ByKat Hours Updated
Comments 489 Comments

Weekend Open Thread

Stuart Weitzman - Peekapoo (Black Crystal Snake) - FootwearSomething on your mind? Chat about it here. Zappos has a number of brands on deepish discount this weekend, including Stuart Weitzman, Elizabeth and James, L.A.M.B., Sigerson Morrison, and — wait for it — Salvatore Ferragamo. I like the look of these Peekapoo pumps from Stuart Weitman — perfect for the quickly approaching season of holiday parties. These were $360, but are now marked to $216 at Zappos. Stuart Weitzman – Peekapoo (Black Crystal Snake) – Footwear (L-2)

Sales of note for 12.3.24 (lots of Cyber Monday deals extended, usually until 12/3 at midnight)

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

489 Comments

  1. I could use some advice about packing away clothes. I’m pregnant, and won’t be wearing a lot of my best work attire this winter. Due to storage concerns (and making room for baby), I’m planning to pack these away in our dry, but unfinished basement. Would love advice about how to most safely do this. Can I buy a bunch of rubbermaid containers and fold things up with some cedar blocks in the boxes? I’m mainly concerned about slacks, sweaters and dresses. Some dry clean only, some washable. Thanks for any advice!

    1. I put my out of season clothes in the large rubbermaid containers, and nothing gets damaged.

    2. That is exactly what I did when I was pregnant, and the clothes were fine. I ended up donating many of them, but that is another story. :)

    3. Just be sure everything has been cleaned before it gets stored, and that anything dry cleaned has a few days to air out (remove the plastic bag) before it gets stored.

      1. I have found that in extremes of heat (not sure if this is a problem for you), clothes stored in my shed outside suffered wrinkling that has been very hard to iron out. Took multiple washes, and heavy pressing with tons of steam. Also, some buttons faded/color changed and will have to be replaced. Other than that, the rubbermade containers worked well for me.

        (I’m talking about 90-105 temps here for me. Maybe not a problem for you in your basement?)

    4. If your basement is damp, you should run a dehumidifier. Otherwise your clothes might get moldy. Happened to some old suits my husband had in our basement.

    6. I did the rubbermaid tubs in the basement also. However, one thing that I found helpful was to pack them as I outgrew them. So one tub contained regular clothes that fit on skinny days, and one tub contained non-maternity clothes that were more forgiving, ran big or could be “transitional.”

      After I had the baby, I reintegrated the “transitional” tub of clothes back into my wardrobe first, so I didn’t feel bad that I couldn’t yet fit into my other regular clothes. After a few more months of weight loss, I was able to bring up the other tub and put those back in the rotation. It was also nice because then I had two tubs for maternity clothes. One was for “pregnant” and one was for “very pregnant” clothes!

    7. Yes, as long as everything is cleaned it should be fine. I never used cedar (don’t really like the smell) and all my clothes were fine. I would just put heavy things on the bottom of the containers and then lighter things on top. Also, if you roll sweaters (not fold), they tend to wrinkle less in my experience.

    8. I packed my maternity clothes from my first pregnancy in Rubbermaid containers and they hung out there for four long years until I had occasion to pull them out again. They were stored in an attic for 1 year and a basement for 3 years. They were totally fine after one wash.

    1. Don’t be offended by this, but are you a real person (as opposed to a spam machine)? Curious about the link, but don’t want to click it…

          2. Where the heck would you ever wear this? Bad color combo completely outweighs the shape. Too formal for casual; too oddly colored for work or most formal events.

  3. I’m still hunting shoes for my wedding, now just a few weeks away. I’m looking for high quality i.e. $100 minimum; bright color or serious sparkle; silk, patent leather, or glitter; and 3″, which is proving to be quite the challenge. Has anyone tried Casadei shoes? They seem to have some nice color options, but I’ve never tried on this brand. Other suggestions are welcome if anyone feels like shoe shopping with me :).

    1. And by “silk” I mean poly satin too. Basically not regular leather, pleather, or canvas.

      1. Upper limit is like… $800… but flexible for the right pair ;). Those Manolos are lovely. But the trick is that the shoes really can’t be above 3.5″, and 3″ is much better. I got my dress used, so it’s already hemmed to be a 3″ heel on me. 4″ is just too high for the dress.

        1. That’s too bad. I’m not normally a Kate Spade kind of girl but the Leena shoe in sort of charcoal silk with glitter heels keeps popping up on Piperlime and I covet them. There seem to be a few glittery Kate Spade shoes there that would fit the bill for you. Have fun! When I got married I had no idea what I wanted and went pretty traditional. If I got married again today, I’d know exactly what I want and it wouldn’t be the vintage-y but beautiful dress and shoes I wore then.

    3. I got married this summer and saw a LOT of brides with a particular Badgley Mischka shoe — I think the style name is something like Humbee. Very glittery. (I actually really wanted colour or sparkle as well – didn’t find much I liked and ended up going with a pink tulle heel, also by BM. (Google “dusk pump”, I think. In pink.) The heel is a bit high though..

    4. stuart weitzman. this should be a fairly easy search, and if you look on zappos, you can problably find them on sale in the 150-250 range.

      1. or jsut zappos in general. i jsut did a quick search and found tons!

    5. Ohh so jealous. I’m dying to wear Kate Spade heels to my wedding, but my fiance’s not tall enough (or I’m too tall, whichever). Most of their styles would totally fit the bill for you. Like these! http://tinyurl.com/862nryt
      Bonus: this particular model, and most of their other shoes, are super comfy.

        1. Search for Jimmy Choo Glitter-Covered Leather Sandy flats on the Saks website (sorry, don’t know how to do the link thing!) I didn’t buy these for my wedding – just snagged a pair earlier this year on an impulse – but I wore them when I went to check out one of my potential venues and the woman showing me the place mentioned that she had worn them for her own wedding. Didn’t really occur to me what a pretty and practical pair of bridal shoes they’d be until then!

    7. Have you tried Butter shoes on endless dot com? Not going to post any links for fear of moderation but you can search by type and heel height (similar to zappos)

    8. I got married last month and wore the Stuart Weitzman gemex in silver. They are gorgeous, and I can wear them in the future with other dresses. I didn’t want to get something that would only go with my wedding gown. My feet were screaming by the end of the night, though. I should have changed into more comfortable shoes for dancing.

    9. I spent ages agonizing over what shoes to wear for my wedding! Silly, I know, but I couldn’t help myself. I wound up going with a closed toe glittery pump from Jimmy Choo (Ailsa – 4.3 inches). I convinced myself that the closed toe would make the glittery pump more wearable.

      Kate Spade has a pretty slingback (Charmer style) that is 3.5 inches and a richly saturated blue. Kate Spade

      Jimmy Choo’s India style is a strappy sparkly shoe and comes in either Champagne or Gold. Heel is 3.3 inches.

    10. I really like Casadei shoes. I think they are gorgeous and very well made. (And there was an accidental deal on Rue La Law last night where one gorgeous pink pair was listed for $19.99 instead of $199.99 and it kills me that I didn’t see that email until it was too late!)

      Other ideas: SW (I recently rediscovered this brand; thought it was way too narrow and avoided, but tried a few super comfy pairs recently and realized maybe that’s not the case); Kate Spade… If you can find a style you like, I don’t think you can beat Ferragamos for comfort. I also like Joan & David heels (on the slightly lower end). Personally, I do not find Badgley Mischka comfortable, but that may vary with the individual.

      A friend of mine from college got married this spring in awesome white patent leather with bright red heel Versace pumps that were fantastic (the red heel peeked out fabulously in the pics, too). I will try to find a link…

    11. If you just go to women’s shoes in Zappos, along the side you can check boxes to search for exactly what you want – e.g. 2-3″ heel, satin or patent, bright color, etc. I found several pairs from the brand Vigotti that meet your criteria and have five-star reviews.

      But the one I really like is the Stuart Weitzman Gigiritz. Comes in magenta and fuchsia satin, 2.75″ heel, great quality brand. The Stuart Weitzman Chantelle also comes in metallics, also with a 2.75″ heel. I think either of those would be a great option for you!

    12. Milk and Honey shoes – they’re completely custom, so you can pick out exactly what you want, from the heel height to the trim to the amount of sparkle. I have 7 or 8 pairs and they’re all a really good quality. http://www.milkandhoneyshoes.com

      1. ohh, you can get exactly what your looking for on milk and honey for about 300 bucks

    13. Here are some–the heel height will limit your options:

      Steven P “Glaam” in blush (love)

      Badgley Mischca “Lacie”

      Stella McCartney faux patent leather slingbacks (beautiful in bright green at net-a-porter)

      Stuart Weitzman “Turalu”

      Kate Spade “Christa” or “Chrisette”

      Nina “Forbes” (love the Fuschia) (these are bit below $100 but I’ve always liked Nina shoes)

      Ivanka Trump “Nancee” (in red)

      Martinez Valero “Latesha”

      Calvin Klein “Devine”

      1. Oh, most of these were on 6pm or Zappos, different colors might be available on one website or the other.

        I love the idea of a pop of color on your shoes that only shows when you are dancing, etc.

    15. I got married this fall and am completely in love with my Jimmy Choo glitter shoes. They come in a variety of heights and styles and they are AMAZING (and pretty comfotable).

      I got tons of compliments on them.

    16. try the designer section at Nordstrom Rack. I got my blue Valentino satin peep toe pumps with a bow there for my wedding for $299 and they usually have a pretty good selection of high end party shoes (i.e. I had to decide between my Valentino pumps and the feathered Manolos).

    17. Casadei is my fav! I’ve got 2 pairs of 3″ work heels that I’ve had re-soled twice in 3 years because I love them so much. Mine are both leather. Never tried their fancy glitter or silk. They fit true to size for me.

    18. If you’re in SF I’d go to the Saks in Union Square. I was like you in that I looked forever for wedding shoes (and I really can’t wear super high heels). I also had to match a dress that had color details in it which turned out to be harder than I thought (it was antique brocade trim and anything that didn’t match the tone well ended up looking really weird). But I found my shoes at Saks almost right away. They have a great selection of higher end shoes, and I found the salespeople really helpful also. I ended up with a pair of gold Jimmy Choos (don’t know the name of the style)…and they even ordered a fresh pair from a different store since they only had the floor model in my size.

      I didn’t end up buying from there, but the Nieman’s in Union Square also has a good selection of Louboutin and Rene Caovilla (I found their Jimmy Choo and Manolo collections to be more about work pumps).

      Though, honestly, I had several events for my wedding, and by far the most comfortable heels I wore were a pair of Nina heels I got from Macy’s (which also has a much larger than normal collection in Union Square).

  4. Okay, ladies. Normally, I’d go anon for this, but I already mentioned it in this morning’s TPS Report, and posting that comment made me realize I could use some help.

    My parents divorced in 2005 (actually a good thing). I’ll be blunt: I don’t like my father. He’s self-centered, rude, and manipulative. I try to limit my time with him for my own sanity. I’m grateful we live in different cities. Beginning in about August of every year, he starts his guilt campaign about the holidays. He wants to spend as much time with me as possible. Yet, he’ll also be completely inflexible. Example: last year, I’d already committed to spending Thanksgiving with my mother. I offered to go to my father’s house the weekend before or after Thanksgiving to do a Thanksgiving with him and his wife. He refused and threw a tantrum, saying there was no point if it wasn’t actually Thanksgiving. (Side note: am I crazy? Do other people not do multiple Thanksgivings on days other than the fourth Thursday of November?).

    I get guilt-tripped about every. single. holiday. from November to January: Thanksgiving, Christmas, NYE, my birthday. This year, I agreed to do Thanksgiving with him. I started really stressing about it approx. 3 weeks ago. The Sig. O. is going with me, but we’ve already spent hours talking about how to handle my father when we’re there because, after our last trip, we both decided we couldn’t keep doing what we were doing (which was being polite and trying to ignore the way he mistreats people around him). After Thanksgiving, it’ll be—what are you doing for Christmas? What are you doing for NYE? What are you doing for your birthday?

    So I realized I spend a pretty good chunk of my year (August through January) dealing with my father and his holiday guilt campaign. It really makes Dec-Jan stressful and unpleasant. That’s ridiculous, and it just makes me even angrier at my father. So I’m wondering whether you ladies can tell me how you juggle obligations with multiple families to deal with—especially if you’re the child of divorced parents. Also, if any of you aren’t so fond of one (or both) of your parents, I’d like to know how you handle the holidays. I feel like I am obligated to see him because he is my father, but this has me really pondering whether to cut ties altogether.

    1. I absolutely feel your pain about multiple families wanting to spend time with you during the holidays. And there always seems to be one parent who is inflexible and demanding about THEIR celebrations being the most important.

      I wish I had some magic advice … what finally saved my husband and I was when our daughter was born. At that point we told ALL of our family that if they wanted to see us on the holidays, they had to come to our house and celebrate on our schedule. While there were some complaints/etc. we didn’t budge and now have established a nice routine with all our parents.

      So, while I would of course not suggest having a child just to establish this rule, maybe decide what YOU want, take a stand about it, and then – no matter what your dad says – do not change your mind? I’m not sure if that would work, but it’s all I’ve got. :)

      Good luck! Family/parent drama at the holidays is the worst.

      1. I’m going to tell the Sig. O. I need to get knocked up to put an end to all this drama with my father. … and then I will pick him up off the floor.

        (In all seriousness, I’m pre-stressing about having kids because my father has announced on multiple occasions that when I do, he will move to my city to help me! Thanks, Dad.)

        1. Don’t worry. He cannot force his help on you. I have similar issues with inlaws ( want to help, but their help = more stress for me).

          Just be upfront.

      2. We have our first on the way in March, and we’re planning to announce the same thing. Kind of looking forward to it!

    2. oh I’m sorry, my parents are still married, but my father is similar. As I mentioned the other day, my parents go to the friggin FLORIDA KEYS every christmas to new years. While it’s free to me (except air fare) and it’s nice to get in the sun, it’s not my choice vacation. This hasn’t been much of an issue since I’ve either been in school, or have a job with a lot of vacation time. My dad makes constant comment that even when I’m married with kids I have to go on the trip, mind you they have a 2 bedroom condo. As I look for my first lawyer job, I KNOW I will not be getting a lot of vacation and do not want to waste a week of my time on this trip.

      So anyway, one of my brother’s actually “ran away from home”, as an adult and totally severed all contact with my dad because he couldn’t handle his domineering/narcissistic personality. My dad would also try to guilt me into coming home from college every weekend for non sense reasons, and I just had to put my foot down. I don’t have much advice, but totally know what you’re going through (minus the divorce part). My dad is extremely taxing to be around, unless we’re both half drunk, which thankfully is most of holidays! I also try to text/email him as much as possible rather than phone/in person conversations.

    3. Decide what you want to do in Aug., tell him, and refuse to discuss it further. I’d also take NYE and birthday off the table- completely normal to spend those with friend/s.o. If you think of you and s.o. as a pair, you have two holidays and three families- someone isn’t going to get what they want, and it may as well be the one that is never happy.

      3. Yep, this is the ticket: make sure it’s not a negotiation- offer your proposal and he can take it or leave it. You have to draw a line. It would be more difficult, I think, if you really felt close to him and the guilt was more out of missing him than pure obligation/tradition. It might be best to make a rule of every other year between mom & dad for Christmas and Thanksgiving, and then just stick to it. Then he knows years ahead of time whether you’re coming or not. End of story.

      4. Yup, this. It sounds like you need to take control and put your relationship in the grown-up to grown-up realm. He will continue to treat you as a child as long as you let him, but I bet he’ll come around as soon as you show him you are his equal. I had a pretty dramatic moment with my mother a few years ago, explaining to her that I had not come home to put up with her “passive aggressive b.s.”, but to celebrate the holidays with my family, and if it wasn’t going to be fun, I’d figure out something else for the future. She was stunned, and it was uncomfortable for half a day. But today, our relationship is much improved as a result, and I don’t even remember what triggered that statement.

      5. ITA. I’ll go one further. Anybody (I don’t care if your title is ‘mother’ or ‘father’ or whatnot) who tries ultimatums and tries to jerk me around would make me seriously question whether they loved me at all, or just when it suited their own image of themselves as “devoted parent.”

        The antics described sound very much like the classic tactics of a narcissist who only truly loves himself and loves his power over others.

        This will sound harsh, and it is, but I’d probably tell him to go s*ck it. If he doesn’t like it and wants to cut off contact, I’d see that as POSITIVE and a net improvement. (But that’s just me.)

      6. Yup. Set your boundaries, and stick to them. He’s only guilt-tripping you because he knows it works.

    4. I saw this and had to reply. I was actually thinking about posting a similar dilemma, because I’ve been going through the exact same thing, except with my mother. Worse, my parents aren’t divorced.

      My mother and I have had problems basically since I was child and, instead of getting better as I get older, it gets worse. For example: I’m recently engaged, don’t want a church wedding — and my mother has guilted me about this for weeks, with tears/yelling, to the point that my fiance and I have seriously considered elopement. The holidays seems to kick her into high gear, even though my fiance and I intend to spend Christmas with them. However, we decided to spend Thanksgiving with his parents, and so the guilt-tripping has commenced.

      All of this was made worse by the fact that my fiance and his parents invited my parents to meet at a central location (we all live far apart) right before Christmas, to meet before our wedding. My mother quickly put an end to it with vague phrases like “I’m busy” and “prior commitments” but, when pressed, couldn’t name anything and it was obvious she just didn’t want to go. She either wants to meet everyone at her house, where she is in control, or not at all (control is a huge issue of hers, but that is another story).

      That, for me, was the tipping point. I spent so much of my time guilty about not seeing my mother over Thanksgiving, to the point that my fiance and I fight fought about it, but after she showed that she couldn’t even be bothered to meet the parents of my future husband (which we both really wanted) — I basically just said, screw this. And I honestly think that’s all that can be done.

      Maybe this is cruel/not the best way to handle it, but I’ve just learned that when she slips in a little comment to make me feel guilty–ie, “I’ve always dreamed of you getting married in a church” or “I’m really upset you aren’t going to be here for Thanksgiving”–I just take it in stride, say “I’m sorry,” and do my best to move on with my life. The older I’ve grown the more I’ve realized that my mother has this strange hold over me, where I let her consistently hurt/guilt me, and sometimes the only way to deal with it is keep conversation to the pleasantries or not talk at all. Yes, she is my mother and sacrificed a lot for me, but that is part of being a parent and I shouldn’t feel guilty about that.

      1. Wow. I totally feel your pain. This sounds just like me a couple years ago… and still to some degree today. I tried what you have – just standing firm and saying “I’m sorry” and moving on. My mother and I have grown apart and the distance has been refreshing for me, although I often feel guilty about not being closer with her. I just don’t know that it’s a viable possibility. Keep your head up, though. You are in control of your own life, and you and your fiance are creating a fantastic new life for yourselves. Let that be your focus!

      2. I posted a reply to the initial comment and I had to reply to this one too. My mom pulled the same crap when I got married. I was raised Catholic but my fiance and I decided to get married in a non-catholic church. My mom was furious, cried, insisted I call her priest, etc. She was miserable throughout wedding planning (more crying, guilt tripping and fighting) My parents also decided they would not attend our rehearsal dinner because we did not invite my mom’s out of town siblings (we wanted the rehearsal to be wedding party, parents and grandparents only). They showed up at the last minute but we did not have enough seats so the staff of the restaurant had to bring out more chairs. My parents looked very foolish in front of the wedding party. The wedding day turned out great but I still feel like I missed out on the typical bride/mother of the bride planning fun.

        1. not married (never been) but have a similar relationship with my mother. I’ve spent years trying and trying and she’s never happy and always controlling. I’ve really had to learn a few things…

          1. Either she can be happy or I can and since it’s my life, it should probably be me.
          2. Choose 1 day/year when I see her where I just let her have her way (more to absolve my guilt than because I think she’ll ever let that be enough).
          3. Learn how not to look at other mother/daughter relationships with envy or hope; it only sets me up to be hurt and sad.

        2. My mom wasn’t half this bad, more passive aggressive and withdrawn (i.e. is it over yet??), and I still wake up every day glad my giant multicultural mess of a wedding is done and that I never ever have to deal with that drama again. The wedding (this past summer) was amazing, but the planning process was hell. Not entirely my mom’s fault (more mom-in-law, actually), but still. I guess my point is: I’m not convinced that a happy mother-daughter wedding planning experience is really typical. Seems like it’s more 50/50 split between drama-filled hell and positive bonding experience.

      3. CO-SIGN. Chiming in to say that I’ve learned you just have to make your offers, do what works for you, and move on. With parents, we all want them to act normal, and to be accepting of what we do/decide, and with some of them it’s just not going to happen — my mother included.

        Big hugs.

    5. Can you put the onus on him to come to you? Say, “We’re having Thanksgiving at home this year; we’d love for you to come.” If he genuinely wants to see you (instead of what it seems like might be happening – a power play) then he can’t throw a hissy over that, and I’ve always found it’s harder for people to mistreat others when they’re not on their own turf.

      Also, have you tried talking to him about this? “Dad, I know you want to see me for all these holidays, but that just isn’t possible, and when you freak out about my alternative offers, it makes me feel like you don’t really want to see me. It also really stresses me out and that’s not how I want to go through the holiday season. Please reconsider your approach, because it’s making it hard for us to come and spend time with you.”

      If you’re already considering cutting ties completely, there’s no loss in taking a fairly hard-line middle-ground stance in one of those two ways – if he says no, he can’t accommodate by coming to you or flexing on when you visit/dropping the pressure tactics, then you’re right back where you were before: considering cutting ties. If he does flex, though, you may have solved the problem (somewhat – doesn’t necessarily speak to the fact that you’re not super-fond of him generally).

      And, yes, lots of people do multiple get-togethers over a spread-out period of time to accommodate family (my family usually does Christmas on Boxing Day, in fact, for a similar reason), so you’re not crazy to think that should be an acceptable solution.

    6. Set a schedule. Make a list of the holidays, then divide them up among him, your mother, your SO’s family if the relationship has progressed to that point, and time you just want to yourself or with your SO. If some holiday is more important to him than others, assign it to him (e.g, if he gets Thanksgiving, your mother gets Christmas). If he wants them all, then rotate – one year you have TG with him and Christmas with your Mom (and maybe a day near Christmas with him), and the next year switch.

      1. This is what we do in my family and it works well. The key is that my and DH’s family are all reasonable people. Unfortunately, it sounds like OP’s father is not reasonable. :(

    7. “Dad, which one do you want – Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Years or Birthday? I can’t do all them with you this year, but would like to be able to do one of them. Which works best for you?”

      “Oh, I’m sorry, I can’t do all of them with you. I want to spend one with Mom, and then SO’s parents have to be considered. So, which one do you want?”

      “All or nothing? Well, I’m sorry it won’t work out this year. I’ll give you a call in October to see what works out for next year. Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas”.

      I think its about boundaries. Don’t let him dictate the plans, let him know what you are willing to give, but don’t let him push you past it. It sounds like he’s gotten away with a lot in the past, so it might be tough. And yes, its a lot easier to say it than it is to do it – totally recognize it. Good luck!

    8. Have the same experience…except all of my parents (even the step- ones) are this way. Considering not going home for Christmas this year as it will cost us about $1,500 and SO barely has time off…and I’m just tired of it, but not sure if I will regret it!

      2. One year in law school I didn’t go home for Christmas and it was the best Christmas ever.

    10. Dealing with some similar issues…except I was recently at dinner with husband and parents and we were discussing husband’s brother, who is a great guy. Stepfather then randomly said somethings about how husband’s parents “seem old” and are “hard to get along with” that was inappropriate but I didn’t know how to respond and husband hasn’t mentioned it. How do I tell stepfather that it is not appropriate for him to talk about husband’s parents in a negative way?

      1. Maybe just say, “Wow. I’m really shocked that you feel that way and would say these things.”

        Or do what my mother does (who is a very smart woman) and play dumb. Say something like, “Huh. It never occurred to me to think that.”

        1. Thanks, EM! I should’ve played dumb, or said I was shocked at the time, but I was too surprised to say anything. Not sure if I should say anything now to prevent stepdad from getting out of hand in the future?

    11. A lot of commiseration, and some tips

      COMMISERATION:

      My parents divorced when I was 10 (35 years ago).  My father remarried immediately.  My mother never did.  Since then, my father has remarried three times, actually, and has kids (my half-siblings) with nos. 3 and 4.  My parents had one of the bitterest divorces in our town and do not speak.  They cannot be in the same room.  For years, my sister played the same game you are – hopping between houses trying to make everyone happy.  Most of my adolescence and young adult years, I simply chose my father and his current family over my mother.  (Not proud of that, but it eliminated the back and forth.)  

      In the past decade, my father has done numerous things (Lydia (?): I know you love reading advice columns, but there isn’t enough space online to describe all he has done!) to cut me off from him and my half-siblings.  So now I don’t see him or celebrate holidays with him.  The last holiday I spent with him was Thanksgiving, with wife no. 3, the mother of three of my half-siblings.  At the time, she was attacking me about a particular issue and we were actively fighting about it the week of Thanksgiving.  I assumed I would not go to his house (he always hosted Thanksgiving) because we were fighting.  I was fine with that, if a little sad.  The night before, he called to confirm the time.  I explained why I planned to sit this one out.  He demanded I be there.  I reminded him about the fight.  He said, “So?”  I asked, “So you want me to come, sit next to her, pretend nothing is happening, and smile so you can feel that you have a perfect family experience?”  He said yes.  I said goodbye.)

      In the interim, I have created my own family of close friends, and we have a pattern of who hosts for which holiday (always Thanksgiving with X, Rosh Hashanah with Y, Yom Kippur break the fast with Z, Hannukah with us, and Seder alternates between us and Z).  I also now have a partner, and we celebrate our birthdays together.  I’m telling you all this because I hope seeing what a mess my setup is makes you feel better about yours.

      ADVICE:

      I agree with others who have said to decide what you want/are willing to do; make your plans known; and then stick to them.  This is not easy.  I actually believe that parental guilt is the most motivating force known to man.  But you can be strong, especially if you have SO’s support.

      Once you decide what your parameters are, start making your own plans.  If you have a thing about peppermint cookies, plan a XMas event centered on peppermint cookies.  (OK, this may be a stupid example.  But my point is to find something YOU like and do it.  That was how my now-traditional Hanukkah party started several years ago.)

      Good luck.  You are not alone.

    12. To provide a different perspective, I actually did cut ties with my mother about 7 years ago. I haven’t spoken to her since. This is definitely an extreme thing to do, but it was absolutely necessary for my own mental health. There is a long list of complicated reasons that it came to this point, but I do think that sometimes it is simply the right thing to do. It took me over 10 years to get to that point with my mother and wasn’t a decision I came to lightly. I don’t recommend doing it if there is any chance of having any form of a valuable relationship with him. Sometimes it is ultimately the only choice though.

    13. I am so glad to hear I’m not alone in dealing with controlling and manipulative parents who specialize in guilt trips. My brother and I decided to take a stand against their ridiculousness this year by – get this – deciding that we’re going to spend Thanksgiving at my 96 year old grandpa’s house with my extended family instead of going to my parents house. I cannot get my head around how they can be mad at us about this. Our relationship has completely deteriorated because of this situation (and other issues that have been simmering for years), so I’m on the verge of cutting ties as well.

      So my advice – you are an adult. You can decide where you want to spend your free time. Your parents do not control you. If they have a problem with your choices, it is their problem, not yours.

    14. I have a question about a situation that is obviously nowhere near as difficult as Herbie’s, but still not fun. I just got married a few weeks ago. Ever since the hubby and I got serious and started taking vacations together / spending holidays together my mom has been giving me guilt trips. Last night, on the phone, she complained (AGAIN) how I had only spent X many nights at my parents’ house this year and how they hadn’t come out to visit me at all. (They live appx 1200 miles away.) I corrected her numbers, which were incorrect, pointed out that next year we were going to split our summer vacation between his family and my family, and reminded her that the reason they didn’t visit this fall was because WE GOT MARRIED and THEY WERE THERE and we spent FOUR DAYS TOGETHER. (Sorry for all caps, frustration.) She’s said to me flat-out that a part of her was sad when I got serious with hubby and then got engaged because she feels like she gets less time from me. Admittedly she’s true, because I call her less (every other day as opposed to every day), but (1) I still do call her (2) partly it’s because my job has gotten really insane and (3) what would she like me to do, be single for life? She has no response to this. I love her but I’m just really sick of the guilt trips, and they honestly make me want to call her less. Anyone had similar experiences?

      And Herbie: your situation is awful. I feel for you.

      1. I have no real advice for the guilt trips, but I do have advice for the vacation time.

        Take a vacation, just the two of you. Even if it’s just a few days.

        My husband and I spent all of our vacation time visiting family for the first five years of our marriage because they were spread out. Until this past summer, we had never had a vacation that didn’t involve visiting his parents or one of his sisters, and I was honestly starting to resent that. Taking a vacation with just the two of us was one of the best things we’ve done for our marriage.

        1. We do take vacations just the two of us — which I think our families think we’re selfish for doing. We get 4 weeks a year, so the way I see it, 2 weeks is for us, and 2 weeks is for them. Which was fine with my mom when she had all 2 weeks . . . but not so much now that she has to share.

      2. Totally feel for this. The only difference for me is that I live close to my parents. I talk to my mom at least every other day, and see her usually once a week or every other week. A couple weeks ago, we went to a baby shower for my sister and spent the entire Saturday afternoon together. The very next day, she posts a status on facebook to the effect of “When we first got married, my husband and I made a point of spending every Sunday after church together at one of our parents homes. Somehow over the years the tradition has faded, but I still miss those times. It seems that Sundays is when I miss my married daughters the most.” We were just together (all of us – both married daughters and mother) YESTERDAY! WTF?! I feel like whatever time I do spend with her is never enough, no matter if it’s little or small.

        1. Katie — your story definitely reminds me of my own family in a different way. There is something about parents and grieving for tradition, I think. My mother is OBSESSED with having a “traditional” Thanksgiving — which to her specifically means women cooking in the kitchen, men watching TV in the living room. (She has said this to me directly.) However, for a million reasons I won’t get into, hubs and I now host my family for the holiday every year. So, um, you tell me I have to have Thanksgiving at my house but then you criticize how we do it (I make all the traditional food, just do some ahead of time and don’t spend all day in the kitchen)??? Give me a break, lady. I feel the same way as you, Katie — that nothing I do is ever enough. Gah.

        2. Katie G, you make me feel better that I’m not alone. Tell your mom it could be worse, you could live 1200 miles away. :)

      3. Our life got easier when hubby and I moved closer to our parents. Not saying that you SHOULD move closer, but it is something to think about, especially if you plan to have children. I hated traveling for the holidays, and it was really stressful when there was a family emergency or illness.

    15. Dealing with this situation too. I am the “difficult” one because I, after a 4 hour flight, do not feel safe renting a car and driving 6 hours through the night in potentially blizzard-like weather (I haven’t driven in winter since 2002).

      My mom went ahead and planned her Christmas (she has a big family and a new husband). My dad “doesn’t want me to commit” to my mom’s plan because he still hasn’t decided if he is going to be in Prague (yes, in Europe) over Christmas.

      CheeseNCrackers! I’m telling both my parents that I will not return over Christmas unless and until they have a reasonable itinerary for me by November 1 that doesn’t involve driving 700 miles in the snow in 3 days.

    16. I am not close with my mother at all… I basically have 1 holiday a year where I will be at the dinner table with her and will come into town the day before and leave the day after. It’s the same holiday every year. And I don’t budge. She knows she gets 3 days and that’s it and in the instances where she’s tried to guilt me into other times, I will either ask if she wants to switch holidays or I will tell her I can simply cancel coming the next year (based on what mood I’m in haha). Also, I make sure I have a vehicle available and have stood up from the table a time or two and threatened to leave if xxxx behavior didn’t stop immediately.

      I remain calm but firm and eventually, I teach her how to behave or make it clear that she can continue or have me there but not both.

    17. If you still want a relationship with your father, you have to tell him that his behaviour is unacceptable and you will not tolerate it. It’s a difficult thing to say (I doubt it will be a conversation from you have said), but you have to do it.
      Now, if you father is like my mother, he will tell you that he is the parent and you are being disrespectful by not doing what he wants. I dealt with that by telling my mother I would not spend time with her if she continued to be unpleasant. Then she was sarcastic by constantly asking if she’s being pleasant enough, so I truthfully tell her she is not and I no longer spend holidays with her.
      I did feel guilty about it, but I gave her the oppty and she didn’t take it. But in all honesty my life is a lot easier now.
      Think about it this way – would you allow a friend or spouse to treat you that way? If not, there is no reason to allow your parents to do so.
      Anyway, i agree with the others that you must set and follow boundaries. Good luck

      1. Yeah, as I mentioned above, Sig. O and I decided after our last visit that something has to change. So for T-giving, when my father’s rude, the plan is to pull him aside, tell him his behavior is unacceptable and is the main reason he doesn’t see me, and tell him he needs to cut that sh* out. I don’t have high hopes, but after one particularly nasty remark last visit, I’m done letting him victimize me.

        As for what to do next year… we’ll see. The reason I’m spending T-giving with him this year is because I spent Christmas/Thanksgiving with my mom last year, and it was just guilt trip overload and so stressful that I thought, “Maybe I should just suck it up and spend a holiday with him.” We’ll see how this Thanksgiving goes.

        1. Ah, the divorced parents holiday shuffle. I am just thankful my parents are no longer living in the same town, as that took absolutely all enjoyment out of the holidays-it was just a crazy marathon of my sister and I running around trying to keep everyone happy and make sure they felt included.

          Now, Mom and her family get Thanksgiving and Dad and his family get Christmas. I grew up in the city where Dad and his family live, and more of my friends are in town around Christmas, and the weather is more unpredictable at that time, so it’s better to have a shorter, non-connecting flight at Christmas (impossible to do for travel to my mom). End of story.

          My parents will occasionally make comments about how it would be nice to have the other holiday, but I’ve done my holidays this way for the last 4 years so they’ve come to expect it at this point. Admittedly, this plan will get more complicated when my S.O. and I spend holidays together, which we haven’t done largely because I know there would be hurt feelings. Were it not for my sister and my grandma, I would gladly spend all holidays with his family.

          Re: your dad-I have a very tenuous and surface relationship with him, which actually started before my parents divorce. I truly believe he means well, but he can be a real a**hole. We can spend about 3 peaceful days together and then it all goes downhill. One of my best friends and I somewhat laugh about the fact that she is my go-to call when I am in tears about my family, which has happened (unfortunately) on multiple holidays.

          Anyway, what you said above is basically exactly what my old therapist told me: “Dad, we do not have a close relationship because I don’t like to be around x,y,z, and we will not ever have that relationship until these behaviors stop.” She recommended doing this in an even tone, before I was already upset. To be honest, I am still working up the courage because I do not look forward to the fallout. But, as she said, if he cannot respect and honor your genuine feelings, what will you get out of the relationship with him?

          Sorry for the long and rambling post! Hope you are able to reach a non-guilt place about these decisions. Clearly, they aren’t easy to make.

          1. A quick last note-she is my old therapist only because she retired. I really valued her thought and perspective, and will say that it helped me to have a neutral ear as I talked through preparing for holidays (which sounds terrible, I know, but I would start worrying a month in advance about what would go wrong). Sometimes it’s nice to have outside validation (if you didn’t have enough already :) that the behavior is unacceptable.

          2. Laura #2, some excellent points. My mother has dealt (poorly) with a lot of manipulative relatives, and I always ask, if they treat you this badly when you are already complying with all their ridiculous demands, what do you even hope to get out of the relationship with them? And she only ever repeats the same “family is everything” dogmatic crap. Which suggests that she values some sort of ability to check to box and say that she talks to her brothers often, and are involved with their children. I once said to her, rather snarkily, “yeah, getting calls from an extortionist several times a year must be really rewarding.”

        2. I can totally hear where you’re coming from Herbie…

          My parents divorced about 2 years ago, and they can’t be in the same room together. Both of my parents caused me pain and hurt during their divorce by their inappropriate behaviour, and while my mom has apologized and generally made amends, my dad has not.

          My dad is currently in a serious relationship, and despite the fact that he didn’t spend alot of time with my siblings and I while we were growing up, he’s now in super-dad mode: He wants to see us for all of the holidays, and will go to extremes to get us to come to his city to visit him, including paying for my siblings and I, and our SOs, to fly from our various cities to visit him.

          Every time I visit my dad (whether it’s for a holiday dinner or for coffee or whatever when either of us happens to be in the other’s city) I end up feeling upset afterwards because I feel like I’m being manipulated or used to make him look good in front of his girlfriend. I’ve realized that I can’t change him, but I can limit my time around him so that I don’t continue to feel this way.

          For Canadian Thanksgiving this year in October, my dad wanted all of us to come and visit him and his girlfriend. He offered to pay for all of our flights, even though most of us would only be in town for 2 days. My siblings decided to go and “suck it up” with their SOs, and they spent most of the week up to the trip planning what to do if my dad started acting inappropriate and how they would escape if they couldn’t take it anymore. I couldn’t emotionally put myself in that position–the thought of being trapped in a potentially toxic situation was too much for me. My dad pressured me to come up for Thanksgiving and tried to make me feel guilty for not being able to come. In the end, I was happy that I didn’t spend the holiday weekend with my stomach in knots.

          I applaud your efforts to spend time with your dad, and your plan to call him on his inappropriate behaviour at Thanksgiving. Remember that you always have the option not to visit him for the holidays. It sucks to have that as an option because it sounds like you want to have a healthy relationship with your dad, but I think sometimes taking yourself out of the situation and refusing to internalize the guilt that others may try to place on you can be the healthiest thing for you. You need to take care of yourself first and foremost–don’t sacrifice your own emotional health by “sucking it up” just to make your dad happy.

        3. I just read a book called “Feeling Good Together,” By psychologist David Burns, that you might find helpful. It’s about how to deal with difficult relationships and provides a sort of template for the kinds of conversations it sounds like you need to have with your father. I haven’t tried putting the whole thing into practice, but I have used some aspects of it it difficult work relationships with very good results, and the author provides some amazing examples of how he has used it with difficult patients.

    18. My mother and I are not close. Additionally, she wants to have the perfect holidays and stresses when things are not going her way. I find the whole holiday visit very stressful, so I’ve made it once in the past ten years. I’d rather visit her or have her visit me during the summer when the pressure of the holidays is not there.

      Kanye’s right: you set the boundaries. Decide with the SO what you are willing to do, and then back each other up. It’s your holiday/birthday/celebration, too. You deserve to take a break.

    19. I cut ties. Healthiest thing I have ever done! Just because you are related doesn’t mean you need to expose yourself to that.

    20. Hi,

      I can commiserate. My parents got divorced in 2004 when I was a senior in college.

      I’ve had a lot of ups and downs dealing with my parents since they split. I actually had to go to counseling for it. The best thing I got out of it was learning how to detach myself from the drama and guilt they tried to inflict on me.

      So I will just say this to you, and I hope it helps: Your parents problems are not your fault. You are an adult and you get to make adult decisions. You are not being unreasonable when you say “I will spend Holiday A with you and Holiday B with Mom and for Holiday C with my SO, etc.”

      My mom used to get really upset when I wouldn’t be with her for parts of the holidays, but now she’s happy to see me when I can be around. I just tell myself that I am a good daughter and they are lucky to have me, and I married a great guy and I’m making them proud…big picture stuff.

      Hugs. I know this stuff can suck.

    21. Herbie, I’m glad you re-posted. I almost responded to your earlier post but it was so late I didn’t think you’d see it.

      This doesn’t seem to be about your dad wanting to see you. It looks like it’s a combination of i) not wanting your mom to ‘win’ your holiday time, and ii) wanting to exert control over you.

      Children are hard-wired to please their parents. It’s how they ensure their survival. When we grow up, it’s hard to shake that habit. Remind yourself (if necessary by reading a bullet-point list before phone calls) that while your dad can be angry, he can’t actually ground you/send you to bed without dinner/stand you in a corner. He can whine and guilt trip, and you can respond to that by hanging up. He has NO practical power over you – his power is all in your head.

      I suggest you call him before Thanksgiving and lay out ground rules: no hurtful comments/shouting/whatever, or you will leave. This means that you will need to have your own transportation and a separate place to stay. Those are useful to have even if he doesn’t act out, because you won’t worry that you’re trapped IF he acts out.

      I didn’t cut ties with my own manipulative mother – I just quit spending holidays with her. I warned her ahead of time that holidays would be off the table if SpecificBehavior happened again. She didn’t believe me, and it happened. So the next year when she called 10 days before Thanksgiving to firm up plans, I reminded her of the prior year and told her we’d be doing something else. (Side note: first holiday away from family is WAY more fun if you spend it skiing.)

      I still spend time with my mom – just not on holidays. She whines about it occasionally, but I just remind her that I don’t care for the dynamic she’s created, and that she had plenty of opportunities to change it. Visiting toxic people is WAY easier if it’s done outside the realm of loaded holidays.

      TL;DR – give your dad the third weekend in June, or something. But not a holiday! Recognize that his behavior is abusive and you don’t have to reward it.

    22. No advice – I think everyone’s covered the bases and offered some really good ideas – just hugs.

    23. My in-laws refuse to acknowledge that I have a family. The families live an hour apart and when we go to leave my husband’s family – no matter how long we were there – they all whine like babies. My mom is flexible in terms of Christmas, Christmas Eve, or Christmas dinner. When she used to cook (too old now) she would make Thanksgiving at 7 pm if the in-laws were having theirs at noon. I cook now and I invited my family, and only my family every other year for Thanksgiving. On off years, we go to my husband’s family and I have no guilt about not reciprocating. None.

    24. I am so thankful for this thread and will be using some of these tactics later in life. In my family, I’m the only one who stands up to my dad, and that helps me deal with him. Even if he gets pissy it never lasts more than a few days.

      So my dad and brother havent’ spoken in 2 years, and today my dad’s saying to me “what did I ever do to him, it’s not like I hit him, sexually abused him blah blah blah” and I said well it was the summation of a bunch of small things, and he goes well so what life sucks, you deal with he. He just will not accept that he has any personality flaw whatsoever, and thats probably how some of your parents are.

      I still talk to my brother a semi-frequently (he lives across the country but I go out there once a year) but I never ask him about the dad situation, and he doesn’t ask me about him. So I honestly don’t know if he feels guilty or not. My dad keeps thinking at some point he’ll “realize what he did” and come back to him or something (like when he gets married/has kids etc).

      It’s comforting to know there are many others dealing with this. I know they’ll be way more issues when I start my own family.

    25. My ten cents:

      You can’t change him. It’s not your fault.

      All you can do is seek to be at peace with yourself.

      Be in the moment with it. Pray. Meditate. Get a good therapist.

      Read “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Viktor Frankl. He was a Jewish psychotherapist who survived Auschwitz…It is just about the ultimate self-help book and will give you good things to chew on.

    26. I don’t think this is a divorced-parent problem, I think it’s a guilt-tripping problem.
      I completely second non #79’s advice.
      And I also agree that abuse is usually less on your own turf. I also found (in my family and others’) that it’s less when there are unrelated people present. I only showed up for Christmas with new-to-them friends for that reason, with good results. Beware that they must be new friends, the effect wears off in just a couple times :-). Try to have it be fairly blunt friends who’ll at least raise their eyebrows when the comments get out of hand.
      Start by refusing Thanksgiving. Then you’ll be in better shape for this holiday season :-).

    27. Well, I tried to post a bunch of things over the weekend, but none of them came through. Weird.

      Anyway, I wanted to thank you ladies for your great insight. Lots of good food for thought. This is why I love Corporette!

      I will keep you posted on how T-giving goes.

  5. Threadjack – Last week I accidentally “outed” myself as a Republican to my very liberal supervisor. A group of us were out to lunch and they started going off on a local Republican politician that I have personally volunteered with. I knew what they were saying was completely untrue and without thinking, I corrected them. There was silence as they all stared at me and I thought, “Sh*t, how do I get out of this?” Thankfully a fellow co-worker, and not so closeted Republican, said something related and then steered the conversation to something his kids were doing at school.

    Now, this supervisor keeps making little barbs and jokes (some good natured, some not) about being towards the right and I don’t appreciate them. With my performance review coming up next month, should I be worried? My political leanings have nothing to do with my job so it shouldn’t matter but the line between personal and professional is always a bit blurred.

    Also, how can I nicely let him know that his barbs make me uncomfortable? Can I just ask that we agree to disagree and table it forever? Any advice would be appreciated. TIA.

    1. Is there any chance the old “Ignore-it-and-it-will-go-away” strategy could work? I’ve always kept my political opinions under wraps at the office; probably not the most self-actualizing thing to do, but I’ve always been able to make everyone I work with think I agree with them (on matters of politics) without ever saying much.

      If it were me, I’d probably take the “yeah, whatevs, I don’t care” approach whenever someone tried to get a rise out of me. Or tell them you’re actually a Quebecois separatist or something they know nothing about. Hopefully they’ll get bored and leave it alone.

      1. I agree with this strategy. Most people I know who enjoy talking and debating politics get bored with people who don’t respond to the teasing and prodding.

    2. Next time a barb comes up, sweetly smile and say something along the lines of, “And you would never know it, because I don’t like to talk about politics at work!” The fact they didn’t know until your slip gives credibility to the shrug off.

      I had the same situation (I accidentally outed myself as a right leaner at an event for a Dem. senator…to the senator in front of my boss. Whoops.). The above worked for me.

      2. I agree with this. And can I say how angry it makes me when people do this? I feel like the appropriate thing to do when you find out someone you spend a fair amount of time with has a different political persuasion is to not talk about politics around that person. Am I just old fashioned?

        1. I don’t always agree with this. I think of it almost like sports, some people like talking politics, some don’t.

          I love talking about politics, especially with people that don’t have the same views as I do. Whenever someone seems uncomfortable discussing politics or when they never participate in any political conversation, I don’t try to talk to them about it anymore. (As an aside, I also don’t ever tease others about their political views unless I know them VERY well and we have a teasing kind of relationship.) There are lots of people out there who can agree to disagree on politics, who enjoy the discussions, and who don’t hold it against others who disagree with them.

          But I do agree that you have to tread carefully around some people and that when someone doesn’t want to talk about politics, you shouldn’t make them.

          1. I would say – talking about politics is so unhappy for everyone just now with everything that is going wrong in the world – I’d rather just not talk about it at all.

        2. Yes. There is nothing wrong with intelligent conversation about politics. I don’t understand people who feel “attacked” or “outed” when their political views are challenged.

          1. The problem is that an intelligent conversation about politics rarely happens anymore (if it ever did). It’s usually one (or both) side spouting regurgitated sound bites they heard somewhere and taking them as gospel truth. And in my book, “challenging” me on my political views is not the same as discussing them politely.

          2. I disagree with non that people hardly ever have intelligent political discussions. It depends on the people, but some of my favorite people to spend time with have been friends with different political views that we’ve spent time discussing. I wouldn’t even knock soundbites – if you’ve heard something on (Daily Kos/Rush Limbaugh), asking the person who prefers the opposite entertainer what they think of it can be a very eye opening experience for both, if the people involved are willing to be introspective and honest.

            I agree that if it makes people uncomfortable, you shouldn’t bring it up. But, personally, I’m probably more interested in talking to the person who isn’t made uncomfortable by this.

        3. I enjoy talking about politics with friends, both those that I agree with and those I don’t. I just hate it when you’re in a context where you’re not certain everyone involved is still going to like each other in the end, like work or networking events.

          I tend to come across as more forceful than I intend when discussing politics, so I might have had more bad experiences than those corporettes whose demeanor is more restrained.

    3. What about saying something, “ugh I don’t generally like talking politics with people I respect so much and agree with on everything else.”

    4. I maxed out my 401K before the end of the year. Does it effect the employer match? I thought the best way was to contribute something EVERY pay period.

      2. Yes you have lost the employer match for the year. You want to make sure you get the match every pay period so you want to watch the max

      3. As long as you contributed the max that your employer matches, you took full advantage even if you did so earlier in the year than you had planned. For example, if your employer matches dollar for dollar, up to $5,000/year, there is no difference (in terms of matching) between your contributing $5,000 before July and getting the full match or your contributing $5,000 all year and getting the full match.

      4. Correct, your employer only matches the amount put in per pay period; so you should have spread out your 401K payments throughout the year. So if you’ve maxed out, I’m assuming you got there by a percentage amount of your paycheck; go now and fill out your HR form and do a dollar number per pay period, which maxes out at the end of the year but still gets you the employer match. (Hope I’m making sense; I’m going to have to do this for next year as I’m teetering on the max with my % and will lose out on the employer match in the last few pay periods if I don’t watch it.)

      5. It really depends on your plan. Some 401(k) matching provisions are written so that is determined only per pay period; some have a “true up” provisions so you get whatever you missed out on due to that in an extra contribution at the end of the year.

  6. I’m looking for advice about how to get my mom to take more pride in her appearance. She’s a nurse, so she wears scrubs to work, minimal jewelry and light make up, which I think is fine. She colors her hair and styles it daily, and it always looks nice. My problem is that on the weekends, she wears sweatsuits everywhere. We recently went to brunch with my grandma and aunts, nothing fancy, but everyone else had on nice jeans and sweaters, and my mom is in a sweatsuit. She’s a little heavy, but has good proportions, and she’s in her mid-50s, but this is nothing new. I know part of it is that she works a lot and has other demands on her time. With Christmas coming up, I thought maybe we could go shopping together for a good weekend outfit (my treat).

    1. I would take her to a store where she could try on things that are just as comfortable as a sweatsuit but far more stylish. My grandmother is not that much older than your mom, and I know that she used to love Coldwater Creek and its printed skirts and knit pants, which had elastic waistbands and were extremely comfortable. Maybe also treating her to a day with a personal shopper would make it easier for her, since the message about taking pride in her appearance and buying clothes to reflect how she feels about herself may be better delivered by an objective/neutral third party?

    2. I think she has to do want to do it. My mom dresses nice to okay for most occasions, but does not take care of her hair, nails and some extent her skin (I guess due to genes her face looks great, but her hands and feet are always rough) at all. People have gotten her countless gift cards to salons/spas that she just lets expire and not get used. She’s fairly “busy”, but doesn’t work full time so she could fit it in if she wants to, and the money is not a problem as my dad tells her all the time, just got spend the day at the salon, i don’t care what you spend. She’ll buy herself shoes, jewelry, makeup and to some extent clothes (more when she needs it), but will not invest in personal care at all!

      So my point is, you may take her shopping or get a gift card, but she may never use the gift card or wear the clothes. You can try to look for comfortable nice casual clothes to replace the sweatsuits though, maybe she’ll be more receptive to that.

    3. I recently promised to take my mom on a shopping “spree” ($500 worth) at Nordstrom. We’re going to make a personal shopper appointment. She’s excited, and isn’t much into girly-girl things, including shopping. Maybe that would work as a Chirstmas gift?

    4. I would start by taking her to a really fun, special bra store where they do fittings and maybe let you bring champagne or something to make it a little party. Buy her two new bras. They really are the foundation to dressing and if everything is fitting right and supportive, all new clothes are going to look a lot better on her. Bonus if they are pretty and make her feel a little special and ready to put a little bit more effort into the parts the rest of the world sees.

    5. You don’t say anything about whether your mom wants to take more pride in her appearance. Is she self-conscious or depressed or overwhelmed? If not, then honestly it’s none of your business. It sounds like she does take care of herself, just isn’t a clotheshorse or girly girl. It kind of sounds from your post like you’re embarrassed of her clothes. If your mother’s tracksuits are all that embarrasses you, you have it pretty good, and there’s no need to get involved!

      I apologize if that sounds harsh or if I’m misreading your post, but that just my two cents.

      1. So very much this! Unless your mom tried to make growing-up-you into her version of what you should look like, in which case all bets are off and have at it.

      2. I don’t agree. My mom doesn’t pay attention to her appearance at all, but I’ve taken her for makeover and spa days a few times and she has so much fun and says she loves feeling so girly. And then she goes back to her ponytail and frumpy outfits, and breaks out the nice new clothes for “special occasions.” Someone doesn’t have to be actively interested in their appearance in order to enjoy a makeover.

        My mom’s a nurse, too, and I think it’s pretty common for nurses to not pay a lot of attention to themselves. But usually it’s a nice treat for them to get a day as the center of attention.

      3. I actually was going to say something to this effect also. I don’t think it would be bad to take her shopping as a Christmas present or something like that, especially if she is open to it, but I don’t think it would be a good idea to push it or force her to change how she dresses if she is not receptive to your efforts. She’s your mom. It’s no better for you to force your views of fashion on her than for her to push hers on you. It may just be her attitude that she is old enough now that she doesn’t have to “try” any more on regular weekend outings.

        Has she always dressed this way on weekends or is it new?

    6. Is your mom my mom? Right down to the nurse part!

      Here’s what works for my mom, even though she still loves her comfy clothes & yoga pants way too much…. Cuter and, dare I say it, “more formal” lounge wear.

      A lot of stuff that you’d find in the Acacia catalog (acacialifestyle dot com). It’s all still a variation on lounge/yoga clothes, but it’s cuter and has more personality. I also find it helpful to go shopping with her (or, perhaps, rather that she finds it helpful) so I can strong arm her into buying something more dressy she might otherwise not get b/c it won’t get “a lot of wear.” For instance, last year I talked her into getting this really pretty eggplant colored velvet jacket (Elie Tahari). It’s totally loose and comfy so it won’t look out of place with her other clothes but it totally dresses up an outfit. Also scarves. Same principle.

      Anyway, you can’t force your mom to dress a certain way any more than you’d want your mom to force you to dress a certain way, but you can make sure that she’s not just avoiding trendier styles because she’s in a rut or doesn’t know what to get. But if she likes her sweats, maybe you could just help her upgrade that comfy casual look. But please no skirts with rubber bands ;)

    7. My mom is similar, but she wears mom jeans and loose-fitting t-shirts. I think part of her hangup is that she doesn’t think it’s worth it to spend money on nice casual clothes when she works 5 days a week and then has to do household work during a lot of her free time. You don’t mention your parents financial situation, but it’s not like my mom can’t afford to treat herself. She’s just very practical and thinks her money could be used better in other places, like saving for travel. Maybe your mom is similar?

      If that’s the case, I think if you or a personal shopper take the time to show her how a few nice pieces can form the base for a lot of different outfits at varying levels of dressed-up, it might convince her that it’s a worthwhile expense.

    8. I basically buy my mom a whole new season of clothing every Christmas and her birthday (June.) She HATES shopping so we don’t go together. I know her sizes and just pick out what I think will work for her.

      I go for mostly top-half items, as I know she has a style of pants that she buys at Kohl’s that fit her well and she loves. Also, she loves getting the Kohl’s coupons and heading down to the B&M store to buy them. But other than that, she does not like to spend time picking out 100+ things and trying them on and winnowing it down to the 5-10 things she’ll buy. That’s fun for me, but torture for her, and I understand that we’re different.

      So I actually have sort of a personal shopper relationship with a sales associate at Macy’s. When she sees me, she says, “are we buying for Sharon today?” (Sharon is my mom’s name – the SA has never met her!)

      (what a good SA, by the way, if any SAs are reading. She is guaranteed a $300+ sale just for remembering my mom’s name!)

      The SA and I go through blouses and cardigans and tees and mix and match and talk about which colors go with which pants (black, khaki, navy, gray) and then I buy them, put them in a big box and give them to Mom for Christmas or her birthday.

      I know she loves them because I can’t recall a time I’ve seen her recently that she hasn’t been wearing something I bought for her.

    9. As the recipient of much efforts in my youth on improving my appearance :-), I have a bit of advice.
      First, why does it bother you? If you’re ashamed of how she’s only a nurse, or afraid you’ll run into some acquaintances with your indifferently-dressed mother, you’d do better to get some sweatpants yourself and visit her wearing them, just to get the hang of it.
      Then, if you have better motivation than that, I’d recommend presents. Works much better than advice, because they’re there, at least to be tried when the laundry gets pressing. BUT the presents must be just a step up from what she usually wears (at least as first). Buy her a formal suit and you can be sure that it’ll be gracing only the bottom of her closet drawers. I had some success with my own mother with things like comfy corduroy pants, more interestingly designed knit shirts, really warm jackets, stuff like that. You can also try a nice scarf in a color that suits her. Anyway, she sounds like a woman who values her comfort, be sure not to stray from that. Basically, AIMS’s advice is excellent.
      She may also be depressed or unhappy. If that’s the case, more presence and attention from you might be just the ticket.

    10. I also am wondering why this bothers you, and why you assume that wearing sweatpants on the weekends == not taking pride in her appearance. Maybe she just wants to be comfortable on the weekend after spending much of the week on her feet (nurse). Has she made comments to you about not having enough time to buy clothes? Honestly, with only this info to go on, it sounds like you’re embarassed of her and want to change her, for YOURSELF, not for her.

  7. I need help dressing for my job – or more specifically, the part of my job I’m asked to do now. I am in an administrative capacity at a law firm, and hope to move up eventually. I’ve been asked to take the lead on a big “filing’ project – basically, re organizing a ton of files. It’s physically demanding work, and I frequently get very sweaty and tired. I’ve been told I can wear sneakers for that parto fthe day, but I can only devote about 2 hours a day to that – the rest of my day is my very normal, desk job, where I work at a “big law” firm and am expected to dress business professional (not quite suit, but pretty conservative). Any suggestions for clothes that transition well, WASH well (i cant afford dry cleaning things, especially when it’s guaranteed I WILL get sweaty lifting heavy boxes and climbing file cabinets.)

    Thanks!!!!

    1. I’m an administrative assistant too, and I feel your pain. If I were you I would wear slacks on filing days, as well as a shirt that doesn’t need to tuck in, as that would just come untucked while you are moving things around. Perhaps a sweater twin set might work, as you could take off the cardigan when you got too warm, but with the cardi and regular office shoes back on you would look perfectly put together. Landsend and J Crew have them, and they come in washable materials.

    2. Would your office be amenable to you organizing your schedule so that your last 2 hours of each workday were devoted to this project? That way, you could change into sneakers and a still-professional, but machine washable and more comfortable top and pants for those last 2 hours, then head home.

    3. Layers are your friend. Wear blazers or nice cardigans when you are at your desk, then take them off when you are doing your sweaty filing projects. Then the tops you wear underneath would then need to be work-appropriate in terms of sleeve-length and cleavage (think about whether the neckline droops when you bend over to pick up a file). You can also take off / put back on accessories for the 2 hours they might interfere with your work.

      In my experience with these sorts of projects, pants are better than skirts. I don’t like Express in general, but their Editor pants look nice and go through the wash very well (and don’t need to be ironed afterwards). Just be careful not to buy a size too tight as they can be form-fitting.

    4. I had a similar filing/ reorganization project several years ago, and I remember wearing button-front shirts and blazers, then removing the blazer for the filing. Having a cotton undershirt and shirt meant that sweat was absorbed fairly well, and the blazer covered up the shirt if it looked a little worse for the wear. I second the comments below that you should wear pants on filing days and try to arrange your day so that you file towards the end.

      I’m assuming you can be seen and don’t want to go sleeveless – but if you’re in a file room where you’re not seen, I would also consider changing into casual-but-not-workout clothes like khakis and a fitted cotton shirt.

    5. I would say to wear black or gray pants with a slightly stretchy fabric, like the Gap “Perfect” trousers, a t-shirt type of shell (I like the long-sleeved tees from Loft), and a blazer that you leave at your desk when you go file. Everything machine washable in case you get dusty. For shoes, I have a pair of Puma ballet flats that feel like sneakers but look decent; Puma have a bunch of different styles if you look on their website. You could also go with a comfort dress brand like Dansko or Clarks.

      1. Oh, and if you end up needing to dry clean things, ask if you can expense the dry cleaning. Firm policies vary, but it seems like a very reasonable request.

  8. I am an in house atty and I am paid VERY little as compared to other in house persons at companies of similar size/revenue. Also, some of the “conditions” of my work place aren’t so great. There’s been some “minor” sexual harassment from my boss but I have no one to report to. There’s no HR. I’m the only atty and my boss is the CEO.

    I’ve been looking for a new position and interviewed today at a larger company (close to 1,000 employees – over $500m in revenue) in a different industry. It would be a big learning curve but that’s not something that worries me. I’ve just heard some not great things about the company and the online chatter about it is similar. While I know I’m getting ahead of myself, I am trying to figure out what I would do if offered the job (the interview went great btw).

    So here’s my pro/con list – what are beehive’s thoughts??

    Pros:
    30-40% salary increase
    401k + match (currently neither)
    gym in building (free – but nothing fancy)
    jeans fridays
    company is very involved in charitable community
    GREAT CEO
    Growing company
    Good industry
    Larger law dept
    get to work on large deals

    Cons:
    Very regimented schedule 8-5 no flexibility
    longer commute (extra 20 min to equal about 40 min)
    shared office space (have own big office now)
    Still not quite at the salary I’d really hope to make but close
    NO INTERNET at the office (!!!!)

    1. Are the “not so great things” the ones you’ve listed in the Cons column? If so, I would absolutely get away from the sexual harassment with no one to report it to.

    2. Surfing Corporette aside, how in the world do they get any business done without the internet?

      1. My thoughts exactly – I use the internet all. the. time. for work related stuff. Googling clients’ addresses/phone numbers if they don’t use auto signatures (pet peeve), looking up the definition to an industry term I haven’t heard before, using PLC for precedents/articles etc etc.

        I can understand if certain sites are blocked, but no internet at all sounds counter-productive for a large organisation. All that aside, I would question why they don’t have it – is it a cost thing (in which case it could indigate stinginess when it comes to raises) or a productivity thing (in which case it could indicate that they don’t trust their employees to be grown ups and get their work done, which the rigid 8-5 thing also is indicative of).

        The cons in themselves are probably not dealbreakers in themselves, but I would think about what they are symptomatic of.

        In any event, the sexual harassment point means you need to get out. Now. It’s not ok.

        As for longer commute – maybe not so bad if your hours are better.

        1. I used to work at a marketing agency where the internet was blocked unless you were a VP or had special temporary privileges. It was absurd! Lots of times we couldn’t even get to client websites. When I finally got unfettered access, I gave my password to a ton of colleagues. The head of IT discovered this on my last day on the job and I thought he was going to have a heart attack. He said to me, totally shocked: “WHY would you DO such a thing?!?” I’m thinking, “Dude, we need to check our bank balances/the weather/the train schedule/blah blah blah.”

          Looking back, I was much more productive during the workday though!

        2. The prosecutors at the Miami-Dade State Attorneys Office have to get permission to go on the internet to conduct any kind of research. That just kills me. They are trusted to decide which humans should go to prison but can’t be trusted to not to abuse the web?

    3. Take the job. The “minor sexual harassment” from your boss is alarming and sounds like a situation that could get a lot worse if you don’t leave. The Cons that you listed appear pretty minor compared to the pros. A lot of private employers officially have regimented schedules, but in practice have more flexibility, depending on the supervisor. You would probably get used to the commute very quickly. Use your smartphone for internet during the day. You can try to negotiate a raise after you are there for a while. Sharing an office can be a pain. I did it for a year with a female attorney who kept her entire career shoe wardrobe under her desk, and it made our small office smell like shoes. But the pros outweight the cons here.

      1. Totally second Ann’s advice.
        There is no such thing as minor sexual harrassment. You never know when it’s going to tip over into intolerable.

    4. Go for the new job!! it’s a bigger company, it’s growing, it’s more money, it’s better work, more experiences, more opportunity … it will take you more places.

      40 minutes a day will not kill you, nor will a shared office, and an 8-5 schedule is pretty good hours in my book.

      and definitely, get away from these strange sexual harassment issues!

      1. … and btw, if it’s truly $500M in revenue and growing in a good industry, they’ll get that internet problem fixed up pretty soon. unless you’re saying, it’s just no personal web surfing at the office … which sucks, but is NOT a reason to turn down the job. leave work at 5 pm and surf on your own time.

        1. Thanks all!

          They do have email so I think it’s “outside internet” that’s blocked. I haven’t asked about that yet.

          One of the other issues that I’ve found in my research of the company is the retention rate – now it’s mostly on the sales/tech side that I’ve heard about. The turnover there is high but I flat out asked about the negative comments online today and they said it’s mostly those disgruntled employees who weren’t right for the job. The atty turnover isn’t so bad. Two have been there 5 years+. The GC used to be their outside and he has some great insight into the dept so I felt good with his answers.

          That said… I think you ladies are such a huge help… I’ve been having a hard time weighing everything. There’s still at least one more round of interviews but I’m fairly confident that they’ll give me an offer (knock on wood). I’ll give you all an update as things progress – and thanks again for your thoughts (keep em coming if you didn’t post yet!)

          1. Don’t quote me on this, but I think you’d find that turnover is high on many sales jobs. I think its quite common for people to start in sales and just find out they aren’t very good at it. Or to switch sales positions and find out they can’t sell the new thing.

            In addition, most places are very strict with sales people about goals and if they don’t hit them, they’re out. Its not the nicest thing in the world and it would lead to high turn over.

    6. How strict is the no internet? Obviously they have email… and as others mentioned you need the internet for information, e.g. who uses a phone book?

      When I first started my job I wouldn’t fool around on the internet, and now when I do it’s usually this website, msn/other news, or if I really need to check a sale or look for an airline/hotel. I don’t waste gobs of time shopping online and facebook, ebay etc are all blocked anyway.

      So, would you be able to do that sort of internet stuff on a personal device when you want a break?

      I don’t know what schedule you’re used to but 8-5 isn’t bad. And if you high up, I’m sure you’ll have more flexibility, and be able to slip out for appointments etc. Where I work my boss generally needs to be there during business hours to resolve issues, but slips out for a few hours/comes in late/leaves early on occasion.

  9. Do any of you ladies have advice on how to deal with emotional abuse between one’s parents?

    My dad has been blaming my mom for his general unhappiness plus whatever else he perceives to go wrong in his life for the longest part of their marriage – at least 25 years or so. He has severe migraines (he’ll admit to that), plus what the rest of the family believes to be depression with some manic elements to it. Times when he works extremely hard, is enthusiastic about everything, makes idealistic plans for the future etc. alternate with times when he can’t go to work, hardly leaves his room, refuses to talk to people and has migraines. Despite his obvious misery, he refuses to get treatment, gets offended (and headaches) when someone talks to him about this, and claims to be working on it on his own, so we should trust him and leave him alone.

    None of this would be so bad if he didn’t take out his moods on my mom. She is one of the strongest and most loving people I know, and yet my dad can hurt her so much with his snide remarks and accusations. He is really good with words, sharp and quick witted – which I admire in different settings – but this also means that he easily dominates a discussion, can twist one’s words, and makes her feel powerless. This happens both in private and (increasingly so) in front of other people. My mom clearly suffers, but she still resists the idea of getting a divorce. She claims that after a couple of days it usually doesn’t hurt so much anymore, and that she’s worried about my dad harming himself if she ever left him.

    I hate seeing my mom suffer, but I don’t know what to do. I try to be there for her, but I live too far away for regular visits, so we usually just talk on the phone. Also, I feel like just being supportive is not enough. Talking to my dad, however, just makes the situation worse: He will get extremely upset, claim that nobody understands him, and recede to his room with migraines for the next 3-5 days.

    My siblings are in college and have moved out, but we’ll all be home for the holidays. Any words of wisdom from the hive mind how to a) put and end to dad berating mom in front of us when we’re visiting and b) help our mom to put an end to or get out of this abuse?

    1. That is a hard situation. I experienced this to a lesser degree growing up.

      I don’t have any advice, but what seemed to help a little was when the balance of power shifted. My Mom got a job, started making her own money, and (I think) having her own money to spend made her feel different. She became more assertive and stuck up for herself. He doesn’t behave that way to her now. Now she bosses him around. That may be due to his health problems causing him to be more dependent on her as well, but the situation between them has really improved over the years.

      Can your Mom get a part-time job? If it was in a good place, that could help her self-esteem, and give her some confidence–as well as someplace to go/somewhere to look forward to going, and new friends.

      If not, volunteering is great as well. My Mom volunteers at a local hospital 1-day a week, and she loves it. Has made tons of friends and developed interests in things outside the home.

      1. This is a good point, but my mom already has a full time job, which she loves, and very nice colleagues. And while she makes way less money than my dad, it would be enough to live on her own. I’m afraid that the “stigma” of being a divorced woman in her fifties (as opposed to the married, churchgoing mother and city employee) is another reason she doesn’t want to consider a divorce.

    2. No wise words, unfortunately, but I’m sorry you’re dealing with such a tough situation. :(

    3. My father also berates or says rude things to people in groups. Telling him he’s being rude usually goes as follows:

      Me: That was rude.
      Him: Stop picking on me! You’re always picking on me. *pouts / sulks*
      Me: Are you actually pouting? How old are you?
      Him: *sheepish look*

      Or he’ll insist that he wasn’t rude, and you’re just being irrational.

      Sig. O. and I have decided to implement a new system this year. When he’s rude, I’m going to ask to speak with him privately. I’m going to tell him that this rude/thoughtless behavior to others is the main reason he doesn’t see me very often. And I’m going to make clear, similar to what one commenter wrote above, that he can either continue with the behavior or spend time with me but not both. I’d suggest trying something similar with your father. It is really hard, though, especially if you’re dealing with a seasoned manipulator (my father) or someone who has mental health issues (sounds like yours).

      As for your mom, that’s a tough one. Remember she’s a victim of abuse, and while some people find the strength and courage to leave their abusers, many do not.

    4. Encourage your mom to seek counseling. Remind her often that you love her and want her to be happy, whatever that path takes.

      As far as dealing with your dad goes, please call a domestic-abuse hotline and ask for guidance. I’m sure the last thing you want is for him to take it all out on her later, after you’ve all left. I know there’s a generally-accepted protocol for this type of thing, but can’t remember offhand what it is.

      1. Thanks, all! So far, my mom has chosen not to seek counseling (my siblings and I have suggested it multiple times already to no avail), but I will call a domestic-abuse hotline myself. It’s taken me a long time to call what is happening at home “abuse”, so this idea never occured to me…

      2. Would your mom consider starting out with family counseling, e.g., you (siblings) coming with her? Pitch it as the whole family getting strategies on how to deal with your dad. Because really, it probably would help all of you.

    5. I don’t have a very good track record of success in this field.
      But I’ve had better luck recently because I think the primary tactic of abusers is isolation. So you need to be really there for your mom, and make it clear she won’t be lonely if she decides to take her life back, that she’ll always have you. And that the worst loneliness comes from being only physically with someone who doesn’t respect you or value your company. Then get her some books from other women in this kind of situation, let her see that she’s not alone, let her think about how this dynamic is nothing unusual or unknown, and what her options might be.
      Good luck! And try not to take the bad stuff on yourself, or to drift into a similar relationship (as you’re much at risk..).

  10. I am looking for a chocolate brown velvet dress, long sleeve, scoop or boat neck, knee length, to wear with boots for this year’s xmas party. Anyone seen anything like this around?

    3. No suggestions, but that sounds just lovely! What color are the boots, also chocolate brown? Do you have jewelry in mind to wear? I love hearing about holiday party clothes.

      1. Thank you. But I can’t find the dress I have in mind. I was thinking chocolate brown boots, and maybe a silk scarf.

    4. They have something similar at Coldwater Creek I think, but I’m not sure about brown.

  11. Wool tights or silk long-johns?

    I’m currently wearing a pair of cashmere/silk-blend leggings underneath my trousers. I didn’t take good care of them initially, so now they’re all badly pilled. But! They keep me warm, plus no one sees them anyway underneath my pants.

    Now, I’m thinking of purchasing a pair of wool tights from Wolford to replace my pilled leggings. I own a pair of their thigh-high stockings, and since they’ve held up beautifully thus far, I’m naturally inclined to continue purchasing their leg wear.

    The thing is, I know Kat highly recommends silk long-johns, so now I’m debating whether I should go with my original idea of wool tights, or Kat’s silk long-johns?

    Principally, I want a base layer that will keep me warm. (I detest the cold.) I initially shied away from the idea of silk long-johns, because I live in a cold house, and the thought of slipping cold silk on in the morning gives me the shivers, literally. (Something about the heat-conducting properties of silk …) Also, I like my base layer to be “skin-tight”, and not being very familiar with silk long-johns, all of the ones I’ve seen appear to be rather loose.

    However, if I get enough votes telling me that silk is a much warmer base layer than wool, then I may go with the silk long-johns instead. Thoughts/advice? TIA!

    1. Silk is great. It should not be loose; it should fit you like a second skin (I’m not sure what you’ve been looking at – maybe sizes that are too big for you). I recommend WinterSilks as a good starter brand.

    2. so this isn’t an answer to your ? at all – but have you considered something more like running tights under your pants? I’m a runner, and I typically wear thin running tights under my dress pants on REALLY cold days. They are great because they are warm from the get-go, breathe well, are washable, fit very tight and don’t show under clothes… under armor is a great brand, as is Craft (very pricey but worth it)…Athleta also has some stuff. for me, this makes the most sense bc it saves me money bc clothes can do double duty! Sorry I can’t really answer your ?, but just thought the athletic wear route might be a good way to go!

    3. I love silk. My husband is in the military and he always had great cold weather gear and he picked me out some from REI one year and I was hooked. I just bought some from Lands End that seem good too. They seem to run big so keep that in mind if you go with LE. I have 4 pairs now and wear them almost everyday during the winter.

    4. I don’t have silk longjohns, but I think the argument for them is less that they’re warmer than wool, and more that they’re thinner and lighter. Afterall, if you were cold, would you warm up more in a wool sweater or a silk blouse? If you want maximum warmness, I think wool is still the way to go. I’m currently eyeing the Mountain Equipment Co-op lightweight merino longjohns myself.

    5. Stick the silk long johns under the covers in your warm bed that you just got out of while you go shower. That’ll take most of the chill off, though it takes a while (15+ minutes) for them to really warm up.

    6. i love smartwool long johns. I think they are a lot warmer than silk, and last longer, and even though my skin is really sensitive, it is not itchy or uncomfortable at all.

    1. Thank you so much! I have been waiting for exactly that to try The Skirt. Done and done.

      1. I went to Nordstroms for the first time today. The Halogen line seemed no better than Le Suit or Kasper. Now the Classics line was beautiful but the prices were high. How does the Classics line run size-wise?

        1. I’d say similar to BR. However, I only have 1 pair of pants & 1 sheath dress from the Classiques line (both same as my typical BR size), so I am not super familiar with their sizing.

        2. I find Classiques to be sized the same as BR but generally for more curves (ie, I have to size up and get BR tailored, but Classiques fits me off the rack.). Great quality, too.

  13. Haircut update: I wrote in the last weekend open thread asking for advice about getting my shoulder-lenth hair cut short. I bit the bullet and got a really nice chin-length bob with some layers. It looks fantastic and I have gotten so many compliments! I’ve worn my hair down every day this week and it looks so much more polished then when I used to put it up in a bun. Feeling good and wondering what took me so long. Thank you to everyone who wrote in last week to encourage me to do it.

    1. That’s good to hear! I’m one of the commenters who wrote in with some encouragement during the weekend thread (had the cut before, thought it was great), and I’m about to get pretty much the same cut tomorrow. So, given the timing, I credit you with the idea for the bob!

    3. Good to hear! The first thing I thought when I saw my hair after I cut it from shoulder-length to pixie-length was “I should have done this years ago”.

    4. ahh yes, I feel so much more like myself with a bob, and I’ll wear it down every day. Once it’s long enough to put up, I end up putting it up almost every day for work (but wear it down socially.) I inevitably always grow my hair out (just got my first trim to do so), so have more options, and attempt to attract more men.

  14. Random, random comment: Thank you to whoever posted several weeks ago about wanting skinny red jeans/cords! I got a pair from Eddie Bauer on a whim, and they were backordered so didn’t arrive until this week. As it happens, that’s perfect timing — this has been a really crappy week, and they make me ridiculously happy!

  15. So hating my job today. Tired of confrontational opposing counsel, billable hours, office politics. Any ideas for alternative legal careers? I have a litigation background, but I’m sick of confrontation and disputes. Government jobs for lawyers are few and far between in my area, I have no idea how to even go about breaking into non-profits, I have no real hobbies that I could turn into a second career. Life is sucking today. How much does flower shop clerk pay? Heck, I don’t have the right experience for that.

    1. Dude. Was so there with you about a year ago. I was on a 6 a.m. flight to Oklahoma City for a deposition (that lasted all of an hour), and I looked out the window and saw the guys who work outside on the ground– you know, the guys with the ear muffs and orange stick things– and I thought, “That job doesn’t seem like it would be that bad.” No advice, just sympathy. Sometimes being a lawyer really sucks.

      1. I met an ex-lawyer a few months ago who quit to be a salesman for a roofing company. That might be fun. We get lots of hail here, lots of people needing roofs all the time. How hard could it be?

        1. That’s so funny that you say that. My S/O owns a company that hires and trains salesman for roofing companies in hail-damaged areas. You’re right – it’s ridiculously easy and the money is even more ridiculous. These guys work a few months and make six figures. Long days during those 4-6 months, but nothing an associate attorney isn’t used to.
          The one caveat is that it takes a certain personality. Either they have it or they don’t.

        2. I read an article the other day that referred to someone who had a job (not legal) in “research.” What is that? I love research! How do you even get a job just researching things?

          1. It’s probably product development research for a company, although it could be market research. Lots of people with science degrees have research jobs.

            Without disclosing too much, I work as a research attorney, and it’s pretty awesome. There are lots of research attorney jobs out there.

          2. Heh, I’m the opposite; I want a lawyer job where you just write things and other people have to do all the looking up and research. Maybe we could split a job.

          3. Trust me, the grass ain’t any greener over here in scientific research (ie. inventing stuff for a company, or figuring out how stuff works, or general intellectual property generation), and I hear development (product development, process design) ain’t a piece of cake either.

            Here’s my grass-is-greener plan: I would be a wedding planner while writing romance novels at night. My engineering-honed organizational abilities & assertiveness would make the “planning” a piece of cake, and the crazy clients would inspire my fiction.

    2. I dont know what type of law you practice, but you can work in a contracts/purchasing department for a company in any line of business. You can go out on your own, or do per diem work for a number of attorneys, even if it’s just legal research and writing you do in your pajamas (my dad is a solo who hasn’t written a brief in probably 20 years, and he pays good money to have people do it for him).

      You can teach at a community college. My brother took crim and con and other CJ classes at a community college and knows way more about that stuff than I ever learned at my top tier law school (at least black letter stuff) and his prof’s were current/former attorneys. I have an aunt that teaches at community college and loves the gig.

      If you know about tax/estate stuff, you can be a tax/estate adviser. If you know about real estate work for a title company.

      1. I got so so burnt out on litigation too (indigent federal criminal defense which was a great job) and after much searching, switched to doing pr for a law firm. All big firms have marketing depts and are looking for people w/ law backgrounds to do communications or business development. And I feel better that my law background has not gone to waste (just paid off my law school student loans a few years ago). Good luck.

    3. Anon, this is where a good career coach (or a DIY method) would be useful. There are other paths – contract attorney, in-house, escrow officer, professor, writer, bond underwriter. The key is to start doing some research, soul-searching and find a couple potential tracks. Then start calling your law-school/grad-school classmates, networking contacts, friends-of-friends and find out what’s out there. The key is to be motivated and plan your attack, which is hard to do if you’re feeling down. But once you start, you may get energized.

      If you’re in a larger market, you should be able to find a career coach who specializes in lawyers.

      Here’s an article that I found interesting.
      http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/pf/1106/gallery.career_reinvention_stories.fortune/4.html

      Good luck!

    4. I hear ya. When I was on the bus to work and started wishing for a minor accident and injury to get out of work that day, I knew I needed a change. I was able to use my litigation background to transfer into claims at an insurance company. You’ll need to work on the more complex claims, but the change has been wonderful!

      1. This. I pray for a bus accident most days so I can avoid my hellacious litigaiton gig.

      2. Beware! I was hit by a truck on the way to work recently. Earlier that day, I remember thinking about how I was not in the mood to go to work and ignored the small voice telling me to use bike lights.

    5. As someone trying to get into litigation, can I ask what makes all of you hate it? Did you always want to litigate, or just fall into it? Did you enjoy Trial Ad/Moot court?

      1. If I had to guess — though I am not them — they discovered that litigation for junior associates has almost nothign to do with Trial Ad and Moot court. Instead it involves extremely long hours, tedious doc review, and researching legal points that either (a) don’t make it in the brief or (b) are so obscure they’re impossible to find.

        Said as someone who enjoys my lit job — but if you expect it to be like your moot court class, it probably won’t be for about 10 years.

        1. Thanks! So if I wanted to litigate would you say a small firm would be more rewarding experience than a midsize firm?

          1. Yes, you will most likely get into the courtroom sooner at a small firm. Of course, you’ll probably get more training in a slightly larger firm, but some people learn best by doing.

          2. I’d say if getting into the courtroom quickly is one of your main goals, government is probably the way to go. I know in my hometown, the public defender is known as a great place to get legal training, so people often go there 2-3 years and then move onto the private sector.

            I work in a smaller government agency and do administrative litigation. It’s a good way to get experience, but you really do have to be very self-sufficient. There’s not much training and we create new hearing types and procedures several times a year. Each attorney has his/her own region to cover and if we need help we just call each other up to ask for advice. I really do like litigating, but the reality of it is that it’s a lot of waiting around for something to happen and very little courtroom time. I may have several hearings scheduled at around the same time, but they usually get continued or settled.

          3. Probably, but not all small firms (or gov agencies) are created equal. I would think about what you really want or don’t want in a job, like what makes you content at work. I mean qualities of the job, not necessarily subject areas.

            For me, I absolutely hate being bored and I don’t like feeling that my work is useless, not for any goal I think is worthwhile. I also have issues with authority. So I need something that keeps me busy and interested (no watching the clock), work that I feel is important in some small way, and some degree of autonomy and/or a boss I respect. This could be litigation or not, depending on the employer. I summered in the lit dept of a large law firm and absolutely hated it, because I felt that I was expected to kiss the asses of every senior associate or partner in a very obsequious way, the work was often the trifecta of tedious, boring, and virtually pointless (research every angle of an issue that may never come up in a case, write memo to file about it). Not a good fit for me, which is not to say there aren’t positives about it.

            But my litigation job now for a local government agency keeps me busy and interested. I feel the work is important, though certainly not world changing or anything, and I work in a small department (5-9 attys) with a really wonderful boss who is more approachable mentor than authoritarian dictator.

            The point of this very long response is just to say, you have think about what you want out of a job besides just “litigation.” That will help you predict whether you will be happy or miserable in different work environments. There is no universally perfect litigation job.

      2. For me, it’s mostly the other lawyers I have to deal with. I hate dealing with a$$holes, and there seem to be more and more of them. No professional courtesy, you can’t trust opposing counsel at their word anymore, it’s a slash and burn mentality that I find it difficult to deal with. But I didn’t really want to litigate, because I hate confrontation, I like to research and write. My current job was actually supposed to be primarily brief writing, but it’s morphed into a lot more.

      3. I’ve been in litigation for over 15 years, and have periods of burnout sometimes. For me, it’s case-specific, as I love litigation in general. But sometimes I’ll get sick of a particular opposing counsel, a mean judge, a sucky travel location, or whatever discovery fight I might be in. After this many years in litigation, though, I know that every case ends eventually, and I just need to slog through the rough patches to get to the motion, mediation, or trial. There have been times I felt like quitting, and then I remember, hey, I felt like that in x case a few years ago, too. So maybe moving on is right for you, but for me, it was best to just hang in there and keep trying to learn from my experiences. I guess it depends on how much you like litigation in general. It’s not right for everybody.

    6. Funny, I just had a conversation with friends about this yesterday. Every somewhat low-stress job I’ve ever had was so boring that I wanted to gouge my eyes out and hated going to work. Even my first professional job was insanely boring and I felt like a monkey could do it. I hated that job and dreaded Mondays. I do have to remind myself of that on the days that my current high-stress and lots of travel job gets difficult!

    7. If you’re interested in nonprofits, look at Idealist dot org, PSLawNet dot org, and if you’re interested in international development, DevEx dot com. To break in, I’d suggest than you begin volunteering in the field you’d eventually like a job in now, and look to make a career move after you have about a year of volunteer experience. That shows a track record of commitment to the cause, and you’ll have developed relevant skills.

      Having said that, nonprofits can be as big and bureaucratic as any law firm, and the hours aren’t much better. The moral satisfaction is great, though.

  16. First depo today… I think I did pretty well… so I think I’m going to pat myself on the back and say: Happy Friday everyone!

  17. We’ve had a few related things on the comments recently, and I have a question for the hive.

    A bit of background first – I’ve been single for a couple of years and, even though I enjoy it in principle, I haven’t even dated anyone in a very looooong time and I’m finding it all a bit odd.

    I found it much easier to meet people when I was in my early 20s and never considered this an issue, and there was always someone on the scene, but somehow the market has dried up a bit. Even the situations where I used to meet people are no longer fruitful. People don’t approach me anymore and if I approach them, it’s usually not with any success.

    I’m finding this quite interesting – not worried about it as such, just wonder if other people are experiencing the same thing as they get older. And yes, the only obvious factor I can think of is age – I’ve gotten older and the men I would be interested have also gotten older, so they may no longer approach women in the same way. And of course, the available pool of men in my age bracket has gotten smaller as they’ve all gotten married. And, I suppose since most of my friends are married/in long term serious relationships, so they don’t really want to socialise in ways which are conducive to meeting men. I’ve obviously already missed the college/law school window where most people I know met their other husbands/boyfriends.

    So I’m interesting in how people met their other halves and how old they were at the time? And for the single Corporettes – is it just me, or does it get harder when you get older?

    1. I think it’s harder in the sense that the pool is smaller. And my judgment is way better than it was 20 years ago, which effectively makes the pool even smaller. But I’m much more comfortable with myself now, have learned I love traveling and dining alone, have a long list of dealbreakers, and just don’t feel any pressure to pair up, which makes it way easier. I did have children with my XH and don’t want more, so I’m sure that’s part of the reason I’m able to take a “it’ll happen when it happens” approach – I’m not worried about aging eggs.

    2. I’m glad you posted this too. I dont’ know how old you are, but I’m 26, I didn’t meet anyone in college or law school, but had relationships with HS people after HS, college people after college ( and I always wonder why they didn’t approach me then when I was single and hated it!). My stance on kids is I could live a perfectly fulfilling life without ever having them. I’m not saying I’m never having kids, but I don’t feel the need to have that, so the eggs drying up isn’t an issue for me, but I would like to married in the relative future. I also don’t really want to live with someone/buy property together without the commitment of marriage, but even at 26 it’s like everyone’s coupled up already. I’ve tried online dating, but I never found anyone I clicked with. Not one of my friends have ever set me up (even though I introduce them to people). all they say is have no one for you. or when I complain about being single it’s “oh you’re so smart, funny, pretty blah blah blah you’ll find someone, just wait.” I tried activity clubs, joined a church etc. And I don’t have one night stands, but I’ll date someone for a few months and it just never goes anywhere. Someone posted a few days ago that relationships are like friendships, well I have great life long friendships and have no luck in relationships. I also have a lot of male friends. And at this point i my life, with all my girlfriends in relationships or married, my whole social calendar is pretty much male friends.

      1. to respond to myself and give an idea to others, the HS/college people I dated after HS/college started with a reconnect on facebook/myspace/aim. So if there was someone you were attracted to and friendly with in college/law school and they’re single send them a message to ask how they are. And you don’t have to be a facebook freak, but post witty status updates or pics from your vacation or any other activity of interest, you never know who might comment. Or post something for recommendations to do X in city Y. With my relationships that started this way my intent was not to start a relationship, but more that we talked online a bit, decided to hang out and it went from there. I guess it’s just like online dating, with the added benefit of it not being a stranger!

        1. Heh, this is quite funny because I have actually dated a number of people in this way, i.e. with people I knew in college and then reconnected with, but I’ve gone through all of those now ;-)

    3. I’ll agree with the others, the pool has dried up a bit (I’m 31). Plus, I’ve also gotten a lot pickier in terms of who I’ll even meet for coffee. My list of must-haves has changed from “millionaire with a British accent” to “self-sufficient, not an a*hole”.

      My latest email exchange with a potential date (he’s 36) was: Me: “It’s cool you like bike riding. I come from a biking family but I don’t bike because I can’t find a bike seat that fits.” Him: “I will only date a girl who enjoys the pain of long bike rides and I don’t think you can handle that kind of pain.”

      Oh well. At least I learned quickly that he was not long-term material. And I have another story.

      I actually have two 5-year plans at this point (which puts my at 36 years old). One for if I meet Mr. Right and have kids. The second is for if I don’t I have kids (and for which I have to start managing money now). I am ambivalent about which track I take (the second plan is pretty awesome!).

    4. I definitely think it gets harder as you get older. I’ve moved several times during my career, and that makes it more difficult as well – not only to meet a potential SO, but also to create a new circle of friends. I have not been successful with online dating (and have no interest in continuing to try that particular avenue), I am not planning to have children, but I would like to meet someone interesting!

    5. It definitely got harder for me. I’m 29, have been working full time for 5 years, and for the past 3 years or so I haven’t had the energy to go out anymore. Combine that with the fact that most of the guys I know are either gay or taken, and the fact that most of my friends seem to have zero interest or willingness in setting me up, the only “place” I meet guys is online. And that, frankly, is exhausting and feels like applying for a job.

    6. Not single, but for what it’s worth, my observation is that most people I know who aren’t hooked up after college/law school end up meeting their future sig. others at work, or some work-related event/organization. I guess that’s just where they spend the most time.

    7. Met my H at 35 on match,com. Definitely got harder to meet in “real life” as I got older, but lots of people online. I do live in a big city though, so that may help.

    8. I actually think it got easier as I got older. It’s all relative, of course. For background, I spent all of my 20s in big cities, and my options seemed limited to drinking alcohol and hooking up (and all the melodrama that entails). Nobody seemed terribly interested in meaningful conversation, and frankly, most people didn’t have a lot of unique life experiences that really distinguished them from one another. The other problem was me. I didn’t have a ton of self-confidence (the occasional drunk hookup didn’t help), I wasn’t really sure what I was looking for, and my idea of romance was probably based more on movies than on my actual values and plans and goals.

      Once I hit 30 or 31 things became a lot clearer in my mind regarding who I was and what I wanted. I’d gone through some significant life events (for better and worse) and felt more able to take control of the dating situation. Granted, the pool had shrunk somewhat, but I still managed to have plenty of dates – good, mediocre, and dismal! – and actually enjoyed the process of talking to new people. Eventually I met my husband online. I was 32 at the time.

      So perhaps demographics go against you, but I found that the other factors tipped the scale back in my favor.

      Good luck to you. If you’re worried about your eggs – take heart. Motherhood, children, and families come about in all kinds of ways, and I don’t think any of them lack for love or joy simply because they began in less traditional circumstances.

    9. Also not single but have many friends that are and I have been there with them through many ups and downs. That said, these are their experiences, not mine, so take with a grain of salt.

      – The guys your age who have either never been married or are freshly divorced are looking for women younger than you. I did not believe this when three or four of my friends said it but it is the case. You may need to look for men older or younger than yourself by about 5-10 years to have better luck. Even if you are hot for your age, among 30-40 year-old men there is warped status in dating younger women. Especially beware of this with never-married men.

      – If you have been excluding men with kids (custodial or non-custodial) that is going to make it difficult. I have one friend who swore she would never get serious about a man with kids but is now happily married to a man who has two from a previous relationship. I think this is true for men too, but the closer you get to 40, the less chance there is that you will meet someone who does not have elements of their past following them around. The whole idea that you will meet someone and be their first marriage, first mother of their child, first person they buy a house with, etc. plummets as you approach 45 or even 40.

      – You say your current friends aren’t really up for socializing in ways that would help you meet someone – so you may need to make some new friends, or at least take up an activity that is more conducive to meeting people. Most major cities have all kinds of meetups and other informal group meetings. Think about fun, free activities – book readings, free small-scale music events, hiking groups, etc.

      – If you’re approaching men and not getting a good response, I don’t mean to be rude, but you may be approaching men who are (or consider themselves to be) “above” your own attractiveness level. It’s not happy to think about but it is something to consider. A couple of my single male friends told me they do this when approaching women, and I was appalled by it at first, but it makes sense and you could make it work for you: instead of just approaching one type of man, try approaching different types and seeing what kind of response you get. That means approaching men who are not “your type,” older or younger than you would normally approach, considerably less attractive than you think you “deserve,” etc. It may not be you, it may be who you’re targeting. There are probably men out there that would be happy to be approached by you, you just have to find them.

      Good luck!

  18. Okay ladies, I posted earlier in the week, but I’d like to get some feedback on a specific situation:

    I’m a 2008 law grad, so 3rd/4th year associate status. I have a contract position at a BigLaw firm on one of the coasts, in the transactional department. I’m making excellent money (about twice what I was making at my old firm as a full associate, and close to BigLaw scale). I have had great feedback re: my work, and positive interractions with everyone at the firm. I like it, I’d like to staypermanently as a staff attorney or associate, and I was led to believe that it was certainly a possibility.

    About three months ago, it was announced that the firm was looking for a 1-3 year transactional associate and a 4-6 year transactional associate. I e-mailed my supervisor, expressing my interest, and asking if (1) I’d be overstepping my boundaries if I asked to be considered, and (2) If I would in fact be considered for such a position based on my credentials and work thus far. My supervisor told me that the positions were misadvertised and were actually contract positions; that my work was great; all the contract attorneys are in the running to be permanent (there’s about 4 of us), etc.

    Fast forward to this week: I find out from poking around a bit on the firm website that the positions are in fact full-blown associate positions, and they’ve already hired for one of the positions.

    I’m confused, and a bit irritated. I don’t know where I stand anymore. I’d like to be here for the long haul, but I’m not sure that’s in the cards now, and I am making too much money to just quit. What I’m doing isn’t rocket science, and I’m making too much money to just quit, particularly when there’s no actual billable requirement attached to the position.

    I guess I am wondering (1) what people would do in my situation (2) if anyone has ever been in my position, what they have done, and (3) if you’ve been a supervisor in this sort of situation, what your motives are for acting or not acting in a certain manner.

    Thanks!

    1. Sorry for a couple of the repeat phrases, I’m still cranking away on a Friday evening, but I needed to get this off my chest! :)

    2. I can’t imagine a supervisor lying about something like that, is it possible your supervisor was misinformed?

    3. All I have to say is WATCH OUT!!!!! When you are a contractor, you employer ususally will squeeze every last drop of work out of you until they find whomever it is they consider to be a suitable permanent candidate. Your boss out and out lied to you. It is unlikely that he/she is misinformed about the open recs and hires for transactional attorney in this organization. Most if not all Biglaw enviornment are obsessed with Ivy League degrees, law review ect, and no matter how good your actual work is, they will turn up their nose at you if you do not meet these standards. I have been through this situation before. They will string you along until the open perm recs are filled, and those people have a few months to get up to speed. Then one day, you will come to your office, find that your badge dosen’t work and a burly security guy by your desk…. It won’t end well, so I suggest that you start discreetly looking for your new opportunity right now. Don’t confront your supervisor about his/her outright lie. Smile, do your job, collect your paycheck and work to make your next move on your terms.

      1. You have to know what big firms are about by now! Of course they’re leading you on and squeezing you for all they can. Either man up and call them on it and risk losing your current contract position, or deal with it until you find something to better. To be honest, you’re probably better off find a firm that’s a better fit for you where you’re appreciated and respected, even though it may take awhile and will probably be a pay cut. You probably got some awesome experience and maybe some good references. Don’t go kissing their @$$ for a crappy job that will make you miserable….use the experience and contacts to your advantage.

        1. Agree with both anon24 and San Jose. I watched a lot of people in your position who were told they were “in the running” for a perm job at their BigLaw contract jobs only to be let go as soon as the position was filled with a T3 person.

        2. AAAAARGH NO! I absolutely hate it when women give up on salary negotiations before they have even started!! No, she should not automatically resign herself to making less money! She should, in fact, leverage her big law experience into a similar if not higher salary, with the argument being that if she can cut if at XYZ law firm, imagine what she can do in the position currently on the table. Also, Temp to Perm, fell free to leverage any rapport you have developed at this big law firm. For instance, feel free to discretely contact any inhouse counsel that you have dealt with in your tranactional work (either the firm’s client or even better, the other sides outside counsel) and ask for any job leads. I agree with the other posters on this thread, these ungrateful jerks do not deserve you. However, as I mentioned earlier do not rock the boat, you are in a better position if you leave on your terms. As long as this firm has work for you, feel free to ride the gravy train and use them as they are using you.

          1. I’m not saying she should give up on negotiation, but it seems like she wants a full time gig and isn’t getting one at this current firm. She can apply to similar firms that pay what she’s making now by all means, but if current firm isn’t hiring her as permanent that likely, similar firms won’t. If you’re not in biglaw you’re not gonna make that salary, and it seems like she’s having trouble getting a perm position in biglaw (don’t know if it’s due to pedigree or what). However, she can prob get a good paying but now biglaw salary at a midsize firm, or make a large firm in a smaller city, that pays less due to geography.

          2. San Jose, anon24, and lyla, thank you for telling it like it is. :) I was worried that I was being overly sensitive or overreacting, but I’m glad you all are as suspicious as I am (and with good reason it seems)! I think for now I am going to focus on San Jose’s advice and enjoy this while it lasts, and learn as much as I possibly can. By the time the gig is up, I should have about 6 months living expenses saved, which should give me a few solid months to look for something more permanent (without panic creeping into the picture and clouding my judgment).

            Thank you for confirming that I am not a conspiracy theorist and these people kinda stink – just a little bit!

  19. If you send a baby gift to a boss, do you check to make sure it arrived or just assume it did and the ty card — whenever the sleep deprived parents get to it — will confirm? It shipped directly from the store (which is local to them but not to me and they can’t track/confirm – didn’t realize this mom and pop operation doesn’t use fedex etc). It’s been about 3 wks and the baby is only month now. Part of me thinks — what are the chances it didn’t get there, but should I ask? It was a fairly delicate/decorative gift, so I don’t want it traveling around more than necessary and breaking. I’m going to check in and say happy holidays and all in the next few weeks anyway, do I just ask or wait for them to bring it up, which they won’t if they didn’t get it.

    1. I would just assume they got it. Some people get very sensitive when they think you’re asking for or criticizing them for not writing a thank you card.

    2. A contrary opinion (because I sent chocolate to a friend for a birthday, decided to assume she got it, then finally asked about it, and apparently her neighbor had stolen it): you never know.

      That said. It’s probably been three crazy weeks for the new parents. I would wait until after the holidays – maybe send New Year’s greetings and say you hope the baby is doing well and enjoying the new [XX].

      1. Interesting — I asked the original question here — in your scenario if they respond after the holidays and say, no didn’t receive a package — what do I say? Should I just say ‘sorry to hear it — be on the look out for something in the next x days’ and just re-buy the same thing? It’s a boss so it’s a bit more of a delicate situation. I don’t see how I could just say ‘oh well, I sent you something, too bad’ or just think I’ll get them more for the next gift-giving occasion to compensate for this. You can do that with friends/fam. sometimes, but in a work situation I feel like the only time it’s ok to give a gift and not look strange is for weddings and babies.

        1. sorry, i didn’t see this until now. if you’re still reading …

          Hopefully the gift arrived and is acknowledged, one way or another. if they didn’t receive it, definitely reach out to the store and see if they can help – if nothing else, perhaps a refund is possible. So either you
          a) get a refund from the store if possible, and buy something else
          b) get no refund, but still buy something else
          c) remember it’s the thought that counts, and do nothing

          I don’t know your boss, but if it were me, i would be embarrassed to have a subordinate feel like they needed to get me extra gifts to make up for a delivery error. If you word it carefully (“I’m so sorry you didn’t receive it! Perhaps there was a delivery error – I’m checking with the store and will let you know”) I would imagine your boss will say something like “That’s OK, sorry to hear that but thanks for thinking of us!” etc. and you’ll be off the hook.

          If you really feel obligated to get a replacement gift – and you shouldn’t have to, in my opinion – I’d make it a simple [$50, or what have you] gift card Babys R’ Us or something like that.

          And in the future, I guess the lesson is – only ordering from places that offer delivery tracking :)

  20. Hi everyone! I know there have been several threads about moving to the bay area lately, but I’m adding one more! I will be transferring from the midwest to the San Jose office of my firm. I have some friends in San Fran but am trying to determine the best place to live in the south bay area. I will have clients all over the area so advice of live close to work doesn’t really apply. Do any of you bay area dwellers have any suggestions of neighborhoods or even apt complexes? Looking for a one bedroom apartment ideally, know that it will be a major cost increase from where I am now. I am looking for a safe area with stuff to do and comvienient shopping / grocery etc.

    2. Strong vote for walkable distance to downtown Mountain View. MV downtown is pretty sizeable and lively, but a lot cheaper than Palo Alto because the MV school district isn’t as good as the PA one. It’s still not cheap with all the Googlers though. Highest concentration of young urban professionals, but not in a bad way. And the area is very safe, as far as I know. If I moved to the South Bay, that’s where I’d live.

      Check Craigslist for apartments. That’s where I always find mine. However, don’t live within a couple blocks of Caltrain. You think it’s convenient to be so close… and then you realize that bloody suicide horn that the trains have to blast through every.single.intersection is really, really loud.

      Welcome to your new home!

    3. Welcome to the Bay Area! I would second the recommendation to live in Mountain View. Another option to consider is Redwood City. It has a small downtown but is actually in a very convenient location for getting to San Francisco and Palo Alto. Sunnyvale, between Mountain View and San Jose, is another good option. Closer to San Jose is Campbell, which is also pretty up-and-coming but is a little far south if you are going up to San Francisco frequently.

      I would avoid East Palo Alto, and East/Downtown San Jose. Outside of those, there are a few pockets of “bad areas” but it’s pretty obvious when you are in one. Personally, I’d try to avoid apartment complexes that take section 8 housing. Yes, it’s elitist and snobby. But I’ve never felt safe in those complexes anyway.

      1. East San Jose and downtown SJ are two entirely different beasts. We own a condo in downtown SJ and lived there for 4 years. Loved it enough to convert the condo to a rental while we are out of the area for a few years.

        Downtown SJ has theater, live music, great restaurants, comedy clubs, dance clubs, the Shark Tank, museums, public transportation, the court house, a university campus: in other words, it is a real city. Not quite as nice as San Francisco, but not nearly as expensive and a much better commute to peninsula/south bay jobs.

        There are a ton of apartment complexes and condo buildings in the area between San Fernando and Julian, and between Market and 5th. Heck, if we didn’t currently have a good tenant, I’d offer you our place! I’d say at least a third of our building residents are lawyers.

        That being said, Mountain View is a nice suburb and I wouldn’t hesitate to live there. Just don’t discount San Jose as a possibility; at least walk around downtown and take a look for yourself.

    4. Would love to hear answers. Am looking for a two bedroom minimum but same idea. Would love San Francisco if I can find something affordable.

      1. A two bedroom in SF will cost you $2400-$3000 a month, depending on the quality of the place. The hipsters live in the Mission and NOPA. The ex-sorority girls live in the Marina and Pac Heights. The people with babies live in Noe Valley, Bernal Heights and Glen Park. Check Craigslist; rents are super high these days.

    5. I live in Mountain View at the moment and while it’s generally safe for the most part, there are slightly dodgier parts, so hopefully you have a chance to see the area before committing to an apartment. Apartments groups to consider: Archstone, Avalon, Prometheus, Park Place. Other nice cities to consider though further north in the Peninsula than South Bay: San Carlos, Belmont. San Mateo.

    6. Downtown MV is a very nice area in terms of access to restaurants and stuff, but if you go a few blocks away from it it gets a little dumpy and maybe somewhat unsafe (although that’s true of a lot of places in the bay area, I think downtown PA is somewhat more insulated). I also know some friends who have had really bad luck with apartment complexes in that area – one of them ended up with a roach infestation. It is cheaper than Palo Alto though. Most of the people I know who live in MV don’t actually live close to downtown. I know a couple decent apartment complexes in MV that I can recommend but they are more on the Sunnyvale side of things or closer to 101.

      I know Palo Alto a lot better, since that’s where I live. The downtown area is nice, but pricey. There is definitely lots to do/eat and convenient access to groceries/errands/entertainment (and Stanford, which has a lot of stuff going on, even for non-students). I know of one nice complex downtown and one nice complex on the northern side of Stanford, about 1 mile from downtown. Both are expensive (think ~$2,000 a month for a one bedroom) but clean & in decent neighborhoods. Mountain View won’t be that much better in terms of price, maybe $1600-1800 or so for a nice 1 bedroom. Palo Alto is a little sparse in terms of apartment complexes – seems like most people are students who live on campus (or in Menlo Park) or they are well off families who live in houses.

      As far as names of actual management companies, Avalon is a big one. They have two places in Mountain View, one of which is close to El Camino and pretty swanky (even pricier and fancier than the two places I mentioned in PA) and the other is closer to Sunnyvale and cheaper but not as fancy, but still ok. I had friends who lived in both and they were all decently happy. Archstone is another one – they have a really swanky one in the city and one in San Mateo I think (?) that I don’t know anything about.

      Another consideration if you’re going to be commuting by car a lot is to try to live as close to 280 as possible. It is way, way better than 101 in terms of traffic. When I moved to the bay area someone told me “No matter how far out of the way you have to go to take 280, it’s always faster.” It’s true.

      Welcome to the bay area:)

      1. One area of San Jose itself that I really like is Willow Glen. It has it’s own little retail/downtown area and is very charming. It has easy access to 280, so that is nice too.

        I have lived in Mountain View and can also add a vote for that too. I currently live in Menlo Park, which is right next to Palo Alto and a great place to live. There are some streets around downtown MP that have a fair amount of apartments, but it is smaller than either Palo Alto or Mtn View, so it does feel more suburban.

    7. Downtown San Mateo gives you pretty good access throughout the pennisula but it might be a longer commute to your SJ office

    8. Thanks everyone! I will definitely check out those areas – heading out in a few weeks to find a place. I’m really excited about the move and now I have a few more areas to consider – still getting a handle on all the areas beyond just SJ proper. I will be commuting by car I think so living as central as possible (if possible) is also a factor.

  21. Looking for a coat similar to JCrew Lady Day in a vivid blue or purple. Fit issues with JCrew but live the style and having trouble tracking it down in a fun color. Any ideas?

        1. Dang, the one I’ve been stalking is out of stock in my size/color! :(

          Also just noticed I misspelled Talbots. Glad today is over!

      1. Thanks! Talbots had exactly what I was looking for, and while it was sold out online their locate in store feature worked really well.

  22. Ladies, I have an alterations question (and it’s wedding dress related, so skip if that bothers you).

    I got my dress at David’s Bridal, and apparently I’m between sizes. For the larger size, they estimated that it would cost:
    -$80 to bring in the back;
    -$50 to shrink/pad the bust, since right now it kind of floats above my skin;
    -minimum $30 but more like $50 for the bustle (which I would pay anyway, but whatevs).

    This seems ridiculously high, given that I only paid $350 for the dress. Then again, I’m totally new to alterations in general. I know the cost varies depending on how complex the alteration is, but I feel like the cost of a bustle should be pretty standard. Does $30-50 seem high for a bustle to you?

    I haven’t tried on the smaller size yet (thank you, DB for only having one in stock nationwide and taking 3 months to ship it- really?? but I digress…) so presumably alterations (if needed) will be completely different.

    What are your thoughts? Could I get it done cheaper if I went to a local tailor? Should I worry that a local tailor will completely screw it up? I live in Seattle for what it’s worth.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. As I mentioned above, I got my dress used (on preownedweddingdresses dot com). The woman I bought from was pretty close in size to me, maybe one size up, so it needed some alterations. I took it to a very skilled tailor in my area, who charged me about $150 to take in the bodice all around and do a permanent bustle which stays up the whole time. My bodice has pleating, so I imagine it was a PITA to work with. A bustle that you can take down into a train is more work.

      How much it will cost to alter your dress depends a lot on how the dress is constructed and what it’s made of. Even though the material is inexpensive (for a $350 dress, it’s probably not silk), if there’s ruching or pleating or beading or lace, all of that needs to be worked with carefully so that it lays right. Plus you can imagine how it’s very easy to alter a simple empire dress, or a princess seam A-line, but a lot more work to alter something with more complicated seams. Maybe watch an episode of Say Yes to the Dress where Vera explains about alterations to get a vague idea of what may be involved.

      However, there’s no rule that you have to get your dress altered at the bridal store. You’re in a big city that will have real tailors, so look up a few (not dry cleaners who alter clothes) and bring your dress in to get an estimate. I would trust a real tailor with experience in wedding dresses over David’s. You can always go back to David’s later if you don’t like your tailor consultation. David’s generally overcharges for everything, so I think it’s worth shopping around.

    2. I think David’s really makes a lot of its money on alterations. I’d recommend going to a seamstress that specializes in altering wedding dresses as opposed to a tailor. I live in a smaller town with few places for alterations and at least one specializes in bridalwear alterations. A tailor may not have as much experience dealing with the detail/ornamentation you’ll find on a bridal gown.

      1. Is there a difference between a seamstress and a tailor? I guess I thought seamstress:stewardess::tailor:flight attendant. Same job, but a gender-neutral term. Apparently not?

        2. No, a tailor has always been the masculine term. That’s not to say that a tailor can’t do a fine job on a wedding dress, but tailors are typically trained to alter suits, blazers, and other clothing that doesn’t have all that much ornamentation. They’re also less likely to be as experienced with the types of fabrics used in wedding dresses.

        3. A seamstress tends to do ‘girl’ clothes, ie softer fabrics without necessarily a lot of structure. A tailor does.. tailored clothes :-), that is firmer fabrics always with a lot of structure. Wedding dresses are a weird hybrid, as most do have a lot of structure but very few are made of good wool. Conventionally, they tend to fall more under seamstresses. but to be done well they really require a specialist because of the weird combination of skills needed.

          1. PS: a tailor may well be female. Although there are so few male seamsters that one doesn’t usually know what to call them, except that being male they usually call themselves couturier or some such grandiose appellation.

    3. I had my wedding dress alterations done by a local seamstress rather than the wedding shop, and it was a lot cheaper. I’m sure there are excellent seamstresses in the Seattle area who can take care of your alterations for a lot less than $150-180.

    4. The above poster who says that the cost of alterations depends a lot on how much on the cut of the dress. My dress was all ruffles from the waist down, and it was $450 for the first round of alterations to shorten the thing, and then another $50 when I had them put a dart in the bust.

      It’s also an area where it pays to do your research. You can absolutely have someone else alter your dress, but I would try to have a recent bride recommend someone.

      Dress alterations are another in the long list of sticker shocks when you get married. Another thing I wasn’t expecting: $300 to have the dress cleaned after the wedding!

    5. Thanks for the replies so far. While I’m at it, if anyone has recs for a Seattle tailor/seamstress who is reasonably priced that would be great!

      And another question: how important is it to get the dress altered as close to the wedding as possible? I ask because I’m getting married about a month after the bar and would like to have everything DONE before the studying starts… is my size really going to change that much in 2-3 months? (my size has stayed pretty constant, +/- 5 or 10 lb in the last 3 years)

      1. You might want to call independent bridal salons in your area (or nearby upscale towns) and ask if there are any seamstresses they recommend. If they are smaller stores, they probably don’t have a dedicated seamstress on staff, but they can certainly recommend someone and in their line of business they have to know who to trust.

        Also, my sister-in-law got married a month after the bar, and if I recall correctly she had to get additional alterations done because she had inadvertently lost weight due to the stress and with the style of her gown (strapless), there was no way to wear it as it was. (In contrast, I inadvertently gained a few pounds due to the stress of bar study and moving cross-country!) Additionally, she had pretty significant alterations made to the dress, and I think the total was quite a bit less than David’s Bridal was quoting you. I remember that I went to a seamstress for my bridesmaids dress and when she quoted me more for some simple alterations than my SIL was paying for major work I left and found someone else. (We were in different cities, otherwise I totally would’ve used my SIL’s seamstress).

        When you find a seamstress, I would discuss this with her. Depending on the cut of the gown and where you personally tend to gain/lose weight first, it might be possible to alter before and just maybe do small adjustments afterwards, or she might advise waiting until after the exam to do the whole thing. Good luck!

    6. If you’re in a city with a Nordstrom, they will do wedding dress alterations there at their normal alterations prices (which I think are pretty reasonable for the quality of work their alterations department normally does).

      Just call and make an appointment with their “bridal boutique/salon/whatever they call it.” Bonus is that they will help you shop for “foundation” garments (e.g., appropriate bra) for your dress. That way when the seamstress comes to the fitting room to take measurements for the alterations, she’ll do so while you’re wearing the right “foundation.” So there’s no reason to worry that, for example, the bust will be brought in too tight to accommodate a bra.

      The Nordstrom bridal salespeople will also help you shop for jewelry/shoes/etc. I was incredibly busy in the months leading up to my wedding, so it was really helpful to just show up at my local Nordstrom and walk into a fitting room with all these options — foundation garments, shoes, hair accessories, jewelry — already laid out for me. No extra charge — the salesperson works off commission.

    7. I got a bridesmaid dress from DB. $150 for the dress and $120 for the alterations!! I would try to go someplace else.

    8. It can often be a lot more work to do alterations than to make something from scratch. And even more so in a wedding dress, between complex construction and heinously difficult fabrics, not to mention embellishments. I’d totally expect what you’re talking about to be practically the price of the dress (which incidentally is very cheap for that kind of thing).
      You may wish to get an estimate from a local seamstress of how much it’d cost to have a similar dress built for you from scratch?

    9. Are you anywhere near a Chinatown? When I bought my wedding dress, I was told I would need alterations that cost 1/6th the price of the dress. I went to a few formal dress shops in Chinatown, and talked with some of the tailors and seamstresses and they did an excellent job with all the alterations– all of them for $50. They were also really gracious and kind– I didn’t feel like I was part of some assembly-line of brides to be dealt with, which was the feeling I got from where I bought the dress (Saks).

  23. Ladies, since many of you are younger than me and this is more recent for you, I’d like to hear:

    What did your mom or parents tell you about the following three categories? What was good advice? What was bad advice? What advice do you wish they’d given you?

    1) puberty
    2) mean girls
    3) drinking and drugs

    I have an 11 year old daughter and am gearing up to do my best.

    THANK YOU!!

    1. I bought an American Girls book – I think it was called “Care and Keeping of You.” We used it as a jumping off point to discuss some of the things that would be happening.

      Mean Girls – we talked about them. Wish I had been able to give better advice than “just walk away” and ignore them and hang with your real friends. It wasn’t useful advice.

      Drinking and Drugs – thought we had that one covered. But apparently it doesn’t matter what you say or model for your kids. One daughter stayed away from drinking and drugs, and my other one tried everything.

      So, I was golden on puberty, not-so-great on mean girls, and a complete failure on drugs and alcohol.

      1. aw, TackyMum, I am sure you were not a complete failure on anything!

        Thanks for the suggestions. We do have the American Girl book. I’ve been doing the “just ignore them” thing on mean girls and it is definitely not working!

      2. TackyMum: I am a recovering alcoholic who can tell you that if your children are prone to addiction, there is very little you can do to stop the path. However, I am of the opinion that you can help the recovery process by instilling good values for when she returns, by not enabling, and by loving her even with tough love. There are many parents who raised their kids in AA and those kids ended up drinking and drugging anyway. My son knows he is genetically inclined toward alcoholism so all can I do is hope and pray he learns from my experience.

      1. Thank you – I never had that book myself, but have heard great things about it.

        1. I also bought my stepdaughter a copy of “My Little Red Book” when she got her period.

    3. 1. Mom was very open with me about this. I knew what a period was by the time I was 7, I think. I saw the pads in the bathroom, asked what they were for, she told me, I was grossed out and then I didn’t ask any more questions.

      I do remember that when I got my period for the first time (age 13), she kept congratulating me for a week or so and it made me so uncomfortable. Try not to do that, she’s feeling awkward enough.

      She also took me to the OB shortly after I got my period because it was heavy and painful (sorry for the TMI) and I was put on the pill way before sex was on the brain.

      2. Growing up, my mother had an open door policy for our house, meaning that anyone was welcome at any time as long as they were nice. I also grew up with a lot of positive reinforcement so my self-esteem was never an issue. Something my grandmother always told me (and still does) is that if I don’t respect someone, their opinion of me is irrelevant. That really helped me throughout high school and especially college when peer pressure is rampant.

      3. Drinking was never an issue because if I wanted a taste of alcohol growing up (i.e. 12+), I could ask and could have a sip. She made it very clear that if I did drink too much, I was to call her and there would be no judgement. I never did so that never happened but she was there for my friends on occasion. Also, it was always said that drinking and driving was the worst thing someone could do. Not only would you be putting yourself and anyone in your car in danger, you were also a danger to anyone else on the road with you.

      To this day, if I have even a drop of alcohol, I will not get behind the wheel of a car. My friend’s car keys have been taken by me on occasion and while unpleasant at the time (because they were drunk and angry I wouldn’t let them drive), they always thanked me in the morning.

      *The most important thing was that my mother was very open with me and I could go to her with any question without fear of judgement. Open communication really is the best thing.

    4. Nothing. I just remember a lot of Catholic guilt being thrown around the house. It worked (for the most part).

      For puberty, I got awkward, 30 minute “lets get this over with” talk from my mom. I wish my mom would have been more sympathetic and told me more about what her experiences were. Turns out, I had a lot of the same issues as her but didn’t feel like she wanted to talk about it so I said nothing. This led to a lot of fighting in my late teens and early twenties as the truth started coming out.

      My fondest wish is that everyone would be more aware that breast buds can be very tender when a girl is going through puberty. My family loves bear hugs and I was repeatedly punished for not wanting to be hugged. 5 years later, I saw my uncles doing the same thing to my younger cousin. Maybe, as a mom, you can initiate “side hugs” or other ways to show affection that don’t hurt?

    5. 1) Without doing so in any cohesive or even planned way, my parents made me feel like my body and all its new functions were dirty, gross, and attached to shame. I didn’t realize this until around college age when I started noticing that my peers had totally different attitudes, and then thinking about where my own had come from. Thanks a lot, folks! My parents were amazing and did a lot of things right, but this was one area in which I really felt set back. It created serious problems for my body image and my early romantic and physical relationships. In some ways I feel like I’m still getting over it (age 30 now). So I’d say, avoid that if you can be conscious enough to do so! Some of it probably comes down to stray comments that you make about your own body, life, TV show situations, and so on. It’s very hard to describe, but it adds up…

      2) I don’t remember anything specific on the mean girls issue. I kept a lot of things to myself, though, so maybe they didn’t have much of a chance?

      3) I remember my Dad basically saying “I know you guys are probably going to experiment” (my parents did) “–but I’ve tried to raise you to like yourselves enough that you don’t develop problems.” Related to substance abuse, that is. I’m one of 3 kids and we have each had our fun, but I think my parents achieved this. We’ve each come into adulthood with good priorities, good health, and no bad decisions that haunted us longer than a day.

    6. I used to be a teacher, so I’ve heard the stories of “The Talk” from many…

      1. Start slowly. Don’t try to cram everything into one conversation. Consider talking in the car or while cleaning or something so there’s something to look at other than each other. Make things very matter-of-fact, don’t throw in bias in terms of gender roles or name-call about other females. It’s not about you, focus on the general or on her rather than her thinking her situation is way different because it’s happening to her.

      Also, give her tools to use on her own… buy her her first bra, a small box of pads and tampons, etc. She may feel foolish asking how things work but she may feel more comfortable if she’s being given items and told that you’re available to chat about them if she wants but you just want her to know the items are there if/when she needs them.

      I’d also say to focus on the immediate things; what it feels like and what you do when you get your period; when it’s a good time to begin shaving legs. These are things kids at school talk about and giving her info is helpful to squashing fear.

      2 and 3. So often, bad behavior comes out of confusion or peer pressure. Rather than lecturing about being nice or about not doing drugs, encourage her to do things that boost her sense of self and introduce her to people who don’t engage in bullying or substance use. Also, consider doing some volunteer work together at a local shelter or hospital where she may see babies with issues due to prenatal drug use, drunk driving accident victims in recovery, etc.

      Remember that kids at this age are self-focused because that’s where they are in brain development. Create an environment where your kid sees you as non-judgmental and open and you’re much more likely to have a good conversation now and in the future than if you’re rigid and make her think she needs to hide her physical changes or friends.

      1. This is excellent advice, K in NYC!

        I don’t remember my mom talking about any of that much, honestly. I learned a lot about puberty from the special health class at school, where they separated girls and boys. And all my mom said to me about sex was don’t fool around with someone you wouldn’t be willing to marry. That was after my older sister got pregnant- she was 20 at the time, I think, and not married. My parents pretty much had a don’t ask don’t tell policy about everything, which could have been bad- I did a lot of experimenting that they never knew about. I probably would have done it all anyway, but I’m sure most parents would prefer to know about it and have kids who felt they could approach them for help if they needed it. My parents were great as role models though and I turned out fine. But I think I will be more direct with my children.

        And mamabear- I think it is absolutely amazing that you are soliciting advice on this and thinking about it so that you are fully prepared to help your daughter with these difficult life experiences. She is very lucky to have a mother like you.

      2. I love this advice about puberty! My mom wanted to make a big deal about my first period — I think she imagined that it would be a special moment where we all celebrated my “becoming a woman,” but I was just mortified when she announced it to the family. I would have MUCH rather had a box of pads and a “here are the basics, let me know if you need anything” kind of talk. Every kid is different, though, and my sister might well have liked a celebration (I don’t think my mom tried this again after my reaction to it).

        I don’t know about the volunteer work with drunk driving accident victims, etc, though — I think that talking about the dangers of drugs and alcohol has to be balanced out against something that normalizes them and makes them less elicit and tempting. I got a glass of champagne with berry syrup on my 13th birthday, and was allowed to try alcohol in my parents’ home. For me that went a long way towards making it a normal part of life, and for letting me figure out what it felt like to be drunk while I was in a safe environment.

    7. I wish I had been told:

      1) Learn to recognize when you’re a hormonal mess and manage those disruptive emotions.
      2) It sucks, and it ends. There’s nothing anyone can do. It’s one of those horrid things and please know that it ends.
      3) Never drink anything pink. Max one drink and hour, and drink water after each alcoholic drink. Only drink beer (easier to keep an eye on your drink, takes longer to finish each one).

      YMMV! Good luck.

      1. Never drink anything pink?!?! Is there some newfangled drug I’m missing out on, or is this just an admonition to avoid jungle juice, wine coolers, and drinks mixed by people with the intent of getting you too drunk?

        Signed,
        The Woman who asks the Bartender for the Girliest Cocktail on the Menu (and who only has one)

          1. Your ‘pink’ is my tequila. Margarita, why are you so fickle? :)

            I agree with the beer admonition, though mine (from college senior me to young, innocent college freshman) is a little different – “It’s very difficult to kill yourself by *only* drinking beer. Shots are the devil. Never, EVER drink and drive.”

    8. 1. My Mom gave me The Talk when I was about 8 or 9. She was very up-front, honest, answered my questions, etc, which I now appreciate. But (at the time) I was absolutely and completely horrified at what my parents did to produce my sister and I. She was always open and non-judgmental to me about things, but I wasn’t very forthcoming with her because she would be judgmental about other people’s kids/situations. Of course, that also helped as a deterrent (see: drugs and alcohol, below) that I “didn’t want to end up like THOSE kids…” I think a big thing to touch on is hygiene – my mom really drove home the need to bathe a bit more carefully and completely when I had my period, and it just made me feel more like no one could tell, which made me more comfortable.

      2. I didn’t really have an issue with the mean girls that I remember. I think it helps that I had (and still have) a group of really awesome friends. I remember one time a mean girl came up to my friend and said, “Ew, didn’t you wear those jeans YESTERDAY? Or do you JUST buy the SAME jeans from TJMAXX? Gross!” My other friend and I said, “Um, does this mean that you were checking her out so much over the last couple days that you noticed the exact brand of jeans she wore? YOU were CHECKING her OUT?!” And then the mean girl ran away. So I suppose I dished it out as good as I got, and no one messed with me too badly? :-)

      3. There were a couple people in my family and my parents’ friends’ kids who had problems with drinking and drugs, and my parents always mentioned how sad it was that the person was throwing their life away. My parents had wine with dinner every night and my extended family always drinks, so I think it was never a big deal for me to see someone drinking. And I thought wine breath was horrible, so that was a pretty big deterrent until I found out about fruity mixed drinks when I was 20. But my mom had the same talk with me, about how she would come and pick me up wherever I was if I couldn’t drive home, no questions asked.

      1. “So I suppose I dished it out as good as I got, and no one messed with me too badly? :-)”

        I had the same experience and I really have to say, I think in the interests of promoting nonviolence, we are teaching kids not to stand up for themselves. The kids in my school who got it the worst were the ones who just sat and took the abuse rather than trying to give it back at little. My parents taught me that when someone attacks you, it is OK to defend yourself. Don’t attack others, but defend yourself, and my mom also told me that if I got in trouble at school for fighting back after I was attacked, she would back me up.

        Mean girls have always been around and will always be around in your daughter’s life. I honestly believe the best defense is for a girl to form her own tight circle of friends, both boys and girls – because then whether or not they are “popular” they will all have backup then. I was part of a group of kids that hung out together from 7th-12th grade and when someone would go after one of us, we would all stand together and it always worked out OK. One thing my mom told me, which I found to be true and which you might want to relay to your daughter, is that many times, the “popular” kids who are picking on everyone are themselves really unhappy people who don’t have real friends, or good relationships with their parents. 20 years on, most of the “mean kids” I went to junior high and high school with have struggled with drugs/alcohol, multiple marriages or kids out of wedlock, unsatisfying careers, etc. Whereas my group and the groups like us are, for the most part, doing great.

        The other big thing I would emphasize with your daughter is that if she sees physical or sexual violence, or sees/hears post-facto evidence of it, that is something that should be immediately reported to you or an authority at school, or the police. As a freshman in high school one of my friends was sexually assaulted by an older student she had flirted with at a party – she followed him into a bathroom to “make out” and he raped her – and none of us told anyone initially because we were A. scared of reprisals from this guy and her friends and B. afraid of the adult reactions, which we thought would be related to our behavior, not his. Kids don’t have the context, as someone else mentioned, to understand that issues are larger than their own behavior or the consequences they themselves face. Physical/sexual assault is ALWAYS something to report to an adult regardless of how she hears about it or the situation in which it happened.

        Hang in there mamabear, as someone else said, just maintain open communication and build up your daughter’s self-esteem and she will come out of it OK.

    9. I got no virtually advice from my parents, and my only “child” is canine, so I haven’t had to cross this minefield yet. But mamabear, you’re awesome for giving it this much thought and for keeping the communication lines open with your daughter!

      1. I want to thank everyone who has responded so far. I have read all of these and am taking them all to heart.

        I love the “we’ll come pick you up, no questions asked.” I said that recently to my daughter about driving, or rather being in a car when someone at the wheel is driving recklessly. We saw a carful of teenagers swerving in and out of lanes going 75+mph on the freeway, and I said, “honey, if you’re ever in a car like that, ask the driver to pull over and let you out, and then use your cell phone to ask me or dad to come get you. We will not yell at you or ask you any questions, I promise.”

        1. I was a victim of the mean girls and I was saved by a friend who I was SO mad at for getting involved. I was relentlessly tormented in 7th grade by the “cool” girls. My family was great at making me feel pretty and smart so none of it really damaged my self esteem. I thought they were crazy pathetic losers. But nonetheless, getting picked on all day from the moment you get on the bus to the moment you get off the bus is hell. I never told my parents because I didn’t know what they could do to make it stop. I had grown up friends with someone who became part of the cool group. I chose to stay friends with the “losers” and I think that is how I became the target of the cool group. Anyway, one of the biggest “losers” I was friends with went and told the guidance counselor what was happening. I got called to the guidance counselors office with the “tattle tale” and the cool kids. I was mortified at the time. It was like an intervention. When pressed, I admitted that the tattle tale was telling the truth and that the mean girls had been tormenting me. Guidance counselor read them the riot act and said if she got one more complaint, all their parents were getting called. Amazingly, they stopped for quite some time. One ended up stealing my diary out of my bag and when she wouldn’t give it back, I slapped her. While I don’t condone violence normally, I moved up a few notches after doing that. Then, while at a “losers” ice skating party, I ended up meeting an 8th grader who didn’t know I went to the same school as him. We ended up holding hands and dating for 2 whole weeks. Well, he was a “cool” 8th grader so I started to lose my loser status quickly.

          Long story short, I don’t know what my mom could have done differently to help me through that time. I do know, that my friend going to the guidance counselor really improved my life. I know that my parents had effectively convinced me of my worth long before those brats tried to destroy it. If you can build your daughter’s self esteem she will be less likely to suffer the ill effects of the mean girls.

          Oh, and it does get better. While I was never “cool” in high school either, I had a strong group of friends. Much to my surprise, no one cared in college if I was cool in high school. I realized quickly, outside of my small mean town, kids at my college thought I was smart and pretty and saw me the way my parents and close friends saw me.

    10. My mom was a sex-ed teacher, so there wasn’t really a “talk” about puberty – she introduced stuff sort of gradually. So when I got my first period (while hiking with my dad – embarrassing!) there were already pads under the sink and had been for months. I can’t really remember when I learned what sex was. She kept books (Our Bodies, Our Selves; What’s Happening to My Body?, etc.) on on one of our family bookshelves and I was free to take them out and look at them.

      Mean girls…well, my problem wasn’t mean GIRLS, it was mean kids. I was bullied by both boys and girls in elementary school. Unfortunately, my mom didn’t have much that was helpful to say other than the traditional “they’re just jealous of you”. I also was pretty secretive about how bad it was (and it was bad; I developed an eating disorder as a third grader due to the anxiety that resulted) – I think she would have done much more if she had known what was going on. My advice would be to be VERY proactive with her when it comes to asking about social relationships and to pay close attention to behavior (is she invited to birthday parties? do you see her interacting with other kids in social situations? etc.). And ask a lot of questions.

      For what it’s worth, I moved to a new school for middle/high school, and the fresh start – combined with finally telling my parents what was going on – made all the difference. I went from being a pariah, who girls mocked and at whom boys threw rocks, to being popular in an almost cliched sense (varsity sports captain, prom queen, and vice-president of student government). Reinvention is something that kids are capable of in a way that adults can’t even contemplate.

      Drinking/drugs: my parents said not to do either, but turned a slightly blind eye to some of my escapades. They knew that when I slept over at a certain friend’s house, there was probably a bit of drinking, but so long as I *did* sleep over (instead of driving home) and didn’t otherwise get myself into trouble, they let it slide. Of course, at the time, I thought they had no idea. W/r/t drugs, I was a drug-tested varsity athlete, so it was never an issue.

    11. 1) Puberty: My mom didn’t tell me too much about this at all. I got my period when I was 11, so my mom didn’t really have much time to prepare me for all of the “changes”. I learned more about puberty from movies, my friends and trashy teen magazines than from my mom. Good on you for wanting to be proactive and open with your daughter! If I had a daughter of my own I would be open and honest with her, and let her know that it’s an exciting time in her life–she’s growing up into a beautiful woman :)

      2) Mean girls: My mom didn’t really give me any expectations on what to expect from “mean girls”, but she taught me about the importance of keeping my reputation in check, and about the importance of choosing my words carefully (i.e., not gossiping about other people or sharing someone else’s secrets). Contrary to her stance on puberty, my mom was really open about friendships and psychology with me, and I always felt that I could always talk to her about drama with my friends and get good advice. I wouldn’t change anything with my own daughter if I had one.

      3) Drugs and alcohol: My mom was a big stickler for drugs and alcohol (she wouldn’t even let my dad drink in front of us for years!). Her stance was that neither was good — even in moderation. So unfortunately, I didn’t get much education about drugs or alcohol from my mom except that they were “bad”. My younger sister experimented with teen drinking after I had moved away for university, and my older brother’s friends had been caught with hash when we were in high school, so I guess her prohibition without any explanation wasn’t very helpful. I’m a believer in moderation and personal safety when it comes to alcohol and drug use, and I think if I had kids I would encourage an open discussion about what drinking and doing drugs feels like. If my kid ever smoked up or got drunk as a teen or pre-teen, I would want them to feel like they could tell me without me freaking out.

    12. Hi! Hope you’ll get this in time.

      My mom is a social worker with adolescents so I was practically her test case.

      (1) As far as sex — my mom gave me several books on the subject, we discussed it a few times, but I think the best thing she did was talk about healthy relationships (not just safe sex). By focusing more on being strong and independent and expecting respect within a relationship, I think she helped me make better decisions. Also, she kept me insanely busy so I had no time to have a boyfriend…maybe that was just my mother.

      In terms of puberty itself — I’m not sure how much you need to talk to your daughter about this, its going to be more about how much you can tolerate her while she’s a raving hormonally crazed lunatic!

      (2) Mean girls: I’d say the only thing I’d add about this that isn’t above is this. Something that has changed since we were young is that the majority of teenage bullying is done on-line. I think you need to discuss with your daughter early that she has no expectation of privacy in her internet presence and monitor her facebook page and e-mail. This can help you identify whether she’s being bullied earlier, watch out for internet predators and (god forbid) allow you to notice early if she’s bulling anyone.

      (3) Drinking and drugs — my mom definitely did the “no matter what we’ll come get you” — I think that’s key. Screw the rest of it, you don’t want her getting in a car with someone who’s been drinking.

      :-) Have fun with a teenage girl…or more appropriately perhaps, good luck with that!

      1. That’s a really good point about online bullying, and something I hadn’t considered, as my daughter as yet has no online personna ( but don’t you think “babybear” would be a great name for her? :) )

        She is already on the receiving end of plenty of mean girl bullshit IRL. I can’t wait for online!

        Thank you again to everyone who has responded. I love you all, SRSLY, and no, that is not just my glass of white wine speaking.

        xoxo

    13. Here’s my story:
      1) Grew up with my father and stepmother who was a witch. She told me nothing and I essentially learned about puberty from a combination of health class and the media. Looking back the hardest part was going through changes that went unacknowledged. For example, I was obviously beginning to develop and she flat out refused to get me training bras. This led to me constantly wearing sweaters until an aunt realized what was happening. I guess my advise here is: pay attention to what’s happening (I wish my parents had).

      2) Have an honest conversation about mean girls. Tell her that they tend to focus on certain things: your looks, your clothes and your friends. Then talk her through certain scenarios-for example: if someone criticizes your clothes, its probably bc they are insecure, etc. In the same vein, make sure she doesn’t turn into one of the mean-girls herself. Talk to her about being kind to others and stepping into other’s shoes.

      For what its worth, don’t do what my step-mom did, which was to ignore that I needed any sort of womanly guidance. So take her out shopping for age appropriate clothing and teach her about grooming. It will go a long way to make her feel good about who she is and what she looks like.

      3) By the time I was getting the drinking and drugs conversation I had left my father and went to live with my mother. She had a very open and honest conversation with me about the types of drugs out there and what they did. Including medical journal printouts of the long-terms effects of certain hard drugs. She also offered to come get me from wherever, whenever, no questions asked. Looking back, it made me realize the dangers of drinking and driving from very early on and to this day, I’m the one who takes keys away at parties and has anyone sleep over her house if they can’t drive home from the bar. I also never tried anything more than alcohol and marijuana and boy am I thankful for it.

      As an aside, I was truly bullied in middle school and early high school and it was awful. Then I moved to Arizona, attended a new school and completely re-invented myself. It’s been years-I am now 29-but every time I visit my dad I end up running into the same girls and it brings me immense joy to relate exactly how great my life is now. That yes, that handsome guy is my husband, and yes, we do workout, and yes, my rescue mutt does have a masseuse bc his owner studied her ass off, went to law school and now works at a fantastic job in NYC. Not that I’m bragging or anything. ;)

    14. 1) My mom had this book that she used – and then gave to me, with the caveat that if I had any questions she would be there. She did the same for my younger sisters, afaik.
      2) I don’t think this was covered – but there weren’t really that many of the mean girls in my class, so it was really a non-issue.
      3) My mom is a tee-totaler, so it was actually my Dad who dealt with this. When I was around twelve, he would let me have a smell/sip of whatever he was drinking at the time, with the instructions that he would prefer if I tried it at home rather than experiment out at parties. It must have worked, as I didn’t care for the taste/smell of beer or liquor then, and I didn’t start drinking much until I was 21 – and even now at 28, my limit is pretty much a couple of glasses of white wine or cider, and I still have issues with beer. (I don’t care for the lighter kinds, but I can force down a Guinness if I’m at a beer pub with friends).

    15. 1) Around age 11, I was given a copy of What’s Happening to My Body for Girls and a copy of What’s Happening to My Body for Boys. I was encouraged to read the Girls one and come ask questions. I was horrified by being given the Boys one, but it did turn out to be a helpful resource years later when I had questions I didn’t want to ask.

      In this internet world, I’d also give her a list of websites that have medically accurate information, i.e. Planned Parenthood, WebMD, Mayo Clinic, not sure what else, and talk to her about how just because it’s on the internet, doesn’t mean it’s true. If she ever doesn’t want to come to you with questions, be sure to give her the tools to get answers from safe places.

      2) My parents did not address this at all. By the grace of who knows what, I was not bullied.

      3) One smart thing my parents did is from a very young age, like 6, I was allowed to have a tiny sip of whatever they were drinking. I can’t remember actually wanting a sip more than a couple times until I was in middle school. Not only did this teach me about moderation, but it also gave me a palate for quality alcohol. There were never any plastic bottles of hard alcohol, crap beer, or jug/box/cheap wine in the house. Since I knew what the good stuff tasted like, the first time I tried wine coolers or Boones or other teenager alcohol was basically my last. I knew gin didn’t have to have that harsh burn. That stuff tasted like crap because I knew better. And because it was no big deal at home, it didn’t seem nearly as excitingly illicit.

      Another fun addition to this day and age are those caffeine + alcohol drinks, whether it’s vodka and red bull or the now-banned 4loko or whatever. I’d strongly suggest opening an ongoing dialogue about how incredibly dangerous that combination is, and why.

      1. That is such a good idea about buying her the Boy’s body book too. I think she’s really getting curious and is too embarrassed to ask.

    16. Re mean girls: Be aware that MANY girls are both victims of mean girls and the mean girls themselves, often within the same social group and in a short time frame. I distinctly remember 6th-8th grades being these horrible years where I would pray that I wasn’t the one being cruelly singled out and picked on during a given week. When it was my “turn,” I would eat alone and go home crying every day. But then I would magically “forget” how horrible that felt the next week, when another girl in our group became the target. Yes, there was one “Rachel McAdams” leader of the group, but the rest of us all played our parts, and suffered a lot as a result.

      So my advice would be to watch out for these kinds of shifts in your daughter’s mood and social circle, and please help her to remember how terrible it feels to be the one picked on. To this day I regret joining in with the “mean girls” to pick on another person, especially because I knew how bad it felt.

      1. I think my daughter’s problem is that she is torn between two “warring factions” of girls at her school, and when she’s more aligned with one group, some of the girls (not all) in the other group start being mean to her about her other friends. These are all friends she’s had since preschool or kindergarten, in both groups, so she gets really upset about it because they all used to play together.

        My daughter is on the emotionally young side for her age. Some of her fellow 11 year olds are already acting like teenagers while my daughter is still playing with her American Girl dolls. So she has a hard time understanding what everyone is getting so worked up about.

        For instance, planning her birthday party – we can apparently only invite girls from one group or the other, or she’ll have to deal with Olivia saying, “I’m not going if Kate’s going”, and Kate saying, “I’m not going if Anna is going,” etc. UGH

        But you’re right. While I think my daughter is a gentle soul who wouldn’t hurt a fly, I should keep in mind that I’m biased in her favor.

    17. I love that you are asking this!

      1) I had one of the American Girl puberty books (I think it was the book TackyMum mentioned above, but I want to say they have-or at least had-a couple). We started learning about puberty at school in 4th grade, so my mom mostly followed up on that. Honestly I think her biggest issue with me was that I was terrified of getting my period. No idea why, but I was, so she was trying to help me get over that. She made sure I had “supplies” ahead of time, too.

      The main thing I remember is that everything-bras, deodorant (yes, really), periods-was mortifying. My mom waited for me to ask, and frankly I probably went bra-less for longer than I should have.

      Also, my sister and I both have said we wish she was a bit more honest with us about grooming things that, especially in the case of my sister, led to teasing. My mom really wanted us to feel beautiful as we were, which is wonderful, but kids are not always as sensitive. My sister endured a lot of teasing about her “moustasche” that could have been avoided if my mom said something first.

      2) I definitely didn’t run in the popular crowd, but somehow made it through any mean girl encounters. We didn’t really discuss.

      3) We were pretty involved in church, so I heard more about drinking/drugs there than at home. To this day, my mother has never been drunk, and I have never seen either of my parents have more than a sip of anything. I don’t really advocate for this approach. I did get through high school without drinking (was also in sports 2 of 3 seasons and didn’t run in a drinking crowd) but was totally uncomfortable with it at the beginning of college and wish I hadn’t been so uptight :) Having more exposure to alcohol in a controlled setting would have been good.

      Hope that helps :)

    18. You need to buy these books:

      Everything You Never Wanted Your Kids to Know About Sex (But Were Afraid They’d Ask)
      Reviving Ophelia
      Queen Bees and Wannabees

      I read Reviving Ophelia when I was 16 or so and was like, “Oh that explains what just happened.” You can just read them to help you understand what she’s going through and not incorporate any suggestions in the book into your parenting style, but all of them have suggestions for how to open up dialogue / etc.

      But if your daughter is smart / mature / a reader (and you feel comfortable with it) you could just give her the books to read after you and then ask her what she thinks about what the authors are saying etc. (Not sure at 11 I would have been up for reading these books on my own, though that would have been more helpful than reading them later when I did). But don’t do what my grandmother did, which is cut out newspaper stories about rape and stds and leaving them in my room.

      I think these are really great books! And in retrospect they explained my experience quite well.

      1. >But don’t do what my grandmother did, which is cut out newspaper stories about rape and stds and leaving them in my room.

        That cracked me up. I love your grandmother!!

    19. On 3) , the only good parenting my father ever did was very effective for both my sister and me. While puffing stinky cigarette smoke in our eyes, he pointed out that you start when you’re very young because you want to look cool, and pretty soon you can’t stop. Forty years later you still have that filthy habit hardly anybody can break, and don’t even tell me about the costs or the lung cancer! Addiction is a sorry state of affairs. Worked like a charm :-).

      Mind you if I were you I’d add
      4) mean boys (including liars who just want to get in your pants, the ones who ply you with 3) to get in your pants, and just plain mean ones). Don’t push that off till she’s plotting of ways to get in their pants.

  24. Rant of the day. If you have stomach flu, DO NOT come to work. It amazes me how many people do not realize that the most common cause for stomach flu is a norovirus, which is incredibly contagious. Then people just go along and use hand sanitizers, which are not a proper substitute for a good wash with soap and water.

    Needless to say, one of my coworkers came in with the stomach flu today (right after our office potluck, and people wonder why I skip?) and I pestered him to go home immediately.

    1. People do always seem weirdly convinced they got food poisoning instead of a stomach flu. I’ve never figured out why.

    2. I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would *want* to be in the office if they had the stomach flu. That is just asking for something really gross and/or embarrassing to happen to you.

        1. Look at the boss. Do the employees have someone to cover for them when they are sick? Will they be completely overwhelmed when they get back? Is missing work a no-no? I had a job where I had six hearings a day will people scheduled to be in the office back to back and it was hard to warn them to reschedule. I was crying with a UTI and still got a hard time for leaving to get an antibiotic. If I had a flu, I would have risked barfing all over everyone over the hell I took for missing work. Got it?

    3. Just a PSA – don’t assume that everyone w/ nausea, vomiting or diarrhea has the flu. They may have a medical condition they don’t want to tell you about. I have crohns and it is pretty obvious when I am sick. I’m pretty open about it so if I’m getting sick in the bathroom and another coworker is in there when we are washing our hands I’ll just say “crohns, not contagious” and leave it at that. Others don’t share so the coworker feigning food poisoning or a bug could just have a flare of a chronic condition and no reason to really miss work.

      That said, I had to be hospitalized after getting norvirus once so I hear you on your rant.

  25. The manageing partner told ALL of us NOT to come into work if we are sick.

    One time last month, a young associate came in sneeseing and the manageing partner litereally threw him out and told him not to come back until he was well. And the manageing partner told him HE had bad breathe! Can you imageine?

    Now, if I am not feeleing well, I stay home and call the manageing partner. He is glad I am not at work when I am sick, and now I have a good reason to stay home!

  26. Rant: Why do otherwise normal folk keep asking you when you plan to have kids? Really, what sort of answer are they expecting ? If somebody were planning to have kids and having trouble, they might not want to share that info with you. If they were already pregnant, they may not want to tell you till the end of first trimester of till the time they complete pre-natal testing. The only answer that remains then is ‘Not now’ but then again this prompts them to ask ‘When, then?’.

    1. My friend’s husband had the best answer I’ve ever heard, “Not yet, but we’re sure having fun trying.” When said with a smirk it tends to shut people up real fast.

    2. Someone I know who struggled with fertility issues would answer, on her particularly down days, “when I stop having miscarriages”. It was a pretty effective end to that line of questioning…

    3. How about, “That’s such a horrible question.”
      Or, “You shouldn’t be asking that.”
      Or “You know better than to ask that.”

    5. Misguided attempts as casual conversation. They see it as the natural progression from the “when are you getting married” round of questioning. Likely, that’s how their life ran (got married, had kids), so they project a similar expectation on those that surround them, without considering the alternatives.

      1. This. A lot of people seem to only know 2 options for casual (non-work topic) conversations:
        Option 1: How’s the weather? How ’bout them Mets/RedSox/etc. [whatever sports team]?

        Option 2: Invasive personal questions when they clearly lack the social standing to even broach those topics

        Problem is, after these people exhaust Option 1, they invariably turn to Option 2. I guess these people don’t bother to read the newspaper so they know of nothing else to talk about without either being totally banal (weather) or totally invasive (your plans to reproduce.)

        In other cases, sometimes these people are oversharers with no sense of personal boundaries, so they can’t even begin to understand why their interlocutor would object to discussing certain topics. They have constipation of the brain, but diarrhea of the mouth.

    6. ugh I hate when people constantly ask me if I have a boyfriend (the answer is NO but I hate being single). I usually just say NO and stare at them. Honestly if someone has an SO it comes up in conversation “my bf and i went to xyz this weekend.” Sometimes I’ll say “No, why do you wanna set me up with someone”, as if to imply the only reason my relationship status is any of their business is if they want to actively participate in changing it. I hate being single as it is, it’s humiliating getting reminded all the freaking time. And not for nothing, I’ve accomplished a lot in my life, and am pretty active. But if you’re a woman you could have cured cancer, but if you’re single/unmarried it’s like you’re a total failure.

      2. Really? I do not think it is that big a deal. I think that’s part of normal conversation to want to know if someone is married or in a relationship. I am not, but I certainly don’t think I am a failure because I’m single. I am not desperate to find a man, no do I have any interest whatsoever in being set up.

        1. I think asking about relationship status is different than asking someone when they plan to have kids. I guess asking “if” is slightly less problematic.

          But as someone who’s still relatively newlywed (2 years) but mid-30s, I can tell you that it gets asked a lot and it’s uncomfortable. Especially as we are having fertility issues that I don’t want to share with every random person I meet (or even with more than my closest friends).

          1. Yes it is uncomfortable talking about your fertility issues with every random person. It’s also comfortable talking about your job situation when faced with long term unemployment. I’m just pointed out, that as a single person who does not want to be single, it’s uncomfortable discussing my string of bad dates/pseudo relationships with every random person. I’m just saying, if you weren’t so wrapped up in your TTC bubble, you’d realize that other people have situations in their life they don’t want to discuss with everyone either.

            I happen to live in the suburbs and not have one single girlfriend or unmarried coworkers, so I’m the odd man out all the time and this is constantly brought to my attention. If I were in a different situation it probably wouldn’t be as bad.

      3. I think it can be embarrassing if people ask you in a judgmental way, which they probably are unless the person asking you is interested in dating you or setting you up with someone. Not that being single is something one should be embarrassed about, but I can see how someone asking might put you on the defensive. It all depends on the context.

        1. Thank you KK. I was commiserating with OP that aside from the “when are you having kids” there are other things that people are constantly asked about that they’re sensitive to. I will add this question is always either asked by the smug married/attached women, or family. I’ll never forget one of my law school thanksgivings (so I was 22-24, and yes single all those years) where my grandmother asks if I have boyfriend, and when I answer no, loudly shouts “If you’re a lesbian just tell us already!” Mind you, a boyfriend throughout most of college that she had obviously met.

          The “Soo….do you have a boyfriend” question always comes after they gloss over everything else in life (e.g. law school, bar exam, getting job, vacations, running a marathon) and when I say no I get the smug fake pity look. I should probably respond with “oh so now that little Johnny’s in kindergarten, do you think you’ll lose the baby weight,” and not let them get to me, but it still gets to me.

          Apparently no one else on here has to deal with the lack of SO issues at the holidays.

          1. From what I’ve read in the comments, lots of people have dealt with it. I mean this kindly: get over your bad self.

          2. i definitely had relatives of all kinds pestering me about the “problem” of my single status.

            then i met someone, but problem was my living-in-sin status.
            now we’re engaged, but problem is our wedding plans.
            once we’re married, the problem will be our childlessness.
            once we have a child, the problem will be that there’s only one.
            if we have two, the problem will be that they’re poorly behaved.
            if they are well-behaved, the problem will be that we’re too strict.

            or something. i’m sure you get my drift. happy holidays! :)

          3. I hear you anon24. It can be hard being single for long periods when you’re in situations where you’re either a. having to convince or answer to others that think there’s something missing in your life or wrong with being single, or b. being pandered to based on your single status.

  27. Question for those of you who’ve ordered from Lands End Canvas — I wanted their skinny cords but they only had a 31; I wear a (snug) 30 in their skinny jeans so I went for it. Cords arrived today and they’re pretty big — not huge, but big.

    1) Think I should return these b/c they’ll stretch out? or
    2) Think I should try shrinking them in the wash?

    1. I like my lands end skinny cords, but they bag a little bit by the end of the day. In fact, I dry them so that they snug up between washes. If they are too big now, they’ll be big forever.

  28. I don’t have any lands end canvas experience, but I’d return them and spend the money on a pair that fits. Cords, like jeans and khakis, stretch as you wear them.

  29. With the holidays quickly approaching, anyone have any good tips for dealing with in-law stress? My inlaws are the King and Queen of Smugville. They are pretty religious (we are not), they basically demand grandkids every other visit (we are undecided), women should want to stay at home and not work (yeah right), etc., etc …..

    I take it as personal digs to us and our lifestyle. My husband just says they like to state their opinion. He admits it sounds bad, but he thinks they don’t mean any harm.

    Anyways, I need serious mantras to get me through …. advice welcome.

    2. Send (anonymously) them a copy of the Twelve Habits of Magnificent Mothers-in-Law. I bought myself a copy when my son married last year and reread it recently when all the holiday planning started. I now give copies to friends whose children marry.

    3. Alcohol helps. I’ve become more comfrontational over the years, especially when it’s something utterly ridiculous like the complaints about the size of our house or the horror of me not changing my name. I have also created a bingo card of offensive remarks on occasion. My recent favorite was last Christmas, when MIL told me how glad she was that I wasn’t gaining so much weight when pregnant with my second child (as opposed to my first). With my first kid, I was 7 mos pregnant at Christmas. With the second, I was barely out of my first trimester by Christmas. Scrawny little witch.

    4. OMG, did you marry my ex husband? Because that sounds just like my ex inlaws.

      (and it feels so very, very good to say EX inlaws)

      No advice. My solution was obviously an extreme one. Just commiseration.

  30. Hey ladies, anyone tried e-harmony and would you recommend? I’ve tried the free dating sites (e.g., plentyoffish and okcupid) but haven’t had much luck so thinking maybe the sites where you pay might be better?

    1. My two younger sisters both met their husbands on eHarmony. Needless to say, they both highly recommend it.

    2. I have had a lot of luck on OKCupid (oddly enough – 2 relationships, including my current one), and zero luck with eHarmony (not even a date). I got one or two dates from Match, but didn’t meet anyone spectacular. Plentyoffish seemed to be a bastion of illiterate creepers and I deleted my profile really quickly. Also no luck on Catholic Match, in case you happen to be Catholic – either the guys seemed to be full-time, professional Catholics with no other interests, or they seemed to be creepers looking for Catholic schoolgirl types.

      1. BTW, I seem to be an outlier with eHarmony. I too have friends who met their husbands on there. But from my experience and my friends’ experience, introverts don’t do so well with their matching system.

          1. I don’t know for sure, but I would guess that maybe introverts are less likely to join online dating sites? And that leaves you with fewer fellow introverts to be matched with. Also, in general (not specific to eHarmony), I think we are not that interested in talking about ourselves or sending a lot of pithy emails back and forth.

            But on eHarmony the first time I took the test it couldn’t find any matches for me, and when I retook, I joined but I got the same matches over and over for a few months. I’ve also heard that Evangelical Christians do better on eHarmony, and anecdotally, that’s been true in my circle of friends.

        2. I think I’m like an introverted extrovert or something, I do better in small groups and likes lots of alone time. Eharmony is the only online dating site I’ve tried. FYI, if you dont’ find a discount, sign up for one month a quit. after that they’ll send you emails to join for $15 a month.

          I met two people in person. One the emails were great, but I wasn’t that attracted to him (he had really smally grainey pics online), his teeth were really bad (dealbreaker for me) and was pretty immature. He also asked me to stay at his house after the second date (helloooo I just met you online) so I killed it after that. The other was older than me, we dated for about a month, but he seemed pretty shallow and was fiscally irresponsible (a dealbreaker for me, and he was an accountant in his mid 30s!). I will say on some levels these people were good matches for me though, and they did both want something serious.

          I live in a suburban area, so it’s probably a better pool in the cities. I took Patty Stranger’s advice and waited for all the men to contact me. I will say any of my matches I was interested in actually did contact me. I didn’t have professional pictures but they were good ones of me. I had some face ones, 1-2 full body ones in modest clothes, and some of me doing activities/with pets.

    3. Met my H on match, so that worked for me :) the free sites creeped me out, but this was a few years ago.

      1. Friends that have recently tried the free sites in my area found them to be creepy also, though this may also have something to do with us living in a small to mid-size city. I agree about Match- I’m not sure online dating is something I’d try again, but I’m currently a couple of months into a relationship with someone I met on Match (thank you to all of the corporette’s who encouraged me to try it this summer!).

        1. *corporettes (clearly I haven’t had my coffee yet- it’s definitely not almost noon where I am)

    4. It definitely gets harder for all the reasons people have described. I was basically single for 8 years, with a few short relationships (~months) in the first 3 years, and then nothing more than a few dates for the next 5. Over that period I tried eHarmony and Match several times in bursts of a few months or so. Never met anyone I really clicked with, or went on more than 2 or 3 dates with.

      I met my SO during the last round, when I was really half-hearted about it, and actually planning to move so wasn’t really interested in getting serious with anyone. Things really only clicked for me about 4 dates in. I wasn’t really into dating, but he was nice and funny and pursued me (without being creepy or overly intense, in contrast to the guy that texted me like 10 times a day after we had one fun date), so I kept agreeing to go out with him (each time expecting it to be the last date), and then I fell for him.

      I think for some people (particularly introverts?) it takes a while to warm up to people, and online dating can give you this false expectation that you that you’ll “click” right away because you have so much in common, and you know so much about him/her (due to all the info on the profiles, and with eHarmony the guided communication), and when you meet they’re still a stranger. If you think about how you’ve met people you’ve dated in the past, you probably had already gotten to know them a bit and started to like their personality or feel a little bit of chemistry which then sparked the dating bit.

      Anyway, this has just been my experience. I actually think that if my SO and I had met in a bar or something, I would’ve been intrigued and fallen for him more quickly. But when the first time you meet someone you already know a bunch of details and you’re both there to see if this can become a relationship I think it alters the dynamic and puts some pressure on that isn’t there when you just happen to meet someone and then discover that you have a lot in common.

      It’s not like online shopping… you can’t just pick someone and have it work out because they look great on the screen. But it exposes you to people you might not have met otherwise, and maybe one will turn out to be a gem.

    5. I have a few friends who have met their wives on eHarmony and it seems like the relationships there move fairly fast and people may be more traditional than you’d find on other sites. (Both people I know got engaged within 6 months of meeting their wives). Other people I know who have said they haven’t tried eHarmony claim it is for the same reasons I’ve mentioned. They just aren’t interested in moving quite that fast. On the other hand, if that’s what you want, then it may be perfect for you.

    6. I’ve been on eharmony for a long time, yet to meet anyone. It doesn’t seem to be a popular site in my area, maybe in a bigger city there would be more men participating. I rarely get any matches on it. I don’t pay unless I get an interesting match, then I sign up for a month so I can look at his picture. I do like the structure of eharmony, there’s a step where each of you exchange a list of things you can’t stand, and things you can’t live without, I find that helpful. I know I’m not a match with someone who can’t stand clutter. I recently got on plentyoffish, lots of guys my age, lots of emails, but why do they all ride motorcycles? I don’t think I’m a good fit with that site. It probably varies by area, though.

    7. My friend and I decided to take the eHarmony plunge together – this is where my story of high volume dating comes from. I thought the guided communication was a general waste of time. I’d get to messaging as quickly as possible, and if the guy wasn’t a total jerk or had any dealbreakers for me, then we’d meet for coffee. I went on 40+ dates in the 2-3 months I was on it. While I didn’t meet anyone I clicked with, I did meet some nice men that someone else could have clicked with. Then I met my now-fiance randomly through friends. My friend stayed on for another month, and in that time met her now-husband on eHarmony. They were engaged within 7 months, married before 2 years of their first contact, and now have a beautiful child. He’s a really great guy. People say that more “traditional” people have success on eHarmony, and I think that’s a bit too narrowly defined. My friend and her husband were very busy professionals who had a hard time meeting people. They did have a church wedding, but I am pretty sure they are only-on-holidays church people.

      1. I don’t think of “traditional” as being confined to religious people- the two friends I mentioned above are actually agnostic/atheist, but I think they are both types who want to get married and start families quickly. If you don’t want to get serious for a while, don’t want kids, etc., I don’t really think eHarmony is the place for you.

        1. Ah, yes. I agree with that. eHarmony is not the site for casual dating, definitely more for those looking for serious relationships that they hope will lead to permanent relationships, whether that means an official marriage or a domestic partnership type one, and kids if that’s what both want.

          And for those that are either Jewish, or open to dating Jewish men but are not Jewish yourself, I have heard many stories of great success on JDate.

      1. I know several people, including my cousin, who are in happy marriages with people they met on J-date. Beware: some (stealth) shiksas sign up to meet Jewish boys.

        2. I had a terrific experience on JDate! Used it for 3 months when I was ending a looooong dating slump. Went out with about 5 nice guys in a month (emailed with a few more) and then met my now-boyfriend in real-life. Funny enough, he was also on JDate at the time.

          Also a religious Jew, fwiw.

          1. I realize my timeline makes no sense…went out with 5 nice guys in my FIRST month, I meant to say :)

      3. I come from a pretty traditionally Jewish background, and most of my female peers, etc don’t use J-Date anymore. The reputation is absolutely that it’s where Jewish men find non-Jewish wives. If that’s your thing!

    9. I tried eHarmony earlier this year and was extremely disappointed. Not only did I receive very few matches, the men whose profiles were sent to me did not seem like good matches to me at all. For example, I’m an introverted bookworm – so why did they keep sending me functionally illiterate party animals??? In addition, I specifically stated that I have zero interest in having children, yet many of the men listed “being a good father” as their best quality! Of the few guys who seemed worth communicating with, none responded to my overtures – and not a single guy reached out to me during my six months with the service. Ouch.
      As they say, however, YMMV.

    10. I have a male friend who met several nice women on match.com. Another female friend and I used to go through the profiles and pick out prospective dates for him. He ended up in a long term relationship with another women who he met through college friends, but I do think he could have eventually met a long term person through match. He was new to our city at the time, and he met a lot of women who were also new to the area. The longest relationship he had from there lasted about 3 months, but he stayed in contact with several of the women as friends. So if you’re looking for a more casual dating/just meeting people scene, match.com might be a good place to start.

      1. Met my fiance on eharmony. But I know of others for whom it hasn’t worked. I don’t think there’s any one rule about those for whom it works and those it doesn’t. Why not give it a month for a few months along with maybe another site like OKcupid or match or what have you. You’ll never know if it’ll work for you unless you try. Good luck!

    11. I think it depends a lot on location, demographics (your own and your city’s), and the type of relationship you are looking for. Eharmony was a bust for me — the men were typically more conservative, more religious, and more interested in a serious relationship asap than I am. Also, the ethnic breakdowns didn’t work in my favor.

      I managed to meet some interesting guys through okcupid, even if they didn’t weren’t “the one.” Match, unfortunately, matched me with too many people I already knew (in a city with several million people, no less). I am planning on giving okcupid and maybe match another try this winter, since I have nothing to lose.

    12. Possibly it’s pretty regional, but I got the impression there just weren’t many men on it. I tried it, and my nearest match was a 20 hour drive away. Not exactly practical!

      1. Thanks all for your replies. I think I’m going to try it for one month to see what it’s like (even though it’s pricier per month that way) and then cancel if it doesn’t work out. I especially feel like I need to try it and take more control more over my dating life so hopefully this is just one more step towards that. Thanks ladies!

  31. I’m a little over ten years into my career (early 3os) and in the process of making a slight career shift. I’m really excited about branching out into this new area, but I’ve discovered a common thread with nearly every woman I’ve met with in this area so far – almost all of them are in their 40s, unmarried and childless. A rare few married late in their 30s and have one child. They all seem to absolutely love their work – a sincere passion for it – but have mixed feelings about their personal lives and many have alluded to their career choice contributing to that (so little time, always traveling, just can’t imagine raising a child and making it all work, constantly torn between my child and work).

    Right now, I’m very single, ambitious and, while I definitely want to get married, not really 100 percent on having children. (That said, if I had to pick today, I’d probably lean more towards wanting to have children – by adoption or birth – than not.)

    Knowing this, would you take the plunge on the new career field? On the one hand, I don’t have a spouse or children now, so why not take the plunge and give it a shot, right? On the other hand, I worry I’m going to wake up ten years from now wishing my work was less all-consuming and I’d invested more in meeting someone and starting a family.

    I know, I know… age-old questions, right? And yet here we are. Thanks in advance for your advice.

    1. We all have the same dilemna! What do do? Have a career or a family with children.

      Personally I am developping my career so that I can have a backup plan in case my personal life does NOT work out.

      I still have time, though not alot to much more time before I HAVE to have a child.

      I would perfer to be MARRIED, but there really are not to many men that I can relate to for a relationship. So many just want sex and not to listen to what I have to SAY.

      So I am hopping that the law firm provides me with EXPOSURE to clients who will be able to have a guy I can marry.

      I wish all of us corporetes the best, b/c we DESERVE it.

      2. Thanks. I’ve actually never seen this before. Great perspective (along with everyone else’s comments). Keep ’em coming. Definitely helping with sorting out my thoughts.

        And a little bit to AT’s point below, I guess what’s to say that one outcome or another is inevitable. Everything is a tradeoff and maybe this will just mean being extra conscious of how I am using my time as life priorities evolve.

    3. Do you know for sure that it’s the field in particular or certain companies within that field? I work as a consultant, and I had a phone interview with a man who is in his late 30s and made some comment about how he’s single and travels a lot. The job was advertised as having 25% travel, but he said it’s more like 80 or 90%. I did not pursue that particular lead any further. I currently work for another consulting firm in the same field that has a really solid local business base. I’ve been at my current job for over 6 months and I’ve never had any overnight travel. Oh, and I work part time, but I’m not seen as a “part timer” because I have a small child. I know that my work is highly valued, and I’ve been getting positive reviews.

      I guess what I’m saying is that it might be the particular companies and not the entire industry that is causing the women to make the comments about their personal lives. It’s so easy to bank on possibilities. If you are offered a job you think you will love, why not go for it?

    4. I think you have to live your life and pursue your passion, and staying in your current field doesn’t guarantee marriage and children either. Go for it.

  32. Just to play devil’s advocate, there is always the possibility you could keep doing what you’re doing, actively try to find a partner, and… not.

    On the other hand, you could switch careers, LOVE your new field, and meet someone that you never would have met otherwise.

    There are no guarantees and no crystal ball (though I entertain myself with the online magic eight ball sometimes…), so ultimately you have to decide what’s important to you and pursue it and hope that it works out. If you think you would be personally gratified with this switch, but you also genuinely desire to find a long-term relationship, maybe you should make a plan for how to balance and actively pursue both. Figure out when you will have free time with the new job, and plan how you will fill that with activities that you will enjoy (that might also lead to meeting someone), or decide that you will actively pursue online dating, or that you will employ a matchmaker.

    It’s true that there are many professional women in their 30s/40s and beyond who are single and wish they weren’t. Granted, busy, demanding, and unpredictable jobs can make it difficult to meet someone or do anything else with your life. But what would have been the alternative? Should we all have foregone professional education? I really don’t have an answer.

  33. I have a couple of things I want to get from Banana Republic, and they are currently running a 30% off promotion — should I jump on it or wait for a greater sale next weekend? What do you guys think?

    1. They run 40% promotions fairly often. If you’re on the email list, they’ll often have a sale where it’s 40% off for 3 hours only or something like that.

    2. Try friending them on Facebook. They had a special coupon last Wednesday for 50% any five full-price items. I got a nice skirt suit, cozy sweater, silk top, and black floppy Rachael Zoe hat for $230!

  34. I was recently given a year long opportunity that would not be good for my career (it’s not BAD for my career by any means, just not really beneficial) but really good for me, personally, as a growing experience and something I’ve always wanted to do (I don’t want to go into details that would identify me). I think I’m going to do it because I think in 10 years I’ll regret not taking the opportunity, but I do feel a bit of nagging guilt for not continuing on my nice little career path. Has anyone been in this situation before? How did you reconcile any sort of dissonance that you feel? I ultimately believe that personal happiness is more important than career goals but I still feel guilty!

    1. After the year, can you step back into your career (assuming you want to at that point)? If the answer is yes, or strongly probable, I would go for it without a doubt.

      My situation isn’t that similar, but for what it’s worth I left biglaw to move overseas (still a lawyer, but in a completely different capacity, and most definitely not at a firm), and it was been so wonderful for me in so many ways. The only downside is being so far away from family, friends, and BF. I agonized over it a lot, but in the end it was something I had always wanted to do, it kind of fell in my lap right before I was about to make a job change that I wasn’t entirely sure about, and I have absolutely no regrets.

    3. I think you’re likely to regret not going. I put my life on hold a few years for an opportunity to work abroad and am really glad I did it. Yeah, I’m probably 3 years behind where I would be otherwise, but I wouldn’t take my experience back for a minute.

    4. How old are you? Realistically, you probably have decades of work still in front of you. (Hope that isn’t a depressing thought.) Taking a year to do something different and intriguing, and which is not even harmful to your path, sounds great. If you are smart and/or hardworking, you will at a bare minimum be able to work yourself back to where you are now in a short period of time, and will probably find yourself in a better position after a year. Go for it.

    5. You might be surprised too by what seemed non-helpful professionally at the time and becomes useful down the road. I took a leave to go do something amazing, but not necessarily value-added to my job for a period of time. Now a couple of years later, I’m shifting my career path and it’s all of a sudden become useful experience.

      And even if not directly relevant, sometimes these sorts of things become at the very least a good conversation starter or unique feature about you that is useful with networking or job interviews. For example, I decided to study a more obscure language completely unrelated to my work – just because I wanted the challenge. When that comes up in interviews, people tend to be impressed, not because it’s relevant, but I think it because it says something about me that I chose to do it.

      Maybe this won’t get you the next step up the ladder, but it could help with something less tangible – maybe show future interviewers that you are gutsy or be something you share in common with a future boss or colleague that helps you bond.

    6. Absolutely go for happy. The career path is nice, but it’s not life.
      I stopped what I was doing for 6 months and worked for a rare books dealer in NY. Cockroaches. Snow. Hogarth Press. I loved it, and found out that I wasn’t really good at it, and didn’t have enough money to really make it. Went back to everything as before. Felt much happier because I wasn’t fantasizing about leaving any longer, and could appreciate that I was good at what I was doing. Just saying..

  35. Help! I need a new pair of black heels (2-2.5″) for work. My ‘go-to’ pair has seen better days.

    1. Should have been a little more specific – close-toed for the winter, pretty flexible on price as long as they are cute and comfortable!

      1. I really like my Coach stiletto pumps (I think they are 2 1/4″). Ann Taylor Perfect pumps, in kitten height, seem to have a lot of fans as well (they actually look very similar to the Coach ones). At a much lower price point, check out the Franco Sarto Bingo pumps. I have them in brown and they are soooooo comfy.

        I know lots of people on C’ette swear by Cole Haan Air Talia’s. Personally I find they fit my foot oddly, but YMMV.

    2. Naturalizer Lennox – they come in black leather and black patent. Less than $100 and incredibly comfortable. I can wear these forever. The heel is less than 3″ – 2.7″ I think, but with a small platform. I can’t recommend these shoes enough. Size down, though. I had a few days of breaking in the toe area (the leather above the toes was a little tight) but they broke in beautifully and didn’t cause blisters, just needed nylons for a few days.

  36. Galo black patent leather pumps. Go with everything. Really comfortable. Last for years. Patent holds up well in all weather (not suggesting you wear them in snow and rain, but if they get wet, just wipe them with a paper towel and they are fine — not ruined like suede or leather).

    Link to follow in case of moderation.

  37. Hope it’s not too late in the weekend to get some hive wisdom.

    I have a silk micropleat blouse (I’ll post a separate link to avoid moderation, but it’s by Cynthia Steffe currently on sale at Bluefly).

    Some of the pleats sort of fell out, and I took it to my cleaners to try to get them pressed back in. They ended up actually making it worse, though most of the pleats are still intact.

    Anyone else have one of these blouses? How do you maintain them? Thoughts or ideas?

      1. yikes. That blouse looks like it’s be a nightmare to clean/press. The only thing I can think of would be to take it to another dry cleaner to see if they can fix it.

  38. Anyone have any experience with Lasik they’d like to share? My husband’s new insurance offers what sounds like a pretty great discount on it through LasikPlus, and I’ve been thinking about wanting it for a while, but the cost and the fear of surgery have caused me to put it off.

    Any experiences with LasikPlus, how was the procedure in general, how much did you pay, did it last, worth it, and does it matter if your vision is really really bad (my contacts are -7.25 – one of the reasons I would like it is that I really can’t function with glasses, because they’re just so darn thick.)?

    TIA!

    1. I don’t know how old you are, but your eyes may get significantly better when you age. My dad’s prescription used to be similar to yours and now he’s at -4.5ish. I have a coworker who had it and he’s back to wearing glasses again as well because his eyes have changed.

      1. Hmm, I’ve never heard of that. I’m 31, and they’ve gradually been getting worse all of my life. My dad and all of my siblings have similar eyesight, and I don’t think that my dad’s has improved at all. I’m sure it happens, but I’d be surprised if it happened to me in the next several years.

        1. I think what happens is that the farsightedness that most people get with age starts to cancel out near-sightedness. That said, if you’re prescription hasn’t been stable for at least a year (maybe two), I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t be eligible for Lasik (though there’s no harm in getting a consult).

          I actually wish I had. I no longer can because (and pardon the TMI) of a contact related infection that has left a scar on my cornea. It’s just deep enough that Lasik isn’t feasible.

          My understanding is that Lasik has gotten much, much safer over time. That said, I think I would only get it done from a highly rated cornea specialist (I don’t know if they are now allowing regular opthamologists to do it). A friend of mine with a lower prescription than yours got it done a year ago and is so happy now. She said that it kind of hurt for a month and her eyes were really dry, but she doesn’t have too much trouble now. She had actually developed an allergy to the preservatives in eye drops and contact solution, so contact wearing had turned into a huge hassle for her. FWIW, if I could get it done, I would.

          1. When I went to an opthamologist, he actually recommended that people had stable vision for 3-5 years before doing Lasik. If your eyesight is continuing to get worse every other year or so, it’s not going to be worthwhile to get Lasik because you’ll need corrective lenses again before you know it.

            NOLA- sorry about your progressives. I think that’s one type of lens where higher quality really makes a difference. How often do you have to get new glasses? Mine are expensive as well, but my eyes haven’t really changed that much and I can do fine getting glasses every 3ish years.

          2. Re: Lasik. When was the last time you asked about the feasibility, and have you looked into other laser-based refractive surgeries?

            Because my corneas were so thin, they did laser PRK instead (I don’t know the difference). They told me that if I had come in for my initial consultation three months before I did, they would have told me that I couldn’t have surgery because their equipment at the time wouldn’t have worked on my corneas. The good surgeons are frequently upgrading their equipment, so what they told you a year ago may not still be the case!

        2. For what it’s worth, I had been told that, but it has most definitely not been true in my case. In fact, my far vision (now -11ish in both eyes) is now so bad that correcting it causes a problem with the lens that prevents me from seeing close with them. My last pair were progressive lenses and they worked great and I was thrilled, but this new pair (stronger prescription) work well for distance and reading but don’t work at all for intermediate (like my computer at work), despite having the lenses remade twice. So I’m at a point where I’m thinking about Lasik just to get to where glasses would correct my vision. Having spent $1200 on glasses this year, I feel like Lasik would have been a better investment.

          1. I can’t complain about the quality of the lenses. The first time I got progressives, I switched from Lenscrafters to a local place that is known for high quality. My lenses alone there are about insanely expensive but it has been worth it to go to a place where they know what they’re doing and will remake the lens if they’re not right. I waited about 3 years this time. Honestly, I didn’t feel like my prescription was the problem. More that the lenses were scratched after 3 years of everyday use. My eye doctor said that my prescription hadn’t changed that much but it turns out it had in my left eye. Now they’re equally bad!

            My two girlfriends who’ve had Lasik swear by it and are bugging me to check into it. One of them has this conspiracy theory that optometrists are just out to sell you glasses, but I think she’s full of it. I recently switched to an optometrist at the clinic/hospital where I go for everything else and they’re not really in the business of selling glasses. I’ve always been a little fearful of Lasik because my Dad had it years ago with a very reputable doctor and he has had haloing ever since and can’t drive at night.

      2. This happened to my mother-in-law. Her nearsightedness improved once she hit 60.

    2. My husband had really bad vision and had lasik in 2007. It’s like a different world. He could not be happier. Can’t remember the cost. I want to say somewhere in the $2-3K range for both eyes. His eyes were dry for about a month but he has not had any problems or required any type of “maintenance” or special eye treatment since.

      1. Another note on cost – Lasik surgery is not something where you shop around for the lowest cost, you shop around for the best surgeon in your area/surrounding area.

        1. Definitely. Other than googling, any tips for how to shop around for the best surgeon? I always feel lost on that sort of thing, and I don’t really know anyone who’s had it done.

          1. Ask your ophthalmologist who they recommend. They’ll warn away from the places with bad reputations, and lead you to the quality surgeons.

          2. They should be doing free consultations where they do a number of tests like how big your pupil gets when it dilates, the thickness of your cornea, and talk to you honestly and frankly about what type of laser surgery you should be considering or that you qualify for (there are few LASIK types out there).

            FWIW, I (and my brothers) each had it done senior year of college or there about. We were each pretty near-sighted (one more than the others, he had a slightly different procedure done), had the dry eyes (which is totally normal – you sever the tearing nerve, which eventually reheals, but are told to you eye drops for the next year to aid in the rehealing).

            The only issue I get is a little bit of trouble focusing in lowlight situations. I don’t get the haloing (which happens when not enough of the cornea is lasered and your pupils dilate outside of the altered area and has the weird refraction on the very edge), but nothing is quite as crisp as I think it should be. I went from a 20/200ish prescription to a 20/30 range. It’s been about 8 years and I’m happy with it so far. The first couple months were weird because I had not seen my face without glasses since 2nd grade. But I’ve gotten used to it…

      1. I think if your job depends on having (or achieving through corrective lenses) perfect vision, like being a surgeon, LASIK is not a good option because you might not get to 20/20 and might not be able to get to 20/20 with corrective lenses post-LASIK. For the average bear, slightly imperfect vision is probably not as big of a deal. I have astigmatism that my contacts (for near-sightedness) that is not corrected by my contacts and I get along.

        That being said, I haven’t seriously considered LASIK because I’m good with contacts (and glasses in the evening). But it would be nice to be able to read my alarm clock, see out the bedroom window at night, etc.

      2. That’s interesting. My friend who does Lasik totally recommends it over contacts (see my previous post regarding a contact-related eye infection…apparently these are very common).

    4. My vision stabilized at around age 17, got laser PRK done at 19, and now five years later I wake up amazed that I can see.

      I got my surgery done by my ophthalmologist, who was a leading refractive surgeon in our state. He told me when I first asked if I was a good candidate for surgery, “Yes, you’re fine, but just promise me you won’t go the the mall to get it done!” My corneas were too thin for traditional LASIK, so we went with the PRK. I don’t remember what my exact numbers were, but before the surgery I couldn’t focus on anything further than 6-8 inches from my nose.

      Side effects from my laser PRK: My depth perception has diminished slightly- this side effect mostly manifests itself when I’m trying to park without hitting anything (nothing yet!). I have noticed that I can get really bad dry eye when I’m outside BUT I always wore glasses so we don’t know if the dry-eye was there before the surgery and it’s just showing up now.

      Please talk to your ophthalmologist before going for a consultation with this LasikPlus place. My father’s boss and his wife went to an open house at a Lasik center (one of those ones that pops up in shopping centers) and she “won” a free surgery and he “won” half-off a surgery. They’ve both had numerous follow-up procedures because the center botched the first surgery. Thus my doc’s telling me to not go to the mall. Your doc should know if the place has a good reputation, or if you should stay far away from it.

    5. I just had LASIK in my right eye and PRK in my left eye done one month ago. My prescription in my right eye was -7.25 and in my left eye was -7.50(with an astigmatism). I was a little anxious like you about surgery and all, and I have to say it is completely worth it. I went to a very well-regarded refractive surgeon in San Francisco, whom I strongly recommend if you happen to be in the Bay Area. The cost for both eyes was about $6000, which I know is more expensive than many other doctors, even in this high COL area. This price does come with lifetime re-dos if my vision changes and I need a touch-up surgery. I was willing to pay more to go with a surgeon who had phenomenal reviews all around and came highly recommended by, well, everyone.

      The surgeon and the other doctors in the office made me feel comfortable from my first consultation. Ask lots of questions and make sure that the surgeon has performed LOTS (and I mean LOTS) of procedures before you because that is how they perfect their craft. Also, ask to read lots of patient surveys and reviews to see what others’ experiences have been. Intra-LASIK technology, which didn’t exist even a decade ago, takes away much of the human error that caused potential problems with LASIK in the past. I truly can’t recommend it enough!

      1. $6k is a really good price for both eyes! Mine was $4300 in 2007, and that doesn’t include follow-up surgeries.

    6. My father (in his early 60s) and brother (early 30s) both had Lasik done a few years ago, and both were at least -8. Both are extremely happy with it, but my father now has to wear reading glasses because while the Lasik fixed his distance vision, they weren’t able to fix the close-up vision problems that comes with age. My vision is nowhere near as weak as theirs, and my prescription has kept changing, so I’ve been told by several different doctors that I’m not a good candidate yet. IIRC the last one told me he likes to see 5 years without change before he’ll recommend the procedure. Not sure if there is an industry standard or consensus, but right now I’m doing fine with contacts (for astigmatism) and glasses, though I’ve recently been scared into taking my contacts out every night (I used to wear them for weeks or a month at a time) by the prospect that this practice could lead to new blood vessels forming and creating a) permanent bloodshot looking eyes with visible blood vessels, and b) permanent spotty vision from your eye seeing the blood vessels. The opthomologist used more technical/medical descriptions of course, but that’s what I took away from it!

    7. I had Lasik in 2000, when I was 37. Went from about -8.5 in both eyes to -1.5. What my surgeon told me is that Lasik will not keep you from needing reading glasses when you reach middle age, and he was right.

      I had haloing and dry eyes for about 6 months, and I still wear glasses to drive, but I would do it again in a heartbeat. I basically went from not being able to see my own feet to being able to function without glasses. I no longer have nightmares based on things looking creepy in the night because of bad vision. When you are severely myopic, the Bogeyman is real and lurks in the bathroom at 4am!

      Several friends with either perfect vision or only mild myopia just can’t believe that I still wear glasses after spending ~$5000 on eye surgery. If you have never been close to legally blind, you will never understand what a life changer it is to finally be able to SEE. My glasses now are thin and I pick cute frames in fun colors rather than ones that can accommodate super thick lenses.

      The procedure itself was painless, but a bit nerve-wracking. You will be awake with your eyes open, and the surgeon will be hovering over you with instruments and lights. I was given a Valium beforehand, which really helped. What they don’t tell you is that sometimes you can smell your eyeball cooking from the laser, at least I did. Gross!

      Most people have very little pain during the recovery, but I had intense pain for several hours because I didn’t think I needed to fill the Vicoden prescription. And once the pain started, I couldn’t go out to get the meds! So either have your pain killers ready, just in case, or have a friend who can help you ASAP.

      Lasik is surgery, and no one else can make the decision for you about whether it is worth the risks. But it was absolutely the right decision for me.

  39. Hey mamabear – just to follow up on the conversation from last weekend, I tried to find the Zia eyecream at Whole Foods but mine doesn’t carry it. I was a little skeptical about it anyway because the ingredients (that I found online) sounded like it had a lot of scent and I am bothered by scent in skin products. So I went to Target today and bought the Neutrogena eye cream to try. It says ophthalmologist tested so I figured it would be easier on the eyes. Just put it on and so far so good. No eye stinging and it feels soothing. No idea if it’ll actually work but at least it’s not irritating!

    1. Thanks NOLA! I am liking my La Prairie eye cream so far, but it’s not great under makeup, so I only use it at night. I bought a little tube of Estee Lauder Verite eye cream, which is supposedly irritant-free and it works OK under my makeup. Pro – does not make my makeup or eyeliner run. Con – does nothing to alleviate undereye puffiness.

      However, before all of this with the eye makeup remover and the eye cream searches I had red, flaky, irritated eyelid skin, so this is all a huge improvement.

      I settled on the Neutrogena liquid eye makeup remover as the best so far (out of four tried) so maybe the Neutrogena eye cream will be a good complement. I will look for it. Thanks for the heads up!

      1. Interesting! I would never have thought of Estee Lauder because I think of them as being scent-heavy. I had problems a few years ago with my eyeliner ending up under my eyes at the end of the day (especially in the summer – brutal heat and humidity). I switched to Prescriptives deluxe eye pencil and it has never run. Prescriptives supposedly went out of business but you can still buy it online.

        I have had problems with redness, scaliness under the inner corner of my eyes. I hate it because concealer gets caught in it and looks terrible, no matter how much I pat it on rather than smoothing it. I’m hoping this eye cream will help!

        1. Yeah, I had negative associations with Estee Lauder too, but they have this new relatively limited line of products, Verite, made for sensitive skin. I got the recommendation from a friend. I’ve only tried the eye cream from the line, and as I said, I don’t think it’s a miracle cream. But it is definitely not irritating to me, which is good enough for me at this moment.

  40. Ladies, I just realized that it was roughly a year ago that I posted here asking for help after my husband left me. You guys were so awesome – so wonderful and supportive, and so great about assuring me that there was light at the end of that tunnel.

    A year on, I couldn’t be happier. The truth is, I’m happier than I was at any point during my marriage – I’d lost something of myself, trying to keep him from leaving (even if I hadn’t consciously realized he was drifting away). I can’t thank you guys enough, and I can only hope that I’m able to do for someone else what you all did for me.

    4. cbackson, you’ve already given much back to this group. I’m glad you’re doing better and that you are happy.

      1. Ditto! cbackson, you are awesome and such a great addition to this community.

    5. Just the other day, I thought “cbackson…she got divorced. Wonder how she’s doing?”

      Glad for the update. Glad you are doing well!

    6. So wonderful! You sound like me 6 years ago. I didn’t even realize how completely miserable I was until I let go of the marriage and realized how relieved I was. I am now happy, confident, and independent, which I never was in my marriage. I hope you are all of that, too!

Comments are closed.