Thursday’s Workwear Report: Sleeveless Colorblocked Sheath Dress

199 Comments

1. Help! I am a first year at a big firm. Mostly like this job so far, but I have had a rough week and am questioning this. I feel like I constantly make little mistakes and know nothing about how to do this job. Billing 200+ a month can be exhausting at times Is this normal?

   I also feel like I don’t know what my exit options are if I throw in the towel or get fired. Not government. Maybe compliance work at some sort at a large corporation? I am in a transitional practice but not corporate, so I am not sure if in-house would be a viable option, especially this early in my career.

   1. Short answer: Yes, this is totally normal. I was so, so miserable and unsure and feeling like I couldn’t do anything right the first year and half that I was an attorney. Because you don’t know how to actually practice law. It’s a rough transition for people that are generally excellent at what they do (I’m assuming this based on you having a big firm job).

      It gets better! You start to do the same things over and over and you feel comfortable with them. As you gain more experience and responsibility, you get (a little) more control over your schedule. This may not be the right place for you for the long term (200+ hour months routinely does seriously wear you down), but feeling like you do in your first paragraph is almost a rite of passage.

      1. Yay, Kat! I love this COLORBLOCK Sheathe Dress, and have lost enough weight to think about buying it! I will ask the manageing partner what he think’s!

         As to the OP, do NOT worry. Beleive it or not, I made more then 1 mistake when I was a first year– it is NATURAL to make mistake’s. THAT is how we all learn to become better lawyer’s. Now, after 8 year’s I am a PARTNER, ad beleive it or not, I continue to make mistake’s. No one is perfect. Even the manageing partner make’s mistake’s (and blames it some times on me). FOOEY!

         So just go back and put your head to the book’s and study the legal angles, and you will do fine. YAY!!!

   2. No real advice, but lots of commiseration. I’m a first year as well, but in house. I can’t relate to the billing 200+ a month, but I constantly feel like I’m making mistakes, misunderstanding things, putting my foot in my mouth (and then dwell on it for days after), and having no idea what I’m doing or why. We’re learning by trial and error, even if it feels like it’s more error-based. I think at this point we just have to learn as much as we can and I don’t know if a shift in career would help anything (you’d still be stuck not knowing things – just different things)

   3. I’m a third year. When I started, I felt like I had no idea what I was doing. I didn’t even know enough to know if I was doing it wrong! Keep in mind, we have articling in Canada so first years here are basically second years in the States, and I still felt that way!

      A friend of mine (who was a third year at the time) told me to diarize in my calendar a time about a year from when I started as an associate to chat with him. We named it “Talk with X about how I no longer feel like a fraud”. And sure enough, when that appointment came up in my calendar a year later…I realized I didn’t feel like a fraud anymore. Yes, I still made mistakes and yes, I still didn’t know what I was doing sometimes. But I felt like I could handle it. So hang in there, you will get that feeling in a year or two. Diarize it in your calendar if you think it would help!

   4. The first year is hard for everyone – you’re constantly making mistakes and misunderstanding things because you’re new, you’re learning this, and you don’t know stuff. It is normal and expected. I know that it’s hard, because folks who end up in biglaw are often both highly oriented to external measures of performance and are used to being high-achieving, but you are now an entry-level employee in a very challenging profession, and the learning curve is steep. The real issue is whether the mistakes you are making are due to ignorance/lack of experience or carelessness/lack of effort. The former is par for the course; the latter is troubling and will eventually lead to you losing your job.

      If you’re worried, go to a more senior person you trust, and ask for her assessment of how it’s going so far. But my guess is that it’s fine, and this is just part of the normal struggle of the first year. We’ve all been there, and it does end, and one day you wake up and you’re a partner and you’re like OMG WTF WHEN DID I BECOME THE EXPERT?

      1. It is SO normal, but that doesn’t make it less hard. There a million things I want to tell you, having just left five years of firm practice to go in-house, but I’ll start by recommending two amazing books that I wished I’d read when I started.

         How to Be Useful, by Megan Hustad
         Great on the Job, by Jodi Glickman.

         Okay, and also: don’t make the common mistake of letting endless work demands make you think you don’t have the right to basic self-care, even when you’re working crazy hours. Men in firms don’t generally question whether they are entitled to this, which means that they are better rested/fed/whatevered and as a result make fewer mistakes that are due to sheer being-run-down. My rule at the peak of the crazy hours was that at least every three weeks, I needed 24 hours- waking to sleeping- without working. Even if that meant I worked longer the day before and the day after. Without that, I would start to sign my name Princess Sparkle on pleadings or forget to run spell-check.

         And take heart!! You started in biglaw to get the crazy, excellent training that you get as part of going through this tough thing. It will, I promise, set you up to do cool other things, in-house or somewhere else.

      2. +1. It’s hard learning stuff, and that’s totally normal. You will make mistakes, and if you’re good, you’ll learn from those mistakes and make different mistakes next time. All of this helps you develop experience and confidence.

      3. It is not my experience that one becomes an expert when one makes partner. But it is my experience that many new partners believe they become competent/expert/brilliant/correct upon making partner.

   5. I feel you! I’m in the same boat. And I literally called my sister who’s a nurse this morning, asking her how you know whether you’re having a stroke. (Turns out I’m not having one, just incredibly stressed out.) I do trust that it will get better, once we have more experience.

   6. Not big law, but I think this feeling is very common. I spent the first year or so convinced that sooner or later the ethics board would carpool to my office and yank my license off the wall for incompetence. You’ll make some mistakes, you’ll correct your mistakes, and it will get better.

   7. Late to the party here, but just wanted to chime in and say, yes, this is totally normal for at least the first 2 years. One of the key things you need to do as as junior associate is to show improvement. Everyone expects you to make mistakes, but they also expect that you learn from them. So if you receive comments on a draft, keep a running list of edits you should remember for next time – even teeny things like “partner X likes everything right justified” matter.

      And please, take time for yourself. Figure out when the people you work with work – early risers? Night owls? Make sure you’re available during the times when you expect them to be emailing you so you develop a good reputation for responsiveness at the start. Hours in biglaw can be unpredictable and intense, but after you develop a reputation as a good associate who gets things done, you will find you actually have a lot of autonomy in how/when you do it.

2. Wow, I love this pick.

   1. I do, as well. It’s really lovely.

3. Etiquette question: Can I text my house cleaner to tell her that we no longer need her services? How much notice should I give? (She comes every other week.) Is it appropriate to leave a parting tip? If so, how much?

   Some context: She has been working for us for seven months and has done an adequate job. Other than the initial phone call to arrange services, we have only texted. We’ve decided to go without a cleaner because it doesn’t seem to be worth the money vs. time saved. She’s very nice.

   Thanks for your help, ladies!

   1. If you called to arrange services, then I would also call to de-arrange services. Just to be sure the message was received.

   2. I’d give her at least a one-visit, if not a two-visit notice.

   3. If you want to soften the blow, make sure to tell her that you will recommend her services. After all, you were happy with it.

      1. +1

   4. Depends on what arrangement you have. But I think one or two cleanings would be fair and to call her and let her know. You would not feel great if she texted you with her notice so I think it is only fair to do the same. Especially since you have said that she’s nice. Time to put on your big girl pants and act like an adult.

   5. OP here. Thanks! And–hey-o—no need for the big girl pants/act like an adult comment. Uncomfortable conversations are a part of life, so is texting. I do both.

4. Beautiful dress.

   I’ve made the transition from Big Law to Small Law and an having a really hard time. I wouldn’t say I loved Big Law and it made me crazy and frustrated at times but I think I thrived on the adrenaline rush and more often than not I came home at the end of the day exhausted but content and satisfied. Even though I was always the kid that detested group projects in school and I identify as a shy introvert I’m realizing that I really loved the team aspect of Big Law and feel terribly isolated and lonely now. As strange as it may seem, I also really miss the oversight and micromanaging. There was something very comforting about knowing someone senior to me had looked at every email I sent externally, and now I find myself paralyzed with fear and unable to do my work without someone looking over my shoulder. I cry almost every day and am absolutely miserable. (Please don’t jump to depression/therapy. I’m perfectly happy aside from work. It’s obviously tied to work, and in fact when I had to take some time off last year for a physical health issue, I woke up every day on Cloud Nine.)
   Going back to Big Law isn’t an option, because I have moved to an area with no Big Law and need to stay here for family reasons. If anyone struggled with similar issues when moving a smaller firm and was able to overcome them and succeed, I’d love to hear your advice.

   1. Here to commiserate. I felt the same way after jumping from big law to a clerkship where I only see my judge 2-3 times a week and have no other co-clerks.

   2. Therapy isn’t just for depression and I agree that you aren’t depressed.

      I know you don’t want ‘therapy’ but I think some type of career coaching or ‘therapy’ would be helpful. Look for someone whose practice focuses on workplace transitions and organization/coping techniques. You may need help to identify strategies to excel in the new work environment. Depending on your location, you may have to look into online coaching to find someone with the right expertise.

      I think a few coaching/therapy sessions would be a more effective investment of your time vs. reading various books on workplace transition and trying to find something applicable to your specific scenario.

   3. How many years out of law school are you? I think that will have an effect on advice. Is it the culture of the firm – very independent versus an open door Big Law office? Do you miss the oversight because you’re afraid of making a mistake? That all seems like normalish stress to go through as a developing attorney taking on additional responsibilities.

      1. +1 to JJ. Being worried about not doing a good job is a normal part of doing something new, and if you can think of it like that, you may be able to take some of the pressure of yourself. The only way out is through. You don’t want to make a mistake so you’re paralyzed by fear and cant move forward, but the only way to get over your fear is to keep practicing.

         I also moved from a high pressure/high oversight job to something where I’m much more on my own– basically handed a list of clients when I got here and I can contact them with no oversight at all. It made me so anxious at first because I came from a place where being less than perfect = failure. You know what? That’s actually not true. Clients are mostly nice, even if I ask a dumb question, I can apologize, and we all move along.

         I also really miss the deep bonds I formed with my coworkers in my last job. That is just not going to happen here (we have no adversity to overcome together, if that makes sense?), but over time you will make friends at your new job.

   4. What about small law makes you feel isolated and lonely? Are you in an office with few people, or is the fact that you’re actually working on projects alone?

   5. I am not in law, but a couple years ago, I moved from a very large company to a start-up. I was miserable for a while, even though theoretically my role in the start-up was my dream job. Something that helped me a lot recently was reading Brene Brown’s book Daring Greatly. I realized that a lot of my anxiety about my job was related to the fact that I felt very vulnerable and exposed in such a small company. Not only did I feel like I was on my own with no one to stop me from making mistakes, but also I missed the security and prestige of being able to tell people that I worked at YXZ Well Known Company. I did a lot of thinking and writing in my journal while reading Daring Greatly and it really helped me re-frame some of my work misery as an opportunity for learning and growth.

      I also struggle with the social aspects of the smaller company. Like you, I’m quite introverted, so I realized that I really enjoyed getting my social time in during the working day and then being able to go home and be alone. At a much smaller company, I would end the day mentally drained but socially unfulfilled, which meant that I either had to stay socially unfulfilled or somehow summon the mental energy to go be social. Neither of these is very appealing. I haven’t fully figured out how to address this, but it has gotten better as I’ve worked at this company longer and made more work friends. If you have other friends in the area, maybe getting lunch during the day or even scheduling a catch-up call with someone from your old job might help.

   6. I can comment on one aspect of this: the micromanaging and oversight. I went from clerkship to biglaw back to clerkship to inhouse. At my clerkships and at biglaw, there was always someone double checking my work. I had the comfort of knowing that it was my job to get it right but that someone else was signing their name. I’ve been in house for over a year now, and one of the biggest shocks to my system was that I am responsible for giving definitive advice to our business folks without oversight. On really big things, I talk about it with my boss, but on so many things, it is my job to read, analyze, ask questions and give advice. Honestly, the oversight was easier and more comfortable, and it has taken time to develop confidence and break those old habits of checking in on the stuff that I can and should just give advice on. The other part of it is that in my biglaw firm anyway, I was told (in both direct and indirect ways) that I was not qualified to give legal advice without oversight. I came to believe so much of that rhetoric, but it was just that, rhetoric and I knew what I was doing.

      My advice on this part of what you are facing: You’ve got this. It will take time to break the habits and break away from the comfort of having someone always check your work. You can stand on your own feet.

   7. Even in small law, there are people there that can help you. You just have to identify those instances you really should get a second eye and where you are just feeling paralyzed because you have never had so much responsibility before. Do you still have an assistant? A receptionist? Is there at least one other attorney in your office? I went from regionally mid-law to small law. Even though my prior firm wasn’t big law, it still had that similar structure that things went from associate to mid-level to partner to client to partner and then out the door. Even emails. And it drove me bonkers. It seemed so wasteful. In small law we still talk among ourselves before we make big decisions even if the other attorneys aren’t formally on the case. For smaller things, I use my associate/receptionist as a sounding board.

      For a quick example, I’m dealing with an overly aggressive and very contentious opposing counsel on a matter that is very emotional to our clients. I drafted an email response but wanted to make sure it conveyed a certain tone. So much can be lost in text. So I had my receptionist read it and asked her how it sounded. She gave me a word or two that came off harsh and a word or two that sounded to soft. You don’t need a law degree to assist with that kind of stuff!

      Also, join local bar groups. I’m part of our trial lawyers association. We have a private list serve and can ask each other for advice. We do monthly meet ups to round table case strategy. Everyone picks a case that they need some feedback on. You still have to be careful about how much info you give out but it is great for some of the more minor procedural issues. My state has a lot of unwritten rules. A perfect list serve question would be – I have to choose between mediator A and B for a business litigation case. Haven’t used either. Can someone send me some opinions off list?

      Let me know if you have any other specific small law questions.

   8. How long have you been at your small firm? I had a similar feeling for a while after leaving Biglaw, but it went away eventually, and was replaced with a much greater sense of accomplishment/ownership over my work than I’d had previously. It feels pretty great to confidently give advice or make an argument without running it by ten people. It takes time to get used to the lack of oversight but you have to remember that Biglaw in many ways is structured to make you feel like you can’t do anything – but you can! I honestly think I had more confidence right out of law school than when I left Biglaw (and I don’t exactly suffer from an overabundance of confidence in any situation). And also, as other people have said — just ask. Just because no one is looking over your shoulder, it doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be happy to answer your questions, especially if you’ve done your legwork and are just asking for a second set of eyes.

      If you’ve been at your firm a year or more and still feel this way, consider a) talking to someone at your firm and asking for a more guidance, b) looking into other small firms that might have more of a team approach, c) government or nonprofit work. I work in government now and while there’s far less oversight there is a team mentality and people with vast reserves of knowledge who are always approachable.

5. So, exit interviews. A few days ago, the advice was to say everything’s fine and lovely; management knows what is going on, so don’t burn bridges.

   On the flip side, I recently spoke with a long-time manager/supervisor who said that she really appreciates (and needs) departing employees to speak up about large problems. Her take was that management does indeed know who the office bullies are, but she needs people to come forward with specifics so they can build a concrete case against them.

   Is it more of a matter of degree (i.e., give the cheerful answer for personality conflicts and low-level garbage, but the dates/times/specifics for conduct that is illegal), or do people truly not say anything, ever?

   1. It’s not black and white. Know your office / exit interviewer. I had a very candid discussion with my former manager, who is a major mentor to me. She knew the move out of my former company was in my best interest. She wanted direct feedback, and because of our relationship I knew I could give it. Three years removed we still meet for lunch regularly and she continues to mentor me.

   2. My husband works under a toxic manager and his department has had lots of turnover in the past 5 years. Every person who left cited this manager as being the #1 reason they were leaving, and a few laid every horror story on the table. The manager is still in her original position and nothing has changed after 5 years of turnover.

      If there is a precedence of nothing happening after honest exit interviews, I would keep my answers cheerful and brief. There’s nothing for you to gain, and more than likely you won’t be able to change anything for the coworkers you’re leaving behind.

      1. Yeah, the only time I felt I could legitimately offer constructive criticism was a similar situation – so I just didn’t, because the person in question had been there for 20 years and had been continually moved around (eventually supervising less and less people in roles with less and less responsibility). I figured it would not make a difference, and I was just ready to get the hell out at that point as well.

         1. Or is it fewer and fewer people with less and less responsibility? Grammar fail.

            1. My 10-year-old vague memory of AP style says fewer people, less responsibility. Fewer is used for counting things while less refers to a reduction in anything that isn’t countable.

            2. My favorite way to remember: I want to drink less, so I’ll have fewer glasses of wine tonight :)

            3. “Fewer M&Ms; less chocolate.” is the mnemonic I use.

   3. I mean, that’s nice for her, but I’m not, as a departing employee, here to make life easier for a company that hasn’t fixed its problems. I gain nothing from being open and stand to lose a lot. So I stick with vague pleasantries or mention a different commute or practice area and that’s it.

      1. These are my thoughts as well. Sure, the organization you are leaving could use honest feedback. But, you have to look out for yourself in these matters.

6. I need a vacation. Like right this minute before I lose my mind. Unfortunately, money’s tight. Where can I go within driving distance of D.C. that will really feel like a getaway, like a totally different place that won’t cost a lot of money? I need at least 4 days for my mental health.

   And somebody please tell my mother and my job not to contact me while I’m gone.

   1. beaches within driving distance? I default to beaches for relaxation but YMMV.

      No specific suggestions but maybe start by looking at a cell phone coverage map from your provider and then look for accommodations that are in the no coverage areas?

   2. Pittsburgh? Lancaster? Small town in West Virginia with a B&B?

      1. Fayetteville and Lewisburg, WV are both lovely small towns with plenty to see and do. Fayetteville is about 5 hours from DC and Lewisburg is 4 hours away. The General Lewis Inn in Lewisburg is great, and there are several great restaurants and bunch of shops within a few blocks.

         1. Harper’s Ferry is an option, too, though might be closer than you want.

            1. Harper’s Ferry is lovely and close, but feels very far away from DC.

   3. Charlottesville! Four days is the perfect amount of time to take in the full range of my hometown’s awesomeness, from meandering through the historic gorgeousness of Monticello and UVA, to sipping delicious wine and beer while enjoying views of the Blue Ridge, to stuffing yourself silly on amazing local food. I’m happy to provide a more detailed itinerary if you’re interested :)

      Richmond could also be a good option if you want more of a city feel. It’s super-mellow and there’s lots to do, but accommodations should be cheaper than Cville if that’s a concern.

      1. Wahoo?

         1. Yes, but also a born and raised townie! I’m elsewhere for now, but Cville is always going to be home and I can’t imagine being anywhere else long-term. Even with all the d*mned people moving in and jacking up the housing prices and making the traffic worse (grumble grumble).

            1. Hi (waving from far up north) to my fellow Wahoo!! I’m a military brat and UVA/Charlottesville were the first place that I choose to live, and to me, it will always have a soft place in my heart.

      2. YES YES YES. I LOVE Charlottesville and the wine and views are amazing, weather is nice now, and downtown has some cute shopping/eating options. Did I mention the wine? There are a lot of cheap-ish B&Bs around!

         1. CHARLOTTESVILLE YES. Husband and I took a trip down there while we were both working very stressful jobs in DC and it felt magical, as silly as that soundsl. Especially in the spring!

   4. If you can swing a stay at either The Tides Inn (VA) or The Homestead (VA), I would do one of those.

      1. Neither is what I would consider inexpensive, but if you could swing 3 days versus 4 from a money perspective, I think it would rejuvenate you!

   5. Eastern shore? Annapolis? Charlottesville?

   6. I’d go to the Outer Banks. It’s a 4-5 hour drive, so a bit far, but it would truly look and feel different than the DC area.

      1. Agreed, OBX or other South Carolina/ North Carolina beaches.

   7. Thanks for the suggestions, everybody, keep them coming!

      I should have specified that the eastern shore / Annapolis / Charlottesville aren’t far enough afield for me. I’ve felt suffocated / like I need to crawl out of my skin with my life for months now, so those places are my usual Sunday day trips. They aren’t cutting it anymore and I need something farther away, more different.

      I actually have plenty of vacation days, and my company has a use/lose policy, so I could happily spend a half day driving to get to somewhere.

      1. Go to Kinston NC. Go to the bar at Chef and the Farmer and never leave. Or if you leave, stay at the hotel that is a refurbished old-school bank. Lots other good start-up restaurants you can stagger home from. Learn to shoot. Go fishing. Enjoy the sounds of nature.

         Kinston NC is an easy drive south on I-95.

         Go!

         1. And isn’t there a brewery close to Chef and the Farmer? I have yet to go, but I hear good things.

            NC beaches are nice, too. Should be warm enough soon, if we stop having weird swings in the weather.

      2. Are you into outdoorsy stuff or cities? If you like outdoorsy stuff and are burnt out on the coast, try the Poconos, or Finger Lakes in upstate NY. A little chilly, but Spring is almost in full swing up there by now! Or West Virginia — it’s gorgeous.

      3. Then Asheville or OBX in NC; Canaan Valley in WV; or Ithaca, NY.

         1. Went to college in Ithaca! So many beautiful hikes/walks, great food and tons of wineries.

      4. How much driving time is acceptable? You could go visit the Niagara Falls, then zip up to Toronto for a day or two, then drive back and make another stop in Pennsylvania.

      5. I’d go to Lexington, VA. It’s not very expensive, there’s a bunch to do (if you want), or you can get peace and quiet (if that’s what you need). It’s beautiful and stress-free.

         1. Yes!

      6. It’s probably not far enough away for you, but as another option for a day trip, I like Frederick, MD. Pretty easy drive from DC, with a cute walkable downtown, lots of antique shops and some cafes, and also not too far from vineyards if that’s your thing, and also near some historical sites. It’s fairly inexpensive.

      7. IT depends what really rejuvenates you. If outdoors is key, I’d drive to Ohiopyle State Park and do a guided rafting tour (I think some go overnight). Or, if you can get on a plane, go to Northern Michigan, rent a car and stay in Glen Arbor. it is my happy place.

      8. How about the Delaware beaches? It will still be too cold for true beach weather, but it’s off-season, so booking a hotel room would be easier/less expensive, and you might find it quiet enough to clear your mind. Probably a 4-5 hour drive from DC.

      9. How about Deep Creek Lake?

   8. Shenandoah Mountains in Virginia? There’s also wineries around there (Prince Michel was pretty good).

   9. Go to Holladay house in orange Virginia. Sharon will make you feel like part of her family and she will send you to great restaurants and cute wineries. Do a day trip to Charlottesville, Jeffersons house and mt pilier

      1. seconded! this is exactly what i was going to recommend when i read your question.

7. Is a 4:30PM summer outdoor wedding late enough to be c*cktail wear? Or can I still rock the pastels?

   And apologize for the potentially dumb question (I’ve literally only been to 2 weddings in my life), but is it true that as a guest, I should go for more subdued outfits so as not to stand out an “upstage” anyone? There’s a really cool bold print dress I’ve been eyeing, but am thinking it might be too stand-out-ish and I should default to the solids.

   1. I like print dresses for wedding guests. They avoid the danger of looking bridesmaid-ish that can arise with some solid dresses.

   2. Agree with anon above! Also I think that “not upstaging” is mostly about not wearing an outfit that looks bridal or like a costume. Bold print for cocktail hour in late summer sounds perfect to me! Have fun!

   3. I get the whole not-upstaging thing. I wouldn’t wear a fire engine red dress for that reason. But a bold print is fine. My rule is “If there’s a group shot including me and the bride, will people be looking at me or at her?”

8. Anyone want to help style me? I just Rented The Runway (Downtown Shine Dress by Cynthia Steffe) for a work function next Saturday and I need shoes! I am completely incapable of dressing myself so am turning to you all for help. I love heels but will be on my feet all night so a comfortable heel is best — but I can tough it out in anything 3″ or less. Trying to decide between nude-for-me, gold and black. Under $50 is ideal but I can go up to $100. (Will post a link in a comment to follow to avoid the mod-bot.)

   1. Link to dress: https://www.renttherunway.com/shop/designers/cynthia_steffe/downtown_shine_dress?email_uid=11414652&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Transactional%20-%20Order%20Invoice

      1. Very pretty dress! I’d do black – I think it would look more chic. The dress trends young-ish (not in a bad way) and I think gold or nude would veer too prom for my tastes, especially for a work event. Maybe black patent? Depending on the weather where you are (like if you are in Florida this would be silly) and the type of event, a distinctive black bootie could look very sharp.

      2. Agreed on the bootie if northern, but could also see a stylish pointed toe d’orsay black pump working with this (and, incidentally, literally anything else you would ever wear so bonus on rewearability)

         1. Or if you have the legs for it, a pointed toe t-strap

9. It made me really mad that a woman had to ASK to be promoted. This is such a lean-in learning moment. Also why I so appreciate some of our resident bada$$3s like cbackson! Keep on keeping on, ladies!

   Wall Street Firms Among Toughest For Female Partners
   By Chelsea Naso

   Law360, New York (April 20, 2016, 8:27 PM ET) — Wall Street firms are notorious for keeping their partner ranks trim, but climbing to that top rung remains even more challenging for women, with less than 4 percent of female attorneys at those firms defying the odds to make the cut, a Law360 study found.

   While female attorneys account for 37 percent of all Wall Street attorneys and female nonpartners account for 42 percent of all nonpartners — which sits close to the respective overall percentages — the share of female partners at Wall Street firms remained well below the overall average in 2015, Law360’s Glass Ceiling report found.

   Of the 8,549 attorneys practicing at Wall Street firms, just 335 — 3.9 percent — are female partners, while 1,463, or 17.1 percent, are male partners. Those 335 female partners make up just 18.6 percent of Wall Street’s partnership ranks, while law firms overall have 22 percent female partnership.

   Cadwalader Wickersham & Taft LLP, Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson LLP and Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel LLP had some of the lowest percentages of female partners among their ranks.

   Cadwalader features 14.8 percent female partnership. At Fried Frank, women account for 14.7 percent of partners. And at Kramer Levin, women represent 12.4 percent of the partnership.

   However, three firms — Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP, Hughes Hubbard & Reed LLP and Paul Weiss Rifkind Wharton & Garrison LLP — saw their share of female partners top 20 percent, and two firms inched above the overall numbers at U.S. law firms.

   Simpson Thacher has a partnership that is 20.1 percent female. At Hughes Hubbard, nearly 23 percent of partners are women. And Paul Weiss has the largest percentage of female partners of all the Wall Street firms at 24.2 percent.

   Although the odds have been stacked against female attorneys at Wall Street firms, there are women who have overcome both gender-related and gender-neutral obstacles to clinch a coveted partnership at one.

   One such challenge for many female attorneys is the lack of female partners whom they can emulate or draw on as they hone their own style, noted Lisa Kobialka, a Kramer Levin partner whose practice centers on intellectual property litigation, a particularly male-dominated practice area.

   “There aren’t lots and lots of women that I can draw upon and say, ‘I’m going to find my style that works for me,’ that are out there. There are some, but there are not the same kind of numbers like men,” she said. “Men, I think, they can draw on all these different men they see in court.”

   Kobialka, who was named partner in 2005 while still at Perkins Coie LLP, often finds herself to be one of a few, if not the only, female attorney in the courtroom when she is litigating technology-related intellectual property matters. With few female partners before her to draw on, she drew instead on her musical career, a passion she pursued in college before earning her juris doctorate.

   “Something I developed my entire career as a musician was getting the same set of notes that someone else gets and making it speak to an audience and being able to read an audience right there and then,” she said. “When I walked into the courtroom, I knew I had to find a way to connect with the judge and the jury. I knew I had to find a way that was going to distinguish myself, to make the best case for my client.”

   Kobialka, like many other female litigators, has been mistaken for the court reporter. She has found herself in situations where her male counterparts are dominating the conversation. She has been misjudged and underestimated at the outset because of her appearance.

   But instead of letting those situations slow her down, she views them as opportunities to truly take control of a situation and command the room’s attention, thanks to a piece of advice she received early on in her own career, she said.

   “When you may be the only woman in a room and it feels very awkward, or the men aren’t giving you time to speak, it’s as simple as taking command of the situation and saying, ‘I would like the opportunity to speak because I think it’s important for my perspective to be heard,’” Kobialka said. “You can use it as a real opportunity, and now you’ve gotten everybody’s attention.”

   While those situations are certainly opportunities to command a situation and showcase talent, it’s also just as important to emotionally let them go once they’re over, noted Stroock & Stroock & Lavan LLP partner Julia Strickland.

   Strickland, who typically represents banks in complex consumer class actions, made partner at Stroock in the late 1980s after working her way up from a summer associate role. She, like Kobialka, has been mistaken for a court reporter and recalls once in her early years being asked to type something by a client who had assumed she was a secretary.

   “I was really a beneficiary of what happened in the generation ahead of me, but I also wasn’t the generation that where it was totally accepted that you had women colleagues that were lawyers, particularly, frankly by older clients,” Strickland said.

   In those scenarios, she said, it’s important to speak up for yourself, laugh about it then move on to prevent them from defining your career, she explained.

   “In life, you have to have a sense of humor because every day is not perfect,” Strickland said. “And people do stupid things irrespective of gender.”

   Women are also not always the most proactive when it comes to networking, a potentially lethal mistake for any person’s legal career, regardless of gender, said Donna Parisi, a Shearman & Sterling LLP partner who specializes in derivatives and structured products and is co-leader of the firm’s asset management group and co-leader of the financial institutions industry group.

   “We put our head down, and we work really hard in college. We work really hard in law school. We get good grades. We wind up at a top-tier law firm, and we put our heads down and work really hard our first few years,” Parisi said. “That’s all true, and it’s all necessary, and it’s terrific, but I think what young attorneys need to understand is at a certain point, you need to do more than that.”

   Women need to disregard the notion that networking involves sales or is only about landing a new job, and embrace the idea that it means building relationships with people and clients, with the emphasis being on helping them achieve their goals, Parisi said.

   And while taking command of male-dominated situations, moving beyond implicit gender bias and networking are essential to earning a partner promotion, sometimes advancement is as simple as asking for it, pointed out Michele Jacobson, a Stroock partner who focuses her practice on complex insurance and reinsurance matters.

   Jacobson was one of the first women at the firm to drop down to a part-time schedule in 1992, following the birth of her first child. Although she was eventually promoted to senior counsel and then partner in 2001 while still on a part-time schedule, it wasn’t until she clearly stated her ambitions to a mentor that she began to be considered for more senior roles.

   “It got to a point in time where others who were not part-time were being promoted to positions of special counsel or partner who were actually junior to me in terms of when we graduated law school,” she said. “To be candid, that did bother me. But I never said that to anybody. I never expressed the view that maybe I should be considered for senior counsel or partner.”

   Jacobson does not recall what finally pushed her to speak up, but she vividly remembers sitting down with her mentor, Alvin Hellerstein, a former Stroock partner and current judge for the Southern District of New York, and finally saying out loud what she wanted.

   “I came out and I said to him, ‘I would like to be considered for special counsel.’ And he looked at me and smiled, and he said, basically, ‘I was wondering when you were going to ask,’” Jacobson said

   For her, that was a pivotal moment in her career and the basis for a piece of advice she gives to ambitious young attorneys, regardless of their gender: Be your own advocate.

   “That was a defining moment, because I realized in that moment that you really have to advocate for yourself,” Jacobson said. “You really need to take control of your career and advocate as much for yourself as you would for a client or a colleague for that matter.”

   No matter how one got to where they are today, it’s important to put a hand out to help the next promising female attorney to not get lost in the shuffle, explained My Chi To, a Debevoise & Plimpton LLP partner in the firm’s business restructuring and workouts group.

   Promoted to partner in 2005 while on maternity leave for the birth of her first child, To rarely considered her gender as it relates to her profession until she made partner at the firm.

   “It became clear to me that there were obviously fewer women at the senior levels,” said To, who is now co-head of the group. “And that’s when I became very involved in our women’s resource group.”

   Her involvement in WRG led to the creation of Debevoise Women’s Review, an online publication tailored toward guiding female professionals into more senior roles.

   And so far, these initiatives seem to be paying off. Over the last eight years, 40 percent of Debevoise’s partner promotions have been women, she said.

   “That’s extraordinary,” To said. “We are really encouraged with where we are.”

   Methodology: Law360 surveyed over 300 U.S. firms, or vereins with a U.S. component, about their overall and female headcount numbers as of Dec. 31, 2015. Only U.S.-based attorneys were included in the survey.

   –Editing by Jeremy Barker and Edrienne Su.

   1. Agreed generally, but I can tell you that men I know *do* ask to be promoted. And they advocate for themselves. My husband is the one that pushed me to advocate for myself – and I’m a successful attorney! I don’t disagree that there are huge issues with women in law firms (I moved in in-house as a result of them, for instance), but I wouldn’t be mad about having to ask to be promoted. I think everyone should.

   2. Ugh I hate that “I was wondering when you were going to ask” line. She shouldn’t have had to ask and if she did have to, her mentor should have been encouraging her to ask, rather than just sit back waiting and wondering.

      1. I disagree here. Why shouldn’t she have to ask? You can be quite sure the men ask.

         It sounded like her mentor was also the person in charge of a promotion at the time. This other (primary?) role as boss means he will be obliged to do the best for the business. Best for business is of course to retain good employees, but if they want a raise, they surely are grown up enough to ask for it?

         1. I think an employer should reward good employees with the promotions and raises they deserve. Not saying the world works that way, I’m saying that’s how I think it *should* work. And I think part of being a good mentor is encouraging deserving mentees to go for stuff like this. I don’t think the fact that he had some supervisory role over her presents a conflict that means he can’t encourage her to ask for a promotion she deserves. And if she’s that great, then promoting her IS what’s best for the business.

   3. Asking was and is the norm for both women and men in many competitive professional situations involving compensation, promotions or client business (not to mention lobbying, pitching and then asking AGAIN if the first answer was ‘no’). My bosses did in the 80s, I did in the 90s and 00s, and I see young women do it as a matter of course today.

      Why is this so surprising/ enraging ?

      1. the outrageous part is that on average, girls and young women are rewarded for behaving the opposite way. Being accomodating, seeking peace, not inconveniencing others. So, first, when they look at the business world and realize they need to learn this new behaviour to be successful, they are behind on this mastering skill.

         Second, the people reviewing such demands, on average reflect society values. One of these values is that women should be accommodating etc. Studies have shown time and again that women are penalized for being aggressive and going against their gender stereotype. This is independent of whether the senior person is male or female. Implicit bias is hard to get rid of.

10. Ugh, I need some advice. I work at a health consulting company where we are project-based (meaning we have to bill 8 hours a day to all our different projects). I overall do not have enough work to do (I only have about 5.5-6 billable hours of work per day), but I do have one project where I need to put in some serious time to get ready for a big deliverable. The catch is that that particular project is VERY tightly budgeted and there simply is not enough room in the budget for me to spend the time I need. I’m now in the unenviable position of twiddling my thumbs during the workday and charging to overhead for 2-3 hours, but then being faced with the prospect of doing all the essential project work off the clock on the weekend. Actually, I’m not sure if I’m looking for advice or commiseration, but either is certainly welcome…has anyone dealt with a similar situation?

    1. 2 things:
       1. Do you have a supervisor who you can talk to to say, this project has not enough time budgeted for it and I am going to go over budget?
       2. If there is no room in the budget to charge the client, why can’t you charge to overhead while doing that project work during your normal days, rather than coming in on weekends to do it?

       1. The project director is well aware of the issues (it’s been a struggle for a long time and we’re ALL super tight), but since she is much more senior, she works 10+ hours a day and just doesn’t charge all of her time (at my junior level, we need approval to charge more than 8 hours a day). The company would be pretty displeased if I charged to overhead to do project work and would insist that we need a contract modification to add more funds. We certainly do, but the client can’t snap their fingers and make that money available.

          Also, we can’t “write off” the charges like in law – we have to invoice for everything. I wish I could just charge it all and then trust it would be written down.

          1. What are you thinking? Stop this right now. Doing work for a client, not billing for it, and hiding it is basically stealing. Do your work during the day, Bill all of it, and let them know what you are doing.

          2. This is a problem between your employer and the project director. Let them figure out how to re-visit the cost issue with the client. Bill your time accurately.

             1. Yep, definitely charge all your time. There must be a mechanism to write it down, but there’s no way it should be charged to nothing.

    2. Don’t work off the clock and not bill the time. Accurately record your time and let the person in change of creating the bill adjust it/write off time if needed. Unless you are senior enough where your realization rate matters more than your billable hours, you shouldn’t take a penalty for a project that didn’t get budgeted correctly or got budgeted at a reduced rate.

       1. The client will never do what is necessary (or your firm won’t try to get them to) if the work is still getting done and the bill is still only for the budgeted amount. Stop working off the clock. Either bill it all or only do what you can during the billable period. That’s the only way to force a change.

    3. It’s actually illegal for an employer to ask you to come in off the clock on weekends if your pay is hourly (and you’re not just billing off the clock). This needs to be addressed at a level higher than you. It doesn’t really matter if your supervisor is willing to eat the time–she shouldn’t be forbidding you from working during the week on work that could be done and backdoor forcing you to sneak into work to do work on weekends. Period.

       All that said, I have worked at law firms that are willfully blind to this sort of budget pressure, where partners are unwilling to discuss the real consequences of them underbidding projects. You will have to determine: is this part of the culture of your office/firm? If so, is it worth it to you to work there and wreck your weekends?

       If your supervisor is not willing to speak about this, then I would speak with HR or whomever handles billing and ask what you should do. The more that you “ask around” about this, the more color you will get on whether this is normal at your workplace/how to best handle.

    4. Advocate for yourself and talk to the pm. Say that you need to do this extra work and to do it, you need to charge X extra hours. They can probably reallocate those hours for you. If they cannot, you can ask someone else to pitch in or see what suggestions they have. Mischarging goes both ways — you cannot charge work work you are not doing and you should not do work without charging for it. It may be that the solution is to charge overhead, but you should get official direction before doing so.

    5. I feel your pain! I worked at a place for almost 10 years where you were expected to be 100% billable but you could not charge over your allotted hours on any one project. The result was either working 12 hour days to get all the work done but only charging 8 or basically lying. By the end I was a director overseeing 6 employees and I was only allowed 5% in overhead. It is the #1 reason I left.
       At my next job we were only expected to be 80% billable and you were expected to charge what you actually worked on and it was up to the project director and company to decide if they would charge the client or not. And usually they did. Shocker that company #1 is flailing and company #2 is growing huh?
       Now I work on the client side and I don’t even fill out a time sheet.

    6. Ugh, thanks all. I know you’re right but it’s hard since I’m the project manager (I report to the director) and I’m the one seeing the impact of people overcharging first hand. There is almost NOWHERE else we can cut.

       In better news, I’m leaving for graduate school later this year and I may choose to never work somewhere with billable hours again! It’s just way too stressful.

11. I am about 80% sure my boyfriend is going to propose tonight! We have been talking about it a lot, looking at rings together, etc. Last week I overheard him calling his credit card coming about his credit limit. He’s said it’s coming soon but that he wants to keep it a surprise.

    All week he’s been saying “let’s go out and do something on Thursday!” We rarely go out on weeknights. He suggested I meet him at his office at his work and we can “go for a walk or out to a nice dinner.” Go for a walk…really? This morning he was up an hour before his alarm, acting a little nervous and jittery and distant. He even suggested I’d have time to go home tonight beforehand to change out of work clothes and walk the dog, so we can stay out as late as we want. For dinner he said we should go wherever I want, my favorite place.

    All signs point to him down on one knee, right? Or am I being insane? It’s just so exciting!! Hopefully this is a moment I will have only once in my entire life.

    I’ve been out sick most of the week from work and have so much to do, but am sooo distracted. Tips for staying focused? Permission to say F it and just sit around grinning all day? What if he doesn’t propose and I feel disappointed? What color should I get my nails painted? Eeeee

    1. Those sound like good clues, gumshoe. Let yourself get excited. And if, worst case scenario, he just wants to take you out for a special night for no good reason, that’s pretty great in itself, so enjoy the night while it’s happening and let him do what he’s trying to do: make a special occasion.

    2. Oh my gosh, this sounds wonderful! I hope it’s what you think it is! If not, it’s just a great evening and he’s being good to you :)

       Please come back tomorrow and post!

    3. This is so fun! You definitely have permission to sit around grinning all day. Like the comments above mention, even if it’s not a proposal tonight, it’s still really sweet of him. And I would have my nails done in OPI Bubble Bath or a similar classic neutral. Or go another direction and do a bright springy coral. Have fun tonight! Please come tell us about it tomorrow!

       1. Seconded on OPI Bubble Bath (Giada’s color), also consider Essie Ballet Slipper (the QUEEN OF ENGLAND’s color)

    4. I thought, but did not know, that my husband was going to propose for about 10 minutes before he did it. It was nerve wracking. I still start shaking again just thinking about it! I am quite superstitious, so I say don’t jinx it by getting a manicure. Distract yourself with work, so you’ll feel accomplished at the end of the day, and look forward to a nice dinner and nothing more – the ring will be a welcome “surprise”! Good luck and please come back and tell us what happened!

    5. Exciting! Paint your nails a classic color like red or a neutral shimmery sheer.

    6. So fun!! When I thought the marriage discussion was in the works I mostly did the “sit around grinning” thing, along with running the finance numbers because we are old and it was more of a negotiation than a proposal.

       Maybe split the difference on the manicure and get a “buff shiny” instead of polish…

    7. Squeee! So exciting. My husband was also so obvious on the day he proposed. He wanted to make sure everything was just perfect. He planned all of my favorite things and kept asking if I was having a good day. Then he wanted to go out to dinner and be home in time to watch the sunset. He still wanted to go watch the sunset on the beach even though it was cloudy… I totally knew what was up so I put on a cute (but not trying to hard) dress.
       Aww, it makes me giddy just thinking about it. I agree that you can just grin and act like a fool. The build up that day was so exciting. I hope you get to enjoy it too. I vote for a neutral soft pink, like a french manicure minus the french tip.

    8. I suspected my now husband was going to propose at some point, I had my nails painted nude and then later that week got a deep red (it was november) which looked pretty with my skin and made the ring stand out. I think any color will be pretty.

12. Ooo, I really like this dress. The cool,serious colors help offset the geometric blocking pattern. It’s a little bit like the side panel trend, which I shy away from bc that feels like an unconvincing trompe l’oeil on me (hey everyone, my body is the size of the skinny center panel!). Can anyone tell if the dress is a ponte or knit? That kills me because I generate pills on me clothes llike crazy.

    1. It looks like the gray part is a suiting type fabric (not wool, but the standard CK approximation) and the rest is more like ponte. I love the look and the colors but the fact that it looks like the fabrics are so different makes me question how good this will look IRL. If you google, there’s a red version of this and that one looks like ponte all around and, like you, I tend to avoid that b/c of pilling.

13. Please help me decide if I should take a job offer or go back to school!

    Does anyone have experience with tough career decisions right out of university? I am about to graduate with a BA in Economics and Politics and I’d love to do work that involves policy research/ drafting, advocacy work, lobbying, etc…basically I love researching, drafting papers, being engaged in politics, that kind of thing. However I haven’t been able to find a graduate job in my field.

    I have been offered a place on a corporate banking graduate programme. It pays extremely well (for my area) and offers a lot of job security, but part of me wants to do a Masters in public affairs (I’m in Europe so can pay out of pocket) and try to find politics-related (NGOs, etc) internships and then work my way up.

    With the way the economy is going right now, I don’t know if it’s smart for me to turn down a well-paying job to pursue my dreams of “making a difference”. At the same time, I’m only 20 and feel it’s way too early to give up yet, and if there was ever a time to be unemployed or underpaid, better to have it now than when I have a crisis after a few years of working in a sector (banking) I may very well hate!

    Any advice? Would especially love to hear from women in finance…also exit options?

    1. This seems really easy to me. Take the good paying job. Learn how to do it well. See if you like it. If, in 2 years, you hate it, go back to school then. At “only 20” the dream job you described is basically being a college student. At least give professional life a shot. You’ll learn valuable skills.

       1. +1. Professional experience is always so valuable. I worked for 7 years before going to law school.

          1. Agreed!! I did this and do not regret it for one second. I’ve now learned all that I can from the job, and with three years of work experience behind me, am going back to school for a master’s in September. The best part is that the professional network I’ve developed here will help me transition back into the workforce when I’m done.

          2. Yes, I think it’s SO beneficial to both gain professional experience and to get a feel for what would be a good fit for you in the long run. you don’t want to sink a bunch of money into a degree you end up not wanting to use.

       2. +1
          School will always be there for you to go back to. I’ve noticed, in general, that young people & recent college grads severely, severely undervalue job experience compared to education. The world is not an academic environment — 9 times out of 10, your academic achievements are not going to land you your dream job. More than degrees, you need luck, and you need demonstrable skills and work experience that speaks to them.

       3. Thank you all for replying, it’s so nice to have advice from professional women who have more experience than me!! My parents are from another country and don’t really have recent “corporate” experience so they can’t help me that much. It’s true that I’m having a hard time assessing how valuable work experience vs. education would be – especially if the work experience is not in the field I’d like to go into eventually (banking vs. lobbying). It’s very reassuring to hear that no matter what, the skills I gain in banking will help me later and I can always go back to school! Where I’m from it’s most common to study for a long time (BA then 2 masters) and then start your professional life, but I’ve emigrated now :-)

          1. Go into ‘do gooder’ work. The terrible salaries that get you started are only tolerable when you are young! However as you get more experienced and your pay improves and you get to do work with a sense of moral purpose, it’s such a privelege.

             Work experience can be gained while you study and years in an environment you didn’t want in a job you don’t care about an be soul crushing if you have another calling.

       4. +1 go for the job, get some experience under your belt. Work experience makes your education that much more meaningful and valuable. I went straight for my masters, but worked for 7 years before getting my PhD and I am so happy I did. By the time I started my PhD I knew exactly what I wanted to get out of the program. I already knew what I was going to write my thesis on!

    2. I’m in a very similar boat to you – about to graduate from a similar degree course in the UK.

       I’ve made the decision to go for the corporate banking, on the basis that two or three years in, I will be better placed to make the jump into whatever it is I do want to do – that said, I’ve picked the part of corporate banking that I am actually super interested in! I did an internship with the finance company I’m going to be working for and really loved the work culture. Also, remember that if you did for example accountancy qualifications, even NGOs and thinktanks need accountants. You could then go into the politics world doing a more ‘solid’ transferable job.

       What I mean is that three years doing a serious grown up job will look good on your CV no matter what. You can keep your lifestyle costs low and save a ton, which will really help if/when you do a Masters and with the inevitable years of low paid internships afterwards.

       If you want to chat via email I’m at tinea at hotmail dot co dot uk :)

       1. Thanks so much for sharing! Looks like we have quite similar backgrounds. And good point re: NGOs and think tanks needing people with hard skills! So far I haven’t even managed to score interviews with the organisations I’d love to work for one day (women’s rights advocacy NGOs and the likes) when they advertise vacancies for policy assistants and other roles ‘at my level’. Maybe the way to end up working ‘for the public interest’ is to gain as many hard skills as I can and then find how to apply them to an organisation whose mission I really believe in?

          1. “Maybe the way to end up working ‘for the public interest’ is to gain as many hard skills as I can and then find how to apply them to an organisation whose mission I really believe in?”

             Yes, a thousand times this. That’s what I’m trying to say below.

    3. I share your dreams of making a difference. The thing is, you often need skills and money to be able to make a big difference. This job will help you develop both and you’ll be in a better position to make your difference moving forward than you would if you’re just another twenty-something with a graduate degree in a field like that.

       1. Thank you for replying – I like how you present it, it’s true that at the moment I am just one graduate with no particular skills but if I gain professional experience through the banking job I could actually have enough skills to find work where I make a difference! I suppose it’s comparable to Biglaw associates who pay their dues with the later goal of working for the government/nonrofits? The issue with the finance industry is that ‘exit’ options seem less obvious…although, I would love to work for a central bank but I think they would rather hire economists?

          1. Someone on my course has been hired for the Bank of England, so you don’t have to have studied pure economics to do that.

    4. Agreed with everyone else – definitely take the job. I’ve been working since leaving undergrad 3 years ago and will be going to graduate school this fall and although I had several internships and assisted in research in college, this is my first ~real job that has challenged me. I’ve grown so much professionally and even personally from this experience and wouldnt trade it for the world.

       The real world is sooo different than academia/school. If you have the opportunity to take a job that will allow you to gain analytical skills, learn about office culture/networking, do it!!! Even though its finance, you will be gaining transferable skills, which is really important and can allow you to qualify for the more meaningful jobs in the future. And if you find you dont like it you can always move on to something else. Lastly, as you gain more experience, become more knowledgeable about your field/interests, you may discover that youre interested in something else either similar or completely different than what youre interested in now, which is what happened to me. Good luck =)

       Also, youre only 20?? did you graduate early? Regardless, you have PLENTY of time to figure this stuff out. Focus on gaining skills and work experience, you can put off school for the next few years.

       1. Thank you very much, it’s great to hear what I was suspecting – that I’ll gain more skills by working first. To answer your question I started college at 16 but did a traditional 3-year degree (in my country BA = 3 years) and took a year out in the middle to do a yearlong internship abroad, which I suspect is the reason why I am getting work opportunities in the first place :-)

    5. Agree with everyone else that you should take the job, but also, when you do, don’t go nuts with your money! I made that mistake (getting a high-paying job, then living at the outer edge of, instead of below, my means), and six years on, it has hugely affected my career mobility and standard of living. If I’d kept living like a student for 2-3 years I’d be debt-free with a sweet nest egg right now; instead I dropped serious cash on ephemeral nonsense and, while I’m still what I’d describe as financially comfortable, the fact is that certain choices (such as going to work for a non-profit, taking an extended break from working when I have my first child, retiring at 45) are unavailable to me because of bad choices in my 20s.

       Take the job, upgrade the things you need to for work (i.e., have good business clothes, get good haircuts), but for everything that doesn’t directly impact your career, live like a student! Your 30 year old self will thank you.

       1. Thank you I’ll definitely keep that in mind! I’d like to move out of my crappy basement apartment share but apart from finding a better house share and buying work clothes (I currently only own 1 suit and I can’t close the jacket…oops) I don’t want to spend any more than I currently do :-)

14. I’m working long hours and would really like to have someone come in once or twice a month to clean my condo. However, I feel really uncomfortable with someone doing this when I’m not there. And I think I would feel the urge to “pick up” first. How do others handle this? Have you ever had someone come in and clean on a Saturday when you were home?

    1. You just get over it. You absolutely pick up first. Tidy things away. Hide your adult toys and expensive jewelry. And then let them go to town.

       If you really must insist on seeing them I’d be there when they arrive and then leave to run errands. Just call and book it and deal.

    2. Well, you do pick up before they come in. You make sure your papers are moved away and that there are no dishes in the sink so your cleaning pro can focus on cleaning, rather than tidying. It’s a good motivation for me to pick up and honestly- if I’m totally slammed at work, I just put everything in a laundry basket, put it in my closet and shut the door.

       And some people do stay home when their house is getting cleaned, but I’d encourage you to find somebody you feel comfortable with and trust them to clean when you’re not at home. It was also pointed out to me that you are hiring someone to clean your house- they don’t worry that it’s messy (unless we’re talking like biohazard level) because their job is to make it cleaner. A messy apartment when they get their + Clean when they leave = Job Security.

    3. Saturday cleanings are absolutely available and when we had a cleaning crew we let them in on a Saturday morning and then left to run errands. And by run errands I mean “have brunch.” :) We took our dog with us too, since there are lots of dog-friendly restaurants in our area and that seemed a lot nicer to her than crating her while strangers invaded her house. I trusted them to be alone in my house but I didn’t trust them with a key (my childhood home was burglarized by a cleaning crew who copied our key). I wouldn’t recommend staying there while they clean because the smells can get pretty noxious (I think the stuff they use is stronger than what the average consumer uses). Although, if you have a deck or balcony, sitting out there while they clean could be an option.

    4. I actually find it really awkward being home when my cleaning person is there. She’s perfectly nice, but she’s trying to get her job done quickly and efficiently, and I get in her way. Plus sitting around reading a book or using the computer or whatever while she’s bustling makes me feel lazy.

       Yes, you pick up before they get there. Tidy, put things away or at least stack neatly, otherwise (depending on the cleaner) they will either clean around the clutter and your surfaces won’t be completely cleaned, or they’ll put things away for you in odd places you’ll need to search for later.

       I don’t give our housecleaner a key. I was home to let her in the house and give instructions the first time, but now I leave the back door unlocked the morning she is scheduled to come

       1. (Assuming you’ve adequately vetted and met the person…) The absolutely glory of a clean home will trump whatever reservations you have about the person being there alone.

    5. We pick up before our housecleaner comes so she can actually clean the surfaces. It makes me feel super odd to be in the house while she cleans and I feel like I get in her way.

    6. Our housekeeper comes on Saturdays once a month. Not being from the NoVa area, I didn’t have anyone to get a recommendation from that I would trust. My MIL likes to pay as little as possible, and goes through housekeepers like hotcakes as a result because they are never up to her standards at that price point. We found our housekeeper by picking up a living social coupon for her to try her out. It’s her and two other women and they did a good job, so we started monthly services, going on about 8 months now. We hide away the electronics, jewelry, cash, etc. when they are there and are always home, usually making a pass through the area they are cleaning once or twice to put clothes in the washer, grab a sweater, etc. Otherwise, we hide out in our home office (which they aren’t allowed to clean because we’re still unpacking boxes (11 months later…)). Haven’t noticed anything missing yet, but not even close to the level of trust of my mother’s housekeeper (10+ years) who we don’t even tidy up for, nothing’s ever gone missing, and she lets herself in and out if no one is home. Sometimes I miss my hometown.

    7. Ditto to “tidy before they come,” and also ditto to “I feel awkward being there while they’re there.”

       I solved the key thing by having one door with a different lock on the upper deadbolt, and the cleaning people have the key to that lock only. On cleaning days I leave the bottom lock unlocked on that door and only the upper deadbolt locked, so they can get in. But at all other times the house is locked up with the locks for which they don’t have the key. Does that make sense? Also if I change cleaning services I only have to re-key that one lock, instead of the whole house.

       1. GENIUS.

       2. +1 to different locks!!

          We have a lock with a key pad on the deadbolt of one door. DH, me, dog walker, house cleaner, neighbor taking in mail when we’re on vacation, etc. all get a different codes which we can activate/deactivate at any time! We can also see how long someone has been in the house (time between door locked/unlocked), when the codes were used, etc.

    8. FWIW, I totally don’t pick up first. I’m paying them to get me caught up on dishes, etc that have accumulated, so don’t feel the need to. I would maybe make sure I didn’t have underwear or the like lying in the middle of the floor, or put away any papers specifically didn’t want to get mixed up, but that’s it.

15. How do you utilize a nanny? I don’t need a full-time one (we have a daycare that we love), but DH is out of town a lot for work. On the two or three nights per week that he is gone, I feel really overwhelmed– I know I could use help but can’t pinpoint exactly where. Dropoff and pickup are really convenient since the daycare is right by my office, but what else could I have a nanny do? Do I just need an occasional sitter instead of a nanny?

    1. How about a college or even high school student for late afternoons and/or early evenings?

    2. This used to be called ‘Mothers Help’ and is exactly the kind of thing that college or HS students can do for a lowish wage.

    3. I posted an add on Care.com looking for exactly this sort of thing- two or three days a week to help with childcare and light housework/errands/etc. I got a few dozen responses, mostly from college students who liked that I was flexible in which days I needed because then they could work around their class schedules.

       I haven’t yet started up, but we were talking about non-childcare things like folding all the laundry, swapping out sheets and towels, etc. I liked the idea of having a sitter to run errands as well, because I manage to run them 3X as fast when kiddo isn’t around.

    4. Get thee an assistant, not a nanny. Mine is a miracle worker. She takes my kids to and from daycare, drops off and picks up drycleaning, picks up prescriptions, goes grocery shopping, and will do some light bulk meal prep (making a big thing of stew and freezing batches, for instance)

       1. Can you tell us more about your assistant? How did you find this person? How many hours are required to make a different for you? Do you delegate specific tasks on a daily/weekly basis?

       2. I found her on Care.com. She’s a graduate student and was looking for a flexible side job.

          My needs vary week to week, as does her availability, and we work together to make it work by week.

          For instance, when she has a dozen papers due or has finals, I cut my asks way down and all she may do that week is go to and from daycare.

          Last week, I had major projects going on at work and wasn’t getting home until 10pm every night, so I leaned on her more to run errands, prepare meals for the kids, etc. That was probably 20-25 hours.

          The tasks really vary. Sometimes it’s dropping packages off at the post office, waiting for a maintenance guy, picking up the birthday cake from the bakery…whatever.

    5. My husband has been out of town the past two weeks, and luckily, I had my mom to help me once or twice a week at night. If I needed to, I’d hire a mother’s helper after I got home from work. I’d have her feed my kids dinner, bathe them, and put them to bed, and I’d concentrate on doing all the other household chores that I have to do regardless – taking out the trash, dishes, laundry, etc.

    6. As a former nanny – you need a babysitter or mother’s helper. Phrase it that way if you post an online advertisement. Nannies (in my area at least) are typically full-time professionals.

16. Does anyone here own the Lo and Sons Catalina bag? I’m thinking about getting it for weekend trips, but I also think it might be impractical to carry. I haven’t been able to find many reviews that aren’t by bloggers that received the bag in return for a review.

    1. I bought the Catalina, but haven’t used it for a trip yet. It’s quite big, but it seems okay to carry – the straps are nice and thick and a good length. I love that it’s washable and folds up to be very small. But, when filled it is bulky enough to look a little silly on my 5’1” frame, and I imagine it could get pretty heavy depending on what you put in there.

       1. I’m 5’10, so it shouldn’t overwhelm me. Thanks for the comments about the straps!

17. So, I am not sure where/how to look this up. I’d like to go on a road trip with my dog, and we might go to Canada. Do I need papers to take my own dog across the border? Has anyone had experience with this to point me in the right direction? TIA!

    1. I’d start here:
       http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals/terrestrial-animals/imports/policies/live-animals/pets/dogs/eng/1331876172009/1331876307796

    2. I’ve done it. You need proof that the dog has had rabies shots and that’s it. Canada is super dog friendly. You can take him/her on the trails in almost all national and provincial parks.

    3. Depending on where you are going and the breed, you may want to check for any additional requirements (e.g. – in Ontario pit bulls must be muzzled in public).

18. Kat, it seems like every time you link to Eloquii, it doesn’t show the actual dress/outfit, but just redirects to the home page.

19. Any Canadians living in the US on this site? We’ve just received a letter from Scottrade that because we are citizens of Canada they can no longer conduct business with us. We have been fine for the past three years with them and we are permanent residents. I am sure we aren’t the only ones, but if all Canadians cannot hold accounts then with which brokerages can I conduct my trades?

    1. Apart from our RRSP, all of our Canadian holdings had to be moved into an Investment Advisory account, with a broker who was separate from our regular broker. We can give the advisor our investment preferences and specify any corporations in which we did not want holdings. Other than that, we can’t direct investments.

       It isn’t ideal, but until we make a decision about staying in the US or going back to Canada, it is the best we could do.

20. Has anyone been to Cuba and have recommendations? Especially for getting around, non-touristy delicious food and things to do, and places to see live music. But any recommendations are welcome! Going in early June.

    1. Never been but I am SO SO SO JEALOUS. I have wanted to go there for so long and fear that by the time I can get there (likely 3-5 years from now at a minimum) it will be so different than it used to be.

21. How long can you keep yogurt in the fridge once opened? We don’t eat it and use it only for giving our dog pills, so we go through it super slowly. Plus we can only buy a HUGE tub so if we threw it out and bought a new one every 7 days we would waste a huge amount of yogurt. But I feel like that’s probably what we should be doing.

    1. Freeze it in small portions so you can thaw a few days’ worth at a time?

       1. +1. Freeze it in an ice cube tray and thaw one cube at a time.

          That’s what I do when I’ve had to buy canned pumpkin for my dog when he’s having stomach issues–he only needs one or two tablespoons to firm things up, and I hate to throw the rest of the enormous can away and then go buy a new one the next time (I hate all things pumpkin so I won’t eat it, and the kind that’s safe for him to eat only comes in large cans).

          1. I would like to put a plug in for “Firm it Up” pumpkin which you can get on Amazon. It’s a freeze-dried powder and so much more economical than canned pumpkin when you consider you only need it occassionally. My friend turned me on to it and I love it!

             1. I live in a country where canned pumpkin is just not a thing, and I miss it, so I got really excited when I read your comment about a freeze-dried version (and started picturing all the pies and smoothies and breads I could make), even though I thought the name was a bit odd. So yeah, I was super disappointed to find out it’s a dietary/p00p aid for pets :-(

    2. Officially, like 3-4 days maximum. I tend to think it’s fine as long as there’s no mould. Can you not buy single serving tubs?

       1. Unfortunately none of the grocery stores in our area have smaller sizes of the kind of yogurt she needs (non-fat, no flavoring, live active cultures). I’ve searched high and low.

          1. Doesn’t Greek yogurt have active cultures? I know there are some plain single serve options in that/

          2. You’re likely fine for about a month or so past the best before date. It’s the sugars etc that make most yoghurts go off more quickly.

          3. Really? Chobani plain fits the bill. It’s non-fat, no flavoring, live active cultures.

          4. I was under the impression that dogs shouldn’t have Greek yogurt but maybe I’m totally wrong about that. I’ll look into it further. I can definitely get non-fat, plain Greek yogurt with active cultures in small sizes.

             1. Greek yogurt is simply regular yogurt that’s been strained, so it doesn’t contain anything they shouldn’t have. My dog LOVES yogurt and we mostly give him Greek yogurt.

             2. Greek yogurt is just regular yogurt with extra whey strained out to make it thicker. There shouldn’t be anything added that is bad for your dog.

             3. To Aunt Jamesina – just as an FYI – not all ‘greek’ yoghurts are strained. Many companies increase the protein factor by adding ‘milk protein concentrate’ and calling it greek. Straining is absolutely the traditional way to make it. I avoid ones with the milk protein concentrate added but not sure if it matters for dogs or not.

             4. Milk protein is already in yogurt in its natural form, so it’s simply increasing an ingredient that is already in it (even if in a concentrated, more processed form), not adding anything new.

       2. 3-4 days maximum? I keep mine for way longer.

          1. It keeps for ages unopened but I’ve had opened tubs go mouldy after 5-6 days and as I have a poor sense of smell I edge on the side of caution.

    3. You can freeze it in ice cube trays or muffin tins (dump into a ziploc bag once frozen solid so it takes up less room) and only defrost as you need it. But some varieties will get thinner and watery-er when you defrost them.

       Why can you only buy a huge tub? I’m assuming you are buying plain unsweetened, but you can find that in smaller sizes too at many grocery stores.

    4. Particularly for dog use, I’d say you can definitely go over a week – probably at least 2, maybe 3. We regularly do that for human consumption, just pouring off the water that accumulates on top. The cultures in yogurt help it “keep” longer. I know for a fact that it is good longer than the sell-by date by at least a 10 days-2 weeks.

    5. I do that when I make smoothies/overnight oats. I’m certain I’ve used it at least 2-3 weeks after opening. You will have to stir it up, but I’ve never noticed a taste issue and I’m very paranoid about spoiled food. I figure it’s already sour milk.

    6. Not sure, but you may be able to buy a big tub of it, and freeze individual serving sizes in ice cube trays. Once frozen, empty into ziplock bags and then defrost cubes in the fridge as needed. Kind of like homemade baby food. Not sure if it affects the texture, constitution, etc., but I’m sure you could google it.

    7. Keep using it until it smells funny or grows mold. Yogurt was invented as a way to preserve milk.

22. Tips for getting more productive hours out of the day? I’m in a huge time crunch for the next several months, and I need more hours in a day. I feel tired a lot, which is the main limitation. I get as much sleep as I’ve ever needed a night, so I don’t think that’s the issue. How do you feel energized?

    1. Have you gotten your blood levels checked?

       I used to sleep (a lot) every night but still felt so darn TIRED all the time. It turned out I had some serious deficiencies (and Celiac, which caused the deficiencies) which was causing my fatigue.

       Once I was diagnosed, I took vitamins (and had to change my diet), then i was astonished how much energy and focus I had. I wake up before my alarm clock, I go for a long walk/run with my dog (I am SOOOOOO not an exercise person, so this is a big deal), I get to work early and pound out more by lunch than most accomplish all day), I get home and while before I would crash in bed or on the couch and feel like crap, I now make a healthful dinner, read, play with the dog, and actually have energy before bed.

       I just need less sleep than I did before too.

    2. Try getting fewer, better hours of sleep. I’m not sure on the science, but I’ve certainly heard it enough, that sleeping earlier in the night is more productive for restfulness, ie, going to bed at 10 and getting up at 5 instead of going to bed at midnight and getting up at 7.

       Also, not sure you geographic area, but I’m super tired in spring because my body is fighting all the pollen. When I change the filter on our HVAC (reminder: do this this weekend, self) and take allergy meds every day on a clock, that helps. Could this be impacting you?

       Also, seconding exercise by KT. You’d think exercise would make you more tired, but even a quick, brisk walk wakes me up and gets my blood moving.

23. Looks like I’m late to this thread, but I ran across this interesting (and, in my view, spot-on) critique of the Atlantic essay about finances we were talking about the other day: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_bills/2016/04/neal_gabler_s_atlantic_essay_is_part_of_an_old_aggravating_genre_the_sad.html

    TL;DR: Neil Gabler is super privileged and “broke” isn’t the same thing as “poor.”

    1. +1 Having means (income/assets) and then living beyond them, is different than not having any/enough means (income, assets) to just live.

    2. The only thing I thought about that Atlantic article was that I’ve never seen someone less self-reflective than the author.

       1. “I’m not saying this is an excuse but [insert excuse.]” Drove me nuts.

    3. Right??? I was so annoyed by that article.

    4. This is exactly what I thought but couldn’t put into words while I was reading the article! I mean, he drained his retirement savings to pay for his daughter’s wedding…??? That’s not being poor, that’s being irresponsible.

24. Old Navy has $25 pixie pants today! Trying to curb my urge to buy just because – so cheap!
    Do these pants work with pear figures i.e. accommodate a large hip but not gape in the waist? Any feedback on these? Feel free to dissuade me.

    1. I am a pear/hourglass and most pants gape at the waist. My one pair of Pixies don’t gape much at all and they are comfy.

       I can’t dissuade you on fit. Sorry!

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