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See, these are more my style as far as statement shoes go — but again, it's just a matter of personal taste. I really like that these take a classic style and update them with some fun colors; I like them even more because for someone out there, the “natural sandy calf” will basically be a nude-for-me pump, making just that yellow pop. Zappos has them in three colors; Bloomingdale's and Piperlime also have a few colors in limited sizes, including a “natural”/electric orange combo that is quite nice. They're $225. Rachel Roy Ana Pointed Cap-Toe Pumps (L-4)Sales of note for 10.24.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – Friends of Ann Event, 30% off! Suits are included in the 30% off!
- Banana Republic Factory – 40-60% off everything, and redeem Stylecash!
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – Friends & Family event, 30% off sitewide.
- J.Crew Factory – 40% off everything
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Up to 30% off on new arrivals
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 40% off entire purchase, plus free shipping no minimum
- White House Black Market – Buy more, save more; buy 3+ get an extra 50% off
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
TCFKAG
If these were a wee bit shorter and a wee bit cheaper, I’d be all over them! I’m super into the whole Oxford trend of late. I do way prefer it to florals (but that is definitely a personal preference thing, I recognize). The black and peach version is pretty cool.
Diana Barry
With the heel, I’d look askance at these more than the floral ones! They look way too high.
TCFKAG
They’re not quite as high as I expected – 3 and 3/4 (still too high for me, but the picture looks higher.)
saacnmama
+100
TCFKAG
These are cheaper and lower heeled – though not quite as fun a color.
http://www1.bloomingdales.com/shop/product/ivanka-trump-pumps-illysa-pointed-toe-spectator?ID=687168&CategoryID=16961&LinkType=#fn=spp=29&LinkshareID=J84DHJLQkR4-IayuuEQ4z2fkeisOTydFNw&PartnerID=LINKSHARE&cm_mmc=LINKSHARE-_-n-_-n-_-n
Ru
Let me get a little busy – shoe color will soon not be a problem AT ALL.
Bonnie
Love these but don’t think I’ll ever get to wear heels this high again. Piperlime lists them as 4 inches.
Bonnie
These would be a perfect alternative for me if they were a bit cheaper: http://www.yoox.com/us/44484050RH/item?dept=women&tp=11227&utm_campaign=affiliazione_us&utm_content=10&utm_medium=affiliazione&utm_source=linkshare_us#cod10=44484050RH&sizeId=
How is this a skirt? http://www.yoox.com/us/35190927BR/item?dept=women#cod10=35190927BR&sizeId=
Susie
Oh wow…. I’m speechless about that “skirt.” Shocked & appalled y’all!
Anonymous
How is it $515.
saacnmama
Well, the text about it is correct: “no appliqués, no fastening, no pockets, unlined, rear slit, stretch, solid color, tube dress” Except for the “solid color” part.
NOLA
I always, in theory, love a look like this, but never can figure out what to wear them with. Like I just want every black and ivory shoe but then, in reality, don’t wear them. I talked myself out of the black and ivory version of a pair I have with this kind of detail and into the black on black and I’ve worn them like crazy. Even though I thought I desperately wanted the black and ivory.
SA
I thought you were talking about the “skirt”!!!
anonosaurus
I was hoping for some advice. I’m flying from the east coast to the west coast next week, along with my entire department, and I’ve just found out I’m pregnant (yay) and nauseous all the time (boo). Any tips for getting through the trip with out being green the whole time, and without having to tell my co-workers the news before I even tell my family/friends?
Anon
Drink a lot of water and get some ginger candy.
saacnmama
or ginger snaps, if they have a lot of ginger. And let them think the flight or a bug you caught on board is the cause of your misery.
Suzer
Bring bland snacks (crackers, pretzels) and eat frequently. For me, it was worst on an empty stomach. Can you try to sleep?
Nancy P
Ditto — carbs are your friend, consume them often, and whatever you do, don’t get hungry. I’ve also heard (but haven’t tried) that sour or sweet candy can help — like Jolly Ranchers.
Meg Murry
Seconding the don’t get hungry – nausea on an empty stomach is the worst, and when you are most likely to be sick after eating, IME. Take snackable carbs with you in your luggage and purse (pretzels, crackers, whatever sounds remotely appealing to you). Be sure to have some kind of snack or breakfast food in your hotel room – if you are traveling from East to West coast, you don’t want to wake up at 4 am feeling like its 7 am and you are starving for breakfast. And don’t forget its not just “morning” sickness – for me it was often “late afternoon into early evening” sickness or “I fell asleep as soon as I got home and now its 11 pm and the smell of dinner leftovers is making me nauseous” sickness.
OP
Good call on breakfast foods in the room, that will be a big help I’m sure. And it’s totally more than morning sickness, more like all the time sickness which is why I am worried.
Anne-on
If you want to do the OTC version of the recently approved anti-nausea drug, B6 and unisom together will help. If you already have an OB, see if they’ll prescribe zofran, it saved me during business travel while pregnant.
Otherwise, something starch-y, salty, or very sour all helped me with nausea as did eating small things very frequently. My doctors also said to eat whatever you craved, there were more than a few flights where I made a beeline to a fast food place for fries/chicken for the protein and salt fix my body needed. Good luck!
JJ
Word. Follow your cravings in that first trimester. It’s shameful how much fast food (fries and chicken tenders) I have eaten both times I’ve been pregnant. I normally could live without ever eating that stuff, but pregnant? I can’t get enough and sometimes it’s the only thing that actually tastes good (and stays down).
mama of 2
Same here – fast food fried chicken sandwiches normally don’t do anything for me, but while pregnant, they are like manna from heaven.
mascot
Seabands helped me in addition to the other suggestions.
TCFKAG
Oh – and if you ARE nauseated or sick on the flight, there are a million and one little white lies to tell that explain it. Motion sickness. Stomach bug. Something you ate. Whatever. No reason to say you’re pregnant. (As someone who experiences frequent nausea, I’ve used these simple, quick explanations a million times – no one ever questions them.)
OP
Thanks for these–I am so rarely nauseous that I couldn’t think of a reason why it might happen other than the reason I can’t get off my mind right now :).
Samantha
Yup. Food poisoning and acid reflux are a couple others.
hoola hoopa
Sea Bands. I tried them out of desperation for a long road trip and was surprised that they really did work. Not 100%, but definitely took the edge off. You wear them a bit up from your wrist, so you can hide them with long sleeves if you’re careful.
Unisom sleep tabs (not gel caps). It’s sold as a sleep aid but acts as an anti-nausea drug and has been tested to be safe in pregnant woman. I used them daily for most of my second pregnancy to battle pregnancy-induced insomnia and they *really* helped my nausea. Waking up nausea-free allows you to start the day with some food in your belly and it makes a huge difference. Take no more than half unless you can pass out for 12+ hours. Test drive them before your trip.
Ditto bland snacks and keeping something in your belly. Sour things worked better for me than hard candies, like grapefruit juice and granny smith apples.
Thankfully you can probably blame any illness on motion sickness and jet-lag. GL!
hoola hoopa
Oh, I also wore the sea bands daily after discovering them, even when I was just sitting at my desk all day. It really helped my morning sickness.
The ‘good’ thing is that people are generally inattentive to others. You’d be surprised by how many ‘obviously pregnant’ flags you can wave without people noticing. It may feel obvious to you, but to them you’re just someone who isn’t feeling well. And if they do put it together, they are generally in the know about staying hush-hush until you announce.
OP
I forget about other people’s obliviousness–but this was a great reminder. Hopefully we’ll all be too busy for anyone to notice my strange need for sour candies and fried chicken (which according to comments here, is not so strange!).
pregomama
So, I travel all the time for work. I found out I was pregnant ON a business trip because I figured I was either dying of the flu and some freak disease possibly tape worm or was pregnant. I felt hungover for 3 straight weeks (thanks, morning sickness). Carbs are your friend. Aisle seats are your friend. Spend $12 and get compression socks/tights (mild) for the flight just in case your feet swell up from all the carbs/salt/flight time (I’m now in my 2nd tri and my feet balloon up on flights). Stay hydrated. Sleep as much as possible (on the plane, in the taxi, get to bed as early as possible).
Get ginger ale on the plane. Pack mints (those worked better for me than ginger chews…), order lots of bacon egg & cheese :) or whatever your go-to-hangover meal was in college.
I never actually vomited during my first tri, but I know many do, so perhaps my food advice is not great for you. You can always say “i’m not feeling well” or the like if you really need to beg out of something. If you’re REALLY worried about the pregnancy secret getting out because you won’t be drinking, I did two things: (1) order a glass of wine and nurse it all night (my coworkers had NO IDEA it was the same glass- they were on glass 4-12, I was still not quite halfway through #1- get a side of water and keep refilling it). (2) order something yourself, directly from the bar, that looks like booze- eg. club soda with lime– and just keep asking the bartender for “another.” You can also beg nto feeling well.
Also, make sure to carry around a cup of something hot in a coffee mug i fyou’re typically a caffeine junkie. I switched between tea, water, and hot chocolate.
My boss knew I was pregnant not because I wasn’t drinking at company events, but because I kept yawning- after I disclosed, she said, “I figured…I’ve never seen you look anything other than 100% awake, and you looked EXHAUSTED [at our last meeting together]”
OP
Bacon egg and cheese was totally my hangover go to, but the smell of eggs is the worst right now. I also have managed to not vomit so far, and I’m really hoping that continues. I will dig out my compression socks from a trans-Atlantic flight a few years back–thanks for that! I haven’t swelled much yet, but I haven’t flown yet either!
OP
Thank you all, this was fantastic advice. I salute you with my vodka soda (hold the vodka)! :)
In House Lobbyist
I ate a lot of Pringles the first trimester to help with morning and all day sickness. And I finally broke down and got medicine from my dr and wondered why I waited so long. My dr told me the worst thing you can do is get dehydrated and she said eat whatever and drink caffeine if it helped.
Leslie
Every pregnancy is a little different. My first pregnancy, nothing would do but to stuff my face with white carbs. All day long.
My second pregnancy, everything was gross. So I didn’t eat so much.
If this is your first pregnancy, what I’m going to do is warn you about the emotions. It doesn’t happen to everyone, but I found that once in a while, my emotions would just get the best of me and I would break down and bawl (at things that normally would not have bugged me too much). My body liked to do this to me at inconvenient times, with the most inconvenient being in my boss’ office, when I was (secretly) 6 weeks pregnant. This is how I had to come clean early on, because the reason for the meltdown was so minor that I preferred he knew I was pregnant rather than think I was insane. :p
ALl this to say, watch out for random breakdowns. They’ll get you every time! Also, sipping coke helped for me. Not the best, but it did help. I also tried ginger pills, but they didn’t help that much.
SA
Citrus scented lotion! Or anything orange scented.
Anonymous
These kill me. I want them. So bad.
Still feel like a kid
Complete off-topic TJ – I could use some advice about navigating the parent/child relationship – specifically once the child (namely, me) reaches adulthood and begins to make decisions that the parents strongly disagree with. I’m 24 and have been generally independent for the past two years – I live with a SO/roommates, work full time, and mostly pay for myself (though my parents have contributed to occasional large expenses, such as appliances and law school application fees). I also have two younger siblings who are fully dependant on my parents, so they are still very much in the parent/child mindset even though I personally don’t live at home anymore.
I wrote in a few months ago about possibly deferring law school for a year to live abroad/travel, and my SO and I are leaning towards doing that (and everyone else – bosses, coworkers, friends – are very supportive). My family, however, is strongly opposed to the idea. I’ve never openly gone against my parents’ wishes about such a big decision before, and I am not sure what to do going forward.
Legally I may be an adult, but I don’t really feel like one, at least when it comes to my family. I guess I am looking for any stories from when you ladies experienced the shift in family dynamics with your own parents, and any advice for how to make it as painless as possible.
momentsofabsurdity
This is a tough road to navigate. I used to give my ex in college a lot of flak, because I felt like he was always asking his parents for permission rather than advice. In retrospect, I should have been more sensitive to the fact that everyone is on their own independence journey, and it’s not on me to impose my standards of independence on others.
That said – I think it is beneficial to start to establish boundaries with your parents. I think it’s the point where you stop asking, and start telling. I talk to my parents all the time about major life decisions – I listen to their input, I consider their thoughts, etc, because I think they are smart, awesome people who have good insight into the world and more life experience than I do. Even more than that, I know that they’re my fierce advocates, and they are always going to be focused on helping me find the right decision for myself.
Of course, sometimes we don’t agree. Sometimes, what my parents think is the right thing for me, I think is absolutely the wrong thing. In those situations, I’ve learned to listen (“Mom, I hear what you are saying about thinking an internship at Big Bank is the perfect next step to my career. Right now, because I think finance is maybe the boring-est-thing-of-all-the-borings, I’m sort of leaning away from it. In fact, I think I’ve pretty much decided on taking an job with Cool Tech Startup. It’s more risky but I think it’s more of a fit for me. Thanks so much for talking this through with me though.”
There will inevitably be some growing pains with this experience — but I think as long as you are clear that you hear their objections, you respect their opinions, but you have come to a different conclusion than them — the awkwardness of it all passes quickly.
momentsofabsurdity
That last sentence of the third paragraph should read:
In those situations, I’ve learned to listen and respond thoughtfully (“Mom, I hear what you are saying about thinking an internship at Big Bank is the perfect next step to my career. Right now, because I think finance is maybe the boring-est-thing-of-all-the-borings, I’m sort of leaning away from it. In fact, I think I’ve pretty much decided on taking an job with Cool Tech Startup. It’s more risky but I think it’s more of a fit for me. Thanks so much for talking this through with me though.”)
I still make the decisions that I think are best, but bringing them along on the journey of “why” helps.
Samantha
And if all else fails, tell them after its a done deal. Sometimes (very rarely) you have to go this route. Forgiveness, not permission, and all that.
Abby Lockhart
Perhaps when they express their concerns you can say, firmly, something like this: “Mom, Dad, I hear you and I completely understand your concerns. I had the same thoughts — that going to law school immediately is the safe path and gets my career started sooner. But I asked around — a lot, even to Internet strangers and others who are where I want to be when I get out of school — and nearly everyone I spoke to encouraged me to take this opportunity to explore the world. This trip is going to make me a more mature, worldly, knowledgeable student and lawyer. I can’t do this the other way around, I’ll just miss the opportunity if I go to law school first. I am convinced this is the right thing to do and the right time to do it. I’ve looked at this from all angles, including from a financial perspective. I’m making an informed decision, I feel good about it, and I’d really like you to respect it and support me in this.
It is going to take a big burst of courage to talk to your parents this way, for perhaps the first time, but it gets easier after that because you level the playing ground a bit after they get a glimpse of you as a whole, mature, independent adult. But I think explaining your thought process — whatever it is — will confirm to them you are making a considered, mature decision, not just taking a flight of fancy.
Anonymous
My 16 year old openly defies my wishes daily, they’ll get over it. LOL. Now for the serious answer. First, ask your paents what their concerns are. If they are worried about your safety etc. Acknowledge that, because as a parent you always worry about your kids safety, even if they are 50. Then do what you can to lessen their worries: let them know its a safe area, call them frequently, listen to their input on safety if they have it etc. On the other hand, if they are worried about you making a bad decision that will ruin your future because you are passing up an opportunity like law school to travel, then that is their issue and you can’t base your decision on that. The hardest thing as a parent is letting our kids make what we perceive are mistakes, but ultimately we have to let go and let our kids make their own choices, assuming they are not life threatening. I would recommend not asking your parents for any more money. Even if they are generous and don’t ask questions or attach strings to it, I would be unhappy if I lent money for law school etc. and then you lived abroad for a year. When its your own money, no one has a legitimate say in how you use it.
Good luck and enjoy your trip!
e geneous and
Anonymous
Sorry about the random last line! My phone is a pain for commenting.
Still feel like a kid
Thanks for the parent’s opinion!
Although money isn’t their primary reason for objecting, it is adding an additional awkward element. Ever since I was born my family (parents, grandparents, etc) saved a fairly substantial amount of money for my college education, which I ended up not really using as my tuition was free. That money is now earmarked for law school tuition, although isn’t nearly enough and I will still need loans. The SO and I plan to work temporarily while abroad, so hopefully that will offset some costs, but at least some funding will likely come from the education savings account.
On one hand, I feel bad that they intended the money to be used for my education and I would like to use some of it to travel. At the same time, I have been very careful to not touch the money (it isn’t in an education-specific account, so I could have blown it all at 18 had I wanted to). The way I see it, the same amount of money will still be invested in my education – either I go straight to school and spend it all, or I travel first and take on the difference in additional debt, which I will be responsible for paying back anyway. I do not want or expect any financial contribution towards my education beyond what my parents have already made (although my grandmother is trying to bribe me by offering to pay part of my tuition if I start school this fall :/). Again, money isn’t their main motivation for saying no, but it isn’t a point in my favor.
Anonymous
I feel for you, and think your plan is very reasonable.
HOWEVER, when you admitted that they have saved a tremendous amount of money for your schooling that they are still willing to give you for law school (such a rare and wonderful thing…) AND you now want to use some of that money for traveling for a year…. there is the problem. It is their right to say they do not want to be subsidizing a year abroad for you. You should pay for that yourself. It is unfair of you to use that money for “fun” if it is intended for schooling. It is their money…. not yours. As long as you are still under their thumb by accepting their money, they deserve to have some say in how it is spent.
That feels right to me.
Anonymous
Wait what? You want to spend other people’s money they gave you for school on travel? No wonder your parents disapprove! Could you sound more spoiled, childish, and entitled.
Still feel like a kid
The conversation got side-tracked into the money issue, but that really is the least of my parents’ issues with the trip. I earned some of the money in the account while working in high school and college, and I have other savings as well, but because my parents contributed I don’t feel that I can just use the money to go off and travel without their approval. They aren’t opposed to helping fund traveling per se, its just that they feel I should be starting law school RIGHT NOW since I’ve already “wasted” two years working and I’m not getting any younger.
My parents aren’t familiar with the legal field at all but they are used to being the authority figures, so I’m having trouble getting them to see that I have done my research and that “Oh, just travel during the summer when you’re in school” aren’t going to work.
Anon in NYC
I’ve struggled with this as well (also the oldest child). My advice is to stop asking for their permission. They’ll give you their opinion, because they’re your parents. But you’re an adult, you don’t need your mom and dad to tell you that it’s okay for you to do something that you 1) want to do, and 2) can pay for. And then when you tell them that you’re doing this thing that they disapprove of, just keep repeating “okay” and “I hear your point” when they launch into all the reasons why you shouldn’t do what it is you’re going to do. And then just tell them that you’re going to do it anyway, and if you mess it all up, then it’s your own fault.
Think about it this way: if you let your parents guilt you into staying home, doing the responsible thing (if you can call law school responsible — I’m a lawyer struggling to pay back >200k in student loans and semi-miserable in my biglaw job), and going to law school instead of taking one year of your life to travel and live abroad…. which are you going to regret more?
Brant
…ask long as you don’t expect your parents to fund any part of this year off. Looks like they’ve already ponied up for some stuff, like your law admission fees, and they may be counting down the days until you stop asking them for money and are totally independent. I’d add some language to that suggested above to include, “i appreciate how much you’ve always supported me, and I don’t expect any financial support from you during this gap year…”
FWIW, I severed financial ties as quickly as possible with my parents for exactly this reason. They paid for (most of) college, for which I will always be greatful, but two weeks after graduation, I bought a car, moved out of state, started my (low paying) job, got into, paid for and finished grad school, got married, bought a house, put DH through grad school… and whenever they start to question my life decisions, I calmly let them know that I”ve managed this much, I’m confident I’m not going to blow all my money.
Brant
Oh- I should add that my first move was when I was a college freshman, my mom called me up telling me I was spending too much time talking to my (long distance) boyfriend. That weekend, I got my own cell phone plan. It was more expensive, sure, but worth every penny (I got a second on campus job) not to have to have her looking over my shoulder.
AnonAZ
This is almost exactly my story too, except I cut all financial ties mid senior year of high school. I originally stayed on my parents cell phone plan (paying my portion of the bill), until my mom decided that I was “spending too much time on the phone” and just shut it off with no notice. So I just got my own plan, and it for the better. Money creates weird dynamics in relationships.
For OP, the savings seems a little different to me, since it was saved for undergrad, which she paid for via a scholarship. I really hate the idea of “we saved this money for you, here ya go but we want to control everything you do because you’re using “our money.” Either you gave it to me, or you didn’t. It sounds like OP has been responsible with her money so far. My bar trip was as close as I got to traveling for any length of time. I think if she really wants to do it, go for it.
Still feel like a kid
I don’t ask my parents for money, but they’re still used to supporting us kids (they pay for everything still for my college-aged sister, including her Starbucks habit), so when they offered to pay for app fees I accepted.
As I mentioned to Anonymous above, I was hoping to fund a portion of the trip with a portion of my college fund (plus money I am saving now, plus working abroad), since undergrad tuition ended up being free so the fund is largely intact. I certainly wouldn’t ask for any more money, either for traveling or law school. My parents have done more than enough, and I am very thankful for that. But in terms of investing for my future – I see living abroad and traveling extensively as much more meaningful than knocking a few thousand dollars off what is going to be six figures of law school debt anyway.
Anon in NYC
Do they have to give you the money? As in, it’s not in your account and it’s not up to you how to spend it? That’s a different story, in my mind.
It’s your parents prerogative to save money and give it to you for a specific purpose (be it college tuition, a wedding, house down payment, etc.). Simply because they saved it and want to spend it on you doesn’t mean that you get the money for whatever you want.
If that’s the case, I would forgo asking your parents for money and start aggressively saving for a year abroad. Cut out cable, dinners out, see if you can lower some of your bills, whatever. I still think that you should go abroad if that’s what you want to do, and I don’t think your parents need to approve, but I also think you need to fund it on your own.
Anonymous
Anon mom from above here. I agree 100% with anon in NYC, your parents can choose whether or not to give you the money depending on what you will use it for. Unless you already have the money, then you need to fund this trip on your own or not go. Also, it is not the same amount of money to pay for school up front or to take out student loans. Student loans have interest, and depending on how high they are can trap you in a job that you hate. And there is no guarentee that you will never need to borrow money in the future. Sometimes life takes unexpected bad turns and you wind up in circumstances you never expected.
Mountain Girl
Another mom here – but I have to say that I agree with Anon Mom. If your parents saved the money and earmarked it for your education they have have every right to choose how and if they distribute it to you for some other purpose. It may also complicate things when you take the SO into account. While they may have some hesitation partially funding this year abroad for you the idea of funding a year abroad for somebody else as well (your SO) may be the dealbreaker. You need to be able to make this cash flow on your own or not go.
College loans are like a ball and chain. Don’t get into the mindset that its no big deal to take out loans. This year could trap you in a job or career you don’t love and could have long term implications for lots of things – marriage, children, buying a house, etc.
Cora
I’m not a mom, but I was a child in a similar situation to you. My parents saved money to pay for my college tuition, but I ended up going to college on a full-ride merit scholarship. When I decided to go to law school, they offered to contribute a certain amount towards tuition (roughly the same amount they had spent sending my brother and sister to college), which was not by any means the whole amount I needed for law school (since both my brother and sister also had sizable scholarships), but was of course very helpful.
With that background, I still basically agree 100% with this line of comments from various moms. I think if you are accepting money from your parents, they do get a say in what is done with the money, and there is nothing wrong with them disagreeing with spending it on something other than higher education. I totally get that it is frustrating on your end, but I think that’s the nature of being financially entangled with your parents. As much as I appreciated my parents financial support in law school, I think removing the financial component after I graduated helped our relationship, because (at least for me) I felt like it was hard for the relationship to fully mature when I was still relying on them for my material wellbeing, even though it was only partially.
I also agree that there is a huge difference between paying for school up front and taking out loans. I honestly was incredibly naive about the burden of student loans (and debt in general) when I went to law school since I didn’t have undergrad loans and had never even carried a balance on my credit card. Even with a partial scholarship, my parents’ help, and a good-paying job out of law school, I still had a significant amount of law school debt and it was a huge burden when I discovered that I truly hated my first job as a lawyer. I think many, many law grads end up in similar situations, and obviously none of them thought that would be the result going in. So, I think caution on that front is a good thing.
Anonymous
I’m a mom and a daughter. When I was in a really bad situation with my son & had used up all my savings not working and dealing with his thing for 6 months, my parents “offered” to help us out, with some very serious strings attached. It’s been a few years, I still am in a hole compared to where I would have been had I been able to use *much less* of their money how I wanted to, and not a day goes by that I don’t try to figure out how I could have done things differently.
Parents do not always know best!
Anonymous
OP, stop mixing money you earn with money they’ve given you. That’s the easiest way to not be under their control, as long as you aren’t in an awful situation and really needing the $$
Cb
I struggle with this as well, my parents and I are super close and I’m an only which makes it even more difficult. I guess the best way to do this is limiting opportunities for input and presenting decisions as ‘exciting news I have to tell you’ rather than ‘here is what I am considering’.
Cb
Also, grain of salt: I am currently sitting at my parents’ dining room table working after my mom made me lunch (I’m visiting for the week and taking advantage of parental pampering)
hoola hoopa
Do your own thing while respecting their assessment and concern. You’re 24, self-reliant. It’s time. But you need to handle this as an adult; no adolescent emotional outbursts, saying or doing stupid things, or immature ultimatums. As a parent, I can sympathize with their knee-jerk response. Put yourself in their shoes when you address them. “Mom, Dad, I value and appreciate your concern and thoughts regarding my decision. I have taken them into consideration, but have ultimately decided to continue with taking a leave of absence to travel. I will always love you as my parents, but I am an adult now and this is my decision to make.”
Ideally, you’d address their specific concerns, be it safety (we’re reconsidering our lodging to be safer), timing (I’ll be sure to be home for the holidays / in time to visit before restarting school), money (we’ve researched costs and planned out a budget – would you like to see it?), etc.
I was the younger sibling who observed my oldest sibling struggle with our parents’ responses to his decisions that they did not support and I will say that the bulk of their reaction (although not opinion) was driven by the fact that they saw him as the role model for his younger siblings. It’s not fair, but life’s not fair, and I mention it because you may want to consider than in your handling of the situation. Addressing their concerns (your younger siblings may be lead to think ditching school to travel at 18 sounds like a great idea) rather than your own frustrations (parents judging your decision and giving push back) can be a more direct and efficient way to manage the situation.
ouch
It’s not going to be painless. Eventually, you are going to do something that upsets your parents and they won’t come around. You have to say “I know this upsets you, but this is my plan.” They will be upset. Hopefully they will get over it. Mine did, and although we still have this struggle from time to time, they have less and less power and more and more understanding of my motives each time it happens.
Short answer: if your parents are anything like mine, you’re going to have to make them mad eventually. The longer you wait the worse it is. Do it now.
$$ buys say
One other thing to consider is that your parents might feel like they have a say in things that they’ve contributed towards, which is not completely unreasonable in my book. You say that they paid for at least part of your law school application fees and they might have felt like they were buying in (quite literally) to a plan for your life. While some parents use money to control their children really overtly, this may a much more subtle case of this happening.
I think its just cleaner to not get financial help from your parents on things that you may not see eye to eye on. Ideally, you wouldn’t get financial help from them at all so then you can politely disregard their opinions all together.
I think the parent/child relationship is a lot harder to change when there still is a financial dependence.
lawsuited
Perhaps your parents are concerned that you’re choosing a travelling adventure with SO rather than your career?
When I got engaged the summer before law school, my parents were intially apprehensive(although they really like DH and are supportive of our marriage) because they thought I might get married and give up on my career plans. It would never, ever have occured to me to give up on law school for DH, but I guess parents of young women sometimes worry about such things.
Perhaps you can reassure them that spending a year travelling with SO does not mean you are giving up on law school? (Although, really, if you parents think law school is your route to career happiness or even stability, they may be mistaken.)
Anonymous
This is an interesting thread for me. I’m much older than the OP–nearly twice as old. I still have the same problem with my parents. I would like to be able to ask their advice on things, but they are totally unable to give it. They are very uncomfortable discussing options, and when they do decide that they think something is right, they are unable to explain why they think that or to accept that I will weigh it against other possibilities. In my case, the fact that I’m not married also comes into play. I first noticed that when my sister was married and I was not, then had it confirmed when I got married and they considered me an adult. Now that I’m divorced, they again see no reason to hear anything I say, even about my own life.
I’ve tried the approaches most have suggested here, but this thread has me thinking I should try again.
Anonymous
Regular poster going anon for this one.
I recently was promoted to a senior position within my department and seeking advice on how to deal with negative feelings from coworkers.
My field was formerly dominated by men but is now predominantly female among those under ~45 – so there is a definite male old guard that’s looking around and wondering what happened. For the most part, the dynamic is fine, but my promotion has caused a stir because I was promoted above some of the longer-tenure, older, male members of the department. It’s entirely related to job performance, but of course that’s not how they see it. They are peeved. So far, it’s all directed at our manager, but it’s making me feel awkward.
To be clear, I have no insecurities about receiving the promotion. It was well deserved and a long time coming. I’m feeling uncomfortable with being involved in the newest ‘issue’ in the department, although the problem is not me but the poor management of the promotion by my boss and the poor reception from some frustrated coworkers.
I’m staying out of the fray and letting the office rants work their way through the life cycle. I don’t currently oversee any of the annoyed parties, thankfully. I am sincerely bothered by the fact that they can’t seem to wrap their heads around the idea that I actually know what I’m doing. (This was an issue before the promotion, when we were equals but they, while nice on a personal level, very clearly devalued my professional knowledge and capabilities.)
I don’t have a question per se. I’m mainly looking for any “I’ve been there” stories, words of wisdom, anecdotes…
Godzilla
Congratulations on your well-earned promotion. Now, watch your back. Seriously. Don’t be paranoid but be prepared. That trouble is going to find its way to you. Since you are in a higher position now, are there management type courses you’re eligible for? Whether your company offers them or from an outside seminar or even books, be ready to manage difficult employees.
ss
Congratulations on the promotion. 2 thoughts on stuff to look out for
: Make sure to build your own relationships with key stakeholders beyond your boss and your immediate department, so that you aren’t relying only on the boss to disagree with the doubters. This means clients obviously, but also managers at other departments, competitors, vendors and so on – to be effective, you will need your own cheer-leaders among these folks. Be aware that many of these folks will have pre-existing relationships with the longer-tenured members of your department – you don’t want their impressions of you to be coloured by the negative feelings of their long-time contacts.
: Don’t dismiss the value of tenure and having been through a few business cycles – there is a tonne of learning and seasoning acquired this way. I had much more sympathy with my older colleagues after I had been round the block a few times, and only wish I had been able to avoid the unintended but obnoxious and self-righteous behaviour from my earlier days. To the extent that this is hard to do, perhaps at least be conscious of the dangers of slotting people into over-simplistic tribes (“I’m with the young women and we’re up against you, the old guard) instead of giving your relationships enough time that you can assess merit objectively and form useful professional relationships across the ‘tribal’ divide.
DAR
Interesting pick – too high for me but I can see them working with some summer suits or dress/jacket combo.
Anon
I’m a regular poster but Anon for this, hoping for some advice/wisdom from the hive.
I started at a mid-sized law firm about two months ago as a first year associate and I’m having some trouble adjusting. I have almost no work to speak of (as in, it’s a busy day for me if I get four billable hours in) and of the work I do have I feel like 1/3 of it is me being useful to the client, 1/3 is me making stupid mistakes, and 1/3 is me being treated like I’m stupid for not knowing something I had absolutely no way of knowing. I’m generally a really conscientious person, I don’t normally make stupid mistakes, and so each mistake I make I get more and more upset at myself and make more mistakes. I thought these proportions would change as I got more used to the job, but they really haven’t. I have no idea if it’s normal to feel like this, or if it’s just that I’m not good at this.
The main thing that’s killing me, though, is how incredibly lonely I am. I get that people are busy, but only a few people will actually voluntarily initiate conversation with me, even the most basic “how are you doing today” type conversation. To give you an idea of how things are, one of my co-workers is actively pretending I don’t exist (and one of the few co-workers who will talk to me has confirmed that this is in fact what’s happening). At first I tried to get to know people by participating in breakroom conversations and such, but as time has gone on I’ve felt less and less welcome to participate, and now if I have to eat in the breakroom I do it silently. Noone’s actively done anything mean or rude, there’s just a general vibe of not-welcomeness that disappears if the partners are eating lunch with us. I’d think it was just my imagination, but the other new people have made comments that make me think they’re experiencing the same thing.
I don’t know, this all sounds so stupid and childish when I type it out, but it isn’t fun, and I’m hoping people will have some advice for what I can do to make things better.
Also anon
You just put into words exactly how I feel at my first job (been there almost a year). I haven’t been able to explain it this well but you hit the nail on the head. I completely agree with the feeling of isolation. I feel like my coworkers are just hoping I’ll go away. Also ditto that the behavior disappears when a partner’s around. I apologize for not being very helpful, but wanted to let you know this isn’t just you.
A
I feel you on this… (this was me a year ago).
The loneliness… I don’t know if you have a good network in your city & online, but my small firm is also not a community in that people eat lunch together, etc. so I rely a lot more on my non-work network (who happen to be law school and college classmates, some of whom live in the same city and some who don’t). I try to arrange lunches with buddies who work near to me and talk to other friends online as “breaks.” I remain friendly with the people at work who are receptive to such as I can only control myself, not their un/willingness to interact with others.
On the work end, I’m kind of in the same boat and totally worried…
anonanon
That doesn’t sound stupid or childish at all. What a terrible experience. I hope you get some good advice from others who have worked at law firms. It sounds like an oppressive environment, but see what you can do to keep your attitude as positive as possible, even if it means playing mental games with yourself or making an effort to meet your best friend for happy hour to vent about it. I think you have to find some way to reward yourself and boost yourself up so that you don’t crumble under the stress and pressure. What has boosted you during tough times in the past? Turn towards those things. Try your best not to take other people’s cold behavior personally. That will only make it more difficult for you.
hoola hoopa
I’ve worked in environments like that. While I can’t offer any advice (I quit after 6-9 mo), I can offer great sympathy. It’s immature of your coworkers to behave like that – and it is, in fact, a very difficult situation to manage day in and day out. Don’t feel badly about it affecting you. I’m sorry.
Granola
Reading your post was a good reminder that I should check in with our first years a bit more and not be so preoccupied with my own work. I remember how isolated I was feeling in the beginning.
Darby
When I was a new associate, hanging out with the other first years saved me and they are my best friends still over a decade later in all different places. We did a weekly drinks night, you might want to organize something like that.
Eleanor
I think, from my own experience and that of my friends from law school, that the way you feel about your work product is completely normal. I’ve been at my firm for just over a year and a half (graduated 2011), and it’s only recently that I’ve felt like the stupid mistakes have really died off. They were decreasing slowly before this, but it’s taken a long time for me to feel like I kind of know what I’m doing, at least in my small area of law. It is really difficult to transition from being a good, conscientious student and worker to feeling like a person who makes dumb mistakes and doesn’t earn or have the respect of others. All I can say is you are not alone, and that it will pass. Just keep trying to be careful.
About the unfriendly co-workers, no advice. They sound quite rude and unkind, and I’m sorry you have to deal with that.
Anon
Thank you everyone for your commiseration, although I’m sorry to hear that so many people are going through the same thing. I am going to try and rely on my network of friends, and to get to know better those few co-workers who are friendly.
And I’m glad to hear that how I feel about my work product is normal!
saacnmama
What a catch-22! You know the best way to get noticed is to do kick-@ss work, but it is so hard to do your best when you’re struggling! I hope you can get to know those friendly co-workers a little better, and that your support network outside work stays strong. Good luck!
anon in the same boat
This is my life. Everyday. And has been for the past ~6 months of working. While I have no advice, just know that you aren’t alone. I keep telling myself that it’s just an adjustment issue, but that becomes harder and harder with the passage of time.
My solution recently has been to become more active and involved outside of the office and to continue to do stellar work on the (few) projects that come my way. I am also actively going to lunch and coffee with people outside of my practice group just to be able to socialize a bit. It helps.
So sorry that you’re also going through this. But to fellow posters–is this typical? does it get better?
Jules Law
Ladies, I had a tailoring triumph today. Bought two tops from BR at a deep discount (paid about $20 for each). Bought them in a size M which gave me enough room around the leftover baby tummy but were too big in the chest. Had them taken in under the arms for $5 each and now have two perfectly fitting layering tops that only cost me about $25 each (down from about $60 each) that don’t pull across the tummy or gape under the arms. Feeling very proud of myself.
Bex
I hate talking on the phone, almost more than anything in the world. It’s not a big deal in my personal life because I just gchat or email or use Facebook (but I don’t really mind talking on the phone with people I know personally, if I have to).
But at work, I usually have lists of people to call back, just sitting there on my desk, mocking me. I can’t even say why I hate it, it just makes me so nervous.
Has anyone else worked through this? I will admit to emailing back someone who has left me a voicemail message though I know very well that’s crazybananas.
Equity's Darling
No solution, but I’m the same way. I hate picking up the phone, even though it’s sometimes the easiest solution. I’ve just been forcing myself to do it more frequently, which has made it a little easier, though no more enjoyable.
TO Lawyer
I don’t mind the phone normally but for some reason, I avoid it like the plague when it comes to work. Which isn’t a useful technique FYI. I bribe myself to get through my to-call lists. aka I can browse the net or have a chocolate after I make 3-4 phone calls. It tends to work for me. I think it’s just one of those things you have to make yourself do.
hoola hoopa
What has worked for me:
— Return the call as soon as you can. Less time to build anxiety, removes the ‘I waited to long’ anxiety, and simply gets it over with already.
— Type up what you want to say and keep it on screen during the call. I also usually write up a message, in case I go to voicemail. I usually don’t need it, but it really helps me knowing it’s there – and really helps if I do need it!
I started my professional life back when email was young and phone was still the predominate method of communication, but I still had anxiety about returning phone calls. Even today with email, I do consider it an important professional skill and do judge younger employees who grew up online and seem uncomfortable with phones. Email is great, but phones have a place and serve a useful purpose. Email may always be your preferred method, but get comfortable on a phone.
Anonymous
I email back. No shame.
Backgrounder
My personal “favorite”…cold calls…*ugh*
BB
Ugh. Just seeing the words gives me an anxiety attack! I’m not even that introverted. I love public speaking, but something about cold calls is just awful.
Sydney Bristow
At my first post-college job we were supposed to start making cold calls to our customers inviting them to training events we were hosting. All the salespeople and I were supposed to make these calls and I hated every single moment of the 1 call I made and wound up having a panic attack. Luckily my boss thought I was awesome at everything else I did and was a major advocate for me in general that he let me off the hook and didn’t make me continue making the calls.
I hate hate hate making calls to anyone other than really close friends and family and don’t even make those very often.
Parfait
No real advice, just a “me too.” I hate the phone with a pure blue flame of loathing. I’m just glad I live in an era where email is widely used.
AG
You’re likely an introvert.
Ellie
I have to admit I feel the same. I often check if it was OK when I emailed back, I prefer the eMail.
layered bob
haaaaaaate the phone. hate. my personal voicemail message says “I don’t check my voice mail. Text or email.” If I could do that for work too, I would. I email as much as possible. I will say, it gets easier the more I do it…
East Coast Anon
I can relate. Here’s an article from Psychology Today about the introvert’s* aversion to the phone:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-introverts-corner/201002/dont-call-us-we-ll-call-well-no-actually-we-probably-won-t
*for those who ientify themselves as such
Equity's Darling
This is so accurate. I usually keep myself occupied with Tetris while I talk to my parents, and when the phone rings, I swear, my heart drops into my stomach every single time (and I rarely answer…which is weird, because I hate calling back.. But I guess I can at least try to call back at a convenient time for me…ugh, phones).
Bex
Me too — I have to force my hand to pick up the phone when it rings. I remind myself that it’s 1000x worse to have to return a missed call than to just answer it but ugh.
Meg Murry
This is me too. I hate making calls, even for basic things like making a dentist appointment. I will admit to playing voicemqil tag with people, calling when I expect them to be out or calling their voicemail from within voicemail. But sometimes phone is more effectient when you need to have a back & forth conversation. For me, it helps to write bullet points/notes before I make a call, or even pre-rehearse the conversation. I will say that the more you just make yourself do it, the easier it gets, and the less time you spend on the awkward “sorry it took so long for me to get back to you ” intro stumbling.
Messy Office
My office is a disaster and has been for months. I just switched to a litigation assignment (I’m an attorney), and keeping track of correspondence and potential evidence is very important….and I’m completely inundated with paper.
I adore my assistant, but she is an organizational disaster herself. Our file room is a mess, and the lead partner keeps criticizing me because I haven’t seen important documents buried in the unlabled boxes (there are four to six different cases intermingled in the file room, sometimes in the same box, and all pre-date my arrival by several years).
Any strategies for how to either motivate myself to clean up, or stay organized on an ongoing basis? Books, seminars, methods?
TIA!
Ellen
You must, EVERY DAY, put thing’s away that you do NOT need. I have Lynn, but she works for the manageing partner, not me, so she does NOT like to do anything for me, even get me coffee from the pantry! So I have to BE VERY ORGANIZED, and I am! (Yay for me!)
The manageing partner love’s that I am so Organized, b/c I come into his office and STRAITEN OUT his desk. Some times he has food on his desk that is OLD, so I just throw it out. I tell him if he eat’s old food, he will get diarreeah, and we do NOT want him runneing to the toilet just to find that FRANK is sitteing in there and we do NOT want him haveing an accident in his pant’s! FOOEY on that! (He agree’s b/c he has had accident’s like that before! DOUBEL FOOEY, and he has had to go home early b/c he did NOT have a change of Pant’s and UNDERPANT’s! TRIPEL FOOEY!)
Philip called again today, but I was not abel to call back b/c I had to be in court. It is SO dificult to read corporete on an Iphone. There should be an appp that make’s it easier to read but I do NOT have one.
Does any one in the HIVE read corporete on an Iphone like me when they are in court?
I will call Philip back b/c my Dad says to go for it while it is still HOT. I do NOT know what he is refering to. I hope he is NOT refering to Philip. I have NOT even met him yet, and can NOT want to marry him, YET.
Anon
I think you just need to set aside an afternoon, Saturday, etc. and just get everything organized. Once that is done it will be much easier to maintain. I always file things the day they come in. If I can’t do it as soon as I receive it, then it is at least done by the end of the day. I want to know that everything is always easy to find.
Also, the fear of sanction from the court, or a bar disciplinary complaint from a client due to lost evidence, missed court appearance, etc. would be enough to motivate me to get a handle on things!
been there
I came to my current job about halfway through some very messy, very long-term litigation. The amount of paper is astounding and I’ve never been the most organized person. My biggest problem is that I try to get everything organized perfectly immediately, then quit early on because I’ve made things too complicated. I also let myself get too frustrated over things that weren’t my problem/my job to fix (messy file rooms, counterintuitive filing systems). I took control of my immediate universe and sorted papers in broad categories (by case, issue, etc) on my desk. Everything I do for an individual research project/case/issue has its place and I must file it at the end of the day. The ease of finding things again has been worth it enough for me.
Meg Murry
I think you need to approach this as 2 parts – how do you stay organized going forward, and how do you deal with the mess you were left with. I would pull your assistant in and ask her to make a plan with you – after all, if she’s going to be the one actually doing a lot of the paper filing (and electronic as well?) you come up with a system that works for the two of you. Does your firm have some kind of standard policy for document organization, or is it up to each person to come up with their own? If there is a standard policy, start there. Do you tend to use binders, file folder, hole punched file folders, etc? At this point it sounds like anything is better than jumbled boxes of papers, so pick a system and use it going forward. Also, I’d suggest blocking a small time on your calendar every day for filing, and then a larger time once a week to do some filing double checking (and checking up with your assistant).
As for the stuff in the file room that is mixed together, you could tackle it one of two ways. 1) Do a macro sort of each box just to separate each case from each other, then later go back and organize each case. 2) Organize each document you come across in the correct place as you go. I would be more inclined to start with #1, as then even if you have to dig through a box/file etc its only one box, not ALL the boxes.
My old boss (not a lawyer) used a system where she assigned every document that came across her desk a sequential number, and she filed all the documents by that number. Then she kept a master database with the document numbers, project name, document name, date on the document (if there was one), date she received it, and category. She used it in her personal life as well, for filing things like owners manuals, etc. And she kept multiple backups of the database, of course. It was far more involved than I personally could commit to, but with a few clicks and searches she could put her hands on any document she needed within minutes. I think it was something like this database, although she made it herself or found it for free, it wasn’t this exact database. http://www.accesstogo.org.uk/Collections_Database.html
Frugal doc
FYI
Costco bargain for summer…. Women’s T-shirts. 100% Pima cotton, good weight. Short sleeved, v-neck, nice seams. Good colors. Runs slightly big, long – so nice to tuck. My nicest t-shirts…… <$10 each.
I will buy every color.
May be too low neckline for work – check them out.
hoola hoopa
Kirkland brand?
Frugal doc
Yes.
Anonymous
on it! I bought a couple of great pencil skirts from CostCo. Ellen Tracy, $20, very comfortable, and looks great.
frugal doc..
I got one of these too! Ponte knit skirt… around $17 at my local Costco. Amazing price…. They run a little big for me, as they have Small but no X-S and I am built like a 12 year old boy… But for a basic black cheap washable basic to layer appropriately… it works.
I’ve also had good luck with their Women’s Kirkland brand button down shirts, 3/4 sleeved, iron-free. Great colors, nice weight, nice seams. Again, they run big, but very good quality for the price. About $18.
Muddy Buddy
I’m a second-year atty and have been feeling generally terrible about myself at work. I’ve dropped the ball on a few (fairly minor) things over the last few weeks. Now I feel like I can’t do anything right. The slightest correction makes me feel almost like I’m going to cry and like I’m losing points from partners that I respect and loving working with. Surely some of you have overcome these struggles? Tips?
Me
I think posting again tomorrow morning might get you more responses.
I’ll be honest – it sounds from this admittedly very small amount of information that you might be having some situational depression / anxiety.
If you think this is off-base, then I’d say to suck it up and go talk to a partner you trust. Tell them you feel like you’re dropping the ball on some things, you’ve had a little trouble on certain assignments, and that you are working hard to address the issue. I’d even ask if this partner has any ideas about how to avoid the mistakes. You’ll probably gain points back by (1) owning the problem, which shows maturity and self-awareness; (2) being bold enough to address it yourself and not make the partner bring it up; (3) ask for suggestions; and (4) following through by improving.
You’ll be fine, everyone makes mistakes. The manner in which you deal with them is the most important.
cbackson
I’m a senior associate, and I spend a lot of time supervising juniors. I call this the “f*ckup shame spiral.” You mess up a couple of things, and then you get so nervous that you keep making mistakes, and every mistake that you make seems SUPER SIGNIFICANT because you’re totally aware of it.
The only solution is to break yourself out of the cycle of “OMG, I’m such a f*ckup” that you’re got going on. If you can reduce your workload temporarily, do it. Even better, if you can take a weekend totally without working, do so – clear your head, give yourself some space, and come back to work without the negative, self-reinforcing “I cant’t do anything right” feeling.
Anon
I’ve dealt with this myself recently, except I also made a fairly significant mistake.
First, you need a perspective check. Is your self-worth becoming too dependent on your job performance? On approval from the partners (even if they’re awesome)? Even if (if) you haven’t done your best work, who are the partners to determine your worth?
Second, try to regain some of your confidence. Focus on your posture and your breath. Apologize only once, if at all, for any single mistake. Treat any future discussion of your mistakes as learning opportunities, and frame that back to your superiors in the way that you discuss them. Pretend that you’re an actor playing the role of an excellent, confident associate. (This might not apply if you really made a big mistake, but if your mistakes are minor, there is no need to dwell on them.)
Ellie
I only saw recently that Ann Taylor offers international shipping too and they have some stuff I’m really interested in.
Problem is, I’m European, and I’m not too familiar with their sizing. I’m a solid US 2 (= 32 here) in most European brands, and from Ann Taylor’s sizing chart in their online shop, it seems 0P is the smallest size that I could wear. However I’ve read much about vanity sizing … how true are their values in the size chart? For reference, I’m 5’2 at 90 lbs.
hoola hoopa
I suspect it depends on your shape. I like AT because I have a very full, curvy figure even when relatively thin and the clothes fit me well. I’m 5’2″ with narrow shoulders, small rib cage, large bust (32E/F), wide hips, full bottom/thighs. At 130 lbs, I wear a 6P in Julie/curvy pants and a S in tops and dresses with skirt ease, but the size chart puts me at at 10. I wear a 4P/XS when I’m at ~120 lbs.
I do hear women with slender, straight figures say that they have to size down at AT. Hopefully someone else can help you there if that’s your figure.
Ellie
Thank you! I guess I’m more on the slender, straight side … Ann Taylor’s website does have a very detailed size chart for bust, sleeves and waist, and if they are accurate to their clothing’s fit, then I’m a US 0P or 2P in Ann Taylor as well. However, reading so much about vanity sizing on the net, I’ve wondered whether I should size down. According to the size chart, 00P would neither fit my chest nor my waist.
AP
Hm, I’d say proceed with caution. I’m 5’3 and not curvy — 33-26-33 ish and 30D, and AT is usually too curvy for me in the hips, and sometimes not generous enough in the bust. For example, I returned a blouse in 0P that absolutely did not fit my bust but have another blouse in oP that is a bit loose everywhere but definitely too big in the waist. The suit jackets I have or have tried fit just so in upper arm circumference and bust but are rather boxy and roomy at the waist on me.
In sum, I stopped buying AT online and will only buy something I can try on in the store first.
AP
oh, and I’m 110 lbs. So you’d likely be an 00P.
Kate
I’m 5’1 and 100 lbs with an hourglass figure (32DD chest and wide hips) and I wear either a 0P or a 2P at Ann Taylor. I can fit into most Ann Taylor clothes in 0P but sometimes have to size up to a 2P to fit my hips or chest. So you would probably be a 00P since you’re around the same height and ten pounds lighter.
Ellie
Thank you, both of you, Kate and AP. Very appreciated! I prefer trying them on before I buy them, too, however, there is no AT store anywhere near where I live because the brand isn’t even active in where I live, so no store carries their stuff. And if they did, I’m sure sizing would stop at US 2 either, because this is the smallest size stores in my country carry. I’ve never seen anything below that here … which adds to my frustration, because most work appropriate clothing I could buy here don’t fit me properly. So ordering online seems to be my only wa.
Ellie
Thank you, both of you, Kate and AP. Very appreciated! I prefer trying them on before I buy them, too, however, there is no AT store anywhere near where I live because the brand isn’t even active in where I live, so no store carries their stuff. And if they did, I’m sure sizing would stop at US 2 either, because this is the smallest size stores in my country carry. I’ve never seen anything below that here … which adds to my frustration, because most work appropriate clothing I could buy here don’t fit me properly. So ordering online seems to be my only way.
Ellie
Sorry for doublepost! I got database all over the time and surely I’ve hit the button once too much. Aargh
Leina
I’m an Italian 40/Euro 36 and I have a couple things from AT that are a 2, if that helps. I’d say size down. And yay I didn’t know they did international shipping!
Skirt Chaser
I was looking up races in my city, because … well, I feel like I should do one this summer. And there’s one in May, called the “Skirt Chaser”. Women, wearing skirts, start at 6pm, the men follow 5 minutes later, and they encourage you to wear a “single” sticker, if you’re “hoping to get lucky” at the after party, which includes dating games and beer.
I hate that they’ve turned a 5k into a meat market, and that the men are chasing the women who, of course, are wearing skirts. I don’t love the objectification, and the reduction to us being “prey”. And instead of focusing on enjoying my race, instead I’d have to focus on looking hot.
Yet at the same time- why not? There’s no reason not to date another runner, at least you’d have something in common. And, it’s all in good fun. Right? Or am I wrong?
The timing doesn’t work for me, but my conflicted feelings remain. I guess it’s also a blessing, because I don’t like running in a skirts, it’s too flouncy, even with shorts underneath.
Veronique
Ugh, I echo your icky feelings about this. The whole women in skirts, men literally chasing them down premise feels really regressive. There’s a right way to do 5-k as dating event (maybe match can make that one of their events) and this definitely isn’t it.
Susie
I’ve heard of this race, and if I was single and near the location I would do it. All in good fun! I do have a running skirt (w/ built in shorts), I don’t normally run in it but that’s probably what I’d wear to this event. Also, I’d settle for looking cute or decent, not hot.
ABC
I actually think that sounds pretty hilarious!
Anon
Any suggestions on how to address a situation with a coworker where he consistently interrupts/talks over you/chimes in while you’re speaking?
This is a genuinely nice guy who I work closely with, but I think he is somewhat threatened with how well I’m doing and has taken to interrupting me/talking over me/finishing my sentences, particularly when someone outside our group asks me questions. I find it rude and undermining, to be honest.
I’ve noticed that it’s getting worse and think that I need to say something to him, but I’m not sure how to phrase it. I work closely with him so I do have to preserve our working relationship.
Any thoughts on how to have this conversation are much appreciated.
hoola hoopa
If you would like to avoid a one-to-one about it, try saying “Again, [what you were saying].” At the very least, the person with whom you’re speaking gets your entire thought. Interrupting coworker will likely pick up that he’s (a) being unintentionally obnoxious or (b) being ineffective at undermining you. If he doesn’t, you can address it directly.
AG
Walk into his office and say, “You keep interrupting me when I’m talking. Knock it off.”
There’s no need to fret about preserving your working relationship. Men aren’t nearly as sensitive as women.
Susie
Are you sure he is trying to undermine you? Some people (including myself) have a problem with blurting. I’m working to correct this, but it’s hard for me to focus on what other people are saying without interrupting if I have a thought. It’s worst with people I’m more comfortable around, so maybe he’s just comfortable around you? Just a thought, in how you approach him. Like I said I’m aware of the problem and am trying to rectify it, so if someone pointed it out I would be a little embarrassed but it would be constructive if it was done in a light manner.
Anon in NYC
Is he your peer? Is it possible that he is just trying to be collaborative and really doesn’t realize that he’s being rude? Does he do it to others?
I think the next time he does it, first, just pick up where you left off in the conversation before he interrupted you. “As I was saying…”
Then, I think you need to follow him back to his office, shut the door, and say (nicely), “Joe, I’ve noticed that you tend to talk over me, or interrupt me in conversations with other people. I’m sure you’re not doing it intentionally, but I would appreciate it if you could be more mindful of it in the future.”
As an initial conversation, there is no need to go into it further. Especially if, like you say, he’s a genuinely nice guy. He may not realize that he’s doing it or how rude it is because he is so focused on getting his point across and contributing to the team.
AEK
I think it’s best dealt with in the moment, and consistently. Any time he interrupts or talks over you, say “excuse me,” or “just a minute,” or “I’m not done.” Every time. Say it every evenly and politely, but directly. Then, if you’ve said it multiple times, add a Tone or a Look, or —I find this most the helpful— say his name. As in “John, please let me finish.”
I wouldn’t approach him for a conversation about it until you’ve tried this. It’s too easy for him to be defensive and say he doesn’t do that. He might not even believe he does it unless you catch him in the midst of it. Also, the separate conversation carries a hint of drama. Better to address it as it happens.
saacnmama
How ’bout cutting off his interruptions with “you are so enthusiastic” or “just wait’ll you hear the rest of it” in one of those tones that says you’re teasing but it could turn real any minute.
I’m reading my own good intentions onto him. If I’m excited about something or want to support what’s being said, I have to be really careful not to cut the other person off.
Ug
I just found out that I have a bench trial tomorrow …the judge had confirmed this morning that he was continuing it until after we mediated.
It’s going to be a long night.
Catherine
Love these shoes! -London Glamour, Esq.
Anonymous
TJ – I had an offer withdrawn today for attempting to negotiate an extra $5k in salary and another benefit. They approached me for the position, so I’m especially kind of confused… I’m honestly not horribly upset, though a little surprised in this day and age of gender pay differences and ‘Lean In’… I just needed to vent among professional women!
NM
Just be glad, I think. That doesn’t really sound like a company you’d want to work for…There will be other (and better) opportunities!
Anon in NYC
Agreed. They sound like they would be awful to work for! It’s one thing to take a stand and say “no, we will not pay you an extra 5k, and we will not give you an extra week of vacation” and let you take it or leave it, and quite another to say “we’re withdrawing our offer because you had the temerity to ask for something that you wanted and felt you deserved.”
hellskitchen
Screw them. A company that withdraws an offer for attempting to negotiate will continue to disrespect you as a professional should you join them.
Anonymous
+1,000
Monday
Thank you for posting that. I have heard similar stories, though rarely. People always say you should try to negotiate your salary because “hey, the worst that could happen, they say no!” But that isn’t always true. I don’t think anyone should be looked down on for feeling timid about salary negotiation, especially not women, who we know face increased risk for being perceived as too pushy.
I agree it’s especially mystifying when they recruited you.
Sydney Bristow
I’m sorry, that sucks. How did you approach the negotiation? I agree with Anon in NYC that they could have just told you no without rescinding your offer, but maybe it could be a learning experience for negotiations in the future. Although maybe not since they don’t sound like somewhere worth working.
Monday
“Learning experience for negotiations in the future”–this is exactly what I was getting at. How can you work with this as a lesson, unless the lesson is “never ask for an extra $5k, because you may suddenly lose the offer”? What DO you dare to try in negotiation, if this was a deal-breaking move? (Especially in a situation like this, when she supposedly had leverage?) I mean these as open, genuine questions, not as an attack on you Sydney.
Sydney Bristow
Not taken as an attack. :-)
I’m not sure what could be learned from it, but it is worth thinking about. Obviously you’ll never get the true reason that the negotiation didn’t work, but there could be things worth trying differently in the future. For example, Lean In talks about female negotiators framing the negotiation in a collaborative way and other advice I’ve heard includes that people should smile more when negotiating, do a lot of research ahead of time to be able to point to comparative salaries as backup to why your request is reasonable, negotiating based on what you are bringing to the company as opposed to what you need your salary to be, etc. Like I said, there is no way to know what went wrong here, but maybe the OP can pinpoint something she would change in a future negotiation because it felt weird or off somehow as she was doing it. It’s also entirely possible that she was a perfect negotiator, but I think it is worth trying to think it through.
Anonymous
Original OP here…
I’m going to attempt to answer your question, without outing myself :)
I asked for an increase in the offered salary and to be made whole for a benefit I’d be walking away from due to their approaching me. The person who approached me indicated that this was on the table for consideration, after I initially expressed my only hesitation in moving jobs was this benefit. When I responded that I wanted 1. the higher salary and 2. this benefit, her response was to withdraw the offer. In speaking with some close friends, who I’ve forwarded her email to – they seem to believe she spoke out of turn in letting me know that the benefit was on the table and was then caught in a difficult position & forced to CYA, when it wasn’t. I’m by no means a master negotiator, but I think the real lesson here is not to fear negotiating for potential recension of an offer, because really – who wants to work for any company that would do that for your asking – but to make sure you are negotiating with someone who is capable of really making an offer and/or accepting a negotiation.
Sydney Bristow
Interesting. Thanks for sharing what you learned! I’m sorry it didn’t work out, but you’re right that this isn’t somewhere you’d want to work if that is how they respond to a completely reasonable thing like negotiating salary and benefits.
Snarkster
That’s crazy! I’m sorry you had that experience.
Anon
I had that happen when I was looking for jobs right out of college. I asked a company if they were able to match someone else’s offer (they were only $2k apart) and they rescinded it. It was a big consulting company.
Ready Player One
Thanks to whoever recommended this book recently. I LOVED it!
cbackson
I think it was me! Such a great book.