Weekend Open Thread

265 Comments

1. I need advice on how to handle my boss, a dentist, who is making unwanted advances. I am the only employee, a receptionist. The money is good and I like my job. He is married too, which makes it even worse because I know her. I am not interested in him but need to keep my job. Advice?

   1. Oh, this is a tough one.

      Since you have no HR and no coworkers to witness anything, you’ll likely not have any allies or anyone who can intervene for you. I can see some possibilities: 1) Tell him upfront that you don’t “date” married men and you aren’t interested in a relationship and you just want to do your job well. This is where you’re in effect saying that you won’t be bullied and you will walk if he bothers you. Be ready to look for another job. 2) Talk to a local attorney who deals with employment discrimination and see if they have any advice. You may be able (depending on state law – it’s legal in some, not in others) to record your boss with your phone or a recording device and keep that for evidence later. You could also try a legal aid clinic associated with a university. Then have the attorney write him a letter. Be ready to look for another job.

      None of these are good options and involve some risk – he could assault you or sabotage you or stalk you, all of which are worse than being fired. Or maybe he’ll see that you mean business and leave you alone.

      If you’re going to talk to him, I’d suggest having a someone – friend, family, attorney – wait in the lobby of his office (or out in the hallway) while you talk to him in his office, for your personal safety.

      I don’t know if your job is tenable in the long term… I sound like a recording but “Be ready to look for another job.” Sorry you’re dealing with this and good luck.

      1. I am pretty sure Rachel is one of the new trolls. Check out her double post from the morning thread.

         1. +1.

         2. Oh, no. I hate getting tricked, if it was trollposting.

      2. I second this great advice!

   2. Honestly, I looked for another job a sap when this happened.

      Your other option is to have a big, strong “boyfriend” pick you up after work, and introduce dentist to him. A few times of this can be very powerful.

   3. Does anyone else read the posts from Ellen/Rachel/Rita/etc. and assume it is all the same weird dude sitting in his mom’s basement and trolling us?

      1. I think this one is on the level. Stop bashing everyone who has serious issues you simply can’t identify with.

      2. Uh… You think I’m troll-y? I’ll have to read over my posts.

         Nope. Regular poster, frequently change my handle (if I even bother…) to stay anon..

         1. Cheers! I think Anon and others like her think that anyone with a boyfriend or not married is a troll. A strange criterion for identifying posters willing to provide input on a Friday afternoon (before meeting their boyfriends for a wild weekend!)

            1. Sorry, I agree with her. Your vaguely sexist comments do not compute.

            2. ?

         2. You guys have really bummed me out.

            I’m a Misogynist? Really?

            I am a regular poster, a doctor, and have been sexually harassed at work multiple times. I left one of my first jobs when my married boss (a lab head/professor) was inappropriate with me. I didn’t know how to deal. About 7 years later, when I worked in a different lab, the 70 year old married chairman was a well known lech. His lab was small, all women, and I was the youngest. I started having a friend who as 6’4″ guy come and pick me up after work and introduced him to my boss as my boyfriend. The harassment stopped. Hey, stupid guys who don’t listen to “no” ….. sorry, but bringing in another man to visually convince him he didn’t have a chance and to even look a little threatening was what worked for me. It got me through the rest of the year until I moved to my next position. I still felt awkward and uncomfortable on a daily basis. I am not as strong a woman as I would like to be. I also did not want to threaten my academic future by reporting him.

            The last time I was made to feel uncomfortable because of a guy’s advances at work was when I was an MD PhD fellow and my program director and his colleagues (essentially, all of my bosses!) decided it would be good to fix me up with another professor that I worked with on a daily basis. One of my supervisors. A professor who is partially overseeing my training, recently divorced. And then the regular pressure started on me to start dating him.

            This was so, so awful.

            I should have just lied that time and told everyone I had a boyfriend so they would leave me alone. Because saying “please stop”, “I don’t date people I work”, and “He is one of my superiors!!!”.

            And then I felt the repercussions. SO SO subtle, but they affected me being invited to meetings (everything was made a little inconvenient), problems with writing joint papers and authorship. All the male friends of this professor I “snubbed” then snubbed me. I left that job.

            I have posted about this before.

            I’m hard core focused at work. I have been a strong feminist since I was 12 and wrote my first report on the ERA. But I am not very good managing issues with men in the workplace when they make me uncomfortable. And my career has suffered for it.

            And people are now calling me misogynist?

            What the heck…

            Sometimes you guys need to just keep reading…. and lighten up.

      3. Don’t think this is Ellen – no spelling errors or words in CAPS!! Maybe someone new.

         1. On second thought, I would like to have this comment not posted. It was made in a joking manner but I can see that it’s pretty nasty.

      4. yes, I definitely do.

   4. Troll-y or not, I deal with this all the time and think it’s a conversation worth having! There’s a thin line between getting shut out of deals and getting the advances to stop. If you come out too strong, then that guy won’t work with you anymore and will chaulk it up to you being a B. On the other hand, not strong enough and you’ve got an old creepy dude sticking his tongue down your throat. I hate that guys don’t realize how inappropriate this behavior is, and that we have to deal with it at all. But, my method has been to pull the “oh, if only you weren’t married” card. Let’s them know I’m not interested without saying I’m not into him and offending his sensitive ego. Would love to hear more thoughts on this.

   5. Wow, the troll folk really need to get a life. It’s amazing you don’t have anything more meaningful to do with your time.

      1. Certainly could be trolls, but then again, I had a (married and prominent) partner try to kiss me after walking me back to my car after the firm holiday party. It was late and dark and in a part of town I didn’t really want to walk alone through. I didn’t realize the offer to walk me to my car also was the offer to stick his tongue down my throat. He hadn’t hit on me previously (although other attorneys in the firm had) so I was even more taken aback than I would have been if one of the usual suspects tried it. I never got another bit of work from that partner.

         1. At least you kept your job. I lost mine after a month of sex.

            1. Are these posts all written by the same person? Rachel = MsJD = Carole….etc.?

            2. Definitely. Ellen is the only one that uses Ellen caps and typos, but there’s a whole host of others (Rita, Geri) who post the same vaguely misogynist comments.

            3. I feel like I should change my username since all the trolls have “short first woman’s name” on lockdown.

            4. And likely was terrible. Law firm partners fancy themselves as stud muffins for the new associates when those days were over 30+ years ago. The fiction differs from the reality when they totally fail to perform, let alone satisfy, at every level. Most partners do not measure up and are more like Sam Waterston than Ewan McGregor.

         2. I had this exact thing happen to me in my early 20s. A VP offered to walk me back to my car after an evening work function in a sketchy part of town, then grabbed and tried to kiss me in the parking lot. Luckily, a male coworker happened to follow us out (VP didn’t realize he was behind us) and saw the whole thing. VP immediately backed off and it never happened again.

2. Have you lived in Chicago? If so what is life like — COL (apartment for a single person age 35 — something nice but not overly lavish but REALLY close to work); public transportation; general hecticness of city life; are people nice/welcoming or is it more insular bc it’s all Midwesterners who have friends/family that moved to Chicago for their jobs and then stayed for their whole careers?

   Bonus points if you can compare it to a city I’ve lived in like NYC or DC. NYC I found REALLY hectic and overcrowded and dirty and the way I dealt was by having a job that required 24-7 work and I lived 5 blocks away so I never dealt with the subway; did not enjoy paying $2500 for a tiny old studio. DC — marginally better but not by much; way better real estate esp just outside the city in Arlington where you can get luxury condos for $2500 but then I had to commute . . . . Just trying to figure out if Chicago is a city I should add to my radar for job search purposes or if it isn’t different enough from NYC or DC to be worth the cross country move.

   1. I think Chicago is basically an ideal city IF you can put up with its negative aspects. The two biggest things that I am glad I got away from are the terrible, miserable winters, and the lack of diversity.

      I haven’t lived in New York so I don’t know how it directly compares, but Chicago winters are bleak. I read a quote once that said “I think that’s how Chicago got started. A bunch of people in New York said, ‘Gee, I’m enjoying the crime and the poverty, but it just isn’t cold enough. Let’s go west.’” If that sounds like something that would be difficult for you, it’s not ideal.

      The diversity thing is interesting – you would think, being a major city, that it would be relatively diverse, but it is very segregated. I grew up in Chicago and whenever I go back, it’s a bit of culture shock to realize that it is not as cosmopolitan as you would expect from a city of its size. It has a very Midwestern feel to it in some ways.

      All that being said, it’s a great place to live if neither of those things bother you. My parents live in the suburbs now and my sister lives close to downtown – I love going to visit her especially because you can walk / take public transport everywhere, there’s lots of do, etc. It is nowhere near as hectic as New York but still has an urban feel to it, depending on where you live.

   2. To me, Chicago was a good respite from NYC. When I first moved there, it felt really slow. Everything is just a little easier than NYC, like things are less crowded, things are marginally cheaper.

      People were nice and I made friends at what I thought was a reasonable pace. Once you have one friend who is from there, you can meet their friends!

      Chicago, like NYC, has lots of walkable neighborhoods. I think the bar culture is really fun. I even got into watching sports, because it was so fun to have a few beers and snacks while sitting at a bar rooting for the Hawks or whomever. There’s lots of great live music, awesome food in all categories, and the art scene is great too.

      Rent is a LOT cheaper than NYC/DC. My apartment was a big-ish one bedroom in a historical building (hardwood, brick), well maintained but not super recently renovated, two blocks from the train (35 minute train commute to work in the Loop), in a cute and safe and walkable neighborhood, and I paid $1000 in rent, including heat. However, I was NOT “really” close to work. I had no problems with a 35 minute commute — I read the news on my phone, or a book on my kindle, and generally used the time to wake up. But if you want to live a five minute walk to a job in the loop, well, then you’re looking at maybe double the rent. (And also, the loop isn’t as fun a place to live.)

      1. I have lived in Chicago and NYC and agree. It feels more liveable than NYC does. You can have a washer/dryer in your unit or in your basement, parking, and a reasonable rent. The averages skew because the city is soooo spread out and plenty of people live in city limits that have no need to cluster near the loop for work, so the cost skews a bit. I would say you could get a nice 1Br for around 1800. I also enjoy that not everything is tiny and cramped, like in NYC, where it feels like every grocery store, target, movie theater, feels soooo tight and claustrophobic. Chicago is extremely diverse but segregated, but you should really make an effort to visit Little Italy, Little India on Devon, Chinatown, Ukrainian Village, etc. to really experience all it has to offer. Compared to NYC and DC you will likely be making around the same salary but the cost of living is lower, so you effectively have more money. I do find the people to be more considerate (people hold doors open for you, have picked things up for me that I have dropped, helped moms with strollers) but still have the city feel of minding their own business.

         As for weather, I have also lived in LA; if you lived in DC and NYC, Chicago is the same.

         1. +1 to Little India and Ukranian Village. I haven’t been to Chinatown, but for the former two you can feel really immersed in the culture going into those neighborhood’s. It’s not nearly as commercial as Chinatown in DC. The Arts scene in Chicago is thriving, and there is something for every taste, CSO and the Art Institute are my two favorites and probably the more well-known too.

            And yes Chicago winters can be a shock, but unlike DC everyone is very prepared and it really isn’t bad if you can handle NYC too. I love winter though.

      2. If you are die hard East Coast/Mid-Atlantic, you will not be happy in Chicago. The culture, values, and wardrobe requirements are too different. It is a large city with direct flights everywhere. It feels less third world than DC and so much larger. But it is smaller than NYC. Compensation is the same or higher than DC or NYC, with a much lower cost of living. People are not as angry and freaked out, maybe due to the lower cost of living. Traffic is bad, but lacks that “you may die at any moment” quality that you get every day in Maryland. I have seen more interracial couples and multi-racial children in Chicago and its suburbs than in DC and NY. But you can find the same kind of ultra white segregation that you have in DC NOVA and parts of NYC. People are taller and larger. Like Germany and the Netherlands, Chicagoans may frequently pat petite East Coast men and women on the head and direct them to the children’s clothing department. If you have to ask, “will it be like DC and NYC (which are only similar in the East Coast populations that boomerang between them)?,” then no–please do not move to Chicago.

   3. Good recs so far.

      I’ve lived in NY/SF/Boston and overseas and grew up in Chicago and live there now.

      Chicago is city beautiful and very clean with lots of very reasonably priced housing c/w NYC/SF/Boston. It seemed like an utter bargain when I moved back. BUT I when I lived smack downtown to commute by foot to work, I found shopping/restaurants/taxes pricey compared to some other cities. Just keep that in mind. I agree that living in walking distance to work if you work downtown is not always ideal….sometimes a short commute might be worth it. Some downtown neighborhoods living in huge high rises felt a bit sterile to me.

      Chicago is shockingly segregated, political corruption is the norm and is infuriating. I live in the most diverse community in the area and it isn’t integrated or progressive enough for me.

      When I moved here, I thought a lot of people in my field were “…lazy. It’s not the coasts. Marrying younger, family, lifestyle are valued more. Not a bad thing, but for me…. Eh? Mixed feelings. It is much healthier though, and I have relaxed my type A personality a little.

      In any city this size, you will find friends. With age you have to make an effort/get contacts from friends/use hobbies to meet people. I am NOT a bar hopping sports lover, and find that some areas of the city (very white non-integrated) are way too Midwest frat boy for me.

      But the culture here is great – amazing Symphony, theater stages, dance, museums, free festivals and cultural events, great parks and lake shore. Good reastaurants…. But I still miss NYC and SF for food.

      If you are used to winters in NYC, you’ll be able to handle Chicago. Fall is beautiful. Spring is… Non-existent. That can be hard, and a good vacation every winter helps.

      1. Interesting point about the “lazy.” I find Chicago to be on par with NYC and DC but healthier/less crazed (at least in law, there’s biglaw and there’s NYC biglaw– even working at the Chicago office of an NYC biglaw life will be better). It’s a nice in-between because I find people in LA to be so weirdly into Hollywood culture / film industry that if you work in finance or law, you are seen as soo odd.

         All in all, every city has its pros and cons; I think you should definitely consider Chicago.

         1. My husband and I kept finding ourselves, in our first six months in Chicago, saying to each other, “no sense of urgency.” If the train is pulling into the station and you might not catch it, people in Chicago have been heard to say “there’ll be another train.” In NYC I was more likely to hear something a little but less zen. It was weird at first, especially working with people who weren’t always at a low level of panic. But it’s not so bad once you get used to it — in fact, it can be pretty pleasant!

      2. I dunno, I think the Chicago winters are way colder and longer than NYC. But on the bright side, none of the stinky summer trash smell in Chicago!

         1. +1 I love Chicago but the winters are noticeably worse than in the Northeast, mostly in terms of their length. Fall ends earlier and spring starts later.

         2. Yes, but you can handle it if you can handle NYC. It’s not THAT much colder or snowy-er. And the city is much better at plowing than in NYC/Boston etc..

   4. I have lived in Chicago and DC, and visit NYC often. Rent in Chicago is far cheaper. I paid about $1500 for a large one bedroom in a desirable neighborhood in Chicago; a similar-sized apartment in a similar neighborhood in DC cost me $2400.

      Chicago feels far less crowded than NYC. Downtown is more crowded that downtown DC, but the residential areas have a comparable feel as far as space as DC. I think people tend to have longer commutes by public transit in Chicago because things are more spread out, but you could choose to live in an area close to where you work; it just might not be one of the trendier neighborhoods.

      The people in Chicago are way more laid back than in DC, and way less career-focused. In general I prefer this, though sometimes it was too sports-focused for me and I missed the intellectual culture of DC. People are generally friendlier in Chicago. I get what LAnon said about segregated neighborhoods, and that’s true, but you do see a diverse crowd if you commute on public transit and spend time outside of the typical neighborhoods on the near north side. There is also more career diversity (but less geographic diversity – lots of people who have never lived anywhere outside of the midwest).

      The biggest downsides to Chicago for me were the weather and the feeling of isolation. I like being able to hop on the Amtrak in DC and go to Philly and NY. From Chicago, your only real option for a weekend city getaway without flying is Milwaukee.

   5. I lived in Chicago for almost 9 years and echo what others have said – very clean city, less expensive than NYC or DC, definitely a Midwestern feel from a cultural standpoint, which has its pros and cons but I grew up in the Midwest so I liked that aspect.

      One thing I will note: by the time I moved (in my early 30s) almost all of the friends that had stayed in Chicago were people who had family in the area. It’s not insular, but in my experience, the majority of people who stick around are people with roots in the area.

      The only other thing I’d consider is how you feel about outdoor activity. If you can get your nature fix through running along the lake, you’re all set, but if you’re someone who likes mountains, you’ll need to travel to get that.

   6. I have lived in Chicago for all of my adult life (and grew up in the suburbs). However, I went to college at a school that drew people from around the country/world, and I think that has greatly impacted my social scene here. Most of my friends are transplants who have bought places and are committed to Chicago long-term. I met many of them through undergrad or through loose undergrad connections. Also, I work at a company that has a lot of transplants, so I feel like the odd one out for being a native.

      I agree with what everyone above has said re: weather. Winters are really rough. Plan a February or March vacation to make it through. The unrelenting combination of gray days, snow, and below freezing temps makes me question why I live here each year — and I say this as someone who loves seasons. Fortunately, fall is absolutely beautiful here, though, and summers are lovely and lively.

      As for the diversity thing, while the city as a whole is diverse, you’d never know it spending time in most trendy neighborhoods. You have to make an effort to get outside of the bubble of popular neighborhoods. Few areas feel truly integrated.

      Agree that certain north side neighborhoods are way too fratty if you’re not a sports and beer loving type (I am most definitely not!). That can feel like the default here.

      COL is great. I live in a $1200 1 BR with parking and in-unit w/d. However, my commute is 45 minutes. I don’t mind at all because it’s a pleasant ride on the brown line and I get some walking in on both ends of the train ride, but that may be too long for some.

      There is endless housing variety, like most big cities. I live in a leafy, quiet neighborhood with a very residential feel, but if you want 3-flats, high-rises, or anything else, you’ll find it.

      I struggle with the cosmopolitan thing. It’s not NYC, true. It is noticeably less international than SF or DC. still, you can find those pockets by getting involved with the right activities.

      Cultural scene is amazing, especially in fall.

      The last 5-10 years have seen the rise of a real tech scene here. Lots of startups and digital firms. Check out 1871 to learn more.

      I think the city has undergone a transformation in the last 15 years. It feels much glossier and prettier downtown. The additions of the riverwalk and millennium Park have revived the Loop, bringing much more foot traffic and high-end residential to that area. More companies are moving their headquarters from the suburbs to downtown. The downtown area feels robust and thriving in a way it definitely did not when I was younger.

      Speaking very generally, my impression is that while poorer people have been leaving the city (we had a net loss of people last year), we are getting a lot more wealthy people at the urban core.

      Phew. Sorry for the novel. Hope this is helpful, and I’m happy to answer any other questions. Good luck!

   7. I’ve lived in Chicagoland my whole life (now in early 40s) and spent my 20s living in downtown Chicago. This is what I will say:

      The city is clean and beautiful. When I go to NY, I’m always overwhelmed by the trash and smell. It’s not like that here.

      If you live downtown, the streets are literally laid out on a grid and it’s very easy to navigate once you figure it out (I still can’t figure out DC’s quadrant system). That said, the traffic is horrendous if you have to navigate by car. The El system isn’t too bad and isn’t complicated to figure out. If you want to live very close to “the Loop” where many office buildings are–get opinions from people who had lived there RECENTLY. It has changed dramatically since the early 2000s. When I went to law school in the loop from 1997 to 2000, it was a ghost town after 8 pm (save for the Lyric Opera goers trekking to the train after a performance) but there was a huge influx of restaurants and residential building to that area since the mid-2000s. I would imagine it’s much more livable now. The “frat boy/party culture” is what I saw (again, back in the early 2000s) in Lincoln Park and Lakeview, which is where a lot of young professionals migrated right after college in the early 2000s. There are a ton of other neighborhoods though if that’s not your scene. I ended up buying my condo in 2004 in the (far) south loop/Museum Campus area. That was definitely more diverse from a cultural perspective (e.g., more families/retirees/mid-career folks) but not necessarily more racially diverse. It was also gorgeous. It put you within walking distance of the lakefront–but it was not nearly as crowded as the beaches up north–good restaurants, the Art Institute, Michigan Avenue, etc. etc.

      The culture is genuinely nice. People hold doors, will stop to help you if you look lost or confused…etc. Once, I saw a blind man approaching a bridge that was under construction and had warning signs he (obviously) couldn’t see, so I offered to walk with him a block to make sure he got around the gaping hole in the bridge. It’s that kind of city.

      Illinois politics are maddeningly corrupt and Chicago is the center of that. Property taxes in many suburbs of Chicago are exorbitant but they’re actually not that bad in the city proper. But I find that, perhaps unlike DC, politics doesn’t necessarily dominate every conversation. There are lots of crowds (like mine) where it’s sort of like the weather….it is what it is and we don’t talk much about it.

      You will find a lot of “lifers” here, like me, who have lived their whole lives here and have deep roots. That said, I don’t think it’s an exclusive culture where if you’re shunned if you can’t trace your roots back 100 years. You will see a fair number of greetings that go like this: “Where you from? Which HS did you go to? Oh, that’s where my sister went. What year did you graduate? Do you know so-and-so?” But there are lots of us who weren’t born and raised in the city and don’t have that type of connection and I’ve never felt excluded.

      The downsides of living here in my order of irritation: Traffic, Weather (cold/snowy in winter; hot/humid/muggy in summer), surrounding area is not very diverse. You can drive to WI, MI, Minn, etc. and visit a lot of small towns with cute little shops….but you can’t very well drive an hour west to the mountains or east to the ocean.

3. Thoughts on the University of Chicago letter to incoming freshmen about no more trigger warnings/safe spaces? I’m in support of this policy at the university level – I find it despicable that students have forced the cancellation of events and speakers they find personally objectionable (especially when it comes to feminist speakers!). I do hope that student groups and university resources will offer strong mental health resources, though.

   1. Feminist speakers? From what I’ve seen, this safe spaces argument has been used to support a liberal agenda, stifling anything else. I’ve not seen anything about feminist speakers being cancelled. Links?

      Also, I love that they did that.

      1. One of the more well-known examples was Julie Bindel (a noted lesbian feminist) getting disinvited to debate at University of Manchester in the UK (“no-platforming.”) My alma mater, Brandeis, also reneged on giving an honorary degree to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a major opponent of FGM, for making controversial statements about Islam. I’m sure there are other examples as well, but those are the two that came to mind for me.

   2. The whole concept of a “trigger warning” wasn’t really a thing when I was in either undergrad or law school. I don’t think I heard the phrase until after I graduated from both. So I feel like this is a generational culture divide that I don’t even really understand.

      I will say though that as an assault survivor I would have really appreciated it if someone had told my crim law professor that rape jokes aren’t OK. He somehow never got that memo.

      1. That is terrible!

         I will say I was really lucky to have a sensitive crim law professor – he was an older white man but did a great job of making sure he was being sensitive about a difficult topic.

         1. To attempt to give him some credit, it’s possible he was incredibly uncomfortable and was attempting to use humor to break the tension. Bad instinct if that’s what he was doing.

            And if instead he just thought rape was all fun and games as a topic, yeah, eff him.

      2. Well, THAT is definitely not okay and isn’t included in this type of discussion (rather, TWs now are used to warn students about potentially scary subjects they might read in books). I’m sorry that happened in your class.

      3. Wow, I feel like a grandma and I’m not yet 40. I don’t even know what trigger warnings and safe spaces are, other than hearing my interns allude to them. When I was in undergrad at Georgetown, the three most memorable speakers that I heard on campus were the Dalai Lama, Bill Clinton and Larry Flynt. Even though I consider myself a feminist, guess who I found most fascinating? After reading a book for my freshman U.S. political systems class about the importance of his court battles, it was absolutely amazing to see Larry Flynt, as repulsive as he is, sitting there in his wheelchair, trying to make a coherent speech. I guess now someone like him would not even be allowed on campus?

   3. Maybe next they’ll remove all the allergen information in the university dining.

      1. Yeah, not sure how that’s analogous. Eating an allergen can kill you. Reading about ideas you disagree with can’t.

         1. I assume it’s a joke.

         2. I get it. Some topics can trigger PTSD responses, which can take someone offline for learning or participating, rather than allowing them to make decisions about how they would attend an event.

         3. The thing is, being triggered *can* have fatal consequences. Not as immediate s as anaphylatic shock, but that doesn’t mean they do not exist.

            Being triggered by something goes beyond “not liking” something – it is being adversely affected by it.

   4. I think that trigger warnings, as with most thigns, are valuable and have their place in moderation, but that they’ve been used over-aggressively and essentially weaponized to shut down an overly broad category of speech. What I found to be an appropriate level of trigger warning: my crim professor letting everyone know well in advance when the class rape discussions would be and informing students that, if they were uncomfortable with those topics either because they were survivors of assualt or had any other reason for not wanting to participate in those discussions, students could either speak with him privately and he would make sure not to call on them, or they could elect not to attend class that day and it wouldn’t count against them (this was generally true but he made sure that it was extra-special clear for those classes). Over-use is banning speakers entirely or expecting trigger warnings for every topic that comes up, even unexpectedly (such as if rape came up as a side topic in another class, I don’t think the professor should be required to trigger warning everything).

      Trigger warnings, to me, are a new form of social politeness that recognizes that talking about certain topics can be more harmful for some folks than others. But like all forms of manners, I think it goes both ways-I try to use them to be respectful of other feelings, but my hope would be that those requesting them should also be respectful that there’s not way to perfectly protect everyone from everything they find offensive or upsetting, and not think I’m an awful person for not getting it 100% right all the time. So I found Chicago’s blanket stance extremist, but I think it was a reaction to an extreme push from the other direction. Where’s the sensible middle ground when we need it?

      1. I don’t find Chicago to be extremist. I don’t like any top-down speech rules. I think that the safe spaces idea is especially bad at a university.

         Manners are manners. Trigger warnings / safe spaces are very different.

         I would prefer a school like Chicago lest anyone with strong viewpoints find themselves hounded out of school or with some sort of blemish on their record. If I had unpopular views, I wouldn’t want them not able to enter the public square of discourse, especially at a university. Where everything can be labled as divisive and shut down, knowledge suffers.

         I think when you have a full-on set of ideas confronting other ideas, unfettered, we learn. Otherwise, we kid ourselves.

      2. That’s how I feel, Aurora. In my ideal world, trigger warnings do not close down dialogue–they’re a flashing “alert, proceed with caution!” sign. I’ve struggled with disordered eating. I don’t go out of my way to avoid triggering material, and at this point I’m going to be fine either way, but it’s still helpful for me to see a TW flag so I can take a deep breath and prepare myself to encounter material that will be challenging for me mentally and emotionally.

         I do think universities have a responsibility to foster challenging discussions around important topics. And trigger warnings do not, in fact, preclude that. I was administering a discussion group last week around really hard material. As a heads-up, I said something like, “Be aware that other students might have varying experiences with the criminal justice system, and that topics relating to sexual assault might come up over the course of this discussion. Remember to be respectful to the other students and if you need to step out for a moment to collect yourself, please do.” How is that shutting down dialogue? That’s giving a group of developing young humans the tools to be kind to themselves and to each other.

         1. I think this is a very responsible and compassionate way to handle it. I also like the idea that by giving the warning, you make people who may not even realize that the material is triggering for some stop to think about it and hopefully be more sensitive in their remarks (e.g., by not making jokes about S.A.).

      3. So would r*pe not be on the test? I mean, I just feel like that could be taken sooo far. What about people who were abused as children? Or verbal abuse? Or when drunk driving comes up? Don’t you think a lawyer NEEDS to know about those things as just general being-a-lawyer knowledge?

         1. You can know about these things without having to hear other people’s /opinions/ about them. Like it or not, that’s what a lot of my law school discussions became: a platform for people who had no personal experience with Topic X to pontificate about their 100% correct opinions about the topic/how other people should handle the topic/what the law should be.

            At the risk of outing myself, I have a chronic illness and have very strong feelings about physician-assisted suicide. I know a lot about it- I’ve read the cases, I’ve done the research, I can make legal arguments for and against it. But I didn’t go to classes where I knew we would be discussing it after my 1L crim law class where we discussed it because I am very “out” about my chronic illness and my professor used me as the token-sick-person to talk about my feelings on PAS. My feelings at the time were (and are) deeply wrapped up in that I watched one of my close friends die an excruciating, suffocate-to-death death because PAS wasn’t an option for her. The professor pushed and pushed and pushed until I was in tears and told him “Stop. Ask someone else.”- and then others in my class threw in their opinions, which very obviously had nothing to do with the law and they had no personal experience with.

            PAS was going to be a discussion in three classes after that (health law classes) and I informed my professor each time that while I was willing to discuss the legal ramifications with them during office hours, I wasn’t willing to sit in class and listen to privileged law students blather on about how suicide “tears apart the fabric of society” and how PAS was horrific and only “weak” people chose it. Each of these professors knew that I knew what I was talking about even if I wasn’t willing to sit and listen to people who had no personal experience with it give their declarations of what is right/wrong. I could have written about it had it come up on the final. Knowing the legal confines of something and being involved in a class discussion are worlds apart.

            1. But that is a huge problem with the professor. He should be reprimanded. The school should control him. But I honestly don’t think that students should be able to opt out of any discussion that makes them uncomfortable based on other students’ opinions.

               For one thing, those blathering, privileged law students were never confronted with your opinion.

            2. But I don’t have the responsibility to be their sick person dictionary. Having a token person represent the entirety of a particular group of people is ridiculous. Something that sends me into a grieving tailspin for days shouldn’t be mandatory because other people can’t do their own damn research.

            3. I don’t think that we have rules for who gets to have opinions though. And a vigorous debate may move all of our needles a bit or inform. The remedy for speech you don’t like is more speech. Not shutting things down.

               At what point do my opinions on PAS count: if I’m a doctor, if I’m sick, if I have a sick relative, if I’m worried about euthanasia against a fragile person, if I’m worried about a slippery slope re euthanasia generally, if I’m an insurance company? And why should someone decide that for me? What if I’m undecided — won’t hearing as many points of view help?

               I like to think that we live in a world where we all get the microphone and yet we have to understand that we may be challenged on our views. Dishing it out is easy. Being open to critical challenging isn’t.

            4. To be clear: I’m not saying the conversation shouldn’t have happened. It should. I’m saying I’m not willing to be a part of it. I truly, truly don’t care about being the voice that educates a group of people on it; it’s too personal for me to have to explain to an entire class why I feel the way they do. I’ll recommend readings, or books, or even have a one-on-one conversation with a person, even if they disagree with me. But I know that I cannot handle- like, physically and emotionally cannot handle- a broad discussion about it with many people. I didn’t go into work that involved me advocating for or against it. It overwhelms me too much and reminds me too much of my best friend who I lost. Period.

         2. Nah, there are plenty of types of lawyers that would never need that info. Of course it Could be taken too far, but as with all things reasonable people can certainly come up with a reasonable standard that would help traumatized people avoid further trauma while also ensuring a quality, well-rounded education.

      4. THIS.

         I am a HUGE proponent of trigger warnings and safe spaces when they’re used correctly. The rape discussion you mentioned earlier is one such instance of correct use. The goal of trigger warnings isn’t to alert students to EVERYTHING that might be a trigger, but to alert students to commonly known triggers (e.g. sexual assault, IPV, racism, homophobia, gun violence, etc), and then to make allowances / exceptions if you KNOW that another topic is triggering to a specific student, or might have recently become triggering to many students (e.g. after a mass shooting).

         Many of the think pieces after U of Chicago’s statement were inane, and showed a complete misunderstanding (perhaps deliberate) of what trigger warnings and safe spaces actually ARE.

         NB: I am a survivor of IPV and sexual assault, and that’s the field in which I practice.

   5. I don’t know. I understand that universities should be academic spaces where controversial thoughts can be articulated but I kind of feel like Chicago’s statement is waaay too broad and comes out sounding like they don’t care at all about diversity or inclusiveness. For example, OP said that the situation where the crim law professor made rape jokes was “not included in this type of discussion” but I’m not sure why you say that. I can easily see a situation like that falling under this policy and the university telling a student who complains that crim law is not supposed to be a “safe space” so they can just deal with it.

      1. Because wouldn’t that constitute sexual harassment/creation of a hostile environment? If it wouldn’t, then I might rethink my position, but the intent of my original post was to address the trend of labeling broad ideas, books, and positions as totally harmful and off-limits on college campuses in the name of safe space.

         1. Well, I see a blanket statement saying “We don’t want safe spaces” as suggesting they’re not going to be very aggressive about dealing with harassment/hostile environments. Not an official statement that they’re ok with harassment of course, but kind of a 1960s ‘we’re going to turn the other cheek’ culture. I guess I just see the U of C’s statement as a pushback against political correctness (and it’s definitely been interpreted that way by many people online), and saying “there’s too much political correctness now” is often a soft way of saying you’d prefer to return to a bygone era with much more racism, sexism, etc.
            Maybe my opinion is colored by what I know about the U of C. A few friends went there and felt like the school was pretty horrible about dealing with harassment issues.

            1. PC is not the opposite of racism.
               PC is not the opposite of sexism.

               I work in a very PC environment that is nevertheless racist and sexist. It is very Emperor’s New Clothes. PC is just window dressing.

               The safe-space thing, I think, is taking something controversial and making one side of the argument off-limits. Then you basically have no argument. You have one hand clapping.

            2. AMENNNNNNNNN. THat’s exactly how I feel!!! My firm makes such a big deal about diversity and inclusion, supporting the right causes. etc. but when it comes to hiring diverse people . . . .

            3. I agree PC is not the opposite of racism or sexism and it is possible to be very, very PC while also being deeply racist and/or sexist. I’ve experienced that myself. But I think many of the current “anti-PC” crusaders (e.g., Trump and his supporters) are racist and sexist.

            4. I read in the WSJ lately that one woman said to her son that poor white people are the only group that people aren’t afraid to hate publicly. In a PC world, that is so, so true. Everyone else is damned with such low expectations (women leave when they get married!) or detested privately.

            5. I work in academia, and I will say that they are very big on diversity of everything EXCEPT IDEAS. And if you have the wrong ideas/political philosophy, it doesn’t matter what color or gender you are. The safe space idea has been used to shut down any ideas that aren’t exceptionally progressive, and to dis-invite speakers on both ends of the spectrum who’ve said anything that might be the least bit offensive to someone.

            6. I work in a very PC environment that is also very, very elitist. Like sniffing at a UVA grad as someone who had gone to a (said with a sneer) “state school.” True enough, but you know what they mean. You know they detest you. Their begrudging toleration is obvious. It is eye-popping how they treat subordinate staff, much less waitstaff.

            7. F*ck the haters, wahoo wa!

            8. PC is also code for killing a topic that needs to evolve, and if we don’t talk about it, it never does. It keeps some groups in their place: women, people with disabilities, etc.

         2. It seems like you are either being deliberately obtuse or don’t understand what a trigger warning is. It’s simply letting people know that the material to be dealt with could be traumatising for those who have been subject to the victimisation being discussed. That way they can make the best choices about how to manage the significant health issues.

   6. This is why I don’t ever want to teach, except maybe as a guest lecturer. I work in a very, very dry area of the law. And yet, I fear that if I taught, I’d encounter someone who would complain that perhaps I was too blunt, too controversial, too something. And that would be the end of my career and ability to support myself.

      Maybe it’s a worst-case scenario, but I read too many instances of academics saying things that I wouldn’t hesitate to say to my school-aged children (Halloween costumes?) and those things are all over the internet and are job-enders.

      Mere words. In the US. Are job-enders!

      1. I think that PC is everywhere (or is in the stuff that marketing and HR put out).

         Trigger warnings/safe spaces seem to be just a college thing. I think that maybe many STEM/professional degree teachers would rather just work in industry / law / medicine than deal with getting tripped up in this.

      2. If a trigger warning is given as emeralds has laid it out, great. But that is not what a couple of my close friends say is happening at their institutions of higher learning. There are certain administrators who wish to restrict professors from touching on certain subjects for fear of students going to the press or having to fire faculty if a student is offended by a POV they do not agree with. It’s terrible IMO. I do NOT, however, think that rape jokes or the like are ever appropriate. That’s not a different POV, that’s just wrong.

         Also, safe spaces don’t exist in the world in which I work (yet?). Adults are expected to deal with POVs and ideas that are different than theirs and that make them uncomfortable. It’s part of life and I think it should continue to be part of life. You don’t grow and learn and become a better person without being challenged on your beliefs and ideas IMO. I don’t expect everyone I cross paths with to think the same way I do and I expect and welcome differing opinions. I want to engage in these types of discussions. I don’t want the next generation growing up not being challenged on their thoughts. While I absolutely believe we should be respectful to each other and that racism and sexism, etc., are a real problem, and that we should appreciate that people come from different walks of life, I do not think that we should allow/encourage the stifling of different/uncomfortable viewpoints at our institutions of higher learning.

         I’m probably not saying this in a way that isn’t going to get me flamed, but oh well.

   7. Trigger warnings have a time and a place: to warn PTSD sufferers of material that may induce flashbacks. Making someone with PTSD suffer through a flashback is not productive or healthy for that student or anyone else around. So I do think trigger warnings (or really, just warnings!) should be standard for depictions of war violence and sexual assault, as vets and assault survivors are two of the most common types of PTSD sufferers. Others that may have PTSD from a rarer event should try to proactively warn the professor.

      However, the meaning of “trigger warning” has become really twisted in the past couple of years to mean “a warning that allows people to opt out of conversations that make them uncomfortable.” Being uncomfortable – even angry – is not the same as experiencing a flashback. You will not be prepared to be an adult in the real world if you insist on avoiding uncomfortable conversation. I do not support this type of “trigger warning.”

      I also think “safe spaces” have a time and a place. There should be safe spaces on campus – for instance, support groups where people going through similar experiences can share those experiences without judgment. Limits on what can be discussed in those spaces are appropriate. The classroom, however, should not be a space where you are protected from criticism or judgment or certain topics of discussion – it should be a place where people can exchange ideas freely.

      1. Yes. Yes. Yes. Trigger warnings should be for when a discussion may trigger flashbacks/dissociation/a violent or damaging response/etc. And those discussions should be planned for and noted ahead of time on the syllabus or otherwise so that people who may have those types of responses can prepare for them, either by not going or alerting the professor that they may need to step out/don’t want to be called on/won’t be in class, etc.
         Certain members of my law school took this WAY too far- a valued, amazing professor was torn to shreds in his evals (enough that he didn’t teach the class the next year, although it was his baby) because he didn’t stop a conversation about race when perspectives members of the class disagreed with were brought in by other members. I’d been in the class the year before and when differing (and objectively, statistically wrong0 perspectives were brought in, we didn’t scream “OPPRESSION! TRIGGER WARNINGS! MY DELICATE SENSITIVITIES ARE FOREVER DAMAGED!” We pointed out to the dude that brought them in that he was wrong for a whole host of reasons as a class. Our professor let it happen- we’re all adults, deal with adult things in adult ways, not by whining to administration.

         1. My undergrad had the opposite use of safe space. It was a safe space to offer and discuss all opinions without judgment. Which I thought was kind of ridiculous too because you can’t just turn a judgement switch in your brain on and off. If a classmate tried to contribute to the conversation and said something super racist in so doing, I’d probably still judge her subconsciously even if we were in the “judgment free zone.”

            I’m confused about how you know what perspectives are allowed in the current safe spaces and which perspectives aren’t. Does it just mean you can say “stop, I don’t feel safe?” I’m also concerned that those with the so called “wrong” view points will never hear why they are wrong in this kind of environment.

            1. Err, I think there was a misunderstanding here. Probably because I wasn’t clear. Apologies.
               Parts of law school took trigger warnings too far- way beyond not re-traumatizing folks who had related trauma and to a point where any unpopular opinion was said to be “oppressing minorities.” A professor got demolished in reviews and to administration because he didn’t stop the conversations after “offensive” viewpoints were raised; students complained to administration, saying that they felt oppressed, attacked, etc. No one spoke up in class to educate the people they disagreed with; they expected the professor to shut down the conversation and were outraged when he let it continue. These were, in large part, not POC. They were Social Justice Warriors in the derogatory sense of the term and they made it so that the professor no longer taught the class. It was incredibly problematic. They essentially wanted a space where only “safe,” nonprivileged, and not at all “harmful” opinions were allowed to be discussed.
               When I took the class from the same prof the year before, there was none of that- if someone said something offensive, they heard why they were wrong and the conversation continued. We didn’t complain to administration and we spoke up if something was said in class that needed to be expanded on or corrected. We got into heated discussions and everyone came out of it better- including the people who had been educated about why their views were an issue. These people are now some of the most outspoken proponents of things like prosecutorial discretion and racial justice in our class.

            2. Going back to safe spaces – let’s say you have a support group on campus for students struggling with depression. That support group should function as a place where such students can openly share their struggles without fearing that someone will tear them down. So I think the support group leader should have the right to, for instance, forbid criticism of students’ treatment decisions (like if one decided to go on antidepressants). By contrast, in a classroom environment, a discussion about overprescription of antidepressants might be perfectly appropriate and on-topic. The person on antidepressants should advocate for their views of hey disagree, but they should not excuse themselves from the discussion because it makes them feel uncomfortable.

      2. +1000. You stated my thoughts on this perfectly and much more eloquently.

   8. I’m with the OP. Google “Emory Trump Chalk” for the moment the “safe spaces” idea jumped the shark. I’m glad Chicago is doing what universities are supposed to do — exposing people to ideas for contemplation.

      1. Yes. I really don’t know if it is just my age but the very words “safe space” in the university context just sets my teeth on edge. The whole point of higher learning is to teach critical thinking and, in order to do so, one simply must be exposed to a whole gamut of ideas and opinions that may be contrary to what we believe. As a former university debater, I wholeheartedly subscribe to Camus’ notion of not agreeing with what someone says but defending their right to say it…anything less is censorship and that is exactly what is happening.
         TD,DR – special snowflake syndrome run amok.

         1. A lot of these responses are privelege run amok ….. PTSD is real and triggers can have fatal consequences. As for safe spaces, I can understand why students from minority groups might need somewhere to go where they didn’t have to justify their experiences and unique challenges (esp after reading the responses here). To see people here assume that what people are trying to escape different viewpoints and ignore how often students from minority groups put up with comments that ignore the systematic way their lives are different to other students because many of us have never had that experience is pretty dissapointing.

            1. If this is a response to the Emory post above, I vehemently disagree. Nothing screams privilege more than a bunch of tearful kids demanding that the entire university be free from temporary and student-posted declarations of support for a political candidate, even if that candidate is an uninformed, undereducated, disgusting, narcissistic, manipulative, racist, misogynistic, lying pig bully who lies. The unstated part of their position was that they paid 50k to be sheltered from that candidate and other things offensive and the very fact they had to see his name was a personal assault because they thought they had bought themselves a place where they were entitled to not be offended or inconvenienced by the opposition and the administration was obligated to now comply with their demands. That is privilege. Those kids also may have life experiences related to race, ethnicity, gender, etc that are regrettable and horrific and worth exploring and very good reasons to not vote for a man who has zero sensitivity to any of those experiences.

            2. I’ve had PTSD. I was in an accident that nearly killed me, and I was conscious for virtually the entire time that the medical team was trying to keep me alive; I suffered from flashbacks (triggered by some odd, very specific things relating to the accident) for years afterward. They could be mild and upsetting, or they could be debilitating. PTSD is real; it’s also not nearly as common as the frequency of trigger warnings would suggest, and you treat PTSD by desensitizing patients to their triggers, not by removing them. Like any other medical condition, a professor that knows that she has a student with PTSD should take steps to accommodate that, but those steps are not necessarily by allowing any student who is disturbed by a topic to opt out of conversation. They should be tailored to that specific student’s needs. Not liking something, finding something uncomfortable, being made angry by something – those are all different than the experience of a person with PTSD, and are part of the learning experience.

               Classrooms aren’t and shouldn’t be safe spaces, in most cases. That doesn’t mean safe spaces shouldn’t exist, but that’s not, in most cases, what education is.

   9. It was my understanding that Chicago let professors get away with ethical and moral indiscretions to attract top talent, no? Its how they stay a top university. I can think of a number of really questionable things professors have done but they publish big and attract the all mighty dollar. That said I think that Safe Zones etc are important because most undergrads dont have a grasp on logic or ethics and it results in their opinions being messy shambles of ideas strung together. If every first year had to learn logical structure (and abide by it) there would be far fewer religious, s*xist and r*cist rants in classrooms to offend people.

4. Anyone here lived in Paris, specifically the suburbs? I’ve been offered a job there but I don’t think I can afford city prices, even with a roommate.

   1. Yes to living in Paris, but not in the suburbs (I’ve lived in the 11eme, the 6eme and the 14eme).

      What is your budget? General area of your job?

   2. Lived in Paris and the suburbs, but for short periods of time and staying with a friend so no rent money involved.

5. My husband has moved out and filed for divorce. We have been married for 2 years and have a 1 year old. He doesn’t want to fight and has proposed that we share custody and alternate days, which we have been doing since he moved out. He paid half the rent for the few months remaining on our lease so I have some time to find a place of my own. Otherwise we both work and there are no significant assets to split. There was no infidelity, no abuse or anything like that and I have no objection to sharing custody or worry about his parenting abilities. I’m still reeling though. He filed because he said he couldn’t handle me micromanaging and mothering him. I am numb and upset at the same time if that makes any sense. Just needed to vent.

   1. ::Hug::

   2. I’m so, so sorry.

   3. I’m so sorry.

      1. So sorry. hugs!

         1. Thanks everyone

   4. Good luck and hugs. If you remarry, try to give your guy a little more space. This one felt micromanaged, rightly or wrongly, and it cost you big time.

      1. Hey good advice! I’m sure the OP appreciates it greatly and hasn’t spent any time considering what went wrong or engaging in self-recrimination. This is valuable insight that may not have occurred to her otherwise.

         1. +1 million. Ridiculous.

            1. And so so sorry, OP.

      2. Troll troll troll. Come on, moderation!

         1. I think the latest trolls, after reading the moderation information, are using existing commenters usual handles. I spend too much time here so I recognize MsJD as a non-troll but her last couple of comments have been all troll. I don’t think they are from the usual poster.

            1. I disagree. Besides you also have just broken up with your man so you’re probably too raw to be objective

               Hugs to you! I hope you land another man soon.

            2. Ugh, Carole, your comments in this thread have been gross and sexist.

         2. Yup. Carole, MsJD and Rachel are likely all the same person I think. These three all made bizarre comments in the first thread too.

      3. ……………are you her guy?? WTF.

      4. Seriously? This really isn’t the time or place to make this sort of comment.

      5. Stop it.

         1. Sorry, that was for the you know what (starts with a T) above, in case not clear.

   5. My sympathies. I will say that the alternate days custody thing may be an issue. My cousin originally had that sort of agreement, and it was fine when his son was younger, but turned into an absolute nightmare when he was older and started school and other activities. Late night transitions were not good for the son. It made logistics a nightmare, and turned what was rather amicable into a disaster. I wish you the best.

      1. Thank you for your concern for pointing this out. When I say alternating days, I don’t mean every day. What have been doing is one of us custody for a week and we switch on Sunday afternoons, or if the whole week doesn’t work we will switch on Wednesday or Thursday and then again on Sunday. He is in daycare full time and we have a part time nanny, so far it has worked. I will definitely keep what you have said in mind.

6. Reposting because yesterday’s Coffee Break didn’t get a lot of love…
   I’m burning out a little at a new job (1 year in – but I have a vacation coming up soon). We’ve been unusually busy recently. My question is that when I was in BigLaw and needed some distance from the office, I could work at home easily, and even though I was still working, it was great for my mental health. My job now does not have a work from home culture at all. I do get sick days, but I’m so busy I can’t imagine taking one unless I was really, actually sick. Anyone have any advice?

   1. I find taking breaks out of the office, as opposed to reading the internet like I usually do, is surprisingly refreshing. Walk around the block. Go buy coffee instead of getting it from the office Keurig. Take an actual lunch break if you can.

      I’ve also been trying to get up earlier in the morning to give myself some more me time. Even 20 minutes to just kind of relax on the couch makes me feel a bit more positive about my day.

7. Frivolous fashion question: Do you consider olive to be a true neutral? Or is it more of an earth tone that flatters mostly warmer skin tones? Do you have a lot of it in your wardrobe/how versatile do you find it?

   1. Yes it’s a neutral to me, the way blue jeans are. I have a cool skin tone, fyi. I have olive green jackets and pants. It’s a shade that looks great with the other neutrals in my closet (black, cream, grey) but I love it with cobalt blue and pink too.

      1. Good to know! I normally stay away from earthy tones so I’m glad to hear that cooler toned people can enjoy it too!

   2. I use olive as a true neutral. I only have a couple olive pieces and I wear them mostly in the summer, but I find myself reaching for them constantly and having to consciously refrain from wearing my olive pants more than once a week. I wear it with pinks, oranges, dark reds, bright blues, blacks, blues, navies, whites, camels, grays, and floral patterns – i.e. pretty much all the tops I have in my closet. I don’t like olive as much with other greens, but that’s about it. I was sorely tempted to get a pair of olive heels in the Nordstrom Anniversary Sale and resisted, but may succumb the next time around. For reference, I’m a somewhat yellowish redhead so I guess I have a warm skin tone, but I think olive looks great on most everyone.

      1. Link to heels?

         1. Here you go – they’re the Sam Edelman Tonia heel. I love the subtle spike and I think they look darling in olive! Two other women in my office got them in nude and love them.

            http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/sam-edelman-tonia-spike-rand-pointy-toe-pump-women/4322861?origin=category-personalizedsort&fashioncolor=PORT%20WINE%20SUEDE

            1. Thanks!

   3. I like olive as a neutral that is way better than khaki. I’d never wear it near my face though — my skin is pretty ruddy and I need more of a contrast. But it is a million times better than khaki. I have a lot of Althelta olive bottoms and no khaki pants/shorts/skirts and it’s nice to have a little contrast with my skin, which I didn’t get with khaki.

      1. Ugh. Khaki. I’m with you. I also like the idea of a darker, camel color, but I can’t seem to make it work.

   4. I love olive, my eyes are a similar shade and I find it super flattering. However, I don’t think it is a neutral in that it goes with everything like navy or black would. I find it pairs well with other neutrals (especially cream!) and pastels (light blue in particular) but not jewel tones.

      1. Same! I love wearing an olive top or dress because my eyes look awesome when I do. It’s one of the few things that makes me feel very vain (in a silly way). But I do have trouble matching olive with the other colors I like to wear (jewel tones).

   5. I am black so Olive is a neutral for me (when Beige is not). I must have Olive in any seasonal item:
      My rainy day trench coat is olive, my summer linen shirt and dress too, my silk dress for spring is olive.
      Ideally, I would get even more pieces in this color as I find it unbelievably flattering and a welcome change form Gray.

   6. Yes–I have very cool tones and green eyes, and it’s very flattering

8. Question for the hive – has anyone tried the Daily Harvest smoothie service? I got my first box and while I love the idea and am willing to pay something extra for the convenience, the cost just feels extravagant for more than a one-off or very occasional thing. Would love to hear other folks’ thoughts.

   1. Caveat that I have not used their service. $7-8 for a smoothie is less expensive than buying them, at least in my area, but still a fair bit more expensive than making them on my own. But then again, I have the time and the inclination to experiment with smoothie combos. I make my own smoothie packs and pull them out of the freezer each morning, and I don’t find it onerous at all. That said, I can see the service being fun as a one-off, like you said, for inspiration, or because I know that I’m going to be super busy and want to have at least one healthy food item for the day.

      1. how do you store them? zip locs? I am trying to do the same so I can also get my portions under the control and waste less food.

         1. Yep, freezer bags. Not the most environmentally friendly option, but I do rinse them out and re-use them for as long as I can. I don’t have room in my freezer for tupperware.

         2. I make my own freezer bags for smoothies too.

            I tend toward banana-berry (frozen) plus add OJ-plain yogurt if it’s off season.

            If it’s summer, I do frozen peach, mango, strawberry, spinach, ginger and mint + minimum OJ/water.

            I also do peach, cinnamon, plain yogurt, spinach, splash of milk.

            I have learned that if you add mint or ginger or dates, your smoothies become super-delish and seem way fancier than they are!

      2. I’ve done the smoothie ingredients in freezer bags thing, but for some reason can never get the balance of ingredients and flavors quite right. I feel like the ones I make are always bland and never taste quite as good as the ones I buy. The only thing that’s a go-to for me is frozen banana with peanut butter and chocolate almond milk, but I love the wider variety of flavors Daily Harvest has. Maybe I just need to experiment more?

         1. If you love Daily Harvest and want to keep using them, do it! Daily Harvest has people on staff who spend many hours taste testing smoothie combos so I’m sure they’re delicious. What I would personally do is take inspiration from the smoothies that I’ve really liked from them, and try to recreate them at home and keep adjusting the balance until I got it where I wanted it. Something that I have noticed is that often my homemade smoothies don’t really taste sweet enough (despite all the fruit) so adding about 1 tsp of agave really helped.

         2. Get thee to Pinterest! Just a quick “smoothie recipe” search is going to get you pretty far. A couple of pantry standbys like canned pumpkin, cacao nibs, ground flax seed (for your freezer), frozen berries (whatever’s on sale). I keep a gallon bag of 1/2 banana’s in my freezer (peeled) from fresh ones that are getting brown. Also, don’t be afraid of a handful of spinach. So yummy and gets lots of good stuff in your smoothie. To avoid brown, stick in the same color family, and if you add green, just make it a chocolate or raspberry one.

   2. I can’t afford it right now, but looking over their site, it dawned on me that maybe I should prep a week of smoothies on sunday or something, because right now i am just dumping whatever i have in my freezer/fridge and hoping for the best (sometimes I get weird brown looking smoothies as a result). I wonder what the most space/cost/time effective way to do that would be. costco??

      1. I buy a lot of frozen fruit and portion them out in freezer bags. You can add greens to your freezer bag too (like spinach). In the morning I toss one of the bags in the blender, add liquid/anything else, and am all set.

         If I wanted to do something like add oats or chia seeds to my smoothie, I like to do things like soak them overnight in the fridge. I’m not sure how long soaked oats will last in the fridge, but I’ve made enough soaked chia seeds for 4 days of smoothies and it’s kept just fine. I usually do that on a Sunday.

         That strawberry, peach, oat smoothie on their website looks really delicious. I might have to attempt something like that this weekend.

      2. I make smoothie packs and get my ingredients (fresh spinach, bananas, frozen berries) from Trader Joes. Best price/quality balance for me.

         1. +1. And be careful with cheap frozen veg – ripe fruit and veg are better.

            1. What is there to be careful with, with respect to frozen fruits and vegetables? I haven’t heard this one.

            2. Maybe lysteria. But I always use frozen fruits for my smoothes–they freeze them right when they’re ripe, so I think they’re better quality than fresh.

            3. Yep. Frozen vegetables are meant to be cooked before eating. They could contain harmful bacteria that are destroyed by cooking.

9. Does anyone have advice for managing pelvic pain at the onset of your period? I’m hoping to be more proactive than OTC pain meds but less than BCP or hysterectomy.

   Answers to FAQ: This is a relatively new symptom to me, likely related to my latest pregnancy. I’m not interested in BCP or surgery because I didn’t like BCP and surgery is, well, surgery – and we already have a permanent BP method. I’ve spoken with my very capable doctor but I’m asking here because I’ve received helpful advice in the past (such as life-changing prevention for cold sores that I’d never heard about despite seeing multiple capable doctors for recurrent cold sores).

   1. Please share the life-changing cold sore advice. Thanks! & Unfortunately nothing earth shattering to report for the pain.

      1. Daily dose of acycolvir for me, works WONDERS. I constantly had cold sores. Mostly annoying, until my already messed up immune system decided to go completely wonky whenever I got a cold sore, and I’d break out in hives everywhere (include inside my mouth and eyes).

         1. Ack, acyclovir. I can spell my medications!

      2. Lysine supplements! Some people here pointed out the link to amino acid imbalance. I had linked my cold sores to chocolate, so it all made sense then. It’s been a couple of months and I’ve been able to eat whatever I want, sore-free :)

      3. Vitamin B12 pills on a semi-regular basis worked wonders for me.

   2. Advil paired with damp heat. I have one of those microwavable heat wraps that are filled with rice. When you heat it, it gives off a damp heat that is very soothing to me when I’m having any type of muscle issues. I think the brand is Sunny Bay, but I’m sure anything like that would work. I had a birth control snafu that made me have a period for 3 weeks out of 4, and I relied on heat on my tummy to keep me upright some days.

      Also I’m not sure if you are ruling out ALL kinds of hormonal birth control or just BCPs, but I’m now on the shot and don’t have a period at all. It’s glorious!

   3. Sorry, I think the only things that will truly work are Ibuprofen (up to 800mg) some type of birth control pill (if you didn’t like the one you took, you might like another – there are lots and lots of different pills). You can try exercise or losing or gaining weight, which may help or may not help.

      1. And birth control, not that you are interested, doesn’t have to be a pill. It could be an IUD or something.

   4. I know you said beyond OTC meds but this does help – the timing of the OTC meds. My dr. told me to take Alleve (naproxen) when I expected my horrible severe cramps. Something about it blocking the pain sensors in your brain. I have bad endometriosis so I had horrible cramps (ended up having surgery which made them better, and taking the pill which made them better, but still have 1 day a month of pain). I do think the naproxen timing thing works. I take 3 of the big liquid gels but realize this is not for everyone because it can irritate your stomach. You can also get it in a prescription form. Also it is rather counterintuitive because its the last thing I feel like doing but moderate exercise (brisk walk for me) seems to help too.

      1. Edit – take Alleve when I think the cramps are coming, before they are actually here, vs. waiting until I feel pain. Miss edit function.

         1. +1 to staying ahead of the pain. This is what I’ve been told any time I’ve needed to take real pain pills like after surgery or something. If you wait til you’re already in severe pain it’s too late.

            1. This goes for nausea, too. It’s much harder to knock pain or nausea out than it is to prevent it.

      2. Another +1 to naproxen. If you’re outside the U.S., ask your doctor about different names for it. I’ve seen it called Anaprox, Naprogesic, etc. As others have said, it works best taking it the day before your period comes, but it will generally work within 30-40min of the pain starting as well, just not as effectively.

   5. First, try to notice if it is generalized cramping or if it is related to, for example, having a bowel movement or feels more like a slicing sensation. I developed severe endometriosis after my last pregnancy – very rare apparently bc usually endometriosis leads to infertility which I did not have. However, the first day or two of each cycle is almost unbearable…. I had surgery to remove the worst adhesions last year, and now, I usually need one or two high power pain killers (think hydrocodone) on day one of the cycle. The rest of the cycle I can manage with advil and rest. I’ve also notice my diet in the month preceding affects how bad it is. Less red meat and processed food seems to help. It may not be endo for you, but be aware it could be more than “just cramps”.

      1. Thanks for the heads up, but my doc and I don’t think it’s anything serious.

         It’s also not cramps – it’s true pelvic pain. It feels like I rode 50 miles on a new bike seat. It hurts to stand. My understanding is that it’s related to tissue changes (ie, uterine tissue growing in other areas) that swell and release. Which make sense to me, since that would be like an internal bruise, and that’s how I would describe the feeling.

         1. How recent was your most recent pregnancy? So many different things happen and it’s so hard to get back to normal from the physical movements of organs to the actual menstruating.

            Also, I often think of taking vitamins as witchcraft and hocus pocus, but magnesium is a huge thing for me during PMS. I crave chocolate, but a handful of cacao nibs can stave that off with no sugar. You might want to try taking a supplement and seeing if that helps over a few months? Don’t quote me on it, though.

            1. Thank you. Chocolate is a huge craving for me during PMS – normally I’m kind of ‘meh’ on it so I don’t even have to chart because I know it’s coming when I’m scrounging the house for anything with cocoa in it – so I’ll definitely try magnesium. Even if it doesn’t help the pain, it could help keep calories down, lol.

               I’m ~18 mo out from last pregnancy (third). I’ve had ~8 periods or so since delivery. The first periods are always a wild ride at first, but everything else has leveled out except for this. Predictable length and otherwise my normal signs and symptoms.

         2. Duh, just realized that what my doc described sounds like endometriosis. My pain isn’t horrible and I’m done having kids, so I’m guessing that’s why she didn’t think it was anything serious. I’m reading a bit now, and I’m wondering if it’s the placement of my pain. It’s low, not near ovaries. Hmm… Something for me to think about. Maybe I should get a second opinion. Adhesions don’t sound like a good thing.

   6. Some yoga poses are really helpful for me.

   7. Seek out a physical therapist who is a pelvic floor specialist. She would have a lot of good ideas on how to beat manage and/or reduce the pain. Mine is a miracle worker!

      1. I second the physical therapist who specializes in pelvic floor pain. Ice and/or heat right down there can help. So can yoga and stretching. Also, as simple as this sounds, don’t cross your legs. It can make a huge difference.

10. I left my old, toxic firm a while ago and I’m loving my new gig. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to bring the junior associate I was training. I adore her and I felt and still feel badly leaving her behind. I asked everyone I had a good relationship with at my old firm to look after her before I left. I also told her (and continue to assure her) that she can call me any time with (non-privileged) questions and I continue to include her in my networking efforts. Every time I meet up with her, she tells me things are getting worse and worse. The people I’d hoped would have her back don’t, and the people who were awful to me are being worse to her. I seriously want to tell off the lot of them. I know I can’t do that but I’m just so angry for her and I’m angry that I’m now so powerless to help her. At least before I could deflect some of the worst abuse from her. Is there anything else I can do to support her?

    1. Encourage her in her job search, be an amazing reference, and think of her when opportunities come up. really all you can do I think- this is her learning experience too

    2. You can’t do anything to help her at that firm. Even if you can’t bring her into your firm, are you encouraging her to look for other jobs? Or are you giving her the impression that she should wait it out until she can come work for your firm? Any recruiters you could introduce her to? Any contacts at other firms where you could reach out and say — hey I have this awesome junior who needs a new situation, do you know anyone who is hiring?

    3. Keep up the networking efforts to give her an out. It sounds like they may view her as your protege and they are taking out your departure on her. Nothing to feel guilty about but would like be much appreciated if you helped her find a path out.

    4. Get your new firm to hire her.

       1. Better yet, get one of your clients to hire her.

    5. Get her a job where you work now? Short of that, make as many introductions as you can to help her network.

    6. Invite her whenever you go to a thing – CLE, bar conference, fundraiser – and introduce her to people. Write am article together. Suggest her as a speaker for a panel or as a member of a board. Reach out and make plans with her monthly or just pick up the phone and say hi. It’s really good of you to be this thoughtful and hopefully you can help her get out

11. I am a commuter and I am sick of using my OMG to carry my gym stuff to and from the train and work. It digs into my shoulder and affects my posture. I need a backpack.

    I want something that will hold sneakers and gym clothes, no toiletries, and that I also could use for a laptop when I travel.

    I like the Tumi nylon bags with gold hardware but am not sure I want to spend $375. Marc Jacobs makes a similar one that’s cheaper, but the reviews indicate it’s cheap/flimsy and not worth the $$$$. Does anyone else have suggestions for something stylish and durable? No specific budget, though I would prefer around $200 max.

    1. https://www.knomobags.com/usa/beauchamp-black-14-backpack.html

       1. Beautiful!

       2. Yes!

          1. I’m the Anon who linked to this, and I’ll add that I have this in the briefcase version and the quality is super, super good.

    2. If you like the Cath Kidston look she does backpacks that are very well reviewed. May not be what you want though.

    3. LLL has a backpack especially for workouts and with a laptop sleeve in the back. I’ve seen it in store and the reviews sound good: http://shop.lululemon.com/p/bags/All-Day-Backpack/_/prod1360011?rcnt=9&N=8bt&cnt=26&color=LW9MBAS_0001

       1. Also a great one!

    4. I had exactly the same issue. Loved my OMG but it was killing my shoulder. I got this backpack: http://www.aersf.com/fit-pack/ and really like it.

       It fits my gym clothes and shoes, has a separate compartment for my laptop and is simple and professional looking.

    5. I am in the same boat; I just ordered The North Face Recon https://www.thenorthface.com/shop/equipment-backpacks-womens-backpacks/womens-recon?variationId=PLP . The NF backpacks seems very “gear-like”, and I prefer the look of these suggestions.

12. Can someone please recommend some jeans that are NOT jeggings? I have some Jcrew matchstick jeans from 7 years ago that I LOVE. I went to the store yesterday to get new ones and HATED every single pair I tried on. They’re all so stretchy and not what I want from jeans. Please help!

    1. I love my AG’s but they’re really thin denim. I just ordered a couple of the JAG pull ons that people love, and unfortunately they didnt work for me. My favorite Matchstick jeans came from J Crew Factory, not the mall store, so you might try that for something a little different. They tend to have a completely different inventory.

       1. Sorry I should have clarified, my faves are from the factory store and that’s where I went yesterday. Maybe I should try the mall store though. The new factory ones are nothing like my old.

          1. I’ve had terrible luck with Matchstick from the real store. I’ve had three pairs where my thighs have rubbed holes just below the cr0tch. Super annoying.

    2. The same thing drives me up the wall. 7 for all mankind has a pair that I like that is more denim-y. They are currently in the 7 stores as well as at Saks.

    3. Madewell! They have some great jeans and a few have no stretch at all (although I prefer those that have some give)

       1. +1 to madewell!

13. I’m having surgery in a couple of weeks for a TTC-related procedure. I’ll be out of the office for 3-4 days, and absolutely unreachable/unplugged for probably 2 or 3 of them.

    I’m in a small office with deal/project-oriented work. Nearly all men. We are close by nature of office size and work type. They’ll be generally concerned for me. Also, they need to know it’s “serious”, being surgery, and not that I’m “just” out with a cold or something else. If I lied to say it was a vacation, I’d still be plugged in. What do I tell them? Some sort of vague abdominal surgery?

    PS: I know I don’t HAVE to tell them anything, but I am choosing to, for my own protection from emails/calls/deadlines. Just not sure what that should be.

    1. “I will be having minor surgery and will need to be unplugged for 2-3 days during my recovery.”

       People will ask, Is everything OK?, and you’ll say something like, Yes I’ll be fine this just needs to get taken care of now so thank you for understanding.

       1. +1, been there, done that

    2. In a similar situation I told my office I was having a cyst removed. It was enough info that I didn’t get the follow up questions I was hoping to avoid, and not obviously TTC related. YMMV though.

    3. If you’re close I can see how it’d be weird to not say anything or say it’s a vacation — bc then if you get emails/calls and are totally out of it/can’t handle — they’ll know you lied. Depending on your office that could lead to people being irritated that you were not reachable and didn’t make it known or concerned or both. If it’s all men — can’t you just say — gyn surgery? I don’t know too many men who’d want to ask ANY questions after you said that but if’ there’s someone who does — you can then say — it’s obviously of a personal nature so I’d rather not get into it and I feel like anyone else hearing that conversation first or second hand would get it and would think the asker was being overly pushy wanting to know about your gyn health.

    4. I am close with my boss/colleagues and they too would be genuinely concerned, so I would tell them I am having surgery/medical procedure and that I would be unreachable for X number of days. If they ask for specifics about the surgery, you can tell them you don’t feel comfortable talking about the details and hope they respect that. In my own situation, I would tell my boss more specifics and ask him to keep them to himself. And he would. Again though, we are close and everyone is super supportive here, so YMMV.

       1. My grammar is pretty awful today, sorry y’all!

    5. “I’m having minor surgery and I’ll be unreachable for X days and out of the office for Y days.” I don’t see why you’d volunteer info about what kind of surgery, even if it wasn’t TTC-related.

       1. It shouldn’t be this way but sometimes well-intending or nosy people ask follow up questions so heading them off with additional info that clues them into the fact that maybe they don’t want to ask more questions can be a good idea. “Minor surgery” just breeds speculation among the nosy or unnecessary worry among the anxious or genuinely concerned and that draws extra attention to the thing you just want everyone to acknowledge and forget!

    6. A support staffer was out for several weeks because of a surgery — not at all TTC related. She is generally private. A partner asked another staff member — out of genuine concern, not just nosiness — what the issue was. Honestly, I think he was thinking, “is it cancer?” The other staff member told him she thought it was a female issue. It was like, “ok, that’s all I need to know.”

       If you want to leak some general info that way, it might take the pressure off you? I don’t think most men think TTC for surgery anyway.

14. Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t stand the cold shoulder thing. If the model’s b00bs look droopy, why would I think mine would look better?

    If I want to show my shoulders, I’ll wear something strapless or off the shoulder. Go big or go home.

    1. It is not just you. With a proper strapless bra you will look great. Never be ashamed to flaunt your assets. In 30 years, you will always have pictures to look back on and say I can’t believe those were mine!

    2. Totally agree!

15. Ok ladies here goes… I have an office crush. We met briefly during training and got along well and I recently ran into him and we reconnected. He works on my floor but in a different group. He’s friendly and chatty but nothing so overtly flirty (which I’m glad because I don’t want anyone to look weirdly at our conversations). That being said, I keep getting this vibe he likes me…

    We work very long hours so I’ve definitely see/heard of people dating/marrying people they’ve met in our group. Fwiw as I said above, this guy is not in my specific group. And right now I’m not sure I will be at this firm long-term anyway.

    However I really want to be very careful. The good news is I’m a pretty cautious dater to begin with so I’m not worried that I would rush into anything I regret. I really just want to get to know this guy better. So I’m trying to approach this by thinking of him as a potential friend in another group. It’s tough though and I’m just wondering if anyone had some advice.

    Again I know office dating is not ideal, but he’s a bit hard to resist right now.

    1. I also want to add that we have an office culture that mixes a lot of work and personal/social (probably because of the long hours and tons of people my age).

    2. FWIW, I met my spouse at work. We were very G-rated for our first few dates (off-campus lunch dates, dates to play tennis, a date to play golf) very, very G-rated. I wanted to see if we clicked and if we could each deal with things before doing anything else.

       We worked together for a few years after we got married.

       It *can* be OK, but I deliberated avoided dating co-workers when I was younger and was probably paranoid. Approach with caution and like you’re in a fishbowl, but go for it!

       1. Thank you anon! I appreciate the advice. I love the g rated dates. Any suggestions on how to transition to hanging out outside of work? I’d like to get lunch or coffee but in the “fishbowl” I’m so worried about coming on too strong.

          1. If you are still here:

             Have an extra ticket to something fun and say “I’ve got an extra ticket to X — can you come?” It’s date-ish. Even if he can’t go, you’ve started a convo.

             I had legit extra tickets to a sports game and asked. He couldn’t go, but it started us talking. 2 kids and a minivan later, here we are.

             1. I also said at some point, “I usually never date people I work with” and he hadn’t either. We didn’t have the same job, which helped. I think we wanted to test the waters before diving in and make sure that if it wasn’t working or likely to or there wasn’t a spark, there wouldn’t be any bunny boiling.

    3. Attempt to befriend him and see how it goes. I’d start with asking him if he’s going to happy hour.

    4. I will be following this. Like Anon above, my office crush and I have had a few G-rated dates. If things are going to escalate, that will happen soon-ish. I think of myself as a completely different person at work vs. not at work, and so I have genuine concerns about my ability to relax in a relationship with a colleague (though we do not work together directly). Especially during intimacy, as a highly sexual person.

       1. Like I asked anon above, very curious how you transitioned to hanging out outside the office?

          No advice on my end of course, but I do have the same concerns. Although I think it would be cool to date someone who really understands what you do.

16. So my husband called me today because he went to get his annual eye exam…and he has cataracts?! He’s 32. The eye doc said its really unusual unless he had been on steroids or had some other prolonged exposure to various things, none of which he has.

    Any of you started to develop them under, idk, 5o?! The only people I know that have even early stage cataracts are 60++

    1. A friend of mine was born with cataracts and actually just had them removed at at 28. His was a condition he has know about for years and years though – they just got to be so bad that surgery was required. Until just last year, he hardly noticed anything, but night driving became more difficult, thus the reason for surgery.

    2. Yes! My eye doctor first noticed them in me several years ago (I’m now mid-30s). I had them in both eyes and a couple years ago, the vision got bad enough in my right eye that I had to have that one removed. I still have the cataract in my left eye and we’re monitoring my vision every 6 months until I have to get it taken out as well (probably in the next few years). I also saw a ton of different specialists while picking a surgeon, and none of them had a solid answer as to why I developed them so young (I also wasn’t in a car accident/had head trauma or any of the usual suspects). “Bad genes / bad luck!” is what one of them said. No one in my family that I know of had cataracts before age 60+ either. I was nervous about the surgery but it was really quick, recovery didn’t take that long, and the vision afterwards was amazing (I call it my bionic eye now haha). I’m also very myopic/nearsighted in both eyes, so there were some additional different considerations when it came to the actual surgery/choice of lens, especially since I didn’t want to do both eyes at once if not necessary. The situation is rare but it will be OK!

    3. Yeah, you can be born with them or develop them early for any number of reasons. I’ve had some harmless ones since I was a kid, presumably because of heavy use of asthma meds. They’re not bad enough now, but I anticipate needing to have them removed at some point if they get worse.

17. I’m the poster from a week or two ago whose mother had an unexpected heart attack. She confided to me that she feels sometimes feels rather helpless and it got me thinking about getting better informed about power of attorney/conservatorship/other legal options. I know I’ll eventually need to meet with a lawyer if we proceed, but can someone point me in the right direction of where to start looking into what kind of options are available to help her?

    1. Go to an attorney who specializes in estate planning. I just did this as part of the wedding preparations and OMG. With a lawyer who knows what he’s doing it was a total piece of cake and gave me so much peace of mind! Totally worth the money!

       1. Also, hugs to you and your mom!

    2. Thanks- I’m not actually worried that bell lose his vision (maybe I should be?) but just wondering what if anything might have caused it. He’s gotten his eyes checked every 1-2 years forever (starts with glasses at 6…) and they just appeared now.

       1. Oops, that goes above

18. I met a woman in our first year of college and shared a dorm. We became best friends. She was an investment banker and so was her husband. I work in biglaw so neither of us had much of a social life but we did talk and get together sometimes. It was nice to have a friend who was also a professional women and in the same stage of life as me.

    A while back they left NYC and went to live in Wisconsin, where their families live and where they lived before they came to NYC for college. She confided in me that they were unhappy because they would go weeks without seeing each other and their whole lives were work and sleep and they were paying thousands of dollars for an apartment they barely lived in and had outsourced their whole lives (cleaning, cooking, driving, dry cleaning etc.) to other people who they paid. She found out she was pregnant and realized they would have to hire a full time nanny and neither of them would ever seen their baby and nothing would change. They decided to quit their jobs and move back home. They paid off all their debts and sold everything. They didn’t have money banked afterward so they have to work. They live in an old farmhouse now. Her husband does landscaping and outdoor work in the summer and will do snow removal in the winter. She stays home with their son and helps out various family members on their farms.

    I have talked to her on the phone and on Skype and I know things aren’t always what they seem but she looks and sounds so much happier and healthier and so does her husband. She is pregnant again and absolutely glowing. I am happy for her if she is happy but at the same time I miss my friend and it sucks that I have no one to talk to anymore who can relate to what’s going on with me. I realize it’s petty for me to be upset and that it’s completely my own issue. /Vent over.

    1. Wow. I know people who talk about making those kinds of life changes in both NYC finance and biglaw, but don’t know anyone who has actually done it to that extent. Meaning I know people who have left the law firm life that you’re describing and moved to Wisconsin but it’s bc one spouse got a job in Wisconsin as in-house counsel at GE Healthcare which is out there — so a pretty significant opportunity; and the other spouse either stayed home did something they always wanted to do like start a business. similarly I’ve seen people move back to hometowns and pick up jobs still in finance or business but typically in the finance department of some manufacturing company in town or in some business department of a university or health system in the area. I don’t know anyone who has moved so their husband -the investment banker – can be doing landscaping and snow removal for a living. I wonder how long this will last until they miss having some sort of professional life. I foresee at least the husband picking up a professional job in the next few years. Right now they may just be on the high of — OMG, it’s 10 pm on a Thursday night and I AM NOT in the office!!

       1. Eh, I have a friend that moved to Idaho. She and her husband worked remotely for a year, then she quit to SAH and he quit to do a start up. Then they bought a brewery as a side biz. They are on kid 4 and won’t go back to NYC/finance ever.

          1. Exactly…why will they go back to NYC if they are happy wherever they are..

       2. I read this as the husband will be DIYing the snow and gras (vs hiring out), not that that’s how the family will earn income. Interesting.

          1. Her husband works for a company that does landscaping and outdoor stuff in the summer and snow removal in the winter. He’s the main breadwinner. She is mostly staying home with their son but helps out various family members on running their farms and with farm stuff and she gets a bit of money from that. But his income is their main one and she does the farm stuff for something to do and because the farmer’s could always use the help.

             1. Amazing

       3. Yay! Open Thread’s! I LOVE open thread’s and apoligize for being late, again, b/c of my mom’s bunion’s. I had to cancell my plans with Myrna b/c of mom’s bunion’s and dad’s Interenet service, which was suspended b/c he switched credit card’s and FIOS did not get their money on time from him for over 2 month’s. I think FIOS is great but if you do NOT pay, they can suspend service, even if it is a mistake! FOOEY!

          As for the OP, I wish I were her. She and her husband had the guts to cut way from NYC and the pressure’s we face as Urban profesionals. If onley I could find a man to marry and take me away from NYC, I would even go to Wisconsin like they did. I once went to Wisconsin with Dad and it was nice. It is on a big lake and pretty in the summer.

    2. I love this story – good for her. Her life sounded absolutely miserable in NYC and if she seems so much happier now, then that’s great. Life’s too short. You can still be friends with her in a new way (and have support if you ever go down a similar path), but in the meantime, there are still plenty of women in big corporate jobs who are probably looking for like-minded women to relate to.

    3. I live in the bay area with my husband and two kids. We work long hours and outsource lots. We tend not to work weekends very often, but our weekends are very busy with kid activities and all the stuff we can’t get to during the week.

       We have the same dream of escaping the rat race and living in the country – I even have a place in mind, we vacation there two separate weeks per year via house rental. However, our kids are well adjusted and doing really well friend-wise and school-wise here, and that’s a difficult thing to consider playing around with because it could go very, very badly if we were to change it up, particularly since they are in their vulnerable early teenage years.

       That said, I also think we’re idealizing that life. It’s nice to visit but there’s part of me that says it would drive me crazy to not have the disposable income we have, to not have the restaurant, entertainment and cultural choices we have, and mostly – it would be very difficult to live in a community that is less open-minded than we’re used to here. (I’m not basing that comment on nothing – I’ve experienced some very bigoted comments when we’re vacationing in our favorite out-in-the-country spot.)

       There’s give and take in every situation. Your friend’s life may not be as perfect and fulfilling as it looks. She has a lot invested in being right about her decision, so I’m sure she’s not showing you the dark underbelly, so to speak.

19. The consignment store completely destroyed a new with tags item I brought in a few days ago. I know I have no recourse since I signed the liability waiver. But it is still such a shitty thing to do to a customer. It makes me ragey and sad. End rant

    1. What happened to it? I’m sorry, I’d be really frustrated too.

       1. Make up on the front that they ‘missed’ during the inspection and somehow only noticed a week later. But I dont wear make up and the item was NWT. So someone be it a customer or staff tried it on and got their orange foundation all over it.

20. I was on thredup and was distracted while shopping so I wasn’t fully paying attention to a couple of items I added to my cart. I received my package. The description is pullover sweater, but it is only 10 inches long, and it has no arms or holes for sleeves. If it hadn’t said sweater, I would have thought it is a cashmere mini skirt. I’m fashion impaired; is this a piece I layer under other tops for warmth/more color, or is this just something mislabeled? I had a friend tell me she’d seen these half shirt/sweater things that people layer under cardigans to look as if they are wearing a sweater without adding bulk to the top. So confused.

    1. Is it a sweater sleeveless top?

21. Anybody do the mason jar salads, or something similar? I saw them on pinterest and am curious about them. I’m looking for easy healthy lunches, but I often don’t have a 30 minute sit down lunch. I eat at items all afternoon because of interruptions, people, and tasks, admin in public school. Thanks.

    1. Yep, I’ve done them before! They are super convenient for packaging/storing in the fridge, but I find them a bit of a PITA once I’m trying to eat them because I dump everything out on a plate to actually eat them. That would probably be different if you don’t stuff the jars as much as I do.

       To resolve this, I just have a couple of small squeeze bottles that I put dressing in, then pack my salads in non-jar storage containers. I can prep the same way, but eat out of the storage container rather than getting something else dirty.

       A couple of salads that are my go-tos are a Chipotle-esque version with grilled chicken, black beans, corn, grilled peppers & onions, romaine, a sprinkle of monterey jack and chipotle vinaigrette. Another is a Greek version, again with grilled chicken but with English cucumbers, cherry tomatoes, feta, a bit of quinoa, kalamata olives and balsamic. I prep everything by chopping the various items, then line up my containers and dump everything in.

22. I used to be a pretty fashion-conscious person but now here I am almost forty, mom, on a budget, etc, and have completely lost all touch with anything beyond classic work clothes.
    I have a family wedding next weekend and would like to buy something new but have no idea what to wear. I rarely go to weddings anymore and the last one I attended I felt like my dress was hopelessly out of date. Wedding is at a country club in NJ and dress code is “cocktail.” I am very tall, pear shaped, and 15 lbs overweight. I’d appreciate any recommendations as I went shopping last weekend and left completely overwhelmed.

    1. I will help! A few questions, first: what’s your budget? Any colors/styles you absolutely hate? And — are you willing to purchase new shoes? I find that shoes are often the first thing that makes an outfit look dated.

    2. This is the perfect opportunity for Rent the Runway. Really nice clothing, budget friendly unless you feel the need to own it. But if you “rarely go to weddings anymore” then I would consider spending $100 to rent a gorgeous dress that makes you feel spectacular.

       1. https://www.renttherunway.com/shop/designers/yoana_baraschi/oscar_wild_dinner_dress

          https://www.renttherunway.com/shop/designers/jill_jill_stuart/jet_black_dress

          https://www.renttherunway.com/shop/designers/monique_lhuillier/mona_dress

          https://www.renttherunway.com/shop/designers/halston_heritage/jasmine_rainwater_dress

          https://www.renttherunway.com/shop/designers/badgley_mischka/stormy_skies_sheath

          https://www.renttherunway.com/shop/designers/kay_unger/sequin_rain_sheath

    3. This is the OP. Thank you for the responses! Loving the rent the runway suggestions. Gives me a place to start though I think I will buy – after reading anon2buy’s questions I realized I have two more events this fall I will need a cocktail dress for, so may as well get something that works. For budget I’d like to stay under 200. I love bright colors but that’s part of what makes me feel like my dress at the last wedding looked too young, so I will probably go black or navy. I prefer fitted over flowy but it’s hard for me to find anything fitted that fits well because my top is two sizes smaller than my bottom…and as I type this I’m realizing if I go that route I should buy larger and find a tailor. I guess I have learned a few things from the folks on this site!

       1. I know I’m late to this but I have a dress I really like that I think would work well if you were bigger on the bottom and it’s midi length so it wouldnt look too short on someone tall. It comes in tons of colors. Link to follow!

          1. http://shop.nordstrom.com/sr?origin=keywordsearch&contextualcategoryid=2374331&keyword=adrianna+papell+mikado

    4. This dress always has great reviews. http://m.shop.nordstrom.com/s/tadashi-shoji-embroidered-lace-sheath-dress-regular-petite/3434946?origin=keywordsearch-personalizedsort&fashioncolor=AQUA%20BLUE

       If I was going to wear one dress to multiple events I’d get a black sleeveless dress and update it with different accessories for each event.

       1. Something like this. http://m.bloomingdales.com/shop/product/lysse-ponte-fit-flare-dress?ID=1649148&PartnerID=LINKSHARE&cm_mmc=LINKSHARE-_-n-_-n-_-n&PartnerID=LINKSHARE&LinkshareID=J84DHJLQkR4-lvdCu2isAZouA3DwfEbSKA&ranPublisherID=J84DHJLQkR4&ranLinkID=840643154018&ranLinkTypeID=15

       2. This is the OP. I found this same dress on Nordstrom Rack in black earlier this evening. I think it’s the one! Thank you! And thanks to everyone who gave suggestions!

          1. The Tadashi Shoji dress, I mean.

23. When a man writes back RIGHT AWAY to my response every single time I reply, I feel annoyed to the point that it makes him unappealing to me. I don’t need someone to play hard to get, but I don’t have time to deal with these constant responses and it seems kind of desperate. Legitimate annoyance or am I being a judgmental jerk?

    1. For me it would be a legitimate annoyance too. I’m really turned off when people want to “chat” in real time. I just don’t have the time or desire for that.

       Also, I think desperation is often palpable. On weekends, I imagine that someone I’d like to date is mostly out and about enjoying themselves with hobbies or friends. If they’re responding immediately to my messages I’d be a bit worried about why.

    2. Maybe it’s a geek thing but I don’t have a problem with rapid responses – unless theya re short and instant messaging style when not on instant messenger of some kind.

    3. I think it sounds judgmental to ding someone for the timing of the response. Judge for the content of the message, sure. But a response doesn’t mean they aren’t out and about – so many of these things are accessible by phone. It also sounds a lot like the “don’t call for 3 days” rule, which I think is crap. If someone is interested, they shouldn’t be dinged for having that interest, right?

       To me, a response means someone who is actively engaged with the dating process and will have the momentum to get something going offline.

       1. I don’t think it’s judgmental. If a person is always responding to the OP within minutes of her sending a message, they’re either a) on their computer all the time or b) checking their phone compulsively. Being around people who are like that is not enjoyable for me and so I probably would wonder about it if it was happening for every message.

          1. I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think that someone who happens see my message pop up within minutes should ignore it for an arbitrary time. But if they’re always seeing my message within minutes then they’re probably not the person for me because I just simply do not like to be that connected all the time and feel frustrated around partners who insist on it.

24. Interview attire Q:
    I have an interview today. I am still at my old job going first to a meeting outside of the office planning to wear something different and take the dress with me…. Can I wear a Vince black silk dress with a belt and push up the long sleeves? It is so hot outside! ( these days when no court is involved I carry a thin cardigan at most)TIA!

    1. A suit.

25. Please, please don’t use the buzz phrase “pull the trigger”. If you had ever been shot or seconds away from another person “pulling the trigger” on you, I think you would perceive the phrase differently.

26. Eh, I think this is a bridge too far.

    1. Meant as a reply to “pull the trigger” above.

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