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Anon
A friend’s (very mature and responsible) high school senior daughter is going to house and dog sit for me for a week while I’m out of town. Any ideas what I should pay her? DC metro.
(Details in case it’s relevant: She knows the dogs and the dogs know her. Two sixty lb dogs. They’re super low maintenance – they don’t even like walks! – they just want to be let out in the yard. I have two houseplants and 4 outdoor flowers that need watering.)
Anon
Oh, she’d be staying at my house for the week, in case that wasn’t clear.
DC pandas
Anywhere between $50-80 per day (depending on expectations) is reasonable. Is she staying in your home full time, or just stopping by intermittently?
Ellen
I think you are a bit to generus @ $80/day, since the girl will be there for a week. I would give her up to $420 (or $60/day) since she is getting to stay there and eat your food. You need to lay down ground rules about having parties in your house, b/c she is at the age where things can get out of hand quickly with young men and their libido’s. moreover, all women will be fair game for high school boys, even those that are not pretty, as boys will take whatever they can get. Trust me, you do NOT want to be held responsible for some kid getting drunk and driving, or some of the young ladies unwittingly turning up pregnant after a beer fest held at your place while you are out of town. So I would make the $420 contingent on all items checking out upon your return; clean place, nothing broken, and no police calls in your absence. In fact you can throw in an extra $100 after you inspect the place and all is well. Good luck!
Anon
Ugh. I feel for the girl but this seems so typical. Agreeable. Agrees to things. Never discusses $. Undervalues her time. Can you have a discussion with her and also say something like next time I want you to make sure there is a money discussion in the discussion because I value you and value your time and want to show that by you feeling that you are being paid fairly and know that in advance vs hoping? This is a lifetime skill and I worry that if this is how the responsible girls are, they won’t stop this once they are real-jobbing.
anon
Eh, I think this is pretty common. She’s watching dogs she knows, and I know that as a high school kid, had I not had a dog at home, I would have been all over this.
$50-$60 is standard per day – I’d pay that. You’re also getting the benefit of someone you know and trust.
nuqotw
I agree with both of you. It is very common for a high school student to feel awkward talking about money *and* it’s very important to be explicit with girls that it is normal and important to talk about money since society will send that same message to boys.
Cat
I think there’s a way to coach here without giving her a lecture. Text her with a fair offer (“realized we didn’t talk about pay! is $60 a day ok with you?”) rather than unilaterally saying “great, I’ll pay you $400 when I get back!” perhaps?
anon
I like this. This gives her agency and treats it as an equal transaction but doesn’t come across as if she did something “wrong” by not pushing OP on payment in the first place. I also agree 60 is fair.
Anonymous
When I’ve hired teenage baby sitters, I always ask them for their rate to get them to practice asking for money. Some answer with a number I think is market, and I pay it. (No one has ever thrown out a number that’s higher than I expected — but I also was used to hiring adult nannies who charge $$$). If they name a number that’s too low, I tell them it’s too low and that they should be asking for $X. If they won’t name a number, I suggest a number and tell them they should be comfortable asking for that amount in the future. None of this has to be a major lecture — just a two sentence conversation in a cheerful tone.
Cat
I like this approach, too!
Anon
This is a great approach (and one a family I babysat for as a kid used). They asked me to name a rate, I hemmed and hawed and finally threw out a low number. They corrected with a market rate and it was a good learning experience.
Anon
This is smart
Anon
I don’t love the idea that helping out family/friends needs to be paid. Back in high school when I would dog sit for family/friends, and even now in my late 20s I don’t expect much (or any) payment. I think paying her something is nice, but market rate of $50-$80 a day is a lot. I’d say $100 flat rate would be fine.
Anon
Have you priced dog sitters / boarding? For a week? IMO dog sitting > boarding for my dog, but that would be much more expensive for one dog. Plus a lot of people leave a good amount of food for their dog / house sitter. $100 flat rate is IMO not going to cut it and undervaluing the helper.
Anon
Idk I come from a background where friends and family help each other out (babysit, dog sit, moving, painting/fixing up a house, etc) for free, with the expectation that the favor will be returned. So to me, it’d be weird to pay a family friend for this.
Anon
If you are agreed to be bartering services, that is IMO different. But there is no agreement for that here.
Anon
I don’t think everything needs to be so tit for tat. Like I watch my cousin’s dog frequently for free but I don’t have pets so they can’t return the favor. But, when I get a dog in the future there’s a mutual, but unspoken, expectation that he’ll dog sit for me
Anon
My aunt and cousin live on the same street and in the same town as my grandmother. Everyone always helps everyone out (rides to doctors, watching grandkids during snow days, cooking and leftovers, etc., etc.). But they’d only do this for family. And it’s a multi-decade course of dealing among them. My mom lives far away and pays for things — yard service, co-pays for meds, etc. Everyone contributes and everyone has benefitted.
You know if your relationship is mutual or one-way, and I feel that kids often are giving a one-way benefit, especially girls.
Anon
To clarify, I’d absolutely expect food/money for food to be left but not payment.
anon
THIS. Using a Rover (which has a host of problems) will likely cost you $60/night or more. Using any kind of professional, bonded and insured company will cost her even more. It’s nice to “help out,” and staying in someone’s home and taking care of two low-key pets certainly isn’t coal mining, but it’s also a responsibility, work, and imposition on her time. I’m assuming that paying a fair rate isn’t going to break OP’s bank, and this money will make a much bigger difference to a high school senior.
I have pet sat for friends before (and vice versa) and we usually exchange dinners or bring over bottles of wine as a thanks. So it’s not a transaction, per se, but there’s that expectation of reciprocity when possible and it’s still nice to thank someone for the thing they’re doing for you. But OP and the sitter aren’t friends or family–sitter is the daughter of OP’s friend–and there’s more of a power imbalance.
Anon
I have some sympathy for this point, but I think this would apply to your friend or your own child more than the friend’s child. If your friend’s child is doing it, it should be paid like a real job. I do agree that I’d rather live in society where people help out their friends and family and don’t expect compensation, just reciprocation when the need arises. This is the way my family and their friends behaved when I was a kid, not sure if it was a regional or social class thing? But I still got paid to babysit and petsit for neighbors we weren’t as close to, though certainly nothing like $50/day- it’s more of a teaching kids to take responsibility thing, even if my parents might have been willing to do it free from time to time.
Anon
As a kid I did it for free or a very nominal/under market rate amount for adult relatives and family friends (so my parents adult friends I knew well or families where the parents and kids were all friends) but if it was a friend of my parents I didn’t know we’ll I’d be paid – but no where near $50/day.
Anon
And things and pay have changed since we were kids.
Anon
Doesn’t pet setting a dog involve at least two walks a day and some potty breaks? Price out a professional dog walker for even one walk a day and you can see how it adds up. It was crazy — day care for my kids wasn’t that much more than when I priced out what two dog walks a day or doggy day care might cost (back when I was in BigLaw; TLDR I decided I should pay off my loans vs get a dog).
Anon
She said they don’t walk, just need to be let out into the yard.
Anon
Like I don’t feel that I need to pay my children for helping out at home. My labor there is certainly unpaid. But when a person outside the home steps up to do something that is typically a paid service? Unless we have decided that we are trading (you watch my kids one day, I watch your kids another day), I pay the typical rate. Otherwise, the close relationship lets people get taken advantage of and can breed resentment and eventually get you off of the “people I help” list. When you need emergency help (and you may), you want to have built up the good will, not diminished it.
Anon
Honest question: if youre stuck at work or something and a friend picks up your kids from school, you would pay them? Unless you’d already specified that you’d pick both sets of kids up the next day or something?
Anon
I don’t think I would hand over cash. I give one friend a ton of hand-me-downs and fancy dresses we’ve outgrown for her daughter and she doesn’t pay me but occasionally treats me to a pedicure or Starbucks cards magically appear.
Anon
This is so different. I want to help my friends when they’re in a pinch, and they want to help me. A once off like this is not the same as asking someone to stay in your house and take care of your dogs for a whole week!
But also I would absolutely offer to bring dinner to my friend or something similar. And if she said no (which she would, as would I), I’d still bring her muffins or flowers or something one day in the future.
Anon
You should have been paid. As a teen I babysat, but for money. I saved the money and it helped offset college. I always worked, and got paid. This isn’t watching the family dog for a while, this is the OP getting a service she’d normally pay for and you pay for that labor. OP recognizes that as she’s asking for rate info. FWIW, I pay $50/day to board my small dog with her day care plus the normal day care cost, so about $100/day total.
Anonymous
Babysitting for neighbors and acquaintances and strangers, absolutely. Babysitting for relatives and close family friends? Eh. I think it’s nice but not required.
Anon
I made the comment and I agree, but that’s not what’s going on here. OP isn’t asking her kid to watch the family dog.
Anon
I similarly was made to babysit for distant family for free when I was a teenager. But I think I should have been paid, and I think this OP is right to want to pay her friend’s daughter.
Not paying her feels like unintentional gender dynamics might be at play because the people doing that unpaid labor of babysitting, pet sitting, taking groceries to the neighbor, etc. are usually teenage girls.
Anonymous
Especially since it seems the equivalent to me of the neighbor’s boy mowing the lawn for you. That’s generally been seen as a first job and I think pet sitting is equivalent.
If a friend is doing it, it’s a favor and I’ll try to repay later. If it’s a friend’s kid, thats them taking on a job and an opportunity for them to learn professional norms, like asking about payment.
Anon
Well then YOU should pet sit for friends and family for free.
Let this teenager get paid.
anon
No–that’s way too low. You’re asking her to feed and walk and pick up poop and make sure the dogs are not covered in ticks or burrs every day for seven days, and she’s giving up plans possibly, over the 4th.
At the very least $30 a day. Boarding two dogs would easily be over a hundred dollars a day.
She’d rather be in her bed than a strange house for seven days. Pay accordingly.
Anon
LMAO!!! As the mom of a teenager I can’t begin to tell you how off-base you are. Our kids’ time is valuable, just like yours is. Just because they are under 18 does not mean they deserve to be paid under the market rate for “helping out.” The teenager in the OP’s situation is not “helping out.” She is providing a service. She should be fairly paid. Let me guess – you’re the person at work who keeps trying to put out lowball salary offers because “people should just be grateful to have a job”? Not any more, toots.
In-House in Houston
Is she spending the night or checking on them throughout the day? I pay $100 a night and I stock the frig (I ask them what they like and then stock up). If she’s not spending the night, I think $20 per visit is good and of course you don’t have to buy groceries for them. My dogs are my kids and so I want the person who watches them to be there most of the time. That’s why I pay well and stock the frig/pantry.
Anon
My high school senior charges $45 a night for this in a medium to high COL city, which is maybe on the low side but not by much. And just no to the people saying that you should not pay her! That’s absurd-a week of house/dog sitting is a major inconvenience.
Anon
For real! I pay the young kids across the street the same rate I pay my regular pet sitters, and frankly they do the best job of anyone cleaning the cats’ litter boxes.
Pay her the market rate.
anonymous
I’m outraged that you would ask such an inane question in light of the court’s decision in Dobbs. Couldn’t you (and your dog-sitter for that matter) be doing something to combat the anti-life attacks on reproductive freedom?
Anon
Wow, this was a really disappointingly low-effort tr0ll attempt. Someone needs to step up their game.
Anon
I don’t see why OP should pay the same rate for a teenager as they would a licensed, bonded professional. If she’s going to pay that rate, why not get…you know…a licensed, bonded professional.
Anon
Sometimes you want to help out a teenager. Sometimes you highly prefer to use someone you know (I know I do!) I can think of many reasons.
Between this question and the psa about kids below, I don’t know who pissed in everyone’s cornflakes this morning, or did the AAM commentariat just wholesale move over here?
Seventh Sister
I pay a bunch for a young college grad to drive my kid to dance class. Is it about the same as a licensed, bonded car service? Yes. Is the young woman a friend’s kid who is having a hard time finding a job in her field because the last two years haven’t exactly been terrific for young people starting out? Yes.
Likewise, I could pay the same (or more) for private music lessons with a “real” teacher at a “real” music school, but I’m paying a performance major at the local college to come over and teach my young teenager.
Neither of these things are “charity,” but it’s only on the Internet that everyone follows the alleged best practices all of the time.
Anony
FWIW – I used to dog/house-sit for my sister’s 2 dogs and she paid me $50/day. It involved 3-4 trips to her house per day, with one being a walk when the dogs were younger. I did not expect food or anything. Sometimes I’d hang out for a few hours. A high school student that lives in her neighborhood does it now and she pays her the same that she paid me.
Anon
I pay my neighbor teen $25 an hour for dog care, which is half what I pay my licensed dog sitter. $50/day to me seems reasonable.
Micromanager
Anyone had luck communicating with a micromanaging boss? I’ve been in my role for about 3 months. Boss was hired shortly after I joined. I have 1 direct report. Boss micromanages me and consequently my report.
Is there an effective way to tell him to back off and hope it sticks? For various reasons I’m committed to staying in this role for at least a year.
Anon
The only thing that helped me was time, during which my boss developed confidence in my judgment. I wasn’t sure he was capable of easing off off the micromanaging, but he has, to a degree where I am very comfortable. It took the better part of a year.
Anon
Following because I am in a similar situation, except I’ve been in my role for six months with no sign of the micro managing easing up. Several members of my team are seeking to transfer because my boss is so awful. I would too, if I could!
Anon
The only thing that kind of worked for me was doing regular check ins so he felt like he knew what was going on with my matters and developed some confidence.
But I was in that job for 3 years and it went from totally unbearable to low key unbearable. His boss (the CEO) consistently gave him feedback that he needed to micromanage his team less, so he knew it was an issue. I know everyone is different, but my experience with the micromanager was that he just wasn’t going to change.
I definitely think you can stick it out for a year, but it’ll mostly be strategies to be ridiculously proactive on reporting and having some mindfulness practice for yourself. I don’t know that there’s much you can say to get someone to stop completely.
Anonymous
In my experience with having micromanaging bosses and also direct reports who micromanaged their direct reports, these are people who have issues with control. You can get them to back down when they realize you are competent to a a degree, but it’s so much a part of their nature that they can’t back off completely.
anon
The best thing you can do with a micromanager is overcommunicate!
Not to ask what to do next or how to do it, but to tell them:
– Based on XYZ, we have moved forward with ABC. We expect to hear back from Fred next week and then will do DEF.
You actually have to get ahead of them.
The next thing you can do is have a frank talk with them. But only you can know whether this will result in any change (unlikely–micromanagers know they’re being this way and still cannot act in a different way) or if it will just make it known that you are chafing under their work style.
Anon
Any recs for favorite sightseeing clothes and accessories? Going to Europe soon and, sigh, COVID weight, so I need to buy new clothes anyways. Also need a crossbody bag! I don’t want to look like a tourist – I’d like to look like the chic east coast professional I think I am ;), but Europe in the summer I feel like has its own dress code.
Cat
Where in Europe? recs for island-hopping in Greece are going to be different than wandering Paris, etc.
In general though, shoes will make the outfit – if you don’t have cute, supportive street sneakers, now is the time to join the club.
Cat
FWIW, bc many people will comment on this I think…. my goal is never to look totally like a local because you will be identifiable as a tourist. You are a tourist! But there’s “clueless ugly American tourist” style and “American who understands they’re in a different culture and wants to join the vibe” style, so I heartily co-sign effort to be in the latter group :)
Anon
If I dress differently and don’t plaster a smile on my face constantly, I find I am often mistaken for a tourist from a different part of Europe at least!
Anon
I am smiley, so American Tourist it is :)
Anon
I’m betting that being naturally smiley is different from the forced smile I associate with standing out as American in a crowd? I was a bit sad, the last time I traveled, that it took me a few days to let myself stop that forced mouth smile that never reaches the eyes.
But I certainly wouldn’t mind being spotted as American just for being openly happy or unguardedly friendly!
Anon
Thanks! France and Germany – city touring. Sadly no island hopping this trip ;)
And cute street sneakers I do not have…
Cat
You might need to order a bunch to try on to get the right fit for your foot, but think Vejas with no-show socks – they go with everything incl. lightweight day dresses.
Personally I found casual dresses the most versatile on my most recent experience (Italy). Shorts can be too casual or inappropriate if you’re visiting religious s-tes, jeans are too hot for mid-summer, and I always feel more polished in a dress than in a skirt + top where the skirt would be twisting its way around my hips!
European women who could pull off the look better than I could were also wearing cropped wide legged flowy pants with their sneaks. However, that look on me = human Corgi, so I admired from afar.
Anonymous
This. European women rarely wear shorts at all let alone in the city. Skirts, dresses or flowy linen pants/capris.
Anonymous
Buy them. They are the number one thing you need.
Anonymous
I was just in Paris and saw the Nike Air Force 1 sneaker absolutely everywhere.
London (formerly NY) CPA
Veja and Adidas Stan Smith sneakers are ubiquitous. If you dont like them specifically, anything along the same line looks-wise would easily blend in. Also I just got some Ara sandals (German brand, sold in the US), and they’re SO comfortable while not being completely fugly.
I think any kind of small classic unbranded leather bag would be totally fine. I’d steer away from anything too logo-heavy.
Cat
Slight threadjack – which brand do you think suits a narrower heel and slightly wide toe box foot shape? My usual pain point is rubbing on the outside of my little toe.
Anon
Following!
anon
Vejas, 100%. I find Stan Smiths wider overall. I have narrow feet, with like medium width toes if that makes sense? And Vejas fit SO MUCH BETTER than any other sneakers I’ve tried.
I’d also try Air Force 1s – a bit narrower overall, but very comfy and a similar-ish look.
I love my Golden Goose sneakers as well, but the wide heel area has my foot slipping around costantly and I wind up with blisters.
London (formerly NY) CPA
I have wide feet (like actually need wide width shoes, not just kind of wide) and my Vejas are fine width-wise. You shouldnt have issues with rubbing.
Anonymous
I have narrow heels. I have to put Superfeet in my Vejas to keep them from falling off, and they are too stiff to be comfortable for a lot of walking. My P448s fit well and are comfortable without inserts.
Anonymous Canadian
There is a nice FB group called “Travel Fashion Girls” where there are any number of posts by women of all ages/sizes. It’s kind of a sweet community. You might get some good ideas there!
Anon
I was in Paris in May and had the same goal of being a cool tourist, not like regular tourists ;)
It was unseasonably hot when I was there and it seemed as if every French woman was wearing a loose-fitting floral dress or skirt with worn-in white sneakers. Surprisingly formal dresses were paired with sneakers. Lots of structured cross-body bags as well.
Dresses/skirts examples: https://www.target.com/p/women-s-short-sleeve-cut-out-dress-a-new-day/-/A-84918210
https://www.sezane.com/us/product/victoria-dress/sunflowers#size-2
https://amourvert.com/products/wrapped-blaze-skirt-french-jardin-black?variant=41269146222783
I’d also look at Mango, & Other Stories.
Sneakers: saw lots of Nike Air Force Ones, Reebok Club C 85, Adidas Stan Smiths, Vejas. Interestingly, none were pristine bright white, all were worn in and kind of dirty looking.
Bags: I am not good at spotting specific bags but I saw some like the Polene bags (https://eng.polene-paris.com/products/numero-un-nano-trio-camel-graine) you can also go to the Polene showroom in Paris. Or something structured and simple like this https://www.nordstrom.com/s/frame-le-signature-mini-leather-crossbody-bag/5946192?origin=category-personalizedsort&breadcrumb=Home%2FWomen%2FHandbags%2FCrossbody%20Bags&color=650
That said, there’s plenty of frumpy people around too, so don’t worry too much about sticking out if you’re not impeccably dressed every day!
Anon
Yup, this is what all the European tourists are wearing in downtown Manhattan this summer.
Anon
Longer comment in mod with some ideas, but the “uniform” in Paris seems to be a loose floral dress with white sneakers.
Anonymous
Avoid shorts and athletic wear like leggings and legging capris. Avoid pink unless it’s like a hot pink as a fashion choice.
We visit DH’s family in Germany every summer and my uniform is comfortable leather sandals, knee length flowy skirts with a tank with wide straps or a midi dress with low profile city sneakers (not running shoes).
Separate athletic type clothes for hiking excursions.
anon
Linen (alllll the linen) – dresses and pants, or even a pair of tailored linen shorts (think Aritzia 5″ inseam shorts) with sneakers (Stan Smiths or Vejas) and you’re all set.
Anon
+1 for linen everything. We have the worst heatwave ever (subjective assessment) and I refuse to wear anything that is not pure linen or linen/cotton blend. I have several linen dresses, linen jumpsuits, wide pants or wide cropped pants, thin cotton/linen shirts/t-shirts and combine with nice sandals or slip-on shoes (I would die in sneakers, but depends on location). I like Massimo Dutti or small local brands for clothes; regarding shoes, I am a team ECCO shoes forever. We are not big on wearing athletic wear outside of workout/outdoor places. I do see nice shorts or jeans shorts (especially in this scorching heat). Bring a nice fan, have it in your handbag at all times :)
Anon
Old Navy has cute linen pants now – a closet cropped style and a high-waisted one with a narrower leg
anon
On the bag front, try the lululemon cross body. Is it clearly American? Yes. Is it the best travel/city walking bag ever? Also yes.
Anonymous
Something like this dress with veja sneakers
https://athleta.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=845938012&cid=89745&pcid=89745&vid=1&nav=hamnav%3ADresses%20%26%20Rompers%3ACATEGORIES%3AAll%20Dresses%20%26%20Rompers&cpos=36&cexp=2702&kcid=CategoryIDs%3D89745&ctype=Listing&cpid=res22062908263830523129473#pdp-page-content
anonypotamus
I feel like a broken record about these, but the Cole Haan Grand Crosscourt sneakers are my go-to white sneaker. Lightweight, supportive, so comfortable, super easy to wipe down if they get dirty, and they go with literally everything. (Link posted after to avoid mod). They run about a half size big – I am normally a 8.5 in almost all sneakers, and take an 8 in them. I have had them for so long that I have a range of broken-in-ness: from beat up ones good only for yardwork now to a brand new pair I haven’t taken out of the box yet!
anonypotamus
These are this year’s current version, but if you have a Cole Haan outlet near you, they will usually have prior seasons’ as well: https://www.colehaan.com/grand-crosscourt-sneaker-optic-white-leather/W08780.html
Woof
I love Eddie Guide Pro pants for travel, and shorts too, but not for Europe. The guide pro pants don’t stretch out, come in many colors, dry overnight after a wash in the sink, and look like trim normal pants. Well, there is a logo, but I ignore it. Looking like a chic tourtist is ok by me–no Hawaiian shirts, bright floral prints–neutrals, scarves, good shoes, etc. A pop of color in the cross body bag–I like nylon Baggelini but they are not the most chic or edgy. Good luck!
anon
Tips for easier phone calls to representatives:
1. Be nice to the staffer picking up the phone! As was mentioned yesterday, no yelling, cursing or vitrol. I’ve dropped a well placed F bomb before, but not AT any person in particular, so be careful with that. Thank them for their time on the phone with you; generally be polite
2. Ask the staffer what information you need to give them in order to get your call logged correctly. This info may include your city, zip code, email address, and first and last name.
3. If you leave a voicemail be sure and leave all the requested information or they may not be able to log your call correctly. From my experience the voicemail instructions will tell you want personal information to leave (see 2).
4. Save your representative’ DC office phone number and a state side office phone number to your phone contacts. If you cant get through or get disconnected you have a different location to call at your fingertips. This saves so much time and mental energy. At one point the voicemail for my representative was disconnected at his DC office, but I could call a local office and at least leave a voicemail. Another time the DC office voicemail just stopped recording before i had a chance to complete my personal info that I begin my message with. Don’t let the small road blocks, whether purposely set or not, deter you.
5. If you don’t have a script, you can start with your name, personal information, state simply that you disagree with X, you support Y, and a brief description on why and ask them to take action on Y or Z. End with a thank to whoever is collecting the information and let them know if you want a call or email back or not. That’s the crux of it in my opinion.
6. If you have the time, follow up with an email. Or conversely if you don’t have the time to call, send an email. I heard emails aren’t as effective, but if that’s your only option, use it. I always go to the rep’s website and email them directly from their contact page.
Any former staffers or regular rep callers out there who can share more info on what makes a good call to your rep? I know scripts are the easiest to read from for those calling, but we are in unscripted territory these days it seems. Please add your own tips from your experience, I think this information could help reduce the friction of calling your rep.
Anon
Former staffer here. In our office at least, when we were in the middle of hot topics like this, what you said didn’t matter – we simply tallied the number of for and against calls we received each day and rolled them up to the legislative director at the end of each day. As in, we each had a literal notepad in front of our phone with for and against columns and marked down a tally – that simple. You didn’t need to be articulate or have some eloquent story to share because all we were ultimately telling the boss was the total number of calls and where they stood. If you want to tell a heartfelt story, email is the way to go.
anon
Yep, this. It’s a tally mark – that’s it.
Would also add, as a former staffer – we know alllll the scripts circulating around, and form emails like that are definitely not the ones we’d pull to show the member. At least in our office, we’d typically pull a sample of emails/letters each week for the member to look at personally, and if it’s a form email, we’re not pulling it.
Anon
Can confirm this was the practice in my former office as well. We tallied for and against for a daily report to the LD. Sometimes the member would ask for mid-day updates on calls. Form letters and scripts were very obvious, we’d usually know 5 seconds in what the rest of the message would be and already marked your support down.
Anonymous
Don’t bother calling anyone other than your actual representative. We only logged correspondence from our constituents. We would usually forward on or redirect those who weren’t to the appropriate office, but no guarantees.
Anon
I see a lot of love here for the Kia Telliride. Does anyone have the Carnival (minivan)?
Anon
PSA — per Sue Sartor e-mail I got, they are having a Red White and Blue sale. Having finally pull the trigger, and it being 2022 so no rules at the office other than to be clothed, I am glad I did. Plotting a second purchase (sadly, goal piece is not on sale this time). I think the insta / FB sites for her may have links (is not identical to the sale section on the website).
anon
Hi, has anyone worked with exec search firm Egon Zehnder? Experience?
Anon
A few conversations on the moms page made me want to post on here: hi friends, if you happen to be going on a big family/group vacation this summer and are going with somebody who has children (particularly young children), please consider hanging out with the kiddos for even 30 minutes to give their parents a little bit of ‘vacation’ for themselves.
Now, I’m not at all saying that you should be watching other people’s kids for all of your vacation. We absolutely know, we chose to have our families and bring them and they’re our responsibility, not anyone else’s. But please also know that for many of us, we were told that ‘oh, it’ll be great to go on this vacation! There will be so many hands to help with the kids.’ yet what actually happens is that none of those hands want to help.
We all have or know those crummy relatives who dump their kids and just assume that other people will watch them. I also don’t mean that, I think they stink too. What I mean is – maybe bring your 5 year old niece out for ice cream and let her spend some one on one time with her super cool aunt. Consider sitting on a couch watching Elmo and letting the parents go drink their coffee outside together. For many of us, we have had zero village for the past couple years and it’s been really, really hard.
Also, I know that I always appreciated one on one adult time with people who weren’t my parents. Consider how amazing the memories that these kids will have of you if you bring the 11 year olds to the coffee shop and treat them like an adult. I know I am too polite to actually ask people to do this in real life so I’m throwing it out there in case it inspires you.
Cb
Second this from the outdoor sofa with my book and cup of tea, while my dad watches ninjago with my kid…
Anon
That’s what grandparents often do, unasked. But I don’t think that OP is talking about grandparents or even relatives.
FWIW, if the kids are like <2, I wouldn't assume a random childless adult knows what to do. If the kid is 5 and everyone is on site, how closely do they even need to be watched? I go upstairs alone without my 5YO within arm's reach. Water safety with young non-swimming kids? I wouldn't burden anyone with that — stakes are too high.
Anonymous
OP literally referenced family vacations. There are plenty of grandparents who don’t do this and who expect parents to both be able to take care of young children near water or at fancy restaurants and still have engaging conversations without interruptions at the same time. They will happily plan next year’s vacation announcing how ‘that holiday together was such a nice break for you when we watched the kids and we should do it again’.
Anonymous
So you don’t vacation with these grandparents until the kids are older.
anonshmanon
oh yeah, I still roll my eyes at FIL, who refused to even hold my new adorable niece, constantly commented on the fact that diaper stuff is so terrible to deal with, and brazenly declared that generally, he is only interested in interacting with kids in adorable toddler stage, and then later when they are young adults. He was pressuring us for kids at the time.
Anon
She also said “group vacations,” which IMO isn’t family.
Anonymous
Yes but I was responding to the poster who said ” But I don’t think that OP is talking about grandparents or even relatives. ” so it was already that the poster knew OP had referenced friends.
Anon
I get wanting that and yet I don’t think it is a fair expectation to have of others on their vacation.
Anon
Absolutely, it’s not an expectation. It’s a suggestion or idea.
Most of us won’t ask because we don’t have it as an expectation.
Anon
I think that hope is not a strategy.
Anonymous
I’m only going on vacation with kids I have a relationship with or want to build one with (my niblings, my cousins’ kids, my close friends’ kids) in which case I think it’s a fair to think other adults would take the kids for an hour or so to play, go to the beach, etc. Not full on childcare (putting kids to bed or something) but just hanging out and playing with the kids, absolutely.
startup lawyer
Yea I would think this is OP’s baseline assumption here. I get that people don’t want to babysit but some of these comments are kind of ridiculous. if you were truly find the idea of getting ice cream with a 5 yo that burdensome then why would you ever agree to go on vacation with people with kids?
Anon
OP Here: yes! The baseline assumption is that you have agreed to a group vacation with somebody with children and the children are attending.
Again, totally cool if this isn’t for you. It was a gift idea.
Anon
Yeah, exactly.
Amy
I completely sympathize with your yearning for adults in your children’s lives who would do this and (possibly) disappointment that your relatives aren’t doing this.
But, gently, are there really any adults who are interested in and willing to do this who aren’t already doing it? They don’t need a written invitation. They know. They’ve seen TV shows with cool aunts. They have social media connections who post the cute activities they do with their nieces/nephews/grandkids.
The sad truth is, they don’t care and they don’t really want to do it. It’s not personal, and certainly nothing to do with your kid. They’re just not that interested. Much like the guy who never called, rather than wasting time and energy wishing things were different, you’ll be much happier if you accept that they aren’t and move on accordingly.
Cat
That’s one way to view it. The other way is that adults who see your kid only occasionally, and don’t have kids themselves, don’t really know how to talk to kids that well, and are worried they’ll make the kid feel uncomfortable – like when the aunt I really didn’t like always wanted to give me giant wet lipsticky kisses. Like, let the kid take the lead on chatting with you but otherwise don’t push the relationship.
OP, if you want to encourage this behavior, maybe just talk quietly to people one on one. “Sophia loves puzzles, and I think she’d love working on one with you” etc.
anon
Yeah, I would second this. As someone who doesn’t have kids, and whos friends are in the baby stage, not the toddler/young child stage, I have 0 clue how to talk to kids. Just give me some guidance – would love to take them for ice cream, but I quite literally could not tell you the age at which kids can start eating ice cream! No clue! I barely knew what a dock-a-tot was a year ago, much less that babies slept in them.
Anonymous
I also don’t know how to talk to kids, so I ask their parents and then I play with them. It’s not rocket science and also, the only way to get better is to just start talking to them
Anon
In my experience, kids love to be talked to like they’re adults, and it’s often adults who don’t have kids who speak to them this way. It makes the kid feel very grown up and included, and that adult quickly becomes their favorite adult.
Anon
+1 and also? I’m already a cool aunt to my actual niblings who I have an actual lifelong relationship with. Other kids are just random and I don’t feel like wasting my vacation time babysitting them.
Anonymous
When did we all become such a**holes? No one is saying you should babysit anyone’s kids. But presumably you are on vacation with people you like though and maybe it would be nice to offer to watch their kid for 20 min here or there. You don’t have to! It’s just an idea of how to be a nice person. No different from volunteering to do the dishes and maybe you even have a fun time doing it.
Anonymous
Presumably if you’re on vacation with these kids, you’re close with their parents, so it’s be natural for you to have some sort of relationship with these kids.
I don’t get the impression that OP is looking for free babysitting, just that it’d be nice for other adults to play with the kids for a little bit.
Anon
Nobody is being an ahole. I think the folks OP went on vacation with had very different expectations than she did and that’s fine. Doesn’t make somebody a jerk.
Anonymous
To Anon@11:12 from Anonymous@10:53 — ahole comment directed at “Other kids are just random and I don’t feel like wasting my vacation time babysitting them.”
Maybe it is the lack of nuance in an online forum, but it feels like people can’t tell the difference between should and could anymore. This comment is just one example but there is so much general “this is a nice thing to do” or “here’s a thought about something I wish had been different” that turns into “why should I do that” or “you’re so entitled!”
startup lawyer
Why are you on vacation with kids who are “just random.” serious question
Amy
So you’re saying that for the adults you’re describing, OP’s post is the permission they need to go ahead and bond with those kids, when they’d otherwise be too shy/nervous to do so? Ok, if that’s the case, then great! OP’s mission is accomplished and I stand correct.
Cat
Um no, I am saying OP should use her words with the people she is vacationing with to suggest some appropriate and fun low key bonding time. I would 100% not take OPs post as general permission for all kids…
Anon
Honestly what about just getting a babysitter a few times? Every vacation spot I’ve been to has had a way to find local care. Why put this on someone else? I have zero desire to watch anyone’s kids but I’d happily chip in for a sitter.
Anon
Thank you for this, but I will say that it is both a much more complicated Endeavour than you are describing (how is the person screened, you need to introduce a new person to your child) and doesn’t achieve the goal of having your kid build relationships that I would like them to have.
Again, I’m not asking for a night of babysitting so I can go to dinner. Literally 15 minutes with a popsicle on the deck chatting with them would be cool.
Anon
I think your bonding expectations are unrealistic, frankly. Bonding isn’t going to be a goal for the kids or an adult in the absence of a continuing relationship. If you want your kids to have that, and you don’t have siblings who are filling the aunt/uncle role, I’d suggest being explicit with a friend about your desires and cultivate that outside of a vacation experience first. 15 minutes on the porch with a popsicle isn’t going to achieve your goal for anyone.
On the babysitting, I’ve arranged this for every family vacation. Ask around, ask here, it’s not that hard to find someone for a few hours to watch the kids while you go have dinner.
Anonymous
I agree with a lot of this but I disagree that those small moments don’t build a relationship. My kids absolutely talk about that time they beat their uncle at go fish or when they ate popsicles with their aunt and took turns listing funny made up popsicles flavours.
The bricks of any relationship, kid or adult, are the small moments that you build into a solid wall.
Anon
I think this poster’s point is that lots of small moments make the relationship. One 15 min popsicle moment and then years of not seeing each other aren’t interactions that will form a lasting bond.
Anonymous
Literally hand the kid a popsicle and ask the adult if they are comfortable watching the kid for 15 minutes while you do something. Why is that harder than urging internet strangers to anticipate your specific need and desires to other strangers? I’m a parent and I promise this is not universal.
And yes get a babysitter. My parents always brought a “nanny” on family trips. 90% of the time she wasn’t alone with us but she was an extra set of eyes and hands and it allowed my parents to go out to dinner once or twice.
Anon
Yeah, this. OP is pissed at her relatives and lecturing everybody else about it here because she didn’t use her words.
Bonnie Kate
That first sentence is the solution. As a childfree adult, please just do that first sentence. So much easier than us trying to guess or step in, and it actually gets you what you want.
Anon
“Yeah, this. OP is pissed at her relatives and lecturing everybody else about it here because she didn’t use her words.”
This is my take on it too. For the record, I have a kid and have gone on group vacations with other people. I can totally respect wanting/needing a little bit of a break when you’re on a family vacation, but for the OP – gently, you have to create these situations yourself, and if you don’t do that you can’t sit and silently fume that no one is recognizing your need for a spare moment to yourself and why aren’t these people getting with the program? You absolutely do have to use your words. On one trip I was on, my friend just asked me – hey, is it possible for you to take the kids to the playground so I can read for a little bit? I was totally fine with that; took all the kids to the playground and had a great time. Later in the trip she took my son with her and her kids to go through the drivethrough at McDonald’s and they ate nuggets and sang songs in the car. Great memories for the kids; we each got some kid-free time. But it has to be created. You cannot sit there and try to send psychic signals to people to get them to do what you want them to do, and then get mad they were not psychic and didn’t hear them.
I also don’t think it’s fair to ask kid-free people to spend time with kids. A lot of people who didn’t have kids didn’t have kids because they don’t really like kids. Your need to get some time to yourself shouldn’t supersede their discomfort with having to take care of children. Reasonable expectations go a long way toward creating a harmonious life, just FYI.
Anon
I agree with 1:29 about creating these situations.
But I don’t think we should be okay with kid-free people not spending time with kids because they don’t like kids. Is it just okay to feel that way that about any other category of people that exists? “I just don’t like [kind of people]; they make me uncomfortable, so it’s unfair to me to be asked to be around them”? That sounds like some reddit nonsense to me.
Anon
“But I don’t think we should be okay with kid-free people not spending time with kids because they don’t like kids. Is it just okay to feel that way that about any other category of people that exists? “I just don’t like [kind of people]; they make me uncomfortable, so it’s unfair to me to be asked to be around them”? That sounds like some reddit nonsense to me.”
So the better solution, in your view, is to have an adult who doesn’t like kids spend time with kids, even though that situation is not likely to be memorable-in-a-positive-way for either the adult or the children? Kids can pick up on it when people don’t like them, or don’t like kids in general. I don’t want my kid to have to spend time around someone who hates kids, the same way I don’t want my gay friends to have to suffer through being around people who hate gay people. I don’t think making people suffer is the right choice, ever. And for some people who are really, genuinely uncomfortable around kids, yes – it is more than a minor inconvenience, to have to spend time with children.
Anon
I want to be the cool auntie to my friends’ kids and I am someone who tries to do this! But I also let the kids do what they want to do and right now, they do not think this auntie is as cool as one of the other aunties and frankly, it feels awful. I try not to take it personally bc I know what/who kids think is cool changes on a dime, but remember OP that just because you want your kid to have bonding time with someone doesn’t mean the kid wants that and sometimes it really sucks for to be rejected by a kid you want to form a relationship with!!
Anon
Do you always have gum? How about some surprise stickers? Not that you should have to bribe your friends’ kids, but in my experience, some Trident goes a long way.
Anon
The kids in my friend group are too young for gum. And I don’t give them things without permission. Being the one the kid wants to hang out with bc of stuff is not my jam anyway. I know it’s a phase but my point was that sometimes the kid I would love to hang with doesn’t want to hang out with me in the first place!
Anon
It may be cool but it’s not their responsibility. It’s their vacation too. I understand that parents are exhausted and want a break but so does everyone. It was your choice to have kids and this is part of having kids. This is exactly why I don’t have any. I watch my nieces and nephews for my siblings because I want to help them but it’s not my responsibility and it’s not your family members responsibility either. The whole it take a village thing works for people who have the money to shell out for a sitter or family members who don’t work and are healthy enough to take care of kids. Otherwise, that’s ideal but certainly not reality. Again, I don’t have kids for a reason.
Anonymous
Babysitters are not a substitute for a relationship between an aunt/uncle and their nieces/nephews.
I see what OP is trying to get at – I have 3 kids and vacation each year with my sister’s family (2 kids) for a week and DH’s brother’s family (3 kids) for a week because neither family is local to us. There’s a stark difference between how the families on each side work. DH’s brother makes an effort to grab moments of one on one time with our kids even though they have kids of their own – a game of ‘go fish’ or asking them if they want to help him cook. It’s tricky to manage one on one excursions with so many kids but I see the effort to grab those small moments of one on one time. On the other hand, my sister and her husband are happy to leave their kids with us and go out for dinner/concerts. I love the time with my niece and nephew (and my kids love sleepovers with their cousins) but I know my kids can tell that my sister and BIL are not really interested in spending time with them. It’s tough having to field questions from my kids about why their aunt and uncle don’t want to be with them because they see the difference in how DH’s family treats them.
OP – I’m just at a place where I realize that my kids will have a much closer relationship with their cousins/aunts/uncles on DH’s side than mine. It’s not what I had hoped for as my sister and I were quite close growing up but people are who they are and for some, close relationships with nieces/nephews are not a priority. You have to spend time with people to build relationships and they just don’t.
On your point about the parents having a ‘break’ while on vacation – you just have to find a babysitter at your home location and shell out the extra $$ there. I promise it does get easier when they are older and can occupy themselves with their cousins for an hour without an adult directly supervising.
Anon
She’s not talking about aunts and uncles though, or at least that isn’t clear. If so, that’s a family issue she has and she needs to figure out why hats not naturally happening. Sounds like she’s suggesting friends bond with her kids, which is kinda weird.
Anonymous
She literally said ‘family/group vacations’? Pretty sure aunts/uncles are family. I’ve rarely heard of childless friends going on group vacations with people with young kids – those are two very different sets of schedules and activities. Extended family vacations are much more common.
Anon
What’s wrong with friends bonding with your kids? My now adult daughter has three “aunts” that are friends of mine, who are better to her than her actual aunts. They all jumped at the chance to have a small amount of involvement in her life as they didn’t have kids of their own. They are always rooting for her and she has gone to them for advice without looping me in, which is totally fine.
I did ask one of them to take my daughter for a weekend once. That friend runs a small business an a city 45 minutes away from my house and Friend was dreading that she had to go in and organize the office after a really busy period. I offered up my then young teen daughter to help (there is nothing that kid loves more than organizing) but I said that daughter would have to spend the night at friend’s house. Both enthusiastically agreed and ever since then they’ve really had their own friendship that is separate from my friendship with Friend. It’s really lovely.
Anon
Anon 11:11 – I am childless and we go on vacations with my friends and their kids every year. Hardly is it unheard of. I would never see my friends if I didn’t do things with their kids present!
Anonymous
Gently, you need to use your words with the people in your real life rather than post a long “psa” about how other people should anticipate this and solicit alone time with other peoples’ kids. I’m also a parent and have no problem asking family members whom I trust to help with the kids. I also give them an easy “out” and volunteer to reciprocate. I don’t ask everyone in the family to do this and there is a reason for that.
Anon
Yup. This comment wasn’t solely based on my experiences, it was something that came out of reading many peoples laments that they were talked into a family beach house because ‘everybody will be there to help’.
Fwiw, I know that the grandparents will watch the kids for about an hour, my sister and her husband (who my kids deeply adore) will take them out for ice cream about once a summer, and that’s it. I say ‘thank you so much’ and watch many dogs and plants when they’re away.
Bonnie Kate
Presumably they ask you to watch the many dogs and plants when they’re away? So do you actually ask them to watch your kids sometimes?
I’m not being snarky – my experience is that a couple of the wonderful millennial mothers in my life hate to ask for people to help with the kids. I’m childfree by choice and am close with six kids in my life. I am close with my best friend who has two kids who hates to ask people to watch her kids/shuffle them, even when it would be so helpful for her to have someone take them for an hour while she’s shuffling around practice schedules, and there are four of us who would happily do this and wouldn’t feel imposed upon at all to be asked. We have to basically tell her we’re doing the things. Same thing goes for my sister and her two kids – she very rarely, if ever, asks me to watch the kids, although she does have my parents very close.
But I’m not a mind reader and I have a lot of stuff going on; I’m not monitoring my sis and best friends lives to try and figure out when I can best make them give me the kids. It would be so, so helpful if they could just be like – hey this is a crazy weekend, any chance you could take Zoe for the evening or an hour while I do this?
Interesting thought – You know who doesn’t have a problem asking me for help when he works late? Our friend who is a single dad. I’ve picked that kid up countless times and hung out; it’s not a problem.
Anon
That’s lovely! OP here.
As a note, no. I do not ask for the help of others unless it is offered (this would include a general offer I take them up on) as I see the sentiment echoed here that it’s not other peoples job to care for my kids unless I am hiring them to or they are offering.
I am very careful and aware that nobody has a responsibility to be anything to my children beyond what they would like to be.
Again, this is a suggestion of something nice to do if you are at a beach house with your family for the 4th. Not being mandated into 24/7 sitter duty.
anon
Millenial moms don’t ask for help because of the attitude many people have toward being asked of that kind of help which is exhibited by the vitriol on this thread.
Anonymous
Yeah, are you the one who was griping about this on the moms’ page about this? If so, your problem is your husband, not your relatives. Get him to do his share.
Anon
That’s what I thought too? Wasn’t husband doing no childcare or was that a different poster?
Anonymous
Yup. The husband checked out and left her to do all the work.
Anon
Oof. We went on a group trip once where one of the husbands decided to be on his own program (his response to anything having to do with trying to handle meals or activities, or take care of the kids was “I’m on vacation” – like the rest of us weren’t), and then he started trying to get the other husbands to stop doing childcare or helping out with meals also. That was the first and last group trip with that family and the guy’s wife ended up divorcing him a few years later. People like that are THE WORST.
Anon
It was a different poster. OP has said that multiple times.
Emma
Just a note than when I tried to this with my former BIL and SIL, as a responsible 25-year with a lot of experience as a babysitter and camp counsellor, they looked completely horrified and said they couldn’t possibly leave the kids alone with me because “kids are a big responsibility”. They might of meant well, but it was pretty offensive to suggest that I couldn’t possibly watch a 4 and 6 year-old (who I knew well and had no special needs or behavioral issues) at the playground for an hour while they got a drink at the hotel bar a few feet away. So, some people may want to spend time with your kids/help out but not dare to ask because some parents really don’t like it. If a relative said “hey would you mind watching X and Y for 30 minutes while I drink my coffee in peace with DH?” I would absolutely say yes, assuming the person isn’t abusing that privilege.
Anon
Right? And you can’t take the kid somewhere w/o a car seat, so there’s that also.
Anon
Thank you – yeah, there are those parents (who I totally don’t get either.)
Seventh Sister
I don’t understand those parents either, though I’ve come to assume they have some kind of serious anxiety situation. I have my own kids and my response to that kind of offer would have 100% been, “OK great, see you later!” As someone who grew up going to a church with a bunch of kids and making $ babysitting, it was a big shock to me when I had my own kids that some other parents had essentially zero experience with children outside of their own.
roxie
yeah, the trend of parents – especially moms – to martyr themselves at the altar of motherhood is a big part of the problem OP is missing here.
Anonymous
It seems like there is an expectation of free childcare and assistance from female family members and not male family members in many families. There might be a concern that watching the child for an hour leads to an expectation of watching the child everyday. I also think the willingness to babysit highly depends on the behavior of the child.
Anon
YAAAAAS
Anonymous
So much this.
Also, I am child free by choice. And I can’t tell you how many holidays and vacations I feel exhausted after because I’ve spent the whole time having to be babysitter. Guess what–if your family and friends aren’t volunteering, it’s because they may want to enjoy coffee on THEIR vacation, too. Rotate with your husband. They are your kids, your responsibility.
Anon
This. I didn’t have kids so I could enjoy my life, not so I could give you a break with yours.
Anon
OMG this is so grinchy. Really, you can’t spare 1/2 hour to help out someone who is presumably your good friend or family member?
Anonymous
Hope you’ll never be sick and need me to drop off food or drive you to the doctor then!
Anon
I don’t know why people are screeching at you about your response here; this is my baseline assumption when people don’t have kids – they didn’t have them because they don’t want to take care of them (which is completely fine) and so I shouldn’t ask them to take care of my kid. I completely agree there seems to be a societal expectation that all women love kids and love taking care of kids and that even a woman who has chosen not to have kids wants to be the “fun auntie.” Totally untrue. I am always grateful when my friends have pitched in to help me out with my kid but I do not expect that from them, nor do I get resentful when they don’t offer.
Anonymous
I have an older kid of my own, and somehow I always get everyone else’s tiny kids dumped on me. So any family gathering is basically 100% babysitting for me. I don’t even get to have fun with my own kid, much less relax. And I usually end up sick from baby snot and drool. No way am I going on a vacation with the extended family.
Shelle
Another person here who is child free by choice. I read this comment and thought: I need to avoid vacationing with family members and friends who have kids bc I don’t want to get roped into this! Especially as a woman who often hears “you’re so X, you’d be a great mom!” Very thankful for the cool aunts and uncles who actually like to do this.
Anonymous
But like why would you vacation with people you don’t want to spend time with? Of course avoid vacations with people with kids if you don’t want to be around kids.
Anon
Bc if you are the single/childless one and you refuse to be around your friends’ kids you never see your friends!!
Anonymous
You can spend time with kids and even enjoy being with them in a group without being solely responsible for them alone.
Anon
100%!!!!!
Anonymous
Well said.
Anon
I’m surprised because my kids had a lot of ‘uncles’ (family and friends) who like to scoop the kids up on vacations to roughhouse, swim, etc. They are the ones to give me a break for 30 minutes because they enjoy the physical stuff.
anon for this
Definitely depends on the kid. I just had a vacation where the parents brought along their toddler, who was the only kid on the trip (poor kid), and the kid didn’t want anything to do with anybody who wasn’t his mom (including his dad). I wasn’t going to insert myself in that situation.
Anon
I don’t know what you mean by “poor kid.” My only child loves multi-generational travel with her grandparents and aunts and uncles. Sure, it depends somewhat on family dynamics, but isn’t inherently bad for a child to be the only kid on a trip.
Anonymous
Exactly. My SIL always dumps her terror of a 4-year-old on me. Guess what, sis? I really do not like having to argue with your child about why he really needs to put his clothes back on after he has ripped them all off in public. That is your job as the parent. And why don’t you ever dump this child on your brother?
Anon
Honestly I think you need to just say this to your siblings/parents/cousins. Aiming this at strangers on the internet isn’t going to get you the break you want. Talk about expectations before you go on vacation with your family.
Anon
+1
Anon
Nice idea, it totally benefits you and your kids, but what what do you to to reciprocate? Are you looking for opportunities to do something for them to make their vacation better, or just opportunities to improve yours?
Amy
I think in OP’s mind, babysitting, er, “bonding with” her children would be a treat for the adult in question too, so there should be nothing to reciprocate!
Anonymous
JFC, not everything is transactional. Seeing my friend play with my kid for 20 mins while I take a shower isn’t babysitting. But also, I don’t really want ti go on vacation with friends who have no interest in spending any time with my kids.
Anon
Then don’t. Seriously, that is the solution. Because no matter how awesome you think your kids are, not everyone likes kids or wants to entertain your kids for “20 minutes while you take a shower.” YOU had the kids; YOU take responsibility for them. I say this as a mother who does not have much family but does have a large group of friends I went on trips with when my son was little. We would pitch in and help each other out with each others’ kids but I never went into the trips having that expectation – especially of my friends who (at that point in time) didn’t have kids themselves. I get that parenting young children is exhausting but – we should all have known that job was dangerous when we took it. Expecting other people to pick up the slack when we’re tired (especially without being directly asked to do that) is probably a recipe for disappointment.
Anon
i don’t think OP is referring to random adults on a trip with her kid. she is referring to the scenarios where people (friends, family, etc.) say ‘let’s go away together and we know it’s a lot with your kid and we’ll help’…and then don’t help at all. another way of viewing it – don’t make empty promises that you’ll help with other people’s kids and then don’t follow through.
Anon
Yeah, no. The problem OP is encountering, as she has posted before, is not when people offered and then backed out. She had expectations of childcare, the folks she was vacationing with did not have expectations of providing it.
Anonymous
If that’s what happened, OP should have gotten her husband to speak to his parents about it, assuming she is the one from the moms’ page. And she also should have gotten him to do his part.
Anon
Op here! I’ve never had this experience nor posted about it.
Actually, my sister openly told my 6 year old ‘that sounds absolutely awful, I wouldn’t waste my vacation like that’ when he excitedly invited her to an upcoming vacation. (FWIW, he was heartbroken because he idolizes her, but again, not her obligation to be anything to my son.)
This was a gift idea should one be interested. My sister is someone who is not, so I do not expect it from her.
Anon
OP, I’m sorry your sister said that, that’s horrible. She doesn’t have to vacation with you if she doesn’t want to, but what a cruel thing to say to a child who was excited about inviting her someplace.
Anonymous
+1000000
Anonymous
I don’t have kids (or nieces/nephews) yet but for me, building a relationship with my cousin’s kid is enough. I want to be the fun older cousin/aunt and have fun with these kids. When I do have kids- I’d expect my cousins and their kids to want to do the same. Obviously that’s not everyone’s cup of tea.
Not everything in life, especially with family and close friends, has to be transactional. I’m happy to take a few 5 year olds to the playground for 45 mins while their parents grab a drink.
Anonymous
One would hope that opportunity for the aunt/uncle would be seen as the chance to spend time with their niece/nephew but clearly that isn’t universally valued.
Anonymous
+1
Building a relationship with people I love’s kids is enough for me: whether they’re niblings, cousins, cousins’ kids, friends’ kids. Relationships are built over time and I’m happy to take a 5 year old out to ice cream and give her parents 30 minutes to chill.
Anonymous
You can spend time and build a relationship with kids in a group without babysitting alone.
Clara
Why are you so transactional? You don’t enjoy building relationships with or hanging out with any of your relatives? Why even go on this family vacation then?
Anonymous
Right? I’m confused by all the people who are vacationing with family and friends yet do not want to have much contact with the kids. Make it clear that it is an adults only vacation if you don’t want children to be seen or heard.
AIMS
When I go away on vacation with friends – kids or not – we all do various nice things for each other. One person might pick up coffee and donuts one morning, someone else may cook or take care of reservations, etc. I would think occupying someone’s kid for 20-30 min. falls into that general category, too, but then I try to only go away with people who I like and who like me back and who don’t view something like being helpful to others as some great offense or imposition. Yes, there are entitled people who will take advantage, but I try to not vacation with them so it’s a self correcting problem at this point in my life.
startup lawyer
+1
anon
The responses to this comment are so strange. My take on it is that OP is presenting a way that anyone so inclined can give a small gift to someone they’re vacationing with and presumably care about. I don’t read OP as setting an expectation or making a demand that fellow-travelers do this. OP doesn’t appear to say that someone who doesn’t do this is a bad friend/relative. The post really reads to me to say, “I’d like this, and I don’t feel comfortable asking the people in my life for it, but in case any of you think you’d be willing to do it for the people in your lives, I’m sure it would be appreciated!”
FWIW, I, as a parent of older kids, would have and did appreciate these small moments of relief when my kids were younger. And I appreciate OP’s reminder, and will try to remember to do this for my brother and his wife on our upcoming family vacation.
Anon
yeah, I thought it was so innocuous. If you don’t want to do it, then don’t do it. Sheesh.
Anon
Right? People need to chill.
Curious
Seriously I’ve been scrolling like this is STILL going?
Marshmallow
+1. The comments here are really odd. Nobody’s asking you to babysit kids you don’t know. OP was just saying, here is a nice idea of something small you can do for your friend or family member if you’re on vacation together– presumably if you’re close enough to be vacationing together, you’re close enough to get to know their children.
Anonymous
This. Even if you have kids, it’s easier to forget how exhausting the early years are and how rejuvenating those 30 min breaks can be. MIL is visiting us and was commenting how much more relaxed we are now that the kids are elementary age and you can let them out of your sight for a minute without worrying about what they are into or if they have fallen down the stairs or whatever.
Anon
Not OP and I don’t really enjoy watching kids who aren’t my own or close friends’ for an extended period of time, but the main page has a weirdly intense dislike of kids and moms. At the beginning of the pandemic there were comments that parents couldn’t complain because “we chose this” and “this is just life with kids” as if we all signed up voluntarily to parent in a pandemic with no school, activities, play dates etc while still trying to work our full time jobs. These toxic attitudes have made me take long breaks from this page.
Anon
yea, if you detest children so much that you can’t spend 15 minutes with them, don’t go on vacation with them
anonM
This!
Anon
+1, people here are always asking for gift ideas for others. This is a great gift! I would appreciate someone building a sandcastle with my kid for 30 minutes one day at the beach way more than a candle.
Anon
I’m probably projecting but as the one without kids in my family, there’s already sooooo much accommodating of the ones who do have them – dates, house selection, they get the better bedrooms, meal times, activities, etc. that are just taken for granted that I really react to even an innocent post seeking even more.
Anon
This is a very good point. I think a lot of times those things are totally taken for granted by parents.
Anon
OTOH, at the beach, we are eating at 5 or they have spots for large groups after 9:30. Or someone is always in the kitchen cooking.
Anon
I appreciate you sharing this perspective. I’m a parent and wish my siblings by was more engaged with my kids, but sometimes lose sight of this and it’s definitely part of the dynamic.
Anon
As someone with small kids who don’t sleep, let me assure that the “better bedroom” is the one without a baby and toddler in it.
Anon
Lol yes
Anon
This type of invalidation is exactly why people without kids sometimes get salty about issues like “can you not just feed my kid a popsicle for 15?!” when there’s no recognition that the childless person has also made lots of other compromises to be there.
Anon
Nope this is BS. The better room is the larger room with a better view and maybe the private bath. You had kids. Deal with the YOUR baby and toddler!!
Nudibranch
That’s been my experience too.
I love my sister’s kids and enjoy spending quality and quantity time with them. Being expected to be an unpaid babysitter / kid entertainer for acquaintances, not so much. Or when I feel like I’m paying more than my share to subsidize others family vacations.
Anon
Thank you, yes. This is it.
Op here, thank you, this better captures my intent. As a note, I actually don’t personally have the opportunity to go on vacations like this. The relationship my sibling(s) have with my children is not what I expected and I am very sad for it; however, as was stated earlier, you cannot force a relationship.
It was a suggestion for a gift you could give should you be so inclined.
Anon
“The relationship my sibling(s) have with my children is not what I expected and I am very sad for it”
I feel this, I really do. I have one brother whom I do not have much of a relationship with and (probably predictably) he has never been interested in having any kind of meaningful relationship with my son. It makes me sad. But there is nothing I can do about it. One thing I have learned as a parent (and maybe as a human) is that I have to accept relationships for what they are, and accept what people can give to me without expecting that they will be able to match the picture I had in my head of what was *possible* if they chose to be more engaged, involved, etc. I will say that as your kids grow, they form relationships with people who add a lot of love, meaning and support to their lives and it does kind of make up for what they aren’t getting from their blood relatives. It’s really hard, though, regardless. Hugs.
startup lawyer
Seriously, I am losing my mind at the attitude.
Anonymous
I think it is bothering people that she’s asking everyone here to anticipate the parents needing/wanting help in addition to providing it. I think the second thing is innocuous but the first thing is a lot of mental load for the person doing the favor.
Anon
Op here.
The challenge (as is clear in these comments) is that if I ask about half the responders ‘hey, do you mind keeping an eye on Kiddo for 20 minutes while he watches TV so I can drink this coffee alone outside’, they’re going to be disgusted that I am burdening them with my child.
Because many millennial women do truly listen to our child free friends and family, we don’t want to burden them with the children we acknowledge we chose to have. Thus, I provided this as a broad based nice idea with the idea that there are many women who were lamenting the 4th of July shared beach house where they were told ‘oh, everyone will be around and help with the kids’ yet nobody will actually help with the kids.
Sigh. I should have just given my white sangria recipe and kept my thoughts to myself.
Anon
I guess I’m sorry that people respond that way, and I think those people are the ones who are rude. Children aren’t just something people choose to have; child-free people would be in trouble too if no one made that choice and if no one looked after the kids. In my world, it is normal to do all kinds of favors for friends and family on vacations so that everyone can have different experiences and a good time (kids, parents, child-free people, everyone).
Anon
Yes, it’s not actually impolite to ask friends and family for this kind of favor. I think that’s the part of the comment that is provoking a lot of people. It’s like she wants a favor but wants it not to be a favor at the same time.
Amy
Great point, yes. The recipients of her PSA should not only agree to help out with the kids if asked, but should take it on themselves to find ways to “gift” their child-watching services to moms while on their vacations. Just a really weird take.
Anonymous
Yes! She wants them to want to volunteer to spend time with the kids and be excited about it. But for whatever reason the people she’s vacationing don t have that kind of relationship with her kids.
Anonymous
I wouldn’t offer to do this because I would feel like I was infringing on a family’s family vacation time. If you want to foster a closer relationship between your kids and certain people then I think you should approach those people and let them know that.
Anon 2.0
I really like this. I have an uncle who doesn’t have children but he always made an effort to bond with myself and both my brothers. I still have really fond memories of him taking me to McDonalds as a kid and letting my pick out a small trinket at Wal-mart. (We lived in a small town, so don’t judge!) He taught my brothers to love the outdoors and how to fish, etc. To this day, we are all close to him, and he still sends me a birthday card with $100 in it every year even though I am in my 30s. Had he not made that effort when we were kids, we would not have that relationship today. And on the flip side, as I mentioned he doesn’t have kids and never married, so he benefits from having all 3 of us in his life.
Anonymous
I think what is really irking me about this comment is how people have had “zero” village for two years. And that others should anticipate that and volunteer to supervise their children for some length of time.
As a mom I am constantly building my village. It started with moving closer to family. (And yes we could have been more successful if we had bounced around the country but we didn’t prioritize that. I get that not everyone has this option.) It’s asking another family over for pizza on Fridays even when the house isn’t perfect. It was choosing a daycare over a nanny so my kids could make friends. Its making sure my cousins’ kids know I will always have vegan treats for them and that they can come over even if they don’t want to play with my kids. It’s showing up at every birthday party and forcing myself to talk with the other parents. It’s saying yes to last minute invitations and spending time with people who think and vote and live differently than we do. It’s reaching out to every camp counselor, daycare teacher and young family friend that my kid is fond of and asking if they’d like to babysit. None of this was easy and most of it was not in keeping with extreme covid precautions, but it is working.
You have to build it. You cant just expect everyone to sacrifice vacation time to watch your kids.
Anon
I think you are reading way too much into the OP’s post and making a lot of weird assumptions.
Anon
The part about the village really bothered me too. People without kids have also had a hard time the last two years. Why do I have to anticipate that you need a break from your kids and babysit for you just because you’ve been dealing with COVID? Maybe I’ve had an exhausting two years too and I also need a break?
Anonymous
I’ve done a lot of what you have described but the reality is the last 2 years have been very different from normal in terms of village building. Vastly less childcare available with lockdowns, closures and having to keep kids home with the slightest symptoms. Even extended families have not seen each other as much so grandparents/aunts/uncles may not be mindful of how much even those short breaks can mean to their family members who are feeling so worn out.
And the reality is that parenting on vacation is a lot harder than parenting at home. Little kids are out of routine, off schedule, not eating and sleeping as usual. As much as childless family members may feel that parents are getting better rooms or whatever, they are making efforts to spend time with their family members because travel with young kids is not easy.
Anon
Congrats on being perfect? Not OP but I definitely feel like I have no village after the last two years, except my local parents. And I’m very grateful for my parents but I know not everyone is in a position to live close to family because of financial or job constraints, and not every grandparent is willing or able to watch kids (my best friend’s parents are dead, and I have other friends with parents who are disabled, still working full time or just plan not interested. My parents’ involvement is a wonderful gift they gave me, not a village I deserve credit for creating.
Anonymous
I’m very far from perfect and I didn’t write this to brag. Its just that I was lead to believe that the village would appear when my kids were born and that absolutely was not the case. (They said it took a village. They never said that everyone gets one.) I don’t think the solution is to say “I have zero village” and show up understandably exhausted at an annual vacation only to be disappointed that family members or friends don’t volunteer to supervise or bond with your kids. Unfortunately, you need to work on it all year long. I didn’t mean to make a list of everything I did right, or say that I’m done. Im trying to make the point that you have to work on this all the time.
Anon
Op here, agreed that your village needs to be built, it will not appear.
My point was just that a lot of our prior supports haven’t been able to be used. I am not minimizing the experience of anyone, I just really wanted to throw it out to the group that this was a kind thing to do, even if it feels small to you.
Cora
Are half the commenters here anti social? If you’re going on vacation with family I assume you like those people well enough, including the kid. You might eat ice cream with your brother, with your cousin, or with your nephew – all of those should be options. You can be friends with kids. Talk to them about their interests, like you would with literally anyone else. And keep it PG.
And kids do remember small moments. I took my baby cousin on a drive and we bought gum (1 pack of chewing gum!) and I let him pay for it himself and he remembered it for years. My dad talked to his (kinda distant) nephew about cars and now that is the basis for their relationship.
Anon 2.0
This places gets more “AAM-Y” by the day!
Anon
I was thinking that EXACT thought. I always wonder how the AAM commentariat actually manage to survive in real jobs, and now I am wondering how many of these commenters have friends at all.
Anon
A lot of people here really hate kids. It’s bizarre.
Anon
No, I do t hate kids. I hate that many parents are myopic and think they’re entitled to special treatment and consideration.
Anon
Yes, it is strange. They’re human people; we were all kids once and many of us even remember it.
I know I feel profoundly unqualified to provide childcare after years of essentially never having that responsibility; I wonder if some people are projecting their anxiety or insecurity about this. Anyway so long as a parent gave me instructions, I would be happy to keep an eye on their kids while they go do something else although I might feel nervous about it.
anon8
I haven’t commented on this thread yet – I don’t hate kids, but I am child free by choice and don’t really enjoy hanging out with them.
However in social situations where I’m with my friends who have kids, I will certainly make an effort to interact with them and be kind and friendly just like I would with adults. But it takes more effort for me to interact with kids than adults.
Anonymous
+1
I’m only going on vacation with people I like and who like me. I’m not really into kids (late 20s so none of my friends or siblings have kids yet and I know nothing about kids, how to interact with them, what they do at different ages). The only kids in my life are my cousins’ kids and it’s so much fun to take them to the playground or go get ice cream for 20 mins. I see these kids like once a year but it’s important to me to have a relationship with them because they’re my family. And turns out, they’re fun kids! But it started because I love my cousins, I wanted to pitch in a bit, and it was important to
Me to build these bonds. Not to mention – some of my favorite childhood memories involve aunts/uncles, older cousins, or family friends taking 15 mins to build a sandcastle or take me to get a slice of pizza.
Cora
Exactly! Also if you care about these kids at all you know that its good for them to have multiple adult figures in their lives – so they can see different lifestyles, have different people to ask questions to, etc.
Anonymous
I think the type of kids that parents desperately need a 15 minute break from are the type that no one else wants to watch for even 15 minutes.
Anon
That is totally false. If you’re talking about 8 year olds, maybe. But all kids 5 and under and especially 3 and under are exhausting even if they’re objectively easy, sweet kids.
Anon
I seriously don’t understand how sitting with someone’s three year old and watching Peppa Pig for 1/2 hour while mom takes a shower is such an infringement on your rights. Presumably you’re on vacation with people you like.
Anonymous
+100
I don’t love kids and I don’t know how to relate to them but if I’m on vacation with kids I’m close to their parents so obviously I’m going to play dolls for 20 mins while their parents shower.
Amy
This is so weird. How does the parent take a shower at home? Why can’t they do that same thing on vacation? Why should other adults have to step up and watch the kid so the parent can shower?
Anon
It’s so weird that you think it’s offensive to be asked to do literally one small thing when you’re vacationing with someone, Amy.
Anon
I’m not the OP but at home I have a spouse and I often take trips with my parents and siblings without my husband present, so that could be one possible answer to the “what do you do at home” question.
Anonymous
Amy – at home a toddler can be left in their crib with a few toys to entertain themselves while they shower. Or the parents have a baby seat of some kind in the bathroom where they can put the baby while they shower. On vacation, toddlers are often sleeping in a travel crib or cot which may or may not be suitable for leaving them unsupervised for a few minutes.
Parents on vacation are generally parenting in a non-baby proofed house with fewer options then they have at home. That’s why it’s kind if people have a few minutes to pitch in on occasion.
Anon
“It’s so weird that you think it’s offensive to be asked to do literally one small thing when you’re vacationing with someone, Amy.”
Nope, Amy is correct. And may be like me and has been in a situation where “literally one small thing” becomes “let me dump this on you and this becomes your sole responsibility/problem to solve.” What many people here are reacting to, I think, is this idea that “well, this is just 15 minutes or half an hour! It’s not that much of an imposition!” It absolutely can be, if people decide to take a mile when they’ve been given an inch and the 15 minutes turns into half a day, or all of a sudden, now someone is acting as the nanny so the parents can “enjoy their vacation.”
I think there are a number of selfish people here who think their precious kids are so amazing that everyone should feel grateful to spend time with the kids (and also secretly believe their lives are so much harder/their time is more valuable than people who don’t have kids), and let me assure you: that is not the case. I have a kid. When I wanted to go on vacation and not have to do childcare, you know what I did? I left my kid with my mom and my husband and I went on a trip alone together. That’s it; that’s the solution. If people want to go on vacation and not have to do childcare the whole time, they need to A. bring a nanny with them or B. go on vacation without their children. The fact that so many people are trying to bully the people who want to set boundaries around their time and their involvement with children speaks volumes. Y’all are the problem, not the people who are doing the boundary-setting.
Anonymous
This is not remotely accurate. My kids are now older but as preschoolers they were often happy to sit and play a puzzle or build with duplo legos for a half hour but someone has to be in the room with them at that age. I can’t sit on the deck and drink coffee while they do that especially in a vacation home that may not be fully baby proofed.
Sometimes a kid is already engaged in an activity and you just need an adult to keep eyes on them for 15 minutes while you shower because otherwise you have to drag them up to the bathroom with you. Those are the small moments that make life easier for a parent and where you can’t really hire a babysitter to pop in for 15 minutes while you shower.
And yes, you can ask your DH in those moments, but maybe he was up with the toddler twice in the night because the kid isn’t sleeping well in the holiday house and now he’s in the garden talking to his dad that he only sees once a year or whatever. It’s not about a mandate or expectations, it’s about choosing to lean into moments of kindness when they arise. Same way I keep my ears open for and have my SIL’s back when my MIL tries to suggest that SIL should ‘get serious about dating because the clock is ticking’.
Cat
I was one commenting above that a childless adult doesn’t always know how to slip into a kid activity naturally.
In my family, we all lived far apart, and took giant group vacations every 2 years. I didn’t really know my extended family well at all and the expectation that we should all immediately get along and bond and hang out felt weird to me. Like – I hardly know you.
My suggestion to the OP of quiet, 1-1 activities that would be low key for the other adult, while helpful and not pushy to the kid, results from this sort of vibe – no, the kids are random, it doesn’t mean you don’t care for them, there’s just not a day to day relationship where the kid feels comfortable just hanging with you!
Cat
oops nesting fail!
Seventh Sister
Yeah, my snuggly giggly infant was a total monster, which was why I needed that 15 minutes to shower.
Anon
A lot of people do not like babies, no matter how snuggly and giggly they are. I had my own baby; despite that I am not into other people’s babies. I frankly find babies boring, and I don’t like trying to figure out why they’re crying. Sorry, but I do not want to hold your baby while you shower. Get the baby’s other parent to do that – you know, the person who actually has the obligation to help you? If that’s not possible, for whatever reason – you have bigger problems.
Seventh Sister
Jesus, who peed in your Cheerios? For the sake of any person you know who ever has an infant, please don’t come visit them lest you be asked to hold a baby and be unable to use your words.
GenXerWhosOverIt
Seventh Sister, you are not the only person in the world who has ever had a baby and your baby is not objectively more adorable or more snuggly than any other baby that has ever existed. Harsh words, I’m sure you’ll say, but it’s the truth.
It should not surprise me that Millennial women cannot fathom that the world can keep turning without their personal needs being put at the center of everyone’s existence, but reading through these comments – I am surprised at the level of entitlement. And the naivete. Did people here honestly think that once they had a baby, everyone else in the universe would drop what they were doing and put their own needs aside so they could help with the baby? Did women here not realize, when they had kids, that as the mother, yes – you are 100% responsible, 24/7/365, for those kids you gave birth to; they are not anyone else’s responsibility. Parenting is hard. Those early years are exhausting and relentless. It gets better. But you chose to have the kid and in doing so, you are the one who has to step up and endure the hardships. You cannot expect other people to step in and take over just because you’re tired of it. Even for 30 minutes.
This is not the first time I’ve had to say this here, and I definitely find that more than a little weird, but let me say it again: Attention Millennials! “The grownups” are not coming to rescue you; YOU are the grownups now. You are the people who have to figure it out; Mommy and Daddy are not going to swoop into rescue you from your own choices. Again, I’m surprised I’m surprised that Millennials are having such a tough time figuring all of this out. It should have been evident to me the first time I managed one of y’all in the workplace that this would be your reaction to “adulting” with children: this is hard, I can’t do it, someone save me!
Anonymous
Honest question – those who won’t help with kids, are you willing to pitch in to help older relatives on vacation? My grandparents own the family beach house and are in their 90s. They’re lovely people that I enjoy hanging out with, but they’re old and can’t do most of the activities that the family does on vacation. As a result, we take turns staying home with them, doing things they like, adjusting our schedules to accommodate theirs. Thryre obviously different than kids but yeah – I stay home from the beach for an hour to play checkers with my grandpa so he’s not left alone. Or we plan a 5pm dinner instead of an 8pm one. Or someone gets up bright and early to cook them breakfast because they wake up early. What are your thoughts on that?
Anonymous
I don’t have an opinion on this except that I think expectations should be clear from the get-go. When I vacation with my parents we discuss ahead of time who is doing what. “Saturday Roscoe wants to go apple picking with her you and her dad but Clementine need to nap. I can stay home for that but would you mind watching her Sunday while I take him to the beach?” You have to do this before the day happens. I can’t imagine it is differs with elderly folks.
Conversations like this happen spontaneously. “Mom, Roscoe is having a popsicle and Clementine is playing blocks, can you watch them for 20 minutes while I grab a coffee with Scooter? Or did you want some alone time to read your book?” But you don’t silently seethe that no one volunteered and take it out on the internet.
Anon
OP, you got some terrible replies. I don’t have kids (don’t even plan to have them), so I do not automatically know how to entertain kids. However, if I go and spend time with friends&family and their kids, I would assume these are people I like. They make my life better/richer/nicer and I do not expect transactional relationship. It doesn’t kill to talk to their kids, play a board game with them or whatever, so that parents can get a break.
I don’t owe this to anyone, I am not expected to do this… it’s just a nice thing to do. Remember ladies, these are your friends & family: if you’re too precious to gift them 20mins of your time, why do you even bother to go on a trip together? This is not a free babysitting, it’s just a nice thing to do for your people.
Anon
Honestly in my culture I’m pretty sure I do owe this to some extent, as family, and I’m okay with that. I certainly benefitted from it when I was the child. Why would I not pay it forward?
Anon
You can eff right off with this guilt-tripping “ladies” business. Would you say the same to a man?
Anonymous
What are you talking about? The posters here are almost exclusively women – that’s who she is addressing. Obvi dudes should help too but it’s not weird that she referred to a group of women as ladies.
Anonymous
I would absolutely want to do this with my friends’ kids or my cousins’ kids. I will also say I am terrified of it on some levels. 1. There are a bunch of rules about car seats and ways to fasten those buggers into the car that are brand new to me (e.g., a 6-y.o. needs a car seat?!), so I would be wanting to do this on foot. Also, you can’t expect me to do this if you aren’t otherwise fostering a relationship between me and your kids as a runway. Very often little kids are not comfortable with being alone with adults who are not their parents. It takes some work to get there and I don’t always see parents encouraging it. If that’s the case, I am not then going to just ask kid to get ice cream alone.
Anonymous
I think a lot of parents don’t encourage because of the types of responses you see here – people that are basically angry at them for asking them to spend time with their kid. An easy way to broach it is just to mention that you’re open to it. Parents often have lots of scalable suggestions that don’t involve driving or anything complicated.
“hey I’m opening to walk down to the ice cream shop with kid/playing a board game some afternoon if you think he might like that’ or for younger kids – offer to push a stroller or carry a kid. They might say no if the kid is tired or fussy but I guarantee that the offer will make them feel cared for and supported.
Anon
“Very often little kids are not comfortable with being alone with adults who are not their parents.”
Didn’t see this point get brought up earlier, and I’m surprised. One of my friends wanted to take my son to the state fair when he was little, just the two of them. They got halfway down the road and my son freaked out and asked to go home, so she turned around, and we all went to the fair together. I was once tasked with driving my friend’s daughter home from my friend’s dad’s funeral – my friend had to stay behind and deal with logistics – and the poor kid had a meltdown about being away from her mom and was terrified for the entire drive; I felt awful for her. There’s something kind of callous about thinking you can just pawn your kid off on any available and willing adult because you, as the parent, need a break. Some kids react better to that than others.
Anonymous
Honestly, this is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. I am not going to babysit somebody else’s kids on my vacation. Get your own babysitter or bring a nanny.
Anonymous
Can anyone explain the limit of churches and political activity? Or send me to a resource? I often visit churches when I travel and the last month have been surprised at how many are praying for elected officials to pass specific bills (abortion)
PolyD
Well, according to one of the recent Supreme Court decisions, there isn’t any more separation of church and state. Coaches can pray at official school events and taxpayer money must go to religious schools. So I assume that means churches are no free to advocate for and probably find specific candidates.
I think their reasoning is that the Constitution says that government must not interfere with religion, but there’s no ban on religion interfering with government.
Yay.
PolyD
Churches are NOW free to FUND specific candidates. Comment in mod, again, for what reason I have no idea.
Anon
I feel like this is alarmist. I always liked the saying that as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school. People are religious (or not) and they get to pray (or not). Adults don’t get to proselytize or coerce. Maybe read the decision?
anon
Yeah, this. I get the frustration with SCOTUS (and I share it, especially on Roe), but some of the posts here have just been so alarmist as to be borderline dishonest lately.
Anon
Yeah, I can see the frustration on Dobbs and the Coach Kennedy case (selective fact picking in the decision…), but this is a strange characterization of the ME school funding case that practically impacts a very small portion of the country.
Anonymous
We did. He was praying publicly.
Anon
Yes — you get to do that. Or take a knee. Or pray 5x/day towards Mecca. Or get out your rosary beads.
That is how some people pray and is not surprising. I am a silent prayer. Different strokes.
Anonymous
Not if you are at work in a public school in a position of power over children. At least, not until now.
Anon
Hostility to religion is not allowed. That means that if you are religious and are called to pray, you get to do that. Honestly, as someone from a Muslim country, I appreciate this. We are treated better here than Christians are treated where I am from (must be very in-the-closet with belief expression and worship).
Aunt Jamesina
Except that the coach was praying publicly on the 50 yard line, and players were definitely encouraged to join in (hence why the dissent included photos of him praying, which I think is important context).
I’m also really tired of being told we’re alarmist and then having political norms mowed over (see: 2016 oh come on, Trump can’t be THAT bad. Roe v. Wade will *never* get turned over, what will Rs have left to campaign on? Dems are just as bad!!1!)
Anon
You get to pray where you are allowed to be. You don’t have to go to the back of the bus.
PolyD
Thank you. Yes, a coach publicly praying in a way that coerced, whether overtly or implied, other players to join in isn’t some innocent Christian silently praying in the corner.
I personally cannot wait until coaches start games with a prayer to Allah, or when people find out their taxes are funding the madrassa down the road. Pro-public prayer people seem to always assume it will be Christian praying, they don’t seem to include other religions in their freedom of religion. Witness all the whining when schools in areas with lots of Muslim students try to offer accommodations for Ramadan.
I’m beginning to think that churches should offer me equal time to go to their services and lecture on evolution, seeing as they are intruding into the public space.
Anon
I think you also get to pray before meals which a lot of people do. I think if you can’t be around others who are exercising their faith, you need to not make this the problem of others who live differently. Adults, kids, whatever.
Aunt Jamesina
Public employees in a leadership role can’t pretend that every expressions of religion while on the job is neutral. Nobody is asking them to get to the “back of the bus”, that’s an awful analogy. He can absolutely pray wherever/whenever he wants if it’s truly in the background, I don’t disagree with that. He could have easily quietly prayed on the sidelines throughout the game or at home before and after or in his car or wherever. 50 yard line after the crowd has gone home. Prayer in general is not the issue here. But the fact that he made a show of it and it turned it into an event is.
For those saying that it has no affect on the players, a parent complained that his atheist son “felt compelled to participate” and that “he wouldn’t get to play as much if he didn’t participate.”
PolyD
I think some people here don’t understand how absolutely coercive and uncomfortable it can be, especially for kids, to be in the presence of officially-sanctioned prayer, which is what we are talking about here, people in leadership positions leading prayers in school. Why do you even need to pray like that? Isn’t there something in the Bible about praying silently, not out loud on street corners? Why are religious people so insistent on foisting their religion on the non-religious?
As for the funding of religious schools with taxpayer money only applying to schools in Maine, right, just like those abortion restrictions that started in Texas stayed in Texas.
Anon
My parents sent me to Catholic school and we are not Catholic. I was actually forced to worship a lot and not how I would have preferred it. I guaranteed that any coercion felt probably pales in comparison to what I experienced and is 100% likely to backfire. Kids can go along if they truly have to (debatable here) but unless they are a true snowflake, they will be find and adhere to their own compass no matter what. [Sort of how like learning about S8x ed does not make you act on it.]
Aunt Jamesina
Learning about sex Ed is factual without value judgement (and curricular!). Not at all equivalent.
Didn’t any of you have teachers or coaches who played favorites? Or who were clear in their stance on political or religious issues and made you feel you couldn’t share your own perspective?
Once again, this coach is free to pray (even while he’s actively coaching!). Making a public event of it and continuing even after parents said their child felt pressured is the problem.
Anon
A lot of people are very up front about things that I don’t believe in and I wasn’t in school that long ago. I feel that this is common. And honestly, in high school, kids ought to be encourage to navigate difficult water and not to demand that things be shut down. You will need these skills in college and when you have a job. I work with a ton of men who have wives who don’t work and are very much conservative than me. Some pray at lunch. Some view women as lesser. Some are in very conservative denominations. Some other people want me to fund orgs I don’t like or feel are sketchy. You have to grow a backbone sometime. If this is coercive to high school football players, I feel like we are doomed.
Aunt Jamesina
Also, for Anon at 11:30 and the “snowflake” comment: I think for most, the worry is not that their child will be converted, it’s that their child will have to suppress who they are and feel they won’t be in the inner circle of favorites.
These are children, can we please not call them snowflakes?
Aunt Jamesina
I agree with your statement that “in high school, kids ought to be encourage to navigate difficult water and not to demand that things be shut down”. They can experience that in many ways– in debate, writing for their student paper, in seeing other students engage in their faith or express their views. But as a former high school teacher I think that those difficult confrontations/discussions/arguments are FAR more effective when they come from their peers, with adults serving as the moderators who help them navigate things in an appropriate manner, Adults should know better than to be the ones inflicting those “difficult waters” and must understand that encouraging students to go along with your personal views is inappropriate and will leave some students feeling shut out.
I see zero issue with someone having an individual prayer before eating, whether at school or in the workplace. But I disagree that it’s appropriate for an adult in a leadership position in a public school to lead prayer.
Maybe you’re okay with this one decision, but to me this is the slow erosion of the division between church and state. We need to believe Republicans when they show us, over and over, that they don’t act in good faith and have no respect for democracy if it doesn’t serve them.
Monday
Agreed. This is not a case of a rando quietly praying while minding his own business. It’s an authority figure “inviting” his team to join him in a public prayer, all in uniform together, in front of everyone. Some students stated that they felt pressured and concerned about negative consequences if they didn’t join, but honestly even if no student made that claim there would still be an appearance of religious endorsement, with those concerns being totally reasonable. The decision reverses critical, longstanding precedent that public employees cannot use their positions to require or even tacitly expect people under their authority to engage in religious activities. I don’t know why anyone is giving the current SCOTUS the benefit of any doubt whatsoever right now? And who genuinely thinks it would have been the same decision with any religion other than Christianity at issue?
Anonymous
As a kid who had the straps to her gym bag cut when she walked off the field silently because the rest of the team was praying, and then harassed for a week as I made by way home by the person I previously made the trek with, please know that this decision is absolutely going to hurt people and is an announcement that Christianity is supported by the government now. And if you are foolish enough to think that they won’t interpret religious acts of other religions to not be in keeping with “history and tradition” later then you don’t know this Court at all.
Anon
I thought the whole issue was an authority figure praying aloud and publicly while surrounded by kids who are expected to fall in line with what he says in general, and who felt pressured to participate. Is that a misrepresentation?
Aunt Jamesina
Nope. I think the posters defending his prayer really need to take a look at the earlier press, the photos of him praying, and statements from parents that their kid felt pressured. For such seriously misrepresented the situation.
Aunt Jamesina
*Gorsuch
Anon
Students testified that they felt coerced. He was praying publicly and inviting students to join. Obviously there’s pressure to make your coach happy so he’ll give you playing time and a letter of recommendation. If he were actually praying privately (or even in front of other teachers, over whom he holds no power) I would agree with you, but that’s not the case at all. He had power over the students and was asserting it to make them join him in prayer.
Anon
This is all going to be solved by a devout Muslim coach bringing his prayer rug and strongly suggesting the students share in his ritual. The right will lose their minds.
Anonymous
Did you read the dissent and look at the pictures. Gorsuch’s opinion says one thing and approves something else because that coach was absolutely coercing and poselytizing and then the opinion just pretended he wasn’t because that way there can be more praying in schools, which is the goal.
Anon
My understanding, from my involvement in synagogue leadership, is that the dividing line is that while we can advocate for specific bills, we can’t endorse specific political candidates without putting our tax-exempt status at risk. In practice, we have a “no politics from the pulpit” rule, and instead encourage political conversation during social events and classes. Like most synagogues in America, we do say a general prayer for the well-being and wisdom of government officials (and they certainly need it…).
Anon
Whiskeypalian here and we pray for all in authority. Politics in the pulpit just alienates people and IMO sullies the church.
Of Counsel
Same – and every time there is a change in political party, the other side complains about it! Our rector always says the same thing, which is that people in positions of authority can use all the help they can get.
But yes – churches can support specific bills, just like the Sierra Club and the AARP, without putting their tax exempt status at risk. That often translates to unspoken support for a specific candidate but that SHOULD go unsaid. So a church can support anti-abortion or pro gun control measures without endangering its status (as long as it does not step over the line into being a lobbyist but that is a whole other discussion).
Anon
I’m not sure if it’s different for churches, but for 501(c)(3)s, this is the rule. They can take a stand on political issues but not endorse a specific candidate or political party.
But also church and state lines are blurred in this country and I have no confidence any church would actually lose its tax exempt status for endorsing specific candidates.
Aunt Jamesina
I don’t think it’s enforced at all. Has *any* religious institution ever lost tax exempt status for endorsing someone?
Seventh Sister
It’s very rare for churches to be investigated and/or lose their nonprofit status over even blatantly supporting political candidates or parties. Our church definitely discusses what I think of as “big picture” political issues, even in sermons, but the clergy always reiterate that they don’t endorse a party or candidate.
Anon
TAX CHURCHES
Aunt Jamesina
Amen.
Anon
Do you think all charitable organizations should be taxed or just churches? And how do you propose we distinguish between them?
This is a genuine question but I would also point out that while churches that take outrageous social positions often make the news, most of us are out here providing services to the homeless and victims of domestic violence and immigrants (the ministries I am involved in).
Anon
Churches DO pay tax: property tax, sales tax and payroll tax. If you want to tax their income, you will need to cancel the deduction on the personal tax return. Where are they supposed to get their money after that?
Aunt Jamesina
No, they’re exempt from federal, state, and local taxes under federal law.
Anonymous
Yeah. Please post a list so I can report them and get their tax exmeptions taken away. Churches are scourges on society and I am very very tired of them skating by not paying their share in taxes and then having their members brag about how much “charity” they give when in fact all they did was donate to expand a church sanctuary for a community that is actively working to marginalize, minimize, and other me and my friends.
ANON
AITA? Had a little tiff on a tourist train and want to know if I was off base. Took a scenic train on the outside air car with long benches (6-8 folks on a bench depending on the length). My family of four got there early and sat together, taking up half the space on an 8 seater. Couple facing the other direction took up fourt spaces along with their bags. The conductor suggests that everyone should flip sides to see different scenery on the return trip. We reboarded after lunch and the spreading out couple is in the same seats and a new couple is now in our seats compleat with man-spreading. There are no other spaces for the four of us to sit together. Neither couple would move. Conductor says it is not assigned seating so would not make them move. I thought it was a grade school rule that if you pick a seat, then it is yours for the whole field trip. What says the hive?
Anon
In this situation, I would be willing TBTA. If there should be 4 seats available on my preferred bench once the manspreading ceases and/or bags are moved, I would definitely take those 4 seats and either squish the manspreaders back into their alloted space or tell the seat hogging bags they are going on the floor and let the owners deal with their own feelings about it.
Anon
Did you silently seethe? In that case, NTA. If you asked to switch nicely, NTA. If you caused a scene when no one moved, everyone is TA.
Cat
The couple taking up seats with their bags was rude, but it sounds like switching seats was actually recommended here? If your family of 4 is two parents and two kids, this is when you each take a kid and split up for a little bit, no?
Anon
Speaking as a former train-crazy kid, splitting up is the way to go here, no matter what, so both kids can get an end/window view, hopefully. Can’t speak to the etiquette part, though.
Anon
Whenever people take up scare space on trains with bags, manspreading, etc., I just sit down. Their behaviour is entirely voluntary and should be treated as such.
Amy
Unfortunately no, in a situation like this there are no “our seats.” First come, first served. The couple who sat in the seats you had before lunch may have had seats that were uncomfortable or inferior in some way and so made sure to get on the train quickly after lunch to grab better seats. They’re fine.
Using seats for purses and bags is wrong, and they should have consolidated their stuff – did you try to ask them to do so, or for the conductor to make them do so? I completely agree they shouldn’t have to move, but it’s reasonable to ask them to put their bags on the floor or in another stowage area.
Emma
Well, you could do what a couple did to us on a recent boat tour and literally sit on the other people until they are forced to move (DH and I were sitting on a nice outdoor bench on the boat. We were normally spaced out with the next couple. Two other people came up and just sat down between us such that my rear end was touching this random dude’s despite my best efforts. There clearly was no more space on this bench so I’m not sure what they thought it was their God-given privilege to sit there. I just froze and spent the last hour of the cruise squirming to get away from this guy while silently seething that people could be so rude. They didn’t say a word to us or the other couple).
Anyway NTA. I agree that this should have been an implicit rule and also hate when people hog seats with their bags. Your backpack does not need a view.
Anon
Gently, I don’t think you’re in the right. I would’ve liked to but not expected to sit in the same seat, unless I had put something like a sweater over the chairs to “mark my territory”.
Anonymous
You’re wrong and more than a bit ridiculous. Fine to ask! But getting the conductor involved? Girl no.
Anonymous
I agree. In these situations DH and I just sit separately and each take a kid with us. Kids often swap out half way through.
ANON
Yes, I completely overreacted! I know that. But I was upset that the spreading couple could not just do what was suggested and simply switch sides with us. Thanks you everyone for the thoughts.
Anon
Agreed.
Anonymous
ESH. The bag couple are the worst offenders, they obviously should’ve put their bags on the floor to accommodate all of you. But also if you’re a family of 4 and MUST sit together then you should book private tours not try to do more public/group touristy things.
I saw something similar happen recently. DH and I took a small group tour to some wineries. The minibus has something like 12 seats, one row of 1-seat, one row of 2-seats, and the back row had 4 seats. A couple and their two small children (2 and 4?) were the last to get picked up. They had to divide up among the 1-seaters for the ride out, no one in the back seat offered to move so the family could sit together. Two ladies had sat in the back and tried to take up the entire 4 seats but had to give up 2 because there was nowhere else to sit. Those ladies changed seats on the return trip, kicking a couple out of a 2-seater, who then sat in the back row, and the family still couldn’t sit together. Those same ladies also tried to take up the last/only 4-top at several wineries and the guide had to tell them to move so the family could sit together. The family never complained and the children were much better behaved than some of the adults. Unfortunately when you do group activities like this, there’s a high chance that someone is going to be an AH and you have to decide whether to make a big deal of it or just let it go and try to enjoy your trip.
Anon
Calling shotgun isn’t a thing with adult strangers… And I think getting the conductor involved is a massive overreaction.
NYCer
Free seating means free seating. I think putting bags on seats is pretty rude, but I don’t think anyone had a claim to a particular seat. I would not have gotten the conductor involved, especially since you had two parents and two kids and could easily split up.
Anon
I agree with this. I think the couple with the bags are AHs but honestly I think the OP may have been as well if the conductor got involved. This is one of those silly inconveniences you just roll your eyes at, honestly. Or ask politely for them to move their things and if they don’t, continue on knowing that they are AHs. The couple that switched seats were not AHs at all since there was no assigned seating and they have no obligation to ensure that others can have their own preferred seats. Especially when the conductor encouraged everyone to switch seats!
Anonymous
+1
Anon
If there were four seats left and they just weren’t the ones you wanted YTA.
Anon
I live in NYC, and when people on the subway refuse to move their bag so I can sit down, I pick up the bag and hand it to them and sit down. I’m a person, that’s a bag, I get the seat. People have looked shocked, but I’m not impolite about it, just matter of fact, so no one has ever said anything.
NYCer
Really, no one has ever said anything after you move their bag? I honestly would be fairly p*ssed if a stranger picked up my bag on the subway, and I am a fairly easy going person. Granted, I never really put my bag on the seat so I can’t imagine being in that situation, but I don’t know, this just seems oddly aggressive to me.
On the flip side, I am totally comfortable asking someone if they mind moving their bag that is on a seat. If they say no, I just quietly am angry in my head.
Anon
It’s not aggressive after I ask politely. I’m sure they want to do the right thing; I’m just helping them out.
Anon
I do this too.
Anon
Not a tourist thing, but there’s always someone on BART with their bag on the seat when it’s standing room only on the train. I don’t know why people decide to stand rather than ask the A to move their bag, but I take great delight in doing so. I also have a bad knee that makes it hard for me to stand on a swaying train, so I need the seat. I just walk up and say “Excuse me, could you move your bag? I’d like to sit here.” Sometimes the person is nice about it, sometimes they make a visible show of indignation and move it, sometimes it’s a stare-down, but on the rare occasion I need to follow up with the “seats are for people, not for bags” I tend to get the seat. I can’t recall any occasion where it hasn’t worked.
OP you should have just asked annoying couple to move their bags, or man-spreader couple to scoot down. If they refused, then they’re the a-holes, but I would have done at least one follow up level before fetching the conductor.
ANON
Thanks! I did ask them and they refused. I actually asked the ticket taker on our car and he got the conductor.
Anon
I came across the website flexjobs dot com yesterday, which charges a subscription fee. Are any readers familiar with this site and able to comment on whether it’s worth paying for?
Anon
I used it for several months when job searching. It is not where I ultimately found the job I got, but it had A LOT of job postings that I didn’t see posted anywhere else. I applied to a lot of them, and I think I got one interview from it (in which I made it to the third/final round) for a job I really wanted, but ultimately didn’t get. I will say I feel like the ones I applied to through there though, I got a higher rate of actual responses thanking me for my application and saying they weren’t moving forward with me (as opposed to just ghosting me). It wasn’t that expensive so I felt like it was worth it. Hope that helps!
Anon
It’s legit and I used it for several months. I didn’t find anything and wasn’t wowed by it, but the fee isn’t too much and if you are actively job searching I would incorporate it into your search.
Anonymous
For those of you who rent – what percentage of your income goes to rent, if you’ve been in your place for over a year – how much was your increase, and what type of place do you rent? Feel free to include details like location, salary, etc.
Im in a MCOL city, currently apartment searching and my new place will likely be 40% of my take home, which I’m learning is reasonable as I have several friends paying 50-60%! The rental market is truly bananas right now…
Anon
Is that living solo? Or even with roommates?
Stepkid is going to graduate in December and I keep telling him to make friends and plan on roommates to make the math less painful.
Anonymous
Sounds about right to me, even before Covid. This is why I’ve always lived in safe but less desirable places (like the burbs) and have never lived in a hip neighborhood. I can’t justify spending 50% or more of my take home pay on rent. It boggles my mind that so many of my friends are living – no roommates – in hip areas even though I know they make half or less what I do. They’ve got to be spending like 80% of their income on rent. Maybe their parents are helping them? We’re in our 30s though so idk.
Anon
We rent a single family home in the NYC burbs. $4,000/month, which is 1/3 of takehome but a much smaller percentage of overall compensation (b/c takehome doesn’t include bonus or equity grants in a F500 company).
Anon
Where I live, the rental market is bananas, but nobody will rent to you unless you can document income 3x the rent. But I guess it’s possible that rent increases could be so high that you could end up paying 40-50% if your salary decreased or stayed the same. Luckily, our rent only went up $100 per month this year, but comparable places are now $1000 to $2000 more than we’re paying and still almost impossible to find.
Anonymous
I have a friend whose rent was raised $1200! It nearly doubled !
Anonymous
Often times that 3x is gross, so rent could easily be closer to 45% of net
Anon
That’s fair- I only ever think of gross income because we put about half our paychecks into retirement. It never makes sense to me to think in terms of take home pay as we could change that dramatically whenever we need to.
Anon
I should add that if we were going by the take home pay metric, then rent is around 70% of our paychecks.
Anon
I read your 3x as the commonly used s3x and I was so confused.
Anon
Two years ago, in NYC (far outer borough) and my place was half my take home pay. My apartment is rent stabilized, so it went up 1.5% last year (I think), and will go up ~5% when I renew next year. Meanwhile, I got a significant raise and my partner moved in, so my share of the rent is now about 29% of my take home pay. I would figure out if your city has any sort of rent stabilization and prioritize getting into one of those buildings and into an apartment you can stay in for a long time — in time, your income will go up and the percentage you are paying in rent will go down.
Nina
Living solo, 1 bedroom, HCOL city
Have my budget spreadsheet open right now – rent is 40% of my after tax income
Deedee
You’re not crazy, rents are. I think median rent for an apt in the US just hit $2K.
I’m in the midst of moving from MCOL (Rhode Island) to MCOL (central Jersey). Old rent was static for the past four years at 19% gross/32% take home. I think our LL will be able to re-rent for 30-40% more after we move out. (Sidenote: WTF)
New rent will be 23% of gross or 40% of take home. This is a great deal for the area.
Anom
My NYC rental building requires that annual rent is no more than 0.30 of annual salary pre-tax. (Annual salary must be 40X or more of the monthly rent).
London (formerly NY) CPA
When I left NYC last summer, I was paying about 50% of my takehome pay on rent, and that was with a roommate. Definitely not a luxury apartment or neighborhood but quite central. Money felt a bit tight between rent and trying to meet my savings goals but I made it work. For context, my pre-COVID apartment had 2 roommates and was closer to 40% of my takehome.
Anon
LCOL area, about 15% of take home pay, has gone up ~13% since we moved in three years ago. We would like something a bit larger, but anything bigger costs literally twice as much money.
Sasha
I’m on the low end of HCOL, in a high rise studio. My original lease (COVID deal) was $1750. When I resigned, it was raised about 10% to just under $2k and that’s about 25% of my monthly take home. The trade off is that I live in 600 sq feet with a single interior door but it was worth it to me to keep that ratio down.
anon
How is Cuyana’s cashmere? I’m considering buying this but it’s final sale. Any one want to talk me into/out of it?
https://www.cuyana.com/casual-essentials/single-origin-cashmere-funnel-neck-sweater/20032418-630-0SM.html
Anon
I can’t talk you out of it. It’s gorgeous.
A.
What have been some of your favorite destinations for a part-lazy, part-active vacation? I’m looking for travel inspiration for our family of five (two adults and three kids ranging from age 7-13).
AIMS
Martha’s Vineyard. You can lay on the beach and eat all the seafood. You can also go on lots of hikes and bike rides. Plenty of shops and restaurants to browse in. Local theater, etc.
Anon
Hawaii, Belize, and Puerto Rico have been favorites at our house.
Cat
Many Caribbean islands – Jamaica perhaps the most obvious? – offer water sports and/or mountain stuff like zip lining.
NYCer
Hawaii, Costa Rica, South of France, Corsica
Anon
I feel like I recommend Acadia for all the family travel threads, but it’s really great with kids of all ages. At your kids’ ages there are a lot of great hikes you can do, but there’s also plenty of low key stuff you can do too. I also think Hawaii would be great.
Anon
Hawaii, Costa Rica, Southern California
Anon
It depends on the balance of lazy vs active you’re looking for. If tipping more toward lazy but you don’t want to lie on the beach the whole time, all-inclusive resort in the Caribbean or Mexico with a few off-site excursions. If tipping more toward active but with some downtime, honestly most places fit that bill if you get a hotel with a pool and don’t overschedule yourselves. My personal vote for that kind of trip would be for an agriturismo in Tuscany.
Anonymous
Belize, Amalfi Coast
Horse Crazy
Looking for a good feminist/pro-choice t-shirt to buy online and wear on the 4th of July. Preferably one whose proceeds suppose pro-choice orgs. Any suggestions?
anon
Human right campaign has a cool rainbow block feminist Tee shirt. I’m not sure they fund abortive service providers directly, but abortion is a human right so they definitely are working for bodily autonomy rights.
There was a discussion two days ago (morning thread?) of organizations you could buy merch from to support them. The shirts were more abortion centric than feminist but that thread may be worth checking out.
pugsnbourbon
There was a big list on yesterday’s morning thread, I think.
Horse Crazy
Just found it – it was Monday’s! Thanks so much :)
AcademicDoc
Just screaming this into the void. I just got a text from a former trainee stating “Hey, Just so you know, I added you as a reference for credentialing.” No. This is something that you 1. ask to do in 2. an email
KJ
I actually disagree. So many things require references and so few actually follow through on them. It’s more tiresome to get 20 emails a year from 100 former trainees overexplaining the request to be available for a reference. I tell any trainees I’ve had a reasonably close relationship with that they should feel free to list me as a reference whenever needed. This is part of your responsibility as faculty! Obviously if someone needs a letter it’s a different situation.
Anon
+1
Anon
+1
AcademicDoc
If we’d had that conversation, I totally agree with you and it would have been a non-issue. But we hadn’t. As below, we’ve had a bunch of professionalism issues and this hit at a frustrated moment.
Anon
“Hey, just so you know, it’s going to be a bad reference.”
Anon
That’s a huge overreaction. Would you really try to tank someone’s career because they failed to follow etiquette that only you know?
anonshmanon
Particularly the part where you bristle at text but would have been fine with email. Boomers bristle at people emailing instead of calling, but we don’t have to pass on this type of bean counting to the next generation.
Anon
+1 Those things are often about control. If you want to discuss via email/phone, then shoot back a text and say “would you be able to email me about this?” and include your email.
Anonymous
Physician credentialing requires numerous references from previous roles, including residency, and credentialing can sometimes have to be done for each hospital and in each state a doctor works in. It is a huge pain and administrative burden and should be streamlined. At least one attending from the residency program likely has to give a credentialing reference or this former trainee physician won’t be able to get a job anywhere (or won’t be able to start a job they have already accepted and moved across the country for). Of course they should have asked in advance but all residents will need references from their residency program for credentialing, even if they have gone on to do a fellowship elsewhere.
Anon
Eh some people I work with have to be texted to get a response. Emails go into the void. I have no idea which one you are, but a younger person in 2022 is probably going to text some things that maybe could have been an email but it’s all text and this isn’t a legal document, so shrug
Anon
Is this a recent trainee? Or someone from ages ago? I think if recent, this is very normal and you are reacting poorly. If stale, then yes, your reaction has merit.
Anon
If you prefer email, why not just text back and ask they send the request in an email so don’t forget about it
AcademicDoc
I have. We’re having a lot of issues with professionalism and this hit me at a bad moment. What I really wish had happened, since this person has been rounding with me within the last few weeks, is for her to have just asked when we were together and then sent a text or email saying “thanks for agreeing to do this, please look for an email from…”
Anon
I always play with / babysit my nieces on family vacations and dinners. I’m their favorite aunt and they love me, and it isn’t a chore. However, I think it is inappropriate to have the expectation that anyone should have to watch your kids for any amount of time on your vacation. As a single woman in most families, I think it’s really underestimated 1) how much labor already gets implicitly put on you as a “gentle expectation” and 2) how frequently you are devalued, considered less important than women with kids, have your needs placed secondary, etc.
You can’t expect people to take your kids so you can get coffee, or feel entitled to a “village.” Some women just don’t want to do that. And that’s okay!! It shouldn’t be an expectation, it shouldn’t be something they get dinged for, etc. it’s their right, and if they’re not volunteering, that’s okay – just wait for someone who does.
Hanging out with kids is labor if you don’t want to be doing it. Let’s not put expectations of unpaid labor on women in our communities when we’re all already dealing with a lot.
anon
no one has said i only expect the women in my family to do this. and if you’re reading that into it, it’s your projection and i’m sorry that’s your experience with your family.
but i am pretty sure that parents just want someone they love and care about to also have a relationship with their kid, an extension of themselves and it comes in these small moments and yes, it is also a break for the parent. If you don’t want that, then fine but unpaid labor? is it also unpaid labor when a friend asks you to do something other than a breezy brunch? like come on.
Anon
I think the expectation of childcare here is being couched under “building a relationship” or “just 15 minutes.”
OP specifically was referencing people saying there’d be lots of folks to watch the kids on trips, and then winding up with no one volunteering to watch the kids.
It’s a proven fact that implicit bias puts expectations for things like childcare and home-care disproportionately on women.
Building relationships with children is a wonderful, beautiful thing. I love to do it. But it is still an inappropriate expectation to put on anyone and doing so can create a lot of resentment.
Anonymous
I find it such an odd notion that it is “an inappropriate expectation” that aunts/uncles spend time with their nieces/nephews on family trips.
Anonymous
+1
I grew up in an environment where people helped out family/friends without being transactional (though there was an expectation that everyone would reciprocate when the can). So yeah – aunts/uncles spending time with niblings is expected.
Anonymous
I think you need to explicitly ask for help with childcare. It’s perfectly ok to ask a close family member or friend to watch your children for a few minutes. You can use social skills to figure out if that’s something they’ll be receptive to and make sure to give them a way to say no that saves face.
It’s not ok to ask them to take on the mental load of anticipating that you want them to do this and volunteering. It’s just going to cause resentment and hurt feelings and youre much less likely to have your coffee break.
Cora
Who said anything about women only? Sorry your family is sexist but the idea that family members should take care of other family members every so often is just . . .being a pack animal. Its not an outrageous request. My family doesn’t hate its kids and the “cool aunts / cool uncles” are both single & partnered, men & women etc etc.
My favorite family babysitter growing up was my mom’s much younger brother, who got married when I was in middle school. My other best family-members-I-was-friends-with were my 2 other cousins, men, who were in grad school when I was in elementary school. And they definitely liked me back and did not resent spending time with me – and now I spend time with their kids like that!
Anon
The implicit bias isn’t something I’m talking about in my family. It’s been proven over and over again in studies. Honestly folks are being kind of crazy today.
Cora
The people who hate smaller members of their own species as a class are the crazy ones.
Anon
No one hates children here. They’re saying they don’t want anyone to harbor the expectation that they have to take care of other people’s kids on vacation. Which is very, very reasonable.
Cora
Hanging out with someone who you have agreed to go on vacation with for actually 15-30 minutes is not babysitting, its basic socializing. Are you an incompetent adult? I don’t have kids or are married but people here are beyond. No one is saying to take the kids for hours at a time.
Anon
+1 to Cora. If you’re unwilling to spend 15 minutes with the children of people you presumably love or at least like a lot, you’re being unreasonable. If you hate kids that much, don’t take vacations with people who have little kids.
Anon
” If you hate kids that much, don’t take vacations with people who have little kids.”
I definitely think that’s the tactic many folks here are going to adopt – including myself. I had no idea there were so many parents out there who felt entitled to other people’s time, and had a baseline expectation that other people should step in to care for their children so they can “enjoy their vacation.” I am going to be much more cautious, in the future, about the invitations I accept for group trips as I don’t want to get stuck in a vacation rental with an entitled mom who is going to sit there seething because I don’t want to watch her child while she “relaxes.” If I wanted to take care of kids, I would have had more of my own.
Anon
Well, I mean, OP’s post on the mom’s page mentioned her husband didn’t do any of the work, didn’t it?
Anon
It’s a different person. She clarified both here and on the mom page.
Anon
It’s family. It’s unpaid labor no matter who is doing it. If Mom is watching her own kids, it’s unpaid labor. If Grandma watches her grandkids, it’s unpaid labor. If Auntie watches them, it’s unpaid labor.
And as far as labor goes, it’s pretty normal on a family vacation to make sure the same person isn’t always the one preparing meals, cleaning up, doing the dishes, taking out the trash (all unpaid labor). Would you give this big speech about unpaid labor if someone asked you to do something you do think of as a chore?
Anon
Putting an expectation of providing free childcare on anyone is very, very unfair. ESPECIALLY on vacation. Many people, including myself, willingly and eagerly volunteer. If a person is not volunteering, let them be.
Anonymous
Why are there no men in this example? The father is presumably responsible for the child—but other relatives are not by default.
Anon
No men in this example because OP said “let’s not put expectations of unpaid labor on women in our communities.”
Anonymous
That makes sense, thank you.
Anon
I totally agree. Thank you for saying it.
Anon
Me too. 100%.
Anon
This married mother agrees 100%.
In many families, single women are treated like garbage. My time was seen as free and disposable. No plans I had were ever considered important (even work, if they wanted something more). College, law school – it was expected that when fingers were snapped, I would come running. It was a massive scandal when I spent a holiday with my then-fiance instead of hopping on a plane to go ‘home’ to family.
Then there’s people who treat you like you’re a child when you’re newly married, because they got married shortly after exiting diapers and were immature AF, so clearly, *you’re* immature and in need of guidance as a newlywed. Sorry, I’m in my 40s and literally am closer to an AARP membership than college, so –shrug– not happening.
Cora
I keep getting what I thought was a recurring pimple between my eyebrows. I do have a unibrow naturally, and get them threaded. I’d think it was an ingrown hair or something, but this doesn’t happen right after I get it threaded or any other consistent time. Any ideas? A few days of any salicylic acid treatment and it goes away each time.
Anon
It sounds like a cyst. They often don’t go fully away until they burst (and often leave a scar, sadly). I’d keep doing what you’re doing.
Cora
Hmm that sounds right. It’s also pretty painful. I don’t get acne at all except for this recurring pimple and also a recurring pimple on my nose, maybe they’re both cysts.
Anon
The stickies with microneedles in them are a lifesaver for cysts. I very rarely get them but they are so painful when I do and this clears them up in one day without recurrence. I have to say they are ridiculously painful to apply, so keep that in mind.
Anon
These are what I have.
https://www.ulta.com/p/deep-blemish-microdarts-pimprod2018407?sku=2567109&cmpid=PS_Non!google!Product_Listing_Ads&cagpspn=pla&CATCI=pla-1457896369818&CAAGID=114700862790&CAWELAID=330000200002533924&CATARGETID=330000200002831529&CADevice=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl6iC3prT-AIVRWxvBB166w1wEAQYBCABEgJ-C_D_BwE
Anonymous
I had mine removed/extracted during a medical facial and it hasn’t come back in six months. It hurt like heck when it was extracted and it took awhile to heal up, but it was worth it. It was starting to create scarring.
Anon
ew…
Anonymous
Really Anon? OP doesn’t need that.
SH
I came across this article (https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220603-why-women-have-to-sprint-into-leadership-positions) highlighting research from LinkedIn that finds women who don’t secure senior leadership positions within the first decade of their career most likely will not later. What’s your take on this research? Particularly for those who have had significant time in the workforce, how have you managed your career in the first 10 years and beyond?
Personally, I’m about to hit 10 years in the workforce. I have aspirations for senior leadership, and though I’ve experienced significant growth over the course of my career, I’m nowhere near senior leadership. This article was a good reminder for me to take a more active role in accelerating my career.
Anon
Eek scary. Does it say why?
Cat
The first 10 years? A 32yo should be in senior leadership or is doomed? No.
Anonymous
That sounds really off base to me. Did they look at similar data for men?
Anon
Sounds like they did and men reach leadership positions more slowly. I wondered the same thing because I bet there’s some aspect of highly successful/ambitious people who will end up in leadership or going to also be more highly successful/ambitious early on too. But I believe they did control for that.
Anon 25 yrs career
I would ignore that, and focus on makng sure that any life partner you choose is someone who is 50:50 at home and supportive of your career…choosing an employer who gives equal opportunities to those who seek them out…hone your craft and seek out and rock some stretch assignments. Invest in great childcare and have backup plans for when childcare is unexpectedly unavailable. Apologies for typos, but that’s been my real life experience, and I got to Director (senior leadership) once in first 10 years, then got married and career slumped, and am just divorced and career hopefully will repair. (PS I married the wrong person, and am currently open to introductions!)
Anon
Do I have a right to be mad?
I started working at a small business last year. It has been a huge push to wrestle control of our digital marketing out of the hands of the woman who was previously managing it. Her rationale for hoarding information, even though she was ostensibly doing a bad job (the website looked horrible), was that her SEO work was so great and we were getting 100k visitors a month to our site.
This was impressive, so I backed off. Flash-forward, it turns out she isn’t doing anything currently with SEO or Google Ads (all the work was past-tense). I take it over. I re-do the website and everyone says how amazing it loos, but we have a huge dropoff in traffic. It turns out 90% of our website traffic was bots. It took 2 seconds for me to figure this out, but she’d been parading the bot traffic about for years without filtering it out. Even worse, our Google Ads spend is super not-optimized, so we are paying like 10x more than we should be for the same result.
She is acting like the bots revelation is NBD now that I’m pointing it out. Same with Google Ads. I don’t want to explicitly say, “How could this happen?” But it doesn’t seem like she’s willing to apologize or accept any wrongdoing on her own. I’m outsourcing the work to an agency to oversee.
Is that as crazy as I think?
Anon
What is your org relationship to this woman? Are you her boss? Are you a senior stakeholder? I mean she’s not going to apologize, that’s just not necessary. But what probably is necessary is to fire her, unless she has another job at the company that she’s doing competently. Obviously, what has gone on is madness and incompetence and what she is doing now isn’t necessarily malicious, it’s just self-preservation.
anon
Um, sounds like you have a beef with a semi-incompetent employee.
Backing up a a bit, have you ever seen a semi-competent colleague raise their hand and say, “I f’ed up?” It’s pretty rare. Most people like this get the way they are by vehemently pretending they are competent.
So I’m not sure what you want here, but sounds as though things were not good in the past, they’re on the trajectory to being fixed, so, aside from rubbing in this woman’s incompetence or expecting an apology or her to trumpet her incompetence, things are looking up on a go-forward basis.
Anon
I mean, yeah, your expectations are out of whack. You found a mistake and you’re dealing with it so it’s not a problem moving forward. Why do you need to focus on how wrong this woman was? It’s not going to do you any good because you’re not going to get what you want from her, and it’s not going to do your company any good because it’s a waste of time.
Senior Attorney
Why do you need her to apologize? I’m sure it embarassing for her — what do you expect her to do? You’ve fixed the problem so how about being a little gracious in victory.
Anon
She completely screwed up, but I’m not really sure what you are expecting going forward. I say this as someone who voluntarily acknowledges mistakes and owns up to them: I hated when managers would post-mortem every screwup I had.
Anon
I feel like I grew up hearing “ladies, invest in your career and not a man because a career won’t wake up one day and decide it doesn’t love you anymore.” Now, it seems like there are lots of posts on social media saying, “If you pass away, your career will replace you in a day. Only your loved ones will mourn. Invest in the people around you.”
Which do you feel like resonates more with you? Career being the fickle one to not give your life-force to, or relationships (particularly romantic)?
Anon
While I’m alive, I stand a lot better chance of being able to support myself via a career than via a man, so I’m team career (though not my whole working life in one job).
AIMS
I don’t see it as an either/or. My job and career will not mourn me and will very quickly replace me. But I need to be self-supporting and independent because life is unpredictable and you can’t rely always on others, esp. romantic partners (they can leave you, they can die early, etc.). That doesn’t mean you don’t invest in personal relationships! I feel like subscribing to either one too much is not the path to happiness or security in life.
Anon
Agreed. Although I feel like the bigger question is work to live or live to work and I’m very much in the former camp.
Anon
you sum up my thoughts perfectly
NYCer
+1.
anonshmanon
I would add that these two choices leave a lot to be desired. There is also friendship, being a citizen of the world, being content with myself, and a million other things to direct my energy into, and to draw joy from.
Anon
Both of these make it seem like it’s one or the other. It’s not. Don’t fall for trite sayings on the internet, and only invest in a relationship with a person who appreciates your drive.
Tiana
I’d say somewhere in the middle, like most things. Someone posted on /r/relationships asking if she should give up her college degree (in another country) because her boyfriend proposed to her and the answer was universally no – you need to be at least basically set up to support yourself and men don’t come before that. At the same time I knew plenty of big 4 partners (men and women) who were consumed by a job that wouldn’t love them back.
Anon
I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive? You can work to be financially independent and also try to have a rich personal life. You might not be able to totally *maximize* both at the same time, but I think you don’t have to completely sacrifice one for the other.
Anon
I expect different things from my husband and my career. Emotional and financial support do not have to, and in many ways should not, come from the same source.
Anonymous
I’m on team balance. Yes, I want to invest in my relationships but I don’t want to count on a man to support me. That worked out well when I divorced. On the other hand, yes, your organization will not love and support you like family and friends. That has really resonated with me after working so many hours during the pandemic, feeling fried to a crisp, and then needing to back down to a less stressful job. I’m finding time to reinvest in relationships I lost touch with because of pandemic and killer work hours. I think it’s good not to have all your eggs in one basket.
Monday
Similar experience. Everyone needs lots of eggs in many different baskets.
Anon
Co-sign this. I think a happy, fruitful life is a balanced life where people prioritize self-reliance and self-actualization, but also take time and make efforts to create meaningful relationships in their lives. Jobs come and go; relationships ebb and flow; at the end of our lives we all have to live with the choices that we made, that no one else has responsibility for. I have never believed in pouring 100% of myself, and what I have to give, into any one thing. My marriage, my relationship with my son, my friendships, my relationships with my parents and other relatives, my volunteer work, my faith, and my career are all important to me. I feel my life is a happy life because I have all those things, and I have all those things because I never emphasized one to the exclusion of all the rest.
Explorette
I think about this sometimes because I was very career driven in my 20s and 30s, and never had any substantial relationships. Now in my 40s I wonder if I missed out of the relationship piece. But, I think the reason I never had a real relationship was because that wasn’t a driver for me. I get a lot of satisfaction out of my career, and have never had a strong desire for marriage/kids/etc. Yeah, your career will replace you when you die, but so will your loved ones eventually. Life goes on for everyone else. The important thing is you do what fulfills you when you are alive!
Anan
+1 to the last sentence. I think the trick is to not give yourself to careers or relationships that drain your buckets or don’t pay you back emotionally; Instead, pour yourself into work and people (including yourself) than fill up your buckets.
MagicUnicorn
This is a false dichotomy, and also ignores the problem of defining your personal worth and value based solely on your career or your relationships.
Anon
It’s not possible for any one thing to support and sustain you throughout everything that happens in life. You need some level of financial stability, which usually comes through work; some personal passions, which could be work or hobbies, or friend related; and relationships with a combination of family or friends or people you interact with through work (this last one is least reliable but can be really meaningful, especially for people in community oriented jobs like teaching).
Aunt Jamesina
I feel it’s important to be self-sufficient (in the sense of being able to pay my own bills and generally manage my day-to-day stuff) *and* to nurture ties with a network of people who love me. Either pursuit to the exclusion of the other is a recipe for disaster.
Anonymous
Invest in your career enough that you can financially support yourself. Invest in all your relationships enough that you have a full life. It isn’t a career vs man question and ‘relationships’ are not just romantic ones.