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Updated: Aug 11, 2020 387 Comments · by

Wednesday’s Workwear Report: Maxi Shirtdress

The Personal Shopper (TPS) |

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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

I love this dress for a casual office or a dressed-up WFH look.

Maxi dresses can sometimes come off looking a bit like you’ve wandered out of the house in a nightgown, but this belted shirtdress looks intentional and pulled-together. I love the color palette and the side vents that will make it easier to move around in.

The dress is $119.95 full price at Eloquii and available in sizes 14–28. Right now you can get it for only $49 with code YESPLEASE. Maxi Shirtdress

Two options for straight sizes are this lime floral print from French Connection (on sale for $130) and this navy floral from Thakoon (on sale for $90). 

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Sales of note for 9.30.24

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Ellen

    Elizabeth, this looks like a great shirt-dress for lounging about the apartment. I looked at the pics, but need some advice before I get for Grandma Trudy. How is it for allowing you to get it out of the way and into the toilet, b/c it seems like it is complicated (even tho I see the slits) and I worry for her it could get in the way if she is in a hurry b/c of IBS or for other people if they have issues? The alternative Grandma now uses is a “boyfreind shirt”for a super long size boyfriend (4XL), even tho she has not even had a boyfreind for 60 years!

  2. Building a house

    Does anyone have advice about the process of building a cottage from scratch, or great blogs or books to read? I am accelerating my long-held dream of building a small cottage in New England (because, Quarantine) and have never approached this type of project, but am happy to dig in and learn and read!
    I care about building something small (between 600 and 1200 ft), efficient/green where possible, 4-season, and avoid big expenses and unnecessary high-end finishes where possible.

    • Cb

      So I’ve become obsessed with these Danish prefab cottages, which look gorgeous and are sustainable. Manta North is the company, but if you follow them on Instagram, you’ll get ads for loads of different companies (the insta algorithim definitely has me pegged). I’d like the two-bedroom for fulltime living if I could find a plot of land/mortgage lender.

    • Anon

      Check with your local extension service. Some offer owner-builder workshops that teach laypeople how to manage the design-build process. It was definitely a thing in the late 70’s-80’s but I believe a few still teach it.

    • Anon

      You should look into the tiny house movement. That’s where all the most current DIY is. I think there is also a Netflix show but I don’t know if it’s focused on construction.

      • Building a house

        I’ve read a bit about tiny houses, but I’m not interested in building one due to accessibility and other considerations (and many HOA covenants prohibit them). The idea of DIY is interesting, but due to time constraints, I will likely have a mix that leans more toward contractors.

        • Anon

          I’m confused – isn’t a 655-square-foot cottage a tiny house? I know it’s really just a trendy new name more than anything, but why would one not be allowed while a cottage is? In any case, I know that you don’t want unnecessary high-end finishes and some tiny house people are all about that.

          • Anon

            Because in many cases, “tiny house” is rich-people euphemism for “trailer”.

          • Anon

            No, 655 square feet is much larger than a tiny house. Tiny houses are a couple hundred square feet at most, and often much closer to trailer, shed, or single room size (instead of 1 bed apartment size).

          • Building a house

            I may be confused too actually :) I know there’s a buzzword “tiny house” which I associate with a particular kind of trailer-like and ultra-small (<200 sq feet) dwelling – and a ladder up to a loft or some other workaround, but perhaps I'm missing a trove of actual-houses-that-are-small information.

          • Anon

            Actually, there are a lot of types of tiny houses. Some are trailers or tiny little sheds, but a lot are just…very small houses, still on foundations and with plumbing and all. OP, I encourage you to check it out since some of the building information may be very helpful!

          • Building a house

            Will do & thanks for the clarification. Even if the size is smaller than I’m aiming for, it sounds like I can get value out of understanding the process and methods of the real house ones you’re describing. Blog references welcome.

    • Anon

      There was a great article that just came out in Outside magazine online about two friends who decided to build an off-grid cabin in the Pacific Northwest. I really, really recommend you read it before investing a lot of money into land or building materials.

    • anon

      This wouldn’t be even close to a how-to guide, but there was an article in Outside about two guys who did this together recently. Good read – recommend. Search “Outside we quit our jobs to build a cabin”.

    • pugsnbourbon

      No advice but this sounds amazing. Please update us as the project progresses!

      • Building a house

        Thanks, will do! I’m thinking of blogging it because I’ve had such a hard time finding blogs where people get into a project like this in this way (without a developer-provided set of options, not DIY, from literal ground up, going into all the details that a noob like me doesn’t know about).

    • Ribena

      Do you watch the show Grand Designs? It might give you inspiration and also show what not to do…

    • Building a house

      I’m starting that Outside article you’ve all referenced, thanks! & haven’t checked out Grand Designs but definitely will now.

    • Anon

      There is a YouTube show called “My Self Reliance.” The show is mostly silent and it is a guy and his dog building a cabin from scratch. In the last 10 minutes or so he talks about some of what he did in that episode. It’s pretty neat to watch.

    • lydia

      Eva Chen (Lucky magazine, Teen Vogue, now Insta) is renovating a cottage now, but maybe also had it built from scratch? I’d check out her insta!

    • Building a house

      Thanks everyone for the comments. These are all sources I wasn’t already looking at.
      And on prefab – I see it is not like my pre-existing beliefs about what that would look like!

    • Cabin in the mountains

      I had a cabin built from scratch up north in the state I live in on some property I own. I first met with an architect to come up with a design. I spent a lot of time looking at cabin and house floor plans online to have an idea of what I liked. Since it is custom, it can be anything you want, so it does not have to be cookie cutter or high end finishes. In fact, I went with some low end stuff that I knew I could replace easily enough in later years (appliances, counters, rugs in bedrooms, etc.). I put money into the major things that were a priority to me: big fireplace, big deck, air conditioning). I then used a GC (interviewed 3, visited their current sites to see their work). A good GC makes all the difference especially if you can’t be there all the time (my cabin is a few hours away).

      I did a “construction/building loan to mortgage” loan for financing, through my regular bank. The GC build quote was about 25% less than the total loan amount, which was fine, but what I did not realize was that the inevitable change orders could not be financed through this loan. The bank said they have to stick to the build quote and could not change that. That meant that I had to finance the change orders out of my own savings. I certainly expected to have change orders (everyone always says to expect that) but I did not expect to have to finance it out of my savings.

      The green aspect can be expensive and was not as much a priority for me, but I did go with a green septic system. There was also things I did to keep maintenance to a minimum, since I would not be there full time and did not want to spend my time there doing that type of stuff, such as Trex decking and hardie board shingles and siding, which are both almost no maintence.

      • Building a house

        Thanks for the very helpful comment. If you liked your architect, would you be willing to recommend? If it would out you to post here you could use my burner on google, which is now dontspamthecabin
        ;)

  3. ANON

    This is so pretty!

    It makes me think of this pretty maxi skirt I have (link in reply). Where do you wear stuff like this, and with what on top? It always feels very formal to me.

      • Anonymous

        How pretty! I would do a knit tank top or short sleeve knit top and sandals.

      • Marie

        That is so pretty. I agree with the comment that a fitted solid white (or even black if you wanted to do a color contrast) tank or t-shirt would look great with this skirt. I would wear this to a daytime event, like a graduation, shower, or engagement party (sadly not a lot of those to come by these days).

    • Cb

      That’s lovely, but it is quite Carolina Herrera formal. I think you wear it with a structured white top and embrace the formality.

        • Anonymous

          I’d wear it with a white t shirt or tank to brunch or baby bridal showers

        • The original Scarlett

          I’m a big lover of maxi dresses and skirts – personally I wear them everywhere in the summer – I’d style w sandals, a t-shirt and denim jacket. I dunno, in before times I’d have worn that to brunch, errands, wine tasting, dinner, friends houses. I can also trend dressier/more dramatic in my everyday clothes than most, so ymmv, but my perspective is wear the fun pretty clothes!

          • Sloan Sabbith

            I think the jean jacket is important here. It will dress it down a lot. Without it, I see it as baby shower/bridal shower/wine tasting. With a jean jacket, though, I could see it at a farmers market, brunch, summer lunch, happy hour, etc.

            I’d do a light wash denim jacket, white t-shirt, and black flat sandals.

      • Maudie Atkinson

        The fact that it’s cotton and not, say, taffeta, means that you could dress it down quite effectively, though.

    • Amber

      Oh that is gorgeous! I would wear something simple on top so that the focus is on the skirt, which I love!

    • Amber

      Aw – the skirt is out of stock! Please post back if you find out it is back in stock! :)

    • Anon

      This looks like a hostess skirt that women wore to parties in their homes in the 60s and maybe 70s. I would wear it for the same purpose if I were ever hosting a party. Due to the length I wouldn’t wear it to an outdoor event (it would get dirty etc)

    • Cat

      I’d wear a nice navy tshirt and pretty sandals for an outside dinner date :)

    • cookie dough

      Love this. I’d pair with a chambray top, metallic flats, dangly earrings, and clutch. Brunch is about the most formal thing I do these days, so I’d wear it there!

    • Airplane.

      With a white crochet crop top or a free people or anthro brami (bralette+cami?) at a fabulous champagne brunch on a rooftop.

  4. Just wow

    We’ve officially reached the “mumus on Corp or e t t e” stage of the pandemic.

    YAY!

    • Anon

      Lol I was trying to find the right word for this and you hit the nail on the head. Mumus but make it professional.

    • Anon

      Lol. This looks like the dresses my elementary school teacher wore on the 90s. I’ll pass.

    • Anon

      I’ve been wondering when we’d get here :) Seeing suits and heels has just felt strange to me the longer we’re all teleworking.

      • Cat

        same! I’m actually in the market for storage solutions – all of my workwear has dusty shoulders thanks to being put on hiatus. Anyone have some good, cost-effective solution to recommend for hanging clothes?

        • Eeertmeert

          I take a armload of clothing, still on hangers, then fold in half or tri fold and lay into plastic storage bin. I do the same for another armload on top of that, usually 2 – 3 of these to 1 tub. When it is time to bring the items back into wardrobe just unpack and hang. There aren’t creases, or if there are any they ease themselves out or I go after with a steamer.

    • Anon

      This made me think of the costumes we had to wear in elementary school for “colonial day” or field trips to prairie town reenactments.

    • Coach Laura

      Pass here too. I’m all for comfy maxi dresses or ponte dresses or t-shirt dresses to WFH. But this is weirdly shaped and hangs stiffly, added to that the slits makes it less useful for walking around and bending to pick up little kids and dogs.

      • Sloan Sabbith

        Yeah, this really looks like something my grandma would have worn in the 50s or something an Amish woman would wear around the house.

    • Anon

      Hah! This looks SO much like the cotton house dresses my grandma, born in 1900, wore, except that hers hit just below the knee.

    • Anon

      Hah! This looks SO much like the cotton house dresses my grandma, born in 1900, wore, except that hers hit just below the knee.

  5. Fallen

    I know this has been asked before, but I can’t find the threads. What are your favorite masks (for kids and adults)? Husband bought us all neck gaiters but with new research coming out that they aren’t great I am seeking to replace

    • A.

      I like the often-recommended-around-here Johnny Was silk masks. Husband and I also both like the Brooks Brothers ones.

      For kids, I’ve got a selection from Etsy for my 7-year-old, Old Navy kids’ masks for my 5-year-old, and Target for my 10-year-old. I’d love to find a lighter weight alternative for the 5-year-old — she’s really muffled in the Old Navy masks.

      I have some kids’ and adults’ Athleta ones on order that won’t come forever.

      Corollary question: how many masks does each adult and child (attending in-person school for now) need, do you think?

      • Anon

        I have about 15 for my toddler and 10 for me and it doesn’t feel like enough (we do laundry every ~3 days with masks being the limiting factor). Kid goes through multiple masks per day at daycare, and I usually use two per day since I like to wear a separate one for drop off and pickup. I use a third one if I need to run an indoor errand (rare). Plus we seem to be constantly losing them, just like socks. I’m buying many more masks.

        • Cat

          wow that’s a lot of masks to go through! We wear ours off and on for a few weeks before washing them, but that’s because we do one main shop day a week and then are just at home, so they air out and anything on them dies off before we touch them again.

          If we needed a mask daily, I’d have one mask per day of the week.

      • anon.

        For the five year old – Look at CubCoats. My kid loves them and they fit and stay on. He doesn’t tug at them.

    • MJ

      I really like the etsy ones from a seller named redbrickquilting. She uses fat elastic which is way more comfortable.

    • Anon

      I have tried so many and while I love my Johnny Was for short term wear and looking pretty, the most breathable, but effective and comfortable I have found are from PetSmart of all places. Their house brand “TopPaw” that makes leashes, collars, beds, bandannas and dog clothes, made a line of human masks for the pandemic. They have plain black, light gray with white swirl, blue with a cactus print and tan with dogs on it. The last one is usually sold out. They run $2.99 a piece to $5.99 a piece depending on which store. They shrink a little if you machine dry them but they still fit my husband’s larger face and my smaller face. They are by far my favorite and I plan on going there to buy more this week. They are in-store only but they have order online / curbside pick up as an option.

      • Silly Valley

        Counterpoint: I expected the Boden masks to be woven, but they’re knit, and as such way too heavy-feeling and stick to my face in an unpleasant way. And of the three pack I got one bright orange and one bright orange print.

    • Senior Attorney

      My husband and I have been sharing a bunch of Old Navy masks and we like them fine. The Johnny Was masks are still our faves, though.

      • Anon

        I also love the Old Navy masks. Work for my large-ish face, kid size works for my young kids, husband likes them too. Better for me than more expensive ones that I tried, and the price is great to stock up.

    • Anon

      I bought a pack of those disposable blue medical masks and we have been wearing those pretty much exclusively. I like the wire that bends over the bridge of the nose because it’s less likely to fog my glasses.

      I do reuse them. Pretty much anywhere that I go that I need a mask, I go in my car, so I just leave one there. It gets nice and hot in my parked car so theoretically it would quickly kill anything lingering on the mask.

      • Anon

        It takes temperatures around 150-170F to kill many viruses. Your car may not get that hot. It can be dangerously hot to a human/animal without killing the virus at all.

          • Anon

            Ok fine, but then it’s time that’s killing the virus, not heat. And you saying the car gets hot enough to kill the virus “quickly” might convince someone else of that fact and lead to them reusing a dirty mask.

        • Anon

          Not the same poster, but I’m the inside of my car might reach that temp since its 105 outside.

    • New Here

      We bought some at Costco – their 32 Degrees athletic brand. They are single layer, so thin, but definitely the most comfortable ones we have. Very breathable and comfortable here in the SEUS heat and humidity.

      I also like our Old Navy ones.

    • Hollis

      For myself, I love the ones I bought from Swaddledesigns, which is a baby blanket store. The 3 layer chambray ones are the most comfortable ones that I own and I can wear them all day, but they fit on the large/loose side. If you want something more fitted, my kids like the ones from OtiliaBoutique at etsy so i’ve bought several of them – they are the pleated style and the material she uses for the ears are nice and stretchy. i’ve also bought quick-dry, more sporty looking ones for my son from luckyplanetUS at etsy – they are made from a thin wetsuit material and made in Korea.

      • Shananana

        seconding the chambray masks from swaddle designs. Because they are seamed under the chin they don’t ride up on my face (my biggest issue with the disposables, in 5 minutes they are touching my bottom lashes!) I just bought a bunch more since they are on sale. I bought the smaller size and washed and dried them and they fit less loosely now.

  6. Fallen

    I know this has been asked before, but I can’t find the threads. What are your favorite masks (for kids and adults)? Husband bought us all neck gaiters but with new research coming out that they aren’t great I am seeking to replace

    • Anonymous

      Hatley has super cute ones for kids. Cute factor was key to my kids wanting to wear them. Though, in fairness I’m tempted to order the shark one for the days I am required to go into the office. The kids sizes look pretty sold out right now but hopefully they will restock. Womens versions give you some idea of what they used to have in kids.

    • Chocolate is My Middle Name

      All of the nice colors and designs are sold out, but I really like: https://www.shopheart.org/catalogsearch/result/?q=mask they have a pocket for filters.

      https://www.wearfigs.com/pages/shop-products/figs-face-mask-marine?_pos=2&_sid=65c429f3f&_ss=r are very wearable, come in unisex colors and have a few filters in each package.

      These are also very wearable, and come in 5 packs and lots of colors. Watch the ship dates, I ordered early on and waited and waited. https://www.jaanuu.com/face-masks?color=polished-pebble&size=adult

    • Anonymous

      My elementary schooler and I both love our Jannuu masks. I also like the ones from BlaqPacks, but they’re lined with flannel, so not great for summer.

    • Anon

      Thank you for replacing your neck gaiters! We need more people who are following the evidence base and trying to do their very best.

    • Anon

      Cincinnati Zoo has really cute animal masks and they’re one of the only places I’ve found that sells a toddler size in addition to a youth size. They’re $$$$ (almost $20 each!) but they’re our favorite. We also got some from Etsy shop WestCoastClearance. The toddler size is very snug on my (large) 2 year old – it looks painful to me but she doesn’t seem to mind and it’s probably better safety wise to have a very snug fit? I ordered a bunch from Old Navy but we haven’t gotten them yet.

  7. Cb

    I have been having terrible restless leg which is inteferring with my sleep, and my husband’s. I’ve resorted to falling asleep with my knees up to my chest and my feet pushed into the wall to stop the kicking. Any recommendations? I’m active – cycling, yoga, and walking, drink lots of water, etc. It did go when I was on holiday last week but came back with a vengeance last night, so perhaps something about how I’m sitting at my desk?

    • Anonymous

      How are your electrolytes? If you are very active, make sure you are getting enough potassium and magnesium. My DH has a similar issue and has to drink coconut water instead of regular water on very active days. Bananas are another good source.

      • Cb

        I don’t think I’d class myself as very active, probably 60-90 minutes of some sort of movement a day, but much of that involves strolling alongside a toddler, and live in a cool climate, so I’m likely not getting dehydrated, but good call on the electrolytes, I’ll add in a banana and see if that helps at all.

        • Monday

          I’ve had low-potassium issues a few times, and reading about it I learned that basically no adults actually get the recommended amount of potassium per day. I think it would be more than 10 bananas’ worth! My doctor ordered labs and then was able to advise how much OTC potassium supplement I can take safely. It’s much higher than the recommended dose on the package, because regs force those doses to be super low. I feel so much better taking 4 horse pills a day of it now!

    • nuqotw

      I have had luck with an iron supplement (a small one – a large one can make you pretty sick). My doctor at the time said there’s some evidence iron helps and the alternative was a prescription drug with some side effects I wanted to avoid if possible. I usually have restless legs around the time of my period, so iron makes a lot of sense.

    • Amy

      I had restless leg throughout December and January — it was my very first time experiencing it and it was awful, so I completely sympathize. I wasn’t able to get a doctor’s appointment for weeks so I consulted Dr. Google and learned more about vitamin deficiency. I wasn’t taking any vitamins before (I know, I know), so I started taking a multi-vitamin, magnesium, and iron. Bananas didn’t do the trick for me, sadly. I took the vitamins every day around 4pm on an empty stomach (1-2 hours before dinner) with a small glass of orange juice — I read that Vitamin C helps absorb the iron. After a few days the RLS stopped and I haven’t had a relapse. Eventually I stopped the OJ because it’s so acidic and it’s been fine. Good luck!

    • Anonymous

      I had this problem for years and eventually had to take medicine for it, which has been a LIFE SAFER. I take Auro-Pramipexole which is a mild muscle relaxant. Haven’t had any issues since starting but it does make you drowsy at night.

      • Cb

        Thanks everyone! I do worry my GP practice would laugh at me calling about this in the midst of a pandemic so I’ll try and DIY it and then call if it persists.

        • Anon

          They absolutely would not! This is a terrible attitude to perpetuate, medical problems are still medical problems even when coronavirus exists.

          • NYCer

            +1. Your GP likely is not on the front lines of the pandemic. She/he is literally there for this type of issue.

        • Ribena

          A friend of mine (in our city) has been having remote GP appointments and in person nurse care for a weird insect bite/ blister combination. They want to help!

        • Anon

          I’ve had a lot of medical appointments lately for a newly diagnosed illness (autoimmune) and any appointment that can be done over video is done that way. Most doctors have figured this out really well by now. Don’t hesitate to call! I don’t think there’s any reason they would insist on seeing you in person for restless leg.

        • Curious

          Piling on: My NP was practically begging me to let people know they are still open and can help.

    • Trixie

      I “cured” my restless legs with the following strategies, but of course there are drugs. 1. Drink tonic water as the quinine helps. Gin and lime are optional! 2. Take epsom salts baths–the body absorbing magnesium is good for RLS. 3. Take a calcium, magnesium, and zinc supplement. 4. Take iron supplements. If these strategies had not worked, I would have moved on to medications, but these things worked for me. Good luck!

      • Anon

        Excuse me, this is a matter of opinion I suppose, but in my view, gin and lime are NOT optional. :)

    • Friday, Please

      I have this too. What has helped is Advil on nights it is really bad and taking a magnesium tablet before bed.

  8. Induction Cooktop

    We are renovating our kitchen later this month and everything is decided except the induction cooktop and double wall ovens . Any suggestions for brands or specific models that you’ve loved? We just bought a cheapie Frigidaire range when we moved in and it’s been so inconsistent with the heat that I’m inclined to stay away from Frigidaire.

    • Ellen

      SubZero all the way! If you want quality, that is and are willing to pay for it. Dad bought Mom a deluxe one for her birthday last year and both Mom and Grandma Trudy love it. I am hoping that when I move to a new apartement that Dad buys one for me too! YAY Dad!

    • anon a mouse

      A friend has a Bosch double oven setup and it is really nice. I think the top one can do convection as well. I want one in my someday-remodeled kitchen.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks all! Some of the favs I looked at were Bosch and Electrolux so seems like I might be on the right track.

  9. Pelotonriders

    Re-posting from yesterday :
    With so many of us being Peloton riders (or off the bike users), I created a hashtag for us (#corporette). Feel free to add it to your profile and we can support each other in the classes.

  10. lsw

    Does anyone have suggested resources for learning a little more about interior design? I just want to be more skilled in decorating my own space, not trying to become a professional or anything. Blogs/internet resources or print books welcome! Sadly our local community college’s course on it is canceled for 2020, but maybe there are other online classes you’ve taken and loved? I’m especially interested in learning about furniture arranging.

    • Veronica Mars

      Does anyone have suggested resources for learning a little more about interior design? I just want to be more skilled in decorating my own space, not trying to become a professional or anything. Blogs/internet resources or print books welcome! Sadly our local community college’s course on it is canceled for 2020, but maybe there are other online classes you’ve taken and loved? I’m especially interested in learning about furniture arranging.

    • Anon

      What is your style? If you like a more traditional look, I have been enjoying Laurel Bern interiors (which someone recommended to me here).

    • Anonymous

      There’s going to be a Virtual/video class on Skillpop sometime soon. Sorry I don’t have more details.

    • Anonymous

      I like Emily Henderson’s blog because she goes into detail about the reasoning behind the choice and placement of each piece. She also explains what doesn’t work and why. I don’t actually like her style–I am something of a minimalist, find flea markets a nightmare, and can’t stand any of the MCM and antique pieces Emily favors–but the basic principles and thought processes are useful.

    • The original Scarlett

      Depends on your style, but I really like Emily Henderson design – lots of tutorials on her blog and reasonable resources

      • The original Scarlett

        Why am I going into mod for basic comments when nothing has changed about my profile I use every day?

    • Anon

      It depends on your style but I love the book Cozy Minimalist. It’s very good at step by step decorating – first choose this, then this, then this. It’s also slightly Christian-focused, but you can skip over it easily (this usually bothers me but didn’t in this book because I love the rest of it so much).

    • lsw

      Awesome, thanks for the recommendations! I’d say my style is…eclectic, colorful maximalist? Ha. But I feel like I have a good eye for what I want and can glean inspiration from even minimalist, white wall type places, so I will check these all out.

      • Anonymous

        Emily Henderson should be right up your alley, with the exception of her mountain house.

    • Panda Bear

      I love Laurel Bern’s blog. Her posts are super long and chatty, but she rounds up excellent inspiration images, and has tackled pretty much every topic under the sun.

  11. Anon

    For those of you more familiar with the political process than I am- is the VP pick entirely the decision of the presidential candidate or does the party really make the decision?

    • allie

      What do you mean by “the party”? There is no secret cabal in a smoky room. It’s not just the candidate either – sort of a combination of senior advisors, party “elders” (like Obama), and the candidate. Most heavily the candidate + his senior advisors

      • allie

        To be clear, senior advisors are the higher ups on his the candidates own campaign, not from outside.

      • Anon

        Yep – and a lot of this process is about “vetting” the potential candidates – understanding their policy positions, and particular “issues”. Different party, but if you watch Game Change about the 2008 race, specifically the McCain side it gives a fairly accurate glimpse into the process, with all of it’s pitfalls.

        • allie

          Yeah I think Game Change and the whole McCain-Graham-Palin situation is a good example of how involved the candidate is vs how much say his advisors have too

    • Anon

      The candidate puts together a search committee to interview candidates and make recommendations, and leans heavily on advisors and trusted friends (like Biden reportedly consulted Obama, who isn’t a formal advisor to the campaign) but ultimately the decision is made by the candidate.

    • Z

      There’s a podcast called Presidential from the Washington Post, this week they put out a special episode about Geraldine Ferraro and the process that Mondale used to pick her as his VP.
      Before FDR, it was like you described where the party leaders picked someone and told the presidential candidate AT the convention, usually never having worked with the proposed VP before. FDR was the first president (while running for his 3rd term) to insist on the president choosing the VP. Very interesting stuff that I didn’t know before this morning!

      • Anon

        And in the very beginning of our country, the person who came in second in the presidential race automatically became the VP, even if they were from different parties!

    • anon

      also, if you’re interested in procedure, The West Wing contains a fair bit of procedure, in addition to really 90ies looking fashion and unrealistically well-intentioned players on either side of the aisle.

      • Monday

        There was also a 3-part series within the Pod Save America podcast called “That’s The Ticket” in which 2 former campaign staffers talk about the process of VP selection.

        • Anon

          Yup, definitely. I joke that I could have saved on the tuition for my MPP program and just watched all of The West Wing instead.

        • Sloan Sabbith

          That show reminds me that functional and respectful governance is possible in our current hellscape.

    • Anonymous

      In this cases he DEFINITELY chose Kamala. You know her ties to Beau mattered a great deal to him and would’ve outweighed others. Great decision but sad overall for him (and Jill). Beau would have been his right hand if he was around; even unofficially he would have relied on his son’s views. So since he’s not around, he picks someone who was a friend/respected colleague of Beau because if Beau liked her, he inherently trusts her.

      • Sloan Sabbith

        Yes, I thought that too. I can’t imagine how hard it is for him to go through this whole process without his son who he trusted so much. His book “Promise Me, Dad” madd it so clear how much he loved and treasured Beau.

  12. PSA

    PSA: there’s a great sample sale at best kept secret dot com. Lots of brands this board may like (theory, rag & bone, good American) at sample sale prices and proceeds benefit charity.

  13. Washing Machine Recs

    Any recommendations for a new washing machine? I want a top loader with as few bells and whistles as possible but that will last for 15 years.

    • Anon

      Our new construction house came with a basic top loader Whirlpool that’s now 6 years old and has given us absolutely no problems. We didn’t chose it, but I have no complaints and I definitely think that no bells and whistles is the way to go. Pretty much every new appliance is going to be very energy efficient compared to older ones and it seems to be reasonably gentle on my clothes.

    • A.

      Plus one for Speed Queen. We got the washer and dryer about a year ago and they are THE BEST. When we purchased they were offering a ten year warranty for parts and labor, too. They totally stand by their products.

      • Anon

        Holy cow! I didn’t even know washers and dryers came with warranties, much less a decade-long one!

    • InHouseAnon

      We just bought one of the cheaper LG top loaders, the newer version of what my parents have been using for a few years with no complaints. Fairly inexpensive and we’re happy with it so far. Fwiw, Wirecutter indicated there might be some recent issues with the consumer versions of speed queens, but maybe the issues have been addressed.

      • Anon

        I hate my LG washer and dryer. I regret listening to the Wirecutter – I don’t know if they ever even used them!

    • IL

      Fair warning that there are appliance shortages due to COVID and/or trade fights. We weren’t able to go with our top choice (ordered this week) because it was back-ordered >1 month.

      • Anon

        It’s not just trade fights but backlogs in China from way back in March/April when they shut Wuhan down for COVID. It broke the chain of production – even if they were just waiting for parts from China, they couldn’t move forward with the process.

    • Anon

      We got a compact LG in 2008 and we love it. It fits under a regular-height counter. Works fine for two adults without kids. Even though it’s technically a compact-size washer, we find it holds plenty. We wash large rugs, king-size bedding, anything we need to. It holds plenty. We’re old enough that the current models of washers and driers look insanely too large to us, and we wanted a washer that would fit under a countertop.

  14. Anon

    When is it appropriate to sign up for daycare? We literally just found out last week we were expecting and have not been to the first prenatal appointment yet. DH thinks we should call and get on the list now due to the number of pregnancy announcements we’ve seen in the past few weeks for kids due in December and January. (I would have expected most of these people to start trying this year or next anyway, but the cluster of babies in December/January is clearly Covid related). I think we should wait until after the first prenatal appointment– when I’ll be about 8 weeks. Thoughts? We live in a city with a very competitive daycare market.

    • Anon

      ASAP. And accept that you may not have a spot for some time after you deliver, and may need to bridge the gap with staggered leaves, a family member and/or a nanny. The best daycares in my area have 2+ year waiting lists for newborns who don’t have sibling priority, and that was before COVID. It’s longer now with so many schools/daycares not opening or not opening at full capacity.

    • Anonymous

      If you’re comfortable doing it, call now. I know people who called while trying to conceive. I got on lists after our 12 week appointment and had trouble getting in when we were ready to go.

    • Anon

      My philosophy was there was minimal downside to calling as early as possible, just to at least ask them what their timeline looks like and what they recommend. In-homes will mostly not want you to even bother them until months before you are ready to go to them, more institutional ones may have a very long wait.

      That being said, I’m pretty turbo about this kind of thing and even I never did something like that before the first prenatal appt. The way I see it is there IS potentially downside in that scenario as the more concrete things you do to prep, the more heartbreaking it will be if something is not right. I mean, I guess you could make that argument all throughout your pregnancy, but something about at least getting one medically confirmed appt under your belt I think is an important step. So I would personally wait.

      Congrats! And good luck!

    • Anon

      As soon as possible, daycares are maxed out normally and now more than ever. Pick 2-3 you like, it’s worth the investment in the fees

    • Cb

      I’d wait until your prenatal appointment, but why don’t you encourage your husband make a list of places/manage the contact if he’s keen?

      • OP

        I’m leaning towards this– which also gets him involved in future kid’s care early– but am trying to figure out what he should be allowed to do. Ideally, kid would go to the daycare at our synagogue. The people there know us, so this wouldn’t just be him calling and putting our kid on a random list. The other thing is that DH has a tendency to jump to the endpoint of something– like he was so excited he wanted to go ahead and move his desk out of the future nursery and into the bedroom– so I’m trying to figure out what is a reasonable thing to do at this point in time.

        • Anon

          Definitely no to moving furniture yet. Especially because the baby will sleep in your room for awhile, so if anything you need the space in there way more than the nursery at first.

        • anon

          Not to be a Debbie downer, but I had a missed miscarriage that we found out about at the 8 week ultrasound, and I would have been even more devastated if we had already booked daycare and moved furniture. I’d really advise waiting until you have seen the baby on an ultrasound.
          Also, the December/January announcements are not “clearly Covid related.” You have no idea what the TTC history is of those couples. They may very well have been trying for years, and just not have shared anything about it with you.Never, ever make assumptions about people’s pregnancy timeline.

          • Anon

            I’m sorry for your loss. Pregnancy loss can happen at any time. There’s no magic point that makes a pregnancy safe, not even the much-discussed 12 week mark. And if you wait until you’re 12 weeks to get on daycare waiting lists, there’s no way you’ll have a spot for a newborn, especially in a “competitive daycare city.” I think this comes down to personal choice – would you rather potentially have this painful reminder if you lose a pregnancy, or would you rather potentially miss out on an opportunity to go to a daycare you loved? I”m very practical and didn’t want to miss out on the daycare spot, but I recognize others might make a different choice. But she should know that choosing to wait even a few weeks is losing many places in line.

          • OP

            I’m sorry for your loss, and yes, I realize miscarriages or something off can happen at any point during pregnancy. I’ve had friends and family members have miscarriages at 22 weeks or found out late in pregnancy that their child had a special need and would not be able to be in a daycare setting. I realize these are all possibilities, but I also realize I cannot wait until I find out if I am going to have a healthy baby (which I guess you don’t really know until the baby is born) to sign up for daycare.

          • Anon

            “I realize these are all possibilities, but I also realize I cannot wait until I find out if I am going to have a healthy baby (which I guess you don’t really know until the baby is born) to sign up for daycare.”

            As the mom of a six month old baby, I think this is absolutely the right way to go. My view on pregnancy is that the risks slowly drop from large, measurable, and tied to a specific problem, to minute and random. At the start, due to my age, I had about a 1/3d chance of miscarriage. Once the scan confirmed a heartbeat, that number dropped substantially. Then there was the genetic scan and the anatomy scan – maybe about a 1 in 100 chance of problems. Then there was the risk of early birth (before viability), then early viability early birth, then you’re basically cruising towards birth and less than 0.5% chances of anything going really wrong, from sources that you just can’t even figure out.

            Problems still happen, but problems happen at any age to the healthiest of people – SIDS, cancer, car accidents, violence – but those frighteningly high numbers are in the rear view mirror.

            I have a friend who just confirmed a heartbeat with her baby. By the numbers, her chance of miscarriage went from about 20% to 4%.

          • Anon

            My OB doesn’t do ultrasounds until 20 weeks. It’s insane to wait that long to join daycare waitlists. Getting on a daycare waitlist isn’t remotely the same as setting up a nursery. It isn’t a commitment at all, and in the sad event that you lose the pregnancy, it can be undone in a single phone call that your partner can make (though honestly, unless you’re pausing TTC, I would just stay on the waitlist – the extra few months will work to your advantage). Nursery furniture is totally different because you either give it away and you’ve lost tons of money, or you keep it and have a painful visual reminder of the loss in your own home.

        • Anon

          What do you mean what he is allowed to do? He’s this child’s parent, too, is he not?

        • Anon

          Re: synagogue daycare, are they even open currently? In my experience, most socially liberal religious organizations are erring on the side of caution with respect to public health and keeping their preschools/daycares closed.

    • Anonymous

      ASAP. One of the day cares we looked at advised getting on the list before you even got pregnant.

    • Anon

      Do it now. When I was pregnant, I figured I had plenty of time to get into the daycare adjacent to my office building until I was advised by a (male) coworker, “if you want in there you better go TODAY to sign up; there’s a long waiting list.” I went and got on the list immediately (I was about 4 months pregnant at the time) and we still had to get a nanny to bridge the gap between when I went back to work and the daycare having an opening (about three months). If you have a daycare you just love and really want to get into, call today.

    • SSJD

      Call now. We called day care centers weeks before we told our parents. Good luck and stay well!

    • cookie dough

      Several daycares in my area won’t let you sign up for the waiting list until baby is born, which seems strange to me but FYI in case you encounter it.

    • Anon

      I had this silly idea that I shouldn’t get on the daycare waiting list for the daycare at my office until I had told my boss about my pregnancy, which I did fairly late (14 weeks) because I wanted to minimize the risk of having to disclose a loss to the entire office. DON’T DO WHAT I DID! My child couldn’t go to daycare until she was 16 months old. Fortunately DH was able to take a long paternity leave after my leave, and then we had a nanny for a few months (which was a disappointing and hideously expensive experience that convinced me I never want to employ a nanny ever again). I’m not sure I’m going to have a second child but if I did I will call our beloved daycare the day I see the plus sign on the stick. A pregnancy loss would be devastating no matter what, and the small risk of having to remove myself from a waitlist wouldn’t be worth missing out on getting into the daycare I want.

    • Anon

      Related question – when is it appropriate to look for a nanny? I’m planning on taking 12 weeks maternity leave after the birth, and was going to look then b/c I figured no one is going to commit earlier than that. Crazy? Suburbs of very large US city.

      • Anon

        No, not crazy. Nannies require much less advance planning than daycares. Most people hire 1-2 months out in my city, although my info is all pre-COVID and it’s possible it’s changed.

      • AFT

        You typically can’t hire a nanny until 1-2 mos out anyway unless their job is ending naturally for them at that point (e.g., if they’ve been told that their job will end when youngest goes to K) and/or you have a connection with their current employer and are able to negotiate a transition. Also, because nannies want to avoid downtime, it would be unusual to have a nanny accept a job 3+ mos out and know she will be sitting idle for a time (again, unless it’s a situation where they already knew the job was ending weeks into the future with no hard feelings). Don’t worry, nanny hiring is a much later timeline.

    • Anne

      ASAP. We told our daycare director about expecting our second before we told my parents.

    • Q from the South

      This all seems crazy to me. I’m not a parent but lots of my close friends are to small children and I’ve never heard them mention daycare competition as an ISSUE. And we talked a lot about pregnancy and parenting. Is this a regional think or an upper class thing? I’m in Houston and most of my friends live here or in other big southern cities (Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, etc) at middle to ipper middle class incomes. And when I was younger I was taken care of Ms. Daisy up the street, Grandma, or at the daycare around the corner from my house with a rotating cast of children and I grew up solidly middle class.

      I’m truly curious. Is this just what modern infant and toddler care looks like?

      • Anon

        Yes. It is not regional; I am in the Southwest and posted above. We are HHI for our area but do not make nearly as much as other people on this board. Our daycare was under $1k per month. The waiting list was due to the fact that it was a high-quality care center in an area where there were a lot of office professionals working. It makes life immeasurably easier when a daycare is close to either home or office. High-quality daycares that are licensed and hire trained help and are located in convenient areas always have high demand. It’s simple economics.

        “And when I was younger I was taken care of Ms. Daisy up the street, Grandma, or at the daycare around the corner from my house with a rotating cast of children and I grew up solidly middle class.”

        Thanks for disclaiming up front that you are not a parent as it helps me contextualize why you would say this and think that somehow, the way this worked for your parents (I’m going to say decades ago, but I don’t know) would work in any way, shape or form for modern mothers who have demanding careers. This is 2020. Grandma is either still working or is worn out from working and raising children herself and does not want to provide everyday care. Ms. Daisy down the street is also working because she needs health insurance and she’s not old enough for Medicare yet. The “daycare around the street with the rotating cast of children” turned out in many cities to be the daycare that harbored child molesters because the nice mom running it did not have to have a background check to operate or get background checks for her husband, son, weird nephew or “family friend” who hung around all the time. I don’t know if you’re the same poster who repeatedly posts about “I just can’t believe raising kids is like this today!” in response to these threads but I feel like a message has been sent, and is being sent, to you about these issues and somehow the message is not being received.

        • Q from the South

          I’m not sure why you came at me so hostile, I am not that poster nor was I trying to “send a message” I truly come from a place of curiosity and was stating my experience growing up – I’m younger and was in daycare or after school care about 15 yrs ago so I thought it was relevant.
          Your information was nonetheless useful but please consider why you had to respond so mean and disdainfully, it does not show your character well.

        • Anon

          Not to comment on the hostility of this, but I post questions on the mom page sometimes and every now and then someone will respond with how something worked when they were a kid, and in general I totally ignore those answers. a) things change substantially and quickly in parenting b) I find adults aren’t great at accurately remembering when or how certain things happened to them, even if they think they do (like oh I loved such and such activity when I was kid! Yet they were 8 and my kid is 4 so that has no bearing on my situation, but from an adult perspective that all blues together) and c) now that I’m a parent, and have discussed certain issues with my own mom, I’m realizing there was more to certain things from my own childhood behind the scenes than I realized. Example, my own kids will probably have a memory of going to a pretty low key loving neighborhood preschool… but they probably won’t realize later in life that I actually started calling said low key preschool when they were months old and knew many people that didn’t get in. I guess I just don’t see that randomly coming up when they are teenagers/adults? Until they have kids and deal with it themselves.

          • Anon

            I’m a mother. Some things do change quickly and some things don’t ever change because people are still people. Athletic teenagers will still eat you out of house and home. Kids still grow fast and you have to be prepared for the growth spurts. Sports always will have great teams, bad teams, abusive coaches, great coaches, mediocre coaches. Things that run smoothly on the front end usually take an enormous amount of work on the back end. Kids are really different and what works for one might be too lax, too harsh, etc for another one.

            Oh, yeah: and school projects are often parent projects that are officially assigned to the kid. I learned this one by middle school because I was raised by an overworked single parent and got terrible grades on my parent, I mean school, projects that other kids’ parents helped them with.

          • Anon

            This addresses my point a) about things changing (yes, agreed, not everything changes) but it doesn’t really address points b or c about when I ask for parenting advice I would still prefer to generally get advice from people who have been parents rather than someone’s memory of what happened when they were the kid. To take one of your examples, if my kid had a bad coach i might want to know how another parent dealt with that situation, not how an adult thinks their parent handled that situation 15 years ago (even though the situation in question is the same!).

          • Anon

            For what it’s worth, when I was a kid, my basketball team coaches were not great. The basketball options for girls in my town were not as good as the options the boys had. My father solved it by coaching the team himself. He had to go through different channels to get it done (the Y, not the town, sponsored it for insurance and political reasons). The town shot him down. He might have considered suing under Title IX, as the boys had a town travel team but the town didn’t let the girls travel. However, years in court (the one with a judge, not a referee) doesn’t get your daughter playing ball, so the Y was the solution.

            I think a lot of adults look back on their childhood with nostalgia or maybe their parents didn’t talk to them about these things as they happened or as they got older. Neither was true for me.

            Backing up a bit: the reason I push this point isn’t to be a jerk to you; you are thoroughly reasonable and seem like a lovely person. However, I’ve noticed that a lot of mommies (language deliberate) seem to love pulling the “you can’t understand unless you’re a parent” card. Once I became a mother, I found out that far less changed than the Mommies promised would change.

        • Seventh Sister

          FWIW, there are a bunch of family daycares in my city. A lot of it is due to real estate (VHCOL city) but I also suspect that it has to do with somewhat relaxed licensing requirements. Having been on the board of a private non-profit preschool, some of the fussier space/building requirements we had to meet as a stand-alone center would have been waived if we’d been a home-based daycare.

          My mom loves to bring up that the daycare I went to had to be closed because the woman who ran it was married to a child molester. While I’m sure that kind of thing still happens, providers do have to get background checks and there is definitely more licensing/oversight (at least in my current state).

          • Anon

            A daycare center in my city had a scandal a few years ago because the owner’s son – who worked there part time – was arrested for child p*rn. It was a licensed/highly rated place. Definitely still happens.

      • Anonymous

        This is what modern infant and toddler care looks like, especially if you can’t afford a nanny. Demand for child care far exceeds supply, even in my MCOL mid-sized SEUS city. Grandma is not a viable option for most people. It only gets worse when the kids start elementary school and you need to find before/after school care and discover that summer day camps only run from 9:00 to 3:00 and are all closed for the entire month of August.

        • Seventh Sister

          Yeah, that 9-3 schedule is so irritating. My kid went to one of those and “extended care” was until 5:30. Not really meant for two-parent working families, carefully calibrated for families with one SAHP and lots and lots of money. The no-frills day camps run by the public school district weren’t fancy but had better hours (and cost less).

      • Mrs. Jones

        It’s not crazy. I’m in Atlanta and got on day care wait lists during pregnancy.

      • Anon

        Regional thing. It’s crazy in some cities (San Diego, Boston, NYC, from what I’ve heard) but is virtually nonexistent in other parts.

        I signed up for daycare when I was 37 weeks pregnant and got the daycare I wanted.

        • Anon

          Midwest college town here, and lots of daycares have two year waiting lists for firstborn children. People get on the list when they test positive and frequently don’t get a spot until their oldest child is 12-18 months old. It ‘s not just a big city thing or a super wealthy person thing.

          • InHouseAnon

            Correct.It was not an issue with our first when we lived in a small southern town, but everywhere else we’ve lived (southern college town, large midwestern city, mid-size west coast city) all the top daycares have had extensive (i.e., many months to years) waitlists.

          • Anon

            I’m the one who got on a daycare list at 37 weeks.

            We live about 10 miles outside of a college town (250,000 people, large university) in a suburb with a small college.

            I’m not exactly sure why it’s so easy to get a spot in a high quality daycare here, except that our town is growing pretty fast and they are building daycares faster than families are moving in. Ours only opened three years ago.

      • CountC

        I am not a parent and also not in a big city and it is still incredibly difficult to get into the good daycare centers here. My friends were super stressed about it!

      • anon

        It may be a regional thing. It is not just an upper class thing. I am in New Orleans. I was very sick during my first trimester and didn’t have the energy to research daycares and tour them (usually required in my area to even get on a waiting list) until I was 4 months pregnant/8 months away from needing daycare. We toured 5-6 daycares with a range of prices, some religiously affiliated, some affiliated with private schools, and some independent/community, with prices ranging from $800 to $1400 per month. We got wait listed at all of them, decided to use a nanny for the first year (which was a great but expensive experience for us), and finally got into a daycare when Kiddo was 17 months old.

      • Anon

        Yes, this is common now. It’s not “competition” in the sense that NYC preschools are competitive, with the schools judging the parents and/or kids and people vying for spots at the most prestigious schools. That’s a whole different issue that I know nothing about. What people are talking about here is just that in many areas daycare demand vastly outpaces supply so waiting lists are loooong. I would venture that it’s even more of an issue for lower and middle class folks since upper class people are more likely to opt out of the daycare race and get a nanny or nanny share.

      • Anon

        Yup, just how it is now. My daycare doesn’t even take infants that aren’t younger siblings of enrolled children. I mean, officially they do, but it hasn’t happened in the last 10 years because there are only 6 infant spots and those always go to siblings of the other 90 enrolled children.

      • anonchicago

        It’s not a modern thing; I’m 33 and my mom has told me stories of signing up early for daycare and preschools for me in the 80s. This was in a midsize city and in one case she basically camped out all night to get a slot at a preschool (this was obviously before online sign ups). If your parents didn’t both work full time, or care to share this info, I can imagine it would seem strange, but daycare competition definitely not a 2020 thing.

      • Seventh Sister

        It does in my area (southern CA). Because there isn’t really any public provision for infant or toddler care, it’s hard to find a spot and you often have to get on waiting lists and pay deposits while pregnant. I really, really wanted a large childcare center as opposed to a home daycare, and it was hard to find a spot and I’m still not sure how we managed to pay for it.

        Despite a lot of statements to the contrary, Americans in general don’t care about children and the response to childcare issues basically starts and ends with, “you’re on your own.”

    • Sloan Sabbith

      A colleague of mine has a 1.5 year old and he’s still on the waiting list for one of the most popular daycares in our city. They put themselves on the list 4 months before the baby was born.

    • Anon

      I find it really hard to believe that tons of people due in December/January are cover related. Doesn’t that mean they got pregnant between early March and late April? Even if every single one of them get pregnant the first month of trying (very, very doubtful), at least some of those people got pregnant before cover was a big thing throughout the US. I think it is extremely more likely that you are at an age where many of your friends are at an age when people are likely to get pregnant, and many of them were trying pre-covid without telling you.

      • Lime

        Yes, this “covid baby” idea is actually pretty offensive and annoying to anyone pregnant these days. Not picking on the poster who said that, but no, my husband and I didn’t just get bored during quarantine and have a whoopsie baby. No, we didn’t “fail at social distancing.” It’s hard enough not being able to have your partner at doctor appointments, or being able to shop for maternity clothes or baby items in person, or have a baby shower, or having your friends and family meet your baby… can we not also reduce pregnancies to covid babies?

    • Anon

      It’s the same as trying to find a nanny. You need to get on it early or you may not have the right timing for return to work. That can be very stressful. Be prepared for things not to work out as planned though. Daycares close, nanny’s find other work. My point is, you can plan away, but there will be glitches to contend with.

  15. Equestrian Attorney

    Puppy adoption thread! We are seriously considering adopting a Beagle puppy. I know we should adopt not shop, but shelters in my area are apparently out of dogs to adopt except pitbulls, and that’s not a good fit for us. A friend of a friend has some sweet Beagle puppies looking for a home. We live in a condo, but a very large park with a dog park is literally across the street, and we are moving to a house with a yard within the next year. SO has family who could watch the dog if we go on vacation. I’m WFH for the indefinite future and could really use some company. I’ve had dogs and cats before, so I know that it’s a big commitment, but I haven’t had a puppy in a while. Any advice? Should we crate train? What do we need before bringing it home?

    • Anon

      I have heard that beagles are little devils. What is it about that breed that appeals to you? It’s quite possible that there is a lot more to it that I am not aware of, but I do think it’s worth exploring the breeds downsides before jumping into anything or exploring the specifics like crate training.

      • Equestrian Attorney

        We have actually looked into the breed a bit. I’ve been told they are very sweet but energetic. I run in the morning so I’m thinking maybe the dog could come too? I fully expect puppy shenanigans (chewing on shoes etc) but is there something else I’m missing about Beagles? I didn’t specifically want that breed, but it came up because we know someone who has some and they said it could be a good fit. I had Labradors and Golden Retrievers growing up so I’m not sure how they compare.

        • Anon

          Gotcha. My main impression comes from a woman I knew who had two beagles that had to be kept away from visiting children because they were so nippy and surprisingly aggressive. She was fairly skilled with animals (trained horses, etc) and very well off so I don’t think it was a neglect situation. I think they are generally not as “chill“ as the larger breeds like Labradors. It sounds like you’re doing your research though. Good luck!

          • Equestrian Attorney

            Hmmm, interesting. I don’t want a breed that’s bad with kids – we don’t have any right now but plan to have them in the future. The American Kennel Club describes them a good family dog, though. I would work on socialization and puppy obedience classes so hopefully the dog would be used to being around other dogs/kids/etc and not too snippy.

          • Anon

            My dad had a beagle growing up and she was great with kids. I don’t think of beagles as a breed that’s bad with kids.

          • SuperAnon

            YMMV, but I have two beagles (both lady dogs) and they are excellent with adults and kids.

            A lot of it, as with any breed, is how you socialize the dog(s). I love my hounds because they’re energetic outside (they like to walk/run/go on a sniff) but are also pretty lazy when they’re inside.

            They ARE stubborn/not terribly interested in learning “tricks.” They were both easy to crate train and house train, but don’t do much beyond “sit, stay, leave it.”

          • Anon

            In my experience being nippy has more to do with training than the breed. Or in the case of my late dog, an early sign that he was very very sick.

        • Anonymous

          If you grew up with Labs and Goldens, a beagle will be a disappointment. Labs and Goldens live for their humans. Beagles merely accept humans as accessories in their environment.

          • Anon

            The beagles I’ve known have been like this – they’re…not the brightest dogs and you don’t get a lot of the loving interaction that you get with a different breed. But maybe if you raise them up from a puppy with lots of interaction, there’s more to them?

      • mascot

        +1. I’ve known some very sweet beagles, but they do have some distinct characteristics that can be a challenge. (noise, wanderlust, high energy, can be stubborn). Do some breed research and pick the right fit for your family.

    • Anon

      I’ve never met a beagle that wasn’t LOUD. How will that work in a condo?

      • anon

        +1. My next door neighbors when I was a kid had a beagle. He was good with kids and overall a fine dog. But I could hear that dog from my room, in a separate house about 30-40 feet away from the neighbor’s house.

      • emeralds

        Yeah, this is the big one that jumped out at me about getting a beagle in a condo. They bark a LOT and they are LOUD.

    • Veronica Mars

      Yes, I’d recommend you research a breed that fits into your lifestyle rather than seeing an available puppy and trying to do the math if it’ll really be a good breed for you. For a condo, I’d recommend a dog that is low to medium energy–I think beagles are medium/high.

    • anon

      Consider rescue organizations as opposed to shelters. They tend to have a much wider variety of dogs available. We got a 4 month old goldendoodle from a rescue. Like you, all of our local shelters are filled with nothing but pit bulls.

      • Anon

        But also know that rescue organizations can be very strict when it comes to who gets a dog. We ended up getting our puppy through a breeder because all of the rescues in our area told us NOPE because we did not have (1) a fenced yard or (2) a car large enough for a crate. It did not matter at all that we’d owned that same (large) breed previously, that I WFH full-time, that we were accustomed to several long walks per day with prior dog plus off-leash time at the dog park so were absolutely aware and comfortable with how much exercise they needed, etc. etc. They have strict checklists, and if you don’t meet the criteria, then no dog.

        • Equestrian Attorney

          Yeah I have looked into rescues and it doesn’t look like we would qualify. I also looked into Greyhound rescues, which are often recommended for condos, but apparently all of the Greyhounds come from the US (I’m in Canada) and so because of the border closure there are no greyhounds around.

          • Anon

            Greyhounds also come from Ireland. Even in the USA, because of the closure of many tracks, adoption groups were importing from Ireland pre-COVID. You might check into that avenue – I’m not sure what the travel situation between Ireland and Canada is right now.
            As I mentioned on another post, though, a lot of adoption groups really oversell the “greyhounds are couch potatoes” thing. They are awesome dogs – I have and have had many and fostered hundreds – but they are dogs and they do normal dog things. Often, adopters are surprised by this.

    • A.

      We have a beagle mix (so, not a purebred) that we adopted when she was a puppy. She is LOUD — not, like, when she’s sitting on the couch, but when she sees people walk by our house or come to the door. Lots of barking then! However, because we raised her from a puppy and she’s had tons of kid exposure, she’s amazing with all kids. I do love her, even though she drives me nuts from time to time (will occasionally dig in the yard or chew something she’s not supposed to). But she’s super snuggly and very loving. Other than the noise concern and the fact that you need to tire them out (either physically or with a puzzle toy or similar — something that works their brains), I think these are great dogs for the right family.

      • annienomous

        We had a beagle when I was a kid (lived to be 15! So, from young childhood to college.) Spot was great with us but aggressively curious about visitors. Very, very high energy. We lived in the country and he was solely an outside dog. I could not imagine having a beagle in a condo, but they may not all be as energetic as ours was.

    • LawDawg

      I have a 17 year old beagle (rescue, but he looks/acts like 100% beagle). He is a wonderful, sweet dog, but he could NEVER go running with anyone. He loves to run, but is very easily distracted by smells and animals. He also regularly escapes from our fenced backyard and will not come back until he has satisfied his wanderlust on his own (usually will find a nearby home renovation and sniff out where workers dropped their uneaten lunches). We never took him to an off-leash dog park unless it was a smaller, fenced area. I don’t want to discourage beagle adoption — my dog is great — but you should know what you are getting into.

    • Equestrian Attorney

      Thanks, all. I’m sad because I was really excited about the puppy situation, but I appreciate the feedback and will take some time to think it over and determine if it’s the right fit. Other than greyhounds, is there any particular breed you would recommend for a condo?

      • Anon

        I think it’s less about the breed, and more about the owner and commitment to giving the dog the amount of exercise it needs.

        We have only ever had labs and goldens. In this time, we lived in apartments (no yard), a condo (no yard), and now renting a house but without a fenced yard. We are crazy about making sure the dog gets several long walks per day, plus off-leash time chasing balls or running with other dogs at the park. Honestly, even if we had a huge fenced yard, I wouldn’t just let the dog out there on its own because (1) it wouldn’t exercise itself unless I was running around too or throwing a ball, and (2) then I’d have to inspect the whole yard to pick up dog poop, no thanks.

      • Veronica Mars

        I’m a fan of non shedding breeds- Bichon frise, havanese, and shitzus, and other small, medium to low energy breeds would be good for a condo. Also if you’re transitioning a dog from a condo to a house, they dog will still expect the same level of walks it got before. My dog was a stellar apartment dog, but now that I’m in a house, he still expects the same level of walking and 1:1 time.

          • anon

            I have a Havanese and he was GREAT during the five years we lived in an apartment. He’s extremely friendly, very low maintenance, and no shedding is a big bonus!

      • mascot

        I love spaniels. We’ve got a 6 month old springer spaniel who is so far, awesome. Sweet disposition, smart and trainable, will top out around 45 lbs, manageable energy. We’ve had cockers too and they were fine for a condo/apartment as long as they got walks/daycare/outings .

      • Carmen Sandiego

        I have a “designer mutt” poodle/cavalier spaniel mix and looove her. Ours in particular is low energy and would do great in a condo. Poodles are super smart and she was very easy to train, though she is very food motivated and always trying to scam treats. My niece, nephews, friends’ kids love her because she’s happy to do “shke, sit, roll over” over and over for treats and they get a kick out of it. (Plus, no shedding!)

        • Anon Probate Atty

          +1 I have a “woodle” – wheaten terrier/poodle mix (rescue). He is the best.dog.ever. No shedding, super smart, hypoallergenic, wonderful with kids and doesn’t bark. Loves to walk, but refuses to fetch. He WAS quite the escape artist when he was younger (I think a lot of the smarter dogs are…almost like they need a challenge). I would highly recommend mixed breeds as good family dogs, considering you want kids someday.

      • Sloan Sabbith

        I have a chihuahua schipperke mix (about 12 pounds) and he’s pretty much the perfect size for a condo but not a purse dog. He can go on 5-6 mile walks or hikes with me no problem but also sleeps all day when I’m gone now that he’s a little older.
        He’s also stubborn and a bit of an anxious wimp but I think that’s just him.

      • pugsnbourbon

        Gonna put in a plug for pugs (obviously). There are rescues dedicated to pugs and pug mixes. Pugs are velcro dogs – our girl must be able to see or touch my wife at all times – and are usually pretty even tempered. She’s aggressive toward other dogs – she was in shelters for a couple years – but is totally fine with children. They can be sassy and stubborn, and boy do they shed, but are so lovable and full of personality.

    • Anonymous

      I completely understand all the replies that a beagle may not be the right breed. However, I think a lot of it depends on the owner. I had a very active Australian Shep mix in a very small apartment in San Francisco for four years (about 500 sq ft, street level, with no outdoor space). Everyone said it was insane but I always wanted a dog and fell in love with this puppy. We made it work and it was great. I was WFH. I had a trainer come out in the beginning to train me on how to raise this dog in this space — and I talked to my vet about how to make it work. Both were incredibly helpful. We had rules and a schedule and both were enforced with complete consistency. I had to make sure that dog had a lot of exercise before my workday began. It was amazing and my sweet pup settled in and understood the rules and schedule. I think you can make it work if you commit and get the necessary training.

      • Equestrian Attorney

        Thanks! My partner and I had several talks about taking the dog for long walks before and after work, what happens when if and when we both go back to the office, etc. We both had dogs growing up and we are committed to taking good care of the dog, working with a trainer, taking the dog on long walks, socializing, etc. But obviously I don’t want a dog who will be completely miserable and howl all day (my neighbors will complain).

        • Anonymous

          Even though I was WFH, I had some office days and occasional travel. I never had a complaint from any neighbor — and my neighbors would have complained. I also did doggie day care for him a couple of times a month to keep him socialized and to have a place he was completely comfortable when I had to board him. It also helped tire him out on days when I just wasn’t up for it.

          In terms of your other questions, I am a huge believer in crate training. I suggest having the crate from day one. It helps protect the pup from getting into things when you cannot watch him. It also helps with quiet when you are not home — place a blanket over the crate to make it den like and the pup cannot see people outside to howl or bark. It also becomes their safe space. My would crawl into his crate when scared, curl up and go to sleep. The crate is also a life saver for WFH — puppy has a place and you know where he is when you are working — he is asleep in his crate! I also suggest getting items that I called puppy projects. I got kongs and similar items that I could fill with peanut butter and other food, freeze, then give to the pup in his crate to keep him busy and quiet while I worked.

          Dogs are the best and I cannot imagine my life without one. If you put in the work and are consistent, I think any dog can fit into your life. Good luck and keep us posted!

    • Anon

      Since you’re in Canada I would recommend looking into Arctic dogs. There are literally hundreds of dogs which get brought down and placed into shelters or rescues. There are so many great organizations to get a pet ethically.

      • Equestrian Attorney

        I would love an Arctic dog rescue but aren’t they huge? I was thinking that wouldn’t be the best choice for a city dweller…

        • Anon

          It largely depends on the specific animal but they can range from 50lbs -150lbs. Size isn’t the major concern with apartment/condo living. You need to be concerned about activity level and temperament. Great Danes for example are basically human sized but they’re such lazy potatoes they thrive in small spaces.

          • anon

            I was surprised how small sled dogs were the first time i saw them – 25 kg or so.

            In the prairies, there are organizations that rescue dogs from remote northern communities. Do some research on the rescue, though – there is at least one rescue in Saskatchewan that has a reputation for failing to disclose aggressive behaviour.

      • Anonymous

        I would not recommend a beagle for OP’s living situation, but I’m not sure why it would be unethical for her to take one of her friend’s puppies. If the friend can’t find homes for them, won’t they end up in a rescue or shelter anyway?

        • Anon

          It’s not about that particular dog, its cycle of breeding. OP is functionally inscentivising bad behaviour if she buys the beagel. If OPs friend knows they can breed puppies and make money, they will continue to do it. If OPs friend can’t get rid of the puppies or make a profit they will likely go spay their damn dog.

    • Anon

      Beagles are notorious for ignoring commands and being difficult to train–not because they aren’t smart, but because they just don’t like being told what to do. It’s definitely a challenging breed.

    • Anon

      I feel disappointed for you that everyone is so down on you getting one of these puppies. I think the reason dog advocates feel so strongly about the right breed is that they want to prevent puppy/dog surrenders to shelters.

      You don’t sound at all like the kind of person who would do that. If you’re committed to training and regularly exercising your dog, I’m sure you could make it work.

      I read all these responses about beagles being horrible and I am very surprised. One of my close coworkers (we are a two person department so very close) has a beagle, Charlie, who is his constant companion. Charlie is not super loud – he will let out a single “ruff” if he hears a new sound, but it’s more of a warning shot and not a huge racket. And he has escaped just a couple of times from his fenced yard but came home quickly, happy and dirty.

      Other than that he’s a sweet, loyal dog who loves to be around his owners (like the description of the Velcro pug above.) He is great with their kids and very protective, though he is not Velcro-like with them, just the adults. He’s a frequent participant on zoom calls lately, as my coworker will often pull Charlie onto his lap for part of the call, because at this point Charlie has a zoom fan club. I guess I feel like defending the breed. I’m a strong proponent of training – specifically AKC training, I don’t know if they have that in Canada – and I believe that dogs want to be strictly trained. They want to know who the alpha is and where their place in the pack is. If you invest the time to train any breed, you will have a great dog.

      • Anonymous

        I am going to push back on the idea that training is enough to ensure that you will have a great dog. There are some dogs that just were not born to live in houses with people. We had one of these dogs, a hound mix that we adopted as a puppy. I was an experienced dog owner who had successfully competed in obedience trials with another dog. We gave this puppy the best possible foundation in life–consistent training from day 1 at home and in classes, socialization, as many as 6 walks a day, doggie day care, proper crate training, everything. It just wasn’t enough. The dog could not stand to see a human sit down or do anything other than pay attention to her, so she would raise a huge racket all throughout meal times. She refused to go outside by herself. She literally tried to eat the house. She considered my husband the leader of the pack and me an interloper, and was aggressive towards me and our baby. We later found out that every single dog from this litter had the same issues, and all had put their families through hell despite the families’ best efforts.

        TLDR: Proper training is necessary, but not sufficient, to develop a great dog. Quit blaming responsible dog owners when their animals turn out to have inborn personality defects.

    • Hollis

      We adopted a beagle mix puppy from a rescue organization last year and it’s been wonderful for us and our family. At full size, she is less than 40 lbs so I think she would be fine with living in a condo. We crate-trained our puppy, but we only put her in the crate when we leave her alone at home, which doesn’t happen much due to covid and two work from home parents and 3 kids. You have noted that you don’t believe you qualify for a rescue, and I thought the same for our family (no fenced yard, 2 parents who work form home all day), but our rescue organization wasn’t that strict (and I know some are), so you may want to apply anyway and see how it goes. In terms of what you need, I would recommend a dog bed (our puppy loves the bagel bed from majesty pets, sold on amazon), a harness (i personally love the chai’s choice outdoor adventure harness), a leash, food and water bowls, a crate or indoor play pen, and some puppy food. i also highly recommend seeking out some resources for learning how to socialize a puppy and train her since early training and socialization can help avoid problems later (i.e. problems like fear of other dogs, loud noises, etc.) Good luck!

    • Beaglelover

      I think it’s a great breed. They can be active or couch potatoes depending on their age and temperament, and a lot has to do with selecting the right dog for your environment. I’m a lapsed runner, so my current beag (we’ve had five) is very easy-going and either naps or does neighborhood watch out the front window. She gets a walk every day and should get more but it pretty hot in Houston these days and we will save upgraded activity for the fall. Crate training is a must in my book. Noise level when you are absent from home is a function of boredom and anxiety, and can be abated but will probably never really go away. Please feel free to send me a burner email if you want more info. Good luck!

  16. Anon

    Does anybody live in Vermont? Just like everybody else, the pandemic is making me consider whether my husband and I want to move from where we currently live in California. We can’t afford to buy property with land here unless we go far up north in California, but that’s not a great cultural or political fit. We used to live in Boston and while I love the west, where I grew up, I’m wondering if it makes sense to reconsider New England. I have always had my eye on Vermont, but have only ever visited for short trips when I was on ski team in college. Does anyone have any thoughts about moving to Vermont and raising a family and probably working remotely? Any thoughts on quality of life?

    • Anon

      Not Vermont specific, but are you sure your jobs are permanently remote? What if you get laid off or decide to quit – will you be able to find a job in Vermont? It’s hard for me to imagine moving to an area where there isn’t a robust local job market for me, just because I think remote work arrangements are by definition sort of tenuous. Most people change jobs multiple times in their lifetimes so I’m hesitant to assume I’ll work remotely for life. Fwiw, my employer has told me I’m permanently remote, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they reverse that decision when Covid is over.

    • Anonymous

      Are you WFH? Any chance you could try Vermont out for a few months with a long term AirBNB? A dear friend of mine grew up and lives there. I love it, but see it from a vacation perspective and generally visit when the weather is nice in late summer or fall.

    • Anon

      Read the frugalwoods blog if you’re interested in really owning property with land. They sort of claim to be retired, but I think her husband works remotely and she writes/blogs. I went to college in NH and loved it (right on the VT border so I’m familiar with both), but that was obviously a different stage of life…

      • Diana Barry

        +1. They are def not retired, he is high up at ActBlue. They do a lot with their land so it is interesting to see.

        • Anon

          They COULD be retired (that was the whole point of moving to Vermont and their original plan was for both to stop working), but I imagine they held on to the big salary and health insurance since kids were on the way. Pretty sure they have 0 need to have paid employment anymore, though – so really they’re financially free, just not retired.

    • Equestrian Attorney

      I’ve spent a lot of time in Vermont (I live in Montreal, a two hour drive from Burlington, and have family in the area). The Burlington area is nice – it’s a cute city along the lake. It’s not a large city, but it does have some nice “city” amenities, good shops and restaurants, a cute downtown. The outdoor is great- amazing skiing, lakes, mountains… It’s a progressive state with some good policies (I think they have subsidized daycares?). Depending on where you are in the state, it can feel very remote, and if you can’t work remotely, the job market isn’t great, but otherwise I think it’s a lovely place to live. I’m used to the winter, but coming from California it can definitely be a shock (expect more snow than in Boston). Second the Frugalwoods recommendation for a sense of what life is like over there.

    • Anon

      Thanks for the responses so far. I’m a bit tight on time today, but for more context, we could probably work remotely or get new jobs assuming we live in a city with at least some jobs in our fields (we also want to retire early), we love winter and the outdoors, and we love smaller cities/larger towns with some nice amenities, but with great nature first and foremost. We would much rather have one great coffee shop and two tasty restaurants than a really hopping urban scene.

      • Anon

        Gosh, it sounds perfect for you :) We vacation up there and love it so much, but, as my husband says, I’m solar powered and can’t take that much winter ;)

      • Anon

        Why do you assume that you would be able to find jobs in Vermont?

        From your description, Portland ME might be a far better match. It puts you in a city that is doing well, and if you really, really struggle to find a job in Portland, you could (I know people who have done it) commute into Boston.

        • Anon

          I’m sure OP has additional information about her job situation that she hasn’t shared with us.

          • Anon

            I’m sure she doesn’t.

            The largest city in Vermont is Burlington, population 42,000. The OP has lived in Boston and California, and from her description, a large city in California. She makes it sound like Vermont has cities the size of Portland, Tulsa, or Columbia MO. It does not.

          • Anon

            What a strange response. Why would you assume that you know more about the OP’s job situation and that she’s assuming cities in Vermont are like Tulsa? Odd.

          • Anon

            You’re weirdly invested in being baselessly critical of me. Perhaps end the projection.

            The OP said, “get new jobs assuming we live in a city with at least some jobs in our fields.” Asking her to examine that assumption is not a “strange response.”

      • anon VT

        I grew up in Vermont, so my experiences are outdated, but of course it was lovely to grow up there (*as a white person). Fun winters, fall apple picking, muddy springs (“mud season”), warm but not crazy hot summers. I grew up in a couple of suburbs of Burlington (45 minutes and 15 minutes away). I got my degree from a college in VT and then promptly moved out of state. My friends who are still there (millennials and Gen-Xers) don’t make as much money as I do and have had fewer opportunities than those who moved out of state. I have done some job searching inside VT and considered moving back after my family went through some changes, but nothing cropped up and I didn’t end up going. Public transit is a joke, you need a car (and your kids will need cars, or friends, when they come of age).

        *I would challenge that my family had POCs in it and it was very, very hard for them. Vermont doesn’t appear to be a racist place, but there are just *no* POCs. (At the time I was growing up, I did the math, and it was something like 0.005% of all black people in VT were in my immediate family). Because there is very little interaction with POCs, there is a very big sense of “other”. My sister has a hard time dating, she’s had guys say “I like you but I don’t date black girls”. I mean, insane kind of stuff, and it’s just… normal. You don’t mention whether you are white or not, but it is a significant factor in the choice to move there – or worse, raise kids there. I don’t want to dissuade you completely if you are a POC, just a harsh warning that it is very, very white and that demo is not likely to change in the next 10 years.

        • Don't move to VT

          I would second this. My partner and I live on the NH/VT border at a college town, but my partner is asian. The stares, unfair treatment, and just rudeness that we experience because of this is CRAZY! We often drive to Boston/NY/Montreal (pre-pandemic) if only to see/be around people who are not all white, which is just a huge stress lifted off our shoulders for something as routine as weekly grocery shopping. Do you want to drive 4 hrs round trip to get groceries? I would say probably not…

          I would never move here again, and we are getting out as soon as we can.

        • Anon

          I live in NH and love NH but I’m white and agree that this is a VERY white state. I can’t speak to what it would be like to live here as a person of color.

        • Anon

          I lived in NH for a semester in college and it put me off ever living there again. It was extremely white (I’m white but I still noticed the extreme whiteness and didn’t like it), extremely pro-gun and I experienced more street harassment there than anywhere else I’ve lived by a factor of about 10. I know VT is a different state but my understanding is that culturally and politically they’re pretty similar, so I have to admit my experience has put me off living there too. All the New England states are beautiful and I love visiting, but I didn’t think I would consider living in any of them unless it was in a good-size city, like Portland ME or Providence RI.

          • Anon

            I don’t doubt what you experienced in NH, but I’ve always heard that VT is very different – much more progressive, less gun-heavy, etc, albeit still too white. Can anyone else comment?

          • Anon

            I’ve happily lived in VT while sharing this view of NH; I disagree that they’re culturally or politically all that similar.

          • Anon

            I’m not sure how long ago you lived in NH but it has gone from a solidly red state to a very purple state with lots of totally blue communities. It all depends on where you live. It is very pro-gun but that doesn’t generally impact my day to day. I’ll occasionally see someone open carry in a grocery store and I drive past a lot of gun stores but the people I hang out with aren’t bringing guns to my house that I know of.

          • Anonymous

            NH is the Texas of the North. Vermont is fine if you are a vegan, or gay, as long as you are white.

  17. Jute rug

    We have some sea grass rugs that are scratchy (but water-friendly and easy to clean, so OK i. Dining room and home office). I have seen a lovely soft jute one at an open house once and was thinking of getting one for our den. Good idea? Bad idea? How do you vacuum and deal with the inevitable crumbs and spills? And good vendors? This would be going on hardwoods and I hope it will make it visually and actually cozy and cut down on the echo factor.

    • Anonymous

      I love the look but have found them impossible to clean and that they collect dust. A wool rug is soft, easy to vacuum and spills clean up easily. It would be soft, cozy and help acoustics.

      • Anonymous

        Good to know. Where does one get good wool rugs, especially these days?

        And they aren’t scratchy? I would have guessed that at least some are.

        • Anon

          I’ve heard that jute stains easily, but don’t remember where I read that.

          You know the typical oriental rugs? They’re wool. Not scratchy at all. Try searching rugs.com for starters.

        • Anonymous

          Anon at 1030. I bought a pretty modern wool rug at west elm of all places. When my toddler spilled an entire glass(!) of red wine on it, it cleaned up really easily. (He wasnt drinking the wine-he just knocked it- I hope that’s obvious.) Anyway I’m a wool rug convert now. I’d consider replacing my ruggable with one if I wasn’t trying to move in the next six months.

        • Anon

          I have a bunch of persian type rugs, all wool, all except one are some level of vintage/antique. I bought my first from one of those tent sales in the Home Depot parking lot, which was a weird experience, but I got a great rug and a great price.

          Seeing all those rugs helped me determine what kind of rug I like, which in my case is Shiraz / tribal. Since then, I’ve bought rugs for other rooms from oriental rug dealers. Many of them sell used (but cleaned professionally) and they can be pretty good deals. The price is ALWAYS negotiable.

          I love the look of a traditional Persian rug on wood floors. Especially if your style is colorful/eclectic, they’re really going to work for you. And as they say, a Persian rug really pulls the room together. :)

    • InHouseAnon

      If you have pets, they will have any and all accidents on the impossible-to-clean jute rug. Not on the hardwoods *next* to the rug, not on the machine washable rug, only on the jute rug. As you may have concluded, we will not have another jute rug in our house.
      A while ago someone here recommended The Rug Source (wholesaler in Charlotte). I recently bough a fantastic rug from there, for not much money. I live across the country, so didn’t see it in person before buying, but I’m very happy with it and the quick shipping.

      • Anonymous

        Yes, I had a cat pee on my jute rug and I had to throw it out. And it was new. I just could not clean it and get the smell out no matter what I did.

    • The original Scarlett

      Awful to keep clean,I love the look but worst rugs I’ve ever had. To the question below, I source a lot of rugs on Overstock but not all are wool. For higher quality options, I quite like Lulu and Georgia

    • Hollis

      I only buy wool rugs as we walk around barefoot in our home. I’ve bought several good quality rugs at reasonable prices from Overstock.com. The only downside is that some of them shed for years. So, i also recommend an iRobot to go with your wool rug.

    • ANON

      I have a couple of dogs and love my rugs from Ruggable. They aren’t soft, squishy rugs but are decent quality and wash like a dream.

  18. Anonymous

    Reposting from yesterday afternoon –
    How big of a problem is this?
    If your new boss (small law firm) said that there are time-keeping “boondoggles” during the day and provided examples of billing attorney time for time spent by a paralegal on a declaration (separate and apart from attorney review time) and a legal research project that was accomplished much faster than the client would expect so billing additional time.
    How big of a yellow/red flag would this raise for you? Would you immediately start looking for a new job? And if so, how would you explain to potential employers the reasons you’re looking after such a short period of time?

    • Lily

      So you’re defrauding your clients? Yes, major red flag and I would refuse to participate and start looking ASAP (if not quit immediately).

    • Carmen Sandiego

      Unfortunately, I think things like this are common and I think lots of lawyers pad their time. (I have often wondered over the course of my practice why my hours are lower than everyone else’s, and eventually came to suspect this was the answer.) Obviously, you shouldn’t do it, but I don’t think you have to look for a new job immediately, unless you’re starting to get a lot of pressure to do the same. A casual comment, I would ignore.

      • Anonymous

        Are you kidding? Your advice to a licensed professional and officer of the court is to continue working for someone who is criminally defrauding clients and breaching ethical duties governed by the bar? Because all lawyers do it? I am a lawyer and I do not do this. I am an officer of the court and my job is to maintain the high ethical standards imposed upon me as a professional. I take this very, very seriously and would expect every one of my colleagues to, as well. We are given the utmost respect in society and deemed exceptional for a reason. Because we earn it. I cannot believe you are suggesting we can simply ignore those standards. Perhaps this is why people are losing respect for the profession I worked my whole life to join because I wanted to be a part of an elite group.
        OP – Run and report.

        • Cat

          +1, I was disappointed to see Carmen’s comment too.

          I don’t think you have to resign immediately, but while you job hunt, I would be absolutely clear that you are only billing for time worked. Perhaps suggest to the partner that he negotiate a fixed fee for similar project work in the future.

          If this guy pads his bills routinely, the community will know why you’re looking.

        • Carmen Sandiego

          I’m sorry my comment disappointed you guys, but I don’t think what I said is untrue. I also think now maybe isn’t the best time to be looking for a new job at a law firm because of, ya know, the pandemic and all of the uncertainty, but maybe I’m wrong. I also think that OP should know that switching firms might not solve this problem, and she very well may encounter it or something similar to it again at some point in the future, wherever she is. Absolutely, OP should not pad her bills, and sure, if she’s comfortable, she can say “I only billed for the time I actually spent working on it.” I just feel like this is something that you can refuse to participate in and try to wait it out until things (i.e. the world generally) gets better for job searching.

          • Anon

            The best time to job search is when you want to switch jobs. Staying at an unethical firm until the pandemic is over is a terrible idea. (FYI, I switched law firms in July, and it wasn’t my only offer.)

            My advice? LEAVE. I once realized a partner was padding his time when I reviewed his bills. You know why I was reviewing his bills? Because the firm just pushed him out. He got a couple of malpractice claims filed against him and was sanctioned in a couple of cases in a year. Bad behavior catches up to people, and he has a bad reputation now.

            Someone who has these billing practices is a problem. Start looking for a job now.

      • Anon Probate Atty

        I have the same observation. I’ve even received bills (on behalf of a client) from attorneys who padded their time for hearing and hearing prep when I *know* it didn’t take that long, because I was at the same hearing. It is commonplace, although I’m surprised the partner would instruct you to do this. I would start looking, as this is over-the-top and likely indicative of other problems.

    • MJ

      This would be a big red flag from me, but boss doesn’t do my timesheets. Dishonest billing is ethically wrong, against bar rules and fraud. I’d call that right out and express my discomfort, even if it were a passing comment. I don’t ever want someone to think that I am OK with being unethical. Ever. Even if it’s my boss.

    • Anon

      Make sure it is not time worded in a way that is clearer to the client as opposed to fraud. For example, I may have my assistant take a stab at a document. I bill for the time I spend talking to her about it and reviewing and editing her work. (I know you said this is not reviewing the paralegal’s work but does it include the time before assigning it?) I don’t break it down to discuss X with assistant, answer 7 of assistant’s questions, proof read and edit ….

      I just bill “prepare motion to continue.” Someone at my firm might think, oh Anon’s assistant actually wrote that but I’m only billing for work I did addressing that, not her time writing it.

      Also, have my cases are contingent so it doesn’t even matter though I am required by firm to track my time as if they were hourly.

      Last point, I realized that some of the older people I work with don’t so much pad their time, they just don’t use the technology we use to track our time down to the second. They often just use a scratch pad where they note what they are working on. At the end of the day they say hmmm I worked 8 hours, 1 was probably admin, I spent most of my time on the Jones matter so 4.5 there, I spent a good chunk of time on the Smith matter so 1.5 there ….

      Whereas us newer attorneys are using the timers in billing software or other tracking software that give us a more precise metric. The older guys also tend to round up where women, particularly young women, tend to round down at their detriment.

      • Anonymous

        I may be “normal” but that doesn’t make it right. I joined this profession to be better not “normal.” I expected others had the same intentions. We are treated as better for a reason.

        • OP re Padding Time

          OP here re padding hours. Thanks, everyone. To be clear, I told the partner that I was not comfortable with billing “boondoggles.” S/He is not telling me I have to do it and I won’t. It does make me wonder whether s/he might pad my time for me or claim some of my attorney time as her/his own. I realize some other attorneys pad their time but don’t think that makes it right and am concerned about making a long-term commitment at a firm that does this “from the top”, not to mention it may put me at a disadvantage when trying to make hours. Just really disappointing, but I appreciate that others are similarly disturbed by the practice (and also that the partner said it so openly to me).

  19. Z

    I’m starting a new position on Monday. It’s a lateral move and I’m very excited/nervous. The move is backed by my current management, they think its essential I spend time in this role for my professional development and to progress in the company. I’m 3 years out of college and this will be my first move since joining the company. The workload will be a lot more intense than I’m used to. I’ve worked with my new supervisor and his team many times over the last couple of years while in my current position.
    I guess my question is how do you hit the ground running in new intense position? Biggest tips for a young professional to make a good impression in a new role?

  20. Anonymous

    My cat wants to be able to see me at all times. Sometimes she jumps on my desk. I swear she knows that people can see her on Zoom and wants to get closer. She yowls if I have a closed door between us. In early WFH, it was cute to see pets. Now that I have more virtual hearings, I don’t want judges to see my cat or my cat’s butt. Anyone with a cat who has figured this out? I tried food but she scarfs it and comes back to my door/room.

    • Diana Barry

      I close the cats in the room with their water/litter box when I have a video call that is important. You might also start closing her in the room for short periods of time before you need to (like randomly during the day) to see if the yowling decreases.

    • Anon

      You need two doors between you, not one, and even better if they’re on different floors. Set up food, water, litter, and a nest for her that includes bedding that smells like you, such as an unwashed tee shirt.

    • Anon

      I have two cats. One of my cats likes to complain all day about wanting canned food, which he gets, but only at dinner time. He has dry food available at all times but obviously that’s just cat abuse, in his view.

      I mention all of this because he has somehow decided that if I’m not going to give him canned food, then he will ask the nice people on the zoom call. He can be sound asleep but will wake up and come into my office – which has a door that shuts not does not latch, and he can open it – and demand canned food. He has a distinctive asking for food yowl and it is exactly that voice.

      He does the same with any live guests to my house, in pre-pandemic times.

      Honestly, sometimes I just excuse myself and put him outside (yes, he’s indoor/outdoor), but a couple of my frequent zoom buddies think it’s hilarious and will call his name and ask if he wants canned food.

  21. Deedee

    Question for those of you WFH with spouses/roommates, how are you handling your work spaces? I’ve been home since March, along with my spouse, and we are both likely from home at least through 2020. We have finally purchased two desks but both have been working out of our office/extra bedroom. My mother lives with us (her bedroom is on the main level), so we don’t want to put one our desks in the living/room. She tries to keep quiet during working hours but she is 1. Deaf, so mixed success at knowing what’s loud… and 2. has a hard time not interrupting me when I’m in the communal space. The only other space is our bedroom, but I worry about the sleep hygiene issues and the stress that would come from looking at one of our desks in there all the time. On the other hand, it might be a relief not to have to coordinate call times with each other to ensure we aren’t taking external or important calls at the same time. Today he hopped on an unplanned call before a client-facing scheduled call of mine, which I ended up taking from our bedroom anyway, so maybe I should just suck it up. Anyway, thoughts welcomed.

    • anon

      I would move a desk into the bedroom. You could put up a room divider between your desk and bed for sleep hygiene, some separation of work/life, and keeping your bed out of your Zoom background.

      • Cat

        +1. For sleep hygiene I would also be extra careful to put work “away” when you are done for the day – is there a pretty blanket or throw, for example, you could use to cover your desk after shutting down?

        Also, with nice fall weather around the corner, could you work outside – do you have a deck?

    • Anon

      Could you make a space in your bedroom specifically for calls? That way either one of you can move in there and have a comfortable space with a neutral background but neither of you has that as your main workspace or has to look at a desk when you’re trying to sleep.

      Unless one of your jobs is very call/video conference heavy, I would lean towards designating the home office as quiet workspace and having whoever needs to do something disruptive move somewhere else instead of forcing the person working quietly out of their main workspace.

      • Struggle Bus

        +1 I like this idea! I live in a studio apartment so I’m always in the same room but I enjoy taking calls/videos from another place in my apartment for a change of scenery.

    • Away Game

      I just bought a small folding desk and a desk chair to put in a corner of the bedroom. We have teenagers and an open floor plan but not a home office.

  22. Anon

    What do you do when you’re working with a dinosaur client who still uses Internet Explorer but then gets mad at you when things don’t work well on modern websites (which my organization designed on a free, popular platform)? This client is basically demanding I “fix” Internet Explorer instead of upgrading her browser (“inaction is not an option.”) Apparently I’m also not allowed to suggest that she put in a ticket with her organization’s IT department to address the weird issues she’s having with IE, none of which we are able to replicate when we dig up our IE browsers to check it out. I’m at a loss for what I’m supposed to say in this meeting tomorrow where she expects “solutions.”

    • Anon

      I didn’t even think IE existed; I thought Microsoft had switched to Edge. All I can offer are sympathies.

      • Jeffiner

        My company, a Fortune 500 technology innovator, uses IE for everything internal. It’s terrible.

        • Anon

          Every company I’ve worked for or consulted with uses explorer.

          To the OP, the customer wants Explorer. Is it easy enough for you to make an explorer version of your product? Are you just being stubborn because you think she shouldn’t be using it? The clients pay the bills.

    • Anonymous

      Solution is that everyone insures they are running IE version XYZ or whatever she should have. Find some stat about how basically everyone has this version of IE so it’s the most widely used and appropriate. Action item for meeting attendees: If anyone is unsure if they have the correct IE version, contact their IT dept.

      If she’s still resistant I’d be inclined to say it sounds like her computer night have a virus because it seems to have issues that other computers are not having and she should contact IT.

      • Anon

        She is running the current version of IE, which Microsoft still “supports,” but does not make enhancements to. Microsoft also recommends that no one use IE, but this woman insists that that is what she is going to use. I honestly think banging my head against the wall would be more effective at getting “solutions” than talking to her at all…

        • Anonymous

          Are you designing a website for her? If so, her request that you design something that works on a currently supported version of IE is not unreasonable. She may know her market and plenty of older people don’t regularly update their browsers or are more comfortable using a browser they are familiar with. Can you put a ‘click here if you are using Internet Explorer’ button on the website and have it link to a simplified version of the website?

          • Anon

            The website was designed a year ago on a platform that IS compatible with Internet Explorer – we confirmed that at the time and again today. The client is using IE and having all these bizarre formatting issues, which no one else is having in any browser (the website is a bit slow in IE, but there’s nothing we can do about that since Microsoft doesn’t update it anymore to meet new website standards). I think the problem is actually more that the client’s version of IE has some issue (maybe a virus or a bad firewall patch at her organization or something), but she’s resistant to the message “hey, you need to talk to your IT department about this” and is insistent that we “make it work in IE.”

          • Anonymous

            Make a video of it working in IE on someone else’s computer. Send her the video. Explain that this demonstrates it works on IE and therefore if she is having issues it is her computer not IE and she needs to contact IT to see if she has a virus.

    • Ribena

      Make a video of it working in IE on someone else’s computer. Send her the video. Explain that this demonstrates it works on IE and therefore if she is having issues it is her computer not IE and she needs to contact IT to see if she has a virus.

      • Cat

        lol I know this comment means well, but a woman who is still using IE would not understand what half your words mean :)

        • Ribena

          I have written explainers of how it works – it helps that Bing now has a QR code generator built in so you don’t even have to go to another site, and also that now 95% of smartphones have QR code readers built into their camera apps.

    • Anonymous

      So you are a consultant who’s built her a website? What browser compatibility was agreed upon up front?

      • Anon

        I addressed this above, but we chose a platform (Wix) that supports Internet Explorer to meet the client’s need However, Wix (and Microsoft) do not recommend using IE because it’s bad, old, and no longer updated, so there is no guarantee that it will continue to work well as modern websites introduce new features and APIs and so on. There is honestly nothing I can do to make this website work better in IE – it’s a dead browser that less than 2% of people use and performance issues should be expected. I just know the client won’t want to get with the times, though.

        • Anonymous

          This contradicts what you said above though which is that it works with IE just not her IE on her computer. If she’s the client and she wants you to design a website that works with her preferred browser, then that is not unreasonable. If you don’t design for Ie you should specify that. While 2% of overall users may use IE, if she has an older than average clientele it may be higher and it’s reasonable to want a website that works for your customer base.

      • Anon

        Design on a headless platform, like Contentstack or Contentful or Sitecore and this should not happen….

    • Struggle Bus

      commiseration. This is my boss. Patience, understanding (“I understand, that’s so frustrating!” – even if you’re faking it) and repetition are your best friends here. You can only do what you can do, you’re not a magician. Shrugs.

    • Anon

      You can make a version that works with her old version of IE as well as modern versions. This is fairly easy for a developer to do and you probably already know which old version of IE she’s using so you have everything you need. Whether or not this is in your scope is another point entirely, but as someone who has worked in this field her request isn’t crazy.

  23. Anon Probate Atty

    This is embarrassing, but does anyone have a remedy for severe gas? Last night I had gas pains that were so bad I was doubled over in pain, moaning and crawling on the floor. After about 30 minutes of agony, it began to dissipate and I was able to go to sleep with the help of sleep meds. My husband had his appendix removed a few years ago and luckily I knew the exact spot for appendix pain (which is not where the pain was); otherwise, I would have gone to the hospital thinking it had ruptured, it was that painful. I feel 90% better this morning, although my stomach is still somewhat off. Last night I took Pepto and Tums but neither worked. I have taken Gas-X in the past but it was ineffective. Anyone have suggestions or input?

    • feel better!

      If it’s that bad and the Gas X isn’t touching it I would talk to a doctor. I have bad gas pains too but a few Gas X will treat it. Other things you can try are exercising and peppermint or chamomile tea.

    • Anonymous

      LOTS of Gas-X. I don’t think that you can’t OD on it. I start with 3 if I am in pain and see if that doesn’t make a dent in the pain.

    • Anonymous

      Nope. I get these from time to time bc of my IBS. They can feel so bad that feel like I might pass out from the pain. I just have to bear through the pain. Gas-X hasnt been that effective. Sometimes a heating pad across my stomach helps.

    • Anon

      Did you try looking up yoga poses or other positions for releasing gas? I’ve had luck releasing painful gas by doing certain recommended positions.

      • Kitten

        Yes, this. Sorry if this is TMI but there are certain poses that release gas I didn’t even know I had.

    • Anon Probate Atty

      Thanks, you all. Going to buy Gas-X today just in case I have another episode. I have been having other symptoms of perimenopause (getting flushed and hot, memory loss, and bad PMS symptoms) and I wonder if it’s related.

      • asdf

        Take Gas-X now, before you have another episode. You don’t want the gas to build up as badly as it did.

    • Diana Barry

      Where was it located? When I had gallstones it felt just like gas. My pain started on the right but was diffuse throughout my abdomen.

      • Anon Probate Atty

        The pain was worst in the upper right part of my abdomen. From what I read, that’s where the gall bladder is. I went ahead and booked a dr. appt for Friday to get it checked out. Better safe than sorry.

      • Anon

        +1. My gallbladder felt like this after I ate fatty food. The severe pain seemed to come out of nowhere to me at the time though. Problem was solved when it was removed.

    • pugsnbourbon

      Ugh gas pain is the worst. +1 to the Gas-X advice. I lay on my stomach if I can manage it. I’ve also found that getting inverted helps, so I’ll kick up and do a handstand against the wall until it moves. Or you could get one of those inversion tables, which are fun even when you aren’t gassy.

      • Anon

        The best thing that has worked for my husband when he gets like this is air bicycle. You lay on your back, try to get your hips off the ground, and kick your legs like you’re cycling. The position helps to move the gas bubbles, um, closer to where they need to exit, and moving the legs also helps them along.

        • Anon

          Haha they tell you to do this with babies! “Bicycle” their legs to get the gas out. Mylicon (which I think is sold as Gas X for adults?) also helped.

    • Sunshine

      If you’re sure it’s gas, please disregard. If not, are you familiar with what gallbladder attacks or kidney stones feel like? Symptoms can vary for different people so it can be hard to know exactly what’s going on. I thought my gallbladder issues were reflux until I found out they weren’t. I knew what the kidney stone was right away due to location and because they run in the family. If it happens again, you may want to have your gallbladder and/or kidneys checked.

      • Anon Probate Atty

        Not completely sure if it was gas. I researched gallbladder pain and found that supposedly gallbladder pain does not change when you move positions. Last night lying on my side was painful, but trying to stand up/sit up/walk was completely excruciating. The pain started with churning noises in my stomach. So I thought it was gas. I might book a dr. appt just in case.

        • Anon

          I think that would be a good idea. I have IBS so I’m familiar with uncomfortable gas but this sounds extreme to me.

    • Coach Laura

      Painful, awful gas was my main symptom of celiac disease, so if you go to a doctor, have them run the blood test for that too.

  24. aanon

    I’ve just found out that our company will be moving to permanent full time WFH. I’m actually great with this, except I live (with my husband and dog) in a very small (think 600 sq. ft.) apartment.
    Right now I’m working on my dining table (which is in the open concept living/kitchen room) but we’re really feeling the mental stress, as well as the space and decor pinch of having a full office set up (including second monitor and office chair) right beside the kitchen counter and living room couch. It’s like a permanent and ugly reminder of work all the time, and I’m finding it hard to shut off at the end of the day.
    Does anyone have any suggestions for blogs or resources where I can get inspiration for making this very necessary function a little more attractive/useful?

    • Ribena

      Can you look for a bureau/ roll-top type desk, so that you can physically cover up your workspace at the end of the day? Ikea has one in the Hemnes range – item number 302.457.13 – so you can see what I mean.

    • Elderlyunicorn

      I recently saw an article (I can’t remember where, I’m so sorry!) that had some gorgeous workspaces that people carved out of their closets. I know, especially in a small apartment closet/storage space is at a premium but if you do a little searching, it might spark some inspiration.

  26. Sloan Sabbith

    If anyone is new to the Hamilton train or wants more, I recently read the books My Dear Hamilton (from Eliza’s POV) and America’s First Daughter (from Peggy Jefferson’s POV) and loved them both. Well researched but engaging nonetheless. Same author duo for both.

    They also were part of writing Ribbons of Scarlett about the French Revolution, which I would not recommend. Boring as hell.

  27. Anon

    I’m sure there is a huge range but how much do partners make at a midsize firm in a place like Minneapolis

    • Anonymous

      I think the ranges at midsized firms in secondary markets are probably even more all over the map than you would think. Some follow big law for associates, some are far off.

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