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Anon
Hi Ladies, I’m looking for career coaching specific to thriving in BigLaw and would ideally like to find a female, ex-BigLaw coach. Has anyone worked with someone they would recommend? I’m based in Chicago but I would be fine with coaching sessions over Zoom with someone in a different location. Thank you!
Anon
I’m not sure someone who is ex-Big Law is going to be able to coach you on how to thrive in Big Law. They’re “ex” for a reason… (I say that with no judgment as someone who left Big Law myself.) I think you really need to find mentors who are actually at large firms.
Anon
I know there are some out there. I wouldn’t go to anyone who hadn’t been an equity partner at BigLaw to truly get it right. Not income partner. Not “worked at BigLaw.” But full-on equity partner or don’t bother with them.
Anon
Darian Fleming is amazing. She is based in Seattle but does Zoom coaching and is highly recommend. https://darienfleming.com/
Anon
You don’t need a coach, you just need to give up your life and dedicate it to work.
Anon
Haha touche
anon
If you see this, try Sarah-Nell Walsh with Wayfinders LLC. Not Chicago-based but I think she does virtual coaching. Former AmLaw 100 partner.
Anonymous
I haven’t worked directly with her but know of Betsy Munnell, who would fit your criteria: http://ehmunnell.com
Anon
For those of you married or in a longterm relationship, what are the main disagreements or issues that arise between you and your partner? What are issues that have arisen that you didn’t expect?
If you’re single, what are the main issues with dating you encounter? Or conversely, things about being single that you love?
Anon
I am single and trying to date (when I am not abundantly frustrated) and one of my biggest issues is men who think they are emotionally available and ready to be in relationships (following a divorce, trauma, whatever), but who after several months of being in a relationship decide whoops nope not ready or can’t do it/don’t want to work on it while partnered. My other biggest issue is men who are the -ists (sexist, racist, etc.). I live in a small blue dot surrounded by red. I am giving it another year before I move somewhere more diverse and populated.
Anon
Obviously, I don’t want to date someone who doesn’t want or can’t be in a relationship, but after many years of my own therapy, I ask the right questions, openly discuss needs and wants, goals, etc., and then one day their switch flips. Sigh.
Emma
That is so frustrating! I have found that many men don’t really know their own feelings, or that they manifest as weird neurotic thoughts instead of their core emotions of grief, etc. So they think they’re ready one minute, then decide they aren’t the next.
If you do decide to move, I do think the Bay Area has a larger percentage of emotionally developed, progressive men than other areas (without the womanizer culture of cities like NYC).
Monday
I even think some men enjoy trying to work out their emotional stuff via dating. Women are generally better listeners than men, especially if they think you’re cute. Then when the relationship starts asking too much of them, they bail (and possibly just take their baggage to the next willing woman).
Anon
Yes!! I also know lots of cases where the guy decided he wasn’t ready for a commitment after all, dumped the girlfriend, and then proceed to marry the next person he dated. It’s infuriating.
Anon
In that case it sounds like they’re using commitment as an excuse when really it’s the specific person they don’t want to commit to.
Anonymous
I experienced the first part of your post so many times. A lot of times he got married to the next girl. People will say it’s because he wanted marriage just not marriage with you. But I think a lot of men have this idealized vision of what it’s like to have a gf: she bends over backwards for him and never has her own wants or needs. He dates a few women and realizes his expectations are unreasonable and yes he really does have to compromise: no you’re not spending all weekend plus two weeknights for half the year watching sportsball and refusing to attentively attend even things like weddings and funerals. Once he gets it through his head that women are people who have their own lives, he becomes a great(ish) partner!
Anonymous
Main issues between my husband and I are super minor. I need to be less sloppy around the house. He needs to be less rigid sometimes with thinking about how something has to be done. Real disagreements are few and far between though. I think it helps that we share mostly the same values and opinions about the world. We also don’t have kids in the house, so it affords a lot of time on our own or together without much stress or hustle. My stepson is grown now and even when he was younger, I would stay out of most parenting and just enjoy being a support for him since he was already a teen when I came along. I can see where that relationship might have been tougher to navigate had he been younger or perhaps if either of us had different personalities (stepson is super chill and funny and sweet–I hit the jack pot with him). We share similar philosophies on spending and saving. My husband makes a lot more than me and has always been super generous about things, and I earn a fairly decent salary myself and was already established when we met. I could see if we weren’t aligned there or if situations were different, then perhaps that could be stressful. Some (not all) of my friends who are SAHMs seem a lot more stressed about money or even just perceptions on how they are spending it–almost like spouse as parent or something. One thing that did surprise me is that my husband and I don’t share a ton of hobbies. He’s super into sports and all about going into the city. I like nature. So we spend a fair amount of our weekends apart (usually doing dinner together after different days). But it works for us and sometimes I think it’s even a benefit since we both have pretty strong social networks outside of each other.
Monday
My partner has ADD, and pretty much every issue I ever have with him stems from that: running late, losing things, forgetting tasks, needing a lot of reminders, even losing track of what we are doing while we are doing it (as in shared household-type work). He really does his best, never denies the issue, and is great in every other way. So I’m able to accept it and never forget that it isn’t his fault.
I wonder what his biggest issue is with me!
Seafinch
Same. He had no idea he had it and even working toward the diagnosis has been super liberating for both of us. But most of my issues arise from the impulsivity and lack of focus. He was also raised to be very self centered so that has been challenging. But knowing what was going on and driving him has really helped.
Seafinch
*Typo* I have no idea where the “driving him” came from disregard.
Anon
I’m single in my mid-thirties and dating is so awful I’ve basically given up on it, if that tells you anything.
Anon
Married 13 years, one preschool age child.
Most of our disagreements are about small stuff like household chores and parenting tasks. In this stage of life, there’s just a lot to do and it’s tiring and we bicker. I don’t think we have a lot of big picture issues but I would say some things that have caused bigger conflicts in the past are how we manage his father (who I consider emotionally abusive and don’t really want around me or my kid) and how much time and money we spend on travel (my husband is frugal and doesn’t particularly like traveling, and I love it and want to spend money on it, so we definitely don’t see eye to eye on that).
Anon
It’s the hardest time, having little kids. They’re so cute and sweet and you will miss them at this stage when they get older, but your marriage will be so much easier once they do!!
Senior Attorney
Honestly we don’t disagree on much — we have no children at home, we have enough money, our jobs are low stress, so what’s to disagree about? The biggest thing that has arisen has been how to deal with a close friend of my husband’s who, for reasons unknown, has been shockingly rude to me and has stalked a friend of ours. I have personally cut him off but it’s been hard for Hubby, who has been close to this guy for 20-plus years. We got there in the end but it was a process.
Early on, there was a bit of an issue relating to the fact that I was a Feelings Talker and he most definitely was not, but he’s opened up quite a bit and I’ve gotten used to his communication style, so that’s not really an issue any more.
Beyond that, we are proponents of the Price of Admission theory, plus we presume good intentions, so again… vanishingly few opportunities for conflict.
Mouse
How did you improve on the “feelings talker” vs not issue? We have the same dynamic. Me and my husband have been together almost six years and it’s gotten a bit better, but would be curious to know what helped for you, if you’re willing to share. :)
Vicky Austin
Following with interest, and here to share what little things I’ve learned in 7ish years!
This was tough for me, but I had to really find a balance between leaning completely on friends for emotional support (and thus turning my marriage to a husk), versus continuing to expect something of my husband he wasn’t able to give. Eventually, what helped with that was giving my husband periodic, summarized updates on minor emotional issues, but keeping the long, group-chat dissections and discussions with friends. If my friends help me arrive at an insight I didn’t have before, I tell my husband about it, but without all the processing that we went through to get there, ha.
He’s also worked very hard to listen rather than fix (that age-old struggle) and to understand that I’m not being mopey or pessimistic or anti-solution-oriented just because I don’t want to hear about solutions yet.
Senior Attorney
Well, it first came up when I realized I was in love with him, and I was fighting my “the first one to say the L Word loses” impulse. I finally decided I was a person who felt things and wanted things and one of the things I felt was that I loved him, and one of the things I wanted was to tell him that. And I actually busted out a George Elliott quote to that effect (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/753-i-like-not-only-to-be-loved-but-also-to ) and he was receptive, and then we had a little more of a talk about our feelings-talking styles. And I asked him if his problem was mainly hearing it or saying it, and he allowed as how it was mostly saying it and he didn’t mind hearing it. So after that I felt free to say it but I tried not to abuse my Feelings Talking privileges. And over time he loosened up a little, but hilariously he still waxes the most adoring when he has a few drinks in him. And I realize that his actions speak louder than any words ever could so I pay attention to that, too.
tl;dr, we talked about it even though it was hard and we both modified our expectations a bit
Senior Attorney
Oh, and also we don’t really do hurt feelings — the thing with the longtime friend was pretty much the only time I had to tell him he was doing something that bothered me, and again, we talked about it (at length, on multiple occasions including one couples counseling session) and ultimately worked it out. See “presume good intentions,” above.
Anonymous
Married a long time. Fundamental disagreements in the way we understand apologies has been a big one. One we’ve improved on a lot is how we talk with each other about feelings.
Anonymous
I’ve been married for 14 years; known him for 16. We don’t really fight – we get pissy about small things like dishes and mess, and he can be passive aggressive sometimes but it’s nothing a date night doesn’t fix for us.
Anonymous
Same. We’re both attorneys and people always assume we fight a lot. But honestly, we never actually fight. I can’t remember ever having a “fight” with him. We both get pissy sometimes – mostly chore/house related – both it passes quickly.
Lizard
I sometimes wonder if we attorneys fight less because we are trained to be able to take either side in any argument :) And we know all too well that there is no right or wrong – “it depends”!
Anonymous
My husband has too many projects/interest/hobbies at once. I’ve done a lot of work not to care as long as they don’t impact me/the whole family/my space/our finances but OMG the number of unfinished projects in my home drives me bonkers.
We have agreed to retire to a small seaside community where I can have a small home and garden and he can have a shop somewhere on the outskirts of town.
Anon
I have been with my spouse for almost 20 years and married 10 (we meet in college). Most of the issue in our relationship come from his low self-esteem and need to be admired by others, this is on top of having depression. He also comes from a family that thinks they have the right and should provide negative feedback to everyone in their life. The way this has showed up in our relationship – 1) one time I had a very crazy work schedule and gained maybe 10-15 lbs and he made lots of negative comments about my body because it meant our public image wasn’t as great as he wants to be; 2) He was a chubby kid and worked really hard to get in shape so that he wouldn’t be looked down upon. He has had an underlying eating disorder which was finally identified by his therapist earlier this year but that I was aware of for a while because he would cycle between working out, eating “healthy” and losing weight to eating like crap, stopping the workout routine and being depressed. During the “healthy” phase, he just talks about workouts and food non-stop in addition to making comments to me about being overweight and during the down phase, he is grumpy and moody; 3) his low-self esteem means that if I start any conversation about a colleague or friend and how they are struggling at work, he immediately makes the conversation about himself wonders if he is like that too; 4) He feels like he needs to be productive and be doing something all the time to better in the eyes of others so he has a hard time relaxing and taking time off.
All this will make him sound terrible but he is not. He is 100% aware of all these things and he has been doing significant amount of work on himself. He is on medication, has a therapist and also we do couples therapy. On top of that he has read many books to understand himself and find a way to move forward. I am very happy with the results but we still have to continue to do work to get over the damage that was done before he started the process. I have to work on getting over the past as well and accept that he has changed. I build a lot of boundaries to protect myself during the bad years that now need to be taken down.
Anonymous
We have an ongoing dumb conflict about whether or not to open the window in our bedroom at night. I sleep hot, he sleeps cold. Big fights tend to come up about uneven division of domestic responsibilities, especially regarding child-related tasks. Also if one of us snaps at the other for any stupid reason, it can escalate and we fight about whether or not we are talking to each other appropriately. This last issue we should really let go (we’ve been together 15 years), but we’re both really sensitive and reactive.
Anonymous
Chili pad for you!! Or at least separate sheets. I love my linen and cooling sheets and lightweight blanket.
Dr. The Original ...
39 and nowhere close… largely what’s come up over the 20+ years of adulthood dating in the midwest, NYC, LA, FL, south, and while attending numerous universities, along with friends’ experiences are hetero men who:
-say they’re okay with a career woman but don’t like one not available when they want them to be.
-say they’re not -ist but then it turns out they are when their reactions of a news story reveal a lot.
-present as ready but then it turns out they aren’t done with the ex or aren’t ready to pour in but expect her to.
-have insecurities about her being more formally educated than they are, which doesn’t come up til public events.
-love the idea of a solid relationship and also want to keep flirting and f’ing and don’t get why that’s not okay w/ her.
-can’t handle emotions so it’s all anger including silent treatment, screaming, and/or violence.
-lack self-motivation and seek a partner to motivate them daily.
-can’t manage themselves and want/expect her to mother them while treating them like a king.
-prioritize wasting their money on substances or fun and expect her to pay for life’s actual necessities.
-expect old-fashioned boundaries like no male friends, always wearing makeup, women handle all cooking, etc.
-require her to do all household and emotional labor and and and and …while offering nothing.
Anonymous
So many of these spoke to me. The entitled, take take take mentality of these men. They expect women to give them everything – heart, mind, body, money – but they think they can give nothing. It’s as if they think they own her and therefore everything she does belongs to them too. Of course if you confronted them with this, they’d deny it, they think they’re very modern.
Anonymous
Over many relationships I’ve found one thing to be true: you can’t both be crazy at the same time. DH is usually the more even tempered one so he levels me out most of the time. But he has his moments too. He’s much more reserved and stoic so it can be challenging to tell when he’s approaching his wits end. We’re both good at taking the reigns and getting ish done when the other is having a moment.
Anon
How to manage our daughter’s chronic illness. We have significant practical disagreements about what to do (even though we are both truly acting in good faith and have only our daughter’s best interests at heart), and it’s so much harder than any issue we’ve ever dealt with before because it’s very hard to compromise when you feel like your child’s health is at stake. We have been together a long time and fundamentally really respect each other, so we are making progress on getting on the same page, but it’s very slow and very hard.
anon
I have a chronically ill daughter as well. We’re on the same page about it but often end up having stupid unrelated fights because we’re both emotionally wrung out from dealing with her condition. It is really hard.
Anon
Thanks for posting — I wish there weren’t anyone else in the kid-chronic-illness boat, but it’s also comforting to feel less alone. From the outside I think it looks like we’re managing well, but I had no idea how hard this would be. Best wishes to you and your family.
anon
I’m married. The biggest challenge in our marriage is that my husband has an incredibly difficult relationship with his ex-wife and they’re in active litigation over custody; her interactions with him are pretty emotionally abusive and so he’s in a rough state after he has to talk with her or gets an email from her. That in turn places both an emotional and logistical burden on me because often he needs time to calm down and put himself back together and so I have to deal with the kids, dog, household, etc. while he does that. I don’t get angry about it, but it’s hard.
I was single for most of my 30s and loved it, tbh. I did a ton of solo travel and travel with my fellow single ladies and had amazing experiences that are off the table now that I have three children/stepchildren.
Anonyous
We tried to gamify this dynamic by predicting what she would do in X situation and whoever’s prediction came true got the garden party favor of his or her choice next time we were in the garden.
Anon
Has he looked into any resources for blunting the impact of her words and behaviour? For example, can his lawyer handle more of it, if affordable for you? Can you read her emails and give him the executive summary (keeping the emotional abusive elements to yourself)? Talking with a professional to get a toolbox for managing interactions with her?
Anon
Do NOT take on the emotional or other labor if translating your husband’s ex wife’s messages to him, especially about custody. He should have a parenting app and a court ordered, enforceable custody schedule and inky communicate as necessary. Send anything not on the app or through the courts/ lawyers straight to delete.
Anon
They are in “active litigation over custody”, per the OP’s post. That means that “a court ordered, enforceable custody schedule” is exactly the issue in question.
Anonymous
I’m single and I love making my own way and decisions without having to account for someone else. I love that my free time is mine alone. I love love love living alone I find it peaceful and pleasant. I love not having to compromise. I love not having in laws.
Anon
+1 to all of this!!
Senior Attorney
Honestly although I am sublimely happy now in my third marriage, other than that I was happiest when I was between marriages, both times. It is SO MUCH BETTER to be on your own than to be with somebody who is not wonderful.
Anonymous
I’ve been married 30 years. Biggest issues were surrounding the kids and discipline. So happy they are grown now. Also how to spend money, especially on the house. When something breaks or starts to look shabby I want it fixed or replaced. He is more content to live in somewhat more rundown circumstances.
Anonymous
This is so dumb but: where to put our feet vis a vis the coffee table. He loves the couch and coffee table he had before we met. The couch is too high for me, my feet don’t touch the ground even if I’m sitting all the way forward, and the table is super battered. But whatever they’re serviceable (and all the other furniture is mine) so we’ve kept them. The coffee table has a ~2 inch ledge at the bottom about an inch off the ground. I put my feet on the ledge because I can’t reach the floor but I can reach the thing 3” off the floor. He likes to put his toes under the ledge. The ledge is flimsy so I’m always pinching his poor toes if I sit down after him. I swear I’m doing it for comfort and not to passive aggressively convince him we need a new couch and table!
Anotheranon
i love this story
Anon
Foot Stool Under Desk with Non-Slip Pine Legs Linen Fabric Rectangle Small Ottoman Foot Rest Step Stool with Handle Soft Foot Stand Computer Footstool for Couch Office Living Room Cats Bedroom https://a.co/d/49iONN0
Just a thought. One of my relatives had the short legs, couch problem and she had a little footstool -not an ottoman- that stayed in front of the spot where she usually sat. Hers was green velvet with brass legs :)
Anon
This just came up (as it does basically every year): My husband is close to his parents and siblings. If he had his way, we would spend every holiday and vacation with them (although fortunately they like to travel and are very active so this often takes the form of renting a big house or couple of houses at some agreed upon location; at least we are not all sitting around at their house). I like my in-laws but don’t want to spend that much time with them. We compromise on switching who picks what we do (so this year we went skiing for Thanksgiving break since it was my year to chose and are spending Christmas with his family). The problem is that he ALWAYS wants to visit his family when it is his “turn.” He feels the need to attend every family event. He talks to his parents and/or siblings every day (which I had not really appreciated until he started working from home more because he had always called them during his commute). And while he respects my requests to not discuss my personal details with them, he share more than I would like. It is a pretty constant source of low-level disagreement.
He is also a much more lenient parent than I am; although we agree on the necessity of a united front, but the older our children get the harder that is.
And finally, he came from a well-off family and I did not. So he tends to throw money at problems (this particularly comes up whenever I complain about division of labor). Left to my own, I would probably save more than he does – but I have largely let that go since it adds up to a few thousand dollars and it is more of a matter of principle than finances.
Anon
DH and I share the same values and see the world the same, so that tends to reduce disagreements. Our arguments usually relate to division of responsibilities. We have 2 elementary aged kids and 2 stressful “big” jobs. There just isn’t enough time and we’re constantly one small step away from chaos. He was raised being supported by a SAHM and even though he always says he 100% supports my job, when push comes to shove if we’re both in a crunch and something family related comes up, I end up being the one to drop everything to handle it rather than him. Despite having much more flexibility and built up goodwill (he’s been at the same company for over 15 years with understanding colleagues, and I just transitioned to a new job several months ago so am still trying to make a good impression) he claim he “can’t” handle when a kid gets sick or whatnot because his schedule is more meeting heavy and mine is less so. I’m also the default parent on many time consuming matters (planning birthday parties, kids laundry, scheduling Dr appointments, making sure kids have weather appropriate clothes/boots/coats that fit, and so on), although he does most of the cooking/ meal planning and thinks that balances out. We’ve also gotten into many arguments when he took up a very intense and time consuming sport (marathon running) as I felt it was unfair when I have no time to dedicate to any hobbies. He would just say that I could take up a hobby at any time and he would support me, but in reality based on our schedules that would not have been possible. Overall he does a lot for the family and we don’t fight a lot, but these same arguments flare up over and over whenever we’re both stretched too thin.
Anon
I’m resentful just reading this. Do take up a hobby just for you! Make your husband walk the walk instead of just talking the talk.
Anon
OP of this comment here. Thanks for this. I am realizing that I’m becoming more and more resentful. I think I need to take your advice and just start taking time for myself and make him step up to what he says he’s willing to do.
Anon
Did you post about the running thing here before? I remember being ragey on your behalf.
Anon
I’m single and staunchly childfree, and my biggest issue by far in online dating is finding men who also don’t want kids. I paid for bumble premium to see who likes me and it’s literally hundreds of profiles that say they want kids. And there’s no way to filter your likes. It says on my profile in THREE different places that I don’t want kids. Sometimes I’ll match with guys who don’t state their stance on their profile, only for them to say “oh sorry, I didn’t read your profile, I actually do want kids.” Well Christ, Kevin, YOU SHOULD PUT THAT ON YOUR PROFILE. It’s all such a waste of time.
Anon
I have a staunchly CF male friend who would love to meet a woman who is CF. The pain is mutual… he struggles with it.
Dr. The Original ...
Also childfree– please introduce me because d@mmit if there aren’t so.many.Kevins who see pics and swipe, without saying they want kids. Then there are the dudes who chastise me for being too serious too fast when I ask if they want kids upfront so I don’t waste time chatting if they do. UGH!
Senior Attorney
Get your act together, Kevin! Sheesh!
Anon
Haha I know a real jerk named Kevin and am here for Kevin being the generic annoying bro name.
Anonymous
I know a real-life coworker jerk named Karen. Has given me and my work bestie endless hours of joy that it has become the generic annoying lady. (And Karen is a stereotypical Karen FWIW)
Duckles
+1 the pool of men who don’t want kids is very, very small. I want men who have thought about it and are ok not having kids, because I just don’t trust that these men who never have considered it—because they’re men and they’ve never had to consider it— won’t decide at 40 they do and look for a 32 year old who does.
Anon
He’s horrible in bed. No two ways about it. We fight about this a LOT, because gardening is not just unsatisfying for me, it’s negative satisfying.
We have very different approaches to “friends” or families of origin who try to run our marriage, hit on one of us, take shots at the other person (e.g. my “friends” snarking about DH or his “friends” and family of origin snarking at me). I am cynical AF and tell people on “my side” to shape up or get out of my life. DH will tell me ad nauseam that people on “his side” meant well, it’s a misunderstanding, I’m being callous, he wants us to be friends some day…..
Anon
Did you not garden before marriage? Or did you accept this is a price of admission and then it became a bigger deal over time? Not trying to be snarky, just very curious about this.
Anon
Religious, did not.
ArenKay
I have to say, this doesn’t sound good. Not just the gardening stuff but more the second paragraph; it just sounds like DH does not have your back in the way that spouses should. I would *really* resent a spouse whose default position seemed to be that I misread all of his family and friends.
Anon
I love this question! I’m mid thirties and very single and I think I’m moving from single by chance to single by choice. I don’t want kids, so there’s no biological clock ticking. I’m very busy with life/work/hobbies and for the most part, happy with my life the way it is.
Dating in my experience is a pain. I’m in a city with tech bro vibes and I swear the amount of profiles I’ve come across who mention tacos and beer like they are personality traits is alarming. I think a lot of guys say they want a long term relationship because that’s what they think women are looking for, not because that’s what they themselves want or are ready for. Basically, I see a lot of almost 40 year old men with Peter Pan syndrome, acting like over grown frat boys. In talking to friends and family who are a similar age and also single, this sees to be super common, at least in my area. I’m on an app at the moment, but honestly I think I’m just over it. I’m happy enough with my life the way it is, why spend my limited time on men who aren’t worth it.
Anon
+1 to all of this
Anon
Single and I love my physical living space – it’s just the way I like it, always as clean as I left it, perfect for just me. I deeply deeply appreciate my independence – I’m free to decide whatever. As an introvert I appreciate having times where I am simply not being observed/don’t have to interact in any way. Also I find it enjoyable that it feels like my life is made up of a rich variety of relationships.
I think it helps massively both for me to normalize my life experience and to enable me to enjoy it that of my friend group, only around 1/5 are married, even fewer have children, and maybe 2/5 are also single. And that among them are people who feel like family. Friend group is mid 30s- mid 40s
Anon
My husband and I have been married for a long time, with now-adult kids, so clearly we’re in it for the long haul. We were both married young to other people, so we came into it knowing some of the pitfalls.
Little fights are as much about underlying stress from external sources as they are about what’s actually happening in our relationship. We get on each other’s nerves when everything is getting on our nerves, and it’s never a really big fight.
When our kids were little and we both had medium to big corporate jobs, that was really the hardest period of our marriage. We fought about division of labor, money, sex, you name it. But as the kids get older things do get easier, and even though the teen years can kind of suck, for us it was more us vs the teen than us vs each other.
Things we’ve learned along the way – we are not joined at the hip. We can have separate interests and we can socialize separately. Division of labor works better for us when we each have our own areas (ie I cook, he does laundry) rather than trying to take turns at everything and get in each other’s way.
My husband has learned the hard way that things you say can’t be unsaid, and some of the hurtful things he said to me when he was angry still ring in both of our ears. I’m more of the stomp off and be mad alone type, and honestly, I recommend that. Sort of a time out.
Sex is important. Don’t neglect it or put it last. Schedule it if you need to.
Those are all of my pearls of wisdom for the day!
Anon
I’ve been married a long time, 37 years. Now that we are empty nesters, and mostly retired, we don’t fight much at all and usually get along great. But in our younger years, things could get rough, mostly about our kids. Our son was very difficult, ADHD, etc., and had an explosive temper. DH would react to our son with his own explosive temper and in no time we would frequently find ourselves in World War III. We spent a lot of time and money in counseling and eventually things got better and our son grew up and outgrew, or got treatment for, a lot of his issues. DH also went to individual therapy and was put on medication. But our home was not a nice place for many years, especially for our daughter. Sometimes I wonder how we all survived it. But you asked….
Trish
Married over 20 years and have an adult child. We have similar values and ideas about money, raising our child, community responsibility, and housekeeping. He refused to get vaccinated for Covid.Over the years,he’s become more suspicious of the medical profession and Im glad this didn’t arise when our son was a baby,
Anonymous
Does anyone else have the Frontier airlines deal where a kid flies free? We just signed up for it; I’d love any tips to get the most out of it.
Anon
There are probably a lot of conditions on it. I know someone who bought their “unlimited flying” pass and then was pretty surprised to discover it only works on a tiny percentage of flights.
Anonymous
Not surprising, Frontier nickel and dimes you for everything.
Anon
Yeah, it wasn’t surprising to me but it was surprising to my friend.
Anonymous
We saved about $90 if we signed up today (and it costs $60+40 enrollment fee) so we went for it.
Jane
This is going to sound super silly but I am in desperate need of new hobbies! I know it is supposed to be something I liked as a child or at some point, but I grew up poor in a very restrictive environment where if you were awake you were expected to parent your younger siblings or study for grades. I like reading and I do that plenty but I feel I am almost 40 and have no real hobbies. I don’t love “hiking” or running and really need to push myself to do anything active. I tried knitting and needlepoint as well as painting but I was forcing myself to do those instead of really enjoying them. Years of growing up that way also makes me resist spending too much money on myself or in pursuit of hobbies that look potentially fun from outside like horseriding. Please be kind in your responses.
Anon
Even people who are really athletic have to push themselves to do it, so I wouldn’t totally rule out anything physical or exercise-y yet. Maybe quilting or sewing? It could be the fiber arts are not your thing, but they’re quite different from knitting or needlepoint. Photography? Bird watching? Wood working?
Anon
Reading has really been my only extracurricular interest too so I just decided to turn that more into a hobby. I track the books I read on good reads, am slowly doing an around the world reading challenge, and I am diligent about always keeping my queue filled in the libby app (so I always have a book to read when I finish one). It’s worked for me! I’d say embrace reading.
anonshmanon
I can very much relate to the issue of not spending money on myself. Can you set yourself a budget of ‘fun money’ and work very hard on not feeling bad about spending that sum?
I have gotten a lot out of taking pottery classes.
Anonymous
You’ve told us a bit about what you haven’t enjoyed, but what DO you enjoy? Is there something that looks like fun that you didn’t get a chance to try when you were busy studying? Try that! Maybe it will be a long term hobby, maybe not. You’re not obligated to have hobbies at all, let alone lifetime hobbies.
(Or if horseback is really it and you don’t feel up to spending a ton… start small. One lesson. One trail ride. You don’t have to buy your own horse, after all.)
Anonymous
Agree on the horseback riding if it’s really something you want to try. It doesn’t actually have to be *that* expensive, depending on how you do it. Lessons at my barn are $55 a lesson, which I realize is still not super cheap, but I don’t think it’s as expensive as some people imagine if you don’t show or own a horse or do fancy things.
pugsnbourbon
+1. I think you should do the horseback riding. Even if it’s just a couple of introductory trail rides – give your inner child what she wants :)
Anon
Yep. Give it a try. You can get boots and a helmet for less than $50 a pop to see if you enjoy it (and if the barn doesn’t have loan equipment). I took it up after 2 decades away and it was a hard transition back in but fun.
Happy to recommend some inexpensive boots, leggings, and helmets from am*zon if you go that route.
Anon at 4:23
PS I don’t have hobbies outside of reading and tv most of the time. Demanding job plus a toddler doesn’t leave a ton of time. Riding in my area is pretty seasonal too which doesn’t help.
Anon
My only “hobbies” are reading and traveling, if you can even call the latter a hobby. I don’t think you need “hobbies” to have a good life. What about volunteer work? That’s very emotionally fulfilling for me.
Anonymous
I’m very similar to you. Never had hobbies and my home set up growing up was an immigrant family – we either studied non stop or watched TV because with parents working all the time and coming from a country where college admissions were all about grades alone, they saw zero value in driving us to and from soccer or any other EC because “what will soccer or field hockey get you, it’s a waste of time.” And living in the deep suburbs you couldn’t walk anywhere.
Only hobby I ever picked up was during the pandemic – learning French and two years later I’m still at it. I feel like reading to learn something outside of work is a hobby for me whether it’s French or finance. YMMV.
I’m also mildly good at putting things together and generally being handy so I feel like I’d love to try wood working or something similar but alas I’m in an apartment right now.
hobbies
You could still take a wood working class at the local community college, art school etc… And I’ve always wanted to search on Craig’s list or garage sales and pick up interesting pieces of wood furniture and restore them myself. It’s amazing what you can learn on YouTube.
It’s such a good feeling!
Hobbies are my hobby
My main hobby is trying new hobbies. Some ideas for you:
Cooking/baking- I had to do some of this anyways, so why not have fun with it- though I also go through phases where food is fuel and I’m cooking simple things/eating lots of frozen meals so that I don’t resent it and stop liking to cook/bake.
“Social” athletic things- join a running group, go rock climbing with a friend, go to a fitness class with a friend- if you have friends who already do some of these, ask to join. (I like running a lot better when I meet up with a friend for a run and coffee/brunch)
I’ve also gone through periods where I would try something new just because (aim to do 1-2 a month or something) and try things out- this is where some of the more expensive things are likely to come in where your goal is to try it without big $$ commitment- cooking class, adult gymnastics, circus, painting or pottery classes. You can also do these alone or with a friend.
Anon
I don’t really have “hobbies” other than reading either but it doesn’t bother me? I read a ton, watch TV, spend time with friends, occasionally play Nintendo, sometimes I bake. That’s enough for me.
anon
Same here. I love reading, eating good food and drinks and occasionally traveling. I’m an animal lover and I volunteer at a shelter once a week.
Anonymous
What about taking some creative art classes – glass making, pottery, photography, etc? Could see if your county rec parks has anything to start for more affordable classes. I’m currently getting into theater and musicals, and between regional theatre and finding good deals online, it’s been more affordable than I expected (tickets are around the $30-40 range).
Anonymous
Why not just pick 1 weekend a week to try something new – take a glassblowing class, or go to a museum you haven’t been to in a while, or do a minigolf weekend – and then see what you want to get deeper into? Groupon might be good for this if you’re stuck.
Mouse
If I were you, I’d pay attention to things you come across that get you excited, or that you find very interesting, and go from there. Seems like horseriding is one of those things! There’s no harm in trying it a few times to see how it goes. Maybe it leads to interest in horseracing, etc. You never know! Also, you could join things adjacent to what you already like, like a book club, or going to book signings/readings, etc. Enjoy!
Anon
My main hobby is ready but I’ve lately been trying to read in more intentional ways. For example, I’m reading a book related to an art exhibit that I’m excited to see and reading the play that I just got tickets for. Otherwise, I’ve been reading a few books related to something I’ve always wanted to know more about (affordable housing). Before that I went through phases where I read fiction by authors from one particular country or time period. I also always read a bunch of books connected to a place I’m visiting before and after a trip.
Anon
I like the poster whose hobby is trying new hobbies, I think this could be a great approach. Maybe in 2023 you try what seems interesting and see what sticks? If you don’t like running but enjoy solitary sports – maybe try weight lifting. Personally if I had a lot of time I’d join a fencing league (I did this sport in school). Always gotten a lot out of volunteering – with habitat for humanity, as a reading buddy for students on a learning curve, with a nursing home – maybe there is a cause or group you care about. Do you like a certain music genre, you could check out new venues and artists? Maybe a habit not a hobby but podcasts/learning – my current fave is Poetry Unbound. I like learning how to cook different things – last winter I learned how to bake a bunch of German Christmas cookies (Lebkuchen, Zimtsterne, etc). What I would LOVE to do is learn the cello, but I’m worried about the major time investment and upfront cost. In general I would consider time consuming skill development of any kind a hobby (maybe you want to study economics or learn Spanish or learn furniture restoration)
Anon
Bird watching!! Whether at your home or at a park or just on the street. I recommend the Merlin app from Cornell to get started. I’m two years in and obsessed.
Anonymous
Hi – not sure if you’ll see this but trying new stuff is so much fun – even if you’re awful at it, it makes for funny stories. And don’t be self conscious – lots of people try new things later in life just for the adventure of it.
In the last year I’ve tried sliding seat rowing, ice skating and swimming and loved them. Also tried snowboarding and pottery but did not like those.
Next up are ice hockey (there’s a 6 week intro to ice hockey class where I live) and curling and maybe ultimate frisbee next summer. I figure I’ve only got another 30 years or so before I’m too old to be trying new sports so I aim to try a couple a year.
How
Building off a previous question, if you’re frustrated with life in general how do you know whether to go for a therapist or a life coach or a relationship coach or something else?
Dr. The Original ...
Life coaching is poorly regulated with limited training whereas a therapist has a master’s degree and licensure. I would always say to start with a therapist to figure out what the problem is. Then, you can work with them to make a plan, which may involve other professionals. This way you have a true trained expert and it’ll help you make a plan. In the meantime, be gentle with yourself while you work it through!
Aunt Jamesina
I completely agree with this, and anecdotally, the life coaches I know are mostly people who don’t have their lives together at all and seem to be chasing the latest “solution” rather than getting to the root of their issues.
Anonforthis
OMG, the worst boss I ever had was fired and then reinvented himself as a “life coach”. I feel sorry for whoever gave him $$ for his advice!
Anon
A woman across the street told me she was a faith-based life coach. Oh, cool. Okay.
Turns out her “faith” involves chanelling archangels and galactic dragons. Sadly, she’s very successful.
anon
I mean, I have days when I feel like I need to channel some dragons. But I probably wouldn’t pay someone to do it for me, lol.
Vicky Austin
Due to logistics/life/stuff, DH and I will be on our own for Christmas this year. We’ve done it before, but this is our last Christmas before baby comes in spring and we were talking about ideas to make it special. Since we’re not wedded to any particular food traditions, he suggested finding something we could make together, sort of an all-day project thing. Any suggestions?
Anon
Oooh fun! Maybe cassoulet? I have some friends who make mole every Thanksgiving and that requires a lot of stirring and simmering.
Anecdata
I remember grabbing a recipe from someone whose tradition was to brew up a Christmas wine each year (to be ready for tasting next year!) and thought that sounded like a lot of fun
Anon
Croissants and macarons are fun baking projects that take a lot longer than just whipping up a batch of brownies or cookies.
Senior Attorney
Or you could be Sicilian and make arancini. Delicious and time consuming.
Also moussakka is quite time consuming.
Senior Attorney
Or build and decorate a gingerbread house!
nananon
Love this idea!
Anonymous
Gumbo takes a while thanks to the roux. You can trade off on the constant stirring.
Anonymous
If this is your last Christmas before a baby, I would focus on things that would involve hiring a babysitter (going to movies, shows, bars, restaurants, etc) and/or sleeping. Ideally both.
Vicky Austin
I get the entire week after Christmas off due to some lucky circumstances, so have no fear, I will be sleeping then!
Anon
+1 Staycation for even a night somewhere fancy.
Anon
Homemade pasta with fillings – did it one year and it was fun, took some time but not demanding.
Anon
+1 multiple kinds of homemade pasta is my plan for Christmas break this year. We took a cooking class in Italy last summer but it’s pretty simple, you don’t need a class to do it.
Aunt Jamesina
Any kind of dumpling is my vote!
Anonymous
In 2020 my daughter and I spent a whole day making the yule log from Sally’s Baking Addiction. It was both beautiful and delicious.
Anon
Emily Schuman also has a great yule log recipe/tutorial.
Anne-on
Fun! We did this the year I was very pregnant for New Years Eve. We made butterscotch pudding and bolgnese with homemade pasta (bucatini) – both took a LONG time but with plenty of downtime in between certain steps so it wasn’t too stressful. We also stocked up on fun appetizers so we (me) could eat throughout the day and the food was more of a fun bonus project. As I recall the pasta took so long we wound up having it for dinner on New Years Day and ate appetizers/pudding for dinner!
anon
Beef wellington with french onion soup. Your house will smell amazing.
Anon
Ooh I want this now.
Anonymous
If you are carnivores and want to indulge, porchetta is a project that results in something special occasion-worthy and also leaves you with amazing leftovers so you can have the cooking project day followed by a kitchen reprieve. Recipes on the internet vary, including by the time investment, but the NYT one has worked out.
Anon
Roast duck or an goose isn’t quite all day, but doing it the way where you prick the skin and steam it over a rack before roasting it is time consuming. Then you roast the duck, cook potatoes in that duck or goose fat / water mixture from the steaming (omg yum), and make some sort of wilted green with some (not all!) of the duck or goose fat left in the roasting pan. It’s fun to do and beyond delicious.
Church Jeans Anon
Reposting a follow-up since it was so late on the morning thread.
Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement. I am Christian, although not extremely conservative, and that has been part of the issue in deciding where to go next. I have read a lot in the last couple of years and have gotten comfortable with the idea that even Jesus does not approve of an abusive relationship of any kind. If any of you remember from a couple of years ago, I am the same person who found listening devices in my handbag on a few occasions. That was the first thing that led me to dig deeper into what is ok and what is not. The listening device issue is illegal in my state and I think that is when I really began to figure out how mad things were. I am still wrestling with lots of things, but have finally come to the realization that he won’t get better, just change his tactics. One of those tactics was to take more control over the finances so it makes it really difficult to set anything aside, but I am trying a small bit at a time. I did some counseling a while back, but think I also need to start that again to help me keep my perspective and not get sucked back in.
Anon
Please get counselling outside your church! You need unbiased help. Best of luck to you.
Vicky Austin
I do remember the listening device post. I am glad you’re here to tell us about it and that it marked a turning point for you. Do you have non-church friends who can support you if your church community takes your husband’s “side”? I have seen this happen a lot and would want a network at the ready.
Anon
Ohh, I remember the listening devices. I didn’t know that was you, too. Oh, please, please continue to seek counseling and get out. There are women’s hotlines that will help you escape if things get bad. You don’t have to live like this. You aren’t supposed to live like this!
I encourage you to look into the concept of Ignatian discernment. Super briefly, this swashbuckling courtier in Europe in the 1500s named Ignatius de Loyola was badly wounded in battle, and he was sent back to his family castle to recuperate. As he was laying there for months, he began to realize that when he thought about God wanted for him, he was more satisfied than when he dreamed about charming all the ladies at court or winning on the battlefield. He ended up renouncing his worldly ways, becoming a priest, wandering through caves and praying for months on end, and doing some fantastic writing about what it means to follow God’s will for our life. He’s the founder of the Jesuits (and any school you know of named Loyola was founded by them, plus many others).
I bring up Ignatian spirituality because I think it can be useful in countering our mortal ideas of what we think God wants for us (holla if you grew up in a “life on earth is about suffering” church) and the “shoulds” that we feel society is throwing at us. It gives you the spiritual tools to learn to tune that out and really listen for God’s voice, which is more loving than we could ever imagine. God wants the very best for you.
I’ve never been in your shoes, but this book helped set me on a path to finding God’s will for my life and to really understanding that he didn’t want me to suffer and that I wasn’t obligated by society’s “shoulds.” It was life-changing for me, and I hope it might help you. https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Voice-Within-Ignatian-Discover/dp/0829428615
You’ll be in my heart. Please update us as you’re able <3
Peloton
This is a beautiful comment. You should be proud of it.
anon
I also remember the listening device post. I am also a Christian and I absolutely do not believe you are required to stay in this emotionally abusive relationship. I got to a fairly progressive church and there are divorced people there. And there was a weekly support group for families who have gone through divorce, got re-married, etc. I know it can be hard to to think about how to get out this situation. Counseling is a good start. You are in my prayers and I hope you are able to find a way out of this situation.
anon
Jesus absolutely does not want this for you. No God-loving minister or religious institution are in favor of people staying in an abusive marriage, and yours absolutely sounds like it is. I’m of the mainline Protestant variety (Methodist), and I think my pastor put it really well: Sometimes things are so very broken, so un-God-like, that the only path forward to healing is to divorce. What happens within an abusive relationship is NOT God’s design or plan for marriage.
I promise there are church homes that will love and accept you, and do not care about your marital status. But in the meantime, since I suspect you are NOT in one of those churches, I would strongly encourage you to look outside the church walls for help. A safe shelter. A neutral, secular counselor. Your friends and community outside your church.
I am praying for your safety and peace, and I do not say that flippantly or lightly.
Anon 2.0
I would start getting cash back every time you buy something, even if its only $20, and stash it away (even if you have to give it to a friend.) Maybe you can blame inflation if he asks about the higher bills?
Can you start your own account and divert some of your paycheck there as well without him knowing? Maybe say health insurance went up starting Jan 1?
pugsnbourbon
+1. If you typically would use a credit card and he asks why you’re using debit all of a sudden, say the chip got de-magnetized and you haven’t gotten a new one yet.
Good luck to you, we are all rooting for you.
Anon
I went back and reread the listening device post. I am so, so sorry. This seems so difficult and it has obviously been going on for a very long time and taking different forms.
The listening devices post made it seem like he was really trying to control every aspect of your behavior, and that he was hyper-paranoid (like trying to smell bar food on you). It does sound like the intention behind his actions is the same now, but that he’s changing his tactics so it may seem like it’s getting better when it’s not.
My mother was in a really similar situation for 17 years. Your posts remind me of her, in that she took all of it on herself to try and fix. I.E., he’d lose his mind over her eating candy before dinner, so she’d think the problem was her eating candy. But it wasn’t about the candy, and there was no way for her to contort herself that would ever stop the abuse.
She divorced him when I was a kid, and has now been with the love of her life for 20 years. They never fight, it’s a very safe and loving space for the both of them, and they are adorable together. She met him a couple of days after divorcing my dad, but even when she was single, she was infinitely happier than being in the relationship.
I know it’s hard, but please keep posting here for gut-checks or talking to people you trust in real life. Or with your counsellor. Putting it out in the open and getting support (from people who won’t affirm his behavior) should help with not getting sucked back in. Taking baby steps (finding virtual Zoom support groups, reading about DV online, scheduling an informational call with a divorce attorney or researching first steps online) may be helpful ways to start planting the seed and allowing it to take root.
Anon
* couple of years after divorcing my dad
anon
Oh, honey. All of this is not okay. Is there anyone in your offline life who knows what’s going on? Yes, get counseling and hold on to your knowledge that this is not what God wants for you. I find Jeremiah 29:11 meaningful in situations like this:
For I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord.
Plans to prosper you and not to harm you;
Plans to give you hope and a future.
You’ll be in my prayers.
Anonymous
“[E]ven Jesus does not approve of an abusive relationship”?!? He would be the first one to *dis*approve of spousal abuse, at least in my reading. “Turn the other cheek” is not about marriage.
Anon
You’re on here from a work computer he doesn’t have access to, right? If not, please, please, please stop right now, clear your cache, cookies, browsing history, etc and only talk about this from devices he doesn’t have ANY access to.
Anon
Do you need an attorney? Do you feel comfortable posting a general location? We can suggest lawyers.
If you are anywhere near me, I would happily meet up for moral support (and, being very, very involved in my church, can easily give you a half dozen reasons for leaving your husband for the afternoon).
Anon
Re the autism thread from earlier, why is it even called “autism spectrum disorder”? My lay understanding is that is just a different type of neurological wiring, not a real disorder. Nothing is broken or wrong, just different. Is that not right? The DSM term just seems so normative / judge-y (OTOH, homosexuality used to be in the DSM, so I don’t know why we assume they are getting things right with just using ASD labels, but using numbering with it like ASD-1 to ASD-3, and then deciding to drop the Asperger’s label). Maybe there aren’t answers on this (or if there are, they are hotly contested by neurotypical and neurodivergent people), but if there is a good neutral source, I’d be game to read more on this (my cousin has one of these labels, from the old DSM wording).
Anon
I don’t completely agree with this post linked below, but it’s an interesting read with some valid points.
https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/the-gentrification-of-disability
I have a disability and struggle with this issue a lot. My disability really does cause major disadvantages (including chronic pain, which I would very much like to get rid of, if given the choice), but I also have some sympathy for the social model of disability, which emphasizes how society’s lack of accommodation disables us, not just our conditions. It’s complicated.
Anon
I have a friend with an autistic child who cannot go to the grocery store or to church, two of the most important and basic things in that family’s life. Forget amusement parks (which the other kids in the family love).
Another friend has an autistic child who wasn’t identified as such for a while, so their lives are probably very different.
A cousin’s child has likely undiagnosed autism. He has a beautiful voice and is able to sing in their church’s choir and work at a museum gift shop, but may never become 100% self-supporting. He will always likely live with family members in a small town. He is able to drive, but doesn’t socialize outside of his family, church, and co-workers. He seems happy when I see him at family events.
I think one label is hard to use to describe these people because maybe it just deals with one aspect of their lives but they are all unique and I feel like it robs them of their uniqueness and also exposes them to harmful stereotypes.
Anon
Churches, most grocery stores, and amusement parks seem designed to torture people with any kind of sensory defensiveness, even if it’s just from illness or a medication and not fundamental wiring.
I do get that sensory seekers need environments like this. But they’re not for eveyrone.
Anonymous
fyi though – amusement parks have amazing disability passes. Disney and Universal both have passes where you can wait in line virtually or skip the line entirely. When my autistic son was younger I thought he would never ever be able to do the rides for sensory reasons, but at Disney I asked him to try one each day – after he enjoyed the Avatar one I figured he’d be OK with anything, and in fact he had a great trip. Carried noise canceling headphones with me the entire time, though.
Anon
I have heard that about Disney! I’m glad it was a good experience.
Seventh Sister
My husband’s cousin has autism and this cousin will not be able to live independently or be employed. The cousin paints and draws and sculpts beautifully, but cannot make themselves a snack using a microwave. That seems like an entirely different universe from someone who is at an elite college.
Anon
It’s possible that anyone who attended an elite college had more capabilities than this at the time, but autistic graduates of elite colleges can end up unable to live independently later (after undergoing burnout) or never manage to become or stay employed.
An elite college may have a lot of accommodations “built in” that many forms of employment just don’t have (including meals handled, only a limited number of scheduled hours, grace for absenteeism, lots of support and rewards for obsessing over special interests for weeks, no actual work beyond academics, and it only lasts for four years).
Anon
I have a cousin like this who is autistic. He is currently living away from home in some sort of group living situation and doing menial type work, but he’s not self-supporting and never will be. He’s also very vulnerable to being taken advantage of, and needs supervision for this reason.
This is a real problem for his siblings because he has a normal life expectancy and so do their parents, which means one or both of them are going to end up caring for him.
Anonymous
So here’s the thing with labels though – I have no idea what my son (8) will become. My kid is doing well academically (advanced even) and as his language skills get better it’s possible he might be independent or, at least, get a job and/or degree. But who knows – we’re planning on a retirement with him dependent and living with us, maybe in an attached space without an oven.
Also – Puberty Fs with a lot of these kids in bad ways, even the ones who are “high functioning.” There was a NYT article a year or two ago about how a kid who seemed “cured” of autism went off the deep end his freshman year of college.
My only point here is that ALL of these people are off the NT map but not necessarily in discrete spaces. more like an ocean with ebbs and flows. The kid at the elite college could also be the kid who can’t use the microwave.
Anonymous
If you want insurance coverage for therapies, it has to be classified as a disorder. Maybe the name doesn’t need the word “disorder,” but it’s got to be in the DSM.
Anon
This is a good point.
anon
G00gle is your friend, as is g00gle scholar. it lets you go down whatever particular details specific to your interest and doesn’t expect someone here to be the expert writing pages to explain things.
anon
Spectrum literally means “across the spectrum,” meaning the condition presents at various levels of severity and impairment. In that context, 1-2-3 makes sense. IIRC, the Aspberger for whom the disorder was named had some problematic Nazi beliefs, which is one of several reasons that it was dropped. I’ve learned some of this from Psychology Today, but no idea if that’s a truly neutral source.
Anon
My grade school had a program called “extended learner.” I was in it. It meant one end of the spectrum, but was trying to be neutral. It was garbage word salad.
Anonymous
but spectrum means that it’s more like a DJ board with a bunch of switches and dials, which may some days be turned all the way up (sensory sensitivities) and some days all the way down. It isn’t a line graph where you’re set on one end or the other, this is why functioning labels like 1-2-3 are considered harmful these days. (The image from the meme better explains this idea: https://twitter.com/commaficionado/status/1236709469746233345
There’s a ton of ableism among autism researchers in general so it isn’t surprising that the DSM reflects that. Evaluations depend on how much the child annoys neurotypicals, a lot of research has gone to how to “cure” autism basically through eugenics. There was just a study on this – https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.1050897/full
Interesting article on gentrification – I disagree with him that disability is inherently negative, it just means differently abled.
Anon
I think that there is a lot of up-labeling in mental-behavior-type conditions that is really harmful and even belittling to people and their caregivers who truly struggle with the basics, can’t hold employment, can’t participate in many activities (ditto their caregivers and family members).
Allergies are something that also comes in a spectrum, but there is no stigma. “I have allergies” doesn’t get you invited not to be on the sports team, hired as a camp counselor, or hired at an office job. It doesn’t get you excluded from private schools. Autism does all of that. People are prejudiced and will paint with the broadest brush possible.
Anonymous
“how much the child annoys neurotypicals”
Yes this exactly.
Anon
Hello, I like your whole post. Thank you.
Anonymous
Autism is a wide spectrum and it effects everyone differently. For me I would truly call it being wired differently vs a disorder. I’m a certified genius and very successful in my life, but I just can not do the socially expected lies. I would suggest reading into autism resources written by actually autistic people, unfortunately there’s a very strong group of autism parents who really skew the discourse and science.
Anon
Your description reminds me of my father, and brother.
What has been challenging for the rest of us in our family, is the effects that their behavior had on us as children, growing up.
Anonymous
Ah yes, it’s always about how much an autistic person bothers the neurotypicals.
Anon
Well, a baby/toddler/young neurotypical child does have certain needs, and you can’t really explain to them to just accept it. My father didn’t feel comfortable trying to soothe a crying baby or child… couldn’t do it. It had an impact. My brother has similar issues with his one child. It is painful to watch. It was painful to experience. I didn’t understand what was going on.
It doesn’t really help to “understand” it 30 years later. It was needed during childhood.
Anon
I can’t believe it’s December already! Will I be able to read 20 books this month and hit my annual Goodreads goal? Haha. Probably not…although I am only officially working 9 days this month and not anticipating a whole lot of work getting done during those days.
Senior Attorney
Oh, thanks for the reminder! I am at 91 books for the year, so I probably won’t match the 117 I read last year. But I’m in a 119-week streak, which I think is pretty great. All this per Kindle.
Anonymous
If you’re open to paranormal romance: the Immortals After Dark series by Kresley Cole is 17 or 18 books and could absolutely be read in a week.
Anon
That doesn’t sound like my genre but I appreciate the rec! I’m currently tearing through the Stella Rimington spy novels, which were a rec from this site (from Cb I think).
Chambers rankings
I’m a young EP in big law and up for a Chambers ranking for the first time this year. Our marketing folks are less than helpful in the prep. Can anyone who has been through the interview process before shed some light on what I should expect on my interview call?
If you build it...sometimes they don't come
Several months ago, I bought two front-row seats to see a MAJOR band this month. The show is in California. I am flying in.
Nobody wants to go with me. Friends and family have all slowly dropped out. Would you:
– Go alone and take up the extra space dancing; or
– Use an online dating app once I get there to find a stranger to come with me?; or
– Try and sell the ticket at the venue?
Normally I like doing things alone but man I feel like the biggest loser. If front row seats aren’t enough to entice company, no wonder I am single at 40.
Anonymous
I would sell that ticket on stub hub go alone and enjoy it
Cat
+1
Pep
I’d sell the ticket now (using StubHub or whatever) and use that cash to have a great weekend!
Anon
+1
Dr. The Original ...
I think it depends your priorities. If you are only meh about the artist and don’t want to stand there alone, use the app. If you want to risk missing it due to legalities, scalp it. If you bought this ticket because you love this artist, show up for yourself. When the music starts, no one talks and you’ll be surrounded by others who are as excited as you are since they dropped big money on the seats too. You could either chat up the people around you beforehand to try to make a pal (better odds than an app) or you could hang out in your seat on your phone beforehand then get lost in the music when the show begins.
I have gone solo because I hoped to find someone and didn’t and, in the end, enjoyed not having to think about whether the other person is having fun, timing getting a snack or merch to when the other person wanted, or not losing someone in the crowd when it was time to exit. Plus, I got to lose my voice singing along, not yelling to someone over music or worrying about whether they were having fun like I was.
If you want to drop an email, I’ll be your email penpal before the show to keep you company and you can send me pics of your seat and view!
No Face
I saw Hamilton in the front row by myself and had a great time. Sell the other ticket and have fun.
Anon
Theater is different than concerts though I think. I LOVE going to the theater by myself, but would never want to go to a concert by myself. You’re supposed to sit quietly in the theater. Even if you went with friends the only time you would even be able to talk to them would be at intermission. But the whole point of a concert is being loud and boisterous with your friends, group dancing, etc. (To be clear, not judging anyone who enjoys solo concerts — just saying for me at least there is a big difference between theater and concerts as a solo person.)
Anon
As someone who loves music and is a pretty hardcore fan of two particular artists, I disagree that the whole point of concerts is group dancing with friends, etc. For me, it’s absolutely about hearing the artist perform live.
Anon
Fair. But concerts feel social to me in a way theater doesn’t.
Anon
+1 I am a hard core music and concert goer, please do not go with the plan to be loud. I am there to see the musicians, not hear you yell. You can do that at a bar, if you clearly have no interest in the act. (Group dancing I have no problem with).
Duckles
Omg as someone who goes to concerts solo all the time, you are the one thing I hate about some concerts — loud drunk groups screaming over the music.
Anon
I hate concerts and haven’t been to one in probably 25 or 30 years so it’s not me that’s annoying you :) Just saying that my perception of it is a more communal thing and I would feel awkward solo there in a way I don’t at the theater. But clearly other people feel differently!
Shelle
Sell the ticket now, enjoy the show, and tailor the trip details to what you would want without having to consider anyone else! (eat your favorite food, stay out late or turn in early if you feel like it, etc.) Signed, someone whose friend dropped out of a girls trip and who is now planning to enjoy the heck of out my solo vacation.
Anon
I just want to comment that I see you and completely understand. I also bought great seats to a big concert (that I am traveling for) coming up soon, and although I got an aunt who lives nearby to come with me, I was planning on going alone if I had to, and it does make me feel like a loser. I have virtually no friends and it gets embarrassing sometimes. In your case, if you really love the artist (which it sounds like you do) I wouldn’t risk having a bad evening by getting a date to go with me (what if the date is terrible?). I’d post the other seat for sale and go alone, happily.
thanksgiving anxiety
I would do the second option if I were single but I’m a little crazy like that, or some variation like trying to get a friend-of-a-friend to set me up. Can you set your location to that city a few days before you go and start chatting with a few potential guys?
Wow I miss online dating when traveling
Anon
Very very happily married now but that was always a fun part of being single! I say go the dating app route!
Senior Attorney
Uh, what band and where in California?
Anon
I had the same thought. Between SA and me, we have SoCal and the Bay Area covered.
Anonymous
If you want to see the show, then GO! I saw one of my favorite bands in college on my own after a fellow student died and all my friends went to the funeral (I wasn’t close with the individual but they all were). It still is one of my favorite shows and they no longer tour. I don’t regret it for a sec. The prospect of being able to go somewhere fun and make a trip where you play tourist around what you want to do would only sweeten the deal. No one at the show gives one whit about who anyone is or isn’t with. Go have fun. No need to waste the experience with a stranger.
Peloton
I’d see if someone here wanted to buy the ticket off you at face value and be your friend for the night! Women on this board are awesome; either you have a good connection or you’ve been made whole dollars wise and you can just chill next to each other.
Pie
2 low stakes questions.
1. What is your favorite kind of pie? For me it is apple all the way. My husband is convinced no one’s favorite is pumpkin pie, but I want to prove him wrong.
2. Any favorite pie recipes? Have some good crust in the freezer and sad all the thanksgiving leftover pie is gone, so going to make some this weekend!
anon
1. Mine is pumpkin, followed by coconut cream.
2. Pioneer Woman’s chocolate pie is DIVINE, as is the original Libby’s pumpkin pie recipe. Do not try to dress it up and make it fancy and bougie, plz.
Vicky Austin
I love pumpkin!
…but my favorite is my mom’s raspberry-blueberry.
Anon
good apple pie and good pecan pie or my favorites. i don’t really care for pie crust and thus all the ones with the crust on top are not my favorites
Anon
Blueberry, followed by key lime, followed by apple. Pumpkin . . . no; just no.
Anne-on
I don’t love pie but my family does so I make it for the big holidays. After trying many, many different recipes this is truly the flakiest pie crust I’ve ever made: https://smittenkitchen.com/2019/03/extra-flaky-pie-crust/
My personal preference is a tart as I mch prefer a pate sucree to an american pie crust – the classic king arthur recipe is my usual go to.
Anon
I am not a huge pie fan, but apple all the way.
Pep
I do like pumpkin pie!
I like a berry pie in winter, and a peach pie in summer.
DBF and I were going to a BBQ and he wanted to bring a pie. He wanted to bring apple, but I argued hard for peach. We did end up bringing peach and it didn’t last long on the dessert table.
Anon
Tollhouse cookie pie. I’m not a big fruit eater. My favorite fruit pie is blueberry but only if it’s made with wild Maine blueberries.
PolyD
Mine is pumpkin, but only my recipe. It uses canned pumpkin, eggs, brown sugar, evaporated milk, pumpkin pie spice, and brandy. It’s a little more firm than most pumpkin pies I’ve had and has much more flavor.
Close second would be cherry, with a streusel topping. I actually don’t like crust very much, for me it’s just a way to hold the filling.
Anon
Pecan. I just make the karo corn syrup recipe, though I add more pecans. I’ve tried fancier versions with chocolate and other things, but I always go back to this one. I do like pumpkin, but for some reason I actually like it better without the crust. I just make the filling on its own and call it pumpkin pudding. In general, I’m not a big pie crust person and prefer fruit crumbles to any kind of fruit pie. I also like key lime, with a graham cracker crust.
Anonymous
Totally depends on time of year and occasion. Summer: key lime, blueberry. Fall: apple. Thanksgiving: pumpkin. Christmas: pecan. Winter: anything chocolate.
pugsnbourbon
The only pie I’ll pass up is pecan – it just doesn’t do it for me.
I think my top three are key lime, pumpkin, and coconut cream.
Would cheesecake be considered a pie? Morphologically it seems closer to a key lime pie than a birthday cake.
No Face
Cherry and sweet potato.
anon
I don’t love fruit pies and I’m a so-so baker. I like making s’mores pie with store bought graham crust. The filling is 1 cup of steaming hot heavy cream mix with 7oz dark and semi sweet chocolate chips, one egg, and a pinch of salt. Bake at 350 for 18 minutes then top with more graham crust and mini marshmallows. Broil a minute or two until the marshmallows are golden. I also do no-bake oreo pudding pie: store bought oreo crust, devils food chocolate pudding, topped with crushed oreos and whipped cream.
Anon
Strawberry rhubarb for me and one kid, apple for another kid, and none for the third. Pumpkin for my husband.
Cat
Key Lime (the good kind they make in FL, not the Shamrock-Shake-Green fakes) and Strawberry Rhubarb all the way.
Anonymous
Key lime! And the recipe on the back of the Nellie & Joe’s keylime juice bottle. My dad owned a restaurant for years. Their only dessert was key lime pie. People loved it. It was just the Nellie & Joe’s recipe.
Anon
1. PUMPKIN!!!!!
2. Go to Trader Joe’s. Buy frozen pie.
Anonymous
Lemon meringue!
NYNY
I love pie, but I’m not a fan of pumpkin. These are my top pies:
1. Cherry
2. Pecan, but only if I made it (brown the butter, use dark brown sugar, triple the pecans, and a shot of bourbon)
3. Strawberry-rhubarb
4. Peach
5. Lemon meringue
6. Coconut custard
7. Key lime
8. Blueberry
9. Apple
10. Coconut cream
I could keep going. Now I want pie.
Anon
Apple!! Specifically, my mom’s apple pie. She puts so many apples in her pie, which makes them superior to most others, imo.
Anon
Pumpkin, but one recipe only, which calls for more eggs and half the pumpkin most recipes do. It’s more like a custard this way. DELISH.
I despise apple pie with every bone in my body. I find it nauseating.
Anon
Fat Apples Berkeley, chocolate cream pie.
I get it on my birthday and dream of it the other 364 days of the year.
https://fatapplesrestaurant.com/products/chocolate-velvet-piet
S in Chicago
Look up “sour cream raisin pie” and go with a recipe with a meringue top. The name sounds a little crazy but it tastes like rice pudding.It was my dad’s favorite pie and I have won over a gazillion converts making it through the years–I just call it cream raisin pie so no one envisions sour cream on potatoes or something gross like that. Seriously, it is AMAZING. Fun fact: The Bakers Square pie chain used to make it when I was growing up in the Chicago area. Then they only started to have it in Minnesota. When my dad was dying, I asked the local restaurant if I could have one shipped to their store. The staff didn’t charge me. I stood there crying like a baby at their kindness when I came to pick it up. Sadly, the chain has gone out now near me. But I always think of that when someone asks about a truly amazing customer service experience.
Anonymous
Rhubarb is my favorite, Bakewell tart second, Key lime third.
Highly recommend trying a raspberry or cherry Bakewell tart with a generous frangipane topping with your freezer crust. Look at Mary Berry or other UK recipes.
anon
I went to moderation, so trying this again.
Jesus absolutely does not want this for you. No G o d-loving minister or religious institution are in favor of people staying in an abusive marriage, and yours absolutely sounds like it is. I’m of the mainline Protestant variety, and I think my pastor put it really well: Sometimes things are so very broken, so un-G o d-like, that the only path forward to healing is to divorce. What happens within an abusive relationship is NOT G o d’s design or plan for marriage.
I promise there are church homes that will love and accept you regardless of marital status. But in the meantime, since I suspect your church might not be like that, I would strongly encourage you to look outside the church walls for help. A safe shelter. A neutral, secular counselor. Friends and community outside your church.
I am praying for your safety and peace, and I do not say that flippantly or lightly.
Anonymous
I wanted to reply to a comment to the earlier thread about the mid-day holiday party (placing it here so it gets discussion).
I think it is interesting, and very surprising, how many “pods” or “clusters” there are around the country where the absolute norm is women do not work. If you live in a big city on the coasts, sure you have your upper middle class/upper class housewives who don’t work. But if you live in a smaller area, especially in the south, you seem to find more women who stay home than work regardless of socio-economic class. I grew up with a lot of “fundies” (though my family was not), and only a negligible percentage of the now women I grew up with work. Their moms didn’t work, they didn’t get summer jobs, they married and there was no expectation of work. It’s like it is just never on their radar? I do understand that in some cases, the cost of daycare exceeds what they could bring home, but this is definitely not the case in all of these.
Just curious if you see this where you are? I grew up with divorced parents and have ALWAYS believed I need to be able to support myself, so it’s a totally different mindset from just always assuming your husband will provide.
anon
I grew up in an affluent suburb of a big city. A lot of wives had “fun” part time jobs. Like a yoga instructor or they worked at a boutique their girlfriend had opened as a passion project. It was more about keeping busy than remaining in the workforce with up-to-date skills.
anon
I live in Atlanta and grew up in the Atlanta suburbs/exurbs. My current area is very wealthy, and so many, many women don’t work – I’m the only working mother in my immediate neighborhood. It’s 50% two lawyer couples where the wife stopped working at 35 bc after two mat leaves her firm career was stalling and he was gearing up for partner and 50% they met at UGA, he inherited the family car dealership chain, they married at 25 and she stopped working when they had their first kid at 26.
Growing up in a low to moderate-income borderline rural area, most moms I knew worked because their families needed the money, but often not full-time. Some of them had stayed home in the preschool years bc daycare was so expensive, but usually not – usually grandparents or a neighbor lady watched the baby and they went back at 6 weeks.
Anonymous
Oh, man. The number of women from my GA law school graduation class who took Big Law jobs and then got married and quit working all together is infuriating. I wish they had admitted they were never committed to practicing and given their spots in school to someone actually interested in the profession. This was actually a really good track for smart women looking to marry up in the late 90s/early aughts because appearance was almost as important as grades for women looking to get hired in ATL Big Law firms and it then gave them access to a pool of high-earning men and an appearance of not gold digging and having their own standing when they really never had real intentions of pursuing a career. None or very few of them, say, took up pro bono or nonprofit careers or started practicing limited hours in family law or donated a lot of time to charity. They just quit and maybe started a jewelry line when their kids got a bit older. I wish there were a way to filter for this. And yes, some men leave the practice, but the ratio doesn’t even register.
Anon
I live in a college town. I think our school district is about 50-50 working moms vs SAHMs. In many cases, particularly people not associated with the university, it’s an economic decision. Once you have two kids, daycare costs more than many people are bringing home and so the mom stays home because they can’t really afford for her to work. That’s less of an issue for faculty families, but a lot of trailing spouses end up severely under-employed due to the constant moving around that academia requires, and I know more than a few who have quit to stay home rather than stay in a low-paying job that wasn’t fulfilling. TBH I’m in the same boat and would love to be a full-time mom and dedicated volunteer. The only thing that’s holding me back is that I don’t think it would be a good marriage dynamic for me to be financially dependent on my husband.
Anon
And also at least in my area Covid has been a factor. I know at least five women who became SAHMs in the pandemic because they couldn’t deal with the unreliability of childcare, the constant school and daycare closures, etc. So far none of those women have gone back to the workforce but maybe they will at some point in the future.
Anon
It is very Dowager Countess — what is this weekend thing you are talking about? I listened to a podcast this weekend re deposed Russian nobility. They were penniless and begging for money and yet could live in some rooms in someone’s castle and I’m sure they weren’t making dinner from their victory gardens or saving their leftovers. It’s like they were crying that they had to re-wear their ball gowns. I don’t get it. But I see it in my large SEUS city. I feel very punk b/c I have a job (and yet I have only vestigial punk tendencies left).
Anon
What podcast was this?? Sounds very interesting:)
Anon
Some random thing on YouTube that popped up after an Anastasia one.
Anon
Every single one of DH’s female cousins (all in the Charlotte area) are SAHMs. Every single one of them. And they all have at least a bachelor’s, and some a master’s. All their moms worked, so it’s interesting to see so many stay home. All will tell you they had an amazing childhood, so it’s not like they felt they were neglected by their own moms and needed to ensure that didn’t happen to their kids.
It was interesting to me to be in law school (State U) and have some female classmates say they were planning to practice for a few years, then get married and SAH. Like what? Why are here you trudging through all this BS and spending all this money if you don’t have to be or really want to be? And yep, sure enough, those women worked until they got married and had a baby, and see ya.
But, while I may judge their choices (law school put my academic anxiety on overdrive and made me forever hate formal learning, so I cannot fathom going through that if not absolutely necessary), I think this was actually what the women’s movement was about. These women can choose to get advanced degrees and then be SAHMs and not work. Isn’t that CHOICE what it was all about?
But yeah, my Greatest Generation grandmother was married at 21 and stayed home with her 2 boys, 2 girls, Lassie dog and white picket fence, but you bet your buttons she went to secretarial school in 1940 before getting married and she worked part-time for decades once her kids weren’t little anymore. There are no SAHMs in my family, anywhere, in any living generation, so I can’t wrap my mind around it. I think maybe my family’s unspoken views about work are best described as Yankee industry? The idea that you stay busy, contribute to the household and to society, and do the highest work you’re equipped to do.
I will say that military spouses often WANT to be employed but can’t find adequate employment because their spouse moves every 2 years. https://federalnewsnetwork.com/defense-main/2022/03/military-spouse-unemployment-continues-to-weigh-on-service-member-families/
Anon
Hey, I’m in CLT and I think I know these people. Do they not publicly admit that they went to law school and practiced and it only comes out obliquely even though they know you are a lawyer? If so, I definitely know them.
I don’t get how you can practice for a few years unless you have no debt. Law school loans are no joke and it took me a long time to pay them off. My deal was I couldn’t even think about quitting if the loans were outstanding. Maybe no loans is how you get choices?
Anon
I’m not a SAHM but I only practiced law for five years before leaving the profession. I had a merit scholarship so I didn’t have massive debt (<$50k) and I was pretty frugal during my Big Law years (DH and I shared a one bedroom apartment, rarely took vacations because of my job, and so the vast majority of my massive salary went to paying off the debt and then savings). I left Big Law with a ~$300k net worth even though DH had been in grad school earning a $25k stipend for most of that time.
Anon
Different populations :) The cousins are in Charlotte. The classmates are all over.
Anonymous
I’m an elder millenial and grew up in a medium sized city in Georgia (not near Atlanta) and went to private school and a LOT of the moms didn’t work. My mom only worked part time for my dad. I can think of one mom who was a lawyer and a couple of teachers, but mostly SAHMs. This is not quite as true for my generation, but of my high school classmates, especially the ones who completed the UGA-return to hometown circuit, there are still a fair number of SAHMs. Less so with my college friends, though in recent years, a few have been quitting their jobs to stay home either because the childcare math didn’t make sense or burnout from trying to pandemic parent and keep a full time job, which I totally get. But I’m with you on the feeling like I always need to be able to support myself.
Anon
In my area, it’s okay to be a working mom so long as you don’t have a big job. No one seems to mind that teachers, nurses, and social workers work after their kids are born, but there is some definite shade thrown at lawyers and accountants who work. Crazy, because everyone around here works pretty normal hours (80 hour weeks aren’t a thing), so it’s not a matter of the time away from home.
Really, what is boils down to is that being a SAHM, or having a SAHW, is aspirational for many people. Working when you don’t “need” to is frowned upon. It’s a nice city surrounded by poor areas, so there is also a belief that being not-poor is enough. There is definitely an idea of “you can cut back on expenses and not need to work,” but with little view towards retirement savings.
Anon
I got this from some of the moms when my kid was in elementary school – “your husband has a good job; it’s too bad you still have to work.” I was choosing to work so we could save more for retirement and have two incomes to keep the household going in the event that someone lost their job. It was beyond terrifying to me to contemplate having a household with a sole wage-earner and then that person loses their job. As someone said upthread, there are no SAHMs in my family – all the women work, before and after kids – and I can’t contemplate not working if I am able. Life is too uncertain not to have both people working. One of my friends is a SAHM as she and her husband had two kids via IVF and then – completely unexpectedly – had twins. It’s not worth it for her to work and have four kids in daycare. But I see her stress not just at having only one income, but being home all day, and I feel for her. She wishes she could work but there is no reason to do so, if her entire take-home income would go to paying for daycare.
Anon
Exactly – it’s retirement and insurance against job loss. Whether or not we “could” manage day to day on one salary, we have until our mid 60s (likely) to even enough money to last us until 90. Also, being the sole breadwinner is rather stressful and many men dislike that weight on their shoulders.
ArenKay
Leslie Bennetts wrote a very good book on this topic (The Feminine Mistake). She argues that this takes the short view, not just because of job loss, as Anon below shows, but because short-term income strain from daycare more than gets made up by long-term pay increases and retirement contributions from a stable career (income is more than monthly paystubs). Spouses have a higher income ceiling when they stay in the workforce continuously. She also reminds us that there’s no reason only one spouse’s income should be considered “the daycare income,” which I think is right.
Vicky Austin
My mother grew up in such a pod in a large Midwest city, but most of them are affluent and religious and believe in it being the woman’s job to keep the home and raise the kids. My mom herself has worked consistently since finishing college at 23, including a rotating cast of side hustles during the decade-plus she was also a SAHM. I and my sisters are all in fields that no woman in our family has been in before (i.e., not teaching), and all my female cousins on this side are SAHMs with a history of teaching or working in marketing who left the workforce the minute their maternity leave ended, just like their moms and my grandma. (Except for the one who has a super successful wedding planning business in her metro area; I respect the hell out of her.)
Senior Attorney
My mom always worked when I was growing up, and I always assumed I’d work, and I was dumbfounded when I realized that more than half of the moms of my son’s classmates in elementary school didn’t have jobs. This is the L.A. metro area in the late 80s early 90s.
Anon
This seems not surprising to me when the women are actually working around the clock in caretaking, housekeeping, home schooling or volunteering at the local school, etc. It typically makes a lot more sense financially when working would not be enough to pay for daycare anyway. And in my experience, a lot of people in a community do access caretaking from this kind of stay-at-home mom (older people, injured and disabled people, other people’s kids). They will show up with a casserole and might clean the house too. There’s work to be done, and they’re doing it.
To me it stands out more when women literally don’t work (when they have a nanny, housekeeper, hire people to help decorate the house or to garden, and barely cook). I’m not judging; I feel more like I’m actually jealous of the ability to be comfortable and secure being some kind of society wife, but I feel like I would be anxious all the time and want to have a paying job.
Anonymous
Agree, a lot of the lower- and middle-income women I know do precisely this – they are doing things all the time, just not for pay. Childcare, church work, volunteering during school hours, keeping house. And like you I am boggled by women who literally do not work – are they not anxious or bored?
Anon
My old neighbor had a nanny share with another neighbor. Neither worked. One played a LOT of tennis and the other was . . . a bit off IMO.
Anon
Not sure it’s an income thing. The upper class women I know who don’t work volunteer a lot (sometimes very high level volunteering, like being on boards) and are often very involved with churches or synagogues. They might have more money for beauty upkeep and social stuff than women who don’t have as much money, but it’s not like they’re doing nothing 40 hours a week.
Anon
Then maybe the answer to the OP’s question is that this just isn’t a real thing (most women are working one way or another)?
Anonymous
I’m in a wealthy Boston suburb. There are a bunch of SAHMs here with very young kids, but if all the moms I know whose youngest is out of preschool, most work at least part time. It’s a mix of part time career jobs (that’s me, as well as several women I know), full time jobs with decent work/life balance and an amazing nanny, “fun” or passion jobs, and women who otherwise earn money but don’t work in a traditional sense.
Some examples:
– Instagram influencer with 1.5M followers
– sales exec earning $400k/year but aside from occasional travel is home by 5pm (and has a super nanny and a husband with a flex job)
– two biglaw partners that have a live in nanny and his mom lives in their carriage house
– three women that had VP/director level roles, took a few years off for babies and have gone back as consultants/part time/contractors
– non profit workers (never stopped working for kids but have a decent work life balance)
– one family I know bought/licensed/invested in a CrossFit gym before they had their first kid. Mom SAH for 5 years but also did some admin stuff for the gym on the side and taught a few classes. Now that the kids are all in school she’s working full time as a true owner of the business (social media, management, also teaching, programming etc). Husband is in sales and teaches CrossFit on the side. I think they also own a few vacation homes they rent out. Before kids they were both high earning sales execs.
– woman left her advertising career to SAH, while home with kids took up floral design / landscaping and now that the kids are in school she has a booming landscaping business (she does the design, some install, but now she has a small team of landscapers working for her). This one was super fun to watch as she’s been able to really make the economics work and is out earning her (financial services) husband. They have an au pair.
– two mid level manager type jobs where they worked all through the young kid years. Kids do aftercare and both sets of parents live nearby.
– two Big Pharma people; one in sales the other a corporate trainer. When their kids were 4,6,10 she was laid off. She didn’t go back to work and instead started substitute teaching and volunteering (“turns out we don’t actually need the money.”).
Seventh Sister
While there were lots of permanent SAHMs in my neighborhood growing up, my mother (who worked pretty much full time except for a few part-time stints) always drove home the point that I absolutely, positively, could not depend 100% on a man and had to have a career where I could support myself as an adult.
Her mom (my grandmother) and my great-aunts were pretty much up sh*t creek when their dad died in September 1929. They went from being the wife and daughters of a prosperous shop owner to being a widow with three teenagers who ran a boarding house. They were luckier than LOTS of people – they had a homestead, the girls taught school, and they didn’t starve. While they were all devout churchgoers, this “husband will provide” stuff didn’t work in the 1920s, didn’t work in the 1950s when my great-aunt’s handsome cowboy husband wouldn’t pay the rent, and didn’t work in the 1980s when my aunt got divorced. It’s still risky now. My friend’s husband came out and divorced her a few years back. She’s had to reenter the workforce after 20 years outside it. It’s rough.
Anon
When my kids were in preschool, all the parents worked. That’s why the kids were there, more or less. I felt I was among my people.
But then when they hit public elementary school, things changed. I’m in expensive, progressive Berkeley and you’d think women would be supportive of everyone’s choice, but that’s on paper. There were tons of resentful, snarky SAHMs to deal with and I am so, so happy my kids are older and I never have to do that again!
By the way, my husband did all the PTA stuff because that was part of our division of labor, and they thought it was adorable that he was there, but it still wasn’t ok with them that I wasn’t.
Seventh Sister
That that sounds like my neighborhood. We’re so progressive and rich! So lucky and moral! It’s sooooooo cute when dads are involved but what kind of woman doesn’t want to run the fundraiser?
Anon
I have an aging minivan bought when we had 2 kids in diapers and 3 kids to regularly schlep and none could ride up front. Now, 1 kid is a grownup and all kids can ride up front. Middle kid will drive in a year. I’ve spent $$$ to replace/upgrade some items on the van b/c there are no real cars to purchase. In a year, though, I will want to get another car so that I can outsource at least some of the driving. Kid will inherit the van (as it has long since been paid off).
For me though . . . I’d get another van, but I don’t think I need two of them. I’d like AWD for when we go to the mountains and many roads are partially unpaved. Telluride? Something else? Needs to be a big hauler for when we all travel (would likely take the newer vehicle vs the aging van). I have some time and nothing local to even test drive. Does not need to be luxury, but could be a splurge car (only new car I ever had was the van and it has been great). I listed to car reviews when I walk the dog and even they all seem to be very meh or mixed on various vehicles. I get that a AWD Sienna might fit the bill but OMG it is really fugly (current ride is an Odyssey) and I don’t like how it doesn’t have a spare tire (have had two flats recently due to construction debris in the road, so feeling that that is important).
Anon
How people does it need to seat? I can’t tell if you have 5 kids or 2 or 3.
Anon
5 ideally (kids have friends); maybe 7 in a pinch, but at least 5 regularly. The new 7-seating configuration in the Sienna is not my favorite b/c it forces you to always use the 3rd row. When we camp, we need the back for gear more than seating. Or maybe I just need more roof rack / platform carrier? I used to want a convertible. I am so all over the place hoping that some car calls out to me and beckons.
Anon
I LOVE my Ford Explorer. Love it. My affection for it is irrational. It’s my first ever new car, and I’ve had it 3 years now and I still love it. TONS of space with the third row down and can seat 7 or 8 depending on the configuration. Roof rack. Optional trailer hitch can hold extra stuff on a platform for camping. Mine has an optional Eco mode that makes it easy on gas (though I think there’s a hybrid model now that wasn’t available when I bought). Intuitive controls. Just a huge fan.
Anonymous
Acura MDX. Don’t get a second van!
DeepSouth
I also love my Acura MDX. Two adult people can fit in the third row and there is still some room in the back. With the third row collapsed, there is a TON of cargo space, but it’s on a car frame, so you can parallel park and fit into parking garage spaces so much more easily than in other large SUVs.
Anon
Toyota or Honda/Acura, if you have an Odyssey now; don’t switch to something without longevity and reasonably good mileage. Test drive various SUVs from those two makers and see what you like.
Anonymous
We have a GMC Acadia and just rented a new Toyota Sienna, and I have to say that the Sienna was amazing. We are seriously thinking of getting a new one to replace the GMC.
Vicky Austin
I like my Toyota Rav4, but I don’t believe there are models with 3rd rows. Can’t quite tell if that’s a dealbreaker for you.
oils
A friend gave me some OSEA body oil as a thank you. What do I do with this? What is the best use of it, I guess? Don’t like feeling oily/greasy though….
Mouse
In my experience the good body oils work just like moisturizers – they sink into the skin and are not greasy. They’re great especially fresh out of the shower. Would use in place of lotion on the body.
Anon
Thanks!
Will try this.
You just reminded me that my Mom used to put on baby oil when she got out of the shower when I was a little girl.