Coffee Break – Suede Classic Pumps

Suede Classic PumpsBrooks Brothers has a ton of cute shoes on sale right now, including these lovely purple suede pumps. I like the 3.25″ heel, the plum color, and the leather lining. They were $198, but are now $79.20 (sizes 6-10 still available). Suede Classic Pumps

(L-2)

Comments

  1. Anyone know how the sizing/quality is on Brooks Brothers shoes? Never tried them, but these ones sure are gorgeous…

    • I find they’re true-to-size and good quality, but definitely not my most comfortable shoes.

    • Quality is good. But here’s the major issue — ALL the shoes dye your feet. It ruins your heels and stockings. These shoes will make the bottoms of your feet purple. I have red and black pairs that turn my feet red and black. It gets slightly better with time but it sucks. I have 5 pairs and all 5 pairs have this problem. Honestly, I think I am going to just give up on their shoes now. Not worth the destruction.

      • I have a pair of suede flats from them from the outlet a couple of months ago in this exact color and they have never colored my feet. It’s the only pair of shoes I own from them though.

        • I am suprised no one else has this problem. It certainly never gets mentioned on their website reviews. I would think it is my feet somehow but it never happens with any other shoes!

          • OMG…AIMS…maybe its just YOU. Brooks Brothers has marked you as “the one” and they are coming for you.

          • Those bastards!

          • ooh, me too, me too! More so with their suede than with other leathers, but it’s noticeable and very irritating.

      • Anonymous :

        This may be late in the day, but I have Cole Haan shoes that do this as well (blue… smurf feet). What the solution is — get the water/weatherproofing spray and spray the insides of the shoes.

      • Thanks for saving me $80 AIMS!

    • WARNING: I bought those shoes a while back and while they are beautifully made and comfortable, the toe box is really, really long and pointy.

  2. I have one pair and found them to be TTS (I wear a 7 1/2 regular). They are also reasonably comfortable – and I am prone to foot-related woes.

  3. These pumps look like they’d be perfect for many of the readers here – no toe cleavage, not too high, but still stylish. I already have these: http://www.overstock.com/Clothing-Shoes/Nine-West-Womens-Barbe-Suede-Pumps/4242140/product.html
    and I’m much less conservative, in general.

    • Former MidLevel :

      I second the Barbe pumps – I own them in green and have worn them to death.

    • I have the black leather version of this shoe and it is my go-to black pump. I wore my first pair into the ground, and I am now on my second pair. They are not hiking shoes by any stretch, but they are on the short list of heels I will wear if I know I’ll have to walk a couple blocks. I think you hit the nail on the head, NOLA–they are inoffensive overall without looking like something your grandmother would choose.

  4. Always a NYer :

    How do you get your hair to look shiny and bouncy? I’ve noticed that my hair is looking rather dull these days. I color my hair every 5-6 weeks (a rinse to cover the grey with highlights now and then), use sulfate-free shampoo and conditioner (washing my hair only four times a week), as well as a clarifying shampoo once a week. The only product I use on my hair is argan oil on the days I wash my hair. I’m at a loss with what to do and open to all suggestions. TIA!!!

    • Is your hair curly or straight? Mine is wavy, and I love the John Freida products, especially Secret Weapon Flawless Finishing Creme. It adds shine without weight.

    • John Frieda Product Discontinued Rant :

      My favorite product, John Frieda Weatherproofing, which you apply to wet/damp hair before styling to keep all moisture and humidity O-U-T once you style your hair, has been discontinued. The John Frieda site says “you may also like” some silicone product that you spray on your already dry and styled hair to make it shiny. What?!

    • Jennifer S :

      Have you ever gotten a glaze with your normal hair color? My colorist usually does my highlights, lets it process, washes, and then applies a glaze (maybe also called a toner?) for 15 minutes, and I get washed again. I think it adds another dimension of color or tones it down, but I believe there are clear ones too. I also think you can buy a clear version at the drug store, but I can’t think of the brand. It definitely adds shine, and I think it makes my hair more manageable. It probably lasts 6 weeks or so?

      • Second doing a Clairol clear glaze at home if you don’t do salon color. I get a colored glaze roughly every other time I get my hair dyed, and it looks awesome and shiny. (Disclosure–I have brown/auburn Irish ringlets–your straight hair may vary!)

    • I only shampoo my hair about twice a week and if I blow it out, it can last 4-5 days. Perhaps you can try cutting down if possible depending on your hair type.

    • I used argan oil recently on my hair (after coconut oil and olive oil), and found it very hard to wash away and even after 3 shampoos it left my hair a bit limp. Maybe try to switch to lighter oils (hazelnut, jojoba maybe ?).

      • To clarify : I’ve used coconut oil and olive oil on my hair in the past, and now argan. Definitely not piling layers of veg. oils at the same time :)

  5. Anon for this :

    Love the color, but even with a 3″+ heel, these look a little dowdy to me.

    Comment #4326 suggesting that there needs to be a FAQ section: I’m looking for one of the recent threads (I know there have been several) discussing recommended pregnancy books. How do I search for that again…?

    • in google – site:[thissite].com [searchterm]

    • Not sure what you’re looking for but I like the Mayo Clinic book. It’s straight forward, factual, tons of info, and has everything on every pain and ache you may feel. If you’re looking for something fluffy/light/fun then that is not the book for you.

      Coolmompicks has some good recommendations too.

      • Anon for this :

        Again, perfect! I want the cold, hard facts allll in one place (preferably with a monstrous index). I’m sure I’ll get plenty of the fluffy books soon enough, and I’d vastly prefer to have something more clinical on hand to start reading from the get-go.

    • I’m currently reading The Girlfriends’ Guide. Borrowed copy, written in the mid-ninety’s. I’d recommend it.

    • Another anon for this :

      Oh! Speaking of, I’ve been unsuccessfully trying to use the google search to find a pregnancy book recommendation from a past thread. The book was specifically written for professional women and I think it had a funny/snarky tone but also covered things like how to deal with morning sickness while working in an office full time. Does anyone know the book I’m talking about?

      • I don’t know if this is it, but I read “Balance is a Crock and Sleep is for the Weak” and it dealt with pregnancy and working motherhood in a pretty straightforward way.

  6. Mamma Mia :

    Threadjack (pregnancy warning, but work-related): We’ve discussed a good bit about telling bosses/co-workers of a pregnancy, but one thing that I’ve never thought of before is how to (whether to?) tell clients.

    Background is that I’m 9 weeks along, and I have told everyone that I work with (and pretty much everyone that I know – I know that there’s a school of thought that I’ve told too early, but I’ve thought it through). I’m an attorney for a very small firm, and I do a lot of direct client contact. Most of our clients are individuals, and I have a heavy family law practice. I have a, well, I wouldn’t say personal, but friendly relationship with most of my clients, and it’s not unusual for small talk about kids/plans for kids to come up. I can hold off a little bit before telling them, I’m sure, and there are a few that I hope will resolve before it would become relevant or apparent (but we all know how that goes), but what about the rest?

    I would feel bad to just appear to them with a belly one day and leave them wondering, but, on the other hand, until my actual leave comes around, it doesn’t have anything to really do with them (thankfully, I seem to be missing out on most of the 1st trimester yuckies). Also, I don’t want to give them any impression that I would be distracted, and, since they’re going through very difficult times, I’d feel weird about saying “So, I’ve got some good news for me!” But, of course, at the same time, I feel odd about not telling them, and it’s certainly possible that someone else in the office will spill the beans.

    • I personally cannot see any reason to tell them until you’re getting ready to go out on mat leave, or you have another extended period of time out of the office (bedrest perhaps). Frankly, you’ve already told your co-workers, friends and family and while your clients may be “happy” for you, they won’t really care about your pregnancy except how it effects them (i.e., will things be put on hold until you come back? will someone else cover? how do they reach that person, etc.). You’re a female of child-bearing age. A client simply won’t be shocked as you say when they come to the office and you have a belly, nor will they feel left out.

    • If you do want to tell them, I would consider waiting till 12 weeks – while you might not mind telling your coworkers about a miscarriage, it could be very awkward to tell your clients.

      • This. Maybe even wait until 16 or 20 weeks if you can. My 3 m/c all happened between 12.5 and 15 weeks, which is admittedly quite unusual, but waiting could save some awkwardness if anything were to happen, especially with clients that you see only occasionally.

    • If I Were Your Client :

      If you were my family law (or other individual legal needs) lawyer, I would want to know well in advance that you would be gone as of X date and who would be available to me while you were gone and when you would be back. And I would want to meet with that person well in advance so that if I had an issue, we could resolve it before you disappear. Since the work you do for me is so personal, I would not want to feel abandoned or out of control.

      • Lyssa/Mamma Mia :

        Yeah, that’s definitely going to be an issue, as I am the only associate. Maybe it would be a good idea to make sure that issue gets ironed out (that I’ve actually discussed these things with the attorney who will pick up the slack) before I say anything.

        But, of course, I probably won’t be having that conversation with my partners until much, much later, after the belly will be unavoidable (we can make general plans now, but the cases are so unpredictable that they’re likely to be entirely different cases by my leave, which is December.)

        I suppose that that’s my big concern, that the client will feel abandoned or uncertain (as if they don’t enough already). Yikes.

    • PharmaGirl :

      I woul dstill wait until 20 weeks before informing any clients. In my previous company, clients were informed during live meetings (not teleconferences) where the pregnant person was present. It was always met with happy congratulations but, obviously, I’m talking about a completely different industry. The clients didn’t care about when someone was going on leave and when they would be back, just that their work would continue with the same standards and no visible interruption.

      • I told some clients when I knew that another lawyer would have to help me cover their case when I went on leave. I did wait until I was about 18 weeks and showing though. For clients who I will be helping with short-term issues, I do not mention the pregnancy, since it will not affect their case.

  7. anon in DC :

    No advice but when are you going to tell us all here, with your usual moniker?

    Good luck with telling your clients!

  8. Love those! What is the consensus of the hive about wearing suede shoes in the summer?

    • I wear suede shoes all year long.

    • Former MidLevel :

      I don’t really believe in “rules” relegating certain fabrics to certain seasons–especially on an item-by-item basis. I wouldn’t wear these with an all-suede outfit, but I’d rock a colorful suede shoe in any season.

    • S in Chicago :

      I usually think it’s best left to fall/winter. Even if it’s just on shoes, it still seems to me like it falls into the same family as velvet, wool, heavy tweed, etc. That said, I may be in a growing minority given how many suede sandals I’m seeing these days. I think things are shifting a bit these days.

      • I think some suede shoes just scream fall/winter, others are fine year around, some are just downright summer shoes.

  9. Anybody been to Tangier Island on VA’s eastern shore?

  10. Any suggestions on how to deal with feelings of jealousy between adult siblings? I am the oldest of three, and love my siblings dearly. I’m genuinely proud of their accomplishments and wish nothing but great things for them.

    That said, I struggle with jealousy – for example, regarding appearance, professional success, and love lives. Any thoughts about how I can stop comparing us – or what I can do to make myself feel better when I do?

    • karenpadi :

      This kind of thing tore my dad and his siblings apart. I recommend therapy before it gets out of control.

    • I can empathize. I love my sister more than anything and we are very close, but I do feel pangs of jealousy about certain things. For example, she is beautiful; I’m decidedly average. We don’t look very much alike, and when people meet her, they often come to me later to tell me about how beautiful she is and how they can’t believe we’re related. No one means any harm, but hearing those kinds of comments my whole life has done a bit of a number on my self-esteem!

      Anyway, I highly recommend therapy. It helps to be in an unbiased environment — and to recognize that even though you may not see it right now, there are surely things about you that they envy. It helps to try to accept what you can’t change and focus on what you can change. For example, if you envy your sibling’s career (and not just in passing, but to the point where it hurts you), does that mean you’re not happy with your own job? If so, think of small steps you can take to improve your own situation.

    • Oh man, this is so timely.
      I never really felt very jealous of my sibs when we were children, mostly because they are all boys and most of them are much younger. But I have on occasion struggled with rivalrous feelings with the one closest to me. It’s hard. I recently confided to a few close friends and my husband how momentarily irrationally jealous I was feeling that my brother makes so much money at such a young age, and they all looked at me like I was crazy. I know I’m crazy, I don’t need you to tell me that! Ha, I don’t know what to do about those feelings. I mostly just try to squash them and remind myself that overall, I don’t want his life, thank you very much. We’ve made different choices and I stand by mine…also, I know he’s been jealous of me many, many times. The grass is always greener. Like Anonva says, I think those feelings tend to surface more when I’m unhappy with some area of my own life.

      For Anonva- I don’t know what I’d do in that situation. That sounds really hard. Maybe that’s the only upside to not getting to have a sister- no direct comparisons.

    • I’m coming from the opposite situation. Two of my siblings recently (within the past year) had outbursts about how they’re so jealous of me and always have been, etc… I have no idea how to deal with their anger. It’s weird because there are definitely things about them that I know I don’t have and that I love about them, but I’m not jealous of them, they’re my siblings! (E.g. my sister is beautiful, smart, makes friends easily and keeps them well, my brother is smart, in great shape, and always seems to land on his feet and trust himself even with others think he’s wrong, and also makes friends easily and keeps them well.)

      So yeah, no real advice, just, don’t get drunk and throw up on your sister’s car and then scream about how she was always the perfect one anyway. Or get furious with her and stop speaking to her for months when she says she thinks you’re awesome because she must be being sarcastic. She’ll have no idea whatsoever how to respond and your relationship will be strained for (at least) months.

      • SoCalAtty :

        A second to CA Atty’s comment! I originally wrote a longer reply, but deleted it because it sounded obnoxious. Suffice it to say I have a 19 year old brother who, despite being 100% financially supported by me (no parents left) has frequent outbursts about how jealous he is of me – even though he has 0 responsibilities and I have “lifeguard duty” for all of my + my husband’s family (meaning I’m the rescuer). I know, I’m an enabler…we’re working on that…but us other siblings really have no idea how to respond because (in general) we love you and just want to be the cool sibling!

        • I’m glad you chimed in, I really think in my family at least it’s a matter of being close in age. My younger brother is about 8 years younger than I and we have never had these issues.

  11. no advice, but when you’ve mastered that, you’ve pretty much figured it all out ;)

  12. Anonymous :

    Advice please – my good friend’s brother is looking for a job in my industry. My knowledge of his situation is that he was employed immediately after college, didn’t like the job, quit, moved to Phoenix for better job opportunities in the middle of the recession, moved back home at some point and may or may not have had any sort of job since. He recently completed a master’s program (though I was attending the same school for a different program and never saw him in my three years.)

    I received a text last night from my friend indicating her brother applied for a job in my department (we have four open positions right now) AND put me down as a reference. For references point, the last time I saw this individual was when I was MOH at his sister’s wedding and he “spilled” his beer down the front of my dress while I was taking money for the dollar dance.

    So…what do I say if someone asks me about his application?

    • Good lord he is out of college but doesnt know to ASK for a reference not to just put you down?

      If you get asked about his application say “Oh yes, Jonathan. I have been close friends with his sister for years. I know Jonathan personally, not professional, so unfortunately cannot speak to how he would be as a fit for that job. As a person he is (kind? smart? can you think of two adjectives that you feel honestly).”

      • Anonymous :

        D-bag? Arrogant? In all honesty, I’m hoping 4+ years of unemployment or underemployment has given him a good dose of humility.

        • Ha. then don’t recommend him. I would just say “oh I know him personally through a friend, but I really have no knowledge of his work.” your friend wont ask what you said about him, and if she does, I would just say “Well they asked me about how is in a work environment which I couldnt answer, but I did say I knew him personally and talked about what a good program he went to at our school” or something like that.

    • I would say something like “His sister/brother is a friend, but I honestly don’t know him all that well outside of having met him at a few of friend’s family events. He seems like a nice person, but I don’t really know anything about his work experience.”

      I’d say that that “says” enough without actually saying anything negative. I don’t think that you should repeat anything that you just sort of know or have heard.

      The “nice person” part is entirely optional, given the beer incident. :)

      • Anonymous :

        Oh yes, I agree that I shouldn’t give any of his background. Afterall, HR or whoever asks has his resume. I will encourage said individual to contact his other references. That said, if he’s applying for the position that will be working directly with me, I might have to think about this a little bit more.

    • “I know nothing of his work experience and am frankly surprised he listed me as a reference.”

      I think this would send the message you’d like to send.

    • I would NOT work with this PERSON. FOOEY on him for puting you down as a reference!

      You do NOT even know him! What hapens when he start’s workeing for the same company? I think I would NOT want to get sandebagged by him.

      FOOEY on him. Say you do not know him so can not give him any reference!

      FOOEY!

    • Jenna Rink :

      Is there any chance this is a miscommunication and he put you down as the person who referred him to the job, not as an employment reference? A lot of job applications ask how you found out about the job. It is still dishonest, seeing as you weren’t the one to tell him about the job, but at least HR wouldn’t be expecting you to attest to his character!

      • Jenna – thanks for this angle. I had not considered it. I would be perfectly fine if he indicated that I told him about the job posting. I did text my friend back to let her know that if her brother wants insight into the industry, he should contact me and set up a time to meet for coffee.

  13. Burned out :

    Reposting from the earlier thread:
    Have you reached a point in a career when you’ve lost any sense of joy/creativity/satisfaction that you once had? If so, how the heck did you get it back? I’m 10 years into my career and have reached the point where I’m plateauing. I can’t seem to feel excited about what’s next, not that I can even see what that might be. I’m good at what I do, but I’m losing the will to do all those ‘extras’ that I know I should be doing, like networking, or even getting excited to learn new skills. I enjoy the people I work with more than I enjoy the actual work, even though I used to really love it.

    I think part of my problem is just plain burnout from working in a high-pressure environment and not taking enough vacation. But if I’m really honest with myself, I know that I’ve lost the desire to pour my whole heart and soul into my job anymore. Without that driving me, I feel kind of lost and like I’m phoning it in. I’m not quite 32, and this feels like a really bad mentality to have, considering how many working years I have ahead of me.

    Any words of advice (or commiseration)? Or any words of wisdom about how to take time off and actually enjoy it without fearing the huge piles of work that will be waiting when you return?

    • Hypothetically, you could . . .

      Consider a career change, get certified to teach yoga, change mind, move across the country, keep practicing law, take metalsmithing classes, open an Etsy shop, devote even less time and energy to your day job because you’re too busy keeping up on your gemstone inventory. . . .

      Not that I’d know. I don’t pretend to have any answers; I’m still searching and fighting the malaise. Something to look forward to/fulfilled by outside work does help, though.

      (:

      • Burned out :

        Heh, unlike you, I am so not the crafty type. :)

        • It doesn’t have to be crafty things! Think about what used to give you joy, and how you can reconnect with it. In my case, law school truly beat the joy and creativity out of me, and practice drained the energy out of me; it was a solid decade before I found the brain-space for anything beyond earning a living. Maybe there’s something outside your work that could fulfill you, and maybe in some way that’ll help energize your work again?

    • I’m with Kanye. No advice but I can commiserate. I’ve been trying to shift into a different area of the same industry and hoping that is a better fit (better hours, less pressure). Is something like that an option?

    • ummm, are you me? Or did i sleep-comment?
      Sorry, I don’t have any advice, but I sympathize, because I have been feeling Exactly. The. Same. Way. for a while, and I feel horribly guilty about it. :o( at least here’s some commiseration!

  14. I’m wearing a favorite pair of peep-toe flats. I got them at Gap something like 3 years ago. I have worn them into the ground. They are royal blue, with a navy bow above my little toe (at a 45-degree angle). They are adorable, and super comfy (cloth uppers).

    But I am afraid they are wearing out. Does anyone have any other suggestion for peep-toe flats? These are comfy and cute enough to wear all summer with casual outfits. And they are a step up in sophistication from sandals or flip-flops, which I like.

  15. Re-posting from this morning’s thread.

    I need some advice regarding a belated thank-you. In the winter, I applied for a job on a very rushed time frame (a networking connection told me the employer was interviewing that week and offered to send along my materials, if I could get them together quickly). One of my mentors was kind enough to have a long conversation with me about whether I should apply, and then wrote me a glowing recommendation letter once I decided to do it. He has an extremely busy schedule and yet was willing to take time to talk to me on really short notice and wrote me a letter within a week. I of course said thank you many times over the phone, and emailed a thank you after he sent the letter. I told him I would let him know how it went. I meant to send a handwritten thank you note as soon as I found out whether or not I got the job (thinking I would get word within a week or so). Instead, I found out about a month later that I did not get it. It was a crazy time at work, and I was a bit bummed, so I put off sending out a handwritten note. Of course this is no excuse. Now the thank you is several months overdue, and more importantly, I never let him know I did not get the position! I am so embarrassed about how rude this was. What’s the best way to word the thank you? I’m assuming it’s not silly to send it at this point — better late than never, right? (Even six months late? Sigh). Thanks in advance for any advice!

    • To be honest I wouldnt do a handwritten note since you didn’t get the job. It seems like an overly formal way to announce it. I would email him though. And email actually keeps the lines of communication open better.

      Hi Soand so,

      I just wanted to say hello, it has been a while since we last spoke! How is (something, work, kids, hobby) I just finished a very busy time at work for me, finishing (the project/year end stuff/conquering westereos, etc) I also wanted to update you on the (RUSHEDjob) we spoke about. I did not get the position, but I wanted to thank you for all the time you took to speak with me about the decision, and especially for the letter you wrote on my behalf. I greatly appreciate your recommendation and the advice you gave me about(the job/applying/networking/dealing with joffrey) Although I didn’t get the job, I have been enjoying my current (project/job/Ros) and have my eyes peeled for other future opportunities. Thank you again, and I hope to see you soon.

    • Same question, slightly different situation. A friend’s mother pushed my resume forward for a position in an industry with nothing to do with anything I’d studied, worked on before, or had any intention of ever doing. I was desperate, though, so I interviewed, and was offered the position. At the exact same time, I was interviewed for the position I’m at now, and I took the position that made use of my training, was more interesting, and was actually on my career path. I sent an email thanking my friend’s mother after the interview, but never followed up with her after I was offered the position to explain my decision.

      I’m not particularly close with the friend since college, so I haven’t heard from her on that front, either.

      How do I proceed? Should I just send an email updating her on my current situation? Send nothing?

  16. Vent time, my apologies.

    So I’m a newish stepmom of an 12 year old girl. Mom mentioned on the second to last day to register stepdaughter for next year’s classes that she couldn’t get into the online registration system and hadn’t registered stepdaughter for classes yet. The next day (last day to register), my SO (dad) asked me to check the online registration and see if mom had done it yet (my SO works in the field, no access to a computer). She hadn’t so my SO asked me to please sign her up for whatever and we’d deal with any needed class changes later. I signed her up for 2 electives that her mom/stepdad and her dad/me had already agreed on and chose the most academically inclined elective option for the third slot (which we hadn’t discussed). I did however pick backup alternates that were along the same lines as classes stepdaughter has previously taken when signed up by mom. We told mom what I signed her up for and mom didn’t say anything about disagreeing or changing any of the classes.

    Now (6 weeks month later…) mom is mad that I registered stepdaughter for classes “without her input.” My SO has apologized profusely for accidentally putting me in the middle of this but I’m annoyed with mom. 1) Sign your kid up on time, then I wouldn’t be the one doing it! 2) We had already agreed on 2 of 3 classes! It’s not like I picked three random classes! 3) If you had a problem with the classes I picked, why didn’t you mention it when I told you what I registered her for instead of calling about it weeks later?

    Okay sorry, vent over. I realize this is dumb because there is still plenty of time to change classes before next school year but I was just annoyed.

    • How frustrating – sorry! On the bright side, your SO sounds awesome.

      • Anne Shirley :

        No he doesn’t! He sounds like he didn’t follow up enough with mom to get this done, and then dumped it on step mom. Okay he has a field job. But if step mOm weren’t there to thanklessly pick up the slack then what?

        • He actually is awesome and stuff like this doesn’t typically happen. Mom was actually the primary custodian at the time so this was her responsibility and had she not mentioned it, we wouldn’t even have known there was an issue with registration.

          Since then (for a variety of reasons) we’ve gone to 50/50 custody and we did an end run around mom with the school to make sure we’re aware of things that might get sent home when mom has her.

          I will say, having an SO like him is the only way I would do stepparenting! We get along well with mom and even then there is plenty of stuff like this. I can’t even imagine if things were contentious between her and my SO or if he didn’t always stick up for me/include me/take my side!

          • Is he your husband or your SO? I would try to cut the mom a little slack. I think as a mom whose kid was gaining a new stepparent, I would have some trouble adjusting to it. When she married or had a child with your SO, she was choosing him, not his future partner, and she may be adjusting to your new role and you having some new authority in how her child is raised.

          • Part of me is so desperate to cut mom some slack because I really think she is doing the best she can. Mom has three kids by three different dads (one of whom remarried as well) and dad was actually married for a short time to another person earlier in stepdaughter’s life (he and Mom were never really together). I admit our meet-to-marriage timeline was very quick (less than 18 months) and do appreciate that she has not treated me like I am evil. But some of the things that led to us getting more custody involve stepdaughter’s basic safety and honestly it just galls me that she’s pissed I signed her daughter up for classes without talking to her when I’m pissed I have to worry about her kid’s basic safety when she is not with us.

          • aw, KLG, it sounds like this whole thing is more than just frustration coming out, it’s fear! I’m so sorry, wish I could really help, but here are some (((((internet hugs)))))

          • Frannie, I completely disagree with you.

            Just because the ex-wife *might* be having jealousy issues or whatever issues, does not make it right for her to be so irresponsible with her own daughter’s schooling. She’s being a crap parent. She cares more about post-facto ranting about her supposed rights (which she chooses to not exercise) than about getting her daughter’s courses in place.

          • Susan totally agree without about being irresponsible. That’s a seperate issue. I was talking about the fact that she is acting mad about it weeks later. but it sounds like there are additional issues going on as well.

          • Also sorry for any confusion! I had frannie filled in on my work laptop (from before I became cfm, and which i shouldn’t be on corporette with :)

    • Stepmom re: driving and ACT preparing :

      Dear KLG,

      Oh, I have so much to share on this subject. I am preparing for a 1:00 with a client (a girl’s got to have priorities!), but I will try to remember to come back and post. If not, remind me tomorrow.

      • 'Nother Quasi Stepmom :

        I’m looking forward to hearing it too — SO has a 13 yr old daughter, and there is no real drama, but it’s a weird space to navigate and I have no real life friends to discuss with. It’s been great to realize that there are others out here!

        I posted a few weeks ago asking about day camps for teen girls in NoVA– since BOTH have complained she has no friends when visiting dad, so day camps seemed like the natural answer. Info was passed on, and as usual not acted upon. So, friend situation is still non-existent.

        While I’m pretty fantastic and can (and have) planned a lot of awesome activities for us to do while she’s here, I can’t produce 13 year old girls out of thin air, people….

        • Happy for co-commiseration and/or navigating weird space advice!

          • 'Nother Quasi Stepmom :

            My few suggestions are:

            Figure out your safe spaces for venting. Some people are likely to turn any complaint into wicked stepmother territory — this is even if it’s something that a (bio)parent could say with no recrimination and would probably just get sympathy.

            Read Stepmonster by Wednesday Martin

            Don’t let SO try to get you more involved than you want to be. Obviously you shouldn’t ignore his kid(s) or not help with basic things, but if you’re not being appreciated the way you want to be for what you do by your SO (you can’t help what the ex-wife, or even younger stepkids think/do), then don’t feel guilted into doing things you don’t want to do.

            That last point may not make any sense, and it does sound like you and SO have resolved that issue, but that’s something I’m still struggling with — esp when it comes to things like help with schoolwork.

        • Stepmom re: driving and ACT preparing :

          Re friends and summer camp and “no action taken yet,” this is when our blended family therapist would say “lead, follow or get out of the way.” Send an email to mom (if it is appropriate, copy SD) saying: “you (and SD) were concerned about her not knowing any peers where we live, I have found X summer programs for her to participate in while she is here so that she can meet peers, here are the websites, I plan to sign her up for dates X-Y no later than next Friday so that she will be able to attend while she is here this summer.”

          And then do it. First, you are doing the right thing for SD so she will have a good experience. Second, if her mom is a classic stonewaller, as soon as she sees that her non-action doesn’t stop things from happening, she will either get on board with co-planning or she will pick another tactic.

          Good luck!

    • downstream :

      You can’t control how your SO’s ex-wife treats you. You CAN control how you react to her behavior. Ignore her. She’s just trying to get under your skin – don’t let her succeed.

      • This is such good advice for so many aspects of life…

      • i have absolutely no experience with what you are dealing with, but as an impartial outside observer, I would second downstream. I agree it is really frustrating that she is complaining when you were trying to help, but i have a hunch she would have found something to complain about no matter what you had done! If you had not registered your SD, because you ‘didn’t have input from her,’ then she would have complained that you won’t ‘help out’! Don’t you think?

        So, to sum up, i think you have to figure out how to let it roll off, because i think she’s going to put you in a lose-lose situation, so you have to come up with other reasons to do the things you do that do not involve some reaction from her. (either a thank you, or even just being quiet) You registered your SD for her and for your SO, not for ex-wife, so if she’s not happy: :::: Kanye shrug ::::

    • Stepmom re: driving and ACT preparing :

      I’m back. I have had a lot of experience with this, and it’s mostly bad. I am undoubtedly projecting, but here are my comments:

      • Mom will complain no matter what. You can’t make her complain more or less by anything you do or say or don’t do or don’t say. You are allowed to be irritated by this and to vent about it, but just realize that it comes with the territory. Don’t ever let mom know how it affects you. If you need to, just be happy you’re not SD because SD is going to spend most of her life either thinking she can make mom complain less “if only I . . . “ or in therapy trying to digest that it’s not SD’s fault. SD is the right age to read Rachel Rashkin, “An Umbrella for Alex,” which is perfect for this.
      • Stepmonster by Wednesday Martin is fantastic. I highly recommend that you and DH read and discuss together. (I also recommended several other books – was that to you? – you can search for my post using “stepmonster” and “martin” and you’ll find it.)
      • Transparency is your friend. There are five people involved here: SDad, mom, SD, dad and SM. Plus whatever outside agency is involved, here: the school. Everything must be in writing. How do you know what all four of you agreed to? I hope it is because there is an email somewhere. But if it was an oral discussion, you have to stop that right here and now. (I’m not saying that having it in writing means she will never change her mind. Would that it were so. It won’t. But I like to have what mom said in writing because later, when she changes her mind and says, “as I told you quite clearly, the sky is plaid,” it calms my mind to pull out her previous email in which she said “the sky is pink.” She, however, does not like to be reminded that she previously said the sky was pink because in her world, she gets to say and do whatever she wants with no accountability. You, however, have to follow all of her rules, all the time, even the ones you don’t know about and couldn’t guess.)
      • Also, if you haven’t already, I highly recommend going “low contact.” Google it. Basically, you communicate only in writing and only about relevant, kid-related issues. It took us nearly two years to institute this because mom had gotten used to calling DH, having him pick up, and yelling at him about something he said when she was pregnant with SS 20 years ago. But now that she knows he won’t answer the phone, she doesn’t call anymore. There was a transition period of about a year when she knew he wouldn’t pick up, but she still called and left him nasty voicemails calling him names. But he “had” to listen to the end in case there was something about school in there somewhere.
      • At some point, it also makes sense for SD to be on some of these emails. We hit that point when mom told SD she would pay for half of X, SD asked us and we agreed to pay for half of X, then SD spent her money on X and guess who ponied up (us) and who did not (mom). After this happened a couple times, DH had SD start asking both parents to pay for half of X by a simultaneous email. Magically, mom behaves (no name calling) and ponies up. Wish we had done it years ago.
      • You’ll notice that I am not on these emails. This is a judgment call. You are coming to the party when SD is still pretty young. If mom has not already poisoned SD against you, you and DH can decide that you are going to appear to the outside elements (mom, SD, schools) as an equal team and you will thus be copied on everything and attend everything either with him or in his stead (MD visits, school nights etc.) Mom had already so poisoned SD against me that this was not an option for us. I wish we had been on this earlier because I think it would have cut down on a lot of the bull#(@&.
      • Deal with third parties directly. You have already learned this because you went directly to the school. Ditto doctors, dentists, soccer coaches, other kids’ parents etc. You could go blue in the face waiting for mom to share that information, even if she is court ordered to do so and even if she has said she will. You do not want to be beholden to her. Regarding parental alienation, read:
      o Amy J.L. Baker, “I Don’t Want to Choose: How Middle School Kids Can Avoid Choosing One Parent Over the Other”
      o Amy J.L. Baker, “Beyond the High Road,” available for download here: http://www.ncfm.org/libraryfiles/Children/Alienation/BeyondthehighroadMay2008-1.pdf
      o Richard Warshak, Divorce Poison.
      • For things like registering for school, summer camp etc where there are deadlines, our blended family therapist (LOVE her) gave us the “lead, follow or get out of the way” approach. When dad has to do something like register SD for school, he should send an email to mom, copy SDad and you (and maybe SD), tell her what he plans to do and when, ask if she wants to be involved, and tell her that if he does not hear from her by X date he will go forward as described. I cannot believe how long it took us to learn this approach and I so wish I had back all the time and angst I lost before we learned it. Mom once stonewalled us for almost year because we wanted to open a kid bank account for SD and she did not. She convinced SD that it was not possible without mom’s consent (see parental alienation, above) and it literally took a meeting with SD, SD’s therapist, mom and dad before mom would say in person to everyone “but of course I think it’s a good idea.” When dad showed everyone her emails saying no, which he had brought to the meeting, she pretended they didn’t exist and the therapist “didn’t think it was productive” to push the issue. This was around the time that I stopped asking myself the existential question: does she know she is lying and think we won’t find out, or is she so sick that she doesn’t care or remember what the truth is. The answer is not important because the way you deal with it is the same either way.
      • Re responding to mom’s current email about not liking the classes six weeks later, the low contact approach would be not to respond. The next lowest contact approach would be something like “I disagree with your understanding of the facts.” The not-low contact approach would be to lay out the full facts and call her on it. You and DH will have to decide what you are going to do long term and then make decisions about each issue in keeping with your long term approach. If you decide to go low contact, people typically suggest that you start with an email to her (copied to SDad and you) explaining that he will only discuss routine parenting issues with her in writing and that he will not be responding to anything that is not kid-related and relevant. Then he has to do it. She will not like it. But eventually she will fall into line and, more importantly, you and DH will have a team approach to dealing with her and she won’t be able to cause as much chaos in your life.

      • Stepmom in Seattle :

        Stepmom,
        I am resonating with everything you wrote — and sending hugs your way. My ex has alienated our older child, though hasn’t succeeded with the younger. Every interaction with the ex has to be as you described above. And also as above, it took me years of therapy, anger and tears to figure that out. To make it even worse, most people have no idea what it’s like to be involved with such a dysfunctional ex (from your position or mine). Thanks for being brave enough to share!

        • Stepmom re: driving and ACT preparing :

          @ Stepmom in Seattle

          One of the most powerful parts of this journey, for me, has been watching my fiance (long story, not yet married) navigate this morass. He is a very smart (like scary physics and math smart) person, and a very warm and loving person, and he was married to their mom for 20 years and was really committed to the marriage. And then she wanted out.

          Watching him go through the process of realizing what he had been living with, and then growing past it so that he can put on his own oxygen mask first and then help his kids — all the while being utterly fair and loving to me, who just happened upon the mess — is remarkable. One time, about three years in, when I was whining about “why do we have to do X [some thing that was the right thing to do but would be a pain] when SHE won’t even Y [twelve things that she should have done, were the right thing for the kids, that the court had ordered her to do, that she had refused to do and had called him names for reminding her to do]?” he looked at me and simply replied: “Because you make a choice every day to do the right thing.”

          Well, that was the end (mostly) of my whining. Because he was right, of course.

          I really can’t imagine what it must be like to have been married to someone who behaves that way. It’s easy for me to hate the behavior because I was never invested in the behav-er. But for him — and for you — it must be very difficult.

    • Just wanted to thank everyone for the advice/commiseration and give a shout of support to everyone with similar issues. Your posts are making me remember that we do overall have a good situation and that this stuff isn’t worth getting bent out of shape over. Thanks!

  17. cartascartas :

    Question about 3/4 length suit jackets. How formal are they considered? Enough to wear to a deposition or to court?

    Also, I know peeptoes can be a no-go in court. But how about something like a depo/client meeting where I’m wearing a full suit?

    • I wear 3/4 length jackets to court for everything except jury trials.

      • Maine Associate :

        Me too.
        As far as the peeptoes, I would see what other women are wearing. In my area they are worn to Court and depositions, but I would not personally feel comfortable wearing them. I wear them to the office only if I have no Court or client meetings.

      • lucy stone :

        I wear 3/4 length jackets for everything except jury trials except in July and August. Our courthouse is over 100 year old, gorgeous, and hot as !#$% in the summer, so I absolutely wear a 3/4 sleeve jacket then.

        I wear peeptoes to city court regularly in the summer and would also do it for a motion hearing, but not a trial of any kind. Our female court commissioners wear them so I feel like that gives us free reign to do so.

    • phillygirlruns :

      3/4 length – are we talking sleeves or jacket length? i would wear a 3/4 sleeve jacket for a deposition but probably not to court. same with peep toe heels. i’ve been to plenty of courtrooms where other attorneys wore both of those things and i’d never think it looked inappropriate, but i wouldn’t do it myself.

    • karenpadi :

      I wear 3/4 sleeve jackets all the time. I’m business casual but I think it would be a good idea to add a watch or bracelet in more formal environments.

    • Former MidLevel :

      I think that 3/4 sleeve jackets are fine for deps/client meetings, unless the client is ultra-formal. Peeptoes are much more of a know-your-office/region thing.

    • My favorite suit has 3/4-length sleeves and I wear it to everything. It is a very formal looking suit because of the type of material and the cut, so I’ve never given it a thought about whether it’s appropriate for court.

      As far as peeptoes, it depends on the situation. I have worn them on a no-court, no client meeting day, but my only peeptoes are more on the casual side. If yours are a more formal shoe, you could give it a try.

      If I wonder whether something’s appropriate, I generally don’t wear it to situations where I need to project confidence because I don’t want it to be distracted by wondering if I’m appropriate. On the other hand, if I feel like a million bucks in something, I try to save those outfits for days I need to feel extra good about myself.

    • I’m not sure I’d wear a 3/4-length sleeve to court, but it might be ok for a depo. I’d probably avoid peep toes.

      I first thought you were talking about those suits with a jacket that hangs down to your knee. Don’t wear those.

    • 3/4 sleeve jackets totally OK for provincial criminal court where I live. If I were appearing in the higher court or the Court of Appeal, I’d have to be robed anyways, so there’s no issue.

      I don’t do peeptoes, but many women I work with do. And I’m pretty sure none of them would wear peeptoes while robed.

    • I’ve worn a 3/4 sleeve jacket and peep toe heels to court. Probably at the same time. And nobody shot me.

      Know your judge/audience, ladies. :)

  18. At the risk of starting something :

    A new poll shows: “51 percent of female voters support Obama and 44 percent Romney.”

    I also read in the NYT on Sunday that when congregants who wanted to adopt but were told that the Mormon church would not help them because the wife worked outside the home came to him for help, Romney “helped” them by redoing their household budget so that the wife “wouldn’t need to work” and the church would help them adopt. The church helped them, and they were able to adopt.

    Here’s my question: as a woman, why would I vote for a man who thinks that the only reason I might want to work is to provide the bare necessities for my household? What about my own professional fulfillment? What about my contact with the outside world? What about maintaining my ability to support our family if something were to happen to my husband (he gets disabled or dies or it turns out he beats me and we have to leave each other)? Or, what about our family wanting more than the bare necessities, which requires two incomes?

    I really wish someone could explain this in a way I can understand.

    BTW, I raised a similar question a few weeks ago about the fact that just because a couple remains married for decades doesn’t mean that they have a good or healthy marriage. Someone explained in response that these couples’ expectations of marriage may be different (not lesser) than mine. I still don’t agree with that strict religious gender role-approach to marriage, but I now understand it thanks to that comment.

    • You don’t have to want to vote for him, and you don’t have to vote for him. thats a personal trait he has. Somepeople would not vote for Clinton, because as a women, why would I vote for a man who thinks female interns exist to fufill my needs and urges? Who think nothing of cheating on their smart talented wives?

      As Prez, he doesn’t have the power to make a rule that says women have to stay in their homes and cook all day. Some people vote (actually prob a lot) based on personality or traits the President has, others based on positions or party alignment.

      Really I almost think you are trying to start something because his work with the Morman church has literally no effect on you whatsoever. You are free to do whatever you want to answer all those questions.

      • karenpadi :

        Actually, his beliefs do have an effect on female voters when he is in office. What if he decides to pursue a personhood amendment to the federal constitution (as he has pledged to do)? Sure, the women on this site can afford a quick trip abroad for a safe ab*rt*on or a year’s worth of contraception. But what about women who can’t? What about the women who rely on Planned Parenthood to plan the size of their families? Romney has said that he wants to shut down and get rid of PP.

        By not allowing women access to basic reproductive healthcare, more oops babies will happen and it will push more women out of the workforce. This has the same practical effect as making a rule that says “women have to stay in their homes and cook all day.”

        • that is completely, completely different. that’s voting on an issue.

        • I don’t think the CFM was saying that Romney’s views on women were entirely out of range. At least, I don’t think so. But, there’s a big jump between that and saying “He is a practicing member of a religion that says that women should be a primary caregiver at home….and helped other practicing members of that religions effectuate that reality…therefore he must think all women should be barefoot and pregnant all the time!!!” is perhaps not the best line of attack.

          Look. Romney s*cks on women’s issues. But we shouldn’t lose focus!

      • THIS! Well said. Many different reasons to vote (or not vote) for someone. Certainly does not mean that you agree with every single thing they do and/or stand for.

      • Good comparison – Clinton support from a feminist perspective has always really bothered me.

        Regarding this issue, my question would be – was the position 1) that someone should stay at home, and, in this case (either for economic reasons or for simple that’s what the couple wants reasons) the wife was best suited, 2) that the couple wanted the wife to stay home but didn’t think that it was financially feasible, and the church helped them do that; or 3) that the woman must stay home in any parenting circumstances, absolutely no matter what her career ambitions, etc. might be? Those are very, very different sets of circumstances. As someone else pointed out, no one made them adopt through the Mormon church.

        Regardless, though, and even if we could know the whole story (which, unless someone decides to investigatively report on the family, seems unlikely – one article in the NYT does not get there), this seems very far removed from presidential issues. A presumably nice couple has a child, and a child who might otherwise have been in a difficult situation has a presumably nice adoptive family – this all sounds like good news to me. (way OT, but did anyone read “Dear Prudence” today with the pregnant 16 year old who encountered the “anti-adoption activitist”? Yikes!)

        Does Joe Biden’s Catholicism bother you, too? Joe Lieberman (2000 Dem VP candidate) belonged to a church that didn’t even allow men and women to sit together in the congregation. Find me a politician who has a religion that I wholeheartedly agree with on every issue, and I’ll be very impressed.

        • jewish anon :

          Lyssa – just a quick clarification because I’m a bit confused by your statement about Joe Lieberman. Lieberman doesn’t belong to a “church” – Jews don’t have church. It’s called synagogue. (Small thing, but it can feel important.) Lieberman is an observant Jew and attends Orthodox (traditional/religious) Jewish synagogues. In Orthodox synagogues, men and women sit separately during religious services. Not sure what that has to do with policy positions or women working/staying at home.

          • That’s the point, it doesn’t have anything to do with it. But if you are going to take it and imply stuff like the OP did, you’d say “as a women, I don’t know how I can vote for a man who think a woman is not good enough to occupy the same physical space as a man during orhtodox services”

          • Well, separate seating in Judaism is not necessarily a subordination/inequality issue–it certainly can be (or can be a component of it), but it’s not across the board. IMO, it would be like saying that Catholicism bothers you because women cannot become priests.

        • another anon Jew :

          In fact, the rules for orthodox shul services are because women are considered more spiritual, basically “better” than men. They are exempt from many time-bound rituals, and sit separate basically because men distract too easily. Not because women are inferior. Also, I’m not aware of any Jews out there advocating women stay home and out of the workplace. (Ok, maybe a few on the fringes, but there’s always one out there, you know?)

          Just a little Judaic religious theory there for ‘ya. Personally, I think most religion is silly when you get right down to the logic of it, but I still vote every 4 years and I have yet to see a non-religious candidate. I don’t have much worry that any of them are going to try and institute a Church of the US. Or Mormon Temple. Or US Shul.

        • At the risk of starting something :

          Actually, I am Jewish. I was raised Reform and am a practicing Reconstructionist. I refuse to go to services where I have to sit separately from the men because I disagree with that aspect of Orthodox/Conservative/traditional/whatever Judaism so strongly. (Exceptions for funerals of people I loved etc.)

          So, when Lieberman was running for VP ( I don’t live in CT, so never had to consider it wrt his senatorial campaigns), I very seriously considered whether I wanted to vote for him because I know what his views of the world and how women and girls should and should not interact with it are. In the end, of course, as between Lieberman as VP or Bush as P, I voted from Gore and Lieberman. And we wall know how *that* turned out . . .

          But, yes, Lieberman’s separate-sitting brand of Judaism bothered me in the same way, even though I am myself Jewish.

      • SoCalAtty :

        cfm – I could hug you. I feel like a lot of people vote based on personality traits or ideas that are really issues that the president has 0 power to effectuate in reality. I’m not saying that the OP is doing this at all, but the general public sure does.

        I try and vote not for who I like, but for the candidate that I agree with most on issues the president actually has power over.

    • karenpadi :

      I’m confused by it too. I am close to two conservative women: a high school best friend who really does work at Focus on the Family (but is the main breadwinner for her husband and two kids) and another best friend who is a very conservative Catholic who just invested $$$ in law school for herself.

      They both lean towards Romney and away from feminist issues. I’ve tried asking them about this cognitive dissonance–being a female breadwinner and heavily investing in her career–of being “for” women who stay at home and submit to a husband. They don’t see how I’m confused. It makes perfect sense to them to vote for a man who doesn’t think they should have careers at all. It comes off to me as “do as I say but not as I do.”

      So no help, just commiseration.

      • oh my god. It is shocking to me sometimes how liberals can put words in a politicians mouth and think its fine, but think its horrendous when “rednecks” and “hicks” do it.

        Romney has never said a woman’s place is at home and she should submit to her husband. Please point it out if he has.

        sometimes feel like I’m the last rational liberal on earth.

        • something started :

          you may be ;)

        • karenpadi :

          I was unclear. It’s my friends who are “for” women to stay at home and submit to their husbands. I look to a candidate’s religion only to see how their religion informs policy positions.

          • Just for the record, the Catholic church does not preach that women should be submissive to their husbands. So I’m going to have to question whether they, or at least the Catholic one, are really for that.

          • You have friends who are “for” women staying at home and submitting to their husbands. that has nothing to do with politics.

        • Well, Romney was pretty cagey/no-commenty about that Lily Ledbetter law about unfair pay. Probably framed it as not liking the details, but it’s something to be aware of if you are concerned about issues that may be of more interest to (many, not all) women.

    • Okay, I’m far from a Romney fan, but I’d highly doubt that you’ve properly described his position. You may have loosely described the Mormon churches’ position — especially at the time (quite awhile ago, I’d imagine). But the people we are talking about were, presumably, practicing Mormons who were committed to adopting through the Mormon church. It wasn’t like he took these women and locked them up at home and cackled while he was doing it. Those couples could have adopted through other organizations probably, but they chose the Mormon church.

      Look, there are lots of things to hate on Romney for…but this battle is one that seems a little bit stilted. If you’re going to hold every member of a church responsible for every tenant of its faith, then I presume you also don’t vote for even Democratic members of the Catholic church?

      • thank you. well said.

      • karenpadi :

        I vote based on policy positions. I acknowledge that religion informs those decisions. So religion is a barometer for how a candidate will approach issues while in office. Compliance with, and breaks from, religious tenants are very telling. I wouldn’t vote for a pro-life Catholic like Rick Santorum but I did vote for pro-choice Catholic in John Kerry.

        • This is actually precisely my point. You should be focusing on his policy positions, which do — without question — s*ck. But focusing on how he helped willing Mormon mothers become adoptive parents according to the churches’ rules? That’s not going to get us very far.

          Anyway…I feel like we’re going in the same direction, we’re just butting heads on procedural language. :-P

      • Agreed. And, in the end, he was *helping* those people by giving them an option to adopt. They didn’t have to take it, but he was giving them options.

      • I'm a Democrat :

        And FWIW, Romney has hired plenty of women.

    • something started :

      If you actually believe Romney thinks all women of America, including you, only want to work to provide bare necessities, then don’t vote for him. Call me crazy, but I suspect this is not the case. Sorry, but questions like this drive me bonkers.

    • Anne Shirley :

      Because you care about more than just one issue. Like voting for Obama, even though you think he’s a coward for waiting 3 years for his views on marriage to evolve.

    • I don’t mean this to attack you, but you’re not going to be able to understand it. I don’t understand it. The thing you have to do is respect that people in this country are (thankfully) allowed to hold all types of different beliefs and make their individual choices to support a candidate they feel comfortable with. I’m sure there are women who believe their role is to be in the home and find it refreshing that he helped these families figure a way out to have a child. There are some things you are just never going to understand, but have to accept that people think differently.

    • downstream :

      “I really wish someone could explain this in a way I can understand.”

      Really? That’s what you wish?

      • I kind of wish someone could explain to me how he’s gotten as far as he has without a backbone (though with copious amounts of hairspray, I presume).

        :-)

        Tip your waitresses, I’ll be here all week.

        • (Not to heckle you, but the answer is: money.)

          //Tips server//

        • A friend told me she thought Romney was much like the Mormon church itself, chameleon-like when it/he saw the political expediency of changing. No polygamy if you want to be a state? Oh well, obviously we were wrong before. Becoming inconvenient and politically damaging to not allow black men into the priesthood? Well, obviously we didn’t know then what we know now. A GOP Presidential candidate can’t be pro-choice? Well, I really never SAID I was pro-choice. Etc, etc.

    • Gail the Goldfish :

      If you can figure out where Mitt Romney stands on an issue, you’re doing better than Mitt Romney.

      (Sorry, couldn’t resist a little political humor there)

      • excellent. And for the record, I’d laugh just as much if that were about Obama.

        • BigLaw Optimist :

          I’m a Romney supporter and I found that funny. :) You have to be able to laugh at yourself (and your party/candidate/etc)!

      • Alanna of Trebond :

        So I doubt I’m going to vote for Mitt Romney, mainly because of his stance of tax issues (Although I actually really enjoyed the Op-Ed by Campbell Brown in the Nytimes this weekend), but I sort of think it is reassuring that he has changed his “mind” so many times in blatant pandering because he doesn’t really believe some (or most!) of the ridiculous things he says, but is doing it to get votes. (For the record, I am pro-gay marriage, pro-life & pro-contraception, so I skew Democrat).

    • Some voters vote on issue(s).

      Some voters vote on the candidate’s personal life details or the impression s/he gives off.

  19. Ok fellow grammar snobs… is it

    “Court of Appeals’s opinion”
    or

    “Court of Appeals’ opinion”

    ?

    And if you have a rule, please share because I would like to cite the rule and not ‘this wonderful blog that I follow.” :)

    TIA

    • karenpadi :

      Take the easy way out: “the opinion of the Court of Appeals”.

      • That’s what I was going to post! I think that the Chicago Manual of Style has actually changed its approach on this, though (used to allow the “s” in this case, but no longer does).

      • That was my first suggestion (another associate was puzzling the issue) but I was trying to get her a more definitive answer. (that does seem to be the easiest answer though!)

      • Former MidLevel :

        This was going to be my suggestion. I don’t know what the context is, but I would be more likely to say something like “the Ninth Circuit’s opinion.”

        • State court, so it has to be “First Court of Appeals’s opinion.” or “Opinion of the First Court of Appeals.”

          • Former MidLevel :

            Got it. Is it an opinion in the same case (e.g., on remand)? If so, I would phrase it more actively, like “the First Court of Appeals held _____.” If not, I would refer to the name, e.g. “in Bilski v. Kappos, ________.”

          • karenpadi :

            Former MidLevel,

            Bilski! You must be a patent lawyer like me or a litigator who takes patent cases! Yay!

          • Former MidLevel :

            Yes, I love me some IP. :)

      • Or “the Appellate Court’s opinion”

    • According to my trust Bedford Handbook which I got in freshman English (15+ years ago) but keep around for cases like this: you use s’ when the noun is plural, you uses s’s when the noun is singular.

    • Other questions to spur debate.

      Two spaces after a period or one.

      Oxford comma — yay or nay.

      (Haha. Just kidding…please don’t argue about these, my poor nerdy mind will explode).

      Oh — and I’ve always used Court of Appeals’ — but at my last job a few of the partners used Appeals’s — so I’d do what they preferred. But I also like karenpadi’s suggestion. :-)

    • According to the Chicago Manual of Style, the possessive of most singular nouns is formed by adding an apostrophe and an “s.” Since “Court of Appeals” is a singular noun phrase, you may write “Appeals’s.” However, the Manual also states as an exception that for names ending in an “eez” sound, you just add the apostrophe and no “s.”

      Apparently, “feelings on these matters sometimes run high” so.. do what you wish. You might consider rephrasing to say the X Circuit’s opinion is or in X v. Y, the Appellate Court stated that..

      :-)

      • Not to geek out on a geeking out, but I think that because “Appeals” is plural (even though “Court of Appeals” is singular), the rule requires only one apostrophe.

        • Agree it’s plural, so would be Appeals’. But then I got the Oakland A’s thing wrong the other day, so don’t trust me.

    • Anonymous :

      Chicago Manual of Style says if you can hear the extra “s” sound, add the extra “s.” If not, don’t.

      i.e. Jesus’s robe because it sounds like Jesus-es, but officers’ uniforms because it sounds like officers.

      So here, don’t add the “s.”

    • downstream :

      “Court of Appeals” is singular (plural would be Courts of Appeals) so grammatically, it should be “Court of Appeals’s.”

      That said, doing it that way is going to raise eyebrows. People are going to think you’re wrong. And doing it like “Court of Appeals’” is also going to raise eyebrows because it’s actually wrong. So I’d avoid the issue entirely and write “The opinion of the Court of Appeals is …”

    • Here’s another viewpoint: “Court of Appeals” is an adjective in that sentence, not requiring a possessive of any kind.

    • Weird. I’m pretty sure that in Canada it’s just the “Court of Appeal”. Maybe I’m wrong though…

      • Equity's Darling :

        You’re correct, in Canada is it just the “Court of Appeal” (at least in my province…but I think elsewhere too). Apparently the powers that be decided to dodge the grammatical minefield that we see in this discussion.

        • In California it is also “Court of Appeal” or “Courts of Appeal” not “Court of Appeals”. It would be (for example), “the Fourth District Court of Appeal’s decison” or “Courts of Appeal have universally held”.

    • Either is correct.

      USian English used to lean toward the “Everybody but Jesus” Rule, where the possessive of any proper noun (ending in s or not) was formed by adding apostrophe + s. So it would be:

      “Doris‘s coat” or
      “the IRS‘s budget” or
      “the Court of Appeals‘s decision”
      but “Jesus’ gym bag.”

      However, that “rule” has been sliding out of favor, and most people do what looks/sounds “right” to them, and that’s fine.

  20. In my opinion, this is the best grammar resource on the Intertoobz: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/621/01/
    add ‘s to the singular form of the word (even if it ends in -s)
    For plural, proper nouns that are possessive, use an apostrophe after the ‘s’
    add ‘s to the plural forms that do not end in -s
    add ‘ to the end of plural nouns that end in -s
    add ‘s to the end of compound words
    add ‘s to the last noun to show joint possession of an object

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