Thursday’s Workwear Report: Cashmere Crewneck Sweater

494 Comments

1. Hello Thursday! How’s everybody feeling?

   I don’t have many links because I deleted my newsreader app because ignorance is better for me right now.

   But here’s one that was recommended the other day, “Getting Dressed”– short episodes showing what went into a woman’s outfit at various points in history. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibj7GsfsCpI&list=PLx0IRLJNwjho-6Pkv8hR0yiFIEe_HmG_j

   1. Honestly, feeling outraged at the commenters yesterday who accused me of “not caring about the less fortunate” because I am concerned that easing lockdown restrictions before July or August will cause a new spike of cases, thereby causing even more suffering.

      1. Same.

   2. I’m honestly wishing my (blue) state and (blue) local government would show some signs that they are giving any thought to how to reopen and when to reopen and how that thinking is going. The silence is not good. Every day they seem to move the goalposts, but without explanation (e.g., our peak death week was supposed to be this week; they cancelled our overflow field hospital as unneeded; and then announced that our peak death week will be in June, but then dropped the mic (is that because we’ve had such declining daily new cases that there will be really slow growth until this peters out? do we have another month and change of distancing and closures? what does any of this mean?).

      I don’t think that these people are idiots or bad. But I also think that they are politicians who are so afraid of headlines and spikes that they are letting the unattainable goal of perfect safety be what drives any decision. I don’t think they have a concept of managing risks and classifying things by riskiness. I also don’t think they are good at thinking though HOW can things reopen and are going to an all-or-nothing approach (= nothing).

      [E.g., our city is very poor. We were to have a diaper drive (I think you can’t use SNAP benefits for diapers or can’t get enough diapers if you are very needy). The drive was cancelled because of safety concerns. Initially, that was fine. But it can’t be delayed for months. No one is thinking about how to get this done; it is just undone. Ditto many medical procedures that weren’t critical in March; now they have gone undone in April and may stay undone in May; at some point, those people will be suffering and need a plan other than DEFER. Haircutters could probably figure out how to operate safely, but they aren’t allowed to. Businesses and things that aren’t critical become critical if deferred too long.]

      1. That’s because until we get the virus under control, no one can really know. It would be irresponsible for people to set policy out a month from now without knowing what the virus cases will be like a month from now. We all have a need for certainty, but that’s just the thing — we can’t have it now.

         1. There needs to be some open discussion of the requirements for reopening and the plan to prepare, though. It appears that no one in authority is doing anything to make it safe to reopen, and that the timeline is going to be an entirely political decision. This means that as soon as people go back to work and school infections will spike again, and we’ll be right back where we started.

         2. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

            1. Yeah, I say this all the time and people in my very very progressive town look at me like I have three heads.

               Did my husband “need” to go to the fancy bakery to get our 12yo a birthday cake? Not strictly, but she loved it and we’d had to cancel her party. Did I tear up when my husband came back with pastries and coffee in paper cups along with the birthday cake? Yes.

      2. I agree with this so much.

      3. I also completely agree. We were sold this as a temporary measure so as not to overrun the hospitals and run out of ventilators and PPE (flatten the curve). As far as I can tell, that goal has been more then met in most of the country. Obviously, we should be careful not to undo that, but there’s a lot of room between what our capabilities are now and what’s being used (in most places). Life still goes on, and people still have needs.

      4. Agree with all of this. I am really, really disappointed in our governor, whom I previously liked very much and voted for. Everything seems to be a kneejerk reaction without any forethought. A lot of her decisions seem politically motivated and not really based on science, but more “I need to do what other Dem governors are doing and up the ante.” We are thankfully not experiencing overwhelmed hospitals which was the goal of social distancing, and from what I understand we are rolling out expanded testing capacity and contact tracing next week. So, it’s time to start talking about a reopening plan, at least a plan, even if the plan has to change. But nope, radio silence. In the absence of information people assume the worst and act accordingly, but that doesn’t seem to be motivating our state government to take any kind of action. It’s disappointing and making me reconsider some of my long-held political allegiances.

         1. I am frustrated with the tone of some messages. Regarding masks, yesterday our governor said “I am strongly saying this is what you’ve got to do,” making it sound like we were all just frolicking around sans masks for fun. Dude, it was only days ago you were telling us not to wear masks, and to wear one was actually selfish. I get it, things change, we need to find masks but stop lecturing at me.

            My state has stay safe at home until mid-May. I’m considering mine lasts until April 30.

            1. “My state has stay safe at home until mid-May. I’m considering mine lasts until April 30.”

               So you’re really just going to go about and about? Throw a party and invite the neighbors? What specifically are you going to do that is prohibited in the moment?

            2. Not the person you’re responding to but I have multiple friends who have been following SIP orders very strictly that are deciding to go visit friends or relatives next week. They’ve had enough of this and figure that if they and the people they are visiting have both been good with SIP orders/social distancing for 4-5 weeks, it’s low risk and they dont’ care if it’s not technically allowed. I expect to see a lot more of that. I also expect to see underground businesses start to pop up like hairdressers

            3. Well, lil miss perfect Lauren, I am going to go visit my father who also lives alone, and spend time with him outside, but go inside to pee so I can see him for more than 10 minutes. I’m going to eat dinner with friends on their deck. And from time to time I’m going to work in my private office.

            4. don’t tell lauren what you’re going to do, she’s going to report your license plate.

         2. This sounds exactly like what is happening in my (blue) state. I wonder if we are in the same place? NM?

            1. Yep.

      5. Ugh. That is all terrifying.
         At first I was going to say – I feel like my area we have been good about SIP and from what I can tell the numbers are pretty good, but it’s honestly hard to get a good take on that, and I suspect it’s b/c they purposefully don’t advertise too loudly that the numbers are good to keep a bunch of people from becoming careless before it’s safe to do so. I think it is generally agreed that regardless we all are likely on lockdown until May, so why not wait until closer to then to get really loud about the good numbers and reopen?
         But then I read further down your post and that does sound like a lot of incompetence going on and I’m sorry.

         1. Cosign. I was supposed to get a biopsy last month. In an OB’s office, so in no way taking space from ICU beds or even hospital capacity. It is deferred indefinitely. OB’s office is laying off staff b/c they are just seeing pregnant patients now. Anesthesia staff is being laid off. LPNs and nurses’ aides are having hours cut (your bills, however, aren’t being covered; the power bill is the power bill; your car note is your car note). If I have cancer (it’s like >80% that I do), it will probably not kill me outright right now, but I’d rather get it at Stage 1 than Stage 2b or worse.

            But I’m working now and have health insurance now and it would be less disruptive now. But it will not be now. Now I hope it doesn’t make me sicker for when (not if) I eventually get coronavirus.

            1. This sucks so much and I am sorry you are going through this.

         2. “they purposely don’t advertise that the numbers are good”

            No, it’s the opposite. Infections and deaths are being massively undercounted, at least in part because testing is limited. One might reasonably suspect that one reason testing is limited is that those in power don’t want the people to know how widespread the virus still is, and how dangerous it would be to lift social distancing measures without a robust system of testing and contact tracing in place.

      6. Politicians have backed themselves into a corner and I honestly think they are just hoping that something will get them out of their own mess.

         1. this is exactly why (some) people don’t want the government handling more than is absolutely necessary. Bureaucrats who keep their paychecks have no incentive to think of smart, rational and least-damaging policies.

            1. I’m one of those.

               The politicians’ incentive is to not be left holding the bag if things go wrong, and they fear “you killed grandma” more than “you killed the economy [which killed grandma].” When our interests are (roughly) aligned, it’s not a big deal, but the politicians’ interests at this point are diverging from those of a lot of their constituents.

            2. Conservatives are so cynical, it’s really awful to listen to. You all expect the worst out of people at every opportunity. “Bureaucrats” are people. Did it ever occur to you that some people consider themselves public servants and work for the government because they want to implement smart, rational, and effective policies? Because they care?

            3. You say ‘a lot of their constituents’, anon@11:28. A lot is relative. A lot of constituents still prioritize not killing grandma, I’m sure.

            4. If they are public servants, they should take a pay cut with the rest of us. Also, where are the smart rational and effective government policies? This isn’t a red/blue attack.

            5. Anon at 11:28, I never mentioned bureaucrats. And I have no desire to listen to a bunch of Democrats talk about how “cynical” we are when they referred to W Bush as a mass murderer, said Romney gave people cancer, and think Trump is a tyrant.

            6. Anon at 12:46 does that mean you support quarantine until vaccine? Because without a vaccine, I think prevailing wisdom is that most/nearly everyone will get this at some point. So grandma may die anyways unless we all lockdown for over a year. Speaking solely for my grandmother, but she’s expressed a preference to see her great grandchildren soon and is willing to accept the risk that comes with that. It’s not unreasonable given that she’s likely to die in the next 5-10 years anyways, she’s unwilling to spend 10-20% (or possibly more) of her remaining time isolated from family.

            7. local government employee here. I, and everyone I know, have worked 70-80+ hours a week for 7 weeks. We each work 6 days a week, our office is going 24/7, literally putting blood, sweat, and tears into this operation. There is SO MUCH going on behind the scenes, trust me. We have teams working on every imaginable aspect of this.

               We all chose this career path because we believe in what we do and we want to help. We could all make 2x as much money, with better benefits and better work life balance elsewhere. But we stay because we want to help.

               I welcome anyone disparaging bureaucrats and public servants to come spend a few days in my office, it’ll change your mind.

            8. anon@1:07 I believe we are going to lift restrictions stepwise, as we get more testing, supplies and contact tracing in place, and as we learn more about which activities are more/less dangerous. Right now, we’ve had three months to learn about this new disease, how it spreads, who is susceptible, and how to treat. That is not a lot of time, and we already have sequenced the little mf, had preliminary studies come up with six feet guidance, and 14 day range for quarantine, and learn that a paper piece of mail is likely safer than a shared steel door knob. This is all based on scientific evidence. There is active research going on to get more detailed understanding on virtually every aspect of this situation. Is six feet enough? Is outside vs. inside different? Do we really need to wipe down groceries? What effect do homemade masks have on a large scale? We have learned so much in the last few weeks, and that is not going to stop. I am sure that with every week we will understand better what activities are more dangerous, and which ones we don’t need to restrict. I think all elected officials are hounding their researchers to give them the evidence to reopen parts of the economy.

               When it comes to grandma, if we can keep the curve flat, everybody still gets it at some point and yes, some people will die. But the whole point of this effort is that if we let the cases spike, not only will some people die from coronavirus, but a lot more (grandmas and otherwise) won’t be able to get treatment for their appendicitis, or accidents, or heart attacks, because hospitals can’t cope and doctors are ill. Flattening the curve saves more people overall, even if everyone gets the virus in the end.

      7. I think there is also a knee jerk reaction in blue states to Trump – if he wants = bad, even if it’s the least bad option I’m not saying Trump is good – he’s a giant orange cheeto – but just that like a broken clock, he’ll be right twice a day. So when he says “re-open” the politically astute thing for Dem governors to do who want to be VP right now is to do the opposite, even if it’s not good governance.

         1. I think this is what is motivating 90% of our state government’s decisions and I am disgusted by it. I am a Democrat, I am Ridin’ With Biden this November, I voted in all these Democrat politicians in my state government in previous elections. What I did not want to do was vote in people who are going to make decisions that impact millions of people based on their desire to stick it to Trump. I think Trump is a disease but I don’t think his push to reopen the economy is 100% based on his own self-interest. I hate to admit it, but some of what he is saying makes sense. If Democratic politicians can’t apply some common sense and rationality to this, then they deserve to lose in November. And they will, if they don’t do something soon.

            1. +1

            2. Oh, I think Trump’s push to open the economy is totally in his self-interest. He doesn’t know any other way!

               That said, I do agree that it would be nice to have some sort of plan to start cautiously opening things up. I wish we had national leadership who would really push for and effectively implement wide-spread testing, so we’d know more about just how deadly this thing is in America and we could quickly stomp out outbreaks and have more information for high risk people. If we could do that, I think we could get back to some semblance of normal sooner.

               I also worry that without some sort of release valve, people are going to start pushing against the restrictions and do stupid things. I feel like that if you allow small risks, maybe people will still follow the rules to avoid large risks.

            3. Here’s the thing: I’m all for thinking through how to *cautiously* re-open the economy, with a thoughtful, spaced-out-over-time plan. We can’t go from the current situation to packing sports arenas, obviously … so can we open hairdressers? Do we have to regulate only X in the store at a time? Can we open clothing shops? Same thing. And of course the big thing is re-opening schools and how does that occur. My problem is that Trump shoots his mouth off in the other direction, as if there were a giant light switch that got flipped off and now should be flipped back on (remember the “packed churches on Easter morning”)? I want thoughtful people considering *all sides* of something. And right now, it’s the Dem governors who are at least listening to the science for the most part.

         2. This is why regardless of ideological differences, it is important to have a well-spoken, thoughtful, and intelligent POTUS. If Trump were more capable of articulating his position, and providing a basis for it, the response would be completely different. But his position is not grounded in fact, science, or even political ideology, but rather, ironically, in a desire to present an image of competence. I cannot stand that people were so willing to vote for a clown.

            1. You sound like someone who was wailing and gnashing her teeth about the xenophobic bans on travel from china.

            2. I agree with this.

            3. Anonymous @ 10:38 – huh? what? You sound like the type to make extrapolations from one situation to a very much unrelated one based on your own conservative bias. Chill TF out. Also if you read something other than Fox news you’d know that there was no liberal or democratic push back on closing the borders to China travel and actually lots of calls for it to happen sooner because many people – in particular progressives who lbh aren’t all but tend to be less racist – understand the difference between “virus travels from X area” and “Chinese people are bad”.

      8. agree x1000. I think the people are starting to revolt, so to speak. I posted below about people using masks as a substitute for social distancing, but when i think about it, I think everyone is just so desperate to be back to something that looks like normal.

         I’m in MA and we are 3 weeks out from the end of our stay-at-home order. I keep looking at the calendar hoping our governor is doing the same thing– holding his breath and hoping that we can do something other than shut the entire state down until August. He hasn’t extended the order yet (KNOCK ON WOOD). I really, truly thought the point of shelter at home/ stay at home/ extreme social distancing was to give “the system” time to get ready and to flatten the curve to the extent possible. Well…that was more than 4 weeks ago. Saying we need to keep going beyond week 7 at the same isolated rate is insanity.

         On the other hand, how much of the economy can really get back to up and running if school/camp/daycares are not allowed to open? I think it would look about how it does now: those that can WFH and scrape by with the kids at home can make it work, but anyone who has a butt-in-seat/factory/other place type job can’t do it without childcare. Are all these college kids home for the year going to take on nanny jobs (and at what rate)?

      9. I am 100% in support of keeping things closed through at least June, and I still agree that there needs to be some communication regarding the plan for reopening. There is zero evidence that anyone is working on the things we need in order to be able to reopen safely, such as expanded testing or understanding what level of antibodies confers immunity.

      10. I’ve noticed more and more of these comments popping up here. As someone with a Masters in Public Health who is not an infectious disease expert but more informed than the average, I feel like a huge piece is missing from these discussions. We can have conversations about safe ways to open but until we have massive continuous access to testing and the ability to trace contacts, reopening will just mean another blind period of increasing transmission leading to another spike and another lockdown. Despite the months since the initial testing debacles in February we have not resolved the issue in any states fully and certainly not nationally. If we reopen and can’t quickly identify and isolate new cases and transmission chains we will just have to do this all again. And while case growth is slowing, we are still talking about much larger numbers doubling than we were talking about in early March when it shut down. I’d also remind you that the models that show “only” 60,000 people dying by August require us to continue strict social distancing through May 30. So let’s not let “better” data on deaths seem like things are fine. The goalposts haven’t changed. We just still aren’t meeting them. The dates on the stay at home orders were just darts thrown at a dartboard in the dark at the time. Without testing data we can’t move forward.

          1. This X1000000. If we want to reopen the country, we need testing, tracing, and antibody testing. This is the first step and if we can’t do this, the rest of the steps don’t matter. We should be calling our governors every day demanding testing. Premature opening will set us back months. Waiting too long will destroy our economy. But we, for a reason i really can’t fathom, simply don’t have the data points.

          2. Amen.

          3. +1

             This is the correct response.

             We have not had a federally guided, unified effort to optimize, maximize and improve access to testing. Our president speaks as though we already have everything we need, everyone is getting tested who wants a test, we have drive thru testing at every Walgreens etc…, that we have plenty of tests etc. But this is a lie. This is wrong. Trump dropped the ball, doesn’t understand the significance and doesn’t understand the risks by re-opening things before we have the foundation to keep things stable. And stable is still terrible, you know?

             The real peak in deaths after the Spanish flu was not the initial spike, but the spike after people returned to “normal” daily activities.

             In our HUGE city no one can get tested unless they are hospitalized with respiratory failure, health care workers, or elderly with risk factors and symptoms. That is likely less than 50% of the people who are infected right now…. much less, probably.

             Of course this situation is awful. People are dying who wouldn’t be dying because of lack of access to care because of the priorities of the coronavirus patients. Many lives will be devastated because of the economic sequelae.

             Things will continue to change day to day.

          4. 100x this!

      11. My guess is that some of this is not new info or politics, but that they are afraid they will lose all of us entirely if they tell us the truth about how long this Covid-lifestyle will last. If they keep the timelines tight, it feels more manageable and we’ll comply. If this is going to go on indefinitely, people will start giving up .

      12. I see a lot of things happening to move us towards restarting normal life. Test capacity is increasing every week. It’s not yet enough, but it’s ten times more tests per day than a month ago. Governors are working together to get PPE instead of outbidding each other. The federal stockpile has been deployed, and through social distancing the surge of cases was prevented in some areas, so that extra ventilators and personnel that was not needed in one state, can now be deployed to the hot spots. That means the social distancing is working. The shifting of the peak day is also a mathematical consequence of successfully flattening the curve.
          Companies are changing from their normal product to making hand sanitizer, masks and gowns. Google and Apple are collaborating on a contact tracing app, and open-source volunteers are X-raying the app for privacy concerns. The NIH is doing a study to quantify undetected infections. My government research lab was shut down with shelter-in-place, now supporting a bunch of different covid-projects with out instrument and computing resources. Researchers are working around the clock on a variety of potential drugs to treat and at least ten potential vaccines. Because the runway for a vaccine is so long, the Bill Gates foundation is investing billions to build up production capabilities for 8 of the most promising vaccine candidates, not yet knowing which one will eventually be safe, successful, approved and deployed. They will end up wasting a few billion $ but they will be prepared to produce large scale quantities of whichever vaccine we need in the end.
          All these efforts are happening in the US, and more around the world. They are going to increase testing, essential supplies and contact tracing, which is what we need to reopen. I’m not saying that I’m not sick and tired of staying at home, fwiw, but there is all this stuff happening around us working on reopening.

   3. Paging Veronica Mars and pugsnbourbon: There was mention of a “no cry challenge” and a “wholesome meme” by each of you respectively yesterday–these each seem like things I might need (or needed at various points over the last week). Please share if you’re able! Or anyone else, ways to get out a good cathartic cry. I feel like I’ve been keeping it together for my kids that when I’m finally alone and am able to let it out… there’s nothing there.

      1. For me, music generally does it. The San Francisco Gay Mens Choir video last week (a Brave mashup), the Hamilton performance on John Krasinski’s show, or this, a video performance of Ben Platt and co.
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_10msPMEick

         1. Another Hamilton re-work (They’re Right in Your Town) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYlxVJubdww&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3CRaNZyZ7n7vL_x2mD_DPBxuylLxiAVP5fH6IKdI9V7RI6v7yB_pq1QIg&app=desktop

            1. Well now I’m crying. So beautifully done

            2. That will do it for sure.

      2. Personal preference for movies to watch for a good cry: The Notebook, My Girl, Armageddon, Me Before You, The Art of Racing in the Rain (recent watch, had NO IDEA how sad a movie this would be. My husband asked why I would do this to us), Marley and Me.

         1. I always cry at the end of Rudy.

            1. Also Remember the Titans

         2. Bridges of Madison County twice made me bawl.

            1. I watched it on a plane in the middle seat – so many embarrassing tears!

            2. I love, love, love this movie!

         3. I watched Inside Out with my toddler and bawled at the part with Bing Bong.

         4. My go to cry movie is Hatchi…

            1. OP recommending crying movies: I watched Hatchi once with my entire family and everyone was bawling. Just thinking about it makes me sad, and I have never watched it again.

            2. Oh my God, I watched Hatchi one Thanksgiving with my aunt – bawling!

         5. PS I love you is another good one for crying!

         6. About Time is my kryptonite.

            1. Oh my gosh! Yes! I watched this with my parents in the autumn (they hadn’t seen it before and I love it) and spent most of the second half in tears. My parents were kind of shocked so I just misquoted Love Actually at them – “Richard Curtis taught your cold English daughter how to feel!”

         7. Up. I haven’t even watched the whole movie because the first montage made me so horribly sad.
            Also, cried watching Lion King the other night (the new one) when Mufasa does.

      3. Listening to Landslide by Fleetwood Mac or The House that Built Me by Miranda Lambert will get the tears flowing for me. I completely get what you’re saying. I feel like I’m repressing my feelings for my kids’ sake but those emotions are coming out sideways at times (impatience, anger).

      4. Oh hell yeah, I’ll hook you up:
         – The Alfonso Cuaron version of A Little Princess reduces me to a heaving, sobbing mess
         – 41 wholesome memes: https://www.ranker.com/list/wholesome-memes-reddit/joshualee
         – 31 good wholesome stories: https://www.ranker.com/list/made-me-smile-reddit-pics/joshualee?ref=collections_btm&l=2843059&collectionId=2367&li_source=LI&li_medium=desktop-bottom-collection
         – 24 good current news stories: https://www.ranker.com/list/wholesome-good-news/mrennie?ref=collections_btm&l=2837066&collectionId=2367&li_source=LI&li_medium=desktop-bottom-collection

         This post is gonna be in mod for 1000 years, but I’ll end with a photo I love – it’s the pic of the Wright brothers at Kitty Hawk, taken at the moment of their first flight. I LOVE this picture. You can hear the waves and the wind, you can see the footprints where Wilbur is running to keep up and then he stops and he knows that they’ve done it. It’s exhilarating: https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/wright-brothers-first-flight-photo-annotated-180949489/

      5. I wrote a longer post with a bunch of links that will be in mod for a while, check back later!

      6. Dead Poet’s Society
         Field of Dreams
         Up

         1. If you don’t sob uncontrollably at the opening sequence of Up, I’m not even sure you’re human.

            1. Every time, man. Every time.

            2. I couldn’t even watch the rest of that movie after that. The opening absolutely destroyed me.

   4. Hi, Good Morning! Are you doing okay? I’ve noticed your recent posts are not as enthusiastic as they once were (not a complaint, not a judgment, just an observation). We all appreciate your daily posts, but if this is no longer good for your mental health please feel free to go on a sabbatical (at least). Take care of yourself!

      1. I am all for feeling and acting positive on this website, even if we have inner feelings that are not as cheery. We must all remember that we are a HIVE, and like bees, we all must work together to achieve a result — in our case here, to share our thougths, visions and hopes for the future, be it at home, at work or with our significant other’s, be they male, female, bi, etc. I kind of learned to appreciate Gov. Coumo — he acts and speaks with alot of reason, and that sense gives me more Serenity. In some way’s he is like my Dad, tho not exactly. As New Yorkers, we of all people have to lead by example, b/c NYC is really full of the virus, so now more then ever, we must follow the rules. So let’s stay positive and we will all be fine after this virus is OVER! YAY!!!!!

      2. I second this. We appreciate you Good Morning but also care about your mental health!

         1. Thanks both! I had to take a minute and like, interrogate myself, am I okay? I am not sure! I am, in a lot of ways, sure yeah fine. And very lucky in lots of ways. But, I’m tired and like, not hitting my productivity goals for my hobby and I miss the gym so goddam much (it was like a social outlet for me)… you know the same old same old.

            I had to delete the news because I’m so FREAKING TIRED of all this mess in the US since 2016, I’m just frustrated by these constant think pieces of how terrible everything is. I just need a break. I’ve been doing activism on and off for a long time and sometimes I have to step back.

            I’m actually LESS scared now than I was at the beginning when I was writing the RAH-RAH posts. Back then I was constantly constantly on edge, since basically January for whatever reason. Right now I just feel sort of folded into myself. I need a warm sunny day and several naps and then I can start feeling like I’m moving forward again. I also wish this sort of constant nagging chest or lung ache would go away or develop into actual testable symptoms, I’m always hovering on the edge of being fine or MUERTO.

            BUT here’s some good news: my coworker in Scotland says they’re allowed to go out again, her daughter had COVID and now she’s fine, the news from South Korea yesterday was good (thank you South Korea poster!), and my favorite story of the day is that the second Gilead trial in China has been halted for … LACK OF PATIENTS ! :)

            https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/gilead-shares-slip-as-a-second-remdesivir-covid-19-trial-halted-china

            So, I’m basically all over the place! I will take a break from posting as a THING though. :) I just don’t have the same kind of urgency to KNOW EVERYTHING and TELL EVERYONE about it.

            I really appreciate you all though, this is a board I turn to when I need GROWNUPS around me. So thanks to all of you :)

            1. <3<3<3

            2. Please enjoy all the naps and sunshine! Lots of (virtual) high fives and hugs to you!

            3. You were / are a ray of sunshine! Grateful for your thoughtfulness.

            4. Hugs to you, Good Morning! Thanks for helping us get through this!!

            5. y’all are way too kind! Thank you though, I really appreciate it!

            6. <3 Big hugs!

   5. I need some evidence that real thought has been going into plans for re-opening. I feel like people have lost sight of the reason for stay-at-home, which is to manage the spread of the disease such that healthcare is not overwhelmed, not to ensure that no one ever contracts Covid again (such that this needs to stick until there is a vaccine).

      If the goal has changed to the latter, I’d honestly prefer a month of much harsher restrictions than another 3? 6? of the status quo.

      1. I agree with this. I have been following orders to the letter and I am weary and tired. I am all for flattening the curve but it seems this is no longer the goal? What we are doing now does not feel sustainable. I am OK with continuing to eliminate large crowds and events for some time. But basically never leaving the house, except to get groceries and go on a walk? Yeah, less OK with that. And I’m in a very privileged position — I just think the status quo is even less sustainable for people with fewer resources.

         1. My husband and are are considering expanding our quarantine to include my parents. My husband was at a sold out basketball game in Madison square garden in March and that was an acceptable risk at the time, but if I’m doing math right, people there definitely had the bug. But now we can’t see my parents even though none of us have been outside the house for more than a month? I guess we might have somehow gotten the virus from a package or something but it seems like a very small risk comparatively.

            1. My mom refused to stop her visits. I tried doing the driveway thing but she insisted the loneliness was worse than the prospect of catching anything. We’ve been quarantining and only see her and the grocery store so… I give her what she wants.

         2. Right?

            Like the people above with no diapers. That’s a non-deferrable public health problem and I think that the misery compounds. At what point, do you force people to steal what they need because you can’t figure out how to give people what you actually have to give them to reduce their suffering and that of their family?

         3. Yes, this. I’m totally fine with no concerts/sporting events/other large gatherings for a while but yikes to this continuing for much longer.

      2. It’s so interesting you say that because I’ve been noticing a major shift in attitude in these comments over the past couple weeks. It went from “sttay at home all the time no exceptions, you’re going to get everyone killed!” to a quick realization that is not sustainable but there’s no exit strategy in place. Some of the debates in the comments about what that exit strategy could look like have been very interesting to follow. Many of us are privileged enough to not feel the brunt of this economically, but the mental toll is starting to become heavy.
         I’m not sure what the answer is, but I sure the heck hope our leaders (at any level of government) are considering this in earnest. Otherwise, people are just going to start breaking the rules willy nilly because they’re tired of it and going broke.

         1. They aren’t! Did you see the interview with the Gov of NJ who straight up admitted that he wasn’t thinking of the Bill of Rights when he banned religious gatherings? While I don’t necessarily agree that state politicians have all overreacted as some sort of fascist overreach (Gretchen Whitmer excluded), I do think that there has been some overreaction and having sense of having to “show” everyone that they are taking it seriously.

            1. I think “overly zealous” might be a better word than “fascist.” Come on now.

            2. That’s not fascist. Fascism is the melding of military and economic powers. Basically all those “public/private partnerships” Republicans are always talking about are way closer to fascism than this.

         2. “Otherwise, people are just going to start breaking the rules willy nilly because they’re tired of it and going broke.”

            Yes, and then if there is a spike in cases it will be even harder to get things under control. I said yesterday that I think if the SIP continues into June, businesses will just say “F-it, fine me” and reopen. And those businesses who are defying shutdown orders will be patronized because people are so sick of this and sick of the ambiguity. Public health experts don’t seem to understand much about human behavior, or seem to want to understand it. Not even a global pandemic can change people’s hardwired motivation toward community and connection with other people. That’s been part of us for hundreds of thousands of years, because without community and connection with others, early humans wouldn’t have survived. Asking people to maintain SIP for more than a couple of additional weeks is going to have serious implications for overall health and wellbeing unrelated to Covid, in addition to what it’s going to do to the economy.

            1. That’s something I said from the beginning- we can do this for a little bit, but if it goes on, we’re going to start seeing widespread civil disobedience. I read yesterday that the cities are seeing speakeasies pop up now. I’d say we’re less then a month out from chaos if people don’t see some movement. Unless they’re ready to start shooting people in the streets, it’s just not going to hold.

            2. I have to admit I expected some of my haunts to draw the curtains and open up as speakeasys a long time ago.

            3. Yeah, I agree with this. My state (DC) extended the ban to May 15th, and I expect, if some restrictions aren’t lifted at that point to see people just ignoring the rules and we’ll be looking at protests (already happening in some states) and near riots.

               You can say a lot about various other countries and how they’ve managed to keep this going longer and people are following the rules, but like it or not, this was the country that coined the phrase “Give me Liberty or Give me Death”, and that ethos can’t be discarded very easily here. Politicians need to work within that.

            4. I don’t want to be too specific, but I work in a pretty niche consulting field, and we are already seeing the industry stretch what the state definitions of essential are to keep bringing money in the door. I can’t say I blame them. The risk is relatively low (in this case) and they can keep paying their employees. It’s only a matter of time before others follow suit.
               There’s an article on npr this morning about Emirates Airline doing rapid pre-flight testing so they can start flying routes again. Companies are going to find ways to bring money in one way or another, and the government needs to provide realistic guidance to make that safe.

      3. This is where I am. The original thinking is that we would do extreme distancing/lockdowns to flatten the curve and give space for hospital capacity and testing to ramp up. The curve is slowly flattening but the testing piece is AWOL and I blame the federal government. There is no way we can safely reopen things without a broad testing strategy and the White House is focused only on the opening and not on the conditions necessary. Meanwhile the feds are intercepting state shipments of supplies and they are going… where? We have to have a cohesive, coordinated strategy and every day that goes by without one I get angrier at the people in charge.

      4. This post made me think of Australia. They have completely lost sight and are trying to eliminate the curve. The police is finding people who don’t comply with stay at home orders, they even go to peoples houses to see if there’s someone who doesn’t live there (apparently they scan number plates on driveways). It is absolutely crazy. There is no talk of opening up, instead, they are now trying to pass a bill for the next six months that allows, for example, tenants with or without financial hardship to terminate fixed leases with no penalty, lease agreements can’t be terminated for six months (so an owner couldn’t, for example, move back in), no evictions for six months, free daycare to everyone… all state borders are shut, if you need to travel interstate, it requires two weeks of quarantine in the first state and another two weeks in the state you’re going to. This isn’t at home quarantine either, people are forced to stay in hotels. They are going overboard, how can they ever end this? I’m concerned because Australia is home (although not right now) and the bill will be massive and taxpayers will be paying it for a long time. And how many new cases do they have daily? About 3, in a state of 2.5m people.

         They all say that they don’t want to follow the steps of the US… but honestly, the US approach seems better – in Australia its just a popularity contest with no real thought to what will happen. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are in fact in lockdown until there’s a vaccine.

         1. That is so frightening.

            1. I think in the US, an ordered reopening would prevent the chaos that be how the Oz situation will likely end. Chaos, worse health outcomes, and an economy that has gone underground and a permanent reduced respect for the rule of law. Oz isn’t going to end well.

      5. The goal was to slow the rate of infections to avoid overwhelming hospitals, which has been relatively successful, and to give manufacturers and public health authorities time to ramp up testing and contact tracing so we can quickly stamp out flare-ups, which has not happened.

   6. Honestly, it’s been a rough week. Work has been chaotic, my toddler has been a nightmare, and my mom has been in the hospital (unrelated to COVID). I reached a breaking point yesterday, and DH and I agreed to have a sitter (who has been social distancing) come for a few hours every workday until this is over. Since my daughter is still naps in her crib, we can buy a few additional hours of work during that time. Really looking forward to this being over.

      1. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.

      2. We’re currently interviewing (virtually) sitters to set someone up. I think more people are doing this. Parents cannot keep this up indefinitely. It’s unsustainable.

         1. One of our friends (who is probably the most paranoid of all of us about the virus) has been having a college student coming this entire time. He and his wife have been WFH but work in hospital administration– so it’s not like their jobs are not absolutely essential right now, and they were not able to do them without childcare.

         2. At he risk of someone @’ing me: In case you need some company/validation: I am unabashedly doing this, and have been since day one. We’re taking all precautions we can. We know and trust the sitter, who is DD’s (now laid off) daycare teacher in normal times. DD is 23 months and is the scary combination if seriously dependent but has the attitude and confidence of being independent – she needs more attention now than she’s ever needed.

            Sitter’s been here from 9-1 (nap time) since day one. We are both WFH and trying to keep our jobs and our mental health. Beyond the babysitter, who lives by herself and is only seeing us/strangers out at the grocery store, we only go to the grocery store 1x/every two weeks and are not going anywhere near high risk family members, let alone any one else. Sister is an ICU nurse in our northeast city on the front lines. My grandmother has COVID and is unlikely to survive. The need for flattening the curve is not lost on me, but both my mental health and our jobs would 100% be at significant risk if we didn’t make this choice. There are a number of people I know doing it (as smartly as one can), too.

         3. I got a nanny as soon as daycare closed. It’s the only way my husband and I can get work done with a 4 year-old and 2 year-old at home.

            1. I have a 20 month old and 3.5 year old. I have continued to send them to daycare and if daycare closed, I would have hired a nanny immediately. It is impossible to work if they are around. I love my children to death but if you turn your back for a minute they are climbing on something or otherwise getting into dangerous situations. I would have had to quit my job by now if I didn’t have access to someone else providing my children care. My husband owns an essential business and I am at a firm.

   7. I’m tired of stats in a vacuum.

      More cases = more tests? more tests of just known sick people? more results came back today because things were closed for Easter?

      I’ve decided that the only #s that I can make sense of is excess deaths — last year, we didn’t have this. How many people died each day generally? How many more are dying now? That is probably due to coronavirus, either directly or indirectly. What is that % of the population?

      And what can you tell from that and maybe the hospitalized people — how did they get it? What underlying conditions seem to matter and which don’t? Does everyone in a household get it sooner or latter? If not, why not? Does it seem to be particularly worse among healthcare workers and bus drivers/grocery workers/janitors (assuming all other things being equal, is it because they are only exposed to the sickest of the sick? Inadequate PPE?)

      So many random stats with no context. If we tested 20K people in our state and <2000 people are positive, a lot of tests were for . . . people who thought they had symptoms but were wrong? People who just haven't tested positive yet but may? Wasted tests (and yet people feel that they cannot get tested)? And what about people with all the symptoms who were just told to stay home unless you have trouble breathing and are now better — do they ever know conclusively? They don't get counted as positive cases since they aren't confirmed.

      So much noise. So little meaning.

      1. +1 — stats can be made to support anything! So very frustrating. Has there been an update on that Iceland study where they tested a big chunk of the population and found half of those positive had no symptoms? That was several weeks ago now IIRC. Did those people ever develop symptoms? Do they now test negative?

         1. Iceland study:

            https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2006100

            Note they don’t have a lockdown, just voluntary social distancing.

      2. I would add hospital bed utilization to excess deaths.

         1. I find hospital bed utilization a very foggy measure, since normally available beds/population is already so different regionally, plus the crisis prep varies (some hospitals canceled some elective procedures, some canceled all, some increased beds by converting office space to brace for a surge), not to mention whether/when shelter in place was enacted in each region.
            Hospitalizations/population would more meaningful, imo.

      3. But even the death numbers are unreliable! New York is reporting COVID deaths for people who didn’t test/no test was performed.

         I’m completely with you on the lack of meaningful information.

         1. They aren’t testing everyone who ought to be tested.

            NY is actually undercounting deaths because only hospital deaths are included. People who die at home or on the street are not counted as COVID-19 deaths, even though there are many times more of these deaths than there were during the same period last year.

            1. But the point still stands that these numbers are all fairly meaningless and just guesses!

            2. The point is that our numbers are clearly under-reporting/low. Not meaningless. Not “just guesses”. Things are worse than we report.

            3. But we are also vastly underreporting testing the number of people that have it which skews the numbers the other way (dearth/hospitalization rates are likely much lower given most people with symptoms aren’t being tested and we know asymptomatic people can have it and they certainly aren’t being tested). Point is, the numbers are not really accurate. Also to the point about people dying at home, at least part of that may be from things that would have ordinarily been treated but aren’t because social services and doctors offices are closed or people are scared to use them.

      4. I’ve been thinking along the same lines, BUT, we have a wildcard here which is that we’ve all been socially distancing…which means not only have we not spread COVID-19, we’ve also not spread flu. Or any other contact-based disease. So the overall death numbers may look different because it’s hard to tease out if it’s fair to say 2020-2019= increase in death due to COVID-19…should really be 2020deaths-2019deaths+[deaths that have been avoided due to social isolation]. No easy answer.

         1. True, but I think we didn’t meaningfully change until mid-March maybe (when schools in my city shut down, maybe my state). At that point, much of flu season is behind us. And we’re driving less (so fewer car accidents). But it’s better than just random daily counts of people who are positive.

            The NYU study and its decision trees was at least something meaningful to read re outcomes by category. [So, if I were >65 or BMI > 30 or had diabetes / heart disesase / high blood pressure, I’d act very differently, but a lot of those people are nurses, doctors, bus drivers, and other critical workers and what is the guidance for them? Do we put them and their families and caregivers on pre-emptive quarantine or at least PPE on demand?] SO MANY QUESTIONS!

            Maybe the lesson is to urge the vulnerable to SIP going forward and mandate WFH for them / caregivers where possible and otherwise grant them humane layoffs so they can collect unemployment. Then let the rest of us back, trusting that if our loved ones are in the vulnerable group we have data telling us to distance from them and we will do just that.

            1. an employer can’t just lay someone off because they are old or otherwise ill! and if you quit you can’t get unemployment.

            2. I agree that an employer can’t just lay off people in high risk groups. However, wouldn’t it be possible to treat it like disability accommodation and, if the employer and employee agree that there’s no reasonable accommodation that allows the employee to do the job, have employment end? I don’t know much about unemployment laws, but I hope termination in this circumstance would qualify for unemployment.

            3. Taking an unpaid leave as a disability accommodation would possibly allow someone to collect unemployment (after the expiration of any paid leave) but that is something the employee would have to push, not the employer. Those people could be eligible for short term disability.

               Also, unemployment $$ is going to run out. With all of the newly unemployment-eligible people who previously weren’t eligible for unemployment and are now unemployed, there just won’t be money left for long. I’m talking about NYS specifically.

         2. yep, fewer car accidents and all kinds of things

            1. Not necessarily. Many states are reporting upticks despite significantly lower traffic levels. Generally speed related. MN experienced twice as many fatal crashes and deaths in the period between mid March and the beginning of April as compared both with the last year and previous 5 year average. People are still driving stupid and physics has its way with them.

            2. Great comment. According to this article the number of accidents has gone down but the rate has gone up https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/04/09/covid-19-cuts-car-crashes-but-what-about-crash-rates/

               PEOPLE BE CRAZY RIGHT NOW

            3. We are having people treat the empty streets like Indy with fewer wrecks overall but more catastrophic b/c you just shouldn’t go 90 mph on a ramp even if there is no traffic.

   8. Incredibly frustrated with my law firm’s management. Our system keeps crashing and has been down completely , rendering us unable to work for several days this month. Work is slow for everyone. But the message from the top is there is no excuse to have lower billing than typical. WTF are we supposed to do?! I am lucky to be healthy, to have a job, to be able to work from home…but this pressure to bill with no work is stressing me out more than the pandemic.

      1. can you catch up on CLE’s?

   9. I have so many feelings, and I’m so tired. I don’t want to be in this state for much longer. I don’t want going to the grocery store to cause so much anxiety. Going outside is great but seeing so many people in masks sometimes hits with this overwhelming sadness, moreso than when I’m at home in an environment that I can control.

      It’s frustrating to not have clearer direction and yet so many of the arguments I read on this board and others are so reductive. The truth is that if we continue the lockdown, already-struggling people will die due to complications of poverty (stress, hunger, diabetes, etc.). If we reopen everything, more people will contract COVID and the hospital systems could still become overwhelmed. What is the middle ground here? I don’t think that public health professionals are necessarily ignoring human behavior–I think they are dealing with something unprecedented and trying to model out a lot of different scenarios with little guidance and no historical precedent for how to handle a pandemic in a globalized industrial economy.

      I’m frustrated by politics and realizing for the first time in my life that, as a very privileged person who has never come into contact with the social safety net bureaucracy, I actually need a good leader to be reassured that we can be on the right path to getting through this. I feel the exact opposite right now at both the federal and local levels. I don’t know that any president could have dealt with this in a manner we find satisfactory, but Trump is on another level. States are on their own with getting ventilators and PPE, but he has total authority to reopen the economy of the states? His retweet of a #firefauci post really made me upset on Monday. Here is a man who has dedicated his life to this career, is doing the best he can, and he could be fired for the sole reason that Trump doesn’t like listening to experts and feels that this hurts him politically. Republicans who, on one hand, argue that life is invaluable when it comes to fetuses, now take the position that we’re spending too much money on saving lives due to COVID. Ugh, it all sucks.

      In positive news, I am so glad I have a partner to quarantine with. It has been a happy surprise for both of us that being cooped up together has not resulted in nearly as many spats or silly arguments as I feared. I’m exercising a good amount, meditating, and cooking healthy foods. I stopped drinking alcohol when it started making me feel worse. We have enough savings to live off of for a long time if needed. I am donating to local charities and grocery shopping for an elderly relative. I’m in much better shape than most. But this is really difficult, and I’m exhausted. /end

      1. “His retweet of a #firefauci post really made me upset on Monday. Here is a man who has dedicated his life to this career, is doing the best he can, and he could be fired for the sole reason that Trump doesn’t like listening to experts and feels that this hurts him politically. Republicans who, on one hand, argue that life is invaluable when it comes to fetuses, now take the position that we’re spending too much money on saving lives due to COVID.”

         Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

         1. Cosign. Was raised conservative Christian and while I acknowledge life at conception, I don’t get the indifference for poverty, elderly, healthcare system, etc that was a mess before the virus. It felt like no one cared.

   10. In Seoul: My partner and I had our first dinner out in six weeks. Our favorite bistro was practicing social distancing (french windows fully open, 6 feet distance between tables), and was anyways completely empty except for us. I was so happy I could cry. The owner was so happy HE could cry (and spoiled us with a bunch of free food) – restaurants have stayed open throughout the social distancing period, but people weren’t eating out much. I definitely had too much wine.

       It actually looks like we won’t do away with social distancing altogether, as the experts anticipate up to a TENFOLD increase in new cases within two weeks if we go back to “normal.” The government does plan to lift some restrictive measures, but will continue to ask people to wear masks and refrain from congregating in large numbers. We’ll manage.

   11. Fascinating getting dressed videos! Thanks for sharing!

       1. all credit goes to the poster who brought it to my attention :)

          1. Also loved these!

2. As someone who started working from home two weeks before my employer ordered WFH policy, I’m now starting to wonder if it might not be so bad if I catch Covid-19 during this period while work is super slow and we are all isolating from home, versus catching it when we all go back to work and work gets busy again. I live in NYC, and recently read some articles suggesting that about 80% of those living in NYC will catch the virus in the next year. So if it’s just a matter of time, and being relatively young that I will likely not require hospitalization, and taking advantage of the fact that work is slow, and I am isolating anyway, maybe it’s better that I get it before going back to work? Obviously, I’m not going to deliberately expose myself to it, but maybe I should not be so nervous about catching it right now. I think I would be significantly more nervous about catching it once we resume work from the office, and I’ll have to take public transportation everyday. Or maybe I have reached a point where I am suffering from cabin fever? Please talk me out of this crazy idea.

   1. The longer it is before you get it, the more likely doctors are to have found a treatment that works. A non-zero number of young and otherwise healthy people have got it and been seriously ill, to an extent that they will now have heart or lung problems for the rest of their lives.

      I keep having to remind myself of that too, hugs. If it helps at all, my cabin fever is so bad that I made two Shakespeare references on the same conference call this morning.

      1. This. NY Times had an article about how much medical treatment protocols for it have changed even in the last month.

         I accept I will likely catch it at some point but hoping that point is more like 6 months down the road when there is a lot more experience in how to treat it.

         1. That’s my thought too… the terrifying presentation originally was “There’s no treatment”… well now we know a lot more about it so it’s not quite as awful, and every month that passes they will know better how to treat it (ventilators are being deprioritized I think)

         2. Same here, if it becomes endemic and everyone either gets it at some point, I’d rather get it past the peak, where doctors have figured out treatment options and there’s a ventilator available if I need one. Now would not be a good time to get it on purpose because hospitals are overwhelmed, and there’s no guarantee you’ll only have a mild case. Don’t gamble with your health just because the numbers look good.

            But I also hope we get a vaccine sometime next year so this becomes a non-issue.

            1. ETA: doctors still aren’t sure if infected people have lasting immunity, so that’s something to think about as well.

   2. I do agree about fear of public transportation, and I am nervous as to when my two young adult children living in the city will resume work – most of what they do can be done remotely, but they will have some city-bus or subway travel. I’d be interested in hearing what public health officials say is the safer alternative of the two; of course, once one is declared safer, everyone will flock to it and it won’t be safer. I’d love to hear a pros/cons of bus vs subway and best strategies for avoiding.

      1. Best strategy for avoiding may well be cycling, depending on city geographies – lots of cities are temporarily increasing space allocated for active travel in recognition that people may not want to board buses and trams.

      2. I’d love to see government officials start thinking of creative solutions. One thought would be to encourage/require businesses to stagger start/end times. LA did it in ’84 for the Olympics and the effects on traffic were huge! You could do the same thing now to easy the number of people on public transit at any given time. Of course there’s still the risk of spread by contact but as we get more information it seems that close contact with actual humans is the biggest risk factor so if you could spread the number of people in the “morning rush hour” over 4-5 hours, you’d decrease exposure by 75-80% but so far I haven’t heard anyone really talking about these types of things

         1. That is a really good idea and would seem to be simple to do.

         2. I love this.

            Other ideas I’ve heard are things like opening restaurants at half capacity (or a maximum number of people per square foot). They wouldn’t have the jam-packed Friday and Saturday nights that make money for the entire week, but they would be able to have a steady-enough flow to get things rolling again.

            There are a couple of guys, I think in Tennessee, who locked themselves into a water treatment plant and are having everything delivered to them in a contactless manner. Since the virus hadn’t really hit their area when they went it, in was virtually certain that they all went in healthy and would therefore not spread it to each other. Could we do something similar with manufacturing plants – not lock people in, but have a limited, closed circle of contacts, and get creative about ensuring that outsiders don’t infect them?

            Can we open schools but have the students stay in the same classroom and have the teachers switch rooms instead of the kids? Keeps them from infecting seats, infecting people outside of their class, infecting people in the hallways, etc. Do temperature checks every single morning. Maybe do staggered start and end times to ease congestion entering and leaving.

            1. Yes, these are the practical ideas I want people to start talking about!

            2. But … There are so many labor problems without these special circumstances. And who would be a teacher under those conditions? Are they going to issue the teacher a hazmat suit? Same with waiters. Who is going to police all these activities, because anyone who has worked with the general public knows they won’t police themselves. So who? A security guard making 9$ an hour, a temp worker, waitstaff, and of course, teachers?

            3. there is a chemical plant in PA that makes polypropylene (it’s what all the flimsy, not quite-plastic, not quite-fabric materials are based on, so it’s vital for masks and gowns). They had 46 manufacturing workers move into work, providing them beds and kitchens, groceries, wifi, ipads, and a wage increase.
               Also the three astronauts that joined the International Space Station last week, spent two weeks in quarantine prior to launch.
               Yes, you can probably secure vital industries (or places where you can’t access medical care) with extreme measures. I guess if a large number of manufacturing jobs suddenly require astronaut-like separation from your social life, we need to be paying these workers more.

            4. Anonymous at 12:13, if you do not like my ideas, then YOU come up with better ones. Stop complaining that other people’s ideas are not “good enough” (because you have not thought about a standard of what constitutes a solution), put on your thinky hat, and come up with a better idea. Otherwise, zip it.

            5. You’re right anonymous at 12:13, we should just live in complete lockdown for the rest of our lives since we can’t come up with the perfect solution that satisfies all of your issues

   3. I don’t think you should purposely try and get sick now, but I do think there is a stress lifted when you tell yourself you will eventually get it. DH told me he expects us both to get it eventually because of his exposure back in March and that weirdly has helped me be less anxious. It is a “when” instead of an “if” and the only thing I can control is spreading it to others, which IS something I can personally manage.

   4. I think like this, too. It is just fast-forwarding to the end, vs the indefinite slow circling of the drain. If the only way out is through, let me get on with it. I am so low risk, can WFH, and have no family in my city, that if anyone should get it, so that maybe scientists will have more recovered people to work with to help learn more and get a vaccine, it should be me. I’d voluntarily get it at this point if someone could come to my house and give it to me. I have nothing better to do with my time and I think that more people having recovered from it would be better for all who have not had it and all who may get it in the future.

      1. +1

   5. No you’re right! It might not and probably wouldn’t be so bad, and you probably will at some point. Absolutely do not try to get it, you never know and you’ll risk increasing transmission, but I don’t think you need to be panicked too much about getting it.

   6. You might get it and it’ll just be the flu and you’ll be fine, or you might get it and need to be on ventilator when there are very few available and you still might not survive. Don’t try and get it because it could
      be serious, but also don’t stress if you do because it may be fine.

      1. Not trying to be combative but the ventilator shortage feels overblown to me, something like 80% of people who go on them die anyways. Like I get that we are trying to flatten the curve and make sure equipment is available but I just am failing to see how making more ventilators available is going to move the needle that much given the relatively low success rate.

         1. In any case, this person is thinking that it’ll just be the flu and it’ll be fine. And that could happen. Or it could have complications that we don’t have a treatment for. So I don’t think its safe to just say “oh go get it, you’ll be fine”.

            1. Of course not, but young healthy people also die of the flu each year and she also noted that it’s expected that 80% of the population in NYC is going to get it eventually anyways. If she’s going to have complications, she’s going to have complications at some point. I’m not saying she should go try to get it (and she isnt’ saying that either), but other than maybe advancements in treatment, I don’t think she or any of us are better off getting it later vs. now.

         2. Cuomo’s giving away the ventilators he *needed* two weeks ago. I agree the ventilator thing seems overblown.

            1. He was preparing for a scenario that wasn’t borne out, thanks to SIP measures. The fact that it seems “overblown” shows that we’re doing the right thing.

            2. I agree. The ventilator issue became less of a concern because of social distancing and stay at home order. Cuomo was preparing for a worst case scenario. Also, young healthy people die of covid also. I certainly wouldn’t take the approach that I’ll get it anyway. I don’t plan to go back to my office until June at the earliest. I’m very lucky that I can do my job 100% remotely.

         3. NYT had an article about this the other day– they have found that for people with this virus, they have a much higher success rate lying them prone with supplemental oxygen, which has lowered ventilator usage. It also means that the only people getting put on ventilators were doing especially poorly anyway, which is why there is such a low success rate from ventilators now.

            1. Right, but that’s even more of a reason to not stress about availability of ventilators…

            2. “Right” from 11:26–the stress on availability was BEFORE that was known though. And a sign the demand is down is actually a good thing. You don’t emergency plan for the best outcomes. If that were the case, you would have disbanded and defunded a lot of the groups designed to protect us from pandemics. Oh, wait…

            3. I was responding to the poster who expressed concern about ventilators not being available in the future.

         4. in the Bay area, 50% of people on ventilators make it. They aren’t sure why they see better numbers, but it has been consistent for a while now.

            1. I have to assume it has something to do with differences in the populations overall health. It’s not as those SF has magic ventilators that NYC doesn’t.

   7. Since you say you won’t deliberately try to go out and get it, I’m not sure what the “idea” is you need talking out of. Do you mean, like, instead of disinfecting your groceries you leave caution to the wind? I’m not actively trying to get COVID and am SIP to the letter, but I still don’t do stuff like that, so if you’re just looking for permission to let some of that go, granted! I guess I would just say, I think your thought process is a perfectly valid one to think to yourself, and as long as you aren’t doing anything to act on it aggressively it’s one way to mentally get through this rough period.

      1. I never did the wipe down groceries thing either – it’s just a step too far for me.

      2. In my state, there are more confirmed COVID-19 positives for grocery store workers than for medical personnel. It does make one pause when thinking that wiping down the groceries is overkill.

   8. I would be inclined to agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that immunity isn’t guaranteed. Reinfection has been reported so you could be dealing with the misery of being very sick (and potential organ damage) more than once.

      1. I think that “reinfection” is not really reliable info. For all we know, it was a bad test / not done right / recovery is rocky vs linear.

         It could be that this virus is like herpes, with flare-ups. But generally, it doesn’t seem to be like that. It is too soon to know and you need really good and reliable testing. Could it be another strain or something that is like chicken pox –> singles? We truly don’t know.

      2. There’s no evidence that anyone got ill twice. The people who are testing positive again are asymptomatic. So either it was a false negative and they never actually cleared the virus, or they somehow got reinfected with the virus but are asymptomatic. Neither scenario is a disaster. With any virus that can reinfect you after immunity wanes (and some can) the second and subsequent cases will be MUCH more mild than the first case. At worst the people who get this multiple times are going to have multiple rounds of a flu-like illness. We’re not going to have people needing ventilators the second or third time they get this, unless the virus mutates significantly (which it hasn’t so far and there’s no suggestion that it will, although anything is possible).

         1. I hear what you’re saying. Isn’t it a concern though that people can be reinfected/reactivated even if they themselves don’t get seriously sick twice? Being asymptomatic puts a person in a perfect position to infect others, so isn’t it really a concern that people continuing to be reinfected eliminates the idea of herd immunity, because then even those who are “immune” are vectors? Genuinely asking.

            1. In that case, vaccines would likely not work, we could never test people frequently enough to determine who is an aymptomatic carrier, and we would just have to adjust for life in which a lot of elderly people are on and off ventilators for years.

            2. As far as I know there’s also no evidence that the people who have tested positive a second time are infecting anyone. You can have viral RNA in your body without being infectious. Personally, I suspect they never fully “cleared” the virus and have had the disease since they first became infected (meaning their negative test was inaccurate) which means they’re very unlikely to be infectious at this point (you’re super infectious before you get ill and in the first week of illness; infectiousness drops off very dramatically after that, even if you still have virus in your body).
               I don’t think we know for sure though, but the experts don’t seem hugely concerned about this.

3. A non-COVID related question. As a bride, what are your general expectations of a bridesmaid?

   1. Caveat that this is for general times, not pandemic times:
      – Throw and/or show up for bridal showers (if travel not a factor).
      – Be social at the wedding and just convey a positive attitude throughout.

      I think this new trend of “making” bridal attendants do things for the bride / the wedding day is tacky as all get out. I don’t know where it started that bridesmaids are supposed to address wedding invitations, assemble favors, set up the chairs in the facility or do all the other myriad tasks, but that’s what you’re supposed to either do yourself or hire someone to do. These are your friends, not your servants.

      1. +1

         They are not your servants and their wallets are not your wallets. Their time is not your time.

      2. Really? I got married in 2004 and my bridesmaids came over for dinner and lots of drinks and we assembled programs and favours. We did similar nights for other friends and it was not seen as a big deal. Now my friend that got married at an island camp was another story as that was a full day of schlepping cases of wine and cleaning cabins with no showers available…

         1. I got married in 2002 and my bridesmaids offered to help address invitations. I skipped favors and my programs came pre-assembled, but it was pretty much the norm to help with that stuff if you were a bridesmaid. It wasn’t like anyone was “made” to do it – everyone always offered to help and it was a fun wine night with close friends!

         2. I think a night of addressing invitations with a local bridesmaid over wine or having the wedding party set up chairs after the rehearsal dinner is totally fine, and most friends are happy to help. I have done both and never felt like the person’s servant. That said, I never felt like it was some required “expectation” that bridesmaids help no matter what; I am sure if I wasn’t available to help with something, the brides would have been fine with that. As with most things in friendship, it’s good to be helpful when you can be (if you are the bridesmaid), and it’s good to expect people have robust lives and can’t always cater to you (if you’re the bride).

         3. I actually did do a friend’s invitations since I (at the time) was good at calligraphy, but I offered — versus an expectation. Schlepping cases of wine and cleaning cabins — a big fat no. If you can’t afford to do a particular type of party without burdening others, don’t have that type of party.

         4. 2 of my bridesmaids were my husband’s sisters, because that was kind of the norm in those days that you would include them, even though I’d only met them a few times. While we got along ok, we were not (and will never be) besties going out for drinks or bonding over choosing dresses. The idea of asking them to do something for me (other than wear the dress and smile for the pictures) would have seemed presumptive on my part. And they weren’t friends with my sister (MOH), who they barely knew, or my other girlfriends who they didn’t know at all. I’ve been a bridesmaid where I didn’t know the other bridesmaids, other than a vague “oh, that’s her friend from high school” or whatever.

      3. +1. I do not get this at all. Bridesmaids show up for the wedding (and their friend) and come to as many pre-wedding events as possible (notice I did not say ALL). Maybe plan a low-key bachelorette party, not a destination event for 10.

         1. +1

      4. I adore my sister, but honestly, she was the biggest pain in the ass bridesmaid and I wish I’d lowered my expectations to, “just freaking show up for the wedding,” which is about all she did anyway.

   2. I was married a long time ago but mine were “show up for the rehearsal and the wedding” and “wear the thing I have asked you to wear” (which in my case was ‘a black cocktail dress of your choice so long as it isn’t scandalous’).

      1. OTOH, the ask to groomsmen is “be on time, dressed, and SOBER.”

      2. This. All three times, heh.

         First time: Five bridesmaids, asked them to purchase matching dresses, I bought them matching shoes.
         Second time: Two bridesmaids, asked them to wear something nice they already owned, I vetoed one choice but no hard feelings.
         Third time: Just my son as Man of Honor and I bought him a suit.

   3. Buy a dress within the budget range provided to the bride. Show up at wedding in that dress in good cheer, be a good sport about pictures, be friendly and sociable to guests. Show up or throw one wedding related event (engagement party or shower or Bach party), if applicable.

      1. +1. This is perfect. While most bridesmaids will hopefully try to show up to at least one wedding related event, a reasonable bride should understand that that may not be possible for every bridesmaid, depending on their personal budget, schedule, and location.

   4. That they showed up at the right time & place and were generally their usual kind and friendly selves. But my wedding was about ending up married to my spouse at end of the day and absolutely not about the peripheral performance, much to my mother’s chagrin, so YMMV.

      1. Your mother is my former stepmother, who could not understand why my husband’s preferences were more important to me than her desire to put on a show.

   5. In general – the smaller the party, the easier. In hindsight I might have just have had my MOH, but a group of 4 worked well.

      -Show up on time for rehearsal, wedding hair and makeup (parents paid for everyone), photos, and wedding; in general behave like a mature person (didn’t have to spell that out; there is a reason these people are my close friends, but you’re representing the bride to everyone from colleagues to grandparents.)
      -Make reasonable efforts to attend shower (was a flight away so when one did not want to pay to fly, that was cool); attend bach party (local and low key)
      -Buy dress and do not complain it’s not your taste (I kept student budgets and universally flattering color and style – navy, knee length – in mind when choosing)

      Not expected – complicated plans or $ for destination bach, speeches, sitting apart from SO at wedding events, wearing/purchase of specific clothing or accessories for events other than dress itself and wearing neutral heels that everyone already had, doing any behind the scenes set up or clean up at events.

      1. When I get married, I will have a small ceremony. Rosa and Myrna will be my co-maid’s of honor. Dad will give me away with Mom, and hopefully my Grandmas will be there. Small ceremony with no muss, no fuss. I have it all planned. No honeymoon now, b/c of the virus, but we then will move in to the new condo Dad is buying in Manhattan. All that is left is for me to find the guy to be my husband.

   6. Seems like some hot drama stirring

      1. Haha, yes. Could be an innocent question for how to act as they anticipate being one of those things soon, or a juicy backstory….

      2. Ha! No drama stirring. I am just a bridesmaid in a wedding next year and want to know what the general expectations/time commitments are.

         Its been a few years since I was married and I generally didnt GAF about the traditional wedding stuff so my bridesmaids literally just had to show up for rehearsal and the wedding. My situation wasnt the norm so I didnt have much of a frame of reference.

         1. Oh, you definitely need to ask the bride what she expects because as you can see brides are different.

   7. The expectation/requirement is show up to the wedding at the appointed time in the appropriate attire. The extras – like throwing/attending extra parties or helping with wedding planning – are super nice things that your close friends might be willing to do for you. A bridal party is not the bride’s staff for the year plus it takes to plan a wedding.

   8. In my friend group (30’s, high achieving, urban, east coast and midwest) it’s:
      -show up to a shower or two
      -plan and attend a moderately low key bachelorette party (lots of nashville/new orleans/charlottesville/cape may/michigan wine drinking)
      -give input to bridesmaid dress preferences and wear whatever the group selects
      -maybe pay for hair and makeup if not provided by the bride. Wear your own neutral shoes/bag/jewelry
      -attend the entire wedding weekend with a reasonably good attitude, having made appropriate arrangements for childcare. compliment the bride all day, make it about the bride (not the bridesmaids) and be the first/last on the dance floor to get the people moving.

      Not expected: wedding planning chores (this is for the bride and the wedding planner)

   9. Talk with other bridesmaids to find dresses that everyone at least likes and look good together, show up a day or two before the wedding, walk down aisle ahead of me, be happy for me, have fun.

   10. Show up and help run interference with my mother so I didn’t strangle her.

   11. This is not responsive, but one of my favorite podcasters has a two-part series on Bridesmaid Horror stories. Be There in Five Bride Tribe parts 1 and 2, link to follow.

       1. https://www.bethereinfive.com/podcast/2020/2/7/bride-tribe-part-1

          https://www.bethereinfive.com/podcast/2020/2/12/i7d8a0x9eavq3b7zhku5v3rjbho685

   12. Show up to the wedding on time in the right dress and be a good friend.

       If local, attend a shower or two. If not local, try to if they can but understand that people have budgets and jobs and kids and are already making arrangements and sacrifices to travel for the wedding. I wanted my wedding to be something people fondly remembered being included in as a fun and loving day, not something that put them into credit card debt and strained our friendship.

       Don’t make a stink about the groomsman you’re walking down the aisle with.

       1. yup, that is all i expected as well.

          also – if you start dating someone 2 months before the wedding who the bride has never met even though you live in the same city, and you know that guests generally are not being given a plus 1 unless they are engaged/live together (as we were 26 at the time) and you know the bride had drama with her MIL about number of guests, don’t get mad when there is not suddenly extra space for your new boyfriend (note – they are no longer together)

          1. Haaa. This was one of my bridesmaids except it wasn’t even a BF. She just demanded a plus one, which she told me she would use on a platonic friend (possibly a female friend) since she had no eligible single man to bring. Mind you, she was a college friend and 80% of the guests on my side were college friends, so she knew almost half the people at the wedding and two other bridesmaids were close friends of hers who were also single and attending without dates. But apparently I was evil for not recognizing how painful it would be for her to attend without a platonic friend as an escort to an event where she had literally dozens of friends. We are no longer close.

       2. Big LOL to “don’t make a stink about the groomsman you’re walking down the aisle with.” My sister had to walk with DH’s college buddy who’s basically a redneck early-season Chandler Bing, stupid jokes and all, and she put a brave face on but I know she was very annoyed by him.

          1. Y’all. I’ve been in exactly one wedding and when I read this post I was like “hm I honestly don’t remember the groomsman I walked down the aisle with…who could it have been. OH IT WAS MY HUSBAND.” No more coffee for me today. Yikes.

             1. Aw! And haha. My husband’s sister is getting married soon and for the first time DH and I are both going to be in the wedding and I hope we get to walk down the aisle together.

          2. I once walked down the aisle with an 11-year-old boy who was the cousin of the groom! They told me they asked me bc I wouldn’t be difficult about it, and I was like…who would object to being in what will probably be the cutest photos of the wedding???

   13. In addition to showing up to the wedding on time and in good cheer, for most weddings, plan on being available the entire weekend. A large wedding will likely have a rehearsal and rehearsal dinner the day before. If it’s an out of town wedding, that often means you’re going to have to take 1 day off work to travel. The day of the wedding, there may be group hair, makeup, etc., and you often have to be ready early for photos. Don’t plan to get brunch with a different group of friends just because the wedding isn’t until 6:00. If you have a baby or small child, talk to the bride about what expectations for the whole day will be before you commit.

       Personally, I think the wedding reception should be the last required event. It’s become popular for the couple to host a breakfast/brunch the next day–that’s lovely, and may be appreciated by many guests, but it shouldn’t be obligatory if a bridesmaid wants to sleep in or catch an early flight out or visit a tourist trap or see another friend in the city. Not everyone feels this way though, and these events felt more obligatory toward the end of my bridesmaid days.

       1. Question, and I am purely asking out of curiosity having never been a bride OR bridesmaid, what about the after party? Almost wedding I’ve attended in adulthood has had one, and the plan is always to keep the party going until the wee hours of the morning, or until the bar kicks you out. Personally I’m not a super big fan of these, I’m usually exhausted after the reception, but is the wedding party typically expected to stay the whole time, or at least until the bride and groom turn in for the night?

          1. Personally, I don’t think an after-party should be obligatory. I was definitely a regular after-party attendee, whether I was a regular guest or member of the wedding party. But it’s common for bridesmaids and groomsmen to work hard all week to give themselves Friday off, travel long distances, not sleep well in a hotel, and spend all day with people the day of the wedding. In my opinion, it would be unreasonable of the bride to be upset that someone turned in at the conclusion of the official party.

             Also, depending on the age of your group, pregnancy and childcare become a factor in what people can be reasonably expected to do. My last time being a bridesmaid was when I was 7 months pregnant, and I left around 9:30 pm because I was so exhausted.

   14. IMO, in decreasing order of importance:
       1) Attend the wedding, barring something truly catastrophic like a parent’s death right before the wedding
       2) Be happy and supportive at the wedding and do what the bride or groom asks you to (assuming B&G are reasonable people)
       3) Be cheerful and supportive throughout the planning process. I think it’s reasonable to share budget constraints and things like that or to push back if you’re asked to buy a $500 dress or travel to Bali for a bach party, but keep your thoughts that the dress is ugly to yourself.
       4) Attend other wedding weekend events and be cheerful and helpful.
       5) Attend the shower if you’re local. I think a MOH should offer to be involved in shower planning but that’s not an expectation for non-MOH bridesmaids.

   15. My own expectations were “attend wedding wearing an outfit you like” and “help us out same day and if feasible for you, day before.” (Keeping is company, helping a little with set up etc.). When I have been a bridesmaid expectations have been similar but involved wearing dress of bride’s choosing and some additional amount of help setting up and taking down reception hall. I think my circle may have a more hands-on, low budget approach than many on this board, requiring a fair amount of actual hands-on help.

   16. I was married a zillion years ago in the days of matching bridesmaids’ dresses. I expected my bridesmaids to show up at the wedding, give input on the selection of bridesmaid dress so that I wouldn’t be torturing them or busting their budgets, and wear the dress.

       My bridesmaids were my actual friends, so we enjoyed spending time together. The local one threw a bridal shower with the help of other local friends, and the non-local ones did not attend but helped make the invitations and plan. I did not expect or demand a shower, but appreciated and enjoyed it very much. It never occurred to me to expect a bach party (no one in our circle had one) or that the non-local ones would travel for the shower. The local one asked to be involved in some of the more fun preparation, like shopping and looking at wedding magazines.

       My husband’s expectations of the groomsmen were similar, except that he also called upon one to wrangle his mother during the wedding. We are forever in his debt for that.

4. Help me make up for a stupid oversight.

   My wonderful assistant turned 60 last Friday and, being out of the office, I totally forgot about it. She was supposed to be on a beach vacation with her best friend and is really bummed to be missing that.

   Are there any national companies still shipping gift baskets, bouquets, etc? The local option isn’t right now (which stinks because they had a flowers and fresh fruit basket that would have been perfect for her.) Otherwise, I will probably put together a gift basket and deliver it myself.

   1. Do not worry. She has bigger things on her mind then getting a gift basket. She is 60. Congratulate her but warn her to maintain social distance. Even from you! She is getting to the age where she has to worry more about getting Corona then the rest of us who are younger. Call her and wish her the best and offer to take her out to eat once this is over. She will appreciate that alot more then a bucket of candy and fruit from you now.

   2. Yes. I just had a basket delivered to the caregiver who helped care for my grandmother who passed away last week. She’s 1000 miles away from me. Plenty of stuff online. Where are you that there is only one local option?? If not a basket or you are concerned re fresh food, you could also give a box of candy.

      1. Small midwestern college town :)

   3. I’d get her a gift card so she can get what she wants. If you don’t want to do a gift card, perhaps a fancy throw blanket. I’ve been eyeing the stonewashed cotton one from Garnet Hill, which looks so perfect and dreamy for summer, i really want it!

   4. Urban stems is shipping flowers/plants

   5. Edible Arrangements was still shipping the last week of March.

   6. Cheryl’s cookies is still shipping and has cute spring flower cookies right now if she has a sweet tooth. They are also individually packaged, so that might make her feel okay about receiving a consumable right now if she’s nervous about it.

      1. I second Cheryl’s cookies. They’re so good and really nicely individually packaged.

         1. Update: I checked out all the various recommendations and, on the Cheryl’s page, I noticed Harry & David’s and decided to go that route. (Maybe because it’s where our firm sends holiday gifts from so it feels “special”? I dunno.) I found a really nice “You Rock!” care package. Also made sure to tell her happy birthday and apologize for forgetting on the phone this morning. I miss her.

   7. I did an Edible Arrangements recently.

   8. Farmgirl flowers is delivering in some areas, they’re my go to.

   9. Try Box Fox, they ship through the mail (gifts and non-perishable snacks) so I think they can send pretty much anywhere.

      1. Oooh, wish I had seen this recommendation before ordering! What a cool concept!

   10. Burdick!

   11. I know they’re corny, but edible arrangement might be a good idea. Fruit is “beachy” and since people are avoiding the store it’s a nice treat right now.
       They have shipping delays right now, but Zingerman’s is always a delicious option!

5. Can someone comment on the sizing and quality of Lou & Grey? I’m seeing cute options, but I know nothing about the company.

   TIA

   1. I bought the Lou & Grey sweatshirt and sweatpants from LOFT last week (slightly different than those on Lou & Grey website.)

      I’m 5’0/115 lbs with a large chest, and XS fit me well. The xxs sweatshirt was a bit too tight.

   2. In cusp sizing, I find it similar to Ann Taylor, Halogen, and Vince Camuto and a bit smaller than Loft.

   3. Size down. I’m normally an XS top and I’m an XXS there. I am cusp on bottom and pear-shaped so would normally order a medium skirt when in doubt, but being familiar with their shirts, I ordered some midi skirts from there last week in S and they fit.
      My favorite white v neck tees are from there. a bit baggy and perfect for doing a french tuck into skinny jeans. I ordered a linen midi skirt that is more like a maxi and a midi skirt and matching tank in sort of sweatshirt material. I’m happy with all of it. I ordered a crop top with the linen skirt that is the same pattern and looked cute tucked into the skirt on the model but it is boxy and huge and hideous on me.
      Quality is fine but like ann Taylor, BR, or J. Crew it is priced to go on sale.

      1. I’m 5’4″ 112 lbs but, as mentioned, pear-shaped so I’m about two sizes smaller on top than bottom

6. Trying for a positive spin- anyone seen any data on flu deaths this year? I am wondering if all this social distancing has done any good for other major contact based viruses. Or any other viruses but that one comes to mind.

   (I know COVID-19 is not the same as the flu).

   1. This is an interesting question. I think flu season was over (not officially, just practically) in my area before people starting taking social distancing seriously.

      1. interesting. I’m in MA and two of my (vaccinated) kids got it last May so our season must be way longer.

         1. I’ve gotten the flu in summer months, one case turned into strep throat. Having a fever in July is awful. I know that’s way off-season though, but you can get the flu any time of year.

      2. In IL, we had a really bad flu season that peaked in mid-February – tons of kids at my kids’ school were out with both Flu A and B, as well as other virus, so that we had something like 12% absence rate one day. I think of flu season as ending by spring break (late March) but that’s a vague feeling/uneducated guess.

   2. Apparently the flu season was deep and bad in many places this winter – I know it was bad in Australia in their winter 2019 which is usually a bellwether.

      1. Are we sure it was flu and not coronavirus? I feel like in the winter of 2018-19 we knew what things were. Now, if I had the flu in January and had a flu shot, I’d question what it was that I had. I usually fly a lot and had the flu in prior years even after getting the shot (it was mild for the flu, but still knocked me on my feet for a couple of weeks with fatigue).

         1. Genomic analysis can tell us something about when the virus was here. Basically, unless you lived in Washington state, there’s no chance you had Covid in January 2020, and there’s no chance that anyone in the US had it in fall 2019. https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/coronavirus-circulating-california-2019-bunk.html

   3. I think, at least in the US, flu season was essentially over when we started social distancing. The season officially ends April 1 and most of us didn’t start serious social distancing until mid-late March so I doubt it had any real effect.
      I did hear some expert say that if we had universal flu vaccination we would have caught Covid cases much earlier (because people in the ER with fevers and coughing couldn’t be written off as flu patients). So I wonder if flu vaccination will be mandatory this fall, which would be wonderful.

      1. my body my choice = no flu vaccine.

         1. You’re living through a pandemic and still won’t get a vaccine………….? Right.

            1. Get over yourself Ribena, in America people can disagree. There’s absolutely no way that I’m taking a mandatory vaccine for this shiz or the flu. I am not down with a Bill Gates sponsored vaccine, and luckily for me, I already corona.

            2. Seriously, I can’t fathom how anti-vaxxers are still doubling down on their beliefs right now. While it’s tough to enforce mandatory vaccinations, vaccines are important and everyone who can get them should. Miss me with this “evil big pharma” conspiracy noise, please.

         2. Fine, but the government can make flu shots mandatory for kids who want to attend public schools and businesses can make them mandatory for employees who want to show up at work, and a heck of a lot of people will get them who haven’t gotten them before. We don’t need 100% vaccination – if we had 80 or 90% vaccination, we’d have much more herd immunity to flu than we currently do and the flu wouldn’t spread widely.

            1. omg. good for the people who want to get them. businesses in the US cannot just make vaccines mandatory for their employees. Also, why do you people trust the government so much? It’s crazy.

            2. I wouldn’t trust vaccines blindly either. Remember the swine flu vaccine and how it triggered narcolepsy in quite a few people in Scandinavia? Oops. The link was proven. And, knowing two people who were in their late teens and had their life destroyed because of it (ie. my cousin couldn’t go to college and study what he wanted because he is so tired, he can’t drive anymore because he fell asleep driving etc and the medications aren’t helping enough). I’m careful with new vaccines.

            3. Aren’t vaccines mandatory for healthcare workers? I know you’re just trolling, but businesses can totally require them in most states.

            4. I’m talking about flu vaccines, not a new COVID vaccine, which won’t be available in 2020. Flu shots have been around for decades and are proven safe. There are only slight variations to it every year.

               Businesses can absolutely require vaccination or proof of medical reasons you can’t be vaccinated as a condition of employment. My kids’ daycare requires all employees get a flu shot. It’s not that hard. No shot, no reporting in person to work. You may think it’s crazy, but it’s a h*ll of a lot less crazy than 1-2 years of lockdown.

            5. I’ve worked a few places where flu vaccine wasn’t mandatory, but those who didn’t provide proof of one had to sign an agreement that they may be asked to stay home and use leave or forgo pay if there is a flu outbreak in the workplace.

         3. Slight TJ but serious question: do you consider people who don’t routinely get the flu vaccine (but who are not rabid I-would-never-get-the-flu-vaccine), anti-vaxxers?

            1. No, for lots of people I just doesn’t occur to them to get the vaccine. It’s where you’re offered or advised to get a vaccine and you turn it down without a sound medical (or other) reason that you may be an anti-vaxxer for me.

            2. *it just doesn’t occur.

            3. In my opinion, depends on why. I think a lot of the time it’s something like “I’ve never gotten sick!” Or “I got the flu but it wasn’t very bad.” Which I wouldn’t consider anti-vaxx, just dumb + selfish. But when it’s “I don’t trust Big Pharma and the Government because I know someone who’s sisters boyfriend had the flu vaccine and he got sick!” Or some such BS, I assume they may generally be anti-vaxx .

               I have a chronic respiratory condition where the flu can make me very, very sick for a very long time and I am a pain in the ass about flu shots for people around me. A friend was doing the “I never get sick! What’s a little flu?” I told him that if he didn’t get the flu shot I would really reconsider spending time with him from October to March because no flu shot increased the risk of passing the flu to me, even before he was symptomatic. He got it and got it this year too so my plea to him to think about me and others worked.

            4. Yes but not as crazy as the people who won’t vaccinate their kids against measles and whooping cough. Like most things, there’s a spectrum and people who are anti-flu shot are at the less extreme end of the spectrum. But I consider anyone who is opposed to established vaccines that have been proven to be safe an anti-vaxxer.

            5. Depends on the reason, a lot of people just forget or don’t make it a priority to get one but would if it was easy (e.g., done in their office). But if they are actually affirmatively against getting a proven to be safe vaccine, yes, I consider them an anti-vaxxer.

            6. I was one of those who just didn’t bother to get the flu vaccine for myself or (I am so embarrassed to say this) my children. My children have always been fully vaccinated on the traditional schedule, but flu just wasn’t on my radar. A couple of years ago, when we were on vacation, my tween daughter got incredibly sick. We went to an urgent care center where she was diagnosed with influenza. The providers at the urgent care center questioned me extensively about her vaccination history when I told them my daughter hadn’t had a flu shot. They asked me point blank if I was anti-vax. My daughter was wheezing and feverish and I felt like the worst mother in the world. We will never skip the flu shot again.

   4. Yes, flu rates may have gone down, here’s one article https://www.idse.net/Covid-19/Article/03-20/Was-Social-Distancing-a-Help-in-Slowing-the-Flu-Season-/57839

7. On a light and fluffy note: Anyone else SHOCKED by the condition of their roots? I have close to an inch of regrowth and while I knew I was going gray — wow, it is really, really gray. At least 50% at this point, not just a few strays here and there, and much lighter than the brunette I get retouched every 4-5 weeks. Part of me says I should take advantage of this time and start growing it out for real, but I don’t know if I’m psychologically ready to rock this much gray. I’m turning 40 this summer, if that matters. I really think I have more gray than my 60-something mom. :(

   1. I have long thought that emerging from this will be like emerging from a 3-month coma. At least we can still tweeze! But my ends are so dry that I’m really thinking of trying mayo as a conditioner.

   2. Funny I just thought this last night and ordered some PINK semi permanent dye! yes, my hair is brownish red apparently. I haven’t seen more than a couple of centimeters of my roots since 2012. Hoping the pink looks cute. I can’t dye my hair crazy colors usually but what else do I have going on right now?

   3. I’m 59 and decided to stop coloring my then-blond hair in January after 30+ years of doing so. My hairstylist started by essentially highlighting the heck out of the ends to blur the roots. I am so grateful that I started the process but am shocked at what’s underneath: almost all white up front and gradually mixing in some fairly dark hair by the time you get to the back of my head . Probably 80% sure I’ll keep on this path, but does anyone have recommendations for products to keep the white bright and not dingy?

      1. My mom, who has gorgeous grey hair, swears by Joice purple shampoo.

      2. I use Jhirmak’s purple shampoo. Yup, the same one…

   4. This is not the same but as soon as my hairdresser reopens I’m going for a major chop!

      1. I have been growing out my hair out for a year but now I’m dying to cut it off. I have never wanted a haircut more intensely now that I can’t get one.

   5. No, because I dyed my hair purple in a mid-SIP breakdown. I figured, when else could I ever do that?

   6. I never dye my hair, and yet I seem to be suddenly going gray in 2020! But I know mynhair responds to stress, so…

      1. My pixie is rapidly growing out and the scattered grays are a lot more noticeable now. I kinda like them. I’m going to give it another year or so to decide if I want to commit to coloring them or just letting ’em be.

   7. Yes! I was a natural blonde where I was younger, to the point that when I died my hair red in my 20s my roots looked grey when they grew in because they were blonde. Now I’m shocked by how DARK my roots are. Like I’m a brunette now I guess? I’m wondering if I should dye it close to my root color and just embrace it but I’m sure I’d mess it up.

      1. Yes, my pixie cut will need urgent attention, but I’m not sure if I’ll continue to color or just embrace the increasing number of white hair coming in. My (colored) auburn hair has been part of my identity since I was a teenager, but any events that would have been on the calendar this summer are no longer, so… might be time to find out what I’d look like if I go natural or color it to match my roots.

   8. I feel like I am grayer every time I can see my roots and they are so white, it’s making it look like my hair is thinning or that I have bald spots… I turn 37 tomorrow and was contemplating for how many more YEARS am I going to dye my hair. Not to mention, my hair grows so fast that I need to root touch-up every 2-3 weeks and box dye it every 4-5. I guess I’m somewhat lucky that I found a box dye (Olia Darkest Platinum Brown) that actually gives me a 100% gray coverage and I am super capable of doing it myself.

8. Hi Housecounsel – Several months ago I wrote a post about my husband’s snoring and I’m *pretty* sure it was you that recommended QuietOn earbuds, but you had just gotten them. I didn’t get them at the time b/c they are so expensive, there are so few reviews online, and even though you liked them you hadn’t had them for very long yet.
   SO I’m hoping for a follow up, do you still like them? Do you still find them effective? Any side effects?
   Thank you!! I might need to go for it. And if I’m mis-remembering who recommended them, apologies!

   1. Not Housecounsel but I bought some based on that post. They’re just too big for my ears, which isn’t surprising because my ears are very tiny. I didn’t get it together to return them in time. So if you want to buy mine, I’d be happy to sell them to you.

      1. Thank you. Shoot, what a bummer, they are so pricey! I feel like I have small ears too so I might have the same problem. (I appreciate the sell offer, but if I do take the plunge this is something I’d rather buy new/unopened, no offense meant whatsoever).

   2. Yes, it was me! Fit is not an issue. It took me a few nights to get used to the feeling, but now they don’t bother me at all. Do they work? Not perfectly. They do help. The noise cancelling feature isn’t as good as it is in regular headphones, but who can wear those to sleep? I still occasionally wake up from my husband’s snoring but definitely not as often. If I lost them, I’d order another pair.

      I wish I could give you a more rave review. They’re good, but not great.

      1. Thank you! This is helpful.

   3. I know this is not what you’re asking about and I can’t recall the earlier discussion so please ignore if this isn’t helpful, but my husband also snores and I slept so badly for about a decade. It was awful. He finally got tested and went on CPAP and both of our lives are so much better. Worth exploring if you haven’t already (whenever clinics are allowed to start scheduling visits like this again).

      1. Yeah, after months of waiting both to get through some intro appointments for the doctor to decide he qualified, and a long wait for the actual sleep study appointment, it was supposed to be… last week.
         I am not holding my breath for when he will be able get in again. Sigh.
         (Thank you though, I obviously ultimately agree with you and it helps to hear success stories).

9. My long time boss got laid off yesterday. I feel awful, and definitely some survivors guilt. So far we exchanged brief emails, but I also wanted to give them time to process. They did not have very many other direct reports. I do feel like I should call them at some point soon, but not really sure what to say. I’m terrible at this kind of thing. But I don’t want them to feel like they went off into the abyss and no one cared.
   So I guess I’m just asking, any advice? What would/would you not like to have heard from your coworkers in the first few days after a lay off? We’re friendly, but not hang-out-on-our-own friends if it helps to know.

   1. When I left a position I’d been in for many years the hardest/worst part was the silence from former colleagues. Even just a “We miss you!” text/email would’ve been appreciated. I was surprised by hard it has been to adjust, and that was leaving by choice, not being laid off.

      1. I really wish I’d known this a year ago. I feel ashamed to admit this, but until last September or so, it hadn’t occurred to me how important it was to reach out to former bosses and colleagues who’d been let go.

   2. That is really rough, and I’m sorry. I think you’re doing exactly the right thing, reaching out but also giving them time to process. At some point, I would send an email that shares what you enjoyed about working with them and offering to keep in touch if they’d like.

   3. I’ve been laid off. Depending on your relationship, things I appreciated were:
      1. Expressing shock and dismay (my layoff was a total shock to me, and apparently [unless they were all lying] to all my coworkers as well- direct reports, peers, the entire c-suite except the CEO who is the one that did it to bring in his college friend to replace me)
      2. Sharing how great it was to work with me
      3. Networking like hell on my behalf– I had old bosses (still within the company I was laid off from) ask me if I would be looking immediately [oh! also, I was 5 months pregnant to boot!], and did tons of intros. A former colleague emailed me every time a recruiter reached out to her just in case I was interested, since we had similar roles/functions. My old team had some pretty senior people on it, and every one of them offered to connect me with people from companies they used to work for. A few of the junior people sent sweet messages and kept in touch and said politely that as soon as I land, let them know and they will jump ship to work with me. I even had the head of sales reach out and say “I need you to land somewhere great, because as soon as you do, I’m going to come work with you.” Even if most of that stuff was lip service, it made me feel less ragey to know that I had built a strong network.

   4. I got laid off recently. My work mates had a happy hour zoom to toast me. I’m happy about the lay-off and they know it (it’s an absolutely miserable place to work for everyone) so the call alternated between congratulations and we will miss you.

10. With the recent news about how important BMI is for this disease, I’m starting to obsess and don’t know how to stop. I don’t have a scale but my guess of the 10-pound range I’m in would put me at a BMI of 28 to 29.5, barely non-obese, and that is definitely from fat and not muscle.

    Through my life I’ve always been around this size and I’ve actively tried to accept it and not hate myself or spend all my mental energy on dieting (hence not owning a scale). My actual health numbers for blood pressure, diabetes, cholesterol, etc. are good, and my doctor has not suggested losing weight before.

    I have been thinking about my excess weight as a cosmetic issue that I should accept, and now the idea that 15 or 20 extra pounds could kill me is absolutely terrifying. I’m not sure what I’m asking here, exactly, just really scared, feel like I can’t control anything, and wish I could turn back time to care more about my weight and less about being gentle with myself.

    1. If your stats are good, I think you have far less to worry about than if you were pre-diabetic, had blood pressure issues, heart issues, etc. I am sorry you’re feeling this way and I am not a doctor, but your overall approach to weight sounds completely fine and healthy. Do not let the scare stories invade your brain (and that includes some really gross threads on this board).

       1. This. Be the healthiest you can be, and the importance of weight wanes. BP, blood sugar, heart health (a lot of which is determined by our genes, so control what you can), smoking, etc. matter. Don’t beat yourself up over just the scale #s.

    2. Wow stop this is all insane nonsense. Your problem isn’t weight it is anxiety.

       1. Why is it insane nonsense? Did you read the recent study that basically the 2 most relevant factors for being hospitalized were age over 65 and BMI over 30?

       2. Actually it’s both. Americans are shockingly large and it’s widely ignored.

          1. Yep. Whenever I leave my mostly-very-fit area of the US, I’m stunned by how many people are just so absurdly massive. And we’re not allowed to talk about it! Insane.

             1. Give me a break. “Not allowed to talk about it?” Obesity-bashing is a full-on hobby, the diet industry is a multi-billion-dollar scam, billions are being poured into obesity research and prevention, fat people are constantly bombarded with “well-meaning” comments from friends and family…I could go on for days, but your post is 100% false.

             2. Pure Imagination, I absolutely hate body-shaming and people of all body types should feel comfortable at social events. But I will also note that the few people who body-shamed me the hardest, literally when I gained two pounds, are overweight women. And I would be the world’s biggest jerk if I pointed out that maybe they are not exactly in a position to run their mouths about my size 4 waist.

             3. You’re right, I should’ve said “not allowed to talk about it without someone getting rude and huffy about it.” Better?

             4. They ran their mouths because they are bad friends or grouchy people, not because they were overweight.

             5. We don’t have to accommodate your prejudice and frankly don’t care if you feel slighted or not “allowed” to discriminate freely. You SHOULD get pushback when you judge people for their natural body sizes. You SHOULD encounter huffiness when you describe people as “so absurdly massive” on a post expressing anxiety about COVID-19 and obesity. This thread isn’t for you and please rest assured, there will be no shortage of fat-bashing in the world even if you leave it. Everything you want to say to us fatties? We’ve heard it all before.

             6. You are correct. Our bodies are not made to carry excess weight and being this overweight is a new thing. It wasn’t like this until recently. I was watching a comedy show filmed in the 1980s and when they panned to the audience you could see the majority were not fat.

                This is not rocket science. Extra weight puts additional strain on our bodies and our lungs. Basic logic tells us you don’t want excess weight pressing on your lungs as you fight off COVID-19.

                We can continue to pretend this isn’t true. But it doesn’t change the fact that we are best able to fight off COVID-19 if we aren’t simultaneously asking our lungs to bear more weight then nature and evolution intended.

             7. @Pure Imagination, when you use the term ‘natural body sizes’ do you believe that your average American is overweight without the cultural influence of the US? In other words, if an obese American were to live in Paris and adopt the fresh food walking culture would they still be obese?

             8. @ Anonymous at 2:05, I agree that there is major cultural and environmental influence. Of COURSE those factors affect body size. However, people acting like fat people can just stop being fat if they choose and therefore reduce their COVID-19 risk is not acknowledging the role of environment either. For a woman working two jobs living in a poor city in a food desert with no time to exercise, her BMI of 32 may well be her “natural” size in that environment. I simply fail to see how these faux-incredulous “how can people be so fat” posts are contributing to the conversation in any way. I’d be happy to see and participate in a conversation about how best to encourage healthy environments and behaviors without focus on body size. In an ideal world, we would all be able to eat varied, healthy diets and exercise in fun and challenging ways regardless of our body size. We’d all have access to affordable, fresh, and healthy foods. We’d all have access to supportive medical care, including nutrition advice and exercise coaches, in addition to health insurance.

             9. There are poor people in other countries too and they aren’t cartoonishly fat like some Americans.

          2. Noticed this in Disney World recently and my mom. It’s just….baffling how the average BMI is probably 30+. We were with a woman who was probably 150 or 200 pounds overweight and we ended up splitting off from her and her mother because she could not walk at a reasonable speed for more than a dozen yards or so without having to stop to take a break.

          3. So, I’m not saying any of you are wrong, and I’m not saying it isn’t a topic worthy of bringing up in some place or time, but I’m going to kindly suggest (before this particular thought chain gets much longer) that that time & place might not be best exactly here (on a post from someone already worried about their weight and subsequently worried about dying from COVID).

    3. Hugs. Please do not beat yourself up. Please recognize that healthy sustainable weight loss has absolutely everything to do with being kind to yourself. Now is not the time to quickly lose weight.

       If you feel the need to be proactive, the absolute BEST way to start a weight loss regimen is to track everything you are normal eating right now for a period of at least a week. Ideally two. Start there if you must.

    4. BMI is just one of many data points. You sound healthy.

    5. I’m similar to you but maybe one BMI point higher. I also work out six times a week and ran a half marathon last month. I worry about doctors assuming I’m unhealthy by looking at me and making judgements about the state of my health based on that rather than by asking me.
       I try to focus on health and happiness rather than size. I joke that I’m happy with my body until I go clothes shopping, just as I’m happy with being single until I try dating.

       1. This! I’m also BMI in the 28-29 range. I have the highest BMI I’ve ever had in my life…and also the best cardio shape and muscle strength in my life.

    6. I’m not a doctor or a scientist or a statistician. But my guess is that the statistic of high BMI numbers correlating with COVID deaths are probably representing other conditions that often (but not necessarily) occur together with a higher BMI — high blood pressure, diabetes, you know the list. My guess is that it is these conditions themselves that are correlated with COVID deaths but the BMI ends up in the soup too, and is an easier headline to write. I would spend more time worrying about your eating habits, exercise and general health rather than the BMI number. If your indicators are good and you don’t have any conditions, my guess is you would be fine.

       Taking care of your health is always important, and that includes your mental health — keep being gentle with yourself.

       1. I agree with all of this. BMI is often reported as the “risk factor” but once you dig into the actual stats its some other risk factor that has a high correlation with high BMI (e.g., hypertension, high blood pressure, diabetes).

          I think we all should be smarter about making healthy choices right now if only to be in the best possible position when/if we get this. But the goal shouldn’t be weight-loss, just generally being healthy (which it sounds like you are).

          Also, although not directly correlated this reminds me of the discussion in Expecting Better about weight gain during pregnancy and how you’re “at risk” for a bunch of stuff if you are outside the recommended range, but it’s not as though there is some magical cutoff that happens if you gain 36 pounds while pregnant as opposed to 35. Statistics require hard cutoffs but biology generally doesn’t have cliff cutoffs.

       2. I agree – considering that “metabolic disease” was also a highly ranked risk factor, I suspect that’s the driver here. Plenty of obese people are metabolically healthy and you cannot tell someone’s health status from their body size, period.

       3. Agree: BMI correlates (often enough) with things that correlate with good health (good diet, exercise a lot) for there to be a relationship between BMI and death from a respiratory illness. But that correlation has some obvious limits.

    7. Go for a walk. It’ll calm your nerves (at least it does for me) and is hands-down the best way to start strengthening your body if you’re somewhat deconditioned. Note that I didn’t mention weight at all.

    8. I am obese, and I have just accepted at this point, there is nothing I can do about COVID-19 if BMI really is a risk factor. Of course, I’m trying to eat healthier and exercise more, and have actually lost about 20 lbs YTD, but any amount of weight I could realistically lose isn’t likely to tip the scale (pun intended) either way if I actually get COVID. However, I have good–even a bit low–blood pressure, no heart issues, not pre-diabetic, etc. Maybe I would feel differently if that wasn’t the case, but I’m just following all the guidelines about social distancing, minimizing trips to the store, etc. I’m not totally quarantining myself like I might try to if I had a compromised immune system or other pre-existing condition known to increase COVID risk.

       1. Are you me? I’m in a similar boat, and pretty frustrated that for the first time in my life I had been finding solace at the gym, which resulted in losing about 15 lbs since the start of the year. It finally dawned on me, at 40, that I needed to try my hardest to shed any extra weight that would be additional risk factors for things like heart disease and diabetes. If I caught Covid tomorrow, I’d still be obese — the scale just can’t move that fast. But it has strengthened my resolve to get my body into better shape for whatever the future holds.

       2. Yup. Same here. And I have asthma. And I’m pregnant. So… lovely! All we can do is what we can do. Around here, we eat healthfully (with a few treats), walk dogs a lot, and try to get adequate amounts of sleep. We are also social distancing to the max, and expect to do so longer than most. (We are thankful to have jobs that will allow it.)

    9. We don’t know enough yet about what obesity means in terms of your risk of COVID-related hospitalizations. Yes, there’s a correlation, but there is not enough evidence for causation. People who are obese tend to be lower-income, smoke, and have other risk factors, including poor diet, and we simply don’t know enough yet to determine whether the risk is from those factors rather than the obesity itself. I’m almost exactly the same BMI as you and I’m not worrying until we know more.

       It’s also important to note that there is no scientifically proven way to lose weight and maintain the loss for more than five years; about 95% of dieters regain the weight and then some according to more recent studies (the NYT article a few years ago about the fraud that is The Biggest Loser is helpful to learn more). Don’t beat yourself up about not being able to do what is virtually impossible! Just eat a varied diet, get exercise because it’s relaxing and good for you in many ways, and take care of your health otherwise and I think you’ll be okay.

    10. The fact that you’re using words like terrified and obsessing– and that you’re feeling like everything is out of your control — tells me that a lot of intensity about this pandemic situation is landing on the weight issue. If you can, pause, step back, and let all the stuff about weight rest for a few more weeks until you can have a conversation with your doctor about it.

        In other words, for right now, try to separate whatever is going on in you because of the pandemic (fear, anxiety, feeling out of control, etc.) from thoughts and questions about your BMI. Because, objectively, you can’t instantly change your BMI anyway. All you can do it take steps to be healthy, which you’re doing. So keep doing that, talk to your doctor at some point, and recognize which parts of this are coming from other, more general anxiety.

    11. Are you female? Then you’re ahead of the game. Men get hit worse.

        1. Yes! In my state 55% of cases are women but only 32% of deaths are women, so men are about three times more likely to die if they get the disease.

           1. Yes, but it is just a magnifying glass on what is already the case: unhealthy people die more often (that includes, generally, all of the above and men, since they are generally less healthy than women; estrogen may be what overall helps save us if we are in the 65, we had that much time with it vs men).

              1. I think there has to be more to it than just men generally being less healthy than women. For one thing, virtually all of the cases on the news about young, healthy people (David Lat, Nick Cordero, several non-famous people, etc.) getting seriously ill and needing ventilators are men. None of those people had serious chronic illnesses or were obese. For another, apparently women get autoimmune diseases at 5 times the rate men do, so it seems like there’s evidence that women have stronger, or at least different, immune systems.

              2. Nope. It is because we have to X chromosomes, which mean that we have two different types of cells; men have one. It is very unlikely that the virus can attack both types of cells, so women are hit less hard.

    12. I think obesity is a risk factor because obese people are way more likely to have heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes. Pretty much all the biggest risk-factors except asthma are heavily correlated to weight. If you are healthy I really wouldn’t worry too much. Also you’re not obese.

        1. Spouse technically isn’t obese, but he’s a cheeseburger and a rounding error away from it. So I think it has gotten his attention.

    13. Please don’t obsess over this. Trying to lose weight when you seem to be otherwise healthy, in a pandemic when you can’t go to the gym, is not an achievable goal. BMI is not an automatic measure of health. Per my BMI, I should lose weight, but my % of body fat is lower due to lifting weights. You stated you also have more muscle. Clearly BMI isn’t the end all, be all, measure of fitness and health.

        I had a physical in January, and all my bloodwork, blood pressure, blood sugar, is great. I’ve never had concerning bloodwork. Any COVID19 correlation with BMI is probably due to some folks with a higher BMI also having diabetes, heart disease, high cholesterol, etc-not just BMI. These conditions are also seen in people with a lower BMI.

11. How bad was what I did yesterday? I went to do our once-every-12-or-so days grocery purchase. The market was busy but not what I’d call crowded. They do not have 1-way aisles yet. I’ve shopped here once or twice since mid March (it’s pretty much my only adventure into the Real World) and it’s the least crowded it’s ever been. In the past, people gave eachother a really wide berth, trying to stay as close to 6 feet apart as possible.

    This is the first time I’ve been since masks have been commonplace. Everyone was wearing them. I had one with me and put it on when I got into the store. Everyone was so close to me, in a big hurry to get out and not paying any attention whatsoever to keeping distance (yes, 6′ isn’t always possible, but wait for me to get my thing before you reach over to grab yours). So, I got annoyed and took off my mask to see what would happen. Guess what? You’d think I had the plague and nobody came near me for the rest of the trip. People hurrying down the aisle stopped and turned around and let me finish before doing their thing. They…actually kept their distance. I put it on when I got near the check-out (even though they are now plexi-glassed).

    My mom was absolutely horrified that I might have subjected the public to my germs. DH agreed with me and said if he had thought of it he’d have done the same thing. Our family has been extremely disciplined about social distancing and hand washing. We don’t leave the houses/yard except for walks around the neighborhood. We have 3 acre zoning so we barely even see our neighbors, let alone pass them at a close distance. We let mail and groceries hang out for days before we touch them, and when we do, we wash our hands. I wouldn’t say we are straight up quarantined, but I feel very, very good about the fact that I am not currently infected but asymptomatic. Our town of 20k people has had 8 total cases and no new cases in the past 2 weeks. DH and I have WFH for over a month.

    I’ve read that people are using (homemade and/or non n95) masks as a substitute for social distancing and from my experience yesterday it was 100% true. So, I guess, in y’alls opinion, was I being wreckless?

    (FWIW I think my mom was also horrified that I took off my mask in public leaving me susceptible to germs…she doesn’t really understand the purpose of these masks is to prevent MY germs from spreading, not protect me).

    1. I am far more bothered by the people I see using masks incorrectly. Taking them off and putting them back on, pushing them down under their chins, or even pushing them out of the way to smoke, plus the total disregard for social distancing. I’d rather social distance myself and maintain my own good hygiene practices than be a foot away from someone who doesn’t have the sense to not mess with a mask once they put it on.

       1. Does it matter that much for their current purpose? It’s not like these are n95 masks designed to stop you from getting infected and if you touch the outside the germs will get on you. We’re wearing reusable masks to cut down on the airborne risk of infecting others.

          1. Here is why: If we assume that wearing a mask would hold back some of your own hypothetical germs(homemade mask about half the efficiency of surgical mask), then touching the mask and fiddling with it means you are transferring your germs from the mask to your hands and subsequently to any surface/product in the supermarket that you touch. That also means it is not such a big deal when you are out on a walk, since you won’t touch many things that other people also touch. It also means it’s good practice to just grab what you want in the supermarket, and not sort through a pile of avocados to find the right one (I think most people are mindful of that).

             1. But wouldn’t you still get germs on your hands when you put the mask on, touch your purse, use your shopping list, etc? And already have germs on your hands anyway unless you’re sanitizing your hands before you enter the store? It matters but it’s not like you’re taking a clean situation and contaminating it. It’s only marginally worse.

             2. Not sure how to say this without sounding snarky, I swear I don’t mean to: No, if you follow the hygiene advice of washing hands for 20 seconds, not touching your face, and using hand sanitizer when out and about, your hands would not spread the virus. If you have it, you spread it through your mouth. Unless you breathed or sneezed on your purse, it shouldn’t be there. The mask is filtering your breath, so it could potentially hold a high amount of virus, if you are shedding it.
                I know microbiologists love to announce that your body and everything around you is constantly covered in microorganisms, but that doesn’t mean everything is always infectious. There are many kinds of germs (harmful, helpful, boring), and right now we care about the coronavirus, which spreads from people’s respiratory system.
                My supermarket offers every shopper a pump of hand sanitizer when they enter, which I find useful.

    2. I think you’re looking for applause for being a drama queen and you’re not getting it from me. Grocery stores inevitably involve less than 6 foot distance. Which is why we have been asked to wear masks.

    3. Since you asked, it seems like a weirdly aggressive response. Why couldn’t you say “excuse me, social distancing!” to someone crowding you?

    4. I’m sure I’ll be called a terrible person, but I found this hilarious.

       My boyfriend and I go on walks around our neighborhood where it is very easy to keep away from people, but we still have people who pass closely (which I honestly don’t worry about the less than 10 seconds they are closer than 6 ft to me, but the BF is paranoid) and he got so frustrated that he decided he’d start coughing and hacking as they approached.

       Also, I don’t think you increased your risk all that much. Like you said, the masks are to protect others. Another thing we don’t consider is that while a good mask probably does protect healthcare workers in a COVID ward where multiple sick people are coughing and spitting and barfing, the amount of actually infectious virus floating around in the average grocery store is nowhere near as high and masks are not as crucial, not that I’m advocating disobeying orders to wear masks in grocery stores.

       1. Hilarious was my thought too. Whatever works!

    5. FWIW, I was out yesterday in NoVA and about 50% of people were wearing masks, but everyone was good about distancing.

    6. I share your observation that some (not all) people get less careful about social distancing with a mask. I don’t necessarily assume that they are lazy or reckless about it. Masks are a way more visible reminder that ‘we are all doing something’ than the social distancing, so seeing the starkly unfamiliar sight of everybody in a mask is a very strong cognitive signal, if you compare it to social distancing, which is just a little weird and doesn’t stand out so much, perception-wise. So maybe it gives people a false sense of security, or maybe they just focus on getting out of a supermarket quickly and don’t pay attention.
       While you decide how to proceed re: masks, I just want to propose another factor to consider. You can write on here that your family is very careful about self-isolation, and I believe you. But the stranger in the supermarket only sees a person without a mask, without all that context. You know as well as I do that they can draw a number of conclusion. Maybe they just judge you for being reckless, and you don’t care what they think about you. Maybe they feel uncomfortable wearing their own mask and so it feels very unfair to them that they are the only sucker that sticks to the rules, similar to how we judge people not distancing on this board. Ultimately, everybody has an individual level of patience and willpower for this whole crappy situation. For me, it definitely helps to see other people trying their best, strangers wearing their mask, random people smiling and saying hi while passing each other on walks, and cheering each other on with the comments here. So you wearing your mask has that effect, too.

    7. I had not heard of and didn’t know about one-way aisles until this morning, when a lady scolded me for going the wrong way. I hadn’t seen the arrow at the front of every aisle. I don’t look down when I am walking! Now I know.

    8. Yes, since the wear masks orders came down, people have been slacking on social distancing here in Brooklyn. It’s good to remind people.

12. In case any of you wonderful ladies are looking for an escape… Here are some links to videos of virtual tours of gorgeous Kentucky horse farms and their four-legged residents (one has a new colt!) I have a few horse farms near me, but nothing this gorgeous…. makes me think I need to add the Kentucky Derby to my bucket list.

    https://visithorsecountry.com/virtual-tours/?fbclid=IwAR089FSql6aP_W_3jJKeIKdzR3CqvXeF7j_kiH50VmPlLP0BVnK2xIcJDOA

    1. Beautiful! But if you love horses, don’t put the Derby on your bucket list.

       1. +1 I love horses and absolutely do not support horse racing.

       2. Yeah I live in a state that borders KY and I will never go to the Derby or any of the working horse farms because of the cruelty involved. If anyone knows of an horse sanctuary or something like that I could visit in the KY hill country when this is over, I would love a rec.

          1. I got u: https://www.oldfriendsequine.org/

             1. Thank you!

             2. Old Friends is AWESOME. I went to law school at UK in Lexington. They do good work there.

    2. Thank you so much for posting this!! This is right up my alley. I’m all over horsey Instagram these days and I’m finding it so relaxing.

13. Even before covid, we’d been thinking of leaving NYC for a more family friendly city. My husband’s job is remote so he can work from anywhere. I’ve been thinking of a career transition for a long time and have been fantasizing about leaving my corporate job to be a public school teacher. The question is…to where? Our main criteria are: 1) good public school system, 2) lower cost of living, 3) diversity of cultures & food, and 4) ideally better weather than NYC. Initially we decided on North Carolina (Research Triangle) until I found out about the bug situation (I have very intense phobia over anything that’s creepy crawly). Now we’re thinking of maybe Boston (though it’s not that much cheaper than NYC and definitely not better weather). Any other ideas/suggestions? TIA!

    1. Following.

    2. No advice on location (I live in the Midwest which is cheap but cold) but I would do a lot of research and ideally some student teaching before you try to launch a new career as a teacher. Being a teacher is really hard. I’ve done a lot of one-on-one tutoring and volunteering in schools, which I love. But I could never ever manage a classroom of 20+ students. There’s so much more to teaching than just the actual teaching part.

       1. +1. My husband is a public HS teacher in a well-regarded and well-resourced NYC school, which has a strong union so he gets paid well and we have great benefits. But it has a lot of drawbacks too. He has a PhD in engineering, is a former college professor and has over 20 years of teaching experience and never is treated as a professional. He has to punch a time card. He has frequent, mandatory professional development that has nothing to do with his subject area or his work. Policies and priorities are constantly shifted due to political pressure or research done in contexts that bear no relation to the one he’s working in. He is teaching a subject that he has no training in because another teacher was arrested 3 days before the school year started and he got thrown into it with no time to prepare.

          More practically, there will likely be teacher hiring freezes in a lot of places because local governments are hemorrhaging money due to COVID-19 response, and tax revenues are drying up. The increased expense side is probably more true in NYC than in places without so many cases, but income is down everywhere.

    3. Suburban Maryland would meet that criteria, with the diversity varying by how far away from DC and Baltimore you get.

    4. What do you mean by bug situation? NYC has roaches, so is it something else? GIANT roaches? NC looks awesome in general.

       1. I can tell you from experience we have the GIANT roaches in NYC too. Even our roaches are diverse.

          1. As a fellow NYer this made me LOL

       2. Flying roaches aka palmetto bugs? I have seen those in North Carolina but never in NYC.

          1. I had a Palmetto big fly into my hair in my first NYC apartment. Just depends on how close you live to the river.

    5. Haha, I grew up in the Triangle and never knew there was a “bug situation” there. I had much more of a “bug situation” with the NYC cockroaches!

       1. Haha, yeah, I grew up in Charlotte and am unaware of a “bug situation.” There are, however, ants in my suburban DC kitchen every spring…

    6. Sounds like if you don’t like winter weather, you should end up in the South – all the great Midwestern cities are cold and most of the the west coast cities are expensive. What about Atlanta or something?

       1. All of the South has palmetto bugs, if that’s what she’s refgerring to as the “bug situation.” But having lived in both NYC and Raleigh (and other parts South), I had more a problem with roaches in NYC than NC. Mosquitoes can be bad in the South, though, depending on where you are/your yard. Just get a good exterminator to take care of bugs inside the house (or, in my case, two cats. I don’t see bugs. I’m pretty sure they find them before me and eat them). You can get treatments on lawns for mosquitoes, though the chemicals freak me out a bit and I just deal with it.

          But if you want no bugs+good weather, somewhere in the Southwest is probably your best option.

          1. Southwest = scorpions

             1. I have lived in the SW for 25 years and have seen maybe 4 scorpions in that entire time. They are just not a regular occurrence. What is a regular occurrence is great weather almost all year, low cost of living, great outdoor exercise/sport options, excellent hub to other great places (i.e. short flights or drives), and no bugs!

             2. I have lived in the SW my entire life. We have plenty of bugs haha! Roaches, centipedes, spiders, crickets, the occasional scorpion.

    7. Portland, Oregon! Portland Public Schools aren’t great, but the surrounding neighborhoods have great school systems (Lake Oswego, Beaverton). Weather is perfect. No bugs.

       1. Portland was my first thought. Also Olympia if you want something smaller (though the food situation is not as great). You might also explore Overland Park KS (suburb of Kansas City), though it may not fit your diversity criteria depending on the neighborhood.

          1. +1 to the Kansas City area. My family is living in Overland Park for a year because of husband’s job and I flippin’ love it. I moved here from the east coast with a bad attitude and I’ll be sad when we have to leave this summer. Lack of diversity is indeed a downside, though.

             1. +1 on KC – the weather is pretty moderate (though humid in summer) and the bug situation is minimal. But very little diversity, unfortunately.

       2. Thanks! I did consider Portland briefly but had heard there was very little diversity so never really looked into the city properly. Will take another look.

          1. Oof, yeah, Portland is not very diverse. But we have every type of food you could want! And there is a sort of eager desire to be diverse, so I think that our businesses and institutions (at least in Portland proper) are committed to DEI initiatives. That said, that eagerness can sometimes (often?) also be off-putting and is not anywhere close to a real replacement for true diversity.

    8. No specific advice, and I’m not sure what you’re referring to as the “bug situation” in NC, but in general, the warmer and more humid the climate, the more bugs there are. Maybe someplace dry would have fewer bugs–Phoenix?

       I’ve lived in FL, NC, New Orleans, and NYC. Bugs were just as big of a problem in NYC because of the crowded conditions of a large city. Between FL, New Orleans, and NC, NC had the fewest bugs.

       1. From what I’ve heard & read, there seems to be a lot of roaches, spiders, fire ants, beetles, mosquitos, etc in North Carolina. I’ve lived in NYC for last 10+ years and have yet to encounter a cockroach in my apartment (the subway, on the other hand, is a whole other story…!)

       2. Phoenix seems pretty neat – I was there on business a couple years ago and it seems like there’s lots to do. But the heat was otherworldly. And it was only May!

          I’ll put in a plug for two places I’ve lived: Cincinnati and Indianapolis. Cincinnati has beautiful neighborhoods, rivers/lakes/state parks for recreation, greatly-improved schools, big sports and arts scene, etc. Cons: muggy as balls in the summer and diversity still lags; pretty overt gentrification. Indianapolis has very affordable real-estate, vibrant neighborhoods, easy to get around (with a car) good schools, and is generally family friendly. Cons: not very diverse, little in the way of natural beauty and winters still suck.

          1. I think Indy is diverse! It’s only ~60% white? It’s also one of the most integrated cities in the US – I’ve read that it’s the most integrated city north of the Mason Dixon line. I live nearby and whenever we go there for dinner, I’m always (pleasantly) surprised by how diverse the mix of people in the restaurant is. I have lived in Boston and the Bay Area and you never saw a bunch of Black people and a bunch of white people eating in a nice restaurant together. Never. I don’t think diversity in demographics matters much if the people of different backgrounds are entirely segregated, which is the case in a lot of Northern cities.

    9. Atlanta? Richmond? Charlotte? Also I’ve never heard of a “bug situation” in the Triangle–I have quite a few friends there and all they complain about is the yellow curtain of pollen…

       1. I live in Richmond and the mosquito situation here is intolerable.

    10. No personal experience but I hear Omaha is nice. (no, really!)

        1. I have family in Omaha and like the city but it’s not diverse (even by Midwest standards) and I don’t think the weather is better than NYC – if anything it’s probably colder.

    11. I lived in the Triangle in NC for 7 years in 4 apartments and definitely had a bug problem with palmetto bugs and smaller roaches. Cicadas also came out during my time there, and that freaked me out. They would fall from the trees. My allergies were also significantly worse.

        Currently in Boston area. 1 apartment had a few roaches, easily killed. The cost of living is very high here, too. I have many friends who have lived in Boston and NYC and don’t find it significantly different. No kids so can’t comment on schools.

        My mom and sister are teachers. I could never do it. I’d suggest you substitute teach to get a taste. You should be able to with a college degree. Some districts only require a HS diploma, actually. The pay will be bad (per diem), but it will be a valuable experience.

    12. DC suburbs are…. fine. I don’t particularly enjoy it here, my NYC friends feel the expenses here are even crazier just because you get so much less in return, but it meets your criteria on paper.

        Some parts of South Florida have great public schools and are much cheaper than a lot of metropolitan areas. How do you feel about iguanas?

        Random piece of advice, read the facebook comments on stories posted by local news outlets and think about if that’s where you want to raise children. I grew up in a city in the south that a lot of federal employees are considering relocating to, and I always tell them that. It usually changes their minds.

    13. Realistically how are you going to become a public school teacher? Are you going to go back to school and take on any debt? Are you going to take the necessary tests? Are you going to actually be able to get hired? I understand the desire to change your life and leave the city, but it just doesn’t seem realistic. It seems like a fantasy you’re thinking about given the circumstances. I don’t think suburban school teachers have the perfect life. It’s all trade off.

14. No cry challenge– starting from a comment yesterday, post your favorite resources/podcasts/videos/books/articles for if you need a good cry to destress. Here’s one of my favorite short spoken stories from the Moth: https://themoth.org/stories/the-house-of-mourning

    1. The Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet by Jamie Ford. Amazing book, but right in the middle of it, I had a crying breakdown that lasted HOURS. Not sure what did it, but wow… I could not quit crying.

       Any movie/book/TV show with the loss of a pet. Pass the tissues, I’m wrecked.

       Alabama’s first Christmas CD. This is totally a personal thing, because Mom and I used to go to Alabama concerts all the time and Mom would play that Christmas CD all year long. I can’t listen to it now without missing her – and our concert-going days – terribly. Just thinking about it right now, I’m on the verge of tears.

    2. Music helps me. I often will listen to the soundtrack of Schindler’s List to get a good cry in. Beautiful music with Itzhak Perlman playing the Violin.
       Older but good movie Steel Magnolias. Watching Sally Fields fall apart amongst her closest friends at her daughter’s funeral gets me every time. Sally is really magnificent in that scene and throughout the movie as a whole. The scene lightens up at the end with some well timed humor, so you don’t end up lost in the feelings of grief.

    3. I cried throughout the book Tell Me More but I think a lot of it was because her best friend had died and it included a lot of conversation about that. My best friend died of a very aggressive, very fast cancer almost 2 years ago now and I cannot deal with dead or dying best friend books/shows/etc. I also cried through the last half of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone due to some cancer-y convos.

       A Little Life is the saddest book I’ve ever read.

       The West Wing episode after the pipe bomb is set off at the swim meet made me bawl recently. “The streets of heaven are too crowded with angels tonight.”

       1. I ugly cry at “ran INTO the fire” in that West Wing speech.

    4. The Fall (dir. by Tarsem Singh) always helps me cry when I need to get it out! It’s sad but not tragic.

    5. The movie Longtime Companion about the early days of the AIDS epidemic makes me cry so hard every time. The last scene is heartbreakingly relevant right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrrRtJXkJDw

    6. If you’re a Downton Abbey fan, Season 3 Episode 4 (when Sybil has the baby and then…) is an absolute certainty for me to cry, every single time. Also Season 3 Finale (Matthew meets his son and then…).

    7. I cried so hard after watching the movie Stepmom that my then-husband forbid me from ever watching it again. It could be my particular case, though, since I lost my mom to cancer when she was fairly young.

15. Can we just stop with the term “performative”? Sometimes people genuinely do good things without the intention of making others feel bad. But also I think it raises questions about why it’s perceived to be okay to tear down those who excel and who should really serve as a model for us all. It’s some sort of a weird under achieving bullying and this board is better than that.

    1. Meh. I like the term and sometimes it fits.

       1. +1 and I say this as someone who often catches myself “performing”. Personally, I find that if I’m not doing something for performative reasons I generally don’t broadcast it and if it comes up in conversation, I’m not offended if someone calls me out for being performative. If I’m offended by someone saying I’m doing something performatively, it’s usually because I am being performative. But that’s just me and YMMV

          1. I’m in favor of eliminating or at least greatly reducing use of words whose primary purpose is to pass judgment on others and render smugness upon the user. In fact, isn’t calling people out for being “performative” in some way in and of itself performative behavior?

             1. Maybe we just think of the word differently. I get your point that sometimes the use of the word is to pass judgement but I also find it somewhat freeing. Someone pointing out that I may be “performing” is actually useful for me in that it makes me question why I’m doing the thing in the first place. This is especially true in the parenting context. Recognizing that I am just doing something because it’s what (I think) society expects me to do gives me the freedom to evaluate if I should continue doing it. I think this will vary by person.

    2. I think it fits sometimes as well, although it’s also being misapplied fairly often. The best example I can think of for true performative behavior is public call-outs on Twitter; rather than saying to the original poster, “hey, your post was offensive for ____ reasons,” you see a lot of people opt for the public call-out to demonstrate to all people far and wide how very progressive/woke/enlightened/whatever they are. In contrast, I don’t think someone saying “I’ve been quarantining at home for three weeks and don’t visit my parents” is performative, just factual.

       1. I have the same issue with the term “virtue signalling.” Yes, sometimes people are being sanctimonious. But sometimes, there’s a clear right thing to do, and people who are doing it get labeled as virtue signalling so that others can justify not doing it themselves.

          The concept of “moral envy” is fascinating. This also happens when people in low-paying social service jobs are made fun of as “do-gooders…” by people who make more money in non-social service jobs.

          1. Oh man you hit the nail right on the head

    3. No I disagree. I don’t think it’s fair to say that anyone who is “excelling” at quarantine should be a “model” for anyone else. We’re all doing our best. It’s very bizarre to me that someone would feel the need to “excel” at quarantine. I think the people who think they’re “excelling” are not, in fact, doing well emotionally.

       1. Found the guilty party

          1. No, she’s just secure in herself and her choices. I’m sorry for you that you can’t say the same for yourself.

       2. I don’t think its universally true that all who are “excelling” at quarantine aren’t doing well emotionally but I do think anyone who feels that they need to be put on a pedestal for “excelling” (whatever that even means) or “serve as a role model” for others is dealing with some serious control or anxiety issues. If you can’t deal with others questioning why you are doing certain things, I don’t think the issue is with the person questioning the behavior or an indication that they are “underachieving” as OP suggested. If you truly are engaging in a behavior solely because you think its the right thing to do, why should it matter what other people think about that behavior?

    4. I agree with you OP, but I don’t think it’s a new thing. Ridiculing people for political correctness, calling somebody a social justice warrior, wokeolympics. Yes, there will always be people that take virtue signaling too far, and just be on the lookout to want to tell other people what to do. And on the other side of things, there will always be people who have their reasons for not wanting to change their ways, and they project a small voice of self-doubt onto the outside, accusing others of being too good and therefore somehow bad.
       It’s annoying and it’s a tale as old as time. At least we are periodically inventing new words for it, so linguists get a kick out of it.

    5. I will agree not to say “performative quarantining,” but I will not stop calling out performative parenting when I see it, and sometimes the performance is COVID-19 related.

    6. Nope. This is an open forum that doesn’t even require users to register. It’s an open marketplace of ideas. I won’t agree to be language-policed because you don’t like someone calling you out on your sh*t.

16. For those of us who bill – any tips on how to be productive and accurate when working from home?

    I bill in .25s and block billing is allowed, which is amazing, but with all the distractions of working from home I’m having a hard time keeping track of my time (much harder than when I’m in the office.) What’s working for you? What’s not working? Let’s chat about billable hours from home!

    1. What is “block billing?” I have to bill too, but I’m not in law and haven’t heard that term. Honestly, I’m finding billing REALLY stressful these days. My focus isn’t 100% due to COVID-19/stress and I keep beating myself up for taking little quick mental breaks that everyone who doesn’t bill has encouraged. Stopping and starting the clock (or not doing it) is taking a mental toll.

       1. block billing is where you don’t have to separate bill for each task and put everything in one block of text. So, in my work as a CRE attorney, I can bill several hours in one day on a deal – I might review title work, the survey, edit the purchase and sale agreement, review loan documents; email with partners about the status of certain tasks; have a call with the client to discuss a particular diligence concern. So, I can say that I spent 6.5 hours doing all of the above, rather than 1 hour reviewing title; .5 reviewing a survey, .1 sending an email; .3 on the phone with client, etc.

          1. Also, attorneys cannot typically bill for internal communications (such as email with partner)

             1. What? I have had exactly one client in 8 years of practice who had this policy. Internal communications are generally pretty vital to the matter. If internal communications weren’t allowed to be universally billed, that would result in a lot more partner time being billed on a matter which would result in a much larger bill.

             2. Wow that is definitely not my experience.

       2. basically, when I do a bunch of different tasks for one client I can put them all in the same entry. I learned the term on here actually! So I might bill 5.25 hours on “XXXX analysis, drafting YYY, debugging code for ZZZ” all to the same project.

       3. Ah okay, we’re allowed to do that too, but we don’t use that term. At least it makes it easier than when I used to have to bill in 6 minute increments.

    2. We got a “WFH issues” time code so if I feel like I’ve been extra distracted I can bill to that. (My employer is not punitive). I’m not at 100% with all these other people around, I’m just not. I am getting stuff done though so I feel like if I do it I bill it even if I wasn’t perfectly focused while doing it.

    3. Caveat that my life is easier because I don’t have kids and have a dedicated office space. I got really diligent about using the timers in our billing software. For whatever reason, I find it easier to pause/unpause/switch the timers before switching between matters or doing home stuff. Also, making more of a record – sometimes in the office I would walk into someone’s office to discuss something. Now sometimes I email just so I can double check when I finished a task (and for little tasks, like editing a document, to make sure i account for it when I finalize my time for the day).

    4. I use Toggl, just like when I’m in the office, as I have needed something to easily track time as paper was not cutting it. I haven’t found it much different from using it at the office – just have to make sure to stop the timer when I get up to get the baby up from nap, etc. It’s nice because I can easily note what I’m working on, which makes it easy to input into our time software later.

       I bill in .1, so it’s a little more 1-to-1 for me and I can usually just use the aggregate amount – Toggl does allow you to see each “chunk” of work though so you could do the math yourself.

       Agreed though that billing WFH is the worst. I’m neither efficient nor billing a lot – ugh!

       1. For me, it’s not billing while WFH (I’m normally much more productive at home), but billing during COVID. Ugh.

    5. I have never resented or found billing more challenging than I am right now. I can’t do block billing and have to bill in 0.1 increments. It has certainly been rough. My strategy has been putting in time for e-mails and phone calls as I go and writing down time on a legal pad for anything I’m drafting or reviewing and then inputting that at the end of the day (or every couple of days). It’s not a perfect system, but billing has made this anxiety ridden time so much worse.

    6. I’m in Biglaw, have work to do but no big deadlines, and have been WFH for 5 weeks now. I really struggle with productivity. I use the timers on my computer to keep track of my hours (billed in .1 increments), as I often go between matters.

       I’ve now been trying to adapt more to when I know I’m most productive- it tends to be to bill 3 hours before lunch, 2 hours before dinner (afternoons are super unproductive / distracting for me), and 2 hours post-dinner, with the goal of hitting 7 client hours a day. But I’ve also been trying to be more forgiving with myself, knowing that I’m just not as productive at home as I am at the office.

    7. You simply have to be ruthless about making a note on (i) your “all-day hour pad” or (ii) your timers or (iii) your excel spreadsheet, every single time you task change. Close your browsers so you don’t surf the web. Pomodoro technique. Give yourself permission to have a “reward” half hour every few hours. And re block billing–just because you’re on the same client, STILL write down if you change task from [verb] to [verb]. You got this!

    8. I review legal bills and we strongly discourage block billing. Having been on both sides, I think the most challenging thing is finding the right amount of description. I send back bills where the entries are so vague I can’t figure out what you’re doing and especially why you’re doing it. However, and this is a big however, more words are not always better. No matter how many words you use to describe a task, if all you did was glance at a piece of paper, I can tell. Calling it “analyzing” doesn’t make it different from just reviewing it. I see this more with paralegal time than I do with attorney time.

       I didn’t answer your question directly – this was just kind of my PSA with a pet peeve thrown in. My advice for billing is to write down a task or make an entry in your billing system before you start the task, and make sure you fill it in as you complete the task. Update it if you have chopped the task up into parts, as many times as you need to. If you wait until the end of the day, you’re screwed.

       1. Hey I have a question for you if you don’t mind. What do you think of billing entries capturing multiple back and forth emails in one entry? I haven’t gotten push back yet, but said push back can be VERY delayed so I never know if it is coming. Such as “multiple email correspondences with opposing counsel and mediator regarding description of matter, parameters of mediation, and availability for same”? I might bill .4 for that instead of .1 for each separate email.

          1. Good question. I get really annoyed when I see a .1 entry for every single email. I would much rather see one multiple e-mail entry and I don’t consider that block billing. And please use your judgment on the number. If there are six one-line emails among the same people on the same day, on the same subject, maybe an attorney can technically bill six .1 entries for a total of .6. But should he or she? I wouldn’ do it myself.

             I hope it is some comfort that firms and individuals build up trust. If you are a good lawyer and your bills are generally reasonable, you’re going to get the benefit of any doubt.

             1. Thanks! This is helpful! Yes, although I am always trying to maximize my billing to meet firm leadership’s expectations, .1 for multiple one line email seems borderline fraudulent on some degree, so grouping them together allows me to bill it more fairly (and efficiently!)

17. Is this model 12 or maybe 13, do you think?

    1. Yes, she’s a child! Weird to see someone so young modeling adult clothing.

    2. I would say 16 but yeah, weird to have a child modeling a cashmere sweater.

    3. Right? That was the first thing I thought of when I saw this photo.

    4. I think she is 18 or 19, and that is Uniqlo’s target market.

18. I’ve posted before about my college aged daughter missing her boyfriend. At this point she hasn’t seen him in 2+ weeks, and visits back to early March were confined to the 6’+ social distancing we all thought was ok at that time.

    Now she’s going to go live with him and his family for the rest of shelter in place. I’m sad, and I will miss her but I guess this is technically ok. No one has left our house in 2 weeks except for curbside pickup of one takeout order and one hardware store order. I think this means she has essentially quarantined for 14 days. Whatever the case, the boyfriend’s family has accepted the risk of bringing her into their household.

    I am not sure what advice I’m looking for other than what you would do in this situation? They’re a committed couple still in the very, very in-love stage of their relationship, so I understand that not seeing each other for months is a huge big deal.

    1. OK I am going to take this opportunity to describe the nightmare I had last night. I dreamed my 24 year old son (who’s been quarantining with us along with his 4 year old) decided to go to NYC to join a large gathering. In the dream he fought me when I tried to stop him. I woke up to find him on the couch quietly working on a project. I was so relieved!

       To tie this back in with you, it sounds like your level-headed daughter has found a nice guy and is going to give a closer relationship a shot. I’m sure you will miss her! She will miss you too. But her actions sound pretty reasonable and I think it will be okay.

    2. Sounds like she makes thoughtful choices and you that did a great job raising her! You don’t need to do anything here.

    3. How would you feel about her moving in with her boyfriend in ordinary times?

       1. Fine. They basically live together at college. They are in student housing but it’s apartment style. They each have their own room in their suites so they spend the night with each other at one of their places most nights.

          I’m fine with my 20 year old daughter being in a sexual relationship, if that’s what you’re asking. It’s not a religious or moral thing for me at all.

          1. Spending the night together in a dorm is not the same as living together. Do you think she is mature enough to set up an actual household with a partner? I don’t think many college kids are. Most of them can barely handle living in a dorm or in an apartment with roommates.

             1. I lived with a BF in college – in the actually living alone in an apartment together sense. We didn’t get married because we weren’t right for each other as a couple, but I have no regrets about the decision to live together. In fact, I’m glad we did because living together made it clearer that we weren’t meant to get married. The majority of college students live in apartments, whether that’s alone, with a partner or with platonic roommates? I think it’s odd that you think college kids can’t handle that. Living in dorms with all your needs taken care of is really only a thing at the most elite schools like Harvard. At public state schools, everybody lives in apartments and need to manage a household themselves.

             2. She will be staying with his mom and dad and brother in the guest room. They’re not setting up house together.

    4. I started dating my now-husband in college, and I remember that first summer was SO HARD because we lived 100+ miles apart and had no money to see each other. We saw each other once that summer. We basically lived together at college after that (stayed at each other’s apartments every night), until the next summer when I interned across the country. Again, we saw each other once when he flew out for the 4th of July. After college, jobs took us to different states for a year and half until we could get jobs in the same city. I understand how hard it is to be apart from the person you’re very very in love with, and who you will eventually marry, for months on end.

       However, I’m not sure I would be supportive of my college aged kid going to live with their significant other during this time. I know it’s hard to be apart, but there is facetime and phone calls and IM chats and all sorts of other ways to connect. It’s different if they’re living on their own and supporting themselves and decide to live together, but having another set of parents financially support my kid seems like a step too far.

       I know boundaries are tough with adult but dependent children, but I’d be having some very strong conversations about how uncomfortable I am with her setup. I’d probably say “Look, I’m not sure I’m supportive of this but know that you feel strongly. Can you help me understand your thoughts on some of the logistics for how this will work?”
       And then discuss it in practicalities like who will pay for her food? Her clothes? Her utilities? Her phone line? Is she still taking classes online and how will she have a private, quiet space to study? How will she contribute to chores and household maintenance? What about sickness or doctor visits? And of course, what happens when there is conflict – not just with SO but with members of his family?

       I think I’d like her to have answers to those questions (beyond just “we’ll figure it out”) before I could support this arrangement.

    5. I would bake cookies to send with her for his family and tell her that if this is still going on in three/four weeks, it’s your turn to host both of them.

       1. Honestly, this seems like a good idea. OP, you seem conflicted, but I don’t quite understand why. If you’d be fine with this under normal circumstances, can you help me understand what’s different? You will miss her? Totally valid if that’s your hesitation. Honestly, if I had done this in my 20s the hardest part would have been dealing with my future in-laws. Having them back at your house for a few weeks would give your daughter a respite and show that this is a two-way street: he also needs to get to know your family if this is going to work out long-term. Just my two cents. Hope that’s not too harsh.

          1. I guess I’m sad because I don’t know when she will be able to come back. Under ordinary circumstances they’d probably be alternating weekends at each other’s places.

    6. This is the type of dumb thing I would have done in college. Dumb in terms of leaving her own family right now, not social distancing-wise. I’d give anything to be sheltering with my parents right now

       1. Why is it dumb for an adult to choose to live with a committed romantic partner instead of their parents? I’m an only child who is closer than most people to my parents, but after age 18 most people don’t live full-time with their family of origin. Not saying OP isn’t entitled to be a bummed about it (I would too, as a parent) but I think it’s absurd to describe her child as “dumb.”

          1. A college-aged child is not an adult unless she is financially and logistically independent from her parents.

             1. Yeah but not being a full grown adult in terms of financial independence doesn’t mean that this kid’s feelings aren’t real or that this is necessarily a bad idea?

             2. Fair enough, but I still don’t understand why it’s a dumb decision to quarantine with her boyfriend over her parents. She was living with the boyfriend at college and not with her parents, so why should the quarantine setup be any different?

             3. What does being financially independent have to do with anything?

             4. Being financially independent comes with a lot of responsibility and therefore forces a level of maturity that kids whose parents pay for college can’t possibly have. I put myself through college and knew firsthand how difficult it was to support just myself in a student lifestyle, so I had a much more realistic perspective on the risk-benefit calculus of various adult decisions such as moving in with an uncommitted romantic partner or risking pregnancy without a degree, a home, and a job.

                Developmentally, teenagers and people in their early 20s aren’t adults and shouldn’t be expected to take on adult responsibilities. If circumstances beyond their control force them to assume adult responsibilities prematurely, then they should be allowed decision-making privileges commensurate with those responsibilities and with the more adult perspective those responsibilities confer.

          2. Yup anyone over 18 is an adult. When I was in uni, my boyfriend at the time (now DH) and I lived together with our cats in the apartment we paid for. People would ask us if we we’re going ‘home’ for holidays, summers etc as if the home we created together was somehow less valid than the one provided by our parents. Even now as a 20 something professional I’ve had colleagues ask I was going to quarantine with my parents. Hard no.

             1. Me too on that last bit. Nope, home is here, in the flat that I own, with all my books and my yarn and in my space. Going back to a crowded house full of adults would probably be worse than being here by myself, honestly.

       2. Sorry, I meant “dumb” to my past self, I don’t know her or if it’s dumb for her. Reading it now, I realize it looks like I’m calling her dumb, and that’s not nice.
          I didn’t clearly communicate this, but what I meant was it’s exactly what I would have done and looking back I, personally, think I was dumb about that stuff. I went to a competitive arts boarding school (by my choice) and then out of state for college and then settled out of state from my parents, and I wish I had spent less time in serial monogamy in college and more time with family and friends. Now that I’m in my early 30s, while the feelings were very real at the time, my 19 or 20-year-old self did not necessarily understand what it was to be in adult love. Your brain doesn’t even finish forming until you’re 25. Ask my failed first marriage how college romance worked out for me :)

          1. Yep. The appropriate course of action here is for the young lovers to be tragically separated and pine dramatically for one another while living at home with their supportive families. There will be an ecstatic reunion after quarantine is lifted.

19. What cookies should I bake today? I made sugar and a brown sugar-pecan bar cookie the other day and classic chocolate chip two weeks ago. Husband asked for something “different” but doesn’t care what.

    1. lemon bars!

       1. Alternately: http://urbandrivel.blogspot.com/2007/06/best-key-lime-bars-cooks-illustrated.html

          I’ve made these multiple times and they are absolutely DELISH. My roommates and coworkers still talk about them, and its been months since I last made them. I use graham crackers instead of animal crackers, and use regular limes (the original recipe actually suggests using regular limes not key limes).

    2. Oatmeal scotchies? Shortbread? If you have the citrus on hand, Smitten Kitchen’s margarita cookies are sunny-tasting.

    3. I love and swear by these for cookie exchanges – they taste amazing and stay very soft. Otherwise, my son adores the chocolate peanut butter chip recipe on the back of the reeses peanut butter chip package.
       https://smittenkitchen.com/2016/05/confetti-cookies/

    4. https://www.gimmesomeoven.com/chocolate-chip-cookies/

       Made these cookies last weekend. DH was literally shoving them in his mouth whole and claimed they were the best cookies I’d made (may have been COVID isolation-induced excitement over the little things), so if you go back around to the chocolate chip cookie rotation, I recommend. I used dark chocolate and white chocolate chips in mine.

    5. I’ve been wanting to make Ella’s Risbridger’s Paris cookies which are all over my part of insta – she has the recipe on her feed it’s also in her lovely book Midnight Chicken.

    6. I have these chilling in the fridge for after work: https://www.budgetbytes.com/chocolate-gingersnaps/

    7. I’m not OP but if anyone has vegan options for cookies I’m all ears. I’m not vegan but one of my kids is. I have vegan chocolate chips on hand.

       1. The viet vegan is a cookie goddess. Basically anything on her YouTube and website will be excellent. Personally I’m a snickerdoodle fan but ymmv.

       2. These gingerbread cookies are amazing, and very easy (also gluten free):

          https://www.powerhungry.com/2018/12/almond-flour-gingerbread-cookies-vegan-grain-free/

       3. I think you can sub earth balance for butter in most recipes and use an egg substitute like a flax egg.

    8. something citrusy- a lemon or key lime flavor

    9. I love these:
       https://www.cookingclassy.com/salted-caramel-stuffed-chocolate-crinkle-cookies/

20. A friend’s baby shower has to be canceled. I am trying to think of an alternative solution but the invitees are not close with one another but only the mother-to-be, so a zoom baby shower does not seem to be a good fit. Any suggestions?

    1. Just send a gift now. She can choose to do a “meet the baby” or Sprinkle party (i.e. meet the baby and light gifts like diapers, forumala and toys) after things die down/there is a competent vaccine.

    2. I think a zoom where the participants mainly know the expectant mom is ok. They really just want to see the gifts being opened. I’d be comfortable with that as a guest, in fact I’d look forward to it. What a happy occasion in the middle of all this…

    3. Baby showers can be terrible at the best of times. Send a card and gift, maybe send flowers on behalf of you & the guests.

    4. Agreeing with those who just say send a gift. You know your friend best, but opening gifts on zoom while people who don’t know each other well silently watch me would have been my pregnant nightmare.

21. i completely understand that the point of social distancing is to flatten the curve so the healthcare system can handle the number of sick people — not to prevent anyone from getting the virus. are most of the people dying because the healthcare system is so overwhelmed that they are not getting the proper level of care/not able to seek care as soon as they need it bc hospitals are doing everything to keep people at home as long as possible? (regardless of why someone dies, it is still someone’s life and i still think it is tragic, but i am just trying to understand the situation better)

    1. That really depends on location.
       Additionally in the US, there are large portions of the population (myself included) who put off needed care because of the potential financial impacts.

    2. No, a lot of people just die from this virus, especially people over age 60. Hospital systems in my state are not overwhelmed. They publish stats about hospital capacity and we have 75% of ventilators available and 45% of hospital beds available or something like that. But over 5% of confirmed cases have died. Of course in reality it’s a lower percent, because there are lots of mild and even asymptomatic cases that haven’t been able to get tested. And it’s highly age dependent. In people under 40, it’s like 0.2% of confirmed cases that have died, in people over 80, it’s like 20%.

       1. But keep in mind that your example of available hospital beds and ventilators is largely due to the fact that hospitals have been cleared out of every use besides COVID-19, which is not sustainable.

          1. Agree this is not sustainable but my point was that even without hospitals being overwhelmed, lots of people are still dying.

    3. No

    4. Many are dying because we don’t yet know the best way to treat this illness.

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