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And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
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KC
What a gorgeous red! Really pretty.
MG
Any advice for a 5th year associate on how to manage junior associates? I’ve been told to manage a few first years on different projects and they don’t seem to get a few things: citing state rather than federal law, misspelling proper names that are easily Google-able with the acknowledgement “(Sp?),” impatience with number of rounds of edits. The one that irks me the most is trying to assign back work to me that I’ve given to them. Gr…
k-padi
You gotta be tough. Turn all their sloppiness back on them.
Citing state law: specifically assign them (in writing) a task to find Federal support.
Misspelling proper names: fix it once. Then tell them to google it.
Number of rounds of edits: stay tough and don’t acknowledge those complaints. Be sure that you aren’t changing expectations with each draft (it helps to assign drafts in pieces). If it’s going to take a few rounds, tell the 1st year that.
Assigning work back to you: Ask if they need clarification and assign it right back to them.
If a draft is seriously deficient after many drafts and rounds of comments and setting of clear, actionable expectations: send the draft back within 5 minutes of receiving it with a stinging note like “This contains several errors and doesn’t look like a final draft.”
anon
Re: Changing expectations. YES. I am in this boat now where the expectations seem to go all over the map with each draft. Then we both get frustrated because I don’t know what the goal is, and my boss thinks I’m dense. Do they have an example of a final product that is up to your standards?
The stuff that is easily searchable online is inexcusable, though.
a passion for fashion
this is what happens in law. expectations change. you have to get used to it and if youre not sure what the goal is, ask! repeat it back to the person giving the assignment — i.e., you dont want me to do X, you want me to do Y.
Also, except in very, very rare circumstances, any “draft” you give anyone (more senior associate, jr partner, sr partner, client, etc) should be in your best and final form. that means no typos, proper formatting, case cites etc.
k-padi
This. And regarding “a final product that’s up to your standards”, sorry, ain’t gonna happen. The law is an art and a science. Facts change, standards change, practices and styles change. That’s why we can bill hundreds of dollars an hour for our expertise.
First-years can look through the document manager and find something I’ve done before. In fact, I encourage it. But it will be irrelevant to the current task, out-of-date, and not what I expect from him/her. So use it as a guide but not as a template or a crutch. Don’t think that because it contains a typo that sloppiness is acceptable.
Susan
Mmm. Sometimes I prefer to have a rough draft for major briefs just so I know they are in the ball park in terms of content and substance. The editing is not as important to me as their ability to organize their thoughts and convey the argument. But, I tell them that upfront. On the other hand, if it is a two or three page motion, I expect to be able to file it with little to no changes, especially if I gave direction as to what I wanted in the motion to begin with.
goldribbons
I might return a draft and say something like, “feel free to google any names/words you don’t know how to spell.” It will only take once (hopefully).
b23
This seems a little wishy washy to me. I would say “Please Google any words you do not know how to spell.” It’s not that they have the discretion to do so; it’s an expectation.
Mouse
Sounds like you’re dealing with associates who went straight through. Don’t they realize there are hundreds of others who would gladly take their job and do it well?
Also, I once told a younger relative I was helping with application essays when they were applying to only Ivies to “remove all contractions,” and their response to my carefully bulleted edit/comment list was via text message: “What’s a contraction?”
One thing to remember while being critical: a partner once called me out on a spelling because HE didn’t check and assumed I was wrong, when in fact, I had checked and was correct.
k-padi
FYI, it’s not just associates who “went straight through”. Honestly, the quality of work product I see is completely independent of whether the 1st year “went straight through” or not. I see lots of the same mistakes with “non-traditionals” with a chip on their shoulder.
FWIW, IMHO, people who went straight through are easier to work with because they don’t get defensive when you criticize their work.
SFBayA
I find that the difference is between straight-throughs who never worked a menial job (and are often special snowflakes) and the straight-throughs who are former waitstaff/retail/baristas/nannies/college house painters/responsible for younger siblings/on your feet all day drones.
Yes, re-set expectations. I used to ask to only receive “your best work” presuming that would mean it’s as flawless as they can possibly get it, but that was not specific enough. Now I specify perfect language, no typos, perfect formatting, bluebooked, etc.
Anonymous
One of my bosses told me everything I give him should represent my best and final work, regardless of whether I know that he is going to redline it like crazy. Turning in things with “sp?” is how associates get a reputation for being lazy, and why I choose our law clerk over some associates as often as I can get away with it.
a passion for fashion
YES. This. I hated it as a sr ssociate when i would get work from jr associates in cr*ppy format b/c they either didnt care since i wasnt a partner or thought i didnt care since i wasnt a partner. it matters.
Ellen
Since I am the equeivealant of a 5th year associate, I can tell you it is not easy, even tho I do NOT manage any one (other then the manageing attorney). There is a young kid who’s a relative of the manageing partner’s wife, that is interneing here who’s a 2nd year, and the manageing partner want’s him to trail me to figure out all of the detail’s of what I do (he is probabebley going to be hired after he gradueate’s law school), and so far, he is VERY ARROGANT. It seem’s as if he know’s EVERYTHING, and he is goieing to BROOKLYN Law. I supose he will get alot more humbel after he take’s the BAR EXAM, but for now, he think’s he is some kind of JUSTICE KARDOZO or something. He keep’s quoting that guy like he is GOD. I think Kardozo was on the NY Supreme Court 100 year’s ago. That is NOT now. FOOEY!
I have to be nice to him b/c Margie will get mad if I do not, but he is not respectful genereally. He does NOT like to do resereach and like’s to run up my LEXIS bill. He also pick’s his nose alot, which is GROSS. I should tell someone at work, but at least the HIVE knows about him. FOOEY!
Alanna of Trebond
As a first year associate (who went straight through!)–I am most receptive to feedback when I know the assigning associate/partner means well. Usually, they do this by saying something like (“I know this is a hard transition”/”I made this mistake when I was X”). That being said, I work very hard and I’ve still gotten lots of feedback that the assigning attorney likely thought was extremely obvious (e.g. using two spaces, using our firm’s internal style, bringing post-its to depositions, how to answer the phone properly.) I can usually tell by tone how high level an edit is–usually the first round will be high-level feedback like the brief is too in the weeds, the deposition outline is unclear, etc., which indicates I need to do a total overhaul than when I get line edits.
LeeB
Non-lawyer here. Can someone please define ” went straight through”?
mascot
Entered law school right after undergrad, as opposed to taking a few years to work in between.
LeeB
Thanks. My lawyer-speak vocabulary expands yet again!
rosie
It is annoying to get the feedback you’ve categorized as “extremely obvious” (I know exactly what you’re talking about) when it’s an issue that is the person’s (or firm’s) preference, not a grammatically right/wrong thing unless it’s couched in “you wouldn’t have known this, but from now on, please do _______.” I dislike when someone reviewing my work makes a big deal about changing 12 pt Times to 13 pt Arial because of her preference when she’s never announced that preference. It’s fine to change it, but don’t act like I’m incompetent.
I don’t think that this was the type of error that MG was talking about, but I just saw this and needed a slight vent/threadjack.
anon o
I’m not a lawyer but just to defend I had someone reporting to me once who often would forget things and then when I later corrected him would secretly seethe that I never told him anything – or he would get upset and claim he was never told. I would CONSTANTLY find emails to him saying something along the lines of “as per our discussion on font size, here’s the information on font sizes.” after he had come in my office and gotten upset because I was unreasonably acting as if he had been told about font sizes. I didn’t expect him to remember every. single. thing. I told or emailed him but on the other hand, how am I supposed to know what he did and didn’t forget? His job was highly detail-oriented and filled with a lot of information and I would never expect him to remember everything, but I certainly would correct him when he was wrong.
Just pointing out the other side…and my boss is constantly not telling me things and shouting at me on the phone when I try to ask him questions so I totally get both sides, believe me!!
Divaliscious11
Part of that is your job, to understand what the person you are working for wants…. If you work for more than one partner, and they each have a different style – you need to know that….
Rural Juror
Today a partner scolded me with “don’t EVER shorten 2013 to 13 in work for me!!”. I had named a draft word doc as “agreement x – 12 Feb 13 3pm”
anon
I think one of the biggest things I’ve been learning in my 5 plus years working as an editor in the publishing world is to not take things personally and to try your best not to get defensive when someone is giving you feedback. You are lucky the person is taking the time to explain something to you. By getting hostile and arguing over small points, you will discourage your supervisors from approaching you in the future, and the quality of your work will not improve. Many things about editing and formatting are subjective. It’s often just a matter of style. But sometimes, if no one points it out to you, you’ll just carry on with a blind spot about it and never know it’s not fitting the company’s needs. Both parties need to be tactful about it, but you can’t always expect your supervisors to smooth things over and pat you on the back when they’re giving you feedback.
Curiouser Anon
Hi anon,
I would love to talk to you a bit about your role in publishing… Would you be open to an exchange of emails or even an informational interview? No idea if this will reach you, but I’m really interested in the field…
Divaliscious11
I’m going to push back a bit here. Feedback should not have to come with a sugar coating or self deprecation, real or feigned. Unless the person giving you feedback really dislikes you (and that will become apparent) you should assume it is not personal, and that any feedback is for you to grow. And if you get the same feedback, then that should be your red flag to fix or ask more questions because you aren’t getting something…..
cbackson
Yeah, there is honestly only so much hand-holding I can do, especially on 2400 billable a year. This is doubly so when the mistake is due to sloppiness or lack of attention to detail (my pet peeve: inconsistent use of defined terms).
Alanna of Trebond
I totally understand what you’re saying about hand-holding, but the OP asked for advice, so mine was targeted at the ideal situation to have people want to listen to you. Obviously, I try to take feedback no matter how it is given, but it is easier with those caveats (which I think are often true–many senior attorneys have told me that they look back and cringe on the mistakes they made as juniors).
Also, pretty sure everyone at my firm bills at least 2400 a year, and if the junior does it right, you won’t have to waste your time redoing it. It also makes for a much better workplace environment.
Susan
Two spaces? Are you referring to putting two spaces after the period at the end of the sentence because that is no longer the standard. The standard now is that there is no need to two spaces and my guess is that the partner who thinks otherwise is older.
JadeMoon
Our research director started the “new” one space after a period notion in our office, but it was vetoed by our top boss; moreover, the federal district court sent out a memo about retaining the double space between sentence s and also wanting larger font size. The only single space after period I see now is when the document’s margins are justified on the right.
And since I’m not fond of our research director I just assumed that that was one of his east coast affectations. Is it now in style manuals?
anon
That is so gross and out of date! Look at any professionally published book. There will never be two spaces after a period. Two spaces after a period was only done because of the way text looks when it’s created by a typewriter, but now word processing systems have changed that.
Wannabe Runner
“Gross”? That’s a weird thing to say.
It doesn’t matter what “the standard” is now. If my managing partner or firm policy or judge/court wants two spaces, I’m putting in two spaces.
That is just not a fight I’m willing to fight against them.
TBK
If anyone’s a repeat offender, sit his/her @ss down and say “I know it’s your first year, but here are some things that are expected around here.” Also be clear that anything they don’t catch is something you’re going to have to handle on top of all the rest of your work, and that if something gets through, the partner will blame you. Because, in a law firm, there is NO leeway for mistakes. One typo in a final brief that goes to a client may seem like nothing, but we all know it’s a BIG DEAL for someone paying what firms cost, so it really is important for each person in the chain to scrub and scrub each draft to make sure nothing ever slips through. (I didn’t appreciate this until I was much more senior.) Any mistake will make the partner look bad, who’ll take it out on you, which is why you’re being hard on them. If they understand why you’re being such a b—ch, they should be more receptive to your criticism. But cut them some slack, too. Law firms are insane. There is no place else I know of where people get that bent out of shape over a mis-placed comma or putting a space or not after a period in a citation. They’re not likely to “get” it when they first walk in the door.
Em
As a lawyer who’s not at a big firm, I think this comment makes a ton of sense. Because the fact is that other places – even other legal workplaces – do have different expectations. (For instance, at my mid-size firm, we don’t expect first drafts to have properly formatted citations; it’s considered something that’s worked out at the final stages on the theory that there’s no point in dealing with that until you know if the cite is even going to be in the pleading/memo/whatever. Similarly, nobody would really care if an associate had put in a note to check the spelling of a name instead of doing it on the first round.) So it’s not reasonable to expect associates to come in knowing this stuff, even if seems obvious after having been there a while. However, it is reasonable to expect associates to live up to the expectations that are placed on them and to follow conventions that they are told about, and that should be communicated to them explicitly.
Susan
This!!! God. the comments make me wonder how anyone survives in Big Law.
Divaliscious11
You figure it out – Partner A likes X, Partner B likes Y etc…… And ask questions! After moving a comma back and forth 3 times, ask what is being emphasized and why – while you could have frustrating senior associate, there could also be a drafting challenge due ro client indecision. Simply knowing that, can make things less frustrating…..
Anon
What a charming bag.
Regular poster going anon for this.
I’m reading application essays for my alma mater. I’ve done it for a few years now and have read hundreds of them. I read one last night that I don’t think was written by the applicant, a high school senior. It was unusually well-written compared to even top-tier essays – but what really struck me was that the prose and perspective are very odd for an 18 year old. I read it to someone else who agreed that it would be a very unusual teenager. For reference, I knew a handful of people in high school who had won literary awards and had published works.
I’m not sure what to do about it. I’m not given any information about the person, so I don’t know if they have credentials or experience that would explain it. I googled key lines and got no hits, but someone else could have written it for them. Their other essay was exceptional but much more in line with the typical high schooler essay, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I feel sheepish alerting the admission committee without any real proof, since that would be horrible for the student.
Anyway, it brought up the topic with my husband, who felt there was nothing wrong with an applicant using someone else’s essay. That surprised me. I think a student can and should receive constructive review but that every word should be their own. He felt it was reprehensible to use someone else’s work in a class, but that an application was completely different. He couldn’t explain why he made that distinction.
Long story short, I’m curious what others think about cheating on entrance essays?
S
Totally wrong. Can you just informally ask your contact on the admissions committee how they normally approach such suspicions with no proof?
Meg Murry
Yes, this. I wouldn’t mention the specific student, just the situation as you put it here: “the prose and perspective are very odd for an 18 year old” and it doesn’t match up writing style-wise with the 2nd essay. Ask if there is a procedure for “fishy” essays, whether you suspect passing off someone else’s work, or just VERY heavy editing.
Also, any chance the prose and perspective is off because the person is a non-traditional student and is not a typical 18 year old high school senior? Just for arguments sake?
Anon
My initial response to the essay was that they were non-traditional. It’s not only expertly crafted – it’s very retrospective and sounds like someone older reminiscing about their youth. But their second essay speaks about high school in the present tense, so I assume they are in high school.
I’ll consider that approach. I’d be interested to know their approach at the least.
Niktaw
Could the retrospective be a literary device, the kid writing on behalf of his/her middle-aged self?
momentsofabsurdity
I think it is 100% reprehensible to use someone else’s application essay. Committees are deciding on your admission based on what you represented as your own story. If it isn’t, your admission was given under dishonest pretenses.
That said, in this case and with no proof I would just keep your suspicions to yourself. Yes, it’s possible, for example, he hired someone else to write his essay. But with no way of proving that, it’s unfair to punish an applicant based on a “weird feeling.”
lola
Totally disagree with your husband! Absolutely I think it’s considered cheating and is completely wrong. The admissions essay is to admit you and show your own work, not someone else’s. Maybe you’re not getting a class grade, but in some respects you’re gaining admission into a school which is arguably worth more. Honestly, I would bring it up to your contact at your alma mater. I wouldn’t say anything, just that you want a second opinion on one essay.
Then again, I have always taken cheating very, very seriously, and not turned the other way when other people have. It’s a moral issue to me. My parents, the teachers, taught me that way.
Jenna Rink
Yes! I think cheating on an admissions essay is far, far worse than cheating on an exam. I would absolutely let the admissions office know about your feeling. They might read it in the context of the rest of the application and think it sounds fine, but they should have the opportunity to investigate. I’m certain they wouldn’t deny the person admission based simply on a funny feeling an essay reader has, but it will give them the opportunity to handle it. If the student really did cheat, wouldn’t you want the acceptance they might otherwise receive to go to someone who actually deserves it?
cc
That’s not your actual question though right? I mean, I think most people would say that you can’t cheat on entrance essays. I don’t know why your husband feels that way but my impression is that that feeling is well outside the norm. If your real question is should you say anything to the admissions committee, I don’t think you should. You don’t know whether they cheated.
Anon
It is my question! It’s not just my husband, who like I say below is an honest person. I’ve actually several times in social situations had a parent say openly that their child did not write their own essay, primarily or at all. For them to be so open about it made me think that it must be common and accepted.
It’s a huge relief to hear that I’m not alone here.
Lyssa
That’s really troubling. I’ve never heard parents say that (though I don’t know many parents of college-aged students), but I have been bothered in the past about parents who appear to be openly doing virtually all of the work in children’s science fair projects and similar, so it doesn’t strike me as too far-fetched.
Sad, though.
Anon
Girl, you totally don’t have to reply to this post, but just wanted to say that I’ve been thinking of you and your little one and I hope all is going well!
Lyssa
Thanks so much, Anon! I gave an update below. (it’s a happy one)
Texas
I have been opening greatly assisting and/or doing the science fair projects since it became patently clear that the schools want the parents to do exactly that. This is the only explanation for rewarding parent-projects with awards for the science fair while pushing child-made projects to the side. Of course, I explain to my kid that the project is a waste of time and the sooner we get it done he can do something worthwhile. We never put so much effort into the idiotic projects that he is in danger of winning. It is JUST TO GET IT DONE.
Anon
Honestly, I would be pretty alarmed to learn that my husband had such a flexible moral code.
Anon
Fair assessment off the internet, but if you knew my husband, you’d be just as surprised as I was. He’s typically honest to a fault, so I thought that my moral compass must have been way off.
I suspect that he simply doesn’t appreciate what college entrance essays mean. He went to a public school which, at the time, didn’t have any real application process. He showed up a day or two before classes started his freshman year and just signed up.
Blonde Lawyer
Could the applicant be someone who speaks English as a second language? A close friend of mine from high school did not speak like a “normal” teenager and speaks extremely formal to this day. He learned English and Spanish simultaneously as one parent was a native spanish speaker and the other parent a native english speaker. The spanish speaking parent’s extended family spoke no english. He also lived the first portion of his life in a country that spoke a third language. He wasn’t around english speaking children until 8th grade or so and his habits were already formed.
Anon
Good point, as we do get quite a few non-native English speakers, but it’s not the case here based on name and details mentioned in the essay. I know the style you’re referencing, and it’s not the same as what I’m reading with this one.
TOS
I was pregnant while volunteering as an English conversation partner. The wonderful person congratualted me on “procreating” :) It still makes me smile. Talk about your formal use! I said we talk about the people (including developing baby) + feelings more than being pregnant or “with child”…
I went through a phase of writing very formally as a teen. I can remember my comp teacher asking me if I was comfortable with the style. If I was speaking about something formal after writing about something formal, yes. if it was casual group work and review, no. Which pushed my thoughts into – there will be an interview, right? If the writing doesn’t seem to match the person’s verbal presentation, and other background materials, OK, they don’t get in.
Anon
Haha, love that. As an undergraduate, I volunteered heavily with the international student exchange program and heard many charming phrases. Ah, textbooks. I hope I sounded as charming when I was abroad!
I’m actually not sure about interviews. They didn’t do them back in my day, then I heard they started after I graduated, but then I think I heard they stopped. They’ve had a huge surge in applicants in the past few years, so I doubt it. I got roped into reading essays because they were struggling to keep up. I think I’d have heard about a need for interviewers.
Wannabe Runner
I also did something like this for my school. It was my job to do the initial screen, with notes to the committee. I’d note that it doesn’t match the writing style of the other essay, and seemed a little unusual to you.
I disagree with your husband. Cheating is cheating. But it sounds like he doesn’t really have familiarity with applying to schools.
NOLA
I think it’s cheating and the sad thing is, it would probably extend into college. If I had it, I’d run it through something like SafeAssign to see if it matches, but it’s probably just someone else’s essay. Pretty sad, I’d say.
Pancakes
Would alerting the adcom really be an issue? They can check out the person’s background, and if all seems like it’d fit, then perhaps this person really did write an exceptional essay.
Is your alma mater a school that has undergraduate interviews? If so, perhaps any discrepancies can be sussed out that way.
Jill
Yeah, I’d be most suspicious about the discrepancy in writing style between the two essays, unless they are very different in subject or format.
cbackson
For what it’s worth, I was something of a prodigy with regard to the written word (think reading at a college level before grade school), and more than once I had a teacher suggest that I’d cheated on an essay. Unless the difference between the two essays is such that you wouldn’t have thought that the same person could have written them, I wouldn’t pursue this suspicion absent corroboration.
Also, with regard to an unusual outlook/perspective for the student’s age, well, Edna St. Vincent Millay was an award-winning poet by twenty, and Mary Shelley was 21 or 22 when Frankenstein was published.
momentsofabsurdity
Today I was IMing my sister when her boss called her into his office for a quick 5 minute chat. I was super worried she was going to get laid off (this same thing played out, over IM, with a friend of mine), but she got a bonus!
2013 has been a rough year for me and the people around me lately (breakup, awkward time period while I’m still working before starting grad school and my career feels stalled, a friend is having a major medical crisis, another good friend is dealing with a parent’s terminal illness, another (above) was recently laid off…) and I’m SO relieved to finally have good news to celebrate about for someone in my life.
And hopefully, this amusing link makes someone else laugh too:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/przshly07/what-its-like-to-be-a-20something-as-told-by-mean-8ttl
Leigh
Definitely made me laugh. Thanks for sharing!
anon 4 this
I have some weird family drama that I’m not dealing with very well and just wanted to know if the Hive has any insights.
My mother moved to Western Europe last year. In January, I spent $1000+ on a plane ticket to visit her. I followed all the rules: talked to her in advance, made sure she was available, even booked the plane ticket while she was on the phone.
A week later, my sister (in a neighboring state) posts on FB that our mother is coming to the US to visit her! The visit is just before my visit to see my mother. I expressed by disappointment to my mother about this turn of events (at least as best a person raised with Catholic guilt can). My mother explained it was a last minute trip and she was hoping to schedule some medical appointments while in the U.S.
Mom is in the U.S. now and sent me a postcard from my sister’s. Then she sends me an email saying that she isn’t planning anything over my trip there because we can just “hang out” in the tiny town she’s living in. We will spend one morning helping out at a soup kitchen though. Oh, and by the way, she can’t pick me up from the airport–I’ll just have to take the subway and commuter train myself.
I am p*ssed. First then visit with my sister, then the lack of planning. I am traveling thousands of miles and I want to do more than “hang out” (I enjoy soup kitchens but not as something I travel thousands of miles to do one morning). I’ve convinced her to plan a trip to visit some family friends one day but she’s resisting doing anything else.
I’ve expressed my disappointment over and over again using the finest Catholic techniques I learned from Mom. She apologizes because she “didn’t realize”. If the plane tickets were refundable, I’d cancel. I’m seriously considering booking some solo travel after seeing family friends–defeating the purpose of the trip (seeing Mom).
Help? Sympathy?
lola
That sounds terrible :( I’d be destroyed at that. I’m so sorry – just do what you think is best for you, whatever that may be. Big hugs.
Bonnie
Be up front with her and say that you spent $1,000 on the flight and want to do more than hang out at home. If you know anything about the location, suggest things you’d like to do with her.
mascot
1) Is she ok medically? Unplanned trips for medical appts seems a bit odd.
2) Can you plan activities yourself for y’all to do?
3) Maybe she just wanted some one on one time with you and your sister. I get that it would have been nice to see you in her trip here, but I don’t see that as something to be that angry about?
anon 4 this
1) Yes. She has a managed chronic condition. She just wants a doctor who speaks English (nevermind that most people in her new country speak English).
2) I am trying but meeting a brick wall. It isn’t medical, she claims it isn’t financial, and she guilts me about not wanting to see her new life (I don’t mind spending 2-3 days at her place but not the whole week).
3) She’s retired. I work and vacation is dear. If she had planned her trip to my sister’s better, I would have been up to hosting her for a long weekend or meeting with her at my sister’s.
mascot
Gotcha. I would be annoyed then too. I agree with the others’ advice about planning some fun things for yourself, regardless of whether she can come.
anon
I think your best approach is to treat it as a vacation for yourself, during which you will see a little bit of your mom. Don’t wait for her to plan things; instead, plan things for yourself. Then tell her that on Tuesday, you’ll take the train to Paris and spend two days there; she’s welcome to join you, but you’re going regardless. And take yourself out for great meals, go to museums, rent a car so you feel mobile and free, do whatever it takes to give yourself a vacation. Her resistance to doing anything is not your problem.
As for your mom showing up in the US right before your trip to see her, I think you just have to let it go, though I would also be furious. Think of it as the flip side to your trip to her. She didn’t consider your wishes or hopes or desires in planning her trip to the US; you don’t need to consider her wishes or hopes or desires in planning your trip to Europe.
Bottom line: you get to go to Europe! Have a wonderful time, with or without your mom.
Pancakes
I 100% agree with this.
I’m sorry your mom is doing this. I’d be livid.
momentsofabsurdity
I think you have to figure out what the purpose of your trip is. I know you said it’s to see your mother, but it also seems like you’ll be upset if you miss doing some of the touristy things in her area. That’s okay – you can go on a trip that has multiple purposes. But I think it’s okay for your mom to opt out of those activities too.
If she traveled to the US to have medical appointments, it sounds like that wasn’t entirely a “fun” trip. I assume she’s older, if she has two grown children, and if she’s just traveled internationally, she may feel too fatigued to put together an awesome agenda of stuff to do. She may think the most fun thing both of you could do is hang around in the house, spending time with one another.
I think it’s okay for your trip to have several purposes – to see your mom, to see the area, to do some different activities and relax on a vacation – but it’s not fair to assume your mom wants to do and be a part of all of them. I think it would be totally find of you to say, “Hey, mom, I’m so excited to see you! But I’d also really like to visit X and do Y, while I’m there. I’m tentatively planning those for the Thursday and Saturday of my visit and obviously, I’d love to have you join me but if you can’t, I understand” and see what she says to that.
New around here
With the exception that I have two sisters and my parents still live in the US, I could have a very similar story. My sisters are worlds closer to each other than I am to either of them, and my parents seem to prefer them too. There are logical reasons for the sister thing (big age gaps) and personality-based reasons for all of it (I’m very, very different — in interests, communication style, lifestyle preferences — than most of my family), but it still stings.
And were I in your shoes (read: at risk of projecting), I suspect I’d be feeling that sting very acutely. Here you’ve made a big, inconvenient, expensive gesture that “should” communicate to your mom that you’re trying hard to be part of her life, and she reciprocates by “proving” that she prefers your sister’s company.
The only advice I might offer is that, if that rings true, you might consider whether you’re (1) angry about this particular series of events or (2) actually angry about this “proving” something much bigger and harder to reconcile yourself to. That might help you form a game plan for figuring out how you want to react. But no matter what, you’ve got my sympathies.
anon 4 this
“Here you’ve made a big, inconvenient, expensive gesture that “should” communicate to your mom that you’re trying hard to be part of her life, and she reciprocates by “proving” that she prefers your sister’s company.”
Wow! That hit me hard. That’s exactly what’s going on. I always thought Mom was fairly equitable between sis and I but now I know who the favorite is.
anon 4 this
Thanks! I appreciate it–I needed some support (my sister thinks the whole situation is a comedy of errors and my Dad says “typical–good thing we’re divorced”).
I’m going to clarify the day we are visiting family friends and tell her I’m going to plan travel for the remaining weekdays (including soup kitchen day as my special passive-aggressive revenge). Before I book it, I’ll ask if she wants to join me. If she doesn’t, her loss.
Bummer
This is a total bummer. Do you think maybe she just felt like she should have a one-on-one visit with your sister since yall are going to have a one-on-one visit shortly thereafter? Do you think your sister could have put the Catholic guilt onto her that you were getting to see her, but she isn’t?
anon 4 this
Entirely possible (and I’m a little mad about that too). I didn’t want to complicate the TJ too much but, yes, also dealing with that.
Pest
Your gripes very petty. You are jealous that she flew to visit your sister and not you. It sounds like she planned her trip to the US after you planned yours, so she knew she would see you soon and so she elected to see your sister on her trip to the US. And she wanted to visit certain doctors for her chronic medical condition. You are unhappy that she has not planned a bunch of fun activities or day trips for you while you visit her. Yet, your mother is managing a chronic condition and says you can do things together in the town. It sounds to me that she is striking a fair balance here between all the different people in her life, including herself, your sister and you. In other words, it’s not all about you.
Chia Pet
Wow, anon 4 this… who knew your mom also posted on this site?!
Seriously though, nothing the OP said made it seem as if it was “all about her”. Your summary above is really nice, but totally misses the point about being considerate towards others. Because let’s face it, it’s not all about the mom either.
Chia Pet
After re-reading Pest’s post, I would guess that there are some cultural differences here. My parents and some of my friends’ parents would summarize the whole thing the way Pest did because the elders are always correct. Obviously, this is just a random guess.
Pest
Chia Pet, your comments about me being her mother and cultural differences are making me chuckle. I’m in my early thirties, and no, I don’t think elders are always right. But, yes, I am not a part of a me-me-me all the time generation.
anon 4 this
Pest, I see where you are coming from. I’m older than you, so I’m not me-me-me generation (which I think is just a label Boomers gave Gen Y to justify their own selfishness but moving on…).
I did work with Mom for weeks to nail down dates between her friends coming to visit and her other commitments. Like most Americans, vacation is limited and actually very difficult for me to take and requires a lot of advance planning. She knows that because she’s encouraged me to leave my job in the past (and go where?) for this reason.
She did plan her trip to my sister’s after I planned mine but only after telling me that she didn’t plan to return to the states at all in 2013. This stung because we have a shared hobby that’s based in the U.S. and not really available in Europe that we can no longer do together (I still do it on my own). I usually spend my vacations with her doing this hobby. But she refused to return to the U.S. to participate when I offered to host her.
Her medical condition? Yeah, it’s really limiting when she spent 3 weeks flitting around Spain, a week hiking in the Rockies with my sister, and is going Alpine skiing next week. Mind you, she didn’t even want to visit her own doctors–they are 2000 miles away from my sister. She just wanted to visit “any doctor in America”. So the medical excuse is a bit bogus.
I know it’s not all about me–it’s why I didn’t push back when she told me she wasn’t going to return to the U.S. this year for our hobby. She was just being thoughtless when she booked her trip to see my sister (who doesn’t have kids or a partner to consider). That stings.
Godzilla
I have no advice but I just want to say I follow these parent threads very diligently. I can’t wait to see what ruckus Mama Godzilla and Papa Godzilla create in the future.
Anon
I would be really annoyed too, probably.
I went out of my way to go home and spend time with my family (parents + sib), but then it turned out my sib was either working or flying off to see her bf.
Then my dad questioned my choice to fly in and then go directly to work. While the flight situation wasn’t ideal for me, the other option would have had my father going to the airport every 2 hours, 3 times in one day, which I thought was awful for him.
Lesson learned: the things you do for family isn’t always reciprocated, so (at least for me) stop doing it!
anon
I think I must be dense, because it took me awhile to figure out why you might be mad that she was visiting your sister. Maybe your upcoming visit made her realize that she wanted to see both her children? And maybe she thought you’d enjoy coming to visit her, not that it was a hardship on you? I’d book my own activities during the day and invite her to join if she wanted to, but treat it like a solo vacation where you don’t have to pay for a hotel.
Wannabe Runner
I live on the opposite coast from my family.
When they visit me, all I want is for them to hang out with my *at my home* and see my life as I live it.
There are tourist attractions around my town. But I want them to see as much of my normal life as can be experienced in a week. If they arrive and want to see tourist attractions XYZ and ABC and 123, that’s fine, but that means they aren’t coming to visit *me.*
I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry that your mom said she wasn’t coming to the U.S. at all in 2013, and now she is.
But maybe she would really appreciate some one-on-one time at her home, experiencing the way she lives. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
(For the record, I visit my family 3-4 times a year. My parents have visited me twice in seven years, and my siblings have come once.)
You don’t say whether you live close to your sister or not. If your sister lives in NYC, and you live in LA, I don’t think it’s that bad for your mom to stay in NYC when she visits, and skip a visit with you.
anon
This may be true for you, but it’s not true for everybody. I also live on the opposite coast from my family and when they visit, I want them to have a wonderful time – so we see theater, they go to museums, I look for interesting tourist activities for us to do together.
I’m sorry for you. It sucks to have family that doesn’t show up to visit you. But I think you’re being awfully harsh on the OP, who never said she didn’t want to see her mom – she just wants to do more with her precious vacation days than hang out at home. I think that’s totally reasonable.
She also said that her sister lived in a neighboring state. Not quite the same as NYC/LA.
africa bounc
any advice for appropriate business attire for a litigator visiting west africa on business? i will be there in the spring, tia!
How is this going to work?
Relationship TJ. Any others out there who earn over 2 times what their SO earns? In my case he contributes half of the rent and I cover all other living expenses (for instance, groceries, cable, phone). He pays his own credit card, gas, insurance, loans, and car, but is having a hard time making ends meet – especially when an unexpected necessary expense comes up – which seems to be all the time. He contributes other ways (cleaning, cooking, etc.), but with our wedding date approaching I’m worried about how we’re going to make our finances work without becoming resentful. We’ve talked about it and have a plan, but how do I avoid feeling resentful over having to pay for everything all the time? Because of our careers, it’s always going to be that way.
goldribbons
You’re choosing your future: your choice includes this man, and this is his financial situation. If that’s not okay with you, that’s a separate discussion. DH makes more than I do (2.5x) and whenever I try to opt for the cheap restaurant or the cheap local vacation, he says he wants to go to these other, more expensive places and he wants to bring me. If you don’t feel that way, don’t marry the guy OR set up your life/finances so that you can keep your money.
Ellie
Yikes. As the under earner in my marriage (right now I’m unwmployed but expect to land a job that will pay 1/3 of what DH makes– and disparity that will only increase over the years) this post seems really harsh to me. It seems like he is doing his best to contribute– if not financially then around the house. I think more often than not there is disparity in a couples income and you should be thankful you found a wonderful guy who isn’t miffed at being out earned by his fiancé.
ML
Yes. I make over 5x what my husband makes. However, we’ve been together for awhile, so I have a little bit of a different perspective. He worked and supported us while I was in law school at a job he hated. Once I became a lawyer, he transitioned to a much lower paying job that he loves. I say that not because it’s quid pro quo (i will almost certainly always make much more than him) but because i know that he would do the same for me, and has in the past. Also, he fully supports me transitioning to a lower paying job at any point. For us, it seems to work out pretty well–I have more expensive taste than him, for example, so I don’t feel like he’s “spending my money.” He does almost all the housework and cooking and bill paying. And we’ve discussed how, when we have children, we will take advantage of his flexible schedule so that he can be the primary care giver. Is there a way for you to see how his job benefits you in a similar way? for example, re kids, I felt a lot of pressure as the primary breadwinner (and still do, really), but I try to think about it like this: if we were both in big law, sure, he would make a lot of $ and we could hire a full time nanny…but I then i would just worry about leaving my baby for so long + spending so much on childcare. This way, it’s true, we can’t afford a nanny and that stresses me out, but his job is super flexible and we can take advantage of that in a way that benefits our family. I wonder if there’s a similar way for you to think about it? Another example: my job makes it really difficult for me to plan and take vacations. Often I end up spending more $$ on things like last minute flights. On the other hand, my husband’s schedule is so flexible that he arranges his vacations around mine, so its one thing I never have to worry about– I can’t imagine how it would be if we both had jobs as demanding as mine–I think it would lead to fighting, honestly.
Also, I found pre-marital counseling to be very helpful and a good way to talk about potentially contentious things like money.
p.s.. I do still sometimes feel resentful. Its hard not to. When that happens, i try to talk to my husband about cutting back on our expenses (saving $$ makes me feel better). I also try to remember everything I just said above.
Pancakes
Is it possible that your frustrations could lie in feeling like you’re wearing the pants in the relationship and he’s not “taking care” of you?
Because it sounds like he’s trying to pull his weight, particularly by picking up chores that don’t cause him to spend money.
Or perhaps it will feel less obvious that he is having trouble making ends meet with his salary if/when you combine checking/savings accounts?
Research, Not Law
We pool all our money. It’s not my money and his money, it’s our money. Even though I earn it, I never think if it as my money, so I’m never resentful for “having to pay for everything all the time.”
It sounds like he’s having a hard time making ends meet because of cost of living, not because of financial irresponsibility. Which, honestly, could be related to trying to keep up with your lifestyle (which I’m guessing is more costly given your income). If that’s the case, the issue will disappear if you take a team approach. If it is that he’s being irresponsible, you need to address it before getting married, joint finances or not.
JJ
Agreed completely. Everything we earn is “our” money. It wouldn’t occur to me to think that one of us paying for the other person. We each made choices regarding how much we would make. You’re currently aware of the salary disparity and that it will likely remain for the foreseeable future, you either have to figure out whether this is something you can accept or not.
TBK
Yep. I’ve always earned at least twice what Mr. TBK earns (now even more than that). In our case, we don’t expect it to be like that forever, but even if it were, it wouldn’t matter to me. It’s our money, our house, our food, our everything. Mr. is doing some things with his career that mean much, much lower earnings for him for the time being. We discussed this together and made the decision together. I resent him if I’ve been running around doing errands on a Saturday and find him sleeping on the couch instead of mowing the lawn like he promised. But I don’t resent the money because that’s a done deal. Either you accept this about your fiance, or you call off the wedding. I don’t see another option.
Lynnet
All of this.
L
Wow. I’m sorry, but if you’re engaged and you want to spend the rest of your life with this guy, I think you have to change your mindset about money. If you nickle and dime each other you’re both going to resent the other person. Are you planning to combine finances (joint/join/individual play accounts) when you get married? Or do you plan to keep everything separate?
In the short term, I think it’s fair to base your common bills on percentages. If you say 50% of each paycheck goes into the joint expenses, then that’s that. If you want to kick in extra from your own, to be able to have more to play around with, then do so.
Long term – couples counseling. ASAP.
Merabella
This. When my now husband and I started living together, I made less then him, so we divided up the expenses in percentages instead of 50/50. I made 2/3 what he made, so we based it our expenses on that.
I agree that your ideal living situation may be out of his price range and he is struggling to keep up. You have to decide what is important to you – 50/50 split and him not being able to afford it, or you get what you want and pay more for it.
I suggest watching Joy Luck Club to see how this “equal” kind of set up seems to the other person.
anon
I have been the sole breadwinner for my entire marriage; my DH now earns less than half of what I do. I think the keys are:
1) Your DH is equally committed to your financial planning and goals.
2) You trust that he is doing his best to support your family, in both financial and non-financial ways.
3) You and your DH agree upon spending priorities and budgets. (We actually don’t have a “budget,” but we avoid making major purchases without each other’s prior consent.)
4) You merge your finances. You want to avoid a situation where you’re flush and your DH is getting the utilities turned off.
5) If you don’t merge your finances, you come up with a proportional payment system for joint expenses.
6) You value the contributions your DH makes, whether they are financial or not.
Good luck. It is hard, especially when you have kids because your salary disparities will mean that you are unlikely to be able to take time away from work to raise your kids. I didn’t even know I wanted to be a SAHM until I had kids, and then it was a huge blow to realize that I would never be able to do so b/c my DH did not make enough to support our family.
Anon
I agree with all of this, including the last part. That was hard for me to make peace with.
mascot
“You’re choosing your future: your choice includes this man, and this is his financial situation” Yep, this. I assume at some point his debts will get paid off so that might help. And if he’s bad with money, then perhaps some counseling. Marriage is a team effort. I now out-earn DH by a fair margin. For a while he out-earned me. But, we always see the household money as ours.
Divaliscious11
We were in that position when we first married (H made more than 2x me) and now we are in the reverse (I make multiples of DH) and the pendulum is likely to swing back the other way. We have 3 accounts mine/ours/his. We each put a percentage of each check into our personal accounts (right now its 10% of mine, 20% of his, for the couple of years we were around equal it was 10% each) and the balance in the joint account. Out of the joint account we pay all household bills, kid expenses, jointly funded investments, individual IRA accounts, jointly named expenses (ie..car insurance) or expenses that add value to our family (my student loans – he has none). We pay our credit cards out of that account, although we each have individual cards. This works for us, because he doesn’t comment on my Starbucks expenses, and I don’t complain if he spends $50 playing pool with his friends etc… The totally separate works for some marriages, just not for us…. Once we stopped thinking in his bills/my bills terms, it became a lot easier to manage.
anon
Yes, but I knew going in that he would be a teacher and I would be a lawyer. I think they are both equally valid professions. We just put everything into our joint accounts – we’re married – and then there isn’t a “he’s paying for X” and “I’m paying for Y.” Luckily he isn’t very spendy, or I might feel differently. Occasionally he’ll spend on something I disagree with and I might get a little resentful, but it’s not often – and presumably he’ll be providing the lion’s share of child care later on.
anon
Be careful about presuming that someone will provide childcare – I thought my grad student husband would do that, but he ended up being outraged about being asked to provide more childcare, despite the fact that he was not earning income at the time. I ended up funding both a full time nanny and his graduate studies. That was hard.
Sydney Bristow
I’ve been watching Suze Orman lately and I think her advice is to split expenses by percentages. So if, for example, your income makes up 70% of the total when added to his, then you should pay 70% of the bills. Just another idea.
TBK
What if one of you makes all the money? And I’ve never understood how a couple could have unequal amounts of “free” money (i.e., discretionary). It would cause a lot of resentment, I’d think, if one person had $1000/mo for whatever and the other had only $50.
Lyssa
I agree with the above posters. For me, I do make over 2x what my husband does, but our situation might be different because we’ve been married so long, and he out-earned me the large majority of the time (including the 3 years where he supported me almost entirely through law school). Plus, he took a major step down in pay to move for me to take my current job (though I would still significantly outearn him if he were still at that job).
I know that a lot of people like and work with the system of “your money, my money” in a relationship, but I personally am not much of a fan, particularly when one party seriously outearns the other. It seems to defeat the idea of a “partnership” to me. Are you open to thinking of it as “our money”? If not, then I think that you really would have to either 1) accept that you will *support* him, or 2) cut your lifestyle back so that it is doable on his budget, not yours.
anon
Agree. I just don’t think its a real partnership when people nickle and dime. it is like you are just preparing for the inevitable divorce. My husband and I have seperate bank accounts but its really all our money. I was so surpised when people had that confessional thread where all the “overachieving” women resented their husband for not being the provider. Apparently it is a real thing. I’ve always outearned my husband, and its never been an issue. I have never once felt resentful, even when he lost his job. If you are in it together with your spouse than the 2x +x should equal your household, regardless of which part is bringing it in.
Pest
Are the two of you married? It makes a difference legally and otherwise.
RR
I make more than twice what my husband makes (like twice plus another $20K–I can’t do percentage math apparently). It’s a little different for us because we got married before I even started law school and while he was finishing up his thesis for his degree, so we were broke together in the beginning and for years after. Now, fifteen years later, we both have very respected, rewarding jobs, but mine happens to be compensated at a higher level. For us, we’ve always thrown everything in one pot, and we pay all the bills out of that pot, so day to day it doesn’t feel like I’m paying for everything. It’s our money, and it feels like “our” money. He actually deals with the finances. I think it’s probably harder for you because you aren’t starting out poor together–you are starting out with you making more.
I occasionally get a little resentful if he’s critical of my spending, but usually he’s making a valid point. I do feel a lot of pressure because the family finances are really in my hands. He got laid off a few months ago, and it wasn’t even a worry because he could stay home and we’d be fine (he found another job very quickly). But, I feel like I can’t let up at all because my income is really what runs the household, funds the retirement, funds the college funds, etc. I try to embrace the perks of his lower stress job. He’s able to pick the kids up in the evenings and stay home with them when they are sick. He cooks dinner most nights because he’s home earlier.
Think of contribution to the marriage in total–not just in money. Are both parties contributing equally? If yes, then I think you are fine. I make lots more money, but my husband does more of the child rearing, 50% of the household chores, and is more emotionally supportive than I could possibly be on my best day. Even though I make more than twice as much money, my perception is that he contributes much more. Hopefully, his perception is the same in reverse, so that we both see each other’s contributions as valuable.
Anon
I make twice what my husband makes. We pool all of our money into one account and pay everything from that account. We have been married 7 years and have three children. When our second was born, he went down to part-time/contract basis work and does the bulk of the childcare and household chores. It works for us. I typically do not feel resentful at all because I know he works very hard at home, but we are constantly communicating with each other about whether this arrangement is working. I do get grumpy when the house is messy, but over the years he has learned that I really need the house picked up when I get home, and as the kids have gotten older it is easier for him/them to do so.
GirlMeetsWorld
If you have a plan, what is causing the resentment? Do you feel like you have to shoulder more of the financial obligations? Is that he can’t “make ends meet” esp regarding emergency expenditures? Is it about being financially responsible?
MaggieLizer
Instead of looking at it like, here are our expenses and he doesn’t cover “his” half, would it help to consider what your living expenses would be if you were living on your own, and think of his income as covering whatever additional expenses he brings to the table? In most areas at least, supporting one person (rent, electricity, groceries, etc.) doesn’t cost all THAT much more than supporting two people. If he’s covering whatever extra expenses he brings to the table, then anything left over of his income is just gravy.
I’m not suggesting this as a way to actually split your bills – every couple has to figure out what works and you’ve gotten some great advice here – but as a mindset at least it might help with the resentment.
Kontraktor
I know things are different for everybody, but I think this sort of issue illustrates how devisive it can be to separate your finances in a marriage. I think if you don’t see your money as ‘our money,’ it invites these sorts of doubts, questions, insecurities, and awkward scenarios when you are leading a joint life that really isn’t financed jointly. Even if you are able to devise a solution whereby you split expenses while married, what happens when you have children or medical problems or expenses that are much harder to separate? Who pays for the child that belongs to both of you? Or who pays medical bills when one person is sick? Or, what if your husband can’t work for awhile- does that mean he has to buy himself packs of ramen with money he’s saved in his piggy bank because the money you make at your big job is not ‘his’? To me, there just seem to be too many contingencies to make separated finances really work without making somebody feel really bad along the way or drawing arbitrary lines in the sand that just drive spouses apart more than they help anything.
There are exceptions of course, and some people make it work. I think when spouses have drastically different spending habits (or financial goals), or one spouse is being very lazy and refuses to contribute… those seem like situations where some separating of finances might be worth it. Some of us might also be stuck in bad marriages with bad husbands where we have to take care to protect ourselves. But these are the exceptions, I think. Otherwise, I think it’s generally really important to view all aspects of married life as ‘our life.’
I don’t think marriage should be about keeping score or what is his vs. hers vs. mine. vs. yours. Being married involves ebbs and flows, gives and takes that are fluid throughout the course of life. Sure, maybe one person makes more money. But sometimes one person also does more housework or births the babies or stays home for awhile or cares for the other when they are ill. Do you keep score? Do you say, well you ‘owe’ me because I took take of you while you were bed ridden for 6 months and that’s more points in the ‘me’ category? Well, presumably not. So, why should finances be different? Personally I believe people need to make peace with their spouses’ financial situations. You are marrying the whole person and joining your life with theirs, understanding that there are going to be unequal pushes and pulls throughout life, but that you are getting married because you love the person so much you don’t want to keep score or divide, but rather completely immerse your life with theirs and be partners in everything.
downstream
you avoid feeling resentful by not feeling resentful. I make 1/3 of the household income, my loans are higher, and 75% of the disposable income goes to me-only stuff (clothing, shoes) and I would be furious if my husband told me to stop spending “his” money. (He objects when he thinks I spend too much but it’s phrased as “stop spending so much money” not “stop spending so much of my money”). It’s not my money or his money, it’s our money. Marriage is a partnership and each person brings what each person has. If you don’t think your SO brings enough to the table (money-wise, personality-wise, anything else-wise), then that is a different issue.
OP
Maybe part of the reason I sometimes feel this way is that we aren’t married yet and we haven’t yet combined any of our money. But all of you have made very good points and suggestions that I’m taking to heart going forward. Thanks each and every one of you.
anotheranon
I’m going through this now – we’re getting married soon and just starting to combine income. I have significantly more cash flow and had been feeling a bit, peeved? annoyed? unappreciated?
I was more ‘resentful’ (although that’s not the right word) anticipating the combined financial responsibility than I have been since we’ve started the merge. I’m not sure why, maybe because the other intangibles of marriage are starting to show? Maybe because it’s not as scary as I thought?
goldribbons
This makes me want to give you a hug. You sounds like you’ll be able to figure this out; no need to be resentful.
DealCube
Honestly, I’d go to some counseling about this. You are engaged already. There is no switch that gets flipped when you say “I do” (or whatever your ceremony will include).
If you don’t already have a team approach mentally to finances, I would really examine the reason why. What do you really expect out of marriage? Do you view marriage as a three-legged man way of going through life, where you need a partners that can always keep up with you step-for-step? Are you handed a wheelbarrow when you are married and each take turns riding in it and each of you needs to be strong enough to do all the pushing sometimes? Do you want a divide-and-conquer relationship where roles are more solidly defined? There aren’t right and wrong answers to that question, but there can be right and wrong relationships based upon the answers.
When I started my relationship, I was making all the money. Then we matched. Then he made the money. Now we match again. None of these arrangements have changed how we see the money — there is one pot and one set of goals, and one of those goals is that each of us is able to pursue hings that make us happy. Dollar amounts only come into the picture when we are trying to figure out how to make things work. There has never been an attempt to match or calculate which of us spends more. And spending has never been dependent on who brought in what.
phillygirlruns
i strongly agree with all of this – really, really examine what it is you want in terms of a partnership/roles/etc. longterm, and if it isn’t what you have now, address it. forever is a very, very long time.
Meg Murry
I make 2x more than my husband and yes, there are days when I feel petty and frustrated by that. But most of the time, I’m actually frustrated by something else, and my money frustrations are a cover for the real underlying problem (feeling underappreciated at home or work, feeling overworked or overwhelmed, etc). And he does more than 2x the housework that I do because he has a more flexible schedule and works from home most days – and I know there are days that he gets frustrated with me about that.
Getting frustrated occasionally is normal and human. Feeling resentful all the time, however, is a big red flag.
anon
Are you willing to consider moving to a cheaper place that he could better afford, or is the extra cost worth it to you? If so, isn’t it worth paying more than what you think is your fair burden? Maybe you can think of it as that you’re upgrading on what his lifestyle might otherwise be so that you can share it together.
Hel-lo
Maybe you should start funding more stuff, i.e., all the rent, some of his loans/insurance, and contribute to savings. The savings can be used on the “unexpected” stuff you’re referring to.
If you’re getting married, you should work this out ASAP.
SJ
My husband and I had were married 6 months and had lived together for 6 years before we moved to a joint checking account, a joint savings account and both closed our personal accounts. I agree with earlier posters that it’s easier when the money just goes in the account rather than trying to do the math of who pays how much for what. I currently outearn my husband but I also have more debt and like to spend money more than he does. I know it hurt his male pride for a while not to be contributing at least 50% of our income but he’s slowly made his peace with it. I guess my two points are that it takes some time to fully integrate your moneys when you’re used to being independent and that maybe your fiance feels the crunch too and it would be worth talking to him about how to spend your money.
Millie
Find someone else. Someone with whom you love enough to share.
Divaliscious11
Piggy-backed on an earlier post but thought I’d repost. A friend in the Bergen County, NJ area is looking for a good divorce attorney. Do any NY/NJ ladies have any reco’s?
Lyssa
Hello darlings,
I must come to you and hang my head in shame for being a terrible participant in the (this site)-verse. A few people asked about me yesterday when discussing commenters that they were wondering about. It definitely touched my heart that you guys would remember me and my pregnancy and be concerned. Thank you all so much.
The truth actually is that everything with the delivery went beautifully. I know that this is not a popular sentiment, but personally, I would have a c-section again in a New York minute. It wasn’t the most fun thing on earth, but it was really quite easy. I’m happy to share more details to anyone who wants them. And the baby – sigh – he is perfect. Amazing, beautiful, delightful, all of the adjectives and then some.
Not to go all Marissa Mayer on you, but honestly, having a baby, the delivery and the caretaking (so far!) have been far easier than I would have thought. Not always, of course, but most of the time. Even when he cries and stinks, it still seems precious. The exception, of course, to that easiness is doing anything that requires two hands, like typing comments in a blog. Seemed like I could never put him down long enough to get around to it, though I have been reading (this site on a smartphone makes excellent middle of the night nursing reading).
All that said, I’m back to work this week (after 8 weeks off – longest I’ve been not in work or school since about 1996). The little guy is home with his daddy for another few weeks. I am committing to trying to be more productive at work and less distracted, though, so I plan (hope!) to highly limit my postings from now on. Well, we’ll see how that goes.
Thank you all again. It really was lovely to know that I was thought of.
Blonde Lawyer
Such good news! Congratulations and welcome back.
Research, Not Law
Great news! GL with the transistion back to work. It’s so nice to have baby with daddy.
espresso bean
Welcome back and congratulations!
Lyssa
On the baby-having note (I’m not having the best day at work, you might guess – not really because of the baby, just some other issues), I’d like to share two scenes from television that once struck me as strange but now ring completely true.
1) That episode of Gilmore Girls where they do a flashback to when Lorelai had Rory – there’s a scene where teen-Lorelai (who looks nothing like adult Lorelai) is at the hospital and looking at baby Rory in the nursary, and I think Christopher says something about her, and Lorelai’s response is “She’s perfect.” At the time, I thought that was kind of silly – “Nobody’s perfect! See, attitudes like that is how you get a spoiled child who makes bad decisions like stealing a boat or dating Jess!” But now, I get it. My little guy is perfect.
2) There was an episode of Bones a while back (BTW, wouldn’t Dr. Brennan make an awesome C**pr**te?) where Angela and Bones were both going on about how they missed their babies during the workday and Angela was sneaking hers into the lab (which was dumb, because both of these characters were supposed to be filthy rich- just hire a nanny who can visit you during the day!). At the time, I thought “How can you miss a baby? It’s not like they have striking conversation skills or anything.” Now, I get it. I sometimes don’t want to put him in his car seat (don’t worry, I do!) because it means I can’t hold him anymore.
CBM
This is so sweet! Thanks for sharing your joy!!
cbackson
I feel like Bones is a very r 3 tt 3-ish show, because it’s all about the lady friendships. That’s actually really rare in TV!
Cb
Congrats!
KC
Congrats! Glad to hear you and baby are doing well :)
Diana Barry
Congrats!!!
ohc
Anybody have any experience with occupational therapy as a career? My boyfriend surprised me last night by telling me he was really interested in learning more about what that life might look like, so I figured we might as well draw upon the experiences of all you ‘r3tt3s. Curious about necessary qualifications/education, salary, daily experience, etc. Thanks!
agirlfromoz
I do – but not in the US (live in the UK). I can speak to the general experiences, and the day-to-day life of an OT, but don’t know about salary/qualifications needed in the US.
The American OT association website looks like it has some good information about what an OT does. I might suggest also seeing if local hospitals allow for work experience, or give talks about the role of OT
agirlfromoz
and PS – as with any job, there are good and not-so-good bits, the good bits make it worthwhile
InfoGeek
At least around here, OT programs can be difficult to get into. The classes are capped, so you have to be a good candidate to even get into the program to be an OT. (Same for OTA.)
Miyya
One of my roommates is an OT student, and the other is a PT student. From what I’ve seen of their curricula, the PT program really emphasizes science and anatomy courses (more classes in neuroscience, musculoskeletal disorders, orthopaedic disorders, etc.) while the OT program emphasizes holistic well-being (more classes with titles like psychology, productive aging, children and youth, etc.). My roommates said that OTs don’t typically make quite as much money, but there is significant overlap in the day-to-day work between both fields. My OT roommate also said that she gets to specialize in hand therapy, which sounds interesting.
Meg Murry
I have a neighbor who is an OT, and these are the pros and cons I’ve heard her express:
Pro: If you are good with working with older people, there is a lot of work to be had at nursing homes. Con: If you don’t want to work with older people or at nursing homes, the work can be harder to find (at least in our area, not sure about other parts of the country).
Pro: If you are a people person, you get to interact with lots of people and develop relationships with them, and some will really appreciate what you do for them. Con: People are often in OT because of a stroke, fall or catastrophic accident, and may resent having to have OT and be uncooperative or unpleasant.
Pro: If you want to work a schedule outside 9-5, part time or 3dx12hr schedules can be available. Con: If you are scheduled to see a patient on Thursdays and are paid by Medicaid (or Medicare, or maybe both, I can’t remember) – it doesn’t matter if Thursday is a holiday (Thanksgiving, Christmas, whatever) you have to work that day.
Flying Squirrel
TJ: seeking career pity
Ladies, today is a low day for me. To make a complicated story short, I finished my PhD on the cusp of the collapse intending to leave the research world. Jobs were difficult to come by, but I’ve manged to parlay a few temporary experiences into a permanent job I really like. The trouble is, it’s not where my DH works. After basically no luck on his finding a job near me, I’m back to searching near him…and will probably move soon regardless of finding a job. (He earns twice my salary, and his job offers the opportunity to move to the city where we’d most want to settle if we had kids. The latter is another issue for us after two losses and many rounds of unsuccessful IVF.)
I recently applied to a position in his city, though that was on paper perfect for me…and would actually be a good career move. I talked to the hiring manager a couple weeks ago, and she encouraged me to apply. But in talking to her I also realized there was additional experience they were hoping for that wasn’t clear from the post…that I lack. Now I know the industry well enogh to know my experience is actually harder to find and at least as critical to their goals, and I do have very relevant experience to the area I lack. So I tried to make it clear in my application what I brought to the table…but I knew based on our conversation that it wasn’t as likely as the job ad would suggest.
And I’m now at the point of not having heard back, and knowing the planned hiring cycle based on my discussion with the manager, that I feel its not all that likely they are considering my application. So now I’m just feeling low. A couple other jobs (admittedly less attractive) have also fallen away in the last couple weeks…informed they don’t want to pursue further after a few interviews. I know things are picking up economically so there are more jobs to choose from, but I can’t find any that want to hire me!! I can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. All the feedback I get from interviews is very positive and mostly about not being quite the right fit. If there’s something wrong with me, I wish the interviewers would just say so. Otherwise, how can I make myself a better fit??? Only semi-joking.
Research, Not Law
:: glass of wine ::
A HUGE pet-peeve of mine is when hiring managers don’t put necessary skills or requirements in the posting!
I’m not sure if this will help, but from my experience not hiring someone for a position for which they are not well suited is the more humane decision. I know first-hand the pain of seemingly endless job searching, but you’re better off without those jobs. I’ve seen people be hired into them and they can leave worse than when they started.
Without more detail, which you understandably wouldn’t want to lay out here, it sounds like there’s nothing wrong with you and that you need to keep looking and waiting. I’m sorry. If you do see a consistent pattern of skills and experience your lacking, you should work on obtaining them why you wait.
LLBMBA
This may sound flippant, but I can assure you it’s not intended that way. I struggled to find employment after a stint in school last year that I found incredibly disheartening – wasn’t being called back on things that I was clearly qualified for, no interviews, etc.
And then somewhere called me about a job I hadn’t applied for (I had applied for something else a while back). And I beat a bunch of people to get it. I just had to wait for the right job.
This too shall pass.
Eleanor
I’m really sorry you’re going through this. I know first-hand how discouraging and frustrating job searching is. That said, it truly doesn’t sound from your post as though you’re doing anything wrong. The economy does seem to be picking up, but only a little bit and very slowly. So, employers probably have the luxury of choosing from many candidates one who is the right “fit.” Fit can also be an explanation for when there is more than one qualified, good candidate, but only one job. I hope you find something soon, and that you can try not to let this job search be a reason to feel down about yourself – you are much more than some job.
Flying Squirrel
Thanks ladies. Intellectually I know it can’t be possible I’ll be unemployed (or living far from my spouse) forever, but it just feels like it.
I feel caught in the simultaneously over- and underqualified trap. Overqualified based on degree and overall level of time in the workforce but underqualified in terms of experience in working at a job outside of research. But somewhere there has to be the right fit (for me too..I’ve tried the just take any job approach, and I was miserable)…right?
I really don’t regret the time I spent in school because I enjoyed it (and I feel I developed valuable skills through my research, including things most people don’t get to do as grad students). It’s just really hard to recast it. You can’t hide 6 years from your resume (no matter what the alternative career path people say), and in my experience non-research folks don’t really understand PhD programs. I recently learned that even my current boss doesn’t understand my background in a pretty fundamental way, but he was still willing to hire me based on my general awesomeness at my interview ;)
anon
Don’t get too down! It takes everyone a while to find a job, even the most qualified, go-getter types, especially if you are in a very specific niche. It’ll get easier to face rejection over time. The first “no” is painful, but you’ll forget about it in a few weeks. Try not to pin too much hope one any one job opportunity. Just keep applying and putting your best foot forward.
Help!
Background info first: I’ve rarely had my cycle since I started at 13. I went years without it, and had it maybe one to three times in the years that I did have it. I was diagnosed with a prolactinoma, was treated, and my cycles never came back as the doctors predicted. I don’t care much about having them regularly (DH and I do not plan to have children), but recently when I’ve been having them, I have HORRID mood swings, extreme exhaustion, and ridiculous irritability. I can’t seem to control the hormonal rages that come over me. That scares me, and I know it really affects my husband.
I tried bc before, but it made me worse for the entire month, not just the days leading up to my cycle. I contemplated suicide, hated myself, and had too many mood issues to count. I tried several types.
How do you ladies who deal with really bad PMS handle it? Does anything make you better (diet, exercise, medication)? It seems to be getting exponentially worse every time I have my cycle. I don’t like who I am at all.
Merabella
I know you said you tried bc before, but did you try different iterations? There are so many different things on the market now, though I would totally understand your hesitation due to your past experience.
On a different, but related note, could you go to an endocrinologist and have them check out your hormone levels to see what is lacking/excessive?
petitesq
Second both of these points. Will also add to the first that it took me a good 4-5 months to fully adjust to my bc (my main issue with it was weight gain and cold-like symptoms).
Help!
I tried two types: Nuva Ring and a pill that starts with an M. Microgestin maybe. I’m considering trying again, it was just a dark time in my life, and I don’t want to go back there.
Well. I went to an endo last month, and he came in the room talking (didn’t even let me explain why I was there) telling me why I didn’t have a problem, and saying that he is going to tell my PCP to never check my hormonal levels again. I have really bad doctors, and can’t seem to find better ones, but it is worth a shot again, if I can get in to see someone else. I have PCOS (according to the endo), but he refuses to treat it since I don’t want children.
goldribbons
Okay so you need new doctors, all around. Post your city and let’s see if we can help you.
Help!
I am with Kaiser in So. Cal. I currently go to the Kaiser Fontana Medical Center, but am absolutely willing to drive 1-2 hours for a better doctor.
BMBG
Yeecchhh, now I understand your problem. Sorry you have to deal with Kaiser.
Help!
Oh believe me, I am so, so sorry I have to deal with them. I went to Loma Linda previously, and had an AMAZING PCP. My Endo was an a**, but they at least did their jobs.
zora
Kaiser in NoCal is amazing. I have the most incredible PCP/Ob/Gyn. I would urge you to ask around other people you know who have Kaiser, or just go on the website and try a different Endo and say you want a second opinion. There are some crap doctors, but there are some amazing ones, you just might have to work to find one, but once you do it will be SO worth it.
Anon
I have had a PCOS diagnosis for almost 10 years and have not wanted kids during that time. The idea that it doesn’t need to be treated except for fertility is the biggest bunch of sexist cr@p I have ever heard in my life. PCOS affects you in many, many ways other than fertility. It took me a couple of tries with a couple of endos but now I am on a drug regimen (Yasmin bcp, Spironolactone, Metformin, Victoza, and thyroid med) that works for me and my previous symptoms (acne, hirsutism, hair loss, out of control hunger, out of control weight gain, no period for months than periods that lasted a month) are now totally under control. Keep trying until you find a doctor who takes you seriously. And don’t let anyone tell you that you just need to lose weight. PCOS makes *impossible* for me to lose or even maintain without medication. You also might want to check out the web forum Soulcysters.net. It’s pretty hokey, but there is also some good information on there.
Notalawyer
If you can get to San Francisco, I recommend Dr. Nathan Becker.
anon
Well first you should definitely talk to your dr.
I have bad PMS and bad cramps. BC pills eased these but then I have highish blood pressure and family history of heart disease so I stopped taking them at 33. My cramps and bad moods returned with a vengeance.
Exercise greatly helps me. It doesn’t have to be super hard core. I mean I go to the gym three times a week at best but usually twice week because I have many priorities above the gym. But even this helps. Just some cardio and weights to stay borderline in shape. I try to do some cardio when I expect my period. Also getting enough sleep makes a big difference in moods for me. I eat a reasonably healthy diet with some indulgences here and there, and I have never liked the idea of cutting out swaths of food types, so I don’t know about diet. I do feel more hungry that time of month and try to fill up on things that are not totally devoid of nutritional value (light popcorn, fruit, whole wheat crackers, soup) with some dark chocolate thrown in.
Anon
My doctor prescribed a low dose antidepressant for my monthly cycle only. I start taking it 7 days before my cycle. No miracle cure, but it definitely helps. It may be harder for you if your cycle is so irregular, but if you know your body well enough you may be able to tell when the hormonal rage sets in and start taking it then.
k-padi
Honestly, the pill. Your issues are hormonal so the treatment is hormonal. Most doctors prescribe the pill willy-nilly and take a “lets see if this one works.”
Check out this chart:
http://www.marieclaire.com/health-fitness/news/contraceptive-cheat-sheet
My doctor hadn’t seen anything like it until I showed her (and she kept it). Hormones interact strangely but this is a good starting point. My current pill is one that is not listed for my main symptoms but those had crazy side effects. I use one that is a balance of low side effects and decent management of my main symptoms.
TO Lawyer
Second this advice to try the pill again. FWIW, I tried two pills in the exact same family and had vastly different reactions. Each pill is formulated differently and will interact with you differently. It also took me a few months to adjust to all the side effects.
rosie
I agree on trying another pill. But you need a doctor who you can say “this pill makes me feel x” to and have her/him believe you and switch you immediately. I have been on many different pills, one of which gave me really terrible mood issues, but I told my doctor and she immediately got me off of that one, no “let’s give it another month and see what happens,” because there are so many options out there, you shouldn’t have to live with that.
mascot
So pre-pregnancy, I took Yasmin for years and did pretty well. Post-pregnancy, I took Loestrin 24 and I really think it jacked my moods. Alesse did the same thing years ago. Breakthrough bleeding was an issue with tri-phasics, although that was years ago. My physician is reluctant about Yasmin given the negative publicity its received of late. Anyone care to suggest an alternative? (yes, I will talk to my doctor, but would welcome anecdotes)
k-padi
I would try Yasmin again with the caveat that your reaction to those hormones may have changed in the intervening years. The issue with Yasmin is clotting and it’s about a 50% increased risk if I recall correctly. But it’s a 50% increased risk from a very low risk so there’s actually very little difference. Here’s the thing, you’ve successfully taken Yasmin without clotting before and I assume you don’t smoke or have any other risk factors. Of course, it’s a decision for you, your husband, and your doctor to make.
No suggestions other than to talk to your doctor about expectations and thresholds for switching like “Get me off this NOW”, “It’s not horrible and I’ll try it for a few months”, and “not perfect but manageable”.
BTW, I’m happy with Alesse but one of my friends was shocked because it did the same to her that it did to you. Loestrin was a nightmare for me too but it’s a dream come true for another friend.
the honorable anon
I have a clerking threadjack. There is a vacancy for a judgeship in an area where I would like to be. I would really like to clerk for the person that has been nominated for location reasons as well as job reasons–I like his background, and I am interested in a career clerkship. Does anyone have any ideas for how I could possibly approach this? Do I see how close I can network to this person? I know that being nominated doesn’t mean the person will become a judge overnight, and I am certainly open to being told there is no way to do this, at least not at this point.
clerkster
I’m a career clerk for a federal judge who I knew in her former life as a law firm attorney. I know people started sending her applications as soon as she was nominated, even though it took a year to be confirmed. She kept a file and did hire someone from that pool. Just an anecdote. Also keep in mind that you can be more savvy about the timing if you follow the Senate Judiciary Committee calendar and find out when the hearing is… that is when things heat up.
I can tell you that your application from a distance might seem random (unless you’re from a school with a national reputation) so if there’s a way to work a connection, I’d recommend that (as always). Of course, your reasons for moving can be explained the cover letter, but honestly 95% of applications we get are from people who say they have some reason they want to move to our (big) city, and after a while it just seems like something everyone says.
As for your interest in being a career clerk, it’s a hard job to get if you don’t have prior clerking and prior practice experience (you don’t say either way), and judges can be skittish about hiring someone they don’t know for the long-term. Often a new judge will hire a retiring judge’s career clerk, or someone else already “in the building.”You might be better off expressing your interest in a long-term position but making it clear you’d also be happy to have a term job.
the honorable anon
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I have a prior clerkship (different court) and a bit of practice experience (graduated from a top 5 school within the past 5 years). Your post was really helpful.
Hel-lo
You don’t say if this is a federal judgeship or state.
If it’s state, you may be able to send the application to (vacant) chambers, or to the Presiding Judge.
the honorable anon
Thanks. I am interested in state as well, but I wrote my questions here with a federal judge in mind. I have better ideas about where to begin with state clerkships because of my prior clerkship, but I would welcome any advice you had on that front.
Middle-sized fashion bloggers
A short while back, I asked for recs for middle-sized fashion bloggers. I’ve stumbled across one that I’ve been enjoying: Putting Me Together. Her style isn’t cutting edge, but I can see how current trends could work for me. It’s more weekend or casual Friday than professional.
Kontraktor
I will check it out. I really agree that there are a lack of mid-size bloggers. It seems like everybody is very tiny or very large. Where are all the 6-8-10 bloggers who are neither particularly tall nor short? I followed one called Third-Floor-Closet for awhile, but she doesn’t update frequently and I found the style a bit frumpy sometimes.
Merabella
I really love this! Her posts about creating a basic wardrobe and the elements of good fit are spot on! I’m adding this to my list of people I follow.
Anon
I just need to rant for a minute. I slipped on an escalator last night and fell completely on my back hitting my head, elbow, and back of my legs. I’m in a lot of pain, but ultimately ok. Luckily a family member is a doctor so I talked everything through with him and know what to look out for and would go to the doctor if any of them started.
The real rant is about the cost of health insurance. I don’t have any. I’m a temp, so I can get it through my agency but it would end whenever my temp assignment ends. The only plans I qualify for are a hospital-billed services only emergency plan, which I can afford the premium for, and a much more expensive HMO plan, which I can’t afford. I make too much money for anything less expensive, but my student loans mean that I can’t afford what I guess I’m expected to. I’m going to get the emergency plan, but I’m screwed if something major happens and whoever sees me at the hospital isn’t billed through the hospital.
My boyfriend couldn’t believe it and offered to go to city hall so I can get on his great insurance. If my family wouldn’t be so disappointed to miss my wedding, I’d totally do it. We are planning to get engaged this year, so its not a huge jump, but its stupid that I’m even considering it.
Godzilla
Hugs and rawrs – that sounds like such a mess. I hope you recover soon.
Blonde Lawyer
I actually know people who married for health insurance. Does your state allow you to get on his as a domestic partner? If you live together, that is an option. The person I know who got married for health insurance told only one or two close friends sworn to secrecy. Other than that, she still referred to the guy as her boyfriend. When he proposed, family was just told they were engaged. They somehow still did a big wedding without anyone knowing that they were “really” already married. They must have worked it out with the officiant or something. It can be done though I’m not sure I would recommend doing it with anyone you weren’t already going to marry.
SFBayA
DH and I registered as domestic partners with my firm for two years before we got married so that he could get on my health insurance. We didn’t have to go through the state at all (CA FTW!).
Gail the Goldfish
I had the same consideration when BF was temporarily unemployed. We weren’t going to get married because our mothers would kill us if we got married without a wedding, but we were considering getting domestically partnered as that was covered by my insurance (I’m in NY) on the theory that if we ever got around to getting married (we’re not big on the whole institution), we’d dissolve the domestic partnership and get a marriage license. This of course only works if your state has both and insurance company covers domestic partnerships. BF got a job fairly quickly, so it became moot.
lola
domestic partner! See if you can be your boyfriend’s domestic partner a.k.a. ‘spousal equivalent’ – i did this for my BF when he was laid off and ran out of health insurance (with no end in sight). We already lived together (shared address), and the requirements/paperwork for my plan was really quite easy. Partners don’t have to be same-sex. Hopefully this works for you.
In other news I fell down subway stairs this week and my back is bruised from side to side. I ::literally:: feel your pain. Hope you feel better and definitely look into that option.
Anon
I’m so sorry you are in the same pain! I was actually rushing to catch the subway myself when it happened.
I’m in NY and his insurance does cover domestic partners. I casually looked into it a few months ago when he suggested the same thing, but first glance at the process looked like it was more complicated than it was worth. I’ll look again though.
Thanks for all the support and suggestions!
Wannabe Runner
Ugh. Same issue here. I’m self-employed, and thus have my own insurance through our state BC/BS affiliate. It’s $300+ monthly premium for a $2500 deductible. Even having insurance isn’t always that great.
But I’m getting married soon. My fiance has a union job and his deductible is $250. For the year! I was amazed when I heard that.
Anon
I wish I was self-employed because there were some better plans available, but I get a W-2. My options are a $180/month hospital-billed expenses plan or $750/month HMO. Luckily I must have been looking at something different when looking into domestic partnership because its much easier than I thought. I’m going to talk to my boyfriend about it.
BorderLawyer
It may be late in the day for many responses to this, but I’ll throw it out there… how many of you married overachieving chicks kept your last names when you got married? I kept mine because I didn’t really like the sound of Mrs Anon Newlastname, but am having trouble explaining this to clients in the small rural town where I practice. The bottom line is that I just didn’t see the point of changing my last name, but that sounds like a haughty or defensive response when people around here ask “WHY?” I have a different last name than my husband. Does anyone have a diplomatic response to the “why?” question that doesn’t get too political? I’m really too new to my career to use the “already built a name for myself” explanation.
AEK
This can come off as defensive, but sometimes I say “I already had a name, so I didn’t need a new one.”
In generally I agree with Miss Manners that the best response to an inappropriate question (“WHY?” qualifies) is “Why do you ask?”
Nan
If someone really asks you why your name is different from your husband’s, the only response is “Because I didn’t think it was fair to ask him to take my name.”
long time lurker
LOL I like this and may use it. I rarely get the question in my big city ut I usually say I was very close to my father who passed away, and he was a big encouragement in my professional career, and prior to marriage I published several articles so I did not want to change my name mid-stream as it were. (All of this is true and when you mention a deceased parent it shuts most people up). Privately my reasons ALSO include I don’t see the point of changing my name, period.
long time lurker
For the OP if you are from a small family with few children to carry on the name, that could also be a “reason.” My cousin also did not change her name because there are few of us and she wants it to live on as long as possible. I agree with everyone you don’t “need” a reason and these people are nosy, but sometimes it is easier to just deflect and end the stupid inquiry.
GirlMeetsWorld
YES. And ask in a wide-eyed, innocent and confused sort of way, while you are secretly thinking “wtf.” ;-)
layered bob
I didn’t change my name (refuse to call it my “maiden” name – it’s just my name) and also often say, “I already had a name,” or “We both decided to keep our names.”
Interestingly, this seems to really bother/confuse my (otherwise progressive) parents, but my (otherwise very conservative) grandparents had no problem, never asked why, and always address mail correctly.
AEK
Ooh, funny that you mentioned addressing the mail…I was so amused to learn that this could become the ultimate act of passive aggression.
Merabella
I mentioned this lower down, but my fairly traditional husband (who I thought would really take issue with me keeping my name) had no problems at all with it.
And the mail thing is another thing that makes it kind of a pain.
Nellie
To answer your first question, I kept mine. It’s important not to be too defensive about the choice; I think a lot of people who ask, especially in areas where it’s uncommon, really want to know why. And if they are asking because they disapprove, there’s no answer you can give that will change minds. “No reason” is a good answer to “why?”— it’s essentially the same as “none of your business” without being so explicit. But it makes clear that you do not owe anyone a reason, which is an important fact.
Anon
I think whatever you say the key is tone. Keep it casual and noncommittal and say something like, “Oh I just liked my maiden name too much to change it,” and then change the subject.
Pest
I haven’t changed mine. I may do so when we have kids. We’ve been married for less than two years. Although I have had to correct some family members who thought I changed it, I haven’t had anyone ask me why I haven’t changed it. I think it’s rude that people are asking you. It’s really none of their business. If you want a reason you can throw out there that is not defensive, you can just say that you don’t want to go through the hassle of changing your name.
Susie
I kept using my maiden name professionally after I got married since that is how I was known in the legal field (though I was not very well-established). However when I left the law firm to go in-house I switched to using my married name both personally and professionally. Using two names got a little awkward/confusing sometimes – ie. for HR and travel purposes I had to use my legal name which some people sometimes forgot. No one ever asked me why I used my maiden name, and my husband didn’t care either way. Though I actually prefer my former name and was a little sad to change it, it did make life easier, and I imagine especially if I ever have children it does simplify things to have the same last name.
goldribbons
Since a number of you have mentioned possibly changing your name when you have kids, I know many female lawyers who didn’t change their names when they got married, but when they called their children’s schools, they would just say, “This is Mrs. DH-LastName, Junior’s mom” and the school never cared. YMMV, of course, but I thought I’d mention it because it seems to work so well for them.
Flying Squirrel
yeah, I’m totally okay with being Mrs. DH-last name in non-professional settings. In a similar vein, my parents are both physicians, but in social settings my mom has always gone by Mrs. Squirrel instead of Dr. Squirrel which alleviates the confusion about which of my parents you are talking about. It’s also probably why, despite having a PhD, I don’t prefer being called Dr. Squirrel, even in professional settings.
Hampden
that makes me a little sad – did your dad go by Mr. Squirrel socially too or did he keep his professional title? Too often women don’t get to own their titles when they want to. Sounds like you don’t want to, but I wonder if your mom did.
Flying Squirrel
I think it’s both a generational and cultural matter (my parents are immigrants), but I really don’t think my mom cared much about not using “Dr” socially. She was somewhat unusual in our family’s circle being a professional, most of their couple friends had SAHMs as did most of my classmates, and I think she actually preferred not having another thing that made her different in a social setting. (I should add that my parents are fairly conservative culturally.) Now I think there were other things about the consequences of assumptions that get make about man vs woman in a family setting that she didn’t prefer, but I really don’t think she cares much about her title in a social setting (obv. professionally it’s different, and she expects to be called Dr. at work).
And to be clear, I wouldn’t introduce myself as Mrs. DH-last name, but I wouldn’t/don’t correct people if they call me that socially. Though in general I’m a pretty strong advocate of Ms. in all situations except, for example, my DH’s late grandmother who would not have liked that on our wedding invitations. So I would be even more okay with Ms. DH-last name…
anon
If you have a phd you should not be called dr in social situations anyway
NOLA
When I got married, my Dad (who has a Ph.D) was really miffed that he wasn’t Dr. on my invitations but I had to explain to him that it wasn’t proper. He has always gone by Dr.
Susie
I can see this causing even more confusing if they get to know you as Mrs. DH, then when official forms need to be signed they’re like, who is Ms. MaidenName and why is she signing DH Jr’s paperwork?
Hel-lo
I checked with my Bar Association, and they said I could still use my maiden name professionally, even if I legally changed it. So that is what I’m doing when I get married next month.
Anon
I did this for a few years and it’s honestly a pain and can be more confusing than you might expect. Then I switched careers and took that opportunity to streamline. You didn’t ask for my advice, but I’d suggest either changing or not, and then just go with that.
DefenseWonk
I heard a horror story about an emergency with kids and the school calling and not being able to find mom because of different last names for work and family. It may be an urban myth, but it made me think twice.
Nan
I don’t know that it’s a myth, but it is something that is pretty easily averted by filling out school paperwork correctly. I’m a stepmom, different name from husband and kid, and I get the calls I’m supposed to get because I know how to write my name, phone number, and “relationship to child” on the neat little lines on the school and camp forms. I am not snarking at you, Wonk, but at the Machine that generates variations on the “what about the kids??!” and “What about emergencies?!?” horror stories designed to perpetuate the “traditional” ways. “What about the children???” was also a big refrain when women were joining the workforce in large numbers, and I think that’s why it irks me so much.
Wannabe Runner
Agreed. The people in my immediate (blended) family have 4 different surnames. The right parents always got the right calls. And this was 20 years ago.
There are so many parents/moms with different last names than their kids now, schools know how to deal with it.
Blonde Lawyer
I used my maiden name for awhile (though not legally – same as Susie) but I did it b/c my husband and I were in overlapping fields where either of us could have enemies and we did not want to be associated with each other in the bad guy’s eyes. I think it would be hysterical to look at the innocent asker and say “oh, for my husband’s safety. You get some enemies in this line of work.”
Also Anon
I have my maiden name still.
I always liked being Anon — I have no brothers and my sister changed her name, so I am the last of the line.
I was very established in my career when I got married.
I also owned property in my own name that I use in my business (that husband is not involved in).
And I did not want to be confused with the prior Mrs. Husbandsname.
The first reason I knew and pretty much decided things for me. The middle two were just practical considerations. The last was not anticipated, but means that there is no way in hell (arrest record close to where I live) that I will be changing my name.
And I do have two children with my husband (his name).
Susie
Yeah on a related note, I don’t mind being called Susie DH, but do not ever call me Mrs. DH – that is DH’s mom!!!
Anon
That is the most immature response. Someone is saying “Mrs. DH” to try to be respectful. No need to be so rude. “Actually, I go by Ms. Lastname” is a perfectly clear response.
Susie
Easy for you to say, you haven’t met my M-I-L. I kid. Yes I am often immature and on occasion rude, but not because of this. I wouldn’t actually say anything or correct someone, just makes me cringe on the inside. M’am invokes the same response, thankfully we don’t get that too often in California.
DC Kolchitongi
I have the perfect excuse for this question. “Oh, it’s not the culture of [husband’s native country] for the woman to change her last name. It would be disrespectful to her ancestors.” The real reason is I just straight up didn’t want to. I like my name the way it is and have always intended to keep it. But I prefer to put the blame on husband’s cultural traditions so no one gets defensive.
Flying Squirrel
Well, in my case my non-Western name sounds very similar to a male Western name. And if I had taken my husband’s last name, I would never cease to get emails addressed to Mr. Flying DH’s last name. That’s not the only reason I kept my name, but that’s what I tell people…which usually gets a laugh and ends the question.
Lynnet
I changed my name after we’d been married for almost two years, and if I was asked why I didn’t change it before then I told everyone the truth- I was too lazy. In my state you have to go to every different office and bring your marriage certificate (which it turns out is not the document they give you that they tell you is your marriage certificate, so I had to get it mailed to me) and it’s an enormous pain. When I had a free weekday I always ended up deciding that I didn’t really want to spend it in the Social Security Office.
Also, when I did finally end up changing my name it took me two full days (not counting the day I drove 45 minutes to the Social Security Office only to be told that I didn’t actually own a copy of my marriage certificate) including six hours waiting in line at the BMV, and it’s still not changed everywhere it needs to be.
DC
This is why we haven’t changed ours (yes, we’re both changing last names) 8 months later – laziness! It’s such a PITA.
ML
I just say, “Oh, I didn’t see why I would!” with a smile, so they know I’m not trying to be rude (but it still makes it clear that I didn’t see any reason for it). I don’t like to say stuff like “oh I was too lazy” because that’s not the reason at all- the reason is i just think it’s totally silly. (for me! for me! I don’t care what ya’ll do.). So, i think that subtly conveys it without being jerky about it.
NOLA
Just tell them you don’t want to have to change it back if you get divorced. j/k
lawsuited
I use DH’s family name in my personal life (DH and I both hyphenated) and only my family name in my work life. I like the separation between work and personal, but practically, my family name is the name on my degrees, registered with the law society and bar association, and much easier for court reporters to spell phonetically :P
Divaliscious11
I moved my maiden name to my middle name, and added my husband’s name. I kept my maiden name because I was already known professionally by that name and most people called me firstnamelastname, but now after 10 years, most know know me by my married name. The old people, however, still call me firstnamemiddlename….
Merabella
I kept my name. It is unusual, and it took me a long time to love it. My husband is a fairly traditional guy, but he had no issue with me keeping my name. People around here don’t really ever ask – but we work in academia so maybe it is more common.
I have no problem with the kids my husband teaches calling me Mrs. HisLastName, I don’t ever really correct them. It does make monogramming things harder though. :)
Woods-comma-Elle
Just wanted to say thanks to Anon from earlier today re UK training and CA bar, very encouraging statistic :)
springtime
May I ask why you are writing the CA bar? are you attempting to relocate?
Woods-comma-Elle
Potentially, although I appreciate it is nigh impossible. It’s more sort of a first step in thinking about that, but I work for a US firm and a lot of US clients, so it fits in quite well with my career path. I always wanted to do it and now is a good time as I’m a couple of years into my career here and I don’t have a mortgage/kitten/husband that requires my time (just the BigLaw job, ha!).
Anon
I’m Anon from earlier. I too was told that it was almost impossible to transition to the US, but I did it, and so did a couple of my friends. You’re doing the right thing getting the CA bar first. Good luck!
Stepmom finances
I didn’t want to threadjack the above thread about combining incomes, but this is somewhat related.
For those of you who are married to or have a combined household with a partner with kids from a previous relationship, how do the finances work? Do you combine everything? If it’s not, how do you split/share things?
Also Anon
We keep our $ separate. Not a concern re husband, but our concerns about making husband a target for his ex (I make a lot more, she thinks, and she has creditor problems who keep calling re debts that are not his and certainly not ours).
This is (hopefully) an extreme situation.
Anon for this
It may be too late for anyone to see this, but here’s hoping.
Years ago, I was a student at a prestigious private co-ed prep school. My school used a type of homeroom system for middle school, where you spent all of the day except for specialist classes in a suite of rooms with your class and homeroom teacher.
My homeroom teacher was famous for being idiosyncratic and “inspiring” – think Dead Poets Society, Stand and Deliver, etc. The truth is that he was straight-up physically and emotionally abusive of students. Without going into a lot of detail, I’m not talking about anything s*xual, but clear physical abuse (striking children in the face in front of the class with an open hand, for example) and emotionally abusive conduct as well (for example, again, forcing a child to describe, in detail, an experience of incest to an entire class of peers, and belittling that child for showing fear and reluctance). He was big on forcing students to talk about family secrets (parental alcoholism, a mother’s adultery, and a father’s suicide are among the things he made students reveal to the class) and their own s*xual behaviours (whether alone or with others, although at that age, nobody really had any “with others” to talk about).
None of us told our parents, because he’d developed an almost cult-like control – we thought no one understood and we knew that anyone who told would be subjected to terrible things, as well as ostracism. Because of the physical set-up of the school, outsiders were never in the suite. So no one knew.
He’s retired from teaching now. When I think about this, I want, at the very least, my school to stop using him as an example of a beloved teacher in fundraising literature. Honestly, I wish he’d face criminal sanction, but I know that’s impossible at this point. I’m considering writing an anonymous letter to my school – I’m well aware that I have no proof and that this would be considered slander, plus, I’m sure that if I went public, he’d reveal the things that he forced me (as an 11-year-old) to tell the class about.
Does anyone have any experience doing something like this? Or any experience trying to lay the ghosts of something similar to bed? In case it needs saying, I’m leaving out details, but really, none of this was even remotely borderline – it was all clearly inappropriate and abusive. And yes, in case it seems too extreme, I’m not exaggerating at all.
BB
(You might want to post your question again in the morning post to get more helpful responses.)
Ugh. I don’t really have any advice, but I just wanted to say that I admire you for wanting to do something about it. It reminds me of the articles in the NYTimes last year about the abuse in the NY prep school (was it Horace Mann?). I don’t know how you go about doing this, but it does seem like one of those things where once you go public, people come out of the woodwork to support you. I hate to say this, but if your school is prestigious, this may be something you can get a good Times or Post expose on.
Although I appreciate some of the advantages of prep schools, they also sound like they can be pretty awful. Your experience is really not that far off from what my friend has told me about his experiences as a teenager. The constant institutionalized bullying was out of control, and it was enforced and encouraged by the teachers (both encouraging students to bully and teachers bullying students).
Good luck!
Anon for this
Thanks. I appreciate it. I just opened up a fundraising letter from the school today, and there was his picture, and I just…am having a harder time every year pretending this didn’t happen.
What’s funny is that this was/is a *very* progressive prep school (no uniforms or dress code, had the first gay/straight alliance in the state, etc.). And yet its belief it its own moral superiority seems to have blinded administrators to this (very major) problem.
Divaliscious11
Tired but will respond in the am…..
Miss Behaved
I think you should do something, but I have no advice. For what it’s worth, I went to a prestigious private co-ed (boarding) school, too. But nothing like this ever happened and we didn’t have a “homeroom system”. We moved from class to class.
There have been a lot of private school scandals coming out recently. I’m guessing if you reported this, you’d be supported by others.
Miss Behaved
And, by the way, I hear you on the beloved teacher in the brochures thing. I had a biology teacher who is much loved by many. In a recent bulletin, several of my classmates sang her praises. I thought she was awful.
Unfortunately, if I described her practices someone here might recognize my school. Suffice it to say, after performing a rather gruesome process on a daily basis upon our assigned mouse, we had to break its neck. Thirteen-year-olds should not have to do this.
My twenty-fifth reunion is this year. I hope I don’t run into her.
Divaliscious11
Ok.
Rested.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell them!!! It doesn’t have to be all news flash and expose, but please let them know. Reach out to your classmates and tell them to quietly let them know. Or loudly if you feel like that is what is needed. I went to a co-ed prep school in New England and loved it, had a wonderful experience, and am actually in the very early stages of looking for my kids. I would be horrified if I sent my child into a circle of cruelty like you’ve described.
mascot
1) Please tell someone. Tell the school. Even if they just look at it from a financial perspective, alums aren’t giving money because they are repulsed by by the annual giving literature. This guy sounds awful.
2) The defense to slander is the truth. You are telling the truth, no child deserves to be treated like that. Intimidation buys silences, this is how people get away with this. Please speak out. Someone needs to know that creeps like him are in classrooms and put a stop to it.
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