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Anon
A friend just failed the bar for the second time. I know that this is a really bad. Advice for how to not put my foot in my mouth? I am sometimes good at saying the wrong exact thing.
Neighbor
Try empathy, “aw man, that sucks! I know you put in a lot of hard work. Let me know what you need – a distraction, a break, a plan. Sending virtual support for now.”
JD
This is the best response. Let her talk and don’t give any advice, as it sounds like this isn’t a specific area of knowledge for you.
Neighbor
And maybe just agree with whatever they say for now.
If they stick their foot in their mouth – disagree later.
“That test was totally biased!”
You say, “yeah I know! I get that!”
Next week: “hey I’m glad we connected about your test results last week. Hope you’re feeling better about it! You mentioned you thought the test was biased which I’m not so sure about? If that’s something you want to talk about, let me know. If not, and you just want a drink, that’s cool too. Please know I’m thinking about you.”
Cat
Ehhh I wouldn’t do this. Friend is prob a combination of embarrassed and worried since the stats don’t tend to increase with time re: pass rate. Reminding them next week about whatever thing they said to try to save face will just triple the embarrassment.
I think Neighbor’s earlier suggestion at 8:30 is better.
Anon
Yes. Something about agreeing with whatever someone says in the moment and then circling back later with a gotcha seems bad.
Anon
+1
Senior Attorney
+1
Anon
Agree. This just seems like dysfunctional communication, both the in the moment reaction and the next week’s follow up suggestion.
Anon
+1
Anon
Yeah, OP has nothing to gain and much to lose by pushing back on anything friend says about the test itself. Stock responses (“I’m so sorry – I know you worked incredibly hard”; “Do you want to talk about it or do you want to be distracted? What will help the most?”) are the way to go.
Anon
+1 it seems really weird to police a random one-off comment you don’t agree with from someone who’s hurting. Just nod and smile.
Anonymous
No don’t disagree at all. What is the point of that? Do you love the bar exam more than your friend? The bar exam does not have feelings.
Anon
Yea, this! The bar exam does not need you to defend it. Who cares.
anon
This is a great way to frame this! I may borrow this for other things.
Anon
Why would you say this?
S
Why would you ever do this? The person is a friend. Don’t bring it up unless they do, and certainly don’t try to prove they lost at this fairly.
If they bring it up, just say you feel bad for them and listen. You rarely can go wrong with listening. For them, this likely feels like a death in some way. So just like a death, do not say things like maybe it’s part of a bigger plan or that sort of thing. They may start bouncing around other career ideas, again just listen. Simply helping them feel supported is the goal.
Anon
What? No.
anon
Uh, don’t say this. That would be even more embarrassing for your friend.
NYCer
Sorry to pile on, but yeah, don’t do this. Something along the line of Neighbor’s suggestion in the first response would be more appropriate.
Anon
I never pile on, but man, I am definitely piling on here. Don’t say this, and please re-think why you would say this!
Anon
OMG why would you do this? Do you actually have any friends?
Anon
This is terrible advice. OP, don’t do this.
Neighbor
Sorry I will never do this
Hangs head in shame
Changes name for this forum
Anon
Be a supportive friend.
As for going forward:
There are always JD-preferred jobs. Some people can have a great career in compliance or contract management, where the degree is helpful and the license isn’t necessary.
How much did she fail by? What was her LSAT score? (If it was below a certain point, her lifetime chances of bar passage are low; it’s a lack of test taking ability, smarts, some or all of the above.)
IMHO, bar study is designed to get a lot of people, who spend enormous amounts of time studying, to pass. There are more efficient ways to study.
My STRONG recommendation to anyone is to take a MBE intensive course. (I didn’t have access to employer-paid bar prep, and I taught for Kaplan, so I was able to get a little six day course for free. Game changer.) Put most of your energy there. The skills and content you learn translate over to the essay portion. The bulk of the essays will be on subjects tested in the MBE. I also found it very, very helpful to have someone streamline the process: here is how often mortgages are tested, expect 3 questions on this distinction, here is how often second-degree murder is tested. I also appreciated the hierarchies: if you’re defending an alleged criminal, “the law says the facts alleged don’t constitute first degree murder” is a better argument than “maybe this other fact changes things,” is better than “but he was insane.” That carries over to the essay portions!
From there, consider buying outlines for the other portions of the exam. Those bar courses have so much information that they can be overwhelming. Overwhelmed students might retain half of the information presented. (You’re better off retaining 90% of 75% of information than half of 100%. That is especially true when that last quarter of the bar prep information is on least-frequently tested material.)
V
Good advice for those pursuing. But for the poster, don’t share any of this. Telling someone about other career pursuits or study suggestions is going to come across as incredibly condescending—this is exactly foot in mouth zone. Instead, just agree with the person’s disappointment and be there to listen or distract as needed.
Anon
Maybe I wasn’t clear: in the moment, be a supportive friend. In the future, brainstorm with her on her path forward.
pink nails
that is good advice IF she asks to brainstorm, or opens a conversation to brainstorm. I am annoyed af when I’m not looking to brainstorm and a friend starts throwing ideas my way on my career path (or like any random unsolicited ideas). I want commiseration and broad support from my friends, no ideas unless I specifically ask. This is very me specific, but I genuinely do not run my career as a group project with family and friends advice who actually do not know enough of the context to give good advice. I know that different people roll different; like my little sister people for advice/their thoughts a lot. Totally don’t judge that, but it is very much not useful for me.
Anonymous
You were clear. But it’s still not the friend’s place unless you are specifically asked. OP is trying to avoid foot and mouth. Coming in like the expert is a sure track to say the wrong thing, especially when the advice is pretty basic like this. I guarantee you the friend has already thought of all of this after not passing the first time. Don’t make the friend feel worse by acting like you know more about how to accomplish her goals than she does (even if you do). It’s respecting agency. The instinct may come from a kind place of wanting to help “fix” things for her, but it’s not your place unless actually asked.
Anon
Any particular reason this thread is turning into a dog pile?
Anon
Because people are giving spectacularly bad advice?
Anon
+1000000000000000
Especially because the OP seems to be a non-lawyer. I’d never want a friend telling me this stuff after failing the bar, but especially not someone who works in a different field.
Anon
I just can’t take seriously anything that comes from someone who used that many zeros. Calm down.
Anon
What a helpful comment, Anon at 11:01. Do you have any other advice for me??????????????
Anon
You used 15 zeros in your first comment to me but only 14 question marks. Does that constitute improvement or did your finger get tired? Curious, that’s all.
pink nails
personally I like a lot of zeros. Anon 10:16 we can be friends.
Anon
It’s bad, but it’s not the end of the world. Keeping that in mind will help you respond appropriately. “That sucks. I know you worked really hard. When can I take you out for a drink?” is exactly the right tone I think.
Anon
“You are so much more than the results on this test. This is not a measure of what a wonderful friend/daughter/parent you are, how smart you are, how kind and good you are, or anything else.”
NaoNao
I swear the best advice comes from “How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk” even for grown ups. I’d say just name the feelings “wow, that’s tough/frustrating/you sound bummed out” and validate them “That sounds hard, I’m sorry” and just “hold space” for them to vent and be sad.
But also sometimes asking can help! “What can I do to make you feel better? Movie night? Girls’ night out? Let me know!”
pink nails
this is so good. I’m one who jumps into “fix it” mode very fast when confronted with a problem, and I really work to dial it back and try and do above. It’s hardest with my husband’s venting :) but it’s definitely way more kind and builds a deeper connection to just show up in that very simple way.
anon
is tongue scraping a real thing? i keep seeing it on instagram. i mean, i brush my tongue when i brush my teeth but is a scraper a help? and does it really help gut health?
Anon
My DDS gave me one and told me to use it after brushing and flossing.
Anonymous
Yes, yes, yes
Anon
I also brush my tongue twice daily and keep the gunky buildup from sticking around. My husband does not seem to understand the concept, however, and I have to prompt him to deal with it every few days because it makes his breath rank. Married life is so romantic.
Anon
I’m Indian and this is something most Indian folks have done as long as I can remember. Like many things, it’s an old ritual that has become trendy and part of wellness culture (not always a bad thing). All of my family members have tongue scrapers, including my grandmother who is in her 90s.
anon
Another Indian here. I grew up in the US, but remember seeing this done when I went back to visit relatives in India.
Anon
Yes, I am about as basic as they come and have pretty much always used a tongue scraper. I think it works better than only brushing.
Anon
Reposting re: yesterday’s Passover discussion:
Related: I just saw #JewBelong’s new Passover Haggadah. I haven’t reviewed it closely, but I very much like the new ten plagues. See here: https://www.jewbelong.com/holidays/passover/#section6
My house will be using these this year.
PS: My favorite #JewBelong billboard is “Does your church need armed guards? Because our synagogue does.”
Anon
Love this! Thank you!
Anon
thanks for sharing! also, related, but unrelated – for NYC ladies Sammys Roumanian is reopening
Anon
But churches do need armed guards. Dylan Roof.
Anon
Black churches do. The billboard is meant for white audiences.
Anon
+1
Anon
Does the billboard tell black folk not to read it??? Give me a break. The billboard is divisive for no reason.
Anon
That is right up there with saying White people get shot by police too. I can point to both Black and White Christian churches that have been sites of violent attacks. But Jewish religious sites are much more likely to be threatened and attacked.
JFC – I am not even Jewish but the level of casual anti-Semitism here is truly astonishing.
Broken
Last night I found out my partner has been consuming nicotine products for a few years and hiding it from me as well as throwing out his packed lunches to eat McDonald’s. Our finances weren’t adding up so I tried to organize a sit-down meeting to budget and figure out where the f*#k the money was going since I was paying a disproportionate share of things. He refused to show me credit card statements and was gas lighting me, giving me false numbers and saying I was ‘not trusting’ him. He eventually came clean and showed me the statements after I repeated for the umpteenth time that the math wasn’t adding up so obviously he was hiding something. As far as things to ‘hide’ this is pretty mild but I feel like an idiot for being lied to for years and blindly trusting him. My partner is trying to act like everything is normal this morning and I simply can’t. Beyond the betrayal of being lied to he wasted so much of MY time and money by throwing out all the lunches I made. I am a very good cook, but the allure of grease is more than the veggie-heavy reasonably healthy dishes I guess. (We do get trash take out at home every Friday so he’s not deprived of junk food.) Any advice? Thoughts?
Anon
I’m so sorry. For me personally, the relationship would be over permanently, but only you can make that choice for yourself.
Anon
And to be clear, I say that because of the lying and deception, but I actually think that he has every right to eat whatever he wants. It sounds like you guys might not be compatible on that which is another reason to break up.
Housecounsel
Lying is never OK, but I would react very badly to someone trying to police what I eat for lunch or scrutinizing my spending down to this degree. Your partner is an adult and can eat McDonald’s if he wants. The judgment oozing from your comments about the allure of grease feels more toxic to me than anything else.
Broken
The nicotine and McDonald’s were adding up to about $500 a month, and I was already subsidizing him by paying for the downpayment on his car and about 80% of our mortgage. He makes MORE than me.
Anon
This seems to be the real problem.
Anon
Yes, this exactly
anon
I think the math still doesn’t add up? In my household, the mortgage is 50% of our take home pay. No reasonable amount of McDonalds or nicotine would move the dial compared to that. Are you sure there aren’t other credit cards you don’t know about? It might be worth running a credit check to see if there are any other cards or loans you aren’t aware of.
Anon
The lying would be a huge issue for me, as would this financial set up. Maybe in your mind frame it as a lying issue and not meeting joint financial goals. I would not try to “solve” the problem for him and at this point would try to decide if these are deal breakers for me. FWIW, lying and gaslighting are dealbreakers for me.
Anon
You have big problems before nicotine and McDonald’s. How did you let yourself get into this situation? Why are you paying 80% of the mortgage?
Relate
And what kind of partnership or relationship is this? It doesn’t sound fair to anyone
Anons
If he makes more money than you, then why on earth are you paying the down payment on HIS car and 80% of the mortgae?
Anonymous
I agree with this. There’s something deeper here if your partner can’t say they want to eat fart food. I suspect it’s a huge communication issue.
anon
Fart food is the best typo ever.
pink nails
+1 it totally is. I thought it was intentional and I was curious about the new slang.
Anonymous
but is it a typo? veggies and healthy foods can make some people fart
ha
exactly. that makes it even funnier
Anon
I’d be pretty mad if I were you, but I’d also question why my partner felt like he couldn’t be honest with me about what he wanted to eat. You’re packing his lunches for him and calling the one meal a week of food that he likes “trash.” That doesn’t justify his behavior, but I don’t know that a relationship with that kind of dynamic can be saved- I wouldn’t want to be either person in this relationship.
Anon
Totally agree with this, you aren’t a match.
Anon
Yup
Anonymous
+1. Maybe he has bad communication skills, or maybe he feels judged by you.
Senior Attorney
Agree. Let me be clear: I am Team You in that I completely sympathize with all of what you’ve been doing, but I’ve been there (trying to save the partner from himself — ugh for both of you!) and it isn’t sustainable in the long run.
Anon
Why are you packing lunches for him?!
Broken
Well we did have an agreement for some joint savings goals so making food at home was supposed to help with that (the savings weren’t happening though). HE also wanted to eat healthier since his family has some health concerns which he didn’t want to develop himself and me cooking was supporting his goals.
Anon
This seems totally normal to me – this wasn’t just you pushing this on him. Lots of couples do lunches this way for the same reasons. Then he essentially lied about multiple things: that he wanted the lunches, that he was eating the lunches, and that he wasn’t spending additional money on lunches. That’s a lot. Just wanted to validate.
ArenKay
Ah. You partnered with a child. You should change that.
KP
Sounds like you want him to depend on you a bit. Just because he says he wants to eat healthier
and save money doesn’t mean he wants you to pack his lunch every day. He may be getting peer pressure to eat with his friends and not sit in a break room with the women and eat veggies. This does sound a bit like a mom and child relationship.
Anon
How are some nicotine products and a dew McDonald’s meals a week adding up to that much money? Do you not have your own splurges that he might see as a waste?
Anon
I see that you have not purchased fast food and nicotine products lately. Used regularly, one of them would put a dent in a strict budget, with both of them being used it does add up to why is my partner spending so much of our money to be unhealthy.
Anonymous
The problem is not the McDonalds. It’s the lying. They agreed to try and cut back on take out to address some joint savings goals and health goals.
DH and I recently had a similar discussion. We still get fast food for lunch but I’ve moved from 3 days a week to 1 day a week and packing lunches on other days. That’s easy $40 a week between the two of us which over the month is $160 and the year is $2080 which was our savings goal for a yearly couples weekend getaway.
If I was diligent working towards that goal and DH was tossing out the food without telling me, it’s the lying and the deception that’s the issue, not the McDonalds.
boo
Smoking is an expensive habit and fast food isn’t as cheap as it used to be. It’s 100% believable to me that $500 a month is being spent on this if someone is doing both regularly. And “splurge” by nature are things that are not regular, an occasional bad habit is one thing, but $500 a month is not a small thing and doesn’t seem that way for OP’s finances.
Anon
So I’m with you in that I’m a great cook and spend a lot of time meal planning and cooking, and my husband often stops by McDs on the way home and then doesn’t eat dinner which I find annoying. But as others said he is an adult and I can’t micromanage his life. I would also hate if someone lied to me. It sounds like you both need a serious talk.
Anons
Maybe it’s time to stop planning and cooking so much for a guy who doesn’t appreciate it?
Anonymous
Disagree with all the weirdos who think you’re the problem – the fact that he let you make lunches instead of saying he’d grab something there is a huge waste of time, energy, and money, especially if you’re paying a disproportionate portion of bills. Agree that he can eat what he wants but just doing what he wants without a convo is a problem.
The nicotine products would also be a huge concern to me.
Anon
I don’t think anyone is saying OP is the problem. Lying, hiding and gaslighting are clearly huge breaches of trust. But, from the limited information she shared, it sounds like they’re symptoms of deeper relationship issues.
Anonymous
Yes! This is what I was getting at.
Anons
Lots of people are scolding the LW about packing his lunches and blaming her for his lying, actually.
Anon
Exactly. He was happy to let you waste time and money indefinitely. As the person paying for groceries, handling the emotional labor of meal planning, and spending time preparing the meals it’s a slap in the face. But lying once you suspected something is the bigger red flag. You learned that he’s willing to lie to you until confronted with incontrovertible evidence. This guy isn’t trustworthy.
Senior Attorney
You learned that he’s willing to lie to you until confronted with incontrovertible evidence.
THIS RIGHT HERE.
Anonymous
100%
Anonymous
This is so hard. You have every right to feel betrayed. The lying is a non-starter for me.
I am not sure how long you are together, but I’d want to really understand his side of things. Is your attitude about food something that makes him feel he needs to hide it? Eg. If he asked you not to pack lunch because he was going to get take-out, what’s your reaction? Is it a budget issue?
Broken
He would ask me not to pack lunches on occasion because him and a buddy had lunch plans which was totally fine with me. The McDonald’s was daily, and if I had known sooner I would have insisted we sit down to reassess the budget because this is adding up to $500/month, when I already pay more bills even though I have a lower salary.
Anon
I believe couples should manage their money in a way that works for them. It sounds like “I already pay more bills even though I have a lower salary” is not working for you.
Anonymous
So I would take two big steps back and make the entire conversation about budget. Sidestep the food and the nicotine right now and just zero in on the budget. If you guys can’t align on budgets and spending, that will be a lifelong issue. Brainstorm with him.
Are you married? If not, think very seriously about the future with this guy. He’s showing you who he is.
FWIW, my husband and I dated during our poorest periods. For a while, he supported me while I had a low paying job and was in grad school. For a different while, I supported him while he was in grad school. We identified savings goals, bills, etc. and everything else went into a joint fund. We used our debit cards not a credit card so stuff was withdrawn “real time.” We are in our 40s now and have a really high income and still operate largely the same way, except our spending goes on credit cards that are paid off in full each month. If the CC bill is larger than normal, I go through it and figure out why. Sometimes it’s worth a conversation (too much eating out, did you really drop $500 on kids shoes?, whatever) and sometimes it’s just the way the money fell.
go for it
things coming to mind:
– why does he feel he cannot be honest with you
– he is not a child. nope.
– he is a grown person who can pack his own lunches IF he chooses to. period.
– he is is a grown person who can eat whatever he wants whenever he wants
– he is a grown person who can consume nicotine if he so chooses
– should you remain in this partnership a reassessment of financial contributions for the two of you
overall the tone towards this grown persons choices exhibits a level of contempt and control that does not
bode well for longstanding compatibility.
Anonymous
100% agree.
Vicky Austin
I don’t think $500+/month in nicotine and surreptitious junk food is “pretty mild,” nor is lying and covering it up and gaslighting you.
Like, yeah, he’s an adult and can eat McDonald’s if he wants to and maybe if that were the only problem you’d need to unclench about that. But it’s not the only problem here. The issue is that he lied, and then lied about lying, repeatedly.
I’d think very hard about whether you want to stay in this relationship. This is unbelievable levels of deceit.
Broken
The other comments are making me think I just need to suck it up and pay all our bills myself because my expectation of equal contribution and financial honesty is too much.
Vicky Austin
Equal contribution (or equitable contribution since it sounds like you make different levels of money) and financial honesty is NOT too much to expect.
Senior Attorney
Not too much. It should be the baseline.
Anon
I really hope this is not the conclusion you have come to after reading the comments.
As an aside, it’s okay to be single.
Anonymous
Literally no one is saying that. No one is excusing lying. He’s a sucky lying liar. Is that what you want to hear? Does that feel better?
People are reacting to your condescending tone about fast food. You literally referred to food as “trash” – that is not normal or healthy. It’s not a huge leap to think that between your condescending attitude and the fact that your husband has managed to hide this from you for years – which must have required a ton of thought and effort btw – that your attitude is part of the problem. If you can’t tolerate the mirror being held up to you to show you that maybe you’re contributing to this dynamic, if you insist that everything is 100% his fault and you’re perfect in every way, then your marriage really is over.
Anon
But fast food is trash. It should hardly be called food. The truth hurts sometimes.
Anonymous
Way to miss the whole point there Anon 11:36
towelie
Fast food is trash, sorry.
Anon
It’s not trash. It can be delicious, satisfying, filling, fun, packed with protein. I don’t eat it that often myself, but when I do? YUM. I love having the freedom to make my own decisions as an adult. Most people do.
Anonymous
11:33 jesus go to therapy
Anonymous
I don’t eat fast food unless I’m in a bind. It’s tasty, but nutritionally poor.
I’d have problems if my SO ate McDonald’s on the regular and consumed nicotine. I would judge that. It’s gross.
It’s the lying that’s a bigger red flag though. I grew up with a brother who lied like this. He’s still like this.
End this relationship.
anonshmanon
Your clarification at 10:14 had some very important context, and I think a lot of those who are criticizing that you judge what your husband eats, may not have seen that you had agreed on joint savings goals and he had explicitly stated certain healthy eating goals, and your packing lunched was in support of both of these. For me, this makes the difference between you controlling how another adult eats and spends his money (can be problematic) and your partner clearly not holding up his end of an agreement.
Anon
No, the opposite is what I’m saying! It seems like a bigger conversation about how you split expenses was merited a long time ago, to make it more 50-50, or even more on him since he makes more!
Anonymous
what? no that is definitely not what anyone is saying. sit down and immediately cut the expenses so each of you is paying a proportionate sum based on your salary. if he has debt or something that’s his problem at this point. If you make $50K and he makes $100K, he should be paying 2/3 of the bills.
Anon
Umm, no, stop paying his bills!
some concerns here
i dont get why this is the conclusion you are making. You make less than him and are paying more for joint expenses, and you think you should just pay all? Why?
in case you’ve never heard it before, you are worthy of love and respect in relationships, even despite whatever reasons in your head are telling you otherwise.
anonymous
Yes, yes, yes. Thank you for saying this. OP may be bending over backwards because she doesn’t want to be alone, and it’s hard to give up on a vision of what things could be.
Also, when someone in OP’s situation says something condescending about diet, I don’t think she’s being condescending about diet. I think she’s being really angry about betrayal and doesn’t want to admit how angry and hurt she is.
Anon
No one is saying that. I think we are saying dump the man and pay your own bills. Only.
Nudibranch
Yes. Quit trying to mother this child man.
Anon
I don’t know about nicotine but a normal sized McD’s lunch can easily be $10 so that alone could cost $300+ per month if he’s eating it daily.
Senior Attorney
Yeah we are in the throes of Mickey D’s sticker shock around here lately, too.
NaoNao
Oof. My husband was vaping for a bit and I found a cartridge and freaked out and dressed him down pretty hard. He’s slipped up a few times with other little indulgences–like “cannadip” or “CBD cigs” type stuff. I’ve explained that I don’t want to be his mom, he’s an adult, but if he feels he has to sneak around, he knows it’s not something I feel comfortable with. We had a long serious talk about it and he said something that resonated “I just want to do what I want sometimes” which I think a LOT of men feel that way.
I’ve noticed that in long term relationships there’s almost always tension with how involved, closed, and entwined the female half wants to be vs. the male half’s desire for independence and autonomy.
So this might be manifesting in him doing these little rebellious things–smoking or whatever, eating crap food rather than the healthy meals. Like for many women, making sacrifices somehow feels almost good in a weird way, like it’s socially engrained in us that every sacrifice is a brick in the friendship or marriage wall or a dollar in the bank account. Men; no such thing. They don’t see it that way I believe. So while you’re building the wall (in a good way) by making these healthy meals, and paying the mortgage, you see it as him blowing it up by buying the McDonald’s.
Sometimes it’s really good to get these unspoken thoughts out–like just tell him “I thought me making you lunch was a gesture of love and support and when I found out you were chucking it, it hurt. I’m not sure you were aware of that.”
One solution for me was to back off a bit and basically say “I’m going to give you a lot of trust and latitude, please don’t break it or make me regret that” and it’s worked so far. He also gives me the same, FYI.
Anon
“‘“I just want to do what I want sometimes” which I think a LOT of men feel that way.”
Actually most people feel this way.
You don’t get to control other people just because you’re in a relationship with them.
Anon
Yup. I, a woman, want to do what I want to do and would balk if someone tried to limit that
Anon
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting, or not wanting, your partner to do something. But, this is a big part of why I remain single. You give up so much freedom. I don’t even smoke, but if I wanted a stray cig once a year, I really don’t want a partner breathing down my neck saying no or discussing it for days after. Once you’re in a committed relationship, you give up autonomy. It’s not a bad thing! There’s a lot of upsides, but I could never go back to that.
Anon
But to be clear – OP is a victim of gaslighting and lying. Nothing excuses her husband’s behavior.
Anon
Oh girl no, that’s not part of being in a relationship at all. It’s one thing to want your partner to share household responsibilities but you don’t get to control behavior nor does someone else get to control yours.
Anon
I guess I was reacting to the idea that your partner will dress you down for behavior they don’t like. I don’t want to deal with that!
anon
You know what? WOMEN also would like to do what they wanna do sometimes. It makes me so angry that men feel entitled to their female partner’s time, energy, and resources and don’t give it a second thought.
Broken
I really would love to eat McDonald’s every day too (or rather my fast-food of choice is actually Harvey’s), but I don’t because I’m an adult and I have to pay the bills.
Anon
You shouldn’t have to adult for two. Quit supporting this lying idiot and have your Harvey’s from time to time.
Anon
No you don’t! Why are you paying his bills and paying more than your proportional share? Stop being a martyr on that point and either have a conversation where you fix the finances or break up. no one is advocating for you to pay MORE here.
Anon
I mean, I just want to do what I want sometimes too, but I don’t because I am an adult. This isn’t a male/female thing except to the extent that men get to have a continued adolescence because women do the adulting for themselves and the men in their lives. The financial solution here is that each partner gets x dollars of no-questions-asked money that still allows them to meet their shared financial goals. And of course tell your partner that they don’t need to pack you a lunch, that’s just courtesy.
Anon
Oh my – this, a thousand times this.
Anonymous
“I’ve noticed that in long term relationships there’s almost always tension with how involved, closed, and entwined the female half wants to be vs. the male half’s desire for independence and autonomy”
That’s because the male half often wants to outsource a lot of the adulting to the female half and then to be resentful when she thinks she has an equal partner in leading an adult life. “You can’t tell me what to do!” is some BS when what he’s doing affects her, or their marriage.
Anon
Oh Broken. First and foremost I want to give you a huge hug. And then I want to tell you to get yourself the heck out of this toxic relationship. And once the dust has settled, please really reflect on how to be in a healthy relationship. There are layers upon layers upon layers of toxicity here and there’s no way you can tackle them with a “partner” who isn’t willing to acknowledge them. This isn’t a partnership, this is a mother-child relationship.
anon
Yeah, I totally agree with this. He is a user, and now you can’t ignore it anymore.
Anonymous
Yeah, given the additional info about your financial setup I’m inclined to say DTMFA.
ArenKay
All of this. 100%
Anonymous
Stop making him lunch. Get a divorce. What’s to salvage here? You don’t respect him. He didn’t feel like he could trust you with the truth. He was right, you are super judgy about it. Just cut your losses and move on.
Boo
This comment is unhinged. Based on what the op said, they agreed to eat more home meals, which she spent her time and money preparing. He let her waste all that time and money every single day and threw that effort away every single day. He could’ve owned up and told her but continued lying over and over again. And picked up a nicotine habit which she subsidized. And now this is on her for being super judgey?
Some of y’all are so sensitive about weight and food that you rather throw this woman under the bus, then blame this man for his own actions.
Anonymous
agree!
Anonymous
Agree. This thread so far seems to be about people who try to blame OP for making them feel bad about enjoying fast food.
Anon
I love me some McDonald’s & I think OP should kick her lying POS partner to the curb.
Anon for this
Counterpoint: maybe he’s an addict or has an addictive personality. It’s unacceptable to lie about it, but often with addicts, even those whose addiction is food, it’s super embarrassing to be an adult who can’t control junk food intake or uses food/cigarettes as coping mechanisms.
ha
I also wondered if he had mental health issues.
Doesn’t excuse things, but I wondered.
Anon
Doesn’t mean she, or anyone, has to stay with him.
The bar is so low it’s not on the floor, it’s below the floor.
Ses
Are you me 15 years ago?
Straight talk: he’s lying to you because you’re trying to control him. You’re trying to control him because he makes bad choices and you know that if you just try hard enough you’ll get him to make good choices and then all the effort you’ve put in so far will be worth it.
That’s the sunk costs fallacy, and you’re trying to re-parent a grown man. If I could speak to my younger self I would beg her to walk away. What plans and dreams for yourself have you put on the shelf for “later” after this guy catches up with you? Love doesn’t consist mainly of sacrifice.
Anon
+1000
Senior Attorney
Oof, I’m ruefully laughing along with this. So true.
As somebody on here once said (maybe it was me?), people are not improvement projects.
Ses
If it wasn’t you who said it, I’m pretty sure someone here said it to me over a decade ago while I was unwinding from that horrible relationship. It’s good counsel.
Emma
This. All of this.
Anonymous
I guess I’m not as doom and gloom as others here. You could both take this as a wake up call that you two aren’t working as a team. Of course that requires him to own up to the lying and commit to being an adult who talks through things. And it requires you to do some introspection on whether you’re being so overly critical that he feels he has to lie. Try to listen to yourself with his ears. There’s also the issue of finances and spending, which seem to have created a lot of pent up resentment for you. A counselor can help you learn to communicate more effectively so you’re both able to hear the other.
Anonymous
it feels like you’ve been trying to work as a team by paying lots of the expenses, and trying to help him meet his expressly stated goals of eating more healthfully — and he’s been acting like a child.
anon
I agree that lying is bad. But thinking to my own childhood when I had lied to my parents or teachers because I was terrified of being punished, I think there’s an anticipatory fear of being judged or scolded so he hid it from you and lied when discovered. It’s understandable human nature that, while frustrating and not healthy in the long run, could benefit from compassion and counseling. I would talk to him about how it hurts that your food and time is thrown away, and that for the relationship to work he should communicate with you (like when he thought he could stick to healthy lunches but found out he couldn’t, it’s okay to tell you so without fear of backlash). I would explore therapy and counseling first before rushing to break up.
Anonymous
But he’s her partner, not her child or student! It is a fundamentally different relationship.
Anon
I’d have issues with his lying and attempts to gaslight but I’d also break up with a partner who tried to police what I eat and made moral judgements about it (allure of grease over veggie-heavy meals; one takeout a week is enough “junk”).
I had a coworker who would ask us to disguise Venmo payments to him if we got lunch out as an office because his wife monitored his food like this. She didn’t care that he was spending money, she cared that he wasn’t eating up to her standards. Seemed like a very, very toxic relationship.
For me, more than very occasional nicotine or non-weed drug use is a dealbreaker for me. I had a few beloved relatives die from smoking related illnesses (back when smoking was commonplace) so it’s a dealbreaker for me, and I did breakup with a dear friend (who was briefly also my boyfriend) over his cigarette habit. My close guy friends all occasionally smoke cigarettes (when drunk ) and soberly use other forms of nicotine (dip, pouches, or vaping). They also occasionally use recreational drugs. I don’t love it, which is why I’m not dating any of them. Maybe it’s a little hypocritical that I love friends who have these habits but refuse to date someone with these habits (I’m okay with very, very occasional use from a partner but that’s it) but I don’t care – I get to have whatever dealbreakers I want.
Anon
This, exactly. I’m a vegan who basically never eats fast food, but I still don’t want my husband judging what I do or don’t eat and I do the same. It would probably be a dealbreaker if he did want to eat huge amounts of meat for every single meal, just for practical reasons (we’d never be able to share a meal), but him eating some meat at home and stopping at In-N-Out once in a while works fine.
anon
This. DH’s work friend would have his coworkers buy him food for lunch and would throw out the meals his wife packed for him. He would pay them back via Venmo. The relationship met all the criteria of the Domestic Violence Power and Control wheel (look it up) except for the lack of physical abuse, which isn’t a necessary element. There are lots of comments on this thread about “manning up” that don’t consider what that might mean in the context of OP’s relationship.
Broken
To be clear I’m not controlling his money he’s stealing my money.
Anon
I don’t know how this is a marriage if your money is YOUR money only. I’ve been married for 25 years and our money is our money. He is not stealing your money. God, just let this man alone.
Broken
Would your view change if I told you he hit me? Because he has. He’s not a victim
Anon
Okay so figure out a plan to leave!! I know it’s hard. And scary. And all the things that are true in an abusive relationship, but you do have choices and you do have the right to exercise control over your own life. Call your local DV hotline and a lawyer and start putting together a plan to GET OUT.
Anon
I guess my question is, if he earns more than you and you pay the bills, where is his money going? Do you have a joint account?
I think ultimately you and he do not share financial values, he is not interested in actually sharing finances, and that’s why he is hiding his purchases. He is perfectly happy to keep accepting you paying for things, of course…
Anon
Ok, with that update at 3:55, I think you need to find a safe way to end this relationship. He is gaslighting you. He is not a true partner and you deserve more and better than that. I’m no expert but I know how to leave a relationship like this safely has been discussed on this board before and other places online. Seek legal help. And put some cash from your paycheck in a separate account that only you access, if you don’t have that already.
Anon
Would my view change? I still believe this is not a marriage. You should leave him asap. My point is that if you are saying he is stealing your money, you never had a partnership. And everything you add makes that clearer. This marriage is not salvagable.
Nudibranch
Why are you still with this man? You don’t need to ask us for advice. You know what to do. Woman up, and do it.
Anon
I’m sorry. I’m obsessed with burger king impossible whoppers and soda and buy them way too often. But I don’t lie to my husband about it, even though I know he’s kind of judging me. He likes edibles (legal in my state) and I… don’t. But he doesn’t lie to me about it. We don’t have to like the same things, but we have to be honest with each other.
My ex husband developed a drinking problem and was trying to hide it from me (by bringing home beer in his work backpack every evening, drinking it after I went to bed, and taking out the recycling). When we went to marriage counseling, he blamed it on me being controlling. We divorced, and guess what, he’s still an alcoholic even without me there to control him.
Anon
Those impossible whoppers are yum. I don’t blame you. Haha
Anon
If I could have them every day I would!
Anon
I didn’t know there was an impossible whopper! I think I might have to go get one today.
pink nails
I think I will join you. #fartfood
Anon
One thing I don’t understand is why you are paying way more than your fair share of the bills when he makes more. Who came up with that arrangement?
Vicky Austin
I don’t think it’s supposed to *be* the arrangement; that’s the whole point.
I agree with other comments that there’s probably other expenses you don’t know about, OP.
Anonymous
The real issue is : Why didn’t he feel comfortable telling you he did not want you to make his lunch. An adult man should be able to decide if he would like to purchase or bring lunch.is he that much of a wimp he is afraid to be honest or are you so overbearing that you would not allow him to spend money on buying lunch? Are you so judgmental that you would harass him about his choice of lunch? I would hide from you too.
Anon
Friend, you have become the mom in this relationship. He’s a child now, he’s hiding things from Mean Old Mommy. I don’t see how you come back from this.
It’s not the McDonald’s & not necessarily the nicotine, though that would really bother me. It’s the slippery slope you’ve been on for some time – WHY are you paying for his car and 80% of the mortgage when he makes more than you – you’ve allowed a lot of this to happen and none of it has been fair to you.
Stop coddling your unruly teenager of a husband. GTFO. Start living your own life, let him fail by himself. It will be the best thing you’ve ever done. I promise.
Anon
+100000000000000000
(That’s 17 zeroes for those who are keeping score)
Anonymous
*snortt*
Anon
My husband and I quit smoking at the same time. Subsequently, my son caught him smoking again and was so upset that he lied about it. I explained to my son that he was lying to HIMSELF and the hiding had nothing to do with us. Addiction is real whether nicotine, food, alcohol or drugs. The betrayal is his shame and has nothing to do you you at all. You can choose to leave him due to his failings of addiction to nicotine and food but please don’t think the lying has anything to do with you. Is he lying because you are harping on him? Did he ask you for these fancy meals?
Anonymous
Something like this happened to me with my ex husband. We were on a tight budget, and he was (I think) eating the packed lunches in addition to buying fast food and candy bars, chips, and soda. That’s where the babysitting money was going. He was also staying home sometimes because he was too tired to work. He had me convinced this was no big deal, and that any marriage problems were my fault. It turned out that it was a symptom of him devaluing and discarding me and most likely having an affair while I tried to fix the marriage and get him to go to counseling.
Anon
DTMFA. This is about lying and gaslighting, not McDonalds. Although I will say, I think secret nicotine consumption is a BFD.
Anonymous
+1
DTMFA! Don’t listen to the people who are food mad, just get away from this man.
Anonymous
This is financial infidelity, and articles/resources about that may be helpful to you Broken. Regardless of why he did what he did, it is a form of deceit that is really damaging. I’m sorry you are in this position.
Anons
You can’t stay in this relationship. His attempts to hide things from you are not “pretty mild”. This isn’t about nicotine or fast food, it’s about 1) lying 2) gaslighting you with ‘don’t you trust me’ and 3) pretending it’s NBD after the fact.
You don’t even know how “mild” these lies are. The money’s still not adding up and you know he’s willing to lie to you and shut you down, so what else could he be lying about?
Seriously: this isn’t about you being a big meanie as some fools are telling you, or whether the money is going to hamburgers. You can’t trust this man with YOUR MONEY. Run.
Senior Attorney
This is a great point. And also the whole whattaboutism is just poison to a relationship. My former husband was a master at that: I’d raise a legitimate complaint like “please don’t yell at me,” or “please do XYZ thing that you promised to do,” and he’d invariably turn it around to something like “you’re so controlling” or “you always think you’re so perfect,” and then I’d end up defending myself against those (impossible to defend against — funny how that works) charges, and my perfectly legitimate issue would get lost in the noise.
Anon
I am hearing that alcohol, vaping, and some drugs as well as sex in HS are the norm rather than the exception. I was a nerd in high school and never did any of it – I only started drinking in college. I have an 11 year old and what should I be talking about with her about all those things? Someone at her middle school got caught with marijuana and some 8th grader was giving guys blow jobs at school. I am so anxious in guiding her to make wise decisions and would appreciate guidance in how to do so (books, or any tips).
Anonymous
Start talking to her now
Anon
You should talk to her about this stuff for sure, but statistically Gen Z has less sex than previous generations, so while sex in high school is a thing for some people it’s overall less common than it was for us in Gen X/millenials.
Anon
Still, some kids are. The talking needs to start now and be ongoing.
Anonymous
I was a pretty big nerd in high school and so were most of my friends. I still was having (protected) sex with my boyfriend though. It was back in the 90s but many kids I knew smoked. We even had an area for it at school! Kids drank, had parties etc.
I would focus on safe sex, consent, and driving /being driven sober.
pink nails
This was me too. Now that I think about it, it’s really weird that “smokers corner” was a widely known location by the school.
Anon
A student can be both a nerd and having sex and doing drugs. I was: straight As and early admission to a Seven Sisters school (Hi, Seventh Sister!) and lots of sex and a little pot and even less smoking (pot and smoking ended partway through college).
My perspective is to take the long view and provide kids with as much education as possible so they can make informed choices with that long view in mind. IMO that means focusing on academic and co-curricular performance, full facts about reproductive health Planned Parenthood/Guttmacher Institute style (my interpretation of this is that so long as everyone is willing and no one gets pregnant or infected, it’s fun) and MD level information about drugs and smoking (my interpretation is that drugs and smoking is more problematic than sex).
I always think of myself as a classic liberal, but maybe we are a dying breed.
JD
I really dislike smoking and agree it should be illegal for kids. On the flip side, there are a bunch of 18 year olds at school who are eligible for military draft and voting. I think most kids aren’t mature adults at that age but that’s more our current societal expectations.
Cb
I’m in the UK and vaping from about 12 is an epidemic. I think it’s never too early to talk about this stuff.
Anon
Actually, all of these behaviors are less common in teens now than they were when I was in HS in the 1990s. Gen Z and Gen Alpha are much less likely to engage in real-world risky behavior and more likely to engage in risky behavior online.
For talking to your kid, I always think step 1 is making sure you’re internally clear on your own positions and values, and making sure you can clearly explain them. Then you move to determining the age appropriate communications to make to your child.
How this could look in practice: what is our view on teen drinking? Ours is that it is completely unacceptable, with the sole exception of a taste of wine or champagne at a holiday meal under our supervision.
Our rationale: first, it’s illegal, and we don’t allow our kids to engage in illegal behavior. Second drinking is very risky – it can make you sick and being drunk increases the odds of ending up in a dangerous situation because you’re less aware of your surroundings. So it’s something that is reserved for grownups.
How we communicate about this with our 13-year-old: our kids see us drink and we have, since they were old enough to ask, described alcohol as a grownup drink. We ask, casually and at non-stressful times, whether any kids in her grade are drinking. We use examples from our own teen years to talk about situations she might encounter and how to handle them (eg my parents and I had a word I could use when I called home to ask permission to stay over at someone’s house, and if I used it, they’d say I had to come home – that was a safety valve for me in overwhelming situations). We’ve also talked through face-saving ways to decline alcohol/alert an adult to a kid who needs help.
Anon
My oldest is 10 so we haven’t crossed this bridge yet, but I’m curious how you balance saying something like teen drinking is totally unacceptable, while also making them not terrified to come to you if they do end up experimenting with it (highly likely in my teen friend circles) and something bad happens/comes up that they could benefit from coming to you about? I like your safe word examples at the end, but they all seem to be under the premise that it’s others drinking and your child has stayed strong/ it’s not them drinking.
Anon
It’s less about what you say, on that one, and more about how you deal with disciplinary issues over the lifetime. My kid is not supposed to climb the wall behind the garage bc it’s super unsafe. He threw a ball over it accidentally, tried to climb it, fell, and busted his face open. Our first concern was for his safety. We talked later (after urgent care…) about the fact that he broke the “no climbing the wall” rule, but taking care of him and comforting him was the first priority. If you take that approach throughout childhood, you lay the foundation for your kids to trust that you care most about their safety and that you’re a safe person to come to when they break a rule and need help.
Anon
I don’t think this is enough, TBH. I think a talk needs to explicitly happen about them being safe to talk to you about these specific things if needed in some way while also not condoning. They are not going to equate the topics at hand with climbing over a wall. They are going to think they are a different scale, and therefore much more afraid to talk to you about them. Keep in mind a teenager’s mind does not always work rationally or logically.
Anon
If you hold abstinence views about drinking you have every right to express that but please give your kids more knowledge. Chances are they’ll try it at some point. Make sure they know to keep their eyes on their drink, only drink something they poured themselves, measure each pour instead of topping off, and eat a solid meal beforehand. The same thing goes for gardening. My friend whose parents only taught her to say no made seriously risky decisions. My other friend whose mom taught her things like “the more a guy pushes you not to use a gardening glove, the more you should use one” fared much better.
Anon
How about “the more a guy pushes you not to use a gardening glove, the faster you should DTMFA?” Seriously.
Anon
THIS!!
anon
Former prosecutor checking in: I’d be primarily concerned about social media. A lot of serious stuff happens via social media that parents are clueless about. I can’t tell you the number of shocked parents who were absolutely clueless about what their middle schoolers were doing on their phones, even though nearly all claimed to have some sort of oversight and controls. Talking about those risks is great but keeping close watch over the phone is just as, if not more, important.
Anon
What are some of the stuff that I should be talking about social media? And what kind of controls I can enforce?
Anon
Well, start with not allowing your 11 year old to have social media accounts. You can read up online on how to block that from her phone if you allow her to have a smartphone. If she doesn’t have a smartphone, don’t get her one.
Anon
No smartphones until high school at least.
Anon
What about IPads? We are doing no smartphones but she has an IPad. Should I take it away somehow? She uses it to text her friends, listen to music, etc.
Anon
Regarding social media, here’s a recent unforseen crazy example: A couple of 8th graders made several tik toks on the theme of another boy’s father having just died suddenly. (He had not). They used AI software to dub in high profile people offering their condolences, took photos off fb and other sites to make it seem like a memoriam video and basically encouraged the comments of sympathy for people who believed it. They referenced a future go fund me though stopped short of setting one up. It was up for a couple months.
Anon
If my kid participated in that, he would be grounded with no internet-connected devices until the end of time.
Anonymous
We do no phones in the bedroom at night. All devices go in a charging stations just instead the door to the master bedroom at night. And no devices in bedrooms. You can have your airpods in and watching something on your phone or ipad but not alone in your bedroom. We have a playroom downstairs, a formal front living room and a family/tv room and a reading nook upstairs so there are lots of non-bedroom spaces to get a bit of privacy.
Anon
I’m reading Haidt’s The Anxious Generation right now and he starts off with the premise that kids in Gen Z (and today) were overprotected in real life (on the playground, etc) and under protected on social media where the parents turn a blind eye or have no idea what they’re up to. Kids will have a parent step in if they start fighting with another kid on the playground, but if they start communicating with a pedo through Instagram, there are no limits.
Anon
Gen X here. There were a few dozen people in my ~300 graduating class cohort who we knew drank, partied hard, and a few of the girls got pregnant. The rest of us were rather boring and had other hobbies.
My ultra-conservative mother and her churchy friends seemed to think my entire generation was a bunch of horny, drug-addled degenerates. My parents were alternately terrified I was going to be sucked into that “lifestyle” (and made all sorts of restrictive rules to “protect my integrity”) or convinced I was in up to my eyebrows while also managing to hide all evidence from them while maintaining a 4.0 and not having any social life outside their presence to speak of.
My daughter’s HS peer group experience seems very similar to my own (minus that parental toxicity). We talked about choices and life impact from tweenage years, never really made a big deal out of it, and none of these things were an issue for her. She has become an adult who makes mature, healthy choices for herself.
Anonymous
+1 to this. I heard a joke recently that ‘your 40’s are weird – some of your friends are grandparents, some have new babies, and some are still partying like they’re 20.’ It’s quite true and I have friends who are in every bucket. We talk with my kids about how my friends who had babies at 18/19/20 had very different life experiences that were much harder in a lot of ways and that’s why we think it’s important to have lots of information on contraception/reproduction so you are making informed decisions.
anon
You aren’t kidding about the 40s being insanely weird. So many life stages rolled into one! Add in elder care on top of everything, and oy.
Anon
I have a similar daughter, high achieving,managed her own school, job and friends autonomously and well over the years & found her passion (dance). She neither acted out or abstained completely in high school but was never self destructive and is thriving in college. My 8th grade son vaped this past year, was part of a large social group that had a troubled peer who was suicidal and removed from an abusive home(which was heartbreaking), started getting poor grades and needed us to get him psychological support, testing and just offer a lot of ongoing guidance and support. Fortunately, over the past 6 months he is much better but it obviously varies with kids, even in the same family. What helped a lot was having a couple close friends who are parents in the group. We keep each other a bit more in the loop though I harbor no fantasies we know really what is going on. But we try to maintain a good, open relationship and recognize we cannot go on auto pilot with the second one. He needed more help, including professional help. As my doctor said when we brought my son in for first depression evaluation “The kids are not really allright.” some are….but many are not. And I say this as a parent in a highly rated, affluent district. Don’t be afraid to get help if they need it.
Anonymous
I’d start talking about all of this ASAP – we’ve had ongoing conversations about drugs, alcohol, sexual health/consent since about 6 or 7 in an age appropriate way that gets more complex as our kid gets older. We have also talked about Narcan, never ever buying or sharing medication online, etc. as our kiddo has adhd and takes meds so we’re super aware of that possibly being an issue later in life (being pressured to share his meds).
anon
I was a high schooler who didn’t do any of that stuff, but what you’re describing is not exactly new. Yes, absolutely have frank conversations with your kid about your family values and expectations. Obviously, what you discuss with an 11-year-old will be different than what you talk about with a 14-year-old. Ask her questions about what she’s heard at school and how she feels about all of that.
Anon
Most kids in Gen Z are too glued to their phones to have sex or do drugs. I’m not being facetious – it’s backed up in the data. But it’s not necessarily a good thing.
Anonymous
Not sure about your location but there were a spate of deaths recently in our area of kids OD’ing on drugs they bough via tiktok that were laced with fentanyl. It scared the heck out of me and most of my mom friends and we talked about it openly with our kids and many of us stocked up on Narcan (MA – available here to get OTC).
Anon
This is an important point to consider. Kids in the 90s and early 2000s could experiment with drugs without the danger of high-powered opiates. You’re more likely to get the wrong pill today, and there’s no second chance.
Housecounsel
Seriously. My teenager is at home texting when she isn’t playing school or travel sports. She’s my third and the youngest by far so I am not naive.
Roxie
I know at least 4 teen girls who have had awful Snapchat s**xual situations shared and the police have been involved. I don’t even have children. There’s an absolute epidemic of online social media SA. This is a requirement for parents to teach about regardless of whether you think gen z is having lots of relations people!
Vicky Austin
I’ll add that I think you definitely need your own escape valve for your anxious feelings. Keeping them out of your discussions with your daughter will be helpful.
Anon
I don’t think it’s any more common than it was. I went to a fancy private school and there were some kids that partied a lot, and co***ne was the drug of choice my senior year. I was middle of the road (not a huge nerd, not super popular). I’m happy my parents were open and guided me enough that I made pretty good choices (a bit of drinking but never anything else). Absolutely talk to your kids. Make it clear these things could happen in the future, guide them to make good choices and make it clear that it’s an ongoing conversation and they can come to you for anything.
Anon
My friends and I were nerdy and also drank / some had sex in high school. We were all athletes so didn’t smoke cigarettes (and vapes weren’t a thing yet) but I knew kids (teammates) who smoked weed.
My mom teaches 9th grade and says she operates under the assumption that most, if not all, students are experimenting with alcohol, sex, drugs, AND other risky behaviors (unsafe driving, for example). She knows not every student does this and she knows that many students who do experiment start later than 9th grade, but it’s her general operating assumption.
Two things I’d recommend:
1) start talking about it yesterday. Approach these conversations so she feels comfortable asking questions or initiating conversations about these topics down the road.
2) encourage safe practices. I can discourage my kids from making poor choices, but I can’t prevent it. I can, however, be open with my expectations around this kind of behavior and be very clear that my expectations focus on safety.
My parents were pretty strict, so I’m trying to be more realistic. One thing I feel strongly about is that I don’t want my kids experimenting with alcohol for the first time in college. I knew a few kids who didn’t drink at all before college, didn’t know their limits, and ended up in scary situations during the first week of college (when they’re far from home and don’t have solid friends yet).
If my kids are going to be sexually active, I want them to be safe. To me that means being sexually active with a partner they trust who respects them, with protection and enthusiastic consent. If they’re ready to be sexually active, I can’t really stop it. If they feel like they need to hide that from me, they’re probably not going to be practicing safe sex.
I’m generally pretty strict, but also realistic.
Senior Attorney
And in addition to safe sex, if I had a daughter (I mean, I do, but when she was in high school I thought she was a son), I’d talk to her about sex and pleasure. As in, make sure it’s mutually pleasurable and don’t just let the boy get his and have it be just “meh” or worse for you!
Senior Attorney
And yes, upon reflection this is a talk we should all have (had) with our sons, too! Of course!
Anon
My personal struggle is that I want my kids to be SAFE and know that if they ever need a ride or help, they can call me but I don’t want to condone drinking, smoking, or drug use.
I think experimenting with all of the above in high school is normal, and while I’d prefer they don’t partake in risky behavior they probably will and it’s my job to ensure their safety.
I don’t know how to balance the “if you need help, give me a call no questions asked” with some sort of consequences. I do think consequences are needed, at least some of the time, because a) I don’t condone this behavior and don’t want to give tacit approval by not having any consequences and b) even if they call me and need help, there might be a truly unacceptable (to me situation). While I’d never tell my kids yet, if my 17 year old has a few beers in a friends basement and is otherwise safe and kind, I don’t care. However, if my 14 year old is drinking or my 17 year old is engaging in unsafe or unkind behavior with drinking then I really care, it is unacceptable and there should be consequences c) while I have really good, open relationships with my kids and we will be more like friends one day, that is not today. Today I am still the parent.
But, if we say “call us no matter what” and they do but are also punished for what they did, they’ll never call us again and could end up in an unsafe situation and make an unsafe choice in order to not get “caught”.
As for sex, I’m much more chill as long as they’re not just physically but also emotionally ready. I’m not a prude, but I do think teenage sex should be within the confines of a trusting, supportive relationship and should not be casual hookups. I’ve been talking with my kids about consent for a long, long time and do feel confident they understand that enthusiastic consent is needed from both parties. I’m very, very pro safe sex: I’m very supportive of my daughter being on birth control (she isn’t yet but I’ve made it clear if she wants it I’m supportive and want her to have it) and I plan on sending both son and daughter off to college with condoms. I’ve also been vocally pro-choice and am encouraging 17 year old to look at colleges in states that with legal abortion.
anon
I’m the commenter above at 9:27 AM. I think that in general when kids get in enough trouble that they need to make the 1 AM call to mom and dad, they’ve had an experience that is upsetting, scary, or harmful enough that it serves as its own consequence. I only had to do it once in high school, and I was so shaken that my parents didn’t punish me. Obviously these situations are going to be individual and you’ll have to make a decision in the moment, but yeah. My brother had to make a similar call (from a police station in his case) and my parents didn’t have to punish him – he was so freaked out that he basically grounded himself.
My parents successfully threaded the needle on setting boundaries without making me scared to ask them for help and while equipping me with information, and I hope to do the same. Another example: my mom was a s*x ed teacher. I was absolutely told that my parents did not support me having s*x in high school, but my mom also pointed out the local Planned Parenthood and educated me on birth control options. Ostensibly, she did this so I could “share information with my friends,” but she also wanted me to have that information for myself.
Senior Attorney
That’s what I think. I feel like people including teens know when they’ve screwed up and if they’re otherwise a decent person, you don’t need to pile on.
And I, for one, would not even consider sending my daughter to college in a state where she wouldn’t have reproductive rights, which boils down to the right to appropriate health care. Good grief.
Anon
You’re correct that if you tell your kid to call you no matter what, but then punish them for doing so, all you’re doing is encouraging them NOT to call you when they’re in that situation.
Don’t do that.
Anon
I have kids in college now. One had a serious boyfriend so sex happened. I’m not the kind of parent who is like I FORBID, it’s more about making sure she was prepared and wouldn’t get pregnant. I also know there was light drinking before things like dances and parties & she definitely tried weed.
And all of that said, she graduated with honors from undergrad and is in a competitive masters program now with bright prospects, as well as with a very nice boyfriend we are looking forward to welcoming into the family (which is in the works.)
My other kid didn’t do most of these things, maybe a small amount of weed, but he was a pandemic high school kid for his last year and a half, so it may just have been due to lack of opportunity. Most of his social life was online gaming so ….
He’s also doing really well in college, just finished a great internship, is over 21 and has an interest in craft beer, but no binge drinking. He had roommates for his first two years who would consistently drink until they vomited, and he’s just grossed out by it.
Your kids will most likely be exposed to all of this by high school if not middle school, so in my experience, the best thing is to start talking about it now and keep talking about it. Try to have an open mind and not be super forbidding – in my extended family, the kids in the most forbidding environments got into the most trouble, and this has been true over generations – what you really want is for your kid to feel comfortable talking to you about anything.
I told my daughter, who was the most social of my two kids, that if she was ever in a situation she was uncomfortable in, she could call or text me and I would come get her, no questions asked and she wouldn’t be in trouble. We even worked out a code she could text me so that I would call her and say she had to come home right now, so her friends would think it was me being a mean mom and not her wanting to leave. She never quite needed to use the “code” but she did use me as an excuse for leaving situations she didn’t want to be in, and I was fine with that.
It will be ok, Mama! I know they feel like our tiny helpless babies, and so much feels out of our control, but part of helping them grow into capable adults is letting them navigate situations on their own.
anon88
“Try to have an open mind and not be super forbidding – in my extended family, the kids in the most forbidding environments got into the most trouble, and this has been true over generations – what you really want is for your kid to feel comfortable talking to you about anything.”
This is the most important thing! My mom said verbatim that if I was in a situation I was uncomfortable with she would come get me no questions asked, and the same with the code thing, but my parents were also incredibly strict and I didn’t trust that it would actually be no questions asked, so I never ever would have called, even when I did get into sketchy situations.
Anan
I love tThe Puberty Podcasts for ideas on how to have difficult conversations with my kid. A good balance of science and psychology.
Anonymous
Read “Untangeld” by Lisa Damour.
Anon
I’ve been laid off twice in less than two years. Mass layoffs in both cases. One job I hated and it was kind of a blessing, but the other one—the more recent one—I loved and I’m still mourning it. Some days I have trouble getting out of bed.
I am financially fine, so at least I don’t have that as an immediate concern, but emotionally I am exhausted and sad. Really trying to keep myself busy, volunteer, exercise, etc, but I feel so pathetic. Just had to get that off my chest. I don’t want to burden anyone in my life with this—they all think I’m doing great.
Anon
Corporate America is imploding. I say this as one of the few conservatives on the board. It’s absolutely insane. For a while, I blamed myself, and then I saw the way these companies treated everyone else.
The three companies I’ve worked at before this one all blew up their legal departments. One offshored their legal work, to be supervised by American attorneys (no I am not kidding); one replaced attorneys with admins and moved the legal work to outside counsel; one fired or pushed out everyone from GC to admins, then desperately re-hired half of them back on when they had no institutional knowledge. They had to give the re-hires huge promotions and title bumps to get them back, which I guess works out for them but resulted in a top-heavy department (eg, half are VP level in a company that does not have a lot of VPs).
Anonymous
Please do tell the people in your life that you’re struggling with this and lean on them for support. I am sure they want to help and be there for you. It’s totally normal to be sad in difficult situations like this but consider getting support from your doc to get over the hump if you can’t shake it.
anon
+1. It sounds like you’ve been put through the wringer in the past couple of years, and that’s enough for anyone to feel adrift! I’m sorry this happened to you.
Anonymous
Layoffs happen to almost everyone throughout a career. I’m 50, and I can’t think of a single person in my high-achieving friend group who hasn’t gone through it at least once. The key is realizing it’s not you. Devote a certain amount of time each day to the job search and then keep doing what you’re doing by exercising, getting out doors, baking, or any other way to help stay busy. This time will soon pass. You’re totally normal in feeling what you’re feeling. The next job may go 10 years. Careers are long with many turns.
Anonymous
I’ve been there. PLEASE tell someone in real life about this. You’re not burdening them. People who love and like you want to know what you’re going through and want to be there for you. There’s no shame in struggling about all this. It sounds like your first job was very bad even before the layoff happened, so you’ve been on a work rollercoaster. This can be as damaging as any kind of other hardship or trauma. In fact, when I was in a similar situation, I needed antidepressants to help me get a foothold again and have energy to pick back up and try again. . If your second layoff was a while ago and you’re still having trouble getting out of bed and are still feeling sad and exhausted, you might consider talking with your doctor.
Anon
does anyone have a walking pad they recommend? i know there was one featured on the site a few weeks ago, but wanted to see if there are any other recs. priorities are quiet, easy to move and has a little bar you can pull up.
ANON
GoYouth on Amazon. Have had it over a year now and I use it a lot. Easy to roll up on its side and store right next to my desk. No bar, though.
Anon
tinkle razor suggestion?
Housecounsel
I just bought the Dermaplane. It’s expensive, but I decided it was worth the investment after I cut myself with a Tinkle razor and ended up with a scary infection.
Anon
I buy the actual Tinkle brand razors from the river store. I’ve found that they are best only used once or twice. I’ve never cut myself with them. I use them for my upper lip (much more than just peach fuzz) and over my cheeks, jaw, and chin for peach fuzz.
Anon
You can say Amazon.
I find that the Tinkle razors aren’t good for multiple uses either. Following for other recs.
Anon
Every time I actually type it out, I’m stuck in mod forever.
ABanon
“Aboutface” brand with the orange handles
Anonymous
I just get the ones from Amazon; I only use them twice, max.
What does everyone do about that “sideburn area” in front of your ears? I’ve heard not to touch it but I thought I could clean it up a bit and I totally screwed it up because now it looks like I shaved.
ha
I’m surprised by several comments here.
I use the Tinkle brand razors, many many times before throwing away.
I give a quick wash with soap between uses. Takes seconds.
I only use them every week or two for full face (cheeks/chin/mustache/spot treat), and for quick spot treatments as needed.
I can’t imagine why you would need to throw them away after 1 or 2 uses.
I have very sensitive skin, am immunocompromised, and am quite careful with skin care.
I watched a couple videos about using them safely before starting. That was useful.
Use carefully etc..
Anon
I do too. I only throw one away when it starts to feel like I’m pulling on the hairs rather than shaving them. I use the name brand.
Housecounsel
I like this dress, but does anyone else feel like they look frumpy/matronly in belted shirtdresses? If they are blousy at all I feel like I have the figure of a hot water heater.
Anon
Agreed.
go for it
+1
anon
I posted yesterday that I look like Sheldon’s mom in a shirt dress (from Young Sheldon).
Vicky Austin
Oops, jinx!
Vicky Austin
Somebody commented yesterday saying they feel like it makes them look like Sheldon Cooper’s mother, and that’s where I fall too.
anon
Ha, it is quite a look. Very fundie vibes.
Anon
Same.
Anon
I find them to be very flattering on my figure. I don’t buy blousy ones though.
Anonymous
It’s an easy no for me because I don’t have much of a waist. But it’s fabulous on people who do!
Peaches
I’m straight up and down (built like a fridge) and I like shirtdresses with a substantial belt.
Anon
I am an hourglass and hate belted waist shirt dresses. :(
Anonymous
I don’t think shirt dresses work for my figure. I’m short, busty, with a short waist. Collared things aren’t great on me, adds too much bulk to my already bulky top. The middle always seems wrong too. If I can get it to fit my bust, there’s too much fabric everywhere else. I have a shirt dress from BR circa 2005(?) that was a fit and flare and it was the only shirt dress that has ever fit me close to right. I’ve stubbornly held onto it even though it’s a size too small because I’ve never found anything like it.
anon
And I’m the opposite. If it fits my hips, it is comically baggy on top. For me, shirt dresses are total fantasy wear. I love the style … on other people.
Anon
I’m short busty long waist. Still doesn’t work.
Anon
I would feel like Mrs. C in the featured dress.
When I was in my 20 & early 30s there was a phase where everything was cinched at the waist, which always made me feel like my hips were giant – I always had a relatively small waist, but my hips start high up and the contrast between my narrow waist and jutting hips felt very matronly to me.
Fortunately perimenopause took care of that and now I don’t have a small waist. And I still don’t look good in cinched waist styles! What the hell.
Anonymous
Random shower thought: plenty of crazy doomsday sects over the years have thought aliens/god will beam them up to utopia and leave the rest of us behind on X date. What if they were right but there were just too few of them for the rest of us to notice? I mean the world will end eventually, the sun will expand and burn up the earth one day, maybe their aliens/god had a “eons too soon but never a moment too late” outlook like the vet tells you with a sick animal.
Anon
It’s too early in the day for high thoughts.
Anon
Do you ever think about atoms, man, and how each atom could be its own universe…
Peaches
Magnets, how do they work?
Not Einstein
This is really interesting, actually, and very related to Einstein’s special relativity. Not going into details but special relativity shows how electric and magnetic fields are related and in many cases different. One of those exceptions is that for electricity, you can have a singular charge. That is, you can have an electron without a proton (and vis versa). For magnets, you can not have a north pole without a south pole.
Senior Attorney
Like, what if our universe is just an atom in a giant Coke bottle on a table in some giant universe?
Not Einstein
That would solve a lot of my work problems.
Not Einstein
As a physicist I feel compelled to reply to these rhetorical questions. Please do not think of atoms as a mini universe. This idea stems from the Bohr model of the atom, in which electrons orbit the nucleus like little planets. The Bohr model replaced the plum pudding model (in which you imagine the electrons embedded in a “pudding” of positive charge) and was replaced itself by a more modern understand of electrons. We now think of electrons as not having a distinct location but rather as existing somewhere in an atomic orbital. The orbital gives the area in which the electron is mostly like to exist.
Anon
I LOVE that our community has a physicist! Possibly several!
Anonymous
Whattttttttt
Anon
What
Anon
I think I’m ok with certain people getting raptured away or abducted.
Anon
Can we earmark specific candidates for rapturing purposes??
Senior Attorney
Right? Bring it!
Shelle
a favorite bumper sticker I’ve seen: In case of rapture can I have your car?
Anon
a favorite bumper sticker I’ve seen: In case of rapture can I have your car?
Anon
Hello Hive! Seeking recommendations for restaurants and experiences in the Rapid City area. I will be visiting with friends next month. Thanks!
Aquitaine
The museum of geology is great – there are quite a few paleontology/dinosaur dig sites around the area. If you’ve got a car you could also drive out to Deadwood.
Digby
Seconding the museum of geology. Also, Wind Cave and Jewel Cave aren’t too far if you have a car – maybe an hour to either. And the Badlands has some fun day hikes, also about an hour away.
NYNY
I have family in Rapid and around the Black Hills, and I love visiting there. My experience of restaurants in Rapid City itself isn’t great – lots of chains – but I have some ideas on experiences and places to eat in the region:
– If you’re going to Mt. Rushmore, make sure to also see Crazy Horse and spend some time at the visitor’s center there. It’s fascinating.
– I love walking around Devil’s Tower. Make sure you’ve all seen Close Encounters before you go.
– The Buffalo Jump Steakhouse in Beulah, WY is great for carnivores
– REDwater Kitchen in Spearfish is pretty good, and has vegatarian/vegan options
Also, I’ve never found Deadwood to be worth it. If you like to gamble, it’s good for that. But otherwise, it’s just endless faux old west gift shops and saloons. Pass.
South Dakotan
Tally’s for breakfast in Rapid City. If you’ll be in Custer, Hjem for brunch and Skogen Kitchen for dinner. The chef at Skogen was a James Beard nominee last year. It’s phenomenal.
IMO, Custer State Park is a much cooler attraction than Mount Rushmore. Lots of pretty hiking trails, with the opportunity to do more prairie centric v. Ponderosa pine forest hikes.
Anon
Mongolia . . .
Has anyone been? I am going at the end of July for something very specific but will have a couple of days either on the front or back end of my travel to save money on flights. I am flying into Ulaanbaatar. Any suggestions on things to see or do on my free days is greatly appreciated!
Anon
Definitely thought this said Magnolia, and I was utterly confused. “The Chip and Joanna Gaines place outside Waco? I’m sure a million fans have posted their experiences…”
Senior Attorney
Haha, me, too!
Anon
Me three!
Anon
Bahahahaha!!
Eowyn
I have no Mongolia recs for you, but are you doing the Mongol Derby? If, so I’m incredibly jealous and hope you have a fantastic time.
Anon
I am doing the Mongol Derby Academy! I am not sure if I would do the race if offered a spot, but am thrilled to have been offered a spot in the Academy! I am super excited.
Anonymous
OMG please report back on how this goes!
Peaches
No suggestions but I’m jealous. Please report back about your trip!
Anon
Thanks, I will!
Anonymous
So cool! Also this may have been one of the few times The Hive was unable to offer travel recs…
Anon
I have been! Look for Korean food if you find yourself craving vegetables, since Mongolian food is very heavy on the carbs and meat and light on the veggies.
Shopping suggestion: Mary and Martha, a fair trade store. They sell super cozy yak socks, and things with beautiful embroidery. I bought two embroidered purses there, one big and one little, and get compliments almost every time I use them. On my first date with my boyfriend we discovered we had both been to Mary and Martha, it’s the best store in Ulan Bataar. Also go to the national department store, they sell cashmere and yak wool products at (relatively) reasonable prices and the scarves are soooo cozy. The yak scarf I got there is my work shawl, it’s very neutral in terms of colors so it’s good for the office but it’s super warm.
There’s a cultural center that does a show that includes throat singing, which was cool. And the national museum has interesting dioramas and traditional clothing and gers from various time periods. I learned a lot about Mongolian history, I had known very little.
I’m not sure how to arrange it independently (I was on a tour), but we drove out to the national park via the giant Gengis Khan statue and spent one night in a ger in the park. It was freezing since all the wood in the stove burned out after a couple hours, but it was a fun experience and the hiking was good. There was also a cool monastery. Have fun!
Follow-Up Real Estate v Stock Investment
I posted late yesterday for advice about whether I should invest in a rental property. Just wanted to say thanks to all the people who responded. You gave me a lot of food for thought. I’ll post the original comment below for anyone interested.
Anonymous
There was an article in the NYT about whether or not you should buy a second home, I think a lot of those point apply to a rental property. We have neighbors who have a rental unit in a few towns over and while it works for them it’s only because they are handy and work shifts (nurse + police officer) so there is more weekday time for fixing things/running errands/checking in on tennant needs/collecting checks. It is 100% not something I could or would want to manage with my white color job that requires travel.
Original Comment
I will be inheriting 400k from my grandmother soon (will not be recieving an inheritance from either parent). I am considering investing in a rental property rather than putting the money in an investment account. Thoughts? I would be looking at property around $250-300k. Would probably put down 100k and take out a mortgage for the rest.
HHI: $260k (early 40s, 2 kids)
Fully funding 401ks every year and funding 529s
Mortgage $360k at a very low-interest rate
One car payment, which is over in 2026.
No student loans
500k in 401ks (started late)
500k in an investment account
50k emergency fund
Anon
Only if you want to be a landlord.
Anon
You got some really good answers yesterday.
Anonymous
I’d put it in vanguard. Rental property sounds like an absolute headache.
anon a mouse
I would not invest in rental property unless you want the property for some other reason. We had a rental property for years and even though it did very well, the maintenance and managing the property manager was a pain and was more expensive than I anticipated. Compared to being in the market at the same time, we came out about the same, but the rental property was a much bigger headache.
I’d top off your college funds (you could probably fully fund college at this point) and your investment funds and then cut back on your cash-flowed savings to be able to take some great trips and make memories with your kids.
OP
Thanks for suggesting this. I think part of the issue I’m having is that I can’t seem to give myself permission to spend any of the money on something without a return. It feels wrong somehow. I think I could wrap my head around using the money to fund some goals now (college, investments, etc.) and then repurposing some of our income for some more fun things like a fun family vacation.
Anon
This is exactly what I would do too.