Weekend Open Thread

Lands' End Sleeveless Cotton Modal Pattern Fit and Flare DressSomething on your mind? Chat about it here.

Lands’ End has had these dresses for a while now — every season they come out in new colors and patterns (and in petites, plus, and tall sizes).  I picked up a few myself on deep discount last year (I’m 5’4″ and preferred the length on the petite), and think they are great summer dresses.  They’re a bit low cut for work — hello, camisole! — and the t-shirt fabric is definitely on the casual side, but in general I’m happy with my purchases.  I’m really liking this “classic navy dots” print, here — they have a version in black dots as well that has lucky sizes only left in petite and plus sizes; solid colors are here.  They range in price from $55-$69.  Lands’ End Sleeveless Cotton Modal Pattern Fit and Flare Dress

(L-3)

Comments

  1. Pretty, casual dress.

    TGIF!

    • Wildkitten :

      Amen.

    • Sydney Bristow :

      Super cute! Makes me long for warmer weather…

    • Yeah it’s cute! Might be a bit long for me. Dresses at or below the knee on me look frumpy.

      It’s finally Mardi Gras break! I took today off because I had some stuff to do and going out tonight. But then 5 more days off and only a little bit of actual Mardi Gras. I can’t wait – I’ll do my taxes, go to BR shopping, work on assembling my new filing cabinet. I so need this.

      • That sounds amazing! We planted flowers this am and got some artwork hung up. Lunch with Mr Cb’s aunt and uncle tomorrow, they are retired botanists and the most fantastic people ever. So lucky to have them in town.

    • I love dresses like this for weekend wear during the summer. I wear petites at LE as well and am 5’5″

    • A word about this dress- I got it last season in a similar color/print and it definitely ran green all over everything – my bra, my cardigan, etc. Beware.

  2. Cute but very casual. They were styled nicely in the print catalog with coordinating cardigans. I dress casually, but this is too casual for me to wear to work. (I could get away with it but I’d definitely feel underdressed).

    • I agree that this would be too casual for the large majority of offices, but it is super-cute and I love casual dresses for summer – it would be great for a BBQ or casual date.

    • Yay! Open thread’s! I love Open thread’s! I also think Tesyaa is on point again! I agree with Tesyaa that this is a great causal dress, but it clearley need’s a CAMI. What a great topic for discusion, Kat! Very thoughtful to include a nice dress at this stage, b/c I am of the belief that a nice dress with a cami is the best entree into the business world! YAY!

      This weekend, my dad is comeing into town and we are goieng to see if he can get me a new TABLET computer. My ipad is getting a littel long in the tooth and he said I should just give it to him and he will give it to mom or Grandma Trudy and this will replace their Andreoid’s.

      I am thinkeing that I want an IPAD MINI with RETTENA Display and 128 gigebite’s of data and a data connection. I told Dad this was goieng to cost a lot of MONEY but he said that I was worth it and If I used this, men would mabye marry me, so in the long run, he think’s it could be a very cheep investement in my future. YAY!!!!

      Myrna think’s me dateing Rosa’s ex-freind’s ex husband might work, tho she think’s I would probabley have to live in Chapaqua. FOOEY! She also said she should meet him before letting Rosa foysteing him on me. Myrna says if this guy want’s me, he should be ready to moove in to NYC, not me moove to Chapaqua, even tho Rosa is there, especialy if I am forced to keep workeing. If I can quit work and move up there, mabye I will consider that, but I do NOT see that hapening soon, especialy if he needs extra income to suport me as a SAHM. But Myrna warned me that no guy is goieng to marry me until he has a lot of sex with me to make sure I am worth it. FOOEY! I am NOT a blowup doll just for men to have sex with. I am a person with a lot of brain’s and beauty. Why do MEN just want to use women like me like a blowup doll? DOUBEL FOOEY! I am so much more then that.

      If anyone in the hive knows a decent guy who I can date and not have sex all the time before we are MARRIED, please let me know. I do not think enough men respect me for my mind, and I have a very strong mind, dad say’s! YAY!!!

    • Abby Lockhart :

      I would wear this to the office on the weekend with a cardigan that I could put on if others are there, or take off when the A/C is not running. It would look like you made an effort but I bet it feels like pajamas.

    • Wildkitten :

      Preg 3l said the weekend posts are supposed to be weekend wear – which makes sense for this too.

    • Jenna Rink :

      I have it in a couple solid colors. It’s the perfect dress for running errands on the weekend, it totally does feel like pajamas. I wear it to my office during the summer, but my office is very everything goes and not air conditioned. Personally I find it a bit unflattering to my rear with a cardigan – something about the combination of the flair and the cardigan cuts me off at an awkward place and makes my butt look huge.

  3. Anonattorney :

    TGIF!

    Moisturizing question – my facial skin has been DRY this winter. Looking to change-up my lotions and face-wash to hopefuly rehydrate my poor poor skin.

    What is your moisturizing routine? What lotions/creams do you use? What type of skin do you have?

    • I use this mask to combat winter dryness. It really makes my skin feel better. When I feel really dry, I leave it on over night. Otherwise just for 5-10 min. http://www.dermstore.com/product_34220.htm

      Getting a humidifier for my bedroom has also done wonders.

    • Cerave cream (in the tub) has saved my skin this winter.

      • +1 on Cerave. I used to think “a moisturizer is a moisturizer,” but ceramides make all the difference in the world.

        • Do you find the cream in the tub is suitable for your face? In Canada Cerave hasn’t released the AM/PM facial moisturizers, but I do desperately need something to combat dryness and have used/trusted the brand’s hydrating cleanser for countless years.

          • Sorry this is late– but yes, I use it on my face (does not break my sensitive, acne-prone skin out). It has really, really helped!

    • Seattle Freeze :

      Honestly, I’ve gotten the biggest benefit from doing less to my skin – it’s gotten a bit drier over the last couple of years. I used to use the classic Neutrogena facial soap to cleanse morning & night, with a creamy moisturizer in the morning (most recently Olay Total Effects) and a night cream with retinol at night – that all became too much and my face started looking dry & flaky.

      Now I only rinse with water & washcloth in the morning, then use a BB cream as moisturizer/primer. At night, I use a makeup remover towelette (Yes to Cucumbers or Comodynes), then a creamy night cream – currently an Aveeno cream, I think.

      • Yikes, you are murdering your skin. In the long run that will be very damaging.

        • Everyone’s different. This is almost exactly what I do & my skin is perfect.

          • I meant all the chemical yuckies. I make my own moisturizer out of coconut oil, bees wax, essential oils, glycerin, almond oil , and vitamin e. I tone with alcohol free witch hazel and I use “soap works oatmeal soap” to cleanse.

          • And here I thought you were licking your paws and rubbing them over your face & whiskers.

            Seriously, though – where in your homemade moisturizer/witch hazel/oatmeal soap routine (which sounds perfectly nice, by the way, if tedious) is any kind of sunscreen? Unless you’re avoiding the sun entirely and wearing a hat and sunglasses every time you go outside, you are murdering your skin with UV exposure. Sun damage is invisible until it’s too late, and irreversible.

        • Seattle Freeze :

          Really? Murdering my skin. I’ve worn sunscreen daily (and still do – my BB cream has a high SPF) since I was a teenager, and always wear sunglasses outside, even in grey Seattle – as a result, I have hardly any wrinkles at 40. Since I stopped using soap, it’s softer, more supple, even dewy.

          Everyone’s skin is different, and everyone’s skin changes over time. Mine is happier without soap or harsh anything applied to it, and looks great.

        • Another face washing minimalist here. I’m in my mid 40s and look at least 10 years younger than my peers. It’s a combination of a good genetics, religious use of sunscreen since childhood, and not doing lots of stuff to my face. Per my dermatologist, I wash with cetaphil and moisturize/sunscreen with something light (currently Oil of Olay fragrance free). I also use a high SPF BB cream and use a richer moisturizer during the winter. My skin looks great. My dermatologist said a lot of the scrubs, Clarisonic included, and harsher products would wreak havoc on my skin. Everyone is different. I don’t feel the need to use a bunch of expensive potions and fortunately my skin prefers that I don’t.

        • I am going to have to disagree. My skin looks infinitely worse for each extra step I add to my routine. I’ve also seen 5 different dermatologists over the course of my lifetime. Each one has advised a less is more approach.

        • Also early 40s with a similar routine – cetaphil, a drugstore moisturizer (admittedly a French drugstore), diligent sun avoidance all my life. In weekend clothes, I get asked if I am a student.

    • Anon in NYC :

      I use two moisturizers on my face in the morning, plus SPF. Clinique Dramatically Different Gel, then SPF (Eltamd UV Clear SPF – love), then Clinique Moisture Surge. At night I use Korres Greek Yoghurt Advanced Nourishing Sleeping Facial. Sometimes if my skin feels dry I’ll use a facial oil at night, and then the Korres. My skin is combination, with oiliness in the t-zone area, and this routine keeps my skin hydrated without any real dryness (but also not oily). I also drink a ton of water.

      • I love Clinique Moisture Surge! Well, I absolutely love how it feels, it’s just so luxurious, and doesn’t feel oily at all (a huge factor for me)… but if I’m honest with myself, it’s not terribly moisturizing. I have to keep mixing it with argan oil to keep from drying out in the winter, but it’s somehow still worth it.

        • It’s funny that Clinique’s Moisture Surge has been brought up because I just bought some yesterday. I have very sensitive skin and have not historically used Clinique products, but needed some extra moisture and trusted that the brand should be suitable for me. WRONG! I have absolutely no idea what happened, but I woke up this morning with red, inflamed, scaly patches reminiscent of chemical burns. I’m very distressed about the situation. I wish this product had worked for me, or at the least, not mauled my skin.

    • I wash with face wash in the morning/shower, then moisturize with Panthenol cream from Kiehls (cheaper than ultra facial, and my skin loves it!), usually forget my bb/sunscreen.

      Then I similarly usually fall asleep before washing at night, but if I wear heavy makeup, I’ll wash off with facewash/soap.

      The best thing, more than hydration, humidifier has been hot yoga, since I find that sweating it out through my pores helps the most.

      tl;dr: panthenol cream for your face 1-2x a day. (i discovered this when my face start flaking in winter)

    • Oil-cleansing method. Sounds totally odd. And counter-intuitive, especially if you have oily skin.

      However, I’ve gotten GREAT results with it. I have hormonal acne, and a tendency to be very dry in patches, but very oily on my forehead. When I use OCM consistently, I find that I don’t have to do anything to my skin in order for it to be balanced.

      I use a combination of 1/3 castor oil to 2/3 grapeseed oil. When I need a scrub, I just use brown sugar (or baking soda). I keep my oil in the peri-bottle that I got as a “parting gift” from the hospital after my 2nd kid. I get in the shower, get my hair wet/out of my face, wet my face, then pat it dry (while still in the shower–I just pull a corner of my towel behind the curtain). I pour about a nickel-quarter size drop into my palm, rub together and just rub all over my face, trying to keep it away from my hairline. I will do everything else in the shower except wash my hair and face, so it stays on for about 5-8 minutes. Then I turn up the heat and typically I will just wipe it off with my hands and hot water. I will sometimes use the soft side of a wash cloth to help scrub it off. If I use the brown sugar, I will put about a teaspoon in the palm of my hands and rub together to get it partially dissolved, then rub all over my face WITH the oil still on it. After that, I am sure to use shampoo right at my hairline and scrub well. I have heard that some people have really good luck with OCM and the Clairsonic. One account that I read said that the woman would do a quick rinse with her oil, then reapply fresh oil, and then work it in with the clairsonic–otherwise, you’re basically washing your face with dirty oil. When/if I can ever splurge on the clairsonic, this will be my routine.

      I find that I don’t need moisturizer after about 2-3 times doing this, nor do I need to really pay much more attention to my skin. So, in the course of a week, I might do this 2-3 times a week. In between, I just wash with water. If I wear eye makeup, I use coconut oil and cotton balls to take it off.

      But, for an extra bit of moisture, I will dab coconut oil or grapeseed oil straight on my skin. A little goes a LONG way. I have a touch of eczema on my right browbone under my brow, so I have been just treating it with coconut oil, and it is subsiding after about a week or two. But, the OCM has actually really helped with the acne, with balancing dry/oily, and with keeping pores looking decent.

    • I wash off makeup as soon as I get home with Clinique mild soap and moisturize with Cetaphil lotion. In the mornings, I only rinse my face off with water in the shower and moisturize with Trader Joe’s face lotion with SPF. Once a week or so I exfoliate with a gentle scrub. A humidifier has made the biggest difference for me though.

    • Olivia Pope :

      I started washing my face with cold water and it’s made a huge difference. I moisturize with Neutrogena combination skin oil free mositerizer. I put on a layer, let it absorb, and then put on a second layer.

      I also drink way more water than I used to.

    • TO Lawyer :

      My daytime routine is the same but at night, I’ve been using a heavier moisturizer (origins Make A Difference™ Plus + Rejuvenating Moisturizer), plus probably about twice a week, I put argan oil (josie maran) on top of the moisturizer. I read on The Beauty Department that putting oil on top of your moisturizer acts as a shield and really lets the moisturizer sink in and it really works!

    • lawsuited :

      I have combination skin with oily T-zone and dry cheeks, and this winter is so harsh that I had dry, flaky patches of skin on my cheeks. I purchased the Clinique Turnaround Instant Facial and Clinique Moisture Surge Overnight Mask. One or 2 nights a week, I wear the Turnaround stuff on for 3-4 minutes, then scrub it off to exfoliate flaky skin, then I rub a goodly amount of the Moisture Surge stuff into my face. It leaves me skin looking and feeling really smooth and supple.

  4. For everyone who commented in the thread yesterday about cystic acne, this is going to sound crazy, but taking high doses of vitamin B5 cured the hormonal cystic acne of both my cousin and my sister. After trying Accutane and several other meds, my cousin found a couple medical studies online where they had great success using vitamin B5 to treat acne. He started taking large doses of vitamin B5 and it literally cleared up his terrible cystic acne within 2 weeks. He now has gorgeous skin — this was after years of dealing with horrible acne all over his face, neck, and back. My little sister had similar problems with acne, tried vitamin B5 after seeing how well it worked for my cousin, and now has clear skin. It somehow works to reset the imbalance in the mechanism of your skin’s oil production. My sister took vitamin B5 for a couple months and then stopped and her skin is still great, so the results seem to be permanent.

    Just google “vitamin B5 [or pantothenic acid] for acne” and start reading. My cousin and sister both started off with 10 grams a day, spread out in 4 doses. After a couple weeks, start decreasing your dosage to 4 grams a day. Vitamin B5 is water soluble, so your body will just excrete any extra vitamin. Both my cousin and sister used Jarrow Formulas Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B5) off Amazon.

    I assume this isn’t better publicized because it’s so cheap. There’s a lot more money in skincare and prescription drugs, and doctors generally get their continuing education from the drug companies.

    • Anne Shirley :

      Or, it isn’t better publicized because “a couple medical studies online” isn’t the gold standard for new treatments. In my experience dermatologists care deeply about the health of their patients’ skin. I’m glad your cousin and sister have found relief, buy I find your insinuations about doctors offensive.

      • Eh, having seen the results of the vitamin B5 firsthand, and having seen the medical hell that my cousin went through for a few years beforehand (side effects of Accutane and other drugs), I don’t think it’s offensive to suggest that the information that doctors get is often limited and that it can be worthwhile to do your own research.

        I referenced “a couple medical studies online” because I haven’t done the research myself and it’s something that people can look up on their own if they think it might help them. From what I remember, my cousin said there were some foreign research trials done and he read through the abstracts/results himself.

        Regardless, for something like cystic acne where it can literally feel like it’s ruining your life, I’m pretty excited to be able to share something that could potentially be extremely helpful to people with no side effects and almost no cost. That’s all.

        • L in DC, I agree 100% with you. I had some serious issues that my doc couldn’t diagnose and wanted to do increasingly expensive diagnostic tests. I told my grandmother about my issues. She pointed out that most women in her family have a vitamin B12 deficiency and some of my symptoms fit. 2 weeks on B12 (and my doctor saying that it wouldn’t hurt but she was skeptical) and I was feeling 1000% better.

          I do think that the medical industry is heavily biased in favor of expensive diagnostics and pharmaceuticals. It’s not the doctors’ fault–it’s the system we have in the U.S.. I think there is something to a lot of the weird treatments out there like ringworm for autoimmune issues, fecal transplants for C.Diff. and GI issues, and now B5 for cystic acne.

          • My mom has a B-12 deficiency and had to diagnose herself, too. Luckily, she is in the medical field and could do that, but her regular doctor actually fought her on doing the tests because he said it was “impossible” that that’s what it was.

            As for dermatologists, in my own experience they tend towards two types – the ones who actually treat skin ailments of all sorts and the ones who tend to mostly do botox injections. The latter tend to also just push pricey prescription treatments on you.

        • “I don’t think it’s offensive to suggest that the information that doctors get is often limited and that it can be worthwhile to do your own research.” This.

          I had a fairly serious health issue several years ago that is somewhat obscure and most doctors I met with to resolve it did not know much, if anything, about it. After the common, frontline treatments were unsuccessful, I did a lot of my own research, including reading recent articles in peer-reviewed medical journals, and figured out generally what I needed as a treatment plan. Finally I was able to get to a specialist who had focused his career on this issue (as in, probably one of the top 3 doctors in the US regarding this issue) and obviously he knew far more about it than me – but he agreed with everything I had read & concluded I needed. If I hadn’t had access to that kind of specialist (and most people don’t), my research would have been invaluable. It’s not offensive to suggest that patients benefit by being as informed as possible about their own treatment. It’s fact.

          • Anne Shirley :

            What I found offensive was the implication that doctors don’t suggest this remedy because it doesn’t make them money. If I’m reading to much into it I apologize.

          • Frugal doc :

            I read the same thing too, so you aren’t alone.

            We all come from our own experiences. I’ve had people say to me that doctors do this, and it upsets me when they do.

            Of course, that may not be what she meant…. But it did sound that way.

          • I assumed it’s more a combination of marketing and practicality. Doctors can’t keep up on EVERY new study or theory, and I doubt things that fall into the “relatively cheap things found in nature that can’t be patented” category don’t really have the marketing muscle of expensively developed drugs and other treatments.

            I’m not saying that “natural” is better, though. (Arsenic is “natural”, water is a chemical, etc. etc. etc.) Just that it’s harder to get on the radar.

        • Some more “out of the big pharma” box anecdata for you – I’m self-treating my migraine symptoms with oral electrolytes. When you go to the hospital for migraines, they give you fluids via IV. So, I thought I’d just down gatorade and see what would happen. A little, not much. Tried pedialyte. Much better and almost 100% relief with medicine. I’m trying out electrolyte pills and they actually work, even with other migraine triggers trying to make my head explode.

          More anecdata – my headache specialist is really impressed/surprised with how effective pedialyte is for me. And I’m also on a 400mg/day regimen of vit B2 as a migraine prevention measure as per her direction. There’s some chemistry there that I don’t understand but yeah, vitamins can be powerful tools.

          • My mom’s a nurse and the docs at her hospital writ scripts for Red Bull for anything they would otherwise treat with IV fluids and caffine where appropriate :)

          • Ru, have you tried increasing your magnesium? I take 500mg a day, on my doctor’s advice, and I have fewer migraines now. I’m filing the info about elecrolytes away … my migraines aren’t terrible, but it’s good to know what to try if they get worse.

      • Anonymous :

        I don’t know anything about B5 and acne and it may well be pseudoscience, but the belief that doctors in the US overprescribe drugs is a fairly widely held one.

      • Eh. I think you are blowing her comment out of proportion. The truth is that the marketing dollars are not behind a treatment like this, they are behind the prescription drugs (especially the ones without generics). Those marketing dollars impact both consumers and doctors. You really cannot convince me otherwise.

        And, fwiw, I cannot even begin to tell you how dismissive every. single. dermatologist. has been when I bring up my acne. And I’ve seen many. It’s truly unbelievable. They have a one-sized fits all approach that doesn’t work (at least for me and apparently for many other people) and the whole process of trying one prescription drug after another is time consuming, expensive, frustrating and fraught with crazy side-effects. I’m not sure what they could do better exactly, but a little criticism in this area is well-deserved, IMO.

        I have interacted with derms most of my life for various reasons. I have yet to meet one the “deeply cared” about my acne. My aesthetician has given me far more valuable information.

        • Sydney Bristow :

          I took a really interesting pharmaceutical patents class in law school. I know how expensive it can be and how long it can take to get a medication approved and on the market.

          The problem is that the incentives are messed up considering what the outcome for the patient would be. It’s more profitable for drug companies to come up with treatments that people need to take over time than it is to develop a vaccine or cure, which ultimately has a shorter lifespan to earn money. There was some discussion in the class about competitive incentives like the X-Prize for space flight. It was an interesting class but so frustrating to wrestle with.

    • I couldn’t tell you much about anything other than this…

      “doctors generally get their continuing education from the drug companies.”

      False. Sorry, but it is. Sure it makes up a share of the CME that MDs get SOMETIMES, but it is not “general” or “often.” In fact there are stricter sunshine rules in place now, more than ever and most physician organizations are significantly limiting the amount of exposure drug and device companies have at their annual meetings (which is where most physicians get their CME) because of stricter compliance issues.

      • You’re right, and I apologize; that part of my comment was overly broadbrush. What I was trying to communicate was my general frustration with the fact that drug companies are often footing the bill for new drug research and that affects a lot of what gets published. And that it’s often surprising how many doctors still make recommendations that fails to take into account newer research findings (e.g., two of my friends with slightly cholesterol levels being told to avoid shrimp and eggs because they are technically high in cholesterol).

        I have several doctor friends who are extremely intelligent, caring people. This was not meant as a personal attack on doctors whatsoever. I have also run across doctors who are lazy, incompetent, and overly willing to prescribe drugs at the drop of a hat. But, really, there are varying ranges of competencies in every profession. I just wanted to let people with cystic acne issues know that vitamin B5 is something worth researching, and I should’ve left off the comment at the end about doctors.

        • No worries! I just know a number of people who completely believe this and discount actual legitimate medical advice (for ex. you must take x BP med or you will have a stroke) because they believe the doc took money from manufacturer of X.

          The sad part is, in this country at least, you are required to be your own advocate and make sure you do your homework on every issue you’re having. It’s ridiculous and time consuming and frustrating no matter what the issue. It’s a shame, but until the incentives are changed, that’s the system we have, for better/worse.

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      Didn’t read the other post but my derm think dairy free (including whey/casein) is the key to being cystic acne free.

      • I heard this frequently when I had acne, and cut out dairy for this reason (sob, it was hard). My skin did not improve. For me, at least, the only food group/item that made me break out was soy. Once I figured that out, and stopped eating it, my skin improved 99%. Dairy is back in my life and we are very happy together!!

        But i’m not saying cutting out dairy won’t help for other people. I think that, unfortunately, acne is a super-individualized problem with very few broad stroke solutions. It’s mostly individual trial and error.

      • A friend of mine went gluten free and his acne cleared right up.

        I think the causes can be varied so there isn’t one single treatment but it’s great when it can be resolved by resolving other health issues.

        • Blonde Lawyer :

          Agreed. I don’t even have cystic acne. I just read her literature when I’m waiting for my appt. Figured if it could help someone I would mention it.

        • I did this last year and within two weeks of eating gluten free, my skin was 100% clear. After 20 years of regular visits to the dermatologist (including THREE courses of Accutane).

          In my case I know it’s not just a coincidence because when I “indulge” in wheat (I won’t limit myself during vacations, and I’ll have a slice of cake at a birthday party for example) I have a small flare-up within a few days. Go back to gluten free eating, and my skin clears up within days.

          Also agree that everyone’s skin/body chemistry is different so this approach may not work for every person. I think it’s absolutely worth it to try dietary modification or simple OTC solutions. Stick with what works for you.

    • I had a question after reading the other thread- why would people be so opposed to hormonal BCP, but perfectly fine taking spironlactone and the like? Those drugs act on hormone receptors not entirely differently than hormonal BCP, so it’s not like you’re cleansing your body of unnatural substances or something.

      I understand if empirically you find hormonal BCP to make you a raging crazy b!tch and the various antiandrogens for treating acne don’t, but it’s not like there’s anything “wrong” with taking hormones if you need them.

      • Personally, I have migraine with aura, which is why I can’t take BC that contains estrogen, and progesterone-only BC has bad effects on me. I looooooooooooooooved my BC bill (extended-cycle, monophasic, so great), so I’m definitely not anti-BC. It sucked big time starting to break out when I had to stop taking the pill, so spironolactone was a godsend.

    • spironolactone :

      For the people who suggested spironolactone (aldactone) for hormonal acne in yesterday’s comments, (1) what dosage are you on? and (2) have you had problems with hair shedding since starting it?

      My hair has been shedding like crazy since taking 75 mgs, but my doctor seems to think this is not a typical side effect of the medicine (if anything, it would be used to help with hair growth in women losing their hair for hormonal reasons), and that it is likely stress/diet causing the hair shedding.

      • Blonde Lawyer :

        I couldn’t tolerate it. I was on it for a dermatological cyst but not cystic acne. I did a ramp of 25 to 50 to 75. I’m also on hormonal bcp (ortho tri cyclen). I got very dizzy, felt constantly hormonal, sweaty, nauseous and passed out on 75. I stopped taking it.

        I also started spotting and haven’t stopped but that could be from our trial of taking bcp constantly (which is not usually don’t with tri cyclen) rather than from spiro. My doc thought it was the Sprio. Sprio is the devil to me.

      • Wildkitten :

        I’m on 50 mg and it makes me a little lightheaded when I exercise but not enough to bother me.

      • I’m on 50mg regularly, 100mg the week before my period and whenever I feel like a breakout is brewing. I was a little dizzy in the beginning, I’m often thirsty, but other than that no side effects. My b**bs got bigger the first few months I started taking it, but unfortunately that side effect didn’t stay. I haven’t noticed more hair shedding but my hair has always shed like crazy.

      • I’m on 25, and no issues with shedding hair. I did lose tons of hair when I was using Mirena – it was really bad.

      • I’ve read that spironolactone has also been used to treat women with excessive hair growth dues to polycystic ovary disease. So it could very well be that you are experiencing hair loss as a side effect of the drug.

  5. Has anyone sold their wedding dress on Once Wed or PreOwnedWeddingDresses? I’m guessing this is the sort of situation where nobody will be able to do a direct comparison of the entire process, but any anecdotes or experiences with either of them would be greatly appreciated! I’m leaning towards Once Wed because they don’t charge a fee (except for their “Premier Listing”) but PreOwned does and I’m wondering if there are any really good reasons to choose the fee-based site vs. the free site. Thanks!

    • I didn’t sell my dress, but I did shop on both sites a lot. I found the search tools on Once Wed were not as useful but it looks like they’ve improved them. Also, I liked that PreOwnedWeddingDresses let you sign up to be notified if a specific dress that you liked was listed.

    • I sold my wedding dress on Once Wed. It took a realllllly long time to sell – I think it was listed for 3 years. I had forgotten I listed it when someone finally emailed me. It was an ok experience. I think its tough because you really need someone to want your exact dress in your exact size and color, and that can be tough to find. Especially if your dress is on the less expensive end of wedding dresses, having it cleaned properly can really eat up your profits, and most people want the dress cleaned.

      Before I sold it I had been contacted by a few scammers – watch out for that.

  6. Has anyone tried the Smartwool wool tights (at Nordstrom’s)? I’m sick of layering tights in this weather, and those look like a good option, but there were no reviews.

  7. navy pantyhose :

    Any thoughts on navy pantyhose? I’ve never seen anyone wearing them (except maybe Duchess Kate last year) so I’m not sure if they’re weird or not… but I have a navy suit and a navy sheath dress I like very much and I’m not sure black hose would look good with them. I also don’t like wearing opaque tights with suits/workwear. I know I could wear nude nose with my navy suit, but I like the idea of something that looks more winter/fall appropriate.

    • Anonymous :

      IMO navy hose with a navy sheath or suit might be a little too much navy.

      What about oatmeal colored tights? I have a pair of Hue tights from Anthro from a few years ago that are a sort of light brown with a subtle dark brown veining pattern that looks great with navy.

    • I’ve done it. I think it looks nice as long as the navy is on the darker side and almost looks black.
      I also like dark gray tights with navy but they tend to look more casual.

    • navy pantyhose :

      thanks for both of your responses. I tend to agree that navy hose might look too much with my navy suit/dress if I’m also wearing navy shoes… and what other color shoes would look good anyway? it just feels like a conundrum.

    • Orangerie :

      What about sheer brown hose and dark brown pumps?

      • navy pantyhose :

        hmm I hadn’t thought of that. would sheer brown hose look like I mismatched my skin color though (my usual “nude for me” hose color would be beige). I don’t want it to look like I’m in denial about my pale winter skin.

        • Orangerie :

          I don’t think so. It would probably look pretty close to the way sheer black hose appears on your skin. Might be worth a shot!

        • No, it’ll look like you’ve matched your hose to your shoes. Anyhow, this is a combo that works for me.

    • I am wearing dark navy hose right now, with a winter white skirt, navy heels, and a navy sweater. I love this combo but agree that navy hose with a navy sheath or suit may be too much navy. How about a pair of sheer navy hose? I have a pair from J Crew that I got in the fall that are a sheer navy with little navy dots on them, and they work with navy dresses as the sheerness of the hose lightens the look and breaks up the all-navy-all-dark palette.

    • NUDE PUMP WEATHER!!! :

      Navy hose + nude pumps = (Nars) orgasm!!!

  8. Q for a client :

    My client is looking to move and has no idea where to go. I want to see if any of you ladies have suggestions.

    She is in her late 60′s, arthritic disability and doesn’t work, just got divorced and has to manage life on her own for the first time ever. She wants a warm climate with low COL and good health care. She can afford a place that is under $200k and has a $3k/month budget. She would like to be driving distance from a beach but is open to other artsy/cultural/nature attractions instead. Loves to garden and wants to find a place that allows her some gardening space in her yard. She currently lives in cold high COL New England and is willing to move anywhere. She has two dogs and a cat.

    Suggestions of states, towns, regions, or particular senior living communities appreciated!

    • Wildkitten :

      New Mexico!

      • As a Santa Fe resident I have to disagree. My money’s on Houston: one of the best healthcare areas in the US, low COL, Galveston beach ~ 1 hour, tons of museums/arts/culture. As long as she’s cool with crazy humidity.

      • Nm now co anon :

        DO NOT SUGGEST NM. IT IS THE LAND OF ENTRAPMENT! It is horrible, dusty, dead, and everything is trying to stab you. It’s awful.

    • Conway SC :

      It’s inland from Myrtle Beach. Lots of my friends have parents about that age who have followed them down there and they all seem to love it (so lots of transplants, too).

    • I would look online at Money Magazines “Best Places to Live” and “Best Places to Retire”. They do features every year that slice and dice on a lot of criteria and she might be surprised at what town intrigues her after checking that out.

    • South Alabama, the Florida panhandle (maybe even the Tallahassee area?)?

    • southeast :

      I would say southern NC. Wilmington is beautiful, and close to lots of different beaches (and super cheap–about 30% lower COL than Boston, or about 55% lower than NYC, for example). NC has some really neat smaller towns: Greenville (home of East Carolina University, and on the cutting edge in some medical fields), Washington, Edenton or NewBern. She’s going to have higher COL when she goes further south toward Charleston/Savannah & Florida, for the most part, but, oddly enough, coastal NC is pretty inexpensive, especially if she can stay away from the predominantly-summer tourist areas like outer banks.

      • I love, love, love that part of the world. Totally agree re ECU’s medical school making Greenville NC a great place to be. Plus, the airport for there is PGV = pigville (in a good BBQ sort of way).

      • The Outer Banks would be nice. Greenville is not really a good place to be though (in general and for her demographic).

      • I lived in Winston-Salem for a few years–it was rated by Forbes as the top place to retire in the past few years. Low COL, lots of theatre, a few hours from the beach and the mountains.

    • blacksburg va! :

      Blacksburg VA (not near the beach, sadly) has a super low cost of living (comparatively), a well-educated and involved citizenry, a thriving and ever-improving downtown, and millions of acres of national forest at your doorstep.

      w w w dot yesmontgomeryva dot org/content/119/219/1583.aspx

    • Abby Lockhart :

      Gainesville, FL meets all of those criteria.

    • Las Vegas might be a good option. Closest beach is a 4 hour drive, but there are other outdoorsy attractions, such as Red Rock Canyon, Mount Charleston, and Lake Mead. There is also a growing arts and cultural scene (First Friday, Smith Center for Performing Arts, etc.). Affordable housing, no state income tax. There are two large master-planned retirement communities (one on the west side of town (Sun City Summerlin), closer to Red Rock and the spring mountain range, and one on the southeast side of town (Sun City Anthem), closer to Lake Mead), both in nice areas, that might be worth looking into. I suggest a community because they tend to host activities and outings for residents, which would make it easier to meet people and explore.

    • Folly Beach, SC? I grew up in Virginia Beach, and though the pickings are slimmer in that budget, she could probably snag a little 1BR house inland enough to avoid hurricane-related issues, but close enough to the beach to go regularly (or one of the area cities, like Suffolk).

    • DesertAnon :

      Palm Springs, CA or its surrounding area. Great healthcare, lots of options in that price range, many active seniors.

  9. TGIF ladies! Anyone wanna do some online shopping for me? :) I have an associates’ business development event hosted by my firm next week and want to get a new dress for it. Has to be from Nordstrom b/c I have some gift cards there to use. The event is all associates and it’s a beer tasting event (fun!) and the invited guests are all associate contacts, so it’s supposed to be for a younger crowd but I still want to look professional obviously. TIA! :)

  10. Anon for This :

    I have a client who I am assisting in combating some stalking type claims. While generally normal he has made some comments in emails that make me uncomfortable, for example, talking about groups rewarding men who “rape women like me.” I want to discourage him from putting me into his scenarios, thoughts on how to do this?

    • Withdraw.

    • Anonymous :

      Your house is on fire and youre asking how to tell the post office to hold your mail?

    • Of course, please check your bar rules for guidance on how to withdraw and whether you need the court’s consent. If you have a supervising attorney, I’d talk to them too. This is more than just a client being slightly inappropriate.

      • Blonde Lawyer :

        Just warning people before they start reading my post below, I totally mis-read the initial scenario. IGNORE!

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      I wouldn’t withdraw. This is what he is counting on. Scaring all women or anyone who helps the woman he is stalking. If you aren’t comfortable in the risks involved and protecting yourself please find someone who is willing to help her no matter how scary it gets. Don’t just withdraw and leave her high and dry.

      Is he represented? If I were you, I would get my own restraining order. Ask that he only contact you via email. These emails are your (and her) proof that he is dangerous. Talk to your local police about stepping up the watch around your house. Ask coworkers to walk you out at night. Keep your head up and be alert. Check in your car before driving. Alternate how you drive home at night so it is not always the same route. Take a self defense class. Get a gun. Get a dog. Talk to a DV advocate on a safety plan. Only meet him at court no matter what so he goes through metal detectors. Depos and mediations can be at court when necessary.

      Tell your work about this threat. Have a work safety plan. Have his picture at the front desk. Call 911 if he ever shows up (post RO). Consider having your work door locked with a door bell.

      Talk to other DV attorneys about how they handle these threats. Lots and lots of jobs put you in danger with crazy people. Judges, prosecutors, cops, PO’s deal with this stuff ALL the time. I understand if you don’t want to and that is okay but please don’t just abandon your client.

      • Blonde Lawyer :

        WOOOOOOPS. Reading comprehension fail. I see he is the one DEFENDING the stalking charge. Yes. Withdraw and consider getting a restraining order yourself. Dang. Ignore all my advice above. I thought you were helping someone get an RO and the other party was threatening you. My B.

      • I read this as her client is making the weird statements. She’s representing the person accused of stalking and now he’s displaying similar behavior toward her.

    • Seattleite :

      And, if you haven’t already, please read Gavin de Becker’s “The Gift of Fear.” STAT.

  11. Brooks Brothers :

    If anyone here really likes their suits / suiting separates, can you comment on how their fit runs compared to other places that have wool suits (so Talbots, J Crew, Theory)? I need a new suit and am wanting wool pieces if possible (otherwise, I think I’m going to get a Halogen suit even though it isn’t wool, b/c I can actually wear things like The Skirt and the Taylor pants).

    Thank you!

    • I wear the same size in Brooks Bros. and JCrew in skirts, slacks and jackets.

    • I wear *about* the same size suits in BB as I do in Talbots. But I generally end up trying on the various components of a suit (skirt, pants, dress, jacket) in six sizes: X, X petite, X-, X- petite, X+ and X+ petite until I find what fits just rights for that suit.

      Some math: X = my size. My actual size omitted based on comments here that people do not like hearing about actual sizes.

      • Are you me? I’m 5-4 with a short torso and this has been my life. It’s fine in stores but makes for mail order and return hell.

  12. Sorry if someone already posted about this, but I just got an email from my law school about the OnRamp Fellowship and thought it might be useful to any women returning to the legal workforce:

    http://onrampfellowship.com/

    The Fellowship helps place experienced women lawyers, who have taken a break from practicing law for one reason or another, in yearlong, paid training fellowships in law firms. This re-entry platform gives returning women lawyers a chance to broaden their legal experience, skills, and contacts while demonstrating their tremendous value in the marketplace.

    Four major firms – Baker Botts, Cooley, Hogan Lovells, and Sidley Austin – are offering Fellowships in 15 cities across the U.S. as part of the pilot program this year. New York, Washington, D.C., Palo Alto, San Francisco, Houston, Dallas, Los Angeles, and Chicago are among the cities where Fellowship positions are posted.

    The benefits to participating women lawyers include:

    A paid ($125,000, plus benefits), one-year training fellowship with a top law firm to gain additional legal experience, skills, and contacts;

    Unlimited, free access to online continuing legal education (CLE) courses;

    Training by specialists in negotiations, leadership, oral advocacy, project management, and business development; and

    One-on-one counseling from experienced legal-career coaches.

    Lawyers with three or more years of experience who have taken a hiatus of at least two years are eligible to apply. Applicants should have a strong interest in working for and advancing within a law firm environment.

    Applications are due March 7, 2014. Please visit http://www.OnRampFellowship.com to learn more or apply.

  13. Deep Anon :

    How do you keep going at work when you’re melting down inside, for reasons too personal to share? I’ve been dealing with an ugly situation involving past sexual abuse for some time now (sorry to anyone else for whom even this is triggering). I’ve mostly been able to keep it together on the surface and do at least the bare essentials at work, but more recently I’m in a tailspin and I just can’t seem to do even that. Any advice to get through this? Thanks.

    • Therapy. Really please get help, you shouldn’t have to go through this alone. At the risk of upsetting you further, I won’t include links, but there are a number of toll free hotlines that you can call and get connected.

      If you feel like you’re in danger of losing your job or your performance is so off, speak up now in general terms. Just let them know you’re dealing with a personal issue, you realize it’s impacting your work, you’re taking steps to correct it and appreciate their patience while you get back to your normal awesome work levels.

      Recognizing you’re in a tailspin is half the battle. Be kind to yourself and make your life as easy as possible.

      • Deep Anon :

        Thanks! Therapy hasn’t helped so far that I can tell, but I am doing it. I think that’s part of the problem – I feel like things should be getting better by now, and they’re just not. And I’m in a very macho field (think finance/law/VC) where showing vulnerability/weakness feels like career suicide. So I’m not sure what being kind to myself looks like in practical terms…

        • You might need a new therapist — seriously. I wasted lots of time with one who I wasn’t really clicking with. I didn’t realize it until I found one that I did click with after a few sessions and started noticing some progress. It was a pain to switch initially (having to go over all of the basics again), but it’s been so worth it.

          I’m sorry I don’t have any suggestions about what to do workwise.

        • I’ve been struggling to get my therapist to understand exactly this (re: the macho field). It makes no sense, and of course we want to believe that everyone is human and shows compassion, but showing weakness can be career suicide. I’ve been in a similar tailspin and I’m just trying to keep it together at work, and my therapist doesn’t understand why I can’t tell my bosses that I’m dealing with a personal problem.

        • Two parts…

          Be kind to yourself to me means automate your life. Bills on auto pay, set up healthy food delivery, house cleaners, happy movies, etc. You may already do this but if you don’t, definitely do. Anything that makes you happy that is good for you – yoga, kickboxing, etc. – do it. Visit friends, plan trips, etc.

          On the career issue, I totally hear you. If you can’t say anything, make small manageable lists at work. If you have to, go in on a weekend and then treat yourself to a nice lunch, etc so you get ahead. Also, ask yourself if you’re really actually getting behind and it’s noticeable or if you’re fixating on things going wrong as part of the tailspin. I don’t mean to be insensitive, but I definitely do this myself.

          I agree with everyone’s advice on a therapist; seriously if its not helping find someone else. Call a hotline and have them get you hooked up to someone ASAP. Call your primary care doctor.

          Finally, when in doubt please realize that you’re doing everything right. You’re pursuing help, you’re taking care of yourself, etc. and things take time. Repeat over and over again.

        • maybe you need a separate therapist to help with the career part of things and one for the trauma itself? I’m not sure if she is still around but we had a therapist as a member here, I’m sure someone can get you her contact info if you post your email address. she might be able to give you some advice about what to do with the therapist situation!

    • I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

      I hope you’re getting the care you need, whether that’s through a therapist or doctor. Having someone to talk to might help in part.

      Is there any way you can take a few days off or some vacation time? It might be what you need to give yourself some breathing room without having to worry about filing the latest TPS report by EOD.

    • post failure. see my response below.

    • I’m sorry to hear you’re going through that. I hope you’re working with a therapist, doctor, or finding some other way to get help. You might want to consider letting your doctor know it’s effecting your work, and look into the process for getting leave or some sort of grace with your work duties. You may not need to use it now, or ever, but it’s better to be prepared. If you do end up going through a period where you need to spend all your energy and time on taking care of yourself, the last thing you’ll want to do is go through getting it all documented then.

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      You could use the phrase “victim of a crime” when speaking with your employer. It shows it is totally beyond your control but doesn’t mention “sexual.” You could have been robbed or something.

    • Can you compartmentalize? Basically convince yourself that who you are at the workplace is a completely separate person from who you are privately. Like an actor going into the role “Ms. Deep Anon, the rising star of the office”. You can even pretend you are in a TV series.

      I’ve done that on a couple of occasions. If you are sorting out the situation anyways, it’s a-okay to give your mind a break during work. And if my mind has wandered down a dark path, I’ve been known to slap myself in the face to get back to the present. There’s something about the sharp sound and sudden pain that breaks the descent. I’ve heard you can keep a rubber band around your wrist and snap it to the same effect. Probably more discreet than smacking your own face.

      Anyways, you will get through this! Hugs and stiff upper lips!

    • I really like this post…

      http://captainawkward.com/2013/02/16/450-how-to-tighten-up-your-game-at-work-when-youre-depressed/

      I’ve been through a similar thing, and I definitely used “victim of a crime” as an explanation a few times. It worked. My coworkers don’t need to know what sort of crime. Take care…it can get better. <3.

  14. Money Ugh Followup :

    I just wanted to thank everyone for your words of wisdom in yesterday’s afternoon thread. I really, really appreciate all of these ideas — IRL I don’t have many places I can turn to for this kind of advice.

    This weekend is going to be Money Overhaul Weekend 2014. We’re looking in to both Mint and YNAB to decide which one might best suit our needs (or both!). We’re also going to do a review of our bills/expenses/etc. We usually do this annually or every six months, but I think we’re going to try to do them more often. Plus, we’re going to look into canceling a few cards, etc. to see if that’ll help.

    I also took to heart the suggestion that I’m *possibly* scary when I get angry. So last night I asked. He said that yep, he was worried about telling me when he realized what happened. He knew he had charged a few small expenses (like food, etc. — small purchases when he was short on ready cash), and had fully expected to pay it off immediately once he got paid again. He forgot. Then when he realized what happened, he was afraid to tell me because of my reaction. Then I found out, and it was even scarier for him. So, I apologized that I might not be the most receptive person to bad news. It’s something I definitely plan to work on.

    As far as how we got into this debt, trust me, I know it’s a big deal. It keeps me up at night. It haunts me. It’s shameful. It’s prevented us from doing stuff. And despite what others may perceive, we are diligently trying to tackle it. For instance, last year, we paid down $11,000. It’s not like we’re like, “hey, let’s rack up more because who cares!” This is a struggle when life hands you the unexpected just as you’re cruising along. The debt didn’t happen overnight and I knew how much he was bringing into our marriage when I met him and he knew about mine. And we’re both trying to figure a way out of it together without living an existence totally on bread and water. I admit, though, that we can get rid of more stuff and still be happy. Those things are next on the chopping block. And that’s why I came here for suggestions from you smart ladies — because I was running out of ideas and the anxiety levels were overrunning my anxiety meds!

    As for marriage counseling, that’s something we’d both be up for if it felt necessary. Right now, we both see our own therapists for other issues and I know I talk about our relationship in my private sessions. This has been a learning experience, for sure.

    Here’s hoping that this time next year, we’ll have knocked out another $11,000+ (or more!) off our debt and not have any surprise charges on credit cards.

    • Moonstone :

      I have to say it broke my heart thinking about your husband dealing with ill parents when he was so young. That’s the kind of thing that drives people into bankruptcy. I think you guys are doing a great job paying down debt.

    • Sydney Bristow :

      Good for you and good luck with the conversation this weekend. It sounds like you each know the things you need to work on individually and sometimes just recognizing that can be incredibly helpful. Good luck!

    • Meg Murry :

      Good for you for having a money chat. I would also suggest looking at a debt repayment spreadsheet like this one

      http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2008/08/26/free-debt-snowball-spreadsheet/

      And if H doesnt get paid in the summer, be sure to address that as well – the best laid monthly budget does no good if it isn’t sustainable for the whole year, and it seems like being out of money in the summer could be a trigger for falling back into bad habits like relying on credit cards.

      • That’s a great spreadsheet. I have some CC debt (ugh) due to getting hit with multiple emergency budget items in a row, on top of a grad school non-salary, and it was so motivating to see how much money I can save by really buckling down to pay it off sooner, rather than later…seriously though, I can count on one hand the number of times I haven’t paid off a CC balance in full before this on one hand. This is stressing me out! And I know it’s a comparatively miniscule amount of debt ($2k) but I just hate knowing that it’s hanging over my head, while not having either the savings or the income (only make around $800/month off my assistantship) to pay it off immediately!

    • It is NOT shameful to have had times of financial hardship in your life, especially if the hardship is undertaken to care for those whom you love and owe a responsibility to, as seems to be the case with your hubby and his parents.

      I really take away from your account that you and your hubby are on the same page on many important issues. You guys are lucky to have each other and I’m sure this episode, stressful as it is now, will soon seem like water under the bridge in terms of a long lifetime together.

  15. first: hugs. I’m sorry you’re having to go through that, ever.

    second: have you sought counseling? If not, I think that’s really the only way to help get it all together. If you can, take some personal time (more than an hour or two–take a week) to just see if you can get yourself into a rhythm of function. I suspect that it is going to be a long road to recovery, but you also have to earn a living.

    If you can trust your boss/supervisor, it may be worth just saying something like “I’m in the middle of a health crisis right now, and it is making it difficult for me to focus.” I can see where that would be a totally tricky move, exposing your vulnerability, and potentially coming off as an employee who can’t get her sh!t together. You know your office and your co-workers, though.

    Maybe try some brief periods throughout the day where you are away from your desk and your work, where you can take a few moments to do some deep breathing, take a walk, engage in a hobby? Maybe you can bring some kind of hobby with you to work, (knitting, for example) that you can turn to periodically during your lunch hour or breaks to redirect your focus and re-ground.

    But, big, big hugs.

  16. So, regular posting going anon here. How would you deal with being frustrated with your work, wanting out, but knowing it’s not the right time yet?

    • Anonattorney :

      Hmm, here’s what I would do:

      1) Set specific monthly networking goals to grease the wheels if you decide to leave (attend X amount of functions, meet Y amount of new potential contacts, check in with Z prior contacts)
      2) Start making pro/con lists of your current position so you know what you’re looking for in the next one
      3) Give yourself a max time that you will stay (another 9 months? 3 years?)
      4) Research job opportunities in your market or others

      Then have a good stress or frustration outlet in your real life.

    • I would find a project to occupy my time – something that I felt successful at that would help me feel better about the aspects of my life I could change. Maybe gardening, maybe train for a 5k, 10k or half marathon, maybe take up painting.

      I’d also make a list of all the things that have to happen before I can start looking to make the change (if there are things other than time that have to happen). Make them in small increments so you get that satisfying ‘checking one more thing off the list’ feeling.

      Finally, I’d probably reward myself for every week/month/whatever that I am able to hang on. Something small, but a real treat.

    • Whenever I am not having the best time at work, I look forward to the following – breaks, lunch, after work. I also treat myself to a special bagel on Friday mornings as a reward for making it through the week. Between those breaks/lunch/end of day, I try to really crank out work, using the breaks as rewards too.

    • I’ve been there too. What helped me was listening to a few audiobooks that helped me learn how to cope better at work (I even listened to them and took notes at work sometimes — it was a really slow job and helped me stay engaged). Take the perspective that even if you dislike the environment you are in, you can still learn from it and grow in the process. I listened to a wide variety of business and self-help books, some may or may not apply to you, but consider ones such as They Don’t Teach Corporate in College, Develop You Assertiveness, Working Identity, The Charisma Myth, What You Need to Know About Project Management and Dealing with Difficult People.

  17. Appropriate for work? :

    Hi guys, I’m starting a new job as a consultant in a big management consulting firm. Trying to pick out some bags that can work for work. It’ll be my carry-on “personal item” on the plane.

    I’m barely 5’1 so I need something that’s big enough for a laptop and papers but small enough not to overwhelm me.

    Do you think this bag will fit my needs? I like the neutral color, but is too… girly? Should I go with the black? The dimensions are 14 by 12.8 by 6 inches, 8.5-9 inch drop.

    http://www.reiss.com/us/womens/reiss-sale/bags/ines/neutral/

    • Wildkitten :

      I don’t think it’s too girly. Would the color get dirty too fast?

    • I like it. I also like that it’s not black even though black might be more practical. Assuming you live somewhere that you need to wear a winter coat (or that your consulting role will have you traveling somewhere cold) is the drop long enough to work when you have on a coat?

    • Also advise thinking about the weight of the bag. Constantly toting around a laptop through airports and other transits wrecks hell on your shoulders, and it makes it worse if your regular bag is a already half-pound or so of weight when empty because of fancy metal hardware, leather rather then nylon etc.

      I am a very heavy duty professional traveller and use a nylon tote from a functional-bag specialist, despite my love of style, for this very reason.

    • For what it’s worth, I’ve been a consultant for 5 years now and I went through a bunch of bags before landing on the Lo & Sons OG. Leather bags look nice, but they are really heavy. Ideally you want something that has a separate sleeve for your laptop and some pockets for phone(s), chargers, etc. I also really like having the sleeve that slips over the handle of your rolling bag. The TSA-approved bags that allow you to keep your laptop in the bag are nice, but I haven’t found any that are feminine. So, after much searching and testing I landed on the OG. I think girly is OK – no worries standing out from the sea of black ballistic nylon company-issued laptop bags!

    • When I was a management consultant, I carried a backpack and had a wristlet inside for going out to dinner or whatever. I started with a cute tote but as the years went by, I got a simple backpack. I wore it with a suit and I didn’t care if it was professional or not because I was always on the run.

  18. Coworker/Wedding Help! :

    How do I invite my coworkers (peers / other analysts, not senior people) to my wedding? They are what you might call “B List” because we have so many out of towners and I simply could not invite them in the first round until we got confirmed no’s. 7 total.

    Initial round of RSVPs are in and we have room for them (yay!), but I don’t know how to invite them given that (1) invite says RSVP deadline is next week; and, (2) I don’t want them to feel like I’m just using them to fill seats.

    We have a close, but casual, relationship. I almost feel like mailing them invites (first asking for personal addresses and second having them arrive 2 days before printed RSVP deadline) at home would be more awkward than asking them in some other fashion.

    I’m a girl, they’re mostly guys. But, they’re “buddies”. Is an e-mail like way, way too tacky?

    • Noooo you don’t b list people that is so tacky!! You don’t invite them at all. Jesus there has been a lot of questions about rude wedding behavior recently

      • I completely disagree. I think many people actually do several lists when they receive more RSVP’s than they initially anticipated. OP, I think an email would be fine!! You could say something like “Hey guys! Wanted to extend an invitation to you all to attend my wedding on [Insert date]. Would love to have you there if you’re available to celebrate! You’re more than welcome to bring a guest as well, just let me know if you can come and your guest’s name.”

        Something like that I think is fine!!

        • Do you know what an RSVP is? It’s not just a decline. When you receive more RSVPs than initially anticipated, you can’t invite even more people.

        • AttiredAttorney :

          Oh my goodness. I don’t think of myself as a mini Emily Post or anything, but I would be offended if I received an invitation to a wedding with an RSVP deadline a week away, and I would be incredibly offended if such invitation were extended via email.

    • Senior Attorney :

      How about handing them the invitations personally, and just telling them “I’m so happy — enough of my annoying out of town relatives respondend ‘no’ that I can invite the people I really want to celebrate with me, including you!”

      • Wildkitten :

        + 1 This sounds good to me.

      • I second this. I wouldn’t be offended at all. Going through the wedding planning process right now has made me realize how tough the guest list situation can be – you unfortunately can’t fit EVERYONE you want in the first round most of the time.

        That being said, I would not invite them without giving them +1′s.

      • Stormborn :

        This would be almost friendship ending. Honestly. This is so insulting. People understand limited guestlists. That is a fact of life. You do not invite people in second rounds.

        • anonymama :

          I think most of my friends would be understanding of this, particularly work friends who aren’t super-close, but would enjoy going to the wedding. I can’t imagine anyone I know thinking something like this would be friendship-ending. That just sounds so… dramatic. I think there were a couple people at my wedding who were fairly new, casual friends, who we invited at the last minute because we happened to be discussing the wedding with them, and they had other friends going. It was more like, “We’re having a big party, it would be fun if you came!” than like “oooh (snotty voice), you’re the b-listers, we don’t really care about you.” If people understand limited wedding guest lists, why wouldn’t they understand this?

      • Anonattorney :

        Sometimes I just get really confused by all the wedding etiquette. I feel like it’s become completely severed from reality.

        This is not a friendship ending issue. People have limited guest spots for weddings because they are way way too expensive. Family often take up too many of those spots. Family often can’t come, especially if they live out of town. You can’t know how many out-of-town family are going to come to a wedding, so you have to invite all of them and see what happens. Let’s say half of out of town family RSVP’s “no.” You can now invite a bunch of people that you really wanted to invite in the first place, but couldn’t because Aunt Jane takes precedent (even though you only see Aunt Jane once every 3 years). So, you invite people who are your friends, who are in town, and who you know would enjoy a good free party.

        How is that insulting?

        • +1. I’ve never planned a wedding, but I just do not even get the need for all the drama around this. I got what I realize in retrospect was a B-list wedding invitation last year, and I wouldn’t even imagine being offended by that–I know my friends have, IDK, aunts and since-childhood friends that would take precedence. But when I got the invite, I was just happy to have the opportunity to go celebrate my friends’ wedding!

          Which is really what I think it should come down to. If you are happy to go celebrate your friends’ marriage, go. If you are so offended by the idea that people have budgets and event spaces have limited chairs that you can’t handle the idea of being a second-round guest, send your regrets. The end.

          • Stormborn :

            There is absolutely no problem with having a small or limited guest list. But if you B list you are saying that your vision and your other guests are more important. If you want a wedding of 125/plate, you have to limit your guest list. If you have the same budget but want 200 guests, you are going to have a less fancy wedding. B listing is saying I want the big wedding, and I want presents, but I don’t want to put my guests first. I have sent presents, cards, and well wishes to friends when I have not been invited. No problem not being invited. But yes. problem with the oh come now that other people can’t make it. It’s flat out rude- you don’t tier your guests. I just don’t understand treating your guests that way.

          • Stormborn, have you had a wedding? I only ask because your logic assumes that 100% of invited guests will attend when in reality that’s far from the truth. Every situation varies, for example, at my wedding we had about a 65% yield from our first round of invitations. It was a lot lower than we expected. Of course we invited more people after that because our (already very generous) budget allowed for more than just 65% of “A list” guests. It’s like if you have a budget and a venue for 200 people and only 100 RSVP yes, why wouldn’t you invite more people at that point? It doesn’t mean you want more gifts, it means that you want as many of your loved ones there as your budget and venue will allow.

          • + 1000 to this: “Sometimes I just get really confused by all the wedding etiquette. I feel like it’s become completely severed from reality.” And also +1000 to this: “If you are happy to go celebrate your friends’ marriage, go. If you are so offended by the idea that people have budgets and event spaces have limited chairs that you can’t handle the idea of being a second-round guest, send your regrets. The end.”

            As a GUEST, my friends’ weddings are not about me. It is THEIR choice as to how they want to spend THEIR day.

          • Stormborn :

            Having it in 8 months. And no, it doesn’t assume 100% attendance. I wouldn’t invite more people at that point because its extremely rude. I made my guest list first. If people can’t make it its fine. If you are trying to fill your venue, you are doing something wrong. To anon, I completely disagree with the “Its their day” Its your day if you elope. I cant imagine inviting guests, people that I love, and then treating them rudely.

          • @Anon E: etiquette aside, I don’t understand this concept of inviting more people after people to decline to get to 100% of your budget/space. That makes no sense to me. You choose who you want to come to your wedding based on who you want with you on your big day and then you figure out what kind of wedding you can have based on how many $$ you have available and how many you expect to attend. It’s not like its a tragedy to come in under budget! But if you’re determined to use your whole budget, there are several things you can do: 1) you can figure out a rough % of people likely to accept, using Google and wedding planning websites and personal factors like average distance guests have to travel (for the record, 65% is a higher than average acceptance rate, so you actually did not receive a surprisingly low acceptance rate), 2) you can send save the dates to a small group of people and based on response rate to save the dates, determine whether you want to add anyone at the invite stage (obviously you can’t remove anyone who got a save-the-date from the list) – I think this is a little tacky but not nearly as offensive as two rounds of invitations (you could also just ask some people if they will plan to come – its probably ok to ask most family members), 3) you can hold off on other wedding planning aspects like flowers, and depending on how many people RSVP, use extra money or lack thereof accordingly. There are a lot of “extras” you can add less than month out if you have a lower than expected response rate, and you’d be surprised how many people will bring additional guests (that’s a whole other etiquette issue though). The idea that you would invite more people just to fill every seat is totally crazy to me.

        • Etiquette is about treating people politely and with respect. There is nothing divorced from reality about that. And anon e you literally described the definition of seat fillers- you wanted people to fill your seats.

      • Ehhhhhhh…I would be kind of offended by this.

        Then again, they’re dudes. So they may not care.

      • +1 to this. I was invited to a co-workers wedding like this before. She and I didn’t work closely when she sent out invites, but we had been moved to the same project and started to become closer as it neared the wedding. She “b List” invited me by bringing the invitation to my office, explaining that they had space at the wedding and she hoped I wasn’t offended by the last minute invite. I wasn’t, and went, and had a great time. She is one of my best friends now many years later and we have both remarked we are so glad she chose to invite me instead of me missing that day because of etiquette.

    • You don’t invite them. It would be so obvious that they were on your B list and that’s just really rude. I think you’d come off as a gift grubber. I understand the need to control guest lists/RSVP rates, but a B list is tacky and can be very risky. You don’t have enough time to properly invite them or give them enough time to RSVP. It comes off like you’re filling seats or sticking your hand out for a gift. Bad form.

      I’d be tempted to RSVP and then not show just so you had to pay for my dinner. Admittedly bad behavior, but given that I was on your B list, you made that bed.

      • Anonymous :

        +1 to feeling like a seat filler. Your wedding is not the Oscars.

        • I mean…do y’all not have friends who you sincerely enjoy, and would like to celebrate with, but who could, conceivably, have to give way to Great Aunt Edna and Uncle Louis? I don’t think the OP is only considering asking her work-friends because she wants them to be seat fillers–I got the impression that she wants to invite them because she enjoys their company and would like them to help her celebrate her marriage, since Great Aunt Edna and Uncle Louis aren’t feeling up to flying in from Portland (or whatever).

    • Do you also have room for their significant others? If not, I would not invite the coworkers at all.

      • +1 to this, I am not in the offended by any wedding invite camp, but I really appreciate a +1 and have been a little annoyed when coworkers get last minute invites but my SO of 5 years is excluded

    • I don’t see any reason why they’d be offended, that’s how all of my coworkers have rolled and that’s how I plan to. I doubt they’re under the illusion that they’re your bff’s, but know that you’re buddies and it would be fun to go. Everyone understands that weddings have limited seating. I also would not invite their spouses if they’re a group who socializes with each other after hours, unless they’re older coworkers.

    • Anonymous :

      Is the RSVP date printed on the invite itself? That seems weird to me. I’ve always seen the date only printed on the separate RSVP card, which allows you to remove the original card and either sub it with a new one with a date that gives them more time.

      • Anonymous :

        Forgot the rest of my “either-or”–the second route you could go instead of subbing in new RSVP cards is to just mail the invites without RSVP cards and just tell them at work that their invites will be arriving, and that you’re going digital with RSVPs so they can e-mail you anytime before X date. Don’t actually hand deliver the invites–while I disagree with the above that a B list is “tacky” I don’t think you should be super obvious that they are on it, and hand delivering invites says that.

    • Wildkitten :

      I feel bad for all the offended people. They’re the ones who don’t get the “Hey I have front row seats for the Rolling Stones and my boyfriend has the flu, can you come?” invites.

      • Anonattorney :

        Me too. I’ve gone to at least one wedding where I knew I was a last-minute invite, but I actually thought it was great! I never expected to be invited in the first place, and the bride and I were hanging out one day and she just told me that she had some people back out and she had an extra two seats. I think it was a spur-of-the-moment invite on her part, and I wasn’t offended at all.

        We didn’t know many people there and didn’t stay very long after dinner, but it was still nice to see her happy. We are also much closer now than we were before, probably in part because I was a part of her big day.

      • Well, a wedding carries all kinds of weight that a Rolling Stones concert doesn’t. Weddings are important life events in a way that concerts generally aren’t (not the knock the Stones); being asked to a wedding is generally indicative of a certain degree of emotional relationship, and so realizing that you were a second choice can cause you to realize a degree of asymmetry in the relationship.

        In addition, a wedding guest is generally expected to give a gift, which means there’s an obligation on the guest (yes, gifts are optional, but the social expectation is strong) as a result of attendance.

        That said, I think the OP said all of these potential invitees are guys, and guys are less likely to think about this stuff, I think.

      • I once got invited to the actual Oscars this way. It was 4000% better than any of the millions of weddings I’ve attended (usually solo, because people don’t “have room” to invite +1s who aren’t spouses.)

        I have no opinion on the b list thing, though.

      • Me too. Plus, I’d really feel like I was on the C list if a friend got a bunch of declines and still didn’t invite me. Goes to show you can’t win. Have a B list, C list, invite coworkers, whatever, someone will be pissed off at you.

      • Wildkitten wins this thread. Anyone who takes offense at anything to do with someone else’s wedding is not someone I want to be at my wedding anyway! Good grief! If someone is offended, they can politely decline — but I do believe Emily Post would say that it would be extremely bad manners to tell the person why you are declining (sarcasm intended).

    • Someone Who Has Read the Updated Emily Post :

      While having staggered invitation lists, i.e. an A list and a B list, have become more acceptable in recent years, they must be handled very differently from what you’ve proposed here. I think people do understand that venues have headcount limits and certain family members, friends, etc. may take precedence in the first round (the A list), they may decline for whatever reason. It’s not unreasonable or unacceptable to have a B list. However, you should have sent the first round of invitations out 3 months prior to your RSVP date. Then sent your B list invitations a month prior to that same date. There’s much less chance of insulting someone or making them feel like less special.

      Given the short time frame you seem to have here, inviting these colleagues seems silly. They weren’t good enough to make the first list or even a true B list. They really are seat fillers at this point. You indicate that you have a casual relationship with them. Would you stay friendly if you changed jobs? I don’t understand why you’d invite a casual acquaintance to a wedding and can only conclude that you don’t want empty seats, haven’t met your minimum and/or you’re looking for a gift. Maybe none of that’s true but that’s how I interpret it.

      To the commenter who compared a wedding to a concert — that’s silly. A last minute invitation to a concert, theater tickets, etc. is not in the same ballpark as a last minute wedding invitation.

      • Wildkitten :

        I don’t understand this. Why should you send B-List tickets before your A-list is due? Wouldn’t it make more sense to set the RSVP deadline earlier so you get your A-list answers before you’d need to invite the B-List?

        • Because only a certain percentage respond “yes” to the invitation. There is enough time to send second list invites out. I personally would not do this. I think it’s rude. I figured out my guest list, chose a venue that could accommodate up to that number and had about an 90% attendance rate. I could gauge ahead of time because I planned my guest list carefully. I did not include “not-so-close friends” or work colleagues.

    • I have very few hard and fast etiquette rules but having a “B list” at a wedding is just a huge no-no to me. I realize its becoming increasingly common but I find it incredibly offensive & I would never go to a wedding or send a gift where I was obviously invited as a B list guest. +1 to the person who said ‘your wedding is not the Oscars.’ There’s no way you can tell someone that they didn’t make your first guest list cut, but now your top choice people have rejected you, so you’d like to give them the opportunity to attend without seeming rude and condescending and like you think your event is some exclusive party they’re just dying to go to.

      In my opinion, there’s one and only one (marginally) acceptable way to have a B list – and that is to send a save-the-date to a smaller group of people. Many people will informally RSVP after receiving a save-the-date. So if enough people tell you they are not coming at that point, you can send invites to a larger group of people. This works best if you exclude whole groups (e.g. coworkers) from the save-the-date process as opposed to sending save-the-dates to some people in a group of people that you may potentially invite and not others.

      PS. Not aimed at the OP, but for weddings in general, I HATE when people say “We wanted you, but we didn’t have space to invite you!” Unless you are the President of the US or something, there’s always a way to make space for everybody you care about – it just involves choosing a different venue or cutting something else from your budget. So basically you’re saying you prioritize the venue of your dreams or your flowers or whatever over this person.

      • Stormborn :

        Exactly- especially to the last paragraph. You make your guest list first and see how many people you have that you want to invite. THEN you look at venues within your budget for that many. If that is a brunch reception vs an all night party, that thats fine. B listing declares not only do I care about other guests more than you, but I also cared about the “vision” more than inviting you. To wildkitten- don’t feel bad for me. I would never want to treat my friends rudely or offend them. I’m giving the advice I am to the OP as the host- not as a guest. Its not about whether I personally would be offended, but I am advising the OP not to do something so rude to people she likes.

      • Totally disagree with paragraph 2, some people have big families and even on big budgets can’t make room for the people they really want. Plus you have to consider his family/side too. I envy people who can make room but they usually don’t have big families.

    • To all the commenters who are against the idea: is the problem with a B-list the gift-grabbiness, which could be ameliorated by including a firm instruction to the B-list not to bring presents, or is it the idea that you didn’t like these people enough to invite them until someone else turned you down (and is that really worse than sending the message that you don’t like them enough to invite them at all?)?

      I should probably make it clear that I’m asking out of genuine curiosity, not to antagonize anyone. In my area/culture, the typical wedding reception involves inviting everyone you know (including 100+ extended family members, your entire local religious congregation, and everyone you work with) to come to a gymnasium filled with metal folding tables and chairs, where they are supposed to shake your hand, make a joke about the wedding night and/or compliment the bride’s dress, drop off a $25 gift, and enjoy the dessert buffet put together by the bride’s mom and aunts. Things are changing (I think Pinterest actually has a lot to do with that) but I’ve still never been to a wedding with a sit-down dinner, live music, or a dress code fancier than “church clothes.”

      • Anonymous :

        A little bit of both. 1) You can never actually say don’t give gifts. Really no one should expect gifts, so to say dont bring a gift is implying you thought they should of in the first place. I realize that’s a little old fashion for people, but 2) people will still bring a gift. I physically could not not send a gift if invited to the wedding. And I love giving gifts! So I am not complaining about it. But there really is no way to get rid of that gift expectation.

        And in column b is what’s discussed above- there is always room for everyone. It just requires sacrifices to your budget. If your not willing to make those sacrifices, you can’t have it both ways and give someone a last minute seat filler invite.

      • Wildkitten :

        I don’t get it. Don’t invite people because it’s gift-grubbing and don’t tell people to not give gifts because it’s gift-grubbing? What? It’s not gift-grubbing because gifts aren’t required.

        • Anonymous :

          Nope- just dont invite people last minute because its gift-grubbing.

          • Wildkitten :

            Again, I don’t get it. It’s better to not be invited at all than to be invited in the second round? Is there any other event where those same rules apply?

          • Yes. We understand you don’t get it. And most social events? You don’t invite people to events in tiers. You wouldn’t do it for a birthday party either. It’s fine to have budget restraints- it’s not fine to use people as seat fillers. It’s fine to not get someone a birthday present. It’s not fine to give Kristin one with a tag that says “happy birthday Ralph”

    • I didn’t have a ‘B’ list because I listened to the etiquette books and wish I had thrown it out the freaking window.

      We had a specific budget and also purposefully chose to have a more intimately sized wedding. Basically, the way it broke out it was 50% family, 20% our parents’ friends, 10% family friends and basically 10% of the guest list were our friends.

      I wish, oh how I wish, that I had just said ‘scr3w it’ when so many invites rolled in without plus-ones and when the out of town relatives cancelled on short notice and just invited our friends. There are people I really wish had come to hang out and celebrate with us who we weren’t able to invite- especially people who we met in the city we moved to 6 mos. prior to our wedding who were new friends at the time but very good friends now.

      I vote the response you do what you want- people will judge you either way and be unhappy either way. At least make sure you’re happy.

      • The solution is not to throw out the etiquette books. It’s to invite the people you want there in the first place. It’s not going to make you happy if you end up making the people you love feel like an after thought

        • Yes, this. I’m always flabbergasted when people say “only 10% of the wedding was our friends.” You’re doing it wrong – invite who YOU want. In my case, probably only 1/3-1/2 our wedding guests were our classmates, but at least one of the two of us knew and liked every family member and family friend that was invited and we didn’t have to cut out any friends we cared about, or we would have had a less fancy wedding.

          • You’re probably right- I really do think I’d be better at that whole wedding thing if I’d gotten to do it twice. I did end up with an awesome marriage to a really amazing human being, which was what the two of us were really more focused on.

            To the above commenter (and I genuinely mean this in a non-sarcastic, non-snarky way)- it was worth it to me to minimize conflict in relation to the family and as such, we did what we did guest-wise.

            My advice still stands to the OP- do what you want. Make your choices and stick by them. There is literally zero situation where everyone will be 100% happy, so at least make yourselves happy.

        • This solution really doesn’t work for a lot of people. It’s not just your party, it you and your spouse and in a lot of cases both sets of families with their own dynamics where you can’t just not invite your aunts/uncles/cousins because you’d rather have your friends there. Venues are limited, budgets are limited, and it’s often not the difference between cutting flowers and having 10 more people. Seriously great for people who feel no obligation to their family or their spouses family to have whoever they want but for many people that’s totally unrealistic.

        • PS – the people I love are a lot more understanding of what goes into planning a wedding and would never be offended by a “b list” invite because it isn’t really a b-list at all, it’s the couples A-list that is hindered by other factors.

    • The violence of the anti- posts baffles me a bit because round-2 invites seem utterly standard with the young folks in the various offices I’ve worked in.

      I know this because the bride or even more typically, the groom often takes a minute before or after the start of a meeting to say “hey we’re getting married 2 weeks for now and we’d love for the team to join us – we thought we had to keep it to mostly family at first but now it looks like we’ll be able to have more friends !” There is then a flurry of excitement and congratulations and the cards get passed round on the spot or later in the day. Easy peasy.

      • Maybe its a geographic thing? I’m in my 20s and I literally do not know a single person that has done this 2 rounds of invites thing (that I know of). Nobody in my office invites coworkers to weddings though.

      • Are you really that close to your co-workers? I have great relationships with mine, but we don’t hang out together outside of work (and work events) and I’m sure we will not be in touch five years after we work together. I have no desire to go to their wedding – I’m happy for them, but I just don’t find weddings that fun. Nor would I want them at mine, I don’t expect to be in touch with them for the rest of my life.

        If I got invited to a coworkers wedding in this way, I would really feel like a seat filler. It wasn’t that they really wanted me present or they would have invited me earlier. They just figured it was a way around an open seat and a chance for another gift.

        • Maybe you’re not friends with your co-workers, but a lot of people are.

          • And we may just define “friend” differently.

            Based on conversations with my friends, I suspect I’m as close to my co-workers as the average person but I’m more limited in who I will call a friend.

      • Anon for this :

        Have to chime in because I am also baffled by the many anti-B list responses. I’m in the middle of planning my wedding, and this was exactly my plan until we opted for a small destination wedding. My dream venue in NY could only fit 125 people, and with our large (difficult) families, there was no way we couldn’t invite immediate family in favor of friends and co-workers. Just immediate family and close friends had us at 150. Since we both expected a not insignificant number of family members to decline to come to NY, we would then invite not-so-close friends and co-workers to the wedding as seats became available. I mentioned it to several friends, and discussed it with parents and the wedding planner, and no one was offended! In fact, pretty sure I’ve been a B-list invite to a few friends/co-workers’ weddings, and I was neither offended nor thought it was gift-grabby. I was thrilled to have a chance to be there for them! It just boggles my mind that someone would hone in on the fact that they were on a second tier of invitees, than the fact that the bride/groom actually care enough about you that they want you to share their special day with them.

        And also disagree that this is limited to weddings. My law firm routinely buys tables at various events (at +$1000 per plate), and we use a tiered system for invites. First clients and partners. Then senior associates, then juniors. When I was a junior associate, I never felt like a seat-filler or a second class citizen because I was routinely asked to go to these events day-of. Always had a blast and enjoyed myself. Now I am the one planning these things, and no one objects to the tiered system.

        OP, as you’ve seen, some people will be offended no matter what, so do what will make you happy. Hopefully your friends are mature enough to be thrilled instead of offended!

        • Anonymous :

          Im baffled by the “people will be offended no matter what.” No, they wont, if you have manners and treat them with such.

          Also “My dream venue in NY” ding ding ding. Thats why its rude. You care about your dream venue more than your friends.

          • Anon for this :

            There is nothing rude or ill mannered about a B list. If you send timely B invites or pick up the phone and have an honest conversation with your B guests, they’ll understand.

            Frankly, if I had someone on my list who felt outright offended at discovering they were a part of a B list, I would question whether that person was truly mature enough or compatible with my values, to be a part of my big day. Most adults understand the challenges and limitations involved with putting on a wedding and and would never hold it against you. And yes, it’s my wedding, and I care more about having a dream venue (whether in NY or my destination) than accommodating ALL of my friends and coworkers.
            I’m fine with being selfish (and so far, no one is holding that against me).

          • Anon-for-this 4:14: “my big day” sums it all up. It’s all about the bridezilla. Weddings used to be a celebration with family and close friends. They were social events hosted by the family and etiquette meant you ensured YOUR GUESTS were having a good time. Now it’s morphed into this ridiculous over-wrought me me me “my big day” self centered disgusting display. It’s a shame that something special and meaningful has been perverted into some self absorbed navel gazing.

          • Anon 4:14, I totally agree with you. Spot on.

        • You don’t invite “not-so-close friends” to your wedding. Unless you want more gifts. What is so hard about this concept?!?

          • +1000! I guess that’s why I don’t get inviting co-workers. They are “friends” in the sense that we talk about random things, get lunch together, discuss buying homes, ect. But I would never spill my guts to them or talk about family problems. I suspect that the vast majority of the relationships will not survive when we are no longer in daily contact as a result of working together. I only want people with whom I’m really close at my wedding.

            But I guess I will freely admit that I may be a one-off in that. My dream wedding is on a beach with only about 30 people – immediate family and friends who have lasted over +10 years. And I could easily be convinced to limit it to immediate family. I just don’t want a big party with everyone I’ve ever met

          • I guess everyone’s different, but I personally do not see the “invite more-casual friend” –> MUST BE GREEDY GIFT GRAB! Is there actually no space for “Hey person! I like you! We are not Best Friends Forever, but I enjoy your company and respect you as a human, so I would love it if you could celebrate this life event with me!” I guess my personal motto is more “assume positive intentions” in interpersonal interactions. I feel like, for me personally, that is just such a more pleasant way to live my life, than looking for ways to be offended and unhappy.

            Also, the more I read about/am involved with weddings, the more I really feel as if you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Even in this thread, I can see opposing “You only had 10% of your guest list be made up your friends? SHAME” and “You think this is your special day? BRIDEZILLA,” impulses. Seriously, how is anyone supposed to navigate this minefield? I’ve always looked forward to my hypothetical future wedding as an excuse to throw a great party for the people who matter to me, to celebrate an important life commitment to my hypothetical future life partner…but all this just makes me want to elope.

          • Rural Juror :

            Depends on the gift and the wedding cost. For my location, wedding gifts are typically in the $100 range (from a couple). At my wedding the meals and drinks cost more than double that. So by inviting more people it wasn’t a gift grab, rather I ended up spending more money (which I was happy to do for anyone I invited, because I wanted them to share in the day).

          • +1 to emeralds. There’s no way the OP (or other brides that support the concept of a B list) will make everyone happy. Just the mere mention of the B list, or for crying out loud, using the words “my big day” has resulted in PPs being called “bridezillas”, “rude”, “ill mannered”, “indecent”, “ridiculous”, “self centered”, “self absorbed”, “gift grabby” and (my personal favorite) “disgusting”. I’m truly flabbergasted. I wish I had the freedom to disregard my parents and my fiance’s parents wishes and understanding of proper etiquette, or an unlimited budget, so I could actually invite my friends and not my racist uncle or ex-convict cousin. Alas, I do have a limited budget (a generous one, my guests will be well taken care of) and I’m choosing to make my mom and FML happy by inviting family across the board (uncles, cousins, children, with +1s) without making exceptions. That leaves me with a limited number of invites for friends (again, with their +1s) and I have to draw the line here. I’m following modern wedding etiquette, as a PP mentioned, and doing staggered invites, and will send the B list invites as the declines from the A list come in, when plenty of time (months in fact) for people to make plans. At what point am I being self centered or rude? I’m choosing to put family ahead of some of my friends (all of whom I expect understand and would be supportive). As for the gift grabby accusations, I choose to believe my friends know me we’ll enough to understand that I’m not inviting them because I’m looking to score one more gift, but because I care about them and would love to celebrate with them on that day.

        • I think that it’s because there’s a disconnect between “the bride and groom care enough about you enough to want you to share their special day” and “when we were inviting our first choice people, we didn’t include you, but now we have room.” If you’re in the b-list, you were, necessarily, not someone the bride and groom cared about enough to include when they had to decide who they had room for.

    • Be careful about inviting too many guys to your wedding. Even if they were just as you say, “buddies” if you were at all a party girl, you could be sowing the seeds of insecurity with your husband, and he will always wonder how far you and your “buddies” went when you were out partying with them. Almost no one is chaste anymore before marriage, but you don’t want to do anything to advance a theory that you were the neighborhood spunk receptacle for a bunch of “buddies” in your premarital years. It will always come back to haunt you every time your husband gets into an argument with you — even while watching hunks on TV you can get into an argument where your past history is rehashed ad nauseum. Just a word to the wise.

    • save the dates :

      This is why we did save-the-dates; it gave people the chance to let us know they wouldn’t be able to make it before invitations went out so we were able to invite more friends than we expected

      • Clementine :

        Man, that’s awesome!

        I wish my wedding guests (particularly my husband’s extended family…) had been this courteous.

        • Save the dates, I may be too late for you to see this but — Did you actually ask for a response to the Save the Date that prompted them to respond in the negative, or did they just have the good foresight to do so? I ask only because it seems like a great way to figure out if you can invite more, but I’m not sure if it’s rude to ask for “regrets only” or something like that on a save the date. I have a feeling it is.

  19. Anonattorney :

    One more random question for the day:

    I am a mid-level associate. I do a lot of work for one partner, although I am not assigned to work specifically for him. We just get along very well: same tastes in restaurants, movies, etc. I get along with his wife whenever we see each other at events, and we have done a ladies golf outing together. She is probably the most-fun person I’ve met recently. He and his wife are about 15 years older than me and my husband.

    Would it be weird for me to invite them to dinner either at a restaurant or at my house? I feel like it would be weird.

    • Woods-comma-Elle :

      I feel like you answered your own question. Conceptually, it isn’t necessarily weird if you have a good relationship, but if you already feel like it would be weird beforehand, then maybe it isn’t the right way to go. It’s also a ‘know your firm’ kind of thing.

      (Etiquette-wise, if etiquette floats your boat, I suppose because he is the more senior, you should wait for him to reach out to do something social with you guys.)

    • Since an invitation to dinner feels weird, maybe the middle ground would be to invite them the next time you have a gathering – a brunch, a summer barbeque or some such – and decide from there whether a 2-couples outing would feel right ?

      Also make sure you communicate your expectations to your husband so that he can be an effective co-host with you – are these folks intended to be interesting new friends for you both ? Or are you bringing the boss home for dinner ?

      On their being 15 years older, I would say that learning to make friends and socialize across age groups is part of being a grown-up. Always confining yourself to with your gang from school, your office peers, the parents at yr kids’ school etc etc is self-limiting.

    • MissDisplaced :

      I’m no expert on this, but somehow asking them do dinner feels a bit, well… suck up (even though you’re not intending it to be). And if I’m thinking that, imagine what your office mates would think?

      Be aware also that many firms have unwritten rules about fraternization between senior and lower level associates, because it has potential to become a minefield. I would not invite them for a social dinner, unless it is something where you are inviting the entire office (like a picnic, barbecue, etc.) OR unless they reach out to you first with an invitation.

      This may not mean you can’t develop a social relationship with his wife, provided she does not also work at the same firm. If you are interested in the same activities (fundraising, volunteering, sports, etc.) it may be fine to reach out to her and let her know of your interest in being included along with her other friends. Just be aware that this friendship has a potential for pitfalls as well. Anything you say or do will get back to your “bosses” at the office and they will know at least some of your personal and private business; and vice-versa. But if you’re ok with that, this woman certainly could become a valued friend.

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