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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Love this colorblocked cardigan from Karen Millen — and so does reader L. She writes in to note that this sweater is “soft and comfortable but looks like a modern and funky jacket. I've received lots of compliments around the office, and it looks good with pants or over a black sheath. I bought it full price, but it looks like its on sale now.” It is — but in limited sizes only. Small-sized girls, it's your lucky day. The sweater was $199, but is now marked to $125 at Karen Millen. Colorblocked Cardigan
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(L-2)
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
ANP
Can we get a thread going about office holiday gifts? I’m stumped as to what to do for my 7-person [male and female, range-of-ages] staff (and it doesn’t help that my budget is around $15/person).
TCFKAG
At $15 a head, I’d say (a) pound of coffee (b) giftcard to a coffee shop, (c) giftcard to a nearby lunch spot people like or (d) bottles of wine.
Gift for Boss?
It has never occurred to me to buy a holiday gift for a co-worker, let alone boss. A few people in my group want to buy a gift card for our boss (and spouse). I think it’s weird/inappropriate and will not be contributing. (I’m okay being odd woman out.) I’m curious what others think about holiday gifts for the boss.
ANP
I’ve been at my organization for a year and a half, and gifts within departments are the cultural norm. I would be equally fine not doing it.
Speaking as the boss, I am always touched when any of my reports give me a gift. However, I do not give my own boss a gift.
AnonInfinity
I would feel unspeakably awkward giving a gift to a boss.
Anon
The tradition at my workplace of giving a group gift to the boss (who makes 500k+/yr) from employees (who average 35k/yr) is very annoying.
Anon
btw, nothing is given in return. (except a group thank you email).
Herbie
My last year at my law firm, I got each of the partners I worked for an OMG S’mores kit (Stacy’s website is here – http://www.omg-smores.com – but this article is more informative – http://sidedish.dmagazine.com/2010/12/02/omg-smores-help-feed-the-hungry-one-jet-puffed-marshmallow-at-a-time-its-cooler-than-you-think ). Basically, it’s a s’mores making kit that costs $15. Proceeds from each kit provides 16 meals at North Texas Food Bank, one of our local nonprofits that feeds the hungry.
Not sure how this would go over with uptight middle-aged East Coast men, but the kits were a huge hit down here with my 35-year old to 55-year old male partners.
AnonInfinity
I’ll throw my hat in, too. I need to get a gift for my assistant in the $50 (I can do a little more if that’s what it takes) range. I’ve heard that most 1-2 years here give their assistants gifts rather than cash. I’m considering a gift card, but if I’m doing that, it almost seems like I should just do cash?
cfm
Im a fan of the cash plus flowers move.
Lyssa
My assistant mentioned to me the other day that she loves getting gift cards to the movies, because she and her husband don’t go very often because of the cost, but like to have an excuse. (I recall feeling the same way about restaurant gift cards while I was in law school.) So I was thinking I’d try to get her something for the movies and a nearby restaurant.
For me, when I get cash, it’s too easy to just put it into the general fund. Nice, but I don’t get anything specific out of it, whereas with gift cards, I can say to myself “now I can go out and get or do X that I’ve been interested in but couldn’t justify the cost of.”
EC MD
I think if you are going to do Gift Cards, and you are not sure specifically what the person likes (if you don’t get the great hint about movies, like Lyssa did) then I try to make it very general; I’m sensitive that as much as I’d like to give someone an indulgence, what they may need is underwear for their 4 year old. For that reason, a Costco gift card, if someone has a membership, is great, or Target, etc.
a nonny miss
There are also Visa giftcards that can be used like a debit card in case something like Costco isn’t an option.
kmm
I’m giving my assistant a Coach wristlet I picked up at the outlet and a $25 GC to her favorite jewelry store in town.
JessC
Oooh! I’ve got a question! Have any of you had an assistant who just started with you around the holidays? How did you handle it in regards to gift-giving?
My assistant up and quit on me last week. I’m told I’m getting a new person who will officially be assigned to my team by the end of the week. He’s been at the firm for about a month, mostly in training. He’s done a little bit of work for me, as part of his training, but I haven’t actually had any face-to-face, get-to-know-you interaction with him yet. Should I still get him a gift?
Circe
Yes. Always get a gift, but it can be small (token).
AnonInfinity
I would give something. I started at my firm, and my assistant’s birthday was 2 weeks later. I gave her some nice (but inexpensive) flowers, and that was a big hit. I’d rather “buy” a little goodwill at the beginning. I think he’ll appreciate the thought, even if you give him a $15 bottle of wine.
(Please excuse me for being all up in this thread)
Fiona
Can we also discuss how much money to spend on gifts for assistants/secretaries? I’ve seen discussion on Above the Law (and perhaps here) saying that you should spend $100 per year of your seniority, but as a fourth-year attorney, a $400 gift sounds like way too much (I’m in a small firm in Boston). What do you all think is normal/expected?
A
I think small firms are different than big firms (if only because the salary differential between support staff and attorneys tends to be lower – at my firm, starting attorneys make less than senior secretaries). At mine, $25-$50 is normal for associate assistant gifts and the standard is to give a gift or gift card, not cash.
cfm
That is the big firm norm. If you are making 160k a year as a first year, you better be giving your secretary $100. it should almost be like a bonus. I think 25-50 is an appropriate amount.
I work for the government so don’t have to worry about this, it is a relief!
Jensy
Question from biglaw first-year:
I will have been at my current firm for 5 months this year. Do I give my assistant $50 or $100? (FWIW, I am giving my secretary at my old firm a cash gift as well, not because I have to, but because she was so wonderful; my current secretary is kind of blah and lazy, and I don’t ask him to do much for me.)
Also, next year, do I have to give $200? And then $300?
cfm
In NY that increase is pretty typical, personally i’d do 100 for the first couple years. (not in big anymore) Some more info is down below, they think that secretarys hate giftcards to target etc. (“If you give us a giftcard, I hope that is how your next check comes”)
If I am giving cash I like to give something else to, even just a $4 pointsetta plant maybe. (If they dont have pets or are going to keep it in the office)
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/12/holiday-gifts-for-your-secretary-administrative-staff-open-thread/
MJ
I’m in a big firm in NY and I’ve never heard of anyone giving amounts over $100 or so.
S
In cash though? Or in a gift card? It feels weird as a first year associate (in biglaw) to give my assistant a $100 check. I get that it’s kinda a ‘bonus,’ but isn’t that what the firm is for? To give a cash bonus? At the same time, I would have no idea what to get her as a gift … but could definitely do a gift card.
I’m so glad someone asked about this, I’ve been wondering for days! I’m genuinely happy to give my assistant whatever I’m supposed to (and then some), I just don’t know what that is!!!
Herbie
I always felt weird giving cash or one of those Amex/Visa cards that can be used like a gift card… so I always gave a Target gift card. I rationalized that Target was nearby (work and where secretary/paralegal lived), and you can buy pretty much anything at Target these days (even groceries).
Circe
I always get the visa cash card too.
Diana Barry
Small firms are different and Boston is also different from NYC. I get my assistant a $50 gift card every year and she seems very pleased.
Herbie
I gave $50 Target gift cards to my secretary and paralegal for Christmas and their birthdays.
sadie
I agree that first-years should give $100. But I would like to know if there are other midlevels out there really giving $100 for every year of seniority. I’m a sixth year– do I need to give my assistant $600? Yes, I make good money, but believe it or not, $600 would be hard for my monthly budget.
puzzled recent law grad
I’m in-house at a large nonprofit, don’t have my own assistant, but others’ assistants will help me out from time to time (like answering my phone when I’m not at my desk or scheduling a meeting with the person they assist, others from outside the office, and me). Should I be buying gifts for everyone’s assistants?
anon
I would think no, unless one of them does you a lot of favors or you have enough disposable cash to do so.
puzzled recent law grad
Thank you, anon!
Homestar
It might be nice to bring a gift that the assistants could share–like some cupcakes that could be left with one assistant with an email to the group (“Happy Holidays! Thank you for all your work this year. Please stop by so-and-so’s desk to have some cupcakes.”) Obviously, choose an assistant that would not mind being the cupcake host.
Equity's Darling
Okay, so is the general feeling “no gifts for higher-ups’?
I’m Canadian, currently articling, and I think I have a fantastic principal who’s very involved with my training, which is rare at a national firm (where students don’t necessarily get to even work with their principals).
I was thinking of baking some delish ginger cookies for him, and his family, just to say thanks and Merry Christmas- I’m not sure if that counts as a gift? Or if it’s inappropriate?
Thoughts?
AnonInfinity
I would not do home made cookies. They have to be eaten relatively soon, and some people don’t like having so many sweets around at this time of year when there are treats everywhere.
I think a lot of people suggest a nice, handwritten card expressing your gratitude, and I think that would be most appropriate. If you really want to get a token something or other, my fall back is always an inexpensive bottle of wine.
anon
I don’t think you can make a hard and fast rule about “no gifts for bosses”. It just depends on your relationship with him/her, your office, and the gift.
In very hierarchical, perhaps conservative environments, or if the relationship with the boss is pretty forma, it may be inappropriate. If your boss is as much a mentor/friend/supporter as a supervisor, it may be fine.
However, I do think the one thing you need to be mindful of is the cost and extent of the gift. The one thing you want to avoid is to look like you’re currying favor with the boss or raising conflicts of interest.
In your situation, I think cookies is a nice gesture.
Diana Barry
No cookies!!! It is one of those NGDGTCO no-nos. It can cause the boss to see you as a “girl” and not a competent associate.
I think an invitation to lunch with the boss to say thank you for being such a great mentor, or a thoughtful handwritten notes, would be much better.
...
I love how people read NGDGTCO office and take away advice without the context. no cookies! no smiling! dont have long hair! if you have ever stepped into a kitchen you will never be seen as competent!
anon
seriously. equity’s darling, use your own best judgment.
cookies
for context, in NGDGTCO they say not to get into the habit of “feeding” your office/colleagues … e.g. regularly bringing in cupcakes or what have you and generally acting like a den mother.
whether or not you agree with that, a lot of people give food around the holidays – chocolate, sweets, whatever – so I think it’s a bit different.
Herbie
@… – I’m with you. I used to get annoyed by it, but now I just chuckle at what I call the NGDGTCO Hysterics.
Herbie
Oh, and btw… my former supervising partner (male, late 30s, married) made Chex party mix and peanut brittle with his wife and gave tins of it out at the office as Christmas gifts. Nobody thought he’s any less competent for it. If anything, when December rolled around, I’d practically be sitting in my office, rubbing my hands together, wondering when I’d get me some delicious snacks.
@ Equity’s Darling – make your cookies and don’t worry about it. 99.9% chance they’ll be appreciated.
Jas
Yes, I think NGDGTCO is advising against regularly feeding the office, not letting on that *gasp* you know how to cook! I plan to give a gift bag of cookies to my coworkers this Christmas, and last year my male coworker gave each of us a Christmas gift of homemade goat feta from his goats. It was a wonderful gift and no one suddenly doubted his competence.
Herbie
What is also equally hilarious and depressing about this ban on making food for co-workers is that the culinary industry seems so heavily male-dominated. Yet somehow, we non-chef ladies aren’t supposed to let on in our profesh lives that we can cook, are good at it, and actually enjoy it.
So, professional cooking is to be left to the men, yet casual cooking is for women (and their gendernormative duty in many families), so long as they keep it cloaked in a veil of secrecy at their non-culinary jobs.
Herbie
“Hey girl, I love it when you do gendernormative things like bake me cookies.”
b23
The only problem with this idea, in my experience, is that usually the men I’ve worked with brought tins of cookies for Christmas made by their wives. They would always say, “X made these cookies.” I don’t know, but for some reason doing the same just made me feel more equivalent to their wives than them, as lawyers. Instead, I brought in breakfast tacos (purchased) for everyone the last morning we were all going to be there. I felt like that was less girly and was also doing something nice. Plus, it was a big hit.
Anastasia
Herbie, your “hey girl” injection totally made my day. Thanks! (I’m going to gendernormatively bake cookies and go to a Christmas cookie exchange this weekend.)
Little Lurker
+50 LL points for Herbie; that was the best use of Hey Girl I’ll see all week.
(But El Gosling better never say it.)
Cee
I’m an attorney and I usually bake something for my coworkers who are not on my gift list (i.e., my assistant, paralegal). This includes attorneys who I work for, those I am friends with, and those who sometimes do work for me. This also includes our office’s managing partner, who I consider a friend. I also give the same thing to the secretaries in my hall who don’t work for me, but have to listen to me and occassionally help me out from time-to-time. I’ve brought various things, but for the last few years, I’ve made cinnamon rolls that I have frozen so that the person can enjoy them later if they so choose. They have been a huge hit with everyone.
I guess if I’m seen as a baker, so be it. I’m in my 12th year at my firm so everyone has figured out that I am competent. Cooking is also a hobby of mine and I have never been shy about it. I really hate the mindset that we need to shy away from these feminine things because they are weak. It’s sexist and self-loathing.
Nonny
ED – there is nothing wrong with giving your articling principal some cookies. Don’t worry about it.
MissJackson
Meh. I’m usually very NGDGTCO, but getting worked up over holiday cookies seems to be a bit much.
I’ve never given gifts to anyone other than my assistant in past years, but this year I’m giving everyone (EVERYONE from the head partner all the way on down to the paralegals) on my trial team homemade jam (that I made from fruit that I grew in my garden) with a note expressing that I’ve enjoyed working with them this past year. Collectively we put in a lot of long hours and worked very closely together, so I seriously doubt that they are going to think anything beyond the fact that my jam-making skillz are equal to my legal skillz.
Yes, that’s skillz.
mamabear
re: the cookies. I am careful about not feeding the masses (like when the boss’s secretary expects my male peers to contribute for pizza but me to cook a main course for the office potluck.)
But every year I attend a holiday “cookie bake” with a bunch of women in my industry. They are all my age (mid 40s) and are all relatively senior & well known in our industry. Our cookie bake is basically an excuse to drink champagne all day Saturday. Heck yes, I bring those cookies into the office. Everyone knows about the legendary cookie bake at this point, and the last thing my hips and I need is a box of cookies laying around my house.
Herbie
@mamabear, you’ve piqued my interest. I’ve never been to or organized a cookie bake, but the mention of drinking champagne all day Saturday convinces me that this is something I should–nay, must–do.
Logistically, how does this work? Is it at someone’s house? Do you actually bake your cookies together, or does everyone arrive with cookies to share?
mamabear
@Herbie,
We’ve been doing it for at least 10 years now. We do it at someone’s house, which tends to rotate a little, but only people with large-ish kitchens tend to volunteer to host. There are 8 to 10 of us most years, with a core group of 5 or so.
We have traditionally baked the cookies all together, but I suggested this year we each bring a couple of batches of prebaked cookies and maybe just make a few batches together. It has been quite messy in the past trying to organize whose cookies were in the oven, and the timing and so forth, especially given the level of alcohol consumption going on. :) Of course, that added to the hilarity of the day.
Anyway, once the cookies are all baked and cooled, we each fill up a couple of pretty boxes of assorted cookies to give away.
It is one of my favorite holiday traditions at this point, and I look forward to it all year.
AD
@mamabear – are you accepting applications for new members?….
Jen
I am in a weird position and also need some advice about gift-giving. I just started at my firm in November (lower level associate) and share a pool of three assistants with about 25 other people. I definitely don’t think it’s appropriate or should be expected that I spend $50-100 on each of the three assistants after having worked with them for a month or so, when none is assigned as my assistant and they service so many people. Any thoughts? I am hesistant to go the coffee or wine route when I do not know if any of them drink either.
TIA for your thoughts!
R in Boston
I’m in the same boat – sharing 2 assistants with a pool of 18 associates at a large Boston firm. Both assistants rock, but we haven’t yet figured out how to handle the gifting.
anon
I feel like the ideal scenario is for all 18 (or 25) to chip in $XX to a pool, and from that you buy one big gift for each assistant, whatever that’s a $200 spa certificate or a big giftcard or whatever.
Of course, that takes a lot of coordination …
S
Coordinate with the other people who use the assistants. That one I can at least opine on – my husband’s firm has pools, and they usually make the most junior associate collect money and buy the gift cards for all of the assistants. Ask around (perhaps ask a second year) to see if that’s what’s usually done, or you can perhaps offer to handle the collecting/gift giving.
Grant Writer Extraordinare!
I say candles. Something inexpensive and consumable.
mamabear
I like the idea of candles. Pottery Barn has some this year related to a charity – some percentage of the price is a contribution. I thought about getting those for people on my list.
A friend gave me a Williams Sonoma Kitchen candle last year and I loved that thing, even though I wasn’t previously a candle person. It has a unique scent that does not interfere with normal kitchen smells. It just smells clean.
jcb
One year I made homemade marshmallows (really easy and oddly satisfying to carve them up) and gave those with fancy hot chocolate mix. Easy, not too expensive, people seemed to like it.
yesh
I’m sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know of a good web-based timekeeping app, that lets you easily switch between client numbers?
Solo
How complicated are you looking for? I use Clio for my case management, but it’s not free. http://www.goclio.com.
Bianca
more colorblocking :(
Anon13
I found my husband out raking leaves in a blue fleece vest over a bright green shirt, with an orange winter hat on. Colorblocking! :b
Monday
My mom wanted to go to Thanksgiving dinner in a bright red top and a bright orange jacket. I’m not a fan of the look either. Call me safe/dated, but I encouraged her to switch to a brown tweed jacket. She did, and looked fab.
Midwest
I can’t get into colorblocking, either. It’s too ’80s revival for my liking.
Anon13
Yes! I’m so glad Ann Taylor pulled its cobalt-and-black display and replaced it with winter whites. I was having 80s flashbacks every time I walked through the mall.
Bianca
Midwest, I couldn’t have said it better.
AnonInfinity
I love colorblocking! Am I alone?
Anonymous
I love it, too.
In fact, as I did not grow up in the United States, I had no idea it was a “throwback” to any other time period. That said, I love how it looks, and it also makes me feel quite fierce. :)
Alanna of Trebond
Love colorblocking! Also, am 24, so didn’t really participate in whatever the trend was the first time around.
b23
I really like this sweater, although I don’t like all colorblocking. This seems less 80s to me than just big blocks, for some reason.
Jas
I love it. Maybe I’m a little young to have been saturated with it during the 80’s?
Anonymous
I love it too– what’s not to love? Clean, adult, cheerful but spare, and often very flattering. It’s a non-pattern pattern, which is my ideal. You can highlight it, play it down, or create it now with separates, then move along later…
If it’s the memory-association for folks who’ve worn it before, that’s a prob I hope we all have tons of for years and years… what goes around comes around again and again, and ever shall…
PittsburghAnon
Nope, I love it too. My standard outfit is solid colors only, 2 neutrals + a color or 2 colors + a neutral. Been doing this for years and will probably keep doing it after it’s out of style again.
Lola
I’m not sure that counts as color blocking, PittsburghAnon.
I think of color blocking more as multiple solid color panels in one garment.
2 neutrals + 1 color or 2 colors + 1 neutral is just good, timeless fashion. :)
PittsburghAnon
Ah, ok. I see outfits like green skirt + blue shirt + black sweater referred to as “colorblocking” here and elsewhere sometimes.
*is clueless*
Anonymous
Color blocking is fields of color juxtaposed. Thus, a teal skirt with an aqua shell is color blocking; a tangerine skirt with a flamingo top is color blocking. As is a black shift with red princess side panels.
Niktaw
Can anyone comment on Karen Millen fit? Are the clothes TTS, curve-friendly?
MJ
Karen Millen is a high-fashion UK brand. I find they run quite small, akin to Zara or Mango or Reiss. If in doubt, size up and you won’t be disappointed.
Selia
Funny, I like it as a sweater – I think it is interesting, but I would not like it as a suit type jacket. Not sure why…
Aunt Pennybags
Any suggestions on the best way to gift money to young children for future (e.g. college) use?
My nephews and niece ( all under 7) don’t need any more toys (although I am looking at getting them a flying remote controlled shark…). So I’d like to start getting them smaller gifts + money for post-high school/college.
I really don’t just want to write them checks that will end up in the main family account, and given family dynamics, setting up their own accounts wouldn’t be feasible.
Do people still give savings bonds? Any fellow ‘rettes do something similar?
Thanks!
anon
Can’t you look at setting up a 529 plan for them? I know grandparents can do that. Not sure about aunts/uncles.
Of course, there are a lot of considerations – financial, tax, legal – but still worth looking into. You’ll want to discuss with your in-laws, of course, since 529’s impact the student’s financial aid eligibility and have a lot of restrictions on use if they don’t actually go to college.
You could also encourage your in-laws to set up 529’s themselves for their own children, and then you could just contribute directly to them each year (assuming they take 3rd party contribs – I think most do).
My parents set one up for my niece and nephew. Made things a lot easier.
Anonymous
My in laws have given our children US Savings Bonds. We keep them in our safe deposit box and will give them to the children when they are grown.
I bought my husband’s wedding ring with a U.S. Savings Bond my grandparents gave me when I was born …. it was for $100, I think, but the interest had compounded so much that I cashed it for $400+.
We also have 529s for our children and happily accept checks for those — they have to be payable to the account. Do your nieces/nephews have those?
JessC
I think savings bonds are a great idea. My late grandmother got me one every Christmas for about 10 years. Though I will admit that when I was younger, I was less than thrilled about it (I wanted money I could spend right then!). But now that I’m older, I can totally see the value in them. My oldest one is still a few years away from reaching it’s maximum value, but I know I’ll be quietly thanking Grandma Sarah for getting them for me when I do cash them in.
One thing to note – I was going to get a bond as a gift for my friend’s son’s christening and when I got to the bank they told me I needed the SS number of the child or one of the child’s parents. So make sure you have that info before you go (I’d never bought a bond before and didn’t know that).
Legal Marketer
We also buy them for nieces and nephews. A workaround the SS number issue is if you put yourself on it as co-owner (or co-bondholder or whatever) instead of one of the child’s parents.
We also have them sent to our house, and give hte kids a card with a note indicating we bought them one. This assures us it will be kept safe until either the bond or the child matures.
Another option is to buy them stock. We use oneshare.com and buy a share in a relevant company (B&N for the little bookworm, Harley-Davidson for the nephew who loves anything motorized, etc.) and they think it’s so fun when they get a $0.08 dividend check in the mail every now and then!
Kelly
I graduated college in 2007, but my great aunts bought various savings bonds throughout my childhood. They covered at least 2 whole years of tuition plus book and a little spending money at state school. I had a let a lot of them mature past their date, and my parents did not give them to me until college, and they would give me a few every semester to cover those costs.
You’re an awesome aunt for doing this! The last of my great aunt’s passed away when I was in high school, so they got to see the fruits of their saving/gifts.
Ellie
My grandfather constantly added to stocks for me and my siblings’ college purposes. He went with pretty steady investments (energy holdings, big fast food companies).
It worked well for me– I graduated from a moderately priced school with thousands left over.
My brother was in school during the stock market troubles, so my parents had to help him out a little bit more.
I believe he had the accounts made out to each of us and our parents, so they were our guardians for the money until we were of age to control it. I still have lots of money earning dividends– will be awesome when I graduate school and need to repay loans or need a down payment.
Obviously a risky strategy if you’re targeting for a certain time of cashing in (eg college), but it worked out really well for me.
zelda
we have an airswimmer in my office. it is weirdly super fun! get it!
a lawyer
You can open up a bank account with your name and theirs as a Uniform Gift to Minors account. Taxable to them, which of course means no tax unless you are talking really big money.
Be sure the bank you deal with knows HOW to set one up. I opened one years ago for my nephew, then age 3, and my niece. They got the niece correctly but not my nephew, who was able to access it before he turned 18. The bank, however, did replace the money (as my nephew was also required to do, so he is now ahead).
Anon
Reposting from yesterday, hoping for more advice…Hi ‘Rettes! I BADLY need a few new jackets for work. A great saleswoman recently “diagnosed” my ideal jacket as short (hip length) with a nipped-in waist. Anyone have suggestions?
Anon
I’m in tge smaller side (5’4, 125 lbs) and very hourglassy. Thanks so much!
fly a way
OP, yesterday, I thought about White House/Black Market…I’m very hourglassy (10) though. Hope you got that post. Also the Kate fit at Talbots.
Anon
Thanks for writing back both days :) I was hoping for a couple more replies, but I’m really grateful to you.
SunnyD
Thanks for the posting yesterday about Tilley hats. One of these beauties (joke) is the perfect Christmas gift for my dad! One more person off of my “WTF am I going to buy you” list.
DCJ
Question for you wise ladies: we received a holiday card in our Sunday newspaper from our paper carrier. Inside was a self-addressed envelope, presumably for us to send the carrier his holiday tip. How much would you guys send? We only take the paper on Sundays. I was thinking a check for $25? Is that appropriate for one-day-a-week delivery? Thanks in advance! :)
Lalala
A tip envelope? Is it just me, or is that presumptuous on his part (and maybe a bit offensive)?
I don’t have a paper delivered so I just may not get it. But I might just throw the envelope away…
cfm
It is standard. It is like having a tip line on your check at a restaurant. If he doesn’t have the envelope you don’t know where to send it. You can always throw it away if you don’t want to tip, but you should be tipping your mail carrier for the holiday.
Lalala
Thanks :)
Another thing I miss out on by living in the Boonies.
So
That’s a only a little less than I give as a holiday tip for daily delivery, so it seems high for once per week service — but then again I’m a grad student on a pretty limited budget and am probably not tipping enough (ugh, never thought about it that way and now I’m feeling guilty). My newspaper includes a line for carrier tip on the bills they send, though, so I’ve never given the tip directly to the carrier through a personal check – your mileage may vary.
Sonya
My husband is a carrier. He receives anywhere from $5-$75 for holiday tips, maybe more if the customer doesn’t tip at all the rest of the year. For Sunday only delivery, $25 sounds about right. I’m sure your carrier will appreciate any amount. :)
DCJ
Thanks, Sonya! I appreciate it. As for whether the envelope is presumptuous or not . . . -shrug- My parents tend to get one in their paper as well in another part of the Washington Post’s delivery area (different state), so maybe it’s just normal practice for WaPo carriers?
BAB
I get the card in my WSJ, too. In the DC area.
anon
have always gotten the envelope with the SF Chronicle.
i used to tip when i paid online, and then tip maybe $15 via the envelope. one year we had really great service (we do a lot of paper holds when leaving town). that carrier got a $25 Target gift card from me; she sent a thank-you note saying she’d used it to buy thermal undies.
mail carrier also goes above and beyond for us; he also gets $25.
Jr. Prof
My NYT carrier does it as well, in the Bay Area. I’ve usually tipped $25 for Sunday only delivery (but then again, I was a super-broke grad student for a long time, so I’m curious if a bigger tip is warranted.)
S
Along these lines, who are you supposed to give holiday tips to, and what amount is appropriate? I’m new to the “big girl” world — I know I’m supposed to tip the mail carrier, but that’s about all I know. Bi-weekly housekeeper? Dog sitters? Peapod delivery man? The potential list is endless, but I definitely want to be sure I’m tipping appropriately!!
I almost never post (just lurk!), but I’m all over the comments today with the holiday questions, sheesh. I clearly don’t know what to do with myself, and would appreciate any advice/thoughts! :)
sadie
Tip your biweekly housekeeper. We usually give ours the cost of a housecleaning, rounded up to the nearest $100. If you have an ongoing relationship with your dogsitters (e.g., they come every week or something, or you use them once a month when you travel on weekends), definitely tip.
Basically, if you have a consistent relationship with a service provider, you give them a holiday “tip” or bonus, whatever you want to call it. For the Peapod delivery guy, if you have the same one every time, definitely tip. If it’s just whoever happens to be on duty, no need to tip.
anon
The potential list is indeed endless and could include:
– housekeepers
– nannies/babysitters
– doormen/women
– delivery men/women and mail carriers
– building superintendent / repairmen
– manicurist, hair stylist, dog walker
etc. In short, anyone who does service for you on a regular basis.
I would basically approach it this way:
– for how long/how often/to what extent do you use the service?
– are you happy with the service?
– do you have an actual relationship with this person, i.e. they are your “regular” XYZ?
When I lived in the city I tipped my doormen, mail carrier, and superintendent. I relied on them, we had friendly relationships, and they made my life easier. My hairstylist overcharges as it is, I didn’t have a dog or children, I didn’t have a regular manicurist and I never used a housekeeper.
As for amounts, I’ve seen anywhere from $5-$10 to $50. I gave $100 to our head doorman with the understanding that he would split it amongst his staff as appropriate. I think my super got $50, as I he was always great with repairs. Mailman got $20.
S
Thank you so much for the responses! I really appreciate the advice.
KW
I thought it was illegal (is that the right word?) for mail carriers to accept tips. I put one in our mailbox for ours a few years ago and he didn’t take it. It was after that I think I remember reading they are not allowed to accept tips. Am I wrong?
Jr. Prof
I was under the same impression… I’ve never tipped the USPS mail carrier, only the newspaper carrier. Do people tip their mail carriers???
Circe
I think they can accept gifts under $25, so I just get a starbucks giftcard.
AD
In New England, so our mail carrier gets a Dunkin’ Donuts card.
Tired Squared
I thought it was illegal for them to accept cash… so I always give chocolate/cookies or something when I see them around Christmas.
Legal Marketer
Yes, I always wonder about tipping the Peapod man. Not just at the holidays, but there is a tip line on the signature slip for every delivery. Do you do a percentage of your order or a fixed amount? I never know what is appropriate for that one.
Anonymous
Peapod says you don’t have to, and I don’t. I want the whole thing over with as quickly as possible, as impersonally and as professionally as possible.
Fab Kaari
And we wonder why our society is so cold and impersonal these days. Glad the 1% thinks so little of the Peapod delivery guy. Have a heart!
S
I always give $5, regardless of cost. Not sure why — I think it’s that it doesn’t make sense to me to give a percentage, but at the same time, they’re always sweating after they lug in my groceries so I feel like I should give them something … and they usually tell me I have pretty dogs. Now that I think about it, I think I’m a sucker for anyone who compliments my dogs. :)
Baby weight
We tip the amount of one month’s subscription.
Anon
Since the Sunday paper is about $75 for the year, I think $25 is too much to tip.
Anonymous
I am looking for a new winter coat that will not make me feel boring and shapeless. I am looking for one that is well-worrn with suits, etc.; my current one is a J Crew Lady Day coat in black, so something along those lines in formality. I may want to get a non-black color.
I am small but have a relatively large chest so I really want a well-tailored and waist-defining coat. A built-in belt would be okay, even preferable.
Thanks so much, ladies.
Me too
I think the Jcrew metro coat is fabulous and it comes in all sorts of beautiful colors like royal blue and emerald green. I have not seen it in person (I think it’s an online only buy) but I would definitely buy it if I was in need of yet another wool coat.
Here’s how it looks on Angie over at YouLookFab:
http://youlookfab.com/2011/11/16/a-happy-red-coat-and-a-sad-blue-dress/
Backgrounder
I have the JCrew Metro coat in eggplant and it’s gorge (wore it today in Chicago). Only complaint, and this came up in an earlier thread, is that all of the pockets are sewn shut. I checked and they are not the variety that can just be snipped open as other posters suggested. It’s a minor inconvenience as I like to stash things in my pockets. Overall, though, great coat that comes in a multitude of fun colors!
Herbie
Yeah, I actually ordered the Metro coat in Salt this year and returned it because it doesn’t have pockets that actually function. That’s a deal breaker for me. The lady day coat does have pockets, however, and I think I’m going to pull the trigger on that one.
Me too
I love the Salt color but am worried it would get dirty too easily, especially in the Boston slush/snow. Gorgeous coat though.
Herbie
@ Me Too – it does show dirt very easily… it is such a beautiful coat, though… I vowed to simply try harder this year to not dirty it up. It’s worth the effort. (Of course, I’m not dealing with slush on a regular basis.)
Anonymous
Original poster here.
I love my Lady Day coat. I wear it a lot each winter and it has held up very well, although the inside lining may need mendign now and then.
Oh, and the pockets are not bulgy and fit smoothly with the line of the coat. :)
anon in SF
I ordered the Jcrew Metro coat in emerald green on the 25% off thanksgiving weekend sale. It’s supposed to arrive today and I *cannot wait*! I’m literally checking the tracking info every 15 minutes.
Herbie
Get one of the J. Crew coats (lady day coat or metro) in Salt. I had one a few years ago (before staining it beyond repair) and got SO. MANY. compliments on it every time I wore it. Looks great with suits, also good just with jeans. I’ve been pondering a new one for this year.
Kelly
After getting feeback last week, I’m probably going to order the stadium cloth trench (which has a waist belt) but only basic colors.
I had to order one more thing from kohls for free shipping this weekend, so i’m giving this coat a shot http://www.kohls.com/kohlsStore/womens/coats/view_allcoats/PRD~814215/Apt+9+Hooded+Solid+Coat.jsp .
i’m small with a large chest (size 2/4; 34 D). I’m in a different predicament that you, whereas I have an awesome royal blue peacoat, but need a basic color.
Since you want a fun color I would check out tjmaxx/marshalls/loemanns. I got my calvin klein blue peacoat there for $50, but I was also contemplating a plum french connection coat that was there too.
kng
I was looking for a big girl coat last winter for wearing over suits and found a great knee-length trench style belted wool coat in a dark eggplant by miss sixty. it has held up very well and has some fun modern detailing on it without being too girly – zippered pockets, shoulder epaulets, and a double layer of wool at the hem in a flouncy way but without any ruffle. I can’t seem to find it online at the moment, but it is an excellent coat and gets compliments constantly. Macys sells a lot of miss sixty coats and many are comparable styles (though watch the quality, I once bought a miss sixty winter coat at macys that I had to return because the lining ripped in 3 spots within a week of wearing).
kng
in black: http://www.bluefly.com/miss-sixty-black-wool-belted-tiered-hem-coat/PRODUCT_FEED/307302901/detail.fly?partner=Gate_CSE_Froogle_Miss%2BSixty_Outerwear&referer=ca_froogle&cm_mmc=ca_froogle-_-Miss%2BSixty-_-womens_outerwear-_-307302901
Jas
I have recently come to love Spiewak coats. They make uniform coats (e.g. the NY police department uses them, I believe) so they are fairly practical, but they also have a fashion line that is reasonably priced and has great styling. Their Cadet Coat is an updated version of of one I have and constantly get complimented on http://needsupply.com/womens/brands/spiewak/cadet-coat.html
and their Barden coat (at the same website) is gorgeous too, and looks like it’s available in moss green.
I wouldn’t advise their down jackets, though. I have one and while it looks great, it sheds feathers more than I think it should.
Jas
The Barden coat http://needsupply.com/womens/brands/spiewak/barden-coat.html
a.
oh wowww, I love the Cadet Coat! (Although I wouldn’t say no to the other one.) But that ribbed collar, ohmygod. Wish I could think of any possible justification for asking for it for Christmas, but sadly, I already have two long coats and a pea coat. Sigh.
mamabear
This is a gorgeous coat – I’ve seen it in person, and it has a very ladylike cut
http://www.talbots.com/online/browse/product_details.jsp?id=prdi27831&rootCategory=cat70008&catId=cat810041&sortKey=Default§ion=Regular&conceptIdUnderSale=cat70008
Herbie
Not sure if this fits the bill, but I. LOVE. IT.
http://www.mackage.com/shop/index.php?menuby=fab&langue=en&devise=USD&genre=F&coll=FW11&cat=wool&dets=CASSIDY&detsc=63&pg=0
Ugh
Coats are my Achilles Heel.
Some ladies buy shoes. I have a few shoes, but it’s the coat aisle at the store that I need to stay away from.
This thread has me drooling.
Amy H.
I am the same way . . . coats over bags or shoes. And I was just thinking that exact though on my walk to work this morning, before I opened this thread. I’ve now added two more to my wish list (Metro in Eggplant and Talbots’ Plush Balmacaan in Lapis), which is ridiculous, because I have plenty of coats . . . .
anon
A question for you, ladies – this past year, I married my Jewish husband. We have agreed to have a Jewish home, and I’m very happy with that choice. This is our first holiday season as a married couple. I grew up celebrating Christmas in a secular way, with a tree and stockings but nothing to do with Christianity. Due to a long history of family holiday drama, I wasn’t attached to the holiday, and am glad to have switched to team Hanukkah. However, I guess since this year is my first winter as a Jewish home, I’m finding myself really frustrated by how everyone is so focused on Christmas. Our office building has giant Christmas trees in the lobby. I was in another office building this week for a depo, and again, giant Christmas trees. The FedEx guy and the grocery clerk say “Merry Christmas” to me when I check out. Signs say “Happy Holidays” in red and green and gold, which we all know means Christmas, as opposed to the blue, white, and silver of Hanukkah. The trees are beautiful, the clerks are just being nice, and the well-wishing is well-meaning, but I guess I never noticed how pervasive Christmas is, and how absent any other holiday is. How ignorant of me. It makes me feel really isolated and rejected, like I and my Hannukah holiday don’t matter and/or don’t exist. So, I guess my question is, for you non-Christmas celebrators, does this focus on Christmas bother you? I am not saying I want the trees removed. They are lovely, and I don’t have a problem with them being there. I am not “against” Christmas. But where are the menorahs?? Why does the whole public sphere only celebrate Christmas?
MM
I converted to Islam from Christianity a few years ago, and I find Christmas season to be terribly difficult. Like you, I appreciate the decorations and the holiday cheer and the carols on the radio, but I also find it all very isolating. I think that I would enjoy it more if it didn’t make me sad. In short, I think that, like you, I find it difficult and frustrating to see how much “support” people who celebrate Christmas get, and how much community and revelry attaches to it. It’s hard not to get jealous when I compare the weeks that my firm shuts down for the Christmas holiday to the push-back I got when I requested a half-day off to attend Eid prayers a few months ago. Or when I compare the decorations and carols and holiday spirit to the lack of commemoration of my holiday, where I have to try hard to create a celebratory space with my family so everything isn’t too mundane and secular. Again, I understand why this is the case, and I don’t begrudge Christmas, I just wish I had something similar!
My husband and I are working hard to cultivate a group of local friends/family to celebrate our holidays with and to create exciting traditions of our own that will make the Eids special. For now, I try to focus on how nice it is to have a holiday that is still primarily religious rather than overrun with commercialism the way Christmas is! That is truly refreshing.
1L
‘It’s hard not to get jealous when I compare the weeks that my firm shuts down for the Christmas holiday to the push-back I got when I requested a half-day off to attend Eid prayers a few months ago.”
This, this, this.
EC MD
As someone who converted to judiasm when I married, I have had a similar awakening. I too, accept the sentiments with which they are meant, and also feel a stark awareness of the overwhelming feeling of Christmas.
I’ve had to go one step further this year. Our son is now in preschool, and we’ve moved to a small town. We love the school, and it’s come to our attention that they do a lot of Christmas related activities in December. It presents a new challenge to us, as our son is the only Jewish kid in class, and they haven’t had many Jewish kids at all. So our solution is to offer to help plan and carry out a Hannukah lesson for the kids. I want my son to be proud of his traditions, I want other kids to be aware of the diversity of backgrounds people come from. I’m feeling a little stressed (here I am, recently converted, looking up pre-school hannukah activities on the internet) but also excited.
EC MD
Oh, one more thing. We’re also planning a party with latkes for our friends and small children for hannukah — we will be the only Jews, but we have nice friends who like a good family party, and it makes me feel happy, to fill our home with love and light from others. So building a community to celebrate with, even if they don’t have the same traditions, also makes me feel less isolated.
So
The party sounds like a great idea! In addition to latkes, you could also serve sufganiyot (jelly doughnuts) to really drive home the fact that Chanukah can rock. They were always the traditional holiday food that got me and my hebrew school friends super excited for this time of year.
Anon
I’m Jewish and I alternate years between being so annoyed with how pervasive Christmas is and how insensitive people are about assuming that EVERYONE celebrates Christmas and simply embracing the festive spirit. Now that I’m not in law school, I’m less of a “grinch.” The combination of exams right up until the holidays and Christmas being so pervasive always got me in a bad mood.
I also don’t particularly like the Hannukah “inclusion” as a solution. First, Hannukah can often be completely over by the time Christmas rolls around, and second, its a pretty small holiday in comparison to some others (Passover, Rosh Hashannah) and so it feels weird to make a huge deal about it.
EC MD
I totally agree with you about the whole Hannukah isn’t the biggest holiday in the Jewish calendar — and struggle with this as well. We try and impress on our son what the important holidays, but it’s essentially unavoidable to make Hannukah the Christmas alternative. If only the Christian calendar had it’s big holiday in the fall… :)
Coach Laura
ECMD (waiving “hi” from Seattle)
This brings back good memories. I love all things Jewish and would convert if I had time learning a new language and culture.
Our closest neighbors from when my kids were pre-school age are Jewish and the mom is an MD like you who had converted (born Catholic). We had the best time learning about being Jewish. Their family has the same idea that you have about filling a home with love and light.
Every year, my kids and I would make Hanukkah cookies and decorate them and they would make us fudge in return. We were invited to “break the fast” dinners at Yom Kippur and besides attending bar/bat mitzvahs, my kids also experienced “sitting Shiva” after the death of a beloved grandparent. My kids are in college now but these good memories persist.
As for my opinion, I think that anyone who grows up in the majority (here in the US it historically would be white, Christian and not “differently-abled”) may have a moment when they become “other” and it can be disorienting, just as someone who was sighted and became blind or an American who moves to Paris or Morocco. Having these challenges adds character and gives one the experience of another’s reality, which can be an eye-opening experience.
Jas
Your solution for his preschool is a great idea. My elementary school did something similar and allowed parents to come in and share their holidays with kids. There was always Christmas celebrations, but my mother also helped a Jewish mother do Hannukah every year, and I remember an Imbolc celebration put on by two Wiccan parents and a couple other celebrations too. It was awesome, and it’s too bad more schools and parents don’t do something similar.
mamabear
Hey EC MD,
I love your preschool idea. My kids attend Berkeley public schools and, while the school doesn’t recognize Christmas at all, they do invite kids from other religions to share their “holiday” traditions. Both of my kids really look forward to Leah’s mom coming in and making latkes for the class. I mean, really, to the point where they asked if we could become Jewish! (We are basically nothing, I’m atheist, my husband is a very secular Christian.)
My kids, when they were littler, used to say, “Oh, Seth, he’s Hannukah. Natalie is Santa Claus,” as their shorthand for describing what their friends celebrated.
b23
Does anyone else see a problem with allowing non-Christians but not Christians to share their traditions?
44
I don’t see how Christians are being not-allowed to share their traditions to a greater extent than are non-Christians. Would you care to give an example of this sort of discrimination?
b23
It sounded from her comment that Christians aren’t allowed to share anything at her kids’ schools. “They do invite kids from other religions to share their ‘holiday’ traditions.”
Gourmet Chef
Almost everyone in America knows what Christmas is, but how many Christians know what Yom Kippur is? I see no problem with allowing minorities to educate the majority.
TCFKAG
I think (though who knows) that the school doesn’t do anything formal to recognize Christmas, but that each kid can bring in something from their own holiday celebration, including the Christians. At least, that’s what I hope. Otherwise, yes, I’d probably see a problem with that.
mamabear
No, you’re right, and I was being a little snide when I wrote that. Berkeley is so overly politically correct that we can’t mention Christmas, but we can mention everyone else’s holidays in the spirit of multiculturalism and diversity and inclusiveness. (these are major keywords in Berkeley.)
However, I agree that Christmas hits you over the head everywhere else, so it probably all works out in the end. Don’t worry, everyone knows it’s Christmas. :)
Daenerys
I feel like several parents did activities like this when I was in preschool, as I have vague memories of making menorahs and kinaras while we learned about all the different holidays this time of the year. My favorite activity by far (which you may be able to use for your son’s preschool) was making dreidels out of clay and then learning how to play the dreidel game. I think we used candy which of course increased the excitement over it.
So
I get what you are feeling and had similar thoughts when I was a kid, but I think I just got used to the fact that the majority of people in the US celebrate Christmas, and I shouldn’t feel threatened by that — especially since I had plenty of friends growing up who would involve me in some of the festivities (Hanging ornaments! Baking cookies!).
Also, it helped to learn that Chanukah really isn’t a big holiday in the Jewish faith at all; it’s only become the gift-exchanging blue-and-white winter celebration that it is now because American Jewish kids were feeling completely left out during the December holiday season, and the powers-that-be didn’t want to turn them off of Judaism during their formative years. So, with that in mind I’ve found it easier to be really ok with the Christmas-centric environment this time of year (and, secretly, I’ve come to adore Christmas – but don’t tell anyone!).
Since this is your first year doing something different, it makes total sense that you’d be especially sensitive to the disparity, but it should get easier as time goes by.
cfm
I’m jewish, and this is a bit silly. About 2% of the United States is jewish. About 77% is Christian. I see many menorahs, but obviously not as many as Christmas. But it is like being from New York and going into Boston and saying wow they really celebrate the Red Sox here. Why aren’t there Yankee flags anywhere?
People who celebrate Christmas put up christmas decorations and say merry christmas. There has been a conscious effort to include other holidays, but its just a fact of life- if less people celebrate it, you see less decorations. People who celebrate Christmas don’t have to and shouldn’t put up menorahs. Now people who are supposed to be neutral, for instances corporations, government, etc, those should be inclusive.
a
Well said, cfm. I’m Muslim and I don’t see anything untoward or insensitive in celebrations of Christmas – if anything, I actually enjoy the Christmas music that to me signals the toasty sort of fun of the winter season.
This might sound jerky, but I think it’s petty to resent expressions of Christmas cheer. They’re well intentioned, after all.
Lyssa
I feel the same way come college football season.
Seriously, though, the reason that you’re seeing Christmas stuff but not menorahs is because the vast majority of the people celebrate Christmas, and only a very small percentage of the population celebrates Hanukkah. That’s just the way it is (IIRC, Jews only make up about 2-3% of the US population, and many or most Jews celebrate Christmas a bit, too, as do most non-Christians and non-affiliated people).
If you want to put up a menorah, you should do that, and I’m sure people will find it pretty, too, but the vast majority will still prefer Christmas trees. Would you really want a non-Jewish, non-Hanakkah celebrating proprietor to put up Hanakkah decorations? That would seem false to me.
Zen
I’m Buddhist by birth, and as far as I know, we have no “special” days. This means that I’m able to fully celebrate whatever holiday my immediate community celebrates, be it Christmas/Easter for most of the US, Yom Kippur in New York, or Ramadan in Indonesia. It’s cool.
Cajunqueen
I am a not-particularly-religious Christian and I agree that it would be nice to see a more inclusive array of holiday decorations. One thing that might help the frustration with the Christmas monopoly on holiday cheer is that what is being celebrated with red and green lights on evergreen trees is not the religious aspect of the holiday but the fact that this is a time of giving and pretty glowing lights, great food and wonderful music. This is something that applies to all the traditions that are celebrated at this time. My understanding is that many Christmas traditions have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus and are pagan in origin. And there are those Christians who are irritated at all the “pagan” whoop-de-doo and think the focus should be on the birth of Jesus. Kind of like St. Patrick’s Day in Ireland, which is celebrated as a religious holiday rather than a “Kiss Me – I’m Irish” party day. Anyway, I love white and silver and blue – you should see my front yard. We have white lights on bushes and blue lights on a small weeping cherry tree that, when you see it from the driveway, looks like a chicken.
MsZ
Your last sentence is perfection.
Lyssa
It seems to me that you could easily say that we celebrate a holiday, centered around the ideas of giving, peace, love, joy, beauty, etc., that is based on the birthday of a man who inspired a lot of people to live their lives with those things in mind. I realize that you can have some debates about whether Jesus actually existed, but it seems like there’s enough historical record to say that He probably did (at least, as probably as anyone else of that time did), and that seems like enough of a reason to celebrate.
You’d probably tick some Christians off with that attitude, since it implies that the divinity part is unimportant, but I think that Christmas as a non-religious holiday but still based on the same ideals and even the same person (J.C.) makes for something really nice. (I get why that might not work for the OP, since she has some bad associations with the holiday, but for non-Christians in general, I mean.)
anon
I don’t think this works for people who are faithful to a different faith.
Jewish anon
Nope, not at all. Sorry. It’s not about personal negative emotional associations and moving past those to share in a wonderful joyous time of happiness and unity (or whatever, sorry to snark a bit). It’s that it has no meaning, and we don’t need or want it to have any meaning. The OP was I think just expressing a desire to see other holidays represented alongside this one which has real, significant meaning to, yes, a majority of the population.
Jew
As a member of a religion that has been tyrannized by Christianity for thousands of years, I don’t really think of Christmas as a time for all to celebrate. If I want to celebrate, I’ll do so on my own terms (ex: no lift lines and great snow on Christmas day!) but they have NOTHING TO DO WITH JESUS and it’s actually offensive to assume otherwise.
Lyssa
Did using the word “J_sus” seriously just get me moderated? Yikes!
Longtime Jew
When I was a kid, it bothered me. I grew up in a mostly Christian town, and really struggled to feel “equal” during the holidays. My parents made Hanukkah fun for us, but I always felt really left out. It’s gotten better a bit as I’ve gotten older (you make your own fun and all) but I still feel really left out at times. What I do is I try to surround myself with fellow agnostic Jews so we can do Jewish things like eat Chinese food and make jokes about our parents. I do find myself going to temple during the season as well, just because it’s nice to be with other Jews, even though I’m not religious. Also, I try to remind myself that Passover is coming (in my opinion the greatest and best holiday of all time, and I’d rather celebrate that than Christmas any day)!
Welcome to the tribe! Let’s listen to some Debbie Friedman and talk about Jewish feminism.
Sarabeth
I grew up Jewish and traditional (and I remain that way today). I don’t mind Christmas decorations, and I tend to think of the non-Christian decorations (generally menorahs) as “token” displays, and also a commercialization of non-commercial holidays. I don’t think I even mind when people wish me a merry Christmas, although I don’t know that it happens that often (I now live in NYC).
The public sphere celebrates Christmas because (1) most Americans are Christian, (2) many people in the majority presume that others are as well unless they are visibly not, (3) Christmas probably sells better than Chanukah, Kwanzaa, and/or whatever other holidays may occur at this time of year in a given year, and (4) there is a vocal Christian contingency that demands that Christmas be exclusively and distinctly noted (see, e.g., http://action.afa.net/item.aspx?id=2147486887).
Jewish anon
I definitely understand how you feel, and I’ve basically come to terms with it and it doesn’t bother me much anymore (I sort of just compartmentalize – in the outside world I am a neutral observer to all this Christmas hubbub, in my home and with my family and community we have a focus on our own holidays and celebrations, sort of a sphere where ‘outside world’ holidays don’t exist except for anthropological/sociological study purposes). But I don’t think your feelings are silly and should be dismissed. I guess basically all I can say is welcome to the club :) Yes, Christmas etc is extremely pervasive, and it can be alienating and isolating to not be represented within all this. Places with larger Jewish populations will do things like have a Chanukiah, or a lighting ceremony, next to their trees. Other places won’t. And yes, it is hard. I imagine even more so when it is a sudden shock rather than something you gradually get used to and go through as a child (awesome not having anything on TV except Christmas specials which your family doesn’t watch, when you’re little!).
The same goes, IMO, for other minority religious/cultural holidays and so on, so I don’t think you’re being unreasonable or demanding special Chanukah treatment. Our societies are multicultural, and should be represented as such. This unfortunately just doesn’t really happen. I like ECMD’s solution – it may work for you in your office environment as well.
In my case, my office put up a Christmas tree, but they’re calling it a “holiday celebration tree” and everyone is supposed to add an ornament that represents their interests or cultures or so on to hand on the tree. So I imagine they would expect me, as a visibly observant Jew, to hang something Chanukah-related on the tree. Not going to happen. I find it far more offensive to pretend all our distinct religions/cultures can be subsumed under one happy magical tree which has no meaning to me/my religion. These aren’t battles I personally choose to fight, though, so I’m just staying out of it (again, neutral third party observer of the hubbub).
Anyways, you have my sympathy. If you want to create a Corporette Chanukah party threadjack later in December, I will be all over it :)
Herbie
!! I can’t believe this Holiday Celebration tree business! Sounds like something straight out of The Office. No doubt well-intentioned but wholly inappropriate.
Jewish anon
I know, right? It’s sort of cute in its ridiculousness, but also sort of irritating. But not a major life crisis anyway. :)
cfm
Ok but our society is not multicultural where every slice of the pie is the same size. 2% jewish v. 77% identifying as Christian. The office thing was stupid and they shouldn’t do that, but as far as being represented, only people who ARE the religion are going to represent the religion. I don’t want christians putting up menorahs next to their trees, just like I dont want to put a tree next to a menorah that makes no sense. Certain things office, corporations, governments, should not be celebrating christmas. But people? Like I said its like being a Yankee fan in Boston and complaining you are not getting equal representation.
found a peanut
Eh this 77% v. 2% thing is not persuasive. I can assure you that the Jewish-Christian breakdown in my NYC office building is much more even – I wouldn’t be surprised if at least 1/3 of the people in here were Jewish, but the lobby is decked out with a huge tree and other assorted Christmas regalia and one teeny tiny menorah.
anon
NYC is not the US. I live in NYC and yes, it’s more like 40-60, but out there in rest of the country, the Jewish population is much more sparse. There are obvious exceptions (southern Florida, etc).
Most NYC offices that I’ve seen have biiiig menorahs as a result.
Jewish anon
No one’s arguing that people in their own homes should represent all cultures and religions (i.e., “christians putting up menorahs next to their trees”). But it’s a valid argument to make about the public sphere (malls, parks, municipal holiday events, office parties..).
anon
Having gone the other way, as someone raised Jewish who married someone raised Catholic (and who are raising our kids Unitarian), I think the recently converted are more sensitive to this issue than those who have grown up Jewish in a largely (but of course not exclusively) Christian country. I think it helps if you view it as cultural rather than religious. I am amused myself by how many of our Christian friends send their kids to Jewish Center preschools and end up with three year olds singing Dayenu, dancing the hora and bringing home clay dreidels over the course of the year. Cultural senstivity is the key.
found a peanut
Jeez. If this gets you upset I’d hate to see your reaction the next time someone says “That guy tried to Jew me down” or talks about Israel being a Fascist state.*
Seriously, in the realm of anti-Jewish sentiment, the lack of a menorah in a building lobby is not even a blip on the radar.
*I’m a Jew, don’t shoot me.
Alanna of Trebond
I don’t think this makes any sense. If it helps, think about it as “ceremonial deism” — I am not Christian, but I enjoy exchanging and giving presents around this time of the year because I’ve grown up in the United States. As a Hindu, I could hardly expect New York to be decked out for the Durga Puja!
Ceremonial deism is the same as seeing “in God we Trust” on coins, or the religious inscriptions occasionally found in courthouses — my boyfriend is an atheist, and does not have any problems using money, so that sentiment is the same here.
Furthermore, I do think that people try to make an effort about saying “Holidays” rather than Christmas. It is too much to ask that they use the appropriate color scheme as well.
karenpadi
I personally stopped celebrating Christmas a few years ago when I realized I am more agnostic than Christian. Yes, it’s annoying that others put so much meaning into Christmas but I try to just see at as the time of year when people have parties and family reunions.
The thing that really bugs me is when I wish someone a “Happy Holidays” and they respond, “oh, you can say Merry Christmas to me.” What?! Why assume that I celebrate Christmas?
Also, can we ban the small talk question of “What are you doing for Christmas?” I usually respond “I’ll be visiting family over the 25th.” I get a funny look while they process that. :)
Anonymous
Would it bother you to wish someone a cheery Bastille Day when in France? Happy Chusok (sp?) to your Korean friends? You don’t have to be into something to be glad for others’ gladness. I am pro-pro, so always a happy whatever-your-deal-is to everyone. Not about me, about them. Why frown at someone’s smile?
karenpadi
Uh, I never said that I have an issue with people who wish me a “Merry Christmas”. My issue is with people who assume I’d rather say “Merry Christmas” than “Happy Holidays”. This is a sign of the immense privilege Christians enjoy in our society and is really the underlying theme of this thread.
I don’t celebrate Bastille Day or other holidays not celebrated in the USA. So, no, I don’t normally send people those glad tidings. I might say something like, “oh, what a happy/wonderful day! Do you have any plans to celebrate?”
Circe
Don’t expend energy on it, it’s not worth that big a place in your life. Besides, the “Christmas” tree comes from Pagan winter celebrations.
mamabear
I agree with Circe, though some of the arguments about statistics are interesting.
I’m an atheist who celebrates what I’m going to call “the holidays.” I regard it as tradition rather than anything religious. I like the following:
Christmas carols
Christmas trees
Gift giving
Santa Claus
Claymation Rudolph
Green and Red decorations
Cookies
Egg nog
Stockings hung by the fire
If you look at that list, most of these things are not related strongly to the birth of Christ.
I have always thought that Halloween and Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Years celebrations really evolved as milestones for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere to get through winter and look forward to having nice weather again.
mamabear
Also, to the OP, I think you might be more sensitive to this issue this year because you are newly converted.
My little sister went born-again Christian one year and got really p1ssed at me for celebrating Christmas because I’m an atheist. She refused to participate in anything not related to celebrating the birth of Christ that year, including giving gifts to atheists. :) She got over it eventually.
That being said, as an atheist I could (and do) get all prickly about displays of religion in ANY public place, so I hear you.
Em
Yeah, I’m another atheist who celebrates Christmas secularly, for the reasons you state. It’s important to me to have a time set aside for family and giving, and I like the fact that we do that at the darkest time of the year. It feels meaningful for me for reasons entirely unrelated to the birth of Christ, even if it’s called Christmas. So while I understand and am sympathetic to people who don’t celebrate not liking the public displays, a part of me also bristles because I feel like it’s erasing the fact that it’s not a religious thing at all for a lot of us.
Herbie
Atheist, raised atheist! We had a Christmas tree every year growing up, and I’m positively giddy to go buy a tree this Saturday and decorate it because, not gonna lie, I decorate a mean Christmas tree. Also, I have a hilarious Star Trek ornament that, when plugged into a light socket, says, “Spok here. Live long and prosper.”
mamabear
Herbie made me giggle at work.
Em
We have a Star Trek ornament too! Maybe this is a common feature of atheist Christmas; someone should do a doctoral thesis or something.
Noner
That last paragraph is key, I think. Almost every culture (at least in the northern hemisphere) has had some kind of winter solstice celebration – and yes, the Christian co-opted that for Christmas. But it is still a “darkness to light” type of celebration.
And arguably a few things on your list tie into the birth of Christ (albeit symbolically):
– gift giving is emulating the gifts the wise men gave to Baby Jesus
– Christmas trees are evergreens, representing the “evergreen” love of God that had him giving Jesus to the world, or the eternal nature of God’s Love (because the tree is always green and doesn’t lose its leaves)
The rest of it…eh – just good times.
Em
Yeah, I think those things have equally valid secular histories too, though. Gift giving is another cross-cultural universal, and bringing something green and living into your home is another part of the rebirth/darkness-into-light theme.
Bunkster
Hee. Love your list of fave holiday things. I’m adding to it:
The Year Without a Santa Claus. Those miser brothers rock. The rest of the movie is just okay.
Christmas Wrapping (the song)
Christmas in Hollis (the song)
Gingerbread men
Peppermint bark
AnonInfinity
Oh. Em. Gee. Peppermint bark. Yesyesyesyesyesyes.
Bunkster
I just made peppermint bark for the first time last week. It made a huge hit over the holidays.
AnonInfinity
I wish we were friends in real life because I want that gift like woah.
Amy H.
mamabear and Bunkster, I love your lists! I am a new convert to peppermint bark, having had a free taste at a Williams-Sonoma. I should learn to make my own, because theirs is some ridiculous price. Adding:
Spritz cookies made with nutmeg (my Nana’s recipe);
Wreaths made with live materials like huge glossy magnolia leaves;
Holly;
Picking out and wrapping presents;
Driving around our neighborhood and others’ at night to see the Christmas lights; and
Pink Champagne and cheese straws at breakfast Christmas morning!
Bunkster
Amy H, I love picking out Christmas gifts, too. Wrapping… not so much. I can tie a mean bow, though.
I posted the bark recipe in the coffee break.
Anon
Love the list. We celebrate the holiday through traditions we have created in our agnostic/aethiest family largely centered on reflecting on how lucky we are, being kind and giving to others, and sharing time together.
Cajunqueen
My favorite thing about the holidays is seasonal music. I realize that we can play it anytime, but starting Thanksgiving weekend, out come the Windham Hill Winter Solstice CDs, Phil Spector’s Christmas, Christmas in New Orleans and a couple dozen others. Some Christmas music is just awful – I stay away from the pop radio stations during the holidays. But I will put in a plug for WXPN, the U. Penn radio station (which you can listen to on the Internet), which has the best and most sophisticated (and whimsical) variety of holiday music when you get close to the 25th.
RR
I want to be your friend! I couldn’t have described my own beliefs better.
anon
not just the tree, but perhaps even the date itself! so much of it is not about Christ Himself. hence the movement to “keep Christ in Christmas” or whatever it is.
a
“This is a sign of the immense privilege Christians enjoy in our society and is really the underlying theme of this thread.”
I think this sentiment is terrible. The “immense privilege”? It just seems so petty of you to be fixated on this – it’s a celebratory thing for Christians, a time of happiness, and you’re begrudging it because they’re celebrating and you’re not.
MelD
I think it’s really just so commercialized that you can’t really get offended. When I lived in Japan, everyone seemed to go all out on the Christmas decorations. I lived in an area with a fairly large Catholic population, but overall it was still a tiny minority. I’d go to other cities that would be even more blinged out with Christmas decorations. They even have their own traditions like Christmas Cakes. I taught at the time and felt an obligation to introduce my students to other faiths, so we had a Hanukkah day in class with menorahs and other activities.
Nonny
Ditto re commercialization. Thailand is 98% Buddhist, but when I lived there, they put up the most elaborate Christmas lights I’ve ever seen and Santas were everywhere. I am Christian but just had to chuckle at the interpretation because Christmas for most people (including Thai Buddhists, apparently) is far, far removed from its Christian meaning. I didn’t find it insulting, but amusing and really interesting from an anthropological perspective.
Anastasia
I was in Hong Kong for Christmas one year … same thing. The hotel staff said “Merry Christmas!” to everyone all week, and on the actual day, they handed out leis, noise makers, and party hats. It was really interesting (and funny) to see how Christmas was translated in that culture. Obviously VERY different from anything I’ve seen in the U.S.
Also, I’m Christian, and some of my Jewish relatives have the best Christmas and Easter decorations of my entire extended family. They leave out all the religious references, but who doesn’t like presents, big dinners, and hunting in the yard for eggs filled with candy?!
mamabear
I wanted to post once more and say that I appreciate the level of civility exhibited in this thread. Corporette readers are a fabulous bunch!
Jewish
We are a minority in this country. My mom often says in Yiddish “black life for a Jew” (doesn’t translate well, as with most Yiddish expressions) but basically it means that living a Jewish life is not easy, and no one ever said it would be. The winter festivities are in large part not for you. Don’t really have a good response, except that you shouldn’t take it personally.
I also am somewhat amused that almost every culture worldwide has some sort of holiday of lights around this time of year…. I guess everyone needs a little mood boost when it gets dark so early.
1L-1
Es iz shver tzu zein a yid.
You’re welcome!
But really, es iz gut tzu zein a yid! It’s good to be Jewish!
Anon
As a Black person, can I be annoyed when black is used as a negative as in “blackmail” or “black life for a Jew”?
See, we can all find something to be pissed off about if we look hard enough.
I'm saying this with love
Yeah, I’m not trying to be rude but there’s a check your privilege problem here. I’m a black women living in America. Put aside all the actual racial inequality. When it comes to representation; lots and lots of things are exclusionary. Everyday, very little is targeted towards me when it comes to haircare, makeup. Generally, representations of beauty don’t look me (especially since I’m dark skinned). For example, “nude tights”? This isn’t Christmastime, this is all the time. Don’t forget strangers touching your hair, fashion magazines classifying your body type as vulgar and people trying to scientifically prove you are uglier than other races.
Does that mean that I have the right to begrudge white women walking around without paper bags over their heads? And be miserable that other people are happy? Should I get b..tchy everytime someone posts about a conditioner for blond hair or bronzer for pale skin? Why don’t I demand perfect proficiency of the details of a black hair care and skin care regimen from total strangers?
I’m sorry but you sound thin skinned and miserable. What is it that you want? People to sound apologetic and ashamed? People to randomly pick holidays they don’t celebrate and personally celebrate them to make you feel better. Fine, what non Jewish holidays do you celebrate?Do you celebrate Kwanzaa? Eid? Ramadan? Have you advocated for them to be included in the workplace, syllabus, kid’s classroom? No? Then just stop it. You’ve been Jewish for one year. One year. Can you maybe suck it up and get over yourself?
I suppose you are the j erk in the office who likes to ruin it for everyone. Sorry if I sound bitter but life can be tough and some of us – sue us – enjoy the holidays.We’re adult enough to celebrate the parts we like instead of adopting a persecution complex.
Hindu
At my non-US (& non Indian) workplace, I never have anyone wishing me Happy Diwali even though it’s a public holiday where I live and people KNOW I celebrate. That upsets me a little, esp as these are colleagues that have worked with me for years. (And this is the only time I miss India, where we all wish people on their special days, regardless of our personal religion)
After 10 yrs of this, I am now used to it. I do like listening to Xmas carols etc (I was educated at a convent ) and enjoy how pretty it all looks at Xmas. I get loads of Merry Xmas wishes (which I reply to by saying “I don’t celebrate it, but thanks anyway”.
But in my opinion, it is what it is. No point getting all upset about it. Not going to change anything, but will ruin your enjoyment.
a
I agree completely. I feel like it’s a grievance born of entitlement.
1L
I love this question. I’m going to answer this before I read any other responses, because I don’t want to cloud my judgement with that of other people’s, haha.
I won’t point to my specific religion, but just say that I am non-Christian. I have just come to accept the fact that Christmas is so incredibly overinflated (indeed, overcelebrated) that it’s come to the point where the inclusion of other holidays is, to be frank, insulting. Don’t say Happy Diwali to me, Diwali happened a month ago, etc. etc. It’s Christmas, so call it Christmas. Don’t include other religions to justify your own gratuitous celebration (which, by the way, you have every right to celebrate). It’s just frustrating when people pretend otherwise.
And yes, it’s isolating sometimes, but I too can partake in the traditions of Christmas. I can put up a tree, sing carols, etc – it’s all about partaking in the season and the spirit, in my opinion. I think someone should write a paper about this, I find it fascinating.
Liz
Just another perspective, I grew up as one of few Catholics in a very Jewish community. I was the only one that I remember having a confirmation. My husband is Jewish and we try our best to incorporate both religions as neither of us are particularly religious but enjoy all of the traditions. We celebrate all of the Jewish holidays and Xmas and Easter. This time of year we both decorate a tree in silver and white, put up stockings and light the menorah. We are planning to teach our children about both religions and about peace and acceptance. We know that when we have them we will have to find a balance and that may be a struggle. How do those that celebrate both do it?
EFL
Threadjack …
Dear co-worker,
I know you’re weary about 30-something female co-workers because they can, gasp, get pregnant without asking your permission before, and then, gasp, take maternity leave, and then, gasp, probably not be willing to pull 100h work weeks anymore afterwards.
But please stop looking suspiciously at me like I’m a bomb going to explode, just because I’m in the demographic. Every. Single. Meeting. I don’t drink wine because I hate the stuff. I don’t eat cheese because I keep my calories for chocolate. I don’t eat those raw vegetables because they’re not seasonal (OK, we do a lot of meetings during lunch break :) ). I’m wearing an A-line dress because I like it, not to “hide” a tummy. I’m all rested and glowy because I’ve just spend a week-end at the spa. I’m going to the loo because, well … And yes, I know what you think and, no, I won’t justify myself because there will be no end – I’ve seen it before.
And even if I did all of this because I were pregnant, you’d still be a jerk.
spelling
The word is “wary”, not “weary”. :)
EFL
Thank you ! English is not my mothertongue, as you can see, so I welcome corrections :)
Martha
It depends what you mean. Weary = tired, and I would say “weary of.” Wary = suspicious, and I think “wary about” works fine. You probably mean the latter, but as long as we are correcting everyone’s language….
Jr. Prof
I read it as “weary [of],” also, and assumed “about” was a typo.
EFL
Yes, I did mean “wary” !
TCFKAG
I suggest you just start messing with him. Hold big purses over your stomach. Talk about missing cheese now that you don’t eat it anymore (don’t specify why). Etc. It’ll be fun, maybe you can get him to go all twitchy on you.
JessC
“maybe you can get him to go all twitchy on you.”
HAHA.
Do it…
Tired Squared
Oh my goodness please do this. I wish I were in your office so I could watch the twitches!
Martha
That’s probably unwise. If he thinks you are TTC but does not officially know and has any hiring/firing say, you are putting yourself at risk of being fired.
EFL
He can’t fire me (especially for TTC!), but he probably could get me move to an un-interesting job.
Anyway, my motto at work is : “Never display your own personal opinion of someone”. But it’s really hard sometimes !
EFL
That would be fun !!
But I don’t have a lot of people skills, and this person really get on my nerves (on a whole lot of subjects) so I prefer to stay away from him as much as possible: I don’t trust myself :)
Fortunately, we don’t work in the same office and I only get to actually meet him twice a month or so, and never one-to-one.
But getting him all twitchy is tempting :)
TCFKAG
Yeah…in the real world (not the internet) I wouldn’t be nearly cool enough to pull something like that off.
But on the internet, I can pretend. :-)
TCFKAG
I also think the key to making this effective would be to occasionally go way off script (if possible), like by bringing sushi to a lunch. Or eating a bunch of brie one day. Or wearing a shirt that fits snugly on the mid-section.
Okay, I’m done now. :-P
K
Threadjack – I have two best girlfriends from college that I’m still very close with. The three of us lived together in college and now all still live in the same area, so we try to get together once a week or so. There’s always been a sense of ‘if two of us are doing something, the third is always invited or included’ among us. We really don’t ever leave anyone out.
However, in the last few months, my two girlfriends & their SO’s have gotten together twice without inviting me and my boyfriend. I found out via Facebook about both get-togethers and can’t help feeling excluded and like they’re leaving us out on purpose.
It really bothers me, and and ideally I’d like to let them know that I’m a little hurt and would like to be included going forward. Any suggestions on how to best accomplish this? What would you do in this situation?
Herbie
Yikes – I can’t imagine guilting my friends for getting together without me, even if I wish I’d been invited. Feels very high school.
Instead of telling them you’re hurt and demanding to be included next time, why don’t you schedule some time for just you three girls?
cfm
Yeah what is the best case scenerio here? They invite you out of guilt? I would actually be very hurt too, but for some reason they didn’t invite you and the SO. It could range from they didn’t want to hang with you and SO, there was only room for 4, it was an activity they just thought you wouldn’t like, it was completely spur of the moment, etc. Confronting them about it really doesn’t get you a solution. To be frank, they did leave you on purpose. They didn’t forget you existed. There could be many reasons like I said that this happened, but letting them know “you would like to included going forward”? To be honest that is a little nuts you can’t tell people that from now on, you want to be invited to get togethers, when they didn’t invite you. I hope that doesn’t sound to harsh and I would be completely hurt too, but this isn’t two coworkers who had a meeting you needed to be in the loop on, you can’t tell friends that from now, you need to be included in activities they plan.
Herbie
Seriously. If one of my friends sat me down for a heart to heart about how I can’t schedule activities with other people without her because it hurts her feelings, I don’t even know how I’d react. Let’s just say not well. Are you going to put me in your burn book if I dare to do things without you??
a
Pretty harsh, Herbie.
Herbie
:D You made my day. LL points AND getting told all in one Corporette post? #winning
clueless summer associate
Do you think it might be related to your SO? Not that he’s not wonderful and they don’t like him…but is there some kind of connection between the other two girls’ SOs that yours doesn’t have? (They knew each other before/similar interests/etc.) And so the interactions were because of the SOs?
Other than that…if you want to talk to them about it, I’d be sure you do it with both there, so that anything said doesn’t get misconstrued when they talk later. A lunch or coffee would work. I would just focus on saying how you love that you can be a group of 3 without excluding the others (which is difficult, 3 is a hard number), but you noticed they have been going out together just themselves and it hurts you.
MelD
I’d ask one friend if there was some reason why you were excluded. Since it is a couple-oriented activity, it may be that they thought your SO would not enjoy the activity. I know I have had many friendships where someone’s SO would come along and be so clearly uncomfortable that it made everyone else uncomfortable as well. It’s really hard to tell a friend that’s the issue, so I think it’s often just easier to avoid inviting the friend if we know it’s something the SO will attend.
non
Initiate the invite and set up something for the 6 of you to do.
Mention that you saw the they did X (they posted it publicly, after all) and just let them know that “hey, X sounded like fun. BF and I would love to join you if you do it again”.
It could be perfectly innocent – they were just in the same time/same place, etc. Maybe it was easier to coordinate 4 people instead of 6. Maybe you’re growing apart. Who knows.
Anon13
Sometimes it can be just a big pain to coordinate more than 4 people. I know I hate doing things with more than that, because it’s hard to keep a conversation going without it breaking off into 2 or 3 little mini-conversations between pairs or groups of 3 or 4.
Also, it’s not necessarily a good thing to only see your friends as a group. I have two close girl friends and, although we regularly meet in a group for lunch, it’s nice to do things with each of them individually, and I know they sometimes like to get together without me.
Why not initiate something with just one of your two friends and her SO and see what happens? Then try the other friend and her SO in a week or two.
Herbie
Also, I’m curious how old you all are / where you’re at life stage-wise? At this point in my life, most of my friends and I are so busy (work, professional commitments, other social activities, vacations, Sig. Os and husbands, other family, kids/pregnant/TTC) that seeing each other once a week is a virtual impossibility. Trying to schedule getting more than two of us together is a challenge, at best. I’m impressed that you manage to get six people together on a weekly basis, so I’m curious– are your friends married? Do they have kids? Do you all have pretty regular work hours (9-5?) with no evening / weekend work?
anon
ditto, herbie.
i’m 35, happy to see my/our friends when we can, but really do not feel the need to regulate who they see when i or we are not there. OP, rather than dwell on hurt feelings, I agree with the suggestion to just initiate a plan for the six of you if that’s what you want.
K
We’re in all our early twenties; our SO’s are a little older – late twenties-30.
We rarely ever all get together with our SO’s, mostly it’s just us three girls that try to spend time together. We often do hang out in pairs, but the third one is always aware of it and knows that they’re more than welcome to come. None of us has any kids and 5/6 of us work full-time.
Noner
So the thing you think you’ve been excluded from (your girls + SOs getting together) isn’t even a regular thing. Am I the only one confused about what you are upset about?
K
I’m just feeling a little hurt about being left out twice recently. It’s pretty much always been an ‘unspoken rule’ that if you invite one part of the trio, you automatically include the other part too.
We all don’t necessarily attend everything, but among the 3 of us, each is always aware of any get-together and knows they’re welcome if they want to come. Maybe it’s a little strange to some, but we’ve been friends for 5+ years and always operated like this.
anon
it’s not strange to me, in that when you were 18-23 things were always like this.
but let this be a gentle lesson that things change from here on out. life will get busier, your priorities will change, and you will probably grow apart – i’m not saying you’ll lose the friendships, but it’s just not going to be the same as it was in college or right after college.
sorry. but honestly, it’s not a bad thing. Friends and S&TC are great in re-runs, but there’s a reason those shows went off the air :) Life evolves and gets more complicated.
MelD
@K, things change when you get older. I think it’s a little unrealistic to expect everything to remain exactly the same indefinitely. It sounds like you are still in your 20s, and I think this is a common experience many people go through as they get older and interests/lifestyles change. Plus, this isn’t just a matter of a trio- it’s a couples thing. You may have a great dynamic as a trio, but not the same dynamic as three couples because the SOs don’t get along, or you don’t get along with some of the SOs, etc.
AnonInfinity
I understand where you’re coming from too, K. I know that I’ve had the same feelings before. My friendships in those instances were changing, but with some effort, the relationships are still great. They’re just as strong as they were before, just in different forms.
I agree with the previous posters who suggested planning an activity for all 6 of you if you want to all get together. The thing I wouldn’t do is bring it up to either of your friends. As others have mentioned, it would either create a wedge between you and the other 2 or it would make you wonder if they were always inviting you and SO just to be nice.
cfm
I completely understand being hurt, but there is nothing you can do about it. You can’t insist on being invited. They didn’t invite you for a reason, and like I said that can range anything from just a fluke (they were all together) to malicious (they did not want to see you). Of course your hurt but you can’t tell them you want to be invited. If you want to speak to them about how you are hurt I would try to keep it light- oh that sounded like fun, would love to do that sometime or next time!
Anonymous
I have been there and understand feeling hurt, but I wouldn’t bring it up to your friends. This dynamic seems to happen a lot in groups of just three friends. Personally, I have found success in just ignoring it and just looking forward.
I’d recommend initiating plans with them, both or just one, to hang out. Also, as someone else mentioned, there are a myriad of potential reasons why this has happened: maybe their SOs do not like your SO; maybe they do like your SO, maybe their SOs do not like you; maybe they were happened to be in the same area, maybe it was a last minute get together, etc. But stressing about why will just drive you crazy, I would try to forget it, and focus on continuing growing a positive relationship with them moving forward.
Lola
I wouldn’t make a huge deal of it, but if I was one of your close girlfriends, and something I had done had hurt your feelings, I would be ok with your bringing it up. “It kind of hurt my feelings when I saw on facebook that you guys did _____.”
If they say, “Hey, listen, our relationship is going to change,” then accept it and grow with them. But they may say, “You know, your boyf is a real jerk sometimes, or he chews with his mouth open, or whatever, so we didn’t really want to invite him to this particular fancy dinner. I’m really sorry it hurt you. We should try to do more things as a group of 6 in the future.”
As a Corporette said a week or so ago, it gives them the opportunity to fix the problem or help you feel better, and strengthen your relationship. Not telling them never gives them that opportunity.
CO
I politely disagree. She has only been excluded a couple times. This is not a big enough reason to have a heart-to-heart about feeling left out. Maybe K needs to branch out and meet new people so she isn’t so reliant on these two friends. Then she won’t feel so hurt in the future if this happens from time to time. She can’t expect to always be included. That’s just not realistic.
Ann Taylor promo codes or coupons?
So after ignoring every email from AT over the past few days, I fell in love with a sweater today that is not on sale. And only in my size. Anyone have a promo or coupon? I just can’t stand the thought of paying more than $100 for something that will probably be immediately on sale tomorrow.
eh230
I think a sale starts tomorrow for 30% off. I remember getting something in the mail, but I don’t have the code now.
Ann Taylor Promo Codes or Coupons?
Thanks Eh230. I dug up the envelope from last month’s bill and fortunately found a 30 percent code for using my card. I swear, it’s exhausting. I miss the good old days sometimes where sales weren’t an everyday event, and you could actually shop somewhere without doing a running list of potential discounts all of the time. AT and Macys seem to be the worst. I absolutely won’t go into the brick and mortar stores for them anymore unless I’m adequately “prepared.”
Me too
Can someone recommend a product that does NOT have Retin-A or hydroquinone in it for evening out one’s complexion (particularly for someone of color)? I’m trying to conceive so I don’t want to use RetinA or hydroquinone. The area about my chin/upper lip has always been darker than the rest of my face and I’d love to find someone that can even it out. I believe that there is a product by Clinique, anyone use it for this purpose? Thanks.
PollyD
Can someone recommend a product that does NOT have Retin-A or hydroquinone in it for evening out one’s complexion (particularly for someone of color)? I’m trying to conceive so I don’t want to use RetinA or hydroquinone. The area about my chin/upper lip has always been darker than the rest of my face and I’d love to find someone that can even it out. I believe that there is a product by Clinique, anyone use it for this purpose? Thanks.
S
I’m afraid I don’t have a suggestion since it seems like most things rely either on hyroquinone or a retinoid. I had really great results with a laser treatment but that probably won’t work well if you’re of color. Both my grandma and my best friend tried the Clinique product religiously for several months and neither saw the slightest difference (gma had a large dark splotch on her check and my friend just has some minor uneveness in her very fair skin).
North Shore
I like DHC’s alpha-arbutin line. You can call them for free samples, I think.
Bursting out
I like Origins’ Brighter by Nature moisturizer and serum. I stopped using RetinA when TTC, and this is nearly as good.
mamabear
I don’t have a suggestion but suggest you check out beautypedia DOT com.
MelD
I have that issue as well and haven’t had any luck solving the problem. I’ve used the Aveda Enbrightenment line to help with some discoloration in other areas and it seems to have helped there, but I think there is some other underlying cause for my chin being darker than the rest of my face.
Anon
Check out Paula’s Choice products. She has a lightening product that I’ve used. It’s pretty good, and I don’t think it has HQ in it. You can call the very friendly and helpful customer service line and ask them about products. You might also be able to use a high level AHA, depending on how dark the spot is.
Me too
Thank you all, I greatly appreciate it! Will check out your recs.
ANON
The Christmas tree is not religious in nature. That’s why it’s there. You ask why there are no star of david’s or menorahs, but there’s also no crosses or manger scenes.
The Christmas tree symbolizes the holiday season. Red and green are used for Christmas and also for Kwanza. Blue, the color for Hanukkah is often seen with whites and silvers for winter themes.
I think you are WAY overthinking your marginalization.
Kelly
raised Christian, parents don’t put a tree.
anon
It’s not a holiday season at all for some people
Bunkster
I just spent 45 minutes waiting for the Amrita Singh sale to open on Ideeli, but I got these skull earrings for my sister:
http://www.ideeli.com/events/69858/offers/2879426/latest_view/1972874
And then I got the ruby East Hampton earrings for myself
Bunkster
Here’s an invite to ideeli: http://www.ideeli.com/invite/bknow0824
Kady
Your pop color again!
mamabear
What the what?? I love that jewelry.
Bunkster, you are a bad influence. In the very best way, of course. :)
Bunkster
Hee. Sorry. Maybe you can do the “one for me, one for someone else” thing that I just did.
a.
mamabear, it’s not just you…Amrita Singh is the reason I took myself off the ideeli mailing list. the temptation was too great.
conbrio
Does anyone have any experience with Exclusively Misook knits? I’m looking at this skirt, and it’s hard to tell what the fabric is like (and if it would be worth $180, which is a little steep for me). Thank you!
http://www.dillards.com/product/Exclusively-Misook-Knit-Long-Skirt_301_-1_301_500952102
mamabear
Misook is like a somewhat cheaper St. John (cheaper but not cheap) – the knits are heavy and relatively structured, for a knit anyway. The cut is more straight up-and-down, so it doesn’t work for hourglassy me. A skirt would be nice for most figures, but you’d have to try it on to make sure it didn’t cling to your hips and curve in on your thighs, if that makes sense. That’s what happened for me.
conbrio
Good to know – thank you. I’m an hourglass too. I’m hoping this particular fabric will be more flowy than clingy. I ordered it, so I’ll find out soon!
mamabear
I just wanted to add an on-topic comment. I love this cardigan. I wish it came in a size other than 4. :)
I am always on the lookout for pieces that have the comfort of a sweater but the polished look of a jacket.
Coach Laura
Me, too, Mamabear. If anyone else knows of some interesting ones, please post…especially in petite sizes.