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Weekend Open Thread

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Sam Edelman - Sanford (Whiskey Leather) - FootwearSomething on your mind? Chat about it here.

The lace-up boot trend is hot right now, and we're totally into it — it strikes us as Victorian and modern at the same time. This pair is $274.95 at Zappos.com. Sam Edelman – Sanford (Whiskey Leather) – Footwear
(L-2)

391 Comments

      1. They have been coming back into style! I see a lot of hats like that one in DC.

  2. Has anyone here been in either an open marriage or in a relationship with someone in an open marriage? I’m single (but busy with not a ton of time to date and just out of a long term relationship so not sure I want to get back into one) and was asked out by a man I know in an open marriage. Most of the stuff on the web I’ve found pros/cons of seeing someone in an open marriage sounds like it’s written by people who are college students or non professionals… and the man (and his wife) are in their early 40s and I’m in my early 30’s and a working professional.

    1. Dan Savage addresses open relationships at least once a week on his podcast, although I don’t think age is usually the issue.

      My sense is that most people in open relationships are on the younger side because at some point, most long-term couples have kids and it’s a lot harder to have an open relationship when there are youngsters wondering where their parents are when it’s not working hours. But if the couple either doesn’t have kids or has managed the system relatively well, I don’t see what impact your or the couple’s age should have on your calculus.

      On the other hand, I think a lot of organized swinging occurs among older people who can’t just pick up a third at a bar as easily as a hot young couple.

    2. I am friends with a couple who have an open marriage, and I once tried it with a long-term boyfriend.

      Personally, it wasn’t for me. But if this couple has a good realtionship with rules that work for them, and you are OK with the prospect of going out on a date with someone who might not be available for the long term – I say go for it.

      Just make sure you keep your expectations – and his – in check. Some open relationships are more like bringing the third person back to their bedroom…some are just like dating multiple people. Just get the rules clear, know what you want, don’t get jealous or too attached, and have fun with your dates and enjoy his company. :)

      2. That’s because gregor liked men too….. lisbeth would have found her handy dandy golf club……

    4. My first piece of advice is to make sure this man is really in an “open relationship.” A lot of men say that and it’s news to their partner/wife that the relationship is “open.” My best friend ended up in that situation and ended up being named in a divorce when all was said and done.

      Secondly, I would think about how you will feel about his “open relationship” if/when you fall for him and you want to get serious. What if he won’t leave his wife? What if he wants to continue his relationship with you and his wife indefinitely? What if you decide you want children and he’s not on board with that? Conversely, what if you see this as a casual thing, and he wants to get serious and you don’t want that?

      What happens when you want him to go with you to an event and he’s already committed to be with his wife somewhere? Are you really going to be OK with that, or will you feel resentful? How would time be shared between him and the other partner? On that same token, is he really OK with the relationship being “open” on your end as well? I have heard of situations where the man pays lip service to the idea that the second partner will be able to date other people but then is not really gracious about it in practice.

      I also would think about how you would feel if he wanted to “integrate” the relationship, i.e., have you meet and spend time with his wife (or even go further than that).

      One more thing. I also think that while we all like to believe our friends and families are open-minded and nonjudgmental, in practice I don’t think people are all that open to polyamorous relationships when it’s their daughter, sister, friend, etc. involved. I would say the percentage of people who will “understand” your relationship, and not be either horrified or feel sorry for you (“that poor girl, she’s stuck in the permanent “second fiddle” position with some schmucky guy who likes to cheat on his wife”) is going to be pretty small. You may have to be selective about who you tell about the relationship and how much you tell. How do you feel about that?

      This is not something I would ever be able to do, but I understand some people do it and it works for them. Fictional examples aside, I have never seen people in polyamorous situations have a static, happy situation that lasted a long time. But if you really like this man, and want to explore it – I think as long as you go into it with your eyes open and be realistic about your own feelings and expectations, there’s probably not a lot of harm that can be done.

      1. Totally in agreement. I tried a polyamorous relationship in college, and it lasted for about two whole weeks. Until Valentine’s Day. I realized that while I might be okay with him dating other people, I wasn’t ok with the thought of losing out on holidays or on him not being available to me certain nights of the week.

      2. To build on what anonymous said, I would say don’t do it unless either 1) you were into the idea of having an open relationship with someone before this, so you know this is something that you’re into, or 2) you just want to bang someone, and are confident that you can do that without getting emotionally involved.

        Ultimately, this fellow’s primary connection is to his wife- you would not be emotionally connected, able to count on him for boyfriend things (i.e., take care of you when you’re sick, surprise you with nice things, help out when your car breaks down, etc.), probably not introduce him to family/friends, or make any long term plans. But if that’s cool with you, I’m not going to say don’t.

      3. Pretty sure my ex-husband told his girlfriend something like that. Yeah, it was news to me when I found out. That would be why he’s an ex.

    5. I dated someone all through high school, exclusively and we decided to “see other people” in college but were still “together.” I was not ok in practice with the idea of him being with other people and being with me. While I was just occassionally kissing a guy at a party, I didn’t know what he was really doing and it felt dirty. We were also in love and everything just felt so wrong when we were together after that.

      The up side for you though, the “open relationship” was the first step in us breaking up. I am no married to someone I started talking to and hanging out with while the ex and I were still technically together. So, there is a chance his marriage is “open” as a baby step to divorce. That said, even after officially ending things w/ the ex, I needed a few months before I was ready for a serious relationship with my now husband.

      I had to kiss a couple jerks to realize single life, to me, isn’t all that it is cracked up to be.

  3. Can anyone recommend a place to buy a nice black pashmina-like wrap? Similar style to the ones sold on NYC streets for $5, but of nicer and thicker material. Around $100 price range.

    1. I saw some nice ones at Nordstrrom Rack (in Union Sq.), and in the past have had good luck at Lord&Taylor (get a coupon from the website). Brooks Brothers has some beautiful cashmere ones, too, but a bit more than $100 I think . . . though I think it’s a corporate sale this weekend so maybe check them out.

    2. look at pashminastore.com — I’ve bought several wraps here and have been very pleased, both the lighter and the heavier weight ones. Prices are reasonable.

    3. Yes, I’m obsessed with Love Quotes scarves. The linen blend for summer, the rayon blend for winter. I think I’m up to 5 now. I believe “meditation” is the black color. Online they can be purchased at tobi.com, revolveclothing.com, and I’m sure a zillion other sites (6pm might even have the eyelash fringe ones, which are a little smaller, on sale right now.)

  4. I bought this dress to wear to a casual party next weekend. Any suggestions on how to style it? I’m thinking black tights and black flats, but not sure on the shoes. I looked a little, and saw the Nurture flats (second link) but they may be too casual (rubber soles, that wouldn’t work, right?). Saw some cute patent leather ones, which didn’t sound right for tights. I never wear dresses, so not really sure what would look good. Any suggestions welcome. Also looking for a cute necklace.

    http://bit.ly/dzRWzp
    http://bit.ly/czhclb

    1. I think dresses like this look best with round-toe pumps. With so much leg showing, I think a flat tends to stumpify. But if you don’t do heels, I think those flats are fine.

      1. No, I like pumps, I normally wear pumps with my pantsuits, with a 2-3″ heel. I just thought flats would look better with this kind of casual dress, but I’m totally open to pumps, although I don’t think any of the ones I have would work. I’ll expand my search. Thanks!

        1. I wouldn’t do pumps with this dress. I think the flats are cute, boots would work (depending on your climate), if you want heels — I’d do wedges.

          2. My sister wears a similar style dress with boots all the time, it looks great on her. I just can’t find boots that fit, I’ve got giant calves and skinny ankles, darn it. I’ve also got some black leather ballet flats with the criss-cross elastic straps that might work, I’ll have to try them on with the dress. I don’t love the elastic straps, though, so may buy the Nurtures. I love that brand of shoe, they are so comfortable.

        2. I just think pumps with that short of a dress make one’s legs look fab, casual or no.

      2. I have these bohemian, flowy-type dresses and love-love-love them. Mine are mostly Bob Hale, maker of awesome silks in gorgeous prints!. I wear them with snazzy slingbacks/strappy heels for night-time (http://bit.ly/bEhnpu) or wedges or chunky mules or sandals for a daytime, more casual look.

    2. I think black tights and these shoes is fine; the black patent leather ones will work as well. Just make sure that the black tights are good quality and really black–sometimes the inexpensive tights get funny looking light patches.

      Have you thought about black leggings? I don’t know how heavy the material on this dress is, but they might look nice. I bought two pairs of black leggings at Uniqlo this weekend, they are really light material and one pair has a loop that goes over your ankle and heel–not a stirrup pant, the loop goes behind your ankle. Something like these might be a slightly different but nice look.

      1. I tried it on with leggings, and thought they were too bulky. I love the shoes linked above at Lord and Taylor!

    3. i may be completely off on this, but what about tights with t-strap mary-jane looking pumps? slightly more casual than regular pumps, I think. I caveat this with I don’t own any because they look weird on my feet, but I always think that combo looks cute on other people with dresses like that. I can’t seem to find a good pair online, though, which may mean they’re completely out of style and you should ignore everything i just said…

  5. This is a question for DC residents. Ladies- I am a new transplant to DC (my first week here!) and am looking for recommendations for (a) a good but (hopefully) reasonably priced hair salon/person and (b) a waxer. My apartment is in the Adams Morgan area and my work place is close to Farragut North station. Any recommendations (or warnings) would be much appreciated!

      1. I use Anita at Ibiza Day Spa in Foggy Bottom for waxing. She’s great! She’s really efficient, and not super painful. I really like the way she shapes my eyebrows, AND have gotten compliments on them (which never happens to me).

        For hair salons, I don’t know what you mean by “reasonably priced” but I have yet to find a good hair salon here that is “reasonable” so I am also interested to hear other people’s answers!

    2. Yes! Go see Eve, who recently relocated to Salon Rouge in Dupont — 636 17th Street NW. Their phone number is 202-232-2974. (She used to be at VSL but has upgraded salons recently.) I’ve gone to her since I moved to DC 5 years ago, and she’s the *only* person who’s ever made my hair look good. Plus I can go a while without needing maintenance cuts and the cut doesn’t lose its shape. She used to be in the $60 neighborhood for a cut/blowdry, but her rates may have gone up with the move. She’s TOTALLY worth it, though!

    3. tanya at polished in georgetown is great for waxing. cheap and fast. and good.

    4. I highly recommend Yvonnick at Nantucket Salon. He’s a fabulous french man who does great hair. The salon is located near 14th and H, and the prices are reasonable (about $120 for cut and color). I’ve been going to him for about 10 years now, and over the years, we’ve tried just about every color and style (I have fine, straight hair, fwiw). I’ve always been super happy with the results.

    5. Odie O’Dell at St. Germain in Penn Quarter for haircuts ($95) – he is incredibly skilled (actually, you probably couldn’t go wrong with any of the stylists at St. Germain), and one of the nicest people I know.

      1. VSL Hair Design in Dupont, on Connecticut. Ask for Fatia. I’ve been going to her for 5 + years and I always love my cut. I don’t dye my hair, but apparently she’s a great colorist too. Cut and blow-dry runs around $45 sans tip. For waxing in the Admo area, try Mint Spa on Florida & California.

  6. You have to try Maria at Brazilian Wax Center (in the Last Tangle salon) near Dupont Circle. Oh my lord, is she wonderful. No pain, super-efficient. For hair, great place for curly hair (but also straight) – Fiddleheads salon – Dupont Circle (17th and P). Welcome. This is a great time to be in DC (fall weather, I mean).

      1. Thank you all for recommendations! I love Corporette and its audience. What a wonderful place to get advice.

  7. I have 2 networking questions.

    1- I went to a panel discussion at my law school last week on the exact area of law that I want to practice in. All the speakers were wonderful, but 1 person in particular was incredible. She is a partner in a firm instead of in house counsel like the other speakers were. I did not get a chance to speak with her after the panel but I did ask a question during the panel, which she answered. I would like to have a chance to talk with her about her career path and any advice she has for someone who wants to enter the field. Do you think it is appropriate for me to email her (now 8 days later) and invite her to coffee or is it too late? Is there a better way to handle this? Networking is definitely not my strong suit.

    2- I went to a networking event at my school last night. I met an attorney who suggested I email him and we could get lunch sometime since my internship is 4 blocks from his office. When should I email him? Should I do it today or wait until Monday or sometime next week?

    Ok, I guess I have 3 questions. Assuming I meet both of these people, would a black skirt with a sweater and jacket be a good choice? I have a nice black skirt, brown sweater, and that brown Gap jacket featured a few weeks ago. I was thinking that was nice looking but not overly formal or too casual.

    Thanks in advance. I wish networking didn’t make me so nervous. I’m sorry if this posts more than once, I keep getting the message that says you are posting too quickly.

    1. 1. Yes, e-mail her, it isn’t too late. Hopefully she will be really open to meeting with you, but remember that she is likely to be super busy and you may not be the only one who contacted her, so try not to be too disappointed if you are not lucky first time around.

    2. Networking is worse than dating. I totally agree with you. How long should I wait? Don’t want to look to eager! Etc. Ugh.

      1. And I’ll add, it is worse when it is co-ed networking and you have to ask yourself “he asked me to lunch to network, not date, right?” Yours sounds super clear but I once got asked to meet up for lunch after a fundraising event and it dawned on me as I drove home that if this person were asking me out it would have sounded just the same. Luckily I saw him at another event before we did lunch and it was very clear it was with the intent to network. I hate having to worry about it though and I wonder if guys worry about the same thing when they try to network with powerful women.

      2. See, I actually find networking (marginally) less painful than dating – if only because the outfit is much more standard! Not a fan of black and brown if they’re too close together (i.e. light brown will be ok, dark brown just clashes). Good luck!

        1. This is why I included the outfit comment. The sweater is a rich darker brown but not super dark. I thought with the jacket as well it looks more intentional. Really, the reason I was thinking of this outfit is that I don’t have another jacket that isn’t a wool coat or suit jacket. The jacket and sweater look great with jeans, but I thought that would be too casual. The brown looks off somehow with the gray pants I have and the khaki pants I own are too casual.

          1. Ah – I would go with a suit. Being over dressed isn’t a bad thing in terms of networking – being under dressed can be deadly.

        2. I am not a fan of the outfit described. To me, networking = nice suit. Always.

    3. 1. Go ahead and email her. 8 days isn’t too long.

      2. You’re overthinking this. When do you want to have lunch? Email him at least a few days in advance. It’s fine to email the day after you met him.

      3. The outfit sounds fine although some people consider it a faux pas to mix black and brown. I think so long as it looks intentional it’s fine.

    4. 1. Yes, email her. Tell her you attended the panel and especially enjoyed her presentation, remind her that she answered your question about ____, and you’d love to take her to coffee to learn more about her, her career path, how she got to where she is, etc. Make sure you make plans at a time that is convenient for her — be flexible. And make sure you’re the one who pays for the coffee, meal, etc.

      2. Email him now. You can always follow up next week. I know what it’s like to be in your shoes, but now that I’m on “the other side” of things, I would never think that someone emailed me “too soon” for a networking opportunity. In fact, I’m usually impressed when I get a quick follow-up, because they are fresh in my mind.

      3. Your outfit sounds lovely.

      Good luck! Be yourself. Smile. Be honest. These are just people too. Ask questions that you are interested in, and be interested in them. You’ll do great! :)

      1. Ditto! If they came to your school, they are probably interested in helping students just like you.

    5. Agree with everyone else, yes, yes any time you want, and yes.

      I would add that you probably shouldn’t feel like you “have” to wear a jacket. If you want to because you like the outfit, that’s great, but I think that nice pants and a sweater with some cute jewelry would be perfectly appropriate for lunch, and especially for coffee.

    6. Hi Jen L! Hopefully I can help you with this question. I LOVE networking and strongly believe sometimes it’s more important WHO you know than WHAT you know.

      1. Definitely email her. It would have been better to email a few days after, but 8 days is certainly not too late. Introduce yourself again in the email and tell her where you met her, that you found her really interesting/helpful/whatever and you’d love to meet her for coffee to talk more about her career and her path that led her there.

      2. When is your internship? Is it now or during the summer? Either way, email him a few days after you met him and follow up. Just say it was a pleasure meeting him and you’d be available for lunch on xyz days.

      3. No offense, but your outfit sounds terrible. Brown and black sound terrible together, although I’m not sure what Gap jacket you are referring to. I do think a suit might be a bit too formal for just a coffee or lunch meeting, especially since it’s not an interview. Why don’t you stick with a black skirt, low conservative heels, and a button up shirt or twin sweater set?

  8. Plastic surgery question (posting with the hope I don’t offend a milliion people)– have any corporettes had plastic surgery while employed? I know lots of professionals that had procedures, but everyone seemed to do it in grad/law school or undergrad. I’m curious about how people would react and the effect on your perceived professionalism if you came back to the same job with a new nose/new boobs etc.

    1. I gotta say, whether fair or not, I doubt a new set of boobs would do wonders for your reputation at an office. Nose might be a bit different b/c you could always say you had a deviated septum or something, but boobs…well that just conveys the message that you’re oversexed or want to be a Playboy bunny. Again, not fair.

    2. A woman in my office had a nose job, and unfortunately, it was a topic of office gossip for a VERY long time. She also happened to be generally insecure, constantly “confided” in various other women in inappropriate situations, wore clothes that were 1-2 sizes to small, and “secretly” dated someone 3 titles her senior, so she was a prime target for lunch room conversations already – but I’ve got to say the nose job really didn’t help her case.

    3. A senior-level woman at my last job had her eye area done and came to work before she’d totally healed. It was obvious and the subject of a lot of gossip, but she didn’t care. I have to say, though, that new boobs or a new nose could cause you to be negatively perceived as shallow or a sexpot.

      If you do have surgery, make sure you take into account the recovery time. You don’t want to have visible stitches before going to trial or something.

    4. One of the female partners in our firm had breast implants, I only knew because we’re friends and she told me why she was taking a week off when she had the surgery. She generally wears button-down style shirts to work, or knit shells with fairly high necklines, and honestly, it’s not that noticeable. I guess it depends on how you dress and how much bigger you go.

      I’ve thought about getting a nose job, I was thinking I’d use the old “deviated septum” story and tell people at work the surgery was necessary to help me breathe. And gosh, wouldn’t you know it, they had to reshape my nose while they were fixing it. Yes, I know correcting a deviated septum doesn’t require changing the shape of your nose, but most people seem to accept the explanation. But, again , I guess it depends on if the change is subtle or drastic.

      1. This. I got breast implants while working in a professional position several years ago. I planned it for early winter time when I knew I would be wearing sweaters anyway because you can’t wear a bra for awhile afterwards. (I think it was 6-8 weeks, maybe longer). So I would just wear layers with a chunkier sweater on top and wore wife-beater type of tank tops underneath. (Sorry for the term, just can’t think of any other way to describe them).

        I only told my direct supervisor, and she told no one. I had the surgery on a Wednesday afternoon, so I only took two and a half days off work. By Monday I was able to go back to work. It wasn’t a drastic change either, so as mbs said, it would not be that noticeable to coworkers.

        1. I got a new set about 9 months after starting as a first year associate at a law firm. I took a week off to “go home to see my family.” I didn’t tell anyone at work. People could have been talking, but if they were, I wasn’t aware of it. No one said anything to me, although shortly thereafter I did start to receive some unwanted attention from some of the married male partners. That could be purely coincidental, but realize that issues like that could arise if it’s noticeable.

      2. +1

        One of my very good friends just got an augmentation while working in an office. She has worn padded bras for so long, that, honestly, I don’t think she looks any different in clothes and I knew she was having the surgery and I see her every day.

      3. Haha I think they only accept the explanation to their face. No one is going to say “You are lying, a deviated septum doesn’t require changing the shape of your nose.” I think its pretty much understood that “correcting a deviated septum” means nose job when the nose changes.

      4. Actually my daughter’s septum is super-deviated, apparetnly it kept growing much longer than it should have, and it made her nose crooked. So when she has is corrected they will also fix that. So its not that far fetched!

      5. I got a breast reduction (1.5 cup sizes) and followed a similar tactic to that described here. I planned it for the winter time, wore lots of bulky sweaters before and after, and I don’t think anyone really noticed. (In fact, I was just beginning to date a new guy at the time — now my husband — and he didn’t notice until, well, it became obvious in the course of things and I told him.) A few people said I looked like I’d lost weight in the spring when I went back to a bit more fitted clothing.

    5. Probably not the direction you are headed, but approximately 2 years into my career as a litigator at a small firm I had a breast reduction. I was out of work for a week and a half and worked 1/2 time for a month or so as I recovered. Everyone in the office knew what was going on but those outside my office did not know (if people noticed-no one said anything or acted any different). There were a few awkward moments in the office when I had to ask one of the male partners to scale back the air conditioning because I was very sensitive to cold as I recovered, but otherwise no problems. I think working at a small office where we all know one another well helped.

      1. I think reductions are more accepted anyway as a lot of people need to have them for medical reasons.

    6. It would help to know what specifically you were planning to have done. I had a nose job done (luckily, while not employed) and it took me a week to look decent, and I think I was one of the lucky ones (no black eyes, minimal swelling). If you have the luxury of taking two weeks off, you will feel so much more relaxed about the whole process and you will look that much better when you get back because you will be somewhat healed. Oh, and make sure you get something else done (like a hair cut or if you have straight hair, go curly , etc.). People will comment on that change instead of the one you did to yourself. Definitely worked for me.

    7. I am an attorney and I have had plastic surgery while employed. First, let me say that most people are not very observant in general. In my office, for eg., I’ve worn Outfit A to work, gone home at lunch to change and returned with Outfit B. As long as the change isn’t extravagant like starting the morning in a stunning suit and coming back after lunch in blue jeans, no. one. notices. People don’t really note what you wear, or how you part your hair, or your new take on eye make up, unless you TELL them. Don’t tell them. Keep your business to yourself.

      I had breast augmentation about three years ago. I took ten days off for vacation. I returned with new boobs (went from a barely B- to a full C) and no one noticed. Of course, I didn’t intend them to notice, and I also didn’t start arching my back and wearing tight sweaters to show off the new look. I absolutely did not feel the urge to confide.

      I also got an eye lift last year. I noticed my eyes were constantly puffy – I used all kinds of eye potions, tried different eye shadows, etc. Fruitless efforts. I finally realized only surgery would do the job. I went thru the same routine; took a vacation, waited until I healed to return to work, used my usual eye makeup style upon my return, and this time, I got a tan while I was healing. No one noticed anything except that I looked tan and rested and happy.

      My opinion is: don’t tell; don’t parade the change; take enough time off to heal, don’t complain beforehand that your are unhappy with whatever body part you wish to improve, etc.

      In the end, I feel much more attractive and confident and happy, and that’s what matters to me. And I can’t emphasize enough that you cannot confide in anyone at work. Husbands, friends, family, YES! People in the office, NO. Gossip is the oxygen of work life, even when you are a professional, maybe even more if you are a professional.

      My recommendation is if you want it, do it, but please pick an excellent surgeon. I researched a long time before I took the leap.

      1. A woman in my office had breast augmentation and even though she didn’t confide, it improved my impression of her. I thought she was a boring stick in the mud before.

    8. hi attorney,

      I had breast augmentation when I was working as a legal secretary (my job prior to law school) and I am now an associate. I only had to take a few days off for my surgery, and honestly it wasn’t even noticeable. I always wore padded bras before anyways, and my surgery didn’t result in abnormally large boobs, so it wasn’t noticeable unless I was wearing something skimpy, which obviously you wouldn’t wear to work. I can’t speak for other types of surgery, I can imagine something on your face would be more difficult to hide . . .

  9. Possibly a silly question, but I’ve been stocking up on things for winter (woolly tights etc, as it’s getting down to about 6 C mornings and evenings here), and have run into a problem. What colour do you wear on your legs with brown boots? I don’t like the look of black – perhaps very dark grey? The shop assistant suggested brown, but I can only match one of my two pairs of boots. My office is casual enough to allow me to go for some colour, but at 25 euros a pair for Falke I can’t afford to match many of my winter tops. What might work as a coloured neutral. Burgundy, perhaps?

    Help much appreciated – I like wearing skirts and boots in winter but feel the cold if my legs aren’t covered with something fairly thick.

    1. burgandy or navy are surprisingly versatile, i also have a pair of deep purple/plum colored tights that are great

    2. Gray, burgundy, and argyle are my favorites with brown shoes. I also wear brown tights and don’t really care if it matches or not.

      1. I am going to an event tonight where I’m wearing a multicolored knit dress that hits above the knee, and black tights with brown suede Mary Janes. And I’m 45 years old. So there, LOL.

      2. Grey and burgundy, check. And non-matching brown…hmmm…will have to wear boots to department store and have a good look around.

        Black + brown would make perfect sense, but I really can’t bring myself to do it that often – probably doesn’t help that my boots are a fairly light shade of brown.

        i’m nobody – interesting point. Mind you, I’m short enough that nothing will really make my legs look unstumpy! More seriously, in my current non-US location skirts are generally worn above the knee (I get comments if I go longer, actually) so there’s usually enough leg showing to keep things in proportion, even if the tights are a different colour.

        Thanks!

    3. boots make many women’s legs look shorter and stumpier. i suggest matching your legwear, as close as possible, to your boots rather than your tops.

    4. I saw a woman today with a pair of cream tights that looked marvelous with her brown boots and jewel toned outfit.

    5. I usually wear some sort of pattern- either a brown pattern or maybe a beige/taupe pattern. For a neutral solid color, I’d probably go for gray or navy.

  10. Help! SO is taking me camping in November. I am a cold weather wuss (who is also non-athletic). I am looking for pants that will keep me warm, and yet can be worn for light hiking and still look cute. I’ve looked at Kickbooty Tech Stretch Pant (http://athleta.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=53610&vid=1&pid=790992); Under Armour ColdGear Fitted Pants; (http://tiny.cc/3tf07); and LL Bean’s Comfort Trail Pants (http://tiny.cc/nf7hy). Any experience with any of these or any other recommendations?

    1. I have bad circulation and always feel cold. It is my policy to wear leggings under jeans when I do outdoorsy things in winter. I find that the leggings retain my heat and the jeans block the wind/keep out the cold. (I am not being totally scientific here.) Not sure this is what you’re looking for, and you probably don’t want to wear your cutest jeans on a hike. But this would be my recommendation for myself.

    2. Get silk long underwear and wear it under your regular pants. It keeps you really warm, but breathes enough that you won’t overheat.

      1. I second this! Silkies by Hanes ( i think) works really well. They don’t look super sexy when you’re gettng undressed, but….your SO is goig to have to cut you some slack, since the camping trip in the cold was their idea!

        1. This. I got three different layer types (thin to thick) from winter silks (dot) com…moved for 3 years from Texas to DC/Maryland. Don’t think my upper arms ever saw the sun while I was there. I’m cold most of the time and being “up north” was just freezing for me. Wore the winter silks under slacks etc. constantly. Got their shorties to wear under skirts and dresses. A lifesaver. Have fun – bring along some antihistimes in case of rashes, bits, and leaf mold. Don’t forget having a real s’more if you like those. Enjoy.

          1. Chuckling….
            not at you but at moving to DC/MD as the north….

            but only because I moved from MD/DC to Chicago….lol!

    3. Layering is important, up top and down below. I’m a huge fan of long underwear in general. I think any of the pants you listed would be fine–DO NOT wear jeans. Aside from the risk of ruining a nice pair, they aren’t very warm, they’re very heavy (relative to hiking clothes), and they will not dry if you get wet. You don’t want that 1 in a million chance of something going wrong and being stranded outdoors, soaking wet and freezing. If you can, try out the pants you get on a morning walk and get a sense of whether the pants are warm enough that you’ll heat up while hiking–that way you can save the long undies for camp and not get too sweaty (and then get a chill) on the trail.

      Have you also thought about hat, good socks, shoes? And a warm sleeping bag!! There’s nothing less romantic than shivering all night.

      backpacker.com, rei.com, gorp.com are all good resources. Have fun!

      1. check out Steep & Cheap (steepandcheap[dot]com) from backcountry[dot]com. Great discounts on all kinds of basics and not-so-basics.

    4. I’d go for the LL Bean pants, or something similar from Prana (website seems to be down right now), which makes really flattering hiking pants (my tailor said ‘nice pants’ when she hemmed them – and they’re just casual pants.) The yoga-type pants could easily snag on a tree or rock, while the nylon is more abrasion resistant.

      Depending on the weather when you go, you might not need longer underwear for hiking. I’m a big hiker, and I find that unless it’s near freezing, I get too hot with long underwear under my hiking pants – but I do wear longer underwear tops. Keeping the top (=core) warm is more important than keeping the extremities warm. And you want to be able to lose some body heat as you start moving and warming up.

      Wear layers on top, take a hat and gloves, and have a FUN!

    5. Not sure where you’ll be or how cold, but on the NE, Nov hiking and camping is COLD. I mean outdoors COLD, not cute Athleta cold. People think some of those pants are ok, but if youre in the woods for 8 hours a day, you’re gonna want some warm, windproof pants.

      I suggest the tights style silk pants underneath a pair of winter style hiking pants. And for the hiking pants, I’d go with a reputable outdoor brand, not a cute girl pant brand. Patagonia, EMS, REI, northface. . . look at those. They’ll be just as cute and much warmer.

    6. My sister who lives in Wyoming taught me this–we’ve done a lot of cold hiking and camping, including Glacier last year. (I live in Mississippi and think it is cold when it is much below 80!) Get some of those “hot hands” hand warmers and stick them in your pants pockets. They work wonders to keep your entire body warm when worn in your front pockets.

      Smartwool microfeatherweight long underwear is also wonderful.

    7. If you live anywhere near an REI, go there, find a clerk, tell her it’s your first trip and you have no gear, and ask for help. I did exactly this last year (actually had gear, but no clothes), and she steered me towards wonderful long underwear, pants, top, etc — not one of which was anything like the most expensive available. Wear warm socks, and make sure you take some extra socks and camp shoes so you’re not stuck wearing your (probably muddy, probably wet) socks and hiking boots at camp.
      Have fun! I’m actually really jealous — work’s been so insane I don’t think I’m getting out at all this season. :-(

  11. I am looking for a very small purse or clutch (just big enough for wallet, phone, couple makeup items and keys) to carry inside my larger bag, so if I want to go to lunch or a quick coffee run I don’t have to carry my larger bag or just a wallet. I was thinking something in black leather that would look professional, go well with suits and easy to grab and access stuff without taking up too much room.
    Does anone have some suggestions or a favorite they could recommend?
    Thanks for the help!

    1. Marc by Marc Jacobs makes nice wristlets. They come in different colors & are very simple & cute.

      I also have a simple black quilted one by — gasp — Vera Bradley that I reallly like…. B/c it’s cotton, it seems roomier, but b/c it’s black , it seems prerfectly subtle enough to run out for a lunch/coffee break.

      1. I also have a VB plain black quilted wristlet (wonder if it’s the same one?) – I don’t see it on the VB website anymore, but in my experience individual retailers often have different merchandise than is online. It’s nice and lightweight and roomy (holds blackberry, small wallet, phone, lipstick, keys, building pass) but still very toss-in-work-tote-able.

    3. The Coach Kristin line has some nice small bags. My aunt has one that she uses just as you described.

  13. Am I the only person who just doesn’t like boots in any way, shape or form? I mean, fine if other people wear them, but I don’t see the appeal and I can’t ever say I’ve seen boots that I thought were attractive.

    1. For what it’s worth, I’ve become obsessed with boots because I have essentially given up on work-appropriate pants. I’ve wasted so much time trying to find dress pants that fit and look good on me–finally I just said screw it, I’ll wear skirts and dresses year round, and keep warm with boots. It was more of a practical thing.

      1. I feel the exact same way. Don’t know what it is about my body but pants shopping, whether it’s for work or for the weekend, NEVER turns out well for me. I have a grand total of two pairs of jeans that fit me … discounting a few pairs of shorts for the summer, everything else in my closet are skirts and dresses. It’s just not worth it.

        1. Same here. Plus it’s easier to wipe off boots than it is to dry clean pants.

    2. You are not the only person, I loathe boots! My mother used to make us wear boots at the smallest sign of inclement weather, and I hated being the only person on the school bus wearing boots. I have not worn a pair of boots since I was a teenager, and I live near NYC!

      However, I did buy my first pair of boots this year–soft, crumpled ankle boots that I am going to try to wear with black leggings. They are really one step away from shoes, not for wet weather, and have more to do with my infatuation with leggings than any real desire to wear boots.

    3. Yes, agreed. I think this is both regional (I grew up in SoCal, and the closest I got to boots were Uggs, which were surfing or swimming-related at that time) and due to your “experiences” with boots. For instance, when I moved to the East Coast and onward to London, all I could see were TRASHY secretaries wearing boots (think red patent, Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman-style). No one who wasn’t “staff” wore boots. Nowadays, I do think boots are a bit classier, but still not for me. There’s just some sort of sex-kitten connotation about them that I can’t shake, even if they’re decidedly not preppy, like riding boots, even when done well, by Hermes or the like. (BTW, I am an unabashed preppy person, so that could factor into it!)

    4. I am pretty sure I was the only person in downtown Chicago today who wasn’t wearing either skinny jeans / leggings tucked into boots.

      The. only. person.

      I cannot believe the popularity of this trend!

      1. A couple years ago on a particularly cold day in NYC (NYU area) a passerby commented to his friend that I was the only person he’d seen that day not wearing boots. My feet were cozy in my moccasins, but the peer pressure made me want to go out and buy boots immediately. : /

        1. I hear you abut the peer pressure. I stopped into Ann Taylor at lunch to try on skinny jeans. And I almost bought them too, except they weren’t having one of their seemingly monthly sales and the jeans were 90 bucks. Seemed a bit much when they will probably being having a sale in another month, so I’ll just pick them up then.

    5. I love boots beyond measure and I really like the posted boots. Alas, boots are never appropriate where I live, along with coats and scarves and other cool (and cool-weather) things.

  14. I love corporette, love shopping online, and have been consistently trying to upgrade my wardrobe as I have more money and more responsibility in my position. My problem? My utter lack of confidence while shopping. I walked in to Theory the other day, and the shopgirls were a little cool towards me and I instantly felt like I didn’t. belong. in. their. store. Part of it has to do with my body image issues — I’m near the top of the size range for some brands, and I think that factors in, but it’s not just that. At work, I am totally take charge. When I shop? I hate trying things on, am convinced everything looks awful on me, and want to run from most stores. I also feel a total lack of interest from the women in the stores. Is it what I’m giving off? Any one else experience this? Any tips for getting over myself so that I can not feel like crying every time I need a new top?

    1. Oh! Try not to feel like that, E. One of the most helpful pieces of shopping advice I ever got was that the clothes are supposed to fit you–not the other way around. If something doesn’t fit, it’s the failure of the piece of cloth, not the human being.

      For confidence in the actual shopping experience, I’d suggest hiring a personal shopper/style consultant, if you can afford it. If not, hopefully you have a friend (like me!) who likes to go shopping with her girls and pick things off racks that she thinks you would like. It might help you to feel less timid if you walked in with someone else who did feel comfortable in the store–and who thought it was the most natural thing in the world for you to be there, too.

      Finally, don’t go back to a place where you were actively made to feel uncomfortable. Retail staff are supposed to be welcoming. If they’re not, vote with your feet (and dollars). They blew it, not you.

      1. I agree — hire a personal shopper! Not only is this a professional who will help you feel more comfortable knowing what you want, but it will really help you get comfortable with the whole shopping experience.

        As for how to feel comfortable, I would say either don’t go to stores that make you feel unwelcome, or do what I do and just ignore that awful feeling and ask for what you want. The first few times I went into Brooks Brothers, I was asked if I needed help finding my father a present. I just became a bit of a b*tch at that point & as soon as I acted a little snotty, they were much nicer. Sometimes it’s more trouble than it’s worth, of course, but don’t let anyone intimidate you from shopping somewhere you want to shop.

    2. From working in the dregs of retail throughout high school and college, I can tell you NOT to take it personally if they look miserable; they may already be miserable, and it’s not because of you. :-) Also, depending on where you shop, some stores actively train their employees not to help with outfits; employees are there to make sure there is enough stock on the floor, ring up people, and run the fitting rooms. The only stores that do this, however, are ones that don’t pay commission to their retail associates. So again, don’t take it personally. Retail’s a funny, funny business.

      I agree with surrounded to get a personal shopper or take friends with. Personally, I don’t like shopping with friends (my own shopping insecurities at play here), but it might help you feel better if you go into a situation armed with an entourage. :-D

      1. Yes, I am actually a veteran of terrible retail jobs as well. Didn’t mean to say that all non-smiling people in the store are snobs–just that you can avoid those that are. Thanks, Sarah, point well made.

    3. Try to go to the store with someone you’re comfortable with. Also, wearing something that I know I look good in, with makeup, always makes me feel more confident when I go into stores. Whatever it is that makes you feel good, whether it’s lipstick, heels, hot pink underwear or whatever, wear it with pride and know that you belong in whatever place you deem to be acceptable.

    4. I’ve been here – For me it was b/c I was fat. But now that I’m a size 4 I still have issues… I conquer them by reminding myself that I out-earn the snotty sales girls by quite a bit.

      And, really, I prefer to shop w/out someone in my face – that way you can take the time to figure out what you like rather than what the salesgirl’s commission is going to be the highest on.

      1. Ugh. As a veteran of retail (like several other commenters here), I can tell you that part of the reason the girls are snotty is because you’re going in with the attitude that you “out earn them by quite a bit.” I could spot that attitude from a mile away when I was working in retail!

        And, I obviously don’t know how much you make, but keep in mind that it might not even be true. It’s not unheard of for retail managers in large stores to make six figures. And they can work the floor just like the lowly “snotty girls.” Heck, sometimes district and regional managers work the floor and it’s not unheard of for them to make well into six figures. Also, when I was working retail, a lot of the girls worked it as a second job despite making more than enough to live on at their first job.

        2. Sorry! I used to work retail too – and I didn’t develop the “I outearn you” attitude until I realized that the attitude I was experiencing was in fact contrary to customer service.

          Frankly, whatever you do, you should do well – and if you’re selling dresses in a boutique you should be doing just that – not looking down at me because you think I don’t embody the aesthetic of that store.

          1. I think my point was lost on you, Shayna. Perhaps I didn’t make it properly.

            Maybe you didn’t consciously develop the “I outearn you” attitude until you received bad service a few times, but it sounds like, now that you’re developed it, you go in to stores with it. So, you got bad service times a & b, and now you are going in to stores times c, d, e, etc. with this attitude, so you continue to get bad service. Even if you don’t consciously go in thinking it, the fact that you would readily admit that you tell yourself that shows to me that you are going in to these stores with a very specific, off-putting attitude.

      2. I’m “fatter” than you were, Shayna, before you lost your weight and I have never, ever had problems in stores. Because I used to work retail, and I always walk in with a good, nonsolicitous but nonsnotty attitude, and try to be as nice as possible. Yes, there are some stores where there’s attitude thrown at me – I just don’t go back there. It’s more than made up for by the stores where I walk in and the salesladies come over and give me a hug! No offense, but you seem to blame a lot of your problems on the fact that you “were fat” but you’re thin now and still having the same problems. I don’t think it’s the weight that was the issue, honey.

        1. That’s nice for you – but I doubt we were in the same stores out of the millions in America so please don’t presume to know what experiences I have had or whether I have a bad attitude.

          Frankly, aside for a very minute slice of my life that I have shared parts of here, you know nothing about me.

          And if I need an xyz dress I’m not going to let some bitchy sales girl run me off.

          1. Not that I agree with ugh or the attitude, but undergrad in econ, accounting person, used to be overweight, jewish, knits, has a blog, loves ebates and NGDGTCO, went on a date with a lawyer.. .you do share quite a bit, I know more about you than Kat.

            The I out earn you comment was very offputting, but I don’t think you meant it as badly as it came off, but I think that’s where the strong reactions came from.

          2. Don’t forget lives in NJ, just took the CPA exam. Was recently interviewing to change jobs, entire family is buried in a cemetery where you have to follow strict jewish guidelines…

            When you comment all the time, on every subject matter (even those where you are not knowledgeable like the work of a lawyer) then you can expect that people will remember what you said, especially when it is seen as snotty. You may not like it but you make your presence known on this blog more than the writer of the blog does. You also are one of very few who has a picture which adds to the persona of being on here all the time. I usually don’t read people’s names when they comment but I always know its yours because of that picture. You may not like that people respond nastily to your comments more often than others but I think it has to do with both the quantity of your comments and your tone. I wouldn’t even notice if someone else said something snotty 7 times in a row b/c I never notice it is them.

          3. Honestly? You come across as sharing a lot more than a “minute” slice of life here, hon. You seem to have an opinion on everything.

          6. @It Suddenly Got Cold Out – She also posts a lot on Jezebel, and the only reason I notice is the picture.

        2. That’s nice for you – but I doubt we were in the same stores out of the millions in America so please don’t presume to know what experiences I have had or whether I have a bad attitude.

          Frankly, aside for a very minute slice of my life that I have shared parts of here, you know nothing about me.

          And if I need an xyz dress I’m not going to let some bitchy sales girl run me off — and your attitude and condescension speak volumes about your attitude. If you came into the store I worked with you bitchy words and let-me-look-down-at-you attitude I would have still been pleasant – which clearly is more than you are capable of.

    5. You are not alone! I feel intimidated sometimes by the store and / or the people working there, and sometimes I am overwhelmed by the choices. It has nothing to do with your size–I am a size 4 and I also think most stuff looks awful.

      I finally have just learned to force myself to take a ton of items in different sizes into the dressing room and try them all on, including colors or styles I am not sure about. You know that by trying on a lot of items, you will have a lot of rejects, and somehow this makes it easier.

    6. To help develop confidence and find what really looks good on you – grab your closest, most stylish friend and ask her to go with you. If she’s a truly close friend, the whole shopping experience will be completely judgment free – and because she’s stylish, she’ll help direct you to what looks best.

      As for “snotty” sales girls, just ignore them. The vast majority are probably just bored out of their minds (I, too, worked retail in highschool/college). If you continuely get bad attitudes and bad customer service, there’s no reason you have to keep shopping there.

    7. True story: I went into the J. Crew outlet and looked around for the size 33 (that is 14 in regular sizes) before I asked the clerk for help. “33? . . . Mmm. . wow, . . . haven’t seen any 33’s lately.” My loud response: “Really, 33 is super giant, huh? J. Crew doesn’t make any clothes for big fat ladies like me?”

      1. LOL at Anonymous 9:38pm. You rock. Will have to say that next time I hear something along those lines. I worked retail for a while and had customers come in and make $1k and higher purchases – the sales associates that judged by looks would lose the sales because they were so narrow-minded.

      2. Confession: In college I worked in a super fancy toy store. Sometimes people would come in, comment on how expensive something was, and ask where our layaway department is. I honestly didn’t know what layaway was or how it worked, and so I would always reply about how we would be happy to hold something for them for 24 hours (the store didn’t have layaway). In my mind, we were “laying it away” from the floor for them to come back because they couldn’t carry it home, which was always good during the holidays when there were runs and we sold out of stuff. (I have never personally ruined as many children’s christmasses as when I worked the holidays at that toy store). I was always so confused with the customer’s replies, and they usually replied something in the vein of Anonymous, about how we only make toys for rich people (not the case). It wasn’t for another couple years when I saw my first KMart Layaway holiday commercial that I knew what they were talking about…

        So sometimes the sales people aren’t being mean, they’re seriously just clueless… :-)

      3. What a good response! Its something I would think of hours later and kick myself for not saying at the time.

      4. How is it the sales clerk’s fault that JC corporate does not make your size? Maybe your size was so popular and they were sold out, hence the “I haven’t seen this size lately?” Your comment was misdirected – you should email the CEO rather than bash the sales clerk. That person has no say in what color/size/style the store stocks.

        1. Thank you! While I completely agree that it is terrible that J. Crew and many other companies don’t make sizes for many women, as a retail associate, you have NO control over it. I can’t tell you how many people complained about the sizing, quality, quantity, colors, etc to me. I really really wish I could have done something about it or that there was a suggestion box or something to pass along, but there wasn’t. What it was was someone ranting and taking aggression out on me for something I could not control. Which is probably why the sales associates are bitchy.

        2. Good Lord! Her tone was outrageous. People are so grumpy on here sometimes. Have you been to J Crew? The only size on the shelves of the store near me (not the outlet) are XS. I know Mrs. Obama DOES not wear extra small.

    8. Have you tried doing some style research before you shop? While my body issues are different (late twenties but I look 15, no curves, super petite but definitely not “slight”) I’ve started reading style blogs written by women with similar body types. I’ve learned how to deconstruct an outfit, adapt both classic and trendy styles to my body and get tips as to where to start shopping.

      If you’ve done your research and have some ideas of what you’re looking for, you’ll feel far more confident when to walk into the stores.

      1. This is so true. I’m plus sized and made it a point to bookmark and follow several plus sized bloggers. I may not always like the oufits that they feature on a given day, but they have been a tremendous resource when it comes to identifying retailers and etailers who cater to women 14 and up, or those typically straight size establishments that try to accomodate us.

    9. Do you two REALLY talk act like this in stores? “Oh, I out-earn you” and snark them because the store doesn’t carry stuff in your size? Not cool ladies, not cool at all.

      1. FWIW, I’ve never done either of these (and to TBF, I think Shayna meant that she uses the “I earn more than you” internally as a tool to avoid feeling intimidated, not necessarily saying it out loud to anyone), but I often get frustrated by retail people (usually the ignoring me to the point of avoiding me when I actually NEED help finding something and then rushing to introduce themselves as I walk out of the dressing room to make my purchases). Retail people perhaps don’t deserve to be the whipping boy they are on corporette right now, but they are not quite as blameless as you make them out to be. They often judge customers based on their appearance or perception of how much money they think the customer makes.
        Also, to the OP, I have no affiliation whatsoever to Nordstrom, but I get consistently friendly, helpful service every time I shop there regardless of the store location (and they sell Theory, Elie Tahari, and Kate Spade, and many of my favorite brands).
        Just my .02

      2. If someone asked for a size that YOUR STORE DOES CARRY BECAUSE IT SAYS SO ON THE SIGN, did you say “I don’t know if we have any more in that size but I will look” or do you stand there and make a lot of stupid noises like the person is a freak? My guess is that you did the latter based on your post.
        I worked in retail for exactly 30 days. It was awful and boring and most of the women were very shallow. Went back to waitressing in a flash.

    10. Just remember that those snotty girls are, literally, just the hired help, no matter where they work! Chin up!

      1. When I was a size four, dressed in high quality clothes, sales staff would fall all over themselves to help me. Now I’m a fourteen, and these clothes I do consider temporary, so they’re not BB, Dana Buchman, etc. I am INVISIBLE in stores, and yes, it ticks me off. I get what Shayna is saying, and I don’t think it’s that she has a “I make more than you” attitutude, it’s that if you are going to work retail (and undergrad I did), you had been have a service attitude, not a condescending attitude. I do not like it either when I walk into a store, as a customer, and get attitude from the staff. I’m the customer, for heaven’s sake, and they’re there to provide service for me. If they come to my place of business as a client, I’m there to provide service for them. That’s how it works, and there are a lot of people working retail who don’t/won’t get it.

        Ironically, when I had the experience of shopping in the souks of Marrakech, I was the idiot who did it in nice shoes, and Chanel sunglasses. I was sized up in a flash, and the prices went up! [apparently, in the sizing up, Chanel accessory trumps Old Navy pants.]

        Worldwide, from souks, to Target, to boutiques, you are going to be sized up on appearance, and yes, it will affect the sales staff’s interaction with you. I get that. What I don’t get is being nasty or dismissive to a potential customer because of their clothing or size. That’s just rude.

  15. I am also a terrible shopper! I know what looks good on other people, but don’t know how to pick out things for myself. I also can’t ever figure out the right way to maximize my shopping money. I tend to blow a lot on something stupid, and then later have nothing to wear. What does a personal shopper cost? have many of you had success with them?

    1. I think they are free at most dept. store w/the caveat that you are shopping in that dept. store. Sometimes that translates to making purchases b/c you feel guilty that someone spent 2 hours w/you & will not be earning a commission if you do not buy anything.

  16. Do any of you have creative hobbies that you devote considerable amount of your free time to? Personally, I enjoy cross-stitch and sewing. If I had more time on my hands, I’d love to learn knitting and crochet but alas, such is life. On the (rare) occasions I mention my hobbies with just about anyone I know through law school (or other high achieving people), they look at me like I have five heads and proceed to make fun of me for being “an old lady.” The fact that I have two cats doesn’t seem to help. Anyone have the same experience? Should I keep my non-professional interests in the closet?

    1. I cook and bake and my coworkers love me for it because I bring food in almost every week. Maybe knit something for them? Yes yes, I know, this is not advised by NGDGTCO, but so long as you’re not embodying every single female stereotype while you knit, I think Lois Frankel would be fine with it.

    2. I knit and I get that look – mostly b/c it sounds old-lady-ish … when I knit my dept scarves for Christmas last year those looks vanished b/c they were cool and funky – not old lady-ish at all.

      But if you can’t prove that it’s not an old lady hobby then, unfortunately, I would refrain from mentioning.

    3. Yes – I sew quite a bit. I also do cross-stitch/embroidery and some multimedia/performance art. I have a friend in law school who also is more on the “arty” side, and we are usually treated strangely by our peers when we mention our hobbies. I had a gallery showing last summer and not only did none of my law peers come, they acted as if I wasn’t taking my primary career choice seriously. Whenever I get reactions like that, it’s hard for me to not ask why their hobbies are gossiping, binge drinking, and video games…but I usually bite my tongue. It’s perfectly reasonable to have a driven professional life and have other pursuits on the side (no matter how strange) – I appreciate those who cultivate rich private lives. They’re definitely more fun to talk to!

      Oh – and your peers saying it’s an “old lady hobby?” Their problem, not yours. Be honest and proud about what you do.

      1. Hey, I’ll announce it to a bunch of strangers: I read Tarot cards! I would never tell my co-workers or boss, and I assume they would think I was insane for doing it. Whatever. I actually kind of like having a thoroughly non-work “secret” side. I’m not kooky about it at all, but I don’t need anyone’s judgments to the contrary.

        1. well i don’t exactly go around with a megaphone announcing what i do, but i don’t keep it a secret when asked.

          1. They “work” insofar as they make me take a different perspective on things, help to clear my head, and sometimes give me ideas. I never rely on them to answer straight questions about what is going to happen in the future–that’s not what it’s about for me. But when you pose a question and really tap into your intuition, some very interesting things can come up.

      2. I knit also – I actually learned while in lawschool and used it as a means of breaking up some of the ridiculously long meetings/elections for the moot court board. Several of my friends in lawschool also knit and for the most part we all do it as a way to have something to do with our hands while watching tv or hanging out. Definitely not an old lady hobby!

    4. I definitely don’t think you should keep your interests in the closet, but people often seem to find others’ hobbies (no matter what it is!) to be boring.

      My favorite thing about hobbies like you mentioned is that when you DO find someone else who loves them, you have an instant bond. I collect fountain pens, and so when I find another person who can talk about nibs, ink, etc., we instantly have a connection.

    5. I crochet (learned from my mother). I do sometimes get the sideways looks and chuckles. But, eh.

      Most people realize how “cool” it is when they see the beautiful afghans I’ve made for friends as wedding gifts and the super cute hat/scarf combos I wear during winter.

      Now that gets me thinking – maybe I’ll crochet a throw for my office!

    6. bottom line: know your colleagues.

      i came out to my firm as a yoga teacher. they were supportive. it was wonderful.

    7. I knit, crochet, and spin. Most of my friends at law school know I do it, but I don’t talk about it much around them, and I won’t take it with me when I hang out with them the way I will with friends outside of law school. I do have it listed as a “interest” on my resume- but I’m conflicted about whether I should.

      I don’t talk with my law student friends about a lot of my interests. It’s probably not healthy, but it works. Law school doesn’t seem to encourage deviation from the binge drinking/partying norm.

    8. I bake. I enjoy decorating cookies/cupcakes. Like the first commenter, I recognize this is not advised by NGDGTCO, but my baking is darn good and my co-workers love it (of course, we also don’t have offices… Just a giant room, so I guess I don’t need to worry about not getting the corner office).

    9. I crochet. Admittedly, I’m somewhat in the closet about it with coworkers. If some one comments on something I have made, such as a scarf or hat I am wearing, I let them know that I made it and they are usually impressed. It helps if they can see that you are making something fashionable and unique and not a horrid grandma sweater.

      I have a group of women that I meet with once a week for wine and knit/crochet time. I don’t tell anyone at work about this – if anything I just call it a women’s group, but I don’t mention what we do there. Check out http://www.ravelry.com for groups. Most cities have some sort of “stitch and bitch” group, so you can meet people of similar interests. Forget law school students! There is something about law school that brings out the judgmental side of people – it must have something to do with everyone’s insecurities. You will benefit greatly from having friends outside of law school.

      1. Love ravelry! I currently meet with a knitting/spinning/crochet group once a week for drinks and knitting. When I move after graduation, the first thing I’m going to do is find ravelry groups in my new city.

        As an aside, it’s great to hear from all of the other corporetters who craft. It makes me feel like I’m not so odd after all.

        1. Thanks for recommending Ravelry.com! I’d never heard of it before. I checked out the “groups” section and am going to my first “stitch & bitch” tomorrow! So excited!

    10. I have lots of late 20’s friends (from law school and otherwise) who crochet, knit, and otherwise craft. My husband is always astounded at how many of us do “old lady crafts.” lol I have a great time inviting them over for an evening of crafts. I mostly crochet; it’s so rhythmic and relaxing on those days where I’m obssessing over something ridiculous.

    11. I think knitting and crochet have become fairly popular and almost “cool”. My (ridiculously small) college had a knitting club. Cross-stitch, not so much. Sewing is starting to come back in fashion, but I think that is partially due to the economy – making stuff yourself rather than spending lots of money is in. Honestly, I would probably keep it to myself, unless you do something awesome like a make a baby gift for your boss that blows everyone away.

      And now I need to go back to my cross-stitching.

    12. Try being a quilter. And telling your collegues you’re spending your vacation at a quilt show. Talk about “old lady” looks.

      But then I found a few other closet quilter’s at work. We’ve banded together now. Still get made fun of, but the you have five heads looks have receded somewhat.

    13. B—s to the wall prosecutor here. Hobbies? Needlepoint, reading, cooking, and gardening. How cozy, right? Well, they’re a blessed change from the work stuff, that’s what they are. If anyone underestimates you because of your hobbies, well,….take advantage of their underestimation! :)

  17. HELP! my boss just handed me a pie fundraiser for his daughter school and said “i ‘ know you like sweets” i don’t want anything how do i nicely say no?

    1. I usually use something to the effect of, “Oh it looks so good, but I just bought something similar from my niece/nephew/godchild/etc.”

    2. So coercive! There really should be an office ban on “hinting” to co-workers and subordinates to buy fundraiser junk. If people want to leave the forms in the break room, I’m happy to let people w/o kids the opportunity to buy Girl Scout cookies (or whatever), but asking a subordinate flat-out puts you in a bad spot and is really tacky.

      1. I am so glad that at my company this is against our ethics policy to ask people to buy this stuff!! Soooo nice not to be bombarded with buying all this stuff.

        1. When my company implemented a similar policy, people went ballistic because they were afraid they wouldn’t be able to buy Girl Scout cookies anymore. It was hilarious.

    3. Just buy it. For $20 you look good in his eyes and you dont have that “oh no, did i do something wrong by not buying it?!?!?” freak out guilt. Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet.

      1. I disagree. There will always be another fundraiser, always. It’s wrong for her boss to ask this; it’s an abuse of his position. It is a violation of the ethics policy of virtually any office, large or small.

        The rest of us who have children don’t harass our co-workers. I either ask family or possibly neighbors, but I usually just buy the whole load of tickets/pies/whatever myself.

        1. THis shows how little you are willing to compromise for the good of a professional relationship.

          If you buy then he’s forced to buy from you later.

          This attitude is very confrontational, selfish, and reveals that you are not a team player. If I was denied I would think “what a jerk.” Similarly, you bet I bought $20 of grapefruits from my secretaries kid as well.

    4. Definitely not the most professional of his behavior, but… I think blowing $10 or $20 could help strengthen your relationship, plus it does make a difference to the child (since the children get incentives and prizes for selling stuff most of the time… not cool to be left out!). And, you could always gift an item– have a sick aunt, or a new neighbor?? They’ll like you better too, even if it’s just for the thought.

      But if you’re dead set against it, I would definitely thank him anyway for thinking of you, but politely turn down the opportunity, in Anonymous’ fashion.

  18. I’ve been doing pretty well with going to the gym (and now that I have a wedding date that is less than a year away I am really trying to keep on schedule) but I feel like I am hitting a wall, I do a mix of cardio and weights but nothing seems to be changing and I am getting frustrated and therefore am losing motivation to go.

    Anyone have any advice? I’d love to have a trainer but I can’t really afford one…

    Has anyone tried finding a workout buddy? Has that helped at all?

    1. I bought a kettlebell workout DVD recently, kettlebell workouts really increase your metabolism, IMO. It’s a very efficient workout, lots of benefit in a short amount of time. You might see if your gym has any classes.

      1. Have you tried taking classes offered at the gym? Sometimes I feel like I hit a wall when I have the same workout routine. I also think your body adjusts to the routine and it gets easier so you burn fewer calories.

        Also, if it is possible, try to run outside! It is a nice break from the treadmill and you’re just in time for cool fall weather (depending on where you are in the world).

    2. Depends on what you want to change, but the sad truth (for me anyway) is that if I want to lose weight, exercise won’t do much alone. It’s key for keeping it off, but I just can’t create enough of a deficit through exercise to add up to a loss. I can eat 500 calories much more quickly than I can burn them off. And when I eat them, I’m ready for more, which is DEFINITELY not true with whatever I do to burn them off.

      1. Agreed. The NYT did an article about that exact subject within the last 6 months or so — how diet is more important to weight loss than exercise for women because exercise can actually make you hungry for more calories than you just burned. The key to actual weight loss (for me) is absolutely keeping track of calories so that I don’t end up eating more than I burned while working out.

        1. agreed. also, it matters what kind of calories you’re taking in. you can consume more calories if you’re getting more protein/healthy fats, than if you’re eating 1600 calories of refined sugars/simple carbs.

          also, could you try getting a personal trainer for a single session so he/she can give you some tips and then try integrating it into your workout? after doing this i realized i was far to heavy on cardio and light on resistance training and started doing more weights and saw a big difference. or, if your gym has group classes, that might work too. for workout videos, i love tony horton’s beach body collection (p90x was too intense for me).

          best of luck with the wedding planning and working out!

        2. So true. I have lost 8 pounds in the last five weeks from calorie counting alone. I started when I was given an IPhone as a gift and found a free app that gave me a calorie budget to lose weight at the rate of 1.5 pounds per week. I enter the foods I eat, and if I exercise I enter that in and it increases my budget for the day. It is not very scientific, but the pounds have come off slowly but surely. I’m limited to only 1350 calories per day now. I stabilized over the past week and think I have to buckle down now, which I plan to do by giving up alcohol for at least a couple of weeks and incorporating a little exercise (enough to burn a couple hundred calories per day a few times per week). On the whole it is easier than I thought it would be to eat a lower calorie diet. I still eat carbs and I’m pleased that my clothes are looser. I have to wear belts with my work pants now; I didn’t before. 8 down and 32 to go!

    3. I love to work out, but sometimes I’m not great at making myself do it in the mornings. I have now set up runs 4 days per week with other people at a ridiculous time in the morning, and it has worked for me. I’ve only cancelled once and that’s because I was sick. Knowing that someone will be held up because I’m not there or uncomfortable running in the dark without me has worked wonders.

    4. How about a tough yoga class? Its more $, but maybe treating yourself to a class once a week that’s not at the gym will add a little spice to your life.

      Or, for the other extreme, do you have any interest/time for a team sport? There are women’s only leagues in my city for several sports and the commitment is just once-a-week games. They’re open to people with a range of skills. I don’t even realize I’m getting a great workout, and then I have extra motivation to keep working out between games.

    5. I have my little sister come over to do the Jillian Michaels 30 Day Shred with me when I don’t want to go to the gym – it makes the workout much more fun, I’m not self conscious around her, and then we get some quality time in too.

      Also it sounds like you need to change it up – go for a walk in a new area for your cardio one day, or if you’re near a beach or river go walk in the soft sand (talk about a workout). I got bored with the gym and now I get most of my exercise on my bike – I can see new things and it’s incredible exercise. Agree with taking a class at your gym (cardio kickboxing is fun). Downloading a new album on my Ipod can help me get to the gym some days, too, so that I can listen to it, and once you’re there that’s most of the battle (for me at least). Don’t get discouraged, it will all be worth it in the end!

      1. A good Yoga class would help you to increase awareness of your body, identify muscles working, proprioreception etc and this will help you to make your cardio and weights training activity more efficient. Yoga asanas will also help to lengthen your muscles and counteract the bulking up that can occur with weights. Shiva Rea does some excellent Yoga DVDs, which are more physical than traditional Yoga.

        Sustained low to moderate impact exercise such as swimming would also be a good complement to the exercise you are already doing.

        Agree with the others that it is a good time to review your diet and cut some calories.

        I also keep a spreadsheet and weigh myself once a week. It helps me see all the weight I’ve lost over time, and keeps me motivated.

    6. I’m going to agree with those who said do a good yoga class. At my old gym they had classes that varied from slow to fast-paced power yoga. I have gotten a lot more flexible through yoga and stronger as well. Even in some of the slower paced classes, you will do long holds that will help build strength.

      Workout buddies are nice to have, but the main goal is to get you to go to the gym in the first place. I think once you’re there doing a class or having someone else paid to motivate you is the best option when you reach a plateau.

    7. Do you want to lose weight or just get fit and toned? If the latter, try yoga or pilates. Especially with yoga, you get a full body workout and if you keep it up regularly you will get super toned.

      1. Also make sure you are sleeping enough. Then you won’t need to eat extra calories for energy and can spend them on your new workouts. Maybe sign up for a running race or triathlon?

    8. If you are looking to change size/become leaner, it all comes down to diet, not exercise. Maybe you could try writing down what you eat and then eating a little less, and see if anything changes.

    10. Thanks all.

      I don’t run, because I have asthma and it’s hard for me to regulate my breathing, and plus it irritates my knee. I usually do the bike or the elliptical.

      I don’t really like classes that much, except for the occasional yoga or pilates class, mostly because I am a klutz and highly uncoordinated :) I would like to do more yoga/pilates but I think I need/want to focus on weight loss and general getting-in-shape first.

      I talked to my mom, and she said that if I want a couple training sessions to kick-start myself, she’ll give them to me as a Hanukkah gift, so at least that’s something.

      1. I am highly uncoordinated (as in broke my leg trying to “run” towards a soccer ball). You just need to mention this to a gym trainer and ask what they would suggest you do. I would think any coach would be more than happy to give you this free advice.

    11. I think you are plateau-ing (sorry I don’t know the exact word); What this means is that your body has reached a point where the combination of exercise is no longer a challenge and that it somehow got into a routine.
      what you need to do is to surprise your body with a new routine: different workouts, new intensity, solicit different muscles etc.
      For me, I realized cardio was simply not going to cut it (especially that I have ADHD and it is simply not possible for me to stay over 15 min on a machine).
      If you can attend classes at your gym it could be a change of routine, I am doing body combat classes and after just 5 sessions, it is doing wonders.
      You have to try few different classes until you find the right workout (and instructor).
      Best of luck

  19. I’ve been waiting for the Open Thread, I’m in need of some Corporette advice! I graduated law school and passed the bar this summer/fall. I just started a temp attorney job at one of the larger firms in my midsized city working with several other brand new attorneys. I’m very excited, but so far we’ve been pretty much on our own and it hasn’t been quite the networking opportunity I had imagined. This firm has multiple floors in a large building, and we seem to be kind of on the annex floor without a lot of people around. My group is working daily with a younger associate and is supervised by one of the partners. We’re only going to be there for a couple months, so I was hoping for some advice on how I can maximize my networking and opportunities while I’m there. I’m not so naive as to assume there might be an opportunity to go permanent with this firm, but I also would love that if it happened to materialize!! Any tips are greatly appreciated!! :)

    1. How about starting by having lunch with the partner and asking whether the firm has any department/practice group meetings you could sit in on to learn more about the various practice areas? Then get to know a couple more associates and partners at these meetings and ask them to lunch.

      1. Great ideas, thanks! I’m just a little out of my element because after the first week its very obvious we have “temp” status. I haven’t even seen an associate or partner other than the 2 I’m working with, and that is literally for a half an hour meeting or five minute check in. I’m just a little unsure how to adapt the normal networking dos and dont’s into this “temp not an associate” world without looking like I’m trying too hard!!

  20. Yaay open thread!

    Need some advice from the corpettes out there who either are members of an inn of court or have been to an inn of court function.

    Backstory: I’m a May graduate. A judge I worked for while I was in law school has offered to take me as his guest to an inn of court dinner next week. Apparently the inn has a number of members that practice the area of law that I’m interested in. As I’m still unemployed, he thought this might be a good chance to schmooze and network a little.

    Anyway, what do I wear? It’s Monday at 5:30. I know it’s nit-picking, but I’m debating between biz formal (matching suit) and biz casual (non-matching pieces).

    Thoughts? And any other opinions on how best to work this event to my advantage would be appreciated, too. :)

    1. At our local inn of court, everyone is in suits. Can’t hurt to be overdressed. I think business cards are a nice touch, but I know people have mixed feelings about law student business cards, so YMMV

      1. Just saw you are a recent grad, so cards probably won’t raise any eyebrows. You can get them cheap and quick at Overnight Prints or Vista Print

    4. I’m a member of our local Inn. I usually go straight from work and am in business attire (usually a suit, occasionally a skirt and cardigan). Attending an Inn meeting is a great networking opportunity, but doesn’t need to involve business cards, etc. We all wear name-tags at every meeting. Just stick one on and introduce yourself around. At the beginning of the official program everyone takes a few minutes to introduce guests, too. Hopefully your judge will do that and saw a little about you and your background, which will help with the networking.

    5. Definitely wear a suit. At my inn, no one passes around business cards, but it wouldn’t hurt to be prepared in case they do. You’ll have the opportunity to meet judges and lawyers. Brush up on your networking skills before you go. Make sure you have plenty of current events or sports teams to discuss. It’s likely that you’ll feel awkward if there is a cocktail hour before hand and you don’t know many people, so I wouldn’t show up too early.

      As far as networking with people in the area you want to practice is concerned, I have more advice on what not to do… It is very annoying if it is obvious that the only reason you are there is to network for the purpose of getting a job. Casually mention that you are interested in the area and then discuss other topics that make you memorable to that person. Later, you can follow up with an email saying it was nice to meet them and you would appreciate it if they would let you know if they hear of any openings in that area. Don’t hint that you want to work at that person’s firm or that you want an interview! You have to be more subtle and strategic about it.

    6. I actually just went to my first Inn meeting last month and wore a sleeveless black sheath dress and black pumps. I did not feel out of place because other women (who were obviously coming straight from work, not school like me) had a sheath dress on for the day and took their jackets off for the meeting, so they were sleeveless as well.

  21. On the eve of my six-plus week trial, my case just settled. I’ve billed over two thousand hours in this case already this year and was about to be part of long, high profile trial in a city far from my home.

    I’ve got pretty mixed feelings about it. It would have been an amazing experience to go to trial and kick some ass. I would have learned so much. But I know that the result we got through settlement is better than what we could do in trial, which is the whole point right? The client, not what would be best for my career. I’m also relieved to be going home, getting some rest, spending time with people I care about. But dang, it would have been really awesome to go to trial.

    And now I think I’ll take the rest of the year off.

    1. As a law student, I always wondered how to deal with this situation. It must feel so anti-climactic and frustrating on one level, but a relief on another. It seems crazy to work so long on one project.

      Hopefully, you’ll get a breath before starting the next one!

    2. it’s about what’s best for the client. you got what’s best for your client. well done! now DO take the rest of the year off.

    3. Totally been there and done that. It’s a really weird feeling. Acknowledge that and start planning an awesome vacation.

    4. I’m so sorry. I love settling cases early; hate settling on the eve of trial. You’ve already done the work, you’re ready to go, and presumably you have some good arguments, otherwise you wouldn’t still be there. I mourn my settled cases more than the ones I lose, actually, because of the lost possibility of winning. But usually if you look at it rationally, the settlement was the right thing to do. I also hate that people congratulate you on the settlement when you feel like crying.

      Plus, since this is Corporette . . . the clothes! I bought several new suits for a big trial recently, then settled the case. At least the suits are cute, but I still think of the trial that didn’t happen when I see them.

      1. I’m actually taking a couple unworn suits back. I was so busy I didn’t have time to even take the tags off, let alone get them hemmed.

        My SO didn’t really understand why I mourned settling my case on the eve of trial until I analogized it to building a really awesome airplane in the military. Thousands of person hours, blood, sweat, tears, time away from family, lots of innovations, and an incredible amount of teamwork to build this amazing airplane intended for use in war. We were so proud of our plane. And right before war broke out in earnest, we signed a treaty. It is much better for the world that war did not break out, aside from the chance we could have won outright, but now our plane is going into storage with the ark of the covenant in Indiana Jones. I’ll never get to see my plane in action, see all that hard work fly the skies.

        I’m grateful to the Corporettes for their understanding my mixed feelings :). As time is passing though, I am mostly just happy to be done with it. Still a little wistful about my plane though.

    5. Ugh! I know how that feels. It’s disappointing when you are thirsty for battle and don’t get to go in, but the result is good for your client and surely your work was appreicated! Take yourself to the beach for a couple of weeks . . .

    6. If you are lead counsel, or the counsel ultimately responsible for the verdict, it is a relief to settle. Trial is an exhausting experience. Juries are unpredictable and can make astonishingly wrong-headed decisions. No matter how well prepared you are, and how good you think your facts/law are, loss is possible. This is especially true when you are in a “foreign” jurisdiction, as you were.

      In my state, attorneys from the mainland wear the wrong clothes (too East Coast, too dark, wrong shirts, wrong ties), don’t know the correct terminology for directions, mispronounce local words, and, are just. . . wrong. . . for the jury and the location and the issue being tried. Really, it appears to me that mainland biglaw lawyers trying big corporate cases here have given up trying them personally. Too many inexplicable jury failures. They retain local highly qualified counsel for the courtroom. (Except the DOJ who continues to send “off” people here to conduct trials.) And, of course, the same is true when we travel to other states.

      So I said all that to say, especially when the big trial is in another state, the responsible partner is likely relieved when the case settles. And yet, you are never more alive than when in trial. (And for me, a great way to lose weight. Even after two decades as a litigator, I’m still so scared I just can’t eat.)

      Next time, S.F. Bay Associate.

      1. @SF Bay Associate, I thought about you randomly a few days ago: “Wonder if she told her trial team that she’s sick of pizza (literally)” How did that go, btw? ;-)

        1. Not that well, @lawgirl. We did stop ordering pizza based on my repeated statements as suggested by corporettes, so thank goodness for that. But the daily lunch continued to be catered instead of letting me go out on my own, and all the sandwiches, and the pasta salad, and the salad, all had cheese. I was able to peel the cheese off the sandwiches to a degree, but I wasn’t able to really “eat around” the salads because it was often shredded cheese, which clings to everything (logical if you want cheese in your salad). Frustrating.

          I made do by having a hearty, safe breakfast at the hotel of oatmeal and fruit, went to Whole Foods once to get lactose free yogurt, having dried fruit around as snacks, and pushing harder on dinner. One night I pushed us into Greek, which is great because their use of cheese is less, and it’s usually sheep milk feta (lower lactose than cows). I also pushed us into Chinese one night, which was awful and heavy though indeed lactose free.

          I was planning to really assert my gastronomic independence starting tomorrow, when trial would have started, but instead I’m going on vacation for a week :).

      2. I’m with you PjbHawaii, it’s generally a relief to settle. I did not feel that way when I was young and had little real responsibility for the overall case Now I am almost always happy for a settlement. Trials are ALOT of work, take over your life 24/7 for weeks , before and during the trial. Not to mention the uncertainty and possible loss, no matter how good you think the case is.

        Juries are unpredictable and, while I firmly believe are the best system we could have, they are sometimes way off base in their reasoning. After the last trial I had, a medical malpractice plaintiff case which we won (but not enough $), one juror came up to us as we were loading our cars at 9 pm after the verdict. He commented that one of the other jurors had not realized that the defense lawyer had admitted negligence — he seemed to be referring to opening statement — What the ***!!! Defendant definitely did not admit negligence and contested liability all the way through.

        Not complaining, but this definitely got my attention–how the h**l could a juror get something so wrong! Next time it may NOT be in my favor!

      3. Ha — DOJ lawyer here, and I guess it’s a good thing I’ve won my few Hawaii cases on motion. My husband is from Hawaii, and we visit frequently enough that I might have been able to pull it off. We’ll see for the next one!

      4. Thanks @pjb. And I have family from Hawaii whom I visit often (less so recently), so I can well imagine what happens when people from the mainland show up.

        I think part of my regret is from being a mere associate on the team. For our lead trial counsel, the settlement is a huge win that really showcases LTC’s amazing skills. For me, it is a loss of experience opportunities. I had nothing to do with the settlement negotiation, so there are many fewer feathers in my cap now than had I gone to trial. At some point I will lateral out of biglaw, and I was planning to use my experience in this trial – my witness outlines, my demonstratives, my assistance with the exhibit list, my help with the appeal – as examples of how I have added value. Now all that work product is gone and I can’t say I’ve been to trial yet. I feel like a less enticing candidate already. “I almost went to trial” just isn’t as impressive.

    7. SFBay Associate, I was in this exact same situation on the exact same day (Fri). I wonder if we’re on the same case? :) Trial could have been upto 10 wks?
      It would’ve been my first trial. I was a teeny bit disappointed, but relieved at the prospect of my thanksgiving/etc. that freed up, and looking forward to a couple of days this week when I could focus on non-super urgent things.
      BUT, I got put on 2 cases immediately today after coming back and am struggling to stay afloat (almost wish for the situation I was in last week!).

      1. My trial would’ve started tomorrow too, I was part of joint defense team, I wasn’t going to the trial itself though.

  22. Has anyone tried the Classiques Entier “mesh” tops? The PS at Nordstrom was pushing them on me and they look nice on, but it is weird to buy a synthetic mesh top that is “dressy” (mesh=soccer jersey to me)–and they seem pricey for what they are (90-100). Also are they warm enough? Do they look professional? They do have a nice stretch to them so they are fitted but not tight.

    1. Wore one to court this morning, though I wait till they go on sale. They are my favorite thing for under a suit. Nicer than a t-shirt, but still very comfortable.

    2. Just got one off the sale rack. I agree that they don’t seem worth the sticker price, but I love the pattern and the fit works well for me. I don’t think of it as particularly “dressy” but it’s pretty versatile.

    3. I have two of them. I really like them, but I wouldn’t pay full price. Luckily, they will almost always go on sale so just wait a few weeks. With that said, I don’t like the fact that they all look the same (mesh top and ruffle in the middle which is getting really old). I wish they would change it up a little. Interestingly, my husband thinks they look fabulous and flattering.

  23. I’m looking for some advice on juggling career choices and my relationship.

    I’m a 3L in my late twenties and I’m currently job searching. My school has a very good local rep, but is towards the middle/bottom of Tier 1. I’m in the top 10%. Unfortunately, the DOJ HP and federal clerkships, which were my top two choices, did not work out. Right now, I’m brainstorming my next moves.

    My boyfriend and I have been going out for seven years total (1 year was long-distance) and have been living together for three. He’s in his mid-thirties and has a low-level corporate job in the area (he switched careers a few years ago and had to start over at entry-level).

    So far, I’ve kept my search to the state my school is in and the adjoining two states. I’ve done this because I want to continue living with my boyfriend. He’s not willing to leave his job. I’m a little resentful about this because I feel my career is playing second fiddle to his.

    Should I open up my job search to more states? I want to practice in my current state, but with this economy… However, my school has a better local rep, so maybe I should continue looking here. It is still early.

    Another wrench in the works is that he won’t get married because he’s seen his parents’, older sisters’, and friends’ marriages implode. Most of his friends had a starter marriage and are just getting into marriage no. 2. I feel like I could do the long distance thing again if we were engaged/married, but otherwise, I’m a little tired of it.

    I think I don’t want to look in more places for jobs because it feels like I’m planning on ending the relationship if I do that.

    Basically, I’m just feeling very frustrated! Arg!

    1. hon, be honest with yourself. if you want to get married and he doesn’t, you don’t have to stay with him. i’m not dismissing your relationship or your feelings, but don’t change the course of your life (or refuse to change the course of your life) because you think he might change his mind.

    2. If I were you – I’d at least do a greater search to see what options are out there … and the leap to apply for/interviewing for/being offered/accepting new job/moving for new job is a long one…. End of the day you need to focus on what’s best for you – and your work life is part of that – and you could limit yourself out of a dream position. Also, seeing you look elsewhere may force your SO to do a little deeper analysis of what he’s willing to do/deal with. It sounds like his gut reaction may have been to say, “nope, not moving. staying here.” which is fine as a gut reaction esp. if he already views himself as having started over recently and doesn’t want to do it a 3rd time. However, seeing you in the process of looking elsewhere may give him more food for thought.

      For myself, (married this year, engaged for about 1.5 yrs, lived together for 3 yrs) where and how we looked for jobs never changed. He’s in entertainment so we’re Los Angeles-centric. I’m in a more flexible field (research/academia) so I flex… but if he were able to move for a great job for me – he would – and has always felt that way. So if it’s a case of just digging his heels in – that seems like something that’s never going to change and might be indicative of other issues – and that’s something you need to decide if you can/want to deal with long term.

    3. I’m going to be brutally honest with you.

      I’m several years older than you. I have seen this happen time and again. The guy who wants to live with someone but doesn’t want to get married because “marriage is unrealistic,” “I’ve seen too many marriages not work out,” “marriage is antiquated,” etc. I’ve had at least four friends in this situation at various times. In every.single.case. after my friend broke up with the guy, he ended up getting married to someone else. Usually within 2 years.

      And in my situation – I was that girl, the one who married the guy who never wanted to get married. My husband lived with a woman for four years, continually telling her he didn’t want to ever get married. They broke up, I met him. Just over two years later, we got married. We’ve been married over 10 years. I was “the one” for my husband. Not her. And he felt bad, later, that he kept putting her off instead of just accepting she wasn’t the one and ending the relationship, so she could have moved on.

      Your boyfriend doesn’t truly never want to get married. He just doesn’t want to marry you. It’s probably not anything you can control or do anything about. You just aren’t “the one” for him. And very frankly, you’re getting to an age where it’s going to cause a lot of problems for you if you spend a much more time waiting for some guy to decide he wants what you want. And your boyfriend is definitely old enough, in his mid-thirties, to understand that relationships either grow or they die. This one doesn’t sound like it’s growing to me.

      There’s no way, no how I would put my career on the back burner for a guy who has been with me for seven years and made it clear he is never going to marry me, if I cared about my career and wanted to eventually get married. Again, brutal honesty: seven years is more than enough time to decide someone is the right person to get married to. Your boyfriend has had ample time to make his mind up. He won’t leave you, but he won’t commit either. He’s completely comfortable, and the relationship is proceeding on his terms – he doesn’t have to marry you, he doesn’t have to move if you get your dream job. He’s convinced you he doesn’t have to do a single thing you want, anything that matters to you. And you have convinced him you accept his terms, because you won’t leave.

      I don’t know. Maybe this is one of those unique relationships where everything will work out and he’ll come to his senses and decide he does want to marry you, and he’ll chase you to the airport and propose to you with a giant diamond ring at the gate right as you’re about to get on the plane to go to your new job. I’ve seen that happen in the movies a lot. Never seen it happen in real life. Generally the woman moves on and the guy gets married within two years and eventually, the woman finds a better guy, who isn’t a selfish jerk, and ends up happier.

      You deserve better than you’re getting. Stop thinking about him. What’s important to you? What do you want? What really matters to you? Where do you want to be in 5, 10, 20 years? Then think about him again. Is he going to be the guy who helps you get there? Something tells me probably not.

      I apologize if any of this upsets you. I have just seen way too many great women waste way too many years of their lives (the best years, mind you – the young-wife, young-professional, childbearing years) on the wrong guys. There’s a whole world out there, one that can give you what you want. But you have to be the one to go for it.

      I wish you, from the bottom of my heart, the best of luck.

      2. Awesome advice. Just like the boyfriend has seen many marriages fail, I have seen women waste the best years of their life on men who were not worth it.

        If I were you, I would just go along with your job search as if you were single. If he is not willing to move or compromise is some way, then is he even the type of man you want to marry? What happens if you do get a job near your school and years later they transfer you? You know your b/f would probably break it off because it is no longer convenient. If he is not willing to “go the extra mile” for you, then why go to such extremes for him?

        I know it is easier said than done. You will make the right decision eventually. I just hope it doesn’t cost you a great opportunity after you put in all this work to get through law school. Good Luck!!!

      3. Second all of this advice! If the guy hasn’t decided to marry you after 7 years, and he’s not willing to prioritize your career along with his, he’s not the right guy. I’m very sorry to say this, as it’s a hard realization to come to.

        I’ve been in your place more than once in my life – the guy didn’t want to get married for various reasons… eventually we broke up… he married the next girl he dated within a year!

        I’d say, expand your job search, and if something awesome comes up that’s farther away, have a serious talk with your guy. Maybe he’ll come with. Maybe he’ll propose. Or maybe you’ll start a brand new life in a brand new city. Those are all good outcomes.

        Good luck!!!

      4. I totally agree with The Messenger. Plus, I think the reason you are a little resentful that he is not willing to leave his job is because your career IS playing second fiddle to his.

      5. Just another perspective — I don’t really want to get married. I want to be in a long term, full-life, committed relationship. I just don’t like “weddings” and I see no need for the legal status of marriage. And I’m not religious. Not saying this is your boyfriend’s perspective. But some of us believe the promise means more than the piece of paper.

        1. I’m on the same page, and find that it gets so tedious hearing people go on and on about how once I meet the right guy, I will change my mind. I think there are just some people who don’t need/want the marriage but are happy to have a long-term committed relationship. There’s not going to be any aha moment that is going to change their minds.

          I think many people still have it in their minds that everyone wants to get married, when I think that’s becoming less and less the case as circumstances change.

          1. I hear what you’re saying. I don’t think I want the paper or title. I want someone who’s willing to be in it together. A partner to build a life with. And his unwillingness to consider moving is not showing me this.

        2. I totally understand this perspective, but my question would be this. If you found that long term, full life, committed relationship, but a marriage was really important to the other person, would you get married?

          And to the original poster, I think your problem is that this is not a marriage relationship, in the fact that its not a true partnership. I’m not married, but my partner moved from the state he’s been his whole life to be with me for my last two years of law school. I think that’s what you want, someone who would be willing to do that. And if he was willing to do that, I think you’d be less resentful if you found a job that did happen to be where he was. Best of luck to you, its a very hard situation. Just remember you’ve grown a lot in 7 years (especially those 7 years where you went from early 20s or even teens to late 20s) and you may have outgrown him, and it may be for the best in the long term.

          1. I can’t speak for the OP, but I really do not want to get married. It’s not a matter of finding the right guy because marriage is the wrong choice for me. I make that pretty clear up front. I get anxious/stressed just thinking about the possibility of being married but not at the idea of being in a committed/partnership-type relationship.

            I do think that there are issues when the boyfriend is flat out unwilling to consider moving. Surely there are other locations where there are job possibilities. He may actually be more willing to leave his job than you think. My college roommate’s husband passed up OCI season because he swore she had no interest in moving. When I saw them shortly after and asked about it, it turned out she was furious he’d assumed that she didn’t want to move. In fact, she said she would have been more than happy to move because she felt like she’d hit a dead end in her current position.

        3. I never wanted to get married either, but I’ve been happily married for 8 years now. It wasn’t that I changed my mind, the government changed it for me! I fell in love with a man from another country, and there is no immigration status for living with another person in a long term committed relationship LOL. We had simple ceremony with less than 10 guests at town hall and went out to dinner afterwards. It feels no different than living together. So you never know what life is going to bring your way. I would have been happy living together, but I am just as happy married.

        4. It doesn’t matter if you want to get married or not, but what matters is that you and your SO want the same thing. I like the idea of being engaged but I’m afraid of walking down the aisle with everyone staring at me and spending so much money on a dress I will wear once! It just seems so silly, but at the same time I don’t want to look back and have regrets. Oh well, I have time to figure it all out. Right now I’m just happy to be on good terms with my b/f.

      6. Original poster here.

        The Messenger, that was an extremely thoughtful post. Thank you so much for being brutally honest about what you see. I have a lot to think about this weekend.

        Thanks everyone else as well! I think I’m going to split a bottle of wine with him and have a straight from the heart talk. He needs to get on board with my career, or else, because this ship is leaving.

        1. You deserve to have a partner who wants the same things that you want. You shouldn’t compromise on important life events like marriage. If he isn’t on the same page as you, it is time to move on.

          If marriage is important to you and he doesn’t want to be married, that’s all you need to know. If you marry the right person, it is great. If you have to convince someone to marry you or he only does it because it is important to you, you will end up miserable and eventually divorced.

          It will suck now, but you will be so much better off in the long-run if you follow your heart and stick to what is important to you.

          1. This is spot-on.

            I have had the same unfortunate experience as the OP and did end up miserable and eventually divorced. RUN!

        2. Agree 100% with the messenger.

          I was in a very similar situation to you in my 20’s. I left him at 28, moved to the state I wanted to live in, met the man of my dreams 8 months after moving. We are engaged now. I live where I want, doing what I want, and I left him back in the state he refused to move from.

          You only get one shot at life. See the silver lining in this and move on from him. It’s one thing to not feel the need to have a legal marriage, but it’s quite another to not have a supportive partner.

          You’ll get through this and be so much happier.

        3. I agree (with basically everyone else here) that you should open up your job search. In the end, you need to live with yourself, and if you’re not happy with your career/lifestyle/etc, then you won’t be able to be happy with him, and he needs to realize that.

          On a personal end, I was in much the same situation- I’ve been in a relationship for 5 years with “that guy who doesn’t want to get married.” Luckily, someone knocked some sense into him and we’re planning the next step. I consider myself really lucky to have found someone who really reflects on these things. Case-in-point: I’m currently living in Beijing while he finished law school in the US. Talk about long distance! But, he knows that pursuing the things I wanted in Beijing was what’s best for me right now, and wants me to be happy. Luckily, we’re pretty in-tune when it comes to location choices in the US.

          I was, however, ready to up-and-leave on the marriage issue. If it’s something that’s important to you, then you shouldn’t have to compromise that. But, after a good conversation with a friend who “never wanted to get married” and lost the woman who could have been the love of his life, he came to his senses. In the end, if the guy “doesn’t want to get married,” then either you’re not the one for him, or he’s a moron (or, likely, both). Either way, it seems that there needs to be some dialogue about your wants and needs and what he’s willing to do for them. Good luck!!!

      7. AMEN, sister. I wish I could forward your message to a few of my girlfriends who need to hear the brutal truth.

      11. Wow, this feels exactly like the movie “He’s Just not That Into You”.

        I have never been in this situation but sounds like good advice.

    4. Look in other states. Think about yourself and what you want and need to do in your life and your career. And, if something promising comes up, you can sit down and discuss it with your boyfriend. But you will never know what’s out there until you seek it out, and if you don’t, you regret not trying. And, perhaps a possibility of you working in another state will be the “come to Jesus” moment that your bfriend needs to decide what he wants out of the relationship.

    5. Are you positive your federal clerkships didn’t work out? I know for a fact that Northern District of Georgia judges are still hiring. Some are just too busy to obsessively follow OSCAR. Not to mention, we have a few vacancies (*ahem*) and hopefully will have new judges appointed eventually. I know several 10Ls who got their clerkships very late by applying to newly appointed judges.

      Also, my hubby has followed me to new jobs twice now. But he was pretty mature for a twenty-something. And if push came to shove, I’d follow him if I had to, even though I’ve developed a good network here. It’s part of the partnership.

      1. There are a handful of judges I applied to who haven’t filled their spots, but it’s been a very competitive season. I hear a lot of judges are picking people with experience instead of straight out of school. I know at least one judge is waiting to see if his current clerk will get a job; if not, the clerk will stay on another year.

        There is still a small chance, but I’m making plans in case I don’t get a call out of the blue in a few months.

        Thanks for the tip about recent appointees. It’s a shame how many vacancies are on the federal bench. I’ll keep watch.

    6. Let me get this straight… you are restricting your job search and future career opportunities over a guy with an entry-level job with whom you have no prospect of marriage? I would expand the job search, and forget the dude.

    7. Honestly – do YOU! If he’s the right guy, you’ll make it work, but being completely honest – he’s treading water with you until the right girl comes along….

  24. Query: has anyone ever used a personal shopper? I’m thinking of trying it at Saks. I’m thinking that don’t have time to shop in stores, I’m sick of buying online and returning, I’m in a bit of a fashion rut, and it may be time in my career to start investing in nicer pieces. Any thoughts or warnings appreciated!

    1. I’d try Nordy’s before Saks. But that’s just my taste. Saks’ prices make me gag and I don’t think their stuff is higher quality, just more “designer-y
      “

      1. I would . . . if there was a Nordstrom’s in NYC. Sigh. And I don’t have the time to go to one in NJ or LI — see comment about “no time”. :)

    2. It really depends on the personal shopper. I tried one at Lord & Taylor who was not good and dressed me in a lot of clothing that was really aging. I ended up returning everything except a sweater. On the other hand, my sister tried a shopper at Nordstrom that she loved. Try to ask around to your friends or colleagues and see if anyone can recommend a specific shopper at the Saks that you’re planning to go to. Good luck.

    3. Few months ago I traveled to the US. Many corporettes suggested I contact a PS at a big store. I did at Macy’s (got one for shoes and one for clothes). they were very nice, made me feel special and I found several pieces which I love and that were at a reasonable price.
      The service was free, so if you can do it definitely go for it.

    4. I have just started the process — haven’t had the first “shopping trip” yet. But so far I’m very happy with the independent personal shopper/stylist I’m working with. I know one of the services she offers is bringing possible pieces to you where you then try everything on and say yes or no at your own home.

      If you know you like Saks’ offerings and pricing, I’d go with a free personal shopper there. If you suspect Nordstrom and some other stores might have more variety or more of what you like within your price range, I’d recommend going with an independent personal shopper who can spend the time you don’t have going to the NJ/LI Nordstroms and bringing pieces to you.

      (Just FYI — I’m in San Francisco and the person I’m working with charges $200/hour.)

  25. I am in an accounting masters program, and am going through first round interviews next week. The good news is that I have lots of opporunities, which I am quite pleased about. Interviews with two of my top three firms are on Monday.

    I have trouble coming up with questions for my interviewer. If my interviewer is a CPA and not a recruiter, then my questions include “What clients are you currently working on?”, “How soon will I be able to interact with clients?”, “What do you like least about the company?”, “Where do you see the company in three years?”.

    These are all fairly common questions, and I really hoped that there would be some awesome suggestions for interviewing that would help me stand out from the crowd.

    I am not interested in working for the Big 4, and so my interviews are set up with local and regional accounting firms. I want to work with family owned businesses and partnerships. Thank you in advance for your insights!

    1. People love to talk about themselves.

      1) Why did you chose to work here?
      2) What do you think the core values of this company are?
      3) What surprised you about the company when you started?
      4) How has the company helped you grow in your job?
      5) How has the company grown and dealt with change since you’ve been here (nice way to segue into economic issues related to the company)

    2. What is your typical day here entail?
      How is the mentoring at the firm?
      What professional training/advancement opportunies are there at the firm?
      Does snooki want to smoosh smoosh?

      j/k on the last one. :)

    3. I agree with E on asking questions that allow people to talk about themselves. These are my usual questions:
      1. What’s your favorite thing about your job?
      2. What is the work environment like at your company? Do coworkers socialize often?
      3. What was your first year working at Company like?
      4. How does your company support employees’ professional development?
      5. Where do you see the company in 5 years?

      1. Thank you E and Anonymouses! I appreciated the snooki question, I needed a laugh :)

        It’s always stressful going into interviews, so thanks again for your suggestions on good questions, these are great. I will probably end up asking all of them over the course of the week.

        1. What advice do you have for me?
          Is there anything you would have done differently?
          What is the training program like?

  26. I am a senior associate at a big corporate firm and I am expecting a baby. I have a couple of questions for mom and moms to be:

    1. Where on earth can I find cute and professional maternity clothes? I am thinking both office casual styles and ones that are suitable for the courtroom. I am not afraid to show my shape and I want to look good, but most of the styles I see out there are super frumpy. And I have not seen “maternity” suits. Do you just wear suit pants and a bella band?

    2. For those who took a maternity leave, how did you feel going on leave and then coming back? I am anxious/worried about losing my cases and clients. I know it’s part of the deal–I won’t be working for several months, after all–but it really scares me to be so disconnected from something that is such a big part of my life.

    1. I’m not one to advise on clothing (it’s been too long) but I will add my thoughts on maternity leave.

      I really didn’t like being on leave in many ways. I knew way before I had kids that I didn’t have the patience to be a SAHM and I was right. I did enjoy the bonding time with the kids and extended family (we were the first on both sides to have kids). My leaves were pre-blackberry, instant everything so I didn’t stay up on my cases and I don’t know if it would have made me crazy to answer emails, handle crises etc. But I would advise that in the firsst 3-4 weeks that you don’t make yourself available and solely concentrate on the kid and SO/spouse.

      My SO’s boss was back working on the magazine in four days. With my first, I took 12 weeks and with my second only seven. With my first, there was a yearly conference (a plane flight away) that my boss wanted me to attend (and I didn’t want to miss) and my baby was only eight weeks. It was a Saturday- Tuesday thing and my boss was grateful that I wanted to go and was impressed that I didn’t worry about the baby or spend every free moment on the phone. Baby and Dad did just fine, and I pumped during breaks and dumped the milk. Dad didn’t want to come with, but that is a good option, IMO.

      In the last few weeks, I started popping in for staff meetings or the occasional management meeting. I liked having a bit of time away from baby and it made the nervousness about returning easier. I continued to pump until both were nine months old (and nursed only at nights after that) so I got used to that before I returned.

      Best of luck. I’m sure you’ll be fine!

    2. First, clothes:
      If money is not a major object, I would suggest Isabella Oliver and A Pea In the Pod. The former has its own house brand and it’s lovely, the latter also sells designer stuff like Diane Von Furstenburg and so on. Motherhood has business stuff, and I bought some, but it’s definitely cheaper quality. Avoid Old Navy if you can; I only bought the most casual of casual stuff there because I found that even if something looked cute online, I’d head into a brick-and-mortar store and said piece would look really cheap.

      Coming back from leave:
      I’ve done it twice, and I’m a consultant in Canada where you can take a full year. I remember the first time around how little had changed (my office, the people riding the bus with me) and how quickly I got back into the swing. The second time, the economic climate (as well as the particular climate of my business) had really changed and the team was pretty skeletal when I came back. That’s been hard to deal with, and I think it’s finally time for me to move on. But that part doesn’t necessarily apply to your situation. Also, I’m more of an underling, but I had a boss several years ago who got pregnant and had a pretty seamless transition back when her leave was over. I guess given Canada’s approach to maternity leave, it’s pretty accepted in the corporate culture that women do it, and then they come back.

      I remember how quickly I shifted into motherhood mode and how faraway work seemed after the babies were born. And that’s totally okay. But it’s also a big adjustment for new mothers, so be prepared to feel weird a lot.

      I hope that makes some sense.

    3. Coming from the perspective of a childless person who has had four close colleagues go on maternity leave in the past two years:

      1. I don’t really expect pregnant woman to have business formal attire. None of my colleagues invested in it. I think it’s fine to wear a stretchy dress 9 days out of 10. If you really need a jacket, it’s fine to wear a normal one that just lets your belly stick out. No one – not judges, partners, or anyone else I’ve worked with, old men included – has expected a visibly pregnant woman to adhere to a strict business dress code. I think my colleagues got a lot of dresses at Target.

      2. I’ve been happy to pick up cases from my colleagues, manage them while they’re gone, and then give them back. It will be greatly appreciated if you are reachable at least a few times a week (after your first couple weeks of leave) for questions or updates. Maybe you can schedule a weekly conference call with the colleagues taking over your cases. Before you leave, either schedule a long meeting or write a detailed memo on each case so that your colleagues know exactly what’s going on. When you get back, plan to spend the first couple days doing the same with them. Also, if you work directly with clients, introduce them to the colleague who’ll be taking over the case so that there are no surprises.

      Each of my colleagues has handled things differently – one completely disappeared for 6 months, one checked her email daily, and the others were in between – and I think the above approach is best. You don’t need to micromanage your colleagues or be constantly available, but you should be reachable after your initial recovery and adjustment period and willing to help if you’re absolutely needed.

    4. I’ve found a few things at Gap maternity – a pencil skirt that I wear at least 2x a week, a couple of their trousers (same as the regular line), and some tops. I looked at Pea in the Pod and even their trousers are poly-blend, so I stuck w/the gap. For a few months they’ll do. For tops, I’ve found that there are certain styles which will definitely make you look bigger than you really are and I have stayed away from those (have some as hand me downs/gifts and may need to resort to them in the 3rd tri). Those are styles that are empire waist, with bunches of fabric gathered below the bust, or styles w/pleats at the top that then just tent out towards the bottom of the top. Same w/dresses; I think they make you look 1-2 mo. bigger too. The more flattering styles I’ve found are the tops w/side ruching, so they’re still somewhat fitted but not inappropriately so, and drapey tops (usually come in cowlneck) with a band or fitted area around the hips so you don’t look like a big undefinable blob. Hope that helps.

      1. You will be greatful to have those huge shirts as you near your due date. While some of the side ruching ones lasted my entire pregnancy, I did have some button down (maternity) that started to show the bottom of my belly by the end (gross).

        Also, I agree with whoever said that the rules relax for pregnant women. I’m in a fairly formal medical field, but by the end I was rotating a pair of camel trousers and a pair of black trousers with a variety of maternity tops a couple of times a week, and no. one. said. a. word. I think they were afraid of my at that point, or being blamed for me going into early labor. ;)

    5. Hi Pregnant! Congratulations!

      I was 4-6 mos. pregnant while a summer associate at a big firm this year. (Now that I’m back in 3L year it’s just jeans and leggings!) During those months (not too huge yet) I would go with a belly band and your regular suits and trousers. I bought a lot of tops (1 size up) from H&M. Finally, I rotated through a couple of dresses — my favorites by far were a splurge from shabby apple: http://www.shabbyapple.com/c-35-mama-apple.aspx, which has made corporette before! I get non-stop compliments when I wear the Odyssey dress.

      I can’t speak to court appearances, but I interviewed for a clerkship in a black Old Navy maternity dress paired with my regular black suit coat (unbuttoned). And maternity hose.

      If you’re in a splurging mood, I always eyed Ann Taylor Loft’s Maternity line. Otherwise, I would just go with Old Navy. Also, craigslist.

      The only maternity suit I’ve run across (a Pea in the Pod suit at a Motherhood outlet) was horrendous and I left it on the rack.

      Good luck!

      1. Not the OP, but I’m really glad to hear this perspective – my hubby and I are hoping to conceive soon, and thinking about how I’m going to get through my 2L summer job while pregnant had been stressing me out. I’m glad to hear others have done it and survived!

        1. Hi Anon,

          For me it worked out very well, but the timing was good: I was really nauseous in my 1st trimester, and that cleared up about 2 weeks before I started at the firm. And I haven’t had any complications or anything. But I actually found it a great way to connect with other attorneys at the firm who also had kids, and it sort of set me apart (I was not a young partying 2L, I was more mature, starting a family, and looked more like a potential future colleague).

          And you’ll want to let certain people {recruiting manager, your work coordinator/mentor} know if you’re pregnant up front. Not only will that be useful in case you do feel ill or something and need extra accommodations of some kind, but you really won’t be able to keep it a secret anyway — someone will notice/ask you why you’re not drinking at firm events, or running the 5K, or going to the trapeze lessons (seriously, my firm had trapeze lessons). It’s easier to just say, oh, I’m pregnant, than to make something up. Just keep a good sense of humor about the whole thing & do your very best at work, and don’t feel bad about not staying late or not going out if you feel sick or tired. I think the most important thing is that you have a really supportive husband or friend/family network wherever your summer job is — I was constantly exhausted after work and had the weepies a lot (I made my husband read this to understand them, def. read the comments too!), so even though I wasn’t actually sick/vomiting, I needed lots of care & support.

    6. 1. Dresses – Gap has nice ones. Also I got a couple of pea in the pod dresses on sale. Suits at Pea in the Pod – I got 2, about $200 each, and wore them to death. This is the ONLY place that you will find maternity suits. Sweaters also at Gap. Before switching over to all maternity wear, I also got big suits (I am usually an 8 and got them in a 12) and wore those through about month 4.5, with bella band if needed, until they really didn’t fit at all any more.

      2. I was really excited to go out the second time. The first time I had the same apprehension as you did, but honestly it was fine. You will care less bc of the baby (at least that is how I felt) but there is plenty of time while you are feeding baby to hop on your work email and stay in touch.

      Hope you have a healthy pregnancy!

      1. Thanks for the responses ladies!

        Right now, the thought of going on leave and checking out completely is foreign to me–I am one of those people who is on email multiple times a day while on vacation. But as many of you say, things may change once baby comes. I’ll try not to think about it too much.

        And thanks for the clothing tips. I love the shabby apple dresses–adorable! I have a trial in month 8 of pregnancy, so I probably will need to splurge on some suits for that, and it sounds like Pea in the Pod is the way to go.

        1. I was always inclined to get by with as few maternity clothes as possible but… at the end you get desperate for something fresh to wear/more variety (which is exactly when you don’t want to spend any more money on maternity) — so I would buy several things, a couple more than you think you need, around the 5-6 month mark so that you aren’t buying new ones at the end just to wear for a couple of weeks. Does that make sense? I don’t think I explained it well.

    7. I’m 30 weeks pregnant and a young associate, so the clothes issue has been a big part of my life over the last few months. I was lucky enough to have friends lend me some pieces, but I have also bought quite a bit since I expect to have more than 1 baby. My favorite pieces are from japanese weekend – you can either buy online direct from them, or at maternity boutiques and nordstrom. I got lots of really great stuff on nordstrom.com on sale, both japanese weekend and other brands. My two favorite dresses are from Pea in the Pod – both were still really expensive, even on sale, but worth it to have a few pieces you feel really good in. I also feel these are some of my dressiest clothes so I have worn them when speaking or meeting with a client. If I could afford it, I would have way more clothes from here. I have a lot of everyday work pieces from Motherhood and Target. Definitely not as good quality, but ok for some basic pieces at much lower prices. Old Navy clothes were just super cheap and I returned everything I bought online. I didn’t have a lot of success at Gap Maternity – things didn’t fit as well and seemed cheaply made for the price compared to other places. I actually got a few really good pieces from jcpenney.com, and I NEVER shop there regularly. But the prices were amazing and the stuff was just as good as motherhood or gap. I’ve really tried to hit lots of sale, ruelala, gilt, etc. places for higher quality brands at low prices, as well as maternity boutique sale sections. This only worked because I started looking before I even needed much. A friend gave me a maternity suit from pea in the pod. My boobs have gone up several cup sizes, so this has been a godsend since most of my regular jackets don’t fit at all right now.

      I had an all week hearing and was worried going into the week. I wore the maternity suit 2 days and mixed in my really nice pea in the pod dresses. The last day was 1 regular suit jacket that still looks ok over a maternity dress.

    8. I’m on my second pregnancy at a BigLaw firm where people wear suits every day. On clothes: I have found suits at Pea in the Pod (expensive, but having one suit from there that you can wear to court will be worth it) and JC Penney’s (online they have a lot of stuff, and I have suits from there with both pants and a skirt). Most of my other stuff is from Target or Kohl’s, casual stuff from Old Navy, and a nice pair of jeans from the Gap. Don’t hesitate to ask around for hand-me-downs, particularly at a law firm you’ll find people with nice stuff. I wear a lot of dresses with a black blazer (unbuttoned, as I’m too big even to button my maternity ones now), or a cardigan and no one says a word. If you have to wear hose, buy the Pea in the Pod or the Assets Mama Maternity (from Target, same company that makes Spanx). People will completely understand when you wear the same of pants 3 times a week.
      On work: I was a really busy 5th year associate with my first son (and I’m a really busy 8th year now); with him, I took 8 weeks off (not enough, but I wanted to argue an appeal so had to come back early) and then was part time for a month until I had solid day care set. I found that both partners and clients totally understood that I would not work during leave, and trust me, for the first 6 weeks, you really can’t so don’t even try. Things work out, and so long as you prepare in advance to hand things off, you’ll be surprised how easily you slip back in after leave. I had a few trials that were reset to accommodate my leave, and the judges and opposing counsel were completely understanding. This happens all the time. Now, as a senior associate, I just try to remind people on my cases that I will be out during certain months and think ahead about who can handle day to day stuff as it arises when I’m out. Again, this happens all the time, people will understand, even clients, and they won’t hold it against you to take a maternity leave.

      1. Just as a counterpoint to the above – with my first, I was out for 6 months. With my second, for 3 months (different firm so not as much leave). Being out for 6 was *much* better (esp since the first was a super fussy baby). I wouldn’t have been able to go back after 8 weeks, and would recommend taking as much time as you are able.

        1. I agree with this. I would have been sad beyond belief to have had to leave my baby even one moment earlier than I absolutely had to. I also think it is not great for a baby to be left so early (‘though I understand that people do what they have to do).

          1. Yes, I absolutely agree to take as much time as you can/want to. I’m taking at least 3 months with my next one, and with my first, it was a little easier on me than on most people because my husband was off for a month after I went back, so we had someone at home full time when he was still very small. My firm has a great policy where you get 3 months paid and 3 more unpaid, and in the last year only one woman has only taken 3, whereas 5 have taken 6. In either case, no one complained that they were not around or thought they were slacking or something. I would suggest starting to think about child care options now though, as it’s hard to find a good day care or nanny.

    9. I had several kids recently as an associate/young partner at a large firm, and my universal experience was to wonder how so little actually happened while I was gone. When you are working, you just seem busy all the time, but take a few months off, and you’ll come face to face with just how slowly the wheels of justice turn. I don’t think any of my leaves set me back at all. Good luck!

    10. Re: clothes, you might be better off looking for clothes that drape well/fall in multiple folds etc in the ‘normal’ sections rather than maternity type clothes. You can see loads of these online at Nordstroms etc. They’re far cheaper than the maternity ones for sure.

      For trousers I’d recommend the ones that have buttons on the side that you can let out as your tummy grows.

      Suits – sorry I can’t help!

      Do make sure you have 1 pair of low heeled/flat shoes that look nice. I bought a pair of flat peep toes that looked good with casual clothes+work clothes.

  27. I have to ask – how arrogant do you have to be to continue to refer to yourself as “we” when we all know darn well that it’s one woman typing away at her laptop??

    Newsflash – using “we” doesn’t make this recommendation of over-priced boots any more authoritative.

    2. Seriously,

      It used to be very bad form to use the pronoun “I” in the context Kat was using it. “We” was used instead; more formal, not so vain, etc. When I was in school it was called the “royal” we. Times are evolving, and it is used less now. It is not meant to imply more than one person is writing.

      And that you don’t know that. . . Seriously??

      1. i thought the blogatorial “we” was properly reserved for blogs with more than one blogger. i don’t think Kat’s “we” is arrogant but since we all know the blog is just her, she ought to use first person singular imo.

    3. Wow, sour grapes here.

      And, in addition to the previous comment about the “royal we,” I also highly doubt that all the material was thought up by Kat (as much as I give her credit for maintaining a great site). “We” could also likely refer to Kat and anyone who gave her an idea for an article, or even an inclusive “we,” meaning Kat and all her loyal readers.

    5. How arrogant do you have to be to link to your own ebates page for your own personal profit while posting a catty rant on someone else’s blog? Newsflash – you’re a jerk.

      1. I was wondering what she was linking too but didn’t want to click through for fear of the worst :) Thanks for confirming, Eponine!

      2. I’d be bitter too if I my profession was trolling and trying to sell some lowbrow ebates program.

  28. Lately, I’ve seen news articles about a disturbing trend in HR– companies that will not consider the unemployed for openings. I’ve even seen similar comments on job posting when helping a family member with her job search.

    So, my question to other readers is, how can one effectively get around the “unemployed” bias?

    Currently, I work at a major media outlet in Beijing, though I’m still early in my career. While I really enjoy my work and couldn’t be happier with my situation, I plan to return to the US after my employment contract ends next summer- I simply think it’s time to come home. In the US, I do not intend to pursue journalism (this job was more a means for me to learn more about China and pick up the language). I’m worried that my job search in the US will be hampered by 1. my drastic location change, and 2. my “unemployed” status. Any advice?

    1. What career are you going to pursue when you get back, if not journalism?

      Does working abroad offer benefit to those positions? Can you perhaps look for a position with large international or Asia based companies who would value your time in China?

      The other alternative is to start job seeking before you are technically unemployed. Start applying and sending out resumes several months in advance or if you can leave your contract early, you might even want to start doing it now. What about applying to large international companies located in China with the caveat you want to be working in the states? it might be a long shot, but you never know what’s out there.

      The business world is getting smaller and smaller. I think if anything spending time working in China will be seen as a plus.

    2. I second the suggestion to start looking while you’re still employed. I also would make clear on your resume that you left your job because you were on a contract that ended, and not because you were laid off or fired.

      1. To answer Chicago K’s questions– my contract stipulates that I would have to compensate the company should I leave early (actually a common item in contracts for foreigners in China), so I don’t intend to cut my visit short.

        That being said, I actually studied Economics and International Relations, and I’d love go to back to doing something related to econ. But, I’m still very early in my career, so I’m open to considering other options. I also recently saw a job posting for an “International Media Relations Assistant,” which is something I could picture myself pursuing. Any position with an international company would definitely be of interest to me, but I’m not stuck on the idea. In truth, I came to China out of a personal interest in learning more about the country, culture, and language, so any professional benefits are bonus.

        I had figured that it would be best to start applying before I leave, but how early is too early? Since I won’t be available for an in-person interview (which I think is very important– it’s how I knew that my current workplace was a great fit) until I get back, what would be the optimal time frame for finding potential work?

        1. I’d start applying 2-3 months in advance. I work in an international field and we are accustomed to interviewing over Skype and we usually expect to wait up to 2-3 months before a candidate can start work, as we hire a lot of people who need to get visas.

    3. I’m surprised by this – the US government actually has a whole slew of tax incentives (as do various states) for hiring currently unemployed people – in fact it’s an acceptable “preference” item when deciding whether to hire one person over another.

      1. I’d be curious to see the article. I can see how it could be a disadvantage for an unemployed person to go into an interview when that person has been unemployed for several months. Even though the economy/job market is tough, I could see some employers wondering why exactly this person has been unemployed for SO long?
        Just a thought…

        1. Really? Do you have any idea about the job market and economy out there? Get off Corporette and read up some real news.

          Having said that, sadly many many employers think like you. Those that make hiring decisions or have jobs like to delude themselves into thinking that they are hanging on to their jobs because they are something special.

          1. Can you read? She didn’t say that she thinks what she said. She said she can imagine that some employers do. Maybe the reason you’re unemployed is that you’re a troll with poor reading comprehension skills?

          2. First off, I don’t remember anyone saying they were unemployed here, so I don’t think Anonymous has the best reading comprehension either.

            That being said, let’s keep it classy, ladies.

            If I remember, this is a forum for professional women to discuss issues relevant to our demographic and offer advice. That doesn’t include use of high school- type name calling.

          3. Whoa. Allow me to clarify myself:

            I understand that the economy and job market out there is abysmal. I never said I agree with any of the propositions I made. I was simply just attempting to determine an underlying reasoning for the “unemployed” bias that ning mentioned.

            As ning said – let’s keep it classy ladies.

      2. Some law firms had a hiring policy during 2008-9 to not hire associates from other firms that were laid off. The only laterals they would hire are ones that were working at the time. The reasoning is that if one firm didn’t think they were valuable enough to keep them on, then they weren’t valuable enough to hire during a bad economic time. Which kinda makes sense…

        1. Yes, that is true! However, the laid off associates or employees are not necessarily unowrthy enough not to keep around, just that they were in a position that was identified to be eliminated, or in associates case, not enough work intheir particular area.

          Ironically many existing associates or employees of a corporation have managed to hold on to their jobs thorugh a combination of just dumb luck – like being in an in demand practice or area or by having right connections. They are not particularly talented or valuable than those who were laid off.

          Ironically, the same people who are making these hiring decisions are the ones who might not be hired in current high demanding job market.

      3. I’ve heard of many employers doing this, even for entry level positions. It seems odd to me that employers are willing to take people who would leave a job after 4-6 months instead of looking at new graduates who still aren’t employed for whatever reason. If someone’s going to leave an employer that quickly, chances are she’ll do the same thing with the next employer.

  29. I’m looking for some casual shoes to wear in the winter. In the summer, I wear cute sandals, but I can’t decide what to buy for winter. I have cute boots, but they’re high heels. I need flats, but I don’t want to wear sneakers or boots that make me look even shorter (I’m 5’1). Any ideas?

    1. Depends upon what you mean by “casual”, and also “winter.” I say that because one woman’s casual might be another woman’s workshoe, and also winter is variable–I live in S. CA so my winter is equivalent to some northern climate’s summer! LOL

      That being said, I wear boots, tall or booties, for winter semi-casual. I have a pair of Born harness-type that have a 2″ heel. I have a Pikolino pair with a 1″ heel that are also quite casual. Then I’ve also got non-gym type sneaker things (like sketchers) that work great for going to farmers markets, etc. Just bought a pair of fantastic Lynnea Uggs which are clog boots that garnered 3 compliments on their first foray out of the closet! So I suppose I would say I go for boots in the winter for casual.

      I do lace-up oxford shooties, round-toed pumps and a few boots for work, which might give you an idea of my shoe wardrobe…. :-)

    1. It’s never too early, lol. My first year out of law school, which was more years ago than I like to think, I attended my firm practice area’s Christmas party in the same short, black strapless dress that I had worn the year before to my law school spring dance. What was a fun look in law school was definitely not good for a conservative law firm function. I still blush with shame at the complete inappropriateness and unprofessionalism of that dress! Wish this website had been around back then.

    2. Ha! I wish I had an office party that required a dress – instead we have a beyond horrible luncheon with a “white elephant” wherein everyone endeavors to give each other the worst possible item – I’ve seen spatulas w/ food on them, old tax guides, foot fungus cream, etc. and the food is Chinese takeout buffet style — the VP for my area LOVES it… I can’t wait until that guy retires!

  31. any ladies out there who swim for fitness!? like masters’ competitions? and if so, do you get brazilian waxes? am mid 30s and never done it, but am tired of shaving around my suitline. nyc based, so thinking about bliss spa and their ‘in betweeny’ wax which sounds less drastic than the full brazilian. Does it kill you growing back in? does it make you more aerodynamic ;)
    any other advice appreciated!!

    1. Swimmer here, although I no longer compete. I’ve been doing Brazilians for the last 2 years and i love it.

      Here’s the thing – it’s pretty painful, but the results are great. You probably will have a good 3 weeks or so before you will want to get it done again. But if it’s just for your bikini line, you don’t need to go full Brazilian. I think the in betweeney one is called a French wax around here. Basically a bikini wax that extends in a few inches. It would be a good place to start so you could see how you are liking it. The growing back in doesn’t bother me at all.

      I’ve been told by friends to take 3 advil before going and not to go around TOM to minimize the pain factor.

      I don’t think it’s going to make you swim any faster, but like with shaving your legs, it might make you feel a little more aerodynamic. ;)

      1. I find a regular bikini wax is enough, actually, particularly since my serious lap-swimming suits have more coverage than those I wear on fun occasions. (They might be cut high at the side, but the front is fine.)

        I have vicious problems with regrowth, so there’s no way I’d go near a Brazilian wax, but I don’t think it’s necessary just for swimming.

        And I’ve noticed zero aerodynamics depending on how hair-free I am ;)

    2. Three words: LASER HAIR REMOVAL.

      You will not regret it.

      Nowadays, the lasers are highly sophisticated and work on all skin types and hair colors. It’s expensive, but it really pays for itself. I have not shaved or waxed my bikini or armpits in years!

      1. Call me crazy, but I like my coochie hair. It’s a neat bush and fits nicely within the bikini without showing, no waxing needed ;-)

      2. I swear by laser hair removal. And its very specific – you can just “laser” off the hair that would lie outside of your suit – no need to go any further.

        The downside is the cost and the time required (once a month for six months), but my only regret is that I didn’t start saving for it from my first after-school job in high school. LOVE.

    3. Played waterpolo in college, so I hear you. The real problem with waxing is the regrowth phase…the hair is (outside your suit) and long. So if you’re cool looking that way for 2-3 weeks at a time, then waxing’s for you. Otherwise, shave or laser. Sorry….

  32. PSA: Eddie Bauer is offering 30% off all day Saturday. Online code: CELEBRATE. Phone order code: 717

  33. Does any one else have problems with their fingernail cuticles? I’ve tried a sally hanson cream but with no visible improvement. I seem to always have hangnails. Manicures make it better but I can’t really be getting one every week, and with cold weather coming I know they are going to start getting worse.

    1. Lotil hand cream by Caswell-Massey is the best stuff ever for dry hands. Just rub it into your cuticles while you are putting it on your hands, and it helps alot. My hands, including cuticles, get horribly dry in the winter, cracking and bleeding dry, this is the best thing I’ve found.

    2. I use an aveda cuticle product on my cuticles each night before i go to sleep, it seems to work pretty well. I also put some oil on them each time I paint my nails, which is once a week. My cuticles are OK, a little ragged in some areas, but definitely not as bad as they were before I started paying attention to them. This is pretty anectodal, but I’ve also read somewhere that fingernail condition is a reflection of your overall health, so you might want to assess your diet and see if you are lacking in any of the essentials. I know that if I’m not getting enough protein, my nails suffer.

    3. try rubbing oil directly into your cuticles every night – I’ve been using jojoba lately, and I really like how quickly it absorb. I think it even makes my nails stronger.

    4. burt’s bees makes cuticle cream. i honestly have never seen a difference because i use it about once a month during the winter (and it is now quite a few years old), but i’ve been told really good things about it from others. plus it smells nice.

    5. this might just be me, but I used to get crazy hangnails if I had them cut my cuticles when I got manicures. I dont get manicures much anymore but when I do, I ask them just to push them back. Haven’t had them in a while, also try to use burt’s bees cuticle cream and a hands and nails lotion – vaseline makes one regularly. But for me not cutting them helped, dunno why.

  34. I have recently joined the board of a non-profit, and part of my responsibility is to help fundraise by both making a donation myself and trying to get support from others. My office does not have a policy on this, but I never see people use the departmental or other listservs asking for donations (which is great) — and so therefore don’t want to take this tack. We have an upcoming event, and I’m thinking of putting up a few flyers in breakrooms and putting it in our office newsletter. Does that seem appropriate?

    1. Check your company policy. Most have explicit non-solicitation provisions, that while not usually enforced for things like girl Scout cookies, maybe frowned upon for non-profit solicitations, particularly if there is a corporate charity.

  35. This may be a dumb question, but how does one get a copy of a federal criminal indictment/complaint if you are a non-party?
    Do you have to file a freedom of information request or is it easily accessible since it is a public record?

    1. It will become public and is available on the court’s electronic filing website as soon arrests are made, unless otherwise sealed. Usually, they are on pacer http://www.pacer.com as soon as the arrest/indictment occurs.

      1. Thanks! Do you have to register? And, also, how do you find the case you need? Can you search by defendant’s name? Thank you!!!!

        1. I think Pacer requires a subscription, which may be too much if you just want one filing. You might check your local public library: Our local ones have access to some of these services for free. Or ask an attorney friend to use his/her firm’s subscription (if that doesn’t violate company policy). Also, Google is your friend. I’ve found my name in court cases when I search my full name, as some of the pleadings are online.

        2. Sorry, I was incorrect. You do have to register and then you search by name. It’s free if it’s less than $10 per month in charges. And the website a lawyer listed for it above is incorrect…it’s http://www.pacer.gov instead.

    2. I say yes. Unless you’re 80, no one’s going to think Barbara Bush. It’s a nice suit.

      1. I like the suit, but I am from TX, so I don’t know if that answers your question. I would wear the jacket and skit separately, but might pair up both if I went to a fundraiser or some other event like that.

    3. If yours has a pencil skirt, it sounds like just a basic, classic style skirt suit. I think it would be a nice suit.

  38. There’s something about brightly colored suits that screams Washington – politician or pol’s spouse. I would not want to buy or wear it – TX CA or anywhere. This is definitely a year of neutral colors, including a neutral soft rose that Ann Taylor is featuring. It’s nice to have a brightly colored winter coat if it goes well with your other clothes that you will be wearing under it.

    1. I love bright colors, but even for me that bright blue suit seems a bit too much.

      1. I look like someone out of a nineteenth century novel about to die of consumption if I wear the sort of pale colours that are in this year – I wince every time I wander through my local department store and see all the pastels. (And unfortunately, the bits of colour are too pricey. I can’t justify 150 euro v-neck jumpers.)

        Anyway, this is just to say not to be overwhelmed by what’s ‘in’ if it’s stupendously unflattering.

        1. Yeah- I hate that soft rose as it is one of the worst colors possible for me. I dread when the neutrally pastels come back in (usually every few years). I do alright in colorful pastels, but since I don’t really have cool or warm skin, I can’t do the more bland colors. Camel also looks hideous on me.

  39. I’ve joined ideeli and rue la la (and zulily, too!) and now I’d like to join gilt. Can someone who is a member invite me? I’m on the waiting list but I believe an invite lets you right in. Let me know – thanks!

    1. Hi Sadie — I think I should be able to do it. Do you have an email I can use?

  40. Can someone recommend a good place to ski within 4 hours of Philadelphia? My husband and I are novices so I’m not looking for any place particularly fancy or well known. We will be going with another couple who has never skiied before. Ideally would like to be in a cute town with good restaurants as well. Vermont is gorgeous but a bit farther than what we want to travel (about 7 hours). Thanks for any suggestions!

    1. Closest is obviously the Pocono’s. Since I don’t ski, can’t really comment, but I would say it’s a step down (potentially a large step down) from Vermont. Also, not sure if it’s cold enough there yet – depending on when you want to go.

      Alternative might be somewhere in NY.

    2. if you’re limiting yourself to a 4-hour radius, you’re pretty much stuck with poconos or new york state. in NY, there’s Hunter, perennial home of the satin-Jets-jacket-with-jeans skier look and godawful lift lines (the Belt Parkway is a fun blue run, but damn, the crowds can make it stressful), there’s Bellaire, which is cheap and almost-always-uncrowded, but the runs are short and the lifts are super slow, and there’s Whiteface Lake Placid (a/k/a Ice Face), which is a bit further north, plus the nickname says it all. for east coast skiing, i prefer New Hampshire, but that’s a bit further (though not as expensive as Vermont).

      1. If you’re truly a beginner you might consider Jack Frost/Big Boulder in Lake Harmony, PA. One lift ticket will buy you two mountains to explore and there should be plenty of well-groomed blue trails to keep you busy. Just remember: no mountain in Pennsylvania is going to have the cozy lodge and palatable dining of Vermont or Utah.
        If you’re thinking of visiting Whiteface Lake Placid do heed nobody’s warning…Ice Face for sure.

        1. I second Jack Frost. Not too big, has some longer length beginner trails. Unfortunately not so much on the cute town aspect, but after a long first day skiing you might be too sore to walk and just glad for a dip in the hot tub (at least I always am :) )

        2. Third Jack Frost. I went skiing for the first time ever over a long weekend – did Camelback on Day 1 and JF on Day 2. I think JF’s layout works best for beginners — you actually start at the top of the mountain, so the “people milling about waiting to go down” are separate from the “people milling about waiting to go up” — much calmer. On the weekend I was there, JF’s snow was much easier to ski on — not as wet and less ice — and they had a better variety of truly beginner hills than did Camelback.

          I would highly recommend a private or semi-private lesson to start either way — my semi-private at JF ended up just being me, one other person and the instructor, which was a great bargain.

          If you go with another couple and want to rent a house, we used VRBO(dot)com to find a place that looked cute and had (key) an AMAZING hot tub.

    3. Thank you ladies for the recommendations! I should have clarified from the very beginning that the other couple who will be coming with us will be traveling from Hartford, CT. Lake Harmony seems very close to us, less close for them also certainly doable. If anyone has recommendations that are close to both Philly and Hartford, that would be much appreciated. In any event, I will certainly look into Jack Frost. I have also heard of Hunter as well, although it looks like at least one of you is not too psyched about that idea. Thanks!

      1. I learned to ski in the NY Catskills (a billion years ago). I would recommend staying away from Hunter. Bellayre is good. You might also check out Butternut, in the Berkshires, and Mohawk Mountain, in Connecticut. Both small local areas that are very good for beginners.

    4. There is Shawnee and Camelback in the Poconos (haven’t been to either but I think Shawnee is less crowded), Hunter & Belleayre in NY (been to Belleayre, small mountain not crowded, great for beginners). Mountain Creek in NJ, small and very crowded. If you want to go a little further there are a few places in CT, which I haven’t been to, and some in MA, I’ve been to Jiminy Peak lots of trails, but can also get crowded. I hope you enjoy!

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