Wednesday’s Workwear Report: Burnout Shell Top

402 Comments

1. Talk to me about mild bunions. I have one foot that seems to be developing one. I stopped wearing heels before the shut down. I put on toe spacers for 5 minutes at night. Do those bunion specific splits to wear all night work? What else works to slow or stop the progression of a bunion? Thanks!

   1. I have bunions on both feet. I wear a toe spacer (Zentoes, on amazon, the kind that loops around your second toe) all day every day if I am doing any walking around whatsoever. I also switched to PowerStep insoles (the protech kind, I get them from my podiatrist) and wear those with all of my shoes. If the shoes can’t handle the insole, I don’t wear them (exception for Rothy’s or other flats or sandals, those are usually OK for the bunions). I also wear Altra sneakers which have a wider toe box. You may have to go up in width, I need a wide now for most shoes except sneakers (exception for shoes that run a bit wider – Sorel for example).

   2. Bunions are mostly genetics – odds are good they’re coming for you. Try to avoid pointy toes, shoes that don’t fit well, or very high heels. Spend more on a few good pairs of shoes.

      I have pretty bad ones now – I also wear toe spacers all day every day – and I did my best to avoid them and still got them.

   3. I have 2 bunions and it is hereditary because I always wore sensible shoes and even had overnight spacers for a period.
      I was terrified of those debilitating bunion surgeries and couldn’t afford to get off of work. I did a lot of research and found a minimally invasive procedure in London
      Few months ago, I underwent keyhole bunionectomy on my worse foot. I could wobble after few days and now a few months later, I am almost back to full mobility.

   4. One thing that really helps my bunions is yoga. All that rolling back and forth off your toes in chaturanga must stretch out the tendons or something.

   5. I swear by the silicon pads from Dr. Frederick’s, which I’ve only seen on A*zon. I use them for tailor’s bunions, not regular bunions, but they have greatly reduced the pain for me.

2. Elizabeth, I love the Talbot’s top! I think that I can wear this at work, even tho it is sleveless, as the arm openings are relatively tight, so Frank will not be able to see much, particularly when I wear a bra. I also prefer light colors as it gets hot in NYC in the Summer and I love to go out and get Vitamin D from the Sun. I just read an article that Vitamin D may help us with Covid 19, and some recommend we get at least 1000-2000 mg of Vitamin D daily. Dad sent me some capsules that are 5000 mg of Vitamin D and told me to take 1 daily in the morning, even if I do go outside for sun @ lunch. I recommend the HIVE look into it, b/c Web MD says you can only get too much if you do more then 50,000 mg per day, so 5,000 mg per day is not a big deal.

3. Shopping help please? When I go back to the office, I’ll be starting a new job with a significant promotion and want to up my work jewelry to look more executive. Gvt office. I’d love to buy some necklaces that can elevate an outfit on etsy. Any suggestions of etsy sellers to check out? Thanks!

   1. Kanye East has a shop -geegaws and gimcracks, with gorgeous earrings and necklaces. The earrings look much more $$ than they are, and I have an older double strand grey freshwater pearl necklace from her that I wear constantly and people always think it is south seas pearls (very Pelosi-esque)
      https://www.etsy.com/shop/gewgaws?ref=simple-shop-header-name&listing_id=782836687

      1. We haven’t seen Kanye East around here in a while!

      2. Ooooh! I have some of her pieces that I haven’t worn in a while. I need to get them out and clean them up and start wearing them again, now that I can.

   2. I had a Rocksbox subscription for awhile that I loved. You pay a monthly fee, get three pieces at a time to wear, if you love them you can buy them and your monthly fee is deducted from the cost of the piece. I bought a bunch of new jewelry that way and recently cancelled my subscription because I had so much. If someone here has an active membership, they can give you a code for a free month too.

4. Any Canadians working in the US here? I found out recently that my employer wants me to WFH until fall. So I can go back to Canada and work from there. But I’m worried that I might not be able to come back to the US when WFH ends. Canadians are allowed to go back to Canada and are not subject to the essential travel ban. But I’m on a work visa in the US, and my job is not in medicine. Even if it’s ok, I hear that the US border officers (especially the ones for driving across the border) tend to be really arbitrary in applying immigration standards.

   1. If travel restrictions are tightened when the second wave hits this summer or fall, where would you rather be stuck–where you are now, or in Canada? If you got sick, where would you want to be? Those answers will tell you whether to go or to stay.

   2. Just to clarify your question, are you someone who lives in the US while working here? There are some people that cross the border daily for work and it sounds like that is not your situation, right?

      1. Right, I don’t need to cross the border on a daily basis. I work in NY and my family is in Ontario.

   3. My neighbor (SEUS) is Canadian. WFH but goes to large commercial construction sites throughout the SEUS periodically.

   4. Make sure that working in Canada will not affect your visa status. If not, I’d have been in Canada yesterday. Have you seen this place?
      I will say, given this administration, if you are a POC, even as a Canadian they might hassle you. But 90% likelihood you’ll be fine.

   5. I am! What work visa status are you on?

      Our immigration experts provided an update last week, and the general guidance was that you will be allowed back into the US as long as all of your visa paperwork is in order. This guidance was given in regard to H1B visas.

      Also note that the border closures are only in effect at land crossings, and do not apply to air crossings. So if in doubt, you should fly in.

   6. I think it depends on your status and for how long you this might last. TNs are very volatile and arbitrary but H1B/GC less so. If you anticipate wanting to apply for a more permanent status in the future, time spent out of the US will be taken into consideration. It’s probably very province-specific but you may have a waiting period prior to being eligible for health insurance. There may be some implications about income tax at the provincial level as well but seeing how the Canadian pesos is behaving maybe it won’t be that bad on your USD salary.

   7. Does your employer not have policies about where you can be located to wfh? Mine (large national medical org) requires you to be located in a state we have licensure. Another country would not fly in part because organization would not want any unclear tax liability.

5. I came too late to the discussion to participate yesterday, but I noticed that some people suggested that New Zealand did so well on coronavirus “because it’s an island” and “because of the small population.” In reality, New Zealand had one of the best coronavirus responses in the world thanks to the sharp and empathetic leadership of Prime Minister Ardern. The lockdown was early and total, as was the quarantine of international visitors (no small feat for a major international tourist destination). New cases and deaths have been effectively eliminated.

   Successful responses to this epidemic are no accident of geography or demography. Let’s give credit where credit is due, especially to the leadership of Prime Minister Ardern, and then let’s figure out how to defeat our own leader, who couldn’t lead the way out of a paper bag.

   1. I agree! People are so quick to try and find every extenuating factor, but what really matters is leadership!

   2. Nobody said Prime Minister Ardern doesn’t deserve any credit. Obviously she’s handled it really well. But there are important fundamental differences between NZ and the US in terms of geography and demographics, so it’s pretty silly to say that just because NZ did something of course the US can do it too.

      Also I think some people were making the point that we have to make decisions based on the leaders and populations we had, not the ones we wish we had. Would I choose Ardern over Trump to be my leader? Of course, in a heartbeat (for many reasons, not just the virus). But given that Trump is our leader and ~40% of the country supports him, I feel like it’s cutting off my nose to spite my face to force myself into an extended lockdown until we reach some mythical point of low/no cases that we’re never going to get to. Of course if I lived in NZ I would feel differently. It doesn’t make you evil or stupid to recognize that what happened in NZ is unattainable in the US, due to a variety of factors including our leadership, our geography and the willingness (or lack thereof) of our population to comply with rules, and to make decisions based on the country you actually live in, not the one you wish you lived in.

      1. Maybe nobody specifically said that she doesn’t deserve credit, but no one on that thread gave her credit either. NZ could’ve become a total clusterf*ck and it didn’t thanks to her.

         In my opinion, you do have to acknowledge the reality of the situation that you’re in and do the best you can, but you also shouldn’t use it as an excuse for inaction or bad policy as a lot of people seem to. We certainly shouldn’t be letting people who are attacking Target employees and engaging in armed protests at the state house be dominant players in our national response. Obviously it would help a lot if we had effective leadership in the White House and Congress, not only to lead the response but to repair some of the mistrust that has split this country.

         1. Nobody on that thread was defending anyone who attacks store employees or engages in armed protests at state capitals. This is a total straw man.

            1. I never said that anyone said that. I’m merely making a broader point.

            2. We are talking about a specific thread yesterday Pure Imagination. In which no one downplayed Ardern, no one defended armed protests or attacks on employees, but nearly all of us challenged the idea that because New Zealand has been successful we all should stay home until we reach the same metrics. Because of the vast differences in the countries.

               Please don’t stir up drama.

            3. Omg the PI haters are back. Can you guys just stoppppppp

            4. “Omg the PI haters are back. Can you guys just stoppppppp”

               It is not “hating” on someone to disagree with them. She did not attack PI personally, she brought up a valid point about things that were said on the thread yesterday. If we are at a point where people cannot disagree with a poster who uses a consistent handle without being accused of “hating,” then this community has officially tone-policed itself into irrelevancy and I’m not sure what the point of having discussions about anything slightly controversial will be in the future. PI posts her opinions under a handle. People can disagree with those opinions and attribute those disagreements back to something she said. If you can’t handle that, Anon at 9:52, maybe the Internet in general is not the place for you.

            5. Oh FFS. Nobody on the thread yesterday said people are “evil or stupid” for distinguishing NZ, but Anon at 9:11 made that point. So, to be clear, PI can’t make points that are broader than yesterday’s thread, but it’s cool for everyone else to?

            6. @Anon at 1058, people have definitely been called evil and stupid here for saying zero deaths is not attainable in the US. I’ve personally been told I’m murdering people because I said the US can’t stay in lockdown until we reach zero deaths.

         2. Nobody on the thread gave her any credit because the question was not “Is Jacinda Ardern doing a good job?” or “New Zealand’s national coronavirus response: discuss.” On the thread yesterday, people said zero new deaths was not a realistic goal in the US, you said (yet again) “but NZ did it!” and people pointed out (not unreasonably) that there are major geographical and demographic differences between NZ and the US. I’ve seen nothing but praise for NZ’s leadership on this board, and the leadership wasn’t the topic of discussion yesterday.

            I think there are a lot of us who are getting tired of the repetitive “But New Zealand…!” responses whenever the coronavirus is discussed here. Truly, I have nothing but respect and admiration for Ardern, but the countries are fundamentally different and expecting the case or death counts out of the US to look like NZ is completely unrealistic.

            1. +1000

            2. +1

            3. +1

            4. + whatever number we’re on

      2. I am coming down here. It’s like my state is Strict and a state that is a 10-minute drive away would let me get a haircut now. No visas. No plane. No border. Not even a toll to pay. My guess is that there is one strong voice in NZ. In the US, we have 51 deciders of policies and no internal borders (except that getting to AK and HI are expensive / difficult). It’s just not apples and apples.

         It would be interesting to see what NZ did with nursing homes. I feel that we bungled that majorly. And I think that transit spread maybe isn’t a thing in NZ compared to big US coastal cities.

         1. In retrospect, nursing homes should have had quarantine measures ~Feb 1. BUT, it would have been totally politically unfeasible.

            1. Nursing homes should have had PPE and better standards. We can lock ourselves away forever, but if staff in nursing homes go from a COVID 19 patient to a patient that doesn’t have the virus without changing their gloves, our staying at home is pointless.

         2. Hawaii actually has had a similar response to New Zealand, with similar results. They were the only state with a state customs in place already, and they’ve shifted resources to that infrastructure to strongly enforce a 14-day quarantine for all visitors. According to their Department of Health, they’ve had a total of 641 cases, and just 11 cases of community spread so far in May. Their lieutenant governor said that Hawaii would be ready to reopen to tourists when tourists could certify a negative test result within a certain number of days of flying, or when Hawaii could test all incoming tourists as soon as they landed.

            To me, this reinforces the conclusion that New Zealand’s geography and demographics helped make its success possible. Why would any other state, besides maybe Alaska, go into full lockdown for 8-12 weeks when (a) your population can just drive across the border to get a haircut, shop, and go to the beach, and (b) as soon as you do open up, thousands of people who haven’t been in lockdown will travel to your state and bring the virus with them?

            1. Yep, exactly.

            2. Roadblocks with access for state residents or on pre-authorization only makes it possible, no? It’s a lot of work but possible for the more remote states at least if the population supports it.

            3. “Roadblocks with access for state residents or on pre-authorization only makes it possible, no? It’s a lot of work but possible for the more remote states at least if the population supports it.”

               It’s illegal to restrict interstate travel, per federal law.

            4. Roadblocks on major highways would cut down on a lot of it, but they’re expensive, and you’re still going to have people entering on back roads, as well as on foot or bike (I’m biking distance from another state). Plus, how do you weed out the people that are trying to enter illegally to use services in your state from the people that are just driving through the state (including truckers delivering essential goods to other areas)?
               Islands really do have an advantage that people can only enter at airports and ports and can be screened more effectively, and nobody who goes to an island is “just passing through.”

      3. She shut the country down right away when the first cases were found, and in a quite radical way. People had to stay in their neighborhood. Tourism was stopped, even though it’s their most important economic sector. Citizens coming in are quarantined for two weeks, no exceptions.
         It’s no use to discuss how much of these measures would have been feasible in the US, because they weren’t taken right away, and now we’re in a different phase of the pandemic, having to learn how to live with the risk instead of eliminating it.

         Another bit of context why NZ could take the measures that they did, is that they are this small island with an unique biodiversity, which they are poised to protect from invasive species. Biosecurity is a great part of their border security always, so they maybe think more about containment and isolation as a government.

      4. No one has ever advocated an extended lockdown til we reach a mythical point of zero. Democrats own businesses too, you know.

         1. Lots of people have advocated for it here (and/or until there’s a vaccine), and I know people in real life who feel that way too.

            1. +1

            2. I have been watching these threads closely and I think people have advocated for a longer lockdown/getting down to a lower number of cases (or lower number of community transmission cases where we don’t know the spread is occuring). I have not seen anyone actually propose being locked down until there is a vaccine, just people accusing them of proposing that as a strawman in arguments.

               Proposing that people who CAN telework be asked to continue to do so until we have treatment a vaccine? Yes. Considering whether or not we will actually be able to open schools, and how? Yes. Proposing that reopening with 1000s of new cases per day will fuel exponential growth from a much higher starting point than when we shut down in March? Yes.

               But let’s not start an argument about something that no one is proposing.

            3. I haven’t seen that here at all. AnonMPH below has the nuance right.

            4. It has happened many times, and just because you haven’t noticed it or don’t remember it doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened.

            5. I read here pretty much every day now and I haven’t seen this ever; certainly not “many times.”

            6. I don’t have the time to search for all of them, nor do I find it particularly enjoyable to re-read all the old flame wars, particularly from February/March when a lot of people were optimistic this would just be a blip, but here’s one, from someone proclaiming to be an “actual expert” no less: https://corporettemoms.com/long-sleeve-ruffle-shirt-in-floral-eyelet/#comment-221933
               (“18 months is a real possibility. The second the current restrictions and closures are relaxed there will be a boom in cases, so the goal is to keep these measures in place until there is a vaccine.” The “these measures” she was referring to were stay at home orders and widespread school/daycare closures, not just the mitigation strategies like masks/social distancing/canceling large social gatherings.)

            7. That’s from the moms site, which some of us don’t read.

            8. There were definitely similar comments here (possibly all the same person, who knows).

   3. Hear hear. What I wouldn’t give to swap leaders.

   4. I mean, both things can be true. 1) Arden did a great job and 2) NZ was way better off because it’s an island. You specifically mentioned quarantining international arrivals – you do realize that’s about a billion times easier when everyone who is visiting arrives at your country through one of a handful of airports and seaports right? China also had a complete and total lockdown that eliminated the virus domestically, but now they have imported cases every day, and a new hotspot near their land border with Russia. Ardern deserves kudos, but it’s MUCH easier to keep imported cases out of your country when you don’t share land borders with any other country.

      1. +1 do I think the US would have had way better outcomes if she were in charge instead of Trump? Absolutely! Would deaths have been zero? No way!

         1. But maybe in NZ the PM has a lot of control. In the US, the actual people who decide the rules we have been living under are the 50 governors and the mayor of DC. Plus a lot of city/county executives have additional rules that can be different/stricter than state rules. Our national government does some stuff, but this is a state and local thing with how the US actually works. If NYC had shut schools earlier and gotten nursing homes right, they’d still have had to deal with mass transit; it could have been better. But in NYC, you have a lot of workers not from Manhattan going back and forth ever day, some from other states. And in the US, a governor can’t constitutionally limit interstate travel. NZ doesn’t have stuff like that to deal with. In my state, a very distant county that is not a tourist area just had its first case — it helps if your population is static. My county has one of the largest airports in the US, so we got it much earlier than that outlying county.

            1. Exactly this. People who look at what other countries do and say “well, but the U.S. could do that!” I think have either no, or a very facile, understanding of how complicated leadership and jurisdiction is in the United States. In my state and city we have a governor and a mayor who are on the same page but a county sheriff and a state-level police chief who are not on that page, and are refusing to enforce orders. There are places in the United States (the St. Louis area is one of them) where there are something like 45 independent municipalities within a 20-mile radius of a city. Small islands with small populations where there’s jurisdictional uniformity aren’t anything close to the same thing as the U.S. Hawaii could maybe have done what New Zealand did. Or Puerto Rico. But the entire United States? Fuhggedabout it.

            2. Hawaii basically has done what NZ did. They have essentially no local transmission and only isolated imported cases that are strictly quarantined. Gee, what do Hawaii and NZ possibly have in common?!

            3. “In the US, the actual people who decide the rules we have been living under are the 50 governors and the mayor of DC. Plus a lot of city/county executives have additional rules that can be different/stricter than state rules. Our national government does some stuff, but this is a state and local thing with how the US actually works.”

               Not only is this true, but we also have a lot more losers waving AR-15s and AK-47s around and yelling “mah freedoms.” Why does the US produce so many losers, for whom a simple mask is a sacrifice on the same level as the sacrifice our grandfathers made storming the beaches of Normandy?

      2. Sure, but local transmission is the bigger risk over time. That’s where the good leadership comes in. New Zealand could have easily bungled the whole thing and very badly.

         1. But the imported cases lead to local transmission. China now has significant local outbreaks near the Russian border and may need at least that part of the country to go into lockdown again. If you’re an island, it’s plausible that you can go into lockdown for 2-3 months, eliminate the virus domestically, and then prevent foreign visitors from spreading the virus in your country so you can return to normal or some version of it without the need for any more lockdowns. Any country that has a land border is never going to have the virus eliminated as long as nearby countries have outbreaks, because they will always have imported cases that will lead to local spread unless they have ongoing lockdowns. Ardern has done a great job, no one is knocking her. But it’s wild that people are acting like a small island nation with a far lower population density is analogous to the US in terms of controlling a virus.

      3. Yeah, the US has 300+ international ports of entry. I think NZ has less than thirty. The US has a strong federal system, which severely limits the power of the central government to impose controls on movement within the country, determine the scope of local lockdowns, etc. Even if Trump were competent, he literally doesn’t have the power to do what the NZ PM did. And guess what? Given that Trump is the president we have, that’s actually a good thing – because Trump refuses to wear a mask and is apparently taking hydroxychloroquine and isn’t, let’s say, the guy I’d really want making all the decisions. If he had that power, he wouldn’t use it in the way most people on this board want him to. Your Cuomos and Whitmers have been able to act as they did because they operate in a system that doesn’t allow the president to make these decisions on a state level.

         I have no desire to diminish the NZ PM, who I’ve been consistently impressed by for years. I’d rather have been in NZ (or Germany) for this. But she leads a completely different country with different geography, culture, political system, and demographics. Literally all we have in common is that we speak the same language. Canada is a somewhat closer comparison, but you’re still talking about a significantly smaller population with a lower volume of international arrivals, weaker federalism, better healthcare, and a stronger culture of social solidarity.

         Looking to strategies from other countries that have been effective is a good thing. But those examples have to actually be workable in the country we have with the leadership we have (not the country we wish we had with the leadership we would, in my case, strongly prefer).

         1. +1 This.

            Also – while in this situation, you might not like the weaker federal government, in others, I’d take it 100x over the alternative.

         2. I agree with a lot of your points but disagree strongly on Canada having weaker federalism. All major decisions on shut down are provincial level (education system/business openings, health system etc). Feds are basically just decisions on international borders. And some provinces have shut their own internal borders.

            1. Ah, interesting, I didn’t know that – for some reason I thought someone here yesterday or the day before said that the lockdown decisions were federal in Canada. That does strengthen Canada as the more interesting comparison to me, although my sense from living in a neighboring state is that Canada is culturally distinctive in ways that Americans often miss due to proximity and shared language…

         3. “Even if Trump were competent, he literally doesn’t have the power to do what the NZ PM did. And guess what? Given that Trump is the president we have, that’s actually a good thing – because Trump refuses to wear a mask and is apparently taking hydroxychloroquine and isn’t, let’s say, the guy I’d really want making all the decisions. If he had that power, he wouldn’t use it in the way most people on this board want him to.”

            This is a really excellent point that I hadn’t thought of. If Trump really had the power, he would have executed it without the thinking and strategic planning that Pritzker, Whitmer, et al are bringing to the party.

            I’m glad he doesn’t wear a mask. May it increase his odds of getting it.

   5. Jacinda Arden is fantastic. And leads a country with a population half the size of New Jersey. Acknowledging the dramatic differences in scope between the two countries doesn’t diminish her.

      1. This.

   6. This. I’m in a Cdn province with zero new cases in 11 days and we are just starting to open up in a couple weeks. We closed early and relatively completely. All restaurants, gyms, playgrounds etc still closed for at least another two weeks. Grocery stores and hardware stores open, everything else is curbside pick up only. No non-residents admitted without special permission. Zero protests against the strict measures. Strong sense of community that we are all responsible for each other and keeping each other safe. Being an island 100% helps but that’s not the main factor. Roads in and out of areas can be patrolled/controlled. People can show up anywhere on an island with a boat. Sail boats come and go all summer from various ports normally and I imagine NZ is the same. Strong sense of community and responsibility for others lead us to shelter everyone who arrived on 9/11 and it’s helping us to prioritize keeping each other safe now. Wish there were more leaders like JA and keeping fingers crossed for everyone in US.

   7. The most dense city in New Zealand (Aukland) has a population density of approximate 1,500 people per km^2.

      There’s a list of the 133 most dense cities in America, and Redondo Beach, #133, clocks in at 3,300 people per km^2.

      1. All the more reason that the US should still be much more extensively locked down, no?

         1. What parts of the US? South Dakota shouldn’t be locked down because NYC is a disaster.

            1. All parts with a population density higher than NZ if you want to have their success rate.

            2. Right. The majority of the U.S. doesn’t have the population density of Redondo Beach. It doesn’t even have the population density of Auckland. There is no one-size-fits-all solution to this. It’s a consequence of the United States being so geographically large and population-dispersed.

            3. The Smithfield plant in SD is certainly a disaster.

            4. “What parts of the US? South Dakota shouldn’t be locked down because NYC is a disaster.”

               The problem is that the people in South Dakota somehow don’t seem to realize that the coffee shop in South Dakota where people are sitting next to one another isn’t all that different from the coffee shop in Manhattan, insofar as proximity = risk. Or the church in South Dakota vs the church in Manhattan, etc. They seem to think that because they can walk outside and see for miles, that it’s somehow different. It just takes one person with a contagious disease of this nature to create a super-spread environment, which has been amply proven.

            5. There was someone in the comments section of the NYT trying to argue that the Smithfield meat plant “shouldn’t count” in that county’s numbers. Because, you know, they aren’t “regular people.” Sigh.

            6. LaurenB you aren’t wrong re: one person can transmit but I do think there is a difference between SD and NYC in that there are just so many more cases in NYC and the density here makes it much more likely that someone in the coffee shop in NYC has it versus in SD. But agree, if one person in each location has it, the risk is exactly the same. It’s just that it’s much more likely that someone in a NYC coffee shop has it than someone in SD.

            7. LaurenB, I want to say it was a public figure who said that, not a mere commenter. I will have to look it up but I remember reading exactly that comment.

      2. Furthermore, America is the third largest country in the world by population and has over 51 independent jurisdictions (states, DC, tribal land). Trump is actually not in charge of quarantines; the state governments are. He can shut down travel, which he did, despite protests from the left. He cannot issue nationwide quarantine orders.

         1. LOL protests from the left. I think your bias is showing.

            1. I’m not the person you’re replying to, but many on the left were absolutely outraged when Trump tried to close our borders in February. And now those same people are praising countries like New Zealand that did exactly the same thing, albeit more successfully (because. they. are. an. ISLAND.) There’s definitely an element of hypocrisy. (I identify as liberal and voted for Hillary/will vote for Biden, fwiw.)

            2. Yeah, I don’t like Trump at all, but I still remember when there were a pile of articles calling him racist for shutting our borders. We need to look at the policy, not the person. You can not like Trump while still agreeing with shutting the borders (hell, I think he should have gone farther/sooner/early).

            3. I’m not who you are responding to but the left absolutely resisted Trump’s calls to shut down travel. I’m a democrat and hate Trump but I think not shutting down travel sooner and more strictly was one of our biggest mistakes. Honestly I cannot believe air travel is still being permitted

            4. +1 to Anon at 10:35. I am also a lifelong Democrat/self-identified liberal. It’s pretty hilarious how closing our borders was a bad idea when Trump wanted to do it but a great idea when New Zealand did it. There’s cognitive dissonance there that I find hard to reconcile.

         2. The “protests from the left” (PS fair criticism via editorials and social media aren’t “protests”) were because it made no sense to to ban travel from China only, when the virus was known to have spread to several different countries by that time, and to also exempt Americans from said travel ban. Thus, the ban was not only racist, xenophobic, but ineffective. It was too little, too late, and he just sat on his fat laurels afterwards for months, giving himself an “A+” and suggesting we drink bleach, while 90k+ Americans died.

            1. I agree with everything in your post except to say that a limited travel ban is/was of limited utility. That’s like the people who claim since not everyone wears a mask they are useless. Partial protection is still partial protection.

   8. Enough, please, with the catti-ness, ladies. Pure Imagination is being unnecessarily bashed. She is well versed, smart, has a decent job, and is married. Let’s not gang up on anyone, but least of which her, b/c she is well balanced.
      On that score, I wanted to point out an article I read in the Harvard Busness Review about having a strategic side gig to keep us going, particularly in these COVID times.

      https://hbr.org/2020/05/the-strategic-side-gig

      They say now more than ever, engagement in strategic side gigs is a requirement for executives. Leaders who want to rise—and help their organizations thrive—need to find ways to expand their field of vision and build their knowledge, skills, and connections even as they carry on their daily work.

      I suggest that as women professionals, we start looking for these kind of side gigs, rather than bashing other accomplished professionals like Pure Imagination. There will come a day that she will want to do something but not tell the HIVE b/c of all the bashing. Let’s not do that. We should encourage the innovation in all of us!

   9. You’re completely mischaracterizing yesterday’s discussion. If the question was “Why is New Zealand doing so well at handling coronavirus?” or “Compare the US’s coronavirus reponse to New Zealand’s,” then I agree that Ardern is absolutely a key part of the answer, and lots of people would have said so. But that wasn’t the question. A couple people said that getting to zero new deaths is not realistic in the US, and Pure Imagination said “New Zealand has zero new deaths from coronavirus. It can be done, but the US doesn’t care to try” and then people pointed out some major geographic, political and demographic differences between the US and New Zealand. That’s totally different than just having a general discussion about how great New Zealand is doing while ignoring Ardern’s role in it.

      1. Yes. The “doesn’t care to try” language flippantly implies “the US” (whoever that refers to) is willingly killing people because “we” are selfish, incompetent and/or heartless.

   10. I despise Trump personally and politically, voted for Hillary in ’16 and absolutely will vote for Biden this year. And I think Trump has done a lot wrong with respect to handling this situation, especially leaving the states to their own devices to procure testing supplies (that’s madness!). BUT… I’m more than a little amused that the same liberals who were up in arms at Trump’s early virus-related travel bans are now holding up New Zealand – which immediately sealed their borders and continues to keep their borders sealed – as the model coronavirus response. So…no immigration or foreign visitors is perfect for New Zealand, but it’s horrible when Trump does the same thing?

       1. You have zero grip on the facts relating to views of the travel ban. Trump did the ban late, excluded countries where he had hotel interests and permitted travel from the U.K. when they were trying for herd immunity. It was in no way intended to actually protect us.

          1. I’m not saying Trump implemented the ban perfectly – I think it’s quite clear now that he didn’t. But there were definitely a lot of liberals calling him racist, nationalist and xenophobic in February, and now those same people are saying “look at what a great job New Zealand did!” Either it’s xenophobic to seal your borders or it isn’t, you don’t get to pick and choose based on whether or not you like the person in charge.

             1. You can say that the actual, operating travel ban that he implemented was xenophobic, racist, and nationalist if that’s how it worked in reality. That was the critique.

             2. It’s xenophobic to seal your borders to brown people and Asian people and Europeans who said mean things to you, but not to the Brits or places where Trump has business interests. This isn’t rocket science.

             3. The way he implemented it and the language he used was racist. The ban was not data driven. It should have happened earlier and not excluded the UK.

             4. Trump is a racist person and uses a lot of racist rhetoric, and the left decried the very concept of a travel ban as racist and xenophobic. Both things are true.

                Exempting the UK from a travel ban isn’t really racism. I agree it was a bad decision from a public health perspective given that the UK was a hotspot, but the two countries have always had a special relationship and people in the UK are on the whole less white than people in many countries that were banned, so it’s weird to me to characterize that decision as racist.

          2. Anonymous at 10:41 am is spot on. Any idiot in Europe could get to the UK and hence get to the US. It was a policy designed to be racist that had the unintended effect of probably being somewhat helpful against Covid.

             1. How is banning Norway and Poland and Italy but not the UK racist? You can say it’s stupid and doesn’t serve the intended purpose (I agree!) but I don’t understand how it can possibly be racism, when the UK is far less white than many countries that were banned. Trump himself is racist but that doesn’t mean every single decision he makes is guided by a desire to be racist.

                Also at the time, there were many think pieces arguing that any sort of travel ban was racist and xenophobic. Some of the pushback was to Trump’s specific proposals, but not at all of it. I personally had friends calling their representatives saying their should be NO travel bans whatsoever. They definitely weren’t saying “travel bans are great but we also need to add the UK to the list.”

             2. Agree with everything anon at 1:09 said. Trump is a racist, that doesn’t mean everything he does is racist. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

                The policy was flawed but as she pointed out, I don’t see how exempting the UK but not other “whiter” countries was racist. That doesn’t mean it was a good policy.

                Also, there were many many people arguing at the time that any travel ban was bad. I understand that given Trump’s prior actions on travel bans, it was a hot topic but we can’t rewrite what happened and say that no one was against banning travel.

   11. What an interesting thread of people agreeing with each other in the most disagreeable way.

       1. How’s the view from up there on your high horse?

          1. That’s not how I meant that, I’m sorry it came across that way. I was trying to point out that there’s ~70 comments of everybody saying the same thing! But thanks for the insult, great way to start my day.

       2. I thought this comment was funny and accurate.

6. Anybody want to play “choose your own adventure” with my life? I’ve been casually looking for a job, but this pandemic has me really confused.

   Current job pros: Privately-owned company that’s incredibly stable (plans ahead for a cash reserve and historically weathers economic hardship without layoffs). My direct boss is fair, flexible, and understanding. She takes on her share of the grunt work, and tries to shield me from the BS that comes from above her. Remote work has been allowed during Covid.

   Current job cons: It’s a tech company stuck in the Mesozoic Era. A sea of white men expected to wear ties to do butts-in-seats design work in cubicles. Women are treated like trophies to be paraded through “women in STEM” trade journals, but never actually get respected or promoted. I have no room for advancement–my boss worked as a department of one for 18 years before gaining me and being made my manager. Because my boss is a lifer, her salary is INSANELY depressed and thus I have no hope of making fair market rate myself. Remote work will be snatched away as soon as the state lets us come back, because even though my job is easily done remotely, the company operates like a crab bucket. Anyone allowed to WFH gets complained about until it’s rolled back in the interest of being “fair” to the jobs that have to be done onsite.

   Prior to Covid, I was looking for a fully remote job, which is common in my field. I also wanted a promotion to a senior position, which I’m years overdue for (my boss has expressed regret that no such thing exists in our department). And, of course, the pay is a major issue as well. Now, I’m feeling pressure to stay at a place that I know weathered 2008 quite well, because the things that are bad about it are tolerable compared to risking downsizing. I’m also a 40-something woman in tech, which has its own baggage.

   I know I need to look eventually, but how long would you wait? I was downsized in 2008 (and in 2005, and in 2003) and struggled for so long that I went back to freelancing, so I’m more gun-shy than the average bear.

   1. Following with interest. I’m a 40ish woman in tech but not computers) and am currently in a similar situation. I empathize with you! There are no promotion options in my dept. The women who do get promoted do so by leaving my department and going to a different job in the company.
      I wish I had a good life experience example to share with you. I personally keep thinking i need to get a career coach to help me prep and find a new job and possibly even leave the company. But that always feels overwhelming so I….overthink it, but don’t do anything.

   2. I totally get your cons, but in my opinion, now is not the time to leave. I’d wait 6 months, see where the world is in the late fall/early winter, and then see if you think the market is stable enough to move.

   3. I think you’re putting the cart before the horse. Don’t not look for a job because you’re afraid you won’t find one. Job hunt. See what you come up with. You’re in a great spot to do so. You don’t have any time pressure to get out of your current job so you can afford to be picky.

      1. I’m not afraid that I won’t find one, I should have been more clear. I’m afraid that any job I DO find will not be as stable as what I have now, so I will end up downsized from that job.

         1. That seems like something to evaluate as you interview. Ask how they weathered prior downturns, how their outlook seems for this one, what the impacts of the pandemic have been on their operations, what the plan looks like moving forward, etc. Particularly if you are interviewing for more senior positions, these questions should not surprise or phase them (and if they do, that is a useful data point for your evaluation of the role).

            1. I don’t think that’s something that is askable though. Everyone will make their place sound secure. And many places are–until they suddenly aren’t, especially in tech. With folks comparing the current climate to the Great Depression, I’d stick with the enemy you know. At least for the next 6 mos to a year. No amount of research is going to make up for you being newly hired if a company finds itself needing to make cuts. And the reality is that many places that normally promote their folks may cease doing so for the next year or two while they’re trying to get their financials to catch up to drops with their own investments and business shifts. I’m old enough to have seen the job environment post 9/11 and post recession. Things like another year or so without a promotion are far less damaging to a career than having to suddenly move laterally or backward because of unforeseen job loss or even worse, finding yourself among the unemployed with excessively long job searches during these down shifts.

      2. This. I wouldn’t quit a job now (not what you’re suggesting but what prior threads have and where you might be thinking you shouldn’t look), but by all means write your resume and look around. Be picky because you have a stable job, and perhaps stability in a new company becomes more important. Be care about quitting, make sure that your new job is still there if you get one. so perhaps a shorter notice period than you’d otherwise give or less time between jobs than ideal.

   4. Stay put, revisit this at year end. A lot of tech companies have done layoffs and furloughs. Those who don’t have headcount freezes for most functions. By the end of the year we should have better visibility into the recovery.

   5. I wouldn’t start looking now. See how the coming months shake out. You might also use this time to tell everyone who will listen how much you like WFH and how you are just as productive as at the office (if true). If your boss is receptive, maybe share some of the articles about how more and more employees will be looking for WFH opportunities and better balance when the job doesn’t require F2F work. Make the case that it will help recruiting 2-3 years out and help the company stay competitive. If you have colleagues who feel the same, ask them to make sure their managers know. (yes, I realize that this may not work given your company’s leadership, but there’s no reason not to be an aggressive lobbyist for better conditions given the state of things now, while you can highlight that WFH is not the devil.)

   6. Also following! Similar quandary, minus the WFH/in-office deal. Current position is likely to stay half-WFH which is about the most that I would want.
      I would continue looking, right now, if possible. Looking does not have to turn into anything, but you don’t want to miss out.
      I have ramped-down my search a bit, since the stability of my current role is very, very appealing right now. But the insane office drama is somehow getting worse – and Biggest Boss is expected to retire in 3-5 at which point I will almost certainly need to jump ship.
      The thing that I struggle with (40) is this – at what point so I become irrelevant? My current role is super niche and will (and should) remain so. But I feel like 3-5 more years might make me a dinosaur.

   7. This isn’t the question you asked, but you should have been aggressively looking for a job once it became clear that a promotion and/or market rate for said promotion is not in the cards.

      1. You’re right, that wasn’t what she asked, and since she doesn’t have a time machine where she can go back and change what she did in the past, this response is super-unhelpful.

         1. It is helpful for people reading who find themselves in that situation in years to come.

      2. This past fall is the first time I’ve had the bandwidth to deal with job searching, because I was overwhelmed with my father-in-law’s Alzheimers. Life happens.

   8. I will just comment that my sister is a senior leader in tech, and how she has managed her career choices is so, so specific to tech that I believe the only people you should be taking advice from are fellow women in tech.

      I’m in finance and could not advise my sister, nor could her attorney friends. You have to be in tech to understand it. It’s very unlike other fields. Especially the nerd/bro culture. (Where being bro-y is totally cool as long as you’re a nerd)

   9. I’d be looking for a job aggressively now, but I would have been doing that years ago in your situation. The environment you describe is something I could not tolerate well at all. So ymmv.

7. Hi Ladies, Macy’s is having a flash sale on shoes today only. I found some really cute flats now that my office is business-casual for the foreseeable future:

   These Aerosoles flats have great reviews as being super-comfy so I got several pairs to try. Cute colors/patters too!
   https://www.macys.com/shop/product/aerosoles-homerun-ballet-flat?ID=8151312

8. Anyone have any luck paying for masks with FSA? I have paid over 200 dollars for masks in the past two months for just my use (!!! – doesn’t count spouse or kids masks)… but my FSA provider UnitedHealth is really unclear about the whole thing after a phone call and email.

   1. Not trying to be snarky but that seems like an insane amount of money spent on masks, what kinds are you buying?

      1. +1

      2. I can see that actually – masks seem to range from $10-$20 per mask. If you buy a 7-8 of the higher end ones plus filters that could easily be $200. If you’re going into the office daily I can totally understand wanting at least 7-8 so you don’t have to wash them every 2-3 days. We have 6 adult masks currently, and from Friday-Saturday evening they were all used as I went to UPS on Friday AM (mask 1), picked up pizza with my husband Friday PM (masks 2,3), my husband grabbed mulch from the neighbors who did a bulk order Saturday AM (mask 4) and we went out for a walk on the beach (masks 5, 6) that night.
         They were SO hard to get and shipping times were insane, I am FINALLY getting the backups I ordered back in April now.

         1. FWIW, for masks that I just wear quickly (like for 15 minutes or less), I sanitize them with an iron and use them again. I use an iron on hot and wash after the next wear.

            1. Yeah, I’m definitely not wearing a different mask for all of these outings.

            2. That’s a really good tip – thank you!

         2. Why do you have to switch every time, though?

            1. Sanitation, obviously.

            2. I can’t put my finger on the study right now but if you have a three day rotation of masks, and leave the used one out somewhere it isn’t being touched, like your car seat in the sun, any virus on it will be dead the next time you wear it and you don’t have to run them through the wash each time you wear them.

            3. This is exactly right. Honestly, since I”m only in my car every few days, I’ve just let the mask sit there; it’s fine by the time I come back around to use it again.

         3. Not trying to be snarky – but is the beach really so busy you can’t socially distance? I can’t imagine wearing a mask for a walk on the beach.

            1. The beaches re-opened in our town for the first time in months, it was in the 70’s after a super cold and rainy April, and everyone was DYING to get out. So yes, even though nobody was allowed to sit there were definitely times in the parking lots/passing near the water where we weren’t able to socially distance.

            2. I think you can probably avoid this is if you just wait a few days to go. They’re obviously going to be more crowded when they first open. Our totally lame, normally deserted local mall was packed on the day it opened because people clearly just wanted a reason to leave the house. It was empty again by the second or third day (I wasn’t there but the local news has been following it closely).

         4. “We have 6 adult masks currently, and from Friday-Saturday evening they were all used as I went to UPS on Friday AM (mask 1), picked up pizza with my husband Friday PM (masks 2,3), my husband grabbed mulch from the neighbors who did a bulk order Saturday AM (mask 4) and we went out for a walk on the beach (masks 5, 6) that night.”

            This is a bit dramatic. You’re wearing these masks for a short period of time – it’s not like you’re the grocery store clerk wearing it for 8 hours.

            You go to UPS on Friday PM – that’s a half-hour errand. Why can’t you just re-use that mask on Friday PM for your next half-hour of picking up pizza? Why couldn’t the Sat AM mulch mask be worn for Sat PM walk on the beach? For heaven’s sake, my spouse has *one* N-95 mask that he re-uses and he’s in a freakin’ operating room with exposure to body fluids; I think you can safely re-use your mask that you wore to UPS to the walk on the beach. I myself have one surgical mask that I just let air out and spritz with sanitizer in between wearings, and one cloth mask – ditto.

      3. OP here… I am essential employee in a hotspot just outside of NYC. My employer only distributes medical masks (not N95). I purchased my own masks as a second layer over the medical masks. Yes, it seems like a lot of money, but I sometimes refresh the second mask twice a day. And of course at night I need to wash/let them air dry. Having a few masks frees me from spending my evening taking care of masks after a long workday.
         You’d be surprised how fast this stuff adds up cost-wise. I purchased these brands: FIGS, Hedley & Bennett (filter is purchased separately), some duds off of Etsy, LA Apparel, Graf Lantz (filters purchased separately)…

         1. Where do you get filters? I have no idea what to buy for mine.

         2. Thanks for the response. I get it now, if I were wearing masks for an extended period of time each day, I’d want to have a good amount to rotate. In principle, it should be possible to charge them to the FSA, wasn’t that one of the changes in the cares act?
            According to Cigna, they are eligible https://www.cigna.com/individuals-families/member-resources/hsa-fsa-hra-payments/eligible-expenses

      4. Yeah, it seems high. Maybe OP is using disposable ones? Reusable is going to be cheaper. I bought a pack of 5 from reformation and 2 packs of 3 from LA apparel. Each pack was 25 bucks, so 75 total. I thought these were higher end masks as well – cheaper ones are available elsewhere. This set of 11 masks is enough for two people in a place where masks are required every time you leave your home, we go outside almost every day, and we wash after each use with our normal laundry.

   2. I spent more than this on materials to make a week’s worth of masks for five people, including filtration inserts.

9. The CDC released the full guidance document that Trump had previously rejected on guidelines for reopening different businesses. Offices with high-risk employees and employees who use public transit are encouraged to continue to allow telework as much as possible. How do people think this is going to play out in reality? The public transit issue is very concerning for many of us; even if offices manage to have amazing social distancing protocols, I simply don’t see how you can make a jam-packed subway safe enough. Follow up question, what are the other high-risk individuals here doing about accommodations? Are you requesting formal ones? I’m not sure what my best approach should be.

   1. This is just another way of asking the same question you’ve been posing nearly daily for 6 weeks. My employer and many others have already said returning to in person work is voluntary for the foreseeable future. Your employer obviously has you concerned they will not. So when and if they announce that you are required to return to the office, your options will be a) quit, b) take leave, c) request an accommodation to work from home based on your doctor’s recommendation.

      I’m truly sorry you’re in a distressing spot, but you seem to be looking for an answer of “well, now that this article came out or that guidance was published your boss will have to see the light” and that’s just not realistic at all.

      1. Let’s assume for a variety of reasons that I won’t get into here that I’m not at high risk of being fired.

         By the way, feel free to scroll on by. If you’ve been monitoring me and you think I’ve been posting questions like this “daily for six weeks,” you have your own issues you’re dealing with. Yes, I’ve contributed often to these conversations when they come up because the situation and guidance is ever-evolving. Please skip if you’re not interested and have a great day!

         1. My response wasn’t mean and I substantively responded to your question. I’m not monitoring you, I just read here daily just like you and know that you have a lot of anxiety on this issue.

            If you aren’t at risk of getting fired, then once a plan is announced request an accommodation.

            1. If I weren’t worried about getting fired, I honestly wouldn’t even ask. I’d just keep on WFH.

               [And I have in fact done this, but for different reasons — my maternity leave was up but kiddo hadn’t gotten into daycare yet and we couldn’t find a FT nanny for only a short-term gig. I think it was for 2 months but if I never came back and just kept producing, they wouldn’t have sacked me.]

            2. +1 this response wasn’t mean and actually responded to the question asked. I know PI has had some unfair nastiness directed at her but this response was not that.

         2. Sweetie, it’s impossible to ignore your daily, anxious postings if you’re a regular reader here. I truly don’t mean this in a snarky way, but your anxiety is so palpable. Have you been able to get any help for it?

            1. Armchair diagnoses are never appropriate, even more so when they’re delivered in such a cruel manner. Not only do you need to stop endlessly bullying Pure Imagination, you need to stop posting on this site. From one Anon to another, you’re not welcome here.

            2. It is not bullying to tell a woman who spends her entire day on this website telling us how anxious she is that she should get some help for that anxiety.

            3. Yes it is and don’t mistake it. You don’t know her (or anyone else on this site you’ve shared your “concerns” with previously); you’re merely looking for an excuse to be cruel and cutting when you could’ve just collapsed the thread. You want to be a jerk? Own it. Don’t pretend you’re being helpful.

            4. Call it bullying or whatever you like, but a comment like this that starts with ‘Sweetie’ is hard to read as anything but dismissive and condescending.

            5. Thanks so much for your concern! As you know, it’s impossible for an average-intelligence layperson to diagnose mental health conditions over the Internet, but rest assured that my health is in a great place apart from this pesky life-threatening condition. Please don’t lose any sleep worrying about me.

   2. I am taking the angle that I have no way of knowing whether I am an asymptomatic carrier (both because testing access is still dismal in my area, and because a test is only a snapshot of that point in time and the results are basically void once I encounter anyone after the test).

      Asking my boss questions from that perspective scared the living daylights out of them: “Assuming I am an asymptomatic spreader, what will the kitchen/bathroom situation look like when we reopen?” The response was that we are not in a hurry to reopen now, perhaps we will reconsider in July?

      1. Ooh, this is genius. I am going to try that approach with my unreasonable employer that just announced that everyone will be “expected” to return to the office with no precautions or guidance.

   3. I think in reality, you will have to deal with the bosses and higher ups that you have, not the ones you want. Your best approach is to make your case based on the CDC and state/local public health guidance and the factors specific to your health that make you high risk and proposal a solution that allows you to minimize risk to your health while still delivering results at work and being available and effective in the office. Then you deal with their reaction and take the option that works for you whether it is WFH successfully, quit or be let go, or go in to the office.

      You can make a formal accomodation or not, I’d say that like anything, you make the case first and give your bosses the opportunity to grant you the solution you want without a formal accomodation, but honestly that’s not the important part.

      1. Right — like there are channels to get what you want. Why not use them when needed? I doubt any employer wants to get into HR-type litigation with an employee they aren’t gunning to sack anyway. Hoping that they magically come around to your way of thinking isn’t realistic.

         1. OK, this is helpful. I think it could make sense to make the case first and then try the formal accommodation route if needed. It’s been hard to make educated guesses about what is most likely to be successful/accepted.

            1. I don’t understand why you don’t wait until you see what your employer is going to do. None of us can tell you what they will do any anything prior to that is speculation.

            2. Because I want to know whether (and when) I should be requesting a formal accommodation. I asked what other high-risk individuals are planning to do.

            3. Whether: depends on what your office’s plan is.
               When: when your office tells you what their plan is.

   4. If you are in the position to impact company policy, I would note that opening up and then having to shut down again for a case is disruptive. It’s also expensive to have a deep clean done. So taking a slow approach to see if reofficing is working for others is a prudent business decision.

   5. I’m a high risk individual, in that I have a chronic, rare, lung condition. Although my office has not announced any plans to reopen, they have formed a committee to begin addressing issues of reopening. I’ve informally approached my manager with a request to continue to telework for the foreseeable future and he has tentatively approved it. If need be, I will request a formal accomodation and provide medical documentation. I have a telemedicine appointment to discuss with my doctor next week. My supervisor’s approval will need to be approved by his boss, and his boss’s boss. The boss’s boss will not have an issue with it, and has already reached out to me to let me know that.

      Information that influences these decisions: I was already teleworking 2 to 3 days a week, as were many in my office. I’ve worked for the same organization for 35 years and for my current supervisor for almost 5. I have an excellent reputation as a hard worker who uses her time well and gets things done.

      1. I will add that I have a high level of anxiety surrounding this. My bff and dh will tell you that I was really annoying up to the day that I spoke to my supervisor with my informal request. For some reason, I was absolutely positive that it would be turned down with a flat no, despite that not making sense given my history with my place of employment and the personalities of the people involved. I still have a fairly high stress level of a post Covid world and what it will look like, even post vaccine, for high risk individuals. I forsee a tremendous amount of both age discrimination and discrimination against those with disabilities/co-morbidities. I’m constantly stressed about my ability to manage and neogiate a world that is drastically different than the one I knew. Yes, I’ve always needed to be extremely careful during cold and flu season, but not to the level of Covid fear. I’m a 5 day a week gym user, and a 3x a week yoga studio user, who cannot at this point forsee returning to either place for at least a long, long, long time. I also like to eat out, travel, shop, all things that will be highly curtailed in my future.

         1. Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I’m in a similar boat – I’m stressed about managing my chronic illness and long commute in these new circumstances and my employer’s attitude (direct quote: “I know it’s irrational but I hate WFH”) hasn’t helped at all. I’m an active person with lots of outdoor hobbies (some of which are very risky, in fact), but this type of risk is new and hard to navigate. Best of luck to you.

            1. Can you dig into that a little bit with the employer? Honestly if a boss said that out loud I would say “you know, we should dig in to that a little bit because I find I’m very efficient when I work from home and am just as effective with leading my team. etc.”

               It’s worse to me when it’s clear the higher-ups HATE WFH but will not say anything and when you take advantage of company-wide or department-wide WFH programs, they just mentally ding you and rate you lower without being clear it’s because of their own bias against WFH.

               IME, when a boss is willing to call it out as “I know it’s irrational” it’s actually a good sign and a chance to correct some of those assumptions. “I can still have face time, collaborative time and be available using teams and other check-ins.”

   6. My office has been closed since March 16, and people are expressly banned from going in without written permission from one of two people. There’s been no word on when the office may reopen, but they’ve made clear that they’ll take the public transportation and childcare situations into account. In addition, they have stated that any individual who is high-risk and able to work from home will be allowed to continue working from home and that the only thing you have to do to qualify is state that you are high-risk (i.e. you don’t have to disclose the condition that makes you high risk).

      I have high blood pressure, which is one of the conditions that puts you at higher risk. Mine is well controlled with medicine so not sure how that impacts my risk level. I haven’t decided what I’m gonna do yet when the office reopens. I am in a position where I can walk to work, therefore avoiding public transportation, have a private office, and I don’t love working from home. Whether I go in or not will depend on what precautions the office decides to take

   7. I won’t comment on the anxiety, but I’m really high risk (60+ with active lymphoma disease and active immune-system lowering treatment currently). I have had FMLA accommodations for a year to miss work on treatment days but thankfully have only missed 10 days in that whole year.

      I have been working at home (large-sized bank west coast – not Big Bank but $20+billion) as have ~55% of the employees. My boss is against WFH but I plan to ask for continued WFH until at least 12/31/2020 unless covid is gone by then. (We can dream, right?) I plan to use my immune deficiency and the fact that we’ve all been able to seamlessly WFH since mid-March. If they say no, then I’m going to ask for “reasonable accommodation” under ADA. It helps that our governor has issued a decree that high risk people should be allowed to WFH until 7/31/2020 and he says it may be extended. Since we’re still not fully reopened, I expect that he will extend it.

      Pure Imagination – Do you have an FMLA accommodation now? If not, I’d get one. If you’re that worried, it would be a proactive step. Yes, it is invasive for an employer to know about an illness. Depending on the company, FMLA is supposed to be private between HR and you and your direct boss(es) aren’t informed of the reason. (I’ve told my boss everything.) Just tell them the bare minimum about your medical conditions. I think you will just need to be upfront about WFH, get a doctor’s note, use FMLA and/or ADA as much as possible. IANAL but I don’t expect that I’ll have any issues and I hope you succeed too.

      1. Thank you for this. Do you know if you need to have an FMLA accommodation to get a “reasonable accommodation” under the ADA?

         Best of luck staying healthy and happy!

         1. No not at all. A FMLA accommodation isn’t a thing. FMLA doesn’t provide accommodations it provides leave. This poster is giving sloppy advice. She doesn’t have an FMLA accommodation she has intermittent leave.

         2. You can have an ADA accomodation without ever needing to use FMLA, which is a totally separate program.

            1. I did not mean to imply – nor do I think that I did – that FMLA and ADA are related in any way. That’s not sloppy. This is not a text book or a scholarly source article.

               I said that I was going to ask first under my FMLA and see what they say. Then I would try to get an accommodation under ADA and I might even talk to an attorney. This is just my plan. But I don’t think they’ll make me go back, at least not until fall.

               Pure Imagination asked for advice. I indicated that IANAL. She should value my free advice for what she paid for it – free. Saying I’m sloppy is not a valid criticism because I did not hold myself out as an expert – I’m just giving my opinion. Ignore if you wish. Sheesh. And can I say that I hate “Anonymous” posters who hide behind anonymity and add to divisive comments on this board. I don’t need criticism from you.

10. My kids go to a nature camp where they get wet feet when they kayak, etc. Keens (like whatever Newport-type ones are on offer) are great generally, but they don’t like how wet the fabric stays. We bought an additional water shoe, Tevas, last summer because the webbing didn’t really get wet like fabric. But they hated the Tevas and after a day it was obvious I had wasted my $. This year, they are both in adult women’s shoe sizes and it’s time to try again (HOORAY FOR OUTDOOR CAMPS!). Any recommendations? Crocs don’t fit securely enough. We have an REI where I am hoping we can go to try things on but if not there is Zappos. In a pinch, I have thought of just getting 2x*Keens so that they can have Wet Keens and Dry Keens.

    1. Chacos.

       1. OP here. Now that I have googled chacos, they might be the offenders from last year. Maybe Tevas will work? We gave the offenders away since we were moving, but it’s coming back to me now.

          1. I used to wear Tevas as a kid and they worked great, but my husband and a lot of our friends love Chacos and we see them everywhere. I think you’ll just need to try some stuff on.

       2. +1. If they can wear open toed shoes, Chacos are the best. They stay very secure once you get your straps situated, dry quickly, and hold up beautifully. Mine are over 10 years old and look brand new. They’ve been through serious mud, lots of kayaking and beach trips, and a lot of just regular miles walked in the summer.
          I would suggest a break in period before going to camp because the straps can blister a bit before your feet get used to them, particularly when wet.

       3. +1 for Chacos. If you get the kind with multiple narrow straps rather than a single wider strap, they dry faster.

    2. Chacos? I don’t have any but they seem to be popular among the outdoorspeople of my life.

    3. Would any of the natives work? They are more like crocs but fit more like a shoe.

       1. I had high hopes for natives, but they were all wrong for our feet. I even got a blister doing housework, which I swear is not a rigorous activity for me.

    4. I hated the original style Tevas, but found the “Tirra” style to be much more comfortable. I wore them for 2 whole summers years ago when I was a camp counselor–they were the perfect camp shoes. Maybe give those a try?

       1. Tevas were my camp counselor/lifeguard shoes too, but I have no idea which style worked. I do know that at first I wore them velcro’d too tightly (out of fear they would fall off when I ran) and they chafed unbelievably. When I relaxed the straps, they worked much better (and did not fall off). I would see if there are other Tevas styles that might work.

    5. What didn’t they like about last year’s sandals?

       1. I think the webbing / toe loops were things that they could never get quite right. Of course, at the outfitters there were no complaints. [I will say that I don’t believe that shoes instantly reveal themselves to us. I which I were QE2 and could just pay a similarly-footed person to break my shoes in for me.]

          1. Get the Chacos without toe loops. The toe strangulation phenomenon is a known issue, especially for people with high arches. For anyone with this issue who didn’t throw out their sandals, you can actually write to Chaco customer service to arrange a free repair that makes the toe loops less likely to tighten themselves during wear. Or you can tighten the straps so that the toe loop lies flat on the sole and wear them without using the toe loop.

          2. For what it’s worth, Chacos start irritating my feet once they get really grimy, a problem I never encountered with my Teva “Jesus Joggers” from the ’90s. Fortunately, a cycle in the dishwasher takes care of it.

    6. I would check to see whether you bought Chacos or Tevas last year. Can you check your order history or receipts? I’ve had Keens, Chacos , and Tevas. I will be the odd one out and say that I HATED the Chacos. So stiff, and I tried and tried to break them in. The toe loops were a nightmare, and my feet hated them. I tried over a whole summer and they never worked for me. My favorite are keens, but for canoe/kayaking at least, I prefer more of a swim beachy shoe were there’s mesh and rocks can’t get in. I also agree with previous poster that Teva Tirras are awesome.

       1. I am a kayaker/outdoorsy person who also hates Chacos. I find them very heavy for my feet, leading to foot cramps. They’re decent on trails but absolutely worthless in sandy areas, IMO. Will never get the Chaco love.

          I like Keens a lot and find them very comfortable, but I can see how they wouldn’t dry out well. Honestly, though, that’s going to be a problem with almost any sandal that isn’t strictly a mesh water shoe. Could they wear Keens for most of the day and change into water shoes for the kayaking activities?

       2. +1 on mesh so pebbles/ rocks can’t get in. That is the worst.

          I have mesh water shoes that look like regular sneakers. I bought them at a sporting goods store and I don’t know the brand, unfortunately, but I feel like I see this style at every sporting goods store.

    7. Check out Salomon. They sell amphibian sneakers that dry quickly. They are like regular sneakers but also have a collapsible heel to slide on.

    8. What about those flimsy water shoes they sell at convenience stores and pharmacies? Wear those when in the water and change into the regular sandals after.

       1. +1 for water shoes. I don’t find Keens practical for outdoor activity because they trap sand and gravel.

    9. Maybe something from Land’s End?
       These:
       https://www.landsend.com/products/womens-all-weather-sandals/id_331991?attributes=2928,43308,43330,43414,44256
       Or, for a sneaker style, these:
       https://www.landsend.com/products/womens-water-shoes/id_331988?attributes=15233,43308,43330,43422,44256,44474

    10. I’ve recently had Tevas, Merrill, Keen and Columbia. I go to a local sports store or online zappos or amazon and look for the cheapest/on sale. I like the Merrill’s the best – lightweight and flexible. Tevas were ok. Columbia are too heavy as were the Keen’s, but the Keen’s have closed toes for biking so a necessity.

        If you can in-person shop, I’d go to Dick’s or another outdoor store and look. REI has some and you could check their online offers if they don’t have the size/style you want.If online, order several from Amazon. And then make the kids wear them all day (or at least a few hours) inside the house so you can return if they aren’t acceptable. That’s what my mom always made me do and while not perfect, it’s a good strategy.

11. People here are quick to dismiss support staff, which is what sparked the telling to this story. I just got some schadenfreude of a lifetime when a few of my old colleagues told me that the CEO is so incompetent without me managing him half the staff left (pre covid). I’m lucky enough to have a job in my field now so I will never again have to be support staff. But man it feels good to have so many people tell me I did my job well.

    1. No. People here are not quick to dismiss support staff. I’m glad you got a compliment. Idk why you need to insult the whole website to share it.

       1. Maybe she meant at her workplace. I read it the same way as you did at first, but surely that’s not what she meant.

       2. I don’t think it was in insult. She’s not saying have the staff got fired, she’s saying they voluntarily left, pre-covid, so they had options too. She’s talking to the CEO’s incompetence.

    2. I’m glad you were so great at your job and people told you so. But, people here are NOT quick to dismiss support staff. In fact, sometimes there is an oddly opposite reaction, whenever I’ve posted with advice on how to effectively manage time and outsource certain work to support staff, people will respond with odd replies like “you’re never too good for printing and putting together your own binders” which is so not the point.

       I think people here will sometimes complain about incompetent people at work whether it is support staff, bosses or coworkers. If you notice the support staff complaints more then that’s another thing.

       1. +1

       2. Yeah, I remember that one. Sorry, your clients aren’t paying $500/hour for someone to put binders together.

          1. Seriously! I am on the client side now and you better believe I’m not paying first year hourly rates for closing binders. Assign and delegate. And honestly if you do all that stuff yourself, admin at law firms will be underutilized and if/when they die or retire and they will never be replaced by firms. Partners always said to us “use your admin staff, give them work, if you don’t, you won’t have them anymore.”

12. Questions aimed at those of you who do feel comfortable going back into restaurants in the near future. What things can restaurants do that make you feel like they are taking this seriously yet still seeming welcoming? Also, because I am in debates on this right now – are you pivoting to wanting salads and vegetables and leaning healthy food coming out of quarantine, or do you think you will be in comfort food mode for a while still?

    Background to this – in addition to my corporate job, last year I opened a restaurant with my brother in Michigan. We were in less populated area, and our menu was not super conducive to takeout so we have been fully closed since mid may. The restaurant is in the portion of the the state that the governor (surprise!) announced on Monday restaurants can reopen in on Friday. We thought we were several weeks away from this, so probably won’t be able to arrange food deliveries and get all the staff back in 4 days (clearly, no real restaurant people were consulted in this decision) so will be opening next week. Now that I have had my freak out about the speed and timing of this, I am back in planning mode and looking for feedback from people outside of my bubble as they tend to tell me what I want to hear. Between investors and a landlord who has been so far understanding our hand is somewhat forced on reopening. We are running staffing on a volunteer basis at this point.

    1. I am eager to return to restaurants. In my area, the big discussion point is taking away street parking and allowing restaurants to expand dramatically their outdoor seating so that people can be seated distantly. That’s how I will feel comfortable. I have zero interest in going out specifically for vegetables or salad! I want all my tasty old restaurant favorites!!

       1. Are you in L.A.? I love that idea and I hope they implement it!

    2. What I would be concerned about going to a business where employees generally don’t get sick leave is the fear that the employees come in even when they don’t feel 100% bc they can’t afford not to get paid, or they worry there is no one to back them up. So…can you offer some kind of sick leave and advertise that in a list of things you are doing on the door or window? I realize that may not be financially feasible. Temperature checks for the staff before every shift. Stuff like that.

       1. So, I can’t speak for every restaurant, I will say for ours, we are currently paying all employees an average of their prior pay regardless of whether or not they are working and will be continuing that until the end of the month. Our local health dept has provided health questionnaires for staff to fill out before every shift, and we did purchase the forehead thermometers as well. I am hoping the loan we applied for come through so we can afford to have a sick leave plan to get us through until we are profitable again. But you are right, I should add this to the handouts we have to have on hand for patrons.

          1. sorry, end of june :)

       2. I agree with Anon at 9:50. I want employees to get paid sick leave. If you are able to do this, advertise it! I think this is a huge selling point for people to support your business. Temperature checks would be a good measure as well. Also, offer curbside pickup as well if you are to.

    3. For me, I would love a monster salad (probably not a low-calorie item) because I’ve been quarantining at home with my spouse and kids, so I’m not cooking for my palate. I’d love something delicious and fresh and seasonal. Starchy comfort food has releaved that the COVID-15 is a thing. But I’d like also maybe ice cream with berries or a seriously good pie. I just don’t need any more pizza, mac+cheese, etc., which I love but am sort of over by now. Bring on the wilted spinach and vegetable plates and maybe some tapas-style things. Things my kids wouldn’t eat. I hate breaking my work routine to make lunch but I will be damned if I am cooking two lunches.

       1. Omg yes, I want a ginormous plate of charcuterie, cheese, local fruit, honey, and homemade crackers. With a vat of cold white wine. Please and thank you.

          1. I want a good old-fashioned restaurant burger and sweet potato fries! I’ve eaten healthy in quarantine (actually lost some weight), but if I’m going to a restaurant, I want an indulgence.

             Safety wise, I’d prefer if servers were wearing masks – yes, I know it’s a bit harder to hear (and I have seen/read that some restaurants aren’t allowing servers to wear masks), but I think it’s prudent and probably better optics for the restaurant.

    4. I think a balance of the tasty comfort food stuff along with ‘fancy’ healthy food – I can make vegetables at home. But I would love a salad of locally sourced produce with puffed crisped rice, grilled shrimp, fruit, fancy vinagrette, etc. (with a side order of rosemary Parmesan fries pls!). In our house we call those the ‘mom and kids’ places – lots of classic food for those who want it (burgers, chicken fingers, etc.) but a few really well thought out healthier options (grain bowls, poke, big composed dinner salads, etc.) beyond just ‘well, we threw a garden salad on there!’

       1. Ugh, your descriptions sound heavenly.

    5. So I’m eager to get back but only based on my personal risk assessment, which includes low case numbers. If I’m feeling like the activity is one that I’m okay with, extra measures aren’t going to make me any more or less likely to go do it. That said, I think restaurants in my area will be doing temperature scans of patrons before coming in (but I think it will be ages before here allowed to reopen) which I’m okay with and kind of like the idea of turning away people with a fever (although I realize this is imperfect, asymptomatic people exist, etc.). On food, I never go out seeking comfort food specifically (not that it stops me from occasionally ordering it), so I’d find a menu that’s healthier more appealing, but I’m in Northern California where this is more of a thing.

    6. Comfort food. This isn’t about dining in, but I hope it’s useful anyway. I don’t feel comfortable going back & maybe people’s willingness to go out will fluctuate for some time. So I think continuing to focus on takeout/takeout friendly food would help. Maybe have some specials available for takeout only (or a dessert takeout to keep people from staying a long time). Set up takeout so it can be picked up without exposure to a lot of people.

       1. I see you actually haven’t done takeout in the past, but maybe now would be a good time to start with a few takeout specials or add on items to boost sales … dine out at our restaurant one night and dine in with our takeout special the next night? Or pop by for our dessert pastry anytime? Or go home with something for breakfast the next day?

          1. Oh I would LOVE that! Grammercy Tavern used to (still does?!?) send diners home with delicious coffee cake muffins on your way out. As a kid in NY a lot of diners on Friday nights would send you home with a free Challah (which inevitably in our house, means French Toast for Saturday mornings!)

    7. I am eager to go to restaurants for things I can’t quickly cook at home — huge salads with fancy ingredients, crab cakes, burgers with insane toppings and fresh brioche buns, perfectly crisp french fries, etc.

       The thing that holds me back is the restrooms. I have a tiny bladder and usually can’t make it through a meal without a break. And I can’t see myself being comfortable in a public bathroom anytime soon.

    8. I want fresh, seasonal food pretty much always and never had any trouble getting fresh produce throughout SIP (major city but not a hotspot). I am not sure what made the collective decide that a public health crisis was the time to switch to a flour-based diet, but to each their own. If your restaurant has some comfort foods/customer favorites it is well-known for, I would be sure all those items are still on the menu because I think people will want to return for what they’ve been missing while you were closed.
       As to signals that will make me more comfortable — Here is my dream list: No cramped waiting areas – reservations are ideal but lines outside or a wait and we’ll call you from your car system, depending on specifics of location. I am most comfortable with outdoor seating. Indoor seating should be staggered and positioned so the next table is not downdraft, so figure out the air circulation in your place. That may mean all the tables are on one side of the restaurant (I am assuming your capacity will go down). Ideally, people will be seated parallel to the people at the next table, so they are spitting on their own party and not another, but that is not always feasible. Waitstaff should wear masks and, ideally, glasses too, even if non-prescription (but goggles would be off-putting). I want to see a clean bathroom that is being checked and cleaned regularly. No linens that stay on the table. Condiments are served in single servings, whether packets or ramekins. I want to see a clear table when I sit down or as I am being seated, then bring out utensils and glasses, and provide salt/pepper/condiments upon request. Disposable menus or visibly wiping them down between use. No tolerating bad behavior from guests trying to undermine precautions. I have heard horror stories from service industry folks currently working in my city (attacking them for wearing masks, spitting on a credit card before handing it over, refusing to distance from staff, etc.) Those people need to be invited to leave. Turn tables more quickly if you can without discouraging customers — if the asymptomatic spreader stays for 90 minutes it will be way worse than if he is there for 45. And don’t seat parties who arrive at the same time near each other, if you can. I want to sit down near people almost finishing and have a new party sit down in the middle of the meal, not sit next to the same party for the duration. (I know this is intense; as I said, it is the wish list and only a few places could ever accomplish all of this.)

       1. I’m going to go ahead and say, let’s be pro goggles. Fake glasses would be absurd and a weird expense for waiters/restaurants to shoulder.

          1. I’m not seeing a major price difference. But I think restaurants are concerned about walking a line between messaging concern for safety and welcoming their customers, so I think glasses are a good compromise here — safety glasses or nonscrip regular, depending on where on the line the staff and management want to land. But if you really want this to play out like a sci fi movie, boycott all businesses not employing goggles.

             1. Well, if it’s the same price, let’s pick the safer option for employees who can offer you the same great service as they would in a less protective but arguably more attractive pair of glasses. If you’re uncomfortable about it, you can contemplate why exactly you think the staff should take on more risks in order to meet your approval.

    9. I want:

       – Information online that tells me all the stuff you’ve written about how you’re looking after the team and all the other safety measures
       – a restroom/handwashing set up that works (including things like how I get in and out of the room – maybe a hand gel dispenser outside the bathrooms as well as soap inside them?)
       – food I can’t/ don’t know how to cook myself. Fish, salads made with little bits of lots of things (a pain to make at home), that kind of thing.
       – to sit outside

    10. For food, I am totally craving large, complicated salads. The weather is warming up here, and it will be nice to have something tasty, light-ish, with more ingredients than I have the patience to prepare/keep at home. For the operations side, the e thing I would most like to see, since I like to sit at the bar, and want the bar to be open, would be fewer bar stools to allow some distancing, and the ability to make a reservation for bar seating. I would be happy to make a reservation, and would even be cool if it came with a time limit (1.5 hours maybe) so others could have their turn.

    11. Whether the mercury says it or not, it’s summer, and I want fresh and healthy food – especially seafood. (I’m on a coast, so seafood is common – I don’t know what normal summer food is for Michigan.) And ice cream cones :)

    12. To be honest, and this is just one person’s opinion, I would not be comfortable dining in at a restaurant for the foreseeable future.

        We are trying to support our favorite restaurants with takeout. I’m sorry that hasn’t been an option for you during the shutdown, but maybe once you’re staffed and the kitchen is operating for dine-in customers, you could offer a limited take-out menu? We use delivery services like Caviar and Postmates and UberEats.

        1. Are you aware that restaurants generally lose money with those delivery services? I was horrified to find that out so now we are picking up our own takeout. We pop the trunk and they put it in and boom!

           1. The restaurants we’ve been using are exclusive with the services. They don’t want the general public coming by even for curbside. I notice their delivery menu prices are higher so maybe they’re making it up this way.

              We did try curbside with a couple of places but unfortunately it was not pop-the-trunk smooth – one guy came and knocked on the passenger window and insisted we get out of the car, another place didn’t answer their phone when we got there so we had to go inside- but maybe places are learning how to do it better? We don’t want to repeat the experiences we had.

           2. Why do they sign up to be on the platform then?

        2. I agree with this. I stopped doing delivery in mid March just because I’m not comfortable with the risk. Most people in my area are still doing delivery and takeout which is fine for them. I don’t know when I’ll be comfortable sitting in a restaurant for dinner, drinking off of glasses that someone else just touched. I worry about the plates, cutlery, menus, etc. As much as I miss my bars and restaurants, I don’t know when I’ll actually go to one again.

    13. Not exactly what you’re addressing, but if you’re not on facebook/instagram, you should be! I’ve been checking my favorite restaurants and bar’s instagrams/stories to see how they’re doing. That would be a great way to announce when you’re opening again and promote all the good you’re doing!

    14. It concerns me a little that you’re asking about what kind of food I’d like to eat now, which makes it seem like you’re wanting to alter the menu to make it most attractive to customers. I can see maybe adding a dish or two of a certain kind, but these days I’m not going to a newly reopened restaurant because they have a new menu. I’m going back to places where I know I like the food, and miss it. So my advice: cook what you are known for and what your customers have always loved from you. IF you’re so new that your concept and menu hasn’t yet gelled and you don’t have a base of customers who know and love you, then yes, a retooling might be in order.

    15. I’m really eager to go to a restaurant, and we plan to go to one this weekend, our state only allows outside seating. For food, I’m interested in things that I don’t make at home because of the ingredients. For example, a salad I like requires cranberries, and I’m not going to make it because I have no other use for cranberries. Secondly, I’m going to watch to see if the team working is comfortable with the new procedures and appear to be in good spirits. If your team is comfortable, I will be too. I don’t know if you serve alcohol, but I’m really looking forward to a drink that someone made for me!

    16. If you have the space, I’d 100% rather eat outside, even if it’s in the parking lot. I don’t plan to eat in restaurants any time this summer.

        I need medicinal imaging and looked through a bunch of websites and some outlines what they were doing and others didn’t. Guess what I picked. I’d echo masks and goggles for staff.

        Digital memos. You could also get creative – project it on a wall?

        I’d like complicated salads (like someone above), seafood, and things that are hard to make at home. (Does it require a wood fire grill – perfect. Does it need a fryer?- great!)

        Id consider selling food to reheat at home, people are going to be making fewer trips, let your restaurant serve multiple meals.

        Good luck!

13. Good morning! Any suggestions for a lip gloss that stays please? I LOVED Dior’s Plastic Gloss and can’t find anything similar (they discontinued it years ago). High shine, lots of pigmentation, staying power, no feathering. More for a big meeting or night out than Buxom, my usual go to. I’m hesitant to blindly splurge on something like Chanel or YSL, the E.L.F. I tried doesn’t cut it. Any suggestions? Thanks!

    1. I don’t know if this qualifies as a gloss, but the two-step Chanel Le Rouge Duo Ultra Tenue is my go-to lip color. It stays on and stays glossy, and doesn’t fade unevenly.

    2. YSL Glossy Stain. It’s terrific.

       1. Yes, I forgot YSL Glossy Stain. It is very good stuff but for me, the Chanel edges it out.

    3. Covergirl outlast. For the price, you could at least try it. If you want it shinier than what the topcoat provides, use vaseline.

       1. Thank you all so much! I’m going to check these out. I’ve heard great things about YSL gloss, not so much about Chanel but this insight is great and the two-step process sounds neat. And I do like Cover Girl’s mascara so…THANKS everyone!

14. Has anyone cut their own hair or had a spouse do it? Any tutorials on YouTube you liked? My long hair has long layers and feels scraggly, I’m wondering how bad a straight cut would look compared to this.

    1. I did it, including before the pandemic, by putting my hair in a ponytail, sliding a second hair tie down towards the end, and then chopping off the hair below the tie. It worked ok enough for me.

    2. I did it. I have shoulder length wavy hair. I was feeling a bit overconfident, having just done my husband’s and son’s hair and should have done more preparation but honestly, I’ve paid for worse haircuts (looking at you, terrible SF salon that gave me a mullet). It’s a tiny bit longer on one side but if I part it on the other, you can’t really tell. And it’s so much lighter and healthier with a big chop.
       Do it, we’re all going to have weird hair and luminous skin anyways.

       1. My skin looks GREAT. My hair does not match. I am seriously tempted to do the “put it in a ponytail and chop the ends” thing because my lob has grown out wonky over the last 10 weeks and I have several straggly pieces that are sticking out. I feel like it would look better, not perfect but better, if those were gone.

          1. Right? My skincare routine is great, hair, eh….

    3. I follow the blogger Save Spend Splurge. She has cut her own hair for years and I think linked to some tutorials. I haven’t dared to try it myself but her hair looks great.

    4. I did it before the pandemic, but I have wavy hair that doesn’t need to be straight across. Also put it in a ponytail like the other commenter and then chopped the scraggly ends. It actually worked really well for me. Tons of youtube tutorials based on hair type. One suggestion – buy dedicated hair scissors. They are not expensive and using regular scissors doesn’t look right.

    5. I’ve cut my slightly wavy (2A) hair for years. It’s usually between shoulder length and 4 inches longer. This slightly wavy hair type is probably the most forgiving.
       https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/beauty/hair/g23602022/how-to-cut-your-own-hair/
       Here are some options, I’ve also done what PI describes. I would suggest to start with the first video, a basic method to practice handling the scissors etc. And only take off a tiny amount, like a quarter of an inch or so. This is just to ease into it, and you can always cut off more. I usually just trim ends like that or use the method of ponytail bent over for some layers, as one of the other videos describes.

       1. Not OP, but Thanks for the link

    6. Small Things Blog did a YouTube video on cutting your own hair.

    7. Any suggestions for videos on how to de-mulletize a pixie cut? The only DIY pixie videos I can find show how to do an undercut with clippers, which is definitely not the look I’m going for.

       1. My husband used clippers on the back, I think with the #2 and #4 guards, and I used a Tinkle hair cutter (not the face razor!) on the front and sides to thin it out, with some scissors on the front. There’s a couple of videos about the hair cutter, and it’s cheap.

       2. Look for videos of how to cut the back of guys’ short hairstyles. It usually involves clippers and multiple different guards from longest-shortest.

    8. I cut 8 inches off my super long hair because I was DONE with it and wanted it to be shoulder length again. I cut it in layers. I pulled up the top half and did the bottom half first. I parted it in the back and pulled it forward like I was making low pig tails. I wore a sweatshirt with the hood cut off and used the line where the hood was cut off as a general marker of where I was going to snip the hair. I used household scissor and that was HARD. I recommend getting real scissors. I did some face framing layers in the front by just guestimating where I was cutting. I cut my hair in half inch sections probably so if they aren’t all even it just looks like layers. I love it but the right side is shorter than the left and I will eventually get it fixed before returning to office work.

       1. I think you posted this before in response to a different comment, but I loved it then and I love it now. So gutsy. I hope my daughters have this kind of moxie.

          1. Thanks! It was so primal and exhilarating! Weirdly empowering.

    9. I always cut my 17 yo son’s hair, with is a men’s short cut, longer on top. No clippers. I use scissors and a comb. I learned from watching my own hairdresser handle the scissors and comb.

       1) start with wet hair
       2) take your time
       3) cut small amounts each cut

       Use your fine toothed comb to take a small section of hair and pull it outward or upward from the head. Comb with your right hand and then hold that section between the first and second fingers of your left hand. With the right hand cut straight across with your scissors parallel to and just below your left hand fingers. Repeat all over the head, comparing sections from the right and left side to make sure you’re getting the same length.

       For layers, pull the sections straight out and make your cuts with your scissors pointing up or down (perpendicular to the floor). For a blunt cut, pull the sections down and cut straight across, parallel to the floor.

       Either way, small sections. For a long blunt cut, put most of your hair up and start with a thin section from the base of your neck. Then bring down small sections and match the first cut. Once you have the length you like, you can go across and make layers by holding vertical sections and cutting perpendicular to the floor.

       If you do it right, it will take some time and your bathroom or kitchen floor will be a mess, but at least if you make a mistake you’re making a small mistake.

       1. For long hair, I think a dry cut is better because wet hair is obviously longer than dry hair. I straightened mine first too.

          1. The point of having wet hair is that for no -curly hair, being wet straightens it for you. That’s why 99% of hairdressers cut wet. My hairdresser then goes back and does minor trimming/ correcting after she she dries it.

15. TLDR version: Should I quit my job and stay at home with my kids for the next few years, when I can afford it financially?

    Full Version: My law firm is fully open (no choice, everyone has to come in) even though the cases in our area have not decreased. Most employees have their doors wide open and no masks. My mother lives with us and is high-risk. My biggest fear is bringing COVID-19 home and killing her. (She has lost several friends to the disease already). My preschooler is really struggling in isolation, but I don’t want to interact with any friends or family outside our home if I spend the majority of my waking hours indoors with maskless people who go out shopping and eat inside restaurants in their free time.

    In the Before Times, my goal was to be a law firm partner. I have been killing it, and I was going to be up for partner this year. Now, I don’t even want to work here, let alone own a piece of the firm. Plus, our largest category of clients is a sector that is being hit very hard financially so I don’t think the firm will fare well for the next few years. In normal times, I also frequently travel to a major city for court appearance and loved it. Now, I have no interest in flying on planes and riding on public transportation all the time.

    Financially – We have two high incomes in a LCOL area and we have lived well beneath our means for years. We already have the cars we want for the next 15 years. We already live in a house that we can live in forever (enough bedrooms, excellent school distrct). My husband owns a well-established blue-collar business with dozens of employees. Me not working means less to donate to charity (our biggest line item of discretionary spending) and less to invest, but no change in our lifestyle.

    I’m applying for other jobs and if I get one I’ll give that a shot if I get one. But I dont, I might call it quits. My husband supports whatever decision I make. He is concerned that I would lack intellectual stiumlation and an external source of validation as a SAHM.

    What do you think I should do? Genuinely interested in all viewpoints.

    1. Oh gosh, I wonder if this is how they say not to make any big decisions for a year after a big life event. I definitely see where you’re coming from but going from partner track to SAHM feels like a big shift. Could you just WFH and see what happens? If you’re really valuable, maybe you’ll force a reevaluation of this very stupid in-office practice?

       1. Back when cases in our area were rising exponentially, our firm issued a policy that stated that attorneys could only work from home AFTER being exposed to covid. I objected and started working from home anyway. The managing partner of my office sent me a harsh, nasty email about it, and copied the managing partner of my firm and the firm’s HR. My jaw literally dropped when I read it, and I’ve worked with some real jerk partners before without missing a beat. The firm also cut off my remote access for a bit. I think they were considering flat out firing me, but then they looked at the numbers and realized that I make them a ton of money. Because of that, I have absolutely no interest in working at this firm in the long term.

          The firm only allowed working from home when all of our offices became subject to stay at home orders, and they fully reopened each office the moment the orders allowed for it.

          1. Good Lord. Now I understand. I would talk to a plaintiff side employment lawyer about your options in terms of leave and requesting accommodations.

          2. If you were to quit, it would be lovely if that e-mail could find it way to Above the Law.

             I am largely indifferent to my firm (my relationship is really my team/my clients), but every time I have said “I am going to be doing X,” they have noticeably never batted an eye. We have a guy who I think only came to the office once to fill in paperwork and has WFH for years because . . . he is a chain smoker. Maybe also a bit odd? I have no idea — I doubt I could pick him out of a lineup.

          3. With this extra detail:
             1) You probably won’t make partner this year or next since you’ve angered management
             2) There is a target on your back so you might as well leave when you want now instead of being managed out after you’ve put your mother’s life at risk.
             3) Unless you actually want to be a SAHM, and not just “not work here” or “not work for now” I’d start searching for a new position ASAP. If you have the level of seniority where you’re up for partner soon and you leave to take a few years off, you’ll never come back to that level as your experience will be stale and you’ll have not portable book of business. That said, many people have long and rewarding careers as staff or service counsel or of counsel role.

          4. Screw them – you should definitely leave these jerks forever. I wouldn’t jump to being a SAHM for the long-term unless you actually want to do that, though. Why not look for another role at a better company? It could take a while in this economy, but then again, some hiring is still going on.

    2. I think you should take your twelve weeks of paid Covid-19 leave. Get the money you can get. In twelve weeks maybe the situation will have changed. Maybe not. Maybe you’ll get let go. Maybe not. But I think it buys you more time and a bit of cash to consider.

       1. I will look into the leave option. Thanks.

       2. Wait, what? Am I missing a detail? Where is the leave coming from?

          1. The Family Leave Act that’s part of a federal program, I believe

          2. Ummm yeah you’re missing a major detail.

             https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/pandemic/ffcra-employee-paid-leave

       3. what are you talking about, 12 weeks of paid COVID leave? That’s…not a thing where I am (US west coast state).

          1. Yes it is if you have to provide childcare because your child’s school or daycare is closed.

          2. It’s a federal thing for parents who have children at home due to school/daycare closures.

       4. This leave is only available for employers who have less than 500 employees. Most big law firms are not covered.

          1. Also, 10 of the 12 weeks mandated by the law are capped at $200 per day (but the employer can elect to pay more, which sounds unlikely, or require/permit you to use other paid leave which could up the daily rate).

    3. I wouldn’t junk a career to stay inside with your kid until . . . until when? a vaccine? That might not be good for the kid.

       Thinking outside of the box, could you take the leave and move your mom to a 1BR flat nearby (so just you and she have to interact) and then help your kid get out a bit more now that the weather is nice? If there isn’t a vaccine for a while, having your mom with you FT will put all of you in lockdown, which isn’t great (and what about your spouse’s job — is he not an inbound risk vector, too?). If I were your mom, I’d feel terrible about what you all are sacrificing and would move to a nearby 1BR for a year or two to avoid that.

       1. I would actually socialize more more if a stayed at home. I have many friends with kids where both parents are at home for the foreseeable future (e.g. both parents work for schools and now have the entire summer off, one working parent who is WFH for the rest of the year + SAHM, etc). On the other hand, I would not see any of them if I am going to the office or if I have to start traveling for work again. I’ve been asking around and my friends (reasonably in my opinion) aren’t comfortable spending time with us under the circumstances.

          The summer day camps I have looked into have announced they are not opening this year, so my kid has no playmates until school in the fall if I keep working.

          1. Your post had a strong “I don’t want to kill my mom” feel. I am really not understanding how quitting your job and going out more would be something you’re truly comfortable with, especially as the world opens back up.

             I think you can WFH this job if you ASK for it (and by ASK I mean tell — my elderly mother lives with us and I need to WFH for the foreseeable future). And then also look for another job.

             SAHM is a noble profession, but don’t do it b/c your first choice didn’t work out. You can work and not kill your mom and parent your kid well. Just maybe somewhere else.

             1. The “I don’t want to kill my mom” catastrophizing is because of my coworkers. My boss recently took a prison inmate’s deposition in person (instead of by phone) and was laughing how close together they were and that there were no barriers between them. She’s also talked about getting her hair done. She is the one who wrote the nasty email. She has not been wearing a mask or closing her door at all. Other employees are following her lead.

                I feel much safer around other people who are mostly staying at home than I do in my specific office. If my office was different, I would not be as worried.

                I am currently looking for another job.

    4. If it were me, I would stay home. Staying home is about a moment in time, it does not have to be permanent (and in my experience does not end up being permanent for very many SAHMs).
       – The concern about your mom is very real and since we may be years from a vaccine, the concern will be ongoing.
       – If you were up for partner this year you obviously have a long track record of stellar work. That won’t go away if you decide to stay home for a couple of years while this Covid-19 thing shakes out. Everyone I have known who had a solid work history, and then decided to take some time off to parent, or care for elderly parents, etc. was able to bounce back into the workforce when they needed to, provided they re-entered within about 5 years of departing.
       – These are going to be strange times for awhile. I think many people have figured out that sometimes in life, there are more pressing concerns than work and I think we’re going to see people making changes to their life to protect people in their lives from Covid, or find more balance, or prioritize things other than climbing a ladder. I don’t think you’re going to be faulted for doing what you felt was best for your family at a time when the world had been turned upside-down, if in a couple of years you decide you don’t want to stay home and you go back out to get a job. Additionally, there are all kinds of ways to get validation and stimulation other than a job. You can try those (which may include volunteering, consulting, personal development, etc.) and if that’s not enough, you can always return to working full-time or part-time.
       I stayed home part-time when my son was young and I have zero regrets about it. Our income/investments and my career trajectory took a hit for awhile, but he’s a teenager now and I am exactly where I want to be, financially and career-wise. He had special needs as a toddler and we got to a point where trying to have two full-time working people and doing all of his PT/OT appointments, doctor visits, etc. was just too much. So I pulled back. I have known many other women who pulled back when their children were young and things worked out okay. Sometimes it takes a crisis to create clarity around what you really want, and maybe that’s what has happened for you.
       I would like to say, you are not under any obligation to stick it out or do something that you feel puts your mom at risk because “you’ve already come so far why would you quit now,” or “what will happen for other women in your firm if you quit,” or “but feminism,” or anything. I heard a lot when I stepped back that I just had to tune out as noise. I made the right decision for my family given our circumstances and situation at the time. If that’s what you’re doing, have faith it’s the right decision.

    5. I took a big step back in my career a few years ago for family reasons and because I didn’t want what success looked like at my firm nor at my closest clients.

       I’m glad to have the time with family, lack of work stress, and to spend time on (related, but unlikely to be very lucrative) work projects when I have the time. However, on principle, I hate to see women stepping back like this when so few men do, though.

       Can you take the special pandemic FMLA leave (which applies to employers with less than 50 employees, unlike traditional FMLA) for childcare, collect 2/3 of your pay up to the cap, and reevaluate in 12 weeks? Or otherwise go on leave so you can avoid the office risk for now without totally quitting?

       1. On the leave, how do you tell your employer that all of a sudden you have to stay home to provide child care when you so far have not been? I’m asking because OP’s employer does not seem inclined to be flexible. And/or I’m misunderstanding the Families First Coronavirus Response Act, and would love for somebody to correct me.

          1. I’m assuming OP’s kid is in childcare/school that is closed due to the pandemic. The person who was covering (grandma?) can just not be available anymore, possibly because she now needs to self-isolate within the house because of the risk OP introduces. I don’t think figuring out a temporary solution to closed childcare blocks ever taking the leave.

       2. I just saw your update on the nasty email. In your shoes, I’d definitely take all the paid leave/partial paid leave possible and generally maximize whatever is best for me. I would immediately avoid the office given the reckless nature of your boss and wouldn’t want to be a partners with people with such horrible judgment.

    6. I would look for a new job. If you don’t need the income, you have tons of flexibility. Teaching LSAT courses? Adjunct at a nearby college? Legal editing work? It’s tough out there for full time career progression type positions but if you have a lot of flexibility in what time of work you’d accept, it really opens up tons of options.

       Become a SAHM if you want to be a SAHM, not because you don’t like your job.

    7. Can you just quietly WFH, or appear in the office enough to be visible? Before the stay at home orders I went in for my weekend catch up like usual and showed up for necessary in person meetings but otherwise worked from home. No one noticed.

    8. I would absolutely not quit. Think of working as your personal insurance policy against all he unknowns of life. You will always need to house yourself and eat and it’s a whole lot easier to do that with a job. You don’t know what the future holds. If all goes well and all you end up with is some extra money, there are worse outcomes. If it doesn’t, you’ll be glad you didn’t quit.

       That out of the way, I’d push you to be a little less of a rule follower with your job. So people are back and you’re not comfortable, if you worked at home before, keep doing it but with more visibility – make sure your secretary can find you, respond quickly to emails, etc., and go in only if there’s something big where your absence will be visible but first challenge the in-person necessity. Wear a mask when you do go in. Advocate for yourself to whoever you need to by explaining you live with someone high risk and can’t take unnecessary chances. Make an official accommodation request if you must (but I think you can likely get there without going that far by just doing what you need to). I get that all workplaces are different but lawyers are exceptional rule followers and if you’re doing your work, even “against the rules” it’s hard to quibble with your performance.

    9. I would not make this decision yet if you’d never previously had any interest in being a SAHM. Is there a current partner that you can raise this with you can advocate for you? If not, I agree with the previous commenter that I’d tell your firm that you either need to WFH or take FMLA leave because you have a high-risk household member. If your firm is like many, they’d rather left you WFH than have you go on FMLA. If they do prefer that you take FMLA, they will grumble over the leave and it might have some impact on your career prospects, but they’ll also be aware of the risk associated with penalizing you for it, so it might be worth the risk.

       If this is a true shift in your priorities, goals, and desires, you’ll still feel this way in 3 months. If this comes from the strain of the current situation, you may feel very differently 3 months down the road.

       If you do decide to become a SAHM, all standard caveats apply: consider how this will affect your own self-esteem (sounds like your husband has already raised this); be aware of the risk associated with going one-income and do what you can to prepare financially as a family (do you have good life-insurance in case something happens to your husband? Has your husband’s business been affected by lockdowns? What are your savings like, both retirement and non-retirement?); if you intend this to be time-limited, make sure you’re being realistic about how it will affect your long-term career trajectory and plan for what you intend to do in terms of professional development/networking so that your eventual reentry to the workforce is more successful.

       I’ll note that I think the concerns your husband raises are often underappreciated and at least in my experience they can have very real impacts. I have a really good friend who is a SAHM who won’t go to law school reunions because she struggles with being around her classmates who are biglaw partners. I have another friend whose marriage broke up in significant part because his former-biglaw wife was just completely adrift without those external markers of validation and it led to a sort of emotionally crippling insecurity. A lot of high-achieving women are mentally trained to look entirely to external factors to tell us we’re living our lives the right way; it’s a hard thing to move away from that.

    10. I would not leave the workforce. I would find another job. I think it’s important to model work ethic, value of earning money and financial indepedence for children. If you’ve never wanted to SAH and hoped to be a law firm partner with that level of intellectual stimulation and working with and managing adults, it’s hard to imagine you’d be fulfilled as a SAHM full time. I think you are having an outsized reaction to the firm not handling the return to the office well.

        1. Thanks for the input. I am applying for other jobs and would probably take the leap if I get an offer if I felt they were screening employees, paying people who needed to quarantine because of exposures, required masks in common areas, etc.

           1. I’m sorry your firm is handling this terribly . I think if you make them so much money and are so successfull you should rightfully take yourself somewhere else that will treat you better. And sure, if you can afford it, quit and stay home until you find that right next role that will handle WFH and pandemic procedures properly. But I think it is too early to decide to SAH in the long term and not look for a next job because firm leadership has acted terribly.

    11. Option C. Get another job. Or start a nonprofit.

        Idk how old your kids are, but mine are 2/4/7 and unless you want to do housework all day long, there isn’t a ton to *do* during a normal day. In the Before Times, I worked about 6 hours a day, totally flexible schedule (sometimes I worked 0 hours and made it up on weekends). My toddler went to daycare part time during the same hours my 4 y/o was in preschool. My elem kid was out of the house 8-4 (long bus ride). I could work, volunteer a bit at school, and do dinner prep. I outsourced housecleaning because I’d rather do billable work than clean my house.

        Other moms in my area with kids my age that are true SAHMs are getting the itch to go back to work / do something else. Some teach fitness classes. One is constantly training for a marathon and runs a charity. One got into real estate (bought up properties to maintain and also sells). One even started teaching preschool at the school our kids went to.

        My point here is that your choice isn’t biglaw at your current place or SAHM. Get another law job. Do consulting/hang a shingle. Take 6 months off to regroup and figure out what you want to do.

        1. I agree with this advice entirely; change how and where you work, not whether or not you work. I was really struck that your post was all about what’s awful about your current law firm (and they are awful! You have all my sympathy), and not at all about why you’d want to be a SAHM. That to me is a pretty strong indicator that you don’t like where and with whom you work, not that you don’t like the work you do, and that you’re not deeply craving SAHM for its own benefits. I’d worry about this backfiring, and then it’s even harder for you to get back into the workplace. And while you can afford it if everything stays fine with your husband’s job, you won’t be able to afford it if his business takes a hit (the economy is going to get more unpredictable, I think), or if he gets sick, or if your marriage falls apart. These are all things that can happen. If you do decide you want to SAHM, I’d encourage you to read Leslie Bennetts’ *The Feminine Mistake*; the last chapter has some good advice for how to do that in a way that lets you keep your skills and contacts meaningfully relevant if you need to get a job again.

    12. This is my honest assessment of the risks, and I mean it kindly: if your child is going to be interacting with other children, I think that presents a far bigger risk than you going to an office, particularly if you can avoid public transit. I don’t see SAHM as a good solution to your problems because your children will still need to be kept quite isolated in order to prevent your mom from getting sick. Maybe if you have one family you can “buddy” with and neither family goes anywhere except the grocery store, it would be safe for your children to interact with that family’s kids. But I think finding that a family willing to self-quarantine like that may be increasingly difficult as more things open up. And I think certainly daycare or even preschool playgroup-type activities raise your risk of getting sick much more than just going into an office does.

    13. Oh, that is hard. Your firm is clearly not handling this well and the pandemic is showing who they really are, but at the same time, I don’t think you should quit working altogether – you clearly enjoyed the work itself enough to want to make partner, travel for court appearances, etc. Also, think of it as diversifying your family’s economic risk a bit. Even if your husband’s business has been resilient so far, business has its ups and downs, and there are sometimes unexpected shocks. (The dotcom bubble? The 2008 financial crisis?) Minimizing the health risk to your mom and kids is important, so I would look for WFH and/ or part-time options if you can find them. Legal editing or teaching?

    14. the people out your firm sound horrible. i’m sure if their name was leaked people might not be so eager to use them for their legal needs. i cannot believe they sent you a scathing follow up email. first of all, document everything! secondly, i would take FMLA before quitting. I sort of agree with your husband’s concern based on the fact pattern, so thirdly, i would look for another job – if you are almost up for partner, you probably have a lot to offer another firm or employer! wfh during covid when you have a high risk family member does not sound unreasonable at all. sounds like a totally reasonable accommodation. in fact, that is what the CDC recommends. i am so sorry that you are in this situation.

    15. Look for a position at a different firm or a fully remote position.

        I don’t think you can be a SAHM “for a few years.” While there are success stories, you’re going to find yourself both overqualified and underqualified if you try to return to the workforce. You’ll be senior and expensive, but won’t have a book of business.

        1. This.

           Don’t leave the workforce entirely because of this, for all the reasons Original Scarlett and others have noted. You can find something that works for you without giving up the security that comes from working.

    16. The thing that immediately jumped out at me is that you sound like an excellent candidate for a career shift in to the non-profit sector!

    17. I was a partner in a law firm, and then GC at one of the firm’s clients, and then I tried being an SAHM when the travel and hours got to be too much. I was lonely and miserable and went back as of counsel, part-time, after three months. Are you sure you won’t be miserable? I eventually found a full-time WFH job. They do exist, albeit without the money and prestige of a law firm partnership or GC position. I was ready to make that trade.

        I think your husband may have a point, and he knows you well. I think I’d stay with the firm and keep looking.

        1. not to threadjack, but how did you find such a unicorn position (full time WFH legal job)?

    18. I have been in your shoes recently. My workplace become toxic to the extent it was affecting every part of my life. I made a lot of money but at some point no salary is worth it. I’m currently on a negotiated severance, for which I consulted and attorney, but I never intended to sue my employer. I just wanted out with a reasonable severance and bilateral terms (like the non disparage goes both ways.)

        I’m not an attorney. I am doing some consulting in my field now. I’m hoping to make it work long term but whatever happens, I could live on my savings, modestly, until retirement. Bringing in any consulting income just makes it more comfortable. My kids are still home but are teens so there’s really not a SAHM angle for me.

        Is there a way you can do a 100% remote side hustle in your field? Work 10-15 hours a week to start with?
        Going from partner track to full time mom is a big, big change.

16. i wish people would stop referring to themselves as being in quarantine, unless you are actually in quarantine. not being able to go to restaurants or bars or school is not quarantine if you can still go to the supermarket, go outside for exercise, get takeout, etc. there are some people in actual quarantine

    1. Yes Yes we all know this but unlike France we don’t have a good word for Staying Home because We’ve Been Ordered to Do So. So you can keep being annoyed or choose to get over it.

       1. My husband and I have been calling it “confinement” a la France (with the proper pronunciation of course! :) con-feen-mon!) between ourselves.

          1. Same! Although a good friend lives in France and regularly texts me about the “con-fee-mon” so I have an excuse ;)

    2. Yeah I’ve thought of this too, but given the number of times I have to reference it there just is no other easy quick way to say it. Shelter-in-place is a mouthful, and not even technically accurate for a lot of the country either.

       1. Thank you!!! The incorrect usage of shelter in place during COVID drives me nuts! I’m a public safety professional and I’m very concerned that the general public will believe the stay at home order is sheltering in place and then when there’s a hazard for which we actually have to shelter in place, they’ll think it’s ok to go in their yard, walk around the block, etc.

          1. Well in my area that’s the name that our local government has put to the orders….

             1. I’m also in the Bay Area and it’s funny they use it. Because to Anon’s point, I think Shelter in Place technically means more like, there is a tornado barreling towards you, and you need to Shelter in Place, ie even if you are in…a Home Depot, you stay in the Home Depot and find the safest spot there.

    3. Well, quarantine is literally 40 days. What is 60+ days?

       I will go with House Arrest.

       1. Having worked in the criminal justice system, I can assure you that this is NOTHING like house arrest.

    4. I hear you, but it’s easier to say than “I’m socially (physically?) distancing, which sort of sounds like business as usual but 6′ apart, which is definitely not what I’m doing. Also, technically, if I’m running essential errands and then sheltering in place for at least two weeks in inbetween, I really am preemptively self quarantining.

    5. Language is pretty cool in that it’s always changing and evolving. Let your groovy self do the locomotion into the trendy slang. That is, it bothered me too at first, but now I think it’s one of the few charming quirks of this moment in history.

    6. I say self-isolation, which I think is stronger than “social distancing” and more specific than “staying home” but doesn’t have the Official Meaning the quarantine does.

       1. Actually, isolation does have an Official Meaning in public health/medicine. You quarantine those who have been exposed, and you isolate those who are known to be infected. Source: I’m an infectious disease epidemiologist.

    7. Ireland was calling it “cocooning,” which I found charming.

       1. Awww, I like that.

    8. We just call it ‘lockdown’ in the UK, but I really like the French version now!

       1. I’ve been calling it “lockdown” too, which is increasingly inaccurate as cities/counties start opening back up. I like the French version. Maybe self-imposed exile? Decameron-ing? Hunker-downing?

          1. I’ve gone with “self-exiled for the good of the realm”.

    9. We’ve been calling it lockdown.

    10. In my state, local and state governments have issued “hunker down” orders. But in general, I agree that it is a losing battle to be upset about the use of the word quarantine.

17. Do any lawyers here have ipads they use for work? I’ve seen markups on ipads and I can’t decide if they’re very handy or if they’re a very expensive toy. If you have one, do you also have the keyboard case?
    Working from home I don’t have a printer so this seems like it could be helpful.
    TIA!

    1. My office uses Microsoft Surface tablets because they run on the same OS as the rest of the office. I think having an iPad would only work well if the office ran on Apple.

       1. Agree with this 100%. As a receiver of iPad markups in an office that runs on Windows, I absolutely loathe it. There are so many formatting issues and general compatibility problems. My colleagues and I joke all the time about secretly stealing the partner’s iPad and smashing it in a field Office Space-style.

          1. I mean just marking up on a PDF – like a digital hand markup. I’ve heard it works better with the Apple Pencil than with the surface. Is that your experience?

             1. The quality of the pen doesn’t matter if the final product is incompatible with the rest of your work products. But you seem set on an iPad so good luck.

             2. She’s asking if it’s still incompatible if you’re using Adobe/PDFs, which are at this point quite universal. Your answer was a little overboard.

             3. Aren’t PDFs universal?

             4. If you currently have an iPhone and email works fine on that, you’ll be fine with an iPad for marking up PDFs. If you want to have functionality to edit word docs or excel spreadsheets, you may want a windows compatable tablet but I’m a lawyer and the main utility of my iPad is PDF markups. It’s totally worth it. I’ve also been trying to transition my notetaking to iPad but have been less successful.

    2. Yes! I use mine basically as my notebook for daily tasks, notes, etc., as well as for reviewing / marking up / highlighting PDF documents. I do not edit word documents on it, but it’s helped me go basically paperless in terms of things that I used to print, or notebooks / pads I carried around. Getting it with the apple pencil and the keyboard case were what really made it a game changer for me. I’ve used it consistently for almost 2 years now. I also use the note app I use, noteability, as a bullet journal and for other notes and lists. The app lets me search all of my notes for particular words / phrases / names, which is very helpful (and that’s searching my handwriting). Again, though, I don’t use it for actually editing word documents, I do that on my computer on the system.

       1. What size do you have? I’m debating between 11 and 12.9 inches.

          1. Mine’s the 11 and works great for me. If I were using it more as a word processor / laptop replacement, I might go bigger, but as my notebook that I carry around, the one I have is perfect and I wouldn’t want it bigger.

    3. Not law, but client facing transnational work. It’s AMAZING. 11 inches is perfect. I have a colleague with 12.9 and it seems cumbersome due to size. I use god notes and my god awful handwriting is searchable, which is glorious. I have different folders per clients, and different “notebooks” within each folder for various client-specific matters. Can’t recommend enough. I do have the keyboard case, and then I also have a DodoCase hard cover with my monogram that goes over the keyboard case.

       1. Whoa, tell me about the DodoCase hard cover that goes over the keyboard case. So, is it basically totally integrated, so you can continue to use the keyboard normally without taking the cover off?

          1. Only downside is you can’t fold it all the way around so that you’ have a single “page” – you’re always writing as if you have a notebook fully open. It took me a little to get used to it but I really do love it.

             Here’s what I ordered:
             iPad Keyboard Case for Pro 11 and Pro 12.9 – iPad Pro 11″ (2018) / Granite Merlot with Monogram

    4. Not a lawyer so YMMV but my ipad is my lifeline. My last one broke unexpectedly and I was ipadless for a few days and was lost :-)
       I use it primarily to replace the stacks and stacks of paper that i used to have. Alllllll the meeting notes and doc markups and I do a fair bit of actual drawing. My daily sheet, notes throughout the day, random things people hand me… all on the ipad.
       Bc of the drawing, and bc I hate listening to people go clickety clack through meetings, I do almost everything with the pencil… all my notes are handwritten, which I find to be faster bc i can use all my weird little shorthand things.
       I can also VPN into my laptop with it, so if I have just 10 mins between mtgs or need to pull up a doc I can do it. Windows office, windows laptop, i haven’t run into any showstopper compatibility issues but I don’t do a lot of coordinated team doc review or anything like that.
       I have the 12.9” pro and you will pry it out of my cold dead hands. So i am a little biased.

    5. I use an iPad with a pen for note taking on documents at meetings, which I save as a pdf for my future reference. I like it for this use. I am not sure I would like it for editing a document.

18. I’ve been doing really well through all of this (essential employee working onsite, which I think is a HUGE reason why I’m doing okay), but I’m just in a rut.

    An anniversary of a relatives death was earlier this week and it just hit me hard for whatever reason (died a few years ago, no other death anniversary bothered me) and now I’m just kind of in the dumps.

    All of my go to feel better activities are not possible now (hang out with family / friends, get a pedicure, go to the beach, etc) so looking for something I can do after work tonight to feel better.

    1. I am so sorry for your loss. Could you call a family member who has lots of memories of your loved one and would be willing to talk about them with you? Talking about memories makes me smile and laugh and feel more connected to my dad, even though it is still sad. Grief is weird.

       I was trying to think about other activities, but all I could think of are the usual things: have a food/drink treat, do a workout if you like that sort of thing, shop online for something special that would spice up your life, do some gardening, do some “gardening,” wink wink – solo, coupled, whatever.

       Here’s my at-home pedicure routine:
       1. Warm foot bath, with good smelling soap. I lay a towel down first and have a bunch of hand towels close by for drying off when needed.
       2. Trim nails with clippers and emery board. Use cuticle softener/exfoliator and push back cuticles with one of those wooden manicure sticks
       3. Pumice on heels and soles of feet. Apply lotion to feet and lower legs. Massage feet a bit.
       4. Swipe acetone or alcohol over nails to prep for polish. Put paper towels or other spacer between toes.
       5. Apply base coat, color, top coat, waiting at least 2 minutes between applications.
       6. Add OPI Drip Dry drops, and wait another 10 minutes before removing paper towels and cleaning up.

       I usually do this watching tv. Not as perfect or relaxing as spa pedicure, and the massage part is definitely sub-par, but I am pleased when I look at my feet.

    2. Sorry to hear and may your relative’s memory be a blessing. I understand feeling down when those kinds of anniversaries pop up, especially when we’re already in a down mood all over the world. Is there a movie or TV show or song you liked when you were younger? I’ve found that to be helpful – been rewatching Rugrats on Hulu (no ads!). Hope you are able to do something that makes you feel better tonight.

19. Not to start an argument, but do you make of the latest drama with Alison Roman’s NY Times column on hiatus? I hadn’t read anything about this since the longer apology she issued. And now poof.

    1. It is interesting to me that so many NYT opinion writers are much more controversial (Brett Stephens, eg) without being on hiatus. I know NYT Cooking is separate, but I’m also curious if this was somewhat voluntary for her so she can lay low for a month or two.

    2. Yes, it’s a weird drama and I can’t help but think if a male chef said it, it wouldn’t be such a big issue. But on the cooking front, I’ve been loving Samin Nosrat. I feel like Salt Fat Acid and Heat has dramatically improved my cooking and I’ve only read 1/3.

       1. Yeah, I agree. You never see articles like this about men.

          1. So we should call rude racist men to task too, not let Roman off the hook.

       2. Multiple male chefs have made entire personalities out of being assholes. So it’s not just tolerated, but celebrated.

          1. But you’re missing what everyone is saying that the problem is not that she’s an a-hole, it’s that she’s a racist a-hole. She’s also not really a chef, she’s a food writer and I would argue that the a-hole tolerance for chefs (who are notoriously unpleasant people) is higher than it is for food writers (although I agree it’s also higher for men than women).

    3. I didn’t even get what the initial fuss was about. Was what she said nice? No. Was it true? Yes. Is she required to say she wants to make the same career decisions every other woman in cooking made for herself? Is she only required to do so if that woman is a woman of color? I don’t like her as a human, but it has nothing to do with her failing to blindly prop up every woman or woman of color.

       1. Wow. I don’t think Chrissy Tiegen nor Marie Kondo need any “propping up”…

          1. Nor do I, but it seems like part of the controversy here is that a successful White woman had some obligation to support those two even more successful women. Why? Men criticize their competition all the time and no one strips them of their work for that.

             1. No one is saying that she needs to prop up WOC. She is the one who brought them up seemingly out of nowhere as if she had an axe to grind. And neither of these women are her competition. Especially not Marie Kondo.

       2. The original interview had her fake-quoting Marie Kondo using bad English. It looked almost like a typo and was corrected in many later versions.

          1. Yeah that was pretty horrific.

          2. It wasn’t a typo because she doubled down and said “please to buy my product” was supposed to be polish, not Asian, and was an inside joke between her and her friends.

             I think that is the lamest explanation ever and it doesn’t fix if for me, and it also proves that she meant to say it.

             1. Russian (or in Alison’s words “Eastern European”), but otherwise, yeah.

       3. I don’t really care that Alison Roman is a jerk. I wouldn’t want to be friends with her, but I certainly don’t think she needs to lose her job because she insulted a couple famous people. The problem was the racism. Why does she single out two women of Asian descent as examples of people “selling out” by putting their name on product lines, when there are countless examples of men and white women doing the same thing, and one of the two Asian women isn’t even in her industry? Not to mentioned she mocked people who speak English as a second language. And her initial apology was terrible, almost worse than the initial interview (she justified mocking ESL speakers because she was actually mocking a Russian person not a Japanese person? Um…what!?!). It was only the later statement (clearly written by a PR person) that was decent. The whole thing was very yikes.

          1. I can kind of get the point with Marie Kondo’s store because her whole thing is to NOT acquire stuff, but Allison Roman is also selling her own branded crap with some cookware line so what is she even on about except being a big fat hypocrite. Yikes indeed.

             1. Marie Kondo is actually not promoting minimalism. That’s a common misconception about her philosophy. I don’t think her selling things is really inconsistent with her brand. Presumably she would tell you that you should only buy them if they spark joy in you.
                https://konmari.com/konmari-is-not-minimalism/

             2. I disagree, her point is not to not acquire stuff, but rather to only acquire stuff that sparks joy.

       4. The problem with her remarks wasn’t that they were unsupportive, it’s that they were racist. Based on what you just wrote, I’m not surprised that doesn’t bother you.

          1. But are they racist? The author of the interview expressly said that she was not making a faux Asian accent and any implications that she did are false. So did you hear the recording of the interview with your own two ears?

             1. Her justification for it was literally that she was mocking a Russian accent, not a Japanese one. Neither is acceptable! And why did she use the broken English only when talking about the native Japanese speaker (Marie) but not the native English speaker (Chrissy). I don’t need the recording of the interview to know she’s casually racist.

             2. +1 to Anon @ 1:40

          2. +1

          3. “White Person finds fellow White Person’s racism ‘No Big Deal’ “

             1. You really, really don’t know me.

       5. it wasn’t that it was not nice- it was actively racist. i would also be super judgy about a male chef who made racist comments.

          1. It was “actively racist” because she directed her remarks at WOC or because of the mocking of the accent/broken English of a white Eastern European or because what? I really don’t think I am seeing a full account and can’t find the full interview so I am asking.

             1. Nah everyone is responding to you with an answer and you just don’t want to agree.

             2. +1 to Anon at 2:48 PM. We’re not here to do you work for you.

20. Is medical intervention the only way to treat a toe fungus? Feels like a foolish thing to ask about even via telehealth right now given the obvious. My toes are painted 85% of the time for the last .. ehrm… decade? They’ve been polish free for two months and it’s becoming very obvious I need to do something about this – super brittle, white nail beds (thankfully not full on yellow nastiness). Tips or tricks, or just telehealth it?

    1. It’s not a foolish thing to ask about via telehealth. The vast majority of doctors are not involved in COVID-19 response and in fact lots of doctors are finding themselves furloughed or even laid off because they don’t have enough work. A primary care doctor or a dermatologist would be happy to look at your toe fungus, I promise.

    2. I would try OTC methods, which is probably what the doctor will recommend first, then do telemedicine if that doesn’t help. Oral anti-fungal medicine is generally to be avoided if possible.

    3. I would telehealth this. It’s probably just calling in a prescription. My mother had this and never got it treated and it’s just been gross for decades. The fix is probably simple.

    4. Some of the color issue might be because of the long term polish use as well. I think intensely pigmented colors are known to dye the nail a yellowish color.
       I went polish free all winter and it took a long time for discoloration to fade naturally, without any fungal issues. I would try some otc options and if those don’t work, then try telehealth.

    5. I would have a doctor look at your toes. I thought I had toe fungus and it turns out I have psoriasis in both big toenails (and, as it turns out, in one thumbnail, which I had always had problems with). Psoriasis can cause arthritis, especially when it’s in finger and toenails, and requires some monitoring. The treatments are different also. My doctor could tell within 5 seconds of looking at my unpolished toes what the issue was; I imagine a telemedicine appointment would work just as well.

    6. I used telehealth for this very issue. The dermatologist that I saw told me that the most effective treatments for toenail fungus are oral and he was not able to prescribe me one because they require lab monitoring due to possible side effects. He prescribed me one topical medication that turned out to be not covered by my generally very good insurance and was incredibly expensive. He did not have much confidence in the back up topical medication he prescribed me, but said to give it a try. This was only about a month ago, so I do not yet know if it will work for me. He also advised me that OTC meds are not generally helpful in curing toenail fungus.

    7. Just another note. If you’re serious about treating it, get rid of your shoes.

       My friend did the oral meds and it came back. Doc said it was her shoes. She got rid of the shoes (not gonna lie, this would kill me) and did several laser treatments and thinks it’s really gone now.

    8. I had this for years before I just sucked it up and went to the doctor. All OTC treatments were ineffective. The only thing that worked was oral medication. You have to get regular bloodwork because the oral medication can have some serious side effects. I’m glad I did it, though. I definitely learned my lesson…. Always wear shower shoes in a non-home shower!

21. Any recommendations for ergonomic chairs that don’t break the bank? I’ve gone through two “pretty” upholstered desk chairs during the lockdown alone and my back and neck are suffering from it. I’ve learned my lesson and I’m ready to get something that is so not magazine/instagram worthy. I just want to be comfortable!

    1. Look for something without a tilted seat, as it will strain your neck. I’ve had good luck with just attaching a Duoback Ergonomic Backrest Lumbar support (made for car seats) to my office chair for the back support. YMMV.

22. I know airlines have to refund you (vs credit) when they cancel your flights, but what about if they automatically rebook you on other flights? Does it matter if the other flights have more stops (in this case 1 stop vs non-stop)?

    1. Yes it matters. Look up the guides on “the points guy” website on this – breaks it down by airline and what qualities of the rebook that trigger certain Dept of Transportation rules that require a refund. I believe that if they rebook a direct into a layover that increases total travel time over x number of hours that is “effective cancellation” and in a lot of cases you do not have to accept a credit you can demand a refund in original form of payment.

    2. I don’t think a cash refund is legally required, but I would expect a voucher or something. If they’re adding another stop, they should add in something extra to compensate you for the trouble. (Something similar happened to my brother recently, and he got a $100 voucher.)

    3. Yes, you can and should get actual cash back for these changes.

       1. Adding – I do not trust airline websites on this. I call customer service, explain the airline initiated the change, and get them to verbally agree to the refund. The websites are designed to push you to accept the changes or a voucher so I don’t click anything!

    4. Last month an airline canceled my nonstop and rebooked me with a layover. Although it took multiple phone calls (and the airline’s attempt to tell me I only qualified for a credit), I finally got a full cash refund for the trip. I would not have booked the trip in the first place if the layover was required and, as far as I could discern, they were attempting to give me an inferior product at the premium price. I was not going to accept it. So I rejected their offer of a credit and continued calling back until I got a refund. Good luck!

23. All I have to say about this post is that my first thought was “at this point we’re all burn(ed) out shells.)

    1. Ha! Yes. My first thought was that the model looks like a young Joan Baez. She’s gorgeous.

    2. This was literally my thought too. I feel so so awful today, and I’m glad this top understands me.

    3. Ha! Love it.

    4. LOL

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