ByElizabeth Hours Updated
Comments 293 Comments

Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Airflow Ruffle Short-Sleeve Top

A woman wearing a black top and floral pants

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

Every year, I use the week between Christmas and New Year’s for a big closet cleanout, and when I’m done, I always feel like I need a few more tops to round out my new “streamlined” wardrobe. (It’s a vicious cycle, I know.)

As I was browsing Nordstrom Rack, this top from T Tahari jumped out at me.

The silky-smooth fabric, ruffled neck, and wide variety of colors would make it a great option for anyone looking to spruce up their 2024 outfits.

The top is $19–$22 at Nordstrom Rack and comes in sizes XS–3X. It also comes in many other colorways.

Sales of note for 12.5

293 Comments

  1. I’d love to hear the hive’s take on a potential retaliation complaint as I have no experience in this field whatsoever. I have experienced some verbal (but very stressful) retaliation from my boss in a couple of situations where I’ve expressed a different opinion from her, in a team discussion / exchange of ideas type of situations. I shared some examples with HR – the whole team was asked to give feedback on team culture as my boss will be getting coaching. Now, it turns out that since I used the word retaliation and the company has “zero retaliation policy”, HR is pushing me file a formal complaint. I had documented the situations when they happened but don’t have anything specific on paper, so it’s going to be a “she said – she said” situation. So far my approach has been to drag my feet saying I’ll think about it. What are some specific steps I could take to decide whether on not to file? I’m in tech, so there’s always the prospect of layoffs. I am looking for a new job but it will take some time.

    1. I’m confused about what “verbal retaliation” means here. Is your boss just disagreeing with your opinions? That does not seem like a basis to go to HR or file a complaint.

    2. Can you elaborate on what you mean by verbal retaliation? In the employment law sense, retaliation is an action– you disagreed, so you won’t get this promotion/raise/assignment or you’ll be reassigned/laid off/given a bad project.

      A threatening or demeaning statement is bad, too, but words aren’t quite the same as actions in most employment policies.

    4. Yes, fair questions. The verbal part was a ton of criticism around everything I was doing at the time (and not justified, because I’m good at what I do), and statements such as “something is off with you”. None of it has trickled into performance reviews as of now. And, yes, I suspected I would need a specific action before I can file anything. Thank you for the perspective!

      1. Retaliation doesn’t seem like the right claim, but if it persists, I do think this could fall under the bullying category. It’s certainly not appropriate.

    5. IANA (HR) L, but the legal definition of retaliation in the HR sense is different from “my boss shoots me down at meetings and I don’t like it” so that is probably where you’re running into headaches.

      1. IANAL or an HR person but I would be concerned about your credibility if you told HR your boss retaliates against you and in fact no negative action has been taken against you at all. It seems like this could cause issues with your credibility in future; I would also ask yourself honestly if your boss/manager could have possibilty documented any of these same incidents as insubordination/conduct, just to be prepared in case.

        1. +1 this is not retaliation in either the English or legal sense and calling it such makes you lose all credibility.

        2. On the last point – highly doubtful for a person who seems unable to document to do’s and follow ups from day to day meetings. But even so – it is her right and yes, I’m fully aware of that scenario.

    6. Not my expertise but Retaliation is typically considered in response to a protected action or status – like you reported being discriminated against and then your boss took away a job opportunity. This sounds more like a bad boss or bullying. Is your HR confused about what you mean or what happened maybe?

    7. As someone once told me in a similar situation, “You have a bad boss.” A couple years ago, I read something about offices where “unquestioning obedience” is prized over “independent thought.” I wish I had noted where because I keep wanting to go back and read it. Knowing your boss is authoritarian is helpful only to the extent that you can decide how to act with that knowledge (don’t take it personally, find a new job where you can develop and bloom, decide to stay for Reasons, whatever).

    8. Is the complaint about the underlying behaviour or the retaliation? IIRC, a manager can engage in prohibited retaliation even if the underlying complaint is not legally actionable (eg member of a protected class, etc). Also, your company is allowed to have anti-retaliation and anti-bullying policies that are more protective than required by law.

      My concern is the one where she said that “something is off with you.” She’s not a psychologist or psychiatrist (I assume); you aren’t her patient; you didn’t consent to diagnosis; and that isn’t how diagnoses are made. It is, however, how a person can exploit a stigma around mental illness and discredit their victim.

      Which brings me to my final question: which one of you are they trying to get rid of? If they are protecting her, they will have verbal conversations with you and HR will write down a very slanted summary of those conversations, designed to make them look good if you sue. Of the results of the team discussions came back and they want to get rid of her, they want you to file a formal complaint so they can PIP her and kick her out.

      1. My guess is they are protecting the company in case I decide to pursue anything formally. I have no such intention and focusing all my energy to get out of this role.

        1. Complaining to HR is the start of pursuing something formally so you kind of already did. The problem is your word choice of retaliation, which has a Big Legal Meaning that you might not have known.

          1. Indeed, I did not know and this discussion has been super helpful, big thanks to everybody who chimed in!

    9. That’s rough. This doesn’t sound severe enough to be taken seriously. HR isn’t really your friend at the end of the day, and it sounds like you’ve already given feedback for the coaching. Unless HR is already trying to manager her out. Is there any mentor you could chat with at your company, who knows the lay of the land better?

  2. What’s your prediction for 2024 trends? What will you see real people wear more this year than 2023? What will you be looking for as an update? Work or casual – whatever you like!

    1. I would love to see fewer ex cathedra pronouncements like “no one’s wearing black tights” or “we’re all wearing pants now, not skirts.” So as a trend, this would be the realization there is room for a multitude, that people dress for comfort and body type.

      2. I have actually noticed this is already a “trend”.
        While there will be a subgroup of folks that always follow the bloggers/mags etc.. and like to say what is right/wrong, I have noticed in the past decade a much broader acceptance of clothing based on body shapes/coloring/styles. Just the incredible variety of pants alone that people wear is an indication.

        What has surprised me is the rise in botox, shaving more body hair, still so much dying of grey hair in women and even some of these things rising in men.

        1. As an elder millennial who went to high school in the 90s, when supermodels all looked like prepubescent boys…I’m so glad to see the variety of cuts in pants! Very few women and girls could fit into that very slim style of jeans!

      3. Here’s hoping. I would love for dressing for yourself to be the prevailing trend in 2024. I am terrible at predicting trends and can drag my feet on adopting new ones.

        1. I’m also slow to afopt.trends, if I adopt them at all. I find a lot of trends just don’t work for my body shape or proportions, or I just find them ugly…

      4. I agree, but when I pull an older outfit from the shelf and wonder why it doesn’t feel “current” it’s sometimes helpful to be mindful of the broader trends.

        Personally I’m embracing wider-legged pants, hemmed to accommodate flats (barely above the ground so I can also do low heels).

        1. Me too. I come here to see what people are wearing so I can be reasonably current. Say I’m packing for a business trip and I see many people agreeing that skirts aren’t the thing right now, it helps me to know that and pack pants instead. Isn’t that the purpose of this place? I just want to protect a professional image, not that of someone who is hopelessly stuck in the aughts or whatever.

          So my vote is to keep it coming. That’s why I visit this place. I don’t know why anyone would get upset about finding out that “we” aren’t wearing skirts right now. This is not some sort of inclusivity thing. This is about clothing and what’s appropriate and current for a professional setting. YES I want to hear this!

          1. I totally agree! The fact is that trends and fashions change, which is one thing I think is fun. I’m not sure anyone who is wearing non-current clothes is being arrested, so I take any comments like that in the spirit of why they’re offered— This thing isn’t the current trend.

          2. Same! I do not keep track of fashion at all, but I like to look put together and nice. I will never be trendy and do not aim to be. But I also don’t want to look like I haven’t purchased new clothing in 20 years. So the high-level information like pants instead of skirts that people who do follow fashion are willing to share is really great for me.

      7. I agree.

        The wording is somehow very triggering for me. It’s just so mean girls – like, do we all still wear pink on Wednesdays? You can say that pants look more current than dresses without saying that “we all” are wearing pants now.

        1. That’s what I think of when I hear it too! It’s so easy to say “I’m seeing more…” or “in my area women are wearing…” instead of declaring something as universal doctrine.

    2. more cherry red, sneakers will be slimmer (like adidas sambas rather than dad sneaks), pants stay soft-waisted; skinny jeans continue their slow slide into oblivion. I think neutrals are around for a bit longer, although I’m personally super bored with them. I think skirts and dresses will continue to be less popular/trendy for workwear, although obviously people still wear them blah blah. generally, silhouettes are looser and wearing everything tight or fitted is a dated look that makes you look like an aging millennial (you do you! style is personal! but just… it’s not a 2024 trend).

      The instagram account “data but make it fashion” is great if you’re interested in a data-driven take on trends!

      2. I would rather look like an aging millennial than a child playing dress-up, lol, which is what a lot of those looser cuts do for my body shape…

      3. It’s going to be year of the Dragon so that always brings in a red mini trend. I love it!

    3. I think cherry red is due for a comeback! For years it looked so dated and passé, but I just saw a bright red blazer at Ann Taylor and it looked fresh and fun. I love red so was excited to see this.

    4. Cords! They seem to be everywhere and they actually look flattering on me unlike all the wide leg pants that make my petite self look like a clown in a circus, so cords it is. And correspondingly, turtlenecks. I’m seeing a lot of ’70s coloring to go with these items, so that is where I’m for the next 4 months or so.

      Linen was everywhere last summer, so I expect that to continue too. Which sucks, because linen is finicky.

    5. More shoes that are sort of a hybrid between dressier shoes and sneakers. I expect to see lots. I think the era of sneakers (ushered in by WFH and much more casual offices) has made people less willing to wear shoes they can’t walk miles in.

      1. (I’m waiting for the person to chime in who says she can run a marathon in her stilettos. But that doesn’t mean stilettos are trending.)

    6. Like the comments above, I saw a comment recently that basically said you can love fashion but still dress to suit your lifestyle. As someone who is probably permanent WFH, I like following a lot of blogs but in reality will probably never wear a majority of the things because I’m in my house. So maybe the height of fashion for some really is a quarter zip sweater and a pair of leggings. Call the trend whatever you want, sustainable fashion or whatever, but utilitarian fashion is also kind of important too.

      1. Today, I am wearing a quarter zip sweater with wide leg jeans and Adidas sambas. I choose to believe the jeans and sneakers are current enough to overcome the quarter zip, haha. In my opinion, it all works and I look cute and feel comfortable.

  3. Looks like we’re going to be snowed in this weekend. Blech. Hoping that I can get some reading done, maybe watch a movie, bake cookies with my kids. But honestly, we have had a LOT of time at home lately, so this is less of a treat than it sounds like.

    1. I know that feeling all too well. The only fix is getting outside all day in the snow. Dress warmly!

    2. Ugh. It’s so cold here even my riding lessons are cancelled. I probably wouldn’t have went anyway in case something happened on the highway, but yes: Winter Sucks.

    3. it’s a good excuse to hibernate, especially while virus cases are RAGING.

      I’ve got some friends with recent long covid issues and I’m really scared to get it again. It feels inevitable despite my still masking.

      1. I’m on day 14 of whatever I have. Tested negative for COVID every other day (figured I might as well use up expiring free tests). No idea if I’m at the secondary bacterial sinus infection stage or what, but it’s a lot more fun to hole up without an infection than with one, that is for sure.

      2. My boss has long covid from a recent bout, which wasn’t his first time. It’s scary!

  4. Yesterday I started my first “normal” period after being on the pill for over 15 years. I had to go off of it last month due to a migraine with aura. So far it’s every terrible thing I remember: completely unpredictable (came 24 days after my last one) and really bad cramps. Remains to be seen how heavy it will be, or how long it will last, but ugh. Anyone else experience a really bad first period after going off the pill, but then more tolerable ones thereafter? Please tell me it’s just this first one that’s going to be bad and they get better (I know that’s unlikely, but some anecdata would be comforting right now).

    1. My first few were rough and then they became both tolerable and regular. I went off the pill around age 35, after being on that or other hormonal bc for nearly 20 years.

    2. Sometimes it does take a few cycles to “normalize” again! I wouldn’t put stock in the first 1-2 periods. I was also surprised at how bad my periods are when I went off the pill, although I ended up going back on a lower estrogen one.

    3. Yes, the first one can be hard (just like the first postpartum one). It’s a big adjustment for your body. If you’re open to it, I recommend reading “Taking Charge of Your Fertility”. It’s very interesting and gives a lot of information about your cycle. If you can pinpoint ovulation (either using mucus signs, or LH strips when you start noticing other physical symptoms), you will also be able to predict when your period will arrive — the time from period to ovulation can vary each cycle, but the time from ovulation to the start of the next period is very consistent, usually within a day of the last cycle. (Of course, the first few cycles off the pill are transitional, as your body regulates, and can be unpredictable.)

      I was on the pill for many years before reading that book. It is fascinating to me how much information our cycle can tell us, and how you can get to know the rhythms of your body with simple tracking. It’s a huge disservice to women (and allows the field of women’s health to be overlooked) that girls are not taught the basics of their cycle along with the rest of health/sex Ed. It shouldn’t have to be a big mystery.

    4. For me it didn’t become regular, I’m sorry to say. Did you take naproxen or aleve or ibuprofen? Taking those around the clock is helpful. No reason to suffer. If it doesn’t let up with over the counters make an appointment with your GYN.

      The next one will be better, as the first one is such a shock after having the break for so long. Give it some time to settle. Take your drugs.

      I wound up using my menstrual cup… a lot … for safety, or at minimal a thin pad for protection.

      1. Yes, of course I took my usual ibuprofin. It dulled it, but didn’t eliminate it. That’s the problem. This is exactly why I went on the pill in the first place, too much pain to work effectively.

    6. I went off the pill to TTC about 8 months ago. I’m 38 with PCOS and had been on it since 20, to regulate my cycles and stop cysts. Happy that the cycles are just now starting to be regular. I got ovulation test strips and found I didn’t even ovulate the first 3 “cycles”, which were irregularly timed, short, heavy flow with cramps. I’m using the Flo app to track day by day. Now it’s about 4-5 days of normal flow and cramps on the first day only.

      1. Yes, there are many types of bleeds that are not a period (breakthrough bleed, withdrawal bleed) and they can actually be heavier than a period. The only way to know what’s what is to track your cycle, as you were doing.

        (I’ve tracked my cycle for 9 years now as my method of family planning, after 10 years on the pill. It is amazing how much information about your body you can glean when paying attention, and after a brief learning curve it’s fairly simple to accurately track — I’ve always been able to identify ovulation and no surprise pregnancies!)

    7. No, but my obgyn moved me to an IUD because of a history of migraine with aura, and I don’t get a period at all. I’ve got the mirena, insertion was not memorable at all, but I had two pregnancies first.

      1. adore my IUD. I had dismissed for years – I think the messaging in 8th grade health class in the 90s was that they were scary – but OB prompted me to revisit them in my 20s after BP was climbing on the pill. no periods after some light spotting months. i’m on my third one (had a couple of kids in there) and plan to refresh it. people seem to either love or hate theirs and i’m firmly in the former camp.

    8. I always say this, but the Period Repair Manual was a good resource for me (while working with a doctor). Things got much, much better for me, but not by waiting alone. I know things do normalize for many people from just waiting it out though!

    9. I haven’t been on the pill for years, but I can sadly report that every 24 days is regular for my period. What I wouldn’t give for the extra 4 days to get to the supposedly “normal” interval…

      1. Do you know how long your luteal phase is (the time from ovulation to the start of period)? Less than 10 days can be a sign of low progesterone, and by adding a supplement you could get some extra days! But it’s also very common for cycles to shorten as we approach peri/menopause, so it could be your new normal

      2. I started perimenopause this year and was clocking 18 days before my gyn put me on the pill again.

      3. That’s the extra annoying part: my cycles were never this short before the pill (always between 29-40 days – yes, I said 40 days). So 24 days better not be the new normal!

    10. I just stopped two months ago after using for about two decades. For the last 5 or so years I was on a seasonal pill and almost never had a period, even the 4 times a year I was supposed to. I had to stop because of a blood clot. I was told I could take a progesterone pill but I’m waiting to see what life looks like without anything before deciding. I still haven’t had a period, just a couple of random occasions with small clots in my urine and cramping, and am starting to wonder if something is wrong with me. In hindsight, maybe being on it for twenty years was not ideal. Oh also, I have been extremely anxious since getting off the pill, so that’s fun too.

    11. I haven’t been on the pill for a while because I have chronic migraine with aura and wasn’t able to take hormonal birth control at all. But, I will say the first day cramp pain was eventually manageable with pamprin or midol. As for predictability, if you’re old enough to be in perimenopause, that is one of the first signs. Mine is all over the place with shorter or longer cycles. On the plus side, they have also gotten lighter.

  5. I was looking back at a post from Feb 23 about a couple with a 17 year age gap who were considering getting married. I wondered if there was ever an update?

    1. That might have been me. We did not get married. He is wonderful but one of his exes began stalking me, and the police were not much help. We broke up because we could not think of a way to keep me safe, mentally, physically, or emotionally.

      2. yikes. that sounds rough. sorry I raised it back up. hope you are doing better now

  6. Happy inheritance story…

    My grandmother had several sons and daughters, with whom she had good relationships though she wasn’t particularly close with each. She had very little to leave them …except a set of gold bangles, some earrings and a gold necklace. She lived with her eldest son in her old age and was taken
    care of by him and his wife. She didn’t leave a will. When she died, my uncle’s wife called all her sisters in law and handed over the jewellery.

    By common consent, Granny’s daughters all refused to touch the jewellery and insisted that my uncle’s wife should take it all, as she had taken such good care of Gran in her last years.

    Just thought I’d share…

    7. I’ll add one too since I have a tendency to be a negative-nancy-grump:

      my grandfather died and there are 3 siblings, but instead of the siblings taking anything (and they had agreed in advance and this was all planned with grandfather) it skipped to us grandchildren who got the proceeds of IRA/house and with that money I paid off my student loans and think of him when I get excited about my new debt-free life :)

    8. I wasn’t able to comment on yesterday’s post but I wanted to say how much I appreciate hearing everyone’s stories (and again, how much I appreciated everyone’s perspective on my original post) – both have really helped me think through a lot of my feelings about this entire situation. I hope that everyone’s takeaway from yesterday was the importance of thoughtful estate planning with a trusted professional!!

      I have been so surprised by the emotions, and conflict that have come up since my mom’s passing. As someone noted, my dilemma wasn’t really about the ring, but more about how to be loving (?), or at least, “kind and mature” aunt to my niece in this situation. But of course, it was also about the ring.

      My mom’s dementia was so prolonged, and in the end, so severe, that the process of grieving her loss took place over many years. I thought I had already come to terms with being someone who no longer had a mother. When she actually passed, I was surprised at how strong, and how deep, the loss felt.

      When my dad gave me her wedding ring, it just felt weird, and wrong, to have it, and I didn’t know “what to do with it.” Of course, I didn’t have to “do” anything with it, but “Oh, when nephew gets married,* he probably won’t have a lot of money for a ring and so it might be nice to offer him this one in case he wants to give it to his fiancée or have the stone reset for her or whatever.” (*note that I do not in any way believe that getting married is everyone’s path in life!) It was never intended to create some kind of “heirloom” or family piece that gets talked about and handed down. Now that she is gone, I have so little left of her … so many of the things I loved from my childhood were already gone when we packed up the house – my dad had already given them away or thrown them out. I just feel so differently about her ring, and her memory, now.

      Here, I may raise some people’s blood pressure ;) when I mention that there are actually 3 grandchildren in this scenario … my brother’s two kids, and I have a daughter. Why didn’t I think to keep it for my daughter? We live on the opposite coast from my parents and my brother, and so my daughter doesn’t really have memories of my mother before her dementia, and really never had a relationship with her, whereas my brother’s kids spent more time with her when they were little and do have memories of a relationship with her.

      While my dad gave me her wedding ring and most of her “good jewelry” (for ‘Rettes of a certain age from Philadelphia, they were still in their original Bailey, Banks & Biddle boxes … green with a gold horse logo :), I gave my SIL and niece her jewelry box that had all the jewelry from her later years – things she bought for herself, things they might remember seeing her wear, etc.

      So, that’s my story. Thanks for listening!

      1. I thought you should keep the ring before and with this additional context, no question. You sound lovely and I’m sorry about your mom.

      2. Having lost mine as well, I will say you don’t have to ever give the thing to anyone. Simply because as you pointed out with your own daughter, it’s a connection to the person that is symbolized by the item. I have my mom’s and don’t have any intentions of marrying. But she gifted it to me and I am going to keep it for that reason. It doesn’t ever have to be worn — but I get comfort seeing it along with other things of hers in my home. Cherish the ring for yourself. It’s ok to be selfish.

    1. I did a deep dive on the history of orange rolls when we last talked about them, but didn’t get a chance to share what I found. The first known reference to orange rolls was in a recipe book issued by Sunkist in the 1940s. It was basically a cinnamon roll recipe but swapped out the cinnamon for orange zest and sugar, and an orange-flavored icing. They are still popular in the South. The Midwest has a version that uses a sticky orange glaze instead of icing. I am in the Midwest but am more familiar with the Southern version.

      1. I had no idea! I love the cranberry orange rolls from smitten kitchen and try to make them every year but my family demands cinnamon. I just love citrus and tart flavors with my sugar!

    2. How interesting!
      I love red and have so much of it in my house, lol…maybe I’m an anomaly.

    3. In the spirit of further research, I served actual cinnamon rolls at a small New Year’s Day gathering, but I asked the guests how they would have felt about orange rolls. The room was split between horror at the very idea, and horror that I didn’t have any!

  8. Venting here because my family would think I am a monster. I have an older female lab, a cat, and two kids and I am just ready to be DONE with the pet care. I can deal with the cat periodically having hairballs/cleaning the litter box but our 9yr old lab (while in very good health mainly) has developed a sensitive stomach, joint issues, and just normal aging stuff. In practice this means specialty food plus smaller meals more frequently, joint supplements, supportive beds, ramps, etc. We also seem to have GI issues roughly every other month (vommitting or needing to go out urgently overnight, throwing up inside the crate requiring bedding/carpets be cleaned and the dog be bathed, etc.). The vet confirms we’re doing everything right, and this is all to be expected at the age/breed we have. I am fully committed to taking care of the dog until it passes of course but after that I am putting my foot down – no more dogs!

    1. A good friend just had an older female lab who died after at least 4 years of really complicated GI issues. They had to do all this stuff – and eventually could only feed the dog in a vertical chair. (Hard to describe, apologies if I got the words wrong.). I think it’s ok to query whether this is the right life choice for this dog and whether the dog is really happy. I firmly believe that an important part of pet care is knowing when you are extending the dog’s life for your own benefit as opposed to the dog’s benefit. I wish you luck – this is really hard stuff!

      1. My friend’s lab has this problem too. It’s something with the esophagus. He hates the chair, and my friend is in touch with his littermates’ pet parents through the breeder. Several of them have been put to sleep due to poor quality of life :(

    2. I thought this was gonna go a different direction! You’re not a monster, and I agree. It’s just too much with kids and animals. I see people all the time getting a puppy while pregnant, and I just know it’s gonna be hell once that kid is born.

      1. OP here – I could never, in good conscience, rehome a pet simply for aging issues. That sets a terrible example for my kids given we often talk about how pets are a lot of responsibility because it’s our job as owners to make sure we take good care of them (food, healthcare, grooming, etc.) for their entire lives. We’ve had the dog since my oldest was 5 and my youngest was 3, and the younger one is already agitating for a puppy when our dog passes away (we did get a new cat when our elderly one died but cats are magnitudes easier than dogs imho).

        1. I get that you just wanted to vent and I am here to support you.

          I have two much beloved 14 year old cats who are starting to have issues (potty issues, eating issues, vomit issues) and it’s A LOT to deal with in addition to how they get their fur everywhere.

          They were stray kittens, just adorable litter mates 14 years ago, and it was great for my kids to grow up with pets and learn about being kind to and caring for animals – which I’m sure is the case with your kids!

          Just a hug from afar to say I get you.

    3. I feel this way about our cat. He doesn’t wee on anything anymore thank goodness but he’s loud and expensive. He was my husband’s cat, and once he goes, no more pets!

    4. I don’t think this makes you a monster. When our family dog died 4+ years ago now, along with sadness I also felt a lot of relief. He’d been our first “baby”and was wonderful once our human babies arrived, but he needed a special (expensive) diet for many years and various medications for the last few years. We also limited our travel the last ~1 year we had him, because we thought boarding him was too stressful for him, and finding a good in-home petsitter was tough. We’re just now thinking of getting another one, but our kids are much older and don’t require as much hands-on care. Hugs…caring for an aging pet is really hard!

    5. You are not a monster – older pets or pets with health issues are REALLY stressful! In the last four months of our dog’s life I felt like we were at the vet twice a month and it was $500 every time. And they did not offer punch cards.
      Question – could your partner/kids take on some of this care? Not sure how old your kids are, but they might be able to handle dog laundry, litterbox cleaning, etc.

    6. Honestly I adore my cats but after these, no more. Similar reasons. I actually didn’t choose either of these cats–they were both abandoned by my ex and I took them in a moment of soft-hearted-ness. My current issue is that they are eating and pooping us out of house and home (as my husband and I say). They blow through 6 mini cans of wet food (which they need or they get pee out side litter box issues, sigh) A DAY and a container of fresh litter like every 10 days or less. And this is not cheap.
      I think the cost of pet care is one factor that is keeping me mildly stressed. Like everytime we have to pay $24.99 for a carton of cat food that will disappear in a week, I feel my blood pressure rising.

      1. I really think I’d like to become a pet sitter after my last animal dies. I’d get my kitty or doggy petting time in, and just have something to do most days (and hopefully the days I choose) when I’m retired.

    7. Don’t feel bad, this is a real thing. Pet care can get intense in the later years, especially when you have other humans in the home to take care of. After our beloved pet died, we took a long break from pet care.

    8. Not a monster! I have four senior animals in my house and am the only caretaker and it is A LOT. When they leave this earth, I plan to have a pet free period so I can travel without having to stress about getting care or them getting out of sorts bc I leave, getting a new couch that won’t get ruined, having rugs that don’t need to washed all the time, etc.

    9. We felt the same way when our last dog reached her senior years. She was loved and cared for until the end, we just decided we were done with pets after she was gone.

    10. This may not be helpful but sharing in case anyone else might benefit.

      Our family dog developed severe GI issues around 8-9 years old. We spent do much time on many expensive vet trips and specialty food, nothing worked. We thought this meant it was time to make the difficult decision, until we decided to try a different national-brand of food (not specialty, just a different brand that we had not previously used). That was life changing for us and our dog, the GI problems stopped overnight and our dog was with us until he departed at 15 years old.

      Regarding the food switch, there were news stories at the time about heart problems caused by grain-free foods. The one we had previously used was a name brand and never on the list of problematic products but did have a similar ingredient profile, so we switched to a different food with a different ingredient profile.

      1. OP here – we’ve realized (and our vet confirmed) that if the lab’s stomach is too empty OR too full she vomits. So we do lots of little meals of kibble plus broth which makes it VERY hard to get a pet sitter when we travel because the dog eats at 6am/noon/5pm/9pm. Plus she’ll inevitably eat something weird in the yard/on a walk before we can stop her – that’s the random bouts of GI stuff resulting in cleaning/baths. Sigh.

        1. For the last 3 years of our dog’s life, his diet consisted of only shredded boiled chicken and rice, due to rampant GI issues. He was living his best life. I cooked 10 lbs of chicken a week (thank you, Instant Pot) and never want to see boiled chicken again.

          My other family members are starting to make noises about another dog and I am not sure I will ever be ready. It was so, so exhausting for so long.

        2. If your dog will eat plain kibble, perhaps you could use an automatic feeder for the noon feeding, to make life simpler. I realize this is a long shot and doesn’t address the totality of the situation. I adopted a dog years ago who had acid reflux, so I understand the many small meals/vomiting/laundry and rug cleaning life.

    11. Another vote for not a monster. We have a 15 year old chihuahua mix who has a variety of health issues and her care is expensive (and even without the health issues it wouldn’t be cheap – she’s neurotic and her preferred dogsitter is $50/night). I really don’t want to replace her when she dies.

      1. When I read chihuahua I immediately thought neurotic until I saw that word. That must be a lot to deal with. But they do kind of make me laugh, bossy little chihuahuas smaller than my cats, and they are always completely in control of all the humans and dogs around them. My neighbor has one (Bella) and I laugh every time her bossy self tells me to get the hell off my own driveway haha.

    12. I would give absolutely anything to have my cat back and to be cleaning up after him and spending the money and time and effort on ensuring his comfort.

      Still I wasn’t ready to take on another cat that was older or ill; I know there are no guarantees, but I was surprised that instead of using the skills I learned I really wanted a young healthy cat who hopefully won’t need those skills for a while yet.

    13. A lot of people extend pet lives past where the pet is happy due to love and guilt. When the time comes, you may be clearer viewed to make the decision at the appropriate time versus ages later than it should have happened. That doesn’t make you a monster, especially if you’re handling all the work of it.

      1. For me it was the fact that he’d always bounce back and be happy again, even when the medical experts said it was the end! Until of course the time when he didn’t (and even then it was an issue of veterinary hospital capacity preventing him from accessing needed care that I can’t provide on my own).

        I feel we need to address the veterinarian shortage and expand access to palliative care at least as much as we need to pressure people into “making the decision sooner than later.” I’d rather be alive and suffering personally, and if an animal is still willing to defend itself against a threat to its life that comes in a form it understands, I feel they’re also choosing to stay alive. Even if it’s sometimes our responsibility to go against their choices.

    14. For now, I wonder if you could hire help from a pet sitter or a dog walker who handles these things anyway?

  9. I’m a 1L at a school ranked in the ~60s, and just got my fall semester grades back. I got a 4.0!! I’m wondering if I should think about transferring. My current school is strong in it’s regional market (and usually the top ~15% can get big law). Goals are big law litigation but I think appellate law is interesting so if I went to school prestigious enough to pursue that, I might try to do so.

    If I transferred, I’d be giving up my scholarship, but I’d be willing to do that if it meant a T14 or T6 degree to carry with me throughout my career. Georgetown has an early decision program where you can submit only your first semester grades, but it’s binding. The upside there is that they have a huge transfer class, which would be nice and probably mean it’s easier to make friends. Chicago also has a binding early decision, that would let me apply with just first semester grades. Then again, if I can replicate my success second semester, I could apply to more schools be a bit more choosy (for example, Harvard has a bigger transfer class than Chicago so I’d prefer that, or outside the T6 I’d love to go to Michigan due to family connections there so I’d have a support network).

    I have a few questions I’d love to get any lawyers’ insight on:

    What do you think—is transferring to a T14 worth it (given I’d be giving up my 1L network and would probably be less likely to get on law review as a transfer)?

    Do I take the safe road and apply binding decision to Georgetown or Chicago with only first semester grades, or do I see if I can replicate my 1L success and blanket more?

    How much of a stigma is attached to transfers?

    I want to return to the regional market that I’m currently in, so would transferring away for a couple years be seen as insulting—as if our home/regional school isn’t ‘good enough’?

      1. +1 I ended up at a low ranked school and had plans to transfer out to Georgetown. I could have done it with my grades. However, I also had a scholarship, would get on law review without having to write on, and the school is as competitive if not more in the job market in our region/smaller market. I chose to stay and it has worked out great for me. Did local “big” law for a while, and eventually made my way in-house making a high salary for my LCOL area and really love the network I have here on this small legal community. If you are planning to go back to the region where you are now, and the school has a good rep there, I’d absolutely stay and not give up my scholarship.

      2. Agree. If you want to stay in the market where you are, there’s no need to spend a bunch of money on a more “prestigious” degree. Also if you can make it into BigLaw from your current school, there’s no reason you can’t do appellate litigation as well.

        That said, I don’t think anybody would hold a transfer against you, it’s just not necessary.

        1. Senior Attorney is spot-on here.

          Signed,
          BigLaw regional city equity partner that hires the top of all of our regional law schools

      3. Agree with this. I also think being at/near the top of our class (assuming your grades continue similarly for the next 2.5 semesters) in a region where you hope to practice is better than competing with all the insane gunners at a higher ranked school.

        1. I’ll disagree with this a bit — I attended a T6 and had a far more relaxed law school experience than my friends who were at schools like the OP’s. Sure there were a few “gunners” but since none of us were worried that Biglaw would pass us over if there were some Bs on the tr-nscript, there wasn’t the crabs-in-a-bucket fight to be in the top X% — like the OP notes that Biglaw will only interview from her school if you’re in the top 15%.

          1. This. I went to NYU and it was nowhere near as cutthroat and competitive as my friend who went to Emory.

          2. Probably depends on the specific school and how far down the list you go, but my T30 was not cutthroat or competitive. We got probably half the class into Big Law though.

    2. Do people from your current school get into the Big Law opportunities where you are? If so, I’d stay put. I went to a small regional school and ended up first in my class and got the top score on the state bar exam. I could have transferred to a higher ranked school, but I found that since my school was regional, it was just as impressive to potential employers that I went to home school and got high grades as it would have been for me to go to a higher ranked school and be in the middle.

      Also, if you really want to do appellate law, you have no chance unless you’re on law review (unless things have changed since I graduated a bit more than 10 years ago).

      Don’t discount the value of your scholarship, either. If you can do what you want from your current school and without any/much debt, I just don’t see the value in transferring.

      Congrats on a great first semester!!

      1. You can do appellate law if you focus on tax work or work in government. It’s not just all of the SCT BigLaw practices or nothing. State and local government, even if not criminal law, is where the appellate work really is.

        1. I’m the Anon above, and I work in appellate law in my state’s government. I don’t know anyone in this job who wasn’t on law review, though there may be people at the state agencies or the AG’s office who weren’t. At least where I am, people certainly talk about it! I have no experience with tax.

      2. There are also lots of opportunities to do appellate work on the plaintiffs’ side. BigLaw defense work isn’t the only path.

    3. I would transfer but only if you could get to a really good school – Harvard, Yale, Stanford, NYU. That will open every big law door to you. From a hiring perspective (I am a BigLaw equity partner) I don’t think there’s any stigma in transferring. I usually am impressed. If you can’t get to a top tier school or don’t want to give up your scholarship, I’d just work your butt off to keep your gpa high and proactively reach out to the law firms that don’t recruit at your school. Good luck and congratulations!

      1. +1
        I would not lose a scholarship to transfer to Georgetown but I agree that it could be worth it for other schools. You also might get a partial scholarship at another school, who knows!

    4. Don’t give up your scholarship!! Certainly not for a non-HYS school. It is really not worth hundreds of thousands to go to Georgetown, and I say that as someone who went to a similar school to Georgetown.

    5. I had a 4.0 first semester and a scholarship at a law school ranked 25-ish at the time, and one of my professors told me in all seriousness that I needed to transfer to a top school. I did not apply to transfer for a variety of reasons, but my choice cut off a lot of opportunities that before law school I hadn’t realized were restricted to HYS grads. It really depends on your goals and willingness to take on debt. Do you want to clerk for SCOTUS, work for the ACLU, or get a tenure-track teaching position and are you willing to take on massive debt that may limit your options down the road? Then you need to transfer to HYS and pray that you haven’t missed your chance to get noticed by the professors with the important connections. Do you want to practice law in the region where you attend school and not be tied down by debt? Maybe better to stay put, get your note published, be EIC of the law review, graduate ranked #1, and minimize debt.

    6. T5 law school attorney here. Transfer. The scholarship (how much is it?) will be irrelevant in 5-10 years; your law degree you have for the rest of your professional life. Law school grades are a lot a matter of luck and random, so there’s no guarantee you’ll remain top 15% at your lower-ranked school, whereas obviously if you transfer you’re guaranteed the prestigious degree.

      The question of whether to try for Chi now is an interesting one. Nothing in your post has suggested it would be the right choice to take Chi over Gtown if you get both, and it sounds like you can’t apply to both because the application is binding i.e. if you get in you accept? Would the family connections you mention at UM apply somewhat to Chi as well? I know it’s 4ish hours away, but the train between Chi and AA is actually pretty easy/cheap so may work for weekend visits.

      I’m leaning against waiting til the end of the year and applying to more schools. Again, law school grades are so random, esp at the top of the class – it’s very easy to get a B+ instead of an A depending on a professor’s mood, how you slept that night, etc. Plus transferring now will save you another semester of killing yourself to replicate your results/worrying about whether you can/stressing about the potentially missed opportunity.

      I’m a “bird in the hand” person. One way to think of it is: one year ago, if you’d been offered admission to Chi with no scholarship or your current school/current scholarship, what would you have done? That’s what you should do now.

      1. OTOH, it I wanted kids in my 30s, law school loans would have mandated staying in BigLaw to pay for daycare or a nanny, so I would have doubled down on the crazy in my life. Having low or no loans is so important because life comes at you fast from 35-45, especially if you aren’t going straight through.

      2. I completely disagree the scholarship will be irrelevant in 5-10 years. Six-figure law school debt will follow you for a long time, long time.

        2. Not if you pay more than the minimum and live frugally. Making 190k+ in BigLaw you should easily be able to pay off six figures of debt within 5 years. Of course the OP should consider their individual circumstances and whether their budget will allow for this. Perhaps I should have said the scholarship “could” be irrelevant in 5-10 years.

          2. +1, I paid off nearly $200K in 4 years – thanks Biglaw bonuses, which went 100% to the debt other than a <$1000 treat-to-self each year.

          3. But then you don’t have that money saved. I left Big Law after 5 years and the savings from not paying loans allowed me to lean way out without a lifestyle hit.

            And not everyone gets into Big Law (I graduated in 09 and know many smart people from top schools who didn’t make it to Big Law ) and those that do may not want to stick it out for 5 years. It’s a horrible feeling knowing you can’t quit your job because it will ruin you financially. I enjoyed Big Law more than most (while in my 20s and childless), and I think a big factor in that was knowing I didn’t have debt and could walk away at any point.

          4. Exactly. You were stuck in Biglaw for 6 years. That’s a long time to be trapped with no options.

        3. Agree to the millionth power!!

          I graduated with no law school debt. Compared to my peers who had six figures at better schools, I have a significantly better lifestyle. And I wasn’t trapped in a high paying but high pressure job that I hated just to pay the loans.

          2. Here to quadruple thumbs up this comment. I had a full ride to a top 60 school and graduating without debt has allowed me to live an amazing lifestyle and pursue career and personal opportunities that would not have been feasible for me otherwise. Even without attending a T14 school I still got a very, very prestigious clerkship and landed at the top law firm in my market (now an Amlaw 200). You’re in a very lucky position to be able to achieve all your goals without crushing debt, don’t throw aways that opporunity!

      3. I think “the scholarship will be irrelevant in 5-10 years” may be the worst advice I’ve ever read here.

        There are women here in their 50s and 60s with good professional jobs still paying off law school debt. Unless you make it to equity partner at a top firm (and very few do, or even want to), having hundreds of thousands in debt is a HUGE albatross. The single best life decision I ever made was going on a full ride to a T30 school instead of paying sticker price to Chicago. I have an incredibly cushy life in my mid-30s with plenty of savings and money for fun stuff, and none of that would be possible with massive law school debt.

      4. Different perspective – I didn’t transfer, but I chose a T5 school with a partial scholarship over a T30 school with a full scholarship. I ended up moving back to the region where the T30 school is for personal reasons and starting in Big Law there. I would have been better off at the T30 school. Ten+ years out of school, my most successful colleagues in my area have strong networks, often from having attended high school, college, and law school within the state. Absolutely nobody here cares where I went to law school.
        My loans from law school weren’t enormous, due to the partial scholarship and the fact that I didn’t have to take out a lot for COL because I lived with my then-bf, now DH, who was working. With the lower cost of living here, I was able to pay off my loans within 5 years, just in time to pay for daycare. That said, I have friends from law school who had much larger loans and stayed in HCOL areas and have had much more limited choices.

      5. I don’t think law school grades are that random. I got into a T5 but took a full ride merit scholarship to a T30 and my law school’s Latin honors and law review were closely correlated with the merit scholarship recipients. I agree that whether you end up as valedictorian or not can come down to the whim of one professor, but if she’s shooting for top 10-15% of her class that shouldn’t be that random.

      6. I had very similar options and did not transfer. I was in a part-time program and had a 4.0 at a top-50 school (which I chose over T14 options) after the first year. I stayed and ended up at at a V5 firm. I’m not a litigator and have no desire to work in appellate lit so maybe that is the difference but taking on a lot more debt with no guarantee that your result will be great is a big risk imo.

      7. I completely agree with Anonie at 12:07. My only caveat would be if the scholarship was a free ride, most are only a small fraction of the cost of school. Sometimes you have to just jump and grab the bird. And a legal career is long and schools matter, set yourself up.

    7. Congrats on crushing it! I have experience with this and would be happy to talk through details with you if you’d like. I’m a midlevel biglaw associate in appellate litigation. sonata.fenland-0m AT icloud.com

    8. The only reason I would transfer is if your T60 is not the strongest school in your regional market (eg transferring from American to Georgetown may make sense, or from Wayne State to UMich).

      How much is your scholarship worth? Does it cover all tuition? Is there any way it can be rescinded? Where are you in your class rank?

      Most importantly, where do the new associates in your market come from (ie do they come from T14s or the local regional T60)?

      1. Re: your first sentence, I’m not even sure about this. My context is Iowa, but at least in the Des Moines metro area Drake (#88) grads seem to do as well or better than U of Iowa (#35) grads. Stronger alumni networks, I think, since more of them stay local. Iowa definitely has a lot more portability to bigger cities outside the state though.

        1. Eh, I work with judges and they will make comments about the quality of lawyering they see from graduates of the really low-ranked local law schools. Wayne State in particular gets a lot of derision. I wouldn’t attend a very low-ranked school for this reason.

    9. First off, congratulations. Second, do not tell ANYONE in your class your grades, or your entire class will know and treat you differently.

      I think you should apply to a few non-binding programs, weigh your aid/loan burden (note–transfers rarely get scholarships, so staying where you are will be the better deal-money-wise). Then I’d also try to understand transfer job placement at the other schools. Biglaw hiring is way, way down, so you might have a better shot at biglaw as a big fish in a small pond rather than a big fish in a big pond, if that makes any sense. Your good GPA will carry over.

      It also would not hurt to reach out to any older alums in your area and ask what they think. Post on Fishbowl and Top Law Schools too with the specific region. Some regions are very hard to return to–Denver, Seattle leap to mind, so my advice would be different depending on the school/region.

      Again, congrats–you’re doing something right! Options are nice.

      1. This is a really good point. Where do you want to live? Some places are impossible to get into without coming from your local law school. In addition to Seattle and Denver, I’d add Minneapolis to that list.

        1. This isn’t true for Minnesota. I went to a top five school and had no problem getting a job in Minneapolis, although I did grow up in the state and went to U of M for undergrad. I think it depends a lot more on whether you true connections to the state.

          1. Yeah, I think for these tightknit communities it’s more about having clear connections to the state than going to law school locally. I signed up for a few Honolulu firms during OCI, mainly because I wanted a free trip to Hawaii and unsurprisingly the law firms saw right through that. But classmates from my T5 school who’d grown up in Hawaii had no problem getting jobs back there.

    10. My vote is don’t transfer. I went to a regional school with a scholarship and have fully paid off my student loans. It is very nice to have that freedom when I see other people I work with feeling trapped because they can’t afford to change jobs. I am in BigLaw litigation, and my school didn’t matter, but being in the top of my class and being on law review did. Since you said your school is known in your region and you want to stay in that area, I don’t see that you are gaining much from transferring, but you are going to take on tons of debt, might not get on law review, and might not be in the top of your class any longer.

  10. Two very random questions for this slow at work Friday.

    One – I saw people do this all the time in law school, and was mystified how they pulled it off then. I had forgotten about it, but was reminded yesterday when it popped up on Instagram. People bringing a standard mug (not a travel mug, these are mugs with no lids) full of coffee in the car. How do you do this and not spill everywhere? Where does the mug go in your car (it would not fit in my cup holders due to a handle)? Basically, I feel like this is some sort of magic and I would like to know the secret, as I manage to spill even with a leakproof travel mug sometimes.

    Two – several posters on here mention they work in higher education. What are the job titles/areas you all work in exactly? I went to a tiny, tiny liberal arts college with no grad schools attached to it, but I do a lot of alumni volunteer work with my school, so I’m decently familiar with the departments. Besides professors, there are a handful of deans (but they also are professors and teach at least one class), the admissions office, development/capital gifts, alumni relations, the athletics department, and then operations (which covers dining services, residence life, and overall campus maintenance). I don’t work in this field, but the people I know who have worked in residence life, development, alumni relations, admissions, or athletics at colleges don’t say they work in higher ed, they say they work in the specific field (I work in the development office for Bowdoin, I’m an admissions counselor for Wooster). So I am very curious about what it is you all do as your job! Thank you for sharing!

    1. There is no secret, they still spill. I also bring a giant thermos and refill my mug during the morning.

      1. On the flip side, I travel every morning with an open mug to the gym. It doesn’t go in a cup holder unless it’s empty which is how I prevent spilling and I don’t fill it to the tippy top. I have been doing it for years, so I guess I am used to it?

        For me, keeping my hand out from my body and allowing it to absorb the bumps is my “trick” I guess

    2. One – No idea. I have never mastered that. Only travel mugs for me if I’m taking coffee out of my house!

      Two – I’m in research administration. There are lots of different jobs under that umbrella. Nobody goes to school to do research admin as a profession, but there are so many transferable skills from other professions (legal, finance, accounting, liberal arts, communications and marketing, and many others).

      1. Two – we call it operations, but it is all around support for the research endeavor, everywhere from winning the money to spending the money. A great mix of colleagues with lots of different backgrounds and prior work experience. If you are decently organized, good at project management and into problem solving, it can be a rewarding job.

        1. What does this mean?

          You don’t write the grants… correct?

          You don’t decide how to allocate the $ one the research grant is awarded… the person who wrote it has to describe in detail what the $ goes towards.

          1. I don’t come up with the ideas in the grants, but my role could be involved in lots of other aspects. This can be helping craft the proposal to fit the sponsor requirements/structure, edit to make it stronger/fit the page limit, put together budgets accordingly and iterate with the research team (and advise on how to stretch the money best), navigate red tape internally and with the sponsor, keep track and partially write required appendix materials, proofing, final formatting and submission, herding the cats.

          2. And faculty members are notoriously terrible about project management. That’s where research admin pros can make a world of difference.

    3. I do #1, but generally only on my way to drop kids at school. I bring the mug down to the car after i’ve taken a few sips. It sort of fits in my cup holder so as long as it doesn’t slosh too much it’s fine; the handle tucks into the cupholder in my car. I don’t do extended driving with it.

    5. Finance & Accounting. Higher Ed is a business, heavily regulated in some places, not so much in others, with different rules for different pots of money. It takes quite a few of us to keep money flowing from many, many different funding sources so people can do their jobs and not end up in the newspaper (or prison).

    6. I say I work in higher ed. I’m in communications/marketing, so not a field that’s specific to academia, but fwiw, the people I know in student life, admissions and development sometimes also say they work in higher ed, depending on the context. If you’re talking about the substance of the work or giving advice that’s relevant to your field it makes sense to say “I work in admissions at Brown” but if you’re talking about employee benefits (which usually apply to all staff pretty much the same) or the work environment on campus, then sometimes it makes more sense to just say you’re in higher ed.

    7. I’m a professor, but if I’m answering a question here about fashion or schedules, I often just say I work in higher ed. People probably just say they work in higher ed because they’re trying to stay relatively anonymous. If I’m talking to someone in my field I’m say I’m a professor of X at Y university, but the specifics don’t really seem relevant to people here and frequent posters don’t want to post a lot of identifying details.

    9. Look, I don’t even know how people drink out of those to-go insulated things like a hydroflask. I always feel like someone has played a joke on me and given me a prank dribble cup, at least that’s how it works on me.

      What I actually do is take a few sips before traveling, then leave it closed & put it over ice once I get where I’m going.

      I tried a mug in the car just this week and it was a disaster.

  11. Mom question- I have a 14 year old daughter starting high school this fall and am trying to figure out what she should be doing this summer. What did you do for your pre-high school summer? We don’t have a tradition of sleep away camp, so that’s not really an option. But just about anything else is. I’m especially interested in perspectives from the younger crew on this board, since my early 90s high school life is a little outdated by now!

    1. A sports camp for a week or two and then just hanging out with friends and going to the sports practice every day.

    2. Same here! I expect there to be some day camps that align with his interests. I am also hoping upon hope that he can either volunteer somewhere or get a very part-time job. That will require transportation, of course, but I was working at his age and I don’t need him loafing around the house all summer.

    3. she can get a job as a CIT at a local daycamp. She can babysit. My 14 year old neighbor is a gymnast. She works at her gym as an assistant counselor at their summer gymnastics camp for a few hours/day, does gymnastics summer training,and babysits my kids for about 8-10 hours/week.

      My 12 year old has some older friends and there’s a group of them that just hang out at our local town swim/tennis club. Some of them swim on the team, some play for the tennis team, some just hang at the club with friends all day. When you turn 14 you can be a sitter there, so I pay some of them to be the sitter of record for my 8 year old (my 10 and 12 year old can be there with no sitter but are not old enough to be a sitter themselves).

    4. My daughter rotates between a local pool, her friends’ houses, and sporadic camps/clinics that relate to sports she does or likes. She’s also in a summer softball league so she has that during the evenings. We go away for 2-3 weeks.

      Her BFF goes to sleepaway camp all summer but that ends at 15. Next year I think they both want to be lifeguards at the local pool.

    6. My daughter volunteered at a local day camp, had weekly violin lessons, kept up with her ballet class (did a one week “intensive” which was just longish daily classes), and spent a few weeks on vacation. Nothing major. Also, she did a few days of the “high school boot camp” that a local tutoring place runs because she was worried that high school would be harder than middle school (didn’t turn out to be but it made her feel better).

    7. I think I just hung around the house, honestly. With a few weeks of camp related to my sport in there. It was a nice lazy summer, the last one I had until high school graduation (years 15-17 I did more academically intense stuff).

      The teens I know now have summer jobs like lifeguarding at the pool, are counselors in training at local day camps, go to sleep away camp, do day camps/summer practice for sports and art interests, take college classes online or some combination of the above. If your kid is not traditionally outdoorsy, but the idea of overnight camp seems appealing, look at nearby universities. They often have residential camps where you can earn some college credit and get a taste of campus life. I really enjoyed those as a kid.

    8. I started working part time the day after I turned 14 but I understand that isn’t the norm in many circles (or now? This was, of course, the 90s, when teens had much more freedom and independence).

      I am huge fan of teens working part time and learning to be accountable to someone besides a parent or teacher!

      1. Summer jobs for teens are still pretty common where I am. It’s more common after turning 16 though because then kids can drive. 14-15 year olds tend to do stuff they can bike to, like babysitting for neighbors.

    9. A lot of teenagers near me get a low-stakes summer job, like working at the concession stand at the pool — just enough for some pocket money and get them out of the house while learning some responsibility. The girl next door spent last summer working 2-3 days a week as a summer sitter for some younger kids a block over. I often saw them carrying a picnic basket to the playground for lunch.

    10. I’d reconsider your opposition to camp. 13-14 is the prime age for most of the really cool summer programs (except for a handful of pre-college programs and arts intensives), and if you wait another year or so she may find them a bit young and restrictive. IME camp is a really important and transformative experience that can lead to greater independence and a willingness to be more expansive in the college search. Some camps offer financial assistance if that’s a concern. It doesn’t have to be a traditional outdoorsy summer camp. There are arts programs, tech camps, space camp, etc. My daughter’s favorites were Interlochen arts camp (admittedly semi-outdoorsy) and US Space Camp in Alabama.

      If camp is not an option I’d consider shipping her to an out-of-town relative for a week. One popular option is taking summer school courses to free up space for electives, advanced courses, or study hall during the year. My daughter knocked out her PE and personal finance requirements this way.

    11. Does she have any specific interests you could help nurture? I was in a smaller town but I volunteered in the library for 20-ish hours a week during the summer before high school (and the first HS summer).

      1. Library is a great idea. Ours hires lots of teens for both volunteer and paid positions.

    12. I graduated high school in 2011. I played as much field hockey as I could (there were several pick up games in my area), worked out for field hockey, babysat a ton, and hung out with my friends almost daily / nightly (go to the township pool, go to the movies, hang out at each others’ houses).

  12. Chapter 13 here. I just want to say thank you so much for all of the supportive replies yesterday. I fully expected to be attacked, and maybe that’s something else I need to look into in therapy. You all were so thoughtful and supportive. Therapy session is in about 30 minutes…I’m scared and nervous, but I know this is what I need to do. Hopefully it’s a better experience than when I saw a general psychologist a month ago and she kept asking me if I had a drug problem…

    1. I don’t think that’s a question for therapy, tbh (the attacking part) – that’s just the reality here. People can and do get attacked for posting vulnerable things. It sucks and I wish it were different. I’m so glad that you’re taking steps and I wish you all the best in this journey – better days are ahead.

    7. Best of luck to you! But in my mind, people get attacked here for silly stuff that doesn’t matter. It’s usually obvious that the poster (respondent) is having a bad day or is just a miserable person in general. At the moment, no good example comes to mind, though . .

    8. Good for you!

      The posters who get the worst of it usually (1) exclude super relevant info from the original question and then get mad when people give advice that doesn’t make total sense with the benefit of that missing context, and or (2) reject all advice that’s seemingly not what they wanted to hear. Posters like you, who are asking for help and good juju in earnest, are not going to draw that ire.

    9. I hope your appointment went well! You’re doing great seeking out professional guidance.

      FWIW, my therapist taught me that my fear of being attacked was a huge red flag for having ADHD. Look up “rejection sensitivity”. I’ve led so much of my life being a people pleasure to avoid conflict, and taking ADHD meds has made a HUGE difference in that pattern. Honestly, the best part of therapy is realizations like these. For me, it was completely normal, but then I learned most people don’t live like this, and that I don’t have to, either!

    10. I think if you tell your therapist about feeling attacked on the internet, unless she knows this place in particular, she will tell you not to post on the internet. It tend to be a cesspool. This is a very unique place. Happily you have many supporters here who are real people who want the best for you.

      I mean if you posted on some other place, identified yourself as female, and tried to talk about your financial issues, you’d get a lot of horrible, horrible DMs!! Ask me how I know!

  13. Can anyone point me to a good resource for setting freelance rates? A former colleague has asked if I want to consult on a project, and I’m considering it, but have always been an employee. This would be a side gig, and I would continue to be employed at a full-time job. It’s intellectual work, so not a lot of expenses outside of tax implications. What else do I need to consider? TIA!

    1. I freelance. Here are some considerations, assuming you have no conflict of interest etc:
      1) Is this an area where you want to build long term clients outside of your normal W2?
      2) how badly do they want you?
      3) How badly do you want to work for them?
      4) What would you make as a W2 employee delivering this sort of work? Eg. If they are looking for output that would normally come from a COO, and they don’t have a COO, what is the going rate for the COO?
      5) How unique/valuable is your knowledge/skill set? Can they get it somewhere else (whether or not they want to)?

      They know you’re employed, and you should be really honest when pricing yourself- are you going to be giving them your full attention or will you be treating them as the side gig they are?

      As a starting point, I’d take what would otherwise be a W2 hourly rate, and charge 150% of it. I would then add additional dollars if you bring highly unique insights to the project.

      I used to work in marketing. When I freelance now as essentially a marketing VP, I charge “contractor rate” (~130-150%) for my time on an hourly basis- in my world, that’s about $150/hr, which I sometimes round to $175-180 if I think it’s a low hour sort of gig. However, when I’m brought in for a very niche purpose/project, I’m not just a part time contractor marketing VP, I’m a uniquely positioned specialist/consultant. In those cases, I charge more like consulting dollars, which are $250-350/hr or if I think it’s more appropriate, I just do a per diem rate of $2k-$2500/day. I’ve also offered a monthly or weekly rate up to X hours, and I bake in all the time of mine I think they’ll waste trying to get a project done–so something like $15k/month for an 80 hour bucket and $300/hr after that. I keep them very in the loop on the hours so there is no surprise.

      I also heavily factor in if I like the client, how easy the work is, how easy it is to get paid, the liklihood that they will nickel and dime me on hours, etc. I’ve done projects that end up with me being paid something like $50/hr and I’ve done others where some PE firm wants info YESTERDAY and I happen to be uniquely positioned to do it and I work one crazy week and make $30k because I do it flat rate with a guaranteed deliverable in one week.

    2. I’ve heard 3x your hourly rate at work (take your salary and divide by 2,000). That accounts for the higher taxes you pay (employer side of FICA), lack of benefits, and less consistent nature of the work.

    3. I do a lot of consulting, and usually I take the highest end of a similar position’s salary at the company and make that my hourly rate. I figure that will help address the tax implications. My advice is to stand firm at your rate, especially if it’s not a dream opportunity. If they want you, they’ll pay for you. I’ve had companies try to bargain me down, and I hold firm. Several times I’ve said “oh, I already discounted my usual rate because I’m so enthusiastic about this opportunity, so I hope you understand I can’t go any lower”.

    4. I am a sole proprietor consultant. My rate is basically twice what my hourly salary was when I was employed full time.

      Remember that you have to pay more taxes when you’re on a 1099 basis rather than W2 – you pay the taxes your employer used to pay on your behalf, as well as your share of it which you paid as an employee – called “payroll taxes” – social security and all of that.

      You have to buy your own health insurance if not an employee. I buy liability insurance (general and professional) and of course you have to provide your own business equipment, like your computer, phone etc, as well as a place to work.

      I formed an LLC to protect my personal assets & highly recommend doing so if this is going to be an ongoing thing for you. That carries costs but it is probably less than you’d think – I got the start up done for $2200 and pay $800 a year in franchise tax to keep it going. Good luck!

    5. You’ve received good pricing guidance but it wasn’t clear if your side gig is in any way related to your day job. Many employers don’t look kindly on side gigs in the same or similar field – make sure your employer isn’t one of these. You don’t want to lose your day job for a side gig.

  14. I was so excited to show up to work early and get some work done without distractions . . . And I forgot my keys. I’m not usually the first one here.

  15. I’m feeling really demoralized at work this week. Context: I LOVE my boss and the organization as a whole. My boss is supportive and awesome, one of the best. But I’m senior enough that she can’t really protect me from dealing with leadership and all that entails. I’ve had to deal with some annoying higher-ups who are important because they bring in the business, but completely lack any emotional intelligence. I feel like it’s been this way everywhere I’ve worked. They control the power and money so they can act however they want and break all the rules. I didn’t notice it as much when I was more junior, but as I’ve advanced in my career it’s become impossible to ignore.

    This place is way better than the last few places I’ve worked so I don’t want to just jump ship. Besides, is it really better anywhere else? I’ll add that as a 40-something woman, it’s hard being in an industry with so few women over 40 in it. I feel invisible and old. And I’m not that old! I just wonder, is this why people drop out of the workforce?

    I am not going to retire at 40 or anything, but the thought of dealing with this for another 20 years is not very appealing right now. Could use a pep talk or even just a “deal with it” from anyone else who’s felt similarly. Thanks to this group; you all have gotten me through some tough times!

    2. idk, entitled rainmakers are part of every company I think. Whether their behavior is bad enough to have real consequences as opposed to looking the other way depends on what it is they’re doing…

    3. I could have written this post, so commiseration! I’m in marketing/communications, primarily in smaller shops. I’m about to turn 40 and completely burnt out by managing personalities of leadership who also lack EI, don’t know what I do, don’t understand my field, don’t want to listen to my recommendations, and make really simplistic recommendations like “have you tried social media? I hear that’s a big thing.” It makes me want to tear my hair out. I consistently don’t have the resources I need to do my job, I quantify what I need and why, and it falls on deaf ears.

      I wish I had a solution! I’ve considered shifting gears, and I did apply to jobs in adjacent fields, but no dice. I worry I’m pigeonholed with 15+ years experience in this field. I’ve been networking with friends at larger corporations who say one challenge is I’m more a generalist in smaller teams, so I’m doing the job of 2-3 people. So I’ve been working to make different resume iterations to be more of a specialist aligned with a particular role.

    4. I could write this story chapter and verse (law firms are notorious for this – people who bring in the business can do whatever they want with little in the way of consequences). The only question is how bad it is. I left one job because the rainmaker’s long-term protegee (everyone else thought mistress) was allowed to get away with incredibly abusive behavior (screaming at people; blaming others for errors in documents she created; blaming others for doing things she expressly told them to do in writing, etc.) because at every other firm they had worked at together, her getting fired was followed by him taking his $$$$$ book of business and her to another firm. I spent years at different firm with a partner whose words came straight out of the 1950s – although oddly he was not hard to work for if you could live with his stated opinions about women in law – he wanted pushback, so I gave it to him, he respected that, and we got along great until he retired during the pandemic.

      So this is my advice and it is going to sound harsh and I would not say it if you have not invited someone to tell you to deal with it: Suck it up and deal with it unless it reaches a level of abuse that is messing with your mental health. Because it is not going to be better anywhere else – either in terms of agism or entitled assh*le higher-ups. It is the price of admission for moving up in an organization that you have to work with the people who bring in the money because those people are often not pleasant to work with but employers put up with it because they need them to stay in business. But know you have my sympathy.

      1. I am in government, so the rainmaking piece is not applicable but politics result in a nearly identical outcome. I preferred my job when I had more insulation from the politics simply by being lower on the ladder.

    5. Post Covid it’s amazing how thin the over 40 women count is in the office. Sure there are women working but with working from home they are invisible. I felt very exposed in my last role as a 43 year old divorced mother of 3.

      It’s a relief to be out of the toxic environment and my next role is going to be something where it’s a bit more diverse outside of the office and on a coast. I have always lived within 5 miles of sea or ocean water. The work situation isn’t going to be better by me working remotely but I can do better when I have good ways to relieve the stress.

  16. How can I learn about abutters rights to a private way? There’s a very short private way with 2 houses that dead ends at our backyard.

    There’s a gate with a padlocked door separating my backyard from the private way and signs indicating restricted access. The property lines on google maps actually seem to indicate that the end of the private way is on my property. I don’t see anything on the deed about an easement.

    We’re trying to figure out if we can access the private way, either walking down it or parking there. We’re in a city, and there’s a shopping plaza 30 yards away at the other end of the private way. We look out the window and see the plaza, and it would be so much easier to walk straight through rather than going all the way around the block.

    I emailed my city councilor and haven’t heard back. Would this be a question for inspectional services? Public works?

    1. I feel like the easiest, if not cheapest, way would be to hire a real estate lawyer to track down the actual property boundaries, and then write a letter to the neighbors about access if that seems indicated.

      1. Would this be a matter that the atty who handled my closing could potentially handle?

    2. I’d start with figuring out your actual property line and not just what G–gle Maps says. A drawing would have been attached when you purchased your house. If you think it’s wrong, a surveyor would be the first start I think.

      1. and of course the other thing you could do is be friendly with the neighbors and see if they’ll give you a key :)

        1. I tried talking to them, but both of the buildings are occupied by renters who don’t have a key.

      2. I looked up my deed on the county assessor page. There’s no map of the property. I’m in a 6-unit condo building. It only lists a map of the unit itself. There’s information about access to the backyard in common, but no map of the ground property.

          1. That was my first thought, but the trustees also don’t know. We are 6 owners with 3 trustees, and they’re also curious about our access. None of us have lived here very long. We don’t know who placed the padlock or who has a key.

            The city plows the private way, and there’s a city hydrant there too. In looking more closely on the tax assessor site, there’s actually only 1 house with an address on that private way, even though 2 park on it. I suppose I could try tracking down that owner/landlord and asking if we can remove the padlock to walk through there.

        2. OK if this is a condo, you need to look at the condo regs- who owns the grounds + how are access disputes handled.

          1. well, I do not think the condo regs will show the property lines for the abutters and the private way.

          2. If it’s a condo, could you get all the owners interested in having the condo association hire the surveyor and/or lawyer be the results would benefit all the residents?

    3. Google Maps is absolutely not an authority on property lines and I wouldn’t even take what it says into consideration at all.

      1. Yeah, you’re right. I looked on the tax assessor website that lists property maps. That indicates the private way is much smaller than it is. It ends right at my gate. On the map, it looks like it only goes 3/4 of the way to the gate. Now it’s possible the gate isn’t the property line, but the gate extends in either direction the length of the city block, demarcating all the other properties. And there is indeed 1 long straight line demarcating the property line on the tax assessor site, so I think that’s accurate.

    4. Where I live it wouldn’t be a local government issue at all. I guess I’d probably want to look things up with my state recorder’s office.

    5. You’ll need the registration for your property, as well as the official city map to get a general understanding of your property which can be verified by a surveyor.

      Buuuuuut, depending how old your house is if it precedes your city’s incorporation and mandatory property use conditions you might own everything free and clear. My house is old enough there is no easement for neighbours so I have a solid fence, there is also no utilities easement so I got to have a few electric poles and telephone lines removed as well.

      1. I’m in an old city incorporated before the building was built. That worked out nicely for you!

    6. I would go to your City Hall and speak with the town clerk and/or town attorney. They can let you know if property records are kept by the city or the county. Then you want to go find the “building jacket” which is the file for your property, and that of the abutting properties. Then you get to sit in a dusty records room and do some sleuthing. Take what you find to a RE attorney.

    7. Update – I kept looking on the country registry of deeds and found the original property line map document from when the house was converted into separate condo units in the 1970s. I found a GIS map with a map legend showing how many feet per square inch, so I suppose I can go measure from the fence to the house and the sidewalk to see how that corresponds to the property line map.

      The private way was built in the mid-70s, and it looks way shorter than it actually is on this map with a scale.

      1. From someone who works in real estate, I wouldn’t trust the GIS either. Boundaries can and do change and they are not always updated on the GIS. That is why it says to not use it for legal purposes.

      2. I really don’t think you should be doing this based off any online maps. (And if I were the neighbor and you tried to claim my driveway as your own based off them, I’d laugh it off.) You should get an actual survey.

        1. I hear you. Any idea how much a survey would cost? I’m hoping to gather some more info before paying a surveyor because this will all be out of pocket. The HOA has no interest in paying for this.

          It came up recently at a meeting, and the other condo owners just want to cut the lock’s chain and start walking through the door and down the way to access the shopping plaza. Given the landlord doesn’t live there, they’re feeling like “ask forgiveness not permission”. I’m more risk averse, thus prompting my research on a pretty empty Friday afternoon!

          1. The private way landlord doesn’t live there – we tried knocking on the door to ask about it*

          2. I would be all for cutting the lock and walking along the path. but I would not park in the right of way or plant a garden or anything that would bring up territorial thoughts.

    9. The legal advice sub on Redd1t is a great place to go for this. If you’re not in the US, look for the one in your country. They get basically this same question all the time.

      If you draw a really bad MS paint drawing of the driveway and where your house is and where the shops are, they will absolutely love you.

  17. Things I love: When you pick up your phone to cancel an appointment, and there’s a text from the other person canceling it first.

    1. I wish this would happen to me for an appointment I have on Sunday. Nothing objectionable about it. I just don’t wanna.

  18. Thank you to the ladies on this board for helping me think through the situation with my boyfriend.

    I’ve been dumped. It all happened via text message too. We last spoke on Sunday – he was texting me about planning a future together. I texted that we should do that, while also spending some time figuring out if our long-term goals were compatible. That turned into a phone conversation that didn’t go well. He called my desire to discuss our financial plans “obscene” and “insulting.” He did apologize for yelling at me at the end of the call. I was mostly listening, did not say much. I said it would be best to discuss this in person, which meant Wednesday after work. He texted that he would not let our in-person discussion become like our call. On Wednesday morning he dumped me via text, saying he was sick and preferred to avoid the conversation.

    I have quite a few things at his home after 2 years. It sounds like he is going to throw everything in boxes; he will not allow me into his home to retrieve my things. I have even been deleted on LinkedIn.

    He clearly doesn’t want to hear from me, and I will respect that. I am just so stunned that our relationship could completely burn down via text message. No other communication. It feels juvenile and tragic and just sad. We have only had one other argument and emerged stronger from it, or so I thought.

    1. I am sorry. But, I think in the long run, you are better off. Hugs to you as you get through this!

    2. I’m really sorry to hear this sudden ending. Please know that you didn’t do anything wrong! It’s not only normal to discuss financial plans in a serious relationships – it’s smart and quite imperative.

      I would reframe your thinking from “I was dumped” to “I was smart and recognized potential red flags, and he blew up when I tried to have an important conversation to clarify these issues and plan for our future together.”

      I remember your previous post. His really extreme reaction certainly confirms the many suspicions that he isn’t being truthful with you, whether it’s a gambling/drug problem or other unknown debts. Definitely very juvenile and sneaky. That ultimately isn’t someone you deserve to build a life with.

      1. Also, look into a “civil standby” – in my county, you could ask the police to meet as a peacekeeper while you remove your items in a situation like this. The cop wouldn’t stay there for hours while you came in with a moving crew, but would be there for a reasonable time to pick up your important belongings and get out.

    3. Yikes, I’m so sorry you are in this position. Your perception that this is juvenile is entirely accurate. I am sure it feels tragic but you dodged a bullet.

      FWIW, it strikes me as odd that you only had one other argument in 2 years of dating – perhaps this is a reflection of how much he avoids conflict? Or do both of you? It is normal to have disagreements. Anyway, it is probably too soon for that kind of reflection. Sending you big hugs.

    4. The fact that he reacted like that shows that you hit a trigger point – he treats talking through financial matters as a terrifying and rage-inducing subject, which speaks to either 1) his complete lack of financial planning and unwillingness to look at this or 2) something else going on (spending addiction, gambling, drugs, lying to you about how much he actually makes). There is something he’s hiding that is so scary to him to uncover that he would rather break up with you then try to discuss it openly and honestly.

      All couples discuss finances, especially after 2 years. I’ve been with my bf for 2.5 and know his salary, bonus structure, savings, 401k etc. You were totally within reason to ask. That he is reacting this way is a huge red flag and you’ve dodged a massive bullet.

      Sending you lots of love. You didn’t do anything wrong. Please take care of yourself during this difficult time and know that this is for the best.

    5. Agree with the emerging consensus; you dodged a relationship bullet here. Do something nice for yourself this weekend.

    6. woof, I’m sorry he is behaving this way but glad that he showed his true colors in SUCH spectacular fashion that you can walk away confident in the bullet dodged.

    7. I think this means that he knows his poor habits have been spotted, and he doesn’t like that, and never wanted to address these habits. You will be better off…I’m sorry, as I know this hurts, and that you had hopes for this relationship that suddenly went belly up.

      1. 100%. He was found out, or was on his way to being found out….and he ran away. Not your fault, OP. And a bullet dodged.

        But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t suck a lot. I’m sorry.

    8. You are all so kind. Thank you. I was crying some in my office but feeling better after reading these replies.

      I need to work remotely in early February because my office will be under construction for 2 weeks. I have decided to look at inexpensive rentals in Hawaii for those weeks. I have miles to cover the flight. And I do not have to pay for him anymore, so my 2024 travel budget will cover a lot more now:)

      1. I love this for you! have a wonderful trip! and yes, just pay for yourself for once!

      2. I’m glad you are doing something for you. Breakups are hard and this is going to hurt. I highly recommend the Breakup Bootcamp pod cast for actionable help for getting through this. Do all you can to support yourself during this time and know that better days are ahead!

      3. Ugh I’m sorry this happened to you. The fact that he was yelling at you over a basic relationship discussion is appalling. He may not come crawling back as that often doesn’t happen. However, if he does, remember how he’s making you feel, hold it close to you. This is a bad relationship if he blew up and is cutting you off with no conversation after two years. He is not a good partner.

    9. Based on what you wrote it sounds like the best possible outcome.
      If the things at his house are replaceable, I would say write them off and get new things for your new life going forward.

    10. Does anyone have a link to the original post? I looked through both posts from last friday and couldn’t find it… maybe I’m blind though

      1. It was a wild post. Bf claimed to be making 7 figures but couldn’t cover a routine monthly credit card bill, and OP was paying travel and date expenses!! Things definitely weren’t adding up.

        OP, you saw the red flags, and he confirmed them with this behavior. I’m sorry. He is the problem here, not you.

        1. Thank you, this helped me find the original post (Jan 3rd, I think).

          OP, if you are still reading, you dodged a bullet. My now-husband is was terrible with money when we met, had no savings, debt, etc (he was not a high earner though). But he never misrepresented the situation, and when we got to the point in our relationship where we were talking about money more explicitly (4ish months in, not 2 years!), he was honest and open about everything. He ended up learning a lot from me and improved his habits, and we got a prenup before getting married (I’m divorced with a kid and have significant savings and no debt), which he was totally fine with. Now that I know more about his parents’ finances and financial history, I get why he had such bad habits. So — I would say bad financial habits are not necessarily a deal breaker — but lying and misrepresenting is. Given his volatile reaction, I strongly suspect there’s some unsavory reason that his finances are bad. I know it’s hard to end such a long relationship, and I’m sure he had good qualities, but in the long term this is for the best for you.

        2. I still think he had a gambling problem. Anyway, he can have a gambling problem all by himself now.

          Good for you OP, the good part of your life starts now.

    11. Hugs to you! I know it’s been sudden and shocking, but future you is so very much better off without a man who has weirdly mysterious expenses, lives beyond his means, and has a sh1tty attitude when it comes to communication. Take care of yourself and spend maybe about three hot seconds thinking of him and how miserable he would have made you. Thank you, next!

  19. Have you ever suggested to someone that they should look for a new job?
    Someone at my company has been doing horribly for a long time, gotten plenty of feedback about it but not made any changes etc etc. He was going to be put on a PIP but now they’ve decided to just fire him since a PIP won’t do anything.

    This is not my team so its not actually my problem. But if you knew someone who was going to get fired and wanted to suggest that they should start job searching how would you do it.

    1. Don’t get involved. Your friend is performing badly. He or she should come to the conclusion on their own that it’s time to look.

      1. Agree. Plus if the firing is imminent it’s not likely to be much help anyway.

      2. This is not a friend lol – more was asking if anyone has ever suggested to their own direct report that its time to move on.

        Although good point that he is going to get fired soon enough so it doesn’t make a huge difference.

    2. I would not involve myself at all in something that was neither my problem nor my business.

    3. Do not get involved. You make be breaching confidentiality obligations you owe to your employer or interfering with HR activities. Why do you have this information?

    4. I wouldn’t put myself in the middle. It isnt your job to convey this info to him. Hopefully he sees the writing on the wall- if not, that’s on him. If you like him, say you’re happy to be a reference should he ever need it and leave it at that. But it sounds you couldn’t give him a positive reference anyway.

    5. Breaching this type of confidentiality is often a disservice to the person you tell. A friend gave me this type of heads up when I was young, and because I was inexperienced and emotional, I quit my job. I ended up losing severance benefits, and the domino effects hurt my finances for years.

  20. I think the framing of your question threw me a little. If you know someone is going to get fired because you’re their boss and you’d be the one firing them, its kind of a different answer. Once you’re in the PIP or RIF process you should just say what HR advises you to, but plenty of managers should and do coach employees to understand their strengths, interest and gaps and how they line up against the job or the organization they’re in and help them think about other options. It has to be done smoothly but I think that’s a sign of a really high quality manager.

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