Frugal Friday’s TPS Report: Rosette Draped Cardigan

Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

Elliott Lauren Rosette Draped CardiganIf you’re a fan of the draped cardigan, I can’t recommend this cardigan enough. I bought it about eight months ago in the “azalea” color (pictured) because it was on deep discount, and promptly fell in love with it — it’s a really high quality cotton (super soft), the seaming around the waist gives it a fitted look of sorts (and it looks more fitted from behind, too), and it washes up ridiculously well. It must have been popular because they added more colors and sizes, and put the price back up to full price — and it’s only now come down.  (I just bought the “ocean,” a bright, happy teal.)  For a casual business day, I’d wear the pinky/coral one with a pair of black bootcut pants or cigarette pants, a black tee, and a dark blue statement necklace. The cardigan was $165, but is now $57 — lots of sizes still available in all three colors. (And if you like the twinset look: the matching tank was $80, now $28.) (Do note: it’s a very lightweight cotton, so it’s not really a winter sweater.) Elliott Lauren Rosette Draped Cardigan

Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail [email protected]


  1. Is it machine washable? TTS?

    • Yes and yes. It may even run a bit big. It says it’s tumble dry low but I like it so much I’ve been letting it air dry.

      • Kat, I love this for weekend’s, but do not think I could wear this to work b/c the manageing partner wants us to look alot more conservative @ work. Fooey!

        I am running out of the door to meet Roberta an early lunch. YAY!!!!!

        The manageing partner was a little miffed that he is NOT goeing to LUNCH with us. I told him that Roberta and I are going shoppeing afterward, and he then just said “hrumph!”

        I think the manageing partner is worried that I am going to run up my clotheing allowance, but I told him that I STILL have to pay 70% of it myself, and my DAD has control of my checkeing account so I can NOT go to wild. FOOEY!

    • I’m loving the look of riding boots with leggings, but I’m 5’2. Will the flatness of the boot make me look even shorter? I found some great ones online at DSW.

      • I think boots when paired with a fitted pant (or legging) elongate the leg. I’d suggest going for a sleek pair (minimal buckles, buttons, etc.) to keep the clean lines.

        • Agree – clean lines and match the boots to the leggings (or same color family) where possible. 2 stark color contrast lines (sweater to leggings, leggings to boots) breaks we short-of-leg ladies up a little too much I think. That said, I also think that if it makes you happy and confident, wear it and rock it ;).

      • I’m 5’2′ as well. Yes, flat boots will make you look shorter, but I’ve decided I don’t care. Down with the tyranny of “Long and Lean”!

        • Yes, Down with it, Down I say!! Up with not caring, and varying shapes of women’s bodies. Sic semper tyrrannis, etc, etc, etc

      • I got a similar question to this on my tumblr that I haven’t answered yet partially because I’ve been staring at every women’s boots I’ve been seeing. I don’t really think flat boots make you look shorter. I mean, other than the fact that I guess technically heels make you look taller. But I think one of the great things about boots is there so *sensible* in the fall and winter if its raining or snowing or slippery or whatever and once you start adding heels, well, I feel like the sensibility quotient goes way down.

        At least, that’s why I always stick with flats or at most big chunky rubber heels when trying on boots.

        • My next favorite new boot trend is wedges. I was up at night thinking about the Loft wedge boots, but earlier in the week they were 40% off and they aren’t anymore.

        • I swear I am going to just polish my actual riding boots and start wearing them! They are for shows only so are in perfect condition. They aren’t this brand, they are a custom pair, but they look like these :

          • Let’s start a trend – I’ll be right there with you! (and then I won’t have to justify why I’m keeping my riding boots when I haven’t had a horse for over 10 years)

      • Look for a boot where the top is cut on an angle, I think that really helps. like this:,dsw12cat1740052,dsw12cat1730006

        Also, recently discovered that Enzo Angiolini boots are cut a bit more generously than most tall boots. I can’t usually fit in the standard 15″ circumference boots as my legs are more like 15 3/4″ around, but I tried on several different pairs of Enzo puts in Nordstrom Rack last year week and had NO problem zipping them up. Wearing them today (yay Cas Friday!) with skinny jeans tucked in and there’s plenty of room. I don’t feel all squeezed in and suffocated.

        • I totally agree – the boot construction makes all the difference. Tapered-ish toes, sloped top and sleek lines with no bulkiness (like buckles, snaps or accordion ankles).

  2. Thank you all for the advice on Healthworks yesterday. I ended up signing up last night and swallowing the (GULP!) $98 price tag. The off peak hours were so limited (12pm-3pm and after 8pm) that it didn’t seem worth it for the $5 savings.

    The gym itself was gorgeous. The showers looked clean. I’m unsure of the parking situation but I imagine there is street parking near by.

    Apparently I have 30 days to change my mind. So we’ll see if I (and my wallet) can take it! I am trying to plan for lots of classes on my calendar, because it looks like the gym is extremely difficult to quit (2 mos notice + $200 fee) and this is one gym that will really hurt to keep paying for if I’m not using.

    • Anon in sf :

      I was a healthworks member for years until I moved. It made me look forward to working out. It’s totally worth it.

    • Anon in Boston :

      I’ve been wavering on the cost, and all this love for Healthworks must be a sign. Hooray for embracing exercise!

    • SoCalAtty :

      Is there anything like Healthworks in the Los Angeles area? Specifically Burbank/Glendale? This sounds great!

    • I love Healthworks. I realized that I’m a bit of a snob / I hate working out and their personalized TVs are pretty much the only way I convince myself to go to the gym. For me, the extra money for a gym I’ll actually go to and use is worth a lot more than a cheap gym that I can’t wait to get out of. Also, the staff at Coolidge is great.

  3. Gorgeous color! Would be amazing with a simple gray dress.

  4. Linked In Question :

    Recently two of my former bosses (from about 9 years ago…but we still keep in touch) endorsed two of my skills on my Linked In profile. I had not requested that they do this – just a nice surprise. What’s the proper response? Thank you email or written note? Endorse their skills on their profile (I have a lot of respect for them and their abilities).? TIA

    • I just had that happen too. I wonder why all of a sudden?

      • Its a pop up now. So it says hey! You used to manage soandso. Can you endorse any of these skills? And it lists all your skills.

      • Same here – a new function of Linked In? I was then asked to endorse skills of a bunch of my contacts….

    • DC Association :

      Same here. i kept getting these emails saying so-and-so endorsed you in X area, so I went to the site to check it out (instead of via iPad or phone…it just isn’t the same). I think it is a new Linkedin feature or something – If you look at someone’s profile, it will ask you if you can endorse the skills they listed.

    • There seems to be (at least among my contacts) a rash of people adding skills and endorsing skills for other people. I assumed some new feature on LinkedIn triggered it, but I’m not sure what.

    • Oh and don’t do either- def dont send a handwritten note. But you could use it as a convo point to get back in touch if you want.

    • A note is necessary, but you can endorse them right back.

      I don’t love the cardi – IMO it has too much going on: color, rosettes, seaming, ruching on the shell…

      • A note is NOT necessary.
        After seeing other responses, I’ll add – I’d gladly endorse the skills of a former subordinate because it’s quick, but might not be up to exchanging messages/getting back in touch.

    • AND another function new to me on LinkedIn, you now see who viewed your profile. Within the last six months I cyberstalked my college ex. I’d be mortified if it said “SA recently viewed your profile”

      Ok, after writing that out, maybe not mortified, but I still don’t like it.

      • Blonde Lawyer :

        You can turn that off. You have to have it enabled to see who viewed your profile. If you turn it off, people won’t see that you viewed them and you can’t see who viewed yours.

        • It won’t give their name, but it will say something like “Legal Professional in New York” viewed your profile, and if you click on it, it will pop up with fifteen or so profiles of “Legal Professional in New York”, one of whom is the one who viewed your profile. It’s usually the person you know among the 14 other strangers.

          • Blonde Lawyer :

            Depends on the setting. That is the medium setting. I think there is an option to have your name shown and see other people’s names too. Then there is the total “ghost” mode option.

      • thats actually not a new feature, its always been there.

  5. SF Bay Associate :

    Bay Area meetup Sunday, November 4 at 1:30 pm at Rosamunde’s sausage in the Mission at 24th, right next to Bart. Vegan sausage available!

    • 2/3 attorney :

      No snark – what is vegan sausage?

      • SF Bay Associate :

        I have no idea but there they are :). I had one at a party recently – it was very tasty, whatever it was.

      • Typically some combination of wheat gluten, soy products, and spices. Tofurkey makes some especially delicious vegan sausages. Not for the gluten intolerant, though!

      • Also, this meetup sounds great, and I’m sad that I’m all the way on the other side of the continent!

      • Left Coaster :

        N. has it right. Remember, this is SF — veggie options about everywhere, even in the beer and sausage places! Huzzah!

        So looking forward to meeting you ladies (and zora, to seeing you again!).

    • Many thanks to Zora and SF Bay Associate for getting this going! I can’t wait!

    • eastbaybanker :

      Out of town for a friend’s 30th. I’ll show up one day!

    • Yay, thanks for posting it, SFBA. I can’t wait!

    • SV in House :

      I’m looking forward to it!

  6. Finding a Passion :

    I’m interested to get the Hive’s take on this quote (link to the whole blog post below to avoid moderation):

    “Passion is not something you follow. It’s something that will follow you as you put in the hard work to become valuable to the world.”

    Basically, this professor advises students not to worry about finding a passion and following it. Instead, he purports that over time as one develops skills and talents, one’s passion for a career grows naturally.

    It’s certainly an interesting twist, and something I would have appreciated hearing as a college freshman. I had no idea what I wanted to do, so instead I picked the few subjects I was reasonably good at with the hope one of them would develop into “the one”. I’d love to how other ‘r e tt es have approached the process of “finding a passion”.

    • Finding a Passion :

      Link to the article, which I came across in a blog post:

    • Cal Newport’s made a career out of this. :-)

      His blog is called Study Hacks.

      His ideas include
      * Be so good that they can’t ignore you
      * Pick one thing to be good at NOW (i.e., if you have multiple interests, pursue them serially)
      * Lots of intentional practice at the edge of your abilities so that practice leads to improvement. He thinks “flow” is NOT what you should be achieving because you should be working where it doesn’t come that easily.

      • I love these.

      • e_pontellier :

        I love this too.

      • LadyEnginerd :

        Yup. I recommended his blog to students when I was a TA. I think he’s spot on in how to succeed as a student in technical fields (which aren’t fun a lot of the time, so if ever you had a “passion” for it, you will hit a point where it is unfun and you question your path).

    • I *love* this. I’ve definitely been worried about not following (or finding) my “passion.” (Although ending up in law school was a choice, not a default. I did realize that reading, writing, and logical analysis are my strong suits.) I’ve always been very skeptical of the concept of the One when in comes to chosing a partner, but I think I bought into the “find your passion” concept, which is just a different version of the One. And he’s completely right — it creates all kinds of anxiety about whether this is your calling or just what you fell into. I never questioned whether Mr. TBK was the One. I knew he was a one. I believe there were probably several guys out there I could have happily married. At this point, I couldn’t imagine my life without him and he’s definitely My One, but that’s only because of our mutual investment in the relationship, including how we’ve each changed through being with the other person. I definitely see how this same principle could apply to a career path. Very useful article — thanks for sharing!

      • 2/3 attorney :

        “I bought into the “find your passion” concept, which is just a different version of the One. And he’s completely right — it creates all kinds of anxiety about whether this is your calling or just what you fell into…”

        Oh, thank you for this. As I’m in the job hunt for after graduation, I feel so much pressure (internal and external) to find the “right” job in the “right” area.

      • I think this is a great analogy.

      • Off topic, but I love your analysis of whether Mr. TBK is “the one”. I feel similarly about not necessarily believing in “the one” but I like the idea of someone becoming “my one”

      • Totally agreed! I find the One True Passion/One True Love concepts totally anxiety producing as well.

      • I love your “the One” analogy! I always resisted that school of thought because it relies so heavily on chance/inevitably leads to second guessing. Instead, I too much prefer the mutual investment method. It’s more romantic to think we were “meant to be”, but really, we’re good together because we work to be good together – and we enjoy the results of that investment in our relationship.

      • phillygirlruns :

        piling on, but i love this analogy.

        as someone who was recruited out of a literature ph.d program into law school, i will wholly endorse the idea of developing passion. i was completely and totally certain (albeit at 22) that my future was in academia, and when the law school approached me to apply, i thought it was some kind of fate. (I WAS 22 OK??) now, 8+ years later, i did well in school and am doing well as an attorney. even though i was placed into a practice group i initially had no interest in at all. i’ve really come to love it. i think i would have loved grad school just as much as law school and done just as well with it, and i’d probably still be perfectly happy now in a very different career/lifestyle if i’d gone that route.

      • Coming up for air to check my favorite blog – just wanted to chime in and say I love your thinking here, too, about career and relationship. :)

    • I think it’s sort of true, but I also think there are certain areas and skills that we’re better suited for than others. So while you shouldn’t necessarily be looking for your One True Passion, you should be looking for something you like enough to be willing to put the work in (and it not being a miserable process).

    • My life path confirms the truth of this. I came to the US as an adult with a family so earning a living was a higher priority than following my passion. I took jobs that were available (at first), transitioned into an area fairly remote from my initial specialty, and became interested in what I did, because I love to learn. Mastery led to enjoyment and still does; as my career developed, I discovered new challenges that keep things interesting. Now, over 10 years later, I can safely say that my “go with the flow” method has worked out very well in terms of compen$ation and personal satisfaction.

    • I might need that quote on the wall of my home office. I’m not feeling passionate about work right now.

    • Diana Barry :

      I agree with this article 100%. I had no “one true passion” during school. I was interested in all subjects. HOWEVER, I was a very good writer, smart and analytical, read fast, love doing research, love history and arcane things, etc., all of which helped me (I think) become a good lawyer in my chosen field (T+E). However, had I followed my interests in other directions, I could have become a doctor, policy research analyst, professional singer, and I’m sure many more things. Sometimes I still feel like I don’t know what to be “when I grow up”, but I am pleased with how I developed my skills/natural talents to be interested in and good at what I do.

      • OOTB?

      • I think what you’re saying it true. My job today is related to what I majored in in college but I’m a field/area that I never even knew existed and my job and my passions have developed over the past 24 years or so. The key to it is finding that thing that you love and are good at and allowing it to develop as you are ready. I feel very lucky to have found my chosen profession at an early age and I’m still passionate about it – for entirely different reasons than when I started! I started out loving the technical, detailed work I was doing back then (like a puzzle) and now I’m loving the part of my job that is about interaction with students. The financial parts of my job are still some of the problem-solving puzzle kind of work.

        My ex-H struggled his whole life to find his passion. He was constantly wanting to change careers because he was miserable. The problem is and was that he is not that kind of a “passion” person and he’s generally miserable in any job and would become disenchanted with his supervisors after a year or two.

    • I agree it’s a useful thing for a young person to hear, particularly when they are frustrated with the effort to master a new skill or get out from being the most junior person on a team. But I also suspect it isn’t a very satisfactory thing to hear if you’re the young person in question – “go find your passion” is much more satisfying – and there are definitely jaded folks who won’t hesitate to advise “yes … go find your passion (and take your bored frustrated self off my hands so I can get in some other more interested participant)”.

      But on your specific question, it only became apparent to me that my profession WAS my vocation after 5 years or so in. I had mastered the mechanical part of the job, was interacting meaningfully with external parties and had a couple of great bosses, and then the lightbulb came on : “hey, I’m getting good at this. And … and … I’m having fun.”

    • Passion is overrated.

  7. Love the color! Great pick, Kat.

    TJ about personal training. I’m a frequent gym goer, and up until now I’ve been making due withspinning classes, conditioning classes, and the cardio machines. However, a recent weight gain makes me think that I need to step it up, and the best way to do that seems to be a personal trainer. Do any of you have experiences with personal trainers that you’d like to share? Do you find them to be more effective than taking classes, or do I just need to step up my self motivation?

    • I have found that I can pay for a class, or for a gym membership or decide to start a program (like Couch to 5K, e.g.) and not follow through. But every time I had a personal trainer, I showed up, worked my butt off and saw results. There is something about paying more, having an appointment, and having someone watch you to make sure you aren’t slacking that works for me. Someday, when I can afford it again, I will absolutely sign back up.

      • Second.

        • viclawstudent :

          Thirded. I got a trainer this summer – not permanently, I just booked a group of sessions – and she showed me how to use the free weights and integrate them in a good routine and it has been really great as a result: I’m confident in what I’m doing, so I do it regularly, and her routines really work. I’d definitely recommend it. It helped with motivation at the start, and then once she’d got me started, I was able to take over and keep doing those routines myself.

          If I had more money, I’d definitely pay for more sessions, too.

    • I’ve never used a personal trainer, but I’ve taken a lot of different kinds of classes and have found a huge variation in the amount of oversight and encouragement instructors give. I’ve had several instructors in bootcamp and toning classes who would notice if you were slacking or struggling and really give you personal motivation. Perhaps you need to try some different classes where the instructor is a little more aggressive in getting you to push yourself.

    • SF Bay Associate :

      I agree with eaopm3. My personal trainer literally changed my life. I explained I have x minutes in the morning, y days in the week. Please make me an optimal workout plan and PS I’ve never regularly gone to the gym before, so don’t make this too confusing. Weight training is the most efficient workout, and among the most effective. He broke it out into “upper body” day and “lower body” day, 30 minute workouts. He saw where I was weakest and focused more on those muscles, as well as the muscles that help my tendonitis from flaring up. He made lots of adjustments to my technique so that I would do each exercise correctly, helpful for safety and effectiveness. He gave me some exercises I could do at home in case I didn’t make it to the gym. I saw him a lot at the beginning, and after about a year, I see him every couple of months for new routines, which prevent me from getting bored and also not working the same muscles over and over – variety is much more effective. It is, without a doubt, the absolute best money I have ever ever spent. And if you have some kind of health condition (like tendonitis), your doctor may be willing to write you a prescription for personal training – mine wrote an Rx for me because she saw personal training as the preventive yin to the physical therapy yang – I was going to need one or the other because of my tendonitis. Prescription –> can buy personal training with pre-tax flex spending dollars :).

    • e_pontellier :

      Along the same lines – how do you find a trainer you like? How many sessions would you recommend starting with?

    • SoCal Gator :

      I have been working with a personal trainer for more than a year now, and it has made a huge change in my appearance — something I could never have achieved working out on my own. I train once a week and then work out on my own another 5 days, mixing cardio, strength training and various gym classes. My trainer has helped me develop a rock solid core and, for the first time in my life, I have sculpted arms. Although it is expensive, it is so worth it for me. The key is getting the right trainer. In years past, I have worked with trainers who have had me do exercises I could easily do on my own. A good trainer has you do things you either cannot or would not do by yourself. He or she also should be able to address and solve problems and issues. — I had pain in my right foot which my trainer figured out was actually due to tight calf muscles and we did exercises to stretch all that out and the pain went away completely. My workout with my trainer is different every single week. He also gives me routines to do on my own. I agree with the person above who said a great trainer can change your life. Mine has.

    • If cost is a significant factor for you, I would recommend this book:, instead of a trainer. I found the trainer I tried to be prohibitively expensive for what I felt I was getting. The Women’s Health book has a bunch of workouts in the back and I’ve also used them as templates and just swapped out certain exercises with other ones from the book that I like better.

    • karenpadi :

      I tried one over the summer. I wasn’t impressed and stop using her. My thoughts:

      1. She wasn’t available in the evenings. I am not a morning person and feel tired all day if I work out before 9am. So I had to take a super long lunch and work late into the evenings.

      2. I had a muscle injury that kept me from being able to walk up hills or run. We spent the first month rolling and stretching it out. I can run again and I’m starting C25k on my own now! Yay!

      3. One goal was to do push-ups and pull-ups. I was seeing her 4 days a week and got so sick of upper body workouts with modified push-ups and pull-ups. I got so tired of always modifying and spending hours on modified exercises. I felt like she was filling time with those exercises.

      4. Another goal was to lose weight. Didn’t happen. I think we were doing too much arm-strength exercises and no cardio.

      5. Another goal was to run a 5k. After the first month, my injury was pretty much cleared up but we still didn’t do any running. She was going to check my form and we were going to do drills. Didn’t happen.

      6. I had “shared” sessions with 2-4 other people where we all did our own workouts but she was coordinating us and socializing with her other clients. I felt ignored and like I wasn’t pushed.

      7. Overall, she was expensive–hundreds of dollars a month. I just didn’t feel like I got any value for my money. So now I’m working out for free in the gym at work.

      Overall, I’m glad I used her for the first month to fix my injury. After that, she wasn’t quite as helpful.

      • viclawstudent :

        I think you have to be willing to push your goals with your trainer sometimes – say to him/her, “This was a goal coming in, and we’ve been working for X number of weeks/months (or whatever), and I’m not seeing any progress on that. Can we focus there?” On the other hand, if they’re not already clarifying those things and checking in with you, might be a sign that you’d be better off with a different trainer.

        Also I think karenpadi’s points kind of address e_pontellier’s question – these are the sorts of things you want to know before you sign up with a trainer. What times are they available at? What type of “focus” do they have, what type of experience, do they have any specialties, etc?

        Shared sessions seems weird to me. Anyone else had that? Was it cheaper as a result?

    • I would say if you haven’t tried a PT before, give it a go. At my current gym I received 3 free sessions when I joined, but the trainer wasn’t really my style – he was the pilates/ old lady instructor type. I didn’t continue with him. I saw another trainer on the floor who focused on lifting heavy weights and both she and her clients looked great, so I booked a few sessions with her and now see her twice a week!

      My advice would be to 1) go with a trainer who looks how you want to look, and 2) has a training style that works for you (is it heavy weights? high intensity interval training? sprints? cardio?). Good luck!

    • I think this varies from gym to gym. I signed up for 25 personal training sessions at a gym I used to belong to, and while I did appreciate that it made sure I got to the gym, I didn’t feel that the training was anything special. I run a lot, so I wanted weight/strength training to balance that out, and I didn’t feel that the trainers (I switched from one who I thought was just lazy, to be honest) ‘gave’ me anything that I couldn’t do by myself.

      I’m glad some people have had better experiences, though. I would consider trying again at a different gym. Good luck!

  8. e_pontellier :

    NYC meet up Wednesday October 17 at 8PM! Looks like He11s kitchen works for everyone – email e.pontellier.r e t t e [at] gmail [dot] com with location suggestions! TIA and I look forward to meeting everyone.

  9. Paging TCFKAG or other savvy shoppers

    I’m looking for a burgundy long cardigan or sweater-jacket. I like the drapiness of Kat’s pick here, but I am looking for something slightly more structured, preferably made of wool or cashmere. The item must be long – the length of Kat’s pick really the mimimum length. I wear misses XL or plus 1X.

    • Not sure this comes in your size, but the color is right:

    • I returned this one from Ann Taylor recently because it was too long, but otherwise I really liked it. It comes in a dark red and is 100% wool. I was looking for a standard cardigan and this is firmly in the “long” camp— so it could work for you.

      • Or this jacket? Dark red, not quite burgundy though.

    • This cashmere one seems great:

  10. Thought I’d share this. You go girl.

    • Ok I posted this the other day, I do not get all the you go girl comments. She is defending sexism by calling out other sexism. Its a good speech, for sure, but its purpose is to defend another sexist a*hole so I just don’t get the omg! my idol comments. the guy she is railing against is a huge d*ck so it is great to see him get put in her place, but with the other stuff I know about her (which granted, is not a ton) I don’t get why all my super liberal and feminist friends are obsessed with this speech.

      • Well, it’s rather unfortunate that the speech was in Parliament in defence of Peter Slipper, who is indeed not a shining light of feminist thought. (Am deeply grateful he resigned on the same day. Ergh. Slimy.) However, the misogynistic rubbish that has been thrown around in Australian politics lately masquerading as actual political critique has been so pervasive that a speech which finally points this out – even in an unfortunate context – is fairly significant.

        Frankly, there’s enough to criticize about Gillard and her party without the opposition consistently making it all about gender. She’s certainly been confronted with a load of rubbish of a sort previous prime ministers haven’t had to deal with, so I think a speech pointing this out is worth highlighting. Above and beyond this speech, though some general improvement in the tone of political discourse in Australia would be most welcome about this time….

      • Cornellian :

        Also noteworthy that all my friends further left than me love this because she doesn’t support gay marriage.

        It is a great speech, though, and she seems so capable of directing and controlling her outrage and anger, which I definitely am not.

        • Given some of last week’s insults, I’d have been throwing things and frothing, so I was very impressed she didn’t lose her cool completely. (Sorry, but making *jokes* about recently deceased parents is really scraping the bottom of the barrel?)

          By the way, do you mean that your further-left friends love this despite the fact that she doesn’t support gay marriage? I had trouble parsing that sentence. I do have a problem with her because of that, although the opposition is a thousand times worse. (And the presence of the Finance Minister is a comfort.)

          Considering both this and the presidential debates in the US, I don’t think we’re living in a golden age of political rhetoric, though!

          • Cornellian :

            Sorry, yes, I meant that I’m surprised they love her despite her lack of support for gay marriage.

            Are you Australian? Can you speak to whether people care about her ancestry/unmarried status?

          • I don’t like her lack of support for gay marriage, but your alternative there is Tony Abbott who, although he has a lesbian sister who supports gay marriage, also does not.

            I’m Australian, and I have to say that people do care about her marital status, to a degree. However, it really isn’t something that the public find confusing, concerning, or ‘bad,’ it is mostly a non-issue (although it does come up when the marriage debate is discussed).

    • This is the first that I’ve heard of it, and I don’t know much of anything about anyone involved, but if this (from the article):

      Abbott [had] demanded that Peter Slipper, the Speaker of the House, step down for allegedly sexually harassing an openly gay male staff member in a series of text messages, one of which apparently compared female genitalia to mussels… Abbott then implied that if Gillard defended Slipper, she would be just as sexist as a gay man who talks sh*t on vaginas.

      is accurate, then, Abbott sound entirely reasonable, and Gillard sounds deranged. Of course a woman can be sexist! What a bizarre concept to think that a woman cannot be. And, yes, men have a right to comment on it, the same way that women do.

      • There’s a fair bit of backstory, too, and I don’t think anyone is saying that defending Slipper was particularly clever. (There were lots of issues of parliamentary procedure involved, which *are* arguable – Slipper’s private behaviour really isn’t. But Abbott has about as much credibility on gender issues as a sack of potatoes, so his argument also comes with a hefty dose of unpleasant hypocrisy. Even if he had/has a point, I think almost everyone following Australian politics last week would have found his (mock) outrage extremely hard to swallow. His track record simply doesn’t allow him much benefit of the doubt when he suddenly rediscovers equal rights.

        (I do think the extent to which Australian political discussion involves slanging matches of the ugliest sort is something that’s hard to explain to outside observers. Put it this way – the events this week have made me nostalgic for Paul Keating, author of the comment about the Aus. Senate as “unrepresentative swill” – at least he was an equal opportunity insulter!)

        • I just feel everyone in this story is sexist. So I’m not “proud” of the speech like everyone else seems to be. just meh

  11. What did y’all think of the debate last night?

    • I was disappointed Ryan didn’t do a better job but I thought Biden came off as a real jerk. Overall, I think it was pretty much a tie.

      • Cornellian :

        I thought Biden came off as a bit unhinged, which he often does. But I think the moderator did a great job at keeping them both in line. Biden had a tendency to interrupt, and Ryan had a tendency to attempt to answer every question first. She did well.

      • h, you’re a terrible person. if you are supporting romney – craven, expedient, casting off and mocking people for feeling “entitled” to shelter and FOOD, for God’s sake — well, you’re awful.

    • What I found most interesting–I watched it on CNN, and they had a focus group of undecided voters giving feedback through the whole debate. For the most part, when Biden was speaking, the feedback was negative. When Ryan was speaking, the feedback was positive. As far as the entire debate, I agree it was to close to pick a winner.
      (Still not as good as the Stewart/O’Rielly debate, however!)

    • Loved. it. I thought it was equal parts passionate and wonky, which really gets my political blood lust going. I had a watch party at my place (complete with bingo cards), and everyone seemed to enjoy it.

      • This is why I love DC. (And why I was a fish out of water when we moved away for a year.) DC is the only place where politics is played like a competitive sport.

      • Yeah, when I moved here from my western state, I was like, “Ahhhh, my people.” And I’ve never left.

    • Diana Barry :

      I was pleased that Paul Ryan seems to have been made over by Romney’s stylists. His jacket actually fit him instead of being 3 sizes too big!

      (Not an endorsement of Ryan, I think he is a grade A DOOSH.)

      • Why is it okay to call the Republican candidates names on this blog?

        • anon in DC :

          Agreed. If that comment was made about a Democrat there would be a sh!tstorm right now.

        • But you called Biden a jerk above?

        • You called Biden a jerk and Cornellian called him unhinged. I guess I sometimes wonder why the more conservative posters on this blog feel they should be able to post whatever they please on here and then not expect push back or disagreeing opinions (because they view themselves as the “minority” though a vocal one) whereas when more liberal commenters express themselves in similar tones, they called out for being insensitive or unfair or whatever.

          If you want to argue politics, argue politics, but at least be fair about how each side gets to express itself.

          • nailed it

          • Okay, that’s a good point. I guess there are two reasons it was different to me: (1) I hate the word doosh terribly. I think it is sexist and horrible. (2) I was commenting at least a little bit about substance—his behavior—whereas the doosh comment just seemed like a stand-alone insult without any reason. If she had disagreed about his policies, more power to her. That’s sort of my point: I don’t think she was arguing politics.

            But your point is taken.

          • There’s a huge difference between “came off as” and “is” If you thought Ryan came off as a doosh, say that and why if you want (smug, whatever) I actually think you are being unfair if you can’t realize that difference.

            H, I also really hate the word doosh and think its sexist.

            I think Biden had better fact based points, but I did hate his delivery and the laughing and smiling thing. (reminded me of heather from realhousewives of nyc haha)

          • +10.

        • Are you kidding? You called Biden a jerk above and another commenter called him unhinged.

          I’m sorry but the more conservative commenters on this blog have a real complex. They insist that the liberal commenters must be nothing but polite at all times, while not applying the same rules to themselves. I have no problem with political discussions in this forum, though I generally prefer to avoid them, but at least apply the same rules of discourse to everyone.

          • Sorry — my first response had disappeared when I posted this, please ignore.

          • Biden’s grinning and huffing and laughing was a huge turnoff for me. I thought Ryan could have been slightly less scripted…I wanted a little more something out of him, but maybe because I haven’t had my morning caffeine yet I can’t put my finger on it.

            I’m still waiting for someone to define “middle class” and exactly what range of taxpayers we’re talking about lowering/raising taxes on. If my taxes go up, I’m going to be having a hard time paying my student loans again!

        • Sorry, h, but this photo is the actual definition of DOOSH

    • I’m Canadian (born US) so my perspective on this is different, but I personally thought Biden was awesome and hilarious. He countered every bit of garbage Ryan threw out and didn’t back down for a second defending the Obama/Biden record and platform. Yeah, it was over the top, but I think that’s almost what’s needed to make an impression on American TV. And (as a religious person who votes liberal) I loved, loved, loved his response on abortion. Perfect.

      • Cornellian :

        Missed the abortion part, must look it up, as another church(mosque, synagogue, etc)-going Democrat.

        I think one of my favorite moments was when Biden brought up Ryan’s plea for stimulus money.

        • He talked about how he personally accepts his church’s stance that life begins at conception, and he has accepted this in his personal life, but that does not extend to being willing to impose that stance on all other Americans (he specifically said, not imposing that view on devout Christians, Muslims, Jews) or taking away women’s rights to control their own bodies.

          Ryan, in contrast, basically said “I am pro-life because of reason and science (not elaborated upon) and because we thought our baby was cute when we went for an ultrasound.” And that a Romney administration would oppose abortion (no surprise).

          (And yes, agree that Biden was so much more alive and positive than Obama was at the other debate.)

          • I didn’t watch this last night and am also Canadian so have no vote in this election, but wow, based on Marilla’s description I think that’s an awesome response to the abortion debate.

      • Ya I’m also Canadian but am a politics junkie and I thought the debate was great. And I also LOVED Biden’s abortion answer… I thought it was absolutely perfect.

      • No matter what your politics, I thought Biden came off as rude, boorish, and immature. Whether or not you agree or disagree with someone, you need to be respectful and remember basic manners, even when someone has a different point of view. I thought it hurt his position and was incredibly childish with the eye rolling, interrupting, and snickering.

        • Agreed. I’m a member of the blue team, though extremely jaded, and I kept thinking “stop looking so smug! This is not working for us!”

        • Cornellian :

          He did sometimes seem close to reaching across and patting silly little Ryan on the head or something. He could have controlled those urges.

          That said, Ryan tried to speak 3x more than he was supposed to, and it was not only Biden but also Raddatz who were rightfully peeved at him for that.

          • Biden spoke way more than Ryan did, not including his interruptions. I’m not sure what you mean by Ryan tried to speak 3x more.

          • SF Bay Associate :

            I watched it on CNN, which had a minute counter at the bottom for each candidate. Biden spoke about 1 minute and 20 seconds more than Ryan, according to that counter.

        • I hope you felt the same way about Romney last week! For consistency’s sake.

          • Nobody really thinks this. Not liberal news sources, not conservative news sources. Their performances just were not the same, no matter your political views.

          • 2/3 attorney :

            h, people clearly think this. “People” are not only news sources.

          • I think my comments speak for all people’s behavior, no matter the politics. Rude is rude. I did not feel the same way about Romney’s treatment of Obama because it was no where near what Biden’s behavior towards Ryan was. I thought that Romney should not have run over Jim Lehrer to the extent that he did, and yes, I did think that was rude. However, I did feel that he was respectful for the most part in his treatment of the President – I did not see out right laughing, eye rolling, etc. I do not understand why a disagreement in politics have to lead to uncivil behavior.

          • That’s not right. You can appreciate Biden’s approach — even love it — but it’s not the same as Romney’s. Romney didn’t laugh, shake his head, etc. during the debate. So you can love Biden’s behavior, but you can’t say you also have to love Romney’s behavior, which took a totally different tact (regardless of whether you liked it or not).

          • 2/3 attorney :

            I’m saying I didn’t think he took a totally different tact. I’m saying I think they acted the same, and it’s hypocitical to like the behavior from one and hate it from the other. It’s a matter of opinion, please stop presenting it as though it’s a fact.

          • H, I finished the debate last week thinking that Romney had come off as just plain rude and smug. I realize that if you *like* Romney and are pre-disposed to like him, you probably didn’t *see* it like that — but that doesn’t mean that others didn’t see it that was (see 2/3 attorney below). Just as I thought that Biden’s performance was aggressive and perhaps a bit rude at times, but not crossing the line into inappropriate — but I also think that’s his personality and honestly, the reason he’d never be elected president (he’s not polite enough and would drop way to many random f bombs to be president). You of course, thought he crossed the line because YOU are pre-disposed to like Ryan.

            If you don’t understand the psychological aspects of perception about “winning” of these debates then I can’t help you. But yeah — lots of people perceive these things differently than you.

          • I was more bothered that a lot of Romney’s rudeness was toward Jim Lehrer and the rules of the debate.

          • Grammer pet peeve: The word is TACK, not TACT. Tack is the course you set when sailing. To try a different approach is to take a different tack.

            Tact is not short for tactic. And you wouldn’t “take” a different tactic, in any event.

            /end rant

          • Spelling pet peeve: The word is GRAMMAR, not GRAMMER.

            (Sorry, I couldn’t resist, although you are totally correct on tact vs. tack.)

          • so mortified… thank you, Marilla.

          • I certainly understand that people interpret things differently. I think y’all are misunderstanding me: I actually think Biden won the debate. All I’m saying is that their styles were different so it’s entirely possible to like one and not the other and not be accused of inconsistency. That’s it. If you count the number of interruptions alone, you can tell their styles were different. That’s just a fact. You may have liked it; I get that. I thought it was effective. That’s not my point.

        • 2/3 attorney :

          How quickly we forget. Romney did the exact same thing last week. He grinned at his notes, laughed at the President, interrupted, yelled, talked over both the moderator and the President. Either you are ok with this style of debate, or you’re not, but you don’t get to say it is ok for Romney to do it and not ok for Biden.

          • Biden was way worse than Romney. They were not on the same level. And I feel Biden “won” last night. I think Biden was a 9 (out of 10) with that kind of style, and Romney was like a 6.5.

          • Okay — I posted an extensive post agreeing with this that has gotten stuck in the dreaded m word twice. I have no idea why. Short answer, I think the reason that people perceive Biden and Romney’s level of rudeness differently is a matter of perception (i.e. who are you predisposed to like more) rather than who was actually ruder or smugger. I found Romney quite rude and smug during the debate and found his interrupting a huge turn off. I thought Biden was funnier when he did it (I’m a sucker for malarky though). Do I know that’s because of my own predisposition, sure.

            Perception is everything people.

      • I agree! Really illustrates the divide in the Church between social justice side and the pro-life side.

      • karenpadi :

        I agree, I thought Biden was great! I can see I’m in the minority though.

        I’m just glad he was willing to fact check Ryan during the debate.

        BTW, if you read Dan Savage, you know “Doosh” is no longer a sexist insult.

    • Cornellian :

      Saw twenty minutes of it, but thought it was interesting. Biden came off as passionately defending policies and the middle-class, and Ryan as defending Romney/attacking Obama. That said, he did it in a much more tasteful way than Romney did. Romney came off as abusive to me in the first debate. I think they both looked engaged and came off as well-prepped. Ryan looked strikingly young next to Biden, in both a good and bad way. Ryan’s suit fit very well. It seemed like Biden was engaging more on the facts than Ryan, not that that’s necessarily well-advised in a debate to a general audience. Biden’s exuberance and passion really contrasted with Obama’s behavior at the last debate.

      • long term lurker :

        On a shallow looks-only basis, i was fascinated that Biden has less wrinkles in his forehead than Ryan given the age difference. Botox I suppose! I found Ryan’s refusal to state what deductions he’d do away with to be rather shocking. Are you going to cut the mortgage deduction? Because that’s a huge deal for lots of people. The refusal to answer makes me think the answer is yes. And the moderator was awesome.

        • Their plan is to limit the amount of deductions across the board, not limit just some of them. They would never do away with the mortgage interest deduction.

          • long term lurker :

            Yes, but the overall deductions would be less for people that need them, like middle-class homeowners. For a lot of people (especially younger families with just one child who just bought their home and are mostly paying interest), the mortgage deduction is something that really helps them and a BIG chunk of their total deductions. So while they might not “do away” with the mortgage interest deduction, that’s not the same as saying they wouldn’t significantly cut it. The unwillingness to even acknowledge that it could be significantly cut and speak in vague terms stood out to me.

        • As an aside, I find the mortgage deduction fascinating from an economic perspective. The whole idea that people buy “too much house” because of the distortive effects of tax policy is political poison, so a smart candidate would never bring it up. It’s interesting to think that mortgage deductions help some people to buy a larger house while increasing housing costs so that homeownership is not a viable option for others on the renting/owning margin.

          • Cornellian :

            FOR REAL. I love me some undistorted tax policy. If we want to encourage home ownership or child care, let’s do it in an open way, like by subsidizing. None of thsi backroom stuff. Have you read taxprofblog?

          • Didn’t catch your comment until now. I haven’t, but will certainly look into it at your suggestion!

    • Raddatz was great. And I’m glad that she didn’t avoid the abortion issue because she’s a woman–I thought maybe she’d want to stick to foreign policy and the economy as some sort of proof that she’s strictly big-leagues material like any male moderator. Fooey on both the ideas that women need to sublimate their gender and that abortion/contraception aren’t critical national issues right on par with the others.

      • Amen. I thought it was pretty awful that the last debate, ostensibley on domestic issues, didn’t mention women’s health issues at all.

        On the other hand, I was disappointed that Biden didn’t bring up VAWA and throw it in Ryan’s face that Congressional Republicans have been blocking its renewal.

        • Contraception is relevant to every heterosexual American. I wish we didn’t even have to call it a “women’s health issue.” BTW I’m jealous of your viewing party!

          • I absolutely agree. I can’t stand that contraception and/or abortion is dealt as “women’s health” – it’s a societal health issue. This whole thing makes me RAWR in rage.

          • karenpadi :

            Agreed! Who do those guys think pregnant women had sex with?!

      • Ditto. She’s the clear winner of the debate.

      • I thought Raddatz was great with the exception of the abortion question. I thought it was completely inappropriate in the manner she asked it: she didn’t ask about their position (totally game), she asked how their Catholicism informed their respective positions on abortion.

        • Blonde Lawyer :

          I think there is some historical significance behind this question though. I’m not old enough to remember it personally, but I believe when JFK ran, there were concerns that the Vatican would run the country. Several senators, including I believe Ted Kennedy, have been chastised publicly by the church. One Mass. Bishop told the press that the Senator could not receive communion in his diocese until he went to confession for the stances he took politically.

          I think there was a fear that having a Catholic politician would equal having Catholic doctrine and Catholic law dictate our country. This had nothing to do with women’s rights and abortions. This was just from a pure control standpoint. I think it is fair to say hey, you are morman, muslim, jewish, catholic, christian scientist, hindu – whatever – do you think the rest of the country should be legislated to follow your beliefs? Or, in the case of Catholics who have their own political system, how will the orders of the Vatican influence your politics.

          I agree that it sucks to be put on the spot about your personal beliefs. I don’t think any candidate should have to say whether they are a “good” or “bad” Catholic. However, the Church hasn’t defined good and bad by what one does personally. They have defined it by what one espouses publicly. For that reason, I think it is fair to ask how those beliefs will impact their policy.

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      I just hope that everyone caught Biden’s point at the end in response to a question about his faith that he believes freedom of religion means not imposing his catholic beliefs on everyone else in the country. I went from Catholic to Episcopal after getting sick of my church’s entanglement with politics. I felt completely unwelcome there because of my political views. I loved that Biden mentioned Catholic social doctrine. Many candidates that try to appeal to the religious right by being pro-life are not pro-religion in many other aspects. (Ie: they support the death penalty, want to cut many social programs that benefit the most needy, disfavor immigration reform that benefits immigrants and on and on.)

      I live in an area where medical care is dominated by a Catholic chain of hospitals. There was an article in Glamour magazine (that I can not find and would love some google fu to help) that came out YEARS ago, maybe back in the Bush era, about a woman who needed a medically necessary abortion (eptopic pregnancy) in my town and had to travel an hour and a half by ambulance to get to a hospital that would perform it. All the while in agonizing pain.

      We have standards for medicine and hospitals must meet them to be licensed and accredited and to receive federal funding. I personally think that if a hospital is going to be in business as the only trauma center in the area (which luckily for me, it no longer is) it must be capable of performing an emergency medically necessary abortion to save a woman’s life and it also must provide counseling and access to emergency contraception to sexual assault survivors. If those minimum standards impede on the religion, then the religion can get out of the business of health care.

      The point of this rant is I was unimpressed with Biden defending what the Catholic church does NOT have to do. I understand this is necessary to clear up lies. However, I would have much preferred he said what he had previously said – that freedom of religion means access to health care that your employer can’t dictate and your medical providers can’t withhold in an emergency if there are no other options available. It is a minimum standard of care.

      *steps off soap box*

      Also, Biden’s smirking was annoying even though I like the guy. Ryan’s comment about Biden’s son was meant to be a compliment but came out as a low blow jab I think. I heard it as “I’m trying to help veterans like your son that you are casting aside” instead of “I’m trying to help veterans and thanks to your son for serving.”

      Last, I’m not into the whole Ryan Gosling meme but there is a Paul Ryan Gosling hey girl twitter account that people into that thing are finding funny.

      • I’m a Catholic also struggling with the politics of the Church. Our state is voting on a same sex marriage amendment that I vehemently oppose.

        We got a letter from the archbishop yesterday that had me writing a breakup letter to my priest in my head. I realized that it was oxymoronic as I was baking pumpkin bars for a funeral at church while I was thinking of quitting.

        It would make me sad to take my kids out of their Faith Formation because it’s part of their social life, but the injustice of it is keeping me up at night.

        • Cornellian :

          This sounds exactly like my exboyfriend’s problem. He was at church every day some weeks, but the stances on same-sex relationships, the role of women, and abortion made his head hurt. He had a bit of a falling out with the church and hasn’t been back in a year and a half. And they wonder why they can’t keep young people…

          • And meanwhile, the ones who stay and those that end up entering the priesthood tend to be the really conservative flavor of Catholic, which then spirals the Church towards the stuff that pushes any sort of moderating influence away.

            I struggle with that too – I was raised Catholic and love the sense of tradition and ceremony, but do not like the path it’s been taking since the new Pope was elected.

          • Cornellian :

            nona-exactly! It’s scary. I have seriously dated two men who seriously considered entering the priesthood, but couldn’t reconcile themselves with the covering of child abuse, homophobia, role fo women, and resistant to contraception, especially in teh form of condoms, etc.

            Also I wonder if this says something about me…

        • I grew up in a wonderful Catholic church that focused on social justice and service to the community and Jesus’ teachings about serving the poor and caring for one’s neighbors more then one’s self. It was a community and I loved it. Then I got older and went into the “real” world of Catholicism and now I’m not sure if I can be a Catholic because its just so hard to get past a Catholic church that tries to tell me that I can’t love my best friend because she loves her wife.

          So I’m right there with you sisters.

          • Wait, but I think the Catholic church has always been clear that we are supposed to love everyone, including (especially) people who do not believe or practice what the Catholic church believes. I understand switching churches if you disagree with your church’s views, but I think it’s really important not to mischaracterize the position of people you disagree with.

          • No, I don’t think that is always clear:

          • DC Jenny, that’s awful, but I don’t think that really responds to Eleanor’s point. I’m not a Catholic, but I don’t think you should judge a whole religion based on one person’s (really really really) stupid decision. The Catholic church does a ton of good for people—hospitals, soup kitchens, etc. They are one of the most organized volunteer corps in the United States, if not the world. To say that the Catholic church doesn’t believe in service to the community is just not right. Please, disagree with their policies on abortion or gay marriage, but don’t disparage all the work they do.

          • You mean good work like this?

            The above link is what motivated me to leave the Catholic church. I never agreed with everything, but I truly believe it is not a net force for good in the world anymore. You may disagree of course.

          • And just to be clear, I converted to Catholocism as an adult, and I did not make the decision to leave easily or lightly.

          • Yeah, I don’t think that article speaks to what I said, although I feel terrible for the woman at her mother’s funeral. Even though every Catholic, including priests, fails to follow the teachings of the Catholic church perfectly (or even very well sometimes), it doesn’t change the fact that the church teaches we are to love everyone.

          • h. – yes, it’s true that there is a lot of good that has been done and continues to be done by Catholic volunteers, but there is a widening disconnect between the “boots on the ground” people administering the social justice, and the words coming out of the political hierarchy (Vatican and bishops) as to what the focus of the Church is or should be. And the political hierarchy gets the final word on where the money goes. A lot of the social justice thinking came out of Vatican II and the past couple of Popes, and isn’t really the vibe I’m getting from the current guy.

          • Eleanor — they may have not said it explicitly, but its certainly how I feel about what they’ve said. I feel rejected by the church that I grew up in (not the actual church but the church leadership), I feel like the don’t want me.

            I’m sorry, I’d get into more of a discussion about this, but I can’t — its not the time nor place and this is pretty deeply personal so I’m not sure I can really be fair about it.

          • TCFKAG – I agree this isn’t really the time or the place, and (as I’ve said before on here) I really hesitate before getting into these kinds of discussions on this blog, because (i) it’s hard to explain oneself fully and subtly without taking unreasonable time and space, and (ii) it’s really easy to misunderstand one another. These are indeed very personal topics, and I wish you the best.

            nona – The reason I occasionally respond to these more controversial sorts of posts is because I see a great deal of misunderstanding, like about Catholic social teaching and the pope. Catholic social teaching has been around since long before Vatican II, and the current pope has continued his predecessor’s practice of teaching and speaking on the entirety of Catholic doctrine, both social justice and personal practice. I know that often the statements that get published in mainstream media are the ones that are more controversial, but please don’t think that is all he says. I have already devoted too much work time to these responses, so I can’t go find a bunch of examples, but I believe the vatican website has a more complete collection of the pope’s statements and teachings than more mainstream media.

            Argh, sorry for the long responses!

        • Former Catholic, now a nominal Unitarian Universalist here. I hear you all.

          • We have a UU church in my town that a former Catholic friend of mine keeps inviting me to. I’m interested, but my heart is still aching over losing the Faith that I was indoctrined with.

            We have practically no young people in our church.

        • Cornellian :

          SA- I don’t mean to minimize the differences between Catholicism and other religions, but have you considered Anglicanism/Episcopalianism? I assume you’re in the US/UK/anglo world. Quite a few of my Catholic friends felt those churches were a better fit for them. Also, I’m a member of the Society of Friends but grew up in the US Presbyterian church, and post 2010 the Presbyterian church has an amended Heidelberg catechism and in the US allows for ordination of gays and lesbians. Also pro-choice except late term abortions.

          • long term lurker :

            I was raised Catholic and now go to an Episcopalian church. For me the big part of church was the traditions and rituals and I find them similar enough.

        • This is part of why my husband and I have left the Catholic Church and are not raising our children in it (to the horror of my MIL and my grandmother.) We felt very torn for a while because we were both raised in the church and it has a very huge cultural significance beyond religion (coming from large Hispanic families), but we just could not reconcile our beliefs with that of the church. It has caused a lot of friction, particularly with my MIL, but we have do do what we feel is right for our children and ourselves….

          • We have decided to stay, for now. We found a liberal parish and we like it. But sometimes it can be tough.

      • Full disclosure- I represent a large Catholic hospital system and am Catholic. Many of my facilities are in rural areas. All of my facilities are non-profit and provide an unbelievable amount of uncompensated care. All have emergency facilities. While all emergency rooms must provide a certain level of care to all who come to their doors, there is no federal regulation that any provider has to perform surgeries it deems immoral or in opposition to its mission. A provider who chooses not to provide x, y, or z procedure may do so based on ethics, religion, finanical concerns, an inability to recruit a specific type of physician, or lack of equipment (within certain regulatory considerations). A hospital with an ER has a responsibility to triage a patient in an emergent condition or in active labor, but they do not need to staff their facility/provide equipment to support a procedure against their religious philosophies. *It also may be that the facility does not have a skilled physician on staff to perform such procedures.

        It really isn’t a question of federal funding when you see that funding in comparison to the amount of uncompensated care delivered by most religious non-profit hospitals. In order to maintain a non-profit designation, my clients must donate a certain percentage to community benefit issues. In most cases, I think you will find that religious non-profits find a way to support FQHCs and other care delivery models that offer a different range of services. Additionally, a Catholic hospital’s service offerings depend upon that particular diocese/or the founding congregation of a hospital (2 of my hospitals would be able to provide this service, 7 would not).

        Stepping off my soapbox- public perception of non-profit hospitals and the actuality of delivering quality healthcare by non-profits is an issue very dear to me.

        • karenpadi :

          When women die, nearly die, or are put through more pain than necessary because of “religious beliefs” in a hospital where neither the doctor or the patient are that religion and the hospital accepts Medicare, Medicaid, payments from the government, and relies on tax exemptions, I can’t accept that.

          An abortion is a D&C or a D&E, both procedures are used by Catholic hospitals to treat miscarriages to prevent infection after the fetus is dead. So Catholic hospitals do know how to perform those procedures.

          I am lucky enough to live in an area of the country where I have the option to opt out of going to a Catholic hospital. I ask each of my health care providers before setting up an appointment if they follow the Catholic Healthcare Directives. I refuse to die or put my health in jeopardy because of a male Bishop’s “conscience”.

        • Your explanation of why such actions are OK (doing good work justifies failure to provide proper care to all women) is a weak defense.

        • Blonde Lawyer :

          I appreciate your reply. Unfortunately, the hospital I refer to defunded the free pediatric care clinic because their doctors would counsel teenagers on contraception and prescribe birth control. That was actually the catalyst behind my conversion.

          I mean this non-sarcastically – I give you a ton of credit for what you do. It is an unpopular stance to fight for and must be an incredibly hard job. Even if you agree with Catholic teachings, it must get old after awhile constantly being vilified and constantly having to be on the defensive. I’m guessing you work with some tough to please people and you must have a pretty challenging job.

    • Shockingly, my left-leaning friends thought that Biden won and schooled Ryan and my right-leaning friends thought that Biden was boorish/rude/annoying and that Ryan won. I liked the wonky-ness of it.

      • Cornellian :

        I think both sides “won” in that Biden looked passionate and alive (unlike Obama did), and in that Ryan seemed at least arguably mainstream and not too tea party out there (which I think is a concern for center right voters). I’m curious to see if the views of the debate will split along gender lines (beyond the obvious more women vote Obama thing).

      • For this reason, I don’t believe anybody saying who wonunless the person is truly undecided or actually says the candidate from his/her non-preferred party won.

        • Alanna of Trebond :

          I think that’s why it was so clear in the first debate who won–even Democrats felt that Romney had won. For the record, I didn’t really watch the debate last night, am probably voting for Obama, thought Romney won the first debate.

    • lucy stone thinks this is a bunch of stuff :

      I absolutely loved the “a bunch of stuff” comment and then Ryan responding that “Oh, it’s Irish.” I struggle with Ryan acting like he grew up poor. His family is one of the wealthiest families in Janesville.

    • To me the most noteworthy parts of the debate were Biden’s answers on the Benghazi terrorist attack. Biden blamed the administration’s differing stories about the Benghazi attack on the intelligence community even though the intelligence community designated it a terrorist attack and knew there were no protests in Benghazi days before Ambassador Rice told went on the Sunday talk shows and Obama went on Letterman and said the attack happened because extremists exploited protests of the Youtube video. Also, Biden said “We weren’t told that they wanted more security.” State Department security officials who worked in Libya just testified before Congress that they repeatedly requested additional security and their requests were denied, so Biden’s statement is at best a lame excuse abdicating responsibility for failing to provide adequate security (the whitehouse itself was not told of security requests although the State Department was).

      • Cornellian :

        I agree. I’m voting Obama barring some bizarre turn of events in the next month, but I do agree with this. I don’t think it was personally Obama or Biden dropping the ball, but some political post in the administration appears to have. Maybe it wouldn’t have mattered if they got more security, but Ryan was justifeid in going after this. That said, his budget DID slash the 300 million in embassy security that Biden alleged, so I’m not sure they would have done any better.

  12. Today I am realizing how little I know about having a “real” job, and I was hoping I could get some advice from the hive.

    I got my job offer from a regional firm a couple days ago. The salary is more than I expected, but from what I can tell is smack dab in the middle of the national average for the position. I expected it to be less since I live in a fairly low cost of living area. The benefits are good, and the vacation time is insane (3 weeks your first year, plus 2 weeks comp time, plus 8 holidays, plus 5 sick days). It is common at CPA firms to pay people a bonus when they become a CPA. Typically entry level folks are hired and have two years to complete the exam. In the offer letter, it says nothing about a bonus upon completion.

    My question for the hive is this: should I ask about getting a bonus upon becoming a CPA? Should I approach it as a question or as a negotiation? How do I word it? I feel like there is all this pressure on me to negotiate, etc, but I am honestly really pleased with the offer.

    Thoughts? Advice?

    • Just negotiate nicely. Seem positive overall but bring up that point and have a nice but firm conversation about why you think it should be added (if it isn’t). You can make clear you’d accept on the spot if they add it while not foreclosing accepting w/o it.

      • Yes, this. You can even phrase it as “it is my understanding that it’s customary in the field to [blah blah blah]; is there a way we can make that a part of these terms?”. Part of the pressure to negotiate is that wherever you start is where you’re stuck, with comparatively minimal bumps up, so start as high as you can.

    • SF Bay Associate :

      Yes, you should ask. I have no experience in the CPA area, so I’ll defer to others, but one of the reasons women make less money than men, even in the same job, is because men often negotiate their starting salary and benefits up from the initial offer, and women often don’t. Over a lifetime of earnings, it’s a big difference. I haven’t read the book yet but see Nice Girls Finish Rich, which has been recommended here.

    • Just ask what the company’s policy is on CPA exams, don’t make it about your offer. If you’re inclined to accept the offer, say I’m very pleased with this offer, I just have a couple of questions.

    • I’d ask what the policy is and negotiate some terms into your offer letter. Generally, yes there is a salary increase upon completion of a professional certification/license. If not, take the job and look for another place once you get your license (if you’re meh or unhappy at the new firm).

    • You should negotiate. A year from now when you find out other new hires that came on board with you got a bonus upon their CPA worked into the agreement, and you didn’t, you’ll kick yourself.

      Just be polite, present facts. I was REALLY nervous the first time I did salary negotiations, but I ended up getting them to pay me $10k more per year, increase my annual bonus by 5% and double the proposed signing bonus. No fighting, no nonsense. Just asked. Actually, I believe I asked for a 10% increase in bonus potential, but that was so I had room to negotiate.

      If you are worried about losing the opportunity– as long as you are polite, the worst they will say is that they can’t budge on the number. Typically, at large companies, the hiring manager isn’t even part of the conversation. During my negotiation, I actually called up the hiring manager (who was recruiting me from another firm) and told him I was excited about the opportunity but needed to make some progress on the salary. He called up HR and made sure I got what I wanted.

    • All big 4 have policies around CPA exam – paying for it and study time/materials and most also offer bonuses for passing. So it is a normal question to ask. I would just ask what your CPA policy is. They may not offer a bonus, but if they let you study at work and pay for your materials, which are pricey, that’s a bonus in itself, so I wouldn’t say no if they don’t offer one.

  13. phillygirlruns :

    thanks to everyone who weighed in on my buenos aires question, and to those who have weighed in on prior threads – just booked my trip and i am incredibly excited.

  14. Maintaining patent leather shoes :

    Mine always get scuffed up – especially where they bump up against each other. Is there anything to do to repair the damage or prevent it? Are cheaper (thinner material maybe) shoes more susceptible to this? I’m sick of replacing every 6 months…

    • Lady Harriet :

      For minor scuffs, I’ve had good luck swabbing the area with nail polish remover to make the scuff go away. I’ve also heard that rubbing alcohol can work too. Obviously, you might want to test this on a less visible part of the shoe, in case it causes some sort of adverse reaction.

    • If you’re talking black marks on the patent, not actually damage to the material, then we always used to clean mine with butane (like you buy to refill cigarette lighters). It doesn’t take much, but it does get rid of the marks.

    • Nail polish remover works great in a pinch. Also, I took my patent leather pumps in to be resoled & they came out all shiny and pretty and new-looking. I think a cobbler might have a way to “buff” them for you.

    • If you mean that they get marks on the surface of the patent, but the patent isn’t torn, missing or damaged through the surface, then Lady H is correct. Windex also works well.

    • I’ve heard that using vaseline to buff patent leather works, but I’ve never tried it.

    • Last time I bought shoes, the clerk used hand sanitizer to remove a couple of marks.

  15. Didn’t get a chance to weigh in on yesterday’s thread on gray hair, but I have a related question. How does one know when it’s time to give up on dyeing? Or at least, give up on dyeing to match a dark color? I’m not even to the point of dyeing my hair yet (mid-30s with just a few silver threads here and there) but I recently had a meeting with a woman who clearly had kept her dark hair too long. It just made her face look older and made her look like she was trying too hard (I’d guess she was late 50s). My hair is a very dark brown and I’m not sure how dark-haired ladies age gracefully. I also know it can be hard to tell when it’s time since your face changes so gradually in the mirror that you might not notice. Also, is it best to go straight to gray, or is it better to go to lighter brown shades for awhile? Not the most pressing or interesting question in the world, but just wondering if anyone has any thoughts. (Fwiw, I can’t use my mother as a guide. She dyed her own hair and frankly didn’t do a great job. She had this odd brassy reddish color for years that really didn’t suit her coloring. She let it go gray when she was in her late 40s and that color is lovely on her.)

    • I think a good hairdresser can help with this. My mom has gone from dark in her younger years to dark blonde now and it’s gorgeous. I know she didn’t do it on her own.

    • I’ve wondered this before too.

    • For those of us with a lot of contrast between hair and skin, it usually looks best to adjust the color after, say, age 40. in my family, we have very dark brown hair and very pale skin. When I get together with my cousins, it’s easy to tell who is still using the same color-from-a-box that she used 15 years ago and who goes to a salon for color. (But we come by it honestly — our septuagenarian aunties are still buying hair dye that I swear must be labeled “Irish Red” or “Irish Black.”) And I agree that the changes in the mirror are so gradual that it’s hard to adjust the color yourself. The other reason I am willing to pay for a salon is that you get some different tones in your hair, which looks more natural. But it’s expensive. I have to shop at Aldi’s to make up for the bill at the salon every six weeks.

      • Research, Not Law :

        Another Irish family here, and I agree. I have observed carefully and older skin requires a lighter color, even when the natural color was originally dark. Auburn or black at 40 should become honey by 50 and straw by 60.

    • No answer for you but for those who watch the Kartrashians, I do notice the Kris Jenner still has the dark hair and I don’t think it really suits her…but maybe it’s the fact (as her daughters point out) that she is still trying to rock clothes and shoes that are much too young for her!

    • Lady Harriet :

      I have a very well-groomed aunt in her early sixties who originally had dark brown hair and now dyes it a much lighter brown. She looks gorgeous, and the color is natural enough that she doesn’t look like she’s trying too hard. It helps that the rest of her appearance is always very well put together too. My mom, who has a much more bohemian style, is a natural redhead who also dyes her hair. She’s a year younger than my aunt, and a couple years ago switched from dying her hair its original red and went to a more light red/strawberry blonde.

    • I’ve decided to become older and blonder. I’m currently covering up – well, not exactly covering up, but blending in – my grays with lighter highlights in the same area. I know exactly what you mean about the dark hair on older faces – it can be very aging. I also think gray roots with very dark hair are quite unattractive (and unavoidable if you’re going for the full dye job) so I’m sticking with very subtle, very fine highlights, not many shades different than my natural color.

    • I was worried about this. I’m 37 and about 10-15% grey. My hair is naturally medium brown, and I dye it as close to my natural color as possible at home. The last couple of times I dyed I went with one of the light brown shades instead. The reasoning was 2. First, the color I use won’t lighten my hear so my darker hairs stay the same color, but my greys (actually, they’re platinum) are dyed the lighter color so they look like highlights. Also, my color will be softer against my skin, and I’m hoping it will be easier to stop dying someday when I get to that point. I’m sure in a few years I’ll switch to a dark blonde color as part of that process.

      My mom finally stopped dying her hair in her mid to late 50s and I thought she looked younger with her platinum hair than she did with her brown hair. When I mentioned that to her older sister (my aunt) who still dyes her hair my aunt wasn’t too pleased with me, I think.

      Some days I wish I had the confidence to just stop dying my hair & let it grey naturally, but I’m told frequently that I look younger than I am, and I worry that greying will age me. I’m just too vain, I guess.

    • I have very dark, almost black hair and pale white skin. I to to a salon and have low lights done every six weeks (YMMV, but my hair grows like a weed). The low lights lessen the amount of gray, and I don’t get that all over too much dark color look or trying too hard look. To me, having a little gray looks the best, it’s just enough gray to make it seem that I don’t need to die my hair yet.

    • Thanks for all these suggestions. Luckily, I don’t think I need them yet but I do want to avoid that harsh look that fair skin/dark haired women can get when they’ve aged past when the Snow White thing still works!

  16. Why can’t my office be more fun? We have mandatory, Celebrate September Success happy hour this afternoon and I don’t feel like wearing a black suit and sitting next to everyone in a black suit. I put on a drapey cowl neck sweater (it’s 35 degrees) but now I’m regretting it. I’m working from home this morning so I could still change, but I just don’t want to!

    “I’m being recognized so sit far away from big boss and hope he doesn’t notice awesome sweater” isn’t an option like it was when we did something similar Tuesday night and I wore a LOFT denim blazer. Oops.

  17. I think I hate everything about this sweater, especially the rosette. Just saying.

    • Hahaha. I will just say that this sweater is the opposite the image I am trying to project at work.

    • Does anyone remember the designer from Project Runway from several seasons ago who stuck rosettes on everything? She would have LOVED this.

    • I don’t like all of the knit rosettes on things lately. Especially the giant ones. They look like those flowers clowns wear and squirt water at people with.

      • Hmmmm, now you’re selling me on this cardigan. Must install water squirting rosettes on all of my clothes now…

        • Tired Squared :

          That would make you the best Godzilla ever! Rawr… knock down buildings … squirt water at them…

  18. junior associate :

    I am agonizing over how to give notice at my current job, although no offer in hand yet…..
    While I will, of course, wait for offer in hand – suggestions on how to I go about giving notice at a small firm (2-3 people)? Does the two weeks begin to run on the day of giving notice, or the following business day?

    • I’ve always handed them something in writing that gives my last day. Two weeks begins the day I notify them.

      Note: Two weeks is the customary thing. Depending on how the dates work, you could give longer notice. For example, you accept firm offer today for a job starting on November 1. You could give 2 week notice today and be done on October 25. You could give notice today that October 31 would be your last day. Or you could wait until October 18 and give two weeks notice. Giving longer notice is dangerous in my field (IT) because it’s extremely common to walk people out the door when they give notice.

      1. Begin documenting things now.

      2. Have a plan/list of what you do and what you’re working on. Work hard to remember things that may only be done once a month/quarter/year since those won’t be covered during your 2 week notice.

    • Are you going to another legal job? There will likely be a waiting period between when you get your offer and when you clear your conflicts check. Do Not give notice before your new employer gives your written confirmation that you are clear of conflicts. In the meantime, check your employee handbook or employment if you have one to figure out if you have to give more than 2 weeks. Chances are you don’t, but you want to know. When the time comes, tell your supervising attorney first and they can direct you from there. They may want a short resignation letter for their file, you can just give effective date of resignation and estimated departure date.

    • You should make sure that you have everything in order before you give your notice. Some people don’t want to keep people around for 2 weeks — they want them out right away.

  19. Could someone please direct me to an earlier post talking about the most comfortable walking shoes for commuting? Or just let me know what you recommend? I walk 40 minutes every day back and forth to work and I need some very comfortable walking shoes. I’m 6 months pregnant too, and find that I can’t get away with cheapo flats anymore. Thanks!

    • Gurl, you’re pregnant and working 40 min each way? Wear sneakers. With squishy and firm support for your body. Leave your work shoes at work.

      • Agree. Commuter flats are for 15 minute walks. 40 minutes, pregnant or not, you should always be in sneakers!

    • 40 minutes total (20 minutes each way). :) It’s a really easy walk.

      • Well, I’m not pregnant and I walk about 20 min each in addition to running on and off various trains and I still don’t know how you’re doing this without sneakers. WEAR SNEAKERS. They come in all kinds of fanciful colors.

        But, if you’re still bent on shoes, I like Hush Puppies and Baretraps for shoes and Skechers for sneaker/shoe hybrids for commuting and walking around all day at work.

        • No Problem :

          Yes, Skechers are great. I have a pair that have fixed laces that stretch so you can just slip them on, so no need to tie laces (great for pregnancy because you don’t have to bend over to get your shoes on). Two of my coworkers have the same shoes! I wear them as both commuting shoes and general weekend/evening shoes. But I agree with others that regular sneakers are good idea too. Be sure that you’re giving your feet enough support, especially given the changes your feet go through during pregnancy. Consider replacing the standard sneaker insoles with off-the-shelf orthotics to add more arch support and stability.

        • Word of caution – I found my Skechers bike-style slip-ons rolled my feet alot. I have high arches and the “last” (I think it’s called) didn’t work at all with my feet.

      • I just got a pair of Clark’s flats that are sort of like a flat/sneaker hybrid (maybe they’re called skimmers? they have sneakery rubber soles and are made of out a sneakery kind of mesh with leather trim — all black — but are shaped like a flat). I absolutely love them. I wear them with jeans on the weekend sometimes, they’re great for walking, and they look okay for after work drinks or other events.

    • DC Association :

      Dansko clogs are great for this. Worn by so many professionals who are on their feet all day (docs, nurses, chefs…). I wore them all the time when I was PG.

      (and depending on your office, you could probably even keep them on during the day (esp with pants of the same color)

      • Turtle Wexler :

        Be careful of Dansko clogs if you have weak ankles and/or are experiencing pregnancy-related joint looseness or stretching. I love my Dansko clogs but I have turned my ankle more than once. I think it’s because they have a substantial platform and are pretty loose on the foot. Maybe look for the ones with straps?

    • I just ordered these clogs:

      The reviews say they’re very comfortable. They will arrive today and I’ll let you know tomorrow if the hype is true.

    • Research, Not Law :

      Jenn by Trotters are seriously the most comfortable shoes in the world, more so than sneakers: They are long walk by pregnant feet approved. They aren’t the s*xiest shoes, but they do look like boots when sticking out of trousers.

    • I had the exact same commute (20 minutes walking each way) and loved my cole haan flats (I don’t remember the exact name) with the nike air padding. They were black patent and professional enough to wear during the day at work too. They saved me during the last few months of my pregnancy. I still wear them everyday to walk to work two years later. They’ve held up great (despite some stretching from my swollen preggo feet) and are super comfortable and stylish.

  20. Paging Cornellian :

    I was thinking more about your question on yesterday’s thread about your landlord issues. That and Bluejay’s story about her electrical shock made me even more concerned about the safety issues of your leak. I think you should call 311 and get armed with some information about how to complain to the DOB or other agencies, then call your landlord and give him a stern talking-to. Don’t let him get off the phone until you have a solid promise to get a plumber and an electrician in there ASAP.

    Good luck! And keep us posted.

    –Brooklyn, Esq.

    • Cornellian :

      Thanks! I’ve been trolling NYS property law instead of doing work, which is bad news. I think I do want to send him a letter documenting our conversations, but not pull the repair and deduct card. If this does go the way of small claims or something like that, I want to have it documented that I spoke to him. Thankfully I have access to certified mail (and notaries and copy machines and all sorts of things) at work.

      It’s vaguely comical now, but the first time the leak/wiring problem happened, he first asked me why I just told him (um, I guess I don’t inspect my light fixtures for water as a matter of course), and then accused me of pouring water in there to mess with him. Now all I can picture is petite me on a ladder pouring water with a pitcher into a live electrical fixture while giggling maniaclly.

      • oo I think that is a sign of things to come. I’d work on getting a new apartment if possible

      • Brooklyn, Esq. :

        I think I have to agree with cfm here, that is pretty crazy. I would try to leave, too.

      • Cornellian,

        I volunteered for NY housing court for a while and may have some useful information for you. Let me know if you have an email where I can reach you.

        • Cornellian :

          I just created one! it’s the name of this site with a k at gmail dot com. I was surprised it wasn’t taken! IT would be great to hear from you if you have a moment.

  21. Thanks all for the kind words yesterday. unfortunately, the job did fall through. the hr person reached out and said how much they liked me and that she sees me on board in the future. but obviously, I’m crushed.

    • Blonde Lawyer :

      How awful. I have no experience with recruiters but it seems like they somehow failed in their duties to you. I would make their life miserable unless they are your only lifeline to future work or are a bridge you absolutely can’t burn. I’d threaten a suit, demand they make it right, write to the head of the company, etc. I am so angry for you!

      • Brooklyn, Esq. :


      • My first instinct was feeling like I should be able to sue somehow to. I also already sent them a thank you note when I got the offer which I am mad about to. I am going to mull this over for the night weekend, and talk to some of my friends who are lawyers and get their thoughts. I believe they lost the company as a client over this, and the HR hinted that I might be hearing from them sooner rather than later.

        • Keep in mind that you may be “off limits” to the company for a little bit depending on the contract between the recruiter and the company. She may have right to a fee for a certain number of days after presenting the candidate/candidate getting offer, etc. So don’t get too discouraged if the company doesn’t call you first thing Monday morning. So sorry this happened. Wine and cookies.

    • {{Hugs}}

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you!

    • I’m so sorry! I agree with Blonde Lawyer. Raise a big stink & see what they can do for you.

    • I’m very very sorry to hear that. Did she give a reason why? It seems like it wasn’t you but I wonder if the recruiter cost you this job. I hope you get a new job soon (and maybe be wary of this particular company, too).

      • the recruiter def cost me the job. the only reason they rescinded is they wont pay what the recruiter is demanding.

  22. Let's Go NATS! :

    That is all.

    With Natitude,
    DC Association, who was just invited to the game tonight by one of her vendors (therefore cannot concentrate at.all.)

    • SF Bay Associate :

      As my friend in DC said, she’s rooting for a World Series battle between the cities with Absurdly High Cost of Living + High Percentage of Graduate Degrees :). Go Nats.

    • I am so jealous you get to go tonight! I was at the debacle of a game on Wednesday. Go Nats!

    • I’ll be there too! GO NATS!

  23. What to wear to my 30th reunion? It’s in suburban Boston in November. I am staying at the reunion hotel so won’t be outside bit still concerned about dressing right for the season and temp. Any ideas/suggestions welcome.

  24. I’ve been seeing all of these posts with cute little ankle boots lately. You’re all winning me over to the dark side…but if I get a pair, what do I wear them with? With pants, I see that, but could you use them with a skirt?

    Also, where would I find a basic black leather bootie to start? Naturalizer had one but I don’t think it was real leather.

    Thank you!

    • Maybe something like this? They have the wood heel, so a little detail, look like soft leather, and I could wear these at work and just around…

    • I have a couple of pairs of ankle boots and wear them with tights and skirts all the time. I started out just wearing them with jeans but wanted to wear them more than that so started pairing them with skirts and am now sold on the idea. I now wear ankle boots with abandon (except when I have to wear my lawyer costume). For what it’s worth, though, I do think they look better with A-line or more flowy skirts, rather than pencil skirts. That might just be personal preference though.

  25. westward leaning sunglasses – convince me that they are not worth $275 or help me find an affordable version? thank you and happy friday!

    • SoCalAtty :

      I had never seen those before, so now I REALLY can’t convince you that they aren’t worth that because now I want a pair! I’ve been buying maui jims at about the same price forever, but these are just too pretty!

      • LOL. then perhaps you can help convince me that if I spend that much, I won’t lose or break them? they are so pretty!

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