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Updated: Jun 18, 2021 282 Comments · by

Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Textured-Satin Gathered-Neck Top

The Personal Shopper (TPS) |

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This pretty, feminine blouse from Express would be a great summer wardrobe addition. The gathered top makes it a little more interesting than your standard crewneck, and the satin fabric looks a bit more polished than a T-shirt.

I would wear this pale pink color with a navy suit for a formal office look, but the blush taupe version would also be a great neutral.

The top is $50 at Express and comes in sizes XXS–XL.

Sales of note for 9.16.24

Sales of note for 9.16.24

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About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Anon

    I love the color of this blouse. Unfortunately necklines like this make me feel choked.

  2. Pretty top!

    What dry shampoo do you use? I’ve been using Not My Mother which is great at making day old hair look less oily but it also collapses all volume and leaves me with helmet hair. Any better options?

    • Monday

      When I had long hair, I felt strongly about Bumble & Bumble Pret A Powder. Now that I have a pixie it doesn’t matter as much what I use. But if you have long hair, the B&B may be worth the price.

    • Anon

      Living Proof. Pricier than NYM or Batiste, but I’ll usually wait for a sale and then buy 3-4 cans at once.

    • Anonymous

      I’m not a fan of most dry shampoo scents, and a bit of baby powder, brushed through my hair, seems to work well for me.

      • LaurenB

        Yeah, honestly I never got why one would use dry shampoo when baby powder does the same thing. I also don’t get why one would regularly use dry shampoo to the point where you’d need to make it a regular purchase — I think of it as more an emergency thing — wouldn’t you just then make it a point to wash your hair more often? Granted, I have stick-straight hair — perhaps those with curly hair have different needs from mine.

        • Anon

          It’s a huge chore to wash and dry my thick hair. It takes hours. Dry shampoo is necessary! Only the parts where I regularly touch my hair need it (around my face)

    • CHL

      On “National Dry Shampoo Day” (…) I got a free gift of like 8 dry shampoo samples from Ulta which was really great to try different ones. There are really different formulas so it may be worth your while to get a couple travel sizes to check them out. My favorite is Klorane (both spray and powder, but the powder isn’t for everyone). I also liked Living Proof but not to the degree I thought it was worth the money. For me the Bumble and Bumble scent was too strong. I’m currently enjoying the sample of the Redken Deep Clean dry shampoo.

      • Anonymous

        I really like Klorane too, but not the price. Batiste works just as well for me.

    • Anonymous

      I like Dry Bar’s spray. The powders I’ve tried from various brands always seem to unevenly distribute or not blend well (and I’m a blonde). If you don’t like Dry Bar’s scent (I do) or cost, then Suave’s spray is a pretty good dupe.

    • Anonymous

      I like Dove. They have travel size cans so it’s inexpensive to give it a whirl.

    • Seventh Sister

      I’ve tried a lot and I like the Aussie brand one. It’s cheap and doesn’t make my dark hair look reddish/orange.

  3. The Original ...

    Let’s Play a Game…

    What was the best year of your life (so far, of course) and why was it your best?

    • BeenThatGuy

      2015. It was the year leading up to my 40th birthday and I was in a huge rut in my life. I challenged myself to do 1 thing per month that scared me or I had always wanted to do. I took a trip by myself to somewhere I always wanted to go, I got a huge tattoo that I wanted for a decade, I asked a hot guy at a bar for his phone number (have been with him every since) and many other things. It was liberating and I was so proud of all my accomplishments. I went into my 40’s more confident and happy than I’d ever been in my life.

    • MechanicalKeyboard

      2007! I’d just finished undergrad, looked great, finally grew into myself and felt comfortable in my body, had tons of friends and was very popular, made my own money and had fun literally everyday. Also, it was my last “good” year for awhile. It was the year before a huge depressive episode, an alienating move, and an accident that left me injured for years. I’d say things didn’t really become “good” again until about ten years later and I definitely didn’t look as hot during the next go around. lol

      • anon

        22 was really awesome for similar reasons. I graduated, had a fun summer at home before moving to what I thought was my dream city. I first moved there and had a very low paying job (so I worked 2 jobs) and struggled to make ends meet but after 6ish months there I landed my “dream job”. I remember feeling so grown up living in the big city, working a job I’d only dreamed of, going out every weekend, etc. Even just like going grocery shopping and meal prepping in my tiny apartment kitchen or taking the metro to work felt exciting in those days.

        I’ve since left the job and the city (and the shininess wore off fairly quickly – by the time I left 2 years later I did not like living there) but at the time it felt like I had “made it”.

        On the flip side – 22 absolutely sucked because I lost three very close relatives that year, was unemployed for 4 months, lived paycheck to paycheck for most of the year, and for the first few months worked so much I didn’t have time to have fun. But even all of that (minus the relatives passing) felt what I’d imagined “first year in the city” would feel like and was fun in its own way.

        Im hoping that 28 will feel the same way – looking to move again, get a new job, etc. and kind of have that fun fresh start.

    • Walnut

      2018. I took a huge professional risk, my husband was all in and jumped with me and became unexpectedly pregnant with my third.

      2021 me wouldn’t have changed a thing about my 2018 decisions.

    • Anonymous

      2018, probably. Got married (which also meant I got to see all my friends, even the ones who live on the other side of the world that we only get to see like once or twice a decade), had an amazing trip for our honeymoon, was in great shape (because wedding), and bought my own horse, which was a dream since childhood.

      Though all the college years were pretty amazing, too. I wish I had that much free time again:-)

    • Anonymous

      2003 -was travelling in Europe, met DH, attended a couple great international conferences, started law school at my dream school

      Close second – 2014 – twins were born and moved into dream house. My sister’s baby was stillborn at 40 weeks that year though so it will never be a year I look back on with complete joy.

    • Anonymous

      2017 or 2019, but I’d give the edge to 2019 at age 31. I got to travel a lot in both years and reconnected with family & friends, which made up a lot for the clusterf***s 2018 and 2020 were for me. 2019 has the edge because I was working through the aftermath of a terrible breakup at the end of 2018, whereas in 2017 I was still in that bad relationship. Also, in 2019, I worked hard (in the sense of technical work and making social connections) and got promoted in 2020 because of that.

    • Curious

      It’s funny, because this past year (trailing twelve months) had so many awful things, and yet I still think this is the best my life has ever been. Two friends had babies; we bought a house; I am doing well at work; my anti depressant WORKS; we are expecting our first child; despite pandemic I have gotten to see family (lots of quarantine) and we are now vaccinated; Biden got elected; I love my friends and where I am in life. Isn’t that ridiculously lucky?

      • Curious

        Oh, and being pregnant taught me to ask for help/ pay for help/ lower my expectations, and some of the lessons learned have been life changing. Like my husband meant it all these years when he said he doesn’t expect me to cook healthy dinners 4+ nights a week, even though he’s not much of a cook. He’s perfectly ok with fending for both of us and more grateful when I cook if I don’t martyr myself over it.

    • AIMS

      When I was 34. I got pregnant, had a baby, felt and looked better than ever somehow without at all trying, had a ton of energy through it all, work was great, home life was great, whatever was missing I felt I was working towards, life just felt optimistic? … I honestly don’t know that I will ever feel that ‘with it’ again.

      I’ve been objectively fine since, but the Trump years made me depressed about the state of the world, I developed some mild anxiety after I weaned, my second pregnancy was harder, work is now super stressful in a way that just isn’t rewarding anymore, two kids is so so so hard sometimes that I feel like I am failing as a parent … I’m sure life will get easier as everyone gets older but right now I would love for it to be 2015 for just a few days again.

      • Curious

        Hugs. I bet I’ll say exactly this in 5 years. I hope there’s a rainbow on the other end for you and for all parents. They tell me the early years are just so hard.

        Also, my 20s were miserable with untreated mild to moderate depression and anxiety. Hope you can get the medical support you need. Mental illness sucks.

        • Curious

          Amendment. let’s pray if I say this, it’s minus the Trump part. *shudders*.

    • No Face

      2016-2017. I had my beautiful first baby and bounced right back (career-wise, physically, emotionally). I was killing it at work. We travelled frequently, even with baby. I had so much hope for my future.

      With the exception of my beautiful second baby and increased financial security, everything went downhill from there. Health problems, surgeries, car accident, multiple career derailments and job changes, pandemic. I am still very grateful for my life because I have it easier than most people, but I have not really enjoyed it that much these last few years. I’m figuratively limping through life.

    • Anon

      The year I graduated from college. I graduated in 2010, could only find a job in a coffee shop, but I had so much fun that year with my friends as we navigated that transition to adulthood. I was single but wanted to be, and that made it very fun as well. I also think I started to be depressed after that year and so for a long while it was the last year I remembered being happy. Thankfully I started treating that depression.

    • Senior Attorney

      It’s my position that every year is the best and I’m sticking to that.

      That said, 2016 was pretty great because I got engaged and married mio sposo all in six months (after dating for a couple of years). And 2015 was also amazing because I was dating him while fulfilling a longtime dream of buying and renovating my very own house.

    • anon

      2002-2003. I spent a year in NY and lived with two really good friends. It almost felt like a version of Friends. I was doing an unpaid internship and waitressing at night and on weekends, and I have never been so poor in my life, but it didn’t matter because I was 23 years old and it felt like the world held so much promise. And I think the sense of community in our sweet brownstone building where we knew all the neighbors really contributed. I was just happy. And it was so exciting to be in NY. Even though I’m such an introvert, I think that community feel was really good for me – it made me come out of my shell.
      Things never got that good again but I look back on that year fondly.

      • Curious

        There is something very special about New York with next to no money right after college. I did it too and it would be my top year if my depression had been treated. Magical.

    • Anon

      Probably 2019?I had my daughter in 2018 so that year had the greatest joy but I feel like (barring the pandemic) day-to-day life is generally getting easier and more fun all the time as she gets older. I have to say 2021 has also been phenomenal so far. Getting to reunite with her grandparents after a year apart and travel again has brought me an immense amount of joy. And even little things like going to restaurants bring so much joy now because we didn’t do them for so long.

  4. Anonymous

    Has anyone shopped from Farm Rio? It showed up in my social media feed and OMG so cute! So spendy, but maybe it is also good stuff?

    • bbb

      I love their stuff too. I have one shirt from there that is great – very nice quality and obviously super thoughtful design.

      • Anon

        Thanks — I am itching for a change and I get e-mails from the same 3 mall stores. It’s fine, but in the summer I am a magpie for colorful things that look like they’d go well with a cold drink.

    • Anonymous

      I love their stuff. I use Rent the Runway and routinely rent their things all summer. Super cute and flattering – I always get lots of compliments. Looks and feels high quality.

    • Anon

      Love their stuff. Spendy but so fun. Every time I go into the Soho store I come out with something new…

    • Anonymously

      Yes! I feel that it is so on target for this summer in particular. Fun, bright, wild—the perfect antithesis to all the ditsy floral nightgowns out there. I smile every time I put on the piece I have! I will say for me it runs large (style dependent I’m sure) but I love that it’s all cotton, lined and great trim detailing.

  5. The Original ...

    One More Game for Friday…

    What’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever gotten?

    • Ellen

      I usually don’t participate in these games, but I could NOT resist this one b/c it should apply to everyone on this sight, nameley, my Grandma Leyeh told me years ago, when I was about to go away to college:

      She said: “You are a wonderful and young girl about to embark on the biggest thing so far, so remember that you will always be wonderful, but you will not always remain young. Cherish your youth and innocent, and do not grow up any faster then you have to. By this, I mean you will have ampel opportunity to meet men, have a family, get married, etc, so don’t rush it by trying to be an adult to soon. So, when college men approach you and tell you stuff that compliments you and makes you woozy b/c no man has ever said this to you before, don’t just look at them and think they are the one you have been waiting for. Be selective about what you do and who you do it with–whatever it is. Everything from cooking a meal together to things afterward, do not rush into it. There will be plenty of time for that. Your job now is to go and learn new things and get an education at GW, which is an excellent school for you. You can only get a GW education at GW. You can do the other things anywhere any time. So go out and enjoy your youth!”

      I may not have written everything word for word, but this was the jist of it. As a result, I did NOT fall for many men who wanted to sleep with me, and for that I am grateful. Thank you Grandma Leyeh!

    • Monday

      One time when I was around 8 years old, I was being rowdy and mouthy in the school library. The librarian dressed me down and closed with “you don’t learn anything with your mouth open.” I am a very assertive and vocal person when I need to be, but there’s also a time–for everyone–to shut up and listen.

      I don’t know if this is the *best* advice I’ve ever gotten, but obviously it has stuck in my memory!

      • CMS

        People are paying far less attention to you than you imagine.

        One of the most important skills to learn is how to give a good apology. Look the person in the eye, speaking clearly and directly, and say you are sorry without caveats.

      • Monday

        Very much this. It has never failed.

        Similarly, in dating, when someone tells you they’re not good enough for you, it’s always true. They’re managing your expectations and can’t be trusted.

        • Anone

          Disagree. My now-husband of 21 years to whom I am happily married said something like this to me when we were dating. He was just insecure .

      • Anon

        Another one for dating – interested men pursue, disinterested men do not. No need to tie yourself up in knots trying to read between lines and all that. Truly, if he likes you, you’ll know!

    • Cb

      Job, location, people – you can pick two.
      A dirty house is the only problem you can solve with money.

      Both courtesy of a very wise beyond her years colleague at my first job.

      • Anon

        Similar one –
        Fulfilling work, Great pay, Work-life balance : you can only pick two. If you are unlucky, you may only get one.

      • Anonymous

        It’s not really a hike per se but the Cloisters is beautiful, nice to walk around , and easy to get to on the 1 or A subway.

    • Anon

      Work: You don’t get promoted just by working the hardest. Courtesy of this board, I think, about 10 years ago. Making a conscious effort to endear myself to colleagues and supervisors, instead of just grinding away alone in my office 15 hours a day, changed the entire trajectory of my career.

      Life: You CAN have it all, but just not at the same time. In one season of life, it was career career career. I dressed in kick ass power suits and was at the top of my field. It was awesome. Now I’m in my late forties, in a slower-paced but still stimulating job that offers enough work life balance to invest in kids, puppy, marriage, etc. It is also awesome.

    • Anonymous

      Beware of people who repeat mantras and discourage you from thinking for yourself.

    • CPA Lady

      – Don’t mistake nostalgia for regret (this board)
      – You have to do what is best for yourself and your career, without guilt (one of the bosses at my internship when he found out that I was going to have to back out of my second summer of the internship at the last minute in order to take a full time job)
      – It’s not “cheating” to maintain a professional network, it’s what everyone does, and it’s a great way to get future jobs (an accounting professor who launched me into my career)

      • oil in houston

        ‘don’t mistake nostalgia for regret’ OMG, this resonated so hard with me, I think I needed to hera that today, thank you

      • Monday

        This rhymes and is repeated often, but it never made sense to me. Both complaining (speaking up about problems?) and explaining have been important at various times in my work life.

    • Anon

      Not really advice but a quote that has stuck with me: “When you’re hell, keep going.” Winston Churchill.

    • Formerly Lilly

      Nobody wants your excuses. If you screw up, fix it and apologize. Nobody cares why, only that you caught it, fixed it, and wont let it happen again. Courtesy of an engineer when I was an engineering student out on a co-op assignment after my first (and only) year in that field of study.

      • MechanicalKeyboard

        Interesting that an engineer gave you that advice since finding the “why” behind problems, and learning how to avoid them, is such a huge aspect of the profession.

      • Anon

        Yeah. Excuses all the time are one thing. “Excuses” in the sense that you figured out why something happened so you can make sure it doesn’t happen again is important to me.

        So, “sorry I missed your email” is sufficient, I don’t need a diatribe about how busy you were and you had a sinus infection so you weren’t on top of your game. No excuse needed there.

        But, sorry I didn’t calendar your hearing, it won’t happen again needs to be dissected more. Were you not copied by the court? Did it come snail mail and reception forgot to give it to you? Did you calendar it on the wrong day? If so, what are we doing to prevent that from happening again. Telling me reception never gave you the snail mail is not an excuse. It is finding where something in the process broke down so that we can fix it.

    • ThirdJen

      Never take a new job unless it gets you either 50% more of what you like, or 50% less of what you hate.

      • Anon

        I always say that if you don’t wonder whether you made a huge mistake for the first six months of your new job, you probably didn’t make a big enough change.

        • Anon

          I think I needed to hear this. I’m starting a new job soon, and a so worried I made a mistake. It’ll be more work, more responsibility, and the same pay. And it’s a move back to litigation, which I think I want but who knows. I think I’ll be questioning my choice over the coming month

        • Anonymous

          I don’t agree with that. There’s a difference between “wow, this is a challenge, it’s going to take me time to get up to speed but I feel great about it” and “I made a huge mistake.”

        • Anon

          Hahaha my best experiences at jobs started out great! Firehose, but great. Once however I did feel I had made a huge mistake right as I started. It turned out I had made a huge mistake.

    • Vicky Austin

      You can’t steer a parked car.

      Just start. If it isn’t right, you can fix it once you’re moving.

    • Anon

      A nap (or a good night’s rest) makes everything look better. As I get older, it’s shocking how poorly I perform on poor sleep! Take 15 minutes or a night – many things can wait and will look better in the morning.

    • Anonymous

      You are your own best advocate. Put differently—no one cares as much about your life, career, etc as you do—do good for yourself!

    • anon

      Done is better than perfect.

      You are in charge of your professional career. Do not mistake liking your boss/colleagues for an organization being loyal to you.

      • Anonymous

        “Done is better than perfect” reminds me of a good one I heard recently: “If it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing poorly.”

        • Anon

          Haha yes, SA is quite wise but I don’t think she came up with that all on her own.

      • Senior Attorney

        Hilarious. Would you believe I was today years old when I realized I’ve been quoting Robert Frost this whole time?

        Also: Did you know you can sing “Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening” to the tune of “Hernando’s Hideaway?”

        • Anonymous

          I thought I was the only person who still knew the tune of Hernando’s Hideaway!

      • Ribena

        Or the Michael Rosen version: can’t go over it, can’t go under it, can’t go around it, we’ll have to go through it.

    • Senior Attorney

      “It doesn’t matter how you got into trouble — what matters is how you get out of trouble.” I first heard that from my dad, in the context of making mistakes as a carpenter/contractor. Turns out it applies with even more force in the practice of law and, you know, life.

    • Anon

      I took an intro to psych class to fulfill a requirement my sophomore year of college and the professor told us in the last class that we should never start smoking and never turn down a job interview. Pretty solid advice.

    • anon

      Most people are neither for you nor against you; they are thinking about themselves. No matter how hard you try to please, some people in this world are not going to love you, which at first seems troubling but is quite relaxing and freeing once you accept it.

      There are some things you can’t learn from others. You have to pass through the fire. — Norman Douglas

    • Anonymous

      Don’t take criticism from anyone who you wouldn’t go to for advice.

  6. Anon

    Is there a Couch-to-5K equivalent for track & field type running (shorter distances)? I used to do sports like field hockey and tennis where there was a lot of running, but fast running for short distances. I like hiking, but hate distance running (after really trying to like it when gyms closed). I can’t find an adult hockey or lacrosse league and even scheduling tennis is hard now that people are going back to offices and it is so darn hot outside.

    • anon

      my adult field hockey league is closed for the second summer in a row, which is such a bummer!

      Not a training program and not very fun, but there’s always the beep test. We tested that in college (I rowed… land speed did not matter!) but I always resolved that one year I was going to beat it. I have yet to do that.

      Alternatively, you could do C25k but sprint/walk instead. Or, look up timing suggestions for fartlek runs but do them as sprint/walk rather than run/jog.

      • Anon

        Have you considered reffing for club or school field hockey? One of my adult hockey playing friends transitioned into being a ref and is loving it.

        • Anon at 9:21

          I think it’d be a ton of fun, but I can’t leave work early enough to make it work! Lots of HS games are 3pm ish and that’s just too early for me to leave work + get to the game.

          I have one friend who reffed for a few yeas and another friend who coached one year. They both loved it, but ended up stopping because it was too hard to swing with work.

    • DC pandas

      -40 yard dash programs for speed
      -Sprint the length of the track, jog or walk the widths to recover. Repeat.
      -Fartlek style running, where you intersperse walking, jogging, running, and sprinting
      -400m prep from TrackStar USA is good but old-school

      Alternatively, have a family member time different distances on the track. See which distance you prefer most, and look up training plans to improve speed at that race/distance.

    • anon

      when I played field hockey, I would train over the summer by doing a few miles on the track of sprint the straightaways and walk the curves.

    • Quail

      Maybe doing HIIT running workouts (like the ones on Peleton outdoor) but doing them on a track rather than on the road would work?

      One thing I never appreciated about being a public high school athlete was having someone to tell me how to work out, for basically free, after school at school, every day! Now that seems like an incredible luxury.

  7. Anon

    I’m doing a pre-move/post-pandemic closet cleanout, and could use advice on how to differentiate between classic vs. dated clothing. I have many items that are more than a few years old, but are still in very good condition and fit well. How do I know if they read as “out of style” or dated? Should I just donate anything that I’ve owned for a certain number of years? If so, what’s a reasonable expiration age–5 years? 10 years?

    • Anon

      I just donated several suits to my university’s career clothing closet. They are perfectly appropriate to wear now, but I the time I need to wear them again, will be dated. Better someone else gets a little wear out of them before that point.
      tl;dr: I’m leaning more toward “donate” than “save” for these pieces right now.

      • Anon

        Edit to add… I don’t go by age of the garment. I go by condition and if I wear it (or want to wear it, given the right occasion). I have clothes in my rotation that are older than some of my staff.

    • Anonymous

      No, no, no. Clothes do not have expiration dates. That is a consumerist mindset. If you like your clothes, keep them. If you don’t or they don’t fit, get new ones.

    • Cat

      I did a clean out recently and didn’t go by age of garment, but by how long it had been since I last wore it.
      1. If I could recall wearing it in 2019 or later, it stayed.
      2. If the answer to (1) was no, I tried it on. Usually there’s a reason I hadn’t worn it recently – wrong size, too short (this happened to a lot of the dresses I bought a decade ago – hems have dropped), feels dated or frumpy when I put it on, uncomfortable, etc.

      I was pleasantly surprised by a few in category (2) and kept them, but for the most part, taking a hard look with the garment *on* revealed it was time to go.

    • Anon

      Are you still wearing them? That’s how I make decisions. If I haven’t worn them in a couple of years (we will not count the pandemic) then I’m not going to wear them and out they go. I make exceptions for evening/special occasion wear, but even then, if a special occasion has occurred and I didn’t choose that item for it, then I probably don’t need it.

  8. Anon

    Please solve a little debate my husband and I are having.

    If in response to, “How was your day?”, someone said, “I spent the day picking up glass,” would you think:

    A) A window shattered at the office or something similar

    B) Plans for the day were “blown up” and they had to spend the day picking up the pieces…er, sherds of broken glass…aka, rearranging the day to accommodate the unexpected event

    I’ve literally never, ever heard B before in my life and my husband’s looking at me like I have two heads. He insists it’s a common expression. Have you all heard it before?

    • Anonymous

      B. Obviously he did not spend a full day collecting small pieces of glass. You may not have heard the express before but it’s obviously a metaphor and you’re being annoyingly obtuse.

      • Anon

        Hard disagree. I have never heard this before, and I would have assumed something literally happened with broken glass. (Now, I might have assumed that he was exaggerating that it took all day, but I would have assumed that the defining incident of the day dealt with literally broken glass.)

        • Anon.

          +1. And given that broken glass scatters easily I wouldn’t even think “all day” was hyperbole. As in, I broke a glass at 8:00 AM and was still occasionally finding pieces on the floor that afternoon that hadn’t been discovered in the initial clean up.

          Putting out fires is the idiom I would have used.

      • Anone

        No need to be rude. Sometimes I search the archives and wow, people on this board were way nicer in the past. Not sure why things changed, but it sure would be more pleasant if people were polite to each other. (And I’ve never heard the expression either)

      • Anon

        What? No! I’ve worked in places where “putting out fires” involved an actual hose. I would totally assume a window or something broke spectacularly.

      • Elderlyunicorn

        The issue is not that she doesn’t understand the metaphor, the issue is that her husband thinks it’s a common expression and that she’s strange for not having heard it before, and she’s polling a reasonably diverse, easily accessible audience (the readers here) to better understand if this is a common expression, if it’s a regional thing, or if her husband is the strange one.

      • Anon

        Any chance you want to take that back after an entire thread saying they’ve never heard that before? Or are you just being annoyingly obtuse?

      • Anon

        +1 I’ve never heard this phrase in my life but it’s pretty obvious it’s not literal.

    • Vicky Austin

      Never heard it. In the same situation I probably would have said “putting out fires.”

      • anonymous

        Yeah, I hear “putting out fires” a lot and have never heard “picking up glass.” That said, my immediate reaction might be that a car got broken into or a giant sheet of glass fell (does my SO work at a window or mirror warehouse?), but then after a few seconds I’d probably assume it was a metaphor.

    • Anonymous

      Never heard it in my life. He might be thinking of “putting out fires,” which is common usage where I live.

    • Anonymous

      A. But this sounds like a regional idiom and I tend to take things a little too literally sometimes and I work in construction so when you say picking up glass, I’d think some contractor somehow dropped or hit a window pane or something…

    • Anonymous

      I’ve never heard this expression before. If someone said it to me, I would probably be confused at first and then realize it was probably a metaphor.

    • HSAL

      Never heard B in my life. Midwest. Where is your husband from? I’m guessing regional.

    • Anon

      Never heard it but I also had never heard “fire drill” until working in a law firm. I thought we were literally going to have a fire drill. I didn’t realize it meant we had an emergency filing.

    • Anon

      So, I would have thought: C) they drove to a glass shop and picked up large panes of glass for, who knows, windows, table tops, I don’t know. I would have asked how the drive was.

      It’s also not an expression I e heard, and think it’s weird.

      • MagicUnicorn

        I’m in this boat. Never heard of B, and would be unsure without more context what glass was being picked up.

        The dialogue in my head would include: shards? Did he mean glassES…if so, the drinking ones or the eye ones? Or is it something glass for work? Does he mean vases?

        I also wonder if there is a regional idiom that the guy has butchered here and that is contributing to the confusion (“sweeping up broken glass” or “picking out shards of glass” or something like that would probably be more meaningful if I heard it used, although I have still never heard of them used in the “putting out fires” or “herding cats” and might still think it was literal).

    • Cat

      Never heard it – east coast but with lots of midwestern acquaintances. Putting out fires, cleaning up messes, picking up the pieces, dealing with fire drills, etc are all very common, but never heard that one!

    • editor

      I’ve never heard it, and I’m old, a wide reader, and in the language business.

    • Patricia Gardiner

      I would think A. I have never heard B, and still don’t think it’s a good metaphor after hearing the explanation. Have lived in the Midwest, Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, and South.

    • Anonymous

      I would have assumed it was someone wanting to tell me a dramatic story and would have asked what broke. (For what it’s worth,I’m late 40s, a former English major, and work in a communications field, so I’m part of that weird subset out there who is pretty well read in a bunch of genres now and loves a good idiom–but I’ve never encountered this one.)

    • Senior Attorney

      Never heard B, am Very Old, well traveled, and well read.

      That said, I kind of like it.

  9. Amazon vs Small Business

    There’s been some discussion on (terrible) Amazon recently, so I wanted to float this question to the group.

    I recently had some packages stollen from inside my (non-doorman) building lobby: 2 from Amazon (entire package gone after photo confirmation it was delivered) and 2 from “Small Company” (contents of boxes stollen, but empty boxes left behind).

    I called Amazon and they immediately offered to re-ship the missing items. I contacted “small company” and they told me since the package was confirmed delivered by FexEx they could not help.

    Thoughts? Should “small company” have insurance and offer a replacement in this case? I’m torn on my opinion, but unfortunately it does dissuade me from ordering from small companies in the future. Note: small company’s products are also available on Amazon, slightly cheaper, with free shipping (I paid a premium and for shipping to order directly from “small company”).

    • Anon

      I would just report it to my credit card, and they would fully reimburse it. Yes, I agree that’s bad customer service for the small shop. But I’ve had bad customer service experiences with large multinational retailers and small shops. It varies depending on the companies priorities, not on the size of the store

      • Curious

        +1 this is what I do. Credit card companies are pretty good about this sort of things if they’re not frequent occurrences. They literally returned the fees for our first wedding venue when the vendor was exposed as hopelessly in over their head (at best) and a scam artist (at worst) and fled the state.

    • Anon

      I personally am surprised that Amazon takes the hit for stolen packages. I personally think that’s on the receiver. If you can’t be home to get your packages, send them to work. If you can’t do that, send them to an Amazon locker or a UPS store or get another commercial box somewhere. You can also get a lock box for your packages at your porch but I don’t know how those actually work.

    • Anonymous

      Why is it small companies fault you don’t have a safe location for package delivery?

      • anon

        +1 I can’t comprehend how this is the company’s fault. You gave them the address, they delivered it as promised. They didn’t do anything wrong! Sure it’s nice when a company replaces something that was stolen, but I do not believe any company has an obligation to do so. I

      • Anon

        Exactly. What if someone stole it from you immeditely after you got the package? Still the companies fault? Once they delivered to the location you specified, their responsibility ends.

      • Anon

        agree it’s not their fault, but honestly I don’t know anyone who has a safe package place. I live downtown in a very safe, very yuppie neighborhood and packages are stolen all the time.I used to live in a building with a front desk that handled all packages, still didn’t get all of mine. My parents live in a super safe suburb where there literally has’t been a single crime in the 20 years they’ve lived there – and they’ve had packages stolen. I had a package delivered to the UPS or FedEx drop location at my local Walgreens. I went to retrieve it after getting the email that it was ready and they couldn’t find it.

        • anon

          I live in a place where you can leave your garage open all night long and nothing walks away – I am an idiot and have done it multiple times. My expensive bike, my cheap bike, and all of my law equipment have stayed put. It’s amazing and obviously would completely be my fault if it got stolen, but these places exist.

          I also have a door on the address side of my house that is not my actual front door and new delivery people will sometimes leave a package there. I never use the door and so occaisionally, a package will sit out there for days at a time and they have never walked off.

          • anon

            To add, when I lived in a non-package safe place (you couldn’t leave ANYTHING on your porch), I had packages shipped to my office or held for me to pick up. I’ve always managed to find a solution to this problem. Friends of mine in the not safe neighborhood who didn’t have these options had their packages shipped to a neighborhood business who was happy to keep them safe while my friends were working. These are the reasons I can’t fault companies for this problem.

          • Anon

            Anon at 12:08 here. I grew up in an area where no one closes their garages or locks their cars and many people don’t lock their houses. My parents have still had packages stolen off their front porch!

      • Senior Attorney

        Also I have friends who own small companies and am consistently shocked and appalled at the way customers try to take advantage of them including, but not limited to, claiming packages are not received.

        I feel like if you need secure package delivery you need to have a P.O. Box or a box at the UPS Store or similar.

        • Anonymous

          Our packages are frequently delivered to the house next door, the house across the street, or a certain house on the next block, then marked as delivered. Fortunately our neighbors are nice about it and will usually bring the packages over, but if we can’t track down a package we have to contact the merchant. It’s the carrier’s problem to deal with, but only the sender can report a missing package, not the addressee.

    • Anonymous

      If this small inconvenience is more important to you than deciding not to support Amazon’s horrendous labour practices, there is nothing anyone here can say that will change your mind. You want to be told that this makes your decision to use Amazon less gross. It does not. Use Amazon if you want but own that doing so means you do not care about the human or environmental cost. Own your choices.

      Amazon is awful. Both for the environment and people. Way more awful than Walmart/target etc.

      • Anon

        Go be perfect somewhere else. Having packages stolen is not a small inconvenience for most of us.

        • anon

          +1

          Obviously I hate Amazon and everything they stand for and am doing my best to quit them, but stolen packages = lost $$ and that’s a hardship most of us

          • Anonymous

            Stolen packages = lost money but Amazon = lost lives so for most people lives> money.

          • Come on

            This is ridiculous. Amazon isn’t killing anyone. I will continue ordering from Amazon for the convenience and customer support. Same with anyone I talk to.

          • anon

            Stolen packages are not the problem of the shipper though. If you have issues with stolen packages, that’s another argument to stop buying things online.

    • anonshmanon

      It’s a matter of who bears the cost to make up for the theft. I do not think that Amazon relies on insurance, but the combination of squeezing vendors, workers and the delivery business with their unthinkably large revenue allows them to swallow these losses in a different way than a small company can.
      I don’t think you are really asking the right question when debating to what extent companies should be expected to cover what sounds like regular theft losses. Minimizing the theft is the answer here, which may mean minimizing how often you order online or finding a more secure means of delivering.

      • lifer

        +1

        I would report it to your building and to the police. When this happened to me, I also sent an email out to my building/neighbors to let them know it was happening and that I reported it to the police.
        Your building should have cameras on the area where packages are kept and if they don’t, push management to get them. They actually are not very expensive at all.

        I don’t think the stores should be responsible for thefts that actually occur within your building when they actually delivered your items. Actually, I am pretty startled you think this is their responsibility, and disappointed you would penalize the small company for this.

        When this was happening in my building, I started sending my packages to a relative’s house nearby. Also, the stealing stopped not long after. I suspect a neighbor in the building was stealing, and once people started talking about it / police notified they got scared off and stopped. Cameras help the most.

        • anon

          unfortunately, police most places have way bigger fish to fry. I don’t think they even take reports for stolen packages in my area…

          Your building management should 100% be on this, though.

          • lifer

            Of course police do nothing. But it can be helpful for insurance purposes (some credit cards will reimburse for theft) and to kick your landlord into action and to scare the thief a bit if they are in your building by telling them. You would be shocked how many people think that “minor” theft is no big deal.

    • anon

      I’m sorry, this stinks.

      I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a company to cover losses after a confirmed delivery. They can’t control how long you leave something before picking up or crime in the area, and securing the items is within the recipient’s control (arranging to have the package picked up from delivery location right away or arranging delivery to a safer place).

      I think Amazon agreeing to reship is something that Amazon can do because it’s giant. It may be doing so to win business over smaller businesses. No guarantee that it’ll keep up this practice once it squashes the competition in this market.

      • Anon

        +1 to the last sentence. Monopolistic behavior. And why we need vigorous antitrust enforcement.

    • Anonymous

      Your problem isn’t with the small company, your problem is the security where you live. Of course the sender shouldn’t replace an item because you lost it after it was confirmed delivered.

      • anon

        Honest question – who here has a secure place to receive packages and what is it?

        (not saying that it’s the business’ responsibility to replace; Im just curious what most people do with packages)

        • Anon

          Pre-pandemic they were delivered to my office. I have never had a problem with a package arriving on the weekend. During the pandemic, my dogs announced the arrival of Amazon so the packages were picked up quickly. If I had to work out of the home and couldn’t have my packages delivered to work, I’d probably use one of those porch lock box things.

        • anon

          These are the options I and my neighbors have used:
          – office
          – held by shipping company
          – neighborhood business
          – friends’ house in “safer” area
          – friend’s house who works from home
          – Amazon locker

        • anonshmanon

          tbh, that is one of the reasons why I don’t order online that much. I get maybe a package a month, and I look out for it until it is delivered (working from home). Delivery people in my ‘hood usually leave the package outside the gate without notification, package thieves make the rounds, and so it’s just a certain risk of theft that comes with ordering online.

          • Anon

            You can’t have things delivered by UPS or FedEx to post office boxes and most places do not ship with USPS.

        • Anonymous

          I don’t live in the US, but my packages are either:

          – sent to mailbox (locked box) in apartment building hallway, unsigned
          – sent to delivery service access point (UPS, DHL and others) all within 5 minutes walk from home, or I can get a package sent to a locker or access point of my choice near work, normally a text message to my phone with a pick-up code or number, proof of ID
          – sent to local post office or post office community locker (5-10 min. walk), pick-up code or number, or proof of ID depending on whether signed/unsigned
          – delivered at building’s outer door (curbside?) by major delivery service (like DHL, UPS, FedEx etc) or postal service, signed (so rerouted to access point if I’m not there)
          – delivered at apartment door by messenger style delivery service, smaller items from local stores – can be signed or unsigned depending on what I prefer
          – delivered on doormat overnight, unsigned.

          The last one, delivered on doormat, is only one that’s not secure in that anybody with access to the hallway could take the package – have never happened so far.

    • Monte

      This is entirely on the thief/you, not the small business. You know the products were delivered because you have the empty boxes. Expecting a small business, or any business, to reimburse you because of the theft is awful, particularly if you try to use this as a justification to pivot to Amazon.

    • Anon

      I’m honestly shocked by these answers. I’ve never had a company object to refunding or resending a package if I didn’t get it. It doesn’t happen often, and has frequently been because the delivery company marked it delivered days before it arrived (in which cause I returned the item to the company), but even if they believe it was stolen, they replace it.

      Any company that does any volume of shipping has standard insurance for this. That is a cost of doing business to them. If they don’t want that risk, they should require a signature for delivery. (Although UPS and FedEx aren’t waiting for signatures even when required in my area, but in that case the loss of the item is on them,)

      • anon

        Same. I don’t think they’re required to replace it, but every time I’ve asked for one I’ve gotten one.

    • Anonymous

      You should have insurance! This isn’t a “them” problem; it’s a you problem.

    • Anon

      No, this is on you not the seller. It sucks, it’s happened to me, but it’s because of where I live not anything the merchant did.

  10. Anon

    The other day we were talking about workplace norms and someone said that law firms sound like a time capsule from the 50s or something like that. It was in response to me saying that when I email my boss he will at times ask why I didn’t just come downstairs and drop by…

    Anyway, an attorney in my local bar group just put out a request looking for a legal secretary. She must be a fast typist and experienced with taking and transcribing dictation. Someone sent back a joke like “what’s a Dictaphone? Is it the same thing as an 8 track?” This person didn’t catch the joke, explained what a Dictaphone is and then added how helpful it is for attorneys that “do not know how to type.” Bless his heart.

    • anon

      Not knowing how to type seems wild but there are so many older lawyers out there who can’t type quickly. Dictation is rapidly going by the wayside too, but I still know a few in their 60s and up who dictate sometimes. The range of tech savviness in law firms is vast. I work with partners in their 70s who can’t/won’t print. Most younger attorneys (even in their 60s and 50s) are far better. Anyways, one thing lawyers outside of law firms don’t often consider is the way client demands affect technology use. Clients don’t pay for lawyers to fiddle with technology (whether that means scanning documents, typing (that is, if you type 20 words a minute), formatting documents, tables of authority, adding addresses and letter head, proof reading, organizing files in your online system, electronic filing, compiling documents, making powerpoints pretty). You are expected to outsource that type of work to your secretary or paralegal. Your secretary and paralegal’s skills in these areas likely far outpace yours (even if you’re a younger attorney– they do not teach you how to e-file or use your firm’s fickle scanner to scan 1,000 page files efficiently in law school, my secretary can do things to documents 10x faster than I can). They continue to get these tasks, you continue to read/write/analyze. You can’t bill a client for messing around and try to get the letter head just right, so you either don’t practice those skills or you’re adding extra unbillable time to your already packed day.

      • Anon

        True. I also know younger attorneys that travel a lot (by car) and will dictate notes to the file while they are driving. I’m not sure if they use voice to text software though or if someone actually transcribes it for them.

      • Anonymous

        I am a social scientist. None of my colleagues over the age of 60 knows how to type. They all hunt and peck with two fingers. It is painful to watch. I do not know how they ever get anything written, because they do not use voice recognition and do not have secretaries to take dictation.

      • Anon

        I fully get this, but there are super basic technology skills that attorneys must master practicing in this century. Dictation versus typing and email namely (when I worked in firm there were attorneys that still had secretaries print out emails and respond for partner by retyping their handwritten response). If you’re 65 and still practicing that means computers have been used in the workplace for 30 yrs – that’s not technology moving fast that’s intentionall failure to change.
        But I do agree that there are many skills that belong with secretarial and paralegal staff, but you should be able to do the basic functions that keep your job running in case secretary is out – not knowing how to save a file to the 15 yr old doc management system, there is no excuse at all.

        • Anonymous

          Yes to “know how to do the basics in case the secretary is out.” Do not be the attorney trying to figure out how to efile or scan something late at night because the secretary has gone home and the filing/service deadline is midnight.

        • Nona

          Hard disagree and this is from someone who can and does do this myself. These are nots skills that attorneys “must master”. A partner with a big enough book of business can practice law brilliantly and pay someone else to take dictation, handle emails, save documents to the system. The only excuse they need is that they prefer it that way and are willing and able to pay for it.

          At my firm most attorney do a lot themselves (although large print jobs, scanning, formatting, TOA/TOC, etc. are definitely for staff; our clients are not paying our rates for that). But we have a couple of partners who have dedicated secretaries who handle it for them. And at least one of them (mid-50s) regularly has his secretary print his emails because he travels a lot and can go through them in hard copy without needing his laptop or an internet connection. And I am not sure she takes dictation in the classic sense but he will definitely have her come in and fire off a string of letters where he gives her the substantive paragraphs and tells her to fill in the rest. (He also dictates his opening and closing; he says he thinks better out loud and on his feet.)

          Of course his secretary reportedly makes as much as we pay junior associates and he says he will retire when she does so this is not a regular thing!

      • Anon

        I worked for an executive who would have her secretary (yes the exec was female) print her emails several times a day and leave them on her desk. The exec would hand write responses, and the secretary would type them and send them. It seemed incredibly archaic to me of course, but she was super efficient at her job! Maybe because everyone figured out it was a waste of time to send her a “hey, quick question” email!

        • anonypotamus

          Except for the fact that your executive is female, I would swear you are talking about my boss who literally did the same thing until a few years ago, when he got an iPad and figured out how to send emails from it. (Still handwrites out any pleadings or other documents haha).

    • No Problem

      Also amazing because there is dictation software that could be installed for the attorneys that “do not know how to type” so they can dictate to themselves. Sure, hire a legal secretary to clean it up, format it, etc. but there’s no reason in today’s world for anybody to take anyone else’s dictation.

      • Anon

        I’ve tried some of the dictation software. It’s so bad, especially for legal terms, that dictation would probably be faster for the secretary.

    • Anon

      Yes, we have a “partner emeritus” who just turned 80 who still comes into the office every day and is quaintly old fashioned. God bless his assistant – she prints all his emails for him, he marks them up, she types the response and/or scans back hard copies with corrections. I mean, he wrote the law that our field is centered around and his mind is still sharp, so he’s a great resource, but his really is an office you need to swing by rather than email!

      • HW

        As someone is who is sick of sitting in front of my computer screen all day, this sounds great to me. Can someone start printing my emails for me?

    • Senior Attorney

      Haha when I started practicing I used a dictaphone (my lovely secretary patiently taught me that yes, I had to dictate the punctuation and everything), and there were still old partners whose secretaries took dictation with pencil and paper using shorthand!

      • Beaglelover

        Yes, me too! And that training has proved invaluable for voice to text dictation. I use that constantly for my time entries, it’s a super efficient use of my time.

    • Anonymous

      So, my boss (equity partner at a big law firm), who is 45, only knows how to type with his two index fingers and looking at the screen. It takes forever. He doesn’t know how to print things to PDF or add signature pages to a pdf file, so he will print out an entire contract, take the separately executed signature pages, and then put it all in the Printer’s scan feed tray (I actually don’t know the technical name for that) and make a scan. The resulting contract looks soooo unprofessional and really bothers me, but he does not care.

      Actually, a very good friend of mine who is 38, completely proficient in technology, dictates briefs/motions all the time to his admin. Part of this is that he is a workers comp defense attorney and is on the road driving ALL the time (pre COVID), so it made more sense to “use” the hours in the car to dictate the draft of a brief than just to drive. He then reviews, edits, and finalizes the documents himself, but the first draft is dictated.

    • Walnut

      I spent a half hour explaining the utility of a ten key calculator to my husband who looked at me like I had lost my ever loving mind. Some habits die hard.

      Also, you can take my ten key out of my cold, dead hands.

    • Jules

      I’m 61, so I guess I’m an old here, but reasonably tech-savvy, and I can type faster than my secretary. However, I do still use a dictaphone (electronic, so I can email recordings to her) because it is much faster than me typing out myself something like a lengthy factual statement in a brief. My secretary also formats and does some boilerplate sections on letters, briefs and other pleadings, and does most of my scanning and the like – but I can do those things with no problem. (Unlike the big-firm attorney I went up against in a Zoom hearing recently – twice, he completely turned off the system in their fancy conference room and needed help to log back in; then, when the hearing went past five and his secretary and tech support were gone, he was incapable of scanning and sending a last-minute exhibit.)

  11. Cb

    Talk me through the logistics of working away from home 2-3 days a week. For context, academic job, husband and kiddo are settled in their work/school, we just bought a house, it’s not a city I’d want to live in long-term. 20 minute flight (across a body of water so not drive or trainable), but a decent commute to the airport. It would likely only require me on site 20-25 weeks a year (academic term times). I wouldn’t normally consider it but it’s the only job in my specific subfield posted this year and I was very nicely invited to apply. I’m sure it’ll be incredibly competitive so I shouldn’t bother worrying about logistics, but I just need to get them straight in my head before writing a very enthusiastic cover letter.

    • Anon

      Sounds extremely difficult and expensive – you’d have to rent a room in the other city, is it feasible for your spouse to do 100% of drop-off, pickup, and kid morning and nights every week for 3 days? I couldn’t swing that with my current job. If not, may need an au pair if you have some and can afford it. And what’s the long-term plan — hope eventually a spot opens up in your city or do this forever?

      • Anon

        If you’re not confident your spouse can handle your child three days a week, should you really be married to someone that incompetent?

        • No Face

          I don’t think it is a competence issue, but a job requirements issue. I could not be solely responsible for my kids for 3 days a week (drop off, pickup, activities), every single week because I have court hearings, meetings, conferences calls, billable hour requirements, etc. If one spouse is out of town during the week, then the other parent needs to stay at home, work part time, OR they need a nanny.

          Seems like Cb’s situation could work though.

        • Anon

          Come on. She means completely solo parent. Could you keep your job coming in late and/or leaving early 3 days/week indefinitely? I would have to be late or leave early in order to work my expected hours and do both daycare drop off and pick up. Not possible for most people.

        • AZCPA

          I don’t think it’s about competence here. More about spouse having a work schedule or sufficient flexibility to do all of it.

          • Anon

            I posted below about my bicoastal work life. We hired a babysitter 4 mornings a week who basically got my kids up and dressed for school, then took them to school. My husband worked early hours and left for work when she arrived. He did the pickup to the extent my kids didn’t just walk home from school, which they started doing in middle school.

            But that was always his schedule – he always wanted to work on the early side for commute reasons.

        • Anon

          Not about competence, about the realities of work schedules. As I said in my comment, I could not do that in my current job. That is because I have many meetings and evening obligations that cross through pickup and kid bed time. I can manage that by taking turns with my partner but could not be unavailable starting at 430pm three days a week forever.

        • MechanicalKeyboard

          I agree with this sentiment to an extent. There are literally millions of single parents in the world that figure it all out without au pairs or nannies.

        • Anon

          It’s not about competence and it’s not about sexism. When my son was small, I could not have taken on 100% of childcare three days a week without it seriously impacting my job and my career. When my son was in daycare and early preschool, husband did the drop-off and I did the pick-up, generally. However, I had an unpredictable schedule, as did my husband, and we did a lot of midday texting about “got a late call, can you pick him up” or “I can’t take him in tomorrow, I have a 7 a.m. meeting.” It was about equal; not always him or me changing things. We also did a lot of juggling when my son was sick and needed to stay home – it can’t always be one person on the hook to stay with the sick kid.

          I also know that had I been the one who had to do three days a week of solo parenting, plus my job, plus taking care of the house, the yard, and the pets, I would have burned out fast. It would have made me resentful as hell. If it was a short-term thing – like six months or a year – I maybe could have done that. Indefinitely? No way.

          I didn’t comment on the OP’s post this morning because my only thought was “that sounds exhausting for her and unfair for her partner;” I have no direct experience with a situation like that because I have never done it (and likely would never have made that choice myself or agreed to my husband making that choice for himself). I see other people had similar reactions. I think you could have a rockstar spouse/partner, who contributes a ton and is eminently capable of managing things, and still have a situation like the OP is describing be painful, frustrating and damaging to the relationship. I wouldn’t do it, myself.

      • Cb

        Yes, plan would be to do it for a few years and make a sideways move to somewhere in area. Which wouldn’t be unheard of, you often have to leave your institution to come back in academia. It wouldn’t be a massive problem on the childcare front, my husband’s job is fairly flexible and we have local pals to alternate school pick up and drop offs.

        • Anon

          Ok that’s important. I guess one way to think about it is what happens if you try it and it’s a total disaster and need to make a change in a year? Could you easily get back to your current institution? It is it better to stay out and wait for a spot to open up elsewhere locally?

    • Anon

      You can’t turn down a job you don’t apply for. Only you know if these logistics will work for you and your family. It would be disruptive for me to travel that frequently, but would be easier if my husband did, just because of how my energy is sapped by such logistics and he would be a whiz with prepping in advance. So apply and then figure out logistics while you wait for them to respond.

    • Anon

      Logistically would be complicated but you’d get used to it fast. I don’t think it’s much different than consultants that travel regularly that have children. You can make it work. But you’d likely have to rent small apartment and factor in the cost of that plus essentially maintaining a second household (furniture, utilities, rent, groceries) and weekly flights. Unless your job is covering those costs, it doesn’t seem worth it to me.

      • ex-deloitte

        It seems very similar to a consulting schedule, so I think that in terms of logistics and parent travel its fine. The thing is in consulting your job pays for your flight and hotel/small apartment, which I’m not sure would be the case here.

    • anon

      I don’t do it, but I know quite a few couples who do (some with young kids, some without). It’s obviously not ideal, but often times there isn’t a great alternative. I don’t have any advice, as I’m not particularly close with those who do it but just that it can (and often is!) done.

    • Notinstafamous

      Totally doable without kids, haven’t done it with kids so can’t speak to that side of things. We’ve done it for years in a variety of spots – NYC/MTL, Vancouver/Victoria, Toronto/Boston. I say apply and see what happens!!

      Things to consider:

      (a) timelines – if this goes on forever and you get tenure there are you ok with that?

      (B) accommodations – we’ve often had work pay for an executive suite in city B, but if not getting a furnished sublet or roommates has worked just fine for us and it’s a minimal expense. We actually worked out a deal with a student where we rented out the unit on AirBnB the weeks/weekends I wasn’t there, the student lived in the apartment next door and managed the logistics, we split the proceeds and everyone got their rent covered, it was great for the 3 years it lasted but location dependent.

      (C) flight cost – can you get “commuter” ticket bundles? Does the money actually make sense when all of this is taken into account? Does time time to travel work? Will there be weather glitches regularly?

      (D) feelings & family logistics – will you / family be sad if you’re away a lot? Is that ok? I have no idea about childcare but I guess whatever you normally do during those weeks would have to be outsourced to your partner or to someone you pay. If you hate it, can you get your current job back or a job in the city where you just bought a house?

    • Anonymous

      Your son is only 4 right? If I were your husband, I would beg you not to do this. My husband took an academic job in another city (we’re in Brooklyn and this was in Hartford) for a year, before we had a kid, and even then it was really draining for him. That was partly because driving in this area is hellish, and it sounds like he was doing a longer drive than you are talking about, but going back and forth was tiring and lonely. And he had to rent and furnish an apartment + pay commuting costs, so not cheap either. Also, would you need a car there? How would you get around?

      • Cb

        Yep, he’s 4. UK term times are much shorter than in the US and I suspect on-site requirements will be lower post-pandemic. I suspect I could sublet a room from a PhD student/someone on fieldwork during term time, and definitely wouldn’t need a car (it’s a smallish, quite inexpensive city).
        It wouldn’t be my preferred choice but the job would be incredible, and right now, it’s likely a long commute somewhere in the UK (if I can even get a job) or leaving academia entirely. Academia is a total mess, designed for the young, unattached, and childless, sadly.

    • Anon

      I know someone in academia who did this but only because the university was a short drive or train trip away.

    • Anonymous

      I think you’d have to be insane to do this and if this is your only job option in your field you need to reconsider your field. You love your home and your family and your bicycle commute and your cozy little life. Do you really want to leave that 3 days a week half the year?

    • Anon

      I lived on one coast of the US and worked on the other coast for several years. I went in person 3 out of 4 weeks on average, thought toward the end my boss and I were trying (unsuccessfully) trying to get it down to 1 out of 4. I tended to fly Monday nights and come home Friday afternoons, so 3 1/2 days in the office for the weeks I was there.

      It was harder on me than it was on my family. My kids were elementary to middle school age and we just made it work. I was physically exhausted most of the time but I loved the job and it paid well – indeed it is finding my relatively early semi-retirement so in a sense I got the time back on the other end.

      I wouldn’t do it for anything other than an ideal job.

      My kids are great, young adults now, no resentments about it and they’re doing fine. My husband really really had to step up, which honestly was great for our relationship as co parents.

    • Blueberries

      I know parents in academia and academia adjacent who have done this, along with parents in other fields who travel this much or who work so much that to their children they effectively have this schedule.

      Apply! If it’s awful, you can not take the job or quit. But, it’s worth taking this opportunity to further your career.

    • OtherUKAcademic

      Hi Cb,

      We’ve exchanged comments here before but I’m usually a lurker. Also a UK academic in the same field but suspected different sub-field. Hopefully I can offer some really specific thoughts. I suspect you’ll get a lot of people thinking this sounds ridiculous, but I don’t think it is given the job market at the moment, the UKHE redundancies picture etc. Granted, it isn’t as bad as it is for history or archaeology at the moment, but it is pretty bad. This is VERY common in UKHE so if you don’t know anyone who does similar it is worth asking around at your current or this prospective institution.
      As an aside, if you’re not a member of the Women in Academia Support Network group (mostly on facebook but present on twitter) then you should join and ask opinions there. I think it is worth applying but here are a few snags to think about:
      I have a few colleagues who do 3 hours via car or train–a few in Scotland, some London/Manchester friends in both directions, a Nottingham/Manchester friend and a Warwick/Manchester friend for context. I’ve also met a few who commute via plane, although usually from the continent and I don’t think that’s the direction you’re going.

      Almost all of them who need to travel for more than an hour one way rent a room of some sort and stay overnight 1-2 days/week. I know you have a small child so that might not be feasible, but it often helps with the exhaustion and expense. It also helps if you want to network after research seminars etc. I do know one parent of a toddler who does this, although I believe she’s mostly stopped her overnight stays since having the child. The WIASN group I mentioned above is a really good place to find a room to rent if you go that route. If you do go this route it is worth trying to make either the day you arrive or the day you leave a Wednesday (or sandwich it in the middle) since meetings usually happen on Wednesday afternoons and those are the most likely to crop up last minute. Try to cluster teaching on Tuesdays and Thursdays if they give you the option–however, most Unis right now are worried about how they’re going to manage social distancing if it is a thing next year so they may be reluctant to make timetable promises.

      Cost is a particular issue for some–particularly because fares go up at short notice and frankly a lot more happens at short notice than you realize until you’re actually doing it I know two people who left otherwise good perm positions because they were losing money commuting. If you’ve been invited to apply (and if the job is the one I think it is) then you may be able to be very up front about negotiating specific days ‘in’ but that usually doesn’t help much with the ad hoc meetings. Some Universities explicitly stipulate a maximum travel distance but I don’t think this particular one is in a position to do that because of the job market in that city. There may be more wriggle room for virtual meetings than in the past now that we’ve all been teaching that way! That said, it is costly either way so do some calculations to make sure the pay will cover it. I suspect this is a permanent post, but if fixed term think about if this will give you enough breathing room to set you up for your next post. If you have no research allocation AND have to travel you may end up in a worse position at the end of your contract since the REF cycle will start to heat up again.

      One thing it may be worth asking about is the flexible working policy. They have a statutory obligation to make reasonable adjustments so you may be able to negotiate a 9.25 hour day in a four day week although most people say they end up working even more.

      GOOD LUCK!

      • Cb

        Oh my goodness, this is incredibly helpful! Thank you! You are probably right on the job. There is just nothing out there at the moment and I don’t think it’s going to get any better (although I don’t think we’ll run into the problem that history etc has with departments closing completely, my home department has record numbers for the past 2 years). I’ve been nosing around to see who got jobs recently and for “entry-level” lectureships, these folks are very experienced, quants-y, and often American. Not sure how an ECR is supposed to compete.
        I know it’s a long shot but I do think it’s helpful to go in confident with a sense that you could manage the logistics. I do keep looking at civil service research jobs but can’t quite convince myself to make the leap – I love being in the classroom, and still have 6 months left on my contract to try and cobble something together. I’d move for it, but my husband LOVES his civil service job and it’s not a city I’d want to spend the next 10-20 years in, especially if tensions there increase further. And the think tank sector in Scotland is just non-existent.

    • ArenKay

      I think if your husband is supportive, you should totally apply. Academia *is* such a total disaster right now, and CVs seem to have shorter lifespans than ever (as in, once you’ve been out for a few years, hiring committees will paper screen you out). This is doable, particularly with just one kid to manage, and it’s not a forever commitment. The two-body couples I’ve known who’ve struggled with this found it impossible during the infant years (which makes total sense).

    • ProfP

      Clearly not an ideal option, but unfortunately in academia your options are so limited that this may be a good idea for you career-wise (speaking as someone who had six years of insane moving around the world chasing positions until I got something permanent). Whether you and your husband can manage this arrangement, I can’t comment on. But I had a friend with four children at home who did a graduate program by being at her university three days a week and home Fri – Mon.

    • IL

      This is not that far off my work travel pre-COVID, except that work paid for lodging and it wasn’t always the same city. Honestly, it sounds easier considering you would be traveling to the same place every time! No kid, but I loved the break of being in a different place and having my evenings to decompress without my partner. It also meant I didn’t have to cook or clean at all those days, so I came home refreshed from the slow grind of housework. If you can’t tell, I miss business travel.

      I think you need to sit down and calculate costs, though. Does the salary make up for the costs of staying, what, 40 nights a year in a hotel and 22 round trip flights to the location? 40 nights does not seem to require a furnished rental apartment unless I’m missing something.

      But to join the chorus, people do this all the time. If this is the only job, do you really have a choice?

    • Anon

      I think you should focus on replies from those who have done something like this before vs those who haven’t tried it and claim it can’t be done. No one is saying it is easy. But lots of people have had to make it work.

    • Anon

      My sister does this. She commutes to her academic job and spends 2-3 days a week there. She has an apartment with a fellow academic in the city where her job is located. Husband handles school drop off etc. when she’s away (I think they split it 50-50 while she’s home). Obviously this changed during COVID but they are planning to go back to this schedule once travel resumes.

    • Anon

      There’s a poster on the moms s1te who had a long distance arrangement (also in academia) post kids. You might ask there. I can tell you right now that I’m an academic spouse and would not agree to this arrangement. I’m perfectly competent with my kid, but I didn’t sign up to solo parent half the time or live apart from my spouse several days a week at this stage in our lives. That said, we moved for my husband’s career (his tenure track job) and I made career sacrifices so at this point I feel like he owes me more than I owe him and maybe you don’t have the same dynamic.

    • Nesprin

      Academic here- I would do this, because I love my work and academic posts in sane functional departments that appreciate your specialty, that you don’t have to move for are RARE. I’ve had friends do this- they found that hotel rooms were cheaper than a long term rental, and not having to do laundry meant that the travelling partner could work 2-3 x 12 hr days, then have a full day off at home.

      This will be incredibly hard on your spouse and I think you should price out building as much child support into the system as possible (i.e. an au pair or 40hr/week nanny for either am or pm kid stuff). (likewise, if you have teaching responsibilities, making sure you don’t get volunteered for summer term makes a huge difference)

    • Another anon

      I am an academic and I would apply. You can always agonize once you get the offer! Jobs are scarce and I predict that post-pandemic there will be a LOT more that can be done remotely. Of course there will be trade-offs (busy and tired, loss of some face-to-face interactions), but you never know unless you try.

  12. anon

    Two requests:

    – Favorite glass water bottle. Ideally without a straw and dishwasher safe.

    – If you were starting grad school, what would be a great gift in the $30 range? A friend of mine (late 20s) will be moving across the country to start a PhD program next month. She loves hiking, beer, reading, and science. I have a few gift ideas in mind, but if there’s something in that price range that would have been great for grad school I’d love to get her that instead.

    • Cb

      Moleskine notebooks and mildliner highlights, book with hiking routes in her new area, nice socks?

      • Anon

        +1 to Moleskine notebooks. I started that habit in grad school and still use them daily.

    • Cora

      That water bottle

      Gift cards to nice cafes or breweries in that area.

      Laptop or phone case if she doesnt have one

      A small painting of her hometown or where you 2 currently live

      I’m trying to think of what I smaller things I used on a regular basis in grad school – laptop case, planner notebook, water bottle, coffee thermos, maybe one of those cable carrying cases, a nice pencil case if she’ll use it, make up /travel bag if she’ll be traveling more than she is currently.

    • Anon

      If your friend is moving across the country, get her a gift card to Target and heartfelt card, or send physical things after she moves.

      • OP

        We’re going to be on a trip together for her actual birthday, so I’d like to get her something to open on the actual day, since it’ll be just us!

  13. Anon

    My boyfriend and I have been talking about eloping. We’d like to go away for a long weekend and come back and tell everyone we got married. Looking for ideas, so where would you want to go to do this? And if you’ve done this before, do you have any tips or things you’d do differently?

    • AZCPA

      We talked about doing this, and had narrowed to Sonoma (many of the vineyards will do minimal celebrations on site) or classic Vegas chapel. Both seemed super easy, though we ended up eloping in our backyard due to Covid.

    • Anon

      Vegas. Make sure you figure in the appropriate amount of times to get a marriage license. I wouldn’t change a thing.

    • Anon

      My friend did this in Vegas an got married by an Elvis impersonator. My parents eloped to Carmel, CA and got married on the beach!

      • Anonymous

        +1. That’s where I got married (although it wasn’t an elopement) and no regrets. The building is beautiful. Just don’t linger in the neighborhood after…

    • all about eevee

      We went to Estes Park, CO. It was perfect for an elopement because you don’t need an officiant in Colorado to get married and the license was like $30. Then, we walked around town and went hiking in the Rockies. It was dreamy.

    • BB

      We went to city hall and signed the marriage certificate (which included a 2 minute vows thing), then took a trip to a hiking park and “got married” on the trail. I count the trail ceremony as our actual anniversary. But in general…ELOPING IS AWESOME, especially if you’re kind of introverted :)

    • Anonymous

      I’d vote anywhere BUT Vegas since it’s usually associated with fast/drunk/semi-trashy. I’d choose a destination that we both found beautiful–maybe somewhere exotic or sentimental. I was married (very small wedding but could just as easily have been only the two of us) on the beach in Turks and Caicos (one of the first trips I took with my husband) and couldn’t have asked for a more perfect place. If you do go out of the country, just make sure you’ve got all the paperwork you need and know the rules for the locality. It was a simple process for us, but I seem to recall there was some sort of rule like you had to file the paperwork at least 24 hours in advance and we needed to provide not just driver’s license but I think birth certificate as well (been too long now to fully remember).

      • Anon

        That’s definitely where my mind goes when I think Vegas, but the others are right that there is a whole industry for this so I bet we could find something that suits us if we wanted to. Thanks for the ideas, everyone! We’re both very excited about this.

      • Seventh Sister

        My sister leaned into the “Vegas” part of Vegas really hard for her wedding. She got married at the Elvis chapel by the “Blue Hawaii” Elvis so we all wore Hawaiian shirts. Buffet reception afterwards, super fun. I had a much more traditional wedding but honestly, I think hers was more fun!

    • Anon

      Vegas is the obvious choice because they have a whole industry dedicated to this. And there is a very wide range of options – from low key to over the top. But my choice would be to pick where you want to spend a weekend and see what your options are there depending on travel times. Just remember that most places will require you to both show up during regular government business hours to get your license.

      My sister did this in San Diego. Filled out her application on line, showed up on Friday (I think with an appointment) to pick it up, had a separate appointment to actually get married in City Hall, and then spent her weekend in San Diego.

    • Anon

      New Orleans is a fun place to elope! It is a billion degrees here right now, though!

    • Anon

      I eloped, highly recommend! The paperwork part of this probably varies from state to state and maybe you can do more of it online now, but I definitely had to go to the courthouse twice: once to fill out all the paperwork and get the license and a second time a few days later for the actual wedding. For that reason, it might be easier to actually get married at your local courthouse and then go away, so just make sure you know what the process is. It’s easy for me to say when my local courthouse is beautiful, though- Kamala Harris also got married there!

    • anon

      I could do this at the Marin Civic Center (near San Francisco). It is a simply stunning Frank Lloyd Wright Building and near Napa Wine Country. You can get your marriage license and get married there. We did it all in one day.

    • Anon

      We did Vegas, but out in the desert. The industry is there, so it is easy. We literally showed up the day before, got our marriage license (the office is open every day, long hours), and got married the next day. We used a company that gave us a photog/witness and officiant. The officiant was perfect, despite not ever meeting us before the day. I would do it again in a heartbeat. The company also handled all of the permits and logistics. Our photos are gorgeous (we did photography for an hour after the ceremony). Google “elopement [city].” There are tons of companies cropping up that handle these with lots of options to customize if you don’t want the stress of figuring everything out on your own.

    • Anon

      Hawaii!! You can have a beautiful beach wedding and a honeymoon in paradise. You’d have to go for a full week though unless you’re West Coast based.

  14. Anon

    NYS-based’rettes: can anyone recommend hikes in the NYC area that can be reached via public transport? Thanks a lot!

    • PistachioLemon

      Take Metro North to Cold Spring. There is a super cute little town with restaurants/ice cream/etc. If you walk about a mile from the station, there are a bunch of trails, many of which have a nice view of the Hudson River. Googling should get you a map. I like to do it as a day trip – go, hike, have a nice dinner, go home on the train. Have fun!

      Also, the AT crosses Metro North too — there is a stop and you can hike off of there. Not as much in terms of cute town though.

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