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Coffee Break: Shiloh Penny Loafer

penny loafer with prominent sole with lug details and a bit of a platform

I've been noticing that loafers are getting taller, particularly in the sense of thick soles and even platforms.

This Rag & Bone shoe (pictured) is a great example — I like how it feels substantially different from heeled loafers as well as the classic penny loafer. I also think the lug sole would be great for winter!

The shoe is available in sizes 5-11 for $395.

Looking for something similar but more affordable? These Seychelles loafers are $159 at Nordstrom and Amazon (which also has some colors on sale).

Just want some basic loafers? Some of our favorite loafers for work are these Sam Edelman loafers that we've featured before, as well as these sleek Steve Madden ones that come in regular and wide widths. If you want something more classic, readers love Sperry; if you want comfort, Vionic has a bunch. Meanwhile, if you want something a bit more feminine or slouchy, the Tory Burch loafers are all really highly rated at Nordstrom (especially this “ballet loafer“)!

Sales of note for 12.5

165 Comments

  1. Posted late today so hopefully more people see it here – Anyone here feel like they are objectively well off but do not live like a well off person at all? Why – like is it due to where you live, money anxiety, just not liking the fancy life, something else?

    If you wanted to start to enjoy your wealth – or you have done so – what are things you’ve done to make use of it in ways you enjoy?

    1. Yes, that is me for sure, after growing up with extremely limited resources I so do not want that as an adult.
      After describing this very thing to a friend I was assigned to buy the good stuff once per month in
      whatever category strikes my fancy. It has gotten easier; however I will not lie, the inner little me still gets
      shaky doing so.
      I have to be really mindful about “allowing”.

      I still live well below my means, that is a choice. Small house, small wardrobe, good serviceable car.

    2. I live below my means because the main thing that money buys me is security and freedom. I can take time off if I want without worrying about my bills. (I actually did that to address my pandemic burnout). I feel comfortable saying no to projects I dislike, and I don’t feel pressed to bill a ton of hours for the bonus. The last several years have been economically bonkers, but I’ve felt okay the whole time. I live in an area where I feel safe. I love my kids’ public school system. We can go on vacation. When I had medical problems I never worried about paying those bills. This all brings me more peace than a new car or new clothes.

      I’ve relaxed my spending the last few years to outsource more at home and to go on vacation more often. And see Beyoncé!!!!

    3. i mean… we have a lot in savings and investments, the idea of actually TOUCHING those makes me incredibly nervous, to the point where i have don draper in my head shouting THAT’S WHAT THE MONEY’S FOR! when we want to take crazy vacations or think about things like new cars or whatever. instead i’ll bend over backwards to budget it out of incoming money (but then i get a bit nervous that we’re not putting that same money into savings).

    4. Our HHI is $300k in an LCOL area and we have one child. We live within our means, but looking around I wonder if we are living above our means. We spend on vacations (usually one big family trip) and housekeeping once a month. Some of my colleagues who make more than me never go on vacation, or their vacation will be a camping trip. Last year my boss’ big vacation was to the Upper Peninsula (we’re in MI). I get that not everyone prioritizes vacations. And maybe their HHI is less than ours, or their families are larger, or a number of other things. I think it may also be that many of them grew up in rural areas with fewer resources and are not used to indulging once in a while. It’s not just vacations, but also the occasional spa treatment, restaurants, new clothes…nothing too excessive. Just an observation that I seem to spend more money on myself than they do.

      1. I think some people (definitely not me) genuinely like camping, it can be less complicated with kids in tow, and the UP is gorgeous. Doesn’t have to be for financial reasons.

      2. I think “living above your means” has more to do with being in debt and not saving enough vs what other people are doing.

        Our HHI is $180k in a LCOL and we spend a LOT on travel relative to our income. But we aren’t big spenders otherwise, and we have some life circumstances that make us more financially secure than many people with similar incomes (e.g., grandparents helping with college savings) so we feel comfortable with it. We have robust retirement savings and no debt, and I don’t consider us to be living above our means.

    5. I think part of it is not finding anything status based / keeping up with the Joneses very rewarding (it’s still rewarding — I am pretty shallow — but just not rewarding enough to really get me to spend money on it).

      A lot of it is that a lot of my family is not well off, and it’s not like I could afford to take care of them all, so I don’t feel that secure?

      I’m in USA where healthcare costs can be unpredictable, and my household has high healthcare expenses. A lot of times I feel like I’m living in limbo waiting to learn what the insurance company is really going to charge. It’s irrational in that it’s within budget, there are out of pocket maximums, and it’s not really that different from suddenly needing an expensive house or car repair, but I think the anxiety around bodies failing gets mixed up with the anxiety around the expense for me. It keeps me from spending money I really do want to spend (e.g. on window treatments, or landscaping, or travel). It doesn’t help that sometimes things aren’t covered and end up out of pocket.

    6. It’s single-income and the general I-grew-up-poor-so-I-think-like-a-poor-person. For example, I would love to have an updated kitchen, but my house didn’t come with one, and I can’t wrap my head around getting rid of the perfectly functional yet outdated kitchen just because the countertop isn’t granite and the cabinets are old. It seems unnecessarily wasteful. I also only have myself to depend on, whether it’s income, mortgage payment, health insurance, or retirement savings so if I effed up in money management there is no bailing me out.

    7. Some of us are content with less? IDK. Travel is fine, but I don’t have a strong desire to blow five figures on vacations every year. Once in awhile, sure. But it’s not a huge priority. Personal care services? Haircut and color are as fancy as it gets. I drive a newer car, but a luxury car would be wasted on me because IDAF. For me, having security IS enjoying my wealth. I don’t stress about paying bills. I don’t stress about the cost of groceries. I know that if we have an emergency, I will probably be able to cover the resulting costs without it impacting my day-to-day very much. We can cover the costs of our kids going to college in-state. I have what I need and many things that I want. I feel financial peace. I’m not sure how much more I need to enjoy it?

    8. Honest answer, it wasn’t until we had about 500k in investment accounts that the money anxiety over spending money went away. Yes, I know VERY privileged answer but, for us, that was the number that I conceptually knew, we would have enough to be ok. It was also the number that I knew that we had enough that I could say F-it, sell everything and move back to my home country (and be ok). Everyone’s number is different.

    9. I am like that. HHI for me (41) and my husband is around 350 kUSD in a LCOL area, but we live a more frugal life than most of our peers.

      Part of it is because I spent the first half of my childhood in a socialist/communist country, and building personal wealth or displaying it was not something that was encouraged or even achievable for my parents and grandparents (unless they joined the priviledged ruling class within that system, which they did not want to). Basic needs were always met. After the iron curtain came down, things like vacations in other countries were still very expensive, and the job and economic situation quite uncertain. Also, taking risks like buying things on credit or having a mortgage were not comfortable for my parents – only around age 50 did they do something like it when they otherwise had built a financial buffer.
      With that background, I am not much of risk taker, and living a “rich” lifestyle has never been a desirable concept for me.

      My husband’s background is quite different, but he is quite frugal and looks at every purchase with a focus on the 3 questions “Does this have value/brings a great experience?” and “Is this a need vs. a want?” and “How much effort is it?”

      We also moved twice internationally and changed careers multiple times, so there’s always an underlying element of uncertainty whether we’ll later need money because of a move or change of jobs. We plan to retire early-ish (I’m thinking at around 55), and we save money, invest in building passive income streams lik rental property, and maximize retirement contributions and tax savings.

      We drive our cars as long as they are safe (going on 20 years with a Mercedes Benz). We spend money on family visits and vacation in Europe twice a year (but flying Economy). We get take-out twice a week, and go on a number of weekend trips, but stay in modest hotels because we are outdoorsy and all we really need is a bed to sleep and a hot shower. I work from home 99% of the time so I don’t need a fancy wardrobe, I don’t really like getting my hair or nails done except for maybe 2 pedicures a year, and I have curly hair so getting a cut every 4-6 months is more than enough. We don’t have expensive hobbies either – hiking, some crafts, but nothing requiring expensive equipment or classes.
      Like the poster above, we haven’t remodeled our kitchen even though it’s 18 years old – it is in good shape, fully functional, and bigger than any kitchen I would have dreamed of when were living in an apartment. The thought of having to spend so much time on designing and remodeling a perfect home makes me anxious – so many decisions to make regarding things I really don’t care about that much (countertops? cabinet color? window treatments? tiles/laminate/hardwood floor?). I would feel obliged to research everything properly in order to even form an opinion about what I like and want, to justify spending so much money… When actually we’re quite content with what we have. And we have enough upkeep to do with the occasional repair…

      In some sense, I value my own time and money too much to spend it on things I don’t really care about, and prefer living a simple life to making my life more complex with more status items or activities.

    10. I have done all of these….

      Buying art and carpets that I love, that makes me go aaaahhhhh when I walk into the room
      Indulged my love of jewellery. No faux, just the real stuff. Makes me and everyone else go aaahhhh
      Vacations
      Fancy skincare
      The occasional massage
      Donated heftily to charity

      1. This is exactly me. I don’t save as much as some people here but I am certainly still above the curve relative to most people. I like to live my life and enjoy nice things.

  2. Post from this morning reminded me – what is your fun fact for corporate purposes?

    FWIW I’m a lawyer who has only worked in biglaw and government and have never had this type of thing come up. But with a corporate job lined up to start next year, I’m kind of like – IDK what I would say if asked on day 1?

    I remember this question coming up like in college if a professor was interested in knowing the students on day 1 and the fun facts were interesting – like I starred in a movie or went to Olympic trials in my sport. I have NOTHING that is that interesting about me but I’m guessing in average corporate America, most don’t. FWIW I’m not married, no kids or pets – though IDK if those are the type of facts people share in these things anyway.

      1. Are you my sister? Both my brother and sister still have a lone baby tooth and they’re in their 50s

    2. Mine is always that Tom Cruise follows me on Twitter (I have no idea why, my Twitter is private and locked down and I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned him).

      1. I’m jealous of you!!!! 6 for me, but that last one makes it a lot more impressive.

      2. I’m working on this one. Hitting 5 and 6 next year and hope to get to 7 in 2024!

    5. My fun fact is usually that my personal library is about 3.000 books. So not particularly funny, but perhaps a bit unusual.

        1. Heh to fractions of books – three thousand, written euro style (I didn’t know that was a thing)

    6. Not for a non political workplace but I ask my students their first political memory (which makes me feel aged… Brexit…) but we asked it at a departmental meeting and got fascinating answers which spoke to why people were political scientists.

      If you have to do them, I think something you’re looking forward to, what you are reading/watching, etc. Something neutral people can bring up in chitchat.

      1. One of my earliest memories is watching news coverage of the Berlin wall coming down.

      2. As a fellow political science person, I love this. I remember being 6 and getting to stay up late to watch Bill Clinton play sax on Arsenio Hall.

      3. August 1991 coup attempt in Moscow. I remember watching the news and being scared the tanks would come to our house. I lived in Moscow, but nowhere close to the part where the tanks were. My first economic memory though is inflation, which is probably why I majored in Economics (I am not an economist).

    7. I don’t have a good one. My hobbies (reading, travel, baking) are super generic. I am married with a kid, but again that’s not unique and not something I tend to share a lot about at work anyway. I normally just say I love elephants.

      1. I think this is perfect actually. My fun fact is that I make a great cinnamon roll/whatever your specialty is. Workplace appropriate, and forgettable enough (which is how I prefer it).

      1. I have that one! And the gene that makes me smell ants when they swarm.

        Did you know asparagus pee is genetic? Everyone’s asparagus pee smells the same but only people with the gene can smell it.

    9. I used to be a Spanish teacher (I am an MD in finance – blows their minds. Thanks, TFA).

    10. My fun fact is that I’m a yoga teacher who owns a small yoga studio. Or that I love skydiving and have been 13 times and go every year in the spring.

    11. Either I am a twin or the only time I’ve been to Canada was by accident. (plane had to make an unscheduled landing in Gander due to a medical emergency on board)

    12. I usually say that I’m learning to climb frozen waterfalls. This has been true for the last 5+ years because climbing frozen waterfalls is HARD and humbling.

    13. I would go with hobbies – running road races, pets, genre of movie that you love, types of books you read, bands you always see in concert. Give your coworkers something to chat with you about that aren’t pain points (dysfunctional or violent family, medical issues, recent divorce, etc).

    14. First job if it’s not related to your current job—cookie decorator was a fun one I heard. Favorite book if it’s not a cliche. Interesting skill or hobby.

      Some fun facts I’ve used are:
      My first job was playing in an orchestra
      I am a genuine valley girl from the San Fernando Valley (I live on the east coast so this is a novelty)
      I was once cast as an extra in a Julia Roberts movie and then fired for being younger than she was

    15. I have to do this for work a lot and I just don’t like getting into anything too personal, so I always say I love dumpings and can tell you where to get the best dumplings in town.

      1. This is good because the everyone will want to come ask you where to go for dumplings and you will get to chat with them.

  3. My 8 year old says she likes Taylor Swift, and is showing interest in my record player (but not my records, sadly!). She mostly listens to her at friends houses, and I don’t really know much about Taylor Swift. If I wanted to buy her a Taylor Swift record — which album should I get?

    2. I’d start with Fearless and 1989 for an 8 year old. Maybe Midnights if she likes the songs that have been on the radio the last year or so.

    3. For your 8 year old I would probably recommend Speak Now (Taylor’s Version), which was recently rereleased. It’s not super “grown up”. You could also just ask what her favorite song is and buy her that album. While some songs have adult themes it’s not typically bad language and I think many of the lyrical twists will go over her head. :)

    5. I have 8 year old Taylor Swift fan twins and I would say 1989 (Taylor’s version). Midnights has a fair amount of swear words, FWIW.

    6. My seven year old’s favorite Swift album is Red (Taylor’s Version) but she really likes Fearless too. Anything expect Reputation should be good though.

    7. +1 for 1989, that is my 6 year old’s favorite Taylor Swift album.

      Also keep an eye out for local Taylor-themed things that she might enjoy. My small city has had a ton of Taylor-themed ‘parents night out’ events in the last few months.

    8. For an 8 year old I’d go early Taylor–Speak Now or Fearless. Red and 1989 are clean lyrics-wise but have some more adult themes. Speak Now and Fearless might be a bit easier for her to relate to. Her debut album is really cute too but is a country album and sounds a lot different from her current music which your daughter is probably more familiar with.

  4. Can I vent a little? Over the last two weeks I have received a life changing diagnosis. There are ways to manage it but no way to “fix” it. I finally got in with a specialist yesterday and while describing some of my symptoms I got a little teary eyed. I get that he can’t fix it, but he immediately responded to my teary eyed-ness by offering to prescribe me an antidepressant.

    I get that antidepressants are life saving for many but it felt kind of like “why are you crying in my office? Cheer up, woman. Take a pill” – am I not allowed to be even a little upset about this?

    I’m just frustrated I guess.

    1. I’m so sorry to hear this. It’s completely normal to be upset about a diagnosis for which there’s no cure.
      Something similar happened to me: I was upset and that got recorded in my medical records as health anxiety and ‘being too focussed on my symptoms’. I changed doctors and am doing much better.
      You are right, your doctor is insensitive and that was not the right thing for them to do.
      Sending you best wishes.

    2. Wow, what terrible manner. Obviously you are in a state of shock and concern. As your Internet friend, you are absolutely allowed to cry, unprompted, and not need to be offered antidepressants.

    3. It’s about him not you and it’s a lot about a male dr being uncomfortable with a female crying. You’re allowed to be frustrated and cry of course.

      FWIW having a cardiology thing myself, I’ve found that young male cardiologists and frankly some older males too brush off any concern about it as – NBD it’s fixable, when it needs to be fixed, we’ll fix it, we do it all the time. And if you respond in any way besides a cheery OMG YES, you’re seen as an anxious woman. It was validating when I ran into an older male cardiologist who was like – I’m not criticizing you for being anxious, you have people talking about opening your chest!? I wish those types of drs could train other drs., but reality is those types are rare.

    4. Just for context, I think the offer was less about “cheer up woman” and more about the fact that many patients dealing with a life changing diagnosis do become temporarily very anxious/depressed, have never been so before, and don’t know that they are or how to ask for help. It’s not unusual for people to take meds to get through a very stressful situation.

      I also received a life changing diagnosis, and was offered valium (which I took) while in the hospital to help with my anxiety. The delivery was much better, as they noted it was totally appropriate to feel sad and anxious but that it was also ok to take medication to help me get through the first push of treatment. My specialist noted he regularly prescribes antidepressants to patients going through active treatment as needed. I think this is about ensuring you know you have access to support if you needed, even if the delivery wasn’t ideal.

      1. Valium can make anyone feel less anxious whether they have an anxiety disorder or not, so that I think is really different from an antidepressant that can be counterproductive in someone who isn’t depressed? If he had wanted to be helpful, I feel he could have offered to refer to a mental health professional, support group, etc.

        1. Agree with this completely.

          The doctor was insensitive. They should know better.

          They can also ask a couple of questions, and leave an open door if things get unmanageable to know that there are options for treatment if needed.

      2. My mom’s doctor also followed a similar script and also encourage her to go back to her therapist to process things and have someone to talk to. Bless him as having another person to talk to was great for her (and us).

    5. You are 100% allowed to be upset at this, and it’s completely understandable to be upset. When my mom was diagnosed celiac, she had an “upset” period, which was totally understandable, because her way of life had to change, and frankly change is hard. I’m hoping your path gets smoother as you walk it.

    6. FWIW, when I was diagnosed with cancer and facing a long waiting period before having a treatment plan (because of some additional testing that was needed), my surgeon asked if I wanted to see a psychiatrist who worked with cancer patients. I thought that was a great idea. I saw her a couple of times. She totally validated that how I was feeling and dealing with my health issues was “normal”, which was so helpful.

      I found a support group that I joined and it was very helpful as well.

      All of that to say, adding some additional support at the beginning of a life changing health diagnosis can be a good thing and there are options out there to consider.

  5. Talk to me more about church shopping. I sort of want to believe that. OTOH, I like the church I was born into. I feel like the Catholics are a bit right about how you just go to the closest one, that they should have to deal with all comers in their area, etc., etc. I’m not Catholic, but I get it: parrish boundaries and such. AND YET: in my church, I notably add diversity. Adding diversity is fine. We are all unique and all g-d’s children. But I don’t don’t love it being so . . . obvious. And yet, I feel that there is value to all of us, that we come exactly as we are and that is how it should be. Everyone gets to go to g-d’s house and we ought to be more used to seeing all comers, not just the ones from central casting. I go around and around in my head on this (for a LONG time — statis is a big thing with me). How do you all think about this?

    2. I don’t fully follow either, but very generally:

      – I tend to default to attending my closest parish, for the reasons I think you’re talking about (it’s in my community, being rooted in my community is important to me, maybe being with my less than perfect community is good for me).

      – that said, if you feel out of place in your local church to such an extent that it is preventing you from connecting with God or truly engaging with that congregational community, it’s worth trying someplace else.

    3. I’m not really sure what you are saying…Catholics do not always go to the closest one–that is throw back to when there was less separation of church and state and churches kept birth and death records, marriages, etc. It is, of course, always convenient to go somewhere nearby. I was raised Catholic, and we changed churches when i was about 12 to a church further away that was a bit more modern. Do you feel that the diversity initiatives and statements are too “in your face” at your church? if that is unattractive to you, maybe a different church that practices “inclusiveness” but does not flaunt it might be more comfortable. The main things to consider, in my opinion, is believing in Chr1st as the son of G0d vs. as an important religious leader, and the sacrament of Communi0n. Of course, the beauty of the church, the music, and a good fit with the congregation are important. maybe you are spinning with this, but go visit a number of churches and let your intuition be a guide.

    4. I’m confused. There is a great variety in what churches teach/preach, choose one that aligns with your values and where you feel called by God and at home.

      I go to a church that aligns with my values and the values I want to teach my kids. For me that’s Episcopalian – Women can be priests, priests can marry, communion is not the literal body and blood of Christ but is representative, direct confession, acceptance of LGBTQ+ people, not much emphasis (if any) on ‘going to hell’, not evangelical because I don’t want to ‘convert’ people who are happy in their own faith, welcoming of others (DH’s home church priest will let me take communion even though I’m not Catholic but technically only Catholics are allowed per the Pope), Episcopalian churches allow anyone who is baptized to partake etc.

      DH is Catholic and his dad was a priest before he left the priesthood to marry DH’s mom. We attend Episcopalian church were we live now but do go to Catholic services at the church where his Dad’s BFF is the priest when we are in his hometown.

    5. I don’t have a Catholic background, but I absolutely visit several churches before I commit to really going to one. I went to a church for several years and loved it, but I am the only Black regular attendee so I am church shopping again.

    6. Omg get a grip. If you want to try out churches, just pick one and go. How do you function with this level of handwringing?!

      2. What an unhelpful comment. Obviously there’s a tension between wanting to go to the local community church vs. wanting to go to a church where you don’t stand out as different or risk feeling relatively tokenized. And if other people are going out of their way to find a church of people they relate to better, the people who stick with the community are kind of left behind.

        People have written whole dissertations on this social change; I don’t think one comment noticing the phenomenon from a perspective of experiencing it is handwringing.

    7. I took this as she’s the only one in her church who is of a specific, visible identity. If that’s the case, I get it. I’m often the only WOC in spaces and feel called on to represent “my people” or other weirdness. It’s fine to church shop and find the space that best resonates with you! I give you permission!

    8. While at an intellectual level, I’m always like, “church-shopping is fine!” I know it’s psychologically fraught for me. There are so many things I love about my parish church, but we have a really small group of families with non-baby children and I an envious of friends in more conservative churches that seem to have hot and cold running kids. I know people who have changed parishes because of the kid situation, and I don’t blame them. Though I’d be sad to know that a parishioner was leaving for any reason, being the obvious diversity person sounds tremendously tricky and it’s OK to try and figure out if a different church would be better.

    3. Me too and I don’t miss them! But lots of the 22 year olds in my office have similar shoes, and I applaud them for wearing something much comfier than the heels I felt pressured to wear as a 22 year old in my first office job.

    4. I kind of love them, especially the Seychelles version in light blue. I wish they had my size@

    5. sure but with plaid flares from delia’s with a 2 star-shaped barretts in your hair

  7. Following up on the CPAP machine discussion this morning… is it possible to just buy one? Can your regular PCP prescribe one? Do you really have to your PCP to go to a specialist and then get a study done and then have follow up appointments? That seems like an unnecessary barrier to treatment if there’s such an obvious and easy solution.

    1. It’s medical equipment and not without risk. You also want insurance to pay for it if possible!

    2. We had to buy DH’s through a medical supply store and they needed a prescription from a sleep doctor in order for insurance to cover it. It’s been a giant PITA because it doesn’t quite work well but the medical supply company won’t come back and either adjust the fittings or work with him to make it work or take it back, and insurance won’t pay for another one unless this one is returned. Honestly it was such a process to get the diagnosis, and I am so frustrated that we are so close to getting him real treatment but all the red tape is so exasperating.

    3. I think you need a prescription even to just buy one without insurance since they have some settings and things. Also you may want insurance since they’re overpriced!

      Yes your regular PCP can prescribe one if they want to, but you would still need a sleep study. They can do cheap at-home sleep studies these days though. (In-hospital sleep studies are important if there’s something more complicated going on, but I was told in-home are adequate for getting the information needed to prescribe CPAP for obstructive sleep apnea.)

    4. The sleep specialists are the ones who determines the settings – they are not just plug and play. The settings will be based on the sleep study, which helps identify the actual problem that you are having.

      Sleep studies are great and you should get one! Mine was at home.

      1. +1

        You have to use them with medical guidance, as it takes time to determine the right mask/settings etc… And you have to replace components regularly, and it becomes expensive quickly if your insurance doesn’t cover it.

    5. Your sleep specialist not only determines the machine settings but also monitors over time. Mine can change my settings remotely. You also may not even have apnea—not all snoring is apnea. But it should be ruled out or treated. If insurance gives a choice, do an in office study vs home—my primary told me the home ones aren’t as accurate.

  8. Not to beat a dead horse about the religion questions, but if you belong to a denomination that has a core belief, either doctrinal or social, that you disagree with – what is keeping you in that denomination? Why not try to find a denomination or religion that you can fully believe in?

    For example, there was a comment on this morning’s post that not all Catholics believe in tr@nsubstantiation – if you don’t believe in that why not join a Protestant denomination that still believes in Real Presence? I could be wrong, but to me the belief in tr@nsubstantiation is one of the major things that sets the Catholic Church apart from some Protestants (specifically Episcopalians).

    Or, if you’re in a church that doesn’t fully affirm the LGBT+ community but personally you believe in full, equal rights for that community, why not find a more affirming church? FWIW, I don’t find a “love the sinner, hate the sin” approach to be affirming – especially since I don’t think being LGBT+ is a sin! And, if we are all made in God’s image then aren’t our LBGT+ brothers and sisters also made in His image?

    I’m not trying to stir the pot, but I am generally curious as to why individuals stay in religions that they do not agree with.

    1. Because you will never be 100% on anything. Is your job 100% perfect, your marriage, your political party? I am catholic and believe in birth control. There are very few families in my parish with more than 2 kids so I am not the only one, yet I love the mass. Part of maturity and realizing you take the good with the less good.

      1. Thanks for this perspective. I appreciate you sharing and I have a follow up question.

        My understanding is that the use of contraceptives (so birth control outside of natural family planning) is a sin in the Catholic Church (I believe it’s a mortal sin, but feel free to correct me). My understanding is that Catholics who have committed a moral sin without repenting are unable to participate in the Eucharist (once again please correct if I”m wrong).

        While I know a few Catholics who rely on NFP, most I know use contraceptives. I’m just intrigued by how Catholics who use contraceptives are able to square that while being an active Catholic? I would think that not being able to partake in the Eucharist would be enough to deter me to find a denomination that fits my beliefs better? Or, even if you are still receiving Communion, just the concept of committing mortal sin would be enough to make me rethink things? Especially when there are other denominations that have beautiful liturgies but allow contraception?

        I agree that very few things in life are perfect, but at what point does the “less good” outweigh the “good”?

        1. If you look up poll results, a majority of Catholic women of childbearing age use birth control. Many people I know use it, still receive communion, and I doubt they consider that to be a real mortal sin. There is some eye-rolling on certain topics. I don’t think a lot of people feel the need to adhere to everything the church says.

          1. I guess I just don’t understand why belong to a church that considers something you do every day a mortal sin? Why not find a church that fits your life and beliefs better?

          2. In the Catholic circles I run in, there are plenty of people using NFP. Next up are people using barrier methods, because they don’t jack up your hormones or (as with IUDs) work in part by preventing implantation. Then there are people who have had their 3-5 kids and the husband gets snipped.

            The latter two groups believe that they are obeying enough, if that makes sense. They are married, so it’s not an issue of premarital or extramarital sex. They have kids or wouldn’t abort if they got pregnant. Many have had more than two kids and think they have done their part. Ultimately, for them, it is close enough to the spirit of the requirements (open to life, keep sex within marriage) that they aren’t all that worried.

            Also, churches do a truly dismal job of teaching NFP. They start by having members of the laity teach NFP in pre-Cana, and those people often have two minivans full of kids. There’s nothing wrong with that, but the immediate impression is that NFP is what you do when you want ten kids. It just adds to the incorrect stereotype of NFP being Vatican Roulette. They don’t have the couple with three children in twelve years give the talks, and then they can’t understand why everyone reaches for the Pill.

        2. Most people aren’t trying to win a legal argument. People aren’t black and white. Complexity exists.

        3. There is also a primary intent doctrine, like if I take the pill for acne, it’s fine. If I take it for a rocking good time, that is where the issue is.

          2. How does it work if you take it for acne but then also use it to have a rocking good time?

        4. This kind of question makes me wonder if you’re coming from a protestant and/or American perspective; I feel like there’s a lot of culture of “agree with the church” among protestants and a lot of authoritarianism and clericalism in the American Catholic church? You may have heard jokes about how they make the rules in Europe, but only the Americans follow them… But having a lot of deference and blind obedience for everything the church is pushing isn’t honestly a part of my Catholic heritage (and some of my family were Irish Catholic and their parishes were practically Jansenist). Having some respect for church teaching is part of my heritage, and honestly I think there are some issues to work out with contraception beyond “it’s completely great and fine” or “it’s unacceptable.” Even when one of the church’s views is wrong, I think correcting it over time will involve important work that I don’t see happening, at least from my (catholic) perspective, elsewhere.

          1. So I’m an American Episcopalian. I’m also a queer woman, so a church I feel fully welcomed and accepted in as my true self is important to me.

            When someone belongs to a non-affirming denomination I am definitely wary of them. Even if they’re personally okay with who I am, they still belong to a religion that views me as unworthy. I believe that if you don’t care enough to leave a church that doesn’t respect mr than neither do you.

            FWIW, I do have relatives who left the Catholic Church over loved ones’ sexualities.

          2. I’m glad there is a church where you feel fully welcomed and accepted as your true self. I’ve had other people tell me that before, and others tell me they feel differently, but I do avoid giving money if it’s not earmarked for something I want it to be spent on (vs. something I definitely do not want it spent on by the church).

      2. i stayed for a long while because i believed i liked the ritual and shared background, if that makes sense – like how all comics are catholics and jews? i also am wary of other religions that are less reliant on ritual and tradition because it feels like the priest is like flying by the seat of his pants. i also thought catholicism would matter more when i had kids; i wanted to share those traditions with them.

        i left because i believe in gay rights; equal rights; birth control for all; abortion is between a woman, her doctor, her god, and maybe her partner in that order… i hated the way the catholic church handled the scandals, not to mention the hundreds and hundreds of years of darkness, intolerance, and misogyny that largely falls at the feet of the catholic church.

        i finally realized that my morals conflicted with my religion, and i wanted to be a moral person more than i wanted to be a catholic.

    2. I’m the wrong person to answer this since I left all religion/church when I was in college, but I have no malice to the people in my parents church who essentially helped raise me. I don’t think people stay in religions they don’t agree with as much as they stay in churches that practice religion that they don’t believe in. In my mind, churches are the local people/family that provide actual support, comfort, aid, guidance, and in some cases that matters much more than official religious policies that don’t affect them.

    3. Interesting question. I did some reading earlier this year to dig deeper into my faith and found that maybe, I am not a Trinitarian? It’s a core belief in my faith (Episcopalian) and has caused me to do a lot of reflection. The Church is so aligned with me otherwise, I’m exploring whether I just need to tweak my beliefs to match (!) – which seems so funny since it’s fundamental, but since ALL religious beliefs are taught, seems possible? (I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but maybe more Unitarian w/r/t the Father than I knew).

      1. I am also Episcopalian and I very much appreciate our “big tent” approach because I know I would not find a denomination with strict doctrine that I would be able to fully agree with. I wouldnt say that I don’t believe in the Trinity but it is confusing as all get out so I’m probably not 100% on board, but then again is anyone (like even a few priests I know admit that its confusing and thus hard to grapple with).

        I think the UU church is fascinating and is one of the few religious traditions I would move to if I ever felt the need to leave the Episcopal Church.

    4. Shared beliefs aren’t all that important to practicing my religion. Sacraments, community, tradition all matter a lot more.

      In general I strongly dislike environments where a lot of agreement on uncertain things is socially expected. It feels like people must be insincere or turning off their minds? A lot of pastors and priests are not exactly great theologians! And great theologians don’t all agree either. So why should people who just attend a church together agree on all that much?

      Of course I think I’m right at any given time, but for me that is more an issue of why won’t my religion agree with me. It doesn’t change what religion I am.

    5. Answering from a Catholic perspective:

      Whenever you look at statistics about who in a denomination believes what, you always need to look at how frequently they attend church. The difference between nominal Catholics and every Sunday plus Holy Days is Obligation Catholics are quite stark. (It’s considered a mortal sin to not attend if you are able/without a just reason, so people who don’t attend regularly are already not really on board with the teachings.)

      Some faiths are more open to differing opinions than others. The Catholic Church has a very clear set of beliefs. Other faiths have a lot of variation even amongst parishes, because they operate on a different model (congregational).

      As a Catholic, I definitely have the belief that if you don’t believe in transubstantiation, the sacraments, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc., maybe you would be better suited to a different faith. Then again, parishes often do a truly dismal job of explaining *why* the Church takes such strong stances in these areas. Maybe if people who attended CCD, got confirmed, go to Mass every Sunday, and attend on Holy Days of Obligation, and they still don’t understand why we believe in the Real Presence, that’s an institutional failure.

      Now, there are some areas where I disagree with the Church. Topping that list: birth control for married couples who have already had children and may have health risks with future pregnancies. Like if you have had three kids and doctors are recommending that future pregnancies don’t happen, go ahead and use contraception. NFP can be wonderfully reliable but I wouldn’t bank someone’s life on it being reliable.

    6. I am a United Methodist. The United Methodist approach to questions of Christian belief and practice is summarized in the “Wesleyan quadrilateral” of scripture, tradition, reason, and experience. Scripture is the ultimate source of answers to these questions, and we rely on Christian tradition, our own reason and intellect, and our personal experience in interpreting it. This naturally leads to differences in interpretation, some of which have been in the news over the past few years. I stay even though these questions are not resolved and I am not satisfied with the temporary answers because the church appears to be moving in the right direction. The church is made up of humans, after all, and it takes humans a while to catch up with things.

      I think it’s different in a more authoritarian denomination such as Catholicism or the southern Baptist convention or an evangelical church where members are told exactly what to believe, differences of interpretation are not tolerated, and laypeople are not encouraged to think for themselves. I would not belong to such a denomination even if its stances on all the major social issues aligned with mine. I also wouldn’t belong to a denomination that had actively abetted and concealed criminal behavior, or which tolerated infidelity and hypocrisy on the part of its leaders.

      I think it’s more difficult when you have grown up in a denomination whose beliefs you find problematic but don’t want to leave it for social reasons. That’s when you have to think hard about what is really a dealbreaker and what you’re just going to ignore or put up with.

      1. I don’t get how doctrinally methodists are different from presbyterians and episcopalians. I get that they arose at different times and methodists didn’t use to allow people to drink (or frowned upon it), but that seems to be not really observed? And there are also about 500 kinds of baptists.

        My sister teaches where most people are members of a very conservative religion and a lot of what they do is in observance of their faith (modest dressing) but isn’t doctrinally required as a religious belief. So get that people can be “culturally X” and have no idea re doctrines. FWIW, I grew up eating cheese pizza on Friday because it was (I assume) a largely catholic area. Spouse has no idea that this is a thing and he IS catholic (but perhaps only culturally — he was baptized but never got confirmed, so IDK if he could join a church or have a wedding there without going through all the prior steps).

        I feel like I may not get all the tenets of my faith (from birth; never investigated it or looked around but I DID get confirmed), but I feel that God is forgiving and we are nothing but fallable as humans, but we try to do our best and most monotheistic faiths largely have similar beliefs in a big-picture sense.

    7. People can have important family, cultural, and historical ties to a religion without believing in all of it. And they may prefer to maintain those ties and connection and not have any interest in a random different religion, even one that aligns with their spiritual preferences more.

      1. +1 this is me with Catholicism.

        Also, religions can and should change and grow. I like to think that parishioners can have a small influence on advancing a religious institution that often feels behind the times.

    8. My best friend was for years a very devout Catholic but has left the church over sexual assault and treatment of the LGBT community. She’s still a devout Christian and is upset that she no longer has a faith home. I’ve suggested that she look into other denominations and have offered to attend other churches with her (I’m Episcopalian, but I said I’d go to any sort of service with her). She’s uncomfortable doing so, since attending a non-Catholic church is a sin in her eyes, even though she’s no longer a practicing Catholic (and just refers to herself as Christian now).

      I feel for her because it’s causing a LOT of turmoil for her, and I also am angry that the Catholic Church left her with so much trauma. I don’t have an answer for her, I just hope that she finds peace.

      2. Sometimes I feel like I’m almost more “not Protestant” than I am Catholic, so I kind of relate to this. For me the things that Protestant gets wrong are the same as the things the world gets wrong in general; the mistakes feel like the same mistakes as people make at work, in politics, in whole economic systems, so it feels insidious and threatening to me. The things Catholics get wrong in comparison seem so evil and ludicrous that I’m not going to accidentally fall into them, even when I cannot tolerate being at a Catholic service because of them.

        If that isn’t how she feels though, and she is really just worried about what it is a sin, all Catholics can attend Orthodox services if they’re the best option available and it’s no kind of sin; it’s approved as a kind of last resort. I don’t know if there would be an inclusive Orthodox congregation, but I just mention that in case she didn’t know that.

        1. That’s one heck of a justification for being “not Protestant.” I can’t say I understand it, but it’s an interesting perspective to consider.

        2. If it’s in your area, Ukrainian Catholic is probably what you are looking for – priests can marry, and a blend of Catholic and Orthodox since the church never split East/West.

          1. Ukrainian Catholic is in full communion with Rome; what I meant is that actual Orthodox is considered okay in a pinch.

            There is a lot I like about Ukrainian rite culture compared to Roman Catholic culture. I read somewhere that a lot of modern Roman Catholic culture is based around priesthood and monastic traditions (and the celibate priesthood fits more with that), while the Eastern rite is based more around the needs of ordinary families? I am not sure what the history of that is, but the Ukrainian services I’ve attended have had much more of an “everyone is welcome here” feel to me. In general though, I really dislike respectability politics at church; I really think it’s fundamentally unchristian; churches that act that way would obviously have judged Jesus for the company he kept. (I don’t know if anyone else saw the WWJD meme going around that asked how prostitutes would cry at your funeral!)

  9. I’m sick of having my work email getting “newsletters” and subscriptions. Today, I got a Gaza email from the NYTimes “because I subscribed for the newsletter.” I absolutely did not subscribe to the newsletter – although I have had a NYT subscription for several years. I also got half a dozen emails from associations I’m a member of, with electronic versions of their physical magazines. I successfully routed all those emails to a folder via Outlook rules months ago, but it looks like they’ve updated their email addresses so I need to re-route. SIGH. If any of you have figured out how to truly, finally, get off these lists…I’m all ears!

    2. If it’s a genuine email from an organization, and not spammer email, it will have a tiny little “unsubscribe” link at the very bottom (scroll down and look for it). These genuinely work if it’s a legit organization.

    3. I work in tech and get a ton of spam. I unsubscribe when I see them and then use the “report spam” feature in Outlook.

  10. My mother, who is elderly, has smoked her whole life, and is pre-diabetic, has not been feeling well for the past week. It could be because I have some other pretty heavy things in my life right now that I am worried and upset about, but my gut feeling is that this is the time it is Something Serious. I’m already on an antidepressant and I haven’t found my therapist very helpful lately. I don’t know I keep going forward. And I don’t want my mom to be in pain.

    1. i think to some extent that kind of reaction is normal, especially if parent reaches a certain age or precarious health situation. good luck to you both…

    2. When she is in the hospital, there will be social workers and similar who can give you the lay of the land about options for both your mom and for you.

  11. going to be in california the week between xmas and new years and toying with spending a day at disneyland. it’s an adult couple and one 14 year old and we’ve been to disney world so no great pressure to wait on the longest lines for the most popular rides or to meet Elsa or whatever but I am assuming that even the less popular rides, shows, restaurants, etc are going to be jammed…. like exactly how crowded are we talking? or to ask another way, if flexible about what we see and do can fun be had?

    1. I’m a disney parks fan, and totally try to squeeze a day in Disneyland when I go to southern california, but I would never ever go the week between xmas and new years, esp to Disneyland (vs World). It’s the busiest week of the entire year, and the parks will even get to capacity that week. Disneyland is a lot smaller of a park than Magic Kingdom, and as a result it feels a lot more crowded, even when it’s not. I was there on a random day in October and the lines weren’t that long, but the park felt very crowded regardless. It will be completely miserable.

    2. Absolutely go! I love it. It’s really the happiest place on Earth, even more so when you’re not waiting for hours to get on the must-ride rides.

    3. It’s going to be a total zoo. The only way I would even consider it is if I were willing/able (it’s probably sold out) to shell out the $700/hr or whatever for a private guide.

    4. very first thing to do: see if the parks you want to go to have any availability that day. seriously, sometimes the parks are all booked and you can’t buy tickets to go that day. i’d recommend hollywood studios for the star wars stuff, but that’s me. the avatar ride is amazing. OH and epcot — the food is fun. i’d almost just go one night to walk around and eat the food.

    5. I have heard terrible things about the Christmas/NYE week at Disney, although moreso at World than Land.

    6. Between genie+ and single rider, it could be fine. We were there Thanksgiving week, and my tweens did everything they wanted to do in both parks over two days, 7 hours per day. It’ll be pricey, though.

    7. I was legitimately turned away Disneyland during that time of year once! It sold out.

      I have had an absolutely wonderful time at Knott’s Berry Farm during that time of year on several occasions though.

    8. We did a day at Disney World that week and it was horrible during the day but cleared out enough around late afternoon that we were able to get on a few rides and see the fireworks. I would verify now that there is availability and make a reservation, pay the extra $$$ for all the fast passes, do order ahead for quick service dining, and not get too excited about any particular ride because they tend to go down frequently.

      I like Disneyland so much more than Disney World. More/better rides in the Magic Kingdom, better landscaping, less dismal concrete wasteland.

    9. I went recently with a friend on a random weekday because we had free tickets. The crowds and lines were so miserable that we just found a bar in CA Adventure and got drunk instead of standing in 2+hour lines. It was too crowded for me to even enjoy just walking around.

      But to be honest there’s no 90 second ride that interests me enough to stand in line for more than a few minutes so YMMV. I definitely would not pay to go unless I had the money for a private guide like Senior Atty mentioned.

  12. I’m pale and the nice blush mix I have from Sephora is not cutting it now all the summer color has faded from my face. What recommendations does the hive have for a pink toned blush good for pale skin? I only use powder blush and want to look like I am not deathly pale all winter

    2. i’m always the lightest shade for foundation and so forth, and i like Nars orgasm – i have pink/neutral undertones but the gold flecks and coral shade works really well for me. if you haven’t tried it maybe give it a go.

      1. That has a warm tone. I am pale and cool-toned so it looks awful on me. I like Dandelion by Benefit.

      2. That has a warm tone. I am pale and cool-toned so it looks awful on me. I like Dandelion by Benefit.

    4. I know you said you only use powder blush so my apologies for ignoring that, but I switched from Nars to Ilia MultiStick in Whisper or Tenderly & like it a lot. Fellow pale lady here!

    5. I’m very pale. Chanel Rose Bronze has worked well for me in lieu of Nars orgasm.

    6. Clinique’s Pink Pop works well for me. I can use Heather Pop when I have more natural color but the pink works better when I need some brightness. This is assuming you are a cool-toned person.

  13. late in the day so maybe i’ll ask tomorrow too, but: i haven’t planned spring break with my kids yet and we have 4-7 days where we can get away. i’m pondering planning a beach vacation but i’m wary of college spring breakers. where would you go? we are members of costco and sams club if that makes a difference.

    2. For beach spring breaks, we love the Caribbean, especially Turks and Caicos, the USVIs, the Bahamas and St. Martin (French side)/Anguilla. None of those places are popular with the college age crowd, who tend to head more to budget resorts in Mexico and the DR.

      Beaches Turks and Caicos is pricey but amazing for kids and we enjoy it more than other kid-friendly resorts we’ve been to. I’ve also heard good things about the Grand Velas resorts in Mexico which is similarly pricey.

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