Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Mid Rise Skinny Rainbow Stripe Ponte Pant
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Sales of note for 1/31/25:
- Ann Taylor – Suiting Event – 30% off suiting + 30% off tops
- Nordstrom – Cashmere on sale; AllSaints, Free People, Nike, Tory Burch, and Vince up to 60%; beauty deals up to 25% off
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20 off your $100+ purchase
- Boden – 15% off new season styles
- Eloquii – 60% off 100s of styles
- J.Crew – Up to 40% off winter layers
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off sweaters and pants
- Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – End of season clearance, extra 70% off markdown tops + extra 60% off all other markdowns
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- My workload is vastly exceeding my capability — what should I do?
- Why is there generational resentment regarding housing? (See also)
- What colors should I wear with a deep green sweater dress?
- How do you celebrate milestone birthdays?
- How do you account for one-time expenses in your monthly budget?
- If I'm just starting to feel sick from the flu, do I want Tamilfu?
I was the one who posted yesterday with 6 law job rejections and a job search that feels like it’ll never work. You all were so kind yesterday. It was a pretty teary, door shut kind of day in the office yesterday. Tears stopped last night but I got very little sleep – so working from home today and rolling into the long weekend with no job search related activities until Monday or later. I still don’t know how this’ll work out but glad to have you all to share with as I’m not broadcasting IRL.
Sometimes, you have to take a step back for self-preservation. Good on ya for doing that this weekend. It’ll pay dividends.
We’re here for you!
+1. More hugs!
Hugs and good vibes from this internet stranger. Life is hard sometimes – I’m rooting for you. :)
I hope you’re able to get some rest this weekend! My fingers are crossed for you :)
Sending good vibes your way. Hope it is a restful weekend and really hoping for the best in your job search. I’ve found Ask a Manager to be a good resource for job searching and there have been posts from others in similar situations.
Good plan….I find that Friday afternoon/evening things look to be most bleak, when we are weary from the long week and things look much better by Monday morning. It is amazing what good sleep and time away to reflect on events can do for your soul and your outlook. Take good care….
I’ve seen boots/shoes from Fly London at Nordstrom/Zappos recently. In a genuinely non-snarky way… are these supposed to be cool or comfort shoes? I can’t figure out if I’m too old to wear them or too young!
I had to look them up since I’d never heard of them before. I think they’re supposed to be cool? Even though QVC sells them (I love QVC, but cool it is not). They remind me of more conservative Fluevogs so I’m voting cool.
I associate Fluevogs with a certain type of “quirky” woman in their 50s.
I just looked up Fly London shoes – definitely not cool, IMO. But they’re probably comfortable?
Idk if Fluevogs are cool…
It’s possible that I’m uncool. I never owned any, but really liked Fluevogs in my early 20s. Most of the Fly London shoes don’t look comfortable to me [she says, sitting in her LifeStride wedge loafers].
I have a few pair. Definitely FlyLondon shoes are funky, but not as much as Fluvogs. I think they’re more funky/quirky than comfort shoes such as Aerosoles or the like… but they are pretty comfortable. Good quality and materials.
I have the pumps, suede wedge ankle boots and the lace-up sandals. The pumps make farting noises though! :-(
I think they’re supposed to be cool comfort shoes, but the cool part is very questionable. I’ve tried them on and they are super comfy, though. Certain pairs could maybe be cool looking, maybe in that clog or Swedish Hasbeens kind of way. I kind of want a pair because they’re so comfortable and are nice quality, but I ended up returning the boots I tried because they looked hooflike on.
Yeah definitely quirky woman of a certain age shoes.
Yes — my older female artist / photographer friends are really grande dames who could rock these.
They’re definitely in the comfort category first but more for “cool artsy lady with bad feet” than “grandma,” IMHO.
Well that’s me I guess. I don’t like all the styles (I think the boots are hideous) but I like their low wedge styles with pants and for running around on the weekends. I think of them as a sneaker alternative.
Late reply, but I had a pair of fly London sandals — they were the lower wedge (one inch) not the higher wedge. They were so comfortable, and the rubber material of the wedge was very supportive and bouncy on my painful problem feet.
I would buy again, but I their sizing in the shoes does not really work for me, and I haven’t found a good fit since those sandals from three or four treats ago. I received lots of compliments on the sandals. Husband bought the men’s Chelsea boot that is more classic looking than the women’s styles and very subtle… and he likes the comfort of them too. I don’t like the current boot styles, but the open toe summery styles fit me, though toe boxes run narrow. The Lower heel is amazingly supportive and awesome if you live in the city and walk lots, like me. They do replace runners, in that they have more support and last longer ( for me at least— I buy new balance 574s, which last less time as i walk 15 – 30km a week)
Paid off my student loans! Needed to share with someone other than husband and the bakery person who I am getting to write “congrats on paying off student loans!” on a cake:-)
Amazing!!!
Congratulations! Fantastic!
Woooo! Congrats!
Good for you! And I love that you’re getting a cake.
Congratulations!
Congrats!! So exciting!
Congrats!! That’s awesome!
That is a wonderful milestone to hit. Congratulations!
Woo hoo and congrats!
Paid off mine last week in a massive lump payment! My bank account is smaller but my soul is lighter. Congrats!!!
Yay!! Use the money to buy a Valentine’s treat for your new horse :)
Congrats!! What kind of cake? ;)
ice cream. Oreo blizzard, to be exact:-)
The BEST kind! Enjoy and congratulations!
When I had my first baby, this is what my husband brought to the hospital for me and I will love him forever for it.
Hooray! Heartiest congratulations!!
Piggybacking on yesterday’s CPA discussion, I know this is a shot in the dark, but my family recently relocated. Does anyone have a recommendation for a CPA in the Baltimore area?
I’ve used NaimanMay, P.A. for more than a decade, and been happy with it! They’re based in Pikesville, the NW suburbs of Baltimore.
I am 5-4, curvy below the waist (thighs, hips, tummy), but flat-chested. Short torso.
Is there any hope that The Fold might work for me? It’s $25 to ship to the US, so if it is hopeless (e.g., Boden dresses), I’d rather just drool over the pictures than try mail-order roulette.
Not Houda, but I tried on a lot of things in the store. I’m maybe slightly short in the torso but pretty much average, and I found things hit me strangely, in that they were too long on the top.
I could send you some pictures of what they looked like on me if it would help. Post a burner email and I’ll share!
Staff in The Fold told me that their clothes are designed with a taller woman in mind (I am 5’7, and they fit me well). Maybe try some of their separates, which are as dreamy as their dresses?
I am 5 2″ or 5″3 on a good afro day. Very curvy in hips and bum but completely flat chested up top
My normal size in UK clothing is 8 (American 4Petite or 2 regular)
Straight dresses: e.g. the Arlignton dress hits me a bit below the waist but when I bunch the top a bit, it looks fine (I just don’t have enough chest volume). It is cut very straight so no way to wear it by getting into the dress from the top: I always have to slide all of it from the head down. It only has a well concealed back zip, no side zips for additional manoeuvrability. It is a pain to get into, but the dress is lined and the fabric is a very smooth wool yarn so for a curvy woman it’s a killer dress if not a bit vavavoom.
I don’t take any dresses that don’t have the distinct fold because the longer torso is difficult to hide unless you belt it.
Their tweed jackets are typically cropped and 3 quarter sleeve so no problems.
A Line dresses: the Hampton dress is very curve friendly and I wear it with that belt that they feature. Again, you have to put a but of the rushing forward but it’s not horrible. It opens completely like those wrap dresses from DvF. You have one button inside and one button visible on the opposite hip. worst case if you need more rushing, you can pull the inside button a little more towards the back to have tighter draping.
Since I gained weight, the Hampton is more forgiving, the Arlington has no room to breathe
I never tried their separates so can’t comment on that.
I hope this helps
Hours, I have to tell you I have loved your clothing posts lately! And also that I LOLed at “good Afro day”. :)
Sorry that was Houda – autocorrect.
:)
I should have also mentioned that I have a pair of trousers (the Orwell) and they are super comfortable. I’m 5’5″ and pear-shaped and the length is perfect (not ankle length as on the model, but it still works). They’re the most comfortable pants that I own.
I agree with Houda that the dresses are straight. I bougth the Calcot but I had to size up and have it tailored in the waist and the sleeves.
Anything with waist detail like Fitzrovia or Camelot was far too long for me on top and wouldn’t work for my height.
The dress I ordered (Fitzrovia in Magenta) would not work on a curvy bottom IMHO, it fits well up top, but I am definitely going to wear some shapewear underneath. It is long on the bottom and the long sleeves look a bit matronly in person, so I’m having it taken up and the sleeves turned into bracelet length
While the top (Madison in Garnet) was goooorgeous. I am also quite small up top and it was very flattering, not too tight in the arms (size 10 UK/sz 6 US – which is true for all my ‘designer’ clothing purchases) and skimmed beautifully over my tummy. A number of their tops have a slight peplum waist which is really flattering and I think pairs very nicely with a pencil skirt or trousers.
Quality is really gorgeous though, and I plan to stalk their sales going forward.
I am obsessed with the Fold but am so confused by their size chart. I am an 8/10 in most store brands and a 10/12 in higher-end pieces and would think I’d need to order a size 14UK in their stuff if it’s comparable to other nicer things I own. But the measurements on their size chart would tell me I am more like a size 10-12UK? I do think their stuff could be flattering (I am basically a tall ruler shape with a long waist) if I can figure out what damn size to order!
Offer me your simple wedding advice. Partner and I are very much of the mindset that we care more about being married than getting married, but we do want a small ceremony with friends and family. We can’t/don’t want to spend much money at all. I’ve looked at APW and other sites, but it seems like every low-budget wedding comes with some kind of huge caveat like “my uncle owns a restaurant and gave us all the food!” or “I used to work at this brewery so the venue was free!” In both of our families, accepting money or other help comes with huge strings attached, so we don’t want to go that route. We like the classic simple weddings of past generations, where you have a ceremony at the family church, then go to the fellowship hall and cut the cake, greet your guests, and drive off. No dinner, cocktail hour, elaborate venue, etc. The problem is that we don’t want to have a religious wedding, so a church is out, and it seems like anywhere else is thousands of dollars and set up for the multi-stage events that are so common now. Any off the beaten path ideas?
I went to a wedding at a state park shelter once. It was lovely. They had set out sidewalk chalk for guests to write on the concrete shelter pad and sidewalks, which was a fun touch. Very weather vulnerable, though, unless you can find a state park with an indoor venue (and those do exist).
Yeah, I am planning on a similar venue.
You could marry at a courthouse and then go out for a nice lunch.
We’ve talked a lot about that, but I think we want a more personal ceremony than a courthouse could provide. We don’t care about a lot of the wedding accouterments, but it’s really important to us to incorporate certain things into the ceremony that are significant to us but wouldn’t be conducive of a courthouse wedding.
Then hire an officiant and have a ceremony at a restaurant or in a park and eat lunch
I don’t totally know how they pulled it off or how much it cost, but one of my dearest friends had a courthouse wedding over the summer with a thoughtful ceremony and 75 people in attendance. Apparently our courthouse does have an option for more “conventional” weddings? They said we were the biggest crowd they’d ever had, which they were excited about, but it appeared that they regularly had groups in the 30-40 range. It might be worth talking to you local courthouse to see what options they might have available.
YMMV, however: call city hall and find out if the ceremonial things you want are possible. My observation as a guest my SILs’ wedding (they had to go to NYC b/c same sex marriage was pending in our state at the time; we went too) was that it was actually touchingly personal. They had a nice room for a ceremony, were flexible about my SILs adding the stuff that they found meaningful, and it was the most amazingly happy city office you can imagine being in. Basically everyone there had something to celebrate and was wearing whatever they wanted and had plans for lunch later.
You could go the city hall route with a few close friends / family members and then have cake at your apartment or whatever.
For what it’s worth, I got married at City Hall and at least in SF, they were open to adding to the script and personalizing a bit – we booked a time when no one was going after us, so there’s wasn’t a rush to get it done. The civil vows are also pretty lovely – I’d check what the local scene is like, you might be surprised.
Get married in a local park. Have your reception in a nearby church/fellowship hall. Many of them can be rented for non-church events. My local church hall has been rented out for all sorts of events.
Depending on where you’re located, are public parks an option? I feel like especially if you need space for a relatively short period of time and aren’t trying to do a big catering setup this could be affordable option. I know in the county I used to live in there were several properties available for rent at a range of price points, and county residents got a discount.
Do city hall plus lunch. I did city hall plus dinner and to this day I get compliments about how great it was.
The Young House Love bloggers wrote up their DIY wedding at their house years ago. It might be a place to start.
A park or public gardens. Or someone’s backyard if you have a friend who could host.
Or if you want inside, and you don’t know anyone who could host at their house, I would look at community halls and event spaces owned by local sporting or voluntary organizations. I’m in Canada, so I would phone the local curling club, boat club, the Legion, etc. But I’m sure there must be equivalent type spaces wherever you are. Most of the smaller weddings I’ve been to recently have been in rented out restaurants.
But yeah, any venue you have to rent is going to cost something.
Elks, AOH, KoC, Lions Club, Rotarians
Yes! I had my wedding reception at a KofC Hall. The bar was soooo much cheaper than we could have gotten anywhere else.
Echoing the recommendations for local parks. We got married in a park near our house with ~ 20 people (only family and one friend each), had an amazing lunch at a nearby restaurant, and that was it. We did have a dinner for everyone the night before as well. It was very intimate and the total cost was under $5K all in. I have no regrets at all about any of it and recommend it to anyone. The hardest part is cutting the guest list, but once that decision is made, it’s easier.
I got married in my in-laws house by a JP, with only 20 people in attendance. We went out to a nice dinner in a private room after, it was maybe ~$3000 all told for food and wine for everyone. If I could do it again right now, I would have the ceremony at city hall instead of the house but would change nothing else. City hall is a popular, non-venue, inexpensive choice for a lot of people!
We did have a big engagement party, but the in-laws organized and paid for that and got to invite whoever they wanted. :-)
We got married at an open-air chapel at a summer camp (it had special significance to my husband’s family…and the lovely views didn’t hurt ;)). No attendants – just us, the minister, and 10 guests (small immediate families). We went to dinner afterwards at a nice restaurant in a private room. The chapel was $600 I think (it’s a camp for needy children, so the chapel costs go toward scholarships) and dinner was maybe $1k? Flowers (my bouquet, a handful of corsages, an altar arrangement) were $500. The photographer was $1k, too, I think. We got married on a weekday afternoon because the weekend rates for the chapel were stupid expensive ($1200), and that helped make everything else cheaper/easier, too.
A very old-fashioned (western?) idea would be a club/bar like the Elks or VFW. Freinds who got married in one (it was the only option in the bride’s hometown) said it was great- they even got a help paying for the dj, because regular patrons over ilat the far end of the bar might enjoy the music too…
hey, you asked for unusual ideas!
Don’t know what city you’re in, but where I am there are several lower-key bars that have an upstairs or private room you can buy out, sometimes for just a minimum tab (like 3 hours for $1000 tab or something like that). You could decorate it simply and have the ceremony there, then treat everyone to drinks/appetizers afterwards. It’s worth calling around and seeing what deals you can get.
What city would this be in? How many people? With details I’m sure we can give you more specific ideas.
I’m not sure what city you’re in (and maybe you came across this while looking at APW) but there were multiple times during my wedding process when I wished we’d gone with a popup wedding: https://popwed.co/ – is there something similar in your location?
Having just planned my own wedding, a relatively simple affair by the standards of my family, do I have some ideas:
VFW halls
Your alma maker’s church will do a non-religious ceremony (unless you went to a religious school)
One of my friends got married in a beachside hotel (Maine). Ceremony overlooking the water, buffet for about 50 guests, four digit cost.
One friend had her reception in a lunchtime cruise, which was about $45 per person plus tax and tip, and very memorable.
Botanical gardens
Golf courses
Hotels will be hit or miss, both in decor and cost, but it’s worth it to email around.
You might get zoos or aquariums that do after-hours events
Artsy spaces can be very inexpensive for an evening event
—
My advice is to search a LOT of venues. Huge range, a lot of them have weird rules, a lot are pains, and a lot may be taken.
Places that do political fundraisers or corporate events have the advantage of being inexpensive and easy. People planning their annual fundraiser don’t put wedding-amount of time into it; they book the hall, have it “look nice,” pick out food, and arrive.
Some other ideas:
Costco and Sam’s Club have inexpensive and easy wedding accroutrements. I got so many compliments on my Costco bouquet, and it’s like – I picked a package off the website and they sent me boxes of flowers. Was this supposed to be a decision?
If you’re into saving money but don’t just want to email people, electronic save the dates are amazing and amazingly cheap. Mine were really pretty and cost about $30. There are even cheaper options out there, but we were very pleased with ours.
I made a spreadsheet of all the “traditional” wedding stuff we were *not* doing. The reason is that people will say, “It’s ‘just’ this one thing.” No, it’s not one thing; it’s never one thing; it’s always going to be a lot of things. Calligraphy on the invitations, a limo, flowers on every table, favours for our guests, a DJ, welcome bags in the hotel, morning-after brunch – we estimate that it was $15,000 of stuff we did not do, no one thing terribly expensive.
+1 to costco flowers. 10/10 would buy again. Volume of flowers and ease of purchase, no worries, they just shipped it to us? Amazing.
A restaurant with a private room, ceremony at a nearby park or city hall or even at the restaurant.
If you’re near a college campus, you might be able to rent the college’s chapel. We got married at the chapel at a state university so they had a little curtain that could cover up the one religious painting if you were so inclined. It wasn’t terribly expensive, was beautiful and held about 100 people.
My husband and I got married in a historic church in our city that is not currently affiliated with a particular congregation. We had our reception at a nearby restaurant, but the same place has an upstairs-downstairs so you can have the ceremony upstairs, host a cocktail hour downstairs while converting the upstairs into a dinner party. (All Saints Chapel in Raleigh, if you’re interested.) We nixed the idea of having the whole wedding there because it was cheaper to have our reception at a restaurant than pay to have food brought in, but if you were providing your own food, a facility like this might be worth considering.
We also saved a lot of money on floral. I made my own bouquet from grocery store flowers and we bought a bunch of small plants (<$10) from Trader Joe's for aisle runners that doubled as centerpieces. And cakes from Whole Foods are delicious and inexpensive: we got two round cakes for display and a sheet cake for serving, with plenty left over.
I know someone who rented a beautiful home on VRBO that had beautiful gardens for her intimate wedding. The couple got married on the property in a small ceremony, catered a lunch for guests and then stayed at the house overnight. The total cost was significantly less than renting a venue and was really beautiful.
This is such a great idea!
+1 I went to an amazing wedding in a little mountain town. The couple rented two houses on AirBnB. One house was the ceremony/party house and the other was for them to retire to and start their honeymoon. There was a large deck up with great views and it was just perfect.
I did a VRBO, as accommodations for my family and a reception dinner for 10 (including myself and DH)–word of warning, the owner FREAKED when he found out it was a “wedding” with a “catered dinner” (ie, takeout) and left us a terrible review.
Yeah there was a story in Toronto about this about a year ago. Couple rented a huge house on Airbnb. When the owner found out it was for a wedding, he cancelled the Airbnb reservation with too short notice for the couple to find another venue. It made the newspapers here.
We have a vacation rental/Airbnb and I would be furious if someone did this. We have strict restrictions on use that attach to our permits and specifically prohibit weddings. I would 100% ask permission not forgiveness if you go this route.
I love outdoor weddings, but contingency planning for rain kind of sucks if you’re doing it on your own.
Can you get married in a park or public venue (gazebo, gallery, room in town hall) and then rent a venue? Someone I know rented out a coffee shop, which worked well for them. I think they had some alcohol and snacks/dessert in the afternoon. You can also potentially rent food trucks. I think the real way to go though is a restaurant room or place where everything will be set up by the venue.
My reception was in the cafeteria of a private elementary school. The school caters events to subsidize the students’ tuitions. We got individual plate service with great presentation (edible flowers, etc.) for the price of family-style rec center food. The venue was BYOB, and we provided the entire bar inventory by shopping a wholesaler ourselves.
You can make it as simple and inexpensive as you’d like, but you should feed people – whether it’s a lunch or dinner.
I don’t know if this is regional, but I disagree. I’ve been to a ton of weddings, and it’s about 50/50 whether a meal is provided or just apps/cake. It’s always clear from the time of day. For example, you shouldn’t have a 7 p.m. wedding and just have cake and apps. But if you’re getting married at 2 p.m., the expectation here is that there won’t be a full meal after.
I had a wedding similar to what the OP is talking about, though it was spread over two days. My ex and I got married in a pretty chapel at a local college (the ceremony wasn’t religious, though) with just our immediate family present. The next day, we had an afternoon get-together in my hometown at the community center with a simple cake and appetizers, most of which were from Costco.
I’d say it’s cultural. Apparently not feeding people wasn’t an option given my Mom’s Italian family–and the fact that so many guests travelled from out of town. It’s a little inhospitable not to feed people who are coming in from out of town.
Yeah, I’m Indian. I would never, ever host people at a wedding without feeding them. Food is love. Otherwise, it’s like…hey pay attention to us, then beat it because we’re too cheap to properly host you. None of this is about money. I love me some Costco platters.
You don’t need to feed people, but you need to make the time appropriate for the meal and communicate to guests what you will be serving. Etiquette isn’t about spending money you don’t have.
I agree that you need to feed people, but it doesn’t have to be a full meal. Have the reception at a non meal time and serve heavy apps with some kind of beverage (doesn’t have to be alcoholic but you should at least have tea and water). Even a few sandwich and fruit trays from a nice grocer will do. But if you don’t feed people, your reception should be relatively short. Allow for mingling, a couple words from you guys, cut the cake, then end so people can get a meal afterwards at a meal time.
Some venues have elopement packages on off days. I remember in the midst of my planning stress, I had fantasies about the elopement package at the Penn Museum in Philly. It was like $500 to rent the space (during the week) for a few hours with no more than 35 guests. I wonder if something like that would be available where you are?
You can totally do a champagne and cake reception! I think APW featured one that was late at night, but you could totally do the same thing during the day. I’d shoot for a non-mealtime, like maybe 10 a.m. or 3 p.m.
We got married at one of our favorite restaurants in the early afternoon on a Saturday, then sat down to a family-style lunch with our guests. No rental fee, just had to meet a $500 food/drink minimum (Midwest MCOL city), which we did easily even only feeding 14 people. Anyone can perform a wedding in the state we lived in at that the time, so our officiant was a long-time friend. We got married short notice for a variety of reasons, and there are some things I would do differently now, but I have no regrets about how low-key and relatively non-stressful it was.
It is hard to give advice without knowing the actual budget and the city (a cheap wedding can be anything from $500 for a cake and some wine after the courthouse, or $15,000 for the full dinner + drinks for a small group of people in a fancy location). BUT, my real advice is that people save money by just not having a lot of guests. It is always the multiplier of the number of guests that ends up being how people spend so much money on their weddings. They decide to invite all the cousins and then is is another 20 people times $150/head. Many brides think that they can save money by doing their own make up, or not using paper invitations. Those choices save a couple hundred bucks at best. You really save money by just not having that many people at a wedding. That sounds like it is already your plan. And congrats on the upcoming nuptials!
Nice restaurants in my area host weddings in their courtyards/outdoor areas and the reception in the restaurant pretty regularly. Also beyond public parks, look at nature preserves, greenhouses, and museums. They can have smaller spaces that would be really suitable.
I got married recently and had a pretty similar mindset. We got married at a local (admittedly, very high-end) restaurant where we rented a private room. We had the brief ceremony in the private room, a family member became “ordained” (we’re atheists) and performed the ceremony. It was very intimate and lovely. We then had a very elaborate dinner where we all sat around one large table. I feel this could be accomplished with less of an elaborate meal but with the same vibe.
I had almost this same wedding! 30 guests, friend as an officiant, and a fancy dinner at a very nice restaurant (married in the garden). My husband wore a suit he owned, me a $200 white dress. It was perfect, inexpensive, and because we love good food, even better (I had the best lamb chop I think I ever had!).
Some of the hotels around DC offer “elopement packages”, perhaps they have them in your area too? My husband and I took advantage of one of these – used the hotel’s rooftop to have a ceremony with just a handful of witnesses, and then took said witnesses to dinner at the hotel’s restaurant. It was more memorable and special than the courthouse, but far less expensive than a full-blown wedding. The “package” included 2 hours with a photographer, and my bouquet, and the officiant. Might something like this make sense for you?
This is what we did as well. Ours was at a B&B. You can find places that offer some sort of “elopement” package in most states. However, it’s not really an elopement because many allow guests. We were allowed 12 guests, which was perfect for including immediate family. Our package included flowers, photographer, and officiant. We then scheduled a dinner after in the private room of a local restaurant. It was a great compromise between our desire to get married at the courthouse and our moms’ desires to have a wedding.
I could have written this post a year ago. I wanted the simple church hall punch and dessert buffet and cake reception and my fiance wanted the Saturday night dinner+dancing reception. (He won). If by chance you’re in the Boston area, leave a burner email and I can email you with a couple local thoughts. When you say that you don’t want to throw a lot of money at this, what is the budget you’re working with? For context, we did a ~115 person wedding for ~$20k within the past year in greater Boston, which may be both larger and more expensive than what you’re working with. If that’s the ballpark of what you’re considering, here are some things that helped: immediately eliminate any venue where the space alone costs more than $1k, country clubs are actually shockingly less expensive because they are all inclusive but not explicitly wedding (e.g. they have to be priced to also be accessible to local garden clubs, etc that want events there too). At lower price points it is not less expensive to get married in the off-season because you’re probably already looking at less wedding oriented vendors. Restaurants are a lot more expensive than you would expect (F&B mins were around $20k a lot of places we looked even for a semi-private area and continued business elsewhere in the restaurant). A lot of towns in our area have gorgeous public buildings perfect for receptions, much like the church hall idea you were thinking of. Most churches will rent their halls to non-members, and depending on where you are they may be really beautiful. Brunch/Lunch is less expensive than dinner largely because alcohol consumption is less. Almost every package can be adjusted: if it’s a hotel venue and the package includes chivari chairs, you can usually knock $8-10 per person off the price by using regular hotel chairs – don’t assume that if it’s an all-inclusive price you can’t make adjustments that will bring the price down. In general, avoid venues where you have to rent anything – although it can easily be done through a caterer, it can add significantly to the cost. We hated wedding planning with every bone in our body, so we probably could have saved some money had we wanted to do more DIY, but we didn’t.
I wasn’t going to post because my wedding was 10+ years ago, but all of this was true when I married.
Try places that do children’s birthday parties but don’t scream “kid” (e.g. local fire museum, historical museum, park rec area). They’re already set up to host a gathering with cake and will be way cheaper than a “wedding” venue.
20 years ago, we got married at a B&B that was also a tearoom. They had a lovely courtyard where we had the ceremony, and then the proprietor catered a tea-style late lunch with champagne for our guests afterward. We had about 40 people, mostly close family. One of my husband’s coworkers at the time was a Universal Life Church minister who had married other people, and he married us using vows we wrote. Whole thing cost $2500 and took us an afternoon to plan. I wore an ivory bridesmaid’s dress and a veil I found at a wedding warehouse sale and my husband wore a black suit he already had. We each had two attendants (longtime best friends) but we told them to wear whatever dressy clothes they either already had or would use again later. I did have professional flowers (that was another $350) because I love flowers and that was important to me, but we did not have a professional photographer (DH’s grandpa was a semipro photographer, so our pictures are still GREAT), favors, a limo, dancing, a rehearsal dinner, or most of the wedding “stuff” people do.
My $.02 is that you can make any wedding complicated, even a small one. Keeping things simple is the difficult part, because so many people have so many expectations about what you “must” have. Focus in on what matters to you and just do those things. Don’t let yourself get talked into doing more because “so-and-so did such-and-such” or “you HAVE to do this because what will people think?”
I haven’t read the other comments. Here’s what my husband and I did two years ago:
-reserved a private room at a very nice steakhouse. No event fees, all we paid for was food and alcohol. There was a $1,000 minimum.
-had my uncle get ordained online. He married us downstairs at the steakhouse in their courtyard area. Found a secular ceremony script online and modified it slightly.
-we did a cocktail hour in the courtyard before dinner. We used the steakhouse’s pianist and paid $100 for an hour of music before and after the ceremony.
-Worked with the restaurant to set a menu with two salad options, three entree options, etc. But since the group was so small, people could have ordered whatever they wanted.
-We did open bar, but our families aren’t big drinkers.
-invited only parents, grandparents, aunts/uncles, siblings, and cousins. No children.
-had the wedding on a Thursday…it was a special date for us, but because it was on a weeknight some cousins who lived farther away (and we don’t spend much time with) didn’t bother to come.
-requested no gifts. We got a couple of checks but that was it.
-Got cake and a few vases of flowers at Whole Foods, had them delivered to the restaurant the afternoon of.
-We got a photographer for the ceremony + cocktail hour, but not for dinner.
We spent $3500 total. Would not change a thing.
I got married in a park. It was a non-weekend day, and we had just family in attendance, so I gambled by not reserving the space. It worked out fine. I paid for our officiant/pal to get ordained online, something like $60 (I sprung for the wallet card because I thought it would be fun for him to have). We had my family over to our place for drinks and cheese and such afterward, then just my husband and I went out for dinner. I wore a super cute dress that was cheaper than a lot of the clothes regularly featured on this blog, and my dude wore nice pants and a shirt from Macy’s. The biggest expense was a photographer (though they’re much cheaper for weekdays and “elopements”) and of course that’s skippable.
We threw a big party for all our friends later, but I would’ve felt just as married if we’d skipped that part.
We got married last summer on a Tuesday morning at a National Forest site near our home that has picnic tables. We rented the site for the day. It was gorgeous and a place we love. The only thing that was hard was restricted traffic on the road to the site. We had everyone who was inclined to take a work day off come (definitely told them no expectations that they come!) and bused them on a school bus we rented (with driver) from the local school district. We ordered a bunch of wraps and bought so so much beer and wine and a sheet cake from costco and borrowed coolers from friends. It was low key and great and I am grateful that we did something more than just us at the courthouse (though we seriously considered that too). We ordered invites off of minted that were sent directly to everyone. My mom and aunt made my dress and put together a bouquet for me. Biggest expense was 2 hours of a photographer. We spent about $7k including rings. I think it’s worth considering how much you’re comfortable spending and then figure out your priorities – place, number of people, flowers, dress, or booze, etc. Spend on your priorities and stop spending when you’ve spent what you’re comfortable with.
Is there a local historic mansion with lovely gardens? We almost went with one in our area. Instead my in-laws offered their home, which had a gazebo and enough room for a sit down dinner for our small event. A local retired judge presided.
So I went to a fun event last night. A group of women recently started a “club” where each member (or team) pledges to donate $400 over the year to a local nonprofit. Each member is allowed to nominate a nonprofit that serves the area, and then there’s a dinner once a quarter, and three nominees are given 10 minutes to present. The group votes on their favorite, and then everyone writes $100 check to the winner. At the end of the night, a foster care transition house walked away with a $10k donation, and the runners up each got about $1200. Guys, it was so fun! Do your cities have a club like this? Apparently it’s becoming a thing.
Yes, in fact the nonprofit I work for was the recipient of one of these events! It’s a fantastic idea. Very low cost and easy.
Love this so much!
Does anyone know of something like this in philly and/or is there any interest in starting one?
Yes, I’m a member! 100 women philadelphia dot com (no spaces). It’s SO much fun – it’s wonderful to be able to participate in a large donation that makes an impact (we specifically ask for people to identify a specific project that the nonprofit is doing where we could make a real difference), and I’ve learned so much about organizations doing great work locally. And it’s a good networking opportunity, too, lots of accomplished, smart members (I always wonder if there are Corporettes in the room).
I think they are called giving circles
I organize one of these for my friends, and I highly recommend it. Our focus is on raising money for progressive political candidates, and it’s been a great way for everyone to learn more, get involved, and make new friends. If you google “giving circles,” there are lots of resources out there for how to start one of your own, or find one near you.
Here in Chicago, there is a group called Impact 100 that does this same thing, writ a little larger.
Anyone know of a Boston version? I’d love to do this.
I just found and joined my local group–thank you! This is exactly the half-way point between “full-contact, hands-on” volunteering and the local JL for me. For a variety of reasons, I wanted a middle ground, and this is it.
I’m stunned and scared that Trump is declaring a national emergency to build the wall. I’m not scared about the wall itself, but about the disdain for the democratic process and the willingness to embrace autocratic rule. Also scared because relying on all of us to be fatigued and to respond with “what has he done now? I’m not surprised” is straight out of the dictator’s playbook.
Ugh, it’s awful. I have a running email debate with two colleagues about whose country is most dysfunctional (US, UK, and Spain). It’s total gallows humour – border walls, crashing out of the EU, and political prisoners on trial for rebellion are all horrific.
Agreed, we are doomed. And so are the butterflies.
+1 :(
I’m with you. It’s alarming, mostly because every time I think something is just too outrageous or over the line to stand, it seems to be met with shrugs. I worry that there is no actual line. I really really hope that this is the Icarus moment, though. Surely he’s flown too high and will melt his wings.
The only pro to all of this is now I can stop worrying about whether my autistic 4 year old will ever go to college or get married because we’ll all be dead by then.
You know what I am tired of? People complaining when Trump uses the exact same powers that Obama used, and they are the same people who called us racist when we complained about Obama’s executive overreach.
I remember saying, so very often, during the Obama administration: “How would you feel if a Republican did this? Would you be okay if Bush did this?” The response was arrogant snittiness. Turns out that Democrats didn’t care, because they thought a Republican would never again win the Presidency. (That also explains the utter freakout and two years of conspiracy theories when a Republican won.)
You wanted it; now you’re getting it, good and hard.
(Side note: do some research on past presidents’ use of the emergency powers. This is actually restrained.)
Agree. Thank you for this point. Trump seems to be attempting to get away with a similar overreach of executive power as Obama actually did get away with.w
It’s not intellectually honest to pretend that Trump’s embrace of autocratic principles and leadership is anywhere, ANYWHERE, close to anything that President Obama ever attempted to do. Please provide examples with evidence to support your assertion that “this is just like what Obama did.” I am desperately trying to understand where you are coming from and I’m getting nowhere, so you’ll have to help me out.
Delete your account.
LOLOLOL – thanks for the idiotic talking points, but please sit this one out. The adults are talking. Don’t interrupt.
Sure, Jan.
Keep telling yourself that.
Nah, no one complained about Trump’s last three emergency declarations. This incident is very different.
I keep hearing this repeated. I’d like to educate myself about this position. Could someone please provide resources?
Fox News. Infowars. Breitbart.
Oh, did you mean legitimate sources? Sorry, you won’t find this perspective anywhere remotely credible.
This is what I found: https://www.apnews.com/03d60f47b89d49139d948fec0deeadaf
No, I didn’t like it when Obama did it either. It’s executive overreach. And at that time, the House Republicans sued — and won — to preserve their constitutional authority to appropriate funds.
I’d just like those same Republicans to be as upset about the same thing now.
Snort. Republicans don’t like hypocrisy in their political rivals? I can’t image how frustrating that is. Hard eye roll.
It’s incredibly racist to declare a fake emergency in order to build a giant “wall” as a monument to racism because you and your bigoted brethren are terrified of the inevitable (sorry!) increased racial diversity in this country. This is true regardless of anyone’s view of executive power.
Sorry if the truth makes you feel bad.
This x infinity.
You know I wanted to write about how you are incorrectly conflating two ideas, but I’ll just say this: I feel shame for you. When I read comments like this from people who are more upset to be called racist than they are upset by the actual racist and inhumane acts they support (or support by doing nothing), I just think of those photos of angry people, hate dripping from their mouths, screaming at a child going to school that was recently integrated. That hate is a stain on you. And if you don’t feel the shame now (and maybe you sling a comment at me but well I just don’t mind what you think of me), you will feel that sting from your children and grandchildren for a long, long time.
I wish you peace. And kindness, both in your heart and in the hearts of others who have never made you feel the hate or deadly threats that our neighbors to the south feel.
I feel sorry for you.
I feel sorry for YOU, Anonymous at 12:34. I’ll pray for you.
Not neva eva did Obama declare a national emergency to pay for discretional spending. You are putting out a straw man if I ever did see one. And Obama didn’t “have the same powers” as Trump. Obama has the same powers as previous presidents. Trump is claiming to be able to do what he wants and daring to be stopped through the legal system because we’ve never had a President this d*mn insane. Please take a seat.
This right here. *fist bump*
“You wanted it; now you’re getting it, good and hard.”
Classy. Dude, you sound like you have roid rage.
I’m assuming you are trying to make a joke and are fully aware that pushing for greater access to health insurance is worlds apart from putting children in cages and repeatedly calling their parents criminal rapists.
You should be worried about the wall. It’s being built to “protect” you, speak out about it! There are people fighting, join them.
I actually think this could play out in an interesting way. The house can vote to override the emergency declaration forcing the senate to then vote on who is actually for it and against it. The courts also may review it. As to Obama, he signed executive orders, not emergency declarations but I agree that both have issues in certain contexts, not that they are comparable.
I think this allows Trump to save face. I think Congress or the Courts will quickly squash it and then he can tell his base he did everything he could.
I think the house will likely vote to override it, but kind of figured it would never make it to the floor in the senate. Is there a reason you think the floor would vote on it?
I have zero personal knowledge on this, but NPR said this morning that procedurally they’ll be forced to call it to a vote in the Senate if the House passes it.
This scares me even more. If it plays out this way, then he can come back and say – look at the congress, they didn’t do what you want, vote R in 2020. And, look at the courts, they overruled me, the courts are illegitimate. That is dangerous too! Bad options all around.
This is such a stupid thing though. You can’t suddenly build a thousands of miles long wall. The eminent domain issues alone fairly guarantee that the wall couldn’t be completed during Trump’s presidency (even assuming the end is nigh and he wins a second term), let alone before the courts toss the “state of emergency” on constitutional grounds. I’m horrified right along with you though–for the state of the country and the outrage fatigue. I’m adding to my list the incredible stupidity of our president and anyone who thinks this is a viable option.
I have my three-month review for my new job next week and I’d like a few tips on how to communicate with my boss. Objectively, I’m doing very well – I’ve gotten comments like “you’re a rockstar” and other really nice compliments from a variety of sources. The issue that I want to bring up is that I am not being challenged or fully utilized (it’s easy to do well when the work isn’t hard). I have one project that is good and that has lots of interesting and challenging components, but there isn’t enough work on it to fill my full-time schedule. Otherwise, I find myself doing ad hoc tasks that are below my level and that don’t give me any degree of ownership over the work (think being asked to jump on a call to listen in or to slap together a few tables in Excel using data I’ve never seen before and will never see again). I’m also bored a lot in a way that I wasn’t at my last company in the same industry. We work in a project-based, client-based environment and at this point in my career (with my experience and degree level), I should be taking leadership and more substantial roles on projects rather than stepping in to do some brief tasks on demand. However, how do I balance this critique/comment with the fact that I am a new employee in a small company where there is the expectation that we all pull together to get things done, even if the tasks are below your level? I want to make sure I make it clear that I’m ready and willing to be challenged (something my boss specifically said she was looking for when she hired me), but I don’t want to sound like I’m not a team player or like I think I’m too good for these random tasks people keep asking me to do. I’ve brought this up with my supervisor before and she does know that I want to be challenged more, but what can I say to make it sink in and result in change? I think I’ve done what I can on my own and now I need action from her end too or I think I’ll be forced to leave. Any advice?
We have this situation a lot in consulting. The thing is you also need to keep in mind what the project pipeline is. If you see that there are tons of projects and no one is on the beach, then it makes sense to say you want to take on a bigger chunk of work, for e.g. on project ultra or proposal omega.
If on the other hand, partners are struggling to bring in projects then it might be just a matter of awaiting the influx of new work. As long as I am getting paid and receive positive feedback, I wouldn’t mind helping on proposals or even IP while waiting for my breakthrough project.
Yes, and ‘stuff’ always runs downhill. Understand that they are simple tables, but someone’s got to do it, and it’s not going to be the boss. Unless there is someone more junior you can hand stuff to, it’s going to be you.
I would ask how you can take on more, but I wouldn’t frame it that the work you are doing isn’t hard/important/interesting.
You don’t say too much. Something simple like, “I’ve really enjoyed the work I’ve done so far, and I feel ready to be helpful in more complex areas if you have work available.” And then you start polishing your resume. If an employer doesn’t properly use your experience/doesn’t have need of you, they’re not going to suddenly wake up and think, “We need to challenge Susan more!” The work available is the work available. Take it or leave it. Be friendly, be pleasant, do the tasks below you, and keep your eye open for other opportunities.
Signed,
Been there. It never got better.
I’m of two minds on this.
1) There may not be much you can do, if there aren’t new projects to go around. I had a direct report in this situation, and while I felt bad about it and really did want to give her new opportunities, I couldn’t manufacture new projects out of thin air. (It was sort of a weird downtime in our shop, and things have since picked up.) That said, I didn’t see her being especially proactive, as in pitching very specific ideas of what she wanted to be working on. I just got a lot of “I feel like I’m capable of more! I want bigger projects!” If you want to be a leader, you have to act like it.
2) The only advice I’d have — and this is totally dependent on your workplace and where your work is coming from — is to take an entrepreneurial approach and find your own work. I’ve also had a direct report take this approach, and it’s paid off. He noticed a need that wasn’t being met, and after pitching his ideas, he took them on and is essentially creating a niche for himself. Let’s just say I am very interested in keeping this employee engaged and happy, because his skills are hard to find. And he’s gotten major bonus points from the higher-ups for showing leadership. You have to do this with finesse, positivity, and with a problem-solving approach in mind. Any whining about being underutilized is not going to go over well.
Your concerns are about the job’s fit with your talents and goals to fully utilize them. Not a conversation for your review IMHO. Take the money and … work throughout the year to improve the quality of your assignments. You don’t want to stagnate but your career development is yours to manage outside the evaluation framework. Signed – someone who one got way ahead because I did my job and I returned phone calls.
Has anyone tried any of the Ponte pants from Express? The J.Crew pixie pants are always my go-to for work pants (casual office, just need to “dress up” when I have client meetings, and those + a nice sweater or blouse are appropriate) and my pairs are getting worn out. I don’t love the new style pants J Crew replaced the pixies with, they feel too much like yoga pants/leggings. Looking for a replacement (besides shopping Poshmark/ThredUp).
I haven’t found great ponte pants anywhere recently. Express was the home of my first pair of ponte pants…albeit in like 1997. I would hope they stay true to their “heritage” as the ponte pant genesis.
Alas, while I love these, they top out at a 12. So. Not happening.
Yeah, I was all ready to buy these until I saw they stopped at size 12. Okay then.
I was alllll ready for these to be my new favorite “airplane pants” but no.
Haven’t tried the Express kind, but I do like the ponte skinnies from JJill and the crepe travelers skinny pants from Chicos. Both are the pull on variety and work great for my biz casual days with a nice blouse or fun blazer.
I buy all my JCrew Minnies on Poshmark. You might try to see if you can score some replacement pairs there!
Have you tried the Brass Ponte Pants? I actually thought the J Crew Pixie pants felt a little too much like yoga pants, and the Brass ones are more pant-like. They are more expensive though.
Brass! Ecru Pants! I hate to say it becaue they’re slightly more but both are great.
I like NYDJ. Pear, so YMMV.
Macy’s in-house (I think) brand INC has a line of ponte pants. I buy the curvy ones and wear them to my biglaw office on casual Friday. I’ve been very happy with how they wash and wear overall and the price is good. The styles seem a little limited at the moment but in the past they have skinnies, straight, flare and some with moto details.
https://www.macys.com/shop/product/i.n.c.-pull-on-ponte-skinny-pants-created-for-macys?ID=2263532&CategoryID=157#fn=sp%3D1%26spc%3D9%26ruleId%3D78%7CM75MFU%7CBoost_count_0%26kws%3Dinc%20ponte%26searchPass%3DexactMultiMatch%26slotId%3D1
I just ordered the Siena Skinny Pant from Athleta and they’re a ponte-ish fabric that will be amazing on travel days, and I plan to order another pair. They have real functional pockets! They are definitely not dressy on their own, but I think they’re great for a more casual Friday with some cute flats and a nicer top.
Old Navy Harpers. They’re like buttah.
Yes the harper pants are great.
I just tried on a pair of pull-on, slightly bootcut ponte pants from NY&Co and they make my butt look like magic! They’re decently thick, although I have no idea how they’ll wear.
I usually wear a Julie 4 in Loft pants and the Small from NY&Co fit me well. I tend to carry weight in my hips and thighs (thanks for the hamstrings and quads, ballet!) but these pants, while fitted through the hips and thighs, don’t make me look super hippy (as in lots of hips) or chunky.
A question based on yesterday’s afternoon thread: how much blame do you put (or judgement do you pass) on the “other woman/man” in an affair situation? I was interested to see so many commenters calling OP’s friend a terrible person for being involved with a married man, because I’ve always though the onus is squarely on the shoulders of the person who is actually in a relationship to not sleep with anyone else. I’m not and never have been married, but I have been cheated on, so I don’t know how that impacts my thoughts.
I don’t think being involved with a married person is a great idea or indicative of great judgement, but I also don’t think it automatically makes you a bad person. On the other hand, I do think cheating automatically makes you a bad person.
The married person is obviously the most terrible and clearly the onus is on them to not sleep with other people so while the other person is less terrible, they are still terrible. It’s wrong and immoral to be involved with a married person. I would probably drop a friend if they got involved with a married person.
I did have a friend get involved with a married person (she too was married at the time). I absolutely distanced myself from the friendship and it took years to get the friendship back after many things had changed.
In my book, they’re both equally awful people. There are no shades of guilt in something like this for me – conscious adultery is inexcusable.
It’s not adultery if you’re not married.
But if the man in an affair is married and committing adultery, his mistress, whether herself married or not, is participating in said affair. Both are in the wrong. I would (and unfortunately have had to) distance myself from a friend who did this. I am not any of the other posters here.
It’s wrong. But the unmarried person is not committing adultury.
The dictionary definition of adultery is literally gardening between a married person and someone who is not their spouse. The fact that someone doesn’t like to think of themselves as committing adultery because they are sleeping with a married person doesn’t change the definition. Words have means. If you are sleeping with a married person that you are not married to, you are an adulterer.
Right. If you’re this upset about the word “adultery” literally applying to both parties (and it does, literally) then you’re probably an adulterer who wants to be called something else.
Right! I think people used to say “double adultery” when both parties were married.
Adulterer seems nicer than homewrecker
You can’t blame the other woman for the choice the married man made. He is 100% responsible for his own actions. However, the other woman is responsible for her own actions, which are also morally wrong. I
don’t know why it would be okay to date someone else’s spouse if it’s not even okay to eat someone else’s lunch out of the office fridge.
+1. People who are in a closed relationship are off the market. As in, not available. Do not touch.
Thank you for this.
Yes — how is this hard to understand? You tread on that, and you are very much part of the problem, even if you aren’t the cheating spouse.
I agree with this. My ex husband cheated on me, and I still think both parties were morally wrong. I will always hate him more and think the “blame” is 100% on him because he made the vow to me. But, what she did was also morally wrong, just not in exactly the same way.
The analysis, for me, does shift if the affair partner doesn’t know the cheater is married or is told there’s a separation or filed divorce. I only blame the affair partner if he or she knows the cheater is in a relationship.
This.
A married guy has the ability to jump into your mouth, the sandwich doesn’t.
This thread seems to be built on the presumption that married people are trying to fend off affairs from homewreckers. It’s also possible for married people to initiate and seek out the affair.
Wait what? The married man has the ability to jump into your mouth? That’s a pretty tortured analogy – are you talking about r@pe? I don’t think anyone is thinking that someone who is r@ped by a married man is anything but a victim.
Don’t be obtuse. She’s saying that men, unlike sandwiches, have agency.
The fact that married men have agency does not negate the fact that their spouses have an exclusive claim on their romantic attentions, just as I have an exclusive claim in the sandwich I put in the office fridge with my name on it.
I didn’t disagree with that. I simply cleared up Anon at 2:20’s obvious misunderstanding and confusion. You can’t get mad at a sandwich for getting eaten by someone else, but you can get mad at your cheating husband for eating someone else.
OMG–did someone really just say that she had a claim on her husband just like she had a claim on her sandwich in the office fridge? i feel sorry for your husband, whose status has just been reduced to inanimate object.
the analogy of “claim to husband is the same as claim to sandwich in office fridge” doesn’t hold up. that sandwich isn’t tracking someone down, telling her that the original relationship is over, buying her nice presents, talking about the future. the sandwich is just sitting there. so of course people will leave it alone. the married husband who is actively pursuing another woman is a different story altogether.
I don’t blame them for the affair but I also don’t think it’s a good person move to be hooking up with someone married.
The non-married person is absolutely reprehensible… it’s akin to stealing what isn’t yours. Especially women who target married men because they like a challenge or it makes them feel more alive.
The married person also totally sucks.
You make it sound like marriage equals ownership…
Not the anonymous above, but I don’t see where you get this. Even disregarding any moral choices associated with marriage, and whether you like it or not, marriage is a widely recognized contract between two people but also generally recognized by implicit social contract within society at large.
I thought the “stealing” comment was very odd.
And that the married person is an object with no free will of its own. I mean I know that some women really like to make excuses for men’s bad behavior, but….
Yes, it seems like women who get mixed up with a married man once tend to do it again. I had a friend who did this once, and I chalked it up to a weak moment or stellar chemistry or something. But now every time I see her it seems like she has a new story about some level of inappropriate involvement with a man who is married or otherwise in a committed relationship. I wish I could just ignore this and keep being friends with her like we used to be, but I can’t bring myself to trust her after her ongoing series of bad choices. I know she probably just wants love or companionship, but it just doesn’t sit right with me no matter how hard I try to excuse it.
Agree. It’s a moral line that people either cross of they don’t. Like lying on a resume, stealing work or stealing something from a store. People don’t tend to do these kind of immoral things once and then never again. Once they cross that line, they feel free to cross it again. It’s why it is so hard for marriages to recover from adultery.
The onus is on the person in the relationship, of course, but I absolutely think it’s terrible and immoral for anyone to knowingly get into a relationship with someone married. I would have a hard time remaining friends with someone who made that kind of decision.
I think it’s the knowing component that makes me blame the married person more. When you get married, you make a promise not to be with others. You know what you did.
I cannot tell you how many guys I’ve met who were married, but never mentioned it or wore a ring. And then they were “separated” but that was sort of fuzzy, like you never saw any legal documentation confirming it (and in many states, including my current one, there is no such thing as a “legal separation,” so those people are still full-stop married also). Or their marital status was “it’s complicated” (no, dude, it’s like being pregnant — you are married or you are not married).
So, as a single person, you know you’re single. I’d never knowingly get involved with someone married. So I blame them more (while maybe being willing to cut the other person a bit of the break b/c they may not have the full story — a cheater is often a liar in many ways).
Absolutely all of this. Sure, sure, there’s a willful violation factor, and if married person lies, I think the paramour is a victim. But you’re right–knowingly getting involved with someone who is “getting a divorce” or “separated” is still bad news. Wait till the dust clears and they are actually single. In some states, the spouse can still actually sue the paramour for alienation of affection–even if a divorce was already pending!
I think you’re a bit ignorant about divorce law. In my state you can legit be getting a divorce for 4 years. In no state in the US is alienation of affection stills thing. Please don’t spread lies.
I also was under the impression that alienation of affection was still a thing! A shame if it isn’t.
Hey — in NC and SD you can be sued if you are the other woman (or man) for “alienation of affection.”
It is in North Carolina! There are still a few heartbalm actions every year in the state, and last year someone got a several-million dollar judgment on one. That and the fact you can marry your first cousin, but not your double first cousin (which I had to look up what that was), were my favorite random pieces of legal knowledge I had to learn for the NC bar.
I love how you say that a person here is “spreading lies” when they are in fact telling the truth.
I’m actually a divorce attorney, and yes, it is still a thing. Not in a majority of states, no, but there are still states that have it, and those cases do still get filed. Trust me, I had to do my research on this.
I mean know your state I guess, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a divorcing person dating prior to a judge signing the final paperwork. A divorce can take years in some states. I draw the line at, they’re no longer living together. And yeah I’m going to be looking through his closet and bathroom before I get involved with him.
This. If divorce is filed and they are no longer living together then I’m not sure I would consider that adultery.
In both of the states in which I practice, dating while the divorce is still pending is still legally adultery and can be grounds for the divorce, and can cost the offending party spousal support (in one state, it’s actually statutory that the offending party cannot get alimony). So it is potentially relevant to the divorce, and girlfriends and boyfriends can get subpoenaed in to testify, which is really not something you want to get involved in. It’s rare–usually divorcing parties just settle and no one goes there. But it can potentially weaken your legal position if you’re dating while the divorce is pending. Of course, there are 50 states, each with its own law, and every situation is unique, so YMMV.
I think blame always rests on the married person. They are the person who is with two different people. You don’t know what kind of manipulations that person is using to seduce and keep their affair going. People can be very manipulative. However, you also don’t know how dysfunctional the marriage in question is. There could be legitimate reasons for an affair, and reasons to keep the marriage going (kids, house, income, reputation, even family pressure or religion). Some people are happy in a three person relationship.
My family is very strange, we have a lot of extra marital situations. Multiple people have been in three person relationships for 20+ years (with the same people). Obviously its working for them. I myself am not a jealous person at all, and I think that is a key element to these situations.
I am not saying a three person relationship is ok for everyone, but I would never drop a friend entirely because of such a situation. People are in relationships for different reasons. Some people are in relationships for stability and a roof over their heads. Others are for love and companionship, others are strictly gardeners. I would not be upset if my partner chose to spend time with someone else to satisfy a need that I was incapable of giving. It might be something I want to end my relationship over, or it might not.
The real problem with an affair is the deceit, and that comes down to the married person lying to both people about what they are doing and what was going on. And this is the trouble with being the girlfriend in an affair, unless you know both parties, and know how they interact with each other, instead of being fed stories from the married person, its too easy to be manipulated into believing what that person wants you to believe.
The gymnastics you used to justify bad and even wrong behavior astound me. However, I do agree with you that deceit plays a role in who is wrong. Of course if a married person lies to his mistress who may not even know she is a mistress, the mistress would not be responsible or wrong in that situation.
“There could be legitimate reasons for an affair”
– there is NEVER a legitimate reason for an affair
“Some people are happy in a three person relationship.”
– this is not an affair. It is an open marriage. That’s a totally different thing. No one is talking about situations where the married people have agreed to open their marriage to other people.
Yeah open marriages are totally different. The question was about affairs.
What are your thoughts about relationships between people who are caregivers to disabled or chronically-ill spouses who aren’t able to be partners or support themselves?
the marriage vows are literally “in sickness or in health”. So they continue to apply even when one person is sick.
If there spouse is okay with it, then that’s not an affair that’s an open marriage. If their spouse is incapacitated but they previously discussed what the spouse would be okay with in this situation, than that it also an open marriage situation.
So if my spouse has a stroke and I have to put him in a home I can start dating???
I wouldn’t date a guy who said his wife was in a home . . . largely b/c I would have a sinking feeling that I was getting sold a bill of goods. But if it were true, it’s still a guy who couldn’t marry me if it worked out and I’d want that (maybe if I were 75 and it affected my social security or retirement benefits, that would be different).
My cousin once dated a woman who was going through a divorce. She kept trying to get back with her husband, “for the kids,” and he just resigned himself to getting strung along. I don’t think they ever finalized the divorce and my cousin eventually moved on. TL;DR — better to pick someone fully able to be in a relationship WITH YOU.
That is a special circumstance that is much more nuanced than the typical adulterous relationship.
This sounds like something from a soap opera . . .
Not from a soap opera; super common. Millions and millions of people are chronically ill or disabled or sick such that their partners will never get their needs met in a marriage. Do you judge the well partners more if they stay, and support their spouses in new ways while finding ways to fill their own needs, or if they go? Food for thought. Many of you will ultimately be in this situation.
There is equal blame on both parties. The married person is choosing to cheat on their spouse. The unmarried person is choosing to get involved with a married person.
I guess I’m a little bit of an outlier. It’s none of my business. I don’t know what’s going on behind closed doors. I don’t know what promises (ahem lies) have been made. I don’t know anything about the marriage that’s being violated. I try hard not to judge a situation I know relatively little about.
I also try to have some grace with imperfect people being imperfect. A situation can look very black and white from the outside but very gray when you’re in it. I have friends who have cheated and felt very remorseful after. I have friends whose spouse has cheated. It’s really not my decision whether the marriage stays together. I try to be supportive of my friends’ decision, not pile on more guilt and shame.
Whether or not a marriage stays together is an entirely different question/issue.
I agree. I have two relatives who stayed married after their husbands cheated and had children with the other woman. Growing up, all the children would be together for holidays and in one case, the other woman would be invited too. Not my circus.
I am maybe more indifferent if the people are merely married (although maybe less so — if no kids, how hard is it to get divorced and start over?!) but if the married person has kids, I really have no forgiveness. Date single people. Wait until you are divorced to date.
Cheating parents aren’t good parents. And it’s not fun being their kid — that thing has had a very long tail in the house I grew up with (dad married the person he cheated with (who was also married) and their marriage was awful b/c you can’t put two lying cheaters together in a house with a bunch of kids (his and hers) who are angry at the world and have it turn out anything but rotten).
Absolutely this.
I cannot stand the song Jolene for this exact reason…it wasn’t Jolene’s job to protect your relationship, maybe Dolly should have written a song about the boyfriend keeping it in his pants.
I just cannot get over the pearl clutching over this topic, frankly. A lot of people are in bad relationships, married or not, and they do things like have affairs. It doesn’t make them horrible people, and I’m not about to start judging them. If you think it’s wrong, don’t do it. I’m in that camp personally. I like a nice, drama free life and I’m in a happy marriage, so I don’t cheat. But guess what, that’s not the situation for a lot of people. I do not understand this “I would cut her off!” “She is evil!” reaction. I think a lot of people here just lack a lot of life experience.
I think it’s the opposite. People who have experience with adultery whether as a result of it destroying their parents marriage, or with their partner directly, or by watching their child suffer through an unfaithful partner, they realize how truly awful, selfish and destructive adultery is to partners, families and children. People who are cavalier about what horrible selfish behavior it is usually do not have direct experience.
+1
You should be directing you energy to the person who was unfaithful, though. I think that is where there is pushback.
Nope. I’ve been cheated on and it was devastating. I get it. But that doesn’t mean I condemn it or people who do it. Sure I was angry at both my ex-husband and her, but you know what, we had issues and the cheating was just a symptom not the cause. Call me smug married or whatever you want, ain’t gonna turn me into a judgeypants.
I disagree. Adultery ruined my parents marriage when I was very young and really cast a long shadow on my early life. My mom married the guy she cheated with, and he was/is kind of an @ss. My mom was a negligent and bad parent in a lot of ways, but now I see her differently. She did a terrible thing (actually, lots of terrible things), but that doesn’t necessarily make someone a terrible person. Maybe they are, but I do think that good people sometimes do terrible things. So it’s worth a robust assessment of that person’s character rather than overindexing on one event.
+1,000. So glad someone said it. I just didn’t have the words to articulate it.
Completely agree – the commentary on this post and the previous one shows a real nasty streak, and vers little grace.
It feels like you have no grace left when you have to go for STD testing b/c your husband started sleeping with someone in one of the spare call rooms at the hospital they both work at. And that is doing your STD testing. And is small enough that everyone else there knows that your husband is the latest conquest of “Kimmie.” And then you have fun re-tests to go take.
so It is nasty now to want other people to respect your marriage? No.
Agreed that I am surprised at this discussion. It just seems like there are a bunch of wives out there who are worried that all the single women are making plays for their husbands all the time. Your husband is not your property. And if he decides to cheat, that is on him. The woman that he is cheating with didn’t make any kind of commitment to you. He did. I don’t have an obligation to uphold the contract of marriage that you and your husband entered into. He does.
That’s a pretty smug perspective. I mean, there’s smugmarried and there’s Smug Married. You win some sort of award. I’m sure you’d be mad as hell at any woman who slept with your husband.
But I really don’t get the point of this thread. Like, are we just in the mood for a stoning? Who really thinks that being an affair partner is okay? I don’t see anyone making that case, this is just people piling on. Also, to Anon at 12:02, I think the person you’re responding to was reacting to people saying they’d cut friends off, not responses by the wife to the affair partner. There’s not much discussion of nuance anywhere, it’s just shame shame shame shame.
How on earth is this comment smug married? Just because you don’t agree with someone who’s married does not make them smug. Good grief.
Completely agree with this entire comment.
My comment above was meant to be in agreement with this one…
Absolutely this.
I cannot stand the song Jolene for this exact reason…it wasn’t Jolene’s job to protect your relationship, maybe Dolly should have written a song about the boyfriend keeping it in his pants.
I agree with you. The term homewrecker absolves the man of guilt for cheating. He wouldn’t have done it except **she** came along and tempted him. He was a pure and devoted husband otherwise. I think we all know that’s not a fair representation of most affairs. It reminds me of the line of reasoning that supports “modesty” culture. Men can’t help themselves. Must protect them from temptation. Rather than acknowledging that men actively make choices to cheat, we can forgive them if we pretend they were seduced by a hussy. Am I saying it’s okay to get involved with a married man? Absolutely not. Is it true that many men who cheat would have broken their marriage vows with person B if person A turned them down? Yep.
+100000 I find the commentary on this post super judgey. I don’t know how people can claim to know about marriages they aren’t in. I especially find the commentary of “if it’s an open relationship that’s different” entertaining. How on earth do you know whether it’s an open relationship or not? Or what the parties involved have told each other. Not my circus not my monkeys. I would be devastated if my DH cheated on me because of his violation of my trust, the commitment we made to each other. I wouldn’t want to spend time with the other woman or probably think kind thoughts about her but if DH cheated that’s on him not on some “temptress”. I find the language used to describe the other women frankly super sexist. No one seems to blame the “other man” when women cheat. Food for thought.
+1
Coming at this from a slightly different angle:
I had a friend hit on me when I was dating my now-husband. Said friend wouldn’t stop, and basically treated my relationship like it didn’t matter because (fill in lame justification). I dropped that longtime friend, because I didn’t want someone in my life who needed to be convinced to respect my relationship.
My husband had a married woman friend make some snotty comments to me about how “hot” and “available” he was. (She justified it by saying that we were not married, so he was available. It should be noted that she had just arrived back from a solo vacation with a married man and shared a bed with him.) She’s gone.
Marriage is so much more than dating, but I really think that some people just don’t respect other people’s relationships. We didn’t put up with that shirt when dating because we didn’t think those people would magically respect our relationship once rings were exchanged.
The excuses people make when the person is married are just more elaborate versions of the excuses they make when the person is unmarried but in an exclusive relationship.
A few years ago, I would have said the onus is on the married person… now I think it’s definitely a pile of selfishness on both sides. Some guy was almost frightening in his advances shortly after I got engaged. It just doesn’t matter – they want what they want, and they don’t want to hear reasons why they shouldn’t get it.
I don’t think being involved with a married person makes you a bad person either, but it seems like in most cases you’d have to be selfish, immature, disrespectful, rude, etc to get wrapped up in a situation like that. I think I’d be more understanding of someone who is 21 and still gaining life experience, vs someone who is in their late 30’s and should have more life experience to understand why it’s not a great situation to be in.
I don’t get what you’re asking. Do you think the mistress is blameless? I do think the married man is the bigger d0uchebag in this scenario, but it’s not like she’s Florence Nightingale. She knows he’s married and she’s sleeping with him. She’s also very much in the wrong.
And to add to that, she’s a terrible friend. In yesterday’s post, she was using her friend as backup plans if the married man didn’t show up to spend Valentine’s Day with her, and was bombarding her friend with texts about her feelings. Were her texts along the lines of, “please tell me I’m making a mistake and this man will never leave his wife”? Of course, not. Her texts were looking for support and commiseration. I would personally not be able to continue a friendship with someone so delusional and self-centered and, yes, immoral.
I was in a relationship with a married man for a bit. He 100% pursued me. It’s not something I looked for or ever thought I would do. I don’t know if he had an agreement with his wife or not (I expect no, or if there was he had to be discreet).
For a lot of reasons, being in a relationship that had no future or commitment was the right thing for me at the time.
Personally, I would never cheat when I am in a relationship.
I honestly don’t care if anyone thinks I’m a bad person because of this, I can look myself in the mirror every morning and be ok with my past.
yeah, you shouldn’t be able to “I can look myself in the mirror every morning and be ok with my past.”
And good luck with karma.
That was unnecessary. And no I’m not the person you’re responding to.
You people are shockingly unpleasent and judgmental. No-one asked you.
… Not that person either.
The OP literally asked. It’s what the entire thread is about.
So how do you think she should self-flagellate and for how long? What’s the punishment you’d like to mete out? Is self-forgiveness ever an option or should she resign herself to a life of shame?
So what you are saying was that what you wanted at that time was more important than that man’s marriage contract. I think there are many women who would agree with you.
Saying that it was he who pursued you is just finger pointing, you casting the blame on him instead of taking personal responsibility for your doing wrong.
There is no need to live in shame because that was in the past. But would you do it again if faced with the same choice today?
For a site with a million lawyers on it, there is a shocking lack of understanding about what a contract means and which parties it binds. HIS marriage contract, not hers.
In a contract sense, the affair partner is almost like the “tortious interference with a contract” situation. You’re not as bad as the cheating spouse, but you’re still doing something wrong.
What about tortious interference?
But that is not the case as it relates to this poster where the married man pursued her 100% – for tortious interference to apply here, the poster would have had to somehow convince the husband to cheat on the wife. That is plainly not the case here. Even in interference, the party to contract is still the one who decides to break the contract (even if at the influence of an outside party).
So was I. At the time I was separated (legally, not the US).
Regardless, I feel no guilt about the situation. He made promises, I didn’t.
I take no responsibilities for keeping others promises for them.
If I had been looking for forever, it might have been different because I would have been wanting him to break up his currently situation. but since I was mostly in it for the fabulous gardening, I did not influence his commitment elsewhere.
I think most of you are being sanctimonious and ridiculous. Frankly, what I expect of puritan US.
You’re just trying to make yourself feel better about being an adulterer. It’s immoral period. And not just in the ‘puritan US’. Source – living abroad for the last 30 years in 4 different countries for varying lengths of time. I’ve never had a friend group where when adultery happened it was NBD. I’ve seen it destroy many families.
Just because you don’t “feel” guilty doesn’t mean you aren’t guilty.
Guilty of what, though?
Since there is no-one else who can make that judgment, yes it does.
*serious eye-roll at the hysteria in this thread*
Yeah, some of these responses suggest that the appropriate punishment for adultery is a Sabbath in the stocks for Goody Singleton.
Someone please tell me what the affair partner is guilty of. She wasn’t party to the contract of marriage that you and your husband made. She is guilty of not following established standards? Ok–but that is a super minor offense. I don’t send Christmas cards or thank-you notes–also guilty of not following established standards. That is nowhere near the same level of problematic as breaking a contract. The blame falls 100% on the shoulders of the married man.
Re: “I was in a relationship with a married man for a bit. He 100% pursued me. ”
I’m with this Anonymous on this. Like you, I was once in a relationship with a married man who pursued me (I was 23 at the time, he was 36). I wasn’t thrilled by him being married and generally didn’t consider those guys, but we were attracted and he was persuasive. I also didn’t want any serious relationship at the time as I was young and still playing the field and was honest about the fact I was still dating others. I was told his marriage had been “over” for some time, but they lived together because of the kids and the house (high cost of living in that city). I thought he would just be fun sex on occasion. I never made demands on his time, never expected him to leave his relationship. It seemed nothing but a fling.
Well, seems his wife found out and kicked him out. Can’t say I blame her. I’d done the same if it were my husband. I was also not his first affair and I was his strike three.
I still don’t feel I did anything wrong or that I’m a bad person because I began sleeping with him. I was not the one cheating, lying and sneaking around, HE was. This is not the fault of the singleton in most cases.
I struggle with this whole issue immensely. I had a relationship with a married man when I was 20. I was an intern at the office he worked at. He didn’t wear a ring but I did find out later that he was married, at which point I was already smitten with him. He was in his early thirties at the time. It all moved very slow and was emotional at first, it took about a year for there to be any physical touch. He pursued me, which I know is not an excuse at all. He made me feel important, smart, beautiful, etc. He gave me difficult and interesting work. But to answer your question – we are BOTH fully to blame. I was young and selfish and too stupid to understand the impact this would have for years to come. We ended up breaking it off and no longer have any contact. I’m under the impression he is still married and his wife never found out. Seven years later, I am still dealing with crushing guilt from the whole thing and even with all the therapy in the world, I don’t think I will ever completely forgive myself for what I did. Now I am getting married next year and I am still haunted by it. I trust and love my soon to be husband but there will always be that little voice that tells me anything could happen (as in there’s always a possibility he could cheat on me), because I of all people, once participated which I never dreamed I would do.
I was in a very similar situation to you. All of the above, except that I was 23. We slept together once and made out a few times. I knew he was married, but he did the whole “we’re basically just roommates, we’re probably going to separate.” I felt awful and disgusted with myself, but I cared for him. We were friends. (I thought, I know better now.) I was in a vulnerable place in my life (career on fritz, recent death of family member.) I fell for the connection. I’ve forgiven myself–I know that he has had multiple other affair partners before me and after me–yes, I participated, but he would have broken his vows with or without me. If I said no, it wouldn’t have stopped him from cheating, it just wouldn’t have been with me. And by that point, I think we’d all agree he broke his vows anyway by pursuing me. Okay everyone, flog away. Headed to the tattoo parlor for my “A” after work.
If I said no, it wouldn’t have stopped him from cheating, it just wouldn’t have been with me. And by that point, I think we’d all agree he broke his vows anyway by pursuing me.
if everyone thinks like this, then yes he will always find another partner. But crazy idea that women start supporting each other by not sleeping with other people’s husbands! so weird right? Don’t forget to use red ink for your A.
Can you read? I didn’t do it *because* I reconciled that he’d just cheat with someone else– you’re misinterpreting my point. That was my perspective long after the fact. The point of what I said was to put the focus back on the cheating man, who broke his vows. I didn’t wreck his marriage. It was wrecked before he got to me. He wrecked it. I’m just one of the 3+ people he did it with. That’s the point. But hey, you got your rocks off on beating up on someone who shared a perspective with remorse, so I hope that made you feel good. There’s a real bloodlust in this thread and a desire to blame women for men’s bad behavior. Kind of unusual for this site. If he’s pursuing other women (especially those he supervises 10 years his junior), he’s ALREADY breaking his vows even if she never says yes, ladies. You chastise me for “not supporting women”, but if that’s your takeaway from what I wrote, then I can’t help you.
I don’t think the non-married person is entirely blameless, but the married person is the one who made vows and is the bigger a-hole. Long ago, I dated a few still-technically-married-but-separated/divorcing people, and I don’t feel any guilt about dating them due to their marital status.
The guilt I have about (one) of the relationships has more to do with how I treated him and everyone around me at the time. The being-married thing is on him.
Ok since there are clearly many of you who think being with a married man is a fine way to meet your next partner I will share my perspective as a 54 year old woman who has seen a lot.
1) the man who cheated on his wife with you will more than likely cheat on you with another woman, if he ever leaves his wife
2) a lot of cheaters are missing that “spark” in their existing relationship – this is a form of narcissism, where they need someone who is obsessed with an idealistic version of themselves, and not the real life version. They want to see themselves as this ideal person.
3) the former mistress/ new wife will spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to keep her now husband away from any women he might cheat with, including the ex wife
4) this is all incredibly toxic for any children involved
I have seen this all with my sister, with some of my closest friends.
If you’re the other woman, go into this with your eyes wide open. And please don’t take it out on the kids.
Whoa there’s a lot of assumptions here. I’m one of the people who said I don’t judge the other woman. I have never been the other woman. I would never recommend pursuing a married person for many of the reasons you articulated. I think doing so is a bad idea. I don’t think it makes you a bad person.
+1 000.
I have been cheated on. I give zero thoughts to the other girl, I have no idea what was going on in her life and I don’t care. I would not be thrilled if I met her in the street but that’s it. I generally don’t concern myself with the private lives of others, but I do care about the people in my private life being good people who keep their promises, which is why Mr. Cheater is now my ex.
Your last sentence summarizes my thoughts nicely.
I assume anyone who knowingly involves themselves with a married person probably has issues of their own they are working through because it’s just a bad idea and rarely ends well.
“Ok since there are clearly many of you who think being with a married man is a fine way to meet your next partner I will share my perspective as a 54 year old woman who has seen a lot.”
“Many of you”? Did we read the same thread? Put down the pitchfork. Plus, all this is common sense.
I tend to think it’s morally wrong to cheat and the blame lies on both the married person and the paramour (assuming they know the married person is married).
That said, many years ago somebody I worked with got involved with a married man who left his wife for her (no kids) and they have been married for 30-plus years now and are a fabulous couple and have a wonderful family and grandkids. Plainly they were meant for one another in a way the husband and his first wife just weren’t, and while the timing wasn’t fabulous, who am I to say he should have stayed in that unhappy marriage rather than marry my colleague? So while I wouldn’t do it, I don’t judge because the one thing I know for sure is that I don’t know what’s going on in anybody else’s marriage.
That’s a false dichotomy. The options are not cheat on his wife or miss out on his ‘true love’. He should have taken the third option which is get divorced first and then pursue the second wife. How is that not obvious to you?
I’m not saying this is morally correct, but the reason they didn’t do that is because you don’t know if the new relationship is worth leaving your spouse over until you pursue it. No one says “hmm, that new coworker is cute and we get along. I’m not super satisfied in my marriage, so ‘ll get divorced because I have a hunch that she’s the person I’m supposed to be with.” How is that not obvious to you?
I was super-judgmental about affairs until I full-on fell in love with a client a few years ago (I’ve posted about it here before). It was not something I went looking for or expected to have happen. I was not unhappy in my marriage. My husband is a good, kind, attentive person and our gardening life is very satisfying to me. I just met a person with whom I clicked on all levels – there was this incredible energy and connection between us that even other people commented on – and found myself really, really conflicted and heartsick. It was an amazing, disgusting, confusing, heartbreaking experience. Nothing physical ever happened but there were definitely some conversations between this man and myself that my husband would not have liked, if he had known about them. When semi-romantic interactions start happening with a person that is not your spouse, it’s sometimes hard to stop because – news flash – having someone pay attention to you, really listen to you, ask about your feelings and openly share their feelings feels amazing. It was wonderful to talk to someone about things other than house repairs and child care and all the minutiae that comes as part of the package when you live with another person; I fully understand the situation was exciting precisely because there was no shared commitment between us. This was not a situation where this other man and I were going to leave our spouses and run away together; we would have been disastrous as a real couple in the real world – but the possibilities were exciting to contemplate at a time when I needed some excitement in my life. I feel grateful that I was able to pull back from the situation before things went farther. I now have no contact with this person, which is for the best. But it totally changed my view of affairs because before my experience, I had no patience for the idea that things can “just happen.” Yes, the connection and the feelings absolutely can just happen. (Although I do still believe that gardening does not “just happen.”)
Thank you for your story. Life is not always as black and white as we sometimes think. There is a vast spectrum of people who have relations outside of marriage, the people they do it with, and the context in which it is done. The shade of gray on this spectrum where each of us puts our yardstick of right/wrong is different, and that’s ok.
I place the blame on the married person. They’re the one who is cheating and not able to control their impulses and hold to promises they made.
If the other person is single, well, there really isn’t obligation to anyone and they’re not cheating on anyone. Perhaps they shouldn’t date anyone married, but they are a free agent to pursue their own happiness. Sorry, but the old “homewrecker” adage is dead. A home can only be wrecked by the persons living in it. Now, if both parties are cheating on their spouses or SO’s, then they’re both pretty lousy people.
Does anyone use an albuterol inhaler for cold-related cough?
I don’t have asthma but many people on my dad’s side do. I have an inhaler at my desk and very tempted to use it. I have heard of people using ventolin for some types of cough especially on infants.
Was wondering whether that could help in my case. It’s just consistent cough and that tickle at the back of my throat, no fever, no runny nose, just non-stop non-phlegmy cough
albuterol is a maintenance medication. If anything would help, it would be the ventolin.
Sorry, this is not true. Albuterol is also a rescue inhaler. However, some people need to use it very frequently.
I was prescribed it for a bronchitis cough that wouldn’t go away.
I have when I was desperate – my cough was truly awful and nothing I’d been prescribed was helping. My son uses albuterol/budesonide for reactive asthma. While it helped whooo boy did it make me feel crazy/amped/etc. I disliked it so much I doubt I’ll do it again unless its an option of last resort.
+1–the side effect will be feeling hyped up, and possibly a racing pulse. I feel that way even when I use the albuterol prescribed to me in the middle of a legit asthma attack.
I have used both albuterol and ventolin for coughs (I have severe asthma, so I don’t ever really have a cold-related cough that wouldn’t also implicate my asthma). I think it could be useful if the cough is from constricted airways (if it’s chesty), but if it’s more throaty, then I can’t imagine that albuterol would help. The medicine helps open up airways but isn’t a cough suppressant.
My doctor gives me an albuterol inhaler any time I’m stuffed up or have a cough. I’ve had sinus infections and repeat bronchitis in the past so I believes he feels it is preventative, but even if not, I appreciate the symptom relief when i feel like crud.
For what it’s worth, it doesn’t seem to help me with dry throat-tickle coughing, but more when the coughing feels like it’s coming from deep in my lungs.
I used an albuterol inhaler for a few months when I was getting over whooping cough, never more than once or twice a day and just to break an escalating cycle of coughs that drinking cold water wouldn’t stop. It worked well enough that when I got the post-swine flu cough a few years later, the doctor gave me a new prescription, and it helped then too. But depending on what’s causing the cough, a cough suppressant like a codeine syrup might be more helpful.
What are the grippiest, ice-friendly commuter boots you love? Bonus points if they come in wide sizes. I don’t care what they look like, as long as they keep me from busting my a$$. I’ll wear crampons to work if I have to.
Yaktrax to go over your boots. Yesterday, I wore mine through ice so bad my office was closed, and felt totally solid at every step.
+1, Yaktrax or Stabilicers.
I have the LL Bean “chelsea” bean boots (slip on style) in black. They’re not the most beautiful but they slip on and off and are fairly warm and very grippy. Note that they run 1-2 sizes large.
J. Crew Nordic
I have the Columbia Minx boots after years of suffering with Sorrels which cut up my ankles terribly. The Columbia boots are so comfortable that I am walking on clouds. And they are super grippy. They do run very hot though, so something to consider if your feet get hot… My only problem is that the laces can be hard to thread through the little loops.
https://www.amazon.ca/Columbia-Womens-II-Omni-Heat-Winter/dp/B00GW8GK7Q/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=columbia+boots&qid=1550242748&s=gateway&sr=8-4
I also have a pair of columbias, super warm, but the treds on the bottom have worn off, so they are not as grippy as I would want and slip on tile. These do run warm, so i always pack spare shoes to wear once I get to the office.
Another vote for Columbia. DH bought some last fall, and he’s only slipped a couple times in hours every day of walking a leash-pulling dog on wet ice.
I also wear Yaktrax, I love them.
On our recent theme of country clothing…
Can anyone recommend casual-casual officewear that has a southwestern or western vibe to it? In my office, most women wear either lululemon or pendleton; I could dress like the sundance catalog and fit in, but I can really only afford AT price range.
There are lots of boot cut jeans this year. Frye or Jack Rodgers for booties and shoes. I will be watching this thread for tops and sweaters.
Chambray or khaki shirts! https://www.target.com/p/women-s-long-sleeve-soft-twill-shirt—universal-thread–153–olive-xl/-/A-53490877
Western booties are super trendy right now: https://shop.nordstrom.com/s/sam-edelman-winona-genuine-calf-hair-bootie-women/5104690?
Or a moccasin bootie: https://shop.nordstrom.com/s/minnetonka-fringed-moccasin-bootie-women/3090760
You’ll have to sort through the boho, but Free People also does Western: https://www.nordstromrack.com/shop/product/2638544/free-people-northern-bound-plaid-pullover?color=ONYX
https://www.nordstromrack.com/shop/product/2712475/free-people-all-about-the-feels-plaid-shirt?color=PLUM
https://www.nordstromrack.com/shop/product/2789947/free-people-cozy-cabin-cardigan?color=BLACK
Prana may have some oversized cardigans and tops that work for a southwestern vibe.
I second the recommendation for Frye shoes. They are beautiful but skew a bit too western for my personal style — so I think they’d be perfect for what you’re going for!
I have a relative who dresses that way and she is not even an AT level shopper. I know she likes the brand Chaps at Kohl’s and also gets stuff here and there from a Walmart and Target when she sees something that fits her southwestern vibe. She likes turquoise jewelry too, but looking at the Sundance catalog myself I’ve always thought you could find equivalent jewelry much cheaper at street fairs. Or Etsy. I used to make jewelry as a hobby and I always think I could literally make 3/4 of the Sundance jewelry myself.
Thanks, but I’m going for a step above Walmart, for sure. Bless your heart…
Wait, what? Just because you shop at AT, everyone should automatically know that you are too good for Walmart?
I don’t shop at either AT or Walmart, but I am not going to assume that someone is trying to insult me by suggesting an item from either store.
Um, yeah, there’s a very visible difference in quality between the two. Walmart clothes are made with poor fit, poor construction, and well, AT doesn’t have great materials, but some places you can get better materials for the same price point.
Also, only one is incredibly stigmatized. At best, they’re frequently boycotted for their damaging economic practices, and at worst, the customers are mocked and shamed as an example of low class and poor choices. So yes, I take some offense at the comment.
And I take some offense at how snotty you were about my well-intentioned comment. (11:31) Bless your heart.
I shop at both AT and Walmart, and I have to say it has not been my experience that AT clothes have better quality construction.
You would do better to be offended by the elitist snobbery of people who look down on Walmart customers for being “low class” and making “poor choices” than to be offended by the idea you’d shop at a Walmart.
You claim good intentions, but you implied that the style of clothing I wear is cheap, low class, and requires only amateur skill to make.
You are a horrible person and I regret trying to help you. I implied nothing of the sort. I told you where my relative (whom I love! Who always looks great!) gets her Sundance style clothing.
Also LOL at the idea that someone who makes clothing for Kohl’s is an amateur compared to someone who makes clothing for Ann Taylor. They probably use the same chinese factories, same personnel. It’s not like you’re talking couture.
That’s right… Because Walmart has its very own garment factories staffed by low-skill amateurs. Give me a break. Anon’s respectful assumption was that you, as the shopper, have the discernment to pick out stylish and quality items wherever they are sold. Sundance styles are all about basic fabrics like 100% cotton and designs that were perfected decades ago. Trust me, Walmart’s clothing is stitched on the same machines as anything else you buy if you’re shopping at an AT price point.
Lauren Ralph Lauren might have some pieces, or Polo Ralph Lauren if you sale stalk.
About women’s dress shirts for work, what kind of collar do you prefer, soft collar or hard ones.
Soft. Hard collars tend to hit my jawline and get makeup on them.
+1 nothing worse than dark foundation on a crisp white collar
And that is me every time I have to wear my robes to court. Ugh.
Jewelnecks.
No collar (jewelneck), secretary blouse, or if it has a collar, something that looks nice buttoned all the way up (has a tie, etc.) so it doesn’t hit me in the face/lays flat with a suit or blazer. Regular collared shirts are the worst.
Hard collars (but not like super stiff) for a power look, soft for a more feminine/casual look.
Although maybe i should start inspecting my hard collars for makeup stains
Does the Native deodorant from the website still work as well as it did in the past? Reviews from the Target website say that it doesn’t work as well. I’m not sure if that is because Native has completely changed their formulation, or because they sell a “watered down” version at Target. I’m also interested in their toothpaste and bodywash, if anyone has info on those.
I don’t notice any difference between my most recent Native stick and my first couple. All have been bought from their website.
I use native deodorant and buy from the website (it’s free shipping, so why not?). One theme in some of the target reviews seems to partly be a lack of understanding that it takes about 2 weeks for your body to acclimate to a natural deodorant and you might need to reapply midday if that’s the case in order to successfully wait out the transitional period. I have been using native deodorant for about a year and don’t notice any difference in its efficacy than when I started. FWIW I use the sensitive skin one which doesn’t have baking soda in it, which works for me but may not for others. I was pleasantly surprised to find that although it isn’t an antiperspirant, my body somehow sweat through it way less than secret clinical. I still do sweat some, but no wet patches underarm or yellowing stains on shirts.
No info on toothpaste or body wash but the deodorant scents are very appealing, so I imagine the soap/body wash would be, as well.
I love these pants.
Absolutely no snark intended: I am pretty sure I purchased these pants from the Delia*s catalog circa 1997.
I also 100% had a pair of these, to be worn with those foam sketchers platform sandals…
Now I know why I liked this pick so much! :) I was too young to buy but omg I loved that catalog!
Has anyone used California closets (or similar type company, or even just a solo contractor) to do a custom walk in closet and if so, do you mind sharing how much it cost? Nothing too fancy but just pretty basic built ins for storing clothes, shoes and maybe jewelry. My closet is on the smaller side… maybe 5×7?
Where are you located? I’ve done them in NYC (boroughs, but still $$$) and suburbs ($$), both times through ‘a guy’ recommended by friends/contractors, never by California closets directly. Our smallest closet in the ‘burbs (coat closet) was done for around $300, the largest one closer to $700, but we also did them two at a time for a discount. I went with the cheapest white wood/bars, and didn’t do any sliding drawer or cabinets, basically just built out cubbies and subdivided the bars. If you want more bells and whistles it can easily get into a few grand. The long but shallow closet I did in NYC was easily $1.5k, and had some nicer finishes as I was selling soon and it was a definite selling feature.
It also made a HUGE difference in our organizational abilities and really helped me store/organize kid clothing much more easily, I’d wholeheartedly recommend doing it.
We’re in philly. Definitely want some drawers, shelves and hanging areas. I think we’re willing to spend around $2k but not sure if that’s enough to get what we want.
I didn’t end up doing this but when I moved, my contractor recommended that I do a custom closet based on the Ikea closet system. Essentially, you can get a pretty customized and beautiful closet, and you can still get a contractor or “person” to help with the installation but it’s much more cost effective.
The Container Store is having an Elfa sale right now, which may be worth checking out.
Our Container Store closet (small walk-in) cost about $2k.
I’ve used Easy Closets– quality seems very similar to California Closets, honestly, though if you care about fancy finishes, Easy Closets doesn’t have quite as many options. Delivery is fast (since it’s semi-custom), and note that they frequently have sales.
I had a great experience with Easy Closets some years ago. I hired somebody to install it and it still ended up costing quite a bit less than California Closets.
I did my closet with California Closets a few years ago. I have a pretty good closet, really don’t know the dimensions though. But I paid $4500 and it was totally worth it. I now have closet rods way up high where I put seasonal clothes; before my reno it was all wasted space. I also have one big section for shoes, one for purses, 2 jewelry drawers with inserts, valet rods, pull out baskets…it’s a dream. Nothing is ever on the floor now. It was the best money i’ve ever spent. They’ll come in and give you a free estimate. Use that to get other estimates. I was then able to use suggestions from several of the estimates to make my dream closet.
Dishwasher help please! Our 10-12~ yr old dishwasher is finally biting the dust, and after having it repaired a few times we’re going to just get a new one with the holiday weekend sales. I have a strong aversion to LG after an awful experience with their washing machine, but otherwise open. Anyone really love their dishwasher, or have a favorite brand? Would prefer to try to keep it at or under $1k.
No real advice, but dishwashers with third racks look really nice.
The best I have ever used was a KitchenAid. Some relatives with them say the same thing.
My Kitchen Aid came with my house in 2005 and is still going strong!
We have a Bosch with the utensil rack rather than baskets and it makes life so much easier.
I’ve had Maytag dishwashers in two houses now, and I’ve been very pleased. They’re just good, solid workhorses. I think both have been mid- to higher-end models bought during an end-of-season closeout.
I also swear by going to a local appliance store rather than Lowes/Home Depot/or the like. They tend to carry the more tested, high-quality models, compared to the big box stores in my area. Most of the time, the local store will price match or get close to it.
Whatever you get, take a bowl and plate with you when you look. We didn’t, and ended up getting new bowls…
Bosch. We have a mid level Bosch and it cleans well, is efficient, and is so quiet that the loudest noise out of it is the sound of the water sloshing around. There is no mechanical noise whatsoever.
Had a mid-entry level Bosch before, and now have a fancy GE. I liked the Bosch better and I believe Consumer Reports routinely picks a Bosch in its top ones year after year.
Just went through this search, including toting a platter, a cutting board, a plate and a bowl all over town. Did the search as “money is no object” and looked at Miele, Thermador, Kitchenaid, etc. as well as the big box store brands. I ended up deciding on a model in the Bosch 800 series with 3 racks (including adjustable 2d and 3d racks and an “expandable” 3d rack that I can put bowls and tea cups into). Price will be about $1050; I am hunting this weekend for a deal on install and delivery.
Are promo codes a thing for MM La Fleur? Have a lot sitting in my shopping cart and was about to pull the trigger, but wanted to double check.
Nope. I’ve neber seen one. They had a small private clearance sale just after Christmas (i think you needed the specific url to get in) but those items were non returnable. Other than that, the items are generally full price.
Agree, they almost never have sales.
Seeking suggestions for a leather crossbody small purse, just enough to hold an iphone X and keys when I go to the playground. My old go-to was a Coach mini bag but my new phone doesn’t fit anymore, and the new Coach bags are too branded for my liking. I’d like to keep it around $100 if possible. Suggestions?
If you wanted to go slightly whimsical, I really like the Orla Kiely travel pouch. I have the waxed canvas but I think they do leather as well.
I’m guessing this isn’t what you’re looking for, but since you mentioned playground, Old Navy has a cute assortment of cross-bodies for $20.
Two days in a row probably makes me the resident Hobo evangelist, but they have a few crossbodies that might fit the bill. Some are tiny purses (the Fern, Riff, or Cadence), while they also have a couple that are basically a cellphone case on a strap which could work if you attached your keys to the strap (Token or Moxie). They’re over $100, but they you can get 20% off fairly frequently. I think that’s my next purchase.
The Cuyana Crossbody pouch looks perfect for this: https://www.cuyana.com/crossbody-pouch.html#burgundy
That IS perfect. Thank you!
I love my Letherology Addison crossbody, it comes in multuple colors and is super comfy to carry around. Lots of pockets (imcluding a zippered inside pocket) and super light. It’s my go-to bag when I travel and have to carry my phone/wallet/keys/passport/sunglasses all day long (I have a very bad back/neck and cannot carry “regular” handbacks).
Link: https://www.leatherology.com/crossbody-leather-handbags/
Help. I’m online dating (bleh), and met someone interesting 5 weeks ago. From before we met he said he wanted to take things slowly, that he didn’t want to accidentally get into a relationship but to be deliberate and make sure it was what we both wanted. He said he wasn’t necessarily seeing other people, but that we both should feel free to do so if we felt like it. I said that sounded good to me.
In some ways, things have been proceeding at a moderate pace as planned. We’ve seen each other once a week, though almost every time it’s been plans made the day before, casually. I’ve still been going on one-off dates with other people, and I’ve seen him as signed onto the app, at least. He told me Happy Valentine’s Day but we didn’t do anything or even talk about doing anything.
But in other ways, we haven’t taken it slowly. When we get together, we tend to spend almost 24 hours together, sleeping over at one person’s house and just spending a lot of time together. He sends me at least one substantive email a day, usually initiating the contact, and I would say I spend 30 minutes to an hour every day on this guy, writing emails, talking to him on the phone, etc. That’s a lot of time for someone you’re not dating!
So now I feel like I’m in a weird place. If I’m spending 30+ min of my life every day interacting with someone, I want that person to be my boyfriend…while at the same time I would be content to let this progress slowly/naturally while seeing other people if I spent less time on him. Yet, I enjoy the time I spend with him and it makes me happy to see an email from him…
It’s time to have a “define the relationship” conversation, I’m afraid. It doesn’t sound like you’re interested in dating other guys, so he’s the only one benefiting from the current “not dating” arrangement. (This sounds like dating to me, FWIW.)
Your options are:
– have the DTR conversation and, express that you want to be exclusive (assuming you do); or
– spend less time on him and continue to date other people.
You are in the driver’s seat here. Take the wheel!
Either have that conversation with him or stop doing it. Can’t have it both ways.
That’s a lot of red flags to me. It’s better to let him initiate the are we exclusive relationship. Until then, I would not be so eager to reply to his emails. Maybe reply once every two or three days instead of one, and scale back on the amount of emotional investment you put in the replies.
What are the red flags you see?
WTF?! If she doesn’t like what is happening at the moment, or if she has any questions about the relationship, she can initiate any conversation she wants!!
I will say the in my experience when a guy says he wants to take things slow it means he doesn’t want a relationship with you or any of the responsibility that comes with it, but he wants all the benefits and gardening of s relationship. I would guess that he doesn’t want to commit period. Either way, talk to him about it.
+1,000,000,000……
Getting an add for a …taser? in the big righthand box. SO strange and what a visual for my work screen! At work and unable to install adblocker, before anyone asks/suggests.
Someone left flowers and a beautiful note on my front porch last night. It was such a sweet and thoughtful gesture! The note was printed and unsigned, so it’s unlikely that I would recognize handwriting. My friends who are likely candidates (and could have gone to Whole Foods for flowers, then to my house yesterday) are denying that they are responsible. I wish I knew who so I could thank them!
How nice! I would tell the story to all of the suspects so they know how much you enjoyed the surprise. And/or post on social media. Then pay it forward another time.
I surprise my friends with little gifts a lot. I guess it’s my love language. I did take a photo of the tulips and posted it on Fb with thank you. There was some discussion, but nobody owned up.
This is so sweet! Nice timing for such a wonderful surprise!
I had this happen to me a few years ago. Turned out it was sent by a creepy neighbor who was my grandpa’s age, who proceeded to ask me out on a date. I immediately threw out the flowers afterwards.
Yeah, I had a stalker a number of years ago who did this.
I know! It was a little weird and it’s one of the reasons why I’d like to know. But I really do think it was a girlfriend who knows what I’ve been going through lately. Otherwise, people in general don’t know where I live. None of my neighbors have a clue about my private life.
I have a friend coming to stay next weekend – she has two kids (6 and 4) and they are not well behaved. Think, hitting people, screaming in the car when adults talk – not in pain/tired/hungry screams, they just don’t like it when they aren’t included, refuse to eat anything other than McDonald’s or similar. I grew up differently and am not trying to knock the free, child-driven style (no routine, no set bedtime, they nap if they feel like it, not if she thinks they are tired). I do not necessarily agree with this, but they aren’t my kids.
My questions are 1) where do I take them to eat/have fun? We have McDonald’s, but I really don’t want to eat there 6 times in a weekend. Are they old enough for somewhere like ChuckECheese? Is it OK for me to suggest we get food delivered to the hotel a couple times? It is freezing outdoors – science museum?
2) I have a huge issue with letting kids hit people. Her older daughter punched and kicked me last summer at the dinner table because I told her I had to finish eating before I would go play with her. Parents watched it and did nothing. I was so shocked, I sort of let it happen. What is appropriate for me to say? Can I grab wrists? I don’t want to “back down” from a 6 year old, but I don’t feel like getting beat up, either.
You don’t have to allow the kid to hit you. You are the grownup. Say in a stern voice, “Do not hit me.” Or “In my house we do not hit other people.” Then get up and walk away. The trick is to be perfectly steely. Calm yet forceful.
Do not engage physically with a child who is not yours.
Yikes, I guess it’s too late to cancel? For #1, ask the hotel? If you can provide the location, folks might have some suggestions. For #2, tell them in a calm low voice, do not hit me, and/or, I do not want to play with someone who hits me. You can sort of block the attacks but no I don’t think you can grab wrists unless they are actually hurting you (others may disagree though).
Part of this depends on how close you are to your friend, too. Can you call your friend ahead of time and ask for suggestions? She and you should be in alignment on strategies. It’s fair to say, last time little Janie kicked me, I wasn’t sure what to do, but I don’t allow kicking or other violence in my house. How would you like me to handle it if it happens again?
I’m a parent and I wouldn’t want to spend an hour with these kids, let alone a weekend! If the kid hits, you can calmly, yet firmly, say, “In my house, the rule is that we don’t hurt people.” It’s not really a judgment on the parents; you’re just outlining how things work in YOUR home. If it happens again, leave the room and calmly explain why: “I’m sorry to leave, but I don’t like getting hurt.”
(But do be careful with physical contact; some parents — especially the non-involved type — will not take that well.)
I would definitely look for opportunities to get out of the house as much as possible: children’s museums, play places. Ordering in sounds like a good idea. Another thought — if your city has a drop-in daycare place, I might suggest that so you and your friend can get 2-3 hours to catch up in peace.
Good luck.
Man, do not drop these kids on unsuspecting child care providers or the other children in their care. Not cool.
Do not go to Chuck E. Cheese if you do not like hearing kids scream.
Disclaimer: I do not have kids. However– my cousin’s kids are like this so am at list familiar with the situation.
1) I think this is an easy fix. They are totally old enough for Chuck E Cheese and places like the science museum. I’m assuming your strategy for this is to let the kids play so you don’t have to deal with them and can talk to the mom, etc. These places seem great for that. Also, with the food, my brother was a very picky eater growing up, and we frequently would pick up McDonald’s for him and food for ourselves from somewhere else. I hope this is what your friend does, and if you suggest this, it would probably be fine. Also agree that having food delivered may be a better option so you don’t have to be concerned with behavioral issues with the kids at restaurants.
2) I’m not really sure what parent wouldn’t have issues with their kid hitting someone? I find this odd. I think you may have to wait until this happens though to address it. I also would maybe address this with the parents out of earshot of the child once it does happen.
Ummm, I know that this is not the question that you asked, but it is perfectly fine to tell another human being not to hit you. Yes, this is a child, but there are developmentally appropriate ways to get her to stop. Ask her, “is it nice to hit/hurt other people?” Connect the bad behavior with the consequence, “I don’t play with people who hit me.”
Good for you for not judging your friend’s choices as a parent! Luckily I am a stranger on the internet, so I don’t have to worry about preserving a friendship. What she is doing as a parent is insane. Check out the Baumrind Longitudinal Study. There are decades of research showing that letting kids do whatever they want can be just a bad as being overly strict and authoritarian. Kids do best when the adults around then have high expectations for their behavior and also give lots of affection.
Good luck!
-an early childhood educator
Thank you – I will check this study out! I am trying to be respectful of her choices while not agreeing. She doesn’t ask for advice, and I don’t give it kind of thing. Right now I hope that when her kids go to school (starting next year for the older one), the structure will help them build a routine and maybe other behaviors.
“Don’t hit me.” This is okay to say.
Wow, they need to not stay with you if they’re going to act like that.
“Hitting people is never okay.” If your friend does not intervene, you kind of have to ditch the friendship, honestly. I don’t think I could ever stay friends with someone whose kids physically hurt me and who did not intervene. Some parenting styles are not effective or beneficial and maybe your friend needs to learn that there are consequences (like losing old friends) when you don’t raise your kids well.
I doubt it is true that hitting is never okay, and I don’t like lying to kids. But it’s 100% true that you can’t expect to hit people without consequences. I would not be a doormat here; I have my own boundaries, and I won’t stand for being hit. “I don’t let people hit me like that, so I’m going to leave now.”
I’m a mom and proud auntie and pretty tolerant of kids being kids (I’d much rather be in a restaurant where there’s a whiny kid than some douchebro bragging about parkour or whatever) but hitting would definitely cross a line for me. I would say “don’t hit me” for sure! And if your mom friend gives you any grief about it at all I would tell her that I have a right not to be hit, and I would also not invite her again.
In terms of food, going out for lots of meals with ill behaved kids is going to be really hard. Can you stock up on frozen shoestring fries (or maybe waffle fries), frozen chicken nuggets, baby carrots and some kind of dip (ranch or hummus), presliced apples, those dried snap pea snacks (can’t remember what they’re called) and some kind of juice boxes? Also ketchup is a must, and it must be Heinz brand. Scrambled eggs are also a good option for fussy kids in my experience.
Most casual places will have kids menus with standard chicken tenders, grilled cheese, hamburger, pasta. Mexican tends to be good (bc chips!). Also, are there any places with TV? That might buy you some peace. I don’t like resorting to devices at restaurants, but sometimes you do what you have to do. A couple of activity pads and some crayons are also an option. Your friend should be able to help here. For activities, kids spaces at museums or bounce places are good. Bowling is fun too and they can probably handle a movie.
Ugh, I would absolutely choose McDonald’s over chuck e cheese’s. That place is the worst. Search for an indoor playground, one of those bounce house places. But also, if they aren’t well behaved, they shouldn’t get “rewarded” by going to a place like that.
And yes, agree with others that you can tell the child not to hit you. And you can not indulge them either if their behavior is bad. So if she hits you because she wants you to play with her, guess what, she doesn’t get to have you play with her.
This is tough – good luck!
I have two kids and if the only thing they ate was McDonald’s, I would not expect other people to eat it with us. I have friends with kids who are really picky eater and they fully acknowledge that and will bring/order other food for them. You do not have to pander to the kids food tastes. I mean you can’t bring McDonalds to a restaurant, but you can say, “Let’s order take out from here and we can pick up McDonald’s on the way back for the kids.”
Chances are your friend knows her kids are difficult, but there are so many mixed messages you get about parenting, and it takes so much energy to be firm with kids, that she is probably exhausted and is taking the path of least resistance. Speaking for myself, I am 100% ok with other people telling my kids like it is when they are being rude or unkind.
What is a good way to get into NBA basketball? I was on the b-ball team in high school but never got into the whole NBA thing. Now I have a boss who loves the Knicks, so sometimes I will chat with him about the Knicks’ losing streak. He mentioned something about its losing streak not changing till April. What is the significance of April?
The best way to get into NBA basketball has changed. It used to be that you needed to be near 7 feet tall and could dunk. Now it is more important to be able to sink the three point shot 50% of the time or more ala Steph Curry. But you’re probably too late for any of this, and likely also female.
LOL
Lol. Three point shot actually used to be my expertise (despite being a girl).
Their season will be over. That’s when playoffs start. To get into it… watch it. If you watch TNT or ESPN, you will get more of a national viewpoint. If you want to know about the Knicks, watch their games every now and again.
I don’t have cable. Guess I should just have the courage to walk into a sports bar and watch a game by myself one of these days.
Reddit has (illegal) streams of most games (r/nbastreams I believe). Also if you’re on social media, follow sports writers who report on the Knicks or keep up with the knicks/nba subreddits (just skimming posts and top comments might give you options for friendly convo).
Just FYI I love watching sports games at a bar. I would go to a more casual low key bar with tvs on rather than a strict sports bar. People are chill. Just sit at the bar and watch the game. It’s a good way to get into it because you can have a drink or eat something, watch the game, talk to the bartender and/or people around you so you don’t have to focus 100% on the game.
I know this will differ for everyone, but I was hoping to get an idea of how much life insurance my husband and I should get. Ages 29 (me) and 34, no kids but hopefully soon. $260k mortgage and no other debts. Is there a baseline number that most people have? What about term length? Is it typically better to use the same insurance company we have for our homeowners, or is it worthwhile to shop around for different rates? Apologies if these are really dumb questions.
I have a million per kid but I bought it 16-18 years ago (the ages of my kids now.) I might do a million and a half to two million per kid now. This is separate from my husband’s life insurance – I have more because I’m the breadwinner and because I am younger – and separate from any life insurance we get through work.
Get it now. After a couple of cancer scares (I’m fine) I doubt I could have bought any life insurance even 5 years after my kids were born.
Counterpoint. Not something I’ve ever invested in. Both my husband and I could support ourselves without the other. No kids. We have disability insurance instead and invest elsewhere to have a robust portfolio.
Oh right. I wouldn’t have muchlife insurance if I didn’t have kids. (I’m the anon with a million per kid). I responded that way because the poster said “hopefully soon” on kids.
I don’t have much advice but I just wanted to chime in to say it’s really smart of you to get life insurance sooner rather than later. I know so many people who put it off even though they rely on both incomes. An acquaintance lost her house after her 30 year old husband died of brain cancer (in under 6 months, so not like they had much time to plan). They always said they’d get life insurance when they had kids. Actually this post reminded me to check in on her.
Definitely get it before you get pregnant. Fun fact: insurance companies do not care if you were hospitalized and gained 40 pounds and lost 30 pounds within the past year because you were pregnant – they will just ding you for all 3. Our house is the same value as yours and my husband and I each have $1 million with a 20-year term. We only have one kid and don’t plan on having more, so I don’t know if we would get more coverage if we had another kid. We have a financial planner that we use, so he set it up for us and it is not through the same company our other insurance is through.
Life insurance is for kids imo. Can’t your husband support himself if you die? Maybe $100k to cover funeral costs and some unpaid time off, but you don’t need to make him a millionaire.
This doesn’t seem like a very thoughtful comment. What about medical expenses from an ICU stay? Most people don’t die “for free.”
Huh? Health insurance covers medical expenses while you’re alive. Unless you have terrible or non-existent health insurance you won’t leave huge medical bills when you die.
We took out about 10 times our highest breadwinner’s annual income, which worked out to be a few million dollars.
Please ignore all of the previous posters and go see a financial services professional or a financial advisor about this, rather than relying on people who don’t know what they’re talking about.
Thanks to the helpful responses; they gave me an idea of what kind of ballpark we should be in. Anon at 2:53, not sure why you don’t think prior posters didn’t know what they’re talking about. And yes Anon at 2:02, that is why I included the information that we plan to have children soon. Though if I die without children, I wouldn’t mind if my husband got to become a millionaire.
Hive, I’m looking for advice on how you structure your work flow and manage your time. I’m in a litigation practice, although I rarely go to trial because the nature of my field is that cases resolve through ADR. I’ve had a long run of complex motion practice that requires a lot of focus and I’m struggling to balance that with timely responses to email/opposing counsel demands/phone calls/meetings and the rest of litigation requirements (discovery). I have access to a paralegal that I give work to, although not an associate. For reasons, I am also responsible for reviewing the more junior associate’s work – which is pretty time consuming too. I’m on a reduced schedule and I gave up certain things (benefits) to get it, so I’d prefer not to simply work more. What works for you as far as getting the most out of your time at work? Lists, time blocking…?
Yep, block off time for the little tasks (email, phone calls, etc.). I know some people in my office who use whiteboards to track deadlines, tasks, and “waiting response.” I use a Planner Pad and list out everything that I need to do. Then when I need a break from a big task or I’m feeling unfocused, I tackle a bunch of little tasks.
I’m also in a litigation practice and feel like it’s a constant trade-off between finding time for focused, deep work and responding to the million emails, phone calls, and small tasks that come up each day. The things that work for me are: 1. Aggressive time blocking (and reminding myself that urgent is not the same as important). I block times on my calendar for deep work, listing out what I plan to do during that time. And I also block time for answering emails, etc. That helps me keep the email checking from taking up my entire day and eating into my concentration. 2. Keep a running to-do list. I use WorkFlowy, but a legal pad, Word doc, etc. would work just as well. It helps to put the to-do’s on paper so they don’t take up space in my brain. 3. Take time to schedule my work. I spend time every evening and a longer chunk on the weekends looking at what I have coming up, what I need to get done, and blocking out when I’m going to do it. It takes maybe 10 minutes at the end of each day and 30 minutes on Sunday afternoon, and keeps me from feeling panicked about how I’m going to get it all done. I’m looking forward to hearing other suggestions on this thread!
Litigator here on a reduced schedule. I use my most productive time for complex tasks and just don’t check email during that time. I use my less productive time for meetings, email, timesheets and billing and collections. I make a list every morning of what has to be done that day and a list of what would be nice to do. I update them the next morning.
I’m looking for recommendations for new everyday dishes to replace a 15-year-old stoneware set that is chipped and cracked. (But my gosh, the coffee mugs are still awesome.)
Now that my kids are old enough to load/unload the dishwasher, I’d prefer something more lightweight than stoneware. I also am not a fan of the big, oversized dishes that fall over in the dishwasher OR square plates. I don’t know why; square plates just really bug me!
Corelle is light and easy for kids to handle.
+1 switched from $$$ Johnson brothers ironware to $ Corelle and never looked back.
Corelle! They’re lighter than stoneware and can take a beating. Also, you can frequently pick up full sets at thrift shops.
I really like my Neveah porcelain bone china. It is gorgeous and elegant, comes in a variety of styles and is relatively inexpensive. It also doesn’t get as hot in the microwave as my stoneware. I think only Bed Bath and Beyond carries it, but that means you can use coupons to get it on sale.
Villeroy and Boch? Ours has lasted 18 years with zero special care. They have modern patterns in addition to country patterns.
+1 to Villeroy & Boch
I need a script for telling family that I’ll be staying in a hotel for my upcoming visit. I know they will be hurt and offended. They will likely pry and try to change my mind. The last time I stayed with them was very unpleasant and I’m not interested in a repeat. They treated me like a child (I’m 35, and the family members in question are not my parents/parental figures so there’s no excuse). They pressured me to go to church with them (I politely but firmly said no thank you several times). They blamed me for anything and everything that went wrong in the house that had nothing to do with me (i.e.: them: you know we like to keep this interior door closed. me: …yes I know to keep the door closed? them: The door is open so you must’ve left it open. me: I haven’t been near that door during my entire visit. them: no you left the door open, stop leaving the door open.). They got upset with me for coming home “so late” from visiting with a friend (I asked ahead of time what timing they were comfortable with, they said before midnight, I was back by 11:30, they had a conniption). I need to politely but firmly tell them that I will be staying in a hotel but I’m happy to meet with them for whatever they have planned. Help?
What’s the impetus for the visit? Does “Thank you for your offer of hospitality, but I’ll be much better visiting sick Aunt Judy/going to the funeral if I have time to decompress alone” get you anywhere? Would they buy a big work project that needs alone time and wifi?
It’s a college graduation. I’ve asked for the itinerary of events several time but haven’t heard anything. Aside from the graduation (still not sure what time it is), I assume there will be a dinner. I could blame work! Though they have a pretty sweet home office so they would probably insist I should work there.
Why are you visiting these horrible people?
“I booked a room at ___ hotel. Your home is lovely and comfortable, but I’ve already booked the room and I’m looking forward to it. I’ll see you for dinner!” Do not engage any more than that.
This. Your job is not to convince them that it’s a good idea for you to stay in a hotel; your job is only to convey the information that you will in fact be staying in a hotel.
Are you my long lost sister? I am a little older than you, and started staying at a hotel when I or my husband/I visit for some of the same and other reasons. I didn’t really have a discussion with them about it, I just booked the hotel and told them we were staying there. Full stop. My mom acted all hurt, but I just ignored it and focused on other stuff we were doing when we visited.
The reasons I don’t stay there anymore are pressure to go to church, my mom waking us up at odd hours, not having a sufficiently sized bed for both my husband and I (I sleep on the couch or floor in a sleeping bag), my mom picking fights with me, my dad trying to force my husband to do random tasks like moving refrigerators, etc. etc. etc. If we aren’t just sitting around the house, those things are less likely to happen.
Another huge reason, particularly with my husband, is safety – they live in a dangerous area. I am used to it because I am from there, but he is not. Dangerous as in once when we were visiting, someone broke in at night. My instinct was to get a rifle and scare the burglar off. My husband was with me, and he still has nightmares about it. But I would never tell my parents that is the reason, although I have course tried to coax them to move (they won’t).
That’s the key – tell them you booked the hotel. Do not ask if they mind if you book a hotel or if it’s okay with them that you already did it. Treat it as a matter-of-fact thing and stick to it and if they make it awkward, let them. Not your problem.
All, i want to channel my i ner Carolina Herrera to an upcoming fundraising lunch. Where would you get the most elegant white crisp shirt in the US? Maybe up to $200 if worth the investment.
Ann Fontaine I think? Not sure they’re less than $200
Or Carolina Herrera’s own line.
Lafayette 148, if that’s your style, has some crisp poplins with elastane, which makes them fit really well.
Late response, but Hawes & Curtis. They have some really beautiful crisp white shirts. They have a few different cuts, and they tend to run long in the arms. GL!