Suit of the Week: Boss

66 Comments

1. I’m dating (online) for the first time in a while. Who usually pays on a 2nd date (thinking dinner and drinks). I live in a NYC suburb but grew up in the south so I always feel the guy should pay for at least the first few dates (although I always offer). However, what is normal, especially in the NYC area?

   1. First date = dutch , second date = man (speaking from my experience as a cis female)

   2. I always offer to split, 100% of the time. If he paid for the first date despite that, I would insist on paying for the second.

      1. This is smart, b/c once a guy starts paying for the date, you will be expected after date #2 to start paying him back “in kind”, which to most guys, means getting hot and heavy including the horizontal hora by date #4. If you don’t want this, just split the cost and you will not be expected to let him into your panties, EVER!

      2. +1 I think taking turns paying for meals is a nicer (but still equal) gesture than splitting each time.

   3. I usually always split.

   4. IME man pays first date, you should offer to go dutch on second date, the guy will usually turn you down but sometimes agree (and you shouldn’t be offended if he agrees, you offered). After that it’s kind of a play by ear sort of thing – some guys I’ve dated really preferred to pay, some guys we settled into a dutch or I pay sometimes he pays sometimes pattern – but that is typically when you go into relationship territory.

      1. This is my thought as well. I always offer to split the second date, and basically always the man says no and pays. I don’t argue about it. I am in the south, though.

      2. Eh, maybe you shouldn’t be offended but IME the guys who will agree to split end up being ungenerous jerks. It might be 2018, but that hasn’t erased everything.

   5. It’s 2018, you should be splitting the cost of dating.

      1. +1 yup, this.

      2. Disagree. It’s 2018, and you should OFFER to split the cost of dating. But he can also offer to cover the whole thing, and you can accept. Or you can offer to pay, and he can accept.

      3. I’ll be the dissenting voice. Women’s personal expenses tend to outrun men’s (hair, clothing, nails, hair removal, etc.). I don’t think it’s at all out of the question, despite the year, for men to pick up the bulk of eating and drinking out expenses, especially in the beginning (first six months or so). I’m in (non-rural) Texas, FWIW.

         1. I do typically offer, though.

         2. If you’re dating men who expect/demand those things, you’re dating the wrong men.

            1. Expect/demand vs appreciate? Runs on both sides. Do I expect/demand him to pick up the tab? No. Do I appreciate it? Yes.

   6. I’m in DC, not NYC. I found it to be a pretty even split between guys who insist on paying for the first few dates and those who are willing to split the bill. In my limited observation, I’ve noticed no real pattern to it – guys who insist on paying are not more likely to ask for a second date and there’s been great guys in both groups. Nor does it seem to have a true geographic pattern – maybe guys from the south are more insistent on paying (but not all of them), but I’ve had a lot of guys who grew up in the North and Midwest and West who also insisted on paying

   7. I’m in MSP, and I always offer, but if he insists on paying, I let him. I’d say we split it at least 2/3 of the time. Unless it seems like he might expect something (read: gardening) in exchange for him paying for dinner. To be fair, I only felt like this could be the case one time, I forced my card on the waiter when he came to run the check and then never went out with that guy again.

   8. Usually he has paid for the first date so I insist on paying for the second.

      1. +1 If I like him I say “I’ll get the next one” when he pays the tab at the end of the first date.

   9. Gross, sexist, outdated. Unless you’re looking for a sugar daddy, either split bills or take turns treating.

      1. This is how I see it.

         1. +1.

      2. That is just your opinion you don’t have to be rude. It is extremely common for men to pay on the first date in many parts of the country (and for “woke” feminist like you to get mad if they don’t even though you espouse differently). The general consensus seems to be he pays first date, then split or switch turns later. You’re clearly not reading and just wanted to jump react. Please stay out of it when people want real world reasonable advice – a man isn’t a sugar daddy for paying on a first day no more than you’re a prostitute for sleeping with a man who pays for your drink.

      3. My now husband paid for every single one of our early dates – I honestly can’t even remember how many dates, but it was a lot. I never found it gross, demeaning or outdated, and he is definitely not my sugar daddy. To each their own.

   10. I’m in Los Angeles, IME/IMO dutch is fine, as is taking turns. I haven’t experienced a man agreeing to be paid for, but I wouldn’t theoretically be against it. IME Asian men I’ve dated (fwiw, I’m Asian) take a more traditionalist view and act personally offended if I offer, American born/raised Asians and any others who grew up in America are open to going dutch.

   11. I am currently dating a man where I make roughly 10x more money than he does. To his credit, he has never found this to be an issue, but I always offer to split the bill. Spoiler: He never accepts.

2. Afternoon funny for you all:
   I’m an accountant for a hospital, but this is my first healthcare job and I’m still playing catch-up on a lot of terms that nurses, etc. all know. Today I had to email the supply manager to ask about the unit price of emesis bags. She called immediately to jokingly ask if I was puking – and that’s how I found out what emesis means!

   1. That’s probably the nicest way anyone has ever learned what an emesis bag is. :)

3. My parents have decided to take our immediate family to Nashville over Easter, flying in on Thursday and flying out Monday morning – and want me to help with some of the research of what to do and where to stay. If anyone can help me sort this out I would be forever grateful.

   What neighborhood should we stay in? We need an Airbnb/VRBO with 4 bedrooms. There are several options, and they found one near the Grand Old Opry that looks nice, but that seems far away from downtown, The Gulch, and everything else. Next, where should we go – particularly, what’s good for a group of 6 and what might we split up to do? No one is a mega-fan, but we do all like country music, and will definitely get tickets for the Opry one night. I think we need two rental cars so we can split up, but one of them should have 3 rows so we can pile in to go places together where parking might be an issue.

   The players: Myself (30s) and younger sister (she’s over 21): interested in boutiques, cute neighborhoods, antiques, history, old houses, bougie coffee/cocktails, would be into doing a food tour and like BBQ but don’t want to eat it at every meal. Mother: likes the things we like but does not move quickly. Brother and father: Are going to want to eat all the BBQ, will also go for a good steak, do not value vegetables as a part of vacation diet. Will want to see all the most touristy stuff, are into history, distilleries, and drinking beer. Brother’s girlfriend: a little bit of a wild card, will likely want to do whatever brother is doing.

   1. Oooh you and your sister and mom should check out Old Made Good (on insta now, in person later). When I was there I stayed in the Wedgewood/Houston area and it was cute! I loved the cocktails at Bastion. We had breakfast at Dozen Bakery and immediately went to the craft distillery that shared its parking lot, then to the art gallery across the street. Yazoo brewing is fun! There was some cute shopping on/near Fatherland Street in East End. I loved Lipstick Lounge for a ridiculously welcoming, queer-friendly bar with decent food and awesome karaoke.

      1. I love country music but managed not to do much of anything country-ish either time I was in Nashville this year. There’s a main downtown drag, though (Broadway?), where you can pop into any bar and hear great live music. I was too full of hipster cocktails and amazing asian fusion food to really be up for beer and country music the night I checked it out. I’ll have to come back.

         1. I was in Nashville for a conference a few months ago and went “honky-tonking” with a group down Broadway. You can just pop in and out of the bars (no covers), and if you went up to the second floor (many had a band playing on each of several floors), it was mostly drunkish gen-xers letting loose to grunge music, rather than country. It was actually really fun. I’ve been meaning to go back with my husband. (So, I’d consider staying within walking distance of that area (downtown), to do that.) (I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express, and it was fine.)

   2. I currently live in Nashville. You should not stay near the Opry for any of the things you are looking for. I have actually lived here for 7 years and never gone to see a show at the Opry– that is how much I dislike that area of town. It is just a giant mall + the Opry that they build on top of Opryland.

      Any Airbnb/VRBO that size is going to be very expensive (though still may be cheaper than a hotel). Short-term rentals are gradually being phased out in Nash. If you can find something cost-effective, the neighborhoods that you would want to stay in are generally the areas around downtown– Germantown, Sylvan Park, 12th South, Hillboro Village, most of East Nashville, etc. The Gulch has some good restaurants but is kind of just a collection of buildings that have been built in the past 5-10 years.

      Most of the neighborhoods you would be visiting as a tourist are walkable once you get to them (and parking is awful), so you can get around really well by Uber/Lyft/scooter within the city. If you are wanting to go to see the Hermitage, Carnton Plantation, or Belle Meade Plantation, you will need a car.

      Nashville is not known for its BBQ at all, but there are a few people from Memphis that have opened Memphis BBQ places here. Peg Leg Porker is the best of these. Edley’s is very popular also.

      You should absolutely visit Greenbrier Distillery (which is also on the Old Town Trolley tour). I think it’s gotten more popular lately, so you may need to call ahead. Best brewery IMO is Bearded Iris in Germantown. The majority of the breweries here are in more residential neighborhoods that you will need a car to get to. Also, I know there are brewery tours (bc I see them pass my house) and food tours. I think the food tours primarily hit up places that have only existed for a couple of years though, so basically, they exist for tourists and go to primarily tourist places. Not sure I would recommend any of them.

   3. Near the Grand Old Opry would not be my first or even second choice. It’s a bit out of the way. In order: downtown, the Gulch, Vanderbilt/West End area. I would get as close to walking distance to meals and attractions as possible. Nashville traffic is heavy and aggressive. Parking is likely an issue. Minimize driving as much as possible. Neighborhoods with good restaurants and interesting shops include Germantown and 12South. There is a publication called the Nashville Scene that has a decent webs!te for getting info on restaurants, shows, music, and just generally what’s going on around town. I would recommend spending some time looking at the info there. Also, on Facebook, look at StyleBlueprint Nashville for restaurant and shopping/gallery info. If you want a souvenir that’s not just another souvenir, go to Hatch Show Print. Eat some Nashville Hot Chicken. My personal preference is the original, Prince’s, in their original location. It’s a seedy location, but basically ok. The line is usually a long wait, and if you get to talking to people it wouldn’t be unusual to find that you are in line with Vanderbilt students, tourists, prostitutes, highway workers, office workers, unemployed, and/or business owners. Margot in East Nashville and City House in Germantown are great restaurants that have been around a while. I can recommend Easter Brunch at the Hermitage Hotel and also recommend that you make reservations soon if you are interested in that. The Jack Daniel Distillery is about an hour and a half away, but it’s a good tour and the little town of Lynchburg is charming.

   4. Coming in late, but perhaps you will check again. I took a very similar trip last month, sans anyone who likes country music or insisted on BBQ, rejects veg. Stayed in a hotel in the Gulch, which was fine but not as close to things as some would have preferred since for some reason we were determined not to use a car (but did use taxis and lyft). We went to the Opry and it was worth doing. Would not stay near there – too far. I’d actually recommend the hop-on-hop-off tour bus for the first day to knock out some touristy stuff and get the lay of the land. We split up but all eventually chose to get off at the Johnny Cash Museum (liked a lot), the park/Parthenon and farmer’s market, and Hattie B’s (yum but Prince’s is better). We also very much liked the Frist Museum (and I am a very reluctant art museum visitor). I missed it, but Peg Leg BBQ was a hit. BBQ near the Opry was fine. We ate fine dining dinners otherwise.

   5. We went last year and enjoyed the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum as well as President Jackson’s Hermitage (a bit outside of town). The Parthenon is cool but strange (I am very glad we went; it was the only thing I remembered from a family visit as a teenager). We had free line dancing lessons at a restaurant/bar called Wild Horse Saloon which was enjoyable with our school-age children.

4. I need some advice. My sister may file for a divorce. She is in India. She is in a very abusive relationship with an extreme narcissistic person and in-laws. It has been going on for six years and our family has always made it very clear that we all are going to support her if she leaves him. Looks like she will be making that decision soon. She and my mother will be meeting a lawyer this week. She is 33 and has a very well paid job.

   I am very hurt that she has go through all this, but at the same time relieved that there is an end to this. What did you ladies expect from your family to get through this phase and what helped you a lot?

   1. I’m Indian and my sister was in a very abusive relationship and thankfully, got divorced. I think the best thing you can do is to be in touch — call her often, email, text. Just show her you are there for her. You don’t always need to talk about the divorce, either (I would let her take the lead on how much she wants to talk about it). Just having someone to make you laugh during a tough time can be immensely comforting.

      To the extent that there are folks in the extended family who disapprove of the decision to divorce, I would shield her from this information and set them straight. We had a few folks like this (divorce is bad!) and we quickly shut that all down.

      The good thing is that divorce for the most part is no longer a big taboo as it used to be in Indian culture (my parents are divorced as well and that was a huge scandal in our social circle in the 90s).

   2. Take her side. Don’t play devil’s advocate. Don’t try to make it about you (I’m looking at my own sister here, who reminded me that she was also grieving because she was losing a brother in law). Listen to her when she needs listening to, don’t try to fix everything for her (now I’m looking at me here) and take her out to do something fun to distract her when she seems like it is all too much.

   3. Thank you for the advice. How much to talk about this is something that I worry about. I want her to know that she can talk about it any time, but don’t want to initiate it all the time and want give her the space she needs. I have to stop myself from giving too much advice and trying to fix things for her (which I know I tend to do).

      As our family is in India, there will be gossip and smugness from relatives, but we have reached a point where we are worried for her safety. She will be in therapy starting this week. She will be with my parents on the weekends (different city) and once she moves out of the house and gets her own apartment, my mom/aunt will be with her all the time so that she has some one to talk, to go out , to eat with etc and she doesn’t have worry about taking care anything else other than herself.

5. I’ve been told a job offer is coming my way in the next few days. In my interviews I asked questions about flexibility, workload and culture, but didn’t specifically ask about schedules or typical hours worked per week. My current role is about 55-60 hrs a week, and while I don’t mind those hours occasionally, I’d prefer to work closer to 45 hrs a week on average (which is typical for the type of work I do). I’m hesitant to ask about hours because I don’t want to seem like someone who isn’t ever willing to work over 40 hrs. Any tips on phrasing the question? My plan is to wait and ask once the offer is official.

   1. Can you reach out to a fellow employee on Linkedin or through whatever network? In my experience employers always announce they have the best work life balance ever, even when it’s not true at all.

   2. Ideally in the interview, you would have asked about the typical workload or typical cadence of the team – are there busier times, what are those like, what are the factors that influence those busier times, etc.

      After the offer, you can ask about logistics. “From a logistics standpoint, what are the typical hours for the team? Are there core hours or is it more flexible? Does the team tend to work late hours in the office, or work later from home when busier times come?” From the answers to those questions, you can usually segue into “Oh, are those busier times at regular intervals or more unpredictable?” and get some of your intel that way.

6. I love the cut of this jacket so, so much. I love the open, no button without a collar. But definitely out of my price range. Anyone aware of a more affordable option?

   1. Talbots has an almost identical cut but might need tailoring to get a good fit. Easy travel suiting jacket. Only black and navy – not gorgeous like this color.

   2. The J. Crew “Going-Out” blazer has a similar cut, so you could check that out.

   3. Maybe the J. Crew Going Out Blazer?

      1. +1 — I wear mine often enough that I actually would have paid full price ~$150, though they are OCCASIONALLY part of sitewide promos.

   4. I got an Ann Klein blazer like this from Macy’s (https://www.macys.com/shop/product/anne-klein-open-front-blazer?ID=7213044&CategoryID=120#fn=sp%3D1%26spc%3D41%26ruleId%3D78%26kws%3Dann%20klein%20blazer%26searchPass%3DexactMultiMatch%26slotId%3D5 but mine was black not red) and although I was worried about the fabric looking cheap, I’ve gotten a ton of compliments on it (I also bought matching pants). And it never, ever, ever, ever wrinkles.

7. I’m looking for suggestions for my exit interview tomorrow. I’m in biglaw and headed in-house to an important client, so I have a good bit of leverage at this point. I’m in a hard-driving deal practice in a hard-driving firm. I’ve experienced several mental health issues this past year, directly related to overwork and treatment by partners. I’ve also become the person many junior associates confide in and have seen a number of mental health concerns and their direct effects among my peers (depression, anxiety, bullying, drugs, drinking, misuse of prescription pills, etc.). All of this is likely pretty typical for a firm like mine.

   During my exit interview I would like to provide a constructive list of steps the firm can take to address mental health among associates. Holding weekly meditation sessions (only attended by staff!) isn’t going to cut it, nor is the standard EAP program. A few items I have so far: the firm’s (anonymous) coverage of cost for online therapy such as Talkspace (which has been an enormous help to me over the past year when I had no time to leave the office, but I had to pay entirely out of pocket); a more open discussion with associates on hours expectations so junior associates know when they are allowed to say no to more work; building a real HR department at the firm, not just HR dedicated to recruitment (so including HR professionals who are trained to handle reports of abuse or assist associates who are reporting mental health concerns); and people management training for partners and senior attorneys, the way managers in large, well-run companies would receive.

   I intend to keep this discussion constructive and not dwell on my own health issues from the past year (or otherwise make this personal). I also understand that many of these suggestions are pretty radical for biglaw and it’s extremely unlikely that the firm will act on any of this. But change starts in very small ways and I do feel that I am in a unique position to have this conversation without personal blow back.

   What constructive suggestions would you give your firm/company to address mental health? Thanks!

   1. No one cares. You’ll come off as crazy and burn a bridge and nothing will change.

      1. +1 million. You’re (at best) wasting breath. An exit interview isn’t an “ideas to restructure our HR role and benefits” session.

      2. No matter how much you try to make it not about yourself, they will just be thinking “bullet dodged.”

   2. Don’t do it. You’re out of there and you need to focus on yourself right now. There is no need to take this on.

   3. As someone who’s worked at 5 biglaw firms as both staff (sr corp paralegal) and associate, if you don’t want this to just be an HR person nodding and smiling during your exit interview and binning the idea, go to lunch with an important partner to discuss this. Nothing happens at any law firm without partners spearheading it. Bubbling this up from HR is not going to cut it. Separately, put your concerns in writing and forward them to a few partners who are also important, and perhaps even consider going to a partner with whom you are close to ask how to best float this. It’s very hard to effect change from below, even harder when you’re outside (or leaving) an organization. I can say (as someone who is recently new to in-house life) that only having “one” client that has a sense of everything on my plate, versus many who want me to be their FT outside GC, it is refreshing being in-house, unless you are understaffed. Then it sucks just as much as biglaw.

      1. Yeah, this needs to be partner-driven. HR isn’t likely to stick their necks out on a project that’s going to be expensive/partners see as patronizing.

         I think your argument will be best if it’s couched in a way that highlights the positive these changes will have on the partners themselves, rather than the associates. I.e.: How will implementing these help the bottom line? Has turnover among associates caused clients to object to bills as inflated/duplicative? Has the practice been bleeding women so the firm’s stats don’t look as good to clients conducting diversity surveys? Sadly, that will probably get their attention more than any “mental health is important” message you try to send.

         1. +1 to this. I don’t think there’s an issue raising this but your exit interview is not the right audience and is probably a waste of your time. If you feel strongly about raising these concerns/ideas, I’d suggest raising it with a partner or group of partners. And Cat is absolutely right, appealing to partners humanity is likely going to be ineffective. You need to appeal to things that affect the bottom line/their lives. Attorney turnover is expensive, that’s one avenue to go down. You could also appeal to the annoyance of turnover, if a partners go to associate leaves they have to spend time finding a replacement. This argument works less if you’re more junior though. Juniors leaving usually only makes life hard for the mid level associates so partners tend to care less as they don’t have to deal with the direct effect of the departures and Juniors are also easier to replace (at least in theory, hiring a s”bad” junior associate doesn’t make life easier for the rest of the associates but the partner is generally sheltered from any effect of the “bad” associate for a long time). You could also try pitching your ideas as a recruiting tool or a business development/marketing tool, as that’s something most big firms care deeply about. Basically, look where your firm spends money, since that tells you what they value, and then tailor your pitch for these ideas in a way that speaks to those values. In any event, your exit interview is unlikely to be an effective way to pitch this – someone from HR will nod and smile and jot down notes that get sent to a file that no one ever looks at again unless you decide you want to rejoin the firm down the road.

      2. Yeah, this. They probably couldn’t care less about associates’ health. I left biglaw for a variety of reasons, but one was an unsafe work environment. I was expected to be able to stay up for days on end working, and eventually collapsed from extreme overwork and sleep deprivation (>4 days awake). This scared the sh!t out of me, and realized the job was going to kill me if I didn’t leave. I mentioned my concerns to a partner I trusted (or thought I trusted), and she didn’t care. All she cared about was whether her binders were made for her on time.

   4. Re: exit interviews. There’s a lot of advice on this board to say nothing, and that it only burns a bridge. I personally think that is so chickensh!t and selfish. I had an exit interview where I professionally, and diplomatically, called out discrimination against women in the department. (Only men had leadership potential.) Other women left around the same time that I did, and we all had a consistent message. The women who remained noticed a difference afterwards. There was some change up in the department leadership and a couple women were invited to the table. You can be smart and brave.

      1. Thanks for saying this! I’ve never been in the position to do an exit interview, but I always think this same thing anytime I read the advice on this board about the topic.

         More anecdata: I have a friend who did an exit interview with the board at a pretty big non-profit and it ended up having consequences for the nightmarish ED.

      2. I think it depends on the organization, but in my experience, exit interviews in biglaw are just a formality. Both I and a lot of my friends would pick one thing to give constructive feedback about during our exit interviews. Not a single one of us saw any improvements at our former firms. And coming with that radical of the proposal would make you seem out of touch at any firm I know. This may work in a corporate environment but just doesn’t seem to be the way biglad works

      3. It sounds like there were reasons to think this would make a difference though: a bunch of women leaving at once in solidarity conveying a consistent message. And hopefully you all had somewhere to leave to. You had power, you had numbers, and there were consequences for the company.

         I don’t know anything about law, but if there are already, for example, three anonymous glass door reviews from before my time that hit it on the nail, I figure my interviewers have already heard everything I have to say and don’t care.

   5. Agree with others – exit interviews are formalities and can only hurt, never help. Just say thanks for the opportunity and get your benefits questions answered etc.

      And then move on. This is not your problem to fix.

   6. I mean this as helpfully as possible: Do you really think they don’t know about these ideas and that you raising them will be helpful?
      The ABA and others have all issued reports with suggestions for things firms can do to support attorney mental health. A simple google search would give them lots of ideas. And the firm is likely being pitched all the time by companies that do the kinds of trainings you’re referring to. And if not, again, google would give them companies that do this.
      Here’s another thing to consider: After they sit and nod their heads, what happens when the client you are leaving to work for declares bankruptcy next month or a new GC comes in and cleans house? I was in big law a long time and need more than two hands to count the number of people who thought they had “leverage” on the way out the door, then needed to ask for something — whether a reference or their job back — within a few months. It’s admirable that you want to change the environment, but that comes from people in the firm doing something, which means talking to partners. And I say this as someone who left as part of an exodus of women who life a firm within a 3 month period. They made changes after we left, but only because the partners who remained realized they had to.

   7. Leave and don’t look back. They are just going through the motion’s in their exit interviews. Don’t give them anything they can share with your new job. You had issues there BECAUSE of them, so getting a fresh start at a new firm is best. I had this issue with my subpeenie firm. They always squeezed my tuchus. I did NOT put my tuchus out there for them to squeeze. There’s a difference, so why would I tell them what they already know — that they are dirt bags that squeezed my tuchus with impunity and some rubbed up against me to feel my boobies? What good would that have done? They were the one’s doing that! And they probabley would have squeezed my tuchus again on the way out the door! So FOOEY on them and good luck on the new job! YAY to you for moving on!!!!!!!

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