Weekend Open Thread

WHBM Stripe Knit Moto JacketSomething on your mind? Chat about it here.

Happy weekend!  This stripe knit moto jacket looks like a lot of fun — the different panels, the princess seams, the snap-down lapels… all very cool.  It’s available in regular (almost totally sold out) and petite sizes for $140.   WHBM Stripe Knit Moto Jacket



  1. gah!!! I have been obsessing about getting a fun moto jacket this is killing me…

    also, NOLA made me see this amazing vegan ‘leather’ with a knit hood that was tempting me and i Still. Want. So. Bad.

    • hoola hoopa :

      That’s seriously cute.

      • Yes, it is! I even took a picture of it to send to Susedna because it is so her style.

        • omg i SO take it back. I got the wrong link. THIS is the one i was looking at, bc it has the grey hood. And is actually a fair bit cheaper.


          and i also kind of love it in the light grey. AAHHH someone stop me!

    • Zora, how about this one? http://www.charlotterusse.com/product/Hooded-Faux-Leather-Moto-Jacket/254345.uts?affiliateCustomId=953202411&source=PJ_AD%3AZ%3ACHIC&clickId=894521290&affiliateId=20648

      • I’ve been considering getting this one in denim from the Gap but the sleeves are oddly lined and I am not sure how comfortable that will actually be. I tried it on though and it’s super cute and very flattering, for anyone who’s looking for a different take on this sort of thing…


      • I really like the asymmetrical zip style, but looking over there i found this one! OH NO, I think it might have to happen! thanks A LOT Bonnie!! ;o)


    • I just got this one. It’s super comfy and when it’s zipped up I feel very science fiction.


    • Gap have some fun moto jackets at the moment too

  2. Anonattorney :

    Did anyone read that Slate article chastising the trend of books/articles encouraging women to be more confident? Link to follow for those who are curious.

    I read it and found it very irritating. The author basically says (in my opinion) that we shouldn’t be encouraging women to be more confident because overconfident male CEOs cause too much inequality. I was curious whether other people had thoughts on it.

    It also ties in very well to the Atlantic article that Kat posted in the news roundup.

    • I haven’t read it but that makes no sense. If we also had ‘overconfident’ female CEO’s, then by the logic, they would be “unequally” pushing women candidates, which would then balance out the male CEO’s “unequally” pushing male CEO’s and BOOM, equality. (which isn’t what actually happens anyway but just going with the flawed logic the article sounds like it’s pushing). Nobody is going to start telling men to be LESS confident (hahhahahaha) so I’m not sure what plausible alternative there is.

    • amberwitch :

      I thought it was kind of annoying and sanctimonious. It is hardly the same as objecting to objectifying men because although it is ‘more equal’ to objectify both gender, it would preferable not to objectify anyone.

    • Anonattorney :

      The inequality she is talking about is the gap between CEO pay and average workers’ pay. She is saying that we have overconfident sociopaths running our companies and they are making decisions that increase the wealth of the elite at the expense of the little guy. Then she makes the conclusion that if we encourage women to be more confident, we are essentially cosigning the behavior of our sociopathic male CEOs. I just don’t get her second step at all.

      • Sociopathy is much more common in men. So there you go.


        Yeah, that’s an amazing leap of logic.
        If A, then B. So if B, then…X! Wait, what?

    • Yay! Open thread’s! I love open thread’s! And I agree with Sadie. But I do think that a man should NOT make more then a woman if they do the same work. The manageing partner makes alot more then me, but his dad founded the firm back in 1949, so that is why the manageing partner is the manageing partner and he get’s to manage the firm b/c he own’s most of it. But I think that I have become the most IMPORTANT partner b/c I do most of the billeing, and ALL of the WC billeings, and I am bringeing in new CLEINT’S all the time so that the firm is groweing while for many year’s it was NOT (acording to Dad, who audited the book’s), so soon Dad want’s me to ask the manageing partner if I can BECOME the JUNIOR MANAGEING PARTNER, so that after the manageing partner RETIRE’S (which NOW won’t be so soon with a new baby comeing) that I can be the NEXT manageing partner, if that makes sense.

      So we women have to stand up for what is right for us, and lean in when we have to, and make sure we exploit all of our skill’s to be promoted otherwise we will just be another pretty face in the office, dad say’s. And he is right. Even about my tuchus, b/c I know that I need a smaller tuchus to be a sucess in business and the law even w/o dad telling me my tuchus is to big.

      So to all of the HIVE, I wish a very happy Easter and also Passover to those still celebrateing it. I personaly have STOPPED eateing Matza b/c all of it is now in my tuchus! FOOEY!

  3. Anonattorney :

    Link: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/04/16/the_confidence_code_another_self_help_book_for_rich_successful_women.html

  4. To add to articles, someone just posted this on fb and I think my mind is blown: Brene Brown on vulnerability in the workplace.


    basically i think i need to read this about 50million times, because this is like my main issue, i just realized. Most of my anxiety I think comes from feeling like I shouldn’t ever be vulnerable at work, I should feel like I’m the absolute best in the world at everything I do. I think this needs to be my new bible.

    Anyone else have thoughts on this?

    • I have not read the article…but in my experience (working for last 6 years…so not too experienced either), I have been better rewarded for the work for which I felt extremely vulnerable…and to me vulnerability is the possibility of failure…especially in front of people..

      I am not a extroverted person…but my manager forced me to work in an area where people are always watching over your shoulders…it was extremely stressful for me in the beginning..as I was new and was working with much more experienced people. Due to this assignment, I also got an opportunity to see how other senior engineers whom I respect a lot and see them as role models work…and guess what…they also made mistakes..a lot of mistakes..but the difference was they didn’t shy away because they made mistakes, they just rectified it and moved on, they didn’t keep feeling bad about the mistakes they made and they succeeded.This was a very valuable lesson to me. I try not to take failures very seriously. I try not to make mistakes,but if it happens, so be it. Just correct them and move on..

      Recently I was involved in a project with big risks and big rewards too. The entire team was working very hard. We were at the brink of failure, everybody started brushing up their resumes too (as we were guaranteed to lose our jobs if the project failed). After a month of round the clock work, we are back in the game and very positive that we will succeed and we are on our way to recognition and awards in the company for the innovations in the project

      So yes…I think you need to be vulnerable if you want to reach your full potential..

    • I fangirl so hard over Brene Brown. Totally adore her.

    • Yeah, I have read two of her books and I think she’s right about vulnerability everywhere, really. As for the work context specifically, I think she’s being kind by not straight-up laughing at the people who tell her they ‘don’t do’ vulnerability–it’s such a self-delusion. We all begin and (usually) end our lives in a state of total dependence on others. The tough act so many of us play in between is just that, an act. It’s like saying you don’t want emotions to get involved at work after you’ve just screamed at someone for making a mistake on a report. No emotion there, right?

      I have found that my work has been a lot more rewarding since I let myself be more vulnerable, which means admitting when I don’t get something or am unsure how to handle a situation. It’s also left me with way, way better relationships with colleagues. There have definitely been some who don’t want to meet me there, but increasingly I just try not to work with that type.

      • Wow I love this. Just like i love everything you write, Monday!

        I definitely think for me, i’ve been holding myself back a lot from trying things or putting myself out there for better jobs, because I’m scared of being in a situation where I ‘won’t know what I’m doing’… I clearly need to get her book, heading to the bookstore now. ;o)

        • Wow, definitely read it! And report back on your thoughts. The idea of avoiding all jobs that may make you feel like you don’t know what you’re doing just sounds like a lot of pressure on yourself, and ruling out lots of potentially great experiences. EVERYONE ends up in situations in which they don’t know what they’re doing, both in work and outside. Again, the people who tell you they don’t are just facing a different (worse, if you ask me) struggle with themselves. Good luck!

          • Yeah, sounds like I really need to think about this. And i have PLENTY of time for reading now! silver lining! ;o) I will totally check back to talk about it with you!

  5. My college-student daughter broke her iPhone and wants to replace it cheaply. People on here have said that they bought them cheaply like for a $1. Has anyone done this? Where did you buy yours? (Can’t remember if it was Craigslist or Ebay or through the cellphone provider.) How do you make sure that the phone can be used, is not stolen etc.? I’m not totally clueless about iPhones but don’t know much.

    • When I broke my last phone, I bought a use one off Amazon. It wasn’t $1 (it was also an Android), but I only paid ~$100 for something that would otherwise have cost me $600 from Verizon. I am sure there are cheaper ones if you want an older model. Several sellers have reviews you can check, and Amazon itself also sells used phones. There’s a much lower chance you will get a stolen phone than if you go on CL.

      Technically when a phone gets stolen, your carrier can put the phone’s ID on a list of stolen phones, but obviously this can be circumvented by a determined hacker.

      • Sorry, amend that point about Amazon selling used phones. There are sellers on Marketplace, but I don’t think Amazon itself sells phones. My husband did sell his used phone to Amazon though, I think. Not sure what they do with them!

      • hellskitchen :

        Did you buy an unlocked one or a Verizon specific one? I am looking for Android too and would love to get a used one that can work on Verizon. Would you mind sharing which seller you bought it from? Thanks!

        • Verizon specific. You can search for the exact carrier you need on Amazon. I can’t remember the name of the seller unfortunately. I basically just went with the one with the best reviews (and I think I paid maybe a $10 premium for doing that). This was over a year ago.

    • I doubt you will be able to find an iphone for $1 although you can buy them used on ebay, especially if you’re ok with an older model. There is always a risk that a stolen phone is being sold.

      • I got my iPhone 5C for $49.99 at Target.

        • I think that price is only if you sign a new contract or are due for an upgrade.

      • What do people do with phones they’ve replaced? I have not had my smartphone long enough to replace it. Maybe ask around if any friends have iphones sitting around, that will tide the daughter over until she’s due for a new contract/upgrade?

        • I have sold an old Iphone on Craigslist. If you factory reset them they are safe to resell as far as I know.

        • Anonymous :

          When I upgrade, I always keep my old one as a backup and then sell the old-old one that had been serving as my backup. I don’t get as much money for it as I would if I didn’t keep a spare and just immediately sold my prior phone when upgrading, but for me it’s worth the peace of mind to have a backup. It’s also really convenient to have an out-of-contract phone, because I had AT&T unlock it and I can put foreign SIMs in it when I travel abroad–it cost 20euro for an Italian SIM with unlimited data, vs. the $100+ it would have cost for me to get an international data plan on AT&T for the amount of data I used. Also, if it got stolen, I wouldn’t have been nearly as upset as if my primary phone had been.

          Anyway, I ramble because I get the sense from Apple boards and from when I was searching how to get the foreign SIM that a lot of people keep the prior model as a backup. With the 6 due to come out in September/October, OP may be able to find someone willing to part with their backup a few months early for a bit more $ than they could get in September when we all flood the market with our 4 models. It’s not going to be $1 though–like someone mentioned, those deals are typically for people who are out of contract signing a new 2 year agreement.

          • I definitely like the idea of having a backup. Apple now sells “phone insurance”, but it’s a little pricy at $7 per month.

        • See above: You can sell it to Amazon in return for a gift card. They probably don’t pay quite as much as some of the other companies doing this, but I feel like there’s less chance of hassles with selling with someone of their size/reputation. My husband has done this with his last 2 iPhones, and gets enough each time to buy the new one (under contract).

        • In our family we pass them down – so I’ve now got my Mum’s old iPhone 4 – people without teenage/ college age children might just store them so asking around would be a good bet.

        • We’ve had an easy time selling at the Eco machines that some malls have. The amount that they’ll give is less than selling it yourself, but you don’t have to deal with the actual selling part.

    • Contact apple via 1 800 apl care and tell them phone is broken and they can tell you if a retail store close to you can repair it or if you will need to replace the whole phone. While it won’t be a dollar you can guarantee it will continue to work after repair replacement anf buy the accidental damage warranty if you wish.

      • Apple will probably do a “replace out of warranty” for $199. At least, they did for my phone.

  6. AnonLawMom :

    Two Question for the Hive:

    1) For non-blondes that don’t want to rock grey hair: when would you/did you start coloring your hair? Not in terms of age but in terms of # of greys, etc.

    2) I am going to dinner with my husband at a club we recently joined that is conservative and a sort of networking type place. We are on the younger side of the members there. My husband says I should wear a dress that is conservative. Well, I have three kinds of dresses in my wardrobe: work/structured, casual maxi, and sexy. None seem to really fit the bill. Any ideas? Any recommendations from Nordies would be great!

    • just a random thought: wear one of the sexy dresses with a shrug/cropped sweater on top?

    • Curious about #1 myself but
      2) Why not a structured work dress? If it’s a networking opportunity than work clothes are very appropriate.

    • Work/structured dress. Or a wrap dress. Something in a non-work color.

    • Former Partner, Now In-House :

      1. When the greys were near my face in sufficient numbers to freak me out. (Early 40s).

      2A. If you will be looking for business, a work dress that is on the “pretty” side.

      2B. If only your husband will be looking for business, something sexy. As my very good friend (15 years older than 1) said when I complained that many people who know my husband and his former wife think that he married a young trophy wife when in reality I am the same age as he and as she, “If they think you’re 25, take advantage while you still have it!”

    • No idea about the second question, but for #1, I have a small amount of gray so far and I get blondish highlights and they just blend in with the highlights. So far, I don’t have to go with overall color.

    • My hair is auburn/brown with reddish undertones.

      1) My friend found my first grey when I was 23 (I was sitting below her in the sun, and she yanked it out.) I started coloring about every eight weeks (matching my normal color) when tweezing stray grays was too much (about age 29). I am now 35 and I have to go every five weeks.

      I maintain my natural color. I was terrified of being a hair color virgin, so I found a woman at a salon who specializes in color, and she is fantastic. People have absolutely no clue that I color my hair, and that’s how I want it.

      2) As to 2, I think you could “fun” up a work dress with more casual jewelry and a nice cardigan.

      • That is my story almost exactly. And what a giant pain it is to get my color done so often! (Going all gray would most definitely NOT compliment my skin tone, as cool as it looks on some other women).

        I think my hair would be about 25% gray now if I weren’t coloring it. Have you found any good products to smooth down those petulant little new hairs that pop up from time to time? They are so wiry! I can’t get them to sit down and it drives me crazy when I want to do a slicked back ponytail.

        Ugh. First World problems, I guess.

    • I’m not sure if you need something for daytime or evening, but I can’t imagine something along these lines would be too out of place, with a cardigan if needed, just in case. http://tinyurl.com/n8q7jno

      • And on an aside, now that I am looking at Nordstrom’s dresses, I desperately want this one for the summer: http://tinyurl.com/kg4gqgw

      • AnonLawMom :

        That one caught my eye too!

    • Miz Swizz :

      I’ve got a similar dilemma re: #2 but my event is tonight! I realized I have work dresses and wedding-appropriate dresses but nothing in between.

    • I’ve been coloring my hair since 16, so not a totally fair question. But for grey coverage, that began when there were more than a few grey hairs. Also, they weren’t symmetrical or evenly scattered around — mostly on one temple (weird). Then they started coming in around my forehead (also weird). My hair is naturally very dark brown, so grey is VERY noticeable, & I touchup at home every 6 weeks. I’ve been dyeing so long, so I’m good at it. Even showed my mom how (her grey came in much more salt & pepper, so if the pattern or timing is genetic, I sure didn’t get that from her side).

    • Once I had a dozen grey hairs in my part, I started coloring.

      Re question #2, I would probably wear a work dress if I was worried about the place being a conservative, networking place. I don’t have any issues with wearing a “sexy” dress to such a location, but if you (not your husband) are concerned about it, your business casual wardrobe will probably be appropriate.

  7. Do anyone have recs for websites/forums to discuss books?

  8. Baconpancakes :

    A friend of mine is graduating from law school this May, and I wanted to give her a <$60ish gift that will be more meaningful than a nice pen. Any suggestions?

    • Business card holder or something similar for her office
      Professional stationery for business notes
      One friend gave me a gift certificate to michael’s to put towards framing my diploma, which was a really nice gesture, but then forced me into getting it from there.
      A frame or cute piece of wall art to hang in her new office

      • I’m going to concur with the business card holder and personal stationary. I graduated from law school last year and got both as gifts and love them.

      • Yes! When I graduated law school, my aunt gave me one that had fleur de lis (because of New Orleans). It means a lot to me.

    • T. McGill :

      If you know her style, a nice pair of earrings that she can wear on interviews and to work.

  9. I posted about trying out the Old Navy Pixie pant and one commenter wanted to know my thoughts after wearing them for a while. I wore them around the house all day yesterday and I was so impressed with how they didn’t stretch out! I hear the sizing may be inconsistent from color to color, but for me, the black and red pants fit the same. I plan to get more dark/neutral colors. They remind me of the JCrew minnie pant a lot but I think they’re so much better. Minnie looked terrible on me. Only caveat: i have no butt and they fit my no butt. Idk how they’d look on someone with a bigger butt but sizing up would probably work

    • I got the Target version of this type of pant. I have a speed-skater figure — lots of hip and thigh (and can you call it a baby bump if the non-flat stomach is the result if a baby inhabiting it a while ago) and some stomach. The 6 fit me really well (I’m 5-4, 38 inch hips). I just couldn’t keep them (more of a “I don’t want the world to see all of this” than anything at issue with the pants — they weren’t tight at all, just spot on and nice and stretchy). So if anyone more curvy is looking, I would really suggest these (and they were about $25).

    • Well, darn. The butt thing rules out this option for me. Sigh. Back to the drawing board.

  10. Everyone who would care about my being here has left early. On one hand, I have plenty to do and really need the hours, as mine have been in the toilet this week. On the other hand, my sinuses are really acting up and making me feel crappy, and I would really like to head home early and hang out with the family.


    • OCAssociate :

      I’ll enable you: go home! You’ll have a crazy week soon where you end up making up those missed hours anyway.

  11. TJ: I am transitioning from white shoe i-banking to owning my own art gallery. And I hate shopping and need help. I have all the conservative basics and nothing fun or funky. Anyone in the hive feel like doing some vicarious shopping? Literally need a basically new wardrobe. Parameters: Look best in jewel tones, have good legs, don’t love my tummy/arms, and am pretty skinny (0-4, depending on brand). I have three boys under 5 so would hope for stuff that won’t be destroyed if it gets dirty/spit up on. Hoping to spend less than $2000. Thank you all in advance. (And in case anyone points it out — I know I am very very lucky to be able to make this transition. )

    • LeChouette :

      I feel like a set of matte jersey wrap dresses will work well for you – washable, flattering, hip

      • S in Chicago :

        That was my first thought exactly. And I would start pairing with interesting jewelry.

    • Zara blazers :

      Get thee to ebay and buy all of the Akris you can. It seems to be funky enough and of high enough quality for an art-gallery owner. [Do you need a good lawyer? Lots of us would love to help you out!] Also: the red 2-volume Art Law treatise is a fascinating read.

    • Wildkitten :

      Stitch fix would probably be good going forward (not for the initial all new warddrobe).

    • That sounds wonderful, congrats!

      I’ve always imagined that my art-gallery-owning self would wear cool black dresses with fabulously artistic statement jewelry…



    • I love flash sale websites for this.. Ideeli has had so many beautiful, colorful dresses and blouses lately. You can also play up your old wardrobe with statement jewelry. I love amrita singh bracelets but I also just amassed a huge jewelry collection from frequent online browsing.

    • Killer Kitten Heels :

      Art gallery owners (that I’ve met/encountered) tend to be all over the map, style-wise, so my vote would be for keeping the wardrobe neutral and investing in statement accent pieces – huge chunky necklaces, vibrant scarves, an armful of chunky bracelets, “statement” shoes, etc. You’ll still read “professional” to the buyers of art (who tend to be slightly more conservative), but also “interesting/cool” to the artists themselves.

      • Agree to a point. These types of clothes/accessories can wear you if they aren’t truly your style. Start with clothes you love, even if they don’t necessarily feel like what a gallery owner would wear, and let your style evolve.

  12. out of shape :

    I’m 25 and I haven’t worked out in over two years since I started my consulting job. I actually lost weight in the process but I just went to the doctor and my blood pressure was slightly high and though I’m skinny (skinny fat), I just feel like shit lately because I’m out of shape and have no muscle tone. A big reason why I don’t work out is because I have no routine when it comes to work. I’m at a different client every week, whether its locally or I’m traveling. Fortunately I only travel about 30% but even the local clients have me commuting over 2hrs/day. Any tips on motivation or getting started with this when I have no ability to set up a routine? The prospect of joining a gym sends my mind spinning because the logistics of it and money I’d waste seem absurd :( ..but then I also feel like working out at home simply wouldn’t happen.. I need to go somewhere. Sigh. I guess I’m seeking advice and ranting.

    • The NYTimes Sunday magazine published a one-page seven minute workout about this time last year. We do it when traveling becuse it’s fast and, if you’re traveling somewhere where it is really hot all day and night, you can do this in the hotel room instead of running outside.

      It might be a good place to start for you.

      • http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2013/05/09/the-scientific-7-minute-workout/

        • How did I miss this? I love it! I’m totally going to try it out next time I’m home after the gym closes or don’t feel like going down there.

          My current version of this is: 10 burpees + 10 push ups + 10 squats -> repeat 3 times -> finish with an extra set of burpees for a total of 100 movements. Seriously intense.

    • I’ve been trying a system (can’t say i’m there yet but I’m working on it), where I have some short workouts like the one Basics mentioned, and a couple of 20 min yoga videos saved on my computer. And the system is to leave my workout clothes and mat out in the morning. The MINUTE i get home, before i get into sitting and relaxing mode, I change and do one routine. My first goal is to do it one day a week. I figure once I have that habit down, I can come up with a new goal for a certain number of days per week and/or longer workouts. But the first step is just one day a week, one 10 minute workout when I walk in the door.

      you might read the books/articles out about ‘creating habits’ .. it’s really about creating the habit for yourself that is the hardest part.

      • The clothes being handy is key. We go to bootcamp very early in the morning. Like it is still dark out early. On the nights before bootcamp, I put my bootcamp clothes on the floor by my side of the bed so that they are right there when I wake up. Excellent point. I had forgotten about how much that helps.

    • Go to a yoga studio or zumba gym or fancy spinning studio or somewhere that lets you buy a class pack. Then you can use them when you’re home and not waste anything. When I travel I either use the hotel gym and/or do a fitness dvd that I bring (Barre Beautiful, usually) or find a local yoga studio near the client and drop in. If it’s nice, I’ll go for a jog. You can set up a routine, it will just have to be quite flexible. Mostly I think you have to find things that you think are fun and want to do.

    • Ex-consultant here. I traveled weekly for over 2 years. Here’s what I suggest:
      1) Force yourself to make a routine: I always stayed at hotels, so my routine (regardless of hotel) was using the hotel gym for a 10 minute morning workout every morning followed by an evening 30 minute workout after I get back. Always before dinner, and if I didn’t have any urgent deadlines, before any evening work. When I wasn’t travelling, I would walk home from the office and take myself on a 1 hour hike every weekend.

      2) Tell your manager your routine. Other people need to leave at 4PM to pick up their kids. You are doing a similar thing. “When I get back to the hotel, I work out for an hour, so I’ll be unavailable for that hour, but plan to finish my work directly after.” This prevents interruptions to your routine.

      Like I mentioned above, you need to commit to different things depending on where you are. For example, if you’re at a hotel, you will use the gym. If you’re home, you will go to the gym down the street. So regardless of where you are, you have a place set to work out.

    • mintberrycrunch :

      Highly recommend the T25 workout videos. System is by Shaun T, the Beachbody guy who does the Insanity workouts. They’re all only 25 minutes, but they’re challenging (although there’s also a person who shows modifications, so you can work up to the full routine if you’re out of shape when you start, like I was). I feel like I get a really good workout in 25 minutes, and over a week, I work all muscle groups, get cardio, etc. I’ve also had a lot more energy since starting. It’s easy to pop a DVD in my laptop no matter where I am, either first thing in the morning or right after work. I also second doing it right away when you get home/back to the hotel. I’m much less likely to work out if I do anything in between. The first phase requires no weights or anything, and the second phase only requires hand weights or an exercise band (which wouldn’t be hard to pack when traveling)

    • BankrAtty :

      Check out TurboFire! I think it’s really fun, and I generally hate workout DVDs (this is the first program I have stuck with). You can buy the series for $40-50 off ebay.

      • BankrAtty :

        I should also have mentioned that the only equipment required for turbo is a resistance band and a mat, so it’s ideal for traveling. Like T25, it’s a beachbody product.

    • Anon in NYC :

      First, get a personal trainer. The personal trainer will work with you to build muscle tone, and teach you to do things that you can do on your own in a hotel gym. He or she can teach you exercises, check your form, and give you workouts geared towards your needs (30 minutes, done in a hotel room without weights, etc.).

      Second, evaluate your schedule and determine when you can work out (both time of day and X number of days of the week). Be realistic about how many times a week you can work out – you don’t need to kill yourself when you’re starting out. My preference is to work out in the morning, because my schedule is otherwise crazy and I can’t guarantee that I’ll be able to exercise in the evening. My DH is not a morning person, but he shifted his exercise routine to the mornings and now also prefers it. If you’re not a morning person, this takes some getting used to.

      Third, if this is an option for you, try to find some group exercise classes. This is my go-to. I get bored working out by myself in a gym and I like someone telling me what to do. Once I re-discovered group exercise I began to really love working out. Maybe if you can find a pilates/yoga/bootcamp/barre Saturday or Sunday class that can be part of your weekly routine, that will be something to look forward to.

    • Miss Rumphius :

      This sounds totally infomercial-y, but I’ve been using Fitnessglo for a few months and really enjoy it. Basically it’s like Netflix for exercise classes and they have a good variety of classes (barre, cardio, strength, pilates, dance, HIIT, etc) in durations from 5 – 60 mins.

      There are other helpful features, too: it tracks your workouts so you can see weekly and monthly totals, and you can schedule classes for yourself so you get an email reminder ahead of time. Some classes do use basic home equipment (yoga mat and hand weights are the most common) but there are plenty that use body weight only.

      It’s been a great gym supplement for me because I can roll out of bed in the morning and start my workout a few minutes later. I know you said you weren’t sure about working out at home, but I’ve actually found its easier to work out at home than it is to pack for the gym. It’s $12/month, so it would definitely be cheaper to buy a few videos, but for me, the variety/features make it worth a little more, and it’s still much less expensive than the gyms in my area.

    • Can you start small by just taking 10- to 15-minute breaks during the day or breaking up your routine? I know I have trouble getting a block of exercise in sometime, so I’ll do 20 minutes in the morning, then 20 more at night or throughout the day. I have an exercise bike at home (>$170 from BJ’s) that I do in the morning to wake up, then I try to take a quick walk at lunch so I leave my desk chair at some point, then when I get home, I’ll take a spin around the block or more.

    • FedTaxAtty :

      You could also try the Nike Training Club or the PopSugar Fitness apps. Both have shorter routines, a lot of which are hotel room/gym friendly.

  13. Zara blazers :

    It looks like they come in SML sizes. On me, the S has really tight arms (particularly elbow and below; I have skinny arms and don’t think I could drive a car with the blazer on). The M is too big in the torso. I feel like for the quality (acrylic), I couldn’t justify the cost of item + alterations on the M. Did I just get an errantly-sewn S or is this just how it is with Zara (or items that come in SML sizes)?

    • espresso bean :

      I’ve found that Zara runs VERY small in the shoulders/arms.

    • That’s how Zara fits on me, too. I long for a brand that runs narrow in the torso and wide (or adequate, really) in the shoulders/arms. I will say that sometimes it’s worth trying on a few of the same size, since sometimes they’re slightly inconsistent.

    • This is probably true for most of their blazers but it’s why I like them – I have fairly narrow shoulders and most blazers look terrible on me because they just look like I borrowed them from someone else. I’d say try different styles, but otherwise just be glad that many other brands will probably work for you, whereas they don’t for me (and, you’re right, slimming arms is expensive!!!). FWIW, AT suits me terribly (no pun intended) so give them a shot?

      • I also find suits really tight in the arms/shoulders quite frequently, and Ann Taylor fits me GREAT, so I second AIMS idea!

  14. Small wedding venue in NYC :

    Hi, does anyone have suggestions/recommendations for planning a small wedding (20-30 ppl) in NYC? We just got engaged and plan on getting married this summer (August). I’m pretty clueless when it comes to weddings (have only been to 1 so far). I’m thinking of having the ceremony at a park (Central Park? Do I need a permit? Other parks/outdoor places you’d recommend?) followed by a dinner reception (Restaurants recs? Good food is important to me so willing to splurge there). For wedding dress, I plan on getting a knee-length dress (non-traditional) so I can wear it for other occasions. If anyone has tips/recs, or have done a small/non-traditional wedding before, please share your experience! Oh, and my budget is $5-10k. Thank you!

    • I’m not sure about NYC, but the hotel Monaco in Alexandria did a special two years ago that was a wedding package for 20 guests including dinner, 10 rooms, flowers, cake, ceremony and cocktail/hor’s doeuvres hour for like $6,000. Perhaps a small boutique hotel in NYC would put together a package for you. If you are “clueless” about weddings, it may be easiest to go with a venue where you can have the ceremony and reception, and that will provide most of the usual bells and whistles – the closer you get to one stop shopping the better, especially since you don’t have years to get it planned.

    • Anonymous :

      This is from another site, Dear Wendy. She threw a wedding in NYC. Had the ceremony in Central Park, went to a restaurant for the reception: http://dearwendy.com/how-i-threw-a-budget-wedding-in-new-york-city/

      • Anonymous :

        Oh and her budget was 10K! So it is possible! You just have to save on expenses like dress, hair/makeup, flowers, etc…

    • A friend of mine got married in CP. You technically do need a permit, it’s around $400. You can get the info on the nycparks dot gov website. If I may recommend a spot in the park, consider the Conservatory Garden on 105th and 5th – its like the Secret Garden from the books, total magic, and surprisingly empty most of the time.

      For a celebratory meal, not sure how much it costs, but it’s absolutely lovely and feels like Paris – consider Orsay on 75th and Lex (or thereabouts). It’s festive and lovely and you can rent the upstairs area all to yourselves. The food is delicious and the venue memorable. You could also look into the restored Tavern on the Green or the Boathouse, if you want to stay in the park….

      If you need flowers, I have had many a fabulous experience with Sterling Florist on 79th and York. Ask for Alex. You can usually save a lot of money on this by just saying you want a seasonal bouquet vs. going with some place that does “wedding flowers” exclusively, and this is just a regular florist that happens to do a very lovely job.

      I don’t think you’ll have trouble finding a dress since white dresses of all shapes seem to be a big thing now. I’d pair it with really fun shoes in a bright color like red, blue or pink, but that’s just me. If I can give you any one tip, find a photographer you really love who’ll share your vision for the day. From my experience with these things – it all goes by in a blur, and if you have photos you really love, it will make the memories that much sweeter.

    • I had my non-traditional wedding dress (red c*cktail dress) made at Angelo Lambrou in the East Village. The website looks really couture, but the store was very down to earth, and I got a custom dress for around $800 – admittedly, nine years ago. Highly recommend!

    • My friends got married in a stunning park that was on 6th Avenue about 10th St (just below the library). The wedding only was there, and then they did lunch at Gramercy Tavern. It was absolutely gorgeous, and was a great way to have a reasonable, small wedding in NYC. I think they reserved the garden through its conservancy…they were strict about how many people could come, but it was truly lovely.

    • AttiredAttorney :

      Check out the site A Practical Wedding if you have not done so already! They are a fabulous resource.

      • I tried to do what you describe 12 years ago, but bigger, and found the coordination/vendors bit tiresome. Ending up going to Swan Club just outside the city and it was lovely and SO EASY. visited once, all planning was done. that lovely heather garden up in the big park in washington heights wanted a $20,000 minimum for f&b… absurd. dream location is brooklyn botanical garden glass house, but that’s a NYC price venue.

  15. Soon-to-be-grad :

    A few questions for the open thread (great timing!):

    1. Recommendations for seamless underwear? I just bought new JCrew work pants that fit me great, but I get a lot of VPL. I don’t really like thongs (because of the wedgie factor), so those are out.

    2. My work wardrobe seems to consist mostly of suit separates that don’t really seem to match each other. What colors are your ‘staples’ for work separates? I assume having navy, grey, and black are all good options, but are there other colors that you find yourself wearing a lot? (Side note: I’m hoping to take my pencil skirts back to the place I bought them and have them show me the matching suit jacket, so hopefully that will help. Didn’t realize when I bought them that mixing same-color suit items that are not part of a set is such a faux pas!)

    • I heard hanky panky will elimiate the vpl

      • Baconpancakes :

        They do! And I hate thongs, but Hanky Panky is surprisingly comfortable.

    • Anonymous :

      I’ve not been able to find a true non-thong pair of underwear that totally avoids VPL. I have a big butt, so anything that stops halfway on the cheek leaves an obvious line of demarcation between restrained and unrestrained fat. This includes the laser cut ones. I’ve tried seamless boyshorts but without a bottom seam, they just roll up and leave a visible bump at the top of my thighs. The Shimera boyshorts have a bottom hem so they stay decently put, but the hem shows. I hated thongs too, but I’ve ended up going with them every day because I got sick of trying on 8 different styles of underwear to see if any of my non-thong styles could work with that particular pair of bottoms or dress. The thongs just work with everything, and don’t show.

      • I love, and laughed at, your description of “restrained and unrestrained fat.” :)

        • +1. as my friend with an exceptionally big (and wonderful) butt once said “i’ve worn a thong every day of my life since seventh grade because nothing else will fit my butt”.

          I love everything and anything with an unfinished lace hem. Victoria’s secret has so many options.. including lace hipsters except some kinds can ride up and become thongs. i pretty much wear thongs every day and occasional hipster or cheeky hipster. i dont notice the thong ever

        • me too. does anyone else kind of not care about vpl? yep, i’m wearing underwear folks. and it is cotton. i don’t wear super tight pants, and i just don’t really care if someone is examining me that closely they should not be, or they should not expect no vpl. i have a butt.

    • The Naomi & Nicole lace trim hipster changed my life–no VPL, EVER. And they’re cute and comfortable and stand up really well to machine washing and drying. http://www.kohls.com/product/prd-897504/naomi-nicole-lace-trim-hipster-a163-womens.jsp

    • I got a hipster pair from VS that almost completely eliminates VPL. Adore.me also has some but I’m not sure it will completely eliminate VPL; I have a pair from adore.me and there is a small bump bc of the stitching on the edges.

    • Anonymous :

      I like the Soma vanishing edge panties. Last weekend they were buy 3, get 2 free.

      • Zara blazers :

        I had something similar that target used to make. They were life-changing and have eliminated VPL on me.

    • anonyomous :

      Commando “Better than Nothing” line of thongs, boyshorts etc is my go to in nude with like silk dresses or pants where I need totally no VPL showing.

      • Soon-to-be-grad :

        Thank you all so much! These responses are all really helpful. (And the Soma pairs are still buy 3 get 2 free.) I haven’t decided yet which one I’m going to go with – so many great recommendations – but I really appreciate it.

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      The LuLulemon light as air hipster underwear is awesome. I’m not a fan of the company or paying $18/pair but they are the only truly seamless underwear that did not hurt my scar when I had surgery on my bikini line. Bonus, no vpl.

      Downside, I found the sizing inconsistent. I wear a size 6 and found a couple pairs fit more like 4’s, a couple like 8’s and a couple like 6. One came with a hole in it. Luckily, they took that one back. Their return policy sucks though and short of a defect (like the hole) I don’t think you can return underwear for size issues. Not sure you can try it on either. That really deters me from buying more since I can’t rely on the size to be consistent.

      They do stretch out a bit though so if they are too tight at first there may be hope.

    • darjeeling :

      I have about 20 pairs of these Uniqlo laser cut briefs and they are 100% seamless and so comfortable.

  16. PSA. Just got these flats and they are the most comfortable flats ever: http://www.saksoff5th.com/hidden-wedge-leather-ballet-flats/0493403245244.html?start=2#q=hidden+wedge&z=&x=hidden+wedge&start=1&location=240&slotLoads=1

    • !!!!!!! those are the exact same as the discontinued JCrew Cece flat! And cheaper. Thanks for posting I have a feeling I’ll end up with the nude ones. I love hidden interior wedges.

    • I got them in black, gold and blue!

      • Would you say they’re true to size? And does that mean they had more options in store? I haven’t been to Saks off Fifth but I think I have one pretty close to me

      • How are they size wise? I usually wear a 7 but sometimes need a 6.5 in round toe ballet flats.

      • I think they’re TTS. I got my usual 8.5. They’re a little loose but the 8 would have been too small.

        • Thanks for the sizing info. They seem so similar to the jcrew cece for less than half the price..im ordering all the colors

    • Ahh I’m totally buying these! Thanks for sharing!

      • Thanks for sharing! I got 3 pair (black, rose gold, nude). For orders over $75 you can apply the shipping code scrolling at the top of the page. I used SHIP75 and it worked. I ordered sz 7. Crossing fingers in re fit.

  17. Trial-appropriate tops :

    Vicarious shopping alert!

    I need some trial-appropriate tops to wear with my suits! All my trial tops are sleeveless, and I would prefer something with sleeves to wear under my suit jacket. Bare pits + jacket is not going to cut it anymore. I have two or three trials this year, one in a few weeks.

    I would like something with sleeves (length not important). I prefer a top with some drape. No button fronts! Preferably under $50 because I want to buy several. I live near every major store and outlet.

    • Ann Taylor, Loft and Limited are my go-tos. Unfortunately I think you’d have more luck finding tops with sleeves if you looked in fall and winter. I’m seeing a lot of cap sleeves which I don’t like on me. Everything on the Banana website was sleeveless. Ew.

      • Definitely spend some time at the sales racks. AT and Limited often have great finds in all sizes there and that way you’ll get winter season stuff.

        • Trial-appropriate tops :

          Sales racks are a good point. I live near a couple of outlet malls – I may head over there and check out the clearance section for those brands.

          • Outlets are definitely hit or miss. I dont like how some of these stores have “factory” stores at the outlet mall.. like JCrew Factory. They have some nice stuff but the quality and fit is nothing compared to actual JCrew.

            It seems like 1/3 of the Ann Taylor store near me is dedicated to clearance racks. And they often have an extra 40-60% off sale so you can really get a deep discount.

    • I would definitely try Target. Some of their drapeneck tees and print tops look lovely.

    • I’d also suggest Lands End. Their tops are a great quality.

    • Check out the Pendleton sale from the morning TPS report. Most are too frumpy but this one seems very Alicia Florick to me (i.e., sartorially awesome).


    • Check out Jcrew Factory – they have an everything 50% off sale right now and some very nice tops in the $30-40 range.
      I like this one:http://factory.jcrew.com/womens-clothing/shirts_tops/blouses/PRDOVR~41561/41561.jsp?color_name=apricot-mist

      • and these: http://factory.jcrew.com/womens-clothing/shirts_tops/blouses/PRDOVR~A4174/A4174.jsp?color_name=seaside-coral

      • Wildkitten :

        The apricot mist one has holes in the sleeves – they are like a lace netting, not good for trial. And the seaside coral one has a big cut out in the back which I guess is fine if you never ever ever take your jacket off ever.

  18. Brooks Brothers is having a Black Fleece flash sale, if you’re into that sort of thing. The clothes are very meh, but there are some stunning, uber-prep handbags, if that’s your thing.

  19. Anonattorney :

    I’m REALLY into the Tumi bags right now (on their website under Women’s Business, or Women’s Bags). They have an amazing kelly green, and a great rich orange leather. Spendy though.



  20. Senior Attorney paging Frugal Doc :

    Thank you so much for your input on my mom’s health situation! It turns out she has a compression fracture in her mid-spine in addition to the pre-existing arthritis. They say they can’t really treat it but are still going to do physical and occupational therapy to get her up and walking.

    I have a few questions and I wonder whether I could pick your brain just a little off-site? If you’re willing, could you drop me a line at SeniorAttorney1 at the gmail? (And if I’m overreaching, no hard feelings at all! I super appreciate your wise comments already!)

  21. Can I get a little love? I’m an unemployed 3L, graduating in a few weeks, who was just rejected from yet another job. Not just any job, but a job that I’ve basically been grooming myself for for years. Doesn’t help that I got the news while having lunch with a friend at Google/Facebook/LinkedIn/Apple, where it seems like basically everyone can write their own ticket after that. I might have maybe cried for a minute in the bathroom.

    • Wildkitten :

      You will be just fine. There will be another job for you.

    • Awww, I’m sorry! It seems to be that kind of day, since I just got laid off. Yeah. Super Fun Times.

      At least it is genuinely about money not performance, but ugh. So, bad-job-news-commiseration and internet hugs!!!

      • Oh no! I’m so sorry! I don’t know if you want to have drinks/coffee with a real internet stranger, but if you do, I think we’re in the same place (at least for the weekend…).

        • Not sure when I’ll check back tonight, but if you do, email me at lfgttb at google’s mail service.

        • aww!! I would love to meetup if you want to, clearly have nothing to do this weekend now ;o) We can have some inperson ‘life sucks’ commiseration. I’ll send you an email and we can see if we can schedule something.

      • Wildkitten :

        Zora – now you have plenty of time to look for a new job! And it’ll be easier for a job to hire you since you are immediately available. I think this will work out well for you – since you wanted out of there anyway.

      • UGH! That sucks (even if you were seriously over that job). Here’s to bigger and better things.

    • You will get another job, and you will really appreciate it when you do. This is not a reflection on you.


      I was in your position and I started a job the November after I graduated that turned out to be my dream job, but I just applied to the job posting because I was desperate.

  22. Ok, this is silly, but could I have some advice/tough love/commiseration? I’m getting married in 4 months. I know it’s silly to fall into the “I need to lose weight for my wedding” trap, but I would love to be, like, 5-10 pounds lighter. Apparently I can’t make that happen because today I started out with really healthy oatmeal with blueberries. Then had Five Guys burger + fries for lunch, and I actually fried my own tortilla chips so I could have tortilla chips and an entire avocado for dinner.

    By the way, I’m at the mid-high range of my normal, I’m-not-upset-with-it weight right now, I’m healthy, my fiance thinks I’m sexy as hell for some reason. So why is it so important to me that I look freshman-year-of-college-skinny (i.e., be the bottom of my normal range) at my wedding?

    • Second Thig :

      I can’t really help at all, but I did want to let you know you are not alone. I’m getting married next year and am already thin with a body I generally like, but still, I plan to lose at least 10 pounds prior to my wedding. I’m not really sure HOW this is actually going to happen, because I really love food and can eat pretty much whatever I want without gaining (too much) weight, so losing weight is really not my forte. I always start out with good intentions and then I’m like, “Wait a second, fries are delicious. I love wine! Give me chocolate NOW” and it all goes downhill.

      As for why I feel the need to lose weight prior to my wedding, I have no idea where it comes from, but I definitely feel the need to do it. Maybe it’s the pressure of knowing the pictures are going to be around forever? Maybe it’s hearing since you were four years old that your wedding is supposed to be OMGTHEBESTDAY and shouldn’t you look the best you’ve ever looked? Maybe it’s knowing you’re going to be the center of attention and wanting to look good from every angle? All I know is losing weight is something I plan to accomplish as part of the wedding planning process, right along with booking a caterer and finding a dress. Why that is? I’m not really sure.

      • Yup, this is exactly where I am. I have never successfully dieted, and because I generally can eat a TON and only gain a little weight (and then stay steady at the high end of my range), I’ve never really had a huge incentive to try to lose weight. I feel guilty for not losing weight and guilty for feeling guilty! And objectively, I’m not sure there will be a huge difference in me vs. 10 pounds lighter me in pictures, but it really feels like there will be.

        Senior Attorney and roses, thank for giving me the pep talk (that I might actually be happy with getting married with exactly the body I have now). Accepting that is certainly something I have to work on.

    • Senior Attorney :

      In addition to the very good points made above, let me invite you to consider how it will feel to look at all those wedding photos over the years, showing a not-really-how-you-look-in-real-life version of you. I dunno… I just feel like if you’re normally happy with your weight and your appearance the way you are, why wouldn’t you want to look like your real self in your wedding photos?

    • For next time, have you tried baking your tortilla chips? I cup tortillas (usually corn but I’ve done flour as well) into wedges, spray with cooking spray and sprinkle with a little salt. Then bake at 400 for I think about 10 minutes. They are plain but great for dipping. Or add some seasonings.

      • Ha, next time I will bake the corn tortillas. I usually never fry anything at home but for some reason, salty crunchiness + avocados led me astray!

  23. Because the WIC (Wedding Industrial Complex) says everyone should want to be “perfect” on their wedding day and assumes being the skinniest version of you is part of that. Don’t listen. If you want to eat healthier in general and your wedding day is a motivator, great. But don’t lose weight just for the day. If you do – or indeed, if you depart from your ordinary personality at all just to satisfy an arbitrary definition of “perfect” – you’re going to look back forever and not recognize the woman you see in those pictures. Or worse, feel like you can never live up to the woman you see in the pictures because it’s not YOU.

    Your wedding day is about making a lifelong commitment to your partner, and fulfilling any sort of traditions that are meaningful to you that are associate with that commitment – don’t let anyone else convince you that anything else is required. Be YOU and you will be beautiful.

  24. (that was for anon right above)

  25. I’ll repost this on a Monday thread but I have a clothing crisis!

    I have an internship interview week after next for a banking group and I’m having a confidence wobble about my outfit. I have a Banana Republic plaid lightweight wool suit jacket from last spring, and then either a grey Boden Chancery Dress, or a Hobbs dress which is similar to the Hay dress but purple (matches the purple thread in the plaid jacket).

    I’m leaning towards the grey + grey because of sleeves and because it seems more formal, but my biggest worry is whether these combinations (with black bag, black shoes, 60denier black tights) are equivalent to a suit and smart enough?

    • Do yourself a favor and buy a real interview-appropriate suit. I wouldn’t wear that to an interview unless you absolutely had to. It is not equivalent to an interview suit.

    • Killer Kitten Heels :

      It’s banking – you need a suit.

    • Anonymous :

      Nope not good enough sorry. You need to buy a real suit for your interview.

      • query-
        is a sheath plus jacket okay if they ARE part of a suit? As in, from the same suiting line, you just got the sheath and jacket instead of skirt and jacket?

        • Blonde Lawyer :

          I say yes and always thought they were more formal but I know others on here disagree with me.

    • oh yeah you’re going to need a real suit if youre interviewing for banking/accounting/legal/consulting. it doesnt even have to be high end just make sure it matches and fits

    • 3rding/4thing/whatever the “wear a real suit” comments. And do not wear tights. Wear hose.

      • In the UK, “tights” is the terminology for what we call “hose” in the US.

        • Anonymous :

          And in the UK, like here, 60 denier is going to be opaque tights. I also vote sheer nude hose for a banking interview in April. I think you could get away with tights in sub-freezing temps, but not now.

    • Olivia Pope :

      You need a full suit. I would take your BR jacket to your nearest BR and see if any suiting bottoms from this season match. They may have used the same fabric!

      If not, then bite the bullet and buy a full suit.

      • Killer Kitten Heels :


        Also, Jones New York has decent suits that can usually be had on sale for around $99. The pants are unlined, but other than that minor nit, I’ve been really happy with the quality/cut/fit/wearability of the JNY suits.

    • Thanks all. I was afraid you’d say that. Now to persuade my mum that I do need a full suit :/
      If I can’t find one that fits well is that combination better than an ill fitting suit?

      • anonymous :

        Nope. A not-great-fitting suit would be better than not understanding how to dress for a professional interview.

    • Just a thought – I’m in the UK, I don’t know if that makes a difference. I wouldn’t even know where to buy hose

      • Department stores should stock hose. It may often be with the intimates rather than the socks, if those are stocked in different parts of the store.

      • anonyomous :

        Hose is another word for nylons, stockings, pantyhose, tights that are the same color as your leg. Basically you look bare skinned but aren’t because you have on nylons. Kate Middleton wears them all the time. Here in the US despite most people not having to wear them (besides for work) you can find them in most department stores, places like Target and most corner drugstores like Walgreens/CVS. There are better brands than others but if its just for one day for one interview, pretty anything will work.

      • Stockings or Bare Legs? question from Silvercurls :

        Lily, I think by “hose” Anon99 at 12:09 pm means “pantyhose” or “stockings” or “tights” in British English (thin, sheer, nylon, “flesh-colored”). Try Marks & Spencer. No offense if I’m pointing out the obvious–my awareness of this goes comes from my childhood when one of my parents worked briefly in London. Good luck in the interview.

        Question for the hive: Does the debate among professional women re whether to wear stockings or go bare-legged extend beyond the U.S.? This issue has never applied in my own life; I’m asking so the Collective We doesn’t misguide Lily student.

        • Killer Kitten Heels :

          I’ve always lived/worked in the Northeast, and interviews/formal workplaces always require hose. It’s old fashioned, and silly, but I’d never wear a skirt without hose to a law/banking/finance-type interview. I figure, even if it turns out it’s not required, there’s no way to know that going into the interview, and no one is going to be offended that I chose to wear hose when I didn’t need to. (Again, I think this is formal/stuffy industry specific – you very well might offend a fashion magazine editor by wearing nude hose if it’s not “in” this season or something. :-) )

  26. I was catching up on posts and read Senior Attorney’s wise words on the Thursday TPS post. She had said there are only two kinds of undesirable traits in a mate – deal breakers and things you live with because you love the person (price of admission). There is no 3, things you will change if you work hard enough at the project.

    I think those are wise words but wanted to put a question out there. What about things your mate also finds undesirable about himself, wants to change, but sometimes relapses on it? So, for example, if he thought said behavior was perfectly okay it would be a number 1 deal breaker. But because it is something he is working on and agrees is not a positive quality in himself, it falls into number 2 because it is not an all the time occurrence, when it happens he is remorseful and works harder and not doing it. Part of that is me “changing” him but more of that is him wanting to change. These can be big things or little things in a relationship. It can be someone that leaves clothes all over the floor or it can be someone struggling with anxiety.

    I ask because my marriage has a few of these areas going both ways. I agreed to work on a couple things for him and he worked on a few things for me. We both slip up sometimes and it causes some fights. If we refused to work on those things they would have been dealbreakers. We appreciate each others work in those categories and realize the other isn’t perfect and that mistakes are okay.

    Do you all allot yourself this other category – so long as the other person wants to change – or does it still have to fall under number 1 or number 2?

    Lastly, I was confused by your final statement, senior attorney, that the ladies should stop changing for the guys too. If we are changing that means change can occur and it is not just 1 or 2. Unless you are saying it is just 1 or 2 with women towards men.

    I agree too many relationships fail because someone refuses to see someone for who they really are. I disagree, however, that a relationship is doomed when two people agree to work on bad behaviors together.

    • Wildkitten :

      If he wants to change but relapses and you are okay with that it’s a 2. If he wants to change and relapses and it’s a deal breaker it’s a 1.

      There’s still no 3.

      • Agreed – the slip ups are the price of admission. You are accepting the fact that the person has X behavior that, even though they are working on it, might still occasionally happen. If it happens to much, or you don’t trust that they are working on it then you get to decide if you still want to be in a relationship with them.

        As to change – I’m not SA, but my two cents are: you can’t expect someone to change for you, and no one can expect you to change for them. If it is a change YOU (or them) want to make, go for it. Maybe it’s something you wouldn’t have thought about doing unless SO said/asked/mentioned, but do it because you want to. Not because you are scared of someone leaving if you don’t, or because it’s the way you are “supposed” to act, etc.

        But all of that still falls under price of admission – things you take as they are, even if there is hope for change.

        • Senior Attorney :

          Yes. Take them as they are, even if there is hope for change.

          If you’re not willing to live with him as he is RIGHT NOW, then he’s not the right person.

    • Silvercurls :

      I’d say it depends on the people, the issues, and the severity of the issues. Are we talking about a struggle to undo midlife weight gain or control stress eating? What about trying to untangle a partner’s unholy fondness for heavy-duty public flirting (with other peoples’ SOs) or having affairs or being addicted to alcohol, tobacco, narcotics, or gambling? Is the partner chronically late or always wildly overspending the budget? Where do you rank your partner’s not-ideal behavior on the scale from “it’s okay if it doesn’t happen very often” to “It’s not great, but I can live with it” to “this means it’s over IMMEDIATELY?” (I guess the nuclear option would be “I’m outta here in 30 seconds with no forwarding address” ??)

      The hard part is that everybody has a different answer to these questions. Each of us has to decide for herself. Hopefully we draw the line when a partner’s behavior is totally life-threatening (e.g. abusive or financially grossly irresponsible) but people are complicated.

      • Silvercurls :

        Oops. While rethinking Query’s third paragraph, I realized that I omitted a category on my scale. Please insert “Seriously, this is a problem, let’s work on it” between “not great but livable” and “break up ASAP.”

        Query wrote “I ask because my marriage has a few of these areas going both ways. I agreed to work on a couple things for him and he worked on a few things for me. We both slip up sometimes and it causes some fights. If we refused to work on those things they would have been dealbreakers. We appreciate each others work in those categories and realize the other isn’t perfect and that mistakes are okay.”

        To me this sounds like the kind of stuff that people work on not because it’s a Happening Crisis but because life as a couple will be better when the problem gets faced and resolved–by both partners working respectfully together.

    • Senior Attorney :

      Short version: I couldn’t have said it better myself, Wildkitten.

      Long version: Actually, the question about “working on things” is related to my comment about “don’t change yourself for the guy, either.” For some background, I’ll go ahead and tell my story: Mr. Senior Attorney always thought I was too fat. And he wanted me to lose weight and was generally shitty to me about it the whole time we were together, regardless of my weight, right up until I had weight loss surgery and got thin (whereupon he commenced being shitty to me about other things — quel surprise!).

      Yes, I had agreed to work on it. And apparently it wasn’t enough of a deal-breaker for him to leave me over. But he kept beating me over the head with the fact that I had promised to lose weight, that he didn’t want to have a fat wife, and yadda yadda yadda. He really thought that if he tortured me about it enough, he could force me to lose weight. (Which I guess he kind of did, but I ultimately left him so it didn’t quite work out the way he planned.)

      At the time I had never heard of Dan Saveage, but if I had, I would have said “Dear, I struggle with my weight. I am not the size you’d like me to be, or the size I’d like me to be. If this is a dealbreaker for you, so be it. But if you are going to stay with me, you are going to have to accept this struggle as the price of admission for being married to me. I’m gonna keep working on it but I can’t guarantee it’s ever going to be solved.”

      What I said instead was actually similar: “You have two choices if you think I am too fat for you. You can leave, or you can stick around and be a decent husband anyway. You do not have the option of sticking around and being shitty to me because I am too fat for you.” Which is really similar to “There is no Number 3.”

      Meanwhile, I kept trying to change his awful behavior and I finally left when I realized that even though I really really really wanted him to change from a jerk into a nice guy, it was never going to happen despite his protestations that he was working on it. And it was not the kind of thing that I would ever accept as a “price of admission.”

      Honestly, I think “we have both agreed to work on our stuff” is just another version of Number 3. If you are fighting about some behavior of your partner’s that you don’t like and want him or her to change, then you are in Number 3 territory.

      Me personally, in the alternate universe in which I am ever in the dating pool again I plan to stay far, far away from anybody who has any known behaviors that would otherwise be dealbreakers, based on a promise to “work on” said behaviors. Because I know how had it is to change and I’m not going to stake my future happiness on somebody else being able to do it.

      Wow. That was rambly. Hope it helps.

  27. West Coast :

    Does anyone know how suits from BOSS fit?

    I’m still trying to find one designer that makes both jackets and bottoms that fit me. Jackets by Elie Tahari work very well for me. Pants by Theory fit me pretty well (as do BCBG, but they rarely make pants for work). Does anyone have any experience with this line?

  28. Etsy discounts? :

    Ugh, I am so in lust with this ring!


    Does anyone know if Kanye East ever has sales/discount codes?

  29. MBAwannabe :

    … is a wannabe no more! I got the call that I’ve been admitted with 20k/yr scholarship.

    But now I’m rethinking if I can actually take out an almost 6 figure loan for the remainder. The thought of it makes me so anxious it hurts. The jobs I would target after graduation would make about 100k, which is about how much I would need in loans for school. I know lots of ladies on thissite have been in this position, any words of wisdom or cautionary tales?

    • anonymous :

      If those jobs are realistic and you can continue to live frugally when you graduate, it will not be difficult to pay back the loans. Speaking from experience with 90K in loans and 125K job at graduation.

      • Wildkitten :

        Yeah – the question is if you can get those jobs. For your target to also be your bare minimum needed seems very dangerous.

    • West Coast :

      Keep in mind that $100K is your starting salary. In addition to a healthy signing bonus, you will also have yearly salary increases that will make loan repayment more affordable.

      Most people I know coming out of B-school made at least 100K, easy. If you are going to one of the better schools, getting a job that pays that won’t be too hard; the demand from employers is there.

      You will see the opinion articles on LinkedIn decrying the MBA value, but this mainly applies to the lower tier schools. There could be some bias involved, but no one I know regrets taking on the debt to get our career where we wanted it to be. It’s not about the salary (which isn’t bad either), but finding a job that challenges you in the right way and lets you maximize your potential.

      Regarding the loan amount, know that the MBA has one of the best ROIs of any professional degree. To really make an informed decision, evaluate your future cash flows with and without the MBA, all the way to retirement–the difference is usually $1M over your lifetime.

  30. Wildkitten :

    What are the best articles to convince a college graduate to not go to law school? This one wants to do international public interest law, if that helps.

    • Killer Kitten Heels :

      Send them to PSJD and idealist to look for jobs. (Hint: There pretty much aren’t any for anyone with less than a decade of experience in international human rights.)

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