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Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Tulip-Sleeve Button-Back Top

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. This pretty, flowy top has a lot of good reviews at Loft. I think the eyelet trim adds some fun without crossing the line to showing too much skin. (And it looks like you’d still be able to wear a normal bra with it, thank goodness.) The coastal grey color is a great neutral that could go with anything. I’d wear it with a white blazer and a dark skirt. It’s available for $29.50 (marked down from $49.50) in regular sizes XXS–XXL and plus sizes 14–22. Tulip-Sleeve Button-Back Top This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support! Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.

Sales of note for 12.5

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

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254 Comments

  1. My google skills are failing me…I have found a foundation I love (Inner light mineral dual foundation from Aveda) but it comes without a compact. Last time I got it I just used the plastic packaging it came it, but it’s not convenient at all and of course I eventually dropped the tray and broke a what was left of the foundation. I want to be able to take this with me when I travel/throw it in my purse without carefully packing it up. Anyone have any suggestions/links for empty compacts? or directions on how to size one out?

    2. It’s easy to repair broken foundation/eye shadow. Add a few drops of alcohol and it will form a paste, stir it with a toothpick and let it dry.

  2. Does anyone regret buying a condo versus co-op? Am curious to hear about your experience deciding on one over the other. There seems to be a lot of co-ops in Manhattan with minimum two year residency requirements but very little condos that are comparably affordable. Just wondering if there is something magical about co-ops that I don’t know. Please don’t thread jack this into a discussion about renting v. buying, thanks in advance!

    1. IIRC, in NYC, co-ops were the form used for a lot of older (possibly more charming) buildings before people believed that the condo real estate concept would really work. So it’s a RE law-derived local peculiarity that affects a certain type of the housing stock (and all of the old/fancy/prestigious buildings in fancy parts of Manhattan). But it also means a lot for corporate governance of the building in a way that is really different than condos (you are jointly on the hook for the mortgage, you care a lot about fellow owners’ solvency so you inspect financials, have large downpayments, etc.). It’s very up in your business in a way that condos just aren’t.

      So, newer housing stock is mostly condos, and they are just easier to buy / live in / manage, so I think that tips demand disproportionately to them. Financing is easier. No need to go before the board, etc.

      Co-ops are also in DC to a much lesser extent. Not sure if they really exist elsewhere (London has a weird-to-me market where you “buy” an apartment for a term of years, not a fee simple in perpetuity; how is this not a long-term lease???). But they are really a force in NYC that I think can’t be understood without the backstory (provided to me by a RE attorney once to a very confused me).

      1. Re: your London question, we own our place under the arrangement you’re referencing, and it is called leasehold ownership. We’ve got a freeholder who owns the ground our maisonette is built on and who we pay a nominal peppercorn rent to (in our case, when we extended by 99 years from the 85 years we had outstanding, which you have statutory rights regarding, we paid an extra £10-12k and got a new leasehold for 184 years and for that time we pay a nominal “rent” per year (1 quid) to the freeholder plus our share of buildings’ insurance every year). The freeholder had certain covenants in the lease (we have to notify them of mortgage refinances or get their sign-off on major works/building modifications), but generally our only interaction with them is a one-off check for our buildings’ insurance plus an extra pound each year. Theoretically in another 99 years, whomever owns our place then will need to extend again. There’s also a right that if you have multiple leasehold flats in a building, at least half of them can band together to buy the freehold (and the freeholder has to sell, there’s mechanisms in place if there’s a price disagreement), but generally they wind up just owning a share in the freehold and giving themselves each a 999 year lease. It’s weird. IDK.

        1. IIRC, Hawaii has / used to have something like this. Hawaii used to be a country with royalty and maybe the king owned all of the land. Then it became part of the US. A lot of land was owned by some sort of land trust that gave out 99 year leases. I think there have been moves to condemn some that land as the 99-year leases were an impediment to development.

          Also interesting, the River Houses in Arlington VA are condos built on leased land and the leasehold is coming to an end quite soon. Haven’t kept up with that since I moved away, but will be interesting to see what happens with them (large condo development on the Potomac).

          1. River Place’s lease ends in 2052, so while in the scope of a mortgage it’s “soon”, it’s not ending next year or anything.

          3. Re River Place, that is true, but what I’m thinking is if you need a 30-year lease for a place to be affordable, those are only mathematically possible for a few more years. If a bank would even lend . . . And if you needed to sell something later on, will anyone want to buy it (or would you be forced to rent it out vs selling) or could they finance it?

            I couldn’t have afforded to buy in DC on a 20- or 15-year mortgage. I needed 30 years for the math to make sense. And I didn’t have a 50% down payment that would have eased the numbers a bit.

        2. What if they don’t let you extend? Or if the raise the base rent tremendously?

          In the US, the right of reversion is a big deal and they might want to redevelop the property b/c you don’t know what the area will be like in 99 years.

          1. This is becoming a huge problem with new build houses in England and Wales. Luckily the concept of leasehold doesn’t exist under Scottish law, so my block of flats (built in 1890) is shared freehold. Google “leasehold house time bomb” to find out more – lots of new homes built on estates (subdivisions?) by developers were leaseholds with ground rents that started at £500 or so a year but with contractual terms allowing them to double every 10 years. And then the freeholds of those estates were sold to investors.

          2. Leasehold reform meant that currently, they have no option but to let you extend at a reasonable price for the extension once you have owned the place for two years (and there’s a sort of arbitration tribunal if you can’t work it out directly with your freeholder), and that when you extend by up to an additional 99 years, it’s at only a peppercorn rent allowed. They can’t just raise the rent, it’s contractually fixed and limited. So they now don’t really get much out of it. Previously we personally paid the freeholder a couple hundred pounds a year in ground rent, but now it’s only the nominal rent of one quid. (Our place was like 750k for context.) It’s an odd time and I think a lot of freeholders are probably going to want to sell the freehold in the next couple of decades just to avoid the hassle.

        3. This is fascinating- what does the freeholder get out of the deal? Are they responsible for anything? Do they get part of the sale price?

      2. We considered a co-op in DC but had trouble getting financing from a bank. Also, while the price was lower than condos, the fees were higher, and it seemed generally more restrictive.

      3. San Francisco has a similar form of ownership to a co-op, the TIC. They are usually smaller buildings though (2-3 units rather than a large building) but ownership is shared by everyone in the building rather than owning the unit individually. Mortgages are harder to get, but local banks offer them. On balance, I’d personally prefer a condo to a co-op because you have a little more autonomy and ability to finance. That said, both come with shared maintenance issues so look at the health of the reserves, the age of the building, deferred maintenance issues (try to get board meeting minutes to figure out if something is up), getting hit with assessments is no fun.

        1. PS – I didn’t answer your question, I think the magic is they can be cheaper to get into because of the financing issue, but that can also make them harder to sell.

        2. DH and I bought into a TIC in SF. All was good for 8 years, when one of the other owners was impacted by an economic downturn and could no longer pay his share of the mortgage. The third owner refused to put more in, and we ended up covering his portion for 6 months or so. Fortunately, he sold and we got our money back, but that is the reason why TICs/co-ops are less expensive.

    2. I bought a condo instead of a co-op unit in DC because the co-op had restrictions on the ability to rent out the unit. The co-op limited the number of units in the building that could be rented out and limited the number of consecutive years that any unit could be rented out. I wanted to have the option of continuing to own the unit but rent it out if I decided to move at some point. HOA fees between the co-op and condo buildings I was looking at were comparable and the individual unit prices were also comparable.

      1. FWIW, lots of condo buildings have similar restrictions. So, if this is important to you, don’t assume that this is a difference between the types of ownership and investigate the by-laws for the building you are looking at.

    3. I’m in the process of figuring out whether to buy in Manhattan. Where I live (UWS), you just get a way better price on a coop than a condo and the maintenance fees are generally lower in coops than condos. With a condo, you have the advantage of being able to rent it out and most coops won’t let you. But that also means that as a buyer, I have to compete against investors and their budgets are higher than mine. Also, many coops won’t allow pied a terres or parent guarantors (neither is relevant to me as a buyer, but could reduce the pool of potential buyers when I go to sell). Basically, if I had a choice, then I’d buy condo. But I don’t, so I’ll probably go coop.

  3. I’m going to Lyon for a little over a week with my husband to see the semi-finals and finals of the Women’s World Cup, any recommendations for things to do on the off days?

    2. One of my favorite cities!! Go walk around the shops in Croix-Rousse. Definitely go eat at a Bouchon. I liked Daniel and Denise best as a more contemporary take, but you can’t go wrong with most of them. If you want to splurge, Paul Bocuse has good food but a very formal atmosphere. The Roman ruins are a fun tourist spot.

    3. I’m here in France for the group stage and having a great time! Not going to Lyon though I wish! I’m sure Lyon will be all about it, but it’s been interesting—in Paris you wouldn’t have known it was going on even, but in the smaller towns they’ve been super into it, lots of ads and tourist info handed out and so on.

    4. That’s cool you’re going and also shameful how little attention the World Cup has gotten compared to the men’s. The U.S. women’s team scored more goals in 55 minutes yesterday than the U.S. men’s team scored in like, nine years. They’re by far the better athletes, but they’re still mired in the unequal pay saga and not getting the screentime/publicity they deserve.

      1. FWIW, Women’s World Cup is a Big Deal in my office. Easily as much buzz as the GOT finale a few weeks back. It gives me optimism that the demand curve will impact the supply.

      2. Yeah, maybe it depends on your office or area but my office was all in USA gear on Tuesday and it’s been all over the local news/media/discussions with neighbors and friends. In my life people have been more jazzed about the women than the men (especially because of…. last time)

  4. OMG — packing up to move in the first time in 10 years (during which I married, had 2 kids, and changed sizes and styles and workwear and leisure wear like a million times). I own so much stuff. And so many clothing items (a few A+ items that I will keep and 75% B- items I’d ditch but then I’d have no clothes).

    And we are packing to move out for a reno, so 80% of our stuff will be boxed up for 4-5 months (and we have seasons).

    I just want to go all Dracarys on all of my possessions and start fresh. It is so time-consuming to sort through it all.

    1. Moving is the best time to get rid of things you don’t want or need! Do it and good luck!

      1. This is true, but I also feel like I should be decluttering and getting rid of stuff periodically, so I don’t have to do too much of it when I’m trying to pack for a move.

    2. Binge watch Marie Kondo (or just find her book at a library) and then find an great consignment store. Reward yourself for sorting milestones (rooms, closets, categories of items). Designate yourself a budget for making your new home “home.”

    3. Do it!! It’s so refreshing. After a year, I’m coming to terms that my professional workwear is just not going to get much mileage in my “show up dressed” office. It’s better to pass it along while it is still vaguely in style. If I change roles to be back in a professional environment, it’ll likely be for a pay raise that warrants a full new wardrobe!

      After my last pregnancy, I did a quick round of shopping at the outlet mall for a small capsule of clothing that will work for “right now” as my body re-proportions. 75% of the rest is in queue for donation – maybe even this weekend.

  5. How do you assess comp versus job satisfaction?
    I’m feeling a little blah in my job and am wondering if I could jump to another company with a mission I would feel more aligned with to increase my job happiness. Problem is my comp is above market for the positions I would think about going to, so I would take a significant cut to make that jump (30%+).
    Obviously this is a personal assessment but I’m wondering if anyone here has made the decision to make this kind of jump or not, and why. Thanks in advance.

    1. I took a huge paycut of over 50% to move from BigLaw to government. I consider it more of a way to buy back my time, and wouldn’t say my job satisfaction necessarily increased. I considered how the pay cut would impact your day-to-day life and long term goals. I had know I would be leaving biglaw, so had tried to live on the lower salary. But even without a day-to-day impact, it still sucks to be saving so much less.

      Even assuming little impact, I would be unlikely to accept that kind of pay cut to search for job satisfaction when you are just “feeling a little blah.” In my view, jobs are jobs and are never going to be overly satisfying – that’s why we get paid to work. Knowing myself, I have always felt at least kind of blah after setting in to a job and would worry that I would be 2 years down the road with a job I felt blah about and 30% less income.

    2. I think a different way to think about this is to find ways to amp up your out-of-office happiness to make a blah job matter less. As in, when you’re so excited about XYZ hobbies/volunteering outside of work, it takes your focus off a less than thrilling job. The idea that work is supposed to provide happiness/enjoyment/entertainment is kind of a screwy premise if you step back and think about it… (My advice would be different if you had described something more like biglaw, but you said “blah,” so I’m figuring it’s not a crisis.)

    3. I’ve personally assigned a dollar value to the intangibles – things like good environment, good boss, short commute, etc. That’s helped me compare better. Of course, this only works once your compensation hits a level where you can take big cuts or big bumps.

    4. I took an almost 30% pay cut last year to go from a medium sized law firm to an in-house position at a nonprofit that I’ve loved for a long time. I absolutely think the paycut was worth it in terms of life and job satisfaction and would do it again every day of the week.

      There are a lot of considerations, though. I was in a really bad environment that was very severely affecting my mental health. It was way beyond feeling a bit blah. I feel a little blah in my current job sometimes because no place is perfect. With my old job, I also didn’t have time to develop outside interests or a life outside the firm. If you have time for that, I co-sign the poster above who encourages that approach.

      I had to make some big lifestyle changes. I sold my large, beautiful home that I got in a divorce (with a large mortgage) because I couldn’t afford it anymore. I loved that neighborhood but had to move to a different one to rent an apartment. I do love my apartment, but that has been a big adjustment. I have to watch my spending a lot more, and it is tough feeling like I don’t have a chance to have a certain lifestyle anymore. But on balance, all that stuff is worth the cut for me. And living more frugally has been rewarding in its own way.

      I think a big jump like this is something you have to be radically honest with yourself about to decide if it’s really possible and if it’ll really fix what you’re unhappy with.

      1. Thank you for your perspective about the real tradeoffs. Not the OP, but also considering making a move to the nonprofit world, and haven’t yet decided whether it’s worth it or not.

    5. My husband took a pay cut about this big a few years ago. New Oregon was a mission driven nonprofit, and the day-to-day work was also much more interesting. He has not regretted it at all. That said, we are in an MCOL area, and have been able to afford a comfortable middle-class lifestyle even after the pay cut. We own a home, which is modest but in a neighborhood we really love, and have been able to send our kids to a nice but expensive daycare, although we certainly wouldn’t be able to pay for private school indefinitely.

  6. Do you believe some guys are just not good texters? Or does the lack of contact between dates indicate that he’s not that into you?

    I’ve been on three dates with a guy. The last date was amazing, I felt like we really connected intellectually, and the gardening was fantastic. That was last weekend. Since then, he’s been very slow to respond to texts – it’s rare that he even responds the same day. We didn’t really text much before our earlier dates so I don’t have much to compare it to. But this is odd, right?

    We’re supposed to hang out tonight but we don’t even have solid plans yet. I’ve taken the lead on planning the other dates so I asked him to handle this one. Also, I’m going on a two week vacation in a week so if he’s not going to text me then I’m not sure how we would keep anything going while I’m away (if there’s anything to keep going by then). My friends think I’m being too hard on the guy and I should just see where it goes. What do you all think?

    1. Call him and make plans? Maybe I’m just old, but conducting an entire relationship via text message seems crazy-making.

    2. I dated that guy for 6 months. My friends all said that some people his age just don’t text much (he’s 10 years older than I am), and he (actually) was super not into being on his phone. But in the end, he just wasn’t that into me. He went on a work trip for two weeks that was very busy and I didn’t hear from him -at all- for 8 days. At that point, I decided this was a deal breaker for me, and ended things. (There were other issues, but this was the last straw)

      On the other hand, when I am just starting to date someone, I don’t necessarily want to text all that much. It has too much of a sense of this person I barely know wanting to be all in my life and also check up on me and see if I’m seeing other people. I definitely text in between dates, maybe one or two incidents of banter per 24-hour period, but if I’m busy with other things then I don’t prioritize responding until I’m free again, which might not be for half a day or a day.

      In your position, I would wait a bit and see how things go. But don’t wait 6 months!

    3. Some people, not just men, are not good texters. But if he’s into you, you will know. I’m not a great tester but if I want to do something with someone I will make it happen and either respond as soon as I can or text proactively, even if it’s one word or awkward texts.

    4. The first time I dated a guy who texted, it seemed to rocket the quality of interactions back to late middle school. It wasn’t any sort of quality interaction. I hated it. [And I had a pay-for-text plan then and b/c of that hadn’t evolved into a texter.]

      I have unlimited texting now and am still not a texter except to say “my plane landed” or “running late”. I use it more for my kids’ things — texting other parents re coordinating kids coming over or rides home or texting a babysitter. But to me it’s not a medium for growing a romantic relationship from nothing to something.

    5. I’m in this situation right now too! I haven’t decided what to do. On one hand, I respect that someone might just not like texting or being on their phone in general. On the other hand, I realize I am a text person and maybe it’s something I value more than I thought!

      I haven’t made a decision yet. I think if things go well I might bring it up in person and see if that sheds some light.

      1. I think we are two types of people — people with phone in hand and people who feel chained by it and try to keep it plugged in and in silent mode when not at work (so my phone rings for calls but is otherwise silent; I tend to get either cell calls I want to get from friends/family or urgent ones I need to take). I resent the hell out of — I need for my downtime to be downtime.

        Luckily my SO is cut from the same cloth. If I send a photo of something I see on a work trip, it’s like an FYI. No need to reply, especially not right away.

    6. I’ve so been there. Please bail while you can. I haven’t posted this quip in a long while, but it’s absolutely true and something I learned the very hard way:

      Interested men pursue; disinterested men do not.

      When a guy is into you, you’ll know. When you’re putting in all the effort – even if he’s nice to you and seems to enjoy your time together – he’s just not that into you / not emotionally available / consumed with his job / whatever. It’s not you, it’s him and whatever’s going on in his brain/heart. I promise that when you meet the right person you’ll know. That guy will reach out to you and want to see and make the effort. Please don’t waste any more of your time on guys who don’t. <3

      2. This is very true. I’ve asked myself the same question about more than one man — Is he just not a texter?? — and each time the real issue was that he just wasn’t in to me.

      4. 100%. If he’s not making any effort, then you are a nice distraction and someone to spend time with while he waits for someone better, who he likes more, to come along. When that “someone better” does come along, you’ll be dropped like a hot potato. No reason to wait around for that. I personally wouldn’t actively break it off, but instead do a slow fade – unless he just won’t fade out.

    7. I do think that some people aren’t great texters, but I also think that generally, when a guy is into you, he can overcome that at least a little. My boyfriend isn’t into texting, and now that we’ve been dating for almost a year, I don’t expect anything other than short informational texts from him (running late, etc.). But when we were first dating and making plans, he would clearly respond as soon as he could and would hold some short text convos. I’ve dated guys like you mention who respond the next day or wait until the last minute to make a plan, and those guys weren’t into me. I think you should ask him about his texting habits on your next date and can judge from there.

      1. Yep. This. My rule was “I don’t chase boys” and it cut down on the number of dates but the quality of the dates I did have skyrocketed.

        My husband is not much of a caller or a texter but he also made a big effort in the beginning and he was always proactive about making plans.

    8. I dated this guy for 4 months, and got really hurt. Looking back, it was clear that it wasn’t that he didn’t like to text, it was that he was not in to me. On the other hand, I’ve been seeing a guy for a few weeks now who isn’t really a big texter (but neither am I), but I do think he really likes me. He makes plans, expresses his interest, etc.

      I would look at the bigger picture to see if the lack of texts is just one of multiple signs that he isn’t that interested.

    9. Step away from the keypad. Many people find texting (and the expectation of an immediate response) distracting and annoying. If you want to see him, call him or set the next date before you leave the last one. If he doesn’t want to see you, he’s not obligated to attend. If you find that you think he’s not proactive enough and that’s a dealbreaker to you, you’re not obligated to see him.

  7. I am in a deep, deep work funk and have been procrastinating to an alarming degree because I just cannot force myself to buckle down and get to work. I’m burned out, overwhelmed, and frustrated every day. (And, I highly suspect that the management track I’m on is Not For Me because I spend most of my time doing stuff I hate rather than the tasks I actually semi-enjoy.) I haven’t found a new job yet, so I need to find a way to not completely eff up until I can get out. Any tips?

    1. OMG this is so me and I don’t know either. All the “little things” like taking walks during lunch are not helping. Looking forward to responses.

    3. The only way out is through. For me, that means setting timers to focus on work. On really rough days, they will be as short as 15 minutes. Focus on work begets better focus, in my experience.

    4. I’ve been there, and my advice is to start small. Do something that is relatively short and feels semi-achievable. I find that if I pass “I have so much to do I don’t even know where to start so let’s browse the internet” mode, I get into *getting things done* mode and it snowballs from there. But also, some days are worse than others, so be kind to yourself.

    5. This is my whole job because i have 2 small children and telecommute and getting it together to do anything is really challenging atm. Each day I decide the MINIMUM that I have to get done to make it a successful day. I do that, if I finish that, I can stop– or keep on working– depending on my mood. If I stop, at least I haven’t totally trashed my day/week. Also, I like to get stuff I’m dreading started sooner rather than later, because I find once I start on it & set up a plan, it’s not as daunting and awful.

    6. So, what are the things you are doing that you hate? What tasks do you enjoy? Just making a physical list would probably be a great start. Then start finding solutions to cut that hate column stuff OUT. When I started my management job, and in part due to mergers and acquisitions my company’s been going through for the last 4 years, I was in meetings morning to night, every single day. I HATED it. My job was (supposed to be) as a strategic and tactical team lead but I had no chance to do what I liked and wanted to do: take data from the business line, find holes, address tactically and create business strategies to prevent or proactively plug the holes. I was drained from my brain being sucked out every day via all these “information sessions” with a consultant or yet another new leader or some random person from a parallel acquisition who’s kind of the doing same thing and wants to “pick my brain”. I was in a deep, deep funk. I was incredibly behind on all my goals and even the idea of trying to pick things up was daunting. I was interviewing for new roles which inevitably paid less and I could not take a pay cut. After realizing that these endless meetings, that were ultimately only useful to the other party and not my team, were the root of the problem, I started ruthlessly cutting them out of my work day. Over two months of this concerted effort, I gained two uninterrupted days per week, save for team huddles, when I can do actual work. It was hard to use the time at first. I was so used to doing only urgent work and in 10 minute increments between meetings that the idea of sitting down to a project was frightening. This is where the “start small” advice is gold. Break down the things you like into small parts and start with the easiest thing. The interesting outcome is that not only am I much happier, but my boss has recognized improved team performance, and my immediate team feels more supported. I’m also finding out that all these hectic information sessions resulted in nothing. Consultants were fired, new leaders moved on to other jobs (to be replaced by yet new leaders, meetings with whom I politely declined), and the parallel team leads found their own ways of doing things. So all these frazzled management activities which seemed so important not to miss at the time were really a detriment to everyone.

  8. TLDR, help me find machine-washable, pull-on, wide leg pants?

    I got a pair from the Nordstrom sale and love everything about them but the color. I thought about keeping them anyway, but the hot pink just isn’t my color. So I’m looking for something similar. I know it’s a popular silhouette right now, so I hoped the hive might have some hot tips! I’m looking for: machine-washable, elastic-back waist/pull-on style, crepe-like finish, wider leg, cropped or ankle length (I have long legs, so full-length won’t work unless it’s a tall size), almost any color is fine except hot pink, less than $50. Any ideas?

    1. J.Jill has some pants like that. A little over your price range though, unless you can wait for a sale.

    5. I got a pair from UNIQLO a few years ago. The ones they had last time I looked were not the same fabric- very light “show everything” fabric, while mine was a heavy (but not hot) ponte.

  9. What’s the best, top-of-the-line relocation/moving company for an intercity move? We’re moving from East Coast to Chicago and aren’t price sensitive. Just want to find someone who will be careful with our things and trustworthy. TIA!

    1. I’m assuming you meant interstate move…

      All the household names (Mayflower, Allied, etc) are franchises, so it all depends on the local franchiser. Your local Yelp reviews are the best way to go there.

      I’m sad to discover that my favorite moving company, Graebel Van Lines – the only national movers that weren’t a franchise and were careful and considerate – bit the dust not too long ago.

    2. You can have several moving companies come give you an estimate. Even if you are not price conscious, it gives you visibility into the services they are providing and gives you a chance to basically interview them. As Anon said above, many moving companies are franchises or use subcontracts in certain locations. I had a great experience with Atlas in Boston, but they subcontracted out to a shockingly horrible local outfit at my destination. If you happen to be in Boston, Atlas did an incredible job packing for me. If they have a good reputation in Chicago, I would definitely consider them.

    3. Schleppers has done a beautiful job on several moves for me and people I know, wrapping furniture carefully and taking good care of everything. They are based in NY, but move people from the NY area nationwide.

    5. We have used northstar several times. I’m not sure they are top of the line… but they aren’t the cheapest.
      My husband insisted during one of our moves we use a cheaper company… at the last minute they jacked up the price and we felt like they did it thinking we didn’t have any other options and would have to agree. I told them hell no (I mean if they did business like this, who is to say they wouldn’t do something on the other end when they had our stuff?!) and called NorthStar & they saved us at the last minute. During one of the moves, we had a small claim for a desk that ended up with a broken leg and they were awesome about it. They asked me to send them either the receipt for buying it or the current price for it & send me a check for the full value to replace it even though the desk was about 7 years old.

  10. So, thanks to a lucky find to fly on miles, we’re headed to Venice in September. We pounced on the flights and now need to fill in our 9-night stay. Trying to decide whether to split our trip into two base locations (Venice + …where?) or base ourselves in Venice the whole time but do several day trips to nearby towns. We definitely want to stay in Venice a few nights as we’ve heard it’s so much more peaceful once the cruise visitors have cleared out… All advice welcome!

    1. If you haven’t been, take the train to Florence and stay there for part of the time. We went to Venice, Florence, and Rome in April, and I loved Florence so much more than Venice. Venice felt, in a way, like Disneyland (ie, really just caters to tourist), whereas Florence actually felt like a city people lived in. I would spend at least 3 nights in Florence, but 4 would be better.

      1. Also, if you’d like an unsolicited hotel suggestion for Florence, Ad Astra was delightfully quirky and wonderful. It’s on the nontouristy side of the Arno and about a 15-20 minute walk to the major tourist sites, but I enjoyed not being in the center of the crowds.

        1. One more tip on Florence that’s probably a controversial opinion-(assuming you don’t have any physical limitations) climb the dome of the Duomo, but don’t bother making a separate trip to see the inside of the cathedral. You have to reserve tickets to climb the Dome. Do that in advance, and get the first time in the morning. It’s early, like 8:30, but worth it to beat the crowds. Then, when you go in, before you start climbing (and after you go down but before you exit), pause a minute to look around the catherdral. The dome climb entrance has it’s own little sectioned off area, so you can’t wander around, but the inside is honestly not that impressive and you can have a decent view of the cathedral and inside of the dome on the dome climb. The lines to get inside the cathedral are long. Like we got there right when they opened and still stood in line for 2 hours. It wasn’t worth it and I wished we had just paused longer on the dome climb we had done earlier. The inside of San Croce was honestly more interesting than the inside of the Duomo cathedral.

      2. Agree with all of this. Florence is amazing. I’d also suggest checking out some of the other small towns in Tuscany.

      3. Definitely spend at least half the time in Florence. It’s a quick train ride away and IMO so much better than Venice. I found Venice kind of boring after a couple of days but I could totally spend 9 days in Florence with no lack of things to do.

    2. Hi! Also going to Venice in September. At the advice of this forum, we are going to Lake Garda (staying in Riva del Garda) for a few days too.

      I haven’t been yet, but from the research I’ve done, I think it may be worth looking at Verona, Bolzano, and Trento if you want to stay in that area near Venice. We are also going to Florence as part of our trip.

    3. I’d probably do Venice plus a few days up in the mountains – I’m very jealous!

    4. Florence is great, but if you want to say close to Venice, Bologna, Padoua, Verona and Ferrera are also nice. I’ve never been to Trieste but have heard good things. I really like Venice, though – I get how it can feel like Disneyland but it’s still breathtakingly beautiful and I found it easy to just walk off in a side alley and escape the crowds, especially if you aren’t going in July/August.

      1. I loved Bologna. We used it as a base for a trip (went to Florence, Ravenna, etc). There’s a lot to do and see and the food is incredible (they don’t call is Bologna the Fat for nothing).

      2. BEYOND EXCITED to see Ferrara mentioned on this board! I lived there for a year and absolutely love it. So underrated.

    5. Thanks everyone! I think we will definitely split our stay based on this — now to decide where :)

  11. Very specific question here, but does anyone have the Banana Republic lightweight merino wool cardigans that they have been selling for the past few years? I bought two (blue and black) over a year ago and the blue one got two small holes in the back (the second hole after I already brought the first one to be repaired). I at first thought I had moths but it is only this sweater that has gotten holes and I’ve since bought some moth deterrents and don’t see any other holes in other clothing. Last week I bought two more of these merino wool cardigans (again blue and black, different style) and the blue one has a hole after the first wear! Has anyone else had trouble with these BR sweaters? I love them otherwise (machine washable!), but maybe I need to give up as the quality just isn’t good enough.

    1. Yes, I’ve had this same problem. It is incredibly frustrating because they seem like good quality when I get them, and I don’t know of any other brands that have so many cardigans made with natural fibers. But yes, they seem to hold up well until I wash them and then seem to almost immediately fall apart.

    2. I have a few of these and none of them have gotten holes.

      I don’t know if I am exceptionally gentle on my clothes, but I don’t seem to get holes in them they way many here report. I’m not going to deny that clothing quality has taken a nose dive in the past several years, but I’m always a little baffled by the reports of spontaneous holes. I’m very curious about how this happens – clothing too tight? Closet too full so clothes rub against each other and wear out? Carrying a purse with rough straps? Washing in the same load as your ice skates?

      1. Thinner weight merino is just not durable and even though it’s washable, it doesn’t hold up well in a washing machine.

        1. +1. I suspect that because it’s labeled as “machine washable” it gets thrown in with a regular load.

          The reality is – ALL merino wool is machine washable – on a gentle cycle with cold water. Which is what I would do for any merino (or cashmere, or lambswool) sweater, regardless of the marketing. And I’d be putting it in a mesh bag to wash. The regular agitation cycle is hard on wool knits, so I do my best to baby them.

          1. I also think people (in general -not necessarily the OP) are quick to launder after every use. Wool sweaters are not intended to hold up to being washed that frequently.

          2. All wool is all washable, but if it is not spun from superwash fibers (where the individual scales on the hairs are either glued down or stripped off) it very well may come out of a washing machine felted into a doll-sized item. Some types of non-superwash-treated wool are naturally less prone to felting than others, however.

            You can wash any wool gently by hand, of course, regardless of whether it is superwash or not.

      2. Same here. I wash all my work clothes in cold water on gentle, never with other stuff, and have had very few laundry incidents. If I get a hole in a cardi, it is purely due to my own clumsiness. But, in general, I think I’m not as hard on my clothing as most people and I’m not sure whether that’s due to my stellar laundry habits (ha) or just luck.

        1. I also wash mine in the type of mesh bags that you get for washing bras. That seems to help too.

    3. Gap’s washable merino cardigans are going strong for me two years in. I looked at BR originally but was turned off by the hole reports. I also have one BR silk/cashmere sweater that sheds so much I’m surprised there is any fabric left. Whenever I wear it a cloud of sweater-colored fuzz follows behind me all day long. My Gap versions of the same cuts don’t have these problems.

    4. I don’t have the BR ones, but I have the Uniqlo ones (about $40 each), and I’ve been very, very happy with them. I don’t wash them that often, but after 40+ wears they are still in perfect condition. No pilling, holes, or anything like that. They’re my favorite thing to throw in a purse and wear either at the office over a blouse, or while traveling, because they take up so little space but are warm.

    5. Late reply — I had this issue with the merino wool v-neck sweaters — strangely enough, it was the cobalt blue that has holes after I wore it twice!! I have the dark blue, which is still going after two years though — so maybe there is a blue yarn out there that is weak? I have not moths — am in a condo, and all other wool/ merino is fine.

    7. Uniqlo does merino sweaters (v and crew cardigan, v and crew jumpers), and they hold up BEAUTIFULLY to machine washing.

    8. Yes, but not the button-up cardigans, the merino v-neck sweater version. Sooooo disappointing :( I *maybe* washed the thing once, and it had several holes, front and back. Couldn’t believe my eyes.

  12. RANT: I drive a state-owned vehicle for work. This morning, its check engine light came on. I email our fleet services person to tell him I need an appointment at the dealership to get it checked out, and he responds, “It’s probably just the service light.” I respond, “No, it’s definitely the check engine light.” He asks me to send him a picture of the light to confirm. I tell him I can’t right now, because I’m up in my office in the middle of things and my car is down in the parking garage, but that I’m positive it’s the check engine light, because it has A PICTURE OF AN ENGINE AND THE WORD “CHECK” ABOVE IT. He asks me to call him. I call, and he asks me again, because “people often get confused between the service light and the check engine light”. I’m running low on patience at this point, and I tell him that again, I’m quite positive it’s the check engine light. He says “ok, well I’ll make you an appointment at the dealership and they will be able to tell me which light it is.” ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?

    3. To be fair, as a student I worked at a helpline for a computer company, when people called with problems, the number one solution was, is the computer on. I get it, you know which light it was but this dude is probably dealing with all kinds of random dopiness every day.

      1. I err on the side of this — dude probably has a decision tree he needs to use b/c of random idiots, so it’s not about you. It’s the idiots who called for decades before you.

    4. This is where you muster you muster your most condescending attitude, a few well placed swear words and you let him know exactly how it’s going to be and what’s going to go down.

      Also, all the commiseration.

    5. I know this probably sounded condescending but I used to work at a car dealership and 80% of people who called did so because they were just dumb as nails. I can see where the fleet services guy was coming from, infact I had years of tedious conversations with people that make me intimately aware of how he is feeling.

    6. This sucks.

      In the future, you can find a picture of the dashboard lights online and use that to describe the issue. In my car, the “service” light is in the lower right corner and says “service” in orange letters against a black background. The CEL is one space to the left of it and has an orange background with black letters.

      If the person challenges you, ask them why their facts are wrong. “Why are you claims that the service light, which is located in the upper left corner, could be confused with the CEL light near the speedometer?”

  13. Update: I wrote a comment last fall asking for advice about whether to wait it out with my boyfriend who seemed unsure of actually getting married, or cut my losses and move on (we had been dating for 2.5 years and are in our early (me)/mid (him) 30s). He had been on board with it as a hypothetical but confronted with a discussion about actually doing it he reacted… very ambivalently/unsure. Got a lot of helpful perspective from this board both ways. He and I talked it out more and it turns out he needed a few months to adjust to the plan of actually doing it, then a few months to plan etc. And now we are engaged. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. Big question…have you determined a date yet? I’m sure his intentions are good, but just want you to stay on notice. I’m still alarmed that he needed months to adjust a “plan” then a few months to “plan” (what was he planning, how is adjusting a plan different than planning?) I’ve just seen too many friends placated into an engagement only to be strung along for another two years only to find out he thinks engagement is enough of a commitment. Of those who broke up (a few are still hopping along in year three of engagement…) about half those guys got married within a year and a half of meeting someone new. Sometimes it’s not a fear of being married but a fear of being married to the wrong person…make sure that’s not the case here.

      1. I hope you are one of the lucky ones and he just needed prodding, but there are a lot of situations like the person above describes. Or they get married and he has huge reservations about it but goes through with it anyway. (This describes my BIL.)

      1. Congrats East Coaster!

        I had a very similar situation- dated my now-husband for 7 years and many, many times I wondered if he was every going to propose and many times considered breaking up due to that. It was also over a year between the discussion about engagement (him asking my parents, asking me about ring preferences) and him actually popping the question. However, once he did actually propose things moved along quite quickly- I wanted a small simple ceremony and we were engaged in December and married in February. I think the the key is whether he proceeds with picking a date and planning in an expeditious manner… a lot of foot-dragging on date picking would worry me. But he might be like my now hubby- nervous about getting engaged, but once he took the plunge to become engaged to me, he was all in, and was eager to get the wedding done.

    5. good job on communicating your feelings and not being afraid to cut and run!

      The same scenario occurred with my now-husband and it’s worked out great for us, no more hiding the ball on feelings. Congratulations and enjoy! (also don’t forget that engagement time can be a relationship-stressor too!)

      :)

    7. Congrats! I think this is just a personality type. We didn’t have this issue with getting married… but my husband needs “time to think” on literally every freaking decision or change. Even if he’s not actively thinking on it, even if I 100% know what his decision will be in the end (he almost always goes along with what I want). We’ve been together 10 yrs. I just take this as a fact of life and build it into everything we do.

    8. Just chiming in with a little encouragement… my now-husband was also unsure about marriage, and we had been together for even longer. He went to therapy, thought it through, took the leap of faith to get married, and he now honestly does love being married and that formal recognition of having a life partner. Congrats!

  14. I just got laid off of my job of 13 years—the one I got a week after I graduated college. My head is swirling. Besides filing unemployment, what do I do next? My health insurance is with my husband’s job, so we’re all set there.

    I’d love to take some time to reassess what I want for my next job, but apparently my company is in such a dire financial situation that they can’t even pay out severance. As a result, I feel some pressure to get a job soon even though we have a pretty healthy emergency fund.

    1. I have no useful advice (except maybe give Shots! Shots! Shots! a call?) but I want to say I’m so sorry. You must be reeling.

    2. As someone who has been laid off twice in her working life, I can tell you that beyond filing for unemployment ASAP is to set up a schedule for yourself. It’s very easy to fall into the “why bother getting dressed if I have nothing to do?” rut… at least it was for me. Keep yourself busy, social, and networking; take classes on whatever; go to the library; exercise; make sure to talk to people in person besides your husband; etc.

      Have a discussion with your husband about money. Tell him that you’d like to take some time to grieve the loss of a 13-year old job and assess what you want to do next… Can you survive on his salary and your unemployment? Can you cut some things while you are not working? How much will you have to dip into your emergency fund?

      Do not feel pressure to jump into the working world again (people/family can make you feel really bad about not working) but also set a goal for yourself (i.e. “I will take a month sabbatical and then start seriously applying for jobs”). My state made me track and log the jobs I applied to every week in order to get unemployment and attend career workshops (also look into having taxes taken out of the unemployment checks so that you don’t have to pay in/owe).

      Getting laid off for me felt like the stages of grief but I came out of the whole experience really knowing myself better… I wish you all the luck in the world!!

  15. Happy Friday! My office has embraced casual dress for the summer so today I’m wearing cropped navy Boden pants, and a floral-print jersey blouse and pink Rothy’s. Thanks to whoever recommended the Richmond 7/8 pants, I love them!
    Shamelessly plugging Rothy’s (I think I wore my two pair every day this week) if anyone would like $20 off – https://share.rothys.com/x/uYjW5A

  16. I’m too clutzy to wear a shirt with such delicate trim (I’d rip it inside of a week) but I am loving this purplish-gray that’s becoming popular now.

    1. I have this shirt in black and like it a lot. It doesn’t seem that delicate, unless you regularly claw at your neck or shoulders? It’s not a tight-fitting top, so you shouldn’t tear the armholes. And the lace is bounded by regular fabric, so it’s not like it’s going to catch on anything.

  17. Hi! My husband and I are headed to Asheville next month for an anniversary getaway. Any recommendations for activities or restaurants? We’ve been before, so we’ve seen the Biltmore (and we’ll definitely spend a day on the grounds this trip), we’ve eaten at Cucina 24, The Market Place and 12 Bones (that I specifically remember) on prior trips, and we know about and will revisit French Broad Chocolates. We’re staying in the Biltmore Village area, but are happy to wander around town or outside town for good recommendations. Thanks!

    1. I’ve had a wonderful time at white duck taco, waterbird, and save me the waltz (jazz club/cocktail bar).

      1. +1. Admiral is excellent. Also, go have dinner or even just a drink at the Grove Park Inn around sunset. The views are beautiful.

    3. I enjoyed white duck taco and Rhubarb, and have heard good things about Curate.

    5. Our upcoming Asheville agenda includes dinner at Curate, spa day at Grove Park, and checking out the breweries. I’ve heard good things about Bhramari and Burial, we already know we like Wedge, Wicked Weed and GreenMan.

  18. I’m spending a four weekend at Sequoia next month and am wondering about food. There are a number of restaurants in the park, but I’m unsure if there are other nearby dining options, groceries, etc. Any advice? And, for that matter, any advice about what to do or see while I’m there?

    1. Not sure I have ever seen a restaurant in Sequoia national Park. The campground has some kind of store. I love the Gateway restaurant in Three Rivers, except for Sunday brunch.
      The Topokah falls trail is easy and hopefully still as stunning as six weeks ago. There should still be plenty of water in the river and the falls. Giant sequoias are an obvious must.
      I’ve never been to Fresno underground gardens but I have heard good things. Could be another stop along the way.

      2. I feel like Fresno is pretty far away. Visalia is the official gateway to sequoia national park (hometown shoutout!) and there are a number of good restaurants on Main Street. But this would be on your trip in or out. I’d spend a night at the Marriott just to get a good shower in when you’re done, and they have a pretty good breakfast buffet.

    2. I don’t remember the name, but there is a great sandwich spot in Three Rivers not too far from Mineral King Road. Yelp will bring it up. Nothing ever tasted so good after two days of backpacking at high altitude.

  19. Low stakes Friday topic: opinions on the speculation that the new Taylor Swift song, Calm Down, is actually about Donald Trump. Lyrics and timing seem to add up to a yes.

    1. I’m a no. Tays only recently shown any small interest in politics and has lots of other people in her life who could calm down.

    2. I think it’s just generally about homophobes, and Trump certainly falls into that category.

    3. I think it’s about her haters, especially Kim and Kanye, and she just tried to shoehorn in gay pride so she wouldn’t be called out as STILL hung up on Kim and Kanye. I hate it (and the first single from this album) and can’t believe this is the same person who wrote All Too Well and State of Grace.

    4. I doubt it, I suspect her politics are a lot more conservative than many of her fans enjoy (yes I know she endorsed a dem in some particular race but…..she’s a biden at best IMO).

    5. I don’t think so. Has Trump ever insulted her in the early AM? Seems like it’s at someone who has done that (damn, it’s 7AM).

  20. Tips on fighting an out-of-network insurance charge? I double-checked everything prior to a recent surgery to ensure the doctor, anesthesiologist, hospital, everything was in-network, got the surgery preapproved, jumped through all of the hoops. Got my EOB yesterday and it turns out they used an outside company for a new type of monitoring tech (I had no idea that this was a part of the surgery ahead of time) and the company is out of network. . .$8k later. . .

    1. Several states have banned this practice. Check and see if you live in one. Search “balance billing” or “surprise billing.” There are dozens of bills in Congress right now to address this and lawmakers are really worked up about this. (And the odds of something passing this year are good, which is shocking given the state of our politics.) I’d push back against this HARD. Check with your state’s consumer advocate.

    2. Had this happen in the ER. Hospital was in network but the ER staff was not. I lost my
      mind & wrote to the president of the hospital threatening to take a full page ad in the local county newspaper reporting them. The bill went away:)

      1. You are seriously my internet hero of the day! I bow to your prowess – kudos to you!!

      2. Also, start with your ins. Plan. I was balance billed twice by a company that was subcontracted to the hospital. My insurance fought with them and the hospital and left me out of it.

  21. Are you a spender or a saver, and why do you think you are that way? Is your partner the same as you are, or the opposite, and do you think you chose consciously? It’s the most recent money diary that makes me think of this. The thought of doing a money diary makes me shudder. I hate thinking about money.

    I am a spender in a pretty excessive and scary way. It makes no sense to me, since my parents were both frugal and my sibling is very much the same. My parents grew up poor; I grew up middle class, definitely not lavishly but never feeling unstable. I’ve struggled with eating disorders and it all seems intertwined to me. Spending out of control and eating out of control go hand in hand.

    My husband is very much a saver. We balance each other out. The guy would still be wearing poofy pleated pants if I didn’t force him to update his wardrobe. I would probably be living in a fancy but rented apartment and own a closet full of red-soled shoes – but have zero retirement savings – if he didn’t enforce (that’s the wrong word – expect?) smart financial planning.

    1. I’m a saver, my husband is a spender. It does cause some friction. I grew up in an upper middle class household because my single mom hustled and saved. She instilled real financial knowledge and responsibility in me for which I am forever grateful. My husband grew up working class in a family that didn’t bother to save for college educations or big homes because they just assumed those things wouldn’t be in reach anyway. His parents’ financial acumen is still, sadly, limited, and they are fortunate that they both have generous pensions.
      I want the UMC lifestyle for my kids that I enjoyed, and am willing to forego small luxuries to save for it. (we are early thirties with no kids yet). My mom was able to pay for my college in full, and not having student loans has been an incredible gift that I want to be able to give our children. My husband is coming around to that, but still fights the “I want it I get it” mindset because we are earning more money than he would have thought possible, and therefore he has this idea that we are rich. (We are not). I think long-term, he thinks short-term. It also helps that I’m pretty minimalist by nature and hate clutter, so my desire to spend money on things is limited. Our compromise has been that we put a certain amount to savings automatically and then what’s left is spending money. This keeps me happy because I’m comfortable with our savings amount, and it keeps him happy because he can spend what’s in the checking account.

    2. I’m a saver, but I’ll spend more for quality and prioritize travel. Definitely this way because of my parents – they immigrated here in their 20’s with barely any money for my dad to go to UNC for his PHD, and a combo of their frugality and my dad’s job, they paid for all 3 kids college, paid for half of my wedding, and even though I’m married and 27, they own my car and pay for my car insurance. I’ve tried to say no, but it’s their culture, they work this hard and save money to help their children as much as possible.
      My husband isn’t a saver, but it’s not like he spends recklessly, he just doesn’t worry about money like I do. His family is probably in the 1%, they paid for all his schooling, have a few vacation homes, etc. He thinks we can afford all the travel, always tells me to treat myself while I budget track every dollar.
      I think we’re pretty generous to friends and family, but to balance, we bring lunch to work, I will shop at 3 different grocery stores to get certain items on sale, I almost never buy anything for full price. He is currently in residency so in order to travel like we do, we have to budget. Not sure what will happen when he becomes an attending, but I like being frugal if it doesn’t affect our quality of life. I also have thought about the similarities between money/eating.

    3. I’m a saver. Pretty sure it is a direct result of growing up poor, and therefore (a) wanting a substantial savings net and (2) not being used to having all the things, so my wants are a little lower. But there are things I pass up. I would love to do more group exercise classes, for example, but can’t justify the price.

      On the other hand, I don’t think money and food go hand and hand. I’ve have incredible self-discipline with money, but not with food.

      1. Same here..I sometimes wish I had the same discipline with food as I have with money. I would not be carrying 20 extra pounds on me if that was the case.

    4. Can I be both?

      I was once stood in the grocery store buying dishwasher detergent pods with my husband, and I was looking at each shelf tag to see the price per unit. He asked, “How rich would you have to be to not do that math?” I answered that I don’t think there’s any level of income I could have where I wouldn’t “do that math.” I’ll always want even my dishwasher tabs to feel appropriately priced for the convenience and clean dishes that I’m paying for, so I’ll always want to know. (That said, if brand A were always the same good price and I liked them, I wouldn’t check EVERY time.)

      But I also pay for the fancy lemon-bar-flavored ice cream even when it’s not on super sale, because I can’t quantify the enjoyment I get out of that. And, as my husband would say, “You can’t take it with you.”

      1. +1. I spent far too much time pricing bar soap in a grocery store in Saas Fe, Switzerland, which was quite possibly the most expensive place I’ve ever been.

    5. Saver. And I don’t just mean putting 19k in retirement, I mean saving about 50% of my net on top of that. Give or take – some jobs I’ve saved 50-55% of my takehome, others with a lower salary, I’ve saved more like 35-45% until I got some raises that allowed me to get to the 50% mark. I clothes shop 1x/year always after Black Friday so I still buy nice clothes (BR for work; Gap/Uniqlo casual) so I don’t stand out in a cheap way but I buy when things are deeply discounted and I end up spending about $600-700/year on that. I save by keeping my overhead low – not getting as much house or car as someone with my income would but still nice houses/cars; I don’t save day to day — meaning I eat lunch out every day, I’m not doing any math in the grocery store aisles (though I’ve also never stepped foot in a Whole Foods or Wegmans or similar “luxury” grocery store — I shop at Kroger/HT etc. just like my parents did when we were kids).

      Why did I start doing this — started in biglaw where I knew that job/income wouldn’t last forever and I was insistent that I was leaving there with a nest egg — which to me meant a NW of 500k+. It ended up a bit higher than that when I left, but then I moved to a cheaper city and even on a government salary, it isn’t hard to live below my means without feeling like I am living in a dump eating hot dogs.

    6. So weirdly, while I am more of a spender than my husband who is really frugal, he is the one with way more lack of control over his eating.

      I don’t necessarily think I’m a “spender” to normal people, but compared to my husband, I absolutely am. I grew up in an upper middle class suburb where we were problem in the bottom 10-25% of income. We were not poor by any means– I don’t think I understood what poverty meant. I thought I was not well off because my parents could not afford designer clothing or ski trips. Now, I generally cook my meals and bring my lunch, etc. However, I do like to buy nice things– by nice I mean J Crew/Everlane and occasional international trips — because I was not able to do that growing up and we can afford to do so now.

      DH also grew up middle class, but his mother grew up very poor. Growing up, he also dealt with several family emergencies that would have affected their income– his dad (who was the sole earner) got laid off and his mother had breast cancer. I think because of this, he is very focused on having an emergency fund (which isn’t a bad thing). DH also cares less about having nice things and buys clothes on Amazon but would eat out every meal if possible. DH is also very focused on saving for retirement and has always been, I think because his parents always talk about retirement savings. However, his father is one of those people that saved well for retirement and put off doing anything fun prior to retirement, and is now in such poor health that he won’t be able to enjoy retirement at all.

    7. I am the saver in the house and he is the spender. But he feels that he is becoming a saver because of my influence. I have not asked him to change his ways. However, he sees me making the decisions about purchases and how I end up not buying many things. So, he feels a bit guilty about spending on frivolous stuff and ends up not buying it.

      1. Are you me? I love being frugal, and am a bit of a prepper in general. I like watching my nest egg grow.
        DH used to be more spendy, and still is in one regard – he will do anything not to have to cook. But I have the impression that me being such a tightwad has taken any stigma out of openly saying “I don’t want to spend that much on this thing” and therefore getting generic brand/delaying the new shiny phone/whatever. He did recently start taking piano lessons, which helped me also splurge on myself a bit more (monthly massage).

        1. :-)
          Yup..enjoy being frugal. I don’t even feel I am making sacrifices to save money. I feel we have all our needs met (renting an apartment in safe neighborhood, good quality food, quality but less pieces of clothing, reliable car and two 4 day vacations per year, mostly to national parks). I don’t even want anything more.
          I just like making money (like want to take up side jobs, though there is absolutely no need to take one). My sense of freedom grows proportionally with investments. I think that is priceless.

          Now, that I read what I wrote, I have a revelation. I think I am just like the spenders. Spenders and savers are doing what they are doing to feel good. Spenders feel happy with stuff or experiences that they buy with their money. Savers feel happy with buying money itself (in the form of my salary, dividends, interest etc). Though both behaviors arise from the same basic need, the end result couldn’t be more different.

    8. I’m mixed? I would describe myself as very responsible with money but also not afraid to treat myself to luxuries I can afford. I’ve never had consumer debt, have paid student loans (now gone) and mortgages very aggressively, and max out my retirement accounts. But I’m fortunate to have quite a bit of money leftover after doing those things, and I’m not afraid to spend $10k on a vacation or treat myself to $5 coffee whenever I feel like it. I don’t really spend money on clothes or cars, but that has less to do with an attempt to save money and more to do with not having a particular interest in those things.
      My husband is a saver to the extreme. He earns six figures in a LCOL area and if it were entirely up to him, we’d never travel, never eat out, drive 25 year old cars, use coupons at the grocery store, etc. and bank probably 80% of our post-tax salaries.

      1. Yup, I feel like being a “saver” looks more mixed now that I have more money. I save a lot of money, but I can also spend a lot more than I used to (still in accordance with my values) without it impacting my overall finances. I’ll now buy that $5 coffee when I want, though the price definitely impacts how often I want it.

    9. I am a saver 100%. I grew up in an upper middle class family, but my parents were always fairly frugal day to day (except for the house we lived in & every other yr trips across the world to see my grandmother which was a huge priority to them). I think it is inline with my personality (I’m the opposite of a procrastinator), but my parents talked openly about finances and what their plans were growing up and that made a big impact on me. I track all of our money and check it regularly. I also automated our saving & investing years ago. Lifestyle bloat has gotten to us though and even though we make great salaries, with a mortgage & 2 kids, I’d like to be more conscious of our spending.
      My husband has no idea about our finances. I literally have to sit him down and get him to repeat stuff back to me twice a year (I don’t want him to be in the dark if anything happens). I often joke that I could be funneling all the money to aruba and he’d have no idea. I’m pretty sure if we weren’t married he’d just keep all of his money in a savings account or under his mattress. He buys a lot of video game/toy stuff… which stressed me out because I think it’s wasteful both on a money level, and also on a space level– but when I count it out, it’s usually less than $200/mo so I try to keep my feelings to myself (he’s in big-law, if that’s his one vice… whatevs).

      1. “my parents talked openly about finances and what their plans were growing up and that made a big impact on me”
        When I was in elementary school, my parents used to do the budget. They would dictate me all the numbers. I had to write it down, add my parents salaries, subtract all the expenses. So, I was aware of our family finances when I was in probably 2nd or 3rd grade. They would tell me what they would do with the leftover money (savings, pay extra on mortgage etc). Sometimes, when they took me to bank to update passbooks, they would show my how much interest they had earned, stock and bond certificates. etc. Big big influence on me.

    10. I am a spender. While I do have 401k, I do not have a large savings and I’m still dealing with credit card debt from being unemployed 4x in a span of 5 years. I have recently come to realize that I online shop when I’m bored and unhappy (quite often lately. Sigh). But I will never pay full price. I will wait months for things to go on sale or to have a promo code or have free gifts that I can sell… And then I moan about having too much stuff. It’s a horrible cycle; “shopping bulimia” maybe? I often feel as though I’m having a mid-life crisis at 36 and that I need to get my sh*t together because I am so behind my peers when it comes to money, saving, and investing. Now I feel desk tears coming on. Oof.

      1. Hugs, if you want them. I’m definitely not a saver. I have credit card debt. I know I should be saving more for retirement. And everywhere on the internet it’s the savers who are vocal (and I get it) and it just makes me feel bad about myself.

        1. I’ve never thought about it from your POV, and I just want to say I’m sorry if this thread made you feel bad. For what it’s worth I am actively working on worrying about money less because it doesn’t achieve anything and it takes up so much space in my thinking constantly. Comparison is the thief of joy – don’t feel bad about yourself because others *seem* to have finances managed “better” than you. Big hugs to you both!

        2. Me too. I live in a HCOL city, and rent is over 50% of my take home. I’m in PSLF so I just pay whatever IBR tells me on my loans each month (no private loans) and hope to god that doesn’t go sideways. I have very little savings, retirement or otherwise. I’m 26 and until last summer I was 100% sure I was going to die far before retirement was an issue because of a chronic health condition. Some new meds came out and I’m now probably going to live a normal or almost normal length life. I haven’t switched up my savings. I have a minuscule emergency fund. Very little credit card debt (usually under $1K, a bit higher right now). I am going on a big trip this summer but all of the expensive stuff is because my grandpa put aside money from the time I was diagnosed in a trust and I’m using that. I am saving each month for that myself, and can move that savings over to retirement after the trip. But yeah. I feel terrible reading “I save 85%! I max out retirement!” I have to figure it out soon. A better paying job likely won’t have the amazing work life balance of mine now- and with my illness, I have to have that. These threads suck.

        3. I hadn’t thought about it that way but you’re right – the savers are everywhere and us spenders likely feel an amount of shame, so we aren’t vocal… I appreciate all the lovely replies :) I’m also glad to know that I’m not alone in this battle!

      2. I was a hardcore saver in my 30s, after I got my first real job after years of grad school. But now, in my late 40s… well… I still save quite a bit, but at a lower rate than in my early years. The dollar amount is more because my salary has increased, but I could do better.

        I want to say to Anon at 1:34 that I totally understand the urge to online shop. You’re bored or frustrated and the computer is RIGHT THERE full of pretty things you can own. I know I shop too much and have too much stuff. For some reason, it’s really hard to stop, even with the tricks like unsubscribing from emails, letting things sit in the cart overnight, tracking your spending… I saw something once that hypothesized that over-shopping can be a sign you feel less control in other areas of your life, which kind of makes sense. I don’t want to go into details, but there are definitely areas of my life that are very frustrating and feel like I can’t fix or control, but by god, I can buy that lovely pair of shoes!!

        So, just wanted to let you know that you are not alone.

        1. Thank you Anon Shopper :) I agree with the “out of control” aspect…. I also have some of those areas of my life that I’m struggling to manage, deal with, and understand how to move forward. For now, I’m not destitute, all my bills are paid on time, and I’m making steps so there’s that! I think it’s the “if I buy x, then maybe it will make me happy/in control/feel better”. Too bad there isn’t an anon forum for spenders; it’s a very uncomfortable topic, especially with hardcore savers (I don’t blame them, I have my shortcomings and saving is one of them)…. it’s like reading the comments on Money Diaries! Thank you for responding – hopefully we both find a way to be at peace :)

  22. Reminder about Slow Fashion Season, for anyone interested in a shopping ban with structure and/or the environmental impact of the fashion industry. They’re seeking 10,000 people commit to not buying any new clothes June 21-Sept 21, and it’s looking like they’re almost at the goal but have one more week to recruit! I’m watching closely because I’m on the hook if they make it. Link to follow.

    Btw, second-hand shopping does not count.

    3. I will sign up too..I have spent a total of less than $200 of clothes (all of it linen for summer) this year and I plan on not spending any money on clothes for rest of the year anyways..

  23. General question about going to therapy. Does anyone go to therapy on a sort of irregular basis just whenever they feel like they need to go? I saw a therapist for a three month period about two years ago for help with general depression/anxiety issues (never any official “diagnosis.”) It helped me decide to make some big changes and I started feeling better so I decided to stop going (therapist was cool with that). I’m just feeling not great again and I sort of want to make another appointment just to get a bunch of things out of my head. Do people do therapy sessions in short bursts of 1-2 sessions? I can ask my therapist if he’s okay with that, I’m just more wondering if that’s a weird thing for me to want to do? I also can’t afford to go back into regular therapy and I’m not sure that’s really necessary for me right now anyway. I’d appreciate hearing from anyone who’s thought about this type of thing.

    1. Are you me? I literally did exactly what you are describing (three months in therapy two years ago, things got better, stopped going, currently wondering if I ‘need’ to go back based on how I’ve been feeling lately).

    2. I do check ins from time to time. This is something fairly common. Especially if you need siutational help.

    3. I did this, going to get through the Kavanaugh hearing. I was clear up front that it was to deal with a specific issue and the therapist was great. We ended the last session with her saying that if I wanted ongoing support she is there and if not she understood and her door is open in the future.

    4. I started with my therapist for four sessions on anger management (a course he teaches) and we said we’d see if I wanted to continue. He’s been great for me and I like him a lot, so I continued every other week. We’ve now moved to an every three weeks schedule and I can definitely see us going to a once a month/once every couple of months in the near future.

      I’ve been doing self-improvement/self-awareness work by myself, including with the Enneagram for about a year now, so this therapy schedule is fairly manageable and helpful because I’m fairly self-aware about what I need to work on, so he is there to give me the tools and gives me “homework” and we retool as needed.

  24. What do we think ladies — husband and I moved away from NYC a few years ago and the #1 thing both of us miss is good pizza. Whenever we go to visit his family in NJ, he always wants to (and usually does) pick up a pizza on the way out before we hit the highway. Now this isn’t a man who will bother with some kind of cooling pack/or breaking up the pizza and putting it into a cooler. So it rides on the seat in its box for 4-5 hours until we get home and then goes into the fridge when we arrive and is pulled out and reheated for dinner that night (and sometimes left overs the following night). Murphys law being what it is — these rides home always happen on hot sunny days, never on cool rainy days; whatever seat the pizza is on is exactly where the sun will shine for 4 hours. We run the car AC of course but that doesn’t satisfy the rule of don’t leave food out over x time at y temp. So settle this – would you eat, or no? Husband always goes on about – oh in college at my frat house pizza sat out for days on end, everyone ate it, you’re being finicky. Mind you college was almost 20 years ago.

    2. You can buy the insulated pizza bags that delivery people use for Amazon… just add ice.

    3. Meh – I’d probably be fine with it. It’s bread (which is okay at room temp), cheese (which is okay at room temp for awhile), and toppings. The meat toppings are cooked thru, so don’t feel problematic for being out a few hours (vs something like deli meat or burgers cooked rare/medium).

      Its less than a quarter of day. If i was really hungry, I’d probably eat pizza that had been sitting out for a day.

      1. This sounds like a game show titled “Would You Eat That Pizza?”, the answer to which almost every scenario for me would probably be “Yes,” as a native Chicagoan who felt the exact same withdrawal feelings when she moved to California. WHERE’S THE PIZZA, PEOPLE?? (Domino’s doesn’t count — blew my mind that there wasn’t a city-wide pizza chain in addition to your local neighborhood pizza place.)

    4. I would eat it but that doesn’t mean you have to! This is a close enough call that neither of you is clearly wrong (or right), it’s really just personal preference. You shouldn’t tell him he shouldn’t eat it, and he shouldn’t tell you that you should eat it.

      I lived with a guy who had an iron stomach, seriously he would keep eggs for a month, raw chicken for 2 weeks, yogurt after the top had molded – NOTHING fazed this guy. Problem was, he thought this was totally normal and refused to believe that just because food doesn’t smell like death doesn’t mean it’s ok to eat. He had primary responsibility for cooking and grocery shopping. I kept getting terrible stomach upsets and couldn’t figure out why. He never admitted he did anything wrong but he kept misleading me about how old food was, so he must’ve known on some level. Needless to say it didn’t work out.

    5. I would eat it, no problem. But I would probably also spend the $20 or so to get an insulated bag, not because I think the pizza is unsafe to eat but because I think it would cut down on the smell during the drive. There is no way I’m driving 4-5 hours smelling pizza and not eating it

    6. If it sat out open on my counter during a gathering from 6pm until 11pm (and somehow did not disappear altogether), I would not hesitate to put it in the fridge then eat it cold the next day. I would certainly never reheat it, because that is because I abhor the way reheated pizza changes in texture.

      Anecdote: I have family who live a 15 hour car ride away from our favorite pizza joint. They order pizzas to go when they leave, drive 15 hours back home a stack of 5 or 6, put them in the fridge, and survive on nothing but leftover pizza for the next several days.

      1. Do you microwave to reheat? I find that it makes the texture supper chewy. Broiler or frying pan give better results.

        1. I don’t reheat, period. Neither in nor on the oven, not in the microwave (although chewy microwave texture doesn’t bother me as much as the cardboard-crust of other options, strangely enough).

          2. That’s exactly what I don’t like! But really, I *enjoy* cold pizza. That is not a problem I need to have fixed. :)

      2. My dad got me a Reheatza for Christmas and it warms up leftover pizza so well i sometimes like it more than fresh.

      1. OP here – when we do this, we def always get plain or maybe a vegetable topping. Definitely no meat.

    8. For what it’s worth, friend of mine who is an attorney who specializes in class actions on spoiled food will eat days old pizza.

      A bachelor friend of mine will actually turn on the passenger side seat heater to keep his fast food and pizza warm, which I thought was hilarious.

      1. I do this when I pick up takeout near work to keep things in good shape for the ride home. It helps!

    10. Definitely would eat. Pizza doesn’t spoil easily. But a few days ago I left a Cheesecake Factory cheesecake in a 90 degree car (no AC running) for 4 hours and I still ate it (and was fine). So I’m a bit shruggy guy emoji about food safety.

        1. Well, I don’t think it’s entirely luck…My casual attitude about eating unrefrigerated food has probably helped me build up a higher tolerance.

          1. 100% would too, ha ha. I think this is personal preference, but this is not egg salad. Maybe if you have a sensitive stomach, but I’ve always been a tank, so I would not hesitate to eat this at all.

        2. uhhh … I would have totally eaten that too. Not even close to the most questionable thing I’ve eaten. And for what it’s worth, I’ve never gotten food poisoning. I do think some people just have stronger stomachs

    11. I tend to get picky when it comes to food safety, but 4-5 hours should be fine! Some things wouldn’t be fine after that, like fish or raw meat, but pizza should be okay with that time window. Pizza that’s been sitting out for 8+ hours might be concerning though. If you do it and find it often makes you sick, then re-evaluate.

    12. Thanks ladies. I knew this board would know. Can’t believe I didn’t even think that we can buy the bag that the delivery folks use. Won’t have time to do that this weekend, but will buy one.

    13. We leave pizza (especially cheese pies) out over the weekend. My fiance was doing it in his house for years before we got together and they always did it growing up (and he’s a born and bread NYC’er, his dad was an NYPD cop) so I just picked up on it when we moved in. I wouldn’t worry about it.

    14. Unless it has something on it like an egg that would spoil, I’d eat it.

    15. Yeah, 100% would eat. I am that person that performs miracles to ship or fly with location specific foods (not smelly) to surprise friends, so yeah, this isn’t a big deal at all. It’s processed food.

  25. Will be hosting a friend with her 15 month old. What types of things do kids that age do? Child free here. Should we plan to go to the zoo and parks/playgrounds or is that too little for stuff like that?

    1. Sure, zoo & playgrounds work for that age. (There can be some nuance for playgrounds that may be too old for a 15 month old, but generally you should be good – especially if you know they have “little kid” swings (like the bucket vs. a regular swing), that is a good indicator). I’d just ask her though what she thinks?

      I would also definitely ask about the nap/bedtime schedule & how strictly she wants to stick to that while there. 15 month old may still be on two naps a day. We were those annoying people that were strict about those things even when travelling, which would limit stuff like an all day zoo trip etc. (but would come in handy for hang out kid-free down time w/ the hosting friends!).

    2. I’d ask your friend. Personally, I think zoos and aquariums are a waste of money for my 15 month old. She likes animals but isn’t old enough to really get excited about them or really appreciate what is happening, and those things tend to be pretty expensive, so we generally avoid them for now. Playgrounds are great though!

    3. What city are you in? Agree to everything above. 15 months is a funny age where a lot of the kid stuff is too “big” for them and you can still get away with a lot of adult activities depending on the kid.

  26. Recs for neighborhood and/or hotel for a three night stay in Lisbon in October?

    1. Who is going?
      DH and I just stayed just adjacent to Jardim do Principe Real, and thought it would have been amazing if it were just us, tons of restaurants, bars, and shopping while feeling very safe. We had our two young kids with us, and while it was nice to have a small playground nearby, it was a bit of a hike from much of the traditional tourist stops, and if we went back with kids, I’d probably stay closer to the river. We stayed in an Air Bnb that was just lovely.

        1. Then I’d definitely look at that neighborhood! It felt very trendy, but not touristy. Really fun.

    2. Teatro b&b! Stayed there for our honeymoon and it was fab… and that breakfast… omg!

  27. Kind of late in the day for this so I might also repost next week– have any of you had au pairs? Please lay out the good, the bad & the ugly. I just had my 2nd kid and will be on maternity leave for a few months… but think this could be the answer to our child care issues. We live in a place with lots of snow days and I travel a lot. #1 is in full time day care, but an AP would be the cost of a nannyshare or daycare for #2, with I hope some added benefits of support during those times we need it. My husband is very private and is not as on board with the idea.
    We live in a big city walking distance to a metro in a smallish 4br house. This would mean giving up our 1 free room. We also both work from home more than 50% of the time. Any advice appreciated.

    1. There’s been some discussion about them on the moms page. But if your husband is private and not on board with it, it seems like kind of a non-starter. Having someone live in your house is one of those things that everyone has to be ok with.

      1. I should look at the moms pg. I’ve been a reader/commentor here for 10 years but never got into the moms page! I told my husband if he’s 100% against the idea to tell me and I’d drop the discussion… but he hasn’t, so I’m going with the idea that he is open to it.

    2. I don’t have kids but my husband’s cousin has an au pair from Columbia. I was surprised to learn that there is a strict 40 hr/week limit, so they’re very conscious of that and have to move around hours. She’ll help when she’s “off the clock” but that’s all voluntary. The contract is only for a year, and she’s going to leave because she doesn’t like how cold it is where they live. I’ve also seen her cry twice to another family member because she feels so different from the family, which was heartbreaking. They bring her on all of their trips and pay for her travel, but the lifestyle is so different from what she’s used to. I think it’s a little overwhelming. Throw in not knowing English as well as she’d like, and I think it’s harder on her than she expected.

      1. You’re surprised to learn that au pairs are not supposed to be exploited for free or nearly-free labor?

        1. I truly never thought about the difference between an au pair vs a live in nanny and the hours they can work

      3. It’s 45 hrs and yes, I’m aware. Our daycare schedule is 9-5, so this would give us extra over that. Our jobs are fairly flexible, we just have to get stuff done.

        1. More- also, we picked out someone we like & she’s an extension, so I actually got to meet her in person and she knows the deal and what it entails.

    3. I have a couple of friends with au pair and the biggest hurdle is the hours limitation. If you have a long commute or inflexible hours you will hit 45 easily.

      I telework frequently and that made an au pair a non-starter — I do not want to contend with loud kid noises or distractions when I am home.

      1. I also telework a lot and this was an issue when we had an apt- our nannyshare was at the other family’s house. But right now, when we have snow days and sick days, I just want to kill someone… it’s so overwhelming. I think having an AP here would at least distract the kids.

    4. You have to think of it as you’re getting an extra family member for a year. They’re not an employee in the same way that a nanny is. With a nanny, they watch your kid and in exchange you pay them. It’s more complicated with an au pair. They watch your kid, but they live with you, and you’re not really paying them market value and part of that is that you’re supposed to be helping them have a good experience in the US. If both you and your husband are not on board with that and you’re mostly just viewing an au pair as a cheap/convenient labor option, then I wouldn’t do it.

      Upsides — Your kids (and you!) will get a new family member with interesting experiences and perspectives. It’s great for language learning if that’s something you’re interested. No need to worry about the nanny’s car breaking down, etc. although you’ll need to find additional care (or pay your au pair more) if you want more than 40 hours a week of care.

      Downsides — The au pair will likely be young, will probably experience a bit of culture shock, you might have a tough time communicating, they’ll probably be a little lonely, it can be tough having someone new around all the time, especially in a small house, etc.

    5. No advice but we decided against after doing some research initially because we work from home and just having my Mom here for a few days watching the kid during snow days drove me bonkers and we both got zero work done. To be clear, it’s not Mom that was the problem, it’s the presence of the child. Maybe if you have a really big house and can’t hear a peep. Also we are private people and while I could learn to deal with a stranger in the house a big part of me feels entitled to my privacy at this point in my life. But I’d change that tune pretty quickly if I had to make ends meet. Ultimately, going to a coworking space was going to be as expensive as daycare and we went with the latter.

    6. Look at the recent class action settlement between au pairs and the au pair agencies. Au pair agencies have been recommending that families pay au pairs wages that fall below minimum wage in many places, citing bogus authority. In my state, there’s no exception to wage and hour laws for au pairs and the permitted offsets for room and board don’t come close to closing the gap. Yet, last I checked, au pair agencies were still recommending that families pay an illegally low wage to au pairs in my state.

      1. So, I’m a CA attorney with some experience in employment law and did review the complaint. We aren’t currently in Ca but the suit was filed in Ca and Ca poses some specific issues because the specific deduction for room and board is laid out in the labor code. The lawsuit was settled, and it was against the agencies, not the families…. it is something I’m slightly worried about, but not enough to not consider the program.

    7. Both my husband and I have “big jobs” that require some travel. I’m biglaw and I have a lot of night and weekend emergencies. Our au pair has been truly life changing for us. We have our kids enrolled in daycare, but we don’t have local family and she covers unexpected sick days, random weekend days, etc. She also does daycare drop off and pick up (amazing!!!), packs kids’ lunches, generally makes our lives easier. And we love having another family member. We don’t use her anywhere close to 45 hours/week, and we pay her extra and generally go out of our way to make sure that she’s happy. If we hadn’t hired her, guaranteed that I would have quit biglaw and take a ginormous pay cut. She is worth every penny.

  28. Congrats East Coaster!

    I had a very similar situation- dated my now-husband for 7 years and many, many times I wondered if he was every going to propose and many times considered breaking up due to that. It was also over a year between the discussion about engagement (him asking my parents, asking me about ring preferences) and him actually popping the question. However, once he did actually propose things moved along quite quickly- I wanted a small simple ceremony and we were engaged in December and married in February. I think the the key is whether he proceeds with picking a date and planning in an expeditious manner… a lot of foot-dragging on date picking would worry me. But he might be like my now hubby- nervous about getting engaged, but once he took the plunge to become engaged to me, he was all in, and was eager to get the wedding done.

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