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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Sweater blazers have been the real MVPs of remote work for the last year. They look professional on a videoconference but are just as comfortable as your coziest cardigan.
This blue heather color is perfect for spring. I would pair it with a navy sheath for the office or with a solid tee and some leggings for working from home.
The blazer is $109.99, marked down from $149, at Talbots. It’s available in misses sizes XS–XL, petite sizes P–XL, plus sizes X–3X, and plus petite sizes X–3X. It also comes in blush pink, fawn, and olive.
Psst: some of our other favorite sweater jackets include these favorites…
Some of our favorite sweater jackets for the office as of 2024 include M.M.LaFleur (the OG, the jardigan!), L'Agence, Summersalt, J.Crew, and Jenni Kayne. For budget options check J.Crew Factory and Quince.
Hunting for the best sweater jackets for plus sizes? Some of our favorites of 2024 include J.Crew Factory (up to 3X), J.Crew, Ralph Lauren, Nic & Zoe, and Lands' End. (I don't know this brand, but this boiled wool one looks nice too.)
Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – Extra 40% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – New sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – Extra 40% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – New sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Tiki Torches
I live in a townhome with neighbors on both sides. One of my neighbors had a party a few months ago and they stuck Tiki Torches next to the drive way to have an outdoor party. I went outside and mentioned to them that it didn’t seem like a good idea to have the torches so close to our (my) building. They said, “it’s not real fire” and I let it go. After some research I discovered, yes they are real fire. Yesterday they set up a sort of temporary patio in their back yard and placed 3 somewhat temporary (till they decay?) Tiki Torches in the back yard next to their temporary patio. One is a foot from my fence. I have now read the torches should be 6 feet from any building or structure. When it happened the first time I was told our HOA could do nothing and when I checked with the fire department they said they could do nothing. At the time I didn’t look into it any further. Does anyone know if the fire department person was wrong or what recourse I can take? I plan to talk to them about it first, but I’d like to know if there is any law or regulation backing me up.
Anon
Are they lighting them and leaving them burning while they go out shopping or something? As long as they’re not melting vinyl siding or something, I fail to see what the big deal is.
Signed,
Your redneck neighbor
Anonymous
Just because you ‘fail to see’ why following the safety instructions matters doesn’t mean they are any less valid. They wouldn’t have those instructions if they weren’t necessary for fire safety.
anonymous
I’ve used Tiki torches before and have placed them around my patio, which is away from the house. I would see if they could move it away from your fence. A few feet would be better. But if they are staying outside while the torches are lit that would make me less worried.
Anon
If you have vinyl siding, it will melt and smell and then burn and finding matching siding now for anything but a brand-new build is a PITA due to some sort of COVID / shipping / materials delays.
Anon
Never mind finding someone to do the work! We had a piece of metal roof rake blow off in a storm. It’s the piece that goes between the vinyl siding and the roof. There are now other parts of the roof (the metal drain piece… not really a gutter but a piece of metal w/ holes in it) falling off because the top piece is gone. It has been a month and I have called places daily and only just found someone who has agreed to fix it “in a few weeks.” I got his number off a business card on a bulletin board at a hardware store and he seems sketchy AF but at this point, I just need my freaking roof fixed. It has been so frustrating having something important damaged that I can’t DIY fix (it is really high up there) and having zero luck getting it fixed. I even offered one guy triple the going rate to just get it done and he didn’t even call me back.
No Problem
“It’s not real fire”?? They are literally lighting something on fire! Let them know that yes, it is real fire (they can stick their hand in it if they want to prove to you it’s not) and you would appreciate them not putting fire a foot away from your flammable fence, and remind them that they will definitely be at fault and have to pay for it to be replaced if it catches fire or gets scorch marks on it.
I think your HOA should send around a notice reminding people about fire risks and not to place tiki torches or fire pits less than the recommended 6 feet from a structure or fence.
Tiki Torches
Hi all, thanks for the replies so far. I should say the Tiki Torches are not only close to the fence but close to their/my home.
anon
Without photos, I’m not sure whether you are being overly fire cautious or they are being unsafe. I’ve found that different people have really really different ideas of fire safety – like, my own parents would never light a candle inside because of the “fire risk.” I’d say a 6 foot distance from a normal tikitorch is on the extreme end of things (even if that is the technical recommendation), but they also shouldn’t be a foot from a fence or meltable building.
Anon
Are there different types of tiki torches? I see them advertised on wooden decks all of the time. I wouldn’t think they would advertise them this way if they weren’t meant to be used in this way.
The fire department is supposed to enforce the fire code but if they are saying “there is nothing they can do” your issue either doesn’t violate the fire code or they don’t think it is important enough to care about it. I’d talk to the fire department more and ask more questions. If there is nothing they can legally do but they agree it is dangerous, than keep escalating. If they say it’s not really dangerous because XYZ then I’d let it go. You can also try talking to the town fire marshal.
How often do they use the tiki torches? Is it really worth killing any neighborly relationship you two have?
Anon
There are solar tiki torches that are actually not real fire, but made to look like fire. Could they be using these?
Blueberries
I live in (super dry) California, so I take fire safety especially seriously.
I think it’s worth talking with your neighbors to find out why they think it’s not a risk, and ask for their help in understanding their risk analysis. I’d be a lot happier working with a neighbor who came to me from a place of wanting to understand, and would be more likely to accommodate. FWIW, I care deeply about safety and maintaining good neighborly relations, though I hate being told directly what to do.
You might ask your homeowners’ insurance company for advice. They have an interest in your house not burning, and a lot of of experience with different kinds of risk.
Anonymous
I think you are overreacting, You called the fire department?? I use tiki torches that literally attach to my wooden deck. They are designed to do that. Unless they are lighting them and leaving them unattended you are at risk of being ‘that neighbor”.
Anonymous
There is a difference between attaching tiki torches to your deck railing so they stick up way above the wood, and putting the flame right next to a building or a wooden fence.
But calling the fire department seems kind of extreme unless the structure is actually on fire.
Tiki Torches
Hi again,
Answers to questions and comments:
I called the fire department last time to just get advice after I could not find anything online.
They do stay with them but are drinking and dogs and children are running near them. They just popped into the ground, not installed in anyway.
They will be using them a lot as they set them up yesterday with their new temporary backyard patio.
I will ask about solar tiki torches – but I do see flames.
Thank you Blueberries – good advice about how to approach them. And checking with my HOI.
Second Dose
For those who received a two-dose vaccine (Moderna or Pfizer), how did you handle the day after your second dose with regards to work? For example, did you reschedule meetings ahead of time or schedule a sick day in advance? Or did you simply wait to see how you felt and called in sick if needed?
I don’t want to rush to assumptions about side effects I may or may not experience, but almost everyone I know around my age (35) has felt too poorly to work the day after dose two. With this in mind, I’m wondering if it’s almost irresponsible *not* to reschedule my meetings that could easily be put off a couple of days.
Anon
I booked mine on a Friday so the next day was a weekend, but most of my colleagues are taking the day or two after off proactively. I think it’s a good idea.
Cat
The trend around here is for people to block their calendars and then if you feel OK, great, you have a day to catch up on “real work” instead of meetings, and if you don’t, you’re not scrambling to reschedule.
Everyone has been 100% understanding of any prospective rescheduling.
anne-on
This. I’ve proactively moved any meetings I could, asked for coverage on anything urgent that could not be moved, and then blocked my calendar for PTO the day after the shot with my entire team aware as to why. Everyone I work with has been totally understanding, and agree, the 2nd shot seems to be hitting everyone I know hard so they get it.
Anonymous
Same. DH just had his and blocked it for internal calls only that he could bump if he felt poorly. He did a few, bumped a few, and took two naps and went to bed at 7:30pm with chills. Felt fine the next days.
Denver
+1
Walnut
This is the approach in my office as well.
NY CPA
Agree with this. I scheduled my shots on Saturday mornings, but would have pre-emptively cleared my calendar if they had been weekdays. Important to note though: I ended up having all my (mildish) side effects on the day OF the shot and felt completely better by the following morning (so 24 hrs later). If you’re getting a shot in the morning, I would caution you to think not just about the following day but the day of.
anne-on
This is a good point. I got my first shot at 10am and started to feel ‘off’ by 1~ and was fully feverish with a pounding headache that night. I was over the worst of it by the next day but still not 100%, and was very surprised to have had the side effects hit that quickly.
Abby
I’m 29, got my second dose on Monday (Pfizer) and waited to see how I felt. I only had 3 meetings so I thought I’d be able to handle it even if I didn’t feel great. No side effects except my arm feeling sore – pretty comparable to my first dose!
Clementine
I gave a general heads up to my boss and staff, put it on my calendar as ‘second vaccine’ (so people could see that) and didn’t plan any ‘can’t miss meetings’ for the day after.
Anon
I’m 43 and had zero side effects. It was a normal work day and I didn’t plan any time off.
Anon
I’m 43 and got my second shot at 11 a.m., and by 3 I had such a bad headache I had to sign off for the day. Signed on at 7:30 the next morning, tried to work, couldn’t make it, signed off by 9:30 and slept the rest of that day. It felt like the first day of a bad cold. Following day I was completely back to normal other than some minor soreness in the arm where I got the shot. It hits different people differently but anecdotally, about 80% of the people I know who got both shots had a rough day-after. At work we are telling people to block their calendar the day after their shot with “Covid vaccine leave” and to plan on not being able to work that day. They can take the day off without it affecting their PTO.
Anon
I would block off the day and reschedule any meetings you have. I would let anyone I work closely with that I’m getting the vaccine on [day] and I want to be prepared to take time off in case I have a severe immune response.
Tara
Oh hmm I didn’t do anything special because I got my second dose on a Thursday and Friday’s are less meeting heavy anyways. I ended up having no side effects whatsoever
A
Scheduled one on Saturday, but I’m wfh and my workplace is very accommodating especially these days if we need to take time off. Then again, I don’t work in the US….
aBr
I would block off the day if possible with work, if not, work from home. My reaction was very much a nap, work a bit, take a call, nap, repeat. I did not officially take the day off but did proactively not schedule much for that day.
A Nonny Mouse
I didn’t schedule anything for the day after so I could call in sick (I needed to – 103 degree fever all day), and also had a light day for the next day with things that I could do on autopilot (which I needed – I was exhausted for close to a week).
anomanomanom
I planned a light day with the concern I might need it, and ended up being fine (in my late 30s). My boss got their second the same day and thought I was being silly and ended up having to rearrange the whole day on the fly when they ended up exhausted from the vaccine.
Anon
I had my second shot on a Saturday. On Sunday, I woke up feeling fine and then extreme fatigue and muscle soreness hit around 10am. However, I was soloparenting our 6 month old that day (husband was gone 7am-7pm for an important work event), so I just powered through. If you have to work – hydrate a ton (soup, tea, electrolytes) and get as much fresh air and movement as possible.
If I’d been working that day, I would have opened my window for the breeze, blasted music, and used my standing desk in standing mode all day.
Anonymous
The only meetings I have that day are with a client that I am very close to. I gave him a head’s up that I’m having my second shot the day before. I told him that unless it is unbearable, I will sit in on the meetings (2 one hour chunks) but might not be in a position to actively participate. On one of the meetings, their team is presenting data that I’ll need down the road. It’ll be valuable for me to hear it even if I’m not on my A-game. The other is less important, and I might play it a bit more by ear. There’s nothing I’ll have to disucss that can’t wait.
anon
I intentionally left my calendar open ahead of time. When a client requested a meeting for the day after my second dose, I simply said I was unavailable and scheduled the meeting for the next day. I pushed deadlines toward the end of the week. In some cases, like a good client asking for a routine task with a normally quick turn-around, I told them why. In some cases, I simply said I’d be able to do the work by X date. My coworkers did the same. It turned out that I was fine, so I had a regular office day.
emeralds
I’m getting mine today! I cleared my calendar for Thursday and let people know I might be out. If I can work, great. If not, I don’t have to worry about scrambling to reschedule meetings.
At the philosophical level, I also figured that the only way to guarantee I would feel horrible, would be to assume I could work as normal and have a packed calendar.
Anon
I rescheduled meetings the morning of my second day because it was clear I couldn’t work (I could barely get out of bed). I wish I had left the day clear in hindsight.
Anon
Reschedule. You will thank yourself!
C2
I’m 33 and had my 2nd dose of Pfizer last Friday. I’d reschedule everything you can. This is an opportunity where no one will question it and if you end up with a bonus day to catch up on work and not be in meetings, great! If you need it, you have it ready. My experience: No symptoms the rest of the day on Friday, I spent all Saturday on the couch and would have been unable to do any substantive or effective work the second day if it had been a work day. Woke up with a mild headache and muscle soreness, which both progressed, coupled with joint pain. In the evening I randomly spiked a pretty high fever out of nowhere, which came down with Tylenol, lingered overnight at a low grade and was gone by Sunday AM. Sunday was OK, though I was tired. I finally feel like a mild brain fog has fully lifted today. I did all the things people say to do – hydrated really well before and after, had some gatorade and electrolytes on hand, iced my arm, took tylenol as needed on Saturday. Good luck!
Clarissa
I made sure my second dose was on a Friday afternoon. I am glad I did because I was extremely fatigued for the following two days.
Anonymous
I’m hoping this is a fun question! What things in American high school tv shows did you experience? I live in Scotland & find teens driving, playing competitive sports, school newspapers, school committees, large schools, dating & school dances all so different from how we grew up!
Cat
ha – well, no one is as good looking as anyone in those shows considering they typically cast 20-somethings to play 16-year-olds.
And this will vary wildly by geography!
As a late 90’s teen on the east coast, yes, driving and dances were big. The school paper was a joke unfortunately.
I didn’t grow up in an area where high school sports were a big “scene” (like, some kids went to the football or basketball games but it wasn’t The Thing Everyone Does) but lived in Texas briefly and was astounded at how many people cared so much about high school football so… that part seems partially true?
Cat
On the driving part- Americans generally drive a lot further routinely, I think, so of course it was exciting to get your license. Like my high school was a 15-minute drive from my house, my after-school job was a 15-minute drive the opposite direction, etc. So it’s almost as exciting for parents to have a teen that can drive themselves around as it is for the teen to be able to drive!
Kids usually received a new-to-them used car or parents planned to hand down the old family vehicle, so it wasn’t uncommon for minivans or station wagons to be in the student lot. A few kids get the whole “16th birthday here’s a fancy car” thing but that was maybe… 3 or 4 out of a class of 300.
Anon
Also re driving, you tend to get those massive high schools where they are county-wide or for big geographical areas, so too far for kids to walk and there tends to only be busses if you don’t do any activities (just go to school and straight home), which isn’t likely. Getting a teen to the driving point will be like hitting the lottery for some parents, particularly if both work or if there are siblings. It is hard to carpool if kids come from all directions and one does band and one is in a play and one plays a sport.
anon
the commute is not an American thing per se. Most of my friends in German high school sat on a bus or biked for 30 minutes to get to school. We lived in a suburb of a big city.
C2
Yes, this – I drove 25 miles to high school and was in just about every extra curricular. Before I could drive my parents would drive me 7 miles to town to take the “early bus” and would often pick me up in the same town from the “late bus”. Riding a bike to that town would not have been a realistic option, or a safe one. After getting my license, I drove every single day.
Anon
I mean, it is fiction, so I feel like I had all of that (not in those doses), but not everyone was hot and we generally had the use of parental cars vs our own personal automobiles. My parents in the rural US had all that, minus competitive sports and large schools. In fact, the high school seniors drove the school busses and took them home at night. My mom was the editor of the school paper and the yearbook, and she typed all of that.
Cb
I grew up in the US and live in Scotland now so have both perspectives although I know toddlers + college students and not much in between. School yearbook, license at 16, a giant school (graduating class of 500), after school jobs. But I think somethings have become more Americanized, my English husband was very confused by the “prom” at our local secondary school, while it was totally normal for me.
anne-on
I’m an ‘old’ millenial (on the cusp for GenX) and grew up in the northeast. Sweet 16’s/Quinces were a BIG deal, and I had to have been to at least 20-30 (if not more) of them over my sophomore/junior years. They ranged from casual things in VfW halls to much fancier catering halls but nowhere near as crazy as the ones seen on ‘my super sweet 16’. Still, when telling other people about that they seem very surprised that they existed – apparently outside of NJ/NJ/CT they aren’t as popular?
Driving lessons/teens driving around 16 or so was common. My very large public high school had a school newspaper, lots of clubs/committees, large plays/musicals, sporting events – those are all pretty common in the US. My graduating class was BIG (~900) so cliques were smaller because there were just so many of us, and there wasn’t really as much of a culture of ‘everyone goes to the Friday night sporting event’.
Anon
Also from NEUS and the weather is generally awful, so no way was I sitting at an outdoor event. Playing outdoor sports in late fall / winter / early spring was a challenge, so sitting and freezing was not something I’d do. Plus, I had babysitting gigs. In a place with better weather, maybe I’d have gone as a social event (how I did college football) but not really to pay attention to the game.
buffybot
I went to HS in a semi-rural area so cars were absolutely critical to basic life. I inherited my mom’s minivan and also was the first of my friends to drive, so spent a lot of time driving around an unruly pack of teens to concerts, the (cold, foggy) beach and the mall. The mall! How I miss it. Now it’s just sad.
My school had a large band program and while we weren’t a serious marching band (the focus was on the music), we did march in the local parade and could volunteer to play pep band music at football games. For Spirit Week each class would take a staircase and decorate it elaborately in a pre-determined theme, and you’d dress up each day in accordance with the requirements. I mean, in theory – my class was severely lacking in school spirit and we lost every year, even when we were seniors. There were definitely house parties – not quite so loud and out of control like Can’t Hardly Wait, and I don’t think I ever saw anyone dancing? But parents would go away for the weekend and someone’s older cousin would buy beer, etc. Let’s not get it twisted – I was absolutely a nerd, not one of the “popular kids”, spent most of my time at debate tournaments – but it still looks in retrospect a lot like the stereotypical and ideal teen experience.
Anon
I went to a private girls’ school, so quite different from most typical high school tv shows/movies, but it wasn’t exactly Gossip Girl either. There was wealth, girls who had their own luxury cars, competitive sports, school clubs, etc. But most of my classmates were pretty normal if not fairly geeky/dorky because the school had very high academic standards.
Anon
I think I went to the same school haha
Lyssa
Interesting question! I went to HS in the mid-90s, in the mid-south. Driving was definitely big (in fact, I’d say kids in school drive a lot less then we did – most people had a license and probably more than half had at least a beater car). Driving around aimlessly with my best friend at about 17-18 was a big pass time (we called it the “let’s get lost game.” Probably a terrible idea in the pre-cell phone days!)
Sports were really big for people who were into sports, but there was definitely a strong contingent of people who weren’t. I was in band and theater, and had a grocery store job – I was extremely heavily scheduled. I was involved in school newspaper attempts a few times, but they never seemed to get off the ground – certainly not the hard-hitting mini-reporters you see in some teen dramas. Dances were big in middle school, but very few people were interested the few times they came up in HS, except for prom, which was a pretty big deal (though far less glamorous then you see on TV.)
Dating is always interesting – at least at my school, people were in relationships, but there was virtually no “dating around” concept at all. You were either in a relationship or not, and they were often thought of as pretty serious. Very different from what you see on TV.
Lyssa
Oh, and clothing – like everyone my age, I watched Saved by the Bell religiously in my tweens, and at some point, really thought that girls would wear Kelly Kapowski-style mini skirts and mid-drift tops to high school on the regular. No, that sort of thing was against every rule. Almost everyone just wore jeans and baggy graphic tees.
Anonymous
Almost none of that because I went to a tiny rural public high school and we could barely field sports teams, let alone academic clubs. The entire school went to prom so we could fill a ballroom. I did spend a lot of time driving my friends around and to and from school though – we had some good times blasting music on country roads! The dating scene was a total joke sadly.
anon
Agree that the TV shows are more idealized/beautiful people and exaggerated. But there are huge regional differences based on urban vs. rural, small town vs bigger, suburban vs. city, and whether you come from a well funded/rich area vs poor. Most on this board come from relatively rich areas, although almost everyone calls themselves middle class.
Freaks and Geeks (TV series) was more true to how my era/region grew up, for a high school example.
My high school was large and in a very well funded somewhat diverse (rich poor/conservative and liberal/racially) and progressive suburb adjacent to a large America city. We had free driver’s ed classes at school (but almost no one except the rich kids got their own cars in high school… I’m shocked how common that is now). We had large and very competitive sports programs in everything what you could think of from Football to swimming (multiple pools) to badminton to golf. We had multiple orchestras/bands/jazz bands/multiple choruses/theater and musical theater programs/good newspaper and yearbook and tons of academic and other clubs.
The partying happened. Proms happened. Lots of cliques…. jocks/pretty people/nerds/artsy types/”stoners” etc…
But less than 5 miles away, in the Big city, in a poor urban (ie. minority) underfunded school district the high school had no driver’s ed, no theater program, no orchestras, a few sports teams, and poor quality infrastructures and not the best teachers.
The way our country pays for education is SHAMEFUL and unconstitutional and it disturbs me to no end that even the left leaning progessives run away from this issue. Local property taxes fund most schools, so if you live in a rich area with expensive houses that are taxed more, your schools are generally better. If you live in a poor area, your schools are much worse. The state/federal funds help subsidize poor schools, but it is never enough. The best teachers tend to go to the better funded/wealthy communities where they are paid more and have good pension systems. The poor communities, that need the best teachers more, have a hard time getting and retaining them. It is also more challenging to teach in communities that have lots of social/economic issues that interfere with a child being able to feel safe, well fed, so they can thrive. We like to send inexperienced young college graduates to go teach in those areas for a year or two though, before they mostly burn out and leave.
Mal
Amen to that last paragraph! It enrages me to no end –
My high school was a was urban, mid-size (1,200ish), Texas high school, and I saw firsthand the disparities location brought. Our school was unique in that the majority were minorities (Hispanic, Black mostly) but the school was right next to a wealthier neighborhood, where most white kids went to private school (me being one of the exceptions). We always joked that if a white kid arrived mid-semester they had gotten kicked out of another school (usually true). Not that many people had access to cars because most were low-income.
We had a lot of the hallmarks of American high schools, just less intense (less competition when the school is smaller) and not usually well-funded. The best programs (band, theater) had a teacher/sponsor that was passionate about keeping it successful, or otherwise it wouldn’t exist. They usually had nonexistent budgets so had to fundraise on top of managing the program.
This was Texas, so football games were Friday night social events – but we were never very good so it wasn’t a huge deal competition-wise. But as anyone from the south knows, Homecoming is always HUGE, and many folks from other areas find our Homecoming traditions foreign (mums, etc.).
Anonymous
I graduated in the early 90s in the mid-Atlantic. All of those things were present, plus big parties when parents were away, keggers in the woods for the more rural schools in my county, student government, big dances, cliques, etc. All of it. As noted, of course not everyone was so good looking and we did not have the wealth portrayed in those shows (though I did socialize with kids from DC prep schools and public schools in very wealthy counties around DC and some of them.had a lot and some had that absentee-wealthy-parents lifestyle that is sometimes portrayed.
Not that Anne, the other Anne.
I went to a semi-rural HS in Texas and had about 450 in my graduating class.
Friday Night Lights is not an inaccurate assessment of how important football was, even when the team was bad. Pep rallies were a required-attendance event and everyone went to the home games, although not everyone paid attention to what was happening on the field. I mostly went because everyone went and because I had lots of friends in the band (which at my school was much much better than the football team).
We had a school newspaper, I was part of a few clubs, I got a letter jacket, I went to prom/Band Banquet/Military Ball, and I took driver’s ed at age 15 from a football coach.
My senior class voted a motto, color, and song, all of which were overruled by the administration because we had a somewhat large percentage of smart, sarcastic people and the “popular voting” might have had some assistance to choose certain options.
pugsnbourbon
Fun question! I went to a small, somewhat rural school in the Midwest (120 in my grad class). Sports were important but all our teams were terrible except for our quiz team and track. Our school newspaper was … not good (and I say that as co-editor) but our yearbook was killer. Homecomings and prom were a BIG deal. Due to our small size AP classes were limited and yes, our football coach taught AP American history.
You might not see this on TV, but we had something called “tractor day” where kids whose families had farms drove their tractors to school. Some kids rode their 4-wheelers in too. This inevitably snarled the one main road into town, but it was fun.
Anon
Fun! In SD you can drive at 14 and take 4-wheelers on streets. And where I grew up, first day of hunting season is an unwritten day off.
pugsnbourbon
Ohhh completely forgot about hunting season! It wasn’t a day off per se but a handful of kids skipped.
The next county over gave their students a full week off in the fall for the county fair.
Walnut
We had an all school assembly after Columbine where everyone was asked to remove the guns out of the back window of their trucks.
Seventh Sister
We had a rule that you couldn’t park your truck in the school lot if you had a gun in the gun rack. And people would have to be reminded about this during deer season!
Anonia
School calendars across the state were set to start after the State Fair, so everyone could make it back from competition in time.
JD
My family was from out of state and shocked by letting SD kids get a license at 14. My parents let me take the in school drivers ed class, but made me get a permit the first year. They weren’t going to let me take the test but caved when I cried since literally every other kid was getting a license.
My mom claims to have seen one of our farm neighbors let their 9 year old drive the family truck down the lane while the dad was loading it.
Was not in the FFA
We had Drive Your Tractor to School Day too! I think it was a whole week of FFA (Future Farmers of America) themed days, actually. I did not live on a farm so I didn’t have access to a tractor, but I did get my permit and license as quickly as possible, as did my older brother. We lived in one corner of a big county, and my high school was in the other diagonal corner, so if you rode the bus you had to get up about an hour earlier and couldn’t stay after school for anything. Access to a car via an older sibling, friends sibling, or yourself was key, especially for us since both my parents worked one county over in the ‘big city’ and weren’t available to shuttle us around except in emergencies. For the last two years of high school, I drove a beater old Camaro. Aww yeah.
As someone who grew up in the Midwest, the way shows set in Southern California had lockers outside in between school buildings blew my mind.
Our football team sucked but a lot of people did go to the games as a social event. And basketball was big in the winter. Most people went to prom and a winter dance – we had it in our school auditorium, rather than in a hotel ballroom like apparently is more common now.
C2
Ha, I was president of my school’s FFA chapter, a 4-H state ambassador, and yes, we had “drive your tractor to school day”. Shockingly, my knowledge of forage production has recently come in handy in my current job.
Anonia
Yes to all of this, and I’d forgotten about Tractor Day! Nobody looked like they do on tv, from the glamorous make up to the outfits that would have gotten us escorted out of the school and parents called if we had tried that. My high school just got named one of the best in the state, and I’m amused/appalled because it hasn’t changed much since I graduated, and I didn’t think it was academically great or diverse back then. Makes me wonder what the competition looks like.
Walnut
Hicktown by Jason Aldean is a very accurate representation of my home town/high school experience in rural flyover country.
Anonymous
OP here, thanks for the comments so far! In Scotland you can’t start taking driving lessons till you are 17 but you can get married at 16 and drink at 18! You can also leave school at 16 as we don’t have anything like a high school diploma. I went to university having just turned 17 in the February. The other thing that always stands out to me in American shows is the amount of group work and school projects. It was very geared here to passing indivisible subject exams at the end of the year with no coursework during the year counting to your grade.
Anonymous
This is a really fascinating thread. I grew up in Singapore, so much closer to the British school system (A Levels/ today’s GCSEs), and absolutely hated the year-end all-or-nothing exams.
You can legally drink at 18. Lots of nights out in that final year of high school that I skipped because I didn’t turn 18 till the very end of the school year. (I regret nothing. Sneaking out of the house to go to midnight movies or on long bike rides with friends was more my speed.)
I went from there to college in the US, chosen specifically for a much less heavy emphasis on year-end assessments and more on year-round performance (okay, and also good financial aid for international students). I live in the NEUS now and always joke that I’m getting my first experience of a US K-12 school system alongside my kids.
Anon
I grew up on the west coast and I’m mid 50s so
1) I hung out at the mall a lot, then got a job there
2) I had a car and not only drove it, I’d take my friends for drive-thru at lunch
3) there were often fights planned between rival groups on campus, we all knew about it, and we all planned where we would stand to watch the fights
4) I was in marching band and our band entered and won competitions
5) I was in one of the last west coast towns that still had a Friday and Saturday night cruise up and down our main boulevard (a la American Graffiti). I did that in a friend’s car as a passenger before I got my license, and in my own car once I got my license 2nd half of my Junior year
Anonymous
I had forgotten all about the scheduled spectacle fights, but yeah, we had that sometimes.
Anon
I went to a small all-girls prep school in the NE, so I would guess my experience was pretty different to the norm. That being said, I drove myself to school senior year (I got my drivers permit junior year, but didn’t get my license, which you need to drive unsupervised, until senior year). I went to school dances both at my school and at local boys’ schools. I worked on the yearbook. I also was the head of another school magazine. I sang in the choir. I was team manager for one of the sports teams.
My guess about why so many people, especially those who post on this board, played competitive sports, worked on publications, sat on student councils, etc. is because it is ultra-competitive to get into top universities in the US. To be competitive, you’re expected to be “well rounded” so you can’t just be a straight A student, but you must also exceed at sports AND be the editor-in-chief of the newspaper AND be president of student council, etc. I went to an Ivy League university and most students were like that, or were truly savants at something if they weren’t well rounded.
Anonymous
I am curious. Is there not dating among teens where you are? I had a date or two pretty much every weekend from 9th grade and boyfriends in the 8th. Dates were everything from going to a movie or football game to going to a party together to watching TV on the couch, plus there were dances at my school and other schools, cotillions, etc. Always something.
Anonymous
When I was in high school it wasn’t common for people to ‘date’ and actually go out at all, people had what they’d call a boyfriend but really it was someone you’d kiss and that was it.
Anonia
In my school, there were two tracks of kids; the ones going to college and the ones who were going to work or work training. The work training group dated more, the college track rarely ever dated. Two/three pregnancies a year maybe, and I only remember two ‘serious’ couples. Hollywood would have you think people were making out in the hallways, but I only ever saw the occasional hand holding, which was considered scandalous! Apparently we were uptight…
Anon
I was totally that girl with the long term boyfriend and we made out in the hallways. Makes me cringe now.
Anonymous
Scandinavian here, and no, not US style dating.
Sure, some people had girl- or boyfriends, but the idea of going on a date is wholly alien. Dates are more common now, with Tinder. You’d cop off at a party (with (sneaky) alcohol from about 15 y), or a community disco (yup) or youth hall or soccer tournament, but no dating, no.
Seventh Sister
Dating, driving, school dances, football players & cheerleaders were the popular kids, drama club. Some of it was fun, some of it was downright awful. As a bookish kid with a competitive streak, I think I probably would have enjoyed being a teenager in a place like the UK or Europe more than I liked being an American teenager.
Seventh Sister
Before I got a driver’s license, I had to take a big yellow bus about an hour each way to school (the distance was short but the route was very long). My kids are growing up in a big city and to them, the most exciting thing about field trips when they were small was getting to take the big yellow bus because they usually walk or bike to school. I thought this was hilarious. It’s not that fun getting bounced around for two hours a day.
While our football team was terrible and lacrosse was our prestige sport, I did think that “Friday Night Lights” was a really authentic (if fictional) portrayal of life in a small town. There were only a handful of kids who wanted to go away to college, and there were plenty of adults ready to tell you that you were snotty or full of yourself if you didn’t just want to go to the local junior college.
Anon
I went to 3 high schools in 3 states (west, south, northeast), big (3000 HS students) and small (240 HS students), and public/private so might have a unique perspective. In all my high schools, driving was normal. I actually did not learn how to drive until after HS, because my parents never bothered to teach me, but I remember reveling in the freedom of being out and about with friends. In the rich private schools, it was normal for kids to get a car as a 16th birthday present. In the big public schools, ‘cliques’ were more of a thing and there were band kids/student council kids/theater kids/sports kids. In all of the schools, there was dating and ‘official’ couples. School dances were a thing at all the schools but WAY more of a thing at the rich private schools (limousine, themed dances, fancy dresses, hair and makeup). Competitive sports was a thing at all the schools, largely for college-entry reasons, it seemed, but the sports were different – lacrosse, rowing at the private school, football and basketball at the public school . I don’t remember the school paper being a thing at any of them.
Ellen
Elizabeth, I LOVE this blazer! I can wear it from home on ZOOM calls, but also in the office and eventually in court, where things are getting alot more informal. The judge is already back in Chambers, and he has invited me down to lunch, since he is fully vaccinated and I have my first shot.
I can’t wait to see him and wish him well. He was going to retire, but changed his mind once it became clear that COVID will be over soon. The manageing partner is still going to retire in 2022, so I have to be prepared in case the other partners want to choose someone other then me. But I am pretty sure I have the job locked in. I just have to learn how to be firm when dealing with the other partners since I am the biggest biller for 4 years running now. YAY!!!
Anon
If you could buy a handbag in the $1k-$2k range, what would you buy? Needs to be able to fit my work laptop, think about 14″
Similar question and price range for everyday earrinfs that aren’t studs
Veronica Mars
LV Neverfull MM or GM, check measurements. I’m not going to entertain the hater comments, it’s a super practical bag. For the earrings, definitely some diamond huggies.
Anon
I’d get the biggest Neverfull as the medium ones look sad if overstuffed. IMO the dark checkerboard one is the most classic unless you live somewhere very tropical where the lighter checkerboard would be better (IMO). I’d spring for a monogram and the stripes, b/c I like those options.
A
Bottega Veneta for sure. I’d get the large Veneta. Nothing will ever compare to it once you have this bag.
AIMS
I think that would be above the budget but agree they make beautiful bags.
For an everyday non-stud earning in that price range I’d get the Cartier trinity earrings. Classic and literally goes with everything.
A
Earrings…I’d get south sea pearls. The largest I could afford.
C
+1 on the pearls though I like tahitians (I wear a LOT of grey). The online pearl stores usually have mother’s day sales as well. I also have gold huggies that have gotten a lot of use.
SSJD
Pave diamond hoops for the earrings.
I have a Neverfull and do love it. It’s incredibly durable and classic.
anne-on
I’d get the Lo & Sons Seville, a Tumi backpack (less pretty, better for your back), or a large Dagne Dover Allyn Leather tote, and put the rest of the $$ towards the earrings ;)
For the earrings, maybe something from the classic Elsa Peretti line (wave, teardrop, mesh) from Tiffany’s, or the hardwear pieces. They’re a little over your price range but the Juste un Clou earrings by Cartier are also very cool.
Anon
Tiffany is so vastly over priced for what it is (sterling silver), so I’d skip that and go for real white/yellow gold huggies.
OP
So helpful, Thank you! What about the ysl shopping tote or a celine bag?
anne-on
The Celine Sangle is lovely, and very practical. The Hermes Evelyne (largest size, the TGM?) might also work well – I use the medium size it as my day to day bag and I can fit a LOT in there.
emeralds
I learned right here in this very comment section that Celine makes my dream bag, but they are wayyy above that price point. You could probably squeak in a secondhand Celine for $2,000, if you’re open to that.
Anon
OMFG — I had no idea how pricey Celine bags are. I do not understand the Teen bag pricing at all. Are they made from unicorn hide? [And yet the shock has long since worn off that LV bags are coated canvas.] I’m still at the life stage where I can’t have nice things, but I do look and see what’s out there.
anne-on
The old Dagne Dover Charlie tote is a very close dupe for the Celine Sangle (which is my guess as to why it was quietly discontinued). I bet you can find some on Poshmark if that’s the bag you were talking about?
Anon
I have the YSL shopping tote and have used it every day for almost 3 years. Love it!
Anon
LV Neverfull.
all about eevee
I love my Chloe Daria
AZCPA
Chloe Marcie. I used the medium since my laptop is a little smaller (i work from home now), but the large should be perfect for a bigger laptop. I was very pleased with the durability.
Anonymoose
Massive long shot – but does anyone here for a recommendation for a photographer in the Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg area? My whole family is finally vaccinated and we are getting together for a family vacation this summer. It’s the first time we will all be together since the pandemic started. My sisters and I want to get family photos taken as a present for my mom. Any and all recs appreciated?
Anonymous
Not sure if they travel (it’s about an hour away), but Southern Charm Portraits in Knoxville is really good. They might have a rec for that area if they don’t.
Anon
I put my leggings du jour on backwards today. Lord help me for returning to the office.
AnonATL
I cannot tell you how many times I put my underwear on inside out in the past year.. which had basically never happened prior.
Anon
OMG I am so glad I am not the only one.
PolyD
On Monday I put on a pair of yoga pants backwards and didn’t notice for several hours. And I made a few trips to the laundry room in my backwards pants.
anon
I’m looking for a good knockoff of the Athleta Cabo Linen shorts. I have several pairs and love them, but thanks to the sloth winter of 2020-21, I can’t fit into them. Since weight loss is my goal, I don’t want to spend good money on Athleta and am looking for something similar for less (knowing they won’t be as nice … sigh).
Anonymous
For goodness sake just buy the Athleta shorts you live in your current size.
Anonymous
+1. My life became a whole lot better when I started buying clothes that fit me again.
Anon
Don’t punish yourself, get the ones you like. All that happens when you buy the lesser dupe is you don’t feel good and then you feel bad about yourself. Shorts are seasonal anyway, so you buy a bigger pair this year. Life goes on.
Anon
THIS.
pugsnbourbon
Old Navy has similar ones on sale for as low as $10.
Anon
And check out Gap — the Gap-BR-Athleta-ON family should have similar versions at different price points for you (even BR is doing athleisure).
Monday
Get a second-hand pair of the real thing online? Most common Athleta items are available IME.
Curious
This is what I do!
buffybot
J Crew Factory has some cute drawstring linen shorts that were around $20-$30. They were pretty enormous so I had to size down (which is rare in shorts, at least for me).
Ifiknew
What kind of tops go with these shorts? Please recommend
anon.
There’s nothing similar. I’ve tried them all :)
Just buy them, you know you won’t regret it.
anon
Haha, I appreciate the honesty.
Anonymous
Old navy has shorts like this.
Anonymous
If you go on a diet starting right now maybe in a month you won’t have to buy new ones. Just do it. You won’t regret it a month from now.
Nudibranch
Look for them on Poshmark.
Anonymous
While we are talking shorts, favorites in 14-16? My primary issue is the leg of the short rubbing between my thighs and riding up into my crotch.
Anon
RIght now, nothing. Anything with legs long enough to not ride up looks 100% awful-bad on me to the point where I am wearing skorts / leggings (but leggings are icky if too hot/humid and skorts just add layers of fabric even though to me they read cuter than bermuda shorts).
No Problem
As someone whose shorts do this as well, I find the riding up to be more of an issue with shorter inseams. Go for at least 6-8″ (or longer if you can find them and depending on your height) and you should have less of a problem with them riding up. You basically want something that extends further down your leg than where your thighs touch. YMMV, but my mom is around your size and has found decent shorts at both Walmart and Target in recent years. Talbots I think also has lots of shorts in various lengths.
Anon
I like Old Navy shorts because even if the description of the short says a 3″ inseam or whatever, they increase the inseam for bigger sizes probably precisely because of this issue. I’m around the same size and I find a 5″ inseam means my thicc thighs won’t swallow them up.
Mal
Same! 5in inseam on me (same size) works best to keep things where they need to be.
Anonymous
My biggest wins for shorts the last few years have been from Ann Taylor. They are longer and made from materials softer than a regular twill. I also had some luck at Target, actually, for twill shorts.
anon
Target’s twill shorts are pretty decent and always available in good seasonal colors. But if you’re between sizes, do size up.
Anon
I used to have very good luck with target twill shorts as well when I was around the OP’s size. Look for mid-thigh length.
Ribena
Boden Chino shorts with the 6 inch inseam.
Anon
I had good luck with the Riviera shorts from Loft (size 12-14). They have both 4- and 6- inch inseams (on my super short legs the 4-inch works well). Lots of cute colors and look equally well casually or if I have to stand up on camera, they pass for work-appropriate pants.
Anon
Team thick thighs here. I’ve given up on fitted/chino type shorts as the waist/thighs never work. Luckily, linen shorts with an elastic waistband seem to be a better fit for my body and I’ve embraced that style & tossed the more fitted ones.
Anonymous
For those who know Fla well — where would you recommend going? I’ve been to West Palm/Palm Beach Island and really liked those but now am looking for different but similar spots in Fla. So I tend to like smaller cities by the water with a good choice of large, newer luxury type hotels (which actually is a struggle in West Palm) where you can walk to the beach or drive within 10 or so min. But I also need places that have a “town” — the typical Florida shopping/restaurant district with palm trees where you can walk around or sit with a coffee. I actually don’t need a lot of things to do; I mean I don’t want to sit in a hotel watching TV but some cool shops to look at; a Starbucks; pretty architecture and palm trees and I’m happy. I’m more interested in the Atlantic side than the Gulf side though could be convinced.
This trip actually isn’t for now but more likely late fall/winter when the weather cools again (assuming covid is ok at that time and it feels safe to travel). Bonus points if it’s an area that took covid somewhat seriously. I know masking will be out the window in 6+ months but a type of place where people DID put on masks when there was a need rather than not still feels safer.
Anonymous
My info is out of date since I went there before the pandemic, but I liked Naples when I visited it for a business trip and tacked on another day or so to hang out. There was at least one street I visited that had a “downtown” vibe with restaurants and boutiques browse.
LaurenB
You’re thinking of Fifth Avenue South in Naples – there is another street called Third Street South (which is at Third Street and Thirteen Avenue South — the streets are the north/south and the avenues are the east/west). All of the stores in these areas require masks for entry, most have sanitizing sprays or gels at the entrance, and people generally comply. There’s enough social distancing that you can eat outside in restaurants and be OK.
Anonymous
Yes, I think it was Fifth Avenue. I was only there for a few days and I spent more of my free time exploring the botanical garden and Six Mile Cypress Slough to look at alligators…
I also went to Tampa for another business trip that same year and Tampa definitely had more cultural things but on the other hand, more of the city vibe and less “hang out by a beach and relax” vibe.
Cat
You want to go to Naples. Stay at the Inn on Fifth downtown (walk to dining and the beach) or the Ritz. The weather in late fall-winter is soooo much better than the east coast – much less wind.
We spent two months there this year and found Covid cautious behavior in the coastal areas.
AIMS
Counterpoint – I know lots of people love it and the beaches are truly lovely but I’ve always found Naples to be kind of meh. Food is fine, and you can find stuff to do, and the nature is great but it’s also very “red” and conservative and just sort of square, for lack of a better word, which is fine but it definitely felt like it shaped the culture in a way that wasn’t for me at least. Everything closed early, etc., and outside of the old downtown area it’s also not very walkable.
I would recommend Key West. It’s got pretty much everything OP asks for and it really feels like you went somewhere on vacation, if that makes sense.
Cat
Fair point on the somewhat quiet culture (I mean it is chock full of wealthy retirees…), although we turn in early ourselves so perhaps didn’t notice that as much as others might.
Key West would definitely check the “walkable” box though once was enough for us; we prefer places where we can take super long beach walks vs. a more boating culture. And I’m not sure I would suggest it as a comparable to Palm Beach ;)
AIMS
Naples is def. more akin to Palm Beach than Key West is akin to Palm Beach! But I didn’t read that as a requirement, more a comment that OP liked it and wanted to have some nice hotel options. Captiva can be a good compromise? Although also on the Gulf side like Naples.
I’d also throw in a vote for Delray Beach if it’s not too close to West Palm. This was a few years ago but we stayed at Crane’s Beach House and had a great time.
NYCer
+1. Go for Naples!
Anon
I third Naples. It’s beautiful, on the beach, lots of shops and dining in the cute downtown. But it is conservative and red, but that doesn’t really matter so much if you’re just there for a vacation.
LaurenB
I’m in Naples now. I have not seen a single MAGA hat during my time here. I do occasionally see a Trump bumper sticker but I saw those up north as well. I have seen one house flying a Trump flag but there are always idiots everywhere. It is not the red hellhole I thought it would be.
Cat
We were a little north of the Ritz (Vanderbilt Beach area) and there was one lonely boat that was still flying the MAGA colors. We saw it several times. If they were hoping for reactions from beachgoers they totally failed.
Anon
I’m also curious why you would want to go to a place that did wear masks at a time when masks aren’t necessary anymore? I mean why does it matter if we’re talking about the future when the pandemic is mostly over? Unless by that you mean you want to go somewhere more liberal/democrat, which is totally understandable.
Anon
Not OP but: (1) I disagree that the pandemic is almost over. (2) I could be wrong but I would expect higher vaccination rates in places where people took mask wearing seriously.
Anonymous
This. I’m taking masking as a proxy for vaccination. If I’m going this year, we don’t know for sure how things will look say in Oct or Dec; if I’m someplace for 2 weeks and suddenly news circulates of some nasty variant, until I can get out of there I want to be in a place where people say ok time to break out the masks again, not oh it’s nothing ignore it.
Anonymous
This plus I don’t want to spend my money at businesses that never did a damn thing to help the pandemic. If there are towns that pretty universally did not wear masks or where there are businesses that hung up “no masks allowed” signs (like in certain parts of my own state), I’ll spend my money elsewhere.
LaurenB
Of course I would prefer a place where people always took the pandemic seriously vs one where they didn’t. It means the people are smarter.
Anon
+1
Anon
Yeah, I would use that as a proxy too. Even though I’m vaccinated there’s some chance I could catch COVID, though hopefully not as serious of a case, and I wouldn’t even want a mild case while on vacation. Places that took masking seriously still have overall lower case counts than places that didn’t, so that would inform my decision. I agree with another poster that I also don’t want to give my money to “no masks allowed” kind of a-holes.
Anonymous
Sarasota might fit the bill – more cultural attractions than Naples.
LadyB
St. Pete is a great option. Stay downtown where there is a beautiful waterfront with tons of boutiques and top notch restaurants and uber (15 mins) to the beach.
anon
Sarasota would probably work. I’ve heard good things about the Ritz Carlton there.
anonchicago
I stayed at the Ritz Sarasota last year with my mom. Sarasota is basically a cheaper, quieter Naples – okay restaurants that shut down at 9, nice beaches, lots of retirees.
That Ritz was nice but didn’t blow me away; I’ve stayed in much nicer hotels in my life. Part of the reason we stayed there is because it required fewer points than a typical Ritz ;), probably because it’s relatively old.
anon
I’ve had two separate co-workers rave about St. Augustine recently (like, the past couple of years, not since the pandemic started). There seem to be a few luxury hotels/resorts, and my co-workers talked about boutiques and restaurants and chocolate tours and wine bars.
Anon
I used to attend regular meetings in Boca Raton and chose Delray Beach as the place I stayed. I don’t know about luxury but the older Marriott has been remodeled and is across the street from a nice beach, and the downtown area is really walkable and cute.
Salary Survey
FYI, Ask A Manager is doing a salary survey and you can see the results in a spreadsheet. Interesting stuff.
https://www.askamanager.org/2021/04/how-much-money-do-you-make-4.html
Anon
I saw that yesterday and agree that it is amazing.
Sad anon for this
My boyfriend of 2 years broke up with me last night. I had been having doubts about the relationship too (longer than he had, tbh) but he was my best friend and a great guy. It was honestly a shock that it came from him, and it’s hitting me harder than I expected. I know it was for the best but it’s been a tough night/morning. I’m 26 so I know I have plenty of time to meet someone else but I’m dreading dating again, and there was such comfort in having somebody always in my corner, especially over the past year. I’m scared of having to face the world alone again. No questions here, just needed to yell into the void.
SSJD
I’m sorry. That is so hard and painful. Give yourself permission to grieve and mourn this loss. But also know that you are going to be okay; after healing you will move on. For now, make tea and watch movies that make you laugh or cry or both. Hugs to you!
Anonymous
I’m sorry. That is really rough no matter how it happened.
Anon
Hugs. Sorry you’re going through this. I think you already know that this is ultimately for the best, but the transition is hard. You don’t have to face the world alone. Lean on your friends, family, coworker friends, pets. They are in your corner too.
Anon
I’m sorry. There’s just going to be a time when it plain hurts and nothing can make it hurt less.
anoninco
Been there. Some of the hardest times were on the way home from work when you normally call that person, etc. Identify those little things and proactively fill the void or change your routine. I’m 42 now but went through my share of long-term relationship endings over the years. I feel your pain. Hugs and just look forward :)
Tailor in Alexandria?
Does anyone have a recommendation for a tailor in the Alexandria, VA, area? I need a floor-length gown hemmed significantly, and I think there’s a liner, so it may be a little complicated.
anon a mouse
Suh’s Custom Tailors on West Street – not cheap but very good.
Anonymous
Following up on the discussion yesterday, it sounds like there really are some work places that are implementing Robin DiAngelo-style trainings at work that might lead employees to be “forced“ to share protected characteristics. Setting aside the fact of whether that will actually help anything in the long run, how is that not a legal nightmare? Several of you posted that it has happened at your workplaces but how?
anon
I must be really naive because I can’t believe companies are dumb enough to do this. Isn’t this a huge HR risk? It seems wildly out of bounds for the workplace.
Anonymous
I’m OP from yesterday and I opted to take the beating instead of disclose. It was really embarassing and uncomfortable and performative.
Anonymous
Can you say more? What exactly happened? Good for you, though.
Nora
If you don’t mind, would you be able to explain what happened in this meeting? It sounds awful and completely ridiculous from what you and others have said so far.
Anon
I would be curious too but it sounds so awful I would not want to think about it again if I were OP.
Yesterday's OP
We either had to identify as a victim and explain how we were systematically disadvantaged or identify as an oppresser and then explain how we leveraged privilege to be terrible people. So I did the later, my answer was mostly a lie but ya gotta do what you gotta do.
Anon
That sounds terrible. Much of my nonwhite family doesn’t talk about the racism they’ve faced, at all, ever, even with closest family members. Perhaps they would benefit from exploring with a skilled therapist, but to force such a discussion at work is just so incredibly harmful to so many of my loved ones. I also don’t think it’d help my white family be less racist if they were forced to participate in this way.
Lyssa
Wow, that’s nuts. (The program, not you, of course). I find it hard to believe anyone thinks that this helps anyone.
Lyssa
I’m sorry it was uncomfortable, it sounds awful. If you’re willing to share details, I’d be really interested in how exactly it played out (for you and others). What exactly was requested and what people said about it, that sort of thing. But if you’d rather just not think about it any more, that’s perfectly reasonable.
Anonymous
What is the general attitude about whether this was a useful/constructive exercise?
Anon
Based on what you described, it sounds like you picked the best choice. You weren’t even lying because arguably (under their standards) you have the privilege of appearing white and appearing not disabled even though you aren’t actually either of those things.
Anon
I think workplaces have been doing dumb performative “wokeness” not to actually improve anything at their workplace but to be able to say they tried and did the programs. Back in 2004 or 2005 I was working for a state correctional facility and we had to do a truly horrendous anti-bias training . . . that had people of the protected classes in the same class. So, the instructor would call on someone and say “how comfortable are you working with gay men?” What are some reasons some people are uncomfortable around gay men? What can we do to change those biases? Repeat for every protected class. It would have been great if the class had been asked about “why are you afraid to work with old white men?” I could have given a nice long answer.
Anyway, there was gay man, a gay woman and a black man in my class and I was not at all comfortable talking about stereotypes that “society” has about them without it sounding like I held those on stereotypes. This is when there was less awareness of implicit bias so it’s not like everyone already had stock answers.
Anon
Just… wow.
Monday
Having read White Fragility, I don’t remember anything in it to suggest this approach. Do I remember incorrectly?
I know a lot of the criticisms of the book, but I think its good essential point has been lost.
Anonymous
DiAngelo herself forces workshop participants to rate themselves on a scale of privilege and engage in self-flagellation:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/magazine/white-fragility-robin-diangelo.html
Anon for this
I’m obviously white and a woman, and I’ve done similar exercises with a group of parents from my kids’ school without feeling like I’m being asked to confess every racist thing I’ve ever done. Perhaps someone is keeping track of my sort-of funny, sort-of sad narrative about how I grew up in a super-white town and will want to use it against me, but honestly, I’m a cagey GenXer and I have dealt with enough toxic fellow parents to know I have to be very, very careful.
Anonymous
I don’t think the point of these exercises is to ask white people to confess to specific acts, but to get them to confess that their whiteness makes them irredeemably evil.
Anon for this
I don’t feel like anyone was trying to get us to say we were irredeemable racists – I can’t go back in time and not say or do bad things I’m sure I’ve done, but I can understand the landscape. And I don’t know if we were even being encouraged to do better. But I am extremely cynical.
Anon for this
That said, I do wonder sometimes if this sort of training makes people even LESS inclined to interact with people outside their own race. I’ve definitely thrown up my hands sometimes when I see lists of micro-aggressions, because sometimes those lists make me paranoid that every sort of small talk I make with people is somehow culturally insensitive.
Anon
I was completely shocked by the pervasiveness of this seminar or whatever this indoctrination is. Did you know that serfdom in Russia ended in 1861? That’s 10MM super white people who experienced something very similar to slavery with the corresponding socioeconomic effects. While Russia did have a whole lot of other stuff that happened in between, the general point stands. Anyone could be a descendant of an underprivileged class and using skin color to determine if one comes from a history of oppression or privilege seems incredibly naive and reductionist, to the point that I just have a really hard time believing companies with real HR departments are participating.
Anonymous
Ok the training sounds crazy but I don’t know what this has to do with Russian serfdom, which is not the same as slavery
Anonymous
Not that poster, but the point is that assigning the title of “oppressor” based on skin color alone is extremely reductive. I assume that poster mentioned the timeline of serfdom being abolished to highlight that there are people alive today whose own great-great-grandparents could have been serfs. The timeline matches almost exactly with the start of the U.S. Civil War. There are a lot of immigrants, refugees, and political asylees from the former USSR in the U.S. today.
Anon
Yes, exactly. Thank you.
pugsnbourbon
Yeah serfdom is not comparable to hereditary chattel slavery, segregation/Jim Crow, and structural practices such as redlining.
Privilege is not just about advantages, it’s about the lack of active discrimination/disadvantages. White people, no matter their economic/social class, do not face disadvantages due to their skin color and thereby have privilege.
Anonymous
We don’t need to play oppression Olympics, but I hope you’re not suggesting that serfdom was NBD/not a form of oppression. That would be absurd.
Anonymous
Serfdom was not NBD. It was also not even remotely comparable to the transatlantic trade of enslaved peoples ripped away from their cultures and families and separated and sold regularly.
The problems stemming from the US history of slavery are not just about forced labor. And Russia has a horrendous racism problem so it’s not like having white indentured workers has taught them any empathy for other people.
Anon
Serfdom was a form of oppression, but it’s NOT very similar to hereditary chattel slavery, and the descendants of serfs do not face disadvantages from skin color. This is a very strange contribution to this thread. Please learn more before reducing slavery to its socioeconomic effects. There have been many different forms of slavery and oppression in history, and they’re not all comparable.
Anonymous
I don’t think anyone was claiming that descendants of serfs are facing disadvantages due to their skin color. We (or at least I) are saying that using skin color as some kind of all-around proxy for advantage/disadvantage is extremely reductive.
anon
*woosh*. That is the sound of the point flying over your head. Russian serfdom is not something its descendants continue to face, hello.
anonymous
If you’re white, you shouldn’t comment on this training (or similar antiracism strategies) except to acknowledge your internalized (or frankly explicit) white supremacist views. This is triggering and frankly I’d expect better from this group.
herro
This attitude is the problem. ^^ If I am forced to be involved, I can comment. Ever heard of free speech?
Anonymous
I’m pretty sure anonymous at 11:30 is being sarcastic.
Anonymous
Literally nothing suggests that anon at 11:30 is being sarcastic.
Anon
Oh no, she is absolutely not being sarcastic. This person/this type of person has been around the board for a long time – the person who acts as though anyone who has a different identity or opinion from their own is personally threatening/harmful to them.
Anonymous
https://notthebee.com/article/everyone-claiming-that-critical-theory-and-crt-are-no-big-deal-need-to-read-this–these-stories-are-multiplying–your-must-read-thread-of-the-day
anon
I have done a version of this where the moderator read off characteristics, and as she read one that applied to you, you moved to the other side of the room until only straight, white, non-disabled, cisgender Christian women remained. We were then divided into two groups (the aforementioned white women and everyone else) and the white women then received a fairly cringey lecture about recognizing our white identity (word I had only ever heard before from people in white robes and pointy hats, btw) and our special societal burdens as the people whose tears used to condemn black men to be lynched. There was a whole weird thing about how on the one hand we didn’t have sufficient racial consciousness as white people and we needed to have more of it (again, like, I had only ever heard this from David Duke types before), but on the other hand how the entire focus of white identity was about anti-blackness and white identity was terrible, so we needed to have less of it. It was pretty incoherent. Literally nobody talked except the moderator because it was so off the wall (and the moderator, who was also a white woman, got progressively more emotional over the course of the session as people got more disengaged). It was hard to even tell what input or response you were supposed to have, but I sure as heck was not going to be the person who offered comments.
It honestly felt sort of semi-religious in tone, in terms of being this “work” we were supposed to dedicate our lives to in order to expiate the original sin of our whiteness – like, it reminded me a lot of emotional sessions at church camp in my teens. There was no clear connection to work or our jobs and no real take-away other than this whole “committing to the work” thing (but again, it wasn’t clear what that was supposed to mean?).
I have no idea what the other group discussed, but they didn’t seem to like it either because when people talked about it later everyone, regardless of which group they had been in, was pretty much like, Well, that was…something.
Anon
I agree that it comes across as semi-religious. I honestly think this is the purpose: people who don’t want to make needed, substantive changes look for every opportunity to deflect onto identity, feelings, and “commitment” to nothing in particular. This has come up in religious history too (don’t worry yourself so much about the poor; what really matters is praying and reading the Bible and obsessing over whether your inner thoughts and feelings are holy enough, etc.).
Anonymous
Exactly. Structural racism is the problem. Show me the structures and I’ll gladly help dismantle them. A performance of self-loathing accomplishes nothing.
Anon for this
I feel like a lot of it is very performative. Someone in our school district is doing a study on how parents donate money to the schools (you can donate to a general fund or to individual schools). $20 to the general fund that they come up with information everyone knows anyway (the $$$$ parents donate to the schools where most of the $$$$ kids go) without any kind of proposed solution.
Anon for this
I’ve definitely gotten church camp vibes from some of these trainings as well. Perhaps I’ve been lucky, but unlike church camp, I haven’t had a training yet where people explicitly want you to cry, break down, or even say particular things. And having been through years of church camp, I’m very, very good at telling people what they want to hear if they are being unreasonable and we’re stuck in the same place.
theguvnah
I’d encourage you to do more reflecting on why it is you think considering your “white identity” is ineffective or useless. It’s actually an effective tool in thinking about white supremacy and the role we all play in upholding it.
anon
Mmm, the training was deeply useless. The concept of white identity might be worth reflecting on, but in the context of this training white identity had a specific and prescribed meaning that was resoundingly negative – the messaging was, essentially, your entire racial identity is constructed around hating and oppressing other people. There is no aspect of whiteness that is not a hateful reaction to the racial identities of others.
Those are assertions/ideological positions. They aren’t facts in any scientific sense. And yet, in trainings like the one I’m describing, they are absolutely treated as facts that can’t be disputed, discussed, or questioned. And that, to be honest, is what made it feel a lot like being at the fundie church camp of my youth. The only acceptable response is to agree and wait for it to be over.
So Anon for This
I posted about this yesterday but my office did something that sounds very similar and it was awful. And yes – your choices were either to identify as an oppressed minority or as an oppressor. So – if you are gay or disabled or bi-racial, you can either announce that fact to your co-workers or publicly beat yourself up.
It was horrific and incredibly counter-productive. I mean I am a moderately liberal person. But I might well vote for someone this side of Donald Trump who promised me I would never had to do that again. It reminded me very much of what I read about indoctrination/”re-education” sessions in totalitarian regimes.
I have not read “White Fragility” and I am hopeful that the industry that has sprouted up purportedly based on it has misinterpreted it. But it is an industry focused on emotion and not solutions. And it left several not otherwise bad people at my office with the definite impression that their safest bet was to just never talk to any co-worker who was not white. Because trying to be helpful/supportive is apparently racist.
Anonymous
But what I want to know is how is this legal? Are HR departments not worried about lawsuits? That sounds absolutely horrific and counterproductive for many reasons, but how is it even happening at all?
Anon
Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who are latching on to seminars like this as a way to do diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) work in a couple of days, vs. doing the really hard stuff that takes a long time. By that I mean doing things in their organization that actually have an impact on DEI, such as:
– Completely overhauling the employee recruitment process to remove bias, conscious or unconscious, in screening resumes and candidates, and prioritizing creation of a pipeline of employees from historically under-represented populations/communities
– Making sure all hiring/interview committees have at least one female or POC on them (some folks also include disabled employees or those who identify as LGBTQI but you have to be careful about asking people to self-disclose those identifications – as we can see)
– Measuring the current demographic composition of the workforce and setting goals to increase diversity, and then holding management/leadership accountable to meeting those goals
– Making everyone go through unconscious bias training and then auditing things like performance reviews for instances of bias/biased statements, which are then brought to the attention of managers and their managers and corrective actions are taken (or accountability actions result)
– Encouraging the formation of Employee Resource Groups and integrating ERG input into ALL company decision-making/strategic planning processes
Maybe the OP from yesterday’s organization is doing all of this stuff in addition to the seminar; I don’t know. I do know that just throwing people in a seminar and expecting transformational change and a diverse, equitable, and inclusive workforce is performative, it’s deeply lazy, and it won’t result in real change. Organizations remain undiverse and oppressive for one simple reason: company leadership isn’t held accountable to meeting DEI goals, the same way they’re held accountable for meeting financial targets. It’s not lack of awareness, it’s lack of accountability that causes these ongoing issues with subjugation and oppression of minorities in the workforce. Believe me, executives are aware of DEI issues. They just aren’t paid to care about them. They won’t get fired if the company misses the mark on DEI goals the way they will if their second-quarter earnings miss the projected targets.
I’ve been watching people throw the “let’s put everyone through diversity training” solution at the problem for 20+ years now. This new flavor of training based on White Fragility is just a particularly odious version of an old solution that has never worked and will never work. But the company gets to pat themselves on the back and say “Look, we did something about diversity!” The people who brought in the seminar get to check off a box that they met a goal for the year. The woman who wrote White Fragility and trained all these people to offer these seminars get to make a lot of money. All the employees subjected to this lose precious time and a feeling of psychological safety. But the biggest losers are the minority employees who get to watch everyone go through this 70’s Est-style encounter session, come out having professed their oppressor status, and then go right back to doing business as usual. Nothing changes and nothing gets better. Those are the people I really feel for.
So Anon for This
Also in response to the question of whether this training does any good, I am not aware of any research on the subject. In my own experience at my workplace, not a bit and it was counterproductive for two reasons (other than just making people mad). (1) It was completely focused on the feelings of the white people in the room. It was not about what you are doing or saying but self-examination; and (2) It was honestly one of the most racist presentations I have ever seen. Did you know that being on time is a matter of “white culture”? Did you know that scientific reasoning, emphasis on writing skills, and rational, logical thinking are “white” attributes? Yeah – neither did I. Foolishly I thought my non-white co-workers were just as inherently capable of all those things as I am rather than overcoming their inherent racial tendencies.
Anon
There are a lot of criticisms of “White Fragility” for exactly the reasons you explain: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/
I know a couple of POCs who are involved in DEI work in their organizations who deeply hate the book and actively steer people away from it, and from the seminars created from the content in the book.
Anonymous
If my employer did this, I’d be looking for another job.
Anon
This all makes me SO glad I’m a contractor and don’t work for a corporation any more.
I agree with the intent of these trainings, but from what you all are saying, not at all with the implementation. And I do extensive board level work in D&I.
Another 2nd shot question
Did anyone get their 2nd shot in a different place than their 1st shot? And if so, was it pretty simple to tell the staff you are there for the 2nd one? Anything I need to be aware of? I was planing to bring my vax card.
We drove an hour for our first one due to availability last month, but now everything is widely available where we are (Chicago), so we booked new appointments 10 minutes away (FYI both locations have tons of appointments and are doing walk ups etc, so pretty sure I’m not taking anyone else’s slot). There was nothing on the intake form about whether this was the first or second shot, so not sure what to expect. And yes, I’ve made sure it’s the same vaccine.
Anon
Randomly, is the vax card that important? At my first shot, they wrote my birth year wrong. I don’t think this is material (not sure anyone with my name was born on the same date six years later), but maybe someone else would think that writing a 0 down as a 6 is important somehow. Second shot isn’t for a few weeks and I will be getting it from the same provider but in a different location (that’s how they scheduled it). First location was a drive-through, so you couldn’t really go back to the people and say I was born in 1990 not 1996.
Cat
I mean you can fix your card with a ballpoint pen but since you’re going back to the same provider, ask them to verify the DOB is correct in their system? Like in my case they handwrote my name on the card but also entered my info in a laptop at the same time.
OP
I wasn’t sure about this either. My card had the location missing. My husband’s had the date missing…we both wrote it in with a pen afterwards?
This also makes me wonder about those “OMG NO ONE IS GETTING THEIR SECOND SHOT” articles. I mean, our record keeping on this is abysmal. I’m probably going to get counted as someone who missed their second shot because I went to a neighboring state to get my first one. And I’m pretty sure Chicago has all its own systems vs the rest of IL, and I know tons of people who went out to the burbs to get their first shots.
HW
My name is misspelled on mine. I didn’t notice until I got home. I might fix it myself, but am not that worried about it.
Anonymous
My husband did. He brought his vax card and they were able to find him on the statewide DOH system without a problem. He had no issues.
Anita
My sister did this and did not have a problem. Similar to you, she got the first shot in a different place but wanted to get the second shot in her hometown. When she made the appointment she did tell them the situation, it was not really important or a big deal to them. They wrote both of her doses on the same card. The second and first dose are the same “shot” so they don’t need to ask you which shot it is.
AIMS
I did this and it was not a problem. The s*ate was booked entirely for 1st day and 2nd day shots, depending on the day, so literally everyone there was getting dose 2.
MagicUnicorn
The big vaccine clinic that recently ramped up in my county specifically advertises that you can come get your second shot there even if you got the first one elsewhere.
Anan
There was an article yesterday in The NY Times that said the federal government just issued a statement that pharmacies should give second shots regardless of where the first shot was given.
Anonymous
We are doing this. The instructions say to bring your vax card, ID and health insurance card.
Anon
I just changed mine in the Chicago area – – I drove to a Walgreens near Midway for the first one and was hoping to a) get one faster than the 4 weeks, and b) get one closer to my house. I called the central Walgreens number and it was fast and easy to rebook for this Friday at a place 3 blocks from my house. There were a lot of options (this was for Pfizer).
Anon
Yes. I got my first shot in MD at a mass site (middle of nowhere, but only place I could get an appointment at the time). Second shot in DC. Wasn’t an issue at all.
ariana
Yesterday someone asked about the shorts version of yoga pants and got some good responses.
What are the dress version of yoga pants? A dress I can comfortably WFH in, look respectable on video calls, and also look respectable if I do leave my apartment.
Elle
Honestly for me it has been linen/linen blend dresses and rompers. I got a few from Amazon, a few from old navy and a few from loft. The ones I wear during the workday all have some sort of sleeve or I throw my desk cardigan over my shoulders when on a call.
Anon
+1 to linen. I do a combination of a linen top (loose tank or button front shirt) with easy pants or a skirt because I’m tall and dresses tend to be too short/short waisted for me. But it’s an easy easy look and seems more dressed up than it is.
Ribena
I like a ‘buffet dress’ for this. I have the ubiquitous Zara dress from 2019, a couple from Toast in the sale last year, just bought a shorter one from AlbaRay.
ariana
Just looked them up, buffet dresses are gorgeous! I’ll look for some
Anon
Just looked them up, buffet dresses are gorgeous! I’ll look for some
anon a mouse
For me it is the Boden Amelie jersey dress. More structured than a t-shirt dress but super comfortable. Easy to dress up with jewelry for video calls.
oil in houston
+1, just ordered myself a second one!
Sloan Sabbith
Swing dresses. They have them at old navy all the time. Just bought one from Amazon Essentials I like.
Linen dresses maybe also but I think they’re slightly fussier than just a basic swing dress.
NY CPA
This is actually the dress form of yoga pants. Completely comfy and still respectable looking for WFH (assuming people are dressed fairly casually–it looks like a V-neck tee on screen). I absolutely LIVED in these dresses last summer and am planning to do the same this year. Bonus: they come in straight sizes, petite, and plus.
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/122071?page=womens-summer-knit-dress-short-sleeve-print-misses&bc=12-27-506213&feat=506213-GN3&csp=a&pos=1
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/77625?page=summer-knit-dress&bc=12-27-506213&feat=506213-GN3&csp=a&pos=5
anonymous
Old Navy jersey swing dresses.
Dvf PSA...wrap effect dresses
For all those who love DvF wrap dresses but the fit is off …try the wrap effect dress from DvF. They’re basically faux wraps and they’re awesome. I bought the Isadora dress and I’m a very busty and curvy size 8-10, with 9” waist-hip gap and an 8” bust-waist gap.
Anon
I just can’t fill up the top. And I have generous hips, so I can’t size down. Love the fabric, so I am keeping them . . . I have no idea why. It would take some serious duct tape to make this fit. So pretty on the models though.
Anon
Ooh, thanks. Going to hunt now.
SSJD
My son’s 8th grade graduation is coming up, and we learned that it will be in person. Yay! I am so glad that we can gather as a school community for this. (They are being very responsible, limiting it to the graduates and parents only, following all guidelines, etc.)
I pulled out the photos from my 8th grade graduation in 1991 and noticed that all the boys are in suit jackets and ties. Girls are in dresses (mostly white). I never would have thought to put my son in a jacket, although it’s a nice idea. My grandparents are in the 1991 photos, and my grandfather is also in a tie. My mother is in some ugly 90s outfit that may or may not have been dressy, it’s so unattractive that it’s hard to tell ;) Anyway, just thinking about how times have changed and how much less formal things are. My kids get dressed up regularly for religious services (used to be weekly in before times), but I was still surprised by the jacket and ties on the boys.
As for the upcoming 2021 event: I am thinking of wearing a beautiful Ulla Johnson dress with a bit of metallic thread in it. It feels a bit fancy, but I’m inspired by the old photos and the rare opportunity to actually get dressed up for something!
anne-on
I think it depends on your area as well, and perhaps religion – 8th grade graduation would be close age-wise to confirmation/bar or bat mitzvahs so families may already have bought jackets/ties and stuck their kids into them before they grew out of them to get one more wear out of pricey clothing. Our school sets a formal dress code for graduation so jackets and ties are required, which honestly I think is nice – it’s a celebration! The school also has a closet you can ‘shop’ where the parents donate outgrown gently used dress clothes so you don’t need to buy new if you can’t (or heck, if you realize your kid had a growth spurt the week before graduation!).
Anonymous
Definitely regional. I grew up in SoCal in the ’80s/early ’90s and boys only wore jackets and ties for formal dances and musical performances. We had a huge music program so every boy I knew owned a tux, but I don’t think any of them owned a regular suit.
Anon
Yes – my middle school and high school required jackets and ties for boys and white dresses for girls. My mom still works there so I can tell you that the dress code is still the same.
While my life is pretty casual I do think there’s something about getting dressed up and looking nice – especially for special occasions!
Anon
100% wear the Ulla Johnson! I fully intend to have almost all family photos of me in glamorous outfits – I am that aunt.
SSJD
Thanks! Yes, I think I’ll wear the Ulla Johnson. I looked at the receipt and was reminded how much I paid for it (it was second hand and a great deal but still a lot), and I should wear it as often as possible. I bought it in October and haven’t worn it yet, so I’ve got to get started.
I love the idea of being glamorous! In my head I normally think of myself as being “fancy”, but “glamorous” is another nice adjective.
Anon
Talk to me about non-Covid masks for outdoor work. Both husband and I are allergy sufferers who share the lawn mowing and yard care duties, and I am looking for some kind of protective mask to filter pollen while we are breathing hard doing strenuous cardio (yard is steep). Both of us end up coughing up green gunk for hours after working outside.
(And yes, the best option would be to hire out the work, but he absolutely will not have that. There have been multiple fights about it.)
Cat
I mean, why not try out your normal masks for this first? Pollen is enormous compared to breath-droplets!
Maybe try some construction masks (designed for dust particles)?
Anon
The construction ones are a great idea, thank you! Don’t know why I didn’t think of that.
Anon
If your regular masks are too thick I don’t think you’ll find construction masks to be better.
Anonymous
I would try out surgical masks first. They’re easier to breathe in compared to N95s and if you get a good fit, I bet they will improve the pollen situation significantly. If you want to be eco-friendly, I’d try a high-quality cloth mask with a very tight weave.
Anon
I’ve tied a bandana around my face before. I may try my KN-95s this year. There are masks specifically sold for this purpose. I have a friend that wears one running (long before COVID) but I don’t know who makes them.
Anon
I’d just wear a cotton Covid mask? Why would this need something else?
Anon
Those are fine for walking around a store, but too thick for when you’re struggling and gasping and sweating. I tried them. I got light-headed and woozy.
Anonymous
Huh. I work out in cotton masks. There are some thinner versions – two layer instead of three. But definitely see of the construction masks are more comfortable.
Anon
How vigorous is your gardening??
Sterling Archer
Are we not doing phrasing anymore?
Anonymoose
Just snorted at this!
Anon
Fair question! We own a good amount of land in a semi-rural area, so this isn’t light weeding. We’re talking brush clearing, small tree removal, mowing over an acre on an incline, etc.
Anon
YESSSSS love Archer.
Anon
I snorted my coffee here…
Anon
God I love Archer.
Anon
I mean they make a zillion single ply ones? Not everything was thick and hard to wear? Seems like the best time ever to get any ole mask you want.
MagicUnicorn
Just wear your normal masks, although if you have the K/N-95 types, perhaps opt for a cloth version because it is easier to toss those in the washing machine. Pollen particles are large and kinda sticky.
Pollen has been awful this year but the ubiquity of pandemic masks is a silver lining as far as allergy season goes.
Anon
I am going to incorporate singing in the shower into my morning routine, because it’s the biggest mood booster in the world. Thus I’m making a playlist of shower songs to rock out to. Song suggestions please? So far I have Zombie by the Cranberries, and a few Billie Eilish and Adele songs.
Anon
Breakin Up by Rilo Kiley.
anne-on
Portions for Foxes is my all time favorite Rilo Kiley song, and Silver Lining is a good dancing around the house song. Your Ex-Lover is Dead by Stars, Pyscho Killer, Catch my Disease by Ben Lee, Hanging Around by counting crows, and Cecilia by Simon & Garfunkel are all on my workout playlist!
Anon
LOVE Silver Lining as well!
Also, I forgot: Hotel Song by Regina Spektor
CrowTRobot
I like your style.
SSJD
Jackson Five’s “ABC”. It’s so happy! Also Katie Perry’s “Eye of the Tiger”
anon.
Raising Hell (Big Freedia/Kesha)
Anon
Shower singing me channels all the church songs from my childhood. I have not been a churchgoer for many years, but the music is still with me. And I know every word to every song! Probably not the kind of music you were expecting, but it works for me.
emeralds
Love Again by Dua Lipa!
MagicUnicorn
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Anan
Showtunes!
Anon
The Who: Squeeze Box
Anonymous
New Miley Cyrus album (she covers zombie which is great). Also plastic hearts and the edge of midnight remix. Is this a breakup mix or just 90s-angst?
Anon
It just really strikes me as funny that someone would try to plan and schedule singing in the shower.
Abby
It just really strikes me as funny that someone would try to plan and schedule singing in the shower.
Anon
Marvin Gaye
Aretha Franklin
You can’t not sing along.
Anon
I wanted to jump back to yesterday’s resume post. Thanks to everyone who chimed in. A legal recruiter had mine at 2 pages but now I’m looking to go in house, and I really think I need to cut it down. Does anyone have a site they like for resume templates? Or do you just make your own? It seems like the sidebar template is popular, so I guess I will go with that but it seems easier to get a template to fill in than to create that from scratch. Any recs?
Curious
I use the templates from Yale Career Services. The only useful thing anyone’s career services ever did for me :)
Cat
FWIW I wouldn’t feel compelled to reinvent the wheel here.
I’ve looked at probably 20 midlevel associate resumes over the past 3 years, and maybe 1-2 of them were anything other than plain vanilla bullet point formatting. A few used an intro “objective” paragraph that didn’t really add much, basically just word salad that looked designed to hit keyword scans.
Focus on making your descriptions lively & concise rather than fancy text boxes!
Anon
Eh, I disagree – in-house a lot of communication is in PPTs and someone who shows me good graphic design in their resume is probably someone who’s going to do better presentations too. Is it a dealbreaker, absolutely not but it is something I notice and if picking between talking to two people with nearly identical experience, I’m going for the person with the designed /well thought out resume.
Cat
oh man, glad I do not work in your org. That’s thankfully not true of mine!
Anon
My org has PowerPoint templates used for our in-house training. My presentation skills are mentioned in the second page of my resume, under things like “news appearances” where I go on the evening news to explain a legal topic to lay people.
anon
I actually bought a template from etsy of all places (for $10, so not much money), and several people commented that they really liked my resume format. It is the sidebar template version, fwiw.
Anon
I missed yesterday’s thread (and will go back to see if this is covered) but I find it so aggravating how contradictory the resume advice is. Some sites say keep it one page, take off anything not relevant to the job you are applying to, explain gaps in the cover letter. Then my local bar association said list every single legal job no matter how short because it appears dishonest otherwise.
Anonnn
Anecdata: I was hired in-house at a global manufacturing/engineering company with an excellent legal department of ~200 people with a 2 page resume. I do not have any pre law school info there and it’s important to me to show all of my substantive and measurable accomplishments. In-house is a cost center so anything that shows you can help recover or reduce costs is great.
taylor
How many hours of focused work and/or meetings do you do per today?
I don’t need to track my hours per work but I started to for my own time management. This week has been rough for me, but I only did 5 hrs of work that would be “billable work” if we did that on Monday, and 4.5 hrs yesterday.
Anonymous
Wow, this varies a lot for me. Wish it didn’t. My non billable is only things like marketing presentations, lunches, pro Bono, partner meetings, or other “work related” stuff (not clearing inbox, time off, water cooler zoom). Here are my weekly totals the last four full weeks:
– March 29 – 31 billable, 14 non
– April 4 – 34 billable, 5.5 non
– April 11 – 42 billable, 9 non
– April 18 – 19 billable, 4 non
Sloan Sabbith
Focused work? During work from home? God, who knows. Couple of hours at night once or twice a week at least so I can get big stuff done but I barely ever have uninterrupted time during the day where I really feel like I can do “deep work” or focus. If you add in meetings, probably 10-12 hours a week for both.
Sloan Sabbith
To be clear, I do work more than 12 hours a week but I wouldn’t say I can call the rest of it focused work as much as short bursts of work between chaos.
Anon
+1
It’s pretty rare to have a day with multiple hours in a row of focused work.
Anon
That’s not my value. If I have one idea that makes my company money or saves them from a huge risk, I’ve earned my keep. That may take an hour, 20 minutes or days.
Anon
That’s a great way of putting it. I work on difficult matters and my job involves a lot of tough decision making and tough negotiations. Sometimes it feels like I am very inefficient, and I get down on myself. But I need to remind myself that my value and my work is in making those tough decisions and handling those difficult issues, not in producing X widgets per hour.
Clementine
So. I’ve had to basically look at my whole team and how long their ‘tasks’ should take. (We had to rebalance staff as some people had workloads wildly out of balance.)
Looking at myself (not a lawyer, Government Manager):
Average Week – 8 hours of standing recurring meetings.
4 hours meetings with external partners which each require about an equal amount of prep so 8 total
Long term tasks – 4 hours – stuff like long term projects, working with my team on their development, etc.
Short term tasks (aka putting out fires, answering random crisis emails, etc.) 20 hours
That’s my base 40 hours. I will say, I used to be in the office physically for way more time but probably get about the same amount of stuff done. I got more efficient after I had kids because I genuinely wanted to get home and be able to be present.
(FWIW- I can’t get out of those recurring meetings and I do need to pay attention because I am a SME in a weird area… but I’m listening to a call right now and they’re talking about something that has nothing to do with me and 100% do my ‘fart around on the internet’ time during these type of calls.)
Anon
I purchased a leather tote bag that arrived a bit misshapen. The internet tells me I can iron the leather (lowest heat setting, no water, put a clean cotton cloth in between leather and iron). Anyone care to talk me out of this or give me reassurance this isn’t a bad idea?
Tessa Karlov
Before you apply heat, I’d give it a good dose of leather conditioner and stuff things in it to return it to its natural shape. If that doesn’t work the low iron/cloth barrier does sound reasonable.
Anonymous
Can you try to exchange for another?
Anin
I would return it. The seller should have taken better care with packaging (filling the bag with sturdy material and wrapping it so that it does not wrinkle). Why risk destroying a bag and losing refund option?
Anon
I need some more ideas for things I can do to do home life more from work…I’m in a slower time period at work so beyond doing some continuing education/training things, I want to be able to tackle some home life administrative things from my office…first on my list was working on refinancing my home loan, but looking for some other ideas!
Sloan Sabbith
Setting up home maintenance appointments, doctor appointments, dealing with student loan BS, digitally organizing personal photos or documents (I’d only do this while working from home),
CHL
Digital Photo organization/ printing? This is a task that is computer based that I NEVER feel like doing and could be chipped away at.
Writing better job ads
A couple of the posts yesterday – job ads, and jargon-y acronyms, and general diversity training – put me in mind of this article that I just saw about how to write jobs ads that encourage inclusion. (Link to follow) It’s written by an organization that runs a jobs board (among other things) and it lists reasons that they might ask an organization to re-write a job ad before they post it, things in the ad they see as creating barriers or discouraging a diverse pool of applicants. For example, Jargon-y passive voice writing was something they cited as creating a sense of a exclusion. Also the use of phrases like “energetic” or “mature” will often discourage people with certain conditions from applying.
I really agree with a lot of the things in the article, particularly if you’re posting entry level positions. But I’m wondering if that is because I work in the non-profit world? How realistic do we think these guidelines would be for other industries? Also wondering for those who write copy for job ads, do you think about these things and have you found language or techniques prove useful for encouraging a broad spectrum of applicants?
Follow up link
https://www.arts-emergency.org/noticeboard/21/04/write-better-job-adverts
Anonymous
Lol mental first aid? What even?
Anonymous
I think some of the suggestions are very good and some “mental health first aid” are utterly ridiculous and diminish the validity of the overall message.
Anon
I don’t know where “mental first aid” would come into play on a job ad but it is a very legitimate concept utilized in fields that are often exposed to trauma. If you fell at work and skinned your knee you wouldn’t be embarrassed to get a bandage from the first aid kit. If you see someone die, you may need some mental first aid too. A debriefing session, counseling, time off…
Anonymous
I just finished my first ever trial for my own client. I’d like to do something to thank my trial team. In the past, equity partners have done anything from next to nothing to hosting a dinner at a fancy restaurant for the team and SOs. I’m a junior income partner in a biglaw satellite office; my salary isn’t much higher than NYC first years in other firms and I don’t get a guaranteed percentage of any receivables I bring in (totally unfair imho and yes I’m considering a move). I’m not in a position to spend thousands of dollars on a dinner, but I want to do something more than just saying thank you. The trial team is spread across several offices that are not within easy driving distance. What is something nice I can do for everyone to thank them for their efforts? Should I do something extra for the staff versus the attorneys, or give everyone the same thing?
No Face
A partner gave me a card with a personal note after we won a very tough case and it honestly meant a lot to me. Obviously give glowing reviews during review time. I’ve also gone to fancy post-case dinners.
There are small, interesting food businesses that are shipping now that didn’t before. If there is a cool dessert place (or something) maybe let people pick what they want and then ship it to them?
Anon
Honestly since you can’t take everyone out to dinner, I would do nothing.
Anonymous
At my firm the standard is a fancy dinner and the cost doesn’t come out of the partners personal account it is a business expense charged to the firm. I’d check on something like “hey person in charge of expenses since I can’t take my trial team out to dinner I’m going to send them each a gift box around $200, that cool?”
OP
Interesting, the team dinner is definitely out of pocket for the partner here, there’s no way the firm would pay for anything like that. I begged and cajoled and twisted many arms to get everyone a firm branded travel coffee mug “because Covid” ie we don’t want people using coffee cups that have been sitting out so it’s either that or get me countless numbers of individually wrapped disposable coffee cups thx.
Anonymous
It’s kinda hokey, but I know a partner who does themed trophies for trial teams and I kind of love it.
Anon
I was on a big (dozens of people) case team and the lead partner sent out a fancy candy box to everyone who billed on the case. It was small but made me feel special as one of many satellite office associates who wasn’t in the thick of things.
Anon
Buy/send everyone a bottle of beverage or an edible treat of some sort? Or even make a coffee mug with a nice celebratory quote and send it to everyone with some fancy coffee?
Anonymous
I live in a well-off suburb of a major city. I think the average home is around $900k but the town has single family homes that sell from $400k-$3M or so. Typically we are talking about families that still have to work for their money, but in lucrative careers like finance or big law and we have lots of CxOs running about. The public schools are good so the kids of these families largely go there. DH and I have a nice house that is right about average in terms of cost. Our HHI is $300k. We don’t feel “too rich” or “too poor” in town.
So. My daughter (8)’s best friend is this girl C. We’ve known C since preschool and they live down the road in a nicer and certainly better decorated home that they’ve made some pretty, well, lavish improvements to over the past few years (eg. put in a nice pool, added a “wing,” etc). When I was over there picking her up recently, I noticed they had put a lift in their garage and now there is not one, but two, racing Porsches). C has always been a little spoiled and bratty, but honestly that is fairly common among kids around here. My daughter will occasionally ask why C gets $20/tooth from the tooth fairy (“we must have different tooth fairies!”), or will come back from C’s house asking for a new American Girl doll (“C just got the new one!” “You have one already.” “Yeah but C has NINE and the new one has unicorn hair!”). Over the summer, my daughter started asking if we can put in a pool (“why would we do that? you only want to play with C, so go over there and swim!”).
Over the past year, it’s surfaced that C’s family has not just a lot of money, but A LOT of money. They just bought a $5M vacation home in a nearby vacation place (think: we live in Garden City and they bought out in the Hampdons), and my kid is asking when we will get a second house (possible, but not for another 5 years and certainly not THAT kind of second home!). Last week my daughter came home telling me about the new horses that C and her sister got (yes, horses) and that C is going to start riding, and that sounds fun, can she?
On top of all of this, I recently found out that C’s mom is a Big Deal Instagram Influencer. I thought she was a hobby interior designer, but apparently she has like 500k followers and lives this whole life online I knew nothing about.
I’m not sure why I’m sharing all these details, other than I find the whole thing so crazy because I’ve known this girl for 5 years but I guess I’ve never really known her family well. My question is how to continue to let my daughter have a strong friendship with this girl while setting expectations for what our family does and how that’s very different from C’s family. This is only going to escalate as they get older- C will most certainly have a fancy new cell phone soon, a new car, etc.
Anonymous
Maybe post on the mom’s page?
Monday
In my experience, kids can (and need to) learn about money by natural exposure to people who both have more and have less. If your daughter and C enjoy each other’s company, they will remain friends and find the maturity to deal with the disparity in money–unless they get cues from their parents that it’s a problem.
Parents can say “We choose to spend our money on X or Y instead of on that;” or simply, “We don’t have money to pay for that. I’m sorry.”
Dear+Summer
Can you just tell your daughter that C’s family has more money(which explains the homes and cars) and has different values (which explains the new dolls)? At 8 years old she can certainly understand the concepts.
Cat
idk if I would get into “values’ with an 8yo but at 8 I was definitely aware of the concept that some families were “rich”. Everything from A Little Princess to Little House to Samantha’s American Girl stories talked about money and who did or didn’t have as much of it…
Anonymous
Yeah nothing wrong with saying “we aren’t getting a second house and three ponies because we cannot afford it.”
Anonymous
This. Tell your kid you don’t have as much money as their family. That’s the reality. We have a similar situation although on a lesser scale. Neighbours across the street and next door have a HHI that’s easily double ours.
We straight up tell our kids – different families have different amounts of money and even when different families have close to the same amount of money. Like some people chose to have a newer car, we chose to have an older car and go visit family in Europe every year. DH and I spend a lot on travel. Like I drive an old Dodge and my new BMW driving BFF will spend maybe half of what we spend on vacation accommodation/flights. My sister had an inexpensive horse growing up, her friends had ones that cost 3 times as much. That’s just life.
Why do different families have different amounts of money? Because their parents had money and gave them some/bought them a house etc or because they picked jobs that make lots of money. Then we explain that we picked jobs that offered a comfortable lifestyle but also reasonable hours (we talk about that we don’t work weekends like some friends parents), and meaningful work (we both work related to environmental regulation). We explain that we were lucky to be able to do that because our parents paid for college so we could pick jobs we loved and not just jobs that paid back loans. One kid wants to be a vet and the other a ‘habitat saver’ because that’s the ‘most important’ job. Neither is picking their job based on having as much money as their friends parents. Money isn’t happiness and the sooner kids learn that, the better it is for their mental health.
Quail
Yes – and consider giving her an allowance and maybe discussing your family finances and budget with her (to an appropriate level and mostly with values in mind). I think being open about money is a gift we can give our kids, especially girls.
Blueberries
I agree with telling your daughter that different families have different amounts of money and different values. I think it’d also be helpful to place your family’s wealth in local/regional/global context, so your daughter gets an understanding that your family is wildly better off than most in the world (I think the team behind the book Factfulness has a website that shows what life is like for typical families around the world).
You can also explain that at almost any level of wealth, there is always someone with more, and while you can enjoy their hospitality, it’s unhelpful to set our desires at what the people with the most can afford.
anon
This. She’s 8. You can be more direct about this basic fact (in an age appropriate way). She is obviously picking up on the fact that some people have more money than others; this is a basic fact of life that she will need to understand and accept. You are basically dodging the questions right now so that’s why the answers aren’t satisfying and the questions keep popping up. Just present the facts neutrally. My parents were pretty direct about this stuff with me from a young age and definitely set expectations. Just present the facts neutrally. Different careers compensate differently, different roles compensate differently. What role does education play? What role does luck play? What role do choices play? Do they make different choices about what to spend money on? Families have to set budgets because it’s important to live within your means. You can also use this as an opportunity to explain how luck your family is relative to the vast majority of people in the world and even in this country. That’s a great lesson to learn.
Anon
You need to nip this in the bud. Explain to your daughter the basics of well…humans that some people earn more money than others, that some people get money from their family when they die, some people don’t have to work, and some people have very little even though they work very hard. Explain that your family can’t afford all the things C’s family can afford but that doesn’t make you better or worse, just different – and emphasize that for people at all incomes.
It’s your job to teach your child about the concept of money and fairness, not to make her stop asking for stuff. Also, you sound incredibly jealous given that you’re objectively rich too- you might want to work on that too.
Anon
I agree. I had this conversation with my kids. “Some people have more money, some people have less, and all people have different ideas about what to spend their money on. We are not poor! We are far from poor. But owning a pool and a ski house and having two Teslas isn’t in our budget.”
Anonymous
On a very different scale, but I was your daughter as a kid. My two best friends had much wealthier parents and got all kinds of things I didn’t, lived down the street but in much nicer homes, etc. My.mother was pretty matter of fact about the fact that my friends’ parents had more money and there were going to be things we couldn’t afford. And she used that word – that is not something we can afford. It definitely affected my perspective on things but it wasn’t like my parent could (or should) just start giving me stuff they couldn’t afford. Just start getting her used to that idea. Plus, chances are those people will go through some level of financial crisis when the kids are teenagers and your daughter wil be there to console C about how decent life can be when your parents only make 300k.
Anon 2.0
This is just the reality that she will have to face – not everyone lives the same life. I’d use this as a teaching moment to not only explain why everyone doesn’t get the same things but to also teach gratitude for what she has. Maybe some type of volunteering you can do together to show her the nice life she already has? I know, she is young and likely won’t “get it” at first but it sows the seeds of gratitude and understanding everyone lives a different life.
No Face
I think you should just explain that different families have different amounts of money and/or make different choices about how to spend money. I also think it is a good life lesson to learn that sometimes, you just can’t afford some of the things you want. If you can’t afford a second home, I would explain that.
I remember at about 10 years old, my mom explained that we had to pay rent, utitlies, car expenses, etc and that only leaves a little for fun spending. I started tutoring and baby sitting at a young age to buy things I wanted. I also became a scholarship student at a private school where my friends’ pool houses were larger than my apartment. They had things I didn’t.
anne-on
I think you just keep doing what you’re doing. I’d also start to introduce some discussions of privilege with her – 8 is old enough to understand that some things are ‘needs’ some things are ‘wants’ and that some people have more than us and we have more than others. I also think it’s important to start setting the stage for more candid conversations about money – people have different priorities with their money, and it’s totally fine to talk with kids about what is or isn’t possible with more neutral language – that’s not in our budget, or you picked soccer this season for your sport, if you really would like to ride horses we can look into that next year, etc.
It also sounds like there really isn’t anything wrong or bad with this family, you’re just a little jealous/startled/taken aback by their level of wealth. But have they ever been rude or mean or exclusionary to you? If not I really don’t see an issue?
anon
I’d gently probe your daughter why she thinks that your family needs to have all the same things that the other family has. Maybe it’s just coming from her being a kid and not understanding money, but if she is treated differently by her friend or the family b/c you don’t have the same wealth, then I’d want to know.
Anon
I wouldn’t do this. She’s 8, she clearly just thinks horses sound fun. I’d never assume bad intentions with another family just because they are very wealthy.
I think you just have to be open with your daughter and not worry about it. These are things that you are picking up on more than her at this point. C’s taking up riding? Great news kid, you’re busy with swim class!
We are well off but not crazy well off but send my daughter to private school. My daughter’s friends with one kid whose dad is a billionaire and owns a sports team. She’s only 7, but I think she’s also seen the trade-offs. She’s decided she’s much happier that her parents have regular jobs (lawyer and doctor?). But she’s also glad friend Y throws awesome birthday parties.
I think telling her (and her younger siblings) “no, i don’t care what c has” is great practice even starting now. And being around kids who have a lot is probably not necessarily bad! She can compare and decide what she likes about her own family! And take pride in it! And avoid getting a chip on her shoulder now or in the future.
anne-on
Also, I’m nosy and curious – do you live next to Erin Gates? In the burbs of Utah, land of all the Mommy Bloggers? Ha – you obviously do not need to answer this but I’m having fun imagining the possibilities!
Anon
Or Byron Bay?
NY CPA
I was thinking Westchester or North Jersey (Summit, etc.)?
Anon
I was betting Wellesley, Ma., C’s second home would be on the Vineyard or Nantucket.
Anonymous
Not with a top end house price of $3m or an average of $900k.
all about eevee
Just tell your kid the truth – you have less money than C’s family does. Also, is C’s Mom posting the kids on social media or nah?
Anonymous
Re: the kids- I honestly don’t know. Someone I know saw me the other day and I mentioned that my kid was at C’s and they were like “you know her for real??? I only know her in insta.” I of course was totally oblivious and checked out her handle. Looks like it’s not any kid photos but that she might feature them in stories sometimes?
Anon
I just wanna know C’s mom’s handle!
Anon
It’s all in how you handle it. Otherwise, rich kids who have no friends to play with because other kids’ parents are uncomfortable. We live where we have more $ than some but less than others. And I am not a big spender and I’m OK with that. My kids often want things, but we leave it as “well, you can save up your money and then decide when you have enough.” That usually stops things cold — no one wants to spend their $, just my $. Other things are frank: we don’t have $ for some things (we can rent a beach house for a week, but won’t be buying one). When they are grownups, they can decide to do different things with their $.
I do want to ask some people: what are you doing right so that I can tell my kids to do that, but only in jest. I believe a lot of the lifestyle I see is financed by debt / generous parents (esp. when you see people with 3+ kids in private school). But some people are just spenders whereas I am worried that if I live into my 90s, I will outlive my $. So no Porsche for me.
Being comfortable in your own skin is important — if it can’t be done at 300K HHI, we are in bad shape.
Of Counsel
I live in a similar neighborhood with a similar middle of the road income and I encountered this same issue when my daughter was young. I second the advice that this is the time to say that some people have more and some have less. Compared to the overwhelming number of people in the word your family is very, very lucky. BUT we do not have as much as C’s family and probably never will. I would not do the whole “different families have different priorities” because (while true) it is not really the issue here. It is not the you do not want to live that life. You could not if you wanted to.
I added my mantra which is that if you focus on what you do not have compared to other people you will always be unhappy because someone will always have something you do not. If you focus on how fortunate you are compared to people who do not have food or safety, you will be much happier.
And at some point, I kind of lost it with the “why don’t we have a pool” and told my kid in no uncertain terms that there were children going to sleep hungry tonight. Mothers who literally could not feed their children. People living in war zones who were not sure if they would live through the night. People living on the streets with their kids in cardboard boxes. And I did not want to hear another complaint from a little girl who had everything in the world she needed and most of what she wanted. (She actually still remembers that; it made quite an impression.)
Anon
I posted above about my daughter who’s friends with a literal billionaire. I second all of this. Particularly not the priorities issue – we may even have the same priorities!
I’ll add that she’s gotten very into volunteering recently so it’s been very easy for her to see that some have more and some have less. We volunteer at the food bank (her idea!) and she’s been donating some of her allowance to that. Honestly her friend’s family does a ton for charity – I try not to make comparisons there because we can give better with our time than our checkbook! It’s all about contributing.
Uh yes the pool thing has come up at my house too. We tell them it ain’t happening and isn’t it more fun swimming with other kids at the community pool?! But it’s totally annoying.
Anonymous
My daughter was friends with a kid whose HHI was maybe 3x ours. It was absolutely terrible. My kid was convinced that we were poor because we didn’t visit the Galapagos and Iceland in the same year and because we didn’t have a 4,000 sf house with a full basement rec room where she could entertain her friends. The parents were demanding and manipulative, used other people’s children for their child’s gain, and always got their way because they were rich.
I would steer clear of these people. If the mom is an Instagram influencer and the wealth and power imbalance between their family and yours is as great as you describe, the normal tween friendship drama is likely to be extra dramatic and very public.
Anon
I laughed at teen drama being placed on mom’s Instagram because I see this all the time. Grown women who are petty and vindictive and they post vague comments about teaching their teens about ‘mean girls’ and ‘rising above’ and all that. They love teen drama because they can showcase how they are teaching their kids to be better than that (spoiler alert: they are not). My sister in law is the meanest person I know and does this all the time.
Anon for this
While sometime I wish I had the money to send my kids to a fancy LA prep school, this kind of stuff makes me happy I don’t have that kind of scratch. My kids are ridiculously privileged compared to most American kids, and they don’t need to get a distorted view of wealth by going to eighth grade with the children of movie stars and captains of industry.
Anon
When your kid asks why C’s family has those things and your family doesn’t, I would tell her that MOST families don’t have those things. Tell her that C’s family is very nice, they work hard, and it’s lovely for them that they have so much money; however, most everyone in the world does not.
anon
I don’t think it’s necessarily good to push the ‘they work hard’ angle. The truth is society compensates a lot of activities that aren’t hard work, or aren’t work that is contributing to society, WAY more than other activities that are legitimately very hard or contribute to society.
Annony
This is not intended as a judgment on C or her family, and I appreciate that you are looking for ways to support the girls’ friendship, but it might be worth seeing if your daughter could diversify her friend group a bit. You don’t sound like you love C, you don’t know her family that well … and if she’s a “bit spoiled and bratty”, that may not be the best foundation for a great “best friend” relationship in a few years. Spending some time with other kids who live differently might help reset what your daughter thinks of as “normal.” Just a thought.
Anonymous
OP here. Thank you all for your insight. I should add that she does have a broad friend group, so I am actually interested in advice on both ends. A friend of hers from sports is in subsidized housing, for example, which is markedly different from where my kid lives. Some of her friends have 2-parent full time working families, some have SAHMs, some have complex home situations. But C has been her BFF since she was 2.5.
I think it’s a combo of not only the money dynamics but also the way C is raised, which is by parents that speak with a language of gifting love. C’s dad makes a lot of money and the family was wealthy before Insta- that sort of it just sort of makes me laugh because I’ve known them all this time and had no idea they are insta-famous.
Anonymous
This family clearly does not share your values. Why are you encouraging this friendship? You need to cut this off while your daughter is young and you still have enough control over her comings and goings to do so. Do you want her being offered drugs at a party at C’s house when she’s 14?
anon
Why are you jumping from ‘these people have and spend more money than your fam’ to ‘they will get daughter on the wrong path’? This is some weird fear mongering.
Anon
I think it’s really important that your kid sees and knows friends who have less than her too. I grew up in a place where I could see poverty every time I stepped out the door (homeless people, street vendor kids, beggars) and it drove home how lucky I am. If your kid only sees people better off than her, she won’t realize this.
Anon
A great gateway/complement to your conversation would be the book Material World, which shows families around the globe photographed with all of their possessions.
Anon
How do you decide how much to spend on a house? DH and I are in our early 30’s, HHI of ~$230k. We currently own a condo in a large city, and are considering buying a house in the suburbs and renting out the condo. DH is determined to buy a house less than $500k, with a strong preference of close to $400k. We occasionally find a house in this price range but he feels its “overpriced”, the houses in our area in that price range are slim pickings. According to those “how much house can you afford?” websites we could spend over a million on a house, which is hard to believe. Possibly relevant: We have very high credit scores, no kids, currently maxing out all 401k/Roth IRA options, have about $15k in various investments, and an emergency fund that could sustain us for over a year if needed.
Anon
Maybe figure out what you range want your payment to be in and work backwards.
Anon
i agree with this. i disagree that you should necessarily be able to afford your mortgage on one income. that might work in some areas or on some incomes, but a lot of times one spouse earns a lot more than another. we have extra emergency savings and various forms of insurance to account for that.
Cat
So obviously this doesn’t work for everyone, but for us (we are about 55/45 so almost equal high earners) it was a neat way to put a cap on it. You have to figure out your stopping point somewhere. Otherwise — well of course we could find a house we loved even more, and checked all of our boxes, if we were willing to spend up to the max we were approved for (something like 1.2 or 1.3M IIRC) but at some point you draw a line.
(We do the same thing when searching Airbnb’s etc. Sure for $500 a night we could get a seriously amazing place but…. will we be just as happy spending $200? Then don’t even look at places higher than that.)
Cat
We set our max at “could comfortably carry the mortgage on one of our two incomes” and then proceeded accordingly. Although we didn’t get everything on our “wish list” we are in our first choice neighborhood.
Anonymous
Ah, sigh! Just note that all the single people out there are carrying mortgages based on one income. It’s not like they figured how much they could spend based on half their income. If you have the luxury of a husband and two incomes, it is ok to stretch a little and feel extended for a few years. The single people do it all the time.
Anon
A lot of questions:
1. Do you plan on having kids?
2. How much do you feel comfortable spending per month, including property taxes and insurance?
3. Would getting a cheaper house come with other costs, such as substantial repair costs, renovations (e.g., to gut a 1970s era kitchen), or a long commute?
4. How stable are your jobs? How easily could you find similar employment if you were laid off?
5. Is there a point at which houses get substantially nicer for not substantially more money? In my area, $225k gets you a 2 bed/1 bath, not great house, whereas $275k gets you 3 bed/2 bath new construction. While spending more money almost always means a nicer house (or car, or whatever), there is often a point at which spending a bit more gets you a lot more. Do your research.
Kelsey
Does anyone here for a favorite beef jerky or turkey jerky? I usually get people’s choice but am looking to branch out to other options.
Anonymous
If you’re willing to make the trip, check out your local farmers market. I get jerky from my local Amish market and it’s the best jerky I’ve ever had. Whole Foods occasionally has homemade jerky, but they haven’t had it consistently during the pandemic.
Anonymous
This may be unhelpful, but I get mine at a local market and it is wildly better and cheaper than packaged stuff. Have you looked for a source like a butcher or similar? Mine is an international farmer’s market.
Anon
When I am feeling burnt out/depressed I act differently–as is normal for most people, I assume. I procrastinate going to bed, which means I stay up late, which means my SO lies in bed alone reading for a while–to him, it looks like I’m avoiding spending time with him. I don’t want to eat, shower, do anything. So when he asks me what I want to do I have to either work really hard to figure out something that will be fun for him and tolerable for me. I have literally zero sex drive, so he’s also getting insecure that I don’t find him attractive, when in reality it’s got nothing to do with that (and he is attractive).
He feels like something is off. I’ve explained to him these things. He is still anxious/worried for our relationship, which I get but at the same time…how is anyone supposed to feel like they have room in a relationship to not be feeling so well, and go through rough times, when the worse you feel the more work you have to put into reassuring the other person that it’s not about them? I can totally get where SO is coming from, but simultaneously, this feels like a lot to be putting on the plate of someone who has said and is demonstrating that they are at their limit for taking on more responsibilities? Is it just me, or should SO be managing more of this on their own or am I being insensitive? Or is it a bit of both? Advice welcome, harsh or not.
Anon
Are you treating your depression? I think you at least have an obligation to do that, otherwise your SO is gonna justifiably get annoyed!
Anon
I have therapy on a biweekly basis. I make sure to get exercise in during my day, eat a good diet, and get good sleep. Most of my energy goes towards either directly managing depression or doing things that will prevent making my depression worse–like staying on top of to-do lists, keeping spaces clean, etc. To an extent, it is manageable.
At the same time, I have a family history of bipolar/mental health disorders. So I generally accept I will have highs and lows and make sure that I keep it from seeping into other people’s lives as much as possible. Obviously, not winning at that with my SO but I do try to be aware of it and mitigate it as much as possible.
Anonymous
What are you doing to manage your depression?
Anonymous
What do you mean by “managing more of this on their own”? Do you mean managing their own emotions about having a depressed spouse and her daily rejections without involving you? Or are there other responsibilities that you are noping out of?
Anonymous
My answer depends on how long this has been going on. Yes there must be space in a relationship to be imperfect. Sometimes you will be stressed and your partner will help lift you up or at least take care of the business of life momentarily. Emphasis on momentarily. Most people are not going to feel the insecurities you describe your SO experiencing after like a day or even a week or two of their partner being “off.” I suggest you be really honest with yourself about how long this has been going on, and then add like 30% to whatever time you come up with.
From your description, it sounds like this has been going on for weeks. It’s not ok to let your depression go untreated for weeks at a time. You both deserve better. This instinct of yours – to retreat until you feel better – is not serving you or your marriage. Everything you’ve written sounds really, really familiar; I totally get it. But you can’t be this withdrawn, wooden puppet version of yourself for more than a couple days at a time. If wishing on a star doesn’t make you a real girl again, you’ve got to seek professional help. Hugs and good luck.
Anon
Thank you, this is helpful and insightful. I’ve been in therapy for a long time but it may be time to have a conversation with my therapist to discuss changing approaches because this clearly isn’t working enough.
Anon
I get like this all the time. It’s improving with antidepressants and therapy. Something that helps me is doing mundane tasks that in struggling with together. Showering, brushing teeth, cooking, cleaning.
Anon
I just changed mine in the Chicago area – – I drove to a Walgreens near Midway for the first one and was hoping to a) get one faster than the 4 weeks, and b) get one closer to my house. I called the central Walgreens number and it was fast and easy to rebook for this Friday at a place 3 blocks from my house. There were a lot of options (this was for Pfizer).
Anin
Could you please share tips for treatment of scars after laparoscopy (or c-section, as they are similar)? Thanks
Anon
Skin Medica scar recovery gel is the recommendation from our OB and derm in my city. that was at least 3 years ago so there may be better products on the market.
Anin
Thank you