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And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Anonymous
Has anybody used or read reviews on Rodan & Fields? I am tempted by the pictures they post on social media, but then I think they may just post the ones that look most impressive. Any thoughts?
anon
Cue the seemingly weekly rants about MLM schemes….
Flats
IIRC Rodan & Fields actually used to be sold at department stores before turning into a MLM?
Anon
I use the Soothe line. I find it helps with my rosacea. I still use a prescription cream pretty regularly on my nose but the rest of my face looks good with just the skincare regimen. It also doesn’t break me out.
It’s a little more expensive but I never found the right combo in drugstore products.
I buy from a friend of a friend. I didn’t even know it was a MLM because the rep has never tried to upsell or recruit me, and doesn’t post about it online.
Betty
I was incredibly suspicious of the whole thing, but my sister is a consultant and my mom offered to pay for my stuff so my sister would have another client. So I said fine. And, 3 months later, I can’t believe I am saying this but my skin has never looked better. Before, I had mild breakouts and an uneven skin tone; now; I can easily go without makeup. I haven’t admitted this to my sister, but it has been great for me.
anon-oh-no
totally agree with this. I was very, very skeptical about R&F. But I have a bunch of friends selling it so I finally gave in. I’ve been using it for about 3 weeks now and there is a remarkable difference.
I was at dinner the other night with my husband, 2 kids, and au pair and I GOT CARDED when ordering a glass of wine. I’m turning 40 in 3 weeks and this is the first time I’ve been carded in about 10 years.
Anonymous
This is so tempting. I want to use the anti-aging stuff.
Anon
Any recommendations for a career counselor in Boston? TIA!
Anonymous
Maryanne Peabody. She’s amazing, really smart and thoughtful.
Stormtrooper
I worked with Rapid Evolution remotely and was very pleased.
http://rapidevolutionllc.com/
Anon
This morning’s thread about animals really left me baffled. Do people really think that pets are “at the same level” as human members of a family? Or was it just trolling?
We always had a dog growing up, and we loved him … but he was a pet. Sometimes I think there’s been a cultural shift in how we view pets. For example, birthday parties.
What have other people noticed?
Senior Attorney
Yes, apparently these days many people think that humans and animals are morally equivalent. I am similarly baffled, but there you have it.
Ethics
Maybe look into some Rowlands or Singer? They are pretty much the foremost authority on ethics and animal autonomy. They have fantastic logical structure and proof. Unfortunately, most people make logical errors such as appealing to tradition or speciesism to justify their lifestyle because confronting it is an uncomfortable thing for most people.
Sarabeth
Haven’t read Rowlands, but Singer does not actually argue that your kid and your pet are morally equivalent. He argues that species should not serve as a bright line delimiting the scope of our moral concern, which is different. I largely agree – and hence am vegan – but I’m pretty sure Peter Singer would be ok with, for example, rehoming a cat that seemed likely to harm your child.
anon
“Singer does not actually argue that your kid and your pet are morally equivalent. He argues that species should not serve as a bright line delimiting the scope of our moral concern, which is different.”
+1
Nailed it.
cbackson
Hm, is speciesism inherently a logical error, or is it simply a different first principle?
Ethics
It’s a logical error because there is nothing inherently valuable about being human. The DNA itself isn’t special, declaring that we are ‘smarter’ doesn’t work either because many animals are smarter than children and those with developmental disabilities. You need a reason to declare something more valuable, which you can’t with humans.
Ethics
Also need to add that potentiality doesn’t work either because there is no guarantee. Since someone will always say “but the human genome has potential”.
cbackson
FWIW, if you are someone who believes that human beings are made in the image and likeness of God, there is an inherent value to being human. There’s an entire community of evangelical vegans/animal rights activists that come from the position not of the moral equality of animals, but of an obligation of human beings (springing from their very difference) to protect and care for other living things (see Matthew Scully’s “Dominion,” which has been very influential in my own evolution in this respect).
Anon
I agree, but at least in ‘Merica, it seems many Christians (except maybe Catholics and Episcopalians) have forgotten this and don’t take the “stewardship” ethic seriously.
Ethics
Well if you are keeping on with Philosophy there is no logical justification for any deity. There is a reason veganism, atheism, and science tends to go together. Most people with any sort of ethical background don’t like engaging with the general public, logical structure isn’t common sense to most people and thus the general population basically live lives that are walking logical fallacies. Plus it’s an awful psychological phenomenon that people get raging mad when confronted with the inconsistencies in their views.
Anon
Agree that there’s a reason those things go together (vegan, science, atheism) and agree most people are walking fallacies and agree actually doing ethics is hard, but don’t understand your point and I’m curious what it is. I’m not cbackston just so you know.
Anonymous
What about hte ability to distinguish right and wrong? (I am not an ethicist; just making stuff up here.)
cbackson
I think your definitions of philosophy and of logic are a bit limited – but that’s a discussion for another day. Maybe try some Aquinas some time?
Sarabeth
It could be a first principle; the argument that philosophers are making is that, for most people, it conflicts logically with other deeply held moral intuitions and first principles. Anything *could* be a first principle, if you are ready to hold it above other moral commitments. Most of us, however, hold other moral commitments (for example, to not inflicting pain) that, Singer shows, are in conflict with speciesism.
Opal
+1 My vet said it best, in the most matter-of-fact tone (when I was evidently too concerned about something minor), “Mrs. Opal. This is a dog. Not a child. A dog.”
Pretty Primadonna
I am also baffled. Birthday parties, “playdates,” medication for depression and anxiety… The lis of things I have noticed goes on…
Anonymous
There is a big difference between dog birthday parties (stupid) and playdates (a stupid word for a normal thing – dog owners hanging out together with their dogs) on the one hand, and medication for depression and anxiety on the other hand. It is a scientific fact that some animals have mental health issues just like humans do. If you think we should treat a dog’s broken leg, I’m not sure why you think we shouldn’t treat a dog’s depression or anxiety.
Anonymous
+1 A dog that’s anxiously chewing on itself and can be treated with a serotonin inhibitor to stop doesn’t seem different than one that is diabetic and needs insulin.
Stupid party hat? Whole different deal.
Anonymous
Wait, you think they aren’t?
Ellen
Yay! Coffee Break! I love coffee break and this black fabric collar necklace! For $22, this is a GREAT buy, Kat, and it will look great on anyone who has light hair, like me and Rosa.
As for the OP, I did not see the morning p’osts on pet’s, but can pipe in now that we always had big dog’s growing up b/c dad brought them home from Germany b/c they were specialy trained German Shepeard’s. They were so smart and dad trained them to do EVERYTHING. He often told us they were smarter then we were, but we knew he was JUST trying to motivate us to do better in school. I was VERY good in school and got Good grades. Rosa tried hard, but she NEVER was as smart as me.
Dad gave the German Shepeard’s steak’s on their birthday’s and he had them cremated after they died and buried them in the family plot on LI next to Great Grammy Tillie, tho the CEMETARY did NOT know he did that. Dad say’s that dust is dust and ashes is ashes, and what the CEMETARY does NOT know cannot hurt them. He was right b/c I see alot of dead squirels on the ground’s and they turn to dust to, so what is the big deal.
I think, OP, that it is fine to love pet’s like peeople b/c pets are loving and do NOT turn on peeople like men do. Pet’s do NOT intentionaly soil our 1000 count sheet’s or vomit all over when they know they can get to the toilet to do that. Also, pet’s do NOT force us to do thing’s sexueal for them, like ungratful men do. This is a lesson for all of the hive. To trust pet’s, but NOT sleezy men. FOOEY!
Anon
There’s lots of anti-kid sentiment on this board so I think placing a dog or cat above a child in hierarchy is par for the course.
I’m a mom of two and we have a couple of cats. My cats are spoiled and we love them but I’d choose my kids any day if it were one or the other.
I’m assuming most of the dogs-are-people-too posters are childless.
Anon
You think there’s “anti-kid” sentiment on these boards? That’s cray.
Anon
Really, you don’t remember the “I hate kids” thread? That was literally anti-kid and there was lots of support for that side of the fence.
Anon
No, I don’t but, not having read it, people are totally entitled not to like being around kids themselves. I agree that sometimes people verge into hating children in general which I don’t support but as far as I can tell, 90% of the posts on this board are about TTC and balancing kids and work.
Anonymous
I think the anti-kid thing is really more of an anti-leaning back thing.
Anonymous
There was an actual “I hate kids” thread. As in, kids are icky and annoying and my friends with kids should keep them in another room so they don’t drool on me.
cbackson
You’re thinking about the person who wanted to know if her friends would dislike her if they knew she hated children, right? Man, that conversation was something (in many respects).
hatingkidscomments
Thread started with anonymous at 10:06am
https://corporette.com/2016/02/04/envelope-shoulder-tee/#comments
Anon
Okay, that seemed like someone who interacted perfectly fine with their BFF’s kids but who isn’t themselves a kid person and who didn’t sugarcoat it. HEAVEN FORFEND.
Kel
No, not cray. An entirely new and separate space had to be created to discuss pregnancy and parenting. All other subjects can be beaten to death on this page —it’s fine to discuss weekly how one is supposed to respond to a wedding invitation, for example—but if you post of pregnancy or working mom issues you get shut down quickly.
Anonymous
I’m not disagreeing with your larger point, but I don’t think the separate parenting space had to be created because of anti-kid sentiment here. Kat created that space, and then all of a sudden there was a lot of backlash to talking about kid stuff here, because “take it over to c-r e t t e moms.” I don’t agree with the idea that kid stuff shouldn’t be discussed on the main page, but the shutting down of kid threads came after the moms s i t e was already in existence.
Anon
Are you kidding me? There are pregnancy and working mom posts all over this site. There’s at least one below which nobody shut down at all. Kat created the new site because she thought it was a good way to make more money via additional ad revenue not out of some public service to people who weren’t allowed to talk here.
cbackson
Look, it’s not anti-kids to want there to be some space for working women that isn’t all about being a pregnant or working mom. Honestly, there’s a lack of that space out there for women at a certain professional level and age. As someone who’s very involved with women’s programming, I can’t tell you how often I get requests (often from working mothers!) to please, please, please offer lunch discussions/speakers/meetups on women’s issues *beyond* the pregnancy/working mom stuff. I’m not one of those people who thinks that pregnancy/working mother issues should never be mentioned here, but yes, I am glad that this board is no longer so dominated by questions about pumping/maternity leave/managing children’s schedules as it once was.
Anon
To your point, PLEASE Kat, create a weddings board. Sick sick sick of all the wedding crap.
Or at least a FAQ
Q: I was invited to a wedding. Do I need to go?
A: No.
Anon
Really, do the BF/single lady drama threads, the wedding threads, the pregnancy and baby threads, the divorce threads, the late-in-life single threads all bother you? No one is in any of those personal categories forever (although it can fee like it!) and I like that we discuss them all on this site BECAUSE, we are dealing with those issues as high achieving and/or earning woman. My college roomy who is a part time nurse just won’t get it all but the women here often will. I’m married with kids, but don’t mind hearing about a single woman’s hook up issues or an engaged ladies’ in-law drama. I dint want to only discuss jobs, recipes, restaurants and fashion – who even gives a rats ass about fashion anyway!
Wordy
+1
Ha! Love this idea!
OP
I was wondering about the childless-correlation as well. I’m sure there’s nothing true across the board.
I was most shocked that some people give pets their own rooms.
Oh well. To each her own!
lost academic
I don’t think this is particularly unusual or specific to people who just have pets and elevate them above everyone else or their children. In the houses in which we’ve had a room with no other purpose, the pet stuff just sort of accumulated there anyway – which is nice because it meant it wasn’t all over the house, which we felt was worse.
Wildkitten
Yup. My cat has his own room but it’s also the home office and guest room and gym.
CountC
I have two cat rooms! A cat room dedicated solely to the fosters and a cat room/painting studio/office. It’s nice to be able to tuck the litter boxes out of the living spaces in which I would have company and where I sleep.
Aunt Jamesina
My dog lets us live in his house.
Walnut
Having a dog room was definitely a plus when we bought our current house. My dog is a counter surfer and furniture sleeper when left unattended, so a full room is a good alternative to a kennel. It’s also nice that we can keep the dog food, bowls and dog related accessories out of the rest of our house.
This morning's OP
Ours sort of developed that way; it wasn’t like we went house hunting and just HAD to have a house big enough for the cat to have his own room. Our house is around 4k sq feet with 5 bedrooms and we don’t need them all right now – master, office, guest, nursery, and the smallest room is the cat’s/boxes we’ve never managed to unpack. The finished basement is the man cave and gym. If we were living in a HCOL area, the cat would not have his own room. He’s had his own bathroom for years though. I don’t ever want to share a bathroom with my cat again.
Oh yes
I don’t feel there is an anti-kid sentiment on this board… Ask A Manager on the other hand!!! The usual crowd there sure puts pets at the same level as children (if not above)
Wildkitten
My pit bull isn’t small but I do think there is a bit of this going on: http://qz.com/197416/americans-are-having-dogs-instead-of-babies/
Anonymous
I don’t think a dog is at the same level as a child, but I do consider my dog a member of my family and my attitude that my dog is one of my babies didn’t shift when I had a child. Just like having a second kid doesn’t make you love the first kid any less, having a child did not make me love my dog less (if anything it made me love her more, because she is such a good protector of my baby).
I would re-home a dog if I was completely unable to fix its aggressive tendencies. But I think this is absolutely a last resort and many people on the morning thread were being way too cavalier in saying “oh just return the pet.” I believe that adopting a living thing is a lifetime commitment, and would try anything and everything that I could literally afford, including obedience training, medication, behavioral therapy, and physical separation (including building an addition to the house if I could afford it), before giving up a dog. If all of that failed, I would search high and low and ask all my acquaintances and friends of friends to try to find it a loving home, rather than dropping it off at a shelter. I am disgusted by people who drop a pet, especially a generally loving pet of many years, like a hot potato because it acts aggressive once, without doing anything to try to fix the problem.
mascot
I pretty much agree with all of this. Pets and kids can live in harmony, but it can take ongoing work to make that happen.
Anonymous
Nobody was just saying “Oh, just return the pet.” They were warning the OP that any person who has an aggressive pet and a child needs to be prepared for the fact that she might have to decide to return the pet to protect the child, if other measures are inadequate to ensure the child’s safety.
Anon
People were *actually* saying the OP had to delay having children because she has a cranky 14 year old cat.
Having kids is one of life’s most major decisions. I certainly wouldn’t base it on a cat.
cbackson
Well, that was because the OP didn’t seem to be realistic about what she was facing. I think some of those were reality-check comments (i.e., if you can’t handle what it will take to separate kid and cat, then you either need to not have the kid or not have the cat).
This morning's OP
Yeah I was pretty surprised by some of those comments. DH saw what happened with the cat and baby. He thinks it’s nbd and I’m borrowing tomorrow’s problems. If I went home and told him I want to hold off TTC until the cat dies (which very well could be 5+ years), he would legit have me committed.
Anon
OP Your pre-kid anxiety is normal but you probably are transferring some anxiety onto the cat situation. Maybe think about what might actually be worrying you about having kids.
Anonymous
I also think some of the comments from the earlier thread today were thinking more of the dangers of a dog than cats…. If I had an aggressive dog and a baby, yes, I’d probably rehome the dog if nothing else worked. But an aggressive cat isn’t exactly likely to seriously injure or kill a baby like a dog can. A cat’s more likely to scratch a few times and then run away and hide. Painful, potentially dangerous, but not nearly on the same level of threat as an aggressive dog.
NYtoCO
To this morning’s OP– people were suggesting that you wait to TTC if you were completely, without-question not willing to consider rehoming your cat if it became absolutely necessary. People were taking issue with your inability to consider the (however remote) possibility that your cat and child might be incompatible to living in the same house. You’re obviously not going to be rehoming your kid. People wanted to hear that you would consider the possibility that your cat might present a safety issue to your child. Nobody actually thinks it’s a good idea to wait to TTC because of a cat.
@NYtoCO
Yes, and that’s ridiculous. It’s a cat. It’s not going to maul a baby to death. If the baby antagonizes the cat and gets scratched as a result, then the baby will learn to not antagonize the cat. The whole, don’t have a baby if you have something in your home that could potentially harm a hair on its precious little head, tone of the thread was absolutely insane. While you’re at it, get rid of your TV because it might fall and hit your baby. Don’t have gas & electric hooked up to your house because it might start a fire. Don’t leave your house because you might bring germs in from the outside. Actually, you know what, just don’t have any babies period because you can’t 100% guarantee that they will never experience any unpleasantness in their lives.
Em
@NYtoCo, yeah. I think the biggest issue here is that people don’t understand that cats aren’t dogs. Unless you actually have a rescue cheetah, it’ll be fine.
Spirograph
I want a rescue cheetah.
And I missed the morning thread, but yes, OP, you are borrowing trouble and your husband would be right to “wtf?!” the idea that you postpone kids until your cranky cat dies. My cranky old cat managed to peacefully coexist with my kid until her (the cat’s) death.
Anonymous
Pre-kid, I would anthropomorphize my dog. Post-kid, I still do it but to a much lesser degree. And I was a tiny bit surprised by how much of a shift I felt in my feelings towards my dog once I had a baby. But I do think that you have a moral obligation to your pet and if a living situation with a child becomes untenable then you need to figure out an alternative, whether that’s keeping them apart by restricting the pet’s access to certain parts of the house or re-homing them. I knew this pre-kid too, but that drive to protect your child will override any pre-kid hesitation.
Anon
Mom and dog owner. There’s a difference between giving animal life respect (even as much respect as you’d give people) and giving animals birthday parties and the like (which I’d say is self reflective and aggrandizing behavior). I suppose if a train were barreling toward a puppy and a baby and I could only save one, it would be the baby, but short of whatever preference that is for human life, what’s repugnant about elevating animal life?
Anonymous
+1
Anonymous
Agreed.
Anonymous
What I don’t understand is the idea that the pet owner’s obligation to keep an aggressive animal should exceed her obligation to protect her child. That isn’t just saying the animal is equal to a human, it’s putting the animal above a human.
Lyssa
I agree.
FWIW, I don’t really even see a problem with dog birthday parties. I’ve never had one or been to one, but if someone were to throw one, I’d just assume that it was just a silly fun idea. Hey, dogs are fun, parties are fun, why not?
This is completely different IMO from an issue involving real danger to a vulnerable person. With regards to people talking about doing everything that they can to fix the animal on that issue, sure, that sounds good from a distance, but it’s worth pointing out that animals (and children) are unpredictable – even if the problem appears fixed, you might not be able to take the risk. Obviously, that doesn’t mean that you cast the animal out if it looks at the kid the wrong way, but at some point, you have to acknowledge that you can’t realistically be as careful as you would need to be to be secure.
SC
+1. I’ve been to a dog birthday party, and it was just a silly party that involved about a dozen friends sitting around eating and drinking. They had a theme based on a long-running joke about the dog’s pre-rescue background, and there was cake and alcohol. What’s not to like? And, honestly, DH and I are throwing a birthday party for our baby’s first birthday next month, and there’s no more “point” to that than there is to throwing a dog a birthday party. It’s just an excuse to get some friends and family together, have some cake and champagne, and celebrate that we kept a human being alive for a year.
As for the more substantive issues, I think re-homing should be a last resort, but I also agree that potential parents should recognize it as an option. Seriously, I doubt there’s that much disagreement here about this. Most of us probably agree that owners should try whatever they can to avoid re-homing, and most of us probably agree that it’s unrealistic to keep an aggressive animal around a baby, unless physical separation is a feasible option.
FWIW, I have 2 cats. They were a little nervous, and felt very neglected, when we first brought our baby home. One cat has warmed up to him completely and lets him “pet” her, including pulling her tail and grabbing her fur. She literally purrs through it. If she’s not into it, she just runs away and jumps onto something high. The other cat just ignores the baby now, but he ignores everyone, so that’s normal.
Anon
The dog wedding episode of Broad City is so much fun :)
Anon
I think almost no people were suggesting there’s a moral/ethical obligation to keep an animal around a child it may harm. That’s bad for the dog too after all. With rescue dogs, you want to give them an environment they have a strong chance of thriving in and not one that they have trouble dealing with without resorting to aggression. Dog and baby deserve different environments. As an aside, inexperienced people without the proper resources rescue dogs all the time – and its problematic. I think we overly-praise people’s morals/ethics just for rescuing – you’re not a saint just for rescuing an animal and a huge part of the exercise of fostering or rescuing is being willing to adapt per the needs of the animal and your community. Changing an animal’s home isn’t evil.
anon
I agree that there’s a trend toward treating pets as family and away from pets as pets/property. On the one hand, I think this is great- I think this reflects that society is moving away from obvious animal cruelty and paying more attention to animal welfare in general. The emotional intelligence of our pets has been recognized and is respected, and people aren’t just concerned with animal’s physical welfare, but also psychological. But on the whole, I don’t think that most people *really* think that pets and human family members are on the same level. I get that people love their pets and love to dote on them, and especially for people who don’t have kids, there’s a lot of space to shower a living creature with love, and that’s great. Sometimes it seems sort of silly/excessive (like the use of the term “furbabies” which just makes me roll my eyes). That said, I think that most people are still grounded in the reality that pets are NOT the same as people. I think that “just ugh’s” attitude this morning is extreme and that most people don’t elevate a dog’s need not to “feel abandoned” over a child’s life.
I know a lot of my well-off peers that will pay a lot of money to keep pets healthy or to perform surgery on them, etc. But most of these people put a cap on the dollars they’d spend for medical treatment ($1,000? $5,000? $10,000?). But would you ever put a cap on the amount of money you’d spend to save your child or partner or parent? The reality of the situation is that people place a primacy on the lives of others who share in the human experience. Unlike your grandmother who needs a $40,000 procedure to survive 10 more years, a dog has no interest in living out 1 more year of its life (especially if it must suffer while doing so) so that it can see its owner’s grandchild be born. It has an interest in not dying like any living thing does, but it does not value its life in the same way humans do. A dog does have an interest in avoiding suffering, and being happy and safe. That’s why we allow humans to suffer to endure treatments that will ultimately prolong the lives that they and we value, but we consider it cruel to force a dog to endure years of painful treatments to live just a little longer.
Country Mouse, City Mouse
I love my spoiled indoor-only cats, but it’s been a very obvious cultural shift in the last 20 or so years… One of my cats is on Rx cat food due to kitty-IBD, and I was just thinking the other day that if that had happened to one of my childhood pets, little fluffy would be put to sleep rather than my parents paying $2,000 in vet bills and then for a lifetime of special food that costs triple the normal grocery store food.
Of course part of that might be my change in perception because I grew up in the country and we had country pets. Three big dogs and two cats and they all lived outside, but were allowed to sleep in the garage when it was cold. They ran around in the fields around our house. It was just so different. I didnt realize that people bought special bags to put their dog’s poop in before I moved to the city. All the dogs I knew pooped outside and it wasnt cleaned up, because they had multiple acres to roam across. I think as we become increasingly urban and animals become 100% useless other than as companions, rather than as hunting assistance or vermin killers … its natural that the way we see them has changed.
Anonymous
I think it’s cultural, and a sign that we are living easier, more sheltered lives than ever before. I’m not saying that with a critical eye – it’s actually nice that so many people are well off and in a place where they can choose to think of their dog as a baby or a special companion. I think though, that when you have to deal with more harsh realities, or even if you just grow up on a working farm, you just won’t see your dog as a baby because it is an animal and you are used to animals existing in a different context than people, even as pets. Also, for me I just don’t see the difference between a dog and a pig or other animals – for some people, that turns them to a life of veganism. For me, I just don’t think any animal is that special. Different strokes for different folks. I do think though, that if you would lean toward keeping an aggressive pet who is harming your baby, you probably do not have a baby and haven’t experienced that instinctual urge that would make you get rid of the pet. Humans are animals, too.
JJ
+1. This is exactly what I think, as well. And we currently own 3 rescued dogs.
Anon
+1 my mom grew up on a farm and they didn’t even name their cats. She doesn’t live on a farm anymore and has cats, but thinks it’s crazy that people have litter boxes and inside cats.
I’m sure many of you would have her sent to jail.
Bonnie
Our animals are part of our family. The comments about getting rid of pets bother me because when you adopt a put, you take on that obligation until the pet dies. It is unconscionable to me to just return a pet if they no longer fit in your life. Older, surrendered, pets are most likely going to be euthanized.
Anonymous
Apparently it’s ok to say you hate kids but not acceptable to say you hate dogs.
Burnt out
Not sure if I am venting or looking for advice. Advice would be welcome if anyone has it.
My husband and I are both fourth year associates at (separate) Biglaw firms. We have been married for four years and we have an almost seven month old son.
Our lives seem to be work and sleep. We have a cook/grocery shopper, a housekeeper, a laundress, a driver and a live in nanny for our son. We also have an automated pair who comes on two days a week to help with our son and some stuff around the house when everyone else is off. We barely see our son or each other and while we look like we have it all on the outside all we actually do is go to work or go home and sleep. We have to pay people to do everything else so there is order and not chaos.
The only debt we have is student loans. We have been throwing everything we have at them after we pay our rent and all our other expenses. The loans will be fully paid in June. We are both so burnt out and hate our lives so much that we are considering leaving law and the city and moving back upstate to be closer to our families. We can’t keep up like this. Something is going to live and even once the loans are paid off we can’t just fire all the people we have helping us or our lives will be in chaos. It’s so bad and I don’t know how we got here.
Wow
I’m really sorry. I agree that this is absolutely not sustainable and it’s very likely that at least 1 of you (and probably both of you since you hate your job so much) need to find something else to do. I have two little ones and did Big Law as well, but the only thing we outsourced was housecleaning and occassional date night babysitting.
In the short term, take a day or two off. Hang out with your son or just do something for yourself. Longer term, can you work 60%? 80% If you’re in BigLaw these types of arrangements are very typical (pretty much every young mom in my litigation practice worked on a part-time schedule). Is this an option?
I’m sure you know this, but look for another job asap. Use a legal recruiter if you think that would help. You need to get out. Life is too short and your child is only a child once.
Anon
“Automated pair” = best autocorrect ever. I am picturing Rosie from The Jetsons except younger and with accented English :)
Senior Attorney
Yes! That made my morning!
Coach Laura
Me too!
Em
Yeah, this is definitely find new jobs time, even though your loans aren’t paid off. When you don’t have to pay five employees, you’ll have the money to pay your loans on lower salaries.
anon
Why are you working so many hours? You should start there. You can be a 4th year associate in big law and work, say, 8-7. That would give you time in the morning to have breakfast with your kid, and time in the evening to feed/spend time with your kid and each other, and even do another hour or so of work. I don’t get it. Maybe you just need a new firm? What about weekends- aren’t you spending time together/with baby on weekends? You don’t have to do any shopping, cleaning, cooking, or it sounds like any other errands.
Anonymous
But babies and small kids often sleep 11-12 hours overnight (excluding waking to feed), so if they work 8-7 and have even a modest 20 minute commute – they’re getting maybe a half hour in the morning and a half hour in the evening with baby. Many Biglaw jobs involve some weekend work – if that has to happen at a time other than when baby is napping (time zone issues/other reason), there wouldn’t necessarily be a lot of time then either.
SC
+1. My 10-month-old wakes up around 7:30/8:00 and goes to bed at 7:30. I have a 20-minute commute. If I worked 8-7, I would never see him. FWIW, I’m in a large regional law firm, and I work 9:30-6, plus another 2-3 hours about 3 nights a week and average about 5 hours per weekend (sometimes none, sometimes a full day, but average).
Lkl
Yep. Working 8-7 would mean I saw my 1 year old zero minutes per day since commute is 45-60 minutes.
Anonymous
I think one or both of you should go part-time immediately. It’s an option at pretty much every Big Law firm. It may hurt your long-term career prospects, but certainly not as much as quitting your job. Once you’re less frazzled you can think about what your next steps will be and whether you want to try to find better work-life balance as a lawyer or leave the law entirely.
anon
Absolutely. One of you goes part time immediately. That person monitors available jobs for both of you, so you can apply to positions that demand less time. That could be government, non-profit, in-house, a firm with more flexible hours — whatever you’ll enjoy that will eat less of your life. Or that person starts looking for jobs upstate. You’ve done a great job getting those loans paid; now you have freedom to make great, though-out choices.
Anonymous
It doesn’t matter how you got here, just figure out where you want to be. It may seem overwhelming right now but you will have your loans paid off very soon and that gives you lots of options.
In your shoes, I would look for jobs and move upstate to be near family and have a slower pace of life but I also live in a small city so I don’t miss the benefits of living in a big city.
Life isn’t a race that you win by having a fancy job, you win by being happy. If that means a fancy biglaw job – that’s 100% a valid choice – but opting to move upstate for family and a slower pace is also 100% valid.
Albany
I’m from New York, so I assume automatically that Upstate means Upstate New York.
Come move to Albany!!! I know lots of lawyers who work for the State or work in Government who don’t make a ton of money but work 40-45 hours a week and have real lives. They are very smart and do work that they feel good about and are proud of. They don’t make BigLaw money, but have retirement savings and take vacations and own houses.
You can buy a really nice house with a short commute for $350k. You’re close enough to hop on the train and be in New York in 2 1/2 hours or be in Boston by car in 2 1/2 hours.
People think of Upstate NY as crummy, dead towns but really there are lots of nice college towns and very livable places. Looking around my neighborhood, we have several transplants from NY and DC who are happy with the work/life balance that they’ve been able to achieve.
Anonymous
I grew up in Albany and it is so surprising to me to read this because I hate/d it so much, and to me it totally seems like a dead town. I only go back to hang out with my close to retirement age parents so I don’t have much perspective – is it better now? When I was growing up it was all highway overpasses and shopping malls.
Anonymous
Also realize this may have come off bitchy, sorry, I did not mean it that way. Genuinely curious to hear about the city from the perspective of someone besides my parents!
Albany
I didn’t grow up around here and can understand what you are saying. Have you been to Saratoga lately? It’s lovely. I could see being a kid in Albany and just knowing the Mall plus the highway, but there are great restaurants and bars in the Albany/Troy/Schtdy area, great farmers’ markets and in addition to getting the big touring acts, there’s a ton of free music and free theatre if that’s more your jam. There’s also a really active outdoors community including lots of runners, kayakers, hikers, cyclists, etc.
For me, activities are much more enjoyable when you have people to do them with. I’ve lived in a few places, including NYC and New England and have found that this area has been the easiest to make friends as an adult. As I’m sure we’ve all discussed, making friends after college is flat out hard. Husband and I moved here for work and have developed a great network of friends who are in the same life-place and very happy to go hiking or have brunch (or better, trade off babysitting so the other couple can go out to dinner!).
Albany
I should also add, this was the ‘second choice’ city for us… Well, maybe third? Fourth? Husband and I realized that we could have a very high quality of life in a smaller city on our income whereas we’d be strained middle-class with long irritating commutes to get a similar lifestyle in most other major cities.
We’re very happy with our choice at this point and I’m happy to encourage people to think outside the box and consider other smaller cities in the Northeast. Burlington, VT is lovely, as is Portland, ME, and I’ve heard awesome things about Pittsburg.
Another Alb Atty
Also grew up in the area and I totally understand your question. There is actually so much more to do here when you have autonomy and a car (vs. being a suburban stranded teenager, which I was!) — really great entertainment venues that attract all kinds of talent (SPAC, Helsinki, Proctors, Palace, Rev Hall), new restaurants popping up all over the place (Troy, Schnectady, Hudson, Saratoga) and new businesses bringing interesting people to the area. Plus, there are so many other places to go from Albany, 3 hours to Montreal, Boston, NYC, easy access to ski/winter areas, Lake George (ADK in general all summer) (yes I’ve done day/weekend trips to all of those places in the last year).
I swear I don’t work for “I love NY” or the local chamber of commerce! I’m booked solid with events and places to go for the next 3 months. There’s stuff to do here — you just have to look.
Anon
Big law lateral here. Sounds like the big issue is finding time to plan your exit and do it well rather than poorly. Can either of you work with these firms to take extended leave Or go on reduced hours so there’s time to job search and plan the transitions and next stage? Don’t tell the firms you may exit – just say you need more time with you kid. If the firms won’t help, then short of malpractice and endangering your reputation, stop being great associates – give work away to others, etc and use the time to plan your exit/transition. The sooner you have a realistic plan, the more you’ll be able to give your “staff” advance warning. Help your staff network with your current work/social network to find alternative work. Good luck!!!
Anonymous
I used to be a nanny for a family like yours. It broke my heart seeing how little time my bosses spent with their children, and how little they knew them. Your kids are only this age once. If you have the ability to change jobs/move/change lifestyle, you need to take advantage of it.
SA
Not helpful.
CHJ
I’m with everyone else – you don’t need to live like this. It definitely sounds like you are in NYC, which is one of the toughest places to practice law. Any reason why you can’t move back upstate? No need to quit the law altogether – a lot of people practice law in smaller markets with a much better lifestyle. Or if upstate makes you sad, what about Boston? It’s lovely here and the legal market is much more sane. Or if you really want to stay in NYC, can one of you go part-time?
Listen to your gut on this one. Your gut is telling you to make a change.
Anonymous
How many hours are you billing?
I am a BigLaw partner with small kids, and have been billing roughly 2100 a year for most of my career, with the odd exception here and there, and I see my family every night and almost all weekend.
It sounds like:
-You are billing too much, or
-You are losing time when at work
As a working parent, I strive to bill for every second I am in the office if possible. Obviously I have a ton of non billable stuff like business development, committees, mentoring, etc., but I try to organize my life very carefully so I don’t lose any time. For example:
-All lunches that are not professional lunches are eaten at my desk while working.
-If I have a conference call I mostly can just listen in on, I put in on my headphones and walk on the treadmill so i am simultaneously getting exercise
-I work from home once a week when possible to save the hour of commuting
Do you mostly bill for every minute you are in the office? I just don’t see how it is possible to never see your kid sunless you are billing like 3000
Anonymous
Some more specific color: I calculate that in order to meet my billables, if I take 2 long vacations a year, and all holidays off, I have to bill roughly 8.6 hours a day. I usually bill about 7.5 at the office, roughly between the hours of 9:30-5:30, and then another hour at night after kids are in bed. Sometimes I stay up and work 2 extra hours. BUt you get the picture.
Anonymous
If you are in the office for 8 hours a day and billing 7.5 you are the most efficient person I’ve ever met. That kind of realization is almost impossible for most people unless you work on a single matter with no billable hour cap.
Anonymous
+1 It’s great that you’re able to be that efficient but I’m not sure it’s realistic for most and there is very little room for flex – when daycare calls and you need to pick up sick baby, or you’re back to work and still pumping 2-3x a day or your parent is elderly and you need to answer when they call in case it’s a serious health issue. Consistently billing 7.5 hours of an 8 hour day is a very challenging target to hit every work day all year long.
Anonymous
Major side-eye. Billing 7.5 hours in an 8 hour day on a consistent basis would make you the Unicorn of lawyers.
Anonymous
Do not be so skeptical of someone who is in the office for 8 hours billing 7.5. It really is possible. I do it, and many of my partners with kids do it too. Trust me, when you are fiercely motivated by the desire to get home to your kids, then you make it happen. I have 7 extremely active cases and I try not to waste a second. If it’s between seeing my son and Facebook, I choose to see my son.
As for having to run out for the day care closure, that’s not an issue with a live-in nanny as the OP has. She has all the systems in place to support her, which is why i am trying to encourage her to look at the workplace habits and fix the situation if she can, before giving up.
This website is the only one I read when at work, and I only do it during the rare lull, for 5-10 mins at a time once or twice a week. Otherwise, no websites, no facebook, nothing. I don’t browse the web or gossip in other people’s offices.
I don’t expect everyone to be this way and i don’t give the “major side-eye” to people who want to browse the web or go out for nice lunches or chat with friends when at work. That sounds lovely too. You do you. But you don’t need to be resentful of people who make other choices. It’s been working for me for 10 years! Now back to billing . . . . That was my web time for the day!
Anonymous
this. I bill most of my time in the office every day. I gets easier to do as you become more senior, and some of it depends on the type of cases you have, but it can be done.
Anonymous
Really? I’ve heard the opposite. As a junior associate you are doing pretty much all billable work, and you probably have days where you’re doing nothing but doc review so you can bill every minute in the office, minus food and bathroom breaks. But as you get more senior you have more business development, professional development, etc. stuff to do, as well as more matters to shift between and more time to spend supervising and mentoring others.
Anonymous
At least for me, there’s a lot of work I have to do that is non-billable, but I’m definitely required to do: writing newsletters, checking new regs, looking for filings. This can be a case of YPGMV.
Anonymous
+1 I spent 5 years in biglaw and also would regularly bill 7.5 hours for 8 hours in the office. I came in, did my work, ate lunch at my desk, left. On slower days, I’d look at the internet, visit with friends, etc., but if I wanted to get the work in, then I could and I did. It drives me nuts when people d**k around all day and then stay late and complain about it and/or think that makes them look good (and it really drives me nuts when that ploy works on my bosses). Sorry I’m efficient.
But really – check your billing practices, make sure you’re not losing time. Maybe I spend 2 minutes answering an email, but if I do that 15 times a day, then that’s .5. If I was trying to figure out how to word something, or solve something, while I was in the bathroom or walking to lunch, I counted that too. I also found ways to bill while commuting (subway – I’d respond to emails, read documents, etc.). Maximize your time.
And is no one else the slightest bit surprised by the staff the OP has? I mean, a nanny and housekeeper – okay, but a cook and a driver? A “laundress”? Are you kidding me with this? Are you the Earl of Grantham?
Anonymous
That made me think this post could be fake, because I don’t understand what a launderess means, and who has a driver in this day and age unless you mean Uber?
Anon
That’s great you could stick to just billable hours, but as a partner, I have a minimum of 2.5 hours of non-billable meetings a week, not to mention recruiting, training and mentoring responsibilities, business development and CLE (off the top of my head). I eat lunch at my desk any day I don’t have a business lunch, but I would have to bill every second of my time outside of those meetings to bill 7.5 hours out of 8 at the office over the course of a week.
Fwiw, I agree 100% that those people who stroll in at 11 and then complain that they have to work late need to get some perspective (I know, many of them come in late *because* they had to work late, but when I come in at 8 and leave at 11, I don’t have too much sympathy). But not everyone who spends more hours at work than they can bill is inefficient. Some of us are doing important work that just isn’t billable.
Boggled
If by laundress you mean you drop your laundry off at the corner laundromat, if by cook, you mean seamless, and if by driver you mean uber, then, okay – I’m with ya. If not – I’m boggled.
Anonymous
I suspect the original post is not real, unfortunately. The number of staff and the word choice are both contributors to the suspicion.
Anonymous
I was in a similar position (without the staff) and decided to shift my schedule and see if anyone complained. Barring an emergency, I leave at 5:30 every night (and get online again after my kid goes to sleep) and no one gives me side eye. I will bill between 2500 and 2600 hours this year and have been told I will make partner next year. I see my kid for 2 hours each night and between half an hour and an hour each morning. I am fortunate to work with people who value me and aren’t manifestly unreasonable — I realize that is far from the big law norm. A schedule shift may not be possible for you, but I would urge you to consider it — I was terrified that leaving for dinner would result in me being mommy-tracked. I don’t get as much sleep as I should or have as much me time as I would like, but deciding to leave early enough so I could spend meaningful time with my kid has enabled me to feel like I am keeping the balls in the air well enough to stay in big law at least for a few more years.
Betty
Any recommendations for gluten free (Celiac Disease) meal delivery or planning services?
Catlady
Check out some paleo-type companies, like Kettlebell Kitchen and the like.
Anonymous
My town had an excellent Japanese grocery/fish butcher so I order wild salmon for sashimi and rice/rice cakes/gluten free tamari etc
CHJ
Cooksmarts has a gluten-free option in their meal plans. There’s also a feature to link the grocery list to grocery delivery, but I’ve never tried it.
Celia
It’s really easy to be GF at home. You can make most meals without flour, and then you can buy the desert type things you don’t bake. I learned to substitute corn starch for flour in sauces (not a 1:1, so experiment). You can get several types of rice noodle (penne, spaghetti, linguine, rotelli, etc.) at most supermarkets.
lost academic
Reposting from this morning…
I am looking for a lawyer that deals with specific problems relating to the Global Entry program and revocations. Would greatly appreciate contact information/referrals. (Not looking for people who just have it, sorry.)
Wildkitten
Another idea – have you called your Congresswoman? Sometimes they can fix things like that.
lost academic
Might be able to try this in addition, but quite frankly, due to some of the specific details I can’t get into, it’s not a good first step. I was really hoping someone here was such an expert out periodically knew someone else… Guess not.
Anon
You might find the Flyertalk Trusted Travelers forum helpful: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trusted-travelers-732/
lost academic
No, sorry, this isn’t a laymen’s issue anymore. We need an actual lawyer.
Anonymous
I’d be surprised if this was something you could contest with an actual lawyer. I thought Global Entry was kind of a privilege, not a right, deal. They’re not denying anybody the right to enter and leave the country if they don’t let you in to the program.
lost academic
Yes, in fact, it is. We know enough about the situation and the program to know that we now need a lawyer.
Anon
How do I move past regret? I did all the things I was supposed to do to get what I wanted – HYP undergrad, ivy law, 8+ yrs grinding it out in NYC biglaw and didn’t make partner and couldn’t get in anywhere else so then I was unemployed for 18 months. It happens, I landed in a small city in the south in the govt in a job I hate — and yet had to take it. All I can think about my prior life – 8 yrs in NYC, school etc is – it was a waste of time that got me a dead end job. I thought I’d get over it with time and a yr later – I’m still miserable. I don’t want to go down the therapy road – is there some thought or something I can do to feel better? FWIW – I do like my new city (Charlotte) so this isn’t an NYC thing but a professional disappointment thing.
Anon
I can imagine how tough that was for you and I’m sorry you had to go through it. I know that kind of thing tries your confidence but I think now is the time to look for a non dead-end job. You clearly have the credentials but just had a stretch of bad luck; someone who could spend 8+ yours in Biglaw is not unemployable for other interesting professional opportunities in whatever city they want. And you’re employed now; you have the time to look.
Anonymous
Can you look for a new job? If you hate your job, it’s probably spilling over and making you generally unhappy (and making you more nostalgic for the good old Big Law days). I suspect if you had a job you enjoyed, it would be much easier for you to let go of the past. And I’m not a big therapy person in general but I think it would probably help in your situation.
Shopaholic
Is there a reason why you don’t want to go down the therapy route? I was in therapy for some other things and talking about my job/career really helped me reframe the way I look at things, and have definitely helped make me happier in my current job.
CountC
It could be helpful to redefine success. It sounds like you are focusing on the part you don’t like (not making partner, being unemployed), versus focusing on all of the great things (your education, surviving in BL for 8 years, your legal experience). Sure you are in a job you hate right now, but that doesn’t mean you will be in a job you hate forever (if you take action to make it so). Lots of smart, capable people have gone through periods of unemployment – it doesn’t make them any less smart or capable. People spend time on things that don’t pan out quite frequently. It doesn’t mean THEY are failures, it means that one particular thing didn’t workout. Try not to define yourself by your profession, but instead by what makes you Anon at 2:25 pm.
I bailed on my “fancy” regional Bl job after two years, despite graduating high in my class and being the only one in my graduating class to land that type of job. I bailed on my gov’t job after two years because it was a crazy toxic environment. I putzed around for the next two years doing everything from substitute teaching 5th grade to real estate. Now I work in a JD-preferred position that I am sure some people would look down on. Do I make 6 figures, no, but I work with awesome people, I use my legal training, I make a good salary, I own a home, and I have time to have a life and see my friends. I used to think I HAD to make partner because it was the only way I could feel like I had truly succeeded. It took me some therapy (I know you don’t want to do that, but), some time futzing around with other things, and some introspection to realize that definition of success made me miserable. My new definition of success is doing really good work, being respected at work, being respected by my close friends and family, and doing things I love in my spare time.
See if you can work on shifting your view of success, that may help.
Senior Attorney
I can relate. A while back I didn’t get a big job that I had my heart set on, and it took me a good couple of years to get over it. Quite honestly it still stings and I don’t think I’ll ever completely get over it. Past it, yes. Over it, maybe not. So a year out from a huge disappointment like this isn’t really all that long in the scheme of things.
Strangely, the thing that helped the most was reapplying for the same big job, even though I was pretty sure nothing would come of it (which it didn’t). For some reason just going through the motions a second time took the sting out of the rejection the first time. Crazy, but there you have it. So yes, look for a non-dead-end job.
And don’t be so quick to dismiss therapy. It worked wonders for me on a variety of issues including this one.
Anon
R u single in Charlotte? I think that could be hard and also contribute to bad feelings, esp when it’s much easier to be single in NYC (maybe easier than being married!). My brother in law and my husband’s cousin are highly educated singles in Charlotte and they struggle and want to get out. I lived in a similar city for about 2 years as a single and got used to it. I found hobbies and worked out all the time, but it’s not for everyone.
QC biglaw anon
CWT CLT is always hiring. Not saying that going back into BigLaw ought to be your thing, but sometimes having that title helps with the self-worth. Then you can plan your escape, this time on your terms, possibly to a cushy 9-5 govt job in a low COL city like . . . Charlotte.
Maybe it’s not your location, but your perspective, ya know?
p.s. if you have time, maybe golf a little or play some tennis. The odds will be in your favor and it may cure the bored-in-CLT blues.
Anon
Original poster – I know everyone always says “redefine success,” there’s more to life than partnership, take this time to date, play golf etc. BUT does that mean the dream of being a practicing litigator in a client focused role is over?? I know I should WANT all those things but what made me happy was working 24-7, being with clients, mentoring etc. I realize it’s a sad life to go home alone and to look forward to work – but it was my life and work was busy enough that it didn’t matter.
Anonymous
Why would the dream of being a practicing litigator and working with clients be over? There are so many places you can be a litigator besides Big Law – your own practice, small or midsize law, government, non-profit. For that matter, I’m not sure why going back to Big Law is not an option. Lots of people get passed over for partner at one firm and make it at another later. I worked for a partner who was passed over at least twice and eventually made it as a lateral partner after working as counsel at several firms. It took him 10 or 15 years longer than the average person, but he made it eventually. You have hit a stumbling block in your career. A big one. It stinks, I get it. But I’m not sure why you have such a defeatist attitude. Your career as a litigator is not over. You have a crappy job right now and you should try to get out and into something you like more.
Anon
Original poster – the defeatist attitude is bc when you talk to recruiters, no firm is ever hiring 8th or 10th or 12th yr associates — at least not in litigation in the last 3-5 yrs. The market is tight bc the work just isn’t there. I wouldn’t mind going to a mid law firm — where I can practice with middle market clients even if I’m not making millions. Yet I have yet to stumble upon one such firm thru recruiters and maybe it’s just me — talking to people who are already partners anywhere is like talking to a brick wall; they’re very quick to say — sorry I haven’t heard of anyone looking, good luck.
Hollis
Not that is matters at all, but I’m also HYP undergrad, HYP law. In your shoes, I would ignore all recruiters outright because they are all looking for the shiny, unblemished, perfect 5th year associate to place at a firm they know is looking for a perfect candidate. If you don’t fit that mold, you are not helpful to them. Remember, the recruiters work for the firms, and not the candidates. They are not your ally.
So, instead of talking to them, why not reach out to your network and meet people who might actually want to bring you on board as an of counsel or senior associate, with partnership consideration in 2-3 years? You can join at that level and prove yourself and make partner at a great firm.
Affirming what another person said above, I worked for 4 firms – yes, I did what I’m talking about 3 times more than you have. I finally made partner at the 4th firm and yes, it took twice as long as some other folks at my firm, but life is a marathon and not a race. My colleagues here picked the right place as summer associates – I picked places that looked awesome on paper but where for whatever reason, the stars were not aligned right when I was supposed to be put up for partner. Figure out where you want to be 5 years from now and start meeting people one on one who are at places that can take you there.
Hollis
Sorry, I meant HYS law… I miss the edit button.
Also want to point out that I know some fantastic litigators who did a stint in government and went back to a firm so I know it can be done.
Anonymous
I think the mistake here is relying on recruiters. They tend not to work with people your level (and as Hollis said, they have their own agenda and are not working for you). Utilize your network and direct job postings. And don’t rule out govt jobs. My Big Law firm hires many former govt attorneys at the counsel level.
Anonymous
Have you looked into smaller firms? I would think there are tons of boutique firms with sophisticated practices that would kill to have someone with your resume and experience.
Anon
Original poster — how do I find these places? My target cities are CLT and DC. Everyone says this is an option yet there’s never any ideas on how to make it happen.
Susie
Are you involved in your local bar association? Around here many of the smaller firms tend to be pretty involved.
Hollis
How about reaching out to alums from your college or law school who are at firms that you are interested in, sending them an e-mail introducing yourself and mentioning that you are new to the area and are interested in learning more about their practice area or firm or the local market or whatever, and asking if you could meet up with them for lunch or coffee sometime? Some people will ignore you, but you’d be surprised. Random people would meet with me just because I reached out, and a few times, there would be an opening at their firm or company (in-house positions) that wasn’t posted publicly and my resume would be forwarded directly to the hiring partner. They will *love* that there’s no recruiting fee involved.
anon @ 3:39
Boutique firms tend to be really strong on business development. Think of all the things your firm used to try to get you to do – host a CLE, write articles, publish a client update to be posted on your website. Track down lists of CLEs, sign up for local publications, google recent opinions that folks are talking about. If you’re not already, sign up to receive docket reports and opinions in your area of interest – pay attention to the repeat players who are litigating the cases.
Don’t rule out recruiters, too. A lot of smaller firms use them.
Anonymous
You have to network. The job is not going to fall in your lap. I went to a TTT and I’ve never had to apply cold to a job and have been able to land three different (good) legal jobs as a result of networking. I get that things suck, but you need to try to think more positively and less defeatist about the whole thing. Get involved in the bar association, get on a committee or two, reach out to alumni, teach a CLE or two, write an article, etc.
Where to now?
I posted a couple weeks ago that I had a conversation with a guy friend about the status of our relationship, and that the verdict was we are just friends. I am actually totally cool with this – I had just started picking up weird signals from him (that he owned as a thing that was happening during our conversation – I don’t understand, either) so I wanted to clarify where we were before it started turning in to anything. In hindsight, I may not have done a great job conveying that this was how I felt (versus, omg I have a crush/feels). We agreed we’d still be friends and he asked if I needed him to take a step back, and I said no, but that I would be very clear if something he was doing was making me uncomfortable or crossing the platonic line.
But, now it’s been a couple weeks, and things are just… weird. Travel schedules have kind of messed our normal routine of hanging out, but where he would have normally called to catch up, nothing. I saw him once or twice in a group setting, and once when he invited somebody else along to an outing we had planned. I’ve reached out a couple times via text and he always responds but it feels kind of forced.
I am hesitant here between “giving him time to process” and “well, now it’s been so long that it’s awkward and I kind of ghosting out of the friendship.” Do I just put this back in his court and if the friendship dies…. was fun while it lasted?
(we’re both late-20’s, single professionals, and can both be anti-confrontational/tend toward being reserved and quiet)
anon
I’m sure I’ll get flamed for saying this but… I find your posts hard to read/understand on a basic level, and I wonder if that is coming across also in your real life relationships– lack of clear communication. I dunno, maybe stop being verbose and stop beating around the bush and stop the stream of consciousness and just tell him what you’re thinking? I don’t even know what it is you want out of this relationship after reading all your posts, but I suspect you like him as more than a friend but since he doesn’t feel the same way, are happy to continue the friendship. Just tell him that. Maybe he feels awkward because he knows you have feelings for him. If so, then I’d just give him space and see what happens, but it might be better for you to stop having him in your life so much if you have feelings, he doesn’t, and it isn’t going anywhere.
Anonymous
I only posted I think twice about this, but I saw some other posts from people going through the same issue.
I may be getting too caught up in trying to be vague about the details. Sorry you find it hard to read.
I don’t really have romantic feelings. I just wanted to know where we were. I hoped things would just go back to how they were, but that may have been naïve.
Thanks for your reply.
Anonymous
I don’t find your posts hard to read, but I do think the guy seems to feel awkward from your conversation and maybe even wants to back away from the friendship a bit, and you should give him some space and let him initiate contact for a while. If that means your friendship dies out, so be it.
Anonymous
Just keep it light and casual for now. Like don’t text him asking if he’s going to X group event – just text him that you’re going and look forward to catching up if he’s there too. Let him initiate any one on one hang outs. Don’t over think it. Avoid romantic set up like taking him as your date to a wedding.
Anonymous
I agree. You’re obviously into him, based on your words and deeds. And if you aren’t it’s actually pretty mean to be like “do you like like me? I mean I don’t like you! Don’t get the wrong idea. Just friends. But do you like me?”
Grow up!!
Anonymous
“Grow up”? Helpful commentary.
lawsuited
You’ve been posting about this conversation quite a bit on this board, so if the conversation had the significant impact on him that it’s had on you, then it’ll take him a while to get over the awkwardness as well. I recommend that you keep reaching out in whatever ways feel natural to you, so that even if he’s responding in a forced way the friendship will be able to get back normal once he gets over it without having additional how-to-reach-out-now-that-we’ve-not-spoken-in-2-months awkwardness.
Anonymous
Well, when things are quiet on the job search front and I’m overall happy and successful at work, this is the kind of thing that comes to mind I guess, and it’s nice to have outside input. I’ll keep it at therapy in the future.
lawsuited
Yo, that’s not what I meant. We weren’t privy to conversation you had, so I was inferring from your pre-occupation with it that it was a significant one for both you and him, which would explain why he’s acting strangely. I then suggested that you continue to reach out to him as normal so that the friendship is still there when he’s gotten over the conversation. Perhaps it wasn’t the answer you were looking for so you’d prefer to talk about it in therapy only, which is absolutely your prerogative, but your post certainly didn’t bother me.
Anonymous
Your thoughtfulness on the topic were definitely appreciated! I just didn’t mean to wear out my welcome.
Anonymous
You calm down. You had a very awkward conversation, seemingly for no reason if you’re really not into him. Don’t say anything else, don’t do anything different. You want to hang out? Suggest it.
It has been a couple weeks. You’ve seen him 2 or 3 times. Saying that it seems like he is ghosting on the friendship makes you sound cray.
Deskless in NYC
Do you have a desk at home? How big is your home, where is your desk and how often do you use it?
I live in a 2 BR apartment with my husband and child. My husband has a desk in our living room with his desk top computer that he uses primarily recreationally (gaming – which he does daily). When he occasionally works from home, he does so on our kitchen island on his work laptop. He does his share of “home business” (like paying bills) at his desk on his desk top. I don’t often work from home but do a fair share of “home business” (like managing finances) and dislike doing so at the kitchen island. I wish I had a desk just for me to put all my “stuff” and where I could work from home on the rare occasions I do so. He doesn’t understand why I don’t just use the kitchen island but when I do, complains that I leave my papers and such out. He leaves his papers out too, just on his own desk where I don’t complain about them!
Not sure if I need a desk, a new husband, or a reality check :)
Emma
My first thought is that you and DH should start sharing the desk that’s in the living room.
Wildkitten
This would be my least favorite option. Can you get a small desk and fit it in somewhere that works for you? Or a tray/ fancy box that you can carry out to do your work and put away when you’re done.
Deskless in NYC
It’s a small desk that almost completely occupied by his desktop, so there’s no room for my laptop or files. Otherwise I would totally steal it! I mean share it!
Anonymous
You need a desk! If space or visible paper mess is a consideration, get a small “secretary desk” that folds shut.
Miz Swizz
We have an office with 2 desks that I rarely use because I find my husband to be extremely loud and distracting when he’s gaming. I like the idea of a secretary desk as well, especially if you don’t want to share the same room as a gamer.
lawsuited
For context, I live in a 650 sq ft 1-bedroom apartment with my husband and a pet. We have a desk that we share, meaning that either of us can use it with our respective personal or work laptops, but no one gets to set up their crap permanently. Perhaps the solution is to get rid of the desktop computer so the current desk can be more flexible? FWIW, my husband also goes a lot of gaming, but has a “gaming” laptop as opposed to a desktop because our place is so small and I really hate clutter. We do also have a separate cubby/drawer station where we put mail, charge our phones, etc. so maybe something like that would give you somewhere to put your “stuff” (not sure what stuff, of course).
Deskless in NYC
I’ve been working on the “gaming laptop” idea since we moved in together in 2009. Still no progress. Maybe I can borrow your husband to convince my husband of the desirability of this plan? :)
Gamer boyfriend
If watching TV/noise doesn’t bother you, could you have him hook the desktop CPU up to the TV to use as a monitor for gaming? Although I guess that doesn’t solve his home “work” he does. Could you do a stylish fold out desk (I’m thinking along the lines of a fold out ironing board) for your laptop? That is frustrating though, I go through the same thing so I sympathize!
lawsuited
Lol, borrowing my husband wouldn’t help your cause at all – he was very anti-laptop, but I insisted because our space is small so being able to tuck away things when they’re not in use is really important to me. I told him he could pick out any gaming laptop on the market, regardless of cost, but the desk top was not moving with us to 1-bedroom place (we moved to the city from the suburbs so had more space before in our townhome).
Unfortunately, now that you have the established set-up, it may be more difficult to change. The only thing I can recommend is perhaps buying a gaming laptop for his birthday or other gift-giving occasion as a catalyst? I would recommend a secretary desk or fold-out desk to save space, but I know from experience that neither is very sturdy so you may not get much use out of it.
NYC tech
You need a desk. I have a small one in my bedroom from Ikea that I use to do makeup in the morning (with a small lighted mirror, feels very luxurious), and I can easily clear off when I occasionally want to do some work at home. The psychic benefit of having a little space that no one is allowed to touch is huge. That’s why it worked better in the bedroom of our small apartment – otherwise the kids would mess with it or my husband would lay mail on it.
Cat
Live in a 3BR rowhouse. We don’t have kids yet, so use the 2nd bedroom as a guest room and 3rd (smallest) bedroom as our joint office. It fits two desks and a bookshelf. HOWEVER, neither of us actually occupies the office for very long unless officially working from home — we use it mostly for keeping files organized and having a “home” for things like tech accessories and diplomas. Instead, we usually are on our laptops on the sofa or at our kitchen table downstairs, primarily out of convenience to the kitchen, and therefore typically have a little pile of filing sitting on the stairs waiting for the next time one of us heads up.
In your scenario… it sounds like you should buy yourself a small desk for your living room, OR adapt your husband’s desk to work for two people, and invest in some practical organizing tools to keep “work in progress” tidy.
Anonymous
Getting a desk (or making a decision for the two of you to share the current desk) would be a lot less hassle than a getting new husband.
Terry
I used to have a desk. Then my husband went back to school for an MA and I got the boot. (Fair enough; I’m not doing homework 7 days a week.) I’m still the household accountant and occasionally work from home. What works for me is having a few drawers in the desk reserved for my use. It makes it a lot easier to stay organized (household) and to have supplies when working from home (stapler, pens, etc). I clean up after I’ve been working a few hours and put everything back in my (enormous) laptop bag.
Anon
My husband and I each have our own desks, and the kids have their own as well. The kids’ desks are in their bedroom. My desk is in an alcove of the living room. Husband’s desk is in a spare bedroom where he keeps his drum set.
We used to share my desk but we drove each other crazy. I work from home at least a couple of days per week and I could not deal with his stuff all over the desk. And since the desk is in a really visible part of our home, I didn’t like the look the mess created. I like a desk with just a laptop on it. He likes a big monitor, a big stack of components, speakers and at least 1,037 big fat cables coiled all over the floor under the desk.
I’m so happy he has his own desk behind a closed door now. He doesn’t seem to mind either so it works well.
Catlady
We have three spare bedrooms (babies are forthcoming, just not quite yet), so my husband and I both have our own office space. When we have a kid, he and I will likely condense our offices. My desk is not huge, it’s the Alex from Ikea (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40260717/). This desk could even work as a sofa table or console with enough room in the drawers to stow your laptop and some basic office supplies.
anon
What is it with all the grown men (and sometimes women) who spend hours a day “gaming”? If my partner spent hours of his free time glued to a computer screen, I would not be happy.
Anonymous
People spend hours a day on social media or buzzfeed or whatever, what’s the difference between that and gaming?
anon
People spend hours on social media while they’re at home with their partner and/or kids? I get checking instagram/facebook on your phone periodically, but just being on your computer for hours at a time at home after work?
Wildkitten
Or watching TV.
Killer Kitten Heels
This is not as crazy as you’re making it sound, anon. I could easily spend an hour or two reading articles online – I like to read, and the way one article links to the next makes it pretty easy to jump from one article to the next for a good length of time, if you’re so inclined. Sometimes those articles are on Buzzfeed, or are links I’m following from FB or whatever, so I guess technically I’m “on social media,” but really I’m just reading – it’s not all that different from spending your time reading magazines.
And as for the video gaming, I love that my H plays games – it gives me time to read or otherwise do my own thing. If he was gaming instead of working or taking care of house stuff, I guess it’d bother me, but that’s not the case. I think if my H expected us to spend every second of our free time doing something together or otherwise staring at each other, it would drive me bonkers, so I’m glad he has stuff he likes to do on his own, and I mostly don’t care what that stuff is.
JJ
I don’t know about others, but my husband enjoys computer games. He plays maybe an hour each on Saturday and Sunday while the kids are napping, and maybe a couple times a week after I go to sleep and he’s done working. Maybe from 10-11 pm. I get up a lot earlier than him to work out (that’s “my time”), and this is his way to relax and unwind. I’m not going to begrudge him that time – that’s his “relaxation time” and he can do as he chooses.
Cat
the OP didn’t say husband spent “hours” gaming, only that he does so daily — if that’s how he unwinds and it’s not interfering with his share of child care / house care / spouse care, it’d be fine with me. My husband enjoys playing old war/strategy type games on his computer for an hour or so at night, albeit on his laptop next to me on the sofa while I do something else (watch a show that he secretly enjoys but would never admit to actually paying attention to, like the Bachelor, play my own computer games/surf the web). I don’t feel slighted or ignored that part of his relaxation time doesn’t actively involve me.
OP
This is basically it.
He and I are both introverts and like to unwind in the evenings “by ourselves” – I browse the internet or read books or do crafts, he plays games. Usually we’re in the same room. I’m not sure how watching TV together is any better. We do other things “together” – like eat dinner together every night, go to the park with the kid on the weekend, etc. We just like to have our own time too, and if he wants to spend his own time clicking things on maps? Doesn’t bother me.
Shopaholic
My boyfriend plays video games. He doesn’t spend hours every day – sometimes he’ll play if he’s home and I’m out with friends, or after I go to bed sometimes if I’m going to bed early, and a few hours on the weekend, which I really don’t mind because I’ll sit next to him and read or something.
I’m not really sure why this is a problem unless you’re with a man child who plays video games instead of spending time with you or doing chores etc.
Anonymous
I *wish* my husband would spend his spare time “gaming.” He has quit all his hobbies and now spends all his spare time watching stupid TV and complaining that he is bored and trying to make me feel guilty for trying to get stuff done around the house because I am neglecting him. If he got into gaming at least he would have something to keep him occupied.
Anonymous
I don’t really understand the appeal of gaming either. But I’m guessing there are a lot of people who don’t understand why I want to get up at 5am on a Saturday and run in a four-hour circle. As long as the priorities of the two people in the relationship don’t clash (e.g., hypothetical-me wants to go to bed at 9pm to get up for his/her run and the gamer stays up until 3am with the laptop screen flickering in their studio apartment), who cares?
Anonymous
My husband likes video games and has even gotten me into some of them. I don’t see it as any different from watching tv or movies or Youtube, or spending hours on social media or the internet. As long as it doesn’t interfere with real responsibilities, it’s a perfectly valid way to unwind.
Sydney Bristow
If I were you, I’d get a desk.
We are going the opposite way. Currently we both have a desk, his in the bedroom and mine in the living room. We used to each have a desktop computer but recently I moved mine into the bedroom and we share it since I rarely use it. I’m in the process of getting rid of my desk and getting a laptop. We’re planning to fill the space with a new armchair and ottoman. I so rarely need an actual flat workspace that my desk is just a waste of space.
Bonnie
We have a desk but never use it. Generally we just use our laptop on th couch or at the dining table. If you don’t have room for a desk, can you get a small cabinet that would be devoted solely for your things?
Anonymous
People have desks still?!? LOL. Why can’t you manage your finances on your lap!
Anonymous
This.
OP
I can and do – it’s just not my preference.
OP
Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions!
Wildkitten
If you just need a space for your stuff (as opposed to space to spread out) you can some tiny ones at Ikea that still have a drawer you can close things into. I also love the ikea bar car as a portable station for things if you don’t need a desk – like for craft stuff or whatever. I really need my own space for my own stuff but there are lots of solutions that will fit in all sorts of spaces.
Parfait
We live in a teeny tiny one-bedroom apartment, and manage to have a desk for each of us. His is on one end of the dining area and mine is in a corner of the living room. You need a space of your own! When I was getting ready to move in with him, I was debating not bringing my desk and just using the kitchen table or something. He wouldn’t hear of it, and I am glad he insisted. Having a little bit of space that is just MINE is so key.
Anon
No advise but this is funny! My husband and I sometimes find ourselves being equally ridiculous and have to just laugh at ourselves.
Flats
Any recommendations for ballet flats in the $100 range? I just need something cute and somewhat comfortable just for wearing around the office. Ivanka Trump makes cute ones but I’m loathe to support her family…
Anonymous
Vince Camuto. Slightly under your price range but they are cute and comfy and hold up surprisingly well.
Anon
I have some from the Fitflops brand that have a bit of a wedge. They are very supportive and my feet feel better after wearing them all day as they would with flags.
Ecco also makes a shoe that looks like a ballet flat that has a hidden wedge heel (very low) that are also more comfortable.
I think you can get deals on both of these from sites like 6pm and Nordstrom rack/ rue lala.
Bonnie
Love Ecco flats.
tazdevil
times 1000!! Now that she is publicly supporting her dad’s (racist, sexist, and homophobic) campaing, she can’t hide behind the ‘sins of the father’ defense. I have been toying with the idea of putting together petition to Nordstroms to remove her cr#p from their stores and website.
Killer Kitten Heels
I have a pair of Sam Edelmans that I got 2ish years ago at Nordstrom that have held up well to a moderate amount of use and are very comfortable. I also like the Cole Haan Manhattan ballet flats, but I think they’re out of your preferred price range.
I also have a pair of basic black Comfort Plus ballet flats from Payless that I keep in a desk drawer that have proven to be good “office slippers.”
mss
Sam Edelman Felicia. Nordstrom/Nordstrom Rack often has colors on sale for ~$70.
Zelda
I have a pair of Anne Klein AKPaddy flats that I love. They’re cute, comfortable, and have worn really well (had them for a year or two). Highly recommended.
Online scheduling
I’m doing research on the way patient interact with their docs. I know the ability to do online scheduling/communication comes up on here all the time, so thought there might be some folks interested in giving feedback to a major healthcare tech company looking to build out these kinds of capabilities. if you have a few minutes to spare, the survey is in my handle. TIA for your input and please feel free to remove if this isn’t appropriate for this forum.
Anonymous
Worth applying to an in-house job in a niche area of litigation when you have no experience with that sub-field but have broad litigation experience and otherwise meet the qualifications (years of experience, etc)? It’s not patent law or anything that requires a specific background, it’s something I could easily do I just haven’t done it yet.
Killer Kitten Heels
Yes, just make sure you explain how your experience would help you in the new area in your cover letter.
Anon in NYC
The worst they can say is no. Go for it. And definitely tailor your cover letter to show what you would bring to the job.
Anon
Does anyone have any advice about whitewashing furniture? It would entail sanding down the pieces (which are natural wood color) to remove varnish/polyurethane, then painting them with a watered-down white or cream paint so that the wood grain shows through.
My experience with painting furniture using latex paints is that the surface never feels as nice and un-sticky as store bought furniture. I wonder if the watered down aspect might help.
Any advice appreciated. This madness arises from repainting our master bedroom and now I want to change All The Things.
Clementine
I used something called ‘milk paint’ for something like this and got great results.
I think it was something like this: http://www.milkpaint.com
We bought it at our local unfinished wood furniture store. Side note: these are great for finding all wood, made in the USA bookshelves for not that much more than the crappy fiberboard ones!
Anon
Thanks! There are two shops that sell this in my city. I will definitely check it out
What does the finish feel like? Is it smooth?
Clementine
Ours came out smooth but not shiny, if that makes sense. It’s not rough, but if you want more of a sheen, you have to poly over it.
I’ll bet a dollar the store you go to look at it in has samples of what it looks like once applied. It looks like antique painted furniture, if that makes sense.
Semi-nomymous
Is it real wood like pine, oak or birch? Solid or just a thin layer of veneer? Pretty much straight lines or does it have intricate knobbly spindles?
If solid real wood, and mostly straight lines it shouldn’t be too difficult to make it turn out ok – but you’ll get way better results using white stain or pickling than watered down latex paint, and you’ll probably want to put a clear finish on it like polyurethane.
If veneer, rubber wood or knobbly or carved in a way that would be difficult to sand every single bit of the old finish off, it won’t be worth your time. Plan to spend lots of time sanding to get the old finish off with coarse and then finer grades of sandpaper, and start with the piece you care least about or the smallest one, or maybe something like the back of the nightstand.
Otherwise if the furniture still looks good and current but you just want a change, you would probably be further ahead selling it on Craigslist or similar and then spending that money toward what you actually want rather than refinishing gone badly. My father refinishes furniture as a hobby and he often advises people that it either isn’t worth doing or that the piece they have is so lovely as natural wood, please don’t ruin it with paint because you almost never can get it back.
Here is information on white stains/pickling:http://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/skills-and-know-how/painting/whitewashing-and-pickling-techniques
Tecan
Try looking at ceruse/pickled wood finishing techniques, if you don’t really want a “whitewashed” look. This to me is a lot more chic than the heavy matte painted wood furniture look of Pinterest circa 2012.
NOLA
I messed up my knee a few weeks ago and haven’t been able to wear heels at all. Even completely flat shoes without good support hurt my knee. I’ve been living in my Franco Sarto boots. I needed something low and comfortable that would look nice even with a skirt or dress or would dress up an outfit otherwise. I ordered the Topshop Jolene pump from Nordstrom and they are perfect. I wanted the silver but bought the black because they’re more versatile. They don’t hurt my knee at all and look great. Just funky enough for me and a chunky heel. http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/topshop-jolene-pump-women/4285044
Just in case someone else needs something like it.
Anon S
Hi ladies, wanted to get thoughts on having relatives stay with you. Without getting into the details, I have a strained relationship with my parents. It’s very civil, but it’s strained. My mom asked if she could come visit during her spring break (she’s a teacher) so she and my dad are coming next weekend for one night (they live a 4 hour drive away). They asked if they needed to get a hotel and I told them they were welcome to stay with us. My husband and I are both in big law, we have an almost 1 year old. We do have a guest bedroom (that doubles as our office) so my parents can certainly stay there.
The issue is food and hosting. My husband and I are on a strict budget right now b/c we are trying to pay off student loans, so we don’t have extra funds to pay for all of my parents meals (if we went out to lunch, dinner and brunch). How do you guys handle a situation like that? I certainly don’t want my parents to have to pay for us. Sometimes my husband and I literally eat cereal for dinner. Or random sandwiches. It’s not a big deal at all, but it stresses me out when I think about going out to meals for a full weekend and having to pay for them.
How can I work around this??? Thank you for any suggestions you might have.
lawsuited
I think if they’re staying for one night, you just need to add 2 extra portions to whatever you would cook for dinner and whatever you would usually have for breakfast the next morning. For dinner, maybe avoid the cereal and random (?) sandwiches, but a pasta dish would be inexpensive and a perfectly acceptable dinner meal. For breakfast, an open-cupboard policy of whatever you would normally eat for breakfast is perfectly fine. I’m thinking the extra groceries would be $10-$20 or so, so hopefully you can stretch your budget that far?
Anonymous
Why do you have to go out? Why not buy a few extra groceries and cook at home?
Anon S
I just feel like they always expect it. Maybe that’s more my issue than theirs.
Anonymous
Sounds like it.
Anonymous
You certainly don’t have to go out for meals. If they’d like to go out, they can go out alone or offer to treat you. I do think you should feed them whatever you’re planning on eating and not ask them to chip in for groceries , but like lawsuited said i can’t imagine the groceries for one dinner and one breakfast would be more than about $20.
Anonymous
Yes, if you do go out for dinner, I’m thinking they should be treating you as a thank you for your hospitality.
Mrs. Jones
I would let the parents pay for a meal out, assuming they offer.
Senior Attorney
Well… You invited them to stay after they offered to get a hotel, so I think you have signed up for the role of host/hostess. I would be prepared to feed them at home, and if they suggest going out you can say “Sorry, that’s not really in our budget,” and I am pretty sure they will say “Come on, it’s our treat!” Your student loans can take a little hit this month for the extra groceries and your pride can take the hit for them buying you one or two meals.
And next time remember how awkward this was and let them stay in a hotel.
Anon S
It is so awkward. That’s another story altogether though (why it’s awkward and why our relationship is strained). I feel awful if they pay for anything b/c they are basically living paycheck to paycheck and have filed for bankruptcy in the past. And I know it’s b/c they had massive credit card debt and basically spend a lot more than they can afford so I just don’t want to be in a situation where they are paying for something for me. And then they tip like 10% or less so it’s embarrassing on top of awkward and sad.
Anonymous
Then BUY THEIR MEALS. Because you are richer than 95% of the country and if you can’t figure this out there is something wrong with you.
Anonymous
Yea, I hate to jump on this, but come on. You’re both in biglaw, so even if you’re associates your pre-tax income is likely over $350k. You can afford to take your parents out for three meals (for a total of… an extra $150-200?). You may not *want* to, but that’s a different situation.
Senior Attorney
Yeah, sounds like this is really the answer. Just do it. Cost of doing business and be done with it.
Anonymous
OMG you CAN NOT be serious. For goodness sake. You are both in biglaw. You can afford to feed them for a night. Dear God.
You don’t have to eat out, but be an adult and figure out how to do better for the people who raised you than cereal for dinner. If you can’t swing food, your budget is bad.
Do not feed them
The trolls, I mean.
Anonymous
Anon S is not a troll. She has posted lots of other comments here.
anon.
you’re in big law. I think you can afford to buy some groceries and make a home-cooked meal. maybe take them out for a casual lunch? if my kid and his/her partner were making $200k+ combined and didn’t provide me any food when I visited, I would be pissed and confused.
Anonymous
Try $300K combined! At least.
Anon S
Just b/c we have a high salary doesn’t mean we’re rolling in the dough.
Anonymous
Good grief, nobody is telling you to buy a Maserati or a trip to Tahiti. People who make 1/10th what you do manage to eat out from time to time.
Anonymous
No one is suggesting that. But you can afford to buy 3 meals for two people. Especially if this doesn’t happen often. And especially because you offered to host them in your home. I understand it’s a crappy relationship, and that might be a different story, but it’s definitely not a money issue.
Jesus
Were you raised in a fucking barn? (Can I say fucking here?) Make pasta one night, burgers the next, tacos the third. Buy some juice, coffee, and bread for toast for breakfast. I could do this as a broke student, I think you can do it as a gainfully employed adult. Wtf did you make your husband for Valentines Day? A pop tart?
biglaw anon
Is this a joke? I understand and very much appreciate trying to save money and pay off loans on an accelerated basis, but come on.
you said you are both in biglaw, meaning that you make, at a minimum, $300k a year combined before taxes. You’re telling me that you cant come up with enough money to go to a lunch, dinner, and brunch with your parents?
Anon S
Lunch, dinner and brunch for 4 people would be hundreds of dollars! I mean unless we’re talking about going to Subway. When my husband and I go to a local restaurant/pub, it’s easily 50 dollars for the two of us. The restaurants within walking distance to us are on the higher priced side.
Anonymous
Are you actually insane? It is one night.
Lunch- Have lunch prepared at the house when they arrive, or buy deli sandwiches. 4 deli sandwiches, 4 drinks, $50
Dinner- go to this local pub. $100
Breakfast/brunch- $100 if you must go some place fancy, or cook brunch, or go some place more casual.
How do you rationally look at providing 2 people with 3 meals and conclude you must spend hundreds of dollars?
Anon S
You realize what you just posted above equals 250 dollars so that is hundreds of dollars.
Anonymous
Yeah nut job I realize. You realize that “their” portion of that is only $125 right? And that is the maximum I suggested. I also said fine to cook at home. Idk why this is a struggle. You have plenty of money and options here. You are carrying on like they are moving in for a week. It is one night!!
Anonymous
Nobody is saying you have to go out. You have to feed them a normal meal (not cereal) at home. That is not hundreds of dollars.
Gail the Goldfish
Look, I get wanting to get loans paid off, but your parents raised you and fed you meals on what I’m guessing was less than your Biglaw salary (if your mom’s a teacher, though you didn’t mention what your dad did). Bite the bullet on this one and take them out for 3 meals and make less of an extra payment on loans this month. Or just cook something easy at home like pasta, which is probably easier than going out with a 1 year old anyway and pretty cheap. 3 meals will not totally derail your loan repayment plan if you’re making BigLaw money. Besides, if they’re like most parents, they’ll offer to pay at least once anyway.
Anonymous
Sadly, I actually know someone in Biglaw who eats PBJ for 3 meals a day because they want to save money. The person is single so it’s not quite as ridiculous, but still pretty crazy.
Tigermom
If your parents really want to take you guys out… so be it. Your one year old child is perfect cover for staying in and eating at home.
Clementine
This is how I’d handle this:
Breakfast: Buy 5 bagels (okay, maybe 6) plus cream cheese. Serve coffee or tea. Less than $10 for that meal.
Lunch: Soup (For me it would be TJ’s roasted pepper and tomato soup) with sandwiches. Everybody loves grilled cheese! Or you could make PBJ/Turkey/Tuna and let the kiddo ‘help’ Grandparents with it which they would love.
Dinner: Baked ziti prepped ahead of time or Costco Lasagna or big pot of chili with extra beans added plus cheap-o cornbread. I’d just dump everything in a crock pot and cook it on low. Freeze any extra- vegetarian chili is very easy to stretch.
So one of my favorite things to say about weight loss is to remind people beating themselves up after having a ‘bad’ meal that the idea that one day of less than ideal eating will make you fat is the same thing as thinking that one salad will make you thin. Same thing here- one day of slightly higher spending will not derail your finances completely, just like one day of frugality won’t.
(And I fully agree- nothing wrong with making them stay in a hotel next time.)
Anonymous
They’re living pay check to pay check! She has a guest room!
Clementine
I didn’t have the paycheck to paycheck info when I posted that, and it does make me slightly more inclined to change my tune.
After reading more of the details, I think that you should really start to get comfortable with the idea of staying in for food. Maybe it’s what they ‘expect’, but whatever- they can deal!
Wildkitten
What I like about these suggestions is that they involve minimal prep and minimal clean up during a time that is going to be already stressful.
Anonymous
Just pay for a real meal, either groceries, delivery, or go out. You can afford it easily for one night, despite your budget plans. Saying you need to put every penny toward your loan so you want to have your guests eating cereal for dinner is you weirdly being cheap. You are going to offend your parents and I bet you make double or triple your mom’s salary. Honestly your parents want to see the baby and you guys, most likely rather than eat out at every meal. You can have a lovely dinner cheaply at home If that is what you prefer.
Anon S
Ladies, ladies! I hear you loud and clear. The parental units will not be made to eat cereal, don’t worry. I have been extremely $ focused, so that coupled with my not so great relationship with my parents has given me anxiety about them coming. But that’s a different story altogether. :)
Killer Kitten Heels
Not to beat a dead horse, but I really think your anxiety over money generally is somehow combining with your cr@p relationship with your parents into a weird hyperfocus on how “expensive” it will be to feed them, when the issue – if I may venture a guess – is more likely some kind of sublimated resentment over being “obligated” to redirect student loan money towards people who are “financially irresponsible” and who you don’t actually like very much. Imagine how you would solve the what to feed/how to feed them problem if this was your best friend and her husband coming to visit, and then do that thing.
Clementine
I think KKH is right here…
And I fully sympathize. I have a fiscally irresponsible parent who has done the magical combo of abandonment (actual plus financial! wheeeee!), alcoholism, being an overall a-hole, and taking credit for my successes.
It sometimes adds to the frustration that this parent’s actions meant that neither parent could help me out financially in college… so the fact that the money would otherwise go to student loans would tick me off extra.
I know it’s a poor example, but maybe your relationship is in a ‘b!tch eating crackers’ kind of place.
CHJ
I totally understand where you’re coming from. My husband has a strained relationship with his parents, and it is so stressful when they come to visit. Especially for any length of time, like a week. I start to lose my mind after 12 hours. Having to treat them to meals out the entire time would really push me over the edge.
But like several people have said, it’s not really about the money. It’s about your anxiety about them coming to visit, and then channeling that into something concrete to be upset about (money). And the underlying issues/guilt/anxiety aren’t something that can be fixed with bagels. (That said, the frozen croissants from Trader Joe’s are really good and look like you made an effort).
Lilly
Pasta Marinara with garlic bread and salad. Seriously. Bought sauce, bought “regular” dry pasta, bought garlic bread – the kind from the freezer section ready to pop in the oven, and a bought salad. Wanna be fancy? – buy a basil plant in the produce section, pluck the leaves, rinse them and put them in the sauce. Easy, ready in half an hour, available at any average supermarket, and likely about $20 to feed four adults. Make it $25 if you buy the basil. Serve without apology or explanations. Be the gracious hostess.
Randi
Can I get podcast recs? I’m just entering this world so any and all recs welcomed.
Anonymous
What are you into? I’m a big comedy podcast fan, but YMMV depending on your sense of humor.
Killer Kitten Heels
I loved The Mystery Show with Starly Kine, and if you’re a reader, the Book Riot podcasts are really good as well. Also, Dear Sugar has a podcast (if you were a fan of her column on The Rumpus) that is very, very Dear-Sugar-y. Invisibilia is also quite good, and, on the “kind of weird choices” front, I’m a big fan of The Modern Farm Girls and Welcome to Night Vale.
Emmer
The Standards that everyone will mention: Serial, This American Life, Radiolab, Freakonomics, Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me
Popular but not wildly so: Pop Culture Happy Hour, Dinner Party Download, Death Sex & Money, Savage Love (warning, very very sexually explicit), Reply All, The Longest Shortest Time
Random personal favs: Note to Self, Strangers, FiveThirtyEight Elections, Slumber Party with Alie and Georgia, The Sporkful
If you name specific interests I’m happy to give more recs. I skew towards story-telling and pop culture, if you couldn’t tell, but I know of many others that you might be interested in.
Anonymous
I listen to Serial, Snap Judgment (short stories), Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me, Throwing Shade (very funny), Desert Island Discs (British but I love the interviews), Happier With Gretchen Rubin, and Selected Shorts (fantastic readings of short stories, some famous, sometimes read by famous actors).
AnonInfinity
I just recently came across Throwing Shade and, man, I love that one.
Carrots
Another two I love if you’re a reader are Books on the Nightstand and Bookrageous. I also recently started to listen to The Dinner Party Download and Awesome Etiquette (which started as guest visits on Dinner Party Download – it’s two of Emily Posts great-great (?) grandchildren who work at the Post Institute. I also download Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me and the noon radio show from my local NPR affiliate for local things that are happening.
X
Missing Maura Murray
The History Chicks
Serial (I liked last season better)
Crime Writers on Serial (they discuss Serial, Making a Murderer, etc)
Freakonomics
The Generation Why
Limetown
The Message
Stuff You Missed in History
The Bowery Boys
Basically, I like true crime and history…
Carrots
The History Chicks looks awesome – I just downloaded a third of the previous episodes.
Stormtrooper
Stuff You Should Know
Serial
Wait wait don’t tell me
Candidate Confessional
Breakdown
Wildkitten
I also like Jess Lively and Jamie Ivey.
New to Chi
Upon Wildkitten’s suggestion, I’m re-posting w/hope of getting some great suggestions from you all!
Relatively new to Chicago and am trying to figure out good spots for a birthday celebration.
Looking for recommendations for a good Saturday evening spot (not a club) OR fun day-drinking/brunch spots.
Late 20s-early 30s crowd, nothing too pricey as it’ll be a gaggle of grad students.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Anonymous
Pops for Champagne!
The Gage (for brunch)
AnonForThis
I have been with my boyfriend for five years. We are a really good pair – we have the same interests and values. He’s a good partner and would be a good parent. He is 32 and I am 30. I am not getting any younger, have been doing a lot of thinking, and thought I would marry him. I know he’d like to marry me. I also really love my life – dream apartment, dream job, dream career, in the one city in which my career makes any sense. It’s an industry town for my industry. Suddenly, he might very well get into a dream grad school (think Yale). I don’t see a career or life for myself in New Haven, and have zero interest in re-locating. But I also think he should go if he gets in – it is such an exceptional opportunity. How long is the longest acceptable long-distance relationship? Would you want to be engaged before looking at 3 years long distance? Married? Is life together so impactful that marrying someone who leaves for 3 years would be a recipe for disaster? Should I give up my career and move with him? I was raised by a single mom and know I don’t *need* a man, but I do *need* a career – and I have one I worked hard for. How do I figure this out?
Anonymous
Make pros/cons lists, talk to him, all the usual things. This is totally a personal decision with no one-size-fits-all. My husband and I are long distance indefinitely. We even have a toddler. It’s been about a year and a half so far. It’s pretty great for me other than the single-parenthood part. I have to actively keep my resentment down in that department. Otherwise, considering I’m an extreme introvert, I love having some space most nights. It’s pretty good for him, too, except for the no regular sex part. But he also works on keeping the resentment down in that department. It’s not easy, but there are major pros and cons.
We’re only 2 hours apart, but I know someone who lived across the country from her husband (and kid) for over a year. She hated it. It just depends on too many things.
AnonForThis
His grad school would be a 14 hour drive or 4 hour flight. He seems to think we could meet up most weekends, but with my modest salary and his grad school salary, I don’t see how that can happen.
I think I have 2/3 questions. I’ve been really prioritizing my female friendships lately – sometimes I’d rather talk to them about something than to talk to him about something. Does that mean I should dump him? Is he going to go to grad school and fall in love with someone who is not me? Is he going to have such a transformative experience in grad school that he will emerge a totally different person and since I am not there our relationship will be ruined?