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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Happy Monday! I hope everyone had a great weekend — today I'm liking this unusual linen blazer from Brooks Brothers, which is such a pretty, sherbet-y shade of orange for a madras plaid. This is a great blazer to wear as styled here, with a “column of color” beneath it, whether you do a simple sheath dress or a tone-on-tone top and bottom (or, hey, for those of you who like them for work, a jumpsuit). The blazer is $498, and available in sizes 0-16. Madras Plaid Linen Jacket
Looking for something similar but less expensive? Talbots has a madras plaid in all size ranges, including plus, while these two blazers are both under $70 and have a similar vibe.
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Sales of note for 9.16.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 30% off wear-now styles
- J.Crew Factory – (ends 9/16 PM): 40% off everything + extra 70% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Extra 25% off all tops + markdowns
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
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FlatWhite
After 8 year of marriage, my SO annoys me to the core. I just don’t really even want to speak with this person about the mundane things that come with daily life. We are looking for counseling options but want to hear any anecdotes from the hive- anyone bounce back from this? I am also not attracted to this person anymore. Can you come back to a healthy relationship if at core this person is deeply annoying to you ?
We have three kids and they obviously notice the change in behavior.
Anonymous
If you want to, absolutely! Do the work. Read some John Gottman. Engage in therapy. Work on yourself- what can you be doing to make your life better, outside of fixing your marriage.
CPA Lady
I specifically recommend The Relationship Cure by Gottman if everything he does irritates you. It’s good for all kinds of relationships (friendships, work colleagues, etc.) so even if this relationship doesn’t end up lasting, you might find it useful in other relationships.
anon
I’ve been in a similar situation with an important relationship in my life (although not with SO) I realized that a lot of it had to do with my framing of the person and whatever they said. I was so quick to frame whatever they’re saying in the least charitable light, and I just tried to police what I was thinking whenever I saw myself doing that. I made a conscious choice to look for the good in the person.
AIMS
I think this is a big part of it. I think part of why new relationships are so fun is that we are so generous toward each other. Everything is sweet, funny, meaningful, thoughtful… As we settle into life together, the opposite impulse takes over. But it doesn’t have to be that way. Try reframing how you interpret your partner.
Cat
I suggest you work on it either way — whether you stay married or not, you have 3 children with this man and will need to coordinate / communicate productively with him for the rest of your life.
Cat
Just realized you never said “he” but … advice remains the same.
Ellen
It probably is a he. After all, she has 3 kid’s with him. Besides, only a man can be that annoying that you could have $ex with him enough to have 3 kid’s and now he is so annoying. I know in my case my ex got under my skin and I never even had kid’s with him. Good luck to the OP with counseling. Perhaps she will see him in a better light.
Anon
My husband of almost 20 years annoys the living crap out of me just about every day, but he also makes me laugh, and I love him, and I can’t imagine life without him. If all I had were the annoyance, I don’t know if we could stay together.
Raising little kids is hard work and there is lots to be annoyed about. Also, the times I’m most irritable tend to be times there is something up with me, not necessarily because my husband is being extra annoying. Are you getting enough sleep? Are you eating healthy? Is your job eating your brain? Can you communicate about how you feel to your SO?
Anon
+1 – whenever I find myself getting extra annoyed with my husband, the problem is always me. Not to say he’s not annoying, because he is, but whenever I have problems managing it, it’s always a me issue.
Equestrian attorney
+1 million. My husband definitely is annoying sometimes (cough often). But whether I embrace it or reach complete BEC status really depends on what’s going on with me.
Anon
Could you be annoyed with many other people / things in your life and your husband just feels like a safe place to let that all out? It’s socially unacceptable to be at BEC stage with your kids and it could get you fired with your boss but you know your husband is always there so you channel all those emotions on him?
Try to be mindful for awhile, living in the present and writing down every time something or someone annoys you. See if they are rational things to be annoyed at. Even just admitting what other things are annoying you, to yourself, may take some of the stress off the situation.
Anonymous
Yes it’s possible. Married 11 years, 3 kids. Our marriage has had its ups and downs but it’s currently better than its ever been and I’ve had my fair share of expressly the two sentiments that you have. Game changers for me were reading the 5 Love Languages, learning to recognize marriage as a choice to be or continue to be in a committed partnership where you learn to work together as a unit (rather than as a feeling of “love” whatever you may think that means) and taking ownership of my own shortcomings and working on me. When I expressed the two sentiments you shared, I was unwilling to admit that I had work to do and in my mind, my husband was the problem. I’m not saying that this is the case for you because I don’t know much about your situation other than what you’ve shared, but for me, that was the case.
Housecounsel
I think this jacket looks quite frumpy.
Anonymous
My mom would have rocked this jacket in the 1980s.
Pegasus
Should I keep my wedding dress or donate it? It’s a simple, knee-length, white, fit and flare style dress, but I doubt I would ever wear it again because after two kids I don’t think it will ever fit again. So, I’ve been storing it in my basement, but to what end? What is the reason behind keeping the dress forever? Just to have a physical momento of the wedding?
Anonymous
We can’t decide this for you and honestly it doesn’t matter. If you like having it, keep it. If you don’t, donate it.
anon
I’d be curious to know what others did with their wedding dress. I can’t seem to get rid of mine either and I know for sure I won’t ever wear it again.
Anonymous
I got a short white party dress and intend to wear it again — lifestyle fail on my part for not having fancy summer parties to go to but I am an optimist. May throw myself a 50th party for the autumnal equinox and party down it it. 18 months from now :)
FP
This only works if you baptize babies when they are tiny, but I had my wedding dress made into a baptism gown. It devastated me to pack it up (especially when I couldn’t even attempt to put it on one last time, as I was 6 months pregnant) but I love the fact that my two babies are wearing a christening gown made from my wedding dress.
Ribena (formerly Hermione)
One option is to keep a part of the dress. I have some lace from my grandmother’s wedding dress which I’ll sew into mine when the time comes. (Either as a trim or as a secret inside trim)
Go for it
Love this idea !
Anonymous
I wasn’t that sentimental about my dress. I loved it on that day, but knew I’d never wear it again, so I sold it. I have beautiful photos from the day and I have my memories …. I really didn’t feel like I needed to hang onto the actual dress.
Anon
I’d also like to sell my dress. How did you do it?
Anonymous
I’m feeling like such a scrooge reading all these responses, so glad somebody is with me in wanting to sell. I used a local online site, sort of like Craigslist, but something more reputable in my area. It was a little bit of a pain meeting a few people who wanted to try it on but ended up not buying it, but it only took me 4-5 tries before somebody reached out who had been looking for exactly what I had. She tried it on and loved it and I was very happy knowing the dress from my happy day was going to be used by somebody else who was equally excited about it.
More recently, I’ve started re-selling on Poshmark and I see some wedding dresses on there, but they don’t seem to sell for more than a couple hundred.
Anon
There is probably a consignment store in your area, too. A very good friend of mine and my sister both got their dresses second hand from a local shop.
Edge
I generally get rid of everything, but did end up wearing my mom’s wedding dress for my own wedding so appreciated her keeping it around. And I’m continuing to store it if my daughter wants to wear or repurpose it.
Anon
I kept mine. I’m glad I did because my daughter really wanted to see it not too long ago.
poas
Here’s a child’s perspective: I’m glad my mother kept her dress. I loved looking at my her wedding dress as a child (her’s was also knee length) and hearing the story of how she found it. I think I tried it on too. My mother died young, about 2 years before I met my husband, and her wedding dress had been inadvertently donated by the time we got married. I don’t know that I would have worn it but I would have loved to try it on while I was looking for a dress. Of course, I would have been just fine if she hadn’t kept it but, as you make this decision, keep in mind that it may have sentimental value to your kids too.
Anonymous
I’m so sorry for your loss.
I had the bestest time with my mother’s wedding dress. Not only did she make it herself, but it involved an actual hoop skirt (b/c southern). It was so awesome playing dress-up. Alas, I wasn’t a 105-pound 22 year old when I got married, but my daughters will have a blast at Nana’s house this summer now that they are beanpole tweens.
Rainbow Hair
I played dressup in my mom’s wedding dress too! It was a flowy blue thing, made me feel like a greek goddess (when I was like, 11).
AIMS
A friend of mine found someone online to make it into a quilt for her.
lawsuited
I’d be curious to see the chiffon quilt my wedding dress would make!
emeralds
Yes, I’m planning to re-sell mine but I love this idea if I end up wanting to keep it!
Anon
My parents are borderline hoarders and I tend to over-correct and be a “must purge everything” person, but I kept my wedding dress. I have a daughter and I figured she might want to see it/play with it, even if she doesn’t wear it on her actual wedding day.
Selina Meyer's pear-print shirt
OMG I loved Selina Meyer’s sleeveless pear-print blouse from a recent episode. Like paused my TiVo and started googling. It looked fantastic on her with black pants. We have a similar coloring and it convinced me that maybe I could do green in the summer.
Holy hell, it is like $800 and from Dolce and Gabana. But it is amazing if you have some coin to drop on a sleeveless thing that now looks more like a sleeveless tee than a true blouse. It is gorgeous!
AFT
Selina is my style icon. I wish I could dress like she did, but every time I look up what she was wearing on a given episode, it’s in the 4 figures. :(
Anon
+1 Everything she wears is gorgeous and very out of my price range.
lsw
This is me after every episode of How to Get Away with Murder (Viola Davis’ wardrobe, if that wasn’t clear!).
Dating is hard
How do you decide what is a deal-breaker in a potential date? A friend introduced me to a guy, thinking that we may hit it off. He seemed like a nice guy and like we had stuff in common. But I don’t find him attractive, because of a superficial appearance thing that is easily changed (hair style, if it matters at all). On one hand, it seems stupid to write a guy off because of that. If it wasn’t for this one thing, I would be interested in getting to know him better. On the other, I’m not attracted to him and that seems important. I’m pretty sure he is going to be at an event later this week, and I’m trying to decide if I’m just being too picky.
Anonymous
This will be a self-solving problem in a few years as he starts to bald. And maybe it all goes away or he spends decades with an awkward comb-over. Check him out — if this is the only issue, remember the words of Samantha Jones: all cats look the same in the dark :)
AIMS
This really made me laugh. I think a bad haircut is solvable but if you’re generally not attracted to him that’s a deal breaker.
Brokentoe
Actually, that’s originally a quote from Benjamin Franklin ;)
Anonymous
Yeah you are. Really? How bad is his hair? Like, you wanna date people or not. Give him a try, stop being so shallow.
Cat
This is like refusing to tour a house because you can’t overlook a paint color.
Anon
Exactly.
Dating is hard
But is it really? One of my friends said the same thing, basically that if I liked him and we started dating I could always ask him to change his hair style after a few months of dating. But if I started dating a guy and he said after a few months that he didn’t find my hairstyle attractive and asked me to change it, I would be really offended. I feel like you consider a relationship with the person as presented, not as someone who you can change in to what you want. (I think this is different from someone who changes their look after you are already in a relationship, where I feel you can have more say)
Anon
For me, it’s less about the fact that you can change hairstyle and more about my feeling that a hairstyle will be no big deal if I like this guy’s personality and am otherwise attracted to him. I always find that I get much more attracted to people as I get to know them, so if on date #1 I think this guy is attractive and has a great personality, but a goofy hairstyle, I’d probably just ignore it, because I think by date #3 or #4, I probably wouldn’t even be noticing the hairstyle. My answer would be very different if you overall didn’t find him attractive.
Anon
Maybe you’re fixating on hairstyle because you know that this guy isn’t the one for you.
Far more likely, you believe that “the right one” is magically perfect for you. This is a great way to be single.
Curly
I agree with these Anons. Also heavily disagree with your friend about asking him to change his hairstyle later. I think I fall more into Dating Is Hard’s camp in that I generally try to decide if I can live with or be attracted to the guy however I meet him. People are not improvement projects. It’s possible he doesn’t much care about it or hates it and doesn’t know how to fix it, but it’s equally possible that he likes his hair how it is. I love my own hair and would be very upset if a guy asked me after a few months if I could wear my hair straight instead of curly.
Anonymous
Then knock yourself out and don’t date him. If you really can’t envision a future in which you see beyond a hairstyle to a great guy and are attracted to him, I feel sorry for you.
Anonymous
I don’t know–i am imagining a man bun or something, and I just think…it isn’t just the hair. hair (and other appearance related stuff) is how we chose to present ourselves to the world. i would feel sort of weird about dating a guy with a man bun. Now, you might meet him, talk to him, and find out that he really doesn’t care about his hair at all, and can laugh about it. But if he takes his man bun seriously…that might just be enough for me to not be attracted to him.
Dating is hard
FWIW, a man bun isn’t far off
Suburban
My least favorite man’s hairstyle is that one where the stylist has cut pointy pieces down from ears, like faux sideburns made from head hair, that kind of hang off the head but where the sideburns should be. It makes the mans real hair look like a wig that doesn’t fit. (At least joe dirt had actual sideburns..)
Second least favorite is that weird Caesar one where it’s like Lloyd Christmas, short and brushed forward but in a very severe square framing the face (it’s buzzed at the corners to achieve this). Men who wear this often wear heavy necklaces.
So if we’re being shallow, I would totally date a man bun before either of these. But then both my husband and son are handsome with terrible hair, so what do I know?
Anonymous
Yeah I mean there are hair styles and then there are Lifestyle Choices. Like dreads. Or really long hair when you’re balding. Or, like you said, the man bun.
Age also matters. A bad hair cut, even a Lifestyle Choice haircut, is totally forgivable in your 20s – like the person who posted below about her husband with the pony tail. Would I date someone with a pony tail when I was 25? Sure! But at 35? No. I’m not here for a man who’s in his late 30s/early 40s and can’t figure out how to look reasonably neat and put together. I feel like that implicates maturity issues that I’m not interested in dealing with.
Senior Attorney
Heh my second husband was balding with really long hair. A friend of mine called it a “skullet.”
Never too many shoes...
My trip to Italy last year certainly suggested that a man can look more than presentable with a ponytail no matter his age…but you have to be hot and sophisticated to do it.
Senior Attorney
Yeah, I was thinking combover…
Dating is hard
I have and would date a guy with a bad combover, balding, or bald. Something about choosing to have a statement hairstyle in your late 30s, when you have options cause you are not going bald, … I don’t know, gives me pause, when I don’t find that statement hairstyle attractive
Shanananana
I am of the belief that if I am interested in getting to know someone better, even if its only because I find them interesting at first and not necessarily attractive, follow that instinct.
Ellen
Yes, you are to picky. What happened if he shaved his head? Would that be different? Or if he wore a hat? It is the inside what counts. If you could envision haveing $ex with him with a different hairstyle, I am sure if you told him that, he would change his hairstyle in a flash. Men often do that immediately if they know you will be having $ex with them if they do, so they do it! That is an easy one! YAY!!!
Anon
I honestly feel like it’s hard to know if you’re truly attracted to someone until you kiss them. Do what you like, if you really don’t want to go then don’t, but I think you are being too picky *for me* and I’d go out on one date just to see. You are doubting yourself and the stakes seem pretty low here, so giving it a shot seems harmless.
Anon
I’d meet him for a drink and see where is goes. It’s one drink and really no commitment. If you don’t feel a connection move on. Whatever the reason, if you’re not interested it’s fine. I don’t expect to date some male model or actor but I need to be attracted to him.
Anon
Oh dude, yes that is superficial. If you otherwise like him, this can be changed, but carefully. My husband had a ponytail when I met him. Good lord it was awful. But it is gone now and he’s been through quite a number of hair styles since. (All of them better than the godawful ponytail).
Dating is hard
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I think part of what is holding me back is that this is a friend of a friend, and I feel like I shouldn’t try unless I actually think I could be interested in him long-term. If it was a online date, I probably wouldn’t give it a second thought and just go out with him and see how I felt. But, since he is a friend of a friend, I will probably see him again after this and don’t want to be misleading/etc.
FWIW, it isn’t just a bad haircut, but more like a style that is trying to say something about your personality. And I am in no way attracted to him physically as a result, nor am I attracted to any person I have ever seen with this hair style. But I know it is superficial, which is why I asked, and will try to look past it next time I see him at a group event.
Falstaff
“And I am in no way attracted to [her] physically as a result, nor am I attracted to any person I have ever seen with this hair style. But I know it is superficial, which is why I asked, and will try to look past it next time I see [her] at a group event.”
Would you want to go on a date with someone had said or thought this about you?
Annonnnn
This. Don’t go. I care far more about who a person is than about a hairstyle and if someone didn’t want to go out with me because of what they thought my hair said about me (without actually taking the time to get to know me), I would consider it a bullet dodged.
anon
Yes yes, you’re an excellent, totally not-shallow person, other people who want to be attracted to their partners are bad, vacuous, shallow people. OP definitely doesn’t care about who a person is on the inside; she’s probably just some superficial harpy who would have made this guy’s life miserable. Is that enough validation for you?
Annonnnn
Wow, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed!! I said don’t go, which is what she wants the outcome to be anyway. Why she wants to come here and get our permission to be shallow, I have no idea.
anon
Yes it appears that you did get up on the wrong side of the bed, as you’ve chosen to make a post insulting OP for what appears to be no reason and then a post at me pretending that you did not.
apres
Is he a white dude with dreadlocks? That would be a dealbreaker for me because it is culturally and racially appropriative and I want any person I’m dating to already know that. Is he bald with a ponytail? That is ugly as fork (in my opinion), but it can be cut, but I am not sure I would want to tell a grown man on a date to do something about his hair. Otherwise… I mean, my hair is not always gorgeous, sometimes I wait too long between cuts, and sometimes I spend all day on a bike or skis and then go grab drinks rocking sweaty helmet hair. I hope my partner is cool with that because it’s part of life? I guess what I am saying is there is a spectrum of problems here, and I am not quite sure where this person falls so you will have to work that out a bit more.
Anonymous
How bad is the hair exactly? Prince valiant? Mullet? Or is it a hairstyle that is concurrent with certain personality traits/lifestyles that you’re just not that into (e.g. the man bun that other posters have mentioned). IMO people on this board tend to downplay the importance of the gardening aspect of a relationship. I think that is a mistake. I can watch different movies than my husband, we can hang out with different friends, but he is my only option for gardening… Open relationships I guess are an option, but if the school runs are complicated logistics for this crowd, imagine sorting THAT out.
You deserve to be attracted to the people you date. Your friend is not in charge of your feelings.
Anonymous
If you’re not interested in him you’re not. I think if you really liked the guy and found him otherwise attractive then a bad hair style wouldn’t really register. Fwiw an ex had HORRIBLE hair – his friends routinely made fun of him for his bad hair – and I didn’t even notice until someone pointed it out to me (and I couldn’t believe I overlooked that, cannot unsee! but by then I was smitten).
There’s no harm in talking to him again at the event. Maybe you can be friends! And who knows maybe he’ll have friends that you’ll click with.
...
^^I agree with this. It is easy to overlook someone’s dreadful style choices (or life choices, ask me how i know) if you are attracted to them.
MPB
It’s personality, not hair that attracts me to someone. I use to work with two guys that had the same look, that male pattern baldness and the moustache look. I remember thinking about one being attractive the other being totally not attractive, until I realized that they both looked almost exactly the same but one was a super nice friendly guy and the other was a total pr*ck at work.
Anonymous
Having done this sort of thing quite a bit–decide I don’t like someone because of X small thing, I’ve come to realize it’s my intuition speaking to me, and telling me that this is not a good match for me.
Anon
Relationship advice for me and my childhood best friend. We have great chemistry, it’s incredibly fun to hang out together, and I love spending time with him. We’re late 20s. We dated in our early 20s and broke up before I went to law school due to distance. He wants to date again, but I’m convinced that we wouldn’t work out. I am developing a law practice in a landlocked state, he dreams of a traveling job based on a coast – and if I marry, I want a lot of time with my spouse. He wants kids, I don’t. I am neat and tidy, and just looking at his car makes me want to take a shower. He shrugs these things off because he thinks things just work out. I think people work to make things work out. Should I just enjoy dating him and see where things go? Or is that just delaying an inevitable painful breakup over future things?
anon
I think you tell him you want different things. focus on the big things like kids. I agree that the things like being neat or not are solvable problems. I think you need to have an adult conversation about what you want in a relationship/life, and if it’s a match, date. If not then don’t. Unless you’re both just having fun and are on the same page about that.
Anonymous
Nope don’t date him and scale back the friendship. Kids, unlike a hair style or dirty car, are a deal breaker.
Anon
I think everything except the kids thing is honestly no big deal. People marry someone they love spending time with and share big values with. It’s unusual to find those things in someone who also happens to be your personality twin. Most couples have someone who is neat and someone who is a lot messier. But the kids thing will be tough if you both feel strongly about it.
DCR
It sounds like there are some big items you don’t have common ground on – kids, living location, etc. Those are not little things that just solve themselves. Maybe some of those are being a dreamer, like does he have a concrete plan to move in to a travel-heavy field? I dream about that too, know it is not compatible with other, more important life goals, and know it will never happen. But the kids one is hard to get over.
I don’t think there is a right answer her. My fear with dating him would be (1) you are wasting time when you could otherwise be looking for someone who is compatible and (2) when you break up, it will ruin your friendship. Are you willing to risk those downsides to dating him?
Cat
Those are three pretty major topics to disagree about and it sounds like a recipe for resentment if you try to make it work. There’s no compromise on having a child. And deciding on a place to live and career/work life balance is pretty fundamental, and a quieter, stable life in a landlocked state vs. a busy traveling life from a coast are very different pictures.
And although it sounds more minor in the context of the other two, you’re not going to magically turn him into a tidy person nor are you going to magically get over your hatred of mess, so unless you’re prepared to clean up after him for the rest of your life, be ready for a perpetual state of low-grade annoyance.
Cat
Q – why did this go to m0d?
Anonymous
Nope, don’t do it. You want different things out of life.
Anonymous
How does he think things will work out? You both want to change things about the other person. Does he think things are going to work out because he’s willing to do all the changing to meet you where you are? Or does he expect you to change to accommodate his preferences? At least two of the things you mention – kids and location – are binary choices that don’t allow for much compromise. How does he think these things will get resolved? And if he’s going to make the changes for you, is he prepared to do that with an open heart and not resent you for the rest of your lives?
Jardigan help
I have an MMLF jardigan (the short one). If you have this, what do you wear it with?
I think it may slim down my upper body and help inadvertently magnify my godzilla-like hips/thighs.
All I can think of is sleeveless dresses in a different color, but I wear sleeveless dresses in the summer and the jardigan doesn’t quite add enough warmth for my freezing office. Help! I like it, but need to get it into my rotation!
Anon
Yes, it goes over sleeveless dresses in basically any color. If your issue is that it’s not warm enough, there’s no way to style it to make it warmer. It is a knit cardigan. Maybe wear a spring scarf with it? I’m confused– what do you normally wear over your sleeveless dresses in summer that would keep you any warmer than a jardigan would?
Anon
I hope this isn’t insensitive, but I know there are quite a few people here who were cheated on by a long-term partner many years into the relationship. I was wondering if, with the benefit of hindsight, you have any insight into problems in your marriage or factors that led to the cheating (I hope this doesn’t seem like I’m blaming the victim – even if there were serious pre-existing problems, that does NOT excuse cheating). Right now I feel like my 10 year marriage is very solid and my husband would never ever cheat, but I imagine a lot of people who have felt this way have still been cheated on. I know there are plenty of cads out there who will cheat at the first opportunity, but I’m interested in learning more about what led stereotypical “good guys,” who seemed very committed to their wives and families for many years, to cheat.
Anonymous
They wanted to. That’s all it is. Plenty of people in horrible marriages never cheat.
Anon
I’m interested in this too. What made me think of this was the British show Doctor Foster (available on Netflix) that I binged this weekend. I can’t offer insight but I can say that I believe you are asking an interesting question and coming from a place of sincerity and I too wonder.
AIMS
I think people sometimes cheat because of how it makes them feel – younger, more attractive, more alive… whatever… at least in my limited experience that feeling plays the biggest role in an otherwise ‘good’ guy or gal cheating on their SO.
Anonymous
+1
Some people may be more prone to seeking a fix / a thrill / whatever. Maybe it’s the person who is more unhappy? But it’s not a sign that the non-cheater has a lot of undone work in the relationship. Maybe more that the cheater has some undone self-inspection work?
Anon
Yes, it’s not always about problems in the relationship. I think that some people have affairs because they are unhappy and looking for something that they’re not getting in the relationship or to assuage their insecurity or any number of emotional reasons. And then other people cheat just cause it really is just about the excitement of gardening with someone new. If you’re having the occasional one night stand on business travel and being safe about it, I don’t see how that makes you a terrible person. I find it odd that people are characterizing cheating as a character flaw. There’s a huge spectrum of behavior. Some of it’s awful and some of it really wouldn’t bother me.
Eh
“The occasional one night stand on business travel and being safe about it” does absolutely make you a terrible person UNLESS your significant other has expressly authorized and consented to you doing so. But then, it’s not cheating, is it? If you are in a relationship, and you garden with a person who is not your partner, behind your partner’s back– that’s cheating. And it is terrible.
Anon
It wasn’t me but my sister and my best friend. In both cases the men came across a woman they spent a lot of time around (one was the babysitter, one was a client) who were basically pursuing them s3xually, and life at home felt difficult and mundane, and I don’t know, they “slipped” into the available vajayjay.
Both of these guys were guys you would have thought of as nice guys. Both of them are now married to the other woman, and were FAR from being nice guys during the divorces. And both have subsequently cheated on the new wives.
Yhyhyh
So basically the other women got to marry a cheater while the first wives got their freedom! I bet your sis/ BFF are laughing their a$$e$ off about it.
Anon
Yeah they both kind of are now but the h3ll they went through in the divorce proceedings I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy, seriously.
Anon for this
I just want to kindly point out that “the available vajayjay” is a really awful thing to say. The women in those situations are still people, and probably had their own demons and faults, and most likely knowingly behaved badly, but that’s no reason to dehumanize them.
Anonymous
I never buy that the babysitter is pursuing the husband. He’s got all the power in that situation.
Anon
In this particular situation she though he was rich. It turns out it was my sister who was the high earner. Even with alimony and child support her new lifestyle with my sisters ex was not what she thought it would be. She knew what she was doing, almost. But my ex BIL is certainly, certainly to blame as well.
Anonymous
IDK – they all have the power to say no, right?
And babysitter, if she is married to the ex, is not the teen from across the street (eeewwwww), but maybe what I think happened with John Edwards / Rielle Hunter (also: eeeewwwww)
anon
I know not everyone is a lawyer, but if your sister’s ex is one he should be reported to the bar for sleeping with a client– or really any profession where he has a fiduciary relationship to his client. I’m concerned how you’re removing the agency from these men. You don’t fall into v@gina. Saying “slip into available vajajay” is a disgusting thing to say.
Anon
Also the babysitter wasn’t an 18 year old. She was an early 30s divorcee with two kids.
Anon
To anon at 11:51, when i said slipped into an available vajayjay I was actually making fun of the men, because both of them said they “slipped” and it was an accident, like somehow they tripped on their shoelaces and fell into intercourse? It’s ridiculous and yes, I do think they’re both scum of the earth.
Anonymous
Honestly, I think that is how the dudes see it.
Anonymous
They slept with someone’s husband. How much sympathy can anyone have for them?
Anonymous
Plenty. Powerful men prey on women.
Anonymous
And a lot of men are so insecure that they like having their egos propped up by extra female attention. Especially where there is a whiff of the guy having $.
Anon
I will dehumanize the woman who put my sister though what she has been through all day long. You have no idea.
Anonymous
I’m with you, but I still put a good 75% of the blame on the person who did the other more wrong. In this case, cheating husband way worse than little strumpet.
anonymous
Little strumpet? My god, the sexism comes out so much when we have these adultery posts.
Anonymous
I feel for your sister, but the other woman didn’t put her through any of that. her husband did.
Anon
Your sister’s HUSBAND did that.
Anon
He did and he didn’t. He cheated and he’s an awful person. New wife/former babysitter committed identity theft on my sister, more than once, and verbally abused my sister’s children when they were in her custody. They both have agency, I blame them both.
anon
…okay, but none of that was in your original post, so you can’t really blame us for not knowing that the babysitter also committed a crime…
Anonymous
In the words of Sir James Goldsmith, “When a man marries his mistress he creates a vacancy” Enough said.
Anon
I have a theory that (absent extraordinary circumstances) there are cheaters and non-cheaters, and it’s a pretty stark line between the two. Some people are interested in the excitement and risk of an affair, and they justify in pretty similar ways (I deserve it. I only live one life. etc.) And some people sort of cut that stuff off before it becomes a “thing” in their minds…they’re married, and an affair is just off the table. I don’t think there are “good guys” who cheat – I think there are just people who will and people who won’t. I dated some pretty fun, attractive, nice guys who I just *knew* would not be able to remain monogamous for the long haul. I settled down with somebody who I love but isn’t as fun and exciting as other boyfriends, but I knew from the start he would never stray.
(again — absent extraordinary circumstances, there’s always weird exceptions).
Senior Attorney
I tend to agree with this.
Anonymous
+1000 Senior attorney, I just want to say that I admire you and are a big reason I come to this s*it*e. Thank you for the year of good advice!!
Anonymous
That’s interesting. I tend to think life is way more nuanced and grey (and no, I haven’t cheated or been cheated on) but I can understand the appeal of seeing something like this in terms of black and white.
Anon
+1
anon
Yeah, I agree with this. Life is complicated and there are so many situations that can arise. One of my best friends cheated on her very long term boyfriend. He was incredibly verbally abusive and demeaning; she met someone who wasn’t – who was incredibly kind to her, valued her as a person, etc. In an ideal world, would she have left her husband before she became involved with that guy? Yes, but the truth is that until she became involved with that guy, she thought she didn’t deserve to be treated differently. She and the guy she cheated with have now been married for 7 years, she’s gotten tons of therapy, and they’re very happy.
Senior Attorney
You know what? I tend to agree with this, too. Although I definitely think there is a subset of humanity that can properly be labeled “cheaters,” I worked with somebody many years ago who got involved with somebody while he was still married. He left his wife for her, they got married, and as far as I can tell they’ve had a wonderful marriage for the past 35 years. There are exceptions, too, I guess.
Anonymous
I generally think of cheaters the way I think of embezzlers or poisoners. It’s an ease with violation of trust.
Different if you rob banks — still theft, but not with the abuse of trust.
Anonymous
Agreed. It always surprises me how black-and-white this community is when it comes to cheating (and how much people always assume it is the husband who cheats). there is so much nuance to relationships, and everything is more gray.
anon
To be completely honest, I think a lot of the black-and-white response comes from a visceral fear that it might be your husband that cheats. That’s so scary, and brings home so hard the fragility of marriage – because no matter how committed you are, you’re entirely dependent on the other person to be committed to. You can’t control it. So you just insist that only terrible awful people cheat, and that the non-cheating partner bears no responsibility for the state of the relationship, and that anything the non-cheating partner did is irrelevant to the cheating.
In literally every instance of cheating I’ve witnessed, with one exception, the cheating was a symptom of serious marital problems, including emotional or physical abuse by the non-cheating spouse (including emotional/physical abuse by women of their husbands). I’ve never seen cheating happen out of the blue. I’ve heard secondhand stories about it, but that’s not what I’ve seen in my friends’ relationships or my own.
(The exception was my parents’ neighbor, who was his wife’s sole caregiver for years while she was in treatment for a very serious form of cancer. I think he cheated largely because there was no one emotionally supporting him, and the affair partner became that person who did support him emotionally and with whom he wasn’t just a caregiver. That was an awful situation, but they worked through it and are still together (the husband and wife). Should he have done that? No, but it wasn’t prompted by a desire to put one over on someone, or selfishness, or thrillseeking – it was just poor judgment in the face of unbelievable strain.)
BTW, my ex-spouse cheated on me and I can freely admit that his cheating was a symptom of the terrible state of our marriage, not the cause of it. I wish he hadn’t cheated, but I also wish we’d prioritized our relationship and gotten counseling and worked on our marriage instead of pushing each other away until we were at the point where he sought escapism in another person and I sought it in my hobbies.
Anon
This is me. I would have never found the strength to leave without somebody else to pull me out and tell me I was worth more.
Pretty Primadonna
I agree.
Anon
I agree. It also explains why so many men who marry the mistress then cheat on her.
Anon
Counterpoint. I cheated on my college boyfriend early on in the relationship. In hindsight, I wasn’t that into him and I hadn’t gotten much attention from men/had much experience dating at that point, so it was hard to ignore attention from a guy that was objectively way more of a “catch” than my BF. I had been drinking some but I don’t think alcohol was a big factor. After that one hook-up I felt completely horrible, and felt more ready to ‘commit’ to my boyfriend (we were already exclusive, but I wasn’t mentally committed to him). I never told him about it and we dated for two years after that. The relationship ended because I realized he wasn’t the one for me and I was starting to notice/flirt with other guys too much, but at least that time I had the sense to break it off with my BF before anything untoward happened. I’m head over heels in love with my husband and can’t imagine cheating on him in any circumstance. We’ve had some bad fights and rough times and I’ve met some very attractive guys during our marriage and I’ve never felt even the slightest impulse to cheat. So I believe people really can grow out of it, or at least learn a lesson that cheating is completely unacceptable. Just my two cents. I admit I would have (hypocritically) been scared to marry someone with a history of cheating, but fortunately it wasn’t a dealbreaker for my husband.
How Long
Your OP describes my life perfectly. I was married for a little over 12 years to a “nice man” who EVERYONE thought would never cheat. Well, he did. He was a professor and got involved in an affair with a recently graduated student who had been a mentee of his.
I’ve talked about this issue a lot in therapy, and even if there may have been things I could have done better in the relationship (which is true of every single relationship), the reason he cheated lies within him. I think he was insecure and deeply unhappy with himself and liked the validation. Looking back on it, I could definitely see the warning signs, but it’s all personality stuff. Things he would get upset about because I wasn’t fawning over him enough or I didn’t seem to “need” him, etc. These are all personality traits I avoid in men I’m dating.
We went to marriage counseling for a while before he cheated because we were both generally bored with the relationship. It got a lot better after that, and I thought it was fixed. Apparently not. I truly think there’s nothing I could have done differently outside changing my fundamental personality. What I could have done earlier was recognize that the relationship wasn’t working. But he was telling me up until a week before the bombshell that he was happy, and he was acting excited about some changes we were making.
The whole experience taught me that I will never truly know what’s in another person’s heart, so I have to do the best I can and hope it works out. If you’re interested in more about this, Ester Perez wrote a long article a couple of years ago about why seemingly happy people cheat. Parts of it rang true based on the experience with my ex husband.
How Long
Oops weird autocorrect! Esther Perel (not Perez).
https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537882/
Anonymous
I’m sorry this happened to you. It happened to my sister, but with a total gaslighter (basically, if she had a lobotomy, fawned all over him, became 25, and never bothered him a whit about their mutual responsiblities to their kids, maybe he wouldn’t have cheated, but it was all, ALL her fault that he did).
I do fundamentally believe that one person doesn’t make the other cheat. You may make him/her miserable, unhappy, etc. But you cheat on your own.
Original Moonstone
My partner is a professor, and I have to say this scenario is the only one where I could see them cheating. The kind of validation teachers get from students is intoxicating.
Anon
Yes. There is nothing you can do to prevent someone from cheating on you. It’s part of the inherent uncertainty in life. It’s scary to think about but a little freeing if you’re willing to accept it. I also had the nice guy partner who would “never ever” cheat – until he did. He has reasons, of course, but I agree with the above poster that they lie within him.
Anon
My husband is also a professor. He hates teaching and doesn’t get much validation from it, but the only scenario in which I could see him cheating is with his closest research collaborator. They spend a lot of time alone together and they just share this whole world that I can’t be part of and I know she gives him a level of intellectual stimulation I can’t, even though I’m very smart by normal people standards. Fortunately she’s married, which makes it a lot less likely she’d actively pursue him (and her husband is great and super cute, so I joke with DH that if they have an affair, we’ll just swap spouses..but obviously I don’t really want to do that).
Anon
My ex- cheated about 10 years into the marriage and I was shell-shocked at the time, but in hindsight there were many warning signs. Mostly it was a growing distance between us, his depression and unhappiness that I thought was limited to his job. Every marriage and divorce is different but I feel spouses usually know when things are not right or someone is changing. Unfortunately, I don’t think facing up to this sooner would have saved my marriage but in some cases, I think it could.
Anonymous
Or, it’s like he is showing the signs that he is leaning out (instead of doing the heavy lifting or getting everyone on the same page re relationship status or acknowledging differing views / wishes of how things should go next).
Pretty Primadonna
Cheating is a character flaw. As others have noted, there are plenty of people in unhappy relationships and marriages that do not cheat.
Anon
I fully understand that. Maybe I phrased my question badly, but I’m also curious about the indications that someone has this character flaw, even if they’re just personality traits (like neediness, for example) and not something you can necessarily change.
-OP
Anonymous
My husband is a germaphobe with some underlying anxiety problems (maybe that is redundant?). So I know that the upside of this is that he is constitutionally incapable of cheating.
I think I am too reputationally-concerned to cheat, like I’m too vain of reputation. Also I can’t imagine that I’d ever find a situation where it wasn’t completely laughable to outsiders (and 5 minutes later, so not worth it).
Anon
My husband is extremely honest (I suspect he has Asperger’s or tendencies in that direction) so I know he couldn’t keep cheating from me. This is good and bad – I don’t think he’d be able to engage in a long-term affair, because he couldn’t handle the deception, but if he had a one night stand he’d definitely fess up (even though I wouldn’t want necessarily want him to).
How Long
My ex had a constellation of traits that I now relate back, but at their core, they all showed a need for validation, never feeling good enough, and general unhappiness with himself and his situation. He was very needy and seemed to always depend on others to find any kind of happiness (and even then, it was very short lived). If he was unhappy at home one day it wasn’t because he needed to make some friends. It was because I went to book club and stayed too late while he was home alone. Things like that.
Also, as the poster above said, he seemed almost intoxicated by the fact that his students idolized him. We all like to be recognized for a job well done, but his reaction was different than just happiness that he was good at his job— it was more of a feeling of satisfaction that they recognized and worshiped his superiority in a way.
Anonymous
Women cheat too. I cheated early on my marriage. I did it because I wanted to, because it was fun and exciting. It’s stereotypical, but my marriage did have problems. My husband was verbally abusive and just a difficult person to live with. It was easy to get close with another person emotionally and then physically.
This doesn’t excuse my behavior in any way. I could have suggested we go to counseling or talk with him about why I was unhappy.
I think love languages are important. I did not feel like my husband loved me.
I think it’s important to have regular check ins and talk about how things are going. I think it can be easy to fall into a pattern of superficial interactions in marriage and you drift away.
Having an affair can be fun and exciting in the short term, but it doesn’t take care of the deeper problems in a relationship.
Pretty Primadonna
Ah, I see. Aside from the obvious markers (checking out other women in front of me, having a lot of female “friends,” being friends with alllllllll his exes), the one thing I have found common in cheaters is the enjoyment of “getting over” on people, being able to get away with something. It is closely related to having integrity. I’m trying to think of a good example to demonstrate what I mean. Will come back with that…
Pretty Primadonna
Also mixed in with this is selfishness.
S
This, 100%. Even if I did cheat (and I don’t think I will), I’m pretty sure I’d confess pretty much immediately because having a secret would be a sickening burden, not a delicious thrill. It’s just how I’m wired. Sure, I make day-to-day decisions to be good and faithful to my husband, but I’m also distinctly aware that an affair would probably be all anxiety and no fun for me, so it’s not difficult. And I intentionally chose to marry someone wired the same way. Who knows what the future holds, but I tried to stack the cards in our favor as much as possible.
anon for this
From the perspective of someone who started veering into emotional affair territory with a coworker several years ago, it was a variety of factors. Boredom, proximity, novelty, personality incompatibilities with my husband that did not exist with this coworker, the f@ntasy that you have when you only see the best aspects of someone vs. the reality of day to day life with your spouse, etc. Once I realized what was happening, I pulled way back on my friendship with this coworker, and ended up getting a different job for unrelated reasons. He and I initially fell into friendship quickly, but the whole process happened gradually over the course of a couple of years. It was very eye opening and I know what not to do in the future. My husband and I are still married, pretty happily, and I have not ever told him about this.
Anonymous
My ex wanted someone to tell him how wonderful he was even when he wasn’t. He wanted someone to be a sympathetic ear to all of his grievances about me – grievances that I wasn’t entertaining because they were objectively ridiculous. In retrospect I think it was a mistake to not let him feel heard. I was focused on who was “right” and not how to have a good partnership. He went to someone who made him feel validated. I don’t think the cheating is my fault, but I do think I should have insisted that we get into counseling so that I would have listened to him without being so contemptuous, and maybe it would’ve helped him to see that no his complaints were not valid. Or maybe I should’ve just left sooner.
My BFF cheated after her BF became distant and increasingly depressed because he lost his job and didn’t get a new one for years. She felt like she couldn’t leave the relationship because he depended on her financially. It was like there was a dark cloud hanging over her. She dreaded going home at night. She cheated because she wanted some fun and levity. I think she wanted to escape – and this was the only way her BF would for sure leave her. Of course she felt even worse because of what she did and how terribly she hurt her BF. It’s been over 10 years and she still feels deeply ashamed and like she’ll never live it down.
Anonymous
My BFF’s ex was nerdy and poor as a kid and was never cool. Never got parental attention.
When he was done with his residency, he was “rich” and the hospital gets-around employee was there to fawn all over him. It was like his crack — so addicting and something he had never had before and he was hooked (he was married, but marriages have things like obligations and taking out the trash and visiting your inlaws at xmas, which no affair partner inflicts upon you).
But it was all my BFF’s fault b/c she didn’t “support” him enough (despite solo parenting while he worked 80+ hour weeks as a resident and they had no $ b/c she couldn’t afford child care with their HCOL residency city and his poor pay and what little she’d make and she had to cover all Kid1 sick days before getting sacked for missing too much work). So, as a lawyer, I do get why we hate doctors (but now for other reasons).
Anon
The only time I have “seen it coming” was a pretty cliche situation. The husband and wife were not on the same page at all. Wife was super controlling and not at all affectionate. Sexless marriage. Husband should have left and then pursued finding someone better suited for him. Instead, he stayed in the marriage until he found someone else and then he left. I’m guessing wife was so awful because they just weren’t working out and she didn’t want to fix it either. I’m not calling her awful just from things I learned from husband but from things I observed myself. It was super bizarre. He couldn’t do anything right and she would brow beat him in public. Really unhealthy. I watched them get into a huge argument at a work cookout because one of the kids managed to grab a soda. Another argument because he was speaking with a female colleague without her present. He may have done some bad things in the past that led to her being that controlling but the right response would have been to leave, not act like that.
Rainbow Hair
Hmm so I cheated on a guy I dated, a million lifetimes ago (early 20s). He was a mean, gaslighting, manipulative dude. I should’ve broken up with him, but I ‘couldn’t’ (he wouldn’t ‘let’ me) so I cheated. I don’t think I’m a cheater, though. But cheating really did help the final breakup stick. And now, with the benefit of lots of time and a good amount of therapy… I’ve got my act together more or less, I like myself, I’m out of that particular toxic situation, I’ve grownTF up, and I’m with someone who isn’t awful… and I don’t think I’m a cheater. I certainly can’t imagine cheating.
Anonforthis
I just found out last weekend that I’m pregnant. We, um, were not trying. In fact, I know husband does not want another kid, and all I can figure is something I took (allergy med?) must have interacted with my bc.
I want to be elated, but the drain on it is I have no idea how to tell my husband (but yes, I can tell internet strangers, sure). He’s probably going to see this is as a catastrophe. I don’t think he’s ever loved being a parent. We have two kids already, the youngest is already in school. The early years were rough for us, and we’re just starting to feel like we are getting our lives back. While I kinda wanted a third, I knew re-setting the clock on getting out of the baby years was so far beyond what my husband wanted that I didn’t try to talk him into trying for a third. Now… it looks like that decision is made for us. Anyway, just had to vent. Send me good vibes for how to break the news and hopes that he’ll take it well (or at least come around to it).
If anyone has had a big spread on kid ages, some encouragement would also be nice. I’m not sure how I feel about a pseudo-only-child straggler here, especially right as we’re launching into almost pre-teen years with the oldest.
Anon
Abortion is an option and is something you should seriously consider if you value your marriage. Your husband does not want a third child and has made that clear. Obviously you should tell him about this and discuss it together, but if I were your husband and my wife had an accidental pregnancy and presented it to me as “this decision has been made for us” I’d be pretty livid. Both partners need to be fully on board to bring a child into the world, even one that has already been conceived.
Anonforthis
Not an option for religious reasons. Husband is on the same page with me on this, I guarantee.
Anonymous
Then I wish you the best of luck and book him a vasectomy stat.
Anon
This. If your husband didn’t want a child so badly why didn’t he have a vasectomy or abstain from procreation-related activities? The thing that worries me about the OP’s post is that the husband sees it as a “catastrophe” but did nothing to prevent it.
Anonymous
Right (suspect that the V isn’t an option for religious reasons, either).
But, srsly, people should just stop being surprised by pregnancies. Esp. if they already have children. That goes 100% for the dude here who knows full well where babies come from and still runs the risk of BC failures. Suspenders and a belt, buddy.
Anon
How is the wife taking bc pills ok but a vasectomy isn’t? I mean for religious reasons.
Anonymous
IDK, but I could see how you are resigned to lesser sins but not greater ones. Like, I might steal, but I wouldn’t murder.
Husband is too Catholic for a vascectomy (or just scared) but used c*ndoms (and I use birth control also). I would not consider abortion to be an option for me, but consider myself to be pro choice as a philosophical position.
I know he is chicken, but do respect his position that it is something that you can’t un-do (but he could quit with the rubbers at any time). Give me constancy and virtue oh Lord but not yet.
Anon
Catholicism views birth control pills as worse than a vasectomy, though? I say this as a Catholic. You also can undo a vasectomy, so his excuse is bad. He’s an adult, why coddle him around breaking the news?
Anonforthis
That wasn’t strong enough: I confess I’m horrified that the first advice here is to kill my child because it’s not convenient. I would divorce my husband first. I understand why abortion is sometimes attractive as an option, in extreme circumstances. This doesn’t even come close.
Anon
Well, it’s good that you’re fine with divorce because that’s likely where you’re headed. You’d be shocked how many “pro life” guys suddenly become fine with abortion when they accidentally knock someone up. You know the pro-life movement is about restricting women’s reproductive freedom, not about saving all the babies, right?
Anonymous
No. That’s not the advice. The advice is to not present this as a fait accompli, ignoring the reality that abortion exists and is an option. If it is not an option for you personally, then obviously do not take this advice. But you didn’t say that, and it is well intentioned advice.
Anonymous
Actually, abortion in these circumstances is often a choice people make. Totally fine if it’s not for you, not all advice you get is good! If it doesn’t apply to you just don’t take it!
Anon
Eh, your first response was fair. You and DH can be pro-life for religious reasons and not consider abortion as an option for you guys. But lets not get into the nasty judgment of people who would make the other choice. People shouldn’t have to have a child they don’t want just because they’re married, weren’t raped and can afford to buy diapers and formula. I and several other married women I know had early abortions because it wasn’t the right time for a child or our family already felt complete. Please lets not devolve into mud-slinging about murdering babies.
Anon
Your response to this person’s common sense suggestion is what’s too strong. “Kill my child” – if you had such anti-choice sentiments then you should have put that in your original post of “I plan on keeping the child, no suggestions of abortion please.”
Or…you’ve just outed yourself as a troll. In such case, keep on stepping we’re too smart.
lsw
+1. No need to cast judgment on others, OP.
Suburban
+100000
Anon
Are you suggesting that pro-life women are not welcome here?
Anon
That is not at all what was suggested. She made the point that she expects civility and decency in the treatment of all viewpoints.
Anon
Pro life viewpoints are derided here, so that was not her point.
Anonymous
pro-life viewpoints are definitely derided here. I think it’s gross that both of the initial suggestions here are 1) kill it and 2) give it away. That’s my opinion, sorry if you don’t like it.
anon
Oh stop. Was the person who responded to you supposed to know you were both anti-abortion? Also, falling back on the old anti-choice “convenience” trope? If you really think this is just an inconvenience then you wouldn’t have made this post. Inconvenience is forgetting milk at the store an having to run back. Inconvenience is when you have to find a new day care, or when there’s construction on the highway and you’re late to work. This will be a life altering event for you and your husband. Does that mean that you should have an abortion? Of course not, if that’s not what you want. But ffs, I’m so tired of this disingenuous crap. Did you really not think that someone here might mention abortion as an option for ending an obviously unintended pregnancy??? Oh, but you’re *horrified!* Okay.
Anon
Adoption is an option too. I’m in the process of adopting and a common scenario is married folks who were done having kids that accidentally got pregnant and don’t want to start over.
Anon
I would strongly consider adoption given your preferences and your husband’s feelings about another child. I personally know a teenager who was adopted as a newborn–he was the birth mother’s third child with her husband and they felt like they just could not afford a third. It’s an open adoption and the child is doing very very well. I can’t say how the adopted mother is doing or feels all these years later as I’m not quite that close to the family.
anonymous
Legit question…. how do you think an adoption would go over for a happily married couple that already has children? How do you explain to your older children that mom’s having a baby but you don’t want to raise it so you’re giving it away? How is that going to be received by other family members? (Not that these things should be the deciding factor, but I have genuinely always wondered this when people suggest adoption for a couple that already has children– especially when they’re old enough to know what’s going on.)
Anon
Yeah adoption doesn’t really make sense to me for a couple with elementary schoolers. Might work if the kids are very young (under 3?) and too young to understand what’s happening, or much older (maybe high school age?) and you could really sit them down and explain the situation. But I feel like an 8 year old would just panic that you’re going to give them away next.
Anon
There are counselors that specialize in this. With the existing kids, I think you explain that you are helping another couple start a family, the same way someone explains surrogacy. The kids don’t need to know that it was an oops. I think the support of family members varies. As most adoptions are open now-a-days, the families stay connected as the child grows. There was an ask a manager post about a pregnant woman wanting to know how to explain to her coworkers she was placing the child for adoption. There was a lot of advice from all angles in that thread.
My friend was a surrogate for another couple and her kids were elementary school aged. As far as I know, they weren’t traumatized by it. She just explained that the other couple couldn’t carry a baby so she was carrying it for them.
You can explain when they are older that they are biologically related.
Anon
I think it would be one of those very difficult discussions to have with your children. But if it is the right choice for the family in the long run, doesn’t that make it worth it? If adults can see the virtue in one decision over another, shouldn’t we be able to figure out how to frame it to children? Divorce is hard on kids, too, but we don’t advocate against that–in fact, it turns out the opposite is (often) true!
nona
Surrogacy is one things – you are explaining to your kids about how you are helping someone else create a family by carrying THEIR baby.
But…you give up a full sibling for adoption? How does a kid not feel guilty for being part of the reason YOU GAVE AWAY THEIR SIBLING? I got to think that has the potential to mess up the kid (unless they are young) and make them think you could give them up for adoption if things got rough. Or if they weren’t perfect. Or whatever.
I’m having a hard time believing that putting up a youngest full sibling up for adoption when parents are married to each other is actually that common.
anon
Yeah.. this is not just “one of those very difficult conversations to have with your children.” I am floored by that, honestly, as I am to the comparison to a conversation about divorce and the suggestion to lie to your kids by omission and pretend that you’re acting as a surrogate and presumably drop the bomb on them when they’re adults that you gave away their sibling. Just floored. The comment about it being a difficult convo for the kiddos but “worth it” actually makes me sick to my stomach. Hope you’re willing to pay for therapy for your children’s issues with abandonment and instability. Agree with nona, I highly doubt this is “common”.
Anon
I’m the person who wrote it was “common” and I want to clarify. It is a common reason for adoption. I agree that it is not common for people to place their child for adoption. Very few people choose adoption. Most choose to parent the child or to the abort the fetus. Of those that choose to place a child for adoption, there are a host of different reasons. One of the reasons we have seen (looking through prospective birth parents looking for placement) is older couples that had an accidental pregnancy after they were done having children. Not only have I seen it anecdotally but in our pre-adoption classes, we asked social workers from what situation they see parents placing and a common scenario for them is the one described here. The difference though is the other children are normally older than elementary school aged. Sometimes already out of the next.
Teenaged pregnancy no longer carries the same stigma so many of those parents now have the support of their parents and choose to parent their child. From the profiles I’ve been asked to review I have seen parents with unstable housing situations (as in homeless), parents that are struggling with addiction or mental health issues, parents that cannot afford to further expand their family, parents who thought they were done but became accidentally pregnant (this scenario) and lastly, a mother who did not learn she was pregnant until it was too late for an abortion. I have seen zero teenage moms so far. So as a percentage of those already choosing to place a child for adoption, the percent that are older parents that were otherwise done is high.
On the issue of adoption trauma, that is a very real problem and most adoptees need counseling regardless of the reason they were placed for adoption. There is a lot of work to change things to make them less traumatic (like having them be open adoptions) but there will always be some trauma. At the end of the day, every parent has to decide what is best for them. For some people that is parenting, for some people that is abortion and for some it is adoption. Anecdotally, the worst outcome is a parent that adamantly does not want a child deciding to parent the child. No child should be forced to grow up where he/she is not wanted.
Lastly, culture and religion plays a big role in this too. I am adamantly pro-choice but have learned through this process that adoption is promoted and recommended in some religious communities to prevent abortions. An older mom choosing not to parent an unexpected pregnancy would not be treated as a pariah in such a community. They would be treated as a martyr for carrying and giving birth instead of terminating. I’m not saying this is great either, it’s just what I observed.
I’ve done a lot of research on this to ensure that any placement I’m eventually connected with is ethical. I do not want to be placed with someone who was coerced to place. I also don’t want someone to be denied an abortion to place. But, for people like OP that do not want another child, are against abortion but find themselves pregnant, they are going to continue to look for someone to parent that child. Adoption is a bit like abortion in the sense that we all hope to never need it but if we do, we will be glad that option is there.
Anon
Over half of abortions in the U.S. are for women who already have children and/or are married. It’s not just some fringe occurrence in easily understandable scenarios (danger to mother’s health or rape). Abortion is an option, whether or not you choose to pursue it.
Anonymous
The advice was to terminate your pregnancy because you said a third child is a “catastrophe” for your family – it didn’t sound like a matter of “convenience”.
FWIW, I totally understand not feeling like terminating your pregnancy is an option for you. After having been pregnant twice (include one unplanned pregnancy), I knew that I didn’t want a third child and I also knew that I would struggle to terminate a pregnancy because I would immediately feel like it was “ours” and already our kids’ sibling. My husband and I are abstaining until he can get his vasectomy (a decision we reached together – me getting tubal ligation was also on the table).
Anon
What?! No! I’m pro choice, but this is….nuts.
Anon
Nuts to consider *the possibility* of terminating a child your spouse doesn’t want when he doesn’t like being a parent and the early parenting years were hard on your marriage? I personally think it’s way more nuts to force this guy to have another kid he doesn’t want and probably wouldn’t parent well.
Anon
The point of being pro-choice is that it’s the *woman* (who carries the child for 9+ months) who gets to decide whether or not to carry a child to term. The husband does not get an equal say! If that were the case, then wouldn’t a man be able to compel a woman to carry to term? I think it’s so invasive and wrong (yes nuts!) to say that he gets an equal say in this decision! OP said she kinda wanted a third – I can’t even imagine her mental state if she aborted out of consideration for her husband. If I were her, I would *hate* him for the rest of my life. If he was so averse to a pregnancy, there were ways he could have addressed this beforehand.
Anonymous
No one said he gets an equal say. Just that his opinion is one to consider.
Anonymous
What?
If she didn’t want the kid and he did, would we be screaming at her so hard to consider his wishes???
Anon
Ultimately it’s her body, her choice, but I believe both parents have to be completely on board to have a child, and if either parent is reluctant, you shouldn’t go forward. I was raised by a father who didn’t want me and a mother who did and it was horrible, absolutely horrible. Having a child in these circumstances is doing no favor to the child (to say nothing of potential consequences to their marriage and their existing children, who will surely detect family/marital problems).
Anon
Huh? In what universe are you pro-choice if you think it’s “nuts” for abortion to be one of the options considered when dealing with an accidental pregnancy that one member of the couple expressly does not want?
Never too many shoes...
So much this.
For what it is worth, I think this is not a real post.
Anon
+100!
Anonymous
Tell him, and don’t present it as a done deal? You do have options. You know he does not want another child. You at least need to be prepared to discuss abortion even if it’s not the route you choose.
Anonymous
My cousin had a kid in her early disaster marriage and when he was in school had another with her second husband. They tried for a third, which resulted in a very devastating miscarriage, then nothing. Then, years later, when they had thought there was no point in birth control, she was pregnant again (middle son was by then in school). They both work and it was not easy but her children are all so lovely and they are great parents to all 3. Maybe it helps that they are all at different ages / stages and don’t compete with each other at all?
Jane
I can offer a couple of examples from people I know who have a larger gap between children:
My BFF and her brother are 8 years apart, and she thinks its the best thing in the world. They are good friends which she attributes, among other things, to never having been in competition with one another when they were growing up. They were always in significantly different life stages. My BFF planned to have her children farther apart than most people do for this reason.
My mom is 11 years older than her younger brother, who she considers almost like her first child and they too are great friends. She doted on him from the time that he was born until she left the house for college 8 years later. Although she was not around for many of the years he was growing up, they became close again when he was in college and she had young children.
There is also a larger age gap (5 years) between two of my cousins: there were two girls, a gap, and then a surprise boy. All three kids are close and the girls were so excited when the boy came along. Again, they helped take care of him when he was little. In fact, he was late walking because the girls carried him around all the time.
My boss has four children. The fourth was an ooops baby. And she is the light of their lives. He’s told me that they were more relaxed parents when she arrived: they were older, had a little bit more money, and had already done the kid thing a few times and so it was easier. He cannot imagine life without the youngest one.
I cannot imagine what a shock this news is to you and will be to your husband. But I hope that, with time, you guys find out the third one is a bit easier and this baby also becomes a welcome and happy addition to your family.
Anon
I know lots of people who have had an “oops” child and of course you would never know he/she was an oops now. The couple I think of right away have two kids who are out of college and a little one who just finished middle school. They didn’t plan on the little one, but he happened and they adore him, and so do the older siblings. He was always the baby, and it was like he had four parents rather than two.
My coworker, his mom, says she and her husband thought they’d be empty nesters by now, but instead they get to be young parents for longer and they’re happy with how it worked out.
Anonymous
I am in my 40s and grew up with plenty of oops babies or my friends’ parents had another baby when we were in high school. It seemed to be a right of passage. My mom was an only children and then my aunt and uncle were change-of-life oops babies when she was older to help with them.
Maybe we have grown too comfortable that we have a right and expectation to get what we want all the time. IMO it has not made us better people, especially in this context.
Housecounsel
Anon at 4/22/19, this is me. I am so glad I have an oops baby. I am not ready to be done with this stage of parenting. I don’t mean to minimize the strain on OP and her relationship.
The comments about abortion are making me think. Is it hypocritical to say I am pro-choice, and also think I would judge a married, stable couple pretty hard for aborting an oops baby?
BabyAssociate
Yes, that is hypocritical.
Anonymous
I don’t think so? Pro-choice is about whether women legally control their own bodies. Lots of choices are bad choices; the question is who is deciding.
Housecounsel
Thank you. Nicely put.
Anonymous
Yes. It is. Who are you to judge? How do you know their lives?
Anonymous
Women here judge other women’s choices all of the time, even when it’s about their bodies (just look at any thread discussing diets or cosmetic procedures).
Anon
“Is it hypocritical to say I am pro-choice, and also think I would judge a married, stable couple pretty hard for aborting an oops baby?”
Yes, it’s incredibly hypocritical. It’s not hypocritical to be pro-choice and say you would not personally have an abortion. Your body, your choice. But you should not judge anyone else, especially when you have no idea what their finances look like, how stable their marriage is, what the woman’s health situation is like or whether they feel like they have enough time and attention to give another child. There’s so much more to deciding whether or not to keep a baby than just being a “married, [outwardly] stable couple.”
I’m one of the women you judge. My husband and I are financially comfortable but not nearly as wealthy as many posters here. We want to be able to give our daughter a college education while still appropriately saving for our own retirement so we’re not a burden to her in old age. Many women here have said they share the same goal. Daycare costs $25,000/year in our area, school aftercare + summer care is not much less. If we had to pay for that for two kids, unless we drastically changed our lifestyle, we would end up with a net worth that is probably $1M or more lower – funding college would be off the table, and our financial picture in retirement would look very different, with much more risk we’d end up broke. I have two married friends who had abortions too. In one case, much like the OP, the husband didn’t enjoy parenting and the marriage barely survived the baby/toddler years. She wanted to keep her family together, so terminating was the best choice. In the other case, she really wanted a third child but had health issues that would have made the pregnancy high-risk and she didn’t want to take the chance on dying and leaving her older kids motherless. Wanting to put your financial stability, your marriage, your existing children or your health above a fetus is not wrong, and you’re not “pro-choice” if you say it is.
pugsnbourbon
+1. I mean, judge however you want, But my bodily autonomy doesn’t end when I get married or cross an arbitrary income threshold.
nasty woman
Depends on how you define “pro-choice.” There are lots of people like you who don’t necessarily agree with the decision but believe the proper issue is *who* makes the choice. Personally, I do think it’s hypocritical and I would think less of a person (and doubt their pro-choice credentials) if they would judge someone for aborting simply because that person was in a stable relationship. But that’s largely because I don’t believe that the morality of supporting and exercising bodily autonomy is fluctuates based on factors like that.
Never too many shoes...
Gently, Housecounsel, it is a little bit. But, in the world we inhabit right now, as long as you are not actively lobbying to have the rights of married women taken away, I can live with it. We do not have to love the choices other people make, so long as we ultimately acknowledge that it is their choice to make.
Anon
+1
Anon
It doesn’t mean that you are not pro-choice. I’m a firm believer that pro-choice simply means that you believe that women should decide, not the government. And I believe if we more widely defined the term in that way, more people would identify as pro-choice. There is a huge part of society that believes abortions should be rare, can’t see a situation in which they would have one, but still believes they should be available even if they may judge people for getting one in some situations.
If it makes you hypocritical, that’s not a big deal. Most every person is hypocritical on some issues. For example, people here judge others all the time on not saving enough, but then they are also purchasing unnecessary things which limit their ability to save.
Housecounsel
I appreciate the contrasting viewpoints, and will re-examine my prejudices.
Vicky Austin
Since abortion is off the table, remind your husband of why you both hold that belief. Hopefully remembering that will help him make peace with this new baby’s existence rather than resenting it for turning up unexpectedly. I wish you all the best.
Anonymous
Not the OP, but I appreciate the way you phrased this – it frames the issue nicely for the discussion that needs to happen between OP and her spouse.
Anon
+1
Dana
I am currently in this boat, but my husband was thinking of a third and I felt very much done. My ‘big’ kids are 6 and 4. Unfortunately, I don’t have advice about breaking the news, as I was the one who took it harder. One thing that helped me, though, was that my husband was very understanding that I had to mourn/have such negative feelings about something that is really so wonderful and that so many people work so hard for (many in my family struggle with fertility). He let me be sad for my first trimester and that went a long way, to not feel like my feelings were ‘bad’. The perspective that helps me is to remember that this isn’t a stranger, it’s another one of the little people I love most. Also, when we are 60, having three kids will be amazing.
Best of luck to you with breaking the news and a happy and healthy pregnancy! Congratulations :)
anon
I will send you all the good vibes for this conversation! Is this something where you can take the approach of, clearly God had a plan for us that is different than the plan we had, let’s see where this wild ride goes! I know of a few oops babies that became the joys of their parents and siblings lives. Two of my friends in middle school had new baby siblings, and both have very tight relationships with their much younger siblings. Also, you know this already, but just because I recently had a miscarriage…remember that this isn’t a baby yet… this pregnancy may turn into a baby, or may not. You have time to get used to the idea.
Seventh Sister
My friend has a third who is 7 years younger than the middle kid and 10 years younger than the eldest kid. She has some pretty outspoken/boundary-less relatives and friends, which is why she basically didn’t tell anyone until the baby was born. While I’m sure it’s a pretty significant expense (a nanny again, then preschool again), she’s a sweet little thing and her older siblings adore her. It’s been great and we’re all happy for her.
I was shocked because the first time I heard about number three was when they posted that they were at the labor and delivery unit at the hospital. Then they named the baby after me (kidding, it was a family name too), and presto! I figured out they weren’t mad at me and I marched over with a baby gift. Congrats on your new addition and hopefully it will go well with your husband. If it doesn’t he’s a jerk who doesn’t deserve you. This is your life, your choice, and his role is to be helpful and supportive.
Anon surprise baby as well
Sending sympathetic warm vibes! I found out earlier this year that we were expecting a surprise third – our other children are 7 and 2. I was petrified about telling my husband- he had always said vehemently to me and to anyone who asked that two kids was enough for him and he in no way wanted a third. (Also would not get a vasectomy for religious reasons) So I was about 11 weeks before I told him… And he started laughing and he was actually really delighted. Turns out the thought of having a third horrified him more than the reality. He is still anxious about the prospect and logistics of a third, but he is actually looking forward to another kid in the family. I know our kids are younger than yours, but we also felt like we were firmly past the newborn phase, and the thought of going back to it has me exhausted already. I never thought I’d still be changing diapers in my 40s! Our first two were great, easy babies, so I feel like the odds are pretty good that this one will be difficult. I do remember feeling very alone and stressed in those weeks before I told my husband, but I shouldn’t have, and I hope you don’t either- you and your husband made a baby together and you’ll figure it out together. Good luck!
Anonymous
Sending you hugs, encouragement and good vibes!
Our third baby was a surprise too (we have a 3 yo and 20 month old) and when I found out I cried, and my husband was so stunned and upset, he took the day off work to drink. We also had been looking forward to “getting our lives back” and thought 3 would send us over the edge. By the time baby #3 was born, I was the one that was petrified and DH all of a sudden became super elated. Now we can’t imagine life without our third and our marriage is stronger than it’s ever been. For us, we have had to learn to communicate and appreciate each other at a whole different level.
Anonymous
Are any meal delivery services actually good? I love the idea, I’m super busy, emotionally unavailable for cooking, and looking to lose weight. Tried Freshly and loved the concept (6 pre made meals, microwave to heat) but the taste/quality was just bad. Not interested in meal kits since it’s the time/will do cook I’m lacking.
Anonymous
I really like Territory.
smiley
+1 for Territory – I tried it expecting that it would be mediocre tasting, but at least somewhat-healthy sustenance to get me through some particularly hellish work weeks, but I was shocked at how tasty (and filling!) almost all of my meals have been.
Anonymous
Sadly not available in NJ!
Another anon
Another fan of Territory here.
Anonymous
Glad to hear others like it! I used a different service that sadly went out of business, then switched to Territory. It’s been great, no complaints at all.
bay area associate
Not sure where you are based, but if you are in California, try Thistle.
Anon
I don’t think they do delivery, but Snap Kitchen is heat and eat.
Anonymous
sakara life is great.
Boulder recs
Restaurant recommendations in Boulder that are adult, kid and wheelchair friendly that take reservations. Heading there this summer for a multigenerational trip. Thanks!
Tippins
I just had a lovely dinner at Zucca in Louisville, just outside Boulder. Fantastic food and service!
Oh Mother
My mother was a terrible mother. I’ve come to terms with that via therapy and years of boundaries. I have one son. He sees his grandmother maybe twice a month, which I have managed by keeping strong boundaries in place and keeping control of when, where, and how long she seems him. As she ages, she is becoming more extreme in her views. For instance, she posted a terrible video this morning of an American woman goading and criticizing Muslims in a Muslim-majority community in Australia. Any reasonable person would be appalled by this woman; my mom lamented Sharia law and shared her concerns that it was coming to America. In any case, as my son grows older, how do I manage this relationship? He has now reached an age where he can probably identify that we don’t have beliefs like this in our household. Do I yank away a grandparent/grandchild relationship? Do I continue to monitor and educate? Do I let my child figure out for himself that his grandmother is terrible?
Anonymous
Unfriend, unfollow. Manage reality not her internet rantings.
Greensleeves
It sounds like there is a lot more going on here than just your mother exposing your child to views you find offensive, and I can’t speak to all of that, but I’m happy to share my experience with the differing views. My parents were generally good parents and are good grandparents to my children. However, they do have views that I find offensive from a political and social standpoint. They are racist (they don’t think they are), homophobic, etc. One is something of a conspiracy theorist. My kids have certainly heard them make comments I don’t agree with at all. However, in my case I do want to maintain a relationship and I want my kids to have a relationship with their grandparents. So we counter those views in several ways. In the moment if they say something in front of me that my kids hear and understand, I call them out. At home, we make clear to our kids that their grandparents have views we disagree with and we discuss those. My kids are older now and as they’ve grown those discussions have gotten more complex. Luckily when the grandparents are around the kids they’re usually focused on spending time together and not on expounding on their political or social views. Anyway, my experience has been that if you want to maintain that relationship, it is possible for kids to understand that grandparents hold different views and that we still love them. Obviously, that may not be a viable approach in some situations, depending on the extremity of the views and how vocal they are in front of the child.
anon
Great response! You are handling your situation and teaching your kids that you can love people with different views and that is OK. Well done!
S
One thing I can does NOT work is pretending that everything is fine. Keep an open dialogue with your kiddo as they get older about their grandma and how they feel spending time with her. I say this as someone who had horrible, damaged grandparents, but no one was allowed to admit aloud that they were horrible. My parents limited the time they got access to me but it was still extremely confusing, and my presence was used as kind of a bartering chip to keep the peace. You don’t need to proactively ‘yank away’ the relationship, but you can really closely monitor it.
Anon
I have a “we love Nana and Papa very much, but don’t agree with their views some of the time” approach. My parents and kids have a good relationship, and it adds value to my children’s lives.
My parents are racist, my mom has some undertreated mental illness, and my dad would rather shoot himself in the foot than for one second consider that I might be right about something if we disagree (I have a Ph.D. for what it’s worth but even in my field he’s unwilling to cede any ground.) They’re also really loving to my kids, they plan fun events for our visits, and I’ve been able to see my parents in a new light to some degree which is helpful to me. Careful prepping of the kids and willingness to speak up when necessary have been my most useful tools. For instance, if my mom said some kind of nonsense about Sharia law in front of my kids, I’d say, “Wow, that’s not a real thing. That is anti-Muslim propaganda and it’s unacceptable.” If she dug in, I’d be prepared to either end the conversation (“We aren’t going to agree on this, and it’s not something that we’re talking about in front of the kids”) or up and leave (the room, the house, whatever) as needed. I only visit them with my own car now for that reason.
Good luck. IME you can’t really change your parents but you can certainly work to raise anti-racist children.
Anonymous
Lots of interesting threads regarding burn out in recent weeks. While I’m fortunate not to feel fully burnt out, I was wondering if there comes an age where work becomes just about money? I don’t hate my work, but now nearing 40 I am MUCH more focused on whether I’m getting a raise, my savings rate, if the 401k is ok etc. It’s not about financial pressure either. Compare this to me at age 25 or 30 (graduated law school at 25) when I couldn’t have told you if I got paid or not and would’ve worked for free at biglaw no less (not in biglaw now). The first 4-5 years were so exciting — every depo and brief were an opportunity and so exciting because they were new. Even up until age 33 around 8 years out of school, I had some excitement. Now it’s like — ok I’ll go sit in a conference room in Tulsa for 2 days, cool. Is this natural progression or are there people who are 15 years into their career and still excited? I feel my dr friends still have excitement though part of me wonders if that’s because their attending careers start about 5ish years later.
January
I’m surprised you say this about your doctor friends – my doctor friends seem as nonplussed as my lawyer friends.
Anonymous
So make a change. Plenty of other lawyer jobs.
Anon
I think this is a natural result of getting older for many people. Not saying this is you but … When I was in my late 20s and early 30s, my life basically revolved around work. Most of my friends were also in BigLaw, with a few that had recently moved on from that stage; I didn’t have kids; I was used to my life being focused on one thing (school previously) so didn’t care so much that I didn’t have hobbies; etc. Now, in my mid-30s, I want a different life that has some balance. Work is fine, but not super exciting. And even the “exciting” things at work are not that exciting because I’ve done them all before many times. But I was willing to take this job because I wanted time for friends, to have hobbies, and to build a family. My life is a whole is so much better than it was 8 years ago, largely because I’ve learned that there is more to life than work and school.
Two Cents
I think it’s okay to view your job as a career and not a calling. As a fellow attorney, I’m intellectually interested in the work that I do and I guess there’s some “excitement” to wins and advancement, but I’m mostly here because this is the most interesting way that I can pass the workday hours to earn a paycheck. In the vein of you can’t have it all at once, but you can ultimately have it all, I would seek excitement beyond your job at this life stage and you can always reevaluate for when a job change matches your need for excitement, financial goals, work-life balance, or other values.
Anon 3
There’s a lot of posts about relationships and cheating today so I figure this may be of interest. Does anyone have experience with open relationships/marriages and polygamy? I’m not talking sister wife scenario but a truly open relationship where both the man and woman can meet and sleep with other people. It’s something I’m considering and it seems to be more and more common where I live.
Anonymous
Ugh I hate it. Why spend your whole life dating. I think it’s always a disaster.
Anon 3
Because you can’t get all of your needs fulfilled by one person so why force yourself to remain in a traditional marriage. Or maybe that’s just me. Dating is only terrible when you’re trying to find “the one”.
Anonymous
Consider posting on the Ask A Manager weekend thread on Saturday. I’ve seen discussions about this topic over there.
Anon 3
I’m confused. Ask a manager about open relationships? Did you mean to reply to the post about burnout?
anon
The weekend open thread is open to any topics, and relationships are frequently discussed.
Anon
I’m not the 12:07 Anon, but Saturday is the “open” thread that’s not work related and always worth reading. There are a number of poly folks who post.
I’d also check out Captain Awkward.
Equestrian attorney
Ask a Manager has a free-for-all weekend thread. There have been several discussions of this topic on those.
Anon 3
Ohhh how have I never seen these Saturday posts!
Vj
Years ago I was introduced to a circle of married swingers (with children). They were all acting and preaching as they had found the key to long and happy marriages. ALL of these couples are today divorced. Of course, this is an anecdotal experience but it certainly gave me the answer.
Anon
Same with the people I know/knew. I tried dating one of the men post breakup. That was a big no for me.
Anonymous
Yes, I think it can be a “well it’s this or break up” last resort option that squeezes a little more time out of a dying relationship.
Ethical Nonmonogamy
While many here seem very judgmental about nonmonogamy, please know that ethical nonmonogamy is a valid and often very successful relationship model. Check out the book More Than Two by Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert (www.morethantwo.com) or the Poly land blog (www.poly.land). Monogamous relationships go poorly and sometimes end, just as nonmonogamous ones do. Conversely, many nonmonogamous relationships work very well. There are distinctions between open relationships, swinging, and ethical nonmonogamy. I encourage those posting on this topic to educate yourself.
Anon
Who here is judgmental about non-monogamy? People are judgy about cheating/deception, which is very different than agreed upon non-monogamy.
Anon
+1
Anonymous
This is so countercultural and requires so much work that I seriously doubt many people just stumble into a healthy poly relationship (of whatever variety).
Anon
I don’t know if this is a factor for you, but I don’t see how it works with kids. I feel like once your kids get to be a certain age, they’re going to know their parents are sleeping with other people and it’s going to make life really uncomfortable and difficult for them.
S
I’m not saying it could never work, but I’ve known a LOT of poly people and it always seemed superficially ‘enlightened’ but also deeply unhealthy, like there was a ton of resentment and jealousy simmering just below the surface that they weren’t allowed to express because it would put a damper on the other person’s fun.
Anon 3
I’ve always heard the exact opposite. If you are going to enter a poly relationship you communicate more with your partner to address feelings of jealousy, etc.
anon
Ehhh… that’s what you *must* have to make it work effectively but that just doesn’t always happen…. that’s what S is saying. I think a lot of bad outcomes are paved with good intentions here.
Anonymous
At what age did you start letting your kids stay home alone in evenings (not overnight) vs getting a sitter?
I know it’s kid-dependent, but I was talking to my neighbor this weekend (kids are 13 and 11) about maybe them doing some mother’s helpering over the summer and she basically laughed and said they still have a sitter. I assumed she meant for like overnights or weekends away but she meant for dinner/date nights. Like 6-11pm.
I know “times are different”. But at 13 I was babysitting until 9:30pm for my neighbor. At 11 I was mother’s helpering and definitely staying home alone for a few hours (not daily but like, while my mom went to the grocery store or to a siblings sport game). And in late middle school I absolutely came home after school to an empty house, did my homework and had a snack until my mom came home around five whenever I didn’t have an afterschool activity.
Is this just now how things are now?
Falstaff
I don’t know, but when I was 11, I spent the summer babysitting two kids 40 hours a week. (For $3 an hour!) Getting a babysitter for preteens sounds crazy to me.
Anon
Yeah, it is crazy. It’s the new normal but it’s weird and infantilizing and not based in evidence.
Inspired by Hermione
I was probably 11-12? Don’t quite remember but I was definitely babysitting at night by the time I was 13-14.
Unrelated but this reminded me of a funny story (now…): One time when I was probably in…8th grade (?) I was babysitting for an older kid and the parents came home in a cab at like midnight because they weren’t sober enough to drive. They were supposed to be my ride home and were supposed to have been home by 10. They wanted me to take the cab and I was NOT having it so I called my mom and had her come get me. For reference, we were in the suburbs and cabs were not a thing I understood or was comfortable with. They came over to apologize the next day, paid me triple, and it was the last time I sat for them (their choice, not mine).
Anon
They are plenty old to handle it on their own (plenty!) but I do see how the bedtime hour could require supervision a bit longer than the after school hours. It is obviously kid dependent but with all the transitions built into the 6 to 11 pm hours, a supervisor seems like a good call until 12ish.
Anon
Kat–echoing another poster today–what put this in mod? Plenty of my other posts this morning are not going into mod (before and after this one) so I don’t think it’s my IP or username.
Anon
Once my daughter was in sixth grade, so around 12, she could stay home alone with her little brother after school for a couple of hours or for an early date night for us. We wouldn’t have done it at that age if we were out really late because she was too worried. But by the time she was 13 it was fine.
She has done Mother’s helper work since about the same age. She has always liked babies so that helped. My son, on the other hand, would probably have needed a babysitter till a later age if his big sister weren’t around, because he was less mature at the same ages, which I think is a typical boy pattern.
nuqotw
At 13 I had 11 and 6 year old sisters. My parents might not have gotten a sitter to run errands during the day, but I think that was the tail-end of getting a sitter if they wanted to go out at night. Their rationale was that it helped them be sure that they could have the evening to themselves without anyone calling the restaurant to get a sibling disagreement adjudicated.
Vicky Austin
Oh man, the calls we made to my parents sometimes…
OP – I think most people in not-extenuating circumstances would still probably find it a bit much to have a babysitter for kids who are 13 and 11. Maybe something else is going on, or Mom is just overprotective.
lsw
Our daughter (just turned 13 a week ago) watches our son (2.5) for the night if we’ve already put him down for bed. She could probably put him to bed, too, but it’s easy enough to plan a night out that starts at 8 pm.
We give her freedom to take short walks in our neighborhood – to the bakery or whatever – and have since she was about 10. We live in a walkable city. She hasn’t taken the mass transit system solo yet, but we rarely use it (just buses).
She has also been home alone after school for the last couple of years – about 1.5 or 2 hours between when her bus arrives and when I get home. She has a cell phone, probably earlier than I might have liked, which her mom got her to ease coordination of pick up on days when her mom has her. So she can easily call or text us in case of an emergency.
I definitely did think when she was 11 – wow, how was I watching kids at that age?? I guess the answer is that my mom was always close by.
Anonymous
Following with interest… When we were acting in loco parentis with my nephew, we followed the local law of not letting the child be unsupervised until age 12. I did and still feel that this cut off is way too high for many children. I would have left him alone much earlier, if I had been the actual parent. Being able to regulate yourself is one of the most important life skills.
I work in k-12 education and I think we are doing children no favors with the high degrees of supervision in the name of “safety.” IMO, it is far more dangerous to raise children who we don’t trust to not burn the house down than it is to give them a long leash. I know I might get internet-screamed at for this, but oh well. I think that we will pay a price for insisting that 10, 11, 12, 13 year olds can’t take care of themselves. One day, they won’t.
Anonymous
I’ve been self-supporting since I was 14, so to me a 13 year old can have the maturity to do a lot of things, including not having a sitter. For me, I’d start by leaving the kids alone for a short time in the afternoon, gradually increasing the time away and into the night until they were comfortable and trustworthy. My primary concern is to make sure they aren’t afraid. With things like Face Time, I’d be a lot more comfortable now then people should have been back then!
Cat
Around age 11-12 I would be left alone at home. By 12-13 I was routinely babysitting other families’ kids at night.
Anonymous
I think I was 10 when I stayed home alone during the summer and babysat my toddler brother all day. I was 11 or 12 when I started getting off the bus by myself and spending a couple of hours after school alone. I have a 3y.o. daughter now and the idea of her being at home alone all day as a 10y.o. sounds crazy to me.
Anon
Oh Mother Part 2
My mother is generally a good person. She is not supportive of me, and dislikes the fact that I work while raising our family. She loves my husband, and respects his opinion much more than mine.
Imposter syndrome is something I work hard to overcome. I no longer speak with my mother about my career, because she is not supportive and dismissive of what I do. I try and avoid topics that draw conflicts when I speak with her.
Yesterday we had a conversation that really shook me. While my husband was discussing something that a local teen had done (started an awareness day for a genetic condition), and said something along the effect that it was probably to build a college application, my mother said that I had done that as well, but then said that I had actually not done it but lied about it. When I asked what she was talking about, she said I had lied about volunteering for an organization in high school. It’s such a crazy lie — I never even considered either volunteering there or lying about it, it was not anything I ever did, and when I pressed her about it –she said she had seen it on some application I had done. I just never did this.
This was a crazy lie to say about me, and I didn’t let it go. She never admitted that she was lying, just kept saying that I “knew what I did” and giving me that side eye.
We got through the rest of the day. My husband said that he knows my mom made this up and just to let it go. My sister said the same.
I’m just shook: shook that she made up this crazy lie about me, and shook that she continued to lie about it when it was apparent that she had made it up. I’m most shook that when my husband was saying something he disliked about a person, my mom’s response was to tell him that I was just like that person – but actually, worse.
Internet people, I know imposter syndrome is real. I just am sitting here, not really working, just overwhelmed that my mom did this. My mom said this thing to my husband about it, in front of me and my sister — with the specific tone and intent to draw his criticism to me, to tell him that I am this awful person that he should not respect. I pushed back, and I’m glad I did, but I can’t even function just thinking about how my mom treated me and how she thinks about me.
Tell me there’s a book or a group or a podcast or a Philadelphia area therapist who can help me?
Senior Attorney
Why do you even see this horrible person?
Hugs to you and yes, get yourself to therapy posthaste. Psychology Today dot com has a good therapist finder search engine. It takes a little patience but it’s worth it. Good luck!!
Anon
Things like this were one of the first symptoms of my grandmother’s dementia. People think of dementia as forgetting things, but you can also invent false memories and there’s a tendency for people who have it to be really hostile and accusatory to those closest to them. I would just try to let it go. Maybe she’s losing her mind, maybe she’s not, but either way there’s not much you can do about it. (And why was your husband judging the local teen so harshly? Even if the awareness campaign was done primarily for a college application, it still seems like a good thing to do and doesn’t make the organizer a bad person. There’s a lot of pressure on kids these days with their college apps!)
BabyAssociate
+1 Alzheimer’s/dementia was my first thought as well, maybe she needs help. Regardless though, sorry this happened to you.
Anonymous
Thanks. She is in her eighties, and I think that may be something to explore.
By the way, I agree with you about the teen!
Anon
Ahhh – she is in her eighties, and this may be worth exploring. She is not supportive, but she’s not been downright dismissive in a long time — and never about me to my husband. I will look into this.
(And I agree with you about the teen!)
Anon
I am so sorry your mother is treating you like this. Get yourself to a therapist ASAP. I only have any semblance of a relationship with my mother because of the (really tough) work I did with a therapist as a young adult (mid 20s). Work towards how to feel better despite whatever your mom is doing and not towards having a good relationship with her. I basically cut my mom out until I was strong enough to emotionally handle the variety of cr*p that she may throw at me. 12+ years later, we have a very good “working” relationship. I have an intuitive feel for when to pull back to avoid the worst of her ire and also am much better at shrugging off insensitive or mean comments or conversational topics. I am so sorry, though. It really hurts and you have no reason to spend time with someone who makes you feel this way.
Anon
Hug. My family does this to me, too. (I have an amazing memory, a lot of records, and can cross-examine, so it blunts this crap, but it is brutal.)
This is her, not you. This is about her putting you down to make herself feel better about her sad life.
It sucks so, so hard.
Anon
Yes if she’s in her eighties then dementia definitely….and good that you’re sister and husband are supportive- sounds like no one is really listening to her and knows the claims are false. Sounds like you have a good hubby and you said she respects him….are you high achieving? I found in my family that women of a certain generation just couldn’t believe that women my age could have great careers, be very smart, high income, etc….they wouldn’t believe things I said but when my husband spoke they would listen and ask him for advice but dismiss me…it’s her own inadequacies coming out. Let it go you’re so much smarter and better….
anon
One of my old friends is becoming a trauma surgeon and joining the Army. He also lives in hawaii and goes sky diving on weekends and just got his pilot’s license. I saw this on FB this morning and have been thinking about how I am just not living my best life. Obviously every individual choice he’s made isn’t for me, but I feel like there’s something missing in my life. Not just prompted by facebook, the realization was just spawned by that.
I need a change but I’m not sure what. How would you go about figuring this out? What questions would you ask yourself?
Anon
Just remember that social media is a highlight reel and every situation has downsides. I realized this when we were potentially relocating to Hawaii (which we had visited many times and loved) for my husband’s job. At first it was just like “OMG we’re moving to paradise!!!’ and then I started actually doing the research you need to do for a relocation and I realized that real estate is insanely expensive, all of our friends and family would be so far away, the schools are terrible, there were basically no job opportunities for me, my dermatologist was really worried about the skin cancer risk for fair-skinned me, etc. etc. The reality is so, so different than the fantasy. Now we live in the most boring town in the Midwest and I’m sure none of my social media friends think I have an enviable life but it is MY best life – we have fulfilling careers that don’t work us to death, we can afford a really nice house and lifestyle here, we have lots of time to spend with our kids who attend awesome public schools within walking distance of our house, etc.
Anonymous
I keep a Pinterest vision board so that I can dream freely and then remember to do the things I’ve dreamed of. I know, having this type of Pinterest is corny, but it helps me stay true to my heart and dreams.
CPA Lady
Maybe try out a few hobbies? Do some meetup groups in your town?
What would you be interested in trying– Camping? Travel? Baking? Canoeing? Square dancing? Tennis lessons? Making model airplanes? Restoring antique furniture? Collecting dahlias? Volunteering at the food bank? Playing the trumpet?
What would you do if you won the lotto?
Have you read The Happiness Project? One thing I took away from her blog, years ago, that it’s okay to be yourself. So your exciting and fulfilling life isn’t necessarily going to look like someone else’s.
What things really stress you out– heat? cold? large crowds? staying up too late? <— these things may help narrow down your hobbies to try.
How detailed oriented are you? If you hate nitpicky details, bonsai tree growing is probably not for you.
Have you done all the local tourism in your area? Gone to the famous places and done the cool stuff there?
Just a few ideas to get you started. I turned over a new leaf with my mental health last year and have been exploring hobbies a lot since then. It's been really fun and fulfilling.
anon
I just deactivated my FB account this morning, partly for this reason. Mostly because I realize there are some people that I know professionally and socially that I like so much better in person than I do on social media. I also feel like I’m not living my best life because my eyes are glued to facebook most mornings and evenings as I mindlessly scroll and life is just passing me by.
eertmeert
Look at small changes or adjustments you can make this week, so that you start feeling better about your situation. Plan your next vacation, sign up for a class, try a new restaurant you’ve always meant to go to, pick up a new recipe, pick up flowers on your way home to brighten up your living space, uninstall facebook/instagram on your phone and don’t check it often from your computer.
Longer term, what do you feel is missing from your life? What are you happy with, what do you see as irreplaceable? Find an anchor, and let the rest of the change you want to see flow from there. Your friend’s anchor seems to be excitement, adrenaline rushes and/or freedom. That’s cool – but it that yours? If yes, awesome, start there. Go to a local amusement park, get a rush from the scariest rides. Sign up for a helicopter ride. Etc.
Just add something new to your routine and go from there.
Pretty Primadonna
I would make a list of all the things I have wanted to do and/or am drawn to and start doing them. They don’t have to be major. Taking a solo trip. Getting a henna tattoo. Going on a hot air balloon ride. I think once you start getting the ball rolling on the small things, you will start dreaming of larger or more complex things. Live!
Anon
+1. I did this and it’s been great.
Anonymous
There’s an app I like called “level up life.” It feels good to enter all the stuff you’ve already done, and it has good ideas for what you might make more time for in the future.
Anonymous
Has anyone tried Infinite Style (Ann Taylor)? I’m giving it a try and my first shipment is on its way. I feel a little weird about doing it because the cost is almost as much as just buying 3 items on sale, but I hate constantly going through my closet and donating things so I’m giving it a try. Anyone else have experience doing it? I’ve done RTR Unlimited before and imaged it would be similar. I didn’t do RTR this time because I really only need work clothes and I found that the RTR options were a little too dressy for my very business casual office.