yourself. you are not correct. People can shake hands anyway they choose. there is no right or wrong way to shake a hand. seriously.
Everything I’ve ever read or been taught (by Career Services at a number of different schools) is that a firm handshake is, in fact, the “correct” way of shaking hands. I guess now I know why some people still don’t do it?
I find this whole exchange absolutely bizarre. Sorry, Anon, but I doubt you’re going to find anyone who agrees with you. Google “proper handshake” and see if you come up with any links that say anything other than “a proper handshake is a firm handshake.”
And as for “getting over myself,” you’re the one who says you hold it against people (only women, though, apparently) who shake hands firmly. If you’re so convinced there are a thousand “proper” ways to shake hands, why hold the firm handshake against women?
I can honestly say that it never occurs to me that someone ” thinks they are better than me”, with handshakes or otherwise. Why not just say this person is seems arrogant?
When I hear someone say that I instantly think: this person lacks confidence because they are expecting to be looked down on by others.
I may well be the only one who thinks this, but my two cents’ worth….
The worst part about so many limp hand shakes out there is that my firm hand shake (which is how my dad taught me) gets many raised eyebrows or sarcastic comments, usually from men. It’s really irritating, as though I’m playing dress-up. Shouldn’t adults all expect firm hand shakes from each other?
Co-sign. A firm handshake from a woman shouldn’t be such a surprise. I’ve had multiple people comment (in front of my SO and myself) on the fact that my handshake is firmer than his (and he has a firm handshake himself!). Sorry, next time I’ll curtsy if that will make you more comfortable…
Totally! We just had an interview clinic for a non-profit group- we were doing mock interviews of disadvantaged young people the non-profit was training to enter the job market.
Every single young woman I mock-interviewed gave me the dead fish hand. I think they think it’s ladylike to offer a weak hand.
I said, “Honey, I’m not going to kiss your hand. Shake my hand. You don’t have to give me a death grip, but squeeze my hand back when I grab yours.”
We also talked about it in the round-up session, so at least there are 20 or so young women who have been taught. :)
Ditto to all! I get annoyed with weak handshakes, especially from prosecutors. It is unprofessional to not know how to shake a hand.
Ok, there's a limit tho
I am a firm handshaker… always has been always will be. But, I have to say I can’t STAND it when people (men mostly but this AM it was a woman) squeeze the crap out of my hand and shake it like I’ve bet them $1M they can’t rip my arm off. Just give me a reasonably firm handsake so I know you are assertive and alive, and I will do the same. There’s no need to crush my hands and force me to hide what would otherwise be a wince.
I agree with this completely. I think I hate the death grip handshake way more than the dead fish one.
And this is the reason I no longer wear rings on my right hand– I kept getting my hand squashed and the ring setting would actually cut into my surrounding fingers– yeeowch! Firm but not too firm, please!
My husband always complains about people (men mostly) that give the so-called “death grip” when shaking hands. I commented one time that they may not be aware that they are even doing it. I then shook hands with him and told him that his handshake could be interpreted by some as being a “death grip.”
I think people over compensate and shake too hard in an attempt to avoid giving the limp fish handshake. Either way, practice with someone you know well so that you aren’t (unintentionally) going to one extreme or the other.
I’ve found that when someone gives you the “death grip”, if you squeeze back it helps to lessen the pain they inflict on you… and hopefully it teaches them a lesson too! :)
As I was being introduced around on my first day in my current office, I got the dead fish handshake from almost everyone, men and women alike. It was so disconcerting! I’ve been there for several months now, and I’m still cringing at the thought of it. ugh.
I am small and have a small hand. My husband is a foot taller than me and has proportionately larger hands. If we shake hands, I can’t actually get my fingers *around* his hand, at most my fingertips and thumb tip can grip, the rest of my hand is just parallel to his palm. I can’t give a good handshake to men with large hands because I literally can’t reach around the hand. It’s annoying. Hopefully, I do better with women, but (in my field, anyway) it seems like women rarely shake hands.
I would have not even started text messaging. I would have ignored the one from him and followed up with a (professional) email like Kat wrote about above. I agree that text messaging is something to do with friends and MAYBE close colleagues. But not with potential contacts.
Agreed, I would have ignored the text messages from the beginning.
Agree. The only time I have texted with bosses/coworkers have been things like if they send me a “running late be there in 10” or something like that.
Confessional threadjack, file this one under “should have known better.” When I first started going on informational interviews, I would tell my parents about them, and my dad would say, “I hope you’re not spending your money on these people who aren’t giving you jobs! They pay! Always!” So all this time, I haven’t even been making the gesture to grab the check because I thought they pay. Come to find out, from reading the posts from this past week from the wise Corporette hivemind, that I’ve been horribly, horribly rude. Luckily I haven’t had that many so far, so I have a chance to redeem myself. Now that I know better I’ll do good going forward. But I feel like I’ve sabotaged myself before I’ve even started. Sigh, frustration…
Now to channel my feelings of despair into the MBE…:-(
SF Bay Associate
A great example about how well-meaning parents may not offer the best advice, especially if they don’t have any professional background or experience in the area where you now are or aspire to be. There are no corporettes in my family, but they sure love to offer heartfelt, well-meaning, and totally wrong advice.
You aren't rude
I disagree with SF Bay. I think you should pay for your lunch on these informational interviews, but not for their lunch. You and they both know you don’t have that much money. And if they really insist on paying for you, let them.
I disagree. Unless you’re suggesting Morton’s and they aren’t grabbing the check.
I would feel weirdly uncomfortable (and have) if a student or other young not-fully-employed person (like a clerk) tried to pick up the check. I’m an attorney making way more than they are – I’m also (likely) older. $50 for lunch or $10 for coffee just isn’t the same to me as it is to them – plus, they’re letting me pontificate, they should get something for it :-)
I think its always appropriate to reach for the cheque. If you are asking me to take time away from my office to meet with you and give you career advice, this is time I could have spent doing paid work and I’m losing some income here. If you are junior to me (and especially a student) I won’t let you pay, but I think you should at least look like you realize that I am the one doing you a favour here and make the gesture.
I think you should always offer to split the check. Personally, because I don’t have a budget for recruiting and that sort of thing at my current job, I’d be horrified if an informational interviewee expected me to pay. I always split the check but if I had a budget for it, I’d pay for the interviewee.
However, I certainly don’t expect a job-seeker or student to pay for me. Usually they offer to pay for me, and I say no thanks.
Alanna of Trebond
Honestly, I completely agree with your parents. You can definitely offer to pay, but don’t belabor the point — and if they don’t pay, it’s not a place I’m interested in working. They can most likely charge it to the firm, whereas you are only charging it to your poor student pocket!
Kat : no, no, no!!! If an older gentleman responded in a “skeevy” fashion, I don’t think any further contact of any sort should be encouraged! What would this person provide as a mentor: tips on how to be disingenous and untrustworthy? Tips on how to post sleezy pictures to Twitter without getting caught? My strong feeling after 25 years of professional work is that your reputation is worth it’s weight in gold, and if this individual compromised his by “hitting” on a younger woman after just a few minutes of contact, he cannot provide anything of value to her from a professional sense. Far better to network with someone lower down the totem pole that someone high up who doesn’t have proper boundries. Kat’s advice is not too dissimilar from saying that Dominique Strauss Kahn would have been a good mentor even though his smudged reputation allegedly preceded him too!
“Tips on how to post sleezy pictures to Twitter without getting caught?” – literally laughed out loud at this one!
I absolutely think that women can network with older men, but I’d have reservations about this specific situation.
I would assume that if this man started flirting so soon while not even knowing the woman, he probably does this a lot. I would also assume that others in the field know about his proclivities. Then I would connect the two and be afraid that by networking with him, others would assume that something else was going on.
It’s so frustrating to me that we have to think about protecting our reputations in this way, but that would be a huge concern of mine.
Too extreme. Why is it so outrageous for a man to hit on a woman that sits next to him on a plane, strikes up a conversation during the flight, and then gives him her cell phone number when they land. This isn’t being “disingenuous and untrusthworthy”; it’s how people used to find their significant others. You know, before Match.com and Facebook disposed of face-to-face human interaction.
Her motive may have been to acquire a new contact, but did she tell him that? What message was she sending by returning his “skeevy” texts? No, he has no right to harass her. But I’m not sure how this makes him a prospective poster of sleezy pictures on Twitter.
Also, why is it that the woman should give up this amazing potential contact just because he misread her signals? You think she’s the first woman to try to network and hobnob with a man in powerful position and was instead just seen as the young woman/sex object? She needs to set him straight by showing how fabulous/professional/hardworker/whatever she is. I say to the writer, work smarter for this great opportunity.
If he just saw her as a sex object, exactly what kind of “great opportunity” do you expect him to offer her?
He’s the Chairman of the Board of a huge non-profit foundation. If she’s an attorney, this is a great business development opportunity. She shouldn’t just throw her hands up in the air and say, “Well, he found me attractive, so I guess I’ll never get business from that company. ” That’s giving in too easily. She shouldn’t close the door to prospective business just because of one guy.
Admittedly, I assumed the woman was an attorney.
I guess I sort of disagree and sort of agree… I actually landed my summer internship because of a skeezy old man who admitted to hiring me because he found me attractive (guess he had vision issues as well). Then my second job post-law school the same way – through the recommendation of a skeevy old guy. The upside? I had an amazing (on paper) job for that stage of my career. The downside? Birds of a feather – neither of these guys ever provided me with a career contact that wasn’t either (a) interested for the same non-professional reasons, or (b) wrote me off because of the guy’s tone in his introductions, despite my being so paranoid about giving him a reason to be a skeeze that I was uber-buttoned up in dress and behavior my entire time there.
It’s certainly possible to spin the situation to your advantage – first by following a lot of the great advice here and not doing anything in behavior or dress to encourage the skeeze, second by being polite and evasive enough that he’s never able to put you on the spot or interact with you without witnesses (which will slow them down considerably), and if you’re feeling a bit skeezy yourself, getting him to put his cards on the table early, allowing you to maximize the contact and then get out of his range.
No matter what, though, this isn’t a long-term contact, it’s not an equal contact and any benefits that come out of it will be 2-3 degrees removed (which is to say, the friend of a friend of an acqaintance). If you don’t have a lot of other options, this might be a lead to pursue. If you do, I’d just LinkedIn the guy and not respond to any communications after 3pm.
When I was a newer female associate, I was very careful about flirting that I perceived as coming from experienced male partners/counsel. In retrospect, perhaps too careful. Because now that I am a partner, albeit a young partner, who has contact with male associates and mentees, I find that what I think of as friendly, trying to get beyond status, conduct is sometimes interpreted as flirting and that I tend to steer my time and attention to those male associates who don’t interpret it that way (or who don’t claim to do so).
Now, I don’t typically text (though I have once or twice), and I don’t condone harassment, but I don’t know from what is given that any of that occurred, as opposed to someone (older male) having his ego fed by someone else (younger female) and that in the long run, he might not be a good contact for her.
I once thought I had scored a real networking coup, and drove 6 hrs one way to accomplish several things, including a meeting with the guy, while he was in the country. Turned out he had one thing only on his mind. I felt stupid, not just for falling for it, but for thinking I was good enough at what I do to get the kind of attention I wanted (objectively, I’d say I AM good enough–the feelings were off base.).
I think the best thing to do to try to salvage this is to ask him for contacts, perhaps by saying you’d like to network with women in his field to see how the manage the juggle or something equally gender-coded as that.
p.s. The thing I find most vexing in the whole A Weiner thing is that most of the women seem to have contacted him for political reasons, as supporters, and he turned things in a sexual direction with each of them. Not only icky, but also damning commentary on how he sees women.
“I’ve been in the situation myself, although in my case I think my defenses went up too soon — I vividly remember being asked “So what do you want?” when I took an older gentleman to lunch when I was around 23 (he practiced in a specialty I wanted to get into). Nothing but advice, I answered honestly, but I somehow still felt a bit dirty.”
I am so glad this article popped up today. I have felt this way so much this year – I had to ask for older male input and meetings, but did *not* want personal relationships. Oy. I just turned down a position because I was afraid of what the wives of my business contacts would think of me. I am in my mid-20s, 6′ tall, and athletic. And single. Networking is my specialty, but the job I was offered required regular 1:1 dinner meetings with male associates (no opportunity to bring a classmate/peer/colleague here). Argh. I was so conflicted: liked the job, hated the prospect of being black-listed by the local wives’ club, and hated the idea of being in a position where I would have to say “No” to unwelcome advances by older associates. There was a history of this in the position I was interviewing for. I will take any and all advice for being professional at a young age without turning down good job opportunities. I liked the father-daughter idea. My biggest fear is wives’ perceptions of me taking their husbands out for dinner. Ick.
I really hope you didn’t actually turn down a job you liked because you worried what other people’s wives would think of you. That’s terrible and self-defeating!
I feel ya
The wives’ perception is a killer and I just don’t think there is a way around it.
The executive group that I work with is made up of all males. While I really do like each one of them, it’s a serious boys club. I’ve made it in more than any other woman, partly because I’ve gotten to know each one on a very comfortable and healthy level. Due to the industry and their close relationships with one another, most of the bonding time and really decision-making is done during two or three-person golf games or two or three-person dinners (dinners are common given our particular industry). I was starting to get invited to these things but then, after I meet their wives, one by one, they’ve withdrawn and now I’m back to business hours only events. One of the guys just outright told me that his wife got extremely upset to find out that I was the one that he and another exec had been meeting for dinner. I understand them needing to keep the peace in their home but come on… I met their wives, I was warm, I was nice, I tried to make them comfortable with me and my intentions and made sure that they knew that I adore my husband. We seemed to get along just fine. I feel like if I didn’t dress as nice and didn’t pay as much attention to my appearance it would’ve gone differently. But, that’s just not fair or right. Especially since I’m a pretty conservative dresser as it is.
Gah. Sometime us women are our worst enemy.
This. I was noticing some male associates acting odd around me at firm family social events even though they are totally normal to me in the office. My husband said “duh, it is because their wives are around and they don’t want to take the heat when they get home.” My female assistant told me that after one such event her husband couldn’t stop commenting on how cool it was that she had “two hot bosses.” Ugh. Now if her husband is commenting, you know the males wives are too.
Oh and by “hot” I was wearing plaid knee length golf shorts, a polo, and Keens. So freaking sexy (*rolls eyes*). But, I’m young, blonde, big boobed, and blue eyed.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to network with this guy.
Given his behavior thus far, I would guess that his willingness to do her a a professional favor (introduce her to other contacts, provide guidance on career moves, etc) would lead to an expectation that he be “repaid” somehow — especially if she reaches out to him *after* he’s behaved unprofessionally via text.
His loss. He can’t make her “repay” anything, as long as she doesn’t work for him. I wouldn’t accept a job offer to work for the guy (or within his sphere of immediate power) for that very reason, though. Frankly I’d try to make a contact through the guy, then make a contact through that contact … move a few degrees away. No loss if he refuses. dgf
But how can she manage the relationship so it’s clear that she’s not interested in funny business?
She can’t. This is one situation where women constantly get told, wrongly, that they are the problem, that they are “accidentally sending the wrong signals” or otherwise just making it too difficult for the poor, horny, apparently utterly brainless men who cannot fathom the idea that a woman would want to speak to them for any reason except to jump at the chance of grabbing their pale, wrinkled balls. It is wrong. No one is that dumb, particularly not the chairman of a huge nonprofit foundation, who has had ample opportunities in his life to learn to read people and who has undoubtedly done so. He willfully misinterpreted her friendly, casual contact either because he resented it and was purposefully trying to make her uncomfortable, or because he knew damn well what she wanted and thought he could get her to trade sex for it. This is not our problem, ladies. It’s their problem, and no amount of wishing and hoping that we can somehow hit on the perfect way to act that will make men respect us is going to fix the situation. I am sorry this happened to your friend.
pale, wrinkled, balls…ha!
Anon for this one
Well-said – I will add a third interpretation as to willfully misinterpreting her friendly, casual contact and say that he did not care what her intentions were because he had decided she was attractive and he was going to be out of town, where it is far easier to have a casual encounter than at home (especially for married men).
Ugh, this. I hate being at a conference (or traveling for work) and not being able to make pleasant chit-chat with a seat mate, person I’m seated next to at lunch or during a session without it being perceived as flirting!
I know not all men behave this way, but the amount of times I’ve been hit on by older, married men with (some after telling me all about their wives and children) while traveling on business is astounding. Its the 21st century, I refuse to believe that being young(ish), female, and moderately attractive is somehow ‘asking’ to be flirted with (and sometimes stalked) while working.
I’d pass on this one also – no way the risk is worth the remotely possible reward. He KNOWS his possible value to her and he KNOWS he has the upper hand. And he’s counting on that. Move on – quickly. Better to be safe than sorry. (Older men often see younger women in particular as prey, and one doesn’t change that just by being “professional”. Leopards don’t lose their spots.)
I have a question about the “father/daughter relationship” point. To me, that implies that at least a certain part of the relationship is a little infantalizing.
As a summer associate, I had that type of relationship with one of the older male partners, and soon I noticed that he was calling me “kid” (not calling anyone else that), and it felt kind of off to me. It didn’t feel like the completely professional image that I was wanting to project.
This. I think father/daughter is the wrong relationship as well. You want people to think of you as part of the same continuum, albeit on different ends. I am very careful to develop topics of conversation that I can discuss with their my older, male co-workers so that I do get get put into the same “young” groups as their kids (many of which frankly are older than me.)
I HATE the father-daughter idea. It absolutely is infantilizing and transfers all of the power in the relationship to the other party.
Sorry for the Ellen-style caps
I read this to mean the kind of mentoring relationship a man can have with a daughter, not a paternalistic or demeaning relationship. I had a boss with daughters my age who pursued other life directions. He took me under his wing and provided me with tons of support and advice. I lack familial professional mentors and learned a lot from him – and I think he appreciated having an outlet for his fatherly support.
But it never involved stupid and insulting nicknames.
I agree with Erin. I worked closely with a partner who ended up knowing me better on a certain level (professional / intellectual) than my own father, and who certainly spent more time with me. I don’t think it’s unnatural for there to be a kind of “professional affection” that develops between colleagues—provided that there is MUTUAL respect and admiration between the parties.
The infantalizing / patronizing paternalism that is being described by other commenters is different—totally unprofessional, with the effect of establishing and defending a power dynamic that goes beyond boss-subordinate.
I agree with this, as well. I think a more accurate description is “mentor/mentee” – neither is younger or less professional, one is just less experienced. A coworker of mine who is my age (30s) always goes on and on about how our boss “is just like a dad, awwww” and I want to both smack her and back away at the same time.
Maybe people’s interpretations of the phrase “father/daughter relationship” will vary depending on the relationship you have with your father?
My dad is in my same line of work, and very senior and well respected in our field (which si male-dominated). As a kid, it was always assumed that I would become a professional as well, and he was thrilled when I ended up in his line of work. He’s definitely been a mentor to me over the years, and it’s that kind of relationship that I have with my older, male mentors: essentially the equivalent of a father/son relationship. So when I think of a “father/daughter” relationship, I think of exactly what a mentor/mentee relationship SHOULD be.
If your relationship with your father is more of a “daddy’s little girl” sort of thing (something I can’t ever remember having with my dad) then I’m guessing you’d read the phrase differently. (Please note: there is no judgement intended in this comment about what a father/daughter relationship SHOULD be.)
I think “kid” is an attempt to make it clear that his intentions are not sexual by using a gender-neutral term. Give him a break and appreciate the genuine mentoring.
I had a disturbing sexual harassment incident that bears some similarities to this subject. It happened over 10 years ago.
I was unemployed and looking for a new job. Yup, in IT, unemployment is a fact of life. My friend had a friend who owned a couple of software companies. I’d met him before. He was about the same age or a couple of years older. And she’d dated him casually for a brief period.
I went in and interviewed with him, but then didn’t hear from him for several months. At that time, he called and asked if I wanted to get a drink. I said sure. At the bar, he put his hand on my a$$ and kept it there, which totally freaked me out. He then mentioned that the job was still open.
I cut the evening very short. A couple of weeks later, he called again and I told him that no one had ever treated me with such disrespect and asked him never to call again.
This is all to say that I think the guy mentioned above would not be a good contact. I think J would constantly worry that his behavior would veer into the unacceptable. I personally don’t regret telling my contact off and am honestly very proud of myself. I’m usually far more timid.
Good for you. You handled this perfectly, especially his phone call back.
Anon for this one
On the micro-level, I do not think your friend manage the relationship so it’s clear that she’s not interested in funny business – IME, if an older guy starts sending you text messages late at night, the networking potential is over. If she contacts him now, he may be embarrassed at her rejection, which is not a good foot on which to begin a networking relationship. Also he may expect repayment for any networking help he provides and/or being recommended by him may carry an unwelcome veneer, seeing as it is likely he has a reputation for such behavior. Worst case scenario: retaliation/manipulation. I realize I am being harsh, but in my experience, when older men make overtures to younger women via text, particularly when out of town, they are after only one proverbial thing. And generally, they are not the nicest of people if they are willing to do that (yes, I realize, there’s always the exception, but call me a cynic – guys who have no problem making such overtures are not generally the nice guy who helps you network out of the goodness of his heart either).
On a macro-level – ie can a younger woman network with an older man? I find it difficult and uncomfortable but not impossible. Things that have worked for me: networking where there was a referral made (once through a former employer, once through a law school professor) or where there was a pre-existing professional relationship, firm handshake (that’s key), and being just generally very asexual/neutral. That goes without saying, but I am really mindful in such situations to be incredibly business-like, almost to the point where I worry I am robot-like. That’s one I have not yet figured out.
Your friend “J” should request the contact on LinkedIn (or other business networking site of choice) and leave it at that. If he accepts the invite, it will open up her to his network and perhaps there’s someone there that she know a la six degrees of Kevin Bacon – I mean separation. Let some time pass and then in a few months try reaching out to the CEO again and asking if he has any women he would recommend she connect with – great advice I cannot take credit for, as someone earlier in the thread mentioned it.
A lucky mentee
I believe that the type of older man you want as your mentor is the type of man that will never put you in an awkward position like this, because he truly is mentoring you because he sees professional potential in you and not because he’s hoping at all for a young fling. If there is a hint of impropriety, especially early on, I really don’t know if you can (or want to) recover from that.
A twist on the father-daughter mode that I’ve been fortunate to develop is a sort of uncle-niece relationship. He’s not old enough to be my dad, so I guess that’s why I view him more as an uncle. Nowadays, we email periodically and try to get together when we’re in the same city. We go out for meals (including drinks), and there has never ever been even one inappropriate moment or hint of impropriety. I’ve known my mentor for almost 10 years now – from when I was his young aimless assistant to becoming a law student (with his encouragement) to being a big firm lawyer and now working as an attorney for an international organization. In fact, he helped me get my (next) job.
I truly value the relationship we have developed and over the past near-decade, and he has always been a person I could turn to for advice when I need something more objective than the parental “you’re great, you can do anything, anyone would be crazy not to hire you” cheerleading. His wife has weighed in with valuable insight on occasion too, though I don’t have a close relationship with her. I think the fact that I know his wife and she passes along advice to me is another sign that this is a mentorship that’s on the up-and-up.
To circle back to the main point, though, it’s all about the individual. You can’t, as a rule, rule older men out, or make it work with everyone. You can make sure that YOU don’t cause it to be inappropriate, but that’s all you can control. The rest is up to them, and if they can’t do that, well… My advice is to move on.
the type of older man you want as your mentor is the type of man that will never put you in an awkward position like this.
I also work in a 90% male field, and was lucky enough to have some great mentors, both male and female. I would say I looked to my female mentors (who were all in industry, not working for my firm) as guideposts and as honest soundboards/feedback, e.g. greatly helping with my communication skills and helping me “see the whole room” when doing meetings.
My managing partner and my immediate one-level-above-peer mentor were both great guys. IMO, keeping a mentor-mentee relationship almost overly professional, then sharing more of yourself as the mentor opens up can lead to a great friendship as well. My parents are a bit on the older side, and are actually a few years older than my managing partner’s parents. When his Mom went through a serious health crisis a few years ago, it was very rewarding (and deepened our professional relationship) for me to be able to help him through his family issues.
I would say trust your instincts. If it feels wrong, it probably is. No professional relationship is worth compromising your reputation or putting yourself in an uncomfortable position.
I am not sure why this post is limited to “older men.” In my experience, this type of concern, although perhaps more prevalent in “older” men because they are tend to have achieved higher positions, can come in all age groups.
I was in a similar situation years ago. I was working in a job I loved for a man who was about to take off in his career. Everything was great until my boyfriend and I broke up. From that moment on, my boss turned our work environment upside down. Suddenly all our meetings were at night, and he wanted me to drink wine with him, asked me to romantic dinners, etc. I had never been in this situation before and I started to nervously withdraw from the job. I finished my work with less frequency and eventually my boss’s partner fired me.
In my industry, I was too worried about repercussions to take legal action. And sadly I was too afraid to tell the partner the truth. My boss has gone on to be at the top of his field, and I’m struggling to find work. Not a day goes by that I don’t regret just making a silly joke to my boss about trying to seduce me, and then saying let’s get back to work.
Since my former boss had the decency to wait until I was single to try something, perhaps he would have responded to some direct confrontation about his advances, and then we could have moved on. For the letter writer, this man sounds like he could be a fantastic contact. Perhaps treating it directly will help him move on and you can get the benefits of his position.
Something similar happened to me in my early 20s. I worked for a blue-suit consultancy, and our office GM seemed great. Innappropriate at times (like telling me I should tell him a dirty joke every day to “loosen up,” which I ignored), but it was a great opportunity out of college.
Everything went otherwise really well, and I was learning a lot. Until I broke up with my boyfriend at the time and the boss-man caught wind. He stepped it up, albiet subtly, but when I figured out that newly single me wasn’t interested, he started to set me up by having me bill clients for projects he wouldn’t tell the account managers about. So there was this weird case being built that I over-billed clients.
Luckily, I got recruited away before any of that got out of control. He was furious (which makes no sense b/c it sure seemed like he wanted a reason to fire me). In my last two weeks, he “accidentally” slammed into me in the hallway when we crossed paths. I finally figured out that he thought I was going to work for a competitor, but I was actually changing industries and the names were just similar. Then he backed off.
Surprisingly, I’ve met with him since then for professional/legal advice and he gave me strong recommendations. I’d never go work for him again, but I did actually consider it at one point when he made an offer. (The position didn’t pay enough though.) I guess I figure I just know how to deal with the guy now. Or maybe it’s just that at 37, I’m not his type any more? Haha.
Corporettes, I’ve been contemplating a thread jack on a similar topic, but this seems like the time to bring it up. I’m a young corporette (not a lawyer, but a young professional) and I have become close with an older male colleague. I’ve always dated older guys, usually a few years older, but the age gap between us is a little more than 10 years. We also happen to work at the same company. I knew him before coming to work here, and he is in no way my boss, but does significantly outrank me. We are not officially dating, but we go out together fairly frequently, and it seems to be moving that way.
I’m looking for (sage) advice. Is it possible to be in a relationship (discretly) with this person without it hurting my career? He’s a good guy, good intentions, not married. My biggest worry is the rumor mill (though I think eventually that could catch up to us regardless of whether we are in a relationship or not), and other peoples perceptions of why I’m here. I am ambitious and have serious career aspirations in this field, and I’m good at my job and that is currently recognized by my boss and colleagues. Is there any way I can make both work without it becoming an issue, or is that delusional?
I think you need to ask yourself whether there’s potential for a real, meaningful relationship there. I wouldn’t risk it at all unless I felt a real connection with the guy. It’s definitely risky but it may be worthwhile if you feel like there’s a real future.
I agree with Batgirl. Additionally, other than reporting it to HR (if necessary), I would keep the relationship private. It’s not that you are trying to hide it, per se, but it’s just that no one needs or cares to know (until the wedding!).
Ooooh. Yes, people will gossip. I know I would.
IMHO, YMMV, consider if this is “real” or if it’s one of the usual reasons women are attracted to much older men (the male has “protected” or “advised” her, garden-variety daddy issues e.g. he represents what her father never provided for her, or seeking love and acceptance from an authority figure) before feeding the gossips.
I work with a woman who recently switched firms for this reason. They did not make their relationship public until she did this. I think that was for the best, as the rumor mill would have been relentless.
The relationship seems to be working out. She didn’t make the switch until it became clear that they were not just dating, but headed for marriage.
I was in a similar situation. I had become friendly with an older male colleague at my firm (a partner). I am a junior associate that initially viewed him as a mentor. Our mentoring meetings turned into post-work drinks, then dinner and eventually we began dating, albeit very secretly.
After period of time, the relationship ended in a terrible way. No one found out about the relationship, which was a good thing, but this meant that senior partners would staff us on matters together because they were still under the impression that we have a good mentor-mentee relationship. However, it was clear to each of us that that neither of us wanted to work together even though it was unavoidable.
It has also become clear that I would be the one who would get the boot if anyone found out about our relationship or if our history began causing bigger problems (and judging by certain events, it likely will). I now dread going to work at a place I used to love. I’ve since found another job and am leaving behind the network I’ve built here.
So, in the end the relationship was definitely not worth the impact on my career. You should be sure to think long and hard about the realities of the situation and the likelihood that you will be together. There are far more horror stories than success stories in this type of situation.
Two coworkers of mine (junior woman, senior man) got together about 3 years ago. The senior man left his job. He was her supervisor, and there was no possible way it could be appropriate for them to date. They obviously liked each other a lot, and as an established, senior professional, it was much easier for him to get a job. Since they’re still dating and now living together, evidently he was right to choose the relationship over the job.
If this guy is your colleague, not your boss, and will never supervise you in any way, it is possible to make it work, assuming of course your company doesn’t have a blanket ban on employees dating (or senior employees dating junior ones). However, you need to be aware that as a junior employee, you’re far more expendable to the company than he is. If things get awkward, if your work product is lessened, if anything happens, you’re far more likely to be laid off than he is. He has years of experience and a good track record to protect him, and you don’t. If you two start dating, you need to take this into consideration. Otherwise, if you’re serious about the relationship, it would be better if one of you found a new job.
These contacts typically aren’t salvageable. As a commenter said above, the sort of person who would do this off the bat isn’t who you’d want as a network contact or mentor anyway.
More constructively, for every person who’ll try this, there’s dozens who don’t. So the OP and everyone else shouldn’t stop being open to networking and to new contacts, regardless of age, gender, or seniority.
I had a creepy fellow alumni 30 years my senior try this on me after I graduated and was desperate for a legal job. I sent my resume, he responded by inviting me to the symphony. I politely declined and cut off contact. On the flip side, two of my most trusted mentors now are men, and senior partners at other firms (we met through professional associations).
I think that the advice here should be different depending on whether one is looking for a mentor within one’s own firm/business, or if one is just networking. I agree that if a boss or co-worker of any kind starts making undesired romantic or sexual overtures, these have to be shut down firmly but politely (and documented, so that you start developing a record of the unfolding situation, if you ever need it). But with someone who you just randomly meet on an airplane, I think it may be worth seeing if you can deflect some initial dubious interaction, and send the relationship in a more useful direction. It may be that the guy is utterly sleazy and can’t be redirected, but if this he is really a big cheese and a potentially valuable contact, it’s worth a second shot. There’s at least a small chance you could wind up with a good contact, and the downside in this case is small. If he responds to a totally professional overture with additional come-ons, then he can be cut loose.
The 6/16/2011 Corporette referred to a discussion a year ago on almost the same thread. see https://corporette.com/2010/06/23/sexism-and-the-client/?awt_l=85dPN&awt_m=K3VJ4iNGIaOALm.
I’m glad to see that we’ve come a long way, baby — in that the responses today are far more self-assured and conscious of the implications of the unwanted advancer and one’s own actions. I was shocked by how reticent and tolerant the women in last year’s discussion were.
I had to put up with hands-on hitting on as a new associate over 30 years ago. There was no HR, the hitter-on was one of the name senior partners, had a rep for doing this to every woman of any rank, and there was no way I could have complained or reported to anyone and gotten other than a possible firing. In other matters of disrespect, not involving sexual harassment, I was told that I should be generous, since I was often the lawyer vs. non-lawyer staff. Male lawyers didn’t have to be “generous” with disrespectful staff, and were, in fact pretty disrespectful TO staff.
It may be their problem, in that the men are behaving totally inappropriately, but it becomes our problem in stunting our advancement and turning our energy to anger and frustration instead of moving onward and upward.
Remain courageous, maintain your own boundaries, and Rock On, Corporattes.
I learned this lesson the hard way. As a young 1L, an older man on the metro struck up an solicited conversation with me, and I quickly learned that he worked in an area of law that I was dying to know more about.
After obtaining his card, I raced home to draft a terribly professional email inquiring about opportunities in his line of work, and then followed up with a call to schedule the “dinner” he mentioned. To which he curtly responded that he was interested in me “personally, not professionally” and hung up.
With the benefit of hindsight, cyncism, and age, I realize that I should have been on notice at this point: “an older man on the metro struck up an unsolicited conversation with me.” I was so blinded by the opportunity to network that I forgot all other social cues that should have set off my normally on-point “creeper” instinct.
Anyway, I’m thankful he was so direct about his intentions, b/c I still can’t imagine what would have happened had I actually attended the dinner. And, now I am better at remembering that people are people – even in presumably “business” settings.
Poor guy. What makes him a creeper? Because you weren’t interested? Basically, a guy tried to hit on you on the train, and you tried to take advantage of his professional connections due to obliviousness. He was probably really excited to have met a cute girl, and was crushed to find out she only wanted to use him professionally. Nothing creepy about that at all.
anon for this one
Here’s what not to do
Accept an out-of-the-blue offer to have lunch from an older colleague you’ve never spoken to before.
Not say anything when it turns out the restaurant is all the way across town.
Accept the wine he offers at lunch. Let him pressure you into several glasses.
Agree to move over to his side of the table so that he can hear you better.
Allow him to give you a hug in the elevator, which turns into a grope and a kiss.
Be mortified about running into him in the hallway for the next five years.
Ask me how I know.
Another complaint – it’s no wonder men are leery of mentoring young women.
While in law school I had a wonderful old attorney mentor for whom I was working as an intern. I became close with his family too. We would frequently have lunch together or grab a drink after work. It was a really small firm so there were few others to invite. It was completely professional.
Yet, we were in a small legal market and other older men felt the need to mention me to him all the time. He confessed at the end of my internship that several men in the legal community came up to him in the gym to “high five him” about his hot new young catch. Others told their wives who told his wife that he had been “lunching with another young woman.” She laughed and new it was just me but many other wives are not so trusting and understanding. He was appalled at the comments people made to him and assured them I was a young and professional law student he had taken under his wing. He told me he had heard a lot about how rough the legal field could be for young woman but didn’t realize it was like this until after hiring me.
He had a very thin skin but many others would be embarassed for colleagues to see them with a young female and wonder if they were cheating on their wife. It is so sad.
Gah, I meant he had a thick skin.
I really appreciated he waited until the end of my intership to tell me he had run into these problems because otherwise I would have been so embarassed to continue going out in public with him alone.
summer in illinois
I can relate so much to this…worked very well with an (older male) prof who was mentoring me this year, but had other (older male) faculty raising their eyebrows & female classmates giving me a hard time about it. The mentor prof deserves serious kudos for listening when I complained to him about the dynamic. He made serious efforts to ensure it was clear to all that I was not getting special treatment & gave me some good ideas on how to navigate with the specific people involved. (I guess it’s a pretty common issue at our school since there haven’t been a lot of super-academic females…gee, I wonder why…) Still, though, yuck.
M in CA
Great post. The advice re: eye contact will be very helpful to me, particularly as between the “business” eye contact and “friend” eye contact. I never had thought about that distinction.
Regarding not being “too interested” in his personal life, what do other Corporettes say about this? I’ve found that in some cases, it can actually help to ask about a man’s personal life (just as you would with a woman). For example, if I’m networking with a man and he mentions his kid(s), I ask how old they are, how many they have, what they like to do. People love to brag about their kids. I was recently networking with a man who said he was recently married, and I asked how they met, where did they get married, etc. That networking opportunity has now become a business relationship.
Not that I would ever interrogate a man about his personal life, but for networking purposes I have found that asking someone about their personal life can get them to open up and perhaps feel more comfortable with me than if we were just talking shop. I think it *can* be a good way to make a memorable connection with someone and show you care about them and that you are interested in them as a person, not just their job and how they got there.
On the cynical flipside, if the man is a “creeper” and you know he is married/in a relationship, asking a simple question about his wife/significant other sends them a message that you know their relationship status without being accusatory. This can often require much more finesse than I can usually muster, but I am sure it can be done.
YMMV of course. I would love to hear what other Corporettes have to say about this.
I second this. I often find that asking a man about his wife and children will dispel any notion that I am “interested” in him and sets up a way for our professional connection to grow.
Nah. If a guy’s looking for sex, that’s what he wants. He already knows his stautus & doesn’t care what you think as long as it doesn’t get intbe way of what you do. And then he may joke about you being as bad as he is.
I have found this works. I have had a couple of situations where a man that I work with professionally says something inappropriate and we are in contained space together (in a cab on our way to a conference, for example), I have said “Oh, how if you wife by the way?”
At least for me, that has immediately silenced the other talk. Although I suppose it does require that the other person have the capacity to feel some guilt.
You ladies are totally playing with fire here.
If you are a 23-year-old freshly minted lawyer just keep your head down and do your job and stop thinking about networking with some senior executive man with 30 or 40 more years of experience than you. From his point of view (I’m a 52 year old guy), you’re still pretty much a teenager. At best he will talk with you because you are an amusing distraction. At worst…well, you know.
Alanna of Trebond
You are ridiculous. This is how I got loads of interviews my 1L year, because I was a self-assured 22 year old who knew what field I was interested in and was very knowledgeable about it. It is from networking. I’m glad I’m such an “amusing distraction” because I’ve gotten a job and some very good offers (that I turned down) through networking and NOT ONCE has it led to an unfortunate situation.
So LSco, I am sad for you, because you are a 52 year old guy who has been around twice as long as I have, and you still haven’t managed to figure out the worth of young women as professionals.
Alanna of Trebond
I also just realized that you are probably a troll. If so, good job! You get a gold star for your trolling today.
I appreciate the fact that you are writing. From my perspective, networking was a critical part of the position I turned down. I would have been meeting with male professional (primarily in the medical field) 1:1 per company protocol.
Do you have recommendations for situations like this (or situations the other women here have mentioned)? Meeting with older men (or even peers for that matter) is not always avoidable because, well, we work together. I, and I am sure others, are open to learning better/wiser strategy for communicating “business only” when the relationships come with unwanted and/or unexpected innuendos/comments/wives’ perceptions. It sounds like many women here love their jobs and simply want to talk shop when meeting work associates.
I talk to older guys all the time. My company is male-heavy, I sit in b-class on planes a lot. I am normal looking and dressing (not sexy or frumpy). Have been lucky thus far I guess reading these posts- never had this problem yet. I don’t put my cell on my b-card. I would never text a new contact. I would immediately cut loose a skeevy contact- what do you think that will ever amount to? I have had some fascinating conversations about the business world with dudes in planes etc. about life in Shanghai/Geneva/etc., business issues of the day, their family/lifestyle, what I do, etc. and learned a lot- would not shy away from engaging with the world because I am female.
I might subconsiously raise my husband sometimes as a defense tactic… haha I probably also seem so busy/haggard that it doesn’t even occur to them to try. I go on business trips with male colleagues all the time and make it very clear at hotel checkins, etc. that we are separate. When assumptions it comes up I just laugh and move on. My teammates all are married except one. One time he misinterpreted a comment I made and cut me off quickly, though my intent wasn’t meant the way he thought! But was a good lesson to be careful.
My boss always wants to get me smashed!
I’ve been through similar situations many times in my 20 years in the workplace. I also work in a company that’s been dominated by men. I’ve been sexually harassed six ways to Sunday — verbally, physically, you name it. One of the best ones was a member of our board, who, after the first board meeting, called me from a hotel and asked me to come over. Yeah. Awesome.
This is my strategy: When a man (any age) has tried to indicate an unwanted personal interest in me after a business interaction, I act like they’re joking. Every single time. “Oh, you are so crazy!, Haha, that (text, email, etc.) gave me a real laugh!” Then immediately change the subject. Repeat as necessary. Do not waver. Most will get the message fairly quickly (so it doesn’t escalate,) but this allows them to save face. This is particularly helpful if you feel intimidated by the person’s age or rank. I have found that about 70% of them (the ones who were just trying to get a read on whether you were single/available, rather than the more skeevy/predatory) can then switch back into business mode and perhaps become a good contact.
Not saying we should have to do this, we shouldn’t let them get away with it, etc. Just saying if you find yourself in a pinch in the moment and don’t know what to do, this works. It worked on the board member who called me from a hotel. He finally got it, and now we see each other at work functions and have no problems.
Regarding the texts specifically, at whatever point the exchange has gotten borderline, I stopped replying. The next interaction, if needed, would be an e-mail. If he references said texts, I just say, “Oh I get so much junk mail, blah blah, I must have missed that one”. Lather, rinse, repeat.
cmj, I love this! I think this really is the right approach. Dignity is preserved all around and no one has to be the wiser. If we can successfully draw the boundaries in a way that preserves our reputation and maintains a businesslike relationship while not decimating another person, why would we not do this?
This is ballsy, but so useful.
And I love the fact that there’s a gentle implication that his texts were, in fact, junk mail. Perhaps unintended, but perfect.
My mother, who survived the rough-and-tumble work world of the 1970s, taught me this. I’ve seen her turn very unpleasant situations completely around and leave everyone smiling. I’ve perfected it now, I don’t even think about it anymore, it just comes naturally. My mom, as always, is a genius!
CMJ – I agree to a point. If I avoided every guy who flirted with me, well, that just would be excluding a lot. (It happens. I’m an extrovert who legit LOVES sports, I talk easily to everyone, I drink scotch gracefully, and I smile a lot and am an obviously happy person. Guys respond to this.) In my experience, you have to be ballsy, rational, and consistent. You don’t really have a choice. Tap the wedding ring and shake your head. Laugh it off, be kind, and move on. Cite a boyfriend/girlfriend in conversation, whatever works for you. “Sorry, dude, I’m taken.” Confidence and quick, blunt statements are the key. Don’t EVER let an obviously flirty statement pass unaddressed. If you’re consistent, confident, and still friendly, it will work. I don’t believe in letting them save face. If they’re that egotistic, they won’t be a good contact for me anyway.
Oh Sigh, WHY must we still allow men to “save face”
That being said, this is probably one of the most useful ways to be tactful and then keep focused on your business objectives.
I would also NEVER give out my personal cell phone number. Keep a SEPARATE cell for just for business (it’s not that expensive to add a line) or only give out work/office contact information.
As I said, this isn’t about right and wrong. He’s wrong. But we all have to operate in an unjust world, and I think her first priority should be to protect herself and defuse the situation quickly. Again, I think this can be particularly helpful to younger women in junior positions, who don’t have much experience dealing with jerks in the workplace, who find themselves in a bind and need to do something fast.
Because you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, which is exactly why this strategy works. Do you really believe that by showing moral outrage or hostility when a man of any age or situation tries to hit on you that he will then turn around and sin no more? No, he files it away and if he has future interactions with you (or knows someone who does), won’t hesitate to label you a b*itch.
Could I please add a painfully obvious but excruciatingly under-recognized pointer to your list of “don’ts”?
I don’t know what it is about women who get in awkward or stressful situations, but a lot of them giggle, even if they are normally professional and not flighty. Whatever the powerful ol’ gent says, it’s not worth a giggle. Totally the wrong message. Perfect the art of the feminine chuckle, but for the sake of all that is good and arm’s length: Don’t giggle.
not going to lie, I giggled when I read this =)
to LSco: So we ladies should stand back and not network with more experienced professional men in our fields, leaving the field open to the young guys who will have no trouble with getting mentors etc.?
He’s made it plenty clear what his take on the possible relationship is. If she goes ahead after that, she’ll only have herself to blame when she has to kick him in the balls..
Think of it this way – she was going to have a career without meeting Mr Big Shot. Things haven’t changed. Period.
Text messages are for kids and cheaters. Be neither in the business world.
The only text messages that I have ever sent were strictly when I needed to communicate urgently with someone and could not make a phone call.
I am a recent college graduate working in finance. I networked with a senior banker via LinkedIn and suggested we get coffee in person. We met, got along, and he gave me career advice and promised to refer me internally as well as make an introduction to his friend at a different bank.
I met his friend and I sent him an email thanking him for the introduction, and he texted me the following morning. Needless to say, this turned into a series of (seemingly) innocuous text messages, where he finally asked to meet me for drinks. I agreed, though was suspicious of his intentions since he is almost twice my age. When we met, I made it clear that I was not going to sleep with him – though he was initially frosty, I cracked some jokes and made him laugh. He was touchy and leaned in for a kiss, but I turned my cheek.
Needless to say, I have not heard back from him since – probably because he came expecting sex and I was not willing to put out. However, during the night, once I established that I would not have sex with him, we still got along (or so I thought) and ended on a pleasant note. My question: Is there potential for a professional friendship?
In my experience, some of the mentors I have stayed closest to (male and female) who are the most willing to go to bat for me are the ones who have become my friends and who know me on a personal level.
I am thinking about following up with a text message or email, expressing that I’d like to keep in touch and get coffee once in a while. He is a senior guy who is well-connected, and I want to keep on pleasant terms with him, rather than drop off his radar completely. However, I don’t want to give off the impression that I am hitting on him. Is this a smart or stupid decision? Is this situation even salvageable?
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