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Happy Easter to all! Something on your mind? Chat about it here.
Pictured: Our weekend recommendation is this fun mini-dress. Too short for work (for most) but we like the casual vibe to it, as well as the fun print. We'd wear it out to brunch with friends, or shopping (perhaps paired with leggings or a pair of skinny jeans). It's $198 at Piperlime, where the pictured print is an exclusive. Tucker The Classic Mini Dress
(L-2)
Eva
Somewhat random question for you all (came up at a recent family gathering):
How often do you shave?
Nevadamtnbear
Depends on the season, my mood, and motivation. 1-2x’s a week on average. But, I rarely wear skirts. During the summer that gets bumped up to 3-4x’s a week.
LMo
Every day. Part of my shower routine, takes less than 2 min and I don’t have to deal with scratchy legs.
anon - chi
Almost every day in the summer, probably every other or every third day during winter.
K
In summer, 1-2 times a week (I’m blonde and not super hairy to begin with, so I can be a bit lazier about it than some). In winter, when the boyfriend starts complaining. :-)
I hardly ever wear skirts, so that helps too.
Cat
2x a week in summer (usually Friday/Saturday and Monday/Tuesday) — so I can wear shorts/skirts all weekend and not worry about it, then wear pants later in the work week. Then again, I’m blonde, so Day 3, while slightly prickly, isn’t really visible, and I have sensitive skin so I try to minimize fussing with it.
RKS
Every other day, sometimes a bit longer for legs during the winter. I’ve got sensitive skin and found that daily shaving caused rashes and discomfort.
1L NYC
Ok, now I feel gross — but in the winter I shave every 2-3 weeks, in the summer I shave every 2-3 days. (sliding scale based on weather, clearly).
SSC
Lol. I’m just as gross as you are, if that makes you feel better.
Anonymous
Heh. I’m grosser.
K
I’m the exact same way in the winter. Everyday in the summer — only because I wear shorts to the gym.
KLo
Same! And I find my hair grows a lot slower and is a LOT less obvious because of it.
Eponine
I shave (well, remove hair from) my legs approximately once every 4-6 months in the winter.
Eponine
Never. I use Veet every week or so on my underarms and, in the summer, every week on my legs too.
ARinFL
Legs: Once a week. Saturday mornings and special occasions.
Underarms: Two to three times a week, depending on what I’m wearing.
Unmentionables: Wax in summer, once a week in winter.
BethInNY
Is waxing “unmentionables” really worth it? I hate getting razorburn down there, but the thought of a stranger getting that close to that area freaks me out. Is that something you just have to get used to?
A-C
Yes! Its a bit odd at first to have someone down there doing their thing, but everything is super smooth for quite some time.
Chicago K
it’s totally worth it, if you can take the pain. no razor burn (although you might get a few red bumps the first time, but they go away after a day or so), no itchy regrowth and it looks smooth for weeks (if you do the whole shebang, it’ll probably look nice to over a month).
I’ve been doing it for the last year, and while it’s awkward to have someone down there, I have a great waxer who makes me very comfortable.
Louise
This is this most apropos use of the word “shebang” I have ever encountered. Well played, Chicago K!
houda
In my country it is the norm :) so the ladies don’t even blink even if the wax the whole area. I felt very uncomfortable the couple few times, then you just get used to it and it’s better because it lasts so long!
3L Sarah
3 advil 20 mins before you start works decently well to cut the pain. Normally, I recommend 2 tylenol and a half glass of wine, but I’ve noticed that some people look at me funny when I say that…
And think of it like your doctor: your doctor doesn’t think, “ooo, I’m looking at her privates!” Your doctor thinks, “Ok, here’s this part, and here’s this part.” The estheticians see ladies’ private parts for a living. They’re not down there for any reason other than to take away hair. They don’t want to be down there for any other reason. They are professionals, they’re not going to make comments, and they’re going to work to make it as painless as possible. Most of the time they use gloves anyway.
Anon.
I’m not comfortable with waxing but swear by Veet for the unmentionables.
divaliscious11
Don’t! … Wax once a month half leg/under arm, eyebrows threaded 2-3 weeks as needed…..
1L NYC
I second threading for eyebrows, I think it gets a nicer line.
CL
Has anyone ever tried an epilator?
houda
I don’t shave… I wax every 4 weeks and use an electric hair remover every now and then
Shayna
legs, once a week…ish – hair on them seems to grow extremely slowly/sparsely which is a blessing. On the other hand, I do my underarms every time I shower
ugh
on a slightly related topic:
i am considering getting electrolysis on my face. i have thick, wiry hairs on my chin and upper lip. i have tried laser hair removal, and it was a good temporary solution, but the hair has all grown back fuller and thicker. any advice on electrolysis?
Clerky
Hi Ugh,
I highly, highly HIGHLY recommend electrolysis! I had the exact same problem as you, very coarse hairs on my upper lip and chin due to tweezing that area for several years. Moreover, my skin in that area became discolored. Over the last year, I have been going to a wonderful electrologist. In the beginning I went every week, and now I go about every month. All of my coarse hairs went away in about 9 months, and now we are taking care of the more fine hairs. Under laser hair removal, electrolysis is a permanent solution.
The key is to do some research and make sure that you go to a reputable electrologist. Make sure that you find someone who uses the galvanic method, which is the only method that works for getting rid of coarse hairs. The “blend” method is best for getting rid of fine hairs.
The only downside is that while you are getting electrolysis done, you absolutely cannot tweeze your hairs and you may feel self conscious with coarse hairs showing. Fortunately, you can cut the hairs off as a temporary solution.
I can’t express how much this has changed my life — no worries anymore about having a dark upper lip/chin! I hope this is helpful. :)
ugh
Hi Clerky,
Thank you so much for your reply. I had no idea about the different methods.
legalicious07
Underarms – probably every other week or so.
Unmentionables – about every other month or so.
Legs – about twice a year.
I’m African-American and nearly hairless (but with extremely fine and curly hair where there is some).
LMo
Cat, thanks for posting the article a week or two about about alternative things to do with old jewelry. I have an event to go to tonight and had nothing to wear, so I grabbed a shapeless cotton dress (BR outlet, $15, my kind of deal) and used a large jeweled pin I haven’t worn in years to gather some fabric at the side of my waist and BAM, attractive, event appropriate outfit with a cute detail. So happy and excited for tonight, thank you!
LMo
Also – aside from Crest White Strips (which I used like 3 years ago and don’t really want to use again because they seriously irritated my nerves the first few days), does anyone have suggestions for teeth whitening?
A
The crest whitestrips also make my teeth and gums really sensitive. I still get them and use them once or twice a week (instead of the 7 day plan) which helps a bit. I also use the new Crest 3D toothpaste and mouthwash, which actually work pretty well.
3L
Good old baking soda. Dip your toothbrush into some and start brushing ;)
BethInNY
Don’t they have something now that you paint on your teeth? That wouldn’t irritate your gums if you are careful to only put it on the teeth.
Chicago K
has anyone done Xoom? I am considering it for my upcoming wedding. I tried the white strips too, and they literally ate away at my gums.
I’d love to get Xoom, but I am not sure if the moderately high cost is worth it…I’ve heard various reports about how long it lasts.
sarah
I had Zoom whitening done before my wedding. NEVER again. I normally don’t get teeth sensitivity with the over the counter stuff. And while it was totally comfortable while they were doing it, hours later I was in excruciating pain. Like little zaps of electricity running through every nerves. Just breathing with my mouth hurt. I literally debated whether I needed to go to the ER. I now use trays from my dentist. Takes longer to do (several days) but it looks the same and way less painful. It was about the same cost, and the trays are reusable. In terms of whiteness, I would say both methods were equal for me. For what it is worth, I asked around before I did Zoom and one friend had dramatic and wonderful results and the other didn’t see any difference at all. (Neither experienced the intense pain I did.)
Karen
I had some kind of laser whitening at the dentist (don’t know if it was Zoom or what) and found it did make my teeth whiter, but it was quite painful that day and for a few days afterward. Also the whitening effect was slightly uneven, which bothered me although I don’t think anyone else noticed. I’d go for the trays next time.
Chicago K
Thank you both! The dentist actually recommended trays…but I wanted something that was more instant. I guess I will go for the trays!
A
I’m at the beginning of my fifth month of pregnancy and will be starting a federal clerkship in a district court in May. I’ve worked in these chambers before as an intern, and I know that they are fairly formal. I’m trying to figure out how to do a suit everyday without looking like I’m wearing the same suit everyday (which I probably will be). Once I get a little closer, I’m going to buy a suit with both pants and a skirt so I’ll have some options, but it seems silly to me to buy much more than that in terms of suiting. Not only is the sizing an issue that prevents me from wanting to lay out a whole bunch of money, but coming by maternity suits that aren’t horrible has been difficult for me. So, ladies, any thoughts on how to keep the wardrobe fresh? Do you think that I can get away with a dress and a blazer? I’m thinking that I’ll probably get a little leeway because of the big belly, but I don’t want to abuse it. Any ideas that you have would be hugely appreciated! Thanks.
Nevadamtnbear
During both of my pregnancies, I found dresses with blazers to be the best bet. You can mix and match, the dresses last from the little belly to the on the verge of delivery belly, which IMO was a good budget bargain for items you only wear for a few months.
I ended up having a couple *fat* suits that worked well for court appearances. They were skirt suits and even at 8+ months, I was able to pin the waist so the skirt sat below my belly ( I carried pretty high in both my pregnancies, so I don’t know if it makes a difference how you carry).
I personally found “maternity” suits extremely unflattering, difficult to fit, and horrible fabric. So, still being able to wear a couple of my skirt suits looked much better than the “maternity” suits.
The biggest challenge will be at the end of the pregnancy, where even the best intentioned maternity shirt fail to provide complete belly coverage. At least, I always found that to be true. That’s why I loved my maternity dresses so much, because I never was worried about an inappropriate belly exposure.
anon - chi
Congrats! I have never clerked, but in my law firm, there is a lot of leeway given to pregnant associates in terms of what they wear. I would think that would apply to your judge as well, especially if your judge is male. (In my experience, male lawyers do not want to tell pregnant women to do or wear ANYTHING different under any circumstances.) If it were me, I would do dresses and blazers.
Selia
See if you can find some maternity consignment shops – there were a few great ones near me which allowed me to get a lot of great work pieces (even Pea in a Pod items) at a fraction of the cost! And, I found most people are not too harsh on expectant mothers’ attire.
Lee
I’m also clerking on a district court, business formal chambers, and at least around here a professional dress and matching blazer is considered business formal. Particularly if you are clerking for a male judge, and would be shocked if you ever hear anything about your maternity wear being too informal (since it is clear you are aware of the dress code and working to comply with it). I’ve never been pregnant myself, but I’ve seen pregnant government attorneys wear black dresses with a crisp suit jacket to argue in court and it looks fine. I think you could even do non-matching pieces, like a gray dress and black jacket or vice versa. This might even be better than black on black or the like, considering the two pieces will probably not be made from the exact same material.
Lee
Second sentence should be “I would be shocked…”
North Shore
You can get away with wearing the same thing over and over again when you are pregnant. I’ve had two trials in federal court at times when I was pregnant, and just wore the same black jacket with different skirts and shirts. If my shirt was nice enough, some days I’d skip the jacket, even. I was huge, and just grateful that I could find anything with full coverage of my belly. Too bad you don’t have co-workers in the same situation. At my office, we have a box of professional maternity clothes that we pass around so nobody has to spend a fortune just because we have a trial when someone is pregnant.
Louise
A few sophisticated scarves will freshen things up and draw attention away from the underlying suit.
Also, a source of maternity clothing is FreeCycle.
RKS
Ditto to everyone’s suggestions to check out second-hand maternity clothes out there. You can get pieces in very good to excellent condition for very little money since they’re worn less frequently and for a short period of time. Good sources are consignment shops, EBay, Craigslist and local mom’s listservs. I’m in DC and frequently see maternity clothes postings on DC Urban Moms, for example. Once you know brands/sizing, Ebay is also great, especially for lots.
I definitely found dresses to be easier than suits, especially at the end. Never bothered buying a maternity blazer, simply wore the ones I had unbuttoned. Figured the reason was obvious enough. :-)
Also, how long are you planning to take for maternity leave? If you’re taking a shorter (3-4 mos) leave, think about the transitional period *after* pregnancy when buying. You may be headed back to work not quite ready to fit into pre-pregnancy clothing. So if you can buy some things that will both work now and afterwards, it’ll make the return to work smoother (no panic attack of OMG, nothing fits!!!).
Oh and one more though: think about some low-heeled or flat shoes, since you likely won’t feel comfortable wearing heels after a certain point. My feet were heavily swollen with both pregnancies, so wide flats were my best option.
3L
I’m curious, you will be giving birth a few months after starting your clerkship? Will you be taking a maternity leave?
A
Yep, pretty crummy timing, eh? All I can say is that life happens sometimes, and my judge and I are both comfortable with my tentative post-pregnancy plans.
3L
Kudos to you and the judge! I had been considering the ramifications of getting pregnant right before or the beginning of starting a new job, but I thought that an employer would think of this as “irresponsible”. I know, we shouldn’t have to think this way or do family-planning based around these things. After all, when is the time ever right if you are employed?
Do any others Corporettes have experience with being/getting pregnant this early on in a job? Thanks! I’m really glad you shared that info with us A.
Nevadamtnbear
For what it’s worth – I started my job where I’m at now 8 months pregnant, and in an office with solely male attorneys. When you find an employer willing to work with you when you’re pregnant, that is a true gift and based upon my experience, a true measure of the workplace. And, in my case, built fierce loyalty.
Congratulations!
A
Thanks, and thanks to everyone else who commented. This has been tremendously helpful thus far. My judge is pretty great. I was terrified to tell him, but his response was really fantastic. I’m very lucky.
Redpen
3L – I was 13 weeks pregnant when I started a temp job last summer. (I’m not a lawyer – I’m in communications.) After about a month, they started to talk about offering me a permanent position. I told them then that I was pregnant (wasn’t going to be able to hide it much longer, anyway). They could have decided not to go ahead with an offer, but they continued the conversation, and I was able to use the pregnancy as leverage to some extent; I made it clear that the offer was going to have to be worth my while, since I had previously been working from home as a freelancer and I could make more freelancing part-time than I would clear after paying for daycare with their initial offer. (Daycare is very expensive in my area!)
I ended up with a better job title, more responsibilities, and much better pay than they initially offered. They also honored FMLA, even though I hadn’t been there long enough to qualify. I took eight weeks off at full pay. I could have taken additional unpaid leave, but I was eager to get back to work. Overall, my bosses and co-workers have been very supportive, and that definitely breeds loyalty.
I think you can only take work decisions into account so much when planning your family. There will never be the perfect time to have a baby. It’s just a leap of faith.
Anon
3L, I know of multiple women who were hired while pregnant. People generally are understanding. There is no perfect time to get pregnant. I thought I timed my pregnancy perfectly. I expected to come back from maternity leave and make partner that fall. Instead, I came back to a merger, the worst economy of our lifetime, and 2 years later I’m grateful to still have a job with hopes of making partner someday. I’ve had to start over proving myself at a time when I have twin infants and now toddlers at home. It goes to show that you just can’t plan life.
AN
I found myself wearing more and more matte/cotton jersey in the last trim. But I am not a lawyer & wasn’t going to court. Dresses do seem a good option. You might like to look for pants that have hidden side-buttons that you keep letting out so they fit you from mth 4 thru 9. Good luck!
Shayna
When I’m trying to stretch out my wardrobe (like when I was between sizes while losing weight and didn’t want to buy a whole new wardrobe that I would get to wear for a month or two tops), I used a lot of different colored tops – the key was using different necklines/shirts – not the same style in three or four colors. Also, jewelry — If you can pull of an interesting necklace without it looking outlandish, it can define na outfit. I would stick with basics that blend from day to day for the suiting – no trendy embellished pieces, so its not “oh its the suit with all the pockets/ruffles/exotic buttons day’
Anon
I have twins, so I was a level of huge that most pregnancies will not attain. I also worked to 35 weeks, at which point I was measuring about 45 weeks pregnant. I had one maternity suit that I could stand (the jacket buttoned over the belly, as opposed to those awful one button at the boobs maternity jackets), and I wore a lot of dresses. People understand. Dresses with blazers are perfectly acceptable. Honestly, at the end, I was wearing maternity pants, a button up maternity shirt that looked like a man’s shirt or a gray sweater (only two tops that covered my belly by the end), and wide brown shoes (with everything – black, gray, brown – I wanted to burn them in effigy by the end, but my feet were so swollen they were the only shoes that fit). And I worked at a firm with a strict conservative dress code. Everyone understood. Really.
Dani
It’s $315 at piperlime.
http://piperlime.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=765422032&tid=plaff3039637&ap=2
KD
Yes, I’m super confused! Esp. since C said it’s only available on Piperlime. Did she make a mistake or did they change the price? I like it for $198, but not for $315.
Shayna
Ouch! I thought it was somewhat outlandish for $195… $315?? Its pattern looks like drapes, and for that much I could buy new drapes! (or at least make a decent start!)
CL
Hi ladies! I just got a new job and I’ll be working primarily from home. My home office is pretty basic and I was wondering if those of you who work from home on a regular basis could share with me anything that you’ve found to be essential to your home office?
RKS
I’ve been a telecommuter at least one day a week for the last 4+ years, both at my former law firm and now with the gov’t. My list of must-haves:
(1) Speaker phone, ideally with three-way calling added to your plan.
(2) Good, comfortable office chair.
(3) All-in-one printer/fax/copier/scanner
(4) A door!! Your home office must be a separate room with a door, especially if there are small kids in the house.
Shayna
Agree on all counts!! specially having a home fax. And high speed internet (which is a given a lot of the time, bu worth mentioning), and caller id (again, usually a given with most phone plans but essential).
RKS
YES — didn’t think to mention high-speed internet, but that’s not optional. Ability to create pdfs is also a good one, since you’ll be emailing things back and forth most of the time, I would imagine. Will they be giving you software or access to their system (e.g., logging in through Citrix or VPN)?
Shayna
Good call! PDF maker is a mainstay — also, make sure you have Adobe Professional so you can redact PDFs easily
RoadWarriorette
Good list above. I would add a good, preferably wireless headset. If I think of anything else I will add it. Good luck! I love working from home.
CJ
I hope this doesn’t open a big can of plastic-surgery-debate worms, but does anyone have any first or second-hand experience with mastopexy (breast lift, no implants)? I am just curious to hear from this wise group if it’s something any of you have considered or undergone, what informed your decision, and whether anyone has cautionary tales.
CL
I have a friend who had a “mommy makeover” about three or four years ago. She had a tummy tuck, a little bit of lipo, and a breast lift (I’m trying to remember if she had implants as well…I’m not sure.) She decided to get the surgery because she was done having kids (she had both of her kids by c-section) and she decided that she wanted to have her body back. The change wasn’t anything really drastic. She’s a size 8 and her breasts don’t really look that much different when she’s in clothes. I know she’s been very happy with the results. I don’t believe it costs much to have a consultation with a plastic surgeon (maybe it’s free?) and the doctor should be able to provide you with references to former patients. Just be careful to make sure that the doctor you go to is well-established and respected in the plastic surgery community. There are so many horror stories out there today about quacks doing all kinds of awful things to people! (think Priscilla Presley…)
K
I don’t have any advice about mastopexy specifically, but I had a reduction almost seven years ago (god, has it really been that long?!), and it’s one of the best things I’ve ever done for myself.
Nevadamtnbear
I’m glad you posted this. I’m planning on having a reduction + mastopexy in the next year to 18 months. So, I’m curious to hear others feedback as well.
My choice to proceed is in part due to the size of my breasts – 36E/F (depending on the TOM) and the resulting back pain, issues I have with my breast size, finding bras, clothing, and the discomfort associated with exercise – even with the bomber sports bras. I figure, if I’m under the knife getting the reduction, I might as well make things a little more perky.
Delta Sierra
My 34 year old friend had a breast reduction last month. Very little discomfort afterwards, and almost instantaneous vanishing of back pain. She’s very happy with it.
K
That was my experience too – the annoyance from not being able to take a real shower for two weeks was far worse than any post-surgical discomfort (which was almost nonexistent – more itching than pain). My solution was to go to the salon around the corner every couple of days and pay them $5 to wash my hair. Worth every penny!
Shayna
I have not – but after I have kids, its on my wish list — (figure it would be silly to do it only to need it again…) Thanks for asking the question – bcause I’m curious!
CJ
Thank you everyone! Just the fact that I didn’t get responses of shocked horror was helpful — I don’t have any friends who have undergone cosmetic procedures (that I know of), and I just don’t really have a sense of how commonplace these surgeries are. It’s great to hear that the recovery process isn’t too lengthy and that for the most part everyone has been glad they did it.
Anon
I would love to have one. I don’t want bigger – just perkier! Keep us posted on what you find out!
divaliscious11
Me too… I said i wanted one at 40, and didn’t but its really on my list. I don’t want more 9mine are bigger after nursing) but I WOULD like things back where they were before my darling rugrats!
anon - chi
If you DO get any “shocked horror” responses, try not to let it alter your decision! It’s your body, and if you will be happier or more confident as a result of enhancing nature a little bit, I say go for it. I think cosmetic surgery is more common than people would think, judging by the number of women I know at my firm and friends’ firms who have had a little something done.
MM
I had a reduction when I was 25 — best decision of my life. Absolutely changed the way I felt about myself. I know three other women who did the same thing and feel the same way. I fully intend to something in the “breast lift” category after having kids.
jb
I had a reduction 10 years ago and can agree with what everyone else is saying- best thing I ever did. BUT- unless the procedure has changed in the last 10 years (which I grant is highly possible), a lift requires the same cutting as a reduction, and the scars are something to consider. I love my results, but I do have some unsightly scars. Just my $0.02
eslawyer
what do people think of skinny jeans for the casual fridays at the office? can anyone recommend any good skinny jeans?
AIMS
I think skinny jeans may be too much for the office but I work in sans-casual Friday environment so it’s hard to say. Then again, maybe they would be okay since they tend to be neater looking, just make sure they are not too long (bunchy at the ankles).
I would say that if you’re going to wear jeans, skinny or not, it’s good to make sure they’re dark, clean cut, simple, without any funky accents, & not too tight (or baggy). Make the rest of your outfit somewhat classic (crisp white button down?), throw in some nice jewelry & you’re good to go.
Eponine
I don’t think it’s appropriate to wear anything trendy or sexy to the office, and in my opinion, skinny jeans are both. I’d leave them for the weekends.
Shayna
Agree — maybe try the trouser style jeans instead? In a dark rinse they’re very sleek and keep the professional tone when paired with a crisp white blouse or sweater (in the winter).
ARinFL
Express makes a really dark jean – so dark that it almost passes as a trouser – that I have felt extremely comfortable in at work. Pretty inexpensive too. I don’t think I’d wear skinnies to the office, but that’s just me. I’m more comfortable with a slight bootcut. To me, the issue with skinnies is that they emphasize the tighness of the jean all the way around. Whereas a straight leg or bootcut jean allows the butt and thigh to be decently tight while not looking inappropriate.
Looking for a link now.
ARinFL
http://www.express.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=19613&parentCategoryId=2&categoryId=24&subCategoryId=24&Mcat=24&Mcatp=cat_2&Mpos=1&Mppg=0&Mcatn=Jeans&Mcatpn=category&Mpg=SEARCH%2BNAV&Mpper=3&user_att_name=Interest&user_att_value=Email&Mrsaa=*&Mrsavf=*
3L
All I know is that I just spent $400 of my birthday money at that sale! I’m one heck of a stylish unemployed person. AAAAAHHH.
3L
This was in reply to Amy, btw. :)
Amy
3L: Jealous! What did you get? I didn’t spend quite as much. Just a tank, short sleeve button down and pencil skirt. Why is it so hard to find fitted shirts?
3L
I got these 2 dresses: 1) http://tiny.cc/vwuna and 2) http://www.anntaylor.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=23815&pCategoryId=3939&categoryId=180&Ns=CATEGORY_SEQ_180&N=1200007&cid=E0002853&gridSize=sm&showAll=true&defaultColor=Fresh%20Orchid&defaultSizeType=Regular
This suit (no longer online): http://tiny.cc/1yjq8
This shirt: http://www.anntaylor.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=24539&N=1200005&pCategoryId=3939&categoryId=183&Ns=CATEGORY_SEQ_183&loc=TN&gridSize=sm&showAll=true&defaultColor=Light%20Ground%20Pepper&defaultSizeType=Regular
and a skinny belt, long cardi (not on the website), and the perfume (which I had to get as soon as I smelled it).
The most expensive thing was the pink dress ($100) in which I will pretend I am Holly Golightly (hehe just watched Breakfast at Tiffany’s last night and am now suffering delusions of grandeur). The suit jacket was next at $78. The rest was under $50 each. Now that I’ve shared my new wardrobe with everyone, can someone share their new purchases with me? =)
SSC
I am so in love with that pink dress, and at 40% off, I’m trying very hard to decide whether it’s worth having my husband be a little annoyed with me for buying it.
BethInNY
Oh what do you think of that shirt? I’ve had my eye on it before. Is it very long, or are the sleeve holes very big? Those were my concerns. How does it fit in general? Thanks!
BethInNY
(This was supposed to be a reply to 3L)
3L
Yes, I bought a small and it’s still loose on me (I’m usually a medium everywhere but AT/BR) and the sleeve holes are big, but it felt so unrestricting and comfy that I thought it was worth it. And the color is gorgeous.
CJ in CA
Last weekend I bought 2 suits at Ross- Calvin Klein, and each about $60.
One black tweed skirt suit that buttons all the way up with a ruffle at the neck and one camel colored pant suit that is pretty plain but versatile. Both are non-interview suits, which I think is hole in the new grad wardrobe. I felt really guilty, but I’m a plus size- how often will I come across a suit that is reasonable quality, in my size for $60?!
At that time, I was also an unemployed 3L, but I got a call for a job on Tuesday, so now I’m employed! Have hope! I sent out about 90 resumes and had 15 interviews (mostly “informational”) before I got this offer. It’s pretty tough- I’m ranked in the top 5% at top 60 school.
KZ
yay! I’m glad someone is getting hired–most of my friends that didn’t get offers from their firms (and me) are still looking, and it’s getting super depressing (and we’re a top 5 school). Seeing the new nalp numbers to see just how many people didn’t get offers and what we’re competing against was not encouraging, either. Is your job in CA? I’m in NY and wondering if the job market is better anywhere else.
KZ
ok why is the reply thing so messed up? mine are posting in really weird orders and not in response to the targeted post. bizarre.
Chicago K
Happening for me too. I posted something new and it went in in the middle?
MelD
@ KZ- I graduated last year from a top 25 school and I’m still looking. I have quite a few other friends in the same situation because most of the “entry level” jobs are going to people who are much more experienced. It’s hard to compete from any school when the people you are up against have been practicing several years.
CJ in CA
to KZ in case of reply failure!
Thanks! My job is in Oregon actually. The market is a little better in CA than in Oregon, but my guess is it’s not much better than New York. I think if you have geographic flexibility- like you’re willing to live in Riverside, Orange County, San Diego, the Valley you might find more openings than in LA proper. That also means a completely different lifestyle though. I don’t know if the NY area has a legal market in NJ, Conneticut, etc.
The job I got pays about $30,000 a year, which is not what I expected. The average starting salary at my school when I entered was $80,000 or so and had a 99% employment rate, so I thought I could safely count on making at least $60,000 a year. Since my total loans will be less than $100,000 I thought that was doable. I’m still glad I chose the scholarship school because it’s not like it would have made much of a difference job-wise right now. I AM thinking- I would be making more if I’d stayed at my pre-law school office assistant job, I could make more as a high school teacher. I try to remember that I really did want to be a lawyer, and that hopefully it will get better, and that even if it doesn’t my loans will be forgiven in 25 years.
Eponine
Is it a public interest job? If so, look into getting your federal loans on the income-based repayment plan ASAP. You’d be eligible for forgiveness after 10 years instead of 25.
Liking what you do is far more important than salary. Better to be a happy lawyer than a depressed office assistant.
CJ in CA
Eponine: Unfortunately it doesn’t qualify for public interest, and its not something I want to do for 10 years. I’m really just hoping I don’t end up a depressed lawyer! I think this job will be great, but it’s definitely not something I would have considered in August, or last May.
I’ll be on Income Contingent because that will allow me to go on an extended (25 year) plan if my income gets higher than the Income Based plan allows. That, I learned was the downside of IBR: If your income goes up so that your IBR payment is the same as your 10 year plan payment that’s what you pay. Since I’m being hopeful about where I’ll be in a few years, I didn’t necessarily want to have the door of a 25 year repayment rate closed
To A. : I’m glad to hear that! I was worried that despite the BIG NAME Calvin Klein actually made cheap suits and I was getting ripped off! Ross is VERY hit and miss. You have to go in every week if you really want to be a Ross shopper. I was just lucky- I went in looking for luggage (which they didn’t really have) and decided to do a spin through the racks. Stores in “nicer” neighborhoods have better things I think.
A.
CJ – those are smokin’ deals! I have a Calvin Klein suit in a dark grey color and it is fantastic – it wears really nicely. I would go check our Ross, but it tends to carry more “hoochie mama/gangster” wear than office-appropriate clothing. :) And congrats on your new job!
Lucy
Congratulations!!
Thanks for sharing your inspirational story!
s-p-s
Bought that cowl-neck dress, too! Found my size at the store – 40% off, and I couldn’t resist such a gorgeous color and flattering style, especially when belted. Hope that you enjoy it as much as I’m sure that I will!
3L
@ s-p-s, I know I will, thanks!
Wondering if other ladies think this look is work appropriate — (Worn similarly to the way shown on their site, minus all that chunky jewelry: http://tinyurl.com/yb6d3sp )
This is one of those things that, while it is elegant/classy/fancy, I am not sure that alone renders it work-appropriate. Not sure of the right word, but it might be too “pretty” for work.
Cat
I think it’s too “evening” — that kind of pave look really only works in small doses (stud earrings, small ball hanging on a chain) for the office.
Eponine
@ 3L – I think the jersey fabric makes it not office-appropriate. A cowl-neck style in a heavier fabric would be better. I also don’t know if a faux wrap is appropriate – definitely better than a real wrap, but it still hints at sex appeal.
Anonymous
Ha! I’m an unemployed 3L too and have had to try really really hard to restrain myself from buying new office clothes this spring. :-/
I keep telling myself that I’ll be glad I saved the money come September, if I still don’t have a job.
3L
Well I bought some pretty non-office dresses too (see my post below) and told myself that I am dressing for the job I want not the one I (don’t) have and that made me feel better. Besides I don’t want to network in my old duds anymore and want to put a fresh pep in my step :)
3L
ok sorry for being all over the place today, I’m supposed to be writing a paper! This last post was @ Anonymous
Anonymous
3L, I like how you think! Good thing I have a birthday coming up soon…last year’s gift from my mom was a trip to Dillards with her and her AmEx. ;)
3L
Never been to Dillard’s but I just checked out their website. What do people think of these 2 yellow items. Is a yellow suit or even a yellow bottom appropriate or too bright?
http://tinyurl.com/yzv7lur
http://tinyurl.com/yhcrmz6
Nevadamtnbear
I have several Antonio Melani suits, and I REALLY like them. I have found them to be good quality, wear very well, and I like the fit of their pieces.
I don’t know about the color, I know people who can pull it off. However, the only people I see in my community wearing brightly colored suits are either the older ladies or court reporters.
But, I think that it would be a nice change to the muted grays, blacks, blues, browns I am used to seeing. I couldn’t do it, myself, yellow looks awful against my skin tone.
Nevadamtnbear
argg…what’s up with the reply…that was supposed to be a reply to 3L’s question about the Dillards pieces.
Anonymous
Beautiful dress, but more Easter-ish or summer wedding-y than work appropriate.
Robin
I have a yellow linen pantsuit I got a few years ago. I only wear it in the summer (obviously), but get tons of compliments on it — even from a female partner who considers navy to be a bit risque (she lives in black, brown, and charcoal). I do have reddish hair and the yellow goes well with my coloring, so I think that helps.
MelD
Melani suits/clothes are great. I’d say the pieces are just fine if you are in FL/parts of the South. I don’t see that there is any age issue here in FL with only older women wearing colored suits. For us, it has more to do with the styling than the color, and I can definitely see this look more on a younger woman.
Eponine
I think the dress is pretty and would be office appropriate with a cardigan.
I have never seen a woman under 45 wearing a colorful suit without looking frumpy, and pastel suits in particular scream church service, not law firm. So I’d say no to the suit.
anon - chi
I think the color is fine for work, but I wouldn’t personally wear a yellow suit. That said, I understand that the aversion to colored suits is region-specific, so it may be different if you are practicing in the south. Even if a yellow suit is generally ok for your area, since you are a 3L and presumably don’t have a closetful of suits already, I would suggest sticking with tamer neutrals that you can wear repeatedly without anyone noticing. A yellow suit is noticable enough that you probably wouldn’t want to wear it every single week.
KZ
yea, I’m struggling with this. pretty spring clothes and no job:-( I keep thinking to myself “oh this would be great for work and it’s on sale… but I don’t actually have a job yet to wear it to…” If only someone would hire us unemployed 3Ls so we can get on with our life planning.
3L Sarah
A-men!! I’ve run out of “investment pieces” my parents are willing to pay for…
3L Sarah
I mean, the “investment pieces” were legit investment pieces…full 3-piece navy and black bbros suits, lots of nice button-downs, etc…
Didn’t mean to come off as mean as I realized it did…
MelD
I think Oprah had a makeover special recently where she had a section on skinny jeans/leggings for women in all age groups. The main point was to show that they could be sophisticated without being too sexy or inappropriate looking. I think if you choose a uniform dark wash, you can pair them with a tunic, longer cardigan, or short dress like the one pictured above and it won’t be sexy at all.
A friend and I both got the same pair of Moto skinny jeans at Top Shop London a few years ago, but I don’t think they carry that style anymore. I haven’t found any others that I’d feel comfortable wearing in the workplace because the rise is either too low or there is too much styling going on.
AN
Try Mavi skinny jeans. Medium rise + not skin tight. Pair with crisp button front shirts!
Chicago K
Now that it’s warmed up a bit, and people have ditched the coats, I have been checking out everyone’s outfits while I walk to work. (Hahaa, yes, if you are in Chicago, I am that woman probably creepily staring at you. It’s not you, just your clothes I am interested in).
So yesterday being Friday, a fair amount of people were wearing jeans, and almost all of them had skinny jeans on.
I noticed a lot of people wearing them with blazers and nice flats (not ballet flats, like it trendy). I thought this looked professional for casual friday. The blazer went down enough to cover any super tightness, and the flats just looked cute. Of course, everyone was pairing it with nice jewelry or silk scarves.
I’d love to give it a try if I can find nice skinny jeans.
SUCL 3L
I suppose skinnies could be office appropriate – but, like so many other issues raised here, that probably depends somewhat on your office. I recently made the the dive into the world of skinny jeans, but I still prefer boot cut or straight leg jeans for the office since the cut more closely resembles the cut of slacks.
Chicago K – I totally do the same thing! I get alot of ideas for cute outfits, color combinations, accessories, etc. by looking at what other pretty, fashionable women are wearing.
anonymous
I think they could work – just be careful with the rise and how tight they are.
E
I haven’t tried them personally, but Lands End has some very reasonably priced versions of skinny jeans. They also seem to hit the mark for certain body types and ages — they come across as a more mature version of a trend.
L from Oz
At least until the weather warms up around here (torrential hail today – delightful), skinny jeans worn with boots seems to be the smarter variation, while the casual version involves flat shoes of some description.
I have a black pair I’ve worn to work, and they do look smart when worn with plain, fitted boots – however, my other pair (much more fitted, and in a more faded blue wash) are really too trendy. Mind you, a friend has said they’d be fine for the office – it’s more that I’m not comfortable with it.
AIMS
PS: I love this dress!!! But I hate that they paired it with such terribly wrong for it shoes.
Why can they never get the shoes right (e.g., pairing suits with chunky sandles & then something like this with wholly inappropriate pumps)?
Nevadamtnbear
I have a related question to CJ’s thread re: mastopexy, but I didn’t want to derail her question…
I’ve been considering having the BRCA1 and BRCA2 genetic testing due to my family history of breast cancer. Has anyone undergone the testing, or even contemplated it? Why have you decided to go forward with the testing or why not?
I am also curious if you had the testing and found out you were a carrier, did you elect to have a dual mastectomy? Why did you or didn’t you?
I’m torn. As I mentioned on CJ’s thread, I’m planning on a reduction in the next 12-18 months, but I’m trying to decide if I should do the BRCA testing ahead of time, as part of me feels that if I am a carrier, I’d elect to undergo a dual mastectomy and elect for reconstructive surgery. Heck, my mom had a dual mastectomy 30 years ago due to breast cancer risks, and she just had her implants replaced due to leakage, and now she’s got a great fresh rack for a 60 year old! Hahah!
Anon
I chose not to undergo the testing. I have a family history of breast cancer but only on my mother’s side, and she tested negative. Due to the lack of family history on my father’s side, it is unlikely that he is a carrier.
I never considered what I would have done if she had tested positive (she didn’t tell us she was being tested for the mutation until she’d received her negative results). It’s definitely not a split-second, responding to a post type decision!
It’s a big decision. If you haven’t already started speaking with a genetic counselor to hear about the possible pluses and minuses to taking the test and getting the results, you probably should. Would you also have your ovaries removed? My understanding is that BRCA 1 and 2 mutations are also linked to much higher rates of ovarian cancer.
Shayna
I have the same story — my mom’s side of the family had 9 siblings on my great-grandfather’s level – if you look at the family tree all of their children, grand children, and now great-grandchildren (I”m at the bottom end of my generation since my great grandfather was the youngest) have battled breast cancer, ovarian cancer, and prostate cancer (all brca 1/2 related… and A LOT of them had breast cancer) – we were pretty much the poster children for genetic testing – and a lot of my cousins, and my mom, after losing their respective parents/siblings/aunts, got tested together – those who were positive had masectomies and hysterectomies. Luckily my mom was negative (only one in the family tree), so I’m clear — it’s a hard decision if ou don’t have children yet, and want them— but to me, if my mother had been positive, I would have been tested, and if positive probably had both done in my twenties — drastic, but, well,— you can adopt, but ovarian cancer is difficult to detect until its too late (2 of the cousins had cysts on the ovaries that came out that they doctors didn’t know about until then).
Hope that helps… sorry to ramble!
Cindy
Hi, Nevada,
I’m 52 years old and had BRCA testing done after my identical twin sister was diagnosed with Stage IIIC breast cancer (despite regular mamograms) at age 49. She was told it had been there, undiagnosed, for 10-15 years. There are standard guidelines for when BRCA testing is recommended. One particularly informative website is force.org (facing our risk empowered).
My mom had breast cancer at age 47; my maternal aunt died of breast cancer diagnosed before age 50, and my maternal grandmother died of ovarian cancer.
If you have a “family history” of breast cancer, I would strongly suggest you see a certified genetic counselor. As evidenced by the (non)advice, treatment my twin sister and I received despite the above family history, most general practice gynecologists are simply not fully versed on the risks of genetic breast cancer. Genetics only accounts for some very small percentage of all breast cancers, but the kicker is that if you have the gene mutation, you have up to about a 95 plus lifetime percentage chance of developign breast cancer and somewhat less of a risk of developing ovarian cancer. Of course, ovarian cancer is much harder to catch at a treatable stage than is breast cancer, and that is really a problem for women who still want children.
If your mom (or dad) has one of the two gene mutations, you have a 50 percent chance of having the same mutation. My twin sister and I have BRCA1; my younger sister does not.
I decided before testing that if I was positive, I would have a bilateral mastectomy. Easy decision in many ways, much harder to follow through with. I first had a total hysterectomy-oopherectomy and spent the last part of my recovery time helping my twin sister who was undergoing radiation therapy in Salt Lake City for her breast cancer.
I waited until that next fall (about 10 months between hysterectomy and mastectomy) for personal reasons–my twin and I wanted a trip together that summer (Australia) to celebrate her finishing surgery/chemo/radiation, and I just could not find the right combination of breast surgeon/plastic surgeon. You need both if you intend to have reconstruction. I saw about 5 surgeons and 3 plastic surgeons. Don’t settle for anyone you are not comfortable with.
I had the surgery done last October with immediate temporary implants; final implants went in after Christmas 2008.
I have not regretted my decision for an instant. My breasts look pretty good naked and excellent with clothes. I figured that I could either have the surgery while I was healthy or after I developed cancer and then would need surgery, plus chemo and/or radiation.
I opted for silicone gel implants. The first plastic surgeon I went to wanted to do a double latissimis flap. EDUCATE YOURSELF. Go get different opinions. A single “lat flap” is one thing; most surgeons say that double “lat flaps” cause significant disability and pain in the future, although they do look more natural than only going with implants, b/c your muscle off your back is pulled around and goes over (or in place of) implants. I did not go back to see him when he would show me photos only of lat flaps and no other options.
I’m a marathon runner and otherwise very active as well. I did not want disability from the lat flaps. I’m also quite small (5 feet, less than 100 pounds) and did not want huge breasts–be forewarned that you may have to be very insistent with the plastic surgeon about stopping the inflations. Men!! :)
This is a very personal decision. From what I have read and heard from doctors, the women who have BPM (bilateral prophylactic mastectomy) because of a BRCA gene mutation are usually those who have watched family members endure and/or die from cancer. It brings home the risk. I’m a lawyer, not particularly a risk-taker.
Even if you think you do not want to have mastectomies, if you have a family history of breast cancer, please see a genetic counselor. Knowledge IS power. If you test positive, you can still greatly reduce your risk of having cancer go undetected by stepped up monitoring: my docs recommended digital mammography or ultrasound, (not just a screening mammogram, alternating with MRI every six months, after BRCA diagnosis, and as long as I kept my breasts. These tests are much more sensitive than screening mammograms, which were completely worthless for my twin sister. With the BRCA test result, if you are positive, you are much more likely to get your insurance company to pay for such extensive testing.
Sorry to be so long. I hope this helps.
A.
Thanks so much for posting your story.
Nevadamtnbear
Thank you so much for posting your story chocked full of such good information. I truly appreciate your contribution.
I’ve been having this debate with myself for about two years. My great-grandmother died of breast cancer, my grandmother had breast cancer and ended up with a dual mastectomy, and my mother had precancerous cells/tumors at age 30, and at the time, before the widespread use of genetic testing, elected for a dual mastectomy. Knock on wood, none of my mom’s sisters or my cousins have reported breast cancer. On my father’s side, there is little information. There’s a significant history of cancer in the men (uncles & grandfather passed from cancer), but we have little information about the women, but what I do know is my paternal aunt and grandmother did not have breast cancer. But, we don’t have any information about any other women.
I really have ramped up my contemplation, as I know have a daughter, and knowing my maternal family history and not knowing much more about my paternal family history – am I doing her a service or disservice by undergoing the testing? My mom has told me that if I elect to undergo the testing, she’ll be tested as well. And one or two of my aunts may elect to have the testing as well. That would provide the family with a decent road map. But, everyone is essentially waiting for me to pull the trigger.
If I elect to test, the good news is that I ended testing positive, I have a head start on identifying plastic surgeons – the doctor that did my mom’s implant replacement (she opted for saline originally) is awesome and did a wonderful job on her surgery. But, I also would want to talk to others as well.
Having two immediate family members who have undergone the surgery, I’m less concerned about the prospect of having my breasts removed. I’m not particularly “attached” to them. But, it’s a definite consideration – and that was the first thing my OB asked me when I started talking to her about the testing – “what will you do if you test positive?”
I hadn’t given much thought to talking to a genetic counselor, and that seems like a good place to start. Thanks for the feed back Cindy & Anon.
SUCL 3L
Some people may not agree with this answer – but I’m going to give my thoughts on the subject anyway…
My grandmother was diagnosed with breast cancer, I believe, back in the 70’s or 80’s and had a mastectomy of one breast. My mother died of breast cancer a little over three years ago. She was 53 years old and had been diagnosed a little over 2 years before with stage IV cancer (meaning it had already started spreading to other areas of her body). My aunt (mom’s older sister) found out about 12-18 months ago that she had a small non-cancerous growth (I can’t remember what the technical term is) in one of her breasts.
I’m 25 years old. My father and I discussed me possibly having the test done, but ultimately it’s my decision and I’ve decided not to have it done.
I know to some this may seem like a horrendously stupid idea. But my logic is pretty simple – what is this test going to tell me that I don’t already know? With a family history like mine, I’m already quite aware that statistically I run a much bigger chance of getting it than most. So again… I just don’t see how the test is going to help me.
I’m not disputing the validity of the test – for some it may be very useful (personally, I see it being more useful for people who DON’T have a strong family history), but I don’t think it will be for me.
As for having a preemptive mastectomy, that’s a very personal decision. Because I’m still quite young, I haven’t thought about it too much. But I don’t see myself doing it in the very near future. For right now, I feel the best plan is make sure I’m doing my regular self-exams and start getting yearly mammograms sometime in my 30’s (to hell with whatever that gov’t study said last year).
SUCL 3L
Another, lesser, reason I didn’t mention (which, again, may seem like a silly/stupid reason to some) is that I don’t want/need the possibility that I will get breast cancer hanging over my head anymore than it already is. Watching my mother die a slow, degrading death was enough to wake me up to the possibilities of what could happen to me. I don’t need a test to tell me that in 30 years my body may quite literally try to kill me. As it is, it’s already in the back of my mind quite enough.
Nevadamtnbear
Thanks for your story as well. If my family history was the evident, I probably wouldn’t be contemplating the testing either. I’m 35 and have been getting regular ultrasounds and now mammograms since I was about 28. Fortunately I’ve had nothing other than cysts thus far.
Cindy
SUCL3L — Not a stupid reason at all and in many respects you are right–you already know that you are at higher risk because of family history. I would just say that you should find a really good gynecologist or even gynecological oncologist and breast doctor who are well versed in the implications of your family history. If mine and/or my sister’s doctors had been, I am convinced her cancer would have been diagnosed years earlier.
University doctors are much more likely to be on top of this sort of thing, we have found. (She is in Wyoming; I am in Mississippi, so this is not just a localized problem of lack of knowledge.) Good doctors can give you the kind of advice you need about the best screenings for your situation, when to start, and how often, and, at your age, how to deal with the ovarian cancer risk (about 56 percent I think), which is almost more frightening than breast cancer risk.
Finally, remember that testing might show you did NOT inherit the gene mutatation, assuming that it does run on your mother’s side of the family. My younger sister learned that she is negative and therefore cannot have passed the gene mutation to her daughter, a huge relief to her.
I am twice your age and in a completely different situation than you for that reason alone. I don’t know that I could/would have made the same decisions if had been 25 when I faced this.
You are in good position to make wise medical decisions for your future (you’re smart and well-educated)–just find good doctors to give you the best advice. Best wishes.
ab68
I’m sorry about your mother. My mom was diagnosed at age 40, but she was lucky it was caught early. She’s been a survivor for nearly 30 years now.
The government study did not pertain to people like us who are high risk. You may want to talk to your health care provider now about the best timing for a baseline mammogram, and whether there are better mammogram technologies you should use (as Cindy mentions above — digital mammography/ultrasound). Your family history probably entitles you to all the detection bells and whistles that someone with a confirmed BRCA gene would get.
Amy
So I have several questions I guess. How good are Ann Taylor’s sales normally? This weekend, they’re having a 40 percent sale. Does it go any lower? Also Ann Taylor or Ann Taylor Loft?
I’m trying to gather a summer internship wardrobe and am debating returning the expensive (on a student income) Ann Taylor clothing and buying stuff from New York and Co. etc or keeping it. How long does Ann Taylor/BR etc. clothing last?
Eponine
40% off is probably as high as it will go. Ann Taylor is better quality than BR, in my experience – but BR is very low quality for the price, although their wool suits are nice. I don’t think you need a large wardrobe for your internship. Unless you have to wear suits every day, one suit, two work-appropriate skirts, a pair of slacks, 5-8 work-appropriate tops, a couple cardigans and two pairs of pumps should be more than enough. You probably already own half of these items.
K
I disagree on quality – my BR items have held up far better than anything I ever got from AT. That said, Eponine’s advice on how much you actually need is spot on (at least in my experience!).
Eponine
It’s possible that in the 5 years or so since I stopped shopping at BR the quality has improved, so my comment may not be accurate.
sc
I would not go with New York & Co. – I think it is visibly lower quality than the other brands. I would recommend spending the money on 2 quality suits on sale from someplace like BR/Ann Taylor instead, and finding nice scarves and shirts to mix it up. Also see if any cashmere/wool cardigans you have are work-appropriate, since if you don’t have to go to court they can replace a jacket and look like an entirely new outfit.. You may want to look on ebay as well – you have time before your summer job starts, and every once in while can find a great deal. Just make sure the listing says it’s new or almost new, and that you’re buying a brand you’re already familiar with! I did that during my clerkship last summer, and ending up getting about half a dozen suits over the course of the summer, all from Tahari and similar labels, for about $50-100 each.
Shayna
Both Banana Republic and Ann Taylor last much longer than NY and Co. – I have Ann Taylor clothes that I got tired of after wearing them constantly for a few years (pants, tops), and the colors were still good, the buttons weren’t falling off…
AH
How do you fend of nosy questions from co-workers when no matter how you answer, you are probably hurting your career? I am literally in my first month as an associate at a law firm. I was asked this week, by another first year, if I was planning to have kids soon. I honestly believe she was just trying to make conversation–she’s a few years younger, rather naive, and doesn’t understand boundaries in the workplace. My response of “That is a personal matter that I do not want to discuss with coworkers” absolutely shocked her and she had nothing to say for the rest of the lunch.
So, I do not regret not answering the question, or her earlier “So how is your marriage going?,” but I would like to handle these issues without making the other person feel like a jerk (especially for later on if I do have a child and want to avoid the inevitable questions that go along with that). Suggestions?
A.
I kind of don’t blame your coworker for being shocked because that was kind of a harsh response, no offense. But I also don’t blame you for being taken aback and blurting out something.
My best tactic for dealing with questions like that is the “pat answer – change the subject” response. When someone asks me if my husband and I are going to have another baby, I say “oh, you know, there’s plenty of time. So, what did you think about Project Runway last week?” The marriage question is a little weird – “how is your marriage going?”? What did she expect you to say? “He’s a drunk who beats me, but other than that, fine, thanks!” Since I have a strong feeling about things like this – I do not discuss my marriage with anyone except my two very best and closest friends, not even my mother hears about my relationship problems – I would just say “it’s super, thanks!” and again, change the subject.
She was probably just trying to find some common ground with you, but you’re correct to want to be wary about oversharing personal information with a coworker you don’t know well. I would practice coming up with some glib or funny responses to these questions (and you will get them constantly – once you get married, it’s about the first kid; when you have the first kid, you’ll start getting questions about the second, etc.) and then act breezy and nonchalant when you’re asked.
AN
Could you not say “Haven’ t thought about it yet” and change topic? I used to want to answer back the way you did, then figured it wasn’t worth pissing off co workers, who might not have intended to be nosy.
Chicago K
I probably would have said, “We haven’t decided yet.” and left it at that. As far as the relationship question…it is odd, but I have gotten it (my coworkers knew me before I met my fiancee. Before we were engaged, they knew I was dating someone new and would ask). I would just say, “Great, thanks!” And leave it at that.
I’ve tried the statement you used, and in my situation, it seemed to make people more curious. It was like they thought I was hiding something by not wanting to give an answer. Telling them, “That’s personal and I don’t want to discuss it at work.” Would sometimes get the response of, “Are you pregnant already?”
Hope this doesn’t backfire on you…but as I am a very private person, I have found I was creating intrigue by not sharing my personal life. So now I just give small generic statements.
Chicago K
Actually looking back at her question…I probably would have just given a flat out No. Even if you are planning on having kids, you don’t need to tell her that. And No kinda closes the door to more questions.
AH
I appreciate everyone’s feedback. My blunt, totally honest side comes out when I’m put on the spot and I don’t have time to put the filter on it. I think you’re right about the intrigue factor–I can just imagine the infertility and/or divorce rumors. I will have to wait and see the official aftermath, if any.
Anonymous
I agree with the “Havent thought about it” response. That way the door is closed since you have nothing more to offer on the subject. Maybe she has thought about it a ton and wants your input for her. In that case, she can say, “well I think…”
Also, I think people are just honestly curious someitmes and kids is an easy thing to talk about.
Eponine
I find questions like that really rude too. How does she know you’re not struggling with infertility or something? But I agree with others who say you need to give an answer that doesn’t reveal personal information but also won’t create more curiosity. For questions about kids, I’d just say “oh, we love kids, can you pass the salt?” and leave it at that, and for relationship questions, the answer should always be “things are wonderful, and by the way, did you catch last night’s Lost?” Hopefully she’ll take the hint.
Shayna
I’m single, and the youngest person in my department by about 15 years… and added to that I’m in the middle of the hierarchy, not the bottom, so I deal with that from both sides…
Your response was rude – her question was uncomfortabe, but probably only with friendly intentions. Just respond with a breezy “not today” and change the topic. If you think she’s not serious about the work matter at hand, return the topic to that, if you’re in the lunchroom, ask her where she got her suit/jacket/top/haircut. People love 2 things – talking about themselves and giving advice.
Anon
I don’t blame you for not wanting to answer. I’d work on a noncommittal, “I don’t know. I’m very focused on career right now.” It’s not her business, but just flat out telling her you don’t want to talk to her about it shuts down a line of communication that could lead to a good professional relationship.
KZ
oh, and in response to Amy, 40% is probably the best deal you’ll get. I think a lot of their stuff will eventually get to 50-60% off in sales, but by that time, it is usually an extremely limited size/color selection and it’s very hard to find things you like. 40% off is really good considering there doesn’t seem to be any limitations.
KZ
another random thought–for students, banana republic (and I believe j.crew) always gives 15% off in store if you show them your student ID.
Anonymous
So BR does give a student discount? I was almost positive I got an email from BR a few months ago that they were giving students a discount, but when I went to the store a couple weeks ago, the saleswoman (and another she asked) had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned it. I know jcrew definitely gives a discount.
GR
I don’t like the fit of the dress, but i like the color.
A.
A question for fellow spring allergy sufferers –
Is there anything not medication-related that you do to help yourself through allergy season? I am not big on taking medication and so many allergy meds (even prescription) make me feel spacey, which is not what I need at work (or at home, for that matter). I know some people swear by neti pot washes but my main problems are with itchy, watering eyes and a general malaise feeling. The symptoms seem to get worse every year and I’m kind of at my wit’s end. Any tips appreciated.
Eponine
Neti Pot and lubricant eye drops (my optometrist recommends Systane Ultra) work for me. If your allergies really are that bad, though, allergy shots could be worth the investment.
Delta Sierra
Neti pot for sure, feels gross the first few times, but after that, you’ll love it. I use a sprinkle of table salt in hot(ish) tap water.
And for me, Zaditor eyedrops, which were prescription up until about a year ago. Expensive but effective almost instantly, and the effect last quite a while, sometimes all day.
The malaise feeling, I get that too, but have no solutions:( OTC allergy pills either don’t work, or, if I get the ones with real pseudoephedrine (the ones you have to ask for at the check-out), make me just as dopey as the original malaise, and make my nose so dry it burns to breathe.
MelD
Patanol is probably the best eye drop for allergies, but when I stopped using it, the price was up to around $80 without insurance for a 5ml bottle. Zaditor/ketotifen works almost as well for probably $10 for the generic. I’ve heard everything else tends to have rebound issues so you have to keep using it on a daily basis.
I use the Sinus Rinse instead of the neti pot and love it. If I exercise or do something outside, I usually rinse right when I get home to get any pollen out immediately.
Do you have asthma? My symptoms are very minimal, so sometimes it can take me a while to realize I am having an attack. I don’t wheeze and while I do have shortness of breath, many times I don’t notice it until I start to get a headache or just feel exhausted. This happened yesterday morning and it took me until the afternoon to put 2+2 together.
A.
MelD – Yes, I do. And actually I hadn’t thought about that causing some of the problems – mine is generally really mild. I have a rescue inhaler I could be using. Thanks for everyone’s suggestions – I’ll try doing more frequent nasal washes and look into the better eyedrops. Thanks so much for your advice :)
mew
I use a saline spray morning and evening to help with congestion. (Used to just use it in the morning, but SO swears I’m snoring, so I’m hoping before bed use will help with that.) I try to get to bed early to help with the malaise, but it’s hit and miss. For the itchy, watery eyes, I have yet to find something that helps. Usually I just try to go easy on the eye makeup so it won’t get smudged.
Lucy
I take extra vitamin c, drink lots of emergen-c, try to cut down on dairy (it helps), and drink lots of water.
For eye itchiness, I occasionally do visine allergy eyes.
Karen
Agree the Neti pot is good for when allergies are bad, and I love Patanol. I haven’t tried lubricant eye drops but it makes sense that they’d help wash the pollen out of your eyes, with no side effects.
Also, I find that taking an extra shower (mid-day or when I get home from work) can help when there’s lots of pollen in the air. Or a more moderate version is to wipe down my hair with a wet washcloth before bed to get the pollen off it.
Anon
I use a product called “Alkolol” which is about $4 for 1 liter. You use a little nasal wash thing with it, similar to what I understand a neti pot to be. It’s a little harder to find than the neti pot (apparently oprah priased the neti pot, and now it’s all anywhere carries).
housecounsel
For CJ, I had a mastoplexy with a crescent lift only ,and small implant. I didn’t want larger breasts, but the small implant seemed necessary after the lift to give me some shape. Just make sure you are done having children before you have it. I had another baby after my surgery, and the resulting fifty-pound (I know, my fault) and loss were not kind to my plastic surgery results (my baby was, of course, worth it!!!) I’d like to have another lift now, but would need more than the crescent lift. Right now I have no visible scars whatsoever. A more drastic lift would result in the “anchor” scars. I don’t really care, but some people might be bothered.
Had the surgery on a Wednesday and returned to work Monday. It was pretty painless.
Chicago K
Long Question:
I am at a work location away from the rest of my team so I only see them a few times a year. When I do see them, I want to look nice, since I only see them a few times a year. But I always seem to get comments from coworkers (and one once from management) saying I look so nice I am putting the rest of them to shame.
What do you guys think of these comments, should I try to dress down to fit in more? Should I take it as a compliment, should I just ignore it?
Our dress code doesn’t require us to wear suits,but some people DO wear suits and a lot of men and women wear jackets. I usually wear cashmere sweaters or twin sets and pin striped trousers with a set of pearls. I am not sure what makes me look more dressy other than the quality of the clothes or just looking more put together?
I am going to see some coworkers next month and plan to wear a Brooks Brothers button up with trousers and pumps and probably pearls. I was considering wearing a jacket too but am now rethinking…
I should maybe add I am the only woman on the team…if that has relevance.
Advice, thoughts?
anonymous
i wouldn’t think twice about it. sounds like your coworkers are being nice.
Eponine
I think that looking nice is a good thing and you shouldn’t do anything different. If they only see you a few times a year, better they should remember you as polished and professional.
Shayna
I would keep doing what you’re doing — its ALWAYS good to have someone notice that you’re well put together – it means tht you present well, both in your clothing and your manner
Anonymous
I would not dress down. Keep looking nice! that being said, I have never “gotten” the idea of wearing pearls that is so often touted here… They would look very stuffy in my office.
Shayna
See, I actually love wearing pearls… They’re pretty, they look professional, and they go with silver or gold earrings :-)
Sara
on the thread above about personal questions at work- this is a pet peeve of mine too and I got a bunch of them this year. Male associate below me in the chain of command, in front of a senior manager: “Are you going to have babies? Is your vegetarianism an issue in your marriage” Seriously. I said “we are here to get through reviewing these documents tonight, and need to focus on that.” I couldn’t believe his lack of discretion. I like the idea of turning it back on them- “I don’t know, are you?” but in that case he has kids and wasn’t vegetarian so it wouldn’t work. Plus that would sanction the conversation, which I refuse to do. Generally I stay vague, breeze and move on asap. None of their business. Employees should have to take a workplace etiquette class or something.
Lucy
I have been asked several times how much I am paying in rent when I moved.
I was stunned.
I also think it’s way too common and very rude when someone complements you on something new you’re wearing, and then asks how much it was.
I have not discovered a good way of dealing with this yet.
I can easily avoid answering questions like “are you going to have babies (“oh, not any time soon . . . [change subject]”) ” but Qs that are just super personal and direct, I have no idea. .
AN
Lucy
Both your questions are favourites in the Asian country where I live! I’ve even had colleagues ask me whether my husband or I paid for our holiday, before delving into what room rates we paid!!! I just ignore it all (though sorely tempted to blast a stinging reply in return) as they’ll never improve (it’s cultural) and I will never stop getting offended.
Lucy
But how precisely do you ignore these types of questions? Do you not answer them (and if so, how exactly), or do you just ignore the impropriety of it all?
I try to give a quick (non too specific if possible) answer and move on, but I hate to share that information. I would love to say “I’d rather not say,” but this would definitely cause offense and thus is not really an option.
Eponine
I think the rent thing depends on the city where you live. I live in DC, and people talk about rent all the time. It’s kind of a big topic in a city where most people are renters and rents are very high. Condo prices are also frequently discussed. I wouldn’t consider it rude here at all to ask about that.
Anonymous
I don’t think it’s rude to ask about rents. Asking about the price of clothing strikes me as a bit odd, but I will ask female co-workers where they purchased something if I like it. When I get super-direct questions that throw me off (like asking about prices), I usually say that I can’t remember. People often get the hint, and even if they don’t it closes the door on that conversation.
péagoise
I’ve got a question about what being salaried actually means.
I’m currently a church secretary (waiting for the publishing industry in my city to straighten up and quit firing everyone) and am in a salaried position. When I started, my “boss” the pastor informed me that they aren’t too strict on hours there; although I technically work 8:30-4:30, if I’m done early, I don’t have to wait until 4:30.
The problem is, I NEVER have enough work to keep me busy until anywhere NEAR 4:30. I come in around 9 (the pastors don’t show up until 10 or so, if they come in at all) and am finished with all my work for that day within an hour or two. And that’s TRYING to be slow.
I told everyone I didn’t have enough work, so when a part-time secretary left, we didn’t replace her and I just took over her work. I still only work an hour or two a day.
So now with the weather so nice and my boyfriend’s schedule so flexible, I’m wondering how early I can actually leave. I know I need to be around more than just an hour a day, but I have all my emails forwarded to my cell phone and always reply immediately, even at 10pm. Is it acceptable to leave super early every day? I know there have been a few days where I’ll go around asking if anyone has anything for me to do and when they don’t, one of the pastors will inevitably tell me to go ahead and leave.
At this point, EVERYONE is aware that I’m a very fast, efficient worker and nothing (not even Holy Week with services every day!) keeps me busy. I’ve even had a long discussion with my staff-parish partner about it (who is the ultimate hiring/firing person at the church) so she’s aware that even with the additional work, I’m not busy.
So can I leave at 3 every day? I mean. does “salaried” mean I do my work and leave (within reason, of course, as part of my job is being “generally” available)? Thanks!
Chicago K
I’ll let the lawyers weigh in (as their may actually be a legal definition), but I think it really depends on the employer. I have worked for several colleges, and I know there the hours were super flexible – I would imagine a church is the same. Everyone came in at 9, left at 4 on Fridays, or 5ish on weekdays…got paid for lunch, and I got to leave around 2 or 3 if my work was done.
There is a salaried group like that at the bank i work at now…they have so many accounts to do, and when they are done, they leave. Some of them come in at 10 or 11 and leave or 2 or 3.
My area? We are expected to work 9 hours a day. Yep, even if we don’t go out for lunch, it’s expected. Personally, I think it’s ridiculous if there is not extra work to do. I tend to bend it a bit…working 7 or 8 when work is light. I try not to feel guilty because when I am busy I easily work 10 or 12 hours a day.
Kathleen Miller
I once held a full-time position that had occasional slack times. I chose to use substantial parts of the work day to train myself in new technology and to read in fields that were related to aspects of the business, even though not to my own position.
As a church employee with publishing interests, you might become familiar, for example, with the wide range of religious publishing (and copyright); and you might enhance your eventual résumé by developing a congregation-specific publication of your own. Have you analyzed all the written material your congregation distributes and discovered which pieces are missing or whether the overall “look” is consistent and up-to-date?
E
Are there projects that have personal benefit to you that you could do on work time? If your the person who’s interested in publishing, could you do some research on that, or work on a project that has benefit to the church but would also boost your resume to meet your long-term goals.
I work in a job that when the work is done, we go home. Now I usually work 80 hours a week, so leaving at four pm once and awhile is encouraged. But you might not want to regularly leave early all the time…it may breed ill will and have people question your work ethic. You have to figure out how important “face time” is to your organization, and go from there.
Karen
If you have a set of hours that are what’s generally expected, you should be trying to find enough to do to keep you busy for those hours most of the time. Take a look around and suggest projects that you can take on, if you really want to impress people (create or update a website? design some flyers?). Or use the time to learn something new or catch up on your email correspondence.
Every once in a while, you could leave at 3 or even 2:30, but if you do that on a regular basis it will make you look like you’re not committed to the organization. Keep in mind that this organization used to have two people doing your job. While you look good for being able to do both and still have free time, you embarrass your bosses when you rub their noses in the fact that even the two jobs only take you a few hours a day. If you start leaving at 3 all the time, they may start coming up with rationalizations that you’re not really doing the same job the previous secretaries were because you’re not “proactive” or “engaged” and are just sitting there waiting for work.
Also, your organization may be different, but in some part of the point of being a secretary is being there whenever someone realizes they need someone to handle a small administrative task, which may happen at 4 PM. If you’ve been told the hours aren’t strict you can take advantage somewhat, but if you take it too far then the organization starts to lose the value of having a secretary.
Shayna
Beyond the legal stuff, if you look like you don’t do anything, they may choose to cut your position
la peagoise
i have tried to get involved with our weekly newspaper but the staff person in charge of that doesn’t want to share or pass it on (or buy me a computer capable of handling the software). anything i do start, though, basically has to cost no money. we struggle to may payroll (which is stupid). but i have been able to change the look of the bulletin and a few other publications already. i think my main problem is i’ve run out of projects. i’ve already organized every closet i have a key to.
anyways, it’s such a small staff that everyone knows exactly what i do. i think they’re used to a bulletin taking a hours to finish and i do it in 15 minutes. i’ve basically lifehackered my work into being a model of effeciency. i’m not the one responsible for answering the phones; i’m more of a worship coordinator, so as long as everything’s ready for sunday and my emails and calls are all returned, am i good? nobody else is ever here anywhere CLOSE to 40 hours, but i’m figuring that it’s a little different for pastors than it is pastoral ministry team assistants. but *how* different?
(also, there’s no way they would every cut my position. things it takes them hours to type i do in 5 minutes, and that’s far, far too valuable for them. plus i do a lot of volunteer coordinating and everyone hates that.)
cj
If they’re struggling to make payroll and you’re never working 40 hours/week, I’d be really nervous about the job getting cut. You say that won’t happen, but what’s to stop them from reducing you to part-time and/or just paying you for the hours you’re present and working? I suppose a church is probably quite different from a normal corporation, but generally I feel you’ve described a situation where I would be very nervous about my job security.
Anonymous
As an employment lawyer, I would recomend they reclassify you to an hourly worker. lol.
Eva
I think you’re okay leaving early on occasion, but I would not interpret salaried to mean that you can just leave when you’re done with the day’s work, even if you’re reachable via mobile device.
Beyond that, I’d also be concerned that the more you make it clear you’re only doing 10 or so hours of work per week (max!), the more likely it becomes that they’ll decide at a budget meeting at some point that they should only be paying you for 10 hours per week and cut you to a part time or hourly position at a fraction of your current pay. So spread the work out, maybe help spearhead and organize some church volunteer projects that interest you — anything, really!
Shayna
I agree… you can never say never, and they’ll cut an administrative assistant salary way before a pastor’s — Also, now that you have found ways to do all of these things faster, someone may well decide that they can just emulate what you do – or their niece/son/daughter/friend can at a fraction of your hours (and therefore cost).
I say this having seen it happen before…
la peagoise
thanks for the advice.
as far as getting hours cut/terminating the position/being changed to hourly, i suppose this is really hard to understand coming from a corporate environment, especially if you’ve never spent a lot of time in a large church (or been on staff). most churches (and i say this as a preacher’s kid and a preacher’s sister) will do ANYTHING to avoid cutting hours or firing someone. even if someone isn’t doing their job. in my 23 years at several different churches, i’ve only known of one person being “hurried along to other ministry opportunities.” never heard of hours cut for assistants. then again, churches may struggle from time to time, but my churches have always been growing.
although most weeks i’m not super busy work-wise, i do more than just secretarial things. coordinating weddings, funerals, and worship mean that frequently, if 2 people die and there’s a wedding and a church retreat and it’s also during lent or advent or (God forbid…) holy week, they’re going to shoot themselves in the foot paying me overtime to be there coordinating… things.
i know that as soon as the ministers get things organized to where i can actually DO work for them, i’ll be busier. they’re just not used to having an assistant who is ABLE to take on large projects, so they simply aren’t prepared to give me the information i need. it’s just in the interim (and i’ve only been here 5 months, and the first 3 were spent undoing and reorganizing the mess that was left for me) that i have so much free time. although i don’t know why i feel i have to defend my worth as an employee to the internet, i do want to point out that not just anyone can do this job and do it well, especially coming from outside the congregatin (which is what’s best for this position). i have the ideal background to do the work, which is why i’m so good at it. so there you go. no, i am NOT worried about job security. my boss tells me in every email how much he appreciates all the work i do and how quickly i do it. my staff-parish chair is so excited about the things i can start doing. having free time is a GOOD thing. things in a church just move slowly; it takes time to discern the best new ministry to explore and for me to work on. eventually i will be busy. eventually, i will be taking care of new, vibrant ministry opportunities to help the church grow and expand even more. until then, though, i get done early.
i appreciate the words of caution, but honestly, churches are different from companies. and i’m different from a normal secretary. i was looking for a more general idea of what salaried actually means. a lot of things about a church aren’t 9-5, though, so perhaps i should have looked elsewhere for advice.
CL
Why don’t you just ask the pastor if it’s alright for you to leave as soon as your work is done? Fellow pastor’s kid here and I remember that the church secretary at my mom’s church would frequently leave early if there was nothing for her to do. (Of course she lived right down the street so she could also get back quickly if something urgent arose.) I would suggest sitting down with the pastor and discussing with him/her exactly what you said above about the lull in your workload and asking them if they’re alright with you leaving when your work is complete. Perhaps offer to keep your phone on you and be available until 5 in case someone from the office needs to get in touch with you after you’ve left and definitely do a lap around the offices to make sure that no one has any tasks you can help with before you take off for the day. My understanding of “salaried” means that you work as many hours as it takes to get the job done properly. You might be leaving early for a few weeks now but when 3 congregation members pass away during holy week plus you’ve got a wedding you’ll stay as long as it takes–even if that means going way past 5:00.
Nevadamtnbear
I think you probably didn’t get the exact answer you were looking for because, truly, it presses and arguably crosses the line of offering legal advice. And there are certainly real ramifications to those of us actively practicing to render such advice, even anonymously here.
Further, employment law is both governed by federal laws as well as state laws, and adding to the mix is whether working for a non-profit makes a difference. There are resources available to give you some guidance, as you can Google “what is a salaried employee” for example.
Also, the cautionary notes here are more likely given out of sincere concern for your position. I know that at my church they have laid off people and have cut pay as a result of the current economic conditions. I wouldn’t be offended by the suggestions.
Honestly, the best “advice” I can offer you is to have a matter of fact discussion with your pastor about your question. I think that if you sit down and convey what you asked here, you’ll get the answer you seek – do they expect that at this time you have an obligation to be physically present at the workplace even if you don’t have any other tasks to do?
Rather than operating on an assumption of what the law requires of you, or to weigh what ramifications you early departure may have, get the expectations expressly from your employer.
Good luck!
EM
Is a 30DD a real bra size? ::groan::
Any suggestions other than figleaves, herroom, or barenecessities? No lingerie store, even Nordies, in my area has any.
Anonymous
EM –
Yes!!! Try Bravissimo. They go upto a J or K :) Lovely bras, great support.
Anonymous
They’re online, so it’s http://www.bravissimo.com (Uk based)
Sarah
I have heard tell that you can get bra bands taken in. In your case, you would buy a 32D (definitely more widely available than 30DD) and get the band altered to be smaller while the cups are the same size as they would be on the 30DD.
anon
I think I would kill for a 30DD size. Maybe the grass is always greener, but it sounds pretty darn good to me… All of you on here talking about the hassles of finding support for larger breasts just make me envious with my tiny ones! (and, nowhere near a 30 band!)
SV
I don’t understand the aversion to the websites you mentioned, because they carry a lot of bras in 30DD.
See herroom, 6 pages of 30DD: http://www.herroom.com/search.aspx
Random
Ann Taylor is sooo picked over right now… just the big sizes left.
KZ
(that was reply to CJ in CA. For some reason my replies don’t seem to be threading like they should)
mew
I recently bought this dress in the navy dot for a weekend dress.
http://www.bodenusa.com/en-US/Womens-Dresses/Knee-Length-Dresses/WH205/Womens-Favourite-Jersey-Dress.html?NavGroupID=4
It fits great and is very flattering and comfortable. (In fact I love it so much I went back and ordered it in the pink.)
It’s so comfortable that I’m wondering if there is a way to make it office appropriate, at least on casual days. The dots are sort of tan, not white. And I have a pair of heels in almost the same color. But I’m still not sure. Any thoughts?
Eponine
Jersey isn’t a great fabric for teh office, but if you’re business casual I think you could do it with a cardigan that matches the dots. You also could style it with a top that covers the top of the dress completely, so it looks like a polka dot skirt.
anon - chi
Cute! In my office, this would be fine with a cardigan or jacket on a casual day. I would try to dress it up a bit with your shoes and other accessories – maybe nude pumps and pearls?
Lucky2L
As my commenter name suggests, I am a very lucky current 2L currently weighing two summer job offers. To provide some context, I go to law school in NY, but both of these jobs are in NJ (I grew up there and heavily included it in my job search given the current job market – I’ve had other legal experience based in NJ as well). Either way, I’d spend the summer living at home with my parents and driving to work, so housing and transportation are insignificant. That said, I thought I’d ask for a little input from all of you…
Offer #1: paid internship; in-house work with a large corporation. I would be working with the General Counsel and 10-12 attorneys in the legal department. A personal connection elsewhere in the corporation helped me get this job, and I happen to know that they have never had a legal intern before, so I’d be the first and only one. I have no exposure to corporate law (have worked with judges and currently do litigation work through a law school clinic) but it’s something I’d like to explore.
Offer #2: summer clerk position with a small/midsize firm (about 35 attorneys). I was told that the firm was planning to hire 3-4 law students for the summer, but haven’t heard a peep about compensation. The firm has 6 or 7 core practice areas, so I know I would gain exposure to a lot of things I haven’t had the chance to investigate before.
I have reservations about both, though:
– compensation? I know I’m lucky to have two fantastic opportunities, but in planning my finances for law school I had banked on earning some money during the summer between 2L and 3L year. If the firm job is unpaid, that’s a big negative.
– clerkships? The firm is politically connected and I think that I would have a better shot at landing a clerkship after graduation with their name on my resume, rather than the corporation’s. I’m not set on clerking, but it is something I am seriously considering.
– firm culture? According to the firm web site, there is only ONE female attorney (a partner), and is otherwise made up of mostly significantly older partners – if I had to guess I’d say a lot of them are 60-65+. Just an observation. I also noticed that there are very few associates and even fewer recent law school grads, so their program doesn’t strike me as one where the summer clerks receive full-time offers.
I’m planning to take both the NJ and NY bar exams, but a lot of my legal experience has been in NJ, so I’m wondering which position might look better on my resume if I decided I really wanted to work in NY after graduation. My current interests lie more with litigation than corporate work, but it’s fairly one-sided since I’ve never done anything on the corporate end.
Thanks in advance for your input, ladies!
3L Sarah
I have been that “first intern” before, and it was a mixed bag. Most of the time they didn’t quite know what to do with me, and I ended up playing solitaire most of the summer. When I did have projects, after I did them, there was no follow-up, and when I asked (repeatedly), I was told, “There is no need to keep asking this question. It was fine.” I was left wondering what “fine” meant, especially after they sent out a majorly edited version of what I did. Do you know what kinds of projects you’ll be working on? Do they have any deals lined up that they could include you on? Do they have an actual plan for you? I would ask these questions first, because even though it’s a paid position, it could turn out to be worthless.
Why not ask the firm if the position is compensated? IMO, you would get more good experience working at a firm, especially one that is used to getting interns. Good experience is worth more than compensation. No one doesn’t bank on making money in one of their summers during law school. Even if you don’t think they’ll hire you at the end of the summer, if the firm is as well-connected as you say, you shouldn’t have much problem finding a job for after graduation. Regarding firm culture, have you heard anything through the grapevine about the firm and how they treat their female summers? If you haven’t heard anything, then everyone is probably pretty cool.
Just my .02c…
Karen
I agree with Sarah that if the company doesn’t normally hire interns, then you may find that you don’t get good work or have a good experience. It could be interesting and valuable to see how a corporate law department works (many have some in-house litigation or at least oversee litigation being done for the corporation by firms, so it might not be just corporate that you get to see) in case you ever want to go in-house down the road. Also, it might be a way to make some contacts who could refer work to you if you end up at a firm after law school. That, however, assumes that you’ll actually get to know people and they’ll get to know your work, which may not happen.
I’ve never heard of an unpaid law firm position. I’d just ask them. As for the culture, it sounds pretty similar to what you’ll be dealing with at most law firms. It might be a reason to choose a different law firm, but to me it’s not a reason to choose a completely different summer experience over the law firm job you’ve been offered.
Good luck!
Anonymous
If they are creating an extern position for you, I would think twice before turning it down. Is there a posibility you could be hired there? I think alot of it will be what you make of it – in otherwords, if they dont have projects for you, go find one. Or ask to accompany people. Inhouse jobs are hard to come by in my neck of the woods and it is experience you wouldnt necesarily be able to get elsewhere.
As for the firm job, I know of no summer positions that are unpaid. Otherwise, sounds like everyother firm job. One thing might be the built in social life. Since you will be living at home, it might be nice to have some buddies.
CFM
smaller firms in dc are all doing unpaid “clerkships” and internships right now. I interviewed for two before realizing they meant they wanted me to work for free.
CJ in CA
Yeah, it should be paid but that doesn’t mean it will be. I recently saw an “internship” where the intern would be filing and making copies and answering the phone. That’s not a learning experience for anyone- it’s a job. If you’ll be working without constant supervision on projects that they’ll be billing for I think they have a legal obligation to pay you, but in this economy it’s a growing issue.
anon - chi
I think you need to ask some additional questions at both the corporation and the law firm. I know that seems awkward and you may be worried about making a bad impression by asking, but you need more information to make this decision. At the firm, I would suggest asking in an upfront way what the compensation will be. They already offered you a position – this question should not come as a surprise to them. I would also ask about what types of things you can expect to be doing during your summer. They should be able to give you a basic idea of what tasks you will be doing (i.e. drafting memos, performing legal research, maybe shadowing attorneys at court, possibly doc review). If they CAN’T tell you what you will be doing, that seems like a big red flag. Personally, I think it is also appropriate to ask whether the law firm is willing to hire someone right out of law school. You don’t want to come across as assuming you will be given an offer, but it would be worth knowing if it is a possibility. Regardless of how “well-connected” the firm happens to be, I would NOT count on finding another equally good job during your 3L year – many firms have slashed or even eliminated 3L hiring, even at places like NYU and Columbia.
As for the corporation, you may want to ask more questions there too – particularly about whether you will be doing exclusively transactional work or whether you will be involved in any litigation. You say your experience has been litigation-focused so far and that you are seriously considering clerking, which makes me think that you may not be destined for corporate law.
skl
Not sure where you are located, but there is a wonderful store in NY called Linda’s Bra Salon. The help and selection is incredible I buy all my bras and bathing suits there.
You can order stuff online. I find my size varies between brands (recently in Chantelle– the brand I’m wearing I’m a 32G!), but you can return stuff, so it might be worth it to order a few and see what works.
Some may consider the prices a little steep, but I think it is 100% worth it. The first time I went there and put on a bra that actually fit, I felt (and looked) much better.
L from Oz
I’m wearing a Chantelle bra today, and they definitely have smaller cup sizes than most – I’m also wearing 32 G and I’m normally 32F /34 E. (Not that that’s small, but the G was a bit of a shock!)
My nicest bras are all Empreinte – lovely, but not cheap.
Anonymous
Agree – it took a while for my mind to get used to 30GG when I bought from Bravissimo, but they do seem to have small cup sizes as that’s probably a 30D/DD in most US stores. But I look 5 pounds lighter!
3L
Job hunt advice please:
I found a great position that seems to be the perfect fit for me posted online on the career page of a major i-bank. I applied online and also asked an old classmate from my alma mater to fwd on my resume and cover letter to someone he knows there (as I have no direct contacts myself there). I would really like to avoid my application getting sucked into the “black hole” of the internet and don’t know how or if this remote contact will help me since he’s in a completely different group. Anyone have any advice on how to best secure an interview for this position, short of camping out in front of the i-bank’s building (unless that’s what it takes)? Thanks!
Lucy
Try sending it directly to the department you’re interested in (as opposed to the HR dept).
Also, see if you can search their website for alumni connections you may not know & maybe send them a letter saying you both went to X School, and this is your dream job, and if they would consider passing this on, it would be amazing.
Eponine
@ 3L – I second the suggestion to try to find alumni of your school who work at that i-bank and contact them. Let them know you’ve applied for the job, but you should also try to network generally – say that you’re very interested in obtaining a position in that field, and you’re reaching out to alumni to learn more about the market and get advice. See if they’d like to get coffee with you sometime.
IMO alumni networks are probably the most powerful connection for networking, and yet so many people seem not to take advantage of it at all.
BethInNY
AT 40% off code — isn’t this supposed to be “save40”? That doesn’t work for me for some reason!
Anonymous
I * love* the shoes. Could take or leave the dress.
anon
Above someone was asking about items needed for a home office..
Along those same lines, can someone recommend a printer/scanner/fax/copier? I was thinking of getting one of those laser all-in-one printers, but have no idea which are good and/or worth the money. I’m not really sure how much I’ll use it — it may just turn out to be for emergency evening/weekend work use — but if it turns out to be helpful then I may start using it more. I have no printer now, and have managed to exist for awhile like that.
Also, on the laser ones, how often does the “cartridge” (is that what it’s still called) need to be changed? Is there a lot of maintenance in general?
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Karen
I have a Brother 7820N. It’s bigger than I’d like (all the multifunction machines are) and I really only use the print and copy functions. For those, and for my limited use, it’s quite good. I bought it a couple of years ago and haven’t had to change the cartridge yet.
L from Oz
I have a Brother HL-2040 laser printer (not a multi-function model) which I bought in 2006, and I’ve only changed the cartridge once, despite being a pretty heavy user. Definitely recommended.