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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Do my eyes deceive me, or is this a 100% wool, fully-lined pencil skirt? In 2023? From a mall store? I’m overwhelmed. While I don’t reach for the pencil skirts in my closet as often as I used to, having a well-made classic piece on hand is never a bad idea.
This one from Banana Republic comes in three great neutrals, but the camel is really calling my name. I’d pair it with a black turtleneck and boots this winter.
The skirt is $140 at Banana Republic and comes in sizes 0–20 in regular, tall, and petite.
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RiskedCredit
I really wanted to like this skirt. I tried in 3 different sizes. It just doesn’t fit me at all. The color and material are good, the fit is just disappointing and at $140, even with a 40% discount, the tailoring costs don’t make it worth it. I can go to brooks brothers or talbot and get something that fits.
Anonymous
Can you describe in what way it didn’t fit, and what your body type is ?
RiskedCredit
It was loose at my waist and tight over my hips and rump.
I’m 5’6” and 160-165lb. I’m curvy but nothing crazy. I think it might work for someone who is a small size.
The lining was ok but made too much ‘noise’ for me.
anon
Oh, I hate that. I’ve had that happen when I was a size 0/2, so it’s not a size thing. Women just aren’t rectangles, whatever our sizes.
Anon
The skirt is so lovely in the picture. If I looked like this in a pencil skirt, I wear them all the time and find good flat polished shoes for my tired feet.
Nesprin
I suspect the photoshop was used heavily here- aren’t most people wider at the hips than thighs?
Anon
Most? Maybe? All, no.
Anonymous
wait, are skirts coming back?
Anon
And it’s not 100% wool after all –98 wool, 2 elastane. It doesn’t even say what the lining is, but I bet it’s polyester and not acetate (which is far superior).
Anon
Acetate linings are the worst. No breathability and it makes the item un-cleanable unless you take it to a dry cleaner. And honestly, I haven’t seen those shiny, stiff acetate linings in clothes in a long time… because, I think, clothing manufacturers also realized acetate is the worst. Wool skirt with no stretch with an acetate lining is something my grandma would have worn – grudgingly.
Caitlyn
Reading the posts yesterday about filler words – I just messaged a male colleague “Please set up XYZ” and I would say thats the extent of the softening language I use, enough to make it polite but not more. I’m curious now – how much softening do you use / not use? And whats the gender split on your team?
My team is interestingly majority male, but my boss and I (mid level) are women. So I don’t feel much pressure to not be seen as too direct or whatever.
Anonymous
“Please” is not softening language. It’s basic courtesy.
Anon
It’s the wrong word IMO as it implies a choice. If I want to give you a choice, I try to be explicit. If I really want to know if a person can do a task in deadline, I ask that nicely.
Anon
No, “could you please do XYZ” is a request. “Please do XYZ is an assignment.” OP didn’t make a request, she assigned a task. Which is fine.
Anonymous
No, it doesn’t imply choice. I tell my kids to “please” do things and they know I mean business.
Anonymous
‘Please’ does not imply a choice any more than ‘thank you’ does, lol.
anon
+1
Cat
I don’t see that as softening at all. That’s just being polite. I have a male colleague who never says please and people complain about his presumptuous attitude constantly!
Saying something like “what do you think about X approach” vs. “I suggest X approach” is what I would consider intentional softening, and I use it strategically. Sometimes the Big Fat Greek Wedding approach of not worrying about the credit so long as the thing gets done is best, sometimes you want to be the person owning the idea.
Lily
Agree. If your email said “set up XYZ” with no please (or at least a “can you” and a “thanks”), I would be seriously offended. We can absolutely be aware of not making our language too obsequious, but we shouldn’t go so far in the other direction that we’re being rude. It’s like the whole discussion the other day about how some people take the concept of “self-care” or mental health way too far to the point where they’re just flaking on people and being rude.
anon
Agree. I would rather err on the side of being polite. I expect the same thing from my male colleagues, most of whom also are polite and kindly ask for things. I do not much care or worry about whether my language is too soft. Sometimes, it might be. Other times, I probably come across as too harsh or critical. I can tell you that my colleagues who don’t exercise basic kindness and respect toward others are not viewed well.
Caitlyn
Oh it was a Slack. And it context – not just “set up xyz” out of nowhere.
More “you did x, now do yz please as you obviously have to do”
Anonymous
If you worked for me we would be having a serious conversation right now about how to treat co-workers and subordinates.
Cat
I still don’t think ‘please’ is unnecessarily soft or implying optionality here. “thanks, set up XYZ next pls” is just… polite and direct.
Anon
Being easy to work with, and being perceived as easy to work with will get you a lot further career wise than adhering to some idea you read on buzzfeed. Unlike antisemitism on campus, this is something that actually is context dependent. Use language and your approach strategically.
Anon
Wot?!
NY CPA
I was given feedback at work early in my career that a client had complained I came across too brusque, so now I’ve developed a habit of amping up my filler words. I’d rather be seen as too nice than too rude. Not ideal but it is what it is.
Anon
I’m not saying your way is wrong and my way is right, but I also got feedback like that and I decided I would rather be right (and keep being polite and direct) than use more filler words and absolutely max out the success of my career. Some might say it’s shooting yourself in the foot but it doesn’t feel that way to me. I do try very hard to make sure that I do not confuse directness with rudeness though.
Anonymous
You don’t need to use filler words to be polite. You need to show genuine respect and consideration for other humans.
anan
I just had someone complain to me that someone on the team I lead was brusque as well, and, you know what? I don’t care. She isn’t rude, she also is very rarely wrong. She is very good at her job. I absolutely agree that she is brusque (aka direct and polite, sometimes humourless), but that is who she is and I’m not here to micromanage her personality or people’s hurt feelings because she won’t sugar coat things. She came to my team after 20 years in the Navy, this is her second career and we are very lucky to have her. At first I wondered if I should say something to her, but then I thought – having different personalities and viewpoints makes my team better.
Anonymous
Brusque is an opposite of polite. It means “abrupt.” Brusque would be “do xyz.” Polite is “please do xyz,” which can be said firmly.
Anon
Brusque and abrupt are not inherently rude. Polite is not the equivalent of verbose. People from all different cultures and backgrounds and personality types can still be polite (or rude). It is not hard to be very rude while using the word “please” after all!
Anan
I do agree there is definitely a cultural component. My father rarely says please, but that is because where he is from, please comes off as overly formal and insincere. But I was born and raised in the States and it took me a loooong time (and several visits to his home country in Asia) to realize that he isn’t being rude.
Anonymous
I always find it funny that when Americans visit or move to other countries they expected to conform to the local cultural norms, but we are not allowed to expect that people conform to American cultural norms when they are living and working here. Sorry, but if you work for me I am not going to excuse rudeness because “it’s cultural.” On my team all people are expected to treat others with courtesy, dignity, and respect. If you don’t know how, you can learn.
Anon
Is there any place on earth where it’s not a norm to treat people with courtesy, dignity, and respect in professional relationships?
Rudeness isn’t cultural, but interpreting difference as rudeness is chauvinist.
Anon
That’s still feedback you should give her. You can tell her or don’t care, but a lot of people do care and it could hold her back.
Mrs Luke Danes
I absolutely love this comment. You seem like a thoughtful and excellent boss.
Anon
Me too!
Anon
As someone who identifies with your team member, THANK YOU for how you lead.
Anon
Pennsylvania in the house! We are all very direct
Anonymous
For Pete’s sake, filler words and manners are not the same thing. Be polite and pleasant but also firm. Use “please” and “thank you.” You don’t need to be obsequious and weak to be polite, and on the other hand politeness is not weakness.
Anonymous
I have been repeatedly told from many sources – mostly but not exclusively women – across many different jobs that my emails come off as rude because they are too direct. I always say please/thank you, fwiw. I do not think men get this kind of feedback. I do think it holds back your career if you are seen as rude. At least during the early and mid stages of your career, I think it’s better to be seen as too nice than too rude.
Anonymous
I have one grand-boss who words things so softly that I misread them for a while and had to be told by my direct boss to interpret them differently. For example, she would send an email like “Client was asking about XYZ. Perhaps it would make sense for one of us to tell them ABC. I am happy to relay that to them if the team prefers.” And then if our team was really busy, I would be like “OK great, thank you for offering” and I had to be told that no, she really wanted one of us to do it and was just offering to be polite.
anon
Haha.ha.. laughs weakly.. I had a boss who was not a good communicator when I was a baby associate. He did that. He would also draft client updates and finish them with a list of tasks that he said in the email that we had done. As in past tense. He would copy me. His secretary had to explain to me, months later, that those lists of “we have: x,y, z, and we’ll keep you posted” was actually a list of assignments to me.
RiskedCredit
I have had the same feedback. It’s horrible because it is sexist.
I use ChatGDP a lot for writing messages, especially to my ex husband. What it pumps out is flowerly as heck but the response I get from others is improved.
Personally I prefer a 1 sentence instruction, update and less words is my preference. A lot of people clearly like the long word count email.
If I was a man, the response would be different and a regular normal message would be fine.
Yesterday's OP
I’m the OP from yesterday’s comment. Your question about softening language is interesting and worth discussing. However, I want to clarify my question was about something different, eg, saying “like” too much, and I mean to the point where it is very noticable and distracting and the speaker wants to stop. It was weird to read to replies that use of filler words can be intentional – I don’t disagree but I would have asked if my use was intentional!
Caitlyn
Regarding your actual question – In a college public speaking class we were told to just pause and not say anything at all instead of saying “like” and that has been surprisingly effective. It doesn’t ruin your flow or make it seem like you’re done if you pause for half a second, and a filler word be definition isn’t adding anything. Look at how someone like Obama speaks – there are plenty of pauses, but its not at all awkward.
Anon
I do get cut off when I pause.
Anonymous
There’s a difference between public speaking, where you obviously have the floor, and a meeting or discussion where others are waiting to jump in as soon as you take a breath.
Peloton
I’ve never understood why women put pressure on each other to be more like men instead of putting pressure on men to be more like women, especially when it comes to politeness, kindness, and courtesy.
Peloton
(In case what I mean isn’t clear: Saying “please” is not softening language. Nor is saying thanks. People who don’t say things like that are jerks. We should not be encouraging women—or anyone—to be jerks.)
January
Agree 100%.
Anon
Can you all armchair diagnose Hyacinth Bucket for me? I’m running into a person like this IRL and just want to have a strategy for dealing with her without causing a scene. If it matters, she’s no more than 10 years older than me and we have kids in the same grade and one activity together( so unavoidable for several more years). Kids are friendly but not BFFs, but so I want to not raise the temperature in the room. Biting my tongue has worked so far. But WTF is going on in her head that I am always in the wrong about something AND she feels the need to comment on it (verbally or with a reply-all)? “I don’t know the Joneses.” “Well I wouldn’t expect that you would have, dear.”
Anon
Can you try re-writing this so that people who don’t watch bad TV can give you grounded advice? I am completely confused.
Anon
Yeah, my memory of Hyacinth Bucket is she was pretentious to the point of absurdity, both in her behavior/taste and how she lorded it over everyone… so everyone thought she was ridiculous and no one respects her or takes her seriously. So based on that, the problem will solve itself because even when she is acting superior, everyone else knows she’s just an a$$hole.
Anon
Keeping up Appearances is a classic British Sitcom. Hyacinth Bucket is a lower middle class woman (with “trashy” siblings and a sweet husband who really doesn’t give AF) who thinks she is much fancier than she really is.
It’s worth a watch – even to this American who isn’t steeped in the intricacies of class in GB it’s a good show.
Anonymous
+1 I don’t understand the word salad either
Anon
It’s actually not word salad. Sorry you don’t understand it, but that’s not OP’s fault.
Cat
idk why you need to armchair diagnose Hyacinth to figure out how to deal with her. If she’s routinely this dismissive then everyone else knows she’s ridiculous, and all you need to do is ignore.
Anonymous
yep, totally confused and don’t want to google some rando character
Anon
Guess what, nobody is making you.
Anon
Guess what, if you ask for advice, it is in your best interests to be clear and precise about the issues.
helloanon
I am not familiar with that character but I would err on the side of polite, short responses. If she tells me something about the Joneses (idk like they just went skiing?) and I don’t know them or the story seems irrelevant to me, I would either say something generic like, “How nice, a ski trip right now sounds fantastic” and then change the subject or I would ask clarifying questions if the info seemed relevant and not just gossip or idle chatter. “Oh, I didn’t hear about that but remind me, who are the Joneses?”
If she really gets under your skin, when I used to deal with very difficult opposing counsel who would bicker about anything and everything and do so very rudely, I would play a little game by myself, guessing at how outrageous their reaction would be to even absolutely mundane communications on things like scheduling. Over time, it really helped me disengage from the emotions of it. I used to get very offended and hated seeing their names pop up in my inbox and this really helped me not care as much.
anon
You let it roll off your back and engage as little as possible. Short answers, with no elaboration needed. She sounds like a pill.
TRWexler
Treat her like you’re watching her in an episode of Keeping up appearances – be quietly amused and entertained by her nonsense. I would say something different if you were colleagues/neighbors (closer proximity, more likelihood she’d actually impact something in your life) but if it’s a limited amount of interaction between you two while your kids are friendly, you don’t need to know why she’s like this, you just need to have a strategy to not rise to the bait. Also, even if she’s unavoidable for a few years, the other parents of kids in the same grade/activity probably know her deal too – maybe you’ll make some friends bonding over this?
NaoNao
Do the Southern Lady sugar pill: a backhanded compliment with a sh*t eating grin, or the “well bless your heart”
If she’s otherwise likeable just delulu, you *could* try the route of “asking for help” and acting like she’s a wise sage and mentor and you’d love her 2 cents and make it a little conspiracy of two, but that’s only if you have the energy/time/patience.
The third option is “anthropologist” just detach and narrate her ridiculous behavior in your head in David Attenborough’s dulcet tones. “Ah, a siting of the rare cuckoo SAHM. Watch as she fluffs her tail feathers and tries–in this case unsuccessfully–to establish dominance.”
Anon
Got to say, I hate the “Southern lady sugar pill.” Perhaps because I am born and raised in the northeast, it seems the opposite of ladylike: you are neither being polite nor are you owning your meanness.
Anon
It’s the classic polite / not kind. The northeast is the opposite: rude AF / kind.
Anon
There is nothing “polite” about backhanded compliments or insults delivered with a smile. Miss Manners agrees with me:
https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/story/news/2007/02/18/miss-manners-good-manners-grease-the-wheels-of-society/27701162007/
https://www.theledger.com/story/lifestyle/columns/2019/03/20/miss-manners-how-to-address-badmouthed-sister-in-laws-backhanded-compliments/5666667007/#
Anon
Surface-level polite (like a bot would think it is polite, but a human would know it’s mean AF)? Pretending to be polite? Giving lip service to politeness as a civic virtue while planning to shank you when no one is looking?
Anonymous
Yeah, and this is a good way to get yourself judged as a giant b!tch. I avoid the overly smiley “bless your heart” ladies at church and school events like the plague. Half of them seem to be married to members of the local antigovernment mi1itia group and/or directly involved in book-banning campaigns.
God, I hate living in the south.
Anon
Preach. These “Southern ladies” are only not called out for being the rude, cruel people they are because their parents and grandparents ran their small towns and now they run their small towns. Some Midwesterners do it, too: they say the nastiest things with a smile (objectively both impolite and unkind) and then act like you’re the problem when you refuse to be friends with them (objectively the socially correct response and neither kind or unkind, but has the benefit avoiding further escalation).
Anon
Ah yes, the Ku Klux Karens, a/k/a A**holes with Casseroles.
They suck so much.
Anon
Are there actually people who care about being “ladylike” these days?? What a throwback.
Anon
I was responding to “Southern lady sugar pill.” I care about being classy, and smiling at someone while verbally slapping their face isn’t acceptable. Either I bite my tongue (actual politeness), or I own my reaction and will calmly state my objections. This “Southern lady sugar pill” is a b-tchy anachronism that needs to die.
Anonymous
Before I read some of the comments, I thought you were asking about a flower bucket and then completely changed topic!
If I am reading correctly you are asking how to handle a woman who constantly verbally finds fault with you? I would stop engaging, and keep my distance. The kids can be friendly without you ever really talking to the mother.
Anonymous
I think the problem here is that with Hyacinth working in the Teapot Painting department, and you working in the Teapot Moulding department, you and Hyacinth bump into each other, and Hyacinth has the opportunity to critique the moulding of the teapots, which is your purview. It might behoove you to see if you can transfer to Teapot Testing or Teapot Pouring, which would mean you and Hyacinth interact less and if anything, you would, as the teapot tester/pourer, be the one in the position to give the critique, if at all.
anon
Oh, excellent sitcom reference for the behavior. Never did sort out what the leading theory on Hyacinth’s behavior was clinically. The way to respond to her is to gray rock – essentially how Daisy and Onslow responded, completely ignoring the problematic behavior.
Anon
Or hide behind the nearest object like the neighbors did.
Seventh Sister
I am on school committees with two people like this, and it is driving me to drink. I am always, always, always, wrong about something, and they have all this super important insider knowledge because they grew up in this town and went to this school. Honestly, I think these school committees are the only place where they have any power, and they adore being able to tell a younger woman that she’s screwing something up. It’s the only place they feel superior to anyone, near as I can tell.
Anon
Yep. I was on a school committee with someone like this, and also work with several of them. Remember Eleanor Roosevelt’s saying about “no one can make you feel inferior without your consent”? That’s what I employ when dealing with these people. I’m not going to react to their ludicrous behavior because that’s what they want – a reaction. I’m also not going to let what they say bother me, and make me feel less-than. I just keep doing what I do, nod and smile and keep on keepin’ on. The less you react/engage, the less interested they become in you, and they eventually move on to another target.
Seventh Sister
Agree, and I think for some of them, the need to criticize every tiny little thing is a compulsion. They can’t stop, and they have to live their lives that way.
Peloton
That response would not even raise an eyebrow for me, but if I didn’t vibe with someone, I just would have a polite but distant relationship with them.
These sorts of things are hard to word well on the internet, so please hear kindness in the next sentence: instead of working on diagnosing her with something, perhaps using that emotional energy to work on your “water off a duck’s back” and/or boundary-setting skills will pay more dividends in this and other relationships in your life.
RiskedCredit
You don’t engage. Car pool or hire someone to take the children to the activity.
I grew up in England. Grew up surrounded by the type. Patricia Routledge is from the same area. It’s deep insecurity. However, anything these people know they will share with everyone and anyone, emphasis being on anyone.
Anon
NJ people: is there a way to clean those re-usable bags that crockery stores sell? I’m shopping more for my parents who live there and my bags are looking a bit bad after not that many trips. Do you reserve one just for meats and one for product to hopefully keep the others cleaner? They are now just seeming to be higher-cost disposable bags. (I live where I get plastic grocery bags and then use as dog poop bags, so this is new to me. Parents keep their own stash for when dad goes and I am now afraid to see the condition of them.)
Anon
GROCERY. Autocorrect is on fire today.
An.On.
Oh my god, I was about to google crockery bags! I was like, I want to see these things!
Senior Attorney
Haha same here!
Anon
Not in NJ, but in a place where I need to bring bags. I have a set like this: https://www.amazon.com/Reusable-Shopping-Eco-Friendly-Waterproof-Lightweight/dp/B07M6JPJR5/ref=asc_df_B07M6JPJR5/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309775309869&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9042815066687276434&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007818&hvtargid=pla-620791011241&psc=1&mcid=f2be304b31703e3d87808d824d536966&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyeWrBhDDARIsAGP1mWR6bEd3CXofCT8saTypvZgtRTaJezrcFXWIbDaO5UTFDcr7htE26hgaAgM8EALw_wcB and I just throw them in the wash with my other house hold laundry. I like that they are similar in size and style to the Tshirt plastic grocery bags, they hold a ton, and they fold down small for storage in my car between trips to the grocery store. I always found the ones that the stores sold that are more like shopper shaped bags did not wash well and got really dirty really fast.
Anon
For meat, I use the plastic bags that are still available in the produce aisle. You can buy better bags on Amazon and they do last longer (try the ones at the link). The cheap/free ones from the stores don’t last as well. I am an NJ person and I hate this whole bag nonsense (and I am willing to help the environment, but I agree that the “cloth” bags are just becoming the new disposables).
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0983F8MHZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
Cat
The only-pseudo-fabric ones like Target I just use a few times and then use as actual garbage bags the same way I used to use the plastic ones.
If it’s a woven material I run them through the washing machine every so often and hang dry.
Cerulean
The ones typically for sale at the grocery store made out of the stiff, crinkly material that’s kind of loud do not hold up in the washing machine, unfortunately. I would hand wash anything that gets gross. I just use Baggu bags I’ve had for over a decade and they go in the washing machine once in awhile. They wear like iron.
Cat
+1 to Baggu. We bring them along for grocery runs. They are indestructible and wash so easily.
RiskedCredit
Came to say the same. Baggu bags are where it’s at. I love them. Couple of years ago I got a bulk order and they were my ‘this might make your life better’ gift to everyone.
Cora
I kinda agree about the higher cost disposable bags. They’re reusable but only to an extent. I think its funny when I go to the gym and everyone is using them as wet/dirty clothes bags (inside their gym bags). They’re good for that – times when you don’t quite want to use a plastic bag but it doesn’t need to be anything fancy.
Anon
I’ve vacuumed them out before, from things like onion skins, and maybe wipe as-needed, but I find that they don’t really get that dirty. Is there food leaking on them?
Anon
I was so curious about these crockery stores that only exist in New Jersey, apparently.
Lydia
hahaha same! I was like ooh, fancy!
Anonymous
I was thinking she was transporting her groceries in those giant heavy plastic shopping bags from Crate & Barrel.
NYNY
Not NJ, but I’m assuming you mean the mesh-like ones allegedly made from recycled plastic? I’ve never tried to wash one, but if it’s too gross to use, what’s the harm in trying?
I’ve been using Baggu reusable bags for at least 10 years and can vouch for them being sturdy, packable, and easy to clean. I had to replace my favorite bag after it developed a hole, but my best estimate is that it was used over 1,200 times before it gave out (at least 8 years, used at least 3X/week). Maybe you can give your parents a few for the holidays?
Anon100
Another +1 for Baggu reusable bags – I used to be *obsessed* with their prints and have at least 6 of them in my house and gifted over 15 to friends and family. The huge pro is that they can be washed in the laundry on a cold cycle, and air dried. My oldest Baggu is over 10 years old and I’m still using it every week during my grocery run. I’m not a fan of their current prints, but I know there are similar type ripstop nylon bags out there from other brands that would also work.
Anon
+1 My Baggu bags have held up really well over time and have seen a lot of use.
Anonymous
+2 also a baggu lady. I love them washable, durable and fold up so small. I think I’ve had my oldest bag for 12 years now!
Anon
If you get good bags, they hold up well. I’ve been using the same $2.99 canvas totes from Trader Joe’s for close to 20 years now and they still look pretty good. I’ve added to my collection as I now buy more than I did in my single days, but I still have the originals. I wash them every once in a while, don’t buy meat, and most of the produce at TJs is wrapped, so they don’t really get dirty.
Anon
I use those zipper top Trader Joes totes that have a vinyl or plasticky lining. If my groceries leak (a rare occurrence) I clean the inside of the bag with a paper towel and clorox wipe.
Anon
Maybe I’m not understanding what type of bag this is…just like a reusable grocery bag, crinkly plastic, with fabric-type handles? I’m in the northeast and have been using these bags for 8? 10? years with no issue. You can turn them inside out and put them in the washing machine.
That said, in all that time I’ve washed the bags maybe once or twice (and not gotten sick and am still alive!) Maybe if there’s visible meat stains you can wipe with soap and water.
The thinner ones like Target gives I mainly use for tote bag uses, like when my kids bring something into school. Or, ideally, keep them in the car so you can bring them back into the stores.
No Problem
I’ve used the same two re-usable bags from the grocery store for at least the last 15 years and while I wouldn’t say they look great, they’re not overly gross or grungy. I always put my meat in the plastic bags available in the meat department, and do the same for fruits and vegetables that need it (loose greens like a head of lettuce or bunch of parsley). Nothing really spills in them besides the occasional onion peel or some moisture from something frozen or refrigerated (which evaporates quickly once empty). Maybe I’m just a dirty person but I see no need to clean them beyond occasionally wiping down the removable hard plastic base that’s in the bottom. If I really wanted to, I would probably hand wash them in the sink and hang them up to dry.
By contrast, I do regularly machine wash the cloth bag I use to transport my lunch, because stuff does spill in there and I do put in there things like utensils that I will put directly in my mouth.
NYC
I am in NJ and so frustrated that grocery delivery/pickup no longer comes in paper bags, but plastic. I have so many plastic bags that are fairly thick plastic and so much worse for the environment than the thin plastic ones or paper bags! I reuse the bags I get from delivery but only so many times and they are not machine washable.
Anonymous
I’m in NJ and I’ve literally never needed to clean them. Surely your raw meat is packaged
Anon
I think sometimes meat is not well-packaged or something pokes a hole or there is some sort of mystery wetness that is yucky. One bag I have looked like a crime scene (hello, garbage can).
Anon
Oof, if that’s a problem then maybe you should put all meat in those plastic bags things stores sometimes have. Leaking packages of raw meat seems pretty unsanitary.
anon
I use the thin produce bags at grocery stores to wrap the meat trays (some stores like Costco will have them in the meat department as well). This should help to keep your reusable bags clean. As for reusable bags, I have Envirosax and Baggu bags that are washable and they hold up really well. I’ve had them for 10+ years.
Deedee
I keep a stash of nicer ones (I love canvas ones with a square-ish bottom but I also have a great baggu) and I trash the super icky ones. All the rest my local food bank takes!! I feel so bad about all the bags but I have a 6 month old and I need Wegman’s pick up to stay sane. I was relieved that the food bank genuinely needs and uses them!
Anon
I highly recommend using canvas bags for this. They’re much sturdier than others (which I agree are totally just multi-use disposable bags). They’re also machine washable. I like the options from Trader Joe’s – I have had many for years.
That being said – my bags don’t really get dirty? I don’t really see the need to clean them, unless something spills which is rare (and usually occurs when I’m using the bags for other purposes – like bringing food to a potluck – and not while grocery shopping). Even with meats – I haven’t had issues with the juices leaking and I buy meat every week.
Anonymous
do you mean like these huge insulated freezer bags that you get at costco and sams club? (LOVE them btw). i’ve wiped down the plastic inside, but after a bit of time yeah it probably is gross. or you could put a few Baggu bags (or disposable grocery bags) in there to wrap meat in?
https://www.samsclub.com/p/mm-insulated-shopper/prod21450107?pid=PS_Google_Mot_AP_df_DISB_FY24DecemberISB_df11713252268_df&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=482472095928&wl4=aud-827499702426:pla-1039240414302&wl5=9015340&wl6=&wl7=&wl15=122256334948&wl16=&wl17=&wl18=&wl19=&wl20=Cj0KCQiAyeWrBhDDARIsAGP1mWTFCqYxSR5sGuJ6QbU_blVTBdcGoqokExN8mLBL1_0eTA1sXdn2XzAaAq-qEALw_wcB&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyeWrBhDDARIsAGP1mWTFCqYxSR5sGuJ6QbU_blVTBdcGoqokExN8mLBL1_0eTA1sXdn2XzAaAq-qEALw_wcB
OR do you mean those big crinkly plastic bags that are kind of the same shape as XL gift bags but are made of plastic and have fabric handles? i would probably just turn inside out and spray ’em down.
Anonymous
oh, or do you mean these silver bags? i always think these are super cheap, i’d upgrade to the $8 sams’ club version. walmart and amazon also have.
https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-19783/Insulated-Shippers-and-Supplies/Thermal-Bags-15-x-12-x-6-Printed?pricode=WB1434&gadtype=pla&id=S-19783&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyeWrBhDDARIsAGP1mWRZgrAj0YfzoQaxtWaWf6IoH5FUOvRIzGmlVOwIfOgBFo8dxXo0zscaAt0bEALw_wcB
Trixie
I run mine through the washing machine, let them hang to dry. If they fall apart, oh well!
Anonymous
I use machine washable bags for groceries that be bacterial breeding grounds, things like raw meat, fish or vegetables (dirt/soil). I don’t want to make a petri dish for ecoli, salmonella or similar. I wash these bags very regularly.
I use the stiffer, wipe-down grocery bags for household items and packaged items that rarely leak. When they start to get grubby or tired, I repurpose them as recycling bins.
Anon
I have a house and most rooms have furniture in them and decor. Some rooms just need a rug or end tables or how to put art in the walls due to odd spaces.
Will designers / decorators take on small finishing projects like what I have? Its like I’m trying to take a B- and make it a B+, without buying a lot (just not wasting $ on the wrong things), so nothing they’d show off in their portfolios. Or is this where Maria Killam (who I think of as primarily a color person, and her blog is generally so so fantastic) or a web service like Julie Jones would be good (or great)?
anon
Yes, some interior decorators will come in and do the finishing touches. I don’t know where you’re at, but in my college town, I’ve seen a couple of “freelance” decorators who basically do exactly what you’re describing as a side hustle. They’re regular people who have a great eye and will help find the right art and accessories.
Pep
Would this be the kind of project a freelance “stager” might take on? Like someone who usually does that kind of thing for real estate photos, etc?
Anon
Stagers are a great idea.
anon
+1 that a stager might be helpful. In my area, this would be their slow season since most homes are sold spring/summer (and almost all homes in my area are professionally staged).
Cerulean
IDK about decorators specifically, but lately I’ve found that contractors have little interest in smaller jobs since it’s a very competitive market right now and they can make so much more on bigger jobs. There are people out there who will do it, but it can be hard to actually find someone.
A.n.o.n.
yes – just be upfront that you’re looking to finish up by identifying some pieces to go with your existing furniture. I’ve done this a few times with different designers – typically they either work hourly or quote a package price based on what you need. right now doing this for rugs in a space as I don’t have an eye for these things.
some designers may turn down this type of project, but as long as you’re upfront about your needs I think you’ll find some takers.
Anonymous
i would just haunt your local online auctions/estate sale site, you’d be surprised how much stuff like that comes up for pennies. i’ve gotten a ton of paintings for $50, and i’ve seen end tables, rugs, and even faux plants come up.
Dawn
(Source – my mother has a successful interior design business) I think you want a retail furniture store with an in-house design consultant. Bring lots of pictures. Maybe something like a regional chain (in Chicago, I might send you to Walter E. Smithe) that is going to carry lots of different brands. Designers with retail stores might have a staff associate help you in store, as another option. Most folks who are actually making a full-time living as an interior designer are likely going to have a minimum $ to engage a new client and come out to their home, source specific items for them, etc. Maybe you would luck out with a recent grad with a side hustle taking their own clients if you could find that person…
anon
One week until my last day of work for the year. Ugh. Counting down the minutes, and unfortunately, there really are things I have to get done.
EB
I have hit my billable hours for the year, but unfortunately have much much work to do before my vacation at the last week. It is so hard to keep moving!!
Anon
My last day for the year and also my last day at this job is Friday. I have a huge hearing tomorrow (not a lawyer) and we’re expecting awful weather. I am counting the hours.
Anonymous
AITA? I work in a legalish role, documents need to be formatted in very specific ways. I sent a completed document to my boss for final review and for some reason she buggered up all the formatting so when it was submitted (by boss) it was rejected and thus we missed the deadline. I asked my boss why she messed with the formatting and I was told I was being insubordinate and I would be written up if I mentioned it again? I’m just perplexed this should have been a non issue if boss just submitted the document I provided but somehow it has spiralled and there’s like 5 email chains about the missed deadline and bad formatting.
Anon
I think this really depends on how the question was phrased to your boss. If it was accusatory, then probably not the right tack to take. But my guess is that your boss is embarrassed that they bungled this and is taking that out on you to some extent. IMO this is an opportunity to demonstrate that you are “solutions-oriented” and focus on repairing with boss, and asking how the two of you can better partner to avoid this happening in the future.
anon
Are you 100% sure she intentionally changed the formatting and it wasn’t something like, she made substantive edits that had unintentional formatting effects?
I’d be pretty steamed if someone gave me a doc with funky formatting that went wonky when I made substantive edits then asked me why I messed with the formatting.
OP
100% sure she intentionally messed with the formatting, completely changed the header/title/numbers etc. which all have explicit rules.
Anon
I don’t think you ATA, but I’d try to reframe this issue from “if boss had just submitted the document I provided” to “how can I make sure this doesn’t happen again.” Has anyone checked to make sure that you are both using the same word processing software? For example, if I get a document from someone still using a hardware version of Word rather than the most up to date version from the online monthly subscription, the formatting doesn’t always transfer and/or can get messed up just from opening it in the other person’s version. I’d also be very careful moving forward with questioning boss about her actions since it is clearly a issue.
Anon
Agree.
Has this happened with other documents? Are you able to get your hands on the version she submitted to see what formatting changes were made?
Anon
You don’t sound like the asshole in this scenario — your boss does. But in this case, malicious compliance feels like the right answer. Your boss said not to mention it again, so don’t. If you get asked a direct question on an email chain, don’t answer via email; use the phone or go to someone’s office, and keep it simple: “I submitted the completed form and then there was a formatting mix-up somewhere along the chain.”
Anon
Malicious compliance is a fast track to getting fired. Terrible advice. Fix the problem and figure out how to prevent it from happening again.
Anonymous
and only give her paper copies or PDFs in the future?
Anon
I have sympathy for you, but YTA and so is your boss. Clearly your boss didn’t know about the formatting rules. You should have sent the draft to her well in advance of the deadline and told her she could send any edits to you and you would make sure it is formatted correctly before submission. When you asked her later why she reformatted it, were you actually looking for an answer or were you pointing out her mistake in a petty way? It probably doesn’t rise to the level of insubordination, but it would have been better if you gently reminded her next time you send her a draft.
Anon
You said that “clearly the boss didn’t know about the formatting rules.” Is that actually the case and if it is, is that acceptable in her role? I have seen plenty of legal-adjacent managers who DGAF about the actual rules and just make everyone else clean up their messes.
Anon
So much context missing here. Did your boss blame you for the deadline being missed? Are you worried she didn’t blame you to your face but would trash talk you to others? Did she admit her error and take responsibility? Did you literally ask why she “messed with” the formatting, or were you more professional than that in explaining why the document was rejected?
NYC
You need to coordinate with boss in the future to ensure timelines permit you to reformat after she edits (aka, you send to her, she edits, you finalize formatting, it gets submitted). This needs to be the convo with boss.
OP
The rejection came with a very stern email chastising my boss for the formatting. I asked her ‘What happened to the formatting, it was correct when I sent it to you’ Boss has not taken responsibility, lots of ‘I’m unsure how this happened’ but our org has version control on documents which doesn’t lie…. Boss should have known how to format properly as she has taken a training class and I sent her the ‘formatting 101’ doc a few weeks ago.
Anon
I think you’re confused about who the boss is here.
No Face
This is helpful context. Your boss has already been chastised and you already know that she changed it, so your question comes off as rude.
anon
You may be right, but you also came across as being rude.
Peloton
I don’t think you were initially TA, but I do think you’re being one now.
Anon
“Boss has not taken responsibility” sounds like you’re expecting too much. Move on. Boss has already been chastised. I don’t know why you’re expecting more. It comes across weird here.
Anon
I’m on your side here (and everyone thinks I’m wrong for it, whatever).
Perhaps some of this is cultural, so what works in your country might not fly in America.
If it were me:
1. I would *immediately* have checked my formatting against the version that I sent.
2. I would have checked the version that was uploaded, along with the rejection email, to see what changed. As part of that, use Word to “compare documents.”
3. If she made substantive changes, that’s her prerogative. If those substantive changes messed up the formatting, that’s a corporate problem, not a problem with you or her: the workflow needs to be designed so that her substantive changes trigger a review of formatting (ie it gets sent back to you).
If this is being submitted to close to the deadline to allow for a final review, including formatting, that’s a problem.
These types of documents (I’m guessing that they are either documents filed with a court or RFPs) need to have a checklist, and part of that checklist is correct formatting. Someone needs to “own” every item on the checklist. If you “own” formatting, the final version gets sent back to you and you submit. If your boss “owns” formatting, then she owns this error – regardless of how correct your version was.
As for approach: in the debrief emails, I would have said that on my computer, my version was formatted correctly. Did something happen between my computer, the sever, her computer, and the upload? Then I would go all-in on the checklist, workflow changes, and ownership.
If you want to go that route, I’m your friend who does RFPs for a living and said that this is the best method to reduce errors.
Anon
Your boss does not owe you an apology. She knows she is wrong. You know she is wrong.
You dont need to add to the chastising and have her own up to it to you.
Move on. Figure out how to prevent it next time.
Cat
The part about being written up seems over-the-top but if you approached your boss with the tone you’re using here I can see why she’s annoyed at you. “I thought I’d formatted it correctly when I sent it to you – see it looks ok on my screen. Can I check to see how it looked when you open it on your computer so we can troubleshoot to make sure this doesn’t happen again?” gets you a super different reaction than “you messed it up.”
Anon
I hate the whole idea of “write ups” for adults. It’s infantilizing.
NaoNao
I would guess it’s the approach–like we (meaning moms/teachers/some women) ask “why did you do that?” to kids when the reality is it’s a slightly softened way to say “you shouldn’t have done that/justify yourself/that’s warning number one!” and we both know I’m irritated and the kid/person did something wrong.
If something like this comes up, remember rule #1 is the boss is never wrong. Even when they’re wrong.
I would maybe consider using the passive voice “oh! Seems like the formatting got changed somehow. Is there a way we could avoid that in the future?” But the missed deadline (and the heat from above, if any) is likely “punishment enough”.
The answer is likely “incompetence/overconfidence” like she did X action on the program and it goofed it all up and she panicked, made it worse, got flustered, and so on. Very human and understandable, but not something people want to own up to.
OP
Maybe I’m a psychological unicorn then because I always own up to mistakes, it’s just part of being human. I find lying and deflecting much more off-putting than admitting fault and commiting to doing better.
Anon
I think you might need to separate your annoyance with your boss from finding a method to avoid similar issues in the future.
Cerulean
You can be factually correct and still have made a misstep that will cause you headaches in the workplace. Humans gonna human.
Anon
I’m with you, OP. People here are ridiculous: they think being a manager is an excuse to be a total failure while making your subordinates do your job for you.
I own up to my own crap too. There is no other way to get better, and I do NOT want to give anyone the impression that I need to be baby-sat at work. Your boss clearly didn’t care about the formatting and only cared when it got rejected and caused a big problem. That’s her lesson.
Cerulean
I mean, I think the boss is absolutely being an A. But you have to understand the workplace dynamics and work within them if you want things to move along.
Anon
LOL literally nobody is saying that. This kind of attitude is not going to get you very far.
Runcible Spoon
The boss may be wrong, but the boss is always the boss. That’s just a fact of life.
Anonymous
Look girl do you want to be employed or not? People here are trying to help you stay employed and you’re being hostile to them. Literally no one cares if you think you are a psychological unicorn. Certainly not your boss.
OP
I probably should have specified I’m not American so my job isn’t at stake here. Labour law requires cause to be fired, upsetting your boss isn’t cause, effing up projects and deflecting blame is cause.
Anonymous
Yes. If you want cultural advice specific to your culture on an American website. It would obviously be helpful to share that you aren’t working here.
Winter
Lol — If you are so willing to “admit your faults and commit to doing better,’ then maybe it’s time to admit that in this situation you are TAH. There are ways to get to the bottom of why errors occurred and figure out how to avoid them in the future without being a jerk to your boss.
Anon
I am a lawyer and HATED it when partners would say, “Why did you do X?” With the same tone you’re talking about. The question was never intended to start a discussion and come to an understanding; it was to make me feel wrong or “admit” I had taken the wrong tactic. Note that these were not scenarios where I’d gone against their advice or done something that was a real problem, just slightly different from what they would have done in a context where I had discretion.
All this is to say that if the boss is a lawyer, this could be how she interprets someone asking her “why did you do that?” So the question probably came across as rude, even if it wasn’t, based on the communication styles of the people involved.
Cerulean
+1. I don’t even think this is a lawyer thing, just a human thing!
Anon
Keep a good paper trail in case boss tries to throw you under the bus.
OP
Luckily our orgs version control software has that covered for me! TBH I kind of think she was intending to blame me before she realized it’s all tracked.
Anon
Are you familiar with the phrase “cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face”? Because that is very much the vibe you give off here.
Anon
Is she new to the company or the role?
OP
She’s been here a year and has made similar mistakes before which is why she had to attend the formatting training, I sent her the formatting rules, and I pre-formatted the document myself.
Anonymous
i’m surprised no one has made it so formatting like margins/font/outline formats can be locked so that only one person can make those kinds of edits. just saying… business idea!
OP
You’re a genius, I’m going to bring this up to our IT and see if it’s possible!
Agurk
you can create a template and lock it
Not a Grinch
I could really use help in deciding whether or not to go to my office Christmas lunch tomorrow. I am swamped with two reports due on Friday (one mostly finished). The office lunch would -realistically- eat up half my day (two-hour lunch and two-hour commute, round trip). Also, I am just so effing tired. However, I don’t want to be the grinch who skips out on the holiday party.
EB
I’d probably be 50/50 and it would depend on how much work I had left to do on the reports. I would not go if I wasn’t going to be able to finish them. But otherwise, I’d probably wake up a little early, drive to the office, work there for the day, make an appearance at the lunch, and then continue working, to drive home at night. No idea if that’s possible for you, but it’s what I would do. If you’re in a leadership role, I think your employees would probably like to see you.
Anon
Go. Be the team player.
OOO
Finishing the reports are more important than attending the office holiday party. You have permission from this internet stranger to skip it. You can send a note to whoever is organizing it about why you won’t be able to attend, if you think you need to.
No Face
The lunch is important networking, so my vote is work longer to finish the reports and also attend the lunch. I always put effort into attending more social aspects of the workplace and it pays off. Don’t let your job (the reports) get in the way of your career (building and maintaining a professional network).
Winter
Co-Sign!
A.
There are trade-offs with either decision. Could you commute in at a different, less-trafficky time and bring your work to do in a coffee shop nearby? I’d personally say go and even excuse yourself early if needed (or tell them you’ll arrive late due to needing to finish one of the reports or something — if you come late and there’s a hard stop/end time, that gets you out of some of the event). But I think it’s good to show your face.
Anokha
Are you a people manager, and if so, will your reports be at the holiday lunch? If so, you should go.
Anon
Go, absolutely go.
Skipping makes you look like you’re not a team player.
Skipping to finish your work makes you look bad at time management.
Go and work in the evening if you have to finish the reports.
Skip if you’re cool with not advancing in your career or being seen as disengaged if there are layoff conversations. It won’t all come down to one event, but the cumulative effect can hurt you.
anon
Hate to say, but this. Are these things always the most fun? No. But participation does matter.
Anon
Yeah, I agree with all of this.
Not A Grinch
Thanks everyone! I took a step back from my desk and realized that I really do have to go. I’ll commute in early and work late so that everything is handed in on time.
Flats Only
One more suggestion – is there anything else on your calendar that you can skip or reschedule to open up time to work on the reports? If I was managing your schedule I would prioritize the holiday lunch and the reporting writing time by pushing routine 1:1s to next week, and having you skip any meetings that you usually join in “listen mode”.
Not A Grinch
Honestly, everything else is smooth sailing. I will likely be basking in copious amounts of free time next week. One deadline got moved forward hence the mad scramble before Friday. Thank you though, that was a thoughtful suggestion.
Anon
I’m skipping mine, but only about half the office is going so I won’t be the only one absent by any stretch of the imagination.
Repair Lo and Sons
Does anyone have a success story of getting their Lo and Sons bag fixed? The strap clip on my Rowledge backpack broke this morning. I got the bag in 2020 and it’s still a good shape otherwise. Do they offer repairs beyond their warranty, or should I just go to a local cobbler?
Anon88
I had a broken clasp on a belt bag of theirs and reached out to customer service–they sent me a whole new strap for free. I had owned the bag for 2+ years at that point, so it was definitely wear and tear, not a manufacturing error. I was really impressed.
Anonymous
I reached out to them once. They no longer made the bag in question so they just gave me a credit to buy a whole new bag. They were very nice to work with.
Anonymous
+1 it’s a mom and son shop so they’re very nice to work with!
Anon
Chiming in to say I’ve also had good luck, they replaced a whole bag when the zipper broke on mine after 2 years. Worth a try!
Moose
The strap on my crossbody broke, and they replaced it for free!
Anon
There’s a good article in the Atlantic today about how “anxiety become content” (i.e., Internet content) and how it’s affecting young people. I don’t have a gift link to share, unfortunately, but thought I’d pass along the main link in case anyone is interested.
“The way we talk about the world shapes our experience of the world. In 2022, the researchers Lucy Foulkes and Jack L. Andrews coined the term prevalence inflation to describe the way that some people, especially young people, consume so much information about anxiety disorders that they begin to process normal problems of living as signs of a decline in mental health. “If people are repeatedly told that mental health problems are common and that they might experience them … they might start to interpret any negative thoughts and feelings through this lens,” Foulkes and Andrews write. This can trigger a self-fulfilling spiral: Some individuals who become hyperaware of the prevalence of anxiety disorders may start to process low levels of anxiety as signs of their own disorder, which leads them to recoil from social activities and practice other forms of behavioral avoidance, which exacerbates their anxiety.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/12/therapy-language-anxiety-mental-health/676325/
Cerulean
I think so much of our malaise these days is expecting to always feel comfortable and happy and pathologizing discomfort that is necessary if we want to live a full life.
I also recall reading something awhile back about our language shift in saying we “have anxiety” (which is how we talk about disorders) rather than saying that we feel anxious (a passing feeling).
Anonymous
Yes x 1 million. Feeling anxious is normal. It can be a valuable signal. We need to learn to react appropriately and manage the feeling when necessary. Pathologizing normal human experience takes away people’s resiliency, delegitimizes genuine mental health disorders, and reduces access to mental health care for the people who need it most. People with genuine mental health disorders also need to be taught that not every negative emotion or thought they have is disordered and that they can and should learn to cope with normal emotions and reactions.
Anon
And what I think is interesting, is that those with diagnosed anxiety who are treating it (aka me), I’m actually pretty good at distinguishing what is my anxiety disorder and what is a normal anxious feeling. Being medicated and in therapy doesn’t mean that I don’t feel anxious from time to time – it means that I can cope with my feelings because they’re not overwhelming (and that I feel anxiety about “normal” things like a big presentation at work and I’m able to manage myself when I’m feeling anxious about “abnormal” things).
Like, if I forgot to send an email before I left work I feel a normal level of anxiety and that’s telling me I need to take care of that email first thing in the morning when I get into the office. But, I’ve been working for years to avoid my anxiety disorder outcomes of spiraling that I’ll be fired, I”ll be homeless, I’ll be unloved as a result of not sending this email and / or being unable to sleep a wink all night because I”m so physically unwell from the anxiety.
Anon
My guess is that a lot of people are expressing themselves in the language that is heard? Millennials have for a while now taken “mental health days” that are really for unrelated medical issues, because a mental health issue is more relatable and less concerning at this point (assuming it is a relatable mental health issue and not a scary mental illness diagnosis of course!).
I’m also always a little suspicious that the go, go, go extraverts are, as ever, trying to pathologize indifference to social pressures, but I can see how internalizing the idea that there’s something inherently wrong with not wanting to participate in a social activity could exacerbate negative feelings.
Anon
One thing I find interesting is how my experience going on / off anxiety meds in the last decade has changed.
When I went on them the first time (2011 or 2012), I felt like it was a lengthy process to diagnose the anxiety, discuss the medication, and then there were somewhat frequent check ins about the medication. I was only on the meds for ~8 months and then tapered off.
Then, last year I re-started meds after almost a decade off of them. I said my anxiety was starting to interfere with my life again and the conversation immediately went to do you want meds? I said I was considering going back on. Then it was like okay which meds do you want? Which – I feel is not an appropriate question. I asked for them to narrow it down for me and I was given a few options, tried one and here I am. No follow up, no discussion of how am I doing / do I want to taper off? No discussion of other ways of managing anxiety (I am in therapy, I don’t even think my PCP knows this). Nothing. They did have me fill out the anxiety / depression check list and I swear they came in, threw a passing glance at it, and then prescribed me medicine.
Anonymous
Thanks for sharing!
I do think that we may have veered too far in the direction of awareness and people self-diagnosing themselves, especially without looking for treatment.
I’m torn because I think people should have some awareness and not suffer unnecessarily but there is definitely a culture of victimhood and this pervasive content intensifies it.
Anonymous
And there are a lot of people that don’t seem to want to do the work. I have a lifelong anxiety disorder. I have made great strides in how I respond to the symptoms, which include panic attacks, and I don’t see that from a lot of younger people nowadays.it’s just acceptance.
Anon
Oh, this. 100%. It’s frustrating. I have anxiety and while I think meds are great and very helpful, I didn’t want to stay on them forever. So I did some CBT and other therapy and worked on my response to my feelings of anxiety, not just “avoiding triggers,” which is impossible if you want to live even a semi-normal life. One thing I see in some of the younger people I work with is that they expect the entire world to change so their anxiety levels will lessen – they don’t seem to want to work, at all, on themselves, and their own management of their feelings and reactions. They don’t seem to realize that they are the only people they can control. And that if you avoid everything in life that makes you anxious, you won’t end up doing very much.
Anon
As a millennial with anxiety and depression: I am glad that mental health issues are destigmatized enough that people feel comfortable getting the help they need. I held off on therapy and medication for years because mental health was not discussed, having issues felt like a moral failing, and I didn’t want to need help. Obviously, it would have been way better for my mental and physical health to have gotten the help I needed when I needed it and not waiting so long.
That being said – I feel like it is now used as a crutch for many young people. For whatever reason, certain mental health issues and / or neurodivergence diagnoses have become trendy – which when you think about it, that is weird. I cannot think of any physical health issues that are trendy (aside from maybe it being cool to break an arm and have a cast in 3rd grade).
This was discussed a bit back on the Gen Z thread last week: yes it’s good to take care of your health (physical and mental). No it’s not cool to avoid adulting or responsibilities because of your health. No it’s not cool to flake out because of your health. Yes, we all have to do things we either don’t like doing or are uncomfortable doing at times because that’s just what life is. Yes, you have to do these things even with anxiety, ADHD, depression, etc.
Anon
But for what? I think a problem for Gen Z is that a lot of the rewards of just doing things anyway don’t seem tangible or attainable.
anon
For a moderately comfortable existence. Life gets really hard later on if you don’t make sacrifices.
Anonymous
I saw a great TikTok video of a comedian addressing this. He role played a young person explaining that they have anxiety and their response to “what are you doing to address it” was “I’m telling you, so you can work around it.” This has been my lived experience with younger people in my life.
Peloton
Yes. There is a lot of “I expect you to do the emotional labor I don’t want to do myself” main character energy. I don’t think it’s purely generational; I think the more people have their social community affiliated with the internet, the more they develop this trait. (I know plenty of lonely millennials who also display this attitude!)
Anonymous
This seems to validate social constructionism.
Anon
Somebody sent me the old Bob Newhart therapist skit from MadTV recently. I feel like some tide must have turned that I laughed at it this time around (in a self deprecating mode re. some of my own issues, to be clear).
Anne-on
Any suggestions of ways to reframe/manage hard seasons during a ‘magical’ time of year? It’s a bunch of medium/small stuff plus a few big things all at once and I am just struggling right now (bout of covid, a parent needs surgery, plumbing emergency, our older dog is sick, just got told no raise/bonus this year at work and that layoffs are likely in 2024, potentially scary health issue, etc.). It’s all manageable in that we have savings/good insurance/supportive family/etc. but I am just feeling flattened at the moment.
Anon
You’re allowed to feel flattened. Not every Christmas is magical. I had the worst year of my entire life and I’m not going to toxic positivity myself through the holidays. It’s not what I want to do and I dgaf about what other people want from me.
Anon
It’s been a crazy year but I find that going through the motions for the holidays helps a lot. We got the Christmas tree up and it took 2.5 hours total (including the time to purchase it) and I’m really glad we didn’t give in to the grumps and not do it. Do your traditions even if you don’t 100% feel like it and it will help. You don’t have to love every second but it will truly make you feel better overall.
Anon
+1 to this. I love seeing sparkle in the house in the evenings. I also clean the house and organize things when I’m down – makes me feel like something is under control.
Anon
Agree. Also if you have kids, they love it and think it’s the best thing ever. It isn’t hypocritical to come through for them even if you personally aren’t feeling it.
NaoNao
A couple things:
Every year I write a little personalized short story for my mom specifically about Christmas. I start thinking about it in November usually. Finding a new angle of “Christmas magic” has been a real life-saver during times where I felt broke, unhappy, flat, and miserable. This year it’s wild ponies of Chincoteague with magical Christmas bells :) Perhaps something similar in the creative realm might lift your spirits–like a poem, a song, a story, a little watercolor–basically finding a “new angle” of magic.
Focus on others–finding a gift in budget, writing out cards, getting treats for my pets, things like that.
The book (now out of print but many cheap copies available) “Turning off the Christmas Machine” (or something like that) was a huge revelation to me and very helpful in sitting down with my husband and picking the parts of Xmas that really mattered to us and leaving the rest behind.
But this year has been TOUGH. Something feels missing. Off. It’s hard and feels like work getting into “the spirit”. Our Christmas “party” at work was in a conference room, mid-day, in office of course, with a cameras-on Zoom all hands in the middle of it. So fun :(
I honestly feel a little better knowing I’m not the only one struggling.
anon
Not every holiday season is magical. It’s just not. And I think we do ourselves a disservice when we chug along pretending all is well. You don’t have to force it, unless you really really want to. Do whatever brings you peace and joy, even if it’s less than you would’ve done in the past.
Anonymous
I manage hard seasons by not “reframing” or forcing myself to feel something I’m not feeling, no matter what time of the year it is.
No Problem
I agree with this. It’s okay not to try to make things magical, or to do the bare minimum of magical to satisfy young children if you have them. It’s okay to lean into some self-preservation feelings and just triage. Lean into the gratitude you expressed here (having the savings/insurance/supportive family to deal with it all) and let that be magic enough. Think of it this way: if you can get through this tough season of human and animal illness, home emergencies, parent emergencies, and job uncertainties, won’t next year’s holidays feel all the more wonderful if you can look back on all that you overcame in the last year?
Anon
I focus on little things that are fun versus big holiday obligations. Like I always meet up with a friend for a hot chocolate walk through the neighborhood to look at holiday lights. I meet my husband for drinks after work in a pretty, decorated bar and sneak out a little early for this. I decorate around the house as the mood hits, but give myself permission to skip anything that sounds hard.
Anonymous
Poll: are you working next week? A colleague asked me to “help” with a project this week. I agreed, but it turns out she actually just wants to dump the entire four month project in my lap. My kids are out of school next week and I already took PTO. She expects me to work on this project though. WWYD?
Anne-on
Working until Friday, when we have a half day and I have a surprising amount of substantive work going on!
With regards to your colleague I’d send a note back saying something along the lines of ‘In reviewing the project I’m able to assist with X/Y/Z ahead of my own planned PTO and ongoing projects, but I cannot take on A/B/C.’ If she pushes back loop in your own manager to alert them and to help you set boundaries – I wouldn’t want my direct report pulled into someone else’s work at the expense of their own.
Anon
I’d offer only what you legitimately have available, and since it’s Wednesday and you’re off next week, it’s probably not much time. I wouldn’t change my plans for that absent more context.
Anon
Nope, you tell her you already booked the time off.
anon
Oh, heck no. You’ve booked time off next week and she will need to adjust accordingly. Hold the line.
Anon
Monday is my first day at a new job, so I will be working all week long! And, every day but Christmas Day the next week. I hope that there is a 59 minute rule next Friday and the Friday after, but I won’t know til day of.
Anon
What is a 59 minute rule? I’ve never heard of that.
Anonymous
Hold firm to your boundaries. “No, I can’t do that.” Repeat as needed.
Caitlyn
Today is my last day for the year. I had a couple PTO days that would expire so I just took them and the whole company closes christmas to new years
Anon
I’m working but you should not be since you took the time off.
NY CPA
+1
NYCer
+2. I don’t think it matters whether anyone else on this board is working or not, you took the time off! Tell her you are out next week.
FWIW, my kids have school off from 12/22 through 1/8, so next week is normal week for us.
Anon
My kids have the same school calendar.
Anon
+3!
Anon
What would I do? I would let her know that I can take a specific piece of it, and will deliver by Friday at COB. If she didn’t manage her time properly, that’s on her.
anon
I am working next week but took PTO between Christmas and New Years. In your position, I would decline to work on the project because you already have PTO approved. The exception is if you’re in the type of job where you get paid a lot in part to be available at all times (Big Law associate), and this work is coming from someone senior to you.
Trixie
wait–what? This person is outrageous. give the project back to her, and let her know you can’t do it next week, but will work on it this week until Friday.
Anon
I’m working until next Friday. We have a year-end shutdown, but it’s from 12/23 to 1/2 and I try to avoid using additional PTO this time of year. But if you took PTO, say no to this silly request!
Anon
Yes :( all week. I would take your PTO as scheduled and not help. “Sorry colleague, I already have planned PTO approved and will be out next week. I won’t be online to help you.”
Anon
I would politely decline and if you need a reason, say you’re unavailable. Which is true.
Anon
I got small wrapped gifts for my coworkers and meant to give it to them today, the last day we are working in the office for the year, (we are hybrid) but I am home sick with a cold. I have to go in to the office tomorrow morning to get my laptop because we are WFH for the rest of the year. Coworkers will be at the office later in the day tomorrow for a holiday party (I am not going to the party because it’s for a team that I am not a part of). Should I leave the gifts on their desks tomorrow? How would you feel about receiving a gift from someone who was recently sick? Alternatively I could go to the office next week and leave it on their desks, but then they won’t receive them until we are back in the office on the 2nd week of January.
Anokha
Unless it is a food item that was hand-made, I would not bat an eyelash as getting a small holiday gift from someone who was recently sick.
Anon
Same.
Senior Attorney
+1
Anonymous
Drop them off tomorrow.
Anon
Drop them off tomorrow, unless it’s a food item. It’s possible some of your coworkers aren’t going to the party or won’t stop by their desk, and I wouldn’t want to risk food sitting out for two weeks even if it’s something that won’t go bad. There is just a risk that a rodent or something would get into it, which would be one way to get me to hate my coworker
Cat
Another vote for drop them off now, it’s fine.
anon
I’m looking for some decent quality V-neck sweaters that are a winter weight (for work). It does not need to be cashmere or wool. Even cotton would be OK because I plan to layer a shirt underneath. Has anyone found any good ones recently?
Chl
I like my Lands End ones
Anon
I just bought Talbots cashmere and Quince cashmeres v-necks. Talbots is definitely better, but Quince isn’t bad, especially with a light layer underneath. Talbots was far better for me for work because I’m a petite in sizing.
Definitely prefer v necks as well. Crew necks emphasize my large bust and broad shoulders.
Anon
https://www.thecut.com/article/gentle-parenting-and-the-accidentally-permissive-parent.html
I feel like this encapsulates everything I’ve observed about parenting in the real world and even comments from this group about their children’s behavior.
Anonymous
I was with this until the end, when it said I should just look at the poor parent whose kid is kicking my chair without comment or consequence and smile with pity.
Anon
Yup. Also, this is a me thing, but I have a strong aversion to the flowery, over-the-top, “I see you feel sad now. It’s ok to feel sad. Do you want to hug your teddy” style of communication. We went to a daycare open house recently (at a Montessori school) and one of the prospective parents asked about discipline policies and the director did this huge dramatic head tilt and pretended she didn’t know what the word discipline meant (she literally said “I’m struggling to figure out what you mean”). It was absurd.
Anonymous
That’s why we didn’t choose Montessori.
Anon
That’s why we didn’t choose Montessori.
Anonymous
I am the parent of a teenager. This is spot-on. My generation (late Gen X/ elder millennial) has thrown authoritative parenting on the same bonfire as authoritarian parenting and embraced permissive parenting. We are creating a generation of entitled, self-centered weaklings who will not be equipped to run the planet when we retire.
Did you mean to post this to the moms’ site?
Anon
My daughter is getting a masters in education. She recently told me that we are authoritative parents, which she said was a good thing. I felt relieved we had stumbled into doing it “right” – I always try to keep in mind that none of us actually know Wtf we are doing! Most of us try to do our best.
Anon
I feel sorry for your kid. And anyone under 40 that you manage. Your attitude sucks. And, BTW, is the exact same thing the Greatest Generation said about us GenXers, back in the day. So your wannabe edginess isn’t even original. You’re just repeating stuff that was said about you.
Anonymous
Nah, our Boomer parents were too busy worrying about their own wants to care about us GenX kids. As they still are.
Cerulean
Your comment feels more like “wannabe edginess” than the one you’re replying to.
Being an authoritarian jerk is terrible parenting. But not having any firm expectations or boundaries also hurts kids in the long run. Boundaries give kids the stability they need (and want, even if they don’t realize it at the time). Love and limits as somebody said below.
Anon
I don’t think you understand the difference between authoritarian and authoritative.
Anon
Oh man, I see my best friend so much in this. She has said herself that she’s really struggling with holding boundaries and is fearful of being “harsh” but is getting exhausted by the poor results and battles over bedtime, meals, and everything else. I think the “gentle parenting” people scared everyone into thinking that other approaches aren’t “gentle” or “respectful.”
Anonymous
That’s a really good article. Kids need love and limits. Loving care and firm boundaries. I find it wild when people are posting about screen time limits and hurting siblings. Like you are the parent, you get to decide.
Anon
So, here’s my theory:
We have some folks on this board who are not parents, don’t work (or don’t have very high-level jobs), aren’t rich, and can basically sit here all day posting things that represent the attitudes they WOULD have IF they actually had kids, or had a high-level job. These people can’t really be working and parenting – they’re on here way, way too much. And their attitudes are just a little too strident/off kilter to be real ideas that real people dealing with real problems in the real world think/believe. I think we have some retired women here who never got to where they wanted to be in life, and I think we have some people who can’t or don’t work (for whatever reason) who love to imagine what it would be like if they had become the person they wanted to be, and had the career they wanted to have.
I think there are people who use this space as a way to do some kind of internet cosplaying (without the costumes) of the life they would have and how they would act IF they were actually a high-powered, go-getting, working mom who’s trying to balance family life with a big job at the top of the corporate ladder. Like, this space is their RPG/LARP and here they get to pretend they have a life they don’t actually have. Discuss.
Anonymous
Given how many people think you need to bow down and submit to your supervisors, yeah I think there are a lot of LARPers who wish they were executives and had dominion over little wage sl*ves.
Anonymous
Oh good grief. And you wonder why your generation isn’t advancing quickly at work? Because many of you are feral.
Anon
It’s “feral” to know your boss attended a training on a topic, send her a how-to document, send her correct work product, and refuse to be the fall guy when she screws it up? Today I learned a new definition of “feral.”
Anon
+1
Anonymous
If you are talking about the moms’ site, I don’t think it’s that kind of tr011. I think it’s a lot of big firm lawyers who have little pockets of downtime while they are putting in their face time, and also are of the social class that buys into “gentle parenting” and overanalyzes every little parenting decision and thinks they can control everything.
Anon
I think this is an amusing fantasy you spent quite some time on but I don’t think there’s any evidence for it. I think a lot of people disagree about different cultural trends and use this as a space to post. It takes me 30 seconds or less to type a comment – it can’t be that much more for others. Maybe 5 minutes to post a very serious issue.
Anon
agreed.
Anonymous
This. I popped in here, skim the threads and post at least once/twice a day. I also have a long elevator ride up to my office and down to the cafeteria at lunchtime. Throw in a coffee break here or there and I could easily post/comment 3-4 times a day. Chances are I’m walking or waiting at the same time. It takes like 2 mins to post max.
No Problem
I am not a parent, but I think it is a fair observation that parenting is hard, and there is no one approach that works for every kid. Gentle parenting is also hard, especially for those of us raised by the “screaming and spanking” parents referred to in the article. And I often say to my friends that our parents probably thought they were doing better than the way their parents raised them, which for many was more akin to “screaming and beating” or perhaps even worse. I suspect that the Gen Alpha (is that what they’re called?) kids being raised with gentle parenting (with varying degrees of success) will pull back a bit towards center and recognize that the lack of boundaries or firmness from some parents was also problematic. But probably only after quite a bit of therapy, just as me and my Millennial peers reached similar conclusions about our parents through therapy.
Anon
I hate the modern ‘gentle parenting’ movement. I’ve been told by friends that I’m inflicting trauma on my kid because we used brief timeouts when she was a toddler (for egregious behavior like hitting, not for being sassy) and we use consequences like taking away screen time. I jokingly in earnest describe myself as a 1980s gentle parent – we don’t spank, we try (and mostly succeed) to avoid yelling, we treat our kid with respect, we apologize when we get something wrong, but we absolutely use consequences even if they’re not “natural.” I don’t see how you can raise a strong-willed kid to be a decent person without occasionally taking away things they care about.
Anonymous
I was a kid of the 1980s and never knew of any parents who spanked except the ones who were genuinely abusive and did other bad stuff too.
Anon
It was super common in my Midwest hometown in the 1990s. My parents did not but they were in the minority.
No Problem
I was also a child of the 80s/90s and me and many of my friends were spanked, as were my cousins. Just because you didn’t see it happen doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Most parents did not spank their children in public. I was definitely only spanked at home. Let’s also be clear: I wasn’t spanked past the age of maybe 5 or 6, and I think there was a similar age cutoff for many of my peers.
Anon
I was born in 1980 and spanked for infractions large and small. Boston suburbs, FWIW.
I don’t “gentle parent” my son; there are a few things are non-negotiable (no hitting, bedtime means play quietly in bed, no throwing, when it’s time to leave for school we leave, etc.), and a lot of things that just aren’t a fight. He’s an easy kid and an easy age (4), so obviously things may change.
Anon
Child of the 90s in the mi-Atlantic suburbs.
I honestly can’t remember if my parents ever made good on the threat of a spanking, but it was common enough among my friends and cousins that the threat of one was legitimate and enough to make us shape up. It was usually a count to three and if I get to three you’re getting a spanking and we all knew enough that we didn’t want to get spanked and thus never let them get to three. Much like No Problem, this was only a threat while we were young.
That being said – I also can’t remember being in time out or losing a privilege. I remember losing a toy a few times (any toys left out and not cleaned up were confiscated for a few days) and being yelled at / lectured / spoken to sharply but that’s it.
My parents are squarely authoratative – to this day whenever we see my cousin’s kids (who are being raised by permissive parents) my parents comment later on that kids need and want clear boundaries, consequences, schedules and routines.
Anonymous
70s/80s kid raised in Mid-Atlantic suburbs by a NYer and I was spanked well into age 9 and probably later. I was slapped on the face in my early teens, fought back with words, and won that battle forever more. Corporal punishment in schools was an active debate and paddles for the purpose were prominently displayed in administrators’ offices, with a very real threat they might be used.
Anon
I babysat for years. I had some parents who were amazed that I could get their kids to go to bed without a fight, fall asleep in minutes, who bussed their dishes from the dinner table, picked up their toys, and yet loved having me over. “When is Jane coming over to play again?” Telling kids they have jobs isn’t cruel or abusive.
Anon
I do wonder what will happen when this generation grows up and enters jobs like the military…
Anonymous
They won’t.
Anon
I’m just gonna put a tidbit here from my own masters education that has stuck with me for a long time and has informed my parenting.
Boundaries and rules are important for a reason. Leaving everything up to your kids is not being kind to them. It sends a message that no one is in charge, and even toddlers are aware enough to realize they’re not old enough to be in charge. It’s scary to them. Rules and firm parenting are comforting, even if they act like they don’t like it in the moment, sort of knowing someone who is a grown up has the steering wheel and they don’t have to drive the whole thing themselves.
Yes, your child will act very much like what they want is to do whatever they want at any given time, but they need you as their parent to say no. We are not doing that and it’s not negotiable. That’s one of the hard parts of parenting and it takes more effort than just giving in, but the long term consequences are a child who feels safe and protected.
Anon
Thanks for this; I don’t have kids (if that confession pleases the person who thinks some of us are fraudulently pretending to?), but this makes a lot of sense for me in terms of my family of origin and my parents’ families.
Carry ons
What was the carry on bag that took over instagram a few years ago? It had a shoe compartment on the bottom, and unfolded to a garment bag on the sides.
It looked a little like the away bag but that wasn’t exactly it.
Anonymous
I need this bag!
Anonymous
Lo and Sons
Laura
The Halfday Duffel bag?
Pompom
Beis?
Kate
This post feels like an opportunity to talk about the sincerely crap quality of clothes available at the moment in light of the rise of fast fashion. I wish the blog would highlight that issue and the related (massive) environmental issues.