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Readers have been mixed on the idea of “nude flats” before (fair!), but I wonder where “nude for me loafers” fit in the mix. We're starting to see them for spring from various retailers, including Reiss.
For my $.02, I do like these loafers, although I think I prefer them more as a “very light brown” rather than a “nude beige,” if that makes sense — a neutral color but one that's meant to be seen, not fade so as to make your legs look like they go forever. The black soles and gold hardware also help them from being “nude.”
The loafers are $265 at Nordstrom and Reiss (where you can also get it in black). (And: wow, do I hate the styling of the loafers at Reiss. Hems matter!)
As of 2024, some of our favorite loafers for work are from Sam Edelman, Everlane, and Madewell. If you want something more classic, readers love Sperry and Ferragamo; if you want comfort, Vionic and Dr. Scholl's both have options. Meanwhile, if you want something a bit more feminine or slouchy, the Tory Burch loafers are all really highly rated at Nordstrom (especially this “ballet loafer“)!
![black loafer with gold bit detail on vamp](https://corporette.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/best-loafer-for-work-edelman-loraine.png)
![black loafers for work outfits; there is a gold detail across the top of the shoe](https://corporette.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/ferragamo-gancini-loafer.png)
![black loafers for work outfits](https://corporette.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/sperry-loafer-chunky-penny.png)
![black loafer from comfort shoe company Vionic](https://corporette.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/black-loafer-for-work-vionic-cheryl.png)
Sales of note for 8.30.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off full-price purchase; $99 jackets, dresses & shoes; extra 50% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50-70% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Final Days Designer Sale, up to 75% off; extra 20% off sale
- Boden – 20% off
- Brooks Brothers – Extra 25% off clearance
- Eloquii – Up to 60% off everything; extra 60% off all sale
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide; extra 60% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – Extra 20% off orders $125+; extra 60% off clearance; 60%-70% off 100s of styles
- Lo & Sons – Summer sale, up to 50% off (ends 9/2)
- Madewell – Extra 40% off sale; extra 50% off select denim; 25% off fall essentials
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Rothy's – End of season sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear in the big sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 25% off regular-price purchase; 70% off clearance
- White House Black Market – Up to 70% off sale
Anon
Any feds here who can shed light on whether they have outside long term disability insurance? My job offers short term, but no long term. It seems there are a few companies that offer disability insurance packages to feds for seemingly very low rates compared to traditional companies. Is this a scam or a benefit? Should I just go with a traditional company and pay more? New fed here.
Anon
My husband is a fed. The way it was explained to us is that LTD for feds is functionally treated as early retirement (which may be a monetary level that isn’t enough for your needs a a LTD person). We bought supplemental (mid-30s, 3 kids). The fed-specific ones may be cheaper because their coverage is less because it’s only meant to close the gap between what the feds offer and what you’re currently making.
Anon
I joined the Feds in the fall and it sounded like there’s no current LTD but they’re exploring options? I am standing by for an update before I decide anything.
anon for this
Is this actually something you can do right now? OPM has suspended enrollment with its preferred provider while they reassess premiums (undoubtedly they will go up sharply). I have a mental note to research more as I approach 50, which is still about a decade away.
LawDawg
The suspension was for long term care insurance. As far as I know, long term disability is still available.
Anon
Look at the Disability Retirement info on the OPM website. I’m a long term fed who decided that I didn’t need additional coverage beyond that, but obviously YMMV. I know WAEPA offers term life insurance to feds cheaper than FEGLI but not sure if LTD is something offered as well.
Runcible Spoon
Are you an attorney? I was told once by a fellow fed attorney that she belonged to the ABA. because it has excellent LTD group policies for members. If this applies to you, you might like to check it out!
dresses for a wedding guest
Help! I need to find a dress for a family wedding in early May. It’ll be a warm-to-hot and humidity outdoor reception. Level of formality seems to be in the “cocktail” range. I’m 40 and size 14. I’ve struck out on the websites of Anthro, Nordstrom, and Boden. Where else should I look?
Also, any tips for finding suitable shoes? I’m normally team Birks all the time and probably can’t handle heels at this point. I know I need to dress up more than usual.
Anon
zappos, bloomingdales, macys, saks (all other department stores depending on budget). you can also filter on the sites youve already searched by new arrivals to see if something new pops up. is this in the south somewhere given your weather description?
Anonymous
Hobbs if you are a bit short waisted.
Anonymous Canadian
I love Joseph Ribkoff for wedding-type stuff. If you look at 1ereavenue in Montreal they ship to the states and lots of their dresses have videos of them being worn by real people. Naturalizer has lots of cute flat sandals in metallics which might fit the bill. I think you can buy them online through their website or Zappos.
Anon
I have worn golf dresses from Lilly Pulitzer’s Luxletic line to c*cktail formal summer hot / humid events in the SEUS. They come with little bike shorts, have pockets, and are wicking, but look like regular Lilly. Maybe that? I wear with flats or Tretorns, depending.
ALT
None of the current Luxletic dresses are remotely close to c-tail attire. They might be okay for a dressy casual event but not anything more formal. I live in the south and I wouldn’t wear these to church let alone a wedding.
Anon
Wow. If you can work out in it you should NOT wear it to a wedding!!!
NYNY
Mara Hoffman, Banana Republic, and Tuckernuck are all good options for dress shopping. For shoes, try Vionic.
Anon
Vineyard Vines:
https://www.vineyardvines.com/product/womens-dresses/kd-scarf-print-maxi/2Q011409.html?color=E270
Lucky sizes only (14 is available): https://www.vineyardvines.com/product/womens-dresses/kentucky-derby-floral-strapless-column-midi/2Q011407.html?color=D079
Antonio Melani has some super cute dresses in a variety of styles.
Anon
Birkenstock has wedges now! Same footbed, just with a cork wedge.
Anon
They’re cute, but still very casual looking IMO too casual for a wedding
Aquitaine
There are some cute wedding-guest-type dresses on Banana Republic Factory right now.
A
Naturalizer metalic flats are dressy looking and very comfortable, e.g., https://www.amazon.com/Naturalizer-Pointed-Cabernet-Sauvignon-Metallic/dp/B0C41FBYH5?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1&psc=1
NaoNao
I’m 45 and a 14/16 sometimes 18 and two things:
Macy’s of all places has a surprisingly robust cocktail and occasion selection, especially for plus. I’d also look on Poshmark–search Anthro but filter by price (over $100) and length (midi-maxi) and go with 14/16 not the L-XL-XXL sizing types. The Missy sizing not letter sizing usually means a more formal and upscale dress FYI.
Shoes: I would look for airy, lightweight formal fancy sandals. I recently found the Loeffler Randall “Starla” sandal on ThredUp and I have high hopes this will solve my similar dilemma: need fancy/pretty shoes for events but don’t want to go with heels. But usually if you G–gle search an item and then go on “shopping” tab it will pull suggestions from your usual browsing and buying history.
anan
Similar stats here, and I’ve had really good luck w/ Macy’s online too. Also, Naturalizer carries some great mid-heeled sandles (the type with a single wide strap across the top and an ankle buckle), that are a great balance of wedding presentability and comfort.
Anon
For shoes, without going all the way to flip-flops, maybe Olukai Tiare in either bubbly or silver could work.
Anon
Farm Rio
KP
Dillards has a search category for Easter dress! Plenty of possibilities IMO.
Vero Beach
Can anyone comment on what Vero beach is like as a vacationer? I found a good last-minute deal there, but know nothing about it. If relevant, I’m a POC from the Northeast and it looks like a pretty red area, so I’m wondering if there could be uncomfortable situations. I’d be traveling with my white DH and 2 young kids. Thanks!
Anon
I’m white so I can’t comment on the POC experience, but I have been there. It’s Trumpy but *much* less in your face MAGA than the Panhandle. My guess is it would be completely fine and you and your tourist dollars would be warmly welcomed, but ymmv as a POC. It probably also depends what kind of POC. I can see Latinos getting rude comments about being illegal since that’s a top issue for many on the right especially in Florida, but those comments are unlikely to be directed toward a Black person.
eh230
I can’t comment on the experience as a POC since I am white, but my husband and I had a long weekend on Vero Beach, and it was fine. A couple of things to note. The beach is not very wide which may be an issue for the kids. When we went the ocean was also really rough, but it may be too cold to swim right now anyway. Sun rises were amazing, and there were cute shops and restaurants. We stayed at the hotel owned by Gloria Estefan and her husband, and it was very nice. Perhaps because of that, I did notice that there were more POCs at the hotel than in other parts of town.
Deedee
Not much at Vero Beach except that it’s close to the space center
I mean it’s a beach town so we did mini golf and stuff with the kids. It’s friendlier and gentler than Tampa, definitely has its own vibe. I’m not POC but my friends there were quite liberal and talked about their non-majority friends and hating the governor
Anonymous
I’m just emerging from a very intense period of work, and I am feeling so tired. I don’t necessary feel burned out – I’m still interested in my job – but I’m just exhausted. I am sleeping a lot, and I am struggling to be social. It’s like my extrovert battery is completely depleted. Other than a lot of sleep, any suggestions for how to get my energy back? I’ve tried to get back into an exercise groove and it is just not working.
anon
What low-key activities do you enjoy that might be rejuvenating?
Could you meet a coworker or friend for coffee or similarly low stakes?
Is it nice enough to get a daily walk outside?
When I get into this mode after busy seasons, it just takes time and lots of self-care to fully bounce back.
Anonymous
Go look at art in a museum or wander a beautiful garden.
Anon
For me this is a sign to be really faithful at taking a multivitamin or at least a B complex since I need extra nutrition when I’m spent. The way my doctor explained it, there are certain nutrients we just use more of when we’re pushing ourselves, and since my diet is relatively low calorie, I’m not great at replenishing either. (Nothing wrong with low calorie diets, but it’s definitely easier to get a lot of nutrition when eating a lot of food!)
Anon
Give yourself a break and keep sleeping as much as you need.
Runcible Spoon
find a book you’ve been meaning to read, and read it. Or pick up some trashy magazines and flip through them. Go to a Barnes & Noble and spend the afternoon browsing the shelves and buy a couple of books. Go to a park with a sketch book and something to sit on, and sketch what you see. Get a massage, and take a nap afterwards.
Anon
Following up on the morning thread, one thing that’s really hard about modern bachelor*tte parties is that the brides are increasingly aware of the costs and are making extra effort to keep costs down, but it’s still often not enough and then it causes worse hurt feelings. I had a friend who offered to cover my share of the hotel (at a time when I made $32,000 in a HCOL area) and was very hurt when I explained that I still could not afford the weekend. The whole thing just felt so messy and embarrassing and terrible. My hot take? Get rid of ALL destination bachelorette parties. I bet the brides would be happy to save money too, honestly.
Anon
I am SO happy I got married before destination bach parties were a big thing. Mostly we just had a meal and some drinks and got out for less than $100 per person, even covering the bride’s share. I went to a few that were a couple hundred dollars each (spa day, horseback riding, afternoon tea at a fancy hotel) but nothing that was in the high hundreds, let alone thousands.
Anon
The brides who are the ones who want them!! They see these extravagant parties on instagram with a passel of girls posing in matching outfits and custom monogrammed beach bags and they want that whole experience to show it off on social media.
Anon
It just sucks to be told “oh if money’s a problem I’ll give you $100.” There is no world in which that works for the poor friend to be singled out and guilted.
anon
Yup, it’s all about the ‘gram, or wanting to re-create a time when all their besties were in one location (like college or something). In other words, fantasy life, not reality. Again, I never could’ve afforded this sh!t in my 20s, and now that I’m in my 40s, it is 100 percent NOT how I’d want to spend my money even though I technically could. The wedding is the celebration. You get ONE DAY, plus probably a bunch of bridal showers, to be a princess. It is so disrespectful of your friends who may not be flush with cash but still feel pressured or obligated to go along with everything. Do none of these brides have friends who have, IDK, regular jobs and middle-class incomes?
I feel the same way about destination weddings, so I’m super fun.
Anon
To be fair, about half of my friends who do bachlorettes don’t do showers (or, showers that they invite friends to. They might do one with aunts and older family friends to appease that crowd).
Of my friends who do have showers, people have ONE.
My aunt (74) is confused by the destination bachlorette party, but said she can’t begrudge anyone because while she had no bachlorette (not even a local night out), she did have SIX wedding showers among different groups.
She got married a few weeks after she graduated from college (and lived at home while commuting to college) so she had nothing for her house. Meanwhile, my friends all are 30 and already live with their fiancés so they don’t need a shower and would rather have a bachlorette
Anon
+1 to showers (or at least showers you invite your friends and bridesmaids to) becoming way less common in my circle
Anon
You can sit right by me. :)
I hope this comes off as I intend, the antithesis of Smug Married: if you are so fortunate as to find someone whom you love deeply, who loves you in return, and you are able to commit to each other, why do you need expensive ancillary celebrations? When I got married at age 38, I just felt like things finally worked out for me and that was already more than I deserved.
And can we stop equating “maxing out your credit cards for a luxurious weekend” with “showing up for your friends”? That Venn Diagram is two circles that don’t overlap all that much.
Anon
THANK YOU. I love my friends. I am not paying $2k for a pre-party for their already expensive party.
Anonymous
AMEN.
All of this. 100%.
Anon
Agreed.
Anon
Can I come sit by you?
Anonymous
The first time I ever heard of a destination bachelorette party was about a decade ago on a “reality” show that was on at a sibling’s house. No one in my extended family or friends circles ever planned such a thing… From what I’m seeing it’s become more of a thing because of social media and “influencers”.
Anonymous
Social media FOMO must be driving this trend and I’d imagine it’s really hard/awkward to be the one who can’t participate if you’re the sole participant with student loans and less than a six-figure job.
Luckily I’ve been married 15 years now so this wasn’t a thing back then but I could NOT have afforded this at 27 making $65k/yr in NYC. The dress/shoes/bridal shower gift/wedding gift was hard enough!
Anonymous
The general expectation seems to be going into debt instead of opting out.
I am so glad we got married before social media. Our entire wedding cost less than 5K, I can’t imagine spending even half of that on one pre-wedding party!
Anon
I swear there used to be a reality show where people could take the $ and buy a house or blow it on a wedding. Pretty sure I’d incent my stepkids and kids with this: I will give you X to start your life: buy a house, spend it on a wedding, do whatever, but this is it. And if no kid gets married, just give them the $ at 35 or so if they’ve not had a convo prior.
Anon
Yes – Marriage or Mortgage was a Netflix show.
Weddings are so hard – I’d love to not spend much on mine because I”m a pretty frugal person but I also am a people person – I have lots of very close friendships and groups of friends and basically all of my friends have told me that I’m great at staying in touch with lots of people and that I’m a good friend. To me these relationships are everything, so I wouldn’t want to have a small wedding without the people I love there. So, there’s no way I’m having an inexpensive wedding. It won’t be extravagant, but I do love a good time and providing food and drinks for a larger group is expensive.
While a lot of people do spend stupid amounts of money on weddings and there is room to cut back, at the end of the day throwing a big party is just expensive. People really look down on people spending money on weddings and love to brag about how they spent so little on a wedding, which is fine but you probably also approach relationships differently than I do. Neither of us are wrong or bad, but there’s so much judgment on people who do decide to have larger weddings.
Anon
This is the way. My father gave my sister and I $25k each for our weddings. She borrowed $15k against her 401k to cover the shortfall on hers; I banked about $8,500 (which got eaten up with maternity leave and hospital expenses the next year).
Anon
Out of curiosity for all of you brides who had inexpensive weddings: when did you get married and how many people were at your wedding?
anonshmanon
I had a tiny wedding, which was a failed elopement.
But thinking of the friend and family weddings I’ve been to, the amount that I remember from each day is pretty similar, regardless of whether we celebrated in a fancy hotel or the equivalent of a church hall. All had somewhere around 100-150 people there.
Anon
I got married in 2012 and we spent around $12k for 80 guests. This was in coastal New England in a very picturesque sitting, and things cost more there than in the rural south or Midwest but much less than in SF/NYC/etc. A huge amount of the wedding cost was the photography, which I think was around $3,500. The per guest cost was pretty cheap, I want to say only around $30 per plate and the meal was excellent. We had a DJ (for $500) instead of a live band. Other big expenses were a $2k venue rental fee, ~$1500 on flowers, $1k for my dress and $500 for the officiant. The rest was miscellaneous expenses.
In my Midwest hometown, people still get married for under $10k, but those are more church banquet hall kind of things. Personally the weddings I’ve enjoyed the most as a guest have been on the cheaper, smaller side. Big, flashy weddings often feel like they’re more about the stuff than about the couple. We went to a wedding where the bride kept talking about how she’d spent some staggering amount of money (I think $20k?) on the flowers alone, and I just kept thinking “is this event about your new husband or about the flowers?” I mean, I like flowers a lot, and it was very pretty, but it just felt like she had lost the plot.
anon
My wedding cost around $1k. We eloped and got a photographer (it was just a couple hundred bucks to show up for half and hour), our rings which were pretty basic, and some officiant off the internet that was available that day. And I got a multicolor sundress on sale from anthropologie that I still wear. we went out for dinner after and spent a little under 100$ there. That was 10 years ago and I wouldn’t change a thing.
Anon
Anon at 3:52 pm: I don’t know if mine was inexpensive; it was $15k, not counting what I spent on hotels and flights for family.
75 people, church ceremony, brunch reception with an open bar at a national historic landmark.
Money savers: off season (saved $2k on venue cost); brunch (half as much as dinner and the food was amazing); dress was $900 and not $3k; Costco flowers; you get the idea.
Biggest costs: upfront costs (dress, photographer, tuxedos, musician for the ceremony); and… serving 75 people a sit-down meal in a place that allowed for music and a dance floor.
That last one was the killer. I looked at restaurant buy-outs, country clubs, wedding venues that allowed for a variety of catering options, parks (get a heated tent because it was the winter), university halls, the church’s venue hall, and the Junior League’s building. The last two didn’t allow dancing or booze; the lack of a dance floor nixed most restaurants. A heated tent plus tables, chairs, and place settings cost more than the venue fee at the historical site.
Anon
I’m so intrigued by the weddings – I could EASILY have 300 people at mine (and that would mean leaving some people off!). I really dont know how I’d cut it down to 150
Anon
I think family size is a lot of it. I’m an only child, my dad is estranged from his only sibling, my grandparents are dead and my mom has one sister who is widowed and has one child. I basically had no family to invite, other than my parents -literally just the one aunt and one cousin. I could invite every friend I’d want there and still have a pretty manageable guest list. My husband comes from a big family and had to be more ruthless about inviting friends.
Anon
My wedding was 125 people but in a tiny town, so catered under a tent with beer and wine. Photographer and a band. My parents paid maybe 10K because they had paid for my sister’s wedding; I paid for the band. I already had a house. A bigger city would be more $. I was the last of my friends to get married so I didn’t have attendants. I did have a baby shower the next year and my MIL threw a shower for me in her city (where I knew a lot of people from college) but that was it. I registered for basic items at Target and Williams-Sonoma because most relatives are teachers or farmers in both sides. MIL also had a rehearsal dinner for us.
Anon
Ours cost about $25k all-in (including photo albums and a new suit for DH) for a city hall wedding and restaurant buy-out in a VHCOL area. We got a screaming deal at $25 a head for the restaurant.
Anon
i commented on the morning thread, but i did not have one for this reason. most of my friends (including myself) were in grad school at the time i got married. especially if people have to travel (even if not far) to your wedding. i say if the bride or some bridesmaid is uberwealthy and wants to cover all costs for everyone, great, otherwise it’s absurd. there were some i attended i had to pay to fly to bc that is where the bride lived, but i at least didn’t have costs for lodging. also what do people do with all the ridiculous swag after the fact?
Anon
As a 29 year old woman who is in the midst of what feels like endless weddings and bachlorette, I have a few thoughts on this.
I understand why destinations have become popular: the bridal party (or other friends invited to the bachlorette) don’t all live in the same city, so I understand the concept of traveling somewhere. Most people don’t have large enough apartments to host more than 1-2 people, if that. Also, every bride I know lives with her fiancé so it’s weird to host a bachlorette in your apartment with your fiancé there. Also, in most bachlorette parties I’ve gone to about half of the group lives near the bride and about half of the group does not. A friend of mine specifically had a destination bachlorette because she felt like it was unfair to make some of the group pay to travel while others would have no travel expenses. I see how this very easily became a “if we’re traveling anyway, we might as well go to XYZ fun destination”.
I’ve been to 3 bachlorettes in the last 2 years (and turned down a fourth) and they were all destination. Destinations ranged from hot bachlorette locations (Scottsdale) to more rural, laid back options but for every one of them every single attendee had to fly there. I had one three day bachlorette and the rest were four days. Compared to what I’ve seen from others, all of mine were relatively “chill”: no extravagant activities, no matching outfits or shirts, no gifts, and the bride contributed to all of them. All of the bachlorettes had activities (going to a winery, a pedal bar crawl) and most had a theme night (all black, 80s theme, disco theme). Most of the themes didn’t require me to buy any clothing (and the one that did I spent maybe $40) and the activities were similarly not very expensive ($50 pp for all activities for the weekend, for example).
Most brides have split everything equally with us and then contributed something (non-cheesy, actually appreciated gift; covering an activity or a meal for everyone). A friend of mine covered the entire Airbnb costs for everyone.
I still don’t like spending my time and money on these parties, but I also understand where the brides are coming from. Honestly, my biggest pet peeve is not the expense but when brides choose hard to reach destinations or make plans with logistical challenges – for example, I mentioned going to a bachlorette in Arizona – well, the bride and every single attendee for that bachlorette lived on the East Coast. A nearly cross country flight + 2 hour time change for a four day party is a PITA. Another friend did hers at a family lake house in the Midwest – accommodations were free which was nice but it was not an easy area to get to. There was a nearby airport, but it was a regional airport and so flights were expensive and infrequent (and required layovers) – I opted out of attending this party.
I know friends who have attended bachlorette parties with absolutely insane asks: a full itinerary with very specific outfits for each activity, several paid activities, private chefs, etc. To me, those are really the “instagram” bachelorettes which are insane and unnecessary and rude to ask your friends to pay for.
All this to say, I don’t love destination bachlorettes but I understand why they’re popular, and it’s not always for Instagram. Logistically they often make sense. I also usually only have one bachlorette a year, but have had ~4 weddings a year for the past few years and I only expect that number to increase (most of my friends are either still single or are dating; only a handful are married so far).
Anon
But you don’t have to have one at all, which makes me think that they are absolutely for Instagram.
Anon
Sure you don’t have to have one, but it’s okay for a bride to WANT one. IDK, obviously the traveling for them is new, but it’s not like the concept of a bachelorette party is new – my mom is in her 60s and had a bachlorette / went to them for all of her friends.
I think there’s nothing wrong with wanting to have a bachelorette party, recognizing your friends aren’t in the same location and choosing to do something in a neutral location as long as it’s not crazy expensive, or a burden for your friends.
Anon
Bachelorette parties pre-date Instagram. Even destination parties pre-date Instagram. I went to several in the 90s. (New Orleans in 1998 remains one of my favorite trips ever.)
Anon
+1 My parents (in their 60s) had “destination” bachelor / bachlorette parties – they both did them down the shore. So, not extravagant but it was a full weekend rather than one night of going out, people had to drive ~ 2 hours to get there, and they got hotels. They got matching shirts and had goody bags. It was probably a few hundred dollars per person, so nothing like 5 days in Cancun (which my friend just attended a bachelor party that was this) but it was still “destination”.
I can think of at least 4 bachlorette party t shirts my mom had when I was a little kid (they had been downgraded to sleep shirts).
Personally, I think the low key weekend away is a great bachlorette party. It’s rude to ask your guests to spend thousands on a weekend, but spending two nights at the nearest to your city destination enjoying the local attractions + bars? Sounds like a blast.
Anonymous
Yes, these kinds of parties have been around for decades (my grandmother had a ‘hen party’) but unless one had actual wealth, they weren’t the elaborate affairs that seem to be the expectation today.
Anon
God forbid you want one?
Anon
Sure but if so, don’t make it a test of your friendship. If someone can’t come, they can’t do it, it doesn’t mean you have to be mean to them or tell all your friends that they refused to be “there for you.
Anon
If a bride’s friends literally live all over the country, sure pick a random destination. If your college friends are in one general area and high school friends are in another, the bride can have 2 separate bachelorettes – one in place A convenient to the first group and one in place B for the second group. Then the only person who has significant travel is the bride. It won’t work perfectly for ALL friends, but picking a place inconvenient for everyone and blaming it on friends living all over is clearly just an excuse.
Anonymous
I missed the morning conversation, but it’s definitely interesting to see that among my friend groups, as we got older, the bachelorette parties have become more local to the bride or smaller in scope. A bachelorette I’m going to in a couple weeks is going to be local to the bride and most of the guests, and planned so it’s very low key and people can join whichever meal works better for their schedules and no matchy matchy clothes, since many of us are in our mid-30s now and have various family obligations. And we’re spending less money even though we all make more money than we did in our 20s with the bigger parties…
Anon
I can’t believe I”m defending destination bachlorettes (because as a somewhat frequent attendee of them, I do complain about them a lot) but not every destination bachlorette is a matching outfits, expensive excursions, lots of personalized swag, “for the gram” bachlorette. I have yet to be in a wedding where the bride and bridesmaids all live in the same geographic area, let alone city. So, if we have to travel anyways, we might as well travel somewhere fun (like a beach in the south while we’re all stuck in New England winters!).
I went to a very low key one in St. Pete Beach where all we did during the day was go to the beach and then we went out to local bars at night (and the bride treated to dinner for one night!). It was a Friday – Sunday bachlorette (with two people working a full day Friday then flying in Friday night / Saturday morning), Tampa airport is an easy destination (plenty of affordable, direct flights and the airport is a reasonable Uber from where we were staying). People came from LA, Chicago, Minneapolis, Boston, NYC, and DC for the weekend so there was no “local” option. I think my flight + Airbnb were $400ish total and then probably another $200 on meals and alcohol (we ate out for dinner and got groceries for the Airbnb for breakfast / lunch / snacks). Sure $600 isn’t nothing, but it also wasn’t $2k (which, unfortunately, I’ve also done for bachlorettes).
Anonymous
Also someone older defending destination bachelorettes – you have no idea how few vacations you’ll get to go on with your friends. You’re solidifying friend groups and bonds, which will be helpful in the years when a group text is as good as it’s gonna get. But – that’s why you shouldn’t say yes to everything! Go to the ones with people you really love.
Re the $$$ – hate to say it but different income is a reason why a lot of friendships fall apart. Different free time, also.
Anon
That’s true! The St. Pete Beach bachlorette was my favorite one I”ve been on – I was already friends with about half of the group and then the bridesmaids I didn’t know yet were great and everyone really clicked! I live in the same city as the bride and I love when her other bridesmaids come to visit and I get to see them again!
For my main group of college friends – one friend is married and the other 3 of us are single. She got married during COVID so didn’t do a bachlorette party. A year later we planned a beach weekend for our friend group and surprised her by having it be her belated bachlorette! We do a yearly beach weekend anyways (and I really do treasure the opportunity to do this), but we surprised her with the details.
paula
I’m the morning commenter – I would have been fine if it was like this and tbh, this is kinda what I was expecting.
Also, these trips don’t always feel like girls trips. There’s an element of “all for the bride” which makes sense of course, but makes it different as well.
Anon
also, in this day and age people’s friends are often so spread out that even just to attend a wedding i often had to travel and/or stay in a hotel if i didnt have a local friend to stay with, so i can kind of understand why people might want/need to travel to a bachelorette, but then do it some place where all the guests have a free place to stay
Anon
I think this is the real issue. If all your close friends live in your city, and you’re getting married locally so their cost to attend the wedding is just the dress and shoes, sure, go somewhere fun for the bach party.
But when you’re asking people to fly and stay in a hotel for a wedding, which is really normal these days, adding another mandatory trip on top of that becomes ridiculous, unless everyone invited is uber wealthy. I have very spread out friends and family, so I’ve basically never attended a local wedding, and I think that’s contributed to destination bach parties not being a thing in my circles.
Anon
Yeah I don’t mind traveling for them because my friends are spread out. Though – I don’t know anyone who has a big enough apartment to host that many people, so I don’t really know what you suggest as a place where the guests all have a free place to stay
Anon
IME, about 90% of my friends are along the NEC so while I have to travel to maybe 50% of the weddings I attend, its not a hassle (if the wedding has decent parking I drive (and often carpool with friends), if not I take Amtrak) and then I either stay with friends who are also going to the wedding or share a hotel room with friends. Usually its like $150 or less to travel to a non-local wedding.
As a result of us all living along the NEC, we live in expensive cities and therefore have small apartments so no one can really host a bachlorette which is why we travel for those, and we get a vacation out of it!
Anonymous
I feel like there’s a lot of hate on these kinds of bachelorette parties but my friends like them. So here’s my counterpoint. I’m 37. My core group of friends are from college/grad school and so we’ve known each other for a long time. People have gotten married over the years, and it was fun to travel together a few times a year for a girls weekend. It also encourages people to prioritize the weekend because it’s for something “bigger” than just a regular girls weekend. We liked it so much that even though we are all married now, we still plan a girls weekend together once a year, despite having kids/husbands/jobs, etc.
That being said, it seems that the main point is cost and we have clear alignment on cost in advance (when we do the date pool, we also ask people what they are willing to spend on the weekend (excluding air fare) so that can be factored into planning. We also plan cheaper alternatives if there’s a really expensive activity planned so that a group of people can opt into the cheaper activity if needed.
Anon
I think girls trips are great. I actually signed up to go on a moms trip with a group of women I don’t know very well, and am going to be spending at least $2k on the trip (including optional activities). I’m super excited about it, and looking forward to getting to know these women better. The problem with bach trips is there’s often a lot of guilt if someone can’t make it or doesn’t want to attend for budget reasons. It’s not just a “normal” girls trip where people can opt out without hard feelings.
Anonymous
I mean if you don’t want to do it then don’t. Personally I hate group travel. I went from one extreme to the other: I was a student with negative money and zero time, then I was in biglaw with all the money but still zero time. Travel wasn’t an option at all when I was a student living on loans. When I finally had money, I couldn’t/didn’t want to do the kind of travel that other people could do. I’m not staying in a 2 bedroom house with umpteen girls and no privacy, I’m not splitting an expensive hotel room with one or three other people so I’ll still have to pay if work cancels my time off (and I still have no privacy), I’m not blocking out an entire 5 days where I don’t know the itinerary or when/whether I can get excuse myself to take a call if needed. I think you have to be a real go with the flow person to have fun on these trips that’s just not me.
But I don’t begrudge other people their fun! If you want to have a trip with a bunch of friends then go for it, I will send a bottle of champagne to your room with my warmest wishes (from afar).
Anon
The problem is that not attending really, truly will end the friendship in many cases. I wish it were as easy as sending a bottle of champagne and well-wishes and everyone walking away smiling.
Anon
This
Anon
Then these are not friends worth having. And this level of immaturity is not a great sign for the marriage
Anon
IME, it doesn’t ruin friendships but it is understandably hurtful to learn you’re not a priority for someone.
For example, when I was working FT and in grad school PT (and paying my way through school), I opted out of a lot because I had no money or time. No one was upset with me, they all understood.
However, if I picked and chose what ones I went to I could see it being hurtful – like you can make it work to go to Sally’s bachelorette party but not mine when I view you as one of my closest friends but you don’t seem to reciprocate that.
Anon
The problem is that society has evolved to have expectations of reciprocity – it’s one of the oldest social contracts we have. If Jane goes to your bachelorette party because she can afford it and wants to come, but then you can’t afford to go to hers, that’s a violation of reciprocity, even if you have a good reason.
anonshmanon
there is reciprocity in a general sense and there is being transactional. Sending a bottle of champagne and heartfelt wishes is reciprocating on an emotional level.
Also, I have seen several posters in this conversation just straightforwardly assume that the last one in a friend group to get married to get the short end of the stick when all the girls can’t make the bachelorette party due to having a young family or whatever, but that is not seen as a friendship-ending affront.
Anonymous
That seems really harsh. I’m 50 and didn’t have a bachelorette party, so no dog in this fight. I haven’t kept up with all of my friends from my 20s. But there is something to showing up for people for the events that matter most to them, whether it’s a wedding, a baby shower, cancer, the death of a parent, etc. I’m childless but I don’t regret being there for baby showers and first birthdays. And, yes, the people who I am closest with have shown up for me for the one or two occasions in my life that have really mattered. If it’s a true financial constraint, then be open about it and people will understand. But to say the expectation of being there for someone else is in itself somehow immature isn’t fair. Most of the friends “worth having” will show up for you when you need them. It’s demonstrating that the relationship is a priority–and that’s actually a really lovely thing.
Anon
5:25 — the WEDDING is the event you show up for. That is the milestone! The Bach party is an extravagance and it’s nonsense to say that people who go to the wedding but not the Bach are “not showing up for you”
Anon
I don’t think you can expect perfect one-to-one reciprocity with respect to any one event, but the problem is that if everyone has the attitude that the events are easily skippable, you’re going to end up with some brides who have no one at their parties, and that’s obviously incredibly hurtful. Hence the feeling that if the person is a good friend it’s sort of obligatory, because no one wants to see a good friend’s party fall apart because no one shows up.
(And no, not a personal vendetta, my friends and I didn’t do big parties — just an observation).
Anonymous
If that’s the kind of person she is then I’m not sure I’d call it a “problem” that the friendship is ending. It’s totally nonsensical to me that ability to attend an event like this makes or breaks a friendship. It’s not like people who attend are great friends and people who don’t are not. I guarantee some people in attendance wanted to come for solely selfish reasons: social media likes, bragging about how popular they are (omg I’m in 17,358 weddings this year it’s SUCH a burden to be so popular), they like the location. There’s always someone (or more than one) who makes the entire trip about her.
If your friend is truly hurt then treat her to a spa day at home. That $200 mani/pedi is less expensive than a whole trip and you’ll get more one on one time with her anyway.
Anon
I’m the same way, group travel is a nightmare for me. I don’t have a lot of money in my travel budget, and when I do travel I don’t want to go on a bachelorette trip.
Anon
I agree that it’s on the brides, but it’s like hazing: it was done to them and now it’s their turn and they’ve earned it by paying in to the Ponzi scheme. What people should do is put into a fund that the last to marry gets b/c everyone else will have kids and not be able to go when it’s her turn to get married. But if I’m not on the bottom rung of the pyramid scheme, I like the pyramid scheme, you know?
Anon
I am apparently alone here (although I know I am not alone because my friends are with me) but I love bachelorette parties and I particularly love the ones in fun locations. And I say this as someone who has never been married and fully expects most of my friends to be unable to have the same kind of event for me. I do not go to weddings, showers, bachelorettes, etc. because I am expecting payback. I just like hanging out with my friends.
That said – there needs to be a realistic assessment of who might attend, their finances and stage of life (in one case we selected a location because it was both fun and the hometown of the mom of the brand-new baby) and an agreement about how much people can spend in advance. The last time I organized one (and it had to be destination because nobody was in the same place) I circulated four options of potential activities and pricing and used Survey Monkey to get buy in. That way there were no surprises after everyone had agreed to come. And then I made sure we stayed within that budget.
Anon
I’m indifferent on them: I don’t love them, I don’t hate them, but they’re something I do because it means a lot to my loved ones. Sometimes they’re really fun girls weekends and sometimes they’re stressful for me (an introvert) if there isn’t enough down time or if it’s a situation where I don’t know the group well.
I love your approach to the budget. The only time I have been unhappy with one was when no one asked for input on budget, location, or date and it was out of my budget and / or a hard to get to destination.
Anon
I agree with you, I loved them too. I eloped and didn’t get married until my 40s and never had kids, fwiw. Also was in big law for most of my 30s. really enjoyed that time in life when everyone was basically free to go have fun on long weekends. Was it expensive? Sometimes although I spend a lot more on girls trips and vacations now than I did then. But the memories and bonding were priceless. I also can’t relate to any of the “I do t have friends” posts that pop up here a lot. I credit making the time over the years to invest in friendships. And I’ve had a lot of fun along the way.
Anon
You didn’t have kids. I think that’s another big reason you don’t relate to the “I don’t have friends” posts. Kids often make friendships, old and new, much more difficult
Anon
Kids also make friendships much deeper – now that my friends and I are each others’ “SOS childcare plans” I feel like we’re that much closer
Anonymous
Sorry, but having kids doesn’t magically make for deeper friendships. If anything, it makes for a lot of friendships that are shaped around different stages for your kids and are likely to peter out as those stages change. The folks you grab coffee with after Mommy & Me are not the same ones you’re sitting along the gym bleachers when your kid has a game. It’s a lot like work friends. It’s often intense at the time but things shift as the circumstances around you change.
anon
I don’t mind them (along with other trips with friends). The trick is that most people need to be on the same page with costs, and also the “planning committee” needs to accept that if they want to do fancier things, they need to foot some of the added fancy cost. I’m a big proponent of hotels, rather than airbnb, mostly because it gives people more flexibility on price – e.g., some people get their own room, some go 4 to a room. (Also have a mostly hate relationship with airbnb). When I organized one, I paid for everything, and gave the guests a suggested contribution amount. Some contributed more, some contributed less as the crowd ran the gamut from teachers to trust funds.
Anon
Really, these are just slightly obligatory girls trips. My mom is in her 60s and she and her friends have done annual girls trips my entire life. Sometimes they’re cheap (go to someone’s cabin for the weekend, cook meals in house, and *gasp* share a room / bed with a friend) and sometimes they’re expensive (long weekend that requires a flight and hotel and meals out). My cousins in their 40s with kids and big jobs also make time and space in the budget for girls trips. To me, these are just the late 20s and 30s versions of girls trips.
Anonymous
The thing is that girls’ trips are very, very much a rich party person thing. My husband and I make a good living. We can afford one family vacation a year. We are not going to rob our kids of their vacation so one of us can go on an overpriced trip with old friends that likely wouldn’t be much fun anyway because we don’t like AirBnBs or wild debauchery. If I had like $100K a year extra cash just floating around it would be a different story. I wouldn’t mind throwing away $3K to spend a weekend doing dumb things because I wouldn’t have to give up something else I actually wanted to fund it. At that income level I would also have maid service and a nanny so it would be easier to skip town for the weekend without getting behind.
Eliza
100%
Anon
So, one thing that I think is interesting is that, at least among my friends, the men’s bachelor parties are at least as extravagant, if not more so, than the women’s bachelorette parties. Yet, I don’t hear the same discourse about the mens. I also learned from my ex that men who own tuxes typically still have to rent tuxes when they’re groomsmen so that they’re matching and that those tux rentals seem to be more expensive than most bridesmaid dresses.
IME, men’s bachelor parties are larger than women’s (I know of three grooms who had 20+ guys at their bachelor party), typically involve expensive activities (like golf ($200 a round!), attending a music festival, attending a pro sporting event, a Vegas weekend, or skiing), and seem to be logistically challenging (flying with golf clubs or skis). I also know of more men who do international bachelor parties than women.
They don’t seem to get the same hate though – sure it’s not “for the gram” and there aren’t matching t shirts, but it’s just as over the top and probably more expensive to attend.
As stated above, it’s not cheap to be a groomsmen – they’re either renting tuxes or buying suits which isn’t cheap. Really, it seems like the only place they save money is by not having to attend a bridal shower, so that’s a savings of what $50? They’re still giving a wedding gift, buying an outfit, traveling for the bachelor party and maybe traveling for the wedding. My male friends also seem to all give more expensive wedding gifts than my female friends do! FWIW, I spend between $100-$150 on weddings (and double it if I’m bringing a date).
FWIW – I know hair and makeup gets chalked up to a wedding cost for women, but every bride I know pays for her bridesmaids’ hair and makeup. I”ve never heard of a bridesmaid having to pay for that. While I’ve certainly attended quite a few wedding showers, I feel like they’re becoming less common (the bride whose wedding I’m in this fall isn’t having one), but even if I do have to attend one I spend about $50 on a shower gift and wear a dress I already own.
For very close friends I send an engagement gift – usually flowers or wine or something in the $30 range but that’s entirely optional.
Anon
I mostly hear discussions about them on this page, and it’s for women. Men don’t tend to “vent” and analyze in the same way. But that said, maybe it’s a volume difference? Women seem to have broader definitions of friend groups and close friends, which adds up to more invites (and we often take no-shows more personally). And FWIW my husband has attended only a handful of Bach parties; most are day trips (baseball game, round of golf) and the one overnight was a rented air b&b that everyone could drive to, and they brought their own food and played video games all night. Maybe there’s less of an expectation that people travel from far and wide for men.
My husband has one best friend remaining to get married; other than that friend, he will absolutely say no to any big bash (and even for that friend, the party has to be reasonable for our finances and family.)
Anon
I think wish life had more big parties in it and that it was all easier and less expensive and we all had more days off work for it all. Like a good/no famine year among my medieval peasant ancestors I guess.
Anon
Do you tip florists? I ordered floral arrangements for a personal event. The shop is letting me pick them up an hour before they officially open for the day. I plan to tip for the early pick up but wasn’t sure about tipping for the flowers themselves. The florist is a company with locations in three states (so not a sole proprietorship). What would you do?
Anon
I wouldn’t give any tip even for opening early. I’ve never heard of tipping a florist at all.
Anon
+1
Senior Attorney
Agree
Anonymous
No. I tipped the florist’s staff at my wedding like $20 pp for helping to move stuff from one spot to another (on the same property, maybe 25 yards away) but I didn’t tip on the overall service and I didn’t tip the owner.
Anon
No, of course not.
Cat
this is not a tipping situation at all IMHO
Anon
The appropriate reward here is a nice Google or Yelp review, not a tip.
It's me.
Is wearing loafers like this to Paris a terrible idea for lots of walking? I’m bringing tennies but wanted something like this as an option. Is it possible they can be comfy enough? And if so, any leads?
anon
Oof, I would not, but I have learned the hard way that vacation is not the time to mess with flat shoes. The more cushioning, the better.
Anon
For me, it would be a terrible idea but I have bad feet and get blisters easily.
Anonymous
I have high arches and can walk/stand in Rothy’s without pain/add in an insert, maybe try those? The loafers are my current favorite style.
For sightseeing I wore white low profiles sneakers all over London and fit right in, I’d prioritize comfort over style for day with a pair of dressy shoes for fancier places.
anon88
I know this isn’t your question, but I was just in Paris and everyone was wearing black boots and white sneakers. Personally I did enough walking that loafers would not have worked for me.
Anon
These are going out to dinner/sitting in an office all day shoes, not walking shoes.
Anon
I don’t know that any loafers, at least cute ones, would be walking shoes!
Anon
Parisian here. I would wear shoes these to walk to a restaurant in the evening. But if you’re walking around all day seeing sights, comfortable fashion sneakers are the way to go. Or sandals if it’s August and a billion degrees. Everyone in Paris wear sneakers, unless you’re eating at a Michelin starred restaurant no one will care.
Anon
Hi, all,
Looking for support and experience. I had a mammogram yesterday (not my first; I’m very good about keeping up with them). For the first time, I received a call today asking me to come in for an ultrasound of the right breast. I have dense breasts and they said there’s “overlapping tissue” so they need a better view.
I’m freaked, and I know myself and am going to be freaking out until the appointment, which is in a month(!). Anyone have experience with this? Kind words? Gentle support?
Anon
I’ve had this happen twice – they called it “asymetry” for me (also have dense breasts). One time it was absolutely nothing at all and the other time it was a simple cyst. I’m sure the same is true for you too. See if you can get on the waitlist for an earlier appointment to set your mind at ease, though.
anon
Yes! Been there, happened with my first mammogram. I was freaked out but it turned out that I just have dense tissue in certain areas. Chances are, you will be OK. They’re being cautious and trying to learn more. Big hugs!
Another GenX
This happens to me almost every time due to dense tissue. Luckily the ultrasound is painless, the room is dark, I usually fall asleep.
Anonymous
+1 – I have ‘dense breasts’ so get both an MRI and ultrasound every year. I’d ask them to make a note of it in your file so you can get both done at the same time next year instead of going back.
Good for you for taking care of your health – it’s not fun but so necessary!
Anon
I end up with an ultrasound every time. A few times the ultrasounds have been inconclusive and I’ve needed a biopsy. It’s really normal and nbd and for most people it’s just dense breast tissue and nothing more
Anonymous
My doctor routinely orders an ultrasound with my mammogram, as I have very dense breasts. And I think I read recently that pretty much everyone should have an ultrasound too(?). Don’t worry about it, this is just good care. It does take longer than a mammogram, at least for me, but is painless.
LawDawg
I don’t mean to scare anyone, but this happened to me pretty regularly and it was always nothing. Until last year, when it was something. But even so, getting the mammogram and the follow up is always worth it. Either they double check and send you home or you’ve identified something in the early stages. There is a reason that we all do these screenings and when they need to follow up, we should be thankful that we are getting the care and attention we need.
Anon
They warned me about this at my first mammogram and said to not be surprised if that happens – they just need better images.
Anonymous
Question: can you just request the U/S from the beginning? Isn’t that more accurate and less painful than those horrible plates anyway?
Anon
Insurance normally won’t cover it.
anon
These days they are recommending mammogram + ultrasound for women with dense breasts. In fact, in my state there is actually a law that states health insurance must cover this screening for free, as preventative care for women with dense breasts.
Anonymous
I asked this and apparently the mammogram/ultrasound give slightly different views so putting the scans from both together makes for the most accurate view into what’s going on.
Anonymous
I think you need both, but my doctor does and my insurance covers it. Obviously YMMV.
AIMS
My doctor does both and I’ve never had an issue with insurance.
OP, this is scary but doesn’t mean anything and usually ends up being nothing to worry about. And if it’s something significant, then it’s good to catch early. I dont know if this would help you, but I would tell myself that if they were very worried they would get me in sooner. As is, there is nothing to do now but to wait and hope for the best.
Anon
I end up being called back for more images and u/s every time. I also have had to have a biopsy twice, and results have been benign/normal each time. I think this is a plight of women with dense breasts and also a result of high tech imaging that can pick up more and leads to more follow up testing. The doctors and radiologists (and patients) proceed with further tests out of an abundance of caution mentality. And women are starting mammograms at younger ages (I’ve had this issue at every mammogram between the ages of 40-44 so far) when breasts are more “active” and result in more follow ups.
Best case and likely scenario is that you go in for the u/s and it’s nothing. I know it’s hard as I freaked out the first (and second and third…) time I got called back, but try to stay calm, distract yourself and take a wait and see approach until you can get in for your appointment. Also, advice I’ve received is that if it was something that is a real cause for concern, they’d get you in for your follow up appointment right away.
Sending best wishes and good thoughts your way!
Katie
Something very similar happen to me with my first mammogram. They wanted me to come in for another mammogram and an ultrasound for one breast, but then offered mean appointment 6 weeks out. My doctor assured me it was fine. After doing the ultrasound and mammogram, they reviewed while I was there and told me that they wanted to do a biopsy and, for that, they got me in a few days later. The biopsy was awkward but not terrible; I found the initial mammogram to be much worse. The biopsy turned out fine, but the doctor warned me that this may happen in another spot in the future because I have dense breasts.
The waiting is terrible, but know that for many, many people this all works out fine.
A
Relax, it’s most likely nothing. I had this and it wasn’t an issue.
Anon
Need to tell someone.
My husband told me a week ago he’s thinking of leaving me, but he still loves me.
I found out he slept with someone on a work trip.
I’ve asked for marriage counseling and he’s agreed.
I feel sick all the time.
Anon
I’m so sorry.
Anonymous
Oh you poor thing. I’m so sorry. I’d focus on you and what you want – do YOU want to continue the marriage knowing he’s broken your trust and treated you this unkindly?
Once you make a decision you can then look into counseling but I would explore your needs/wants with your own therapist ahead of joint counseling.
Anon
Regardless of what else you decide regarding the relationship, schedule a doctor’s appointment for an STI screening. Hugs.
Anon
Oh, I immediately asked if he used protection and when he said no, he immediately made an appointment for an STD screen.
I’m booked in tomorrow.
Thank you.
AIMS
I think this would make me more mad than the cheating itself.
I’m sorry you’re going thru this. Big hugs.
A
OMG – this is way worse than the cheating itself IMHO.
Anon
Make sure you go to your own counseling. I’m sorry. Please take care of yourself.
NYNY
I am so sorry you’re going through this. Think about what you want and need, and know that those things may change over time. I hope that you have a trusted friend who you can talk with, along with a therapist just for you. Sending so much support to you.
Anon
Oh, honey. You do not deserve this. Please try to take care of yourself day to day, as best you can (walks, yoga, drinking enough water — small things). And find a therapist, who can work with you to move through this. Thinking of you & offering a hug from this stranger.
Jules
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, and sending you virtual support and hugs. I agree with the advice to get your own therapist, in addition to a couples counselor.
Anon
I’m sorry. It doesn’t sound like couples counseling can save your marriage – get your own therapist instead and contact a lawyer.
Jules
Well, maybe counseling will help and maybe it won’t. I would not write off the marriage without at least exploring it – particularly since you suggested it (and assuming H will participate in good faith and not just go through the motions).
Anon
In a different situation, but one where my DH recently told me he was struggling with us because of something that happened in our past (not infidelity), which recent events/traumas outside of us re-triggered for him, and it made him unsure of our future. He also told me he didn’t want to feel this way and was working hard to be at peace, but needed space and support from me to heal. He was also going through a broader depressive episode due to other things (work, age, friends, family).
My world felt completely unmoored for weeks…I’m just now feeling close-ish to baseline. I also felt embarrassed, stupid, and angry. I love him, we are friends, we are intimate, we have small kids, and we’ve built a solid life together.
I posted this earlier but after reflection…DH had literally once of the worst years of his life recently. It turns out that while I thought I was giving 100%, to him, I was giving 40%. He felt unsupported, alone, and drained by the world at a time where he needed more support but I wasn’t giving it to him because I was focused on other things (work and kids).
Things are seemingly improving now…but I had to really figure out what I needed to keep afloat. What helped: therapy (I increased frequency from 1x/month to 2x/month), seeing/confiding in loved ones, and really, really understanding that his behavior and actions aren’t about me, but about what he’s feeling/responding to in the moment. Therapy has helped neutralize my own reactions and anxiety.
Hugs. Wishing you peace. Take care of yourself.
Anon
This could be true of OP, but cheating is where the marriage ends if it were me.
Annony
This is absolutely my personal bias because of things going on with my own husband and I am really not trying to invalidate or question your own experience of your situation of which I only know this tiny snippet, but …
When I read your post, I instantly resented your husband. Being focused on work (to keep your family financially afloat) and your children (because they need a loving, functional parent) IS giving 100%!!! It’s giving MORE than 100%!! It’s making up the difference for what he was seemingly unable to contribute! Which is not his fault – we all get kneecapped by life sometimes, but it doesn’t mean that you were a poor partner or deserve opprobrium.
He may have been feeling drained and alone and unsupported, but he could have also done the things you are doing … reached out to family and friends, increased his therapy … you aren’t supposed to be his only support system to the neglect of your own needs and other responsibilities.
Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.
Anon
Agreed.
Anon
+1. I have experienced similar dynamics and am so frustrated with the expectation that I am my spouse’s sole (not just primary) support. But my therapy and friend group (which takes work! As we have been discussing!) is just another thing I have and he doesn’t. We really do have a crisis of male friendship in this country.
anon
100 percent agree. This is bullcrap, hon.
Deedee
Thank you!
Deedee
You thought you were giving 100% but it turned out you were only giving 40%?!
Where did you find that extra 60%?! To me it sounds like you giving 140%!
Anon
Hard agree. This sounds like a case of wifey needing to be the listener and support and mother figure and earner and primary kiddo carer and and and. Yes I’m projecting, but it still made me vomit it my mouth a bit.
Anon
Sounding very familiar, I’ve been putting a lot on him (I have long covid, can’t work and need help with lots of things) and I’ve probably been too honest about how miserable I am and how hard it’s been.
Anon
Hug. Another hug. A third hug.
The only advice I have: do what you need to do for you. You can kick him out, move out, not speak to him outside of counseling, or continue life as normal. Just do what works for YOU.
Anonymous
Check out chumplady.
Vicky Austin
I’m so sorry. I wish you clarity and peace. Keep us posted; hope you can feel the love.
Anon
I’m so sorry, OP. I went through a horrible, painful, unwanted divorce a few years ago. I did everything I could think of to try to save the marriage. I have very mixed feelings about that now. On one hand, I can look back and honestly say I did everything I possibly could. On the other, I wish I had not wasted so much stress and let him essentially string me along for so long.
Once he finally moved out and I cut all contact (we did not have kids) everything improved exponentially. I’m not saying don’t try, but have an end point in your mind so you don’t waste endless time and emotional energy if it’s not going to work out.
I know it’s awful and I’m so sorry.
Anon
Thank you.
Anon
I’ve been there and it’s so so hard. Get your own therapist too, and focus on taking care of yourself.
Anon
I went through something similar 5 years ago. Husband was saying similar things and had an affair. We worked through it and him and our marriage are a 180 from what it was back then. It has been a long journey with a lot of therapy and change for both of us, but wanted you to know that there is hope.
Anon
Just wanted to say thank you for this.
Anon
Did he sleep with you after he had unprotected sex? Having a drunken fling is one thing (still awful) but knowingly then exposing someone you’re supposed to live and care about to STIs is solid divorce territory. So so sorry this happened to you. Glad he told you. Take as much time as you need to process this before making decisions (but do consult with the best divorce lawyers in town so they can’t take him as a client).
Anonymous
Ever since weaning my son a little bit ago my s3x drive is absolutely through the roof. For the literal first time in my life I am dabbling in taking care of needs myself. It’s also been like going back to the very beginning of my relationship with my husband when you first fall for someone and want to do it all the time. Has anyone experienced this? When will it go back to normal?! Can vibrators reduce sensitivity because I find myself considering getting one for the first time. Help!
Anon
It can take up to 6 months after you wean for hormones to stabilize. But in any case,I feel like every woman should own a vibrator.
roxie
you’re an adult who doesn’t own a vibrator??
Fix that asap.
Anon
I need help becoming more of a morning person. I am right now sleeping in until the last possible second (I WFH and if I have a zoom at 9, I will sleep til 8:45) and then rushing to get ready. Ideally, I would like to go to bed at a more reasonable hour and be up at 7:30-8 AM every day. The issue is that I get into these patterns of waking up super later, going to bed early, etc. Weekends make it worse because I sleep in. I don’t have the willpower to wake up at 7:30 if I went to bed at 1 AM, but also can’t fall asleep at 11 PM if I woke up at 9 AM, if that makes sense.
anon88
I think the trick is to wake up early one day, and get a decent amount of exercise so that by the time its evening you’re exhausted and ready to go to bed early. When I want to start waking up early I schedule some kind of treat for myself so I’m excited to wake up. E.g. promise myself I’m going to get the $7 coffee at the fancy coffee shop before work, or buy a new book I don’t let myself read until morning. Having that plan before I go to sleep helps me wake up more easily.
Anon
You have to just make yourself do it until it becomes your routine.
This was one of the reasons I hated working from home. I didn’t like the routine I got in and it’s hard to break it.
Milan
I have never had success gradually shifting (which is the usual advice). If I have let my early mornings slide and need to get back into it, I just stay up as late as I want one night (reading a book until 2am or whatever) and then just force myself to wake up at 6, no coffee after noon, no naps, stay busy all day and by 9pm I’m so tired I fall asleep easily. And then waking up early the next day isn’t as hard. I put all the lights and the wifi in my house on timers so everything shuts off at 10 – now staying up later than that requires real effort and it’s easier to just go to bed.
Anon
The best thing for me is to keep the same schedule on the weekend. I might have a short nap, but no sleeping in.
anonshmanon
same for me! DH sleeps in and enjoy a quiet morning to read a nice book, and see the garden wake up.
Anonymous
The only real way is to commit to a bed and wake schedule and make yourself do it every day until it becomes habit.
Anon
Unfortunately the key is to wake up earlier. You’ll never fall asleep early enough if you don’t wake up early enough. So if you don’t have the willpower, a few things you can try:
Leave the blinds open, or open the blinds when the alarm goes off at 7:30. Even if you go back to sleep, the sunlight will affect your circadian rhythms. When you do get up, go outside and get some sunlight for the same reason. Earlier exposure to sunlight -> earlier feeling of sleepiness.
This isn’t ideal long term since caffeine can make it harder to get sleepy at night, but if you do caffeine anyway, put a caffeinated beverage on your nightstand (diet Coke, canned coffee, whatever you like), and drink it when the alarm goes off at 7:30. Then go back to sleep. See if you wake up any earlier when the caffeine kicks in.
Anon
Put your walking clothes on the floor by your bed. Set your alarm for dawn. When it goes off, put on the walking clothes, go to the bathroom, throw on a hat and take a walk. Get outside and get sunshine.
When you get home, take a shower/brush your teeth/get dressed/ have breakfast.
After 4-5 days of this, you will not have any problem going to sleep at a reasonable hour.
Anonymous
I’m not a morning person either. My solution was scheduling a morning workout with a friend, so now I have an appointment. I also do sleep until right before meetings sometimes but I don’t really work in a place with camera on culture. I just put on my wfh outfit and eat breakfast during the meeting.
anon
hive mind– when your kids passed their drivers test, how did you ease them in to unsupervised driving? I’m not sure what the line is, like just let him go and hope for the best? a few weeks of basically still just driving with me? it will make everyone’s life easier when he drives to school but it’s a good half hour and some high way driving, he’s driven it multiple times with me but am i ready to just let him go on monday?.
Anon
Yes. He’s a licensed driver now. You let him go – that’s what this was all for. Some states will have restrictions on driving friends, but that’s it.
Anon
Getting my license was the indication that I was ready to drive alone. My parents didn’t let me get it until I was.
Anon
One of my kids went straight from her road test-literally from the parking lot-to an event on the other side of Atlanta at 5 PM. She had driven it with me dozens of times at that exact same time of day. IOW, we just ripped the band-aid off as to familiar routes. But that is exactly why we practiced those routes over and over and over.
Anon
Isn’t the period of having a learner’s permit the time for this?
Anon
+1
Sasha
When I first got my license, my parents did a few more rounds of supervised highway driving with me and quizzed me on the necessities–show me how you’d switch lanes, who has the right of way here, etc. etc.–, had me drive them places off the highway for a week or two, and then just let me go. My commute to school was similar to your son’s. It was nerve wracking for all of us the first few times! But it is one of those things that you really can only get confident at by doing hands on.
However–I was driving my mom somewhere the other day in my hometown, down our main street going maybe 30 miles an hour, not even switching lanes, and apropos of nothing she goes “Huh. I forgot what a bad driver you are.” so take my story with a grain of salt!
Anon
Well I had a 6AM Saturday sports practice two days after I got my license, so my parents were very, very happy to let me go and hope for the best :)
Carrots
I mean, maybe this is different because we didn’t live in a huge metro area, but I got my license, dropped my mom off for bagels with one of her friends, and then went to the grocery store and went back home (which was about 45 minutes from our license center). Two weekends later, I was driving across the state to take my brother and I to my dad’s for the weekend and did all the driving for weekend visits moving forward. I think the only time after I got my license that my mom hesitated letting me drive was the first really bad snowfall we had after I got my license and she made me take a certain drive to school that morning so she could follow me for most of it.
Anon
I had a 45 min commute to high school, about half of which was on the highway. I started driving myself to school the very next day.
Anon
Well from the second I got my permit my parents made me drive every single place I went with them, so by the time I got my license 6 months later I had drive it all: highways, the city, tight roads, blind curves, night time driving, rush hour driving, longer drives. You name it and I drove it. So, by the time I got my license I was free to go – I drove to the grocery store that night solo for the first time and then drove myself to school the next day. I had a sports game a few nights later that required driving about an hour away on the highway during rush hour and my mom didn’t even think twice with having me go by myself.
Anonymous
Let them go! By the time they get to the drivers test you should have driven with them enough that they are ready to be on their own. And actually on their own for a bit, no friends and start local.
Cat
I get that it feels weird to go from all driving being VERY supervised to none. I started with short easy drives on my own (10 mins on back roads to a friend’s house, 15 mins on the school run, or to my part-time job) and called my mom when I got there. More involved driving (super congested roads, complicated turns) I still did with a parent in the car for awhile after. Frankly I wanted them to because I didn’t like driving in those areas by myself anyway!
brokentoe
How confident of a driver is he/she? Are they a risk taker in other parts of their life? Are they generally a rule follower? Do YOU think they are a good driver? All questions only you can answer. Don’t be afraid to have them do more hours of practice than what your state requires – make sure they are comfortable in daylight, nighttime, in winter driving conditions if needed. Don’t be shy about setting up your own rules – other passengers in novice drivers’ cars are a huge distraction and greatly increase crash risk. Be familiar with your state’s Graduated Driver License laws and as a parent enforce them. Driving a vehicle is easily the riskiest thing we do every day – be sure your teen is ready for it.
Anon
I have a teen with a permit in a big city where major commuter arteries run through our neighborhood and this is where I fall. My kid (20 hours of the 60 behind the wheel required by our state) is still a very nervous driver, and I feel like this is 50% general anxiety and 50% because it is actually very scary. Some intersections have people going 50 mph routinely run the red lights. Sometimes there are sudden lane changes. With the time change, the sun is in your eyes and even great sunglasses only help so much. I feel like we have a minimum of 7 more months until the earliest to get a full license but if I don’t feel like driving solo is safe, we will practice more. And not every drive is equal. Kiddo could get to school and back, etc. But for some routes in our city . . . just because she can doesn’t mean she should, at least on Day 1. Ultimately, it’s my car and my potentially rising insurance and liability.
nuqotw
My parents said they weren’t ready to let me drive alone alone even after I got my license. For a short while there was no need or possibility of driving myself somewhere independently because they had two cars total and they each needed one. But soon after I got my license something came up where it was going to be majorly inconvenient for someone to take me somewhere, and they handed me the keys and announced I needed to drive myself.
Anon
I’m really bad about planning for expected financial obligations that don’t happen monthly. Can anyone help me comprise a list? For instance, my car insurance is quarterly. So far, I have insurance, vet care, and gifts.
Anon
For us the big ones are insurance (car, home, umbrella), property taxes, summer camp for kids. And I always anticipate a lot of cash flowing out in November/December, because we’re buying holiday gifts, attending holiday events and booking summer travel.
Anon
Property taxes, homeowners insurance, maintenance, landscaping, snow removal
Kid stuff if applicable
Car maintenance and repairs (oil changes, tires, belts, batteries)
Annual memberships: AAA, museums, zoos, professional affiliations not covered by your company
Charitable giving
Taxes if you ever owe
Any annual subscriptions: Amazon, Hulu, Netflix, gym memberships if not done monthly
Vacations, trips, recreation (including gear – ex golf clubs)
Annual events (Christmas parties, Easter egg hunts, hayrides, whatever your jam is)
Replacement of things that wear out or break: shoes, suits, clothing, pots and pans, luggage, laptops, cell phones, watches
Miscellaneous: hair cuts, hair dye, vitamins, lotions, skin care, sunscreen
—
Other option: look at your credit card statements from the past few years and divide your average spending by 12. This will sweep up all the little nitpicky stuff that adds up.
Senior Attorney
Car repairs/maintenance/registration
Home repairs/maintenance/taxes (if you are a homeowner)
Clothing
Vacation
Weddings (if you are in the demographic where that happens a lot)
Medical co-pays/prescriptions
Haircuts/color
Sports?
Education?
Hobbies?
anon for this
We have budget categories for “sinking funds” for things that we know will happen, but they happen infrequently. Some of our sinking funds include:
Any annual subscriptions
Income taxes (if you owe)
Car maintenance
Travel
Home repairs
End-of-year charitable donations
Anonymous
We save exact dollar amounts for insurance (car, term, personal articles), deductible, HSA, 529, Roth, and travel. If there are big bills for kid activities or tuition (and we can get ahead a bit) I save that $ also.
Anon
I do a sinking fund for annual fees: renters insurance, car insurance, subscriptions, gifts, approximate expenses for attending weddings, car inspection and oil changes, replacing technology (I just average it out – say I spend $600 on a phone and usually replace it every 3 years – it gets $200 / year into the sinking fund).
Anonymous
When you say this, do you keep that money in a separate account? Or do you just mean on paper you acknowledge it and make sure you have that money floating around but actually you always have enough to cover it all and more so it’s really just a notation somewhere.
Cora
I put it all in a separate savings account called “short term spending”. Not long term saving, like an emergency fund, but additional money I might need throughout the year.
Anon
Commenter from earlier here and I have a separate savings account specifically for annual expenses like this.
Cat
-Tech (I use my phone for long enough that it’s always paid off for a few years between upgrades, but the day does come for a new one)
-Car maintenance (annual inspections + any repairs)
-Home maintenance (HVAC service, seasonal costs like mowing or snow)
-Insurance
-Holiday tips
-Gifts (planned – holiday)
-Gifts (not planned – like someone is always getting married or having a baby)
-Travel budget
-Memberships and subscriptions (tbh Prime is on the chopping block for us as we are down to like 1x a month orders and the out-of-pocket shipping is probably less than the membership now…)
Anon
The only item I don’t see above is non-monthly utilities, if that applies to you. We pay our heating annually ahead of time each year so I know to budget for that.
Anonymous
Can someone give me a polite script for telling people they can not stay in my guest room? For context I own a row home/brown stone right in the middle of the city within 5-10 minutes walk of most tourist attractions and a basic hotel for high season would run a at least 2k for a week. People aren’t asking to stay with me because they want to see me, they just want to save 2k and visit my cool city. I don’t want folks to stay with me because we are in the middle of a renovation and the guest room is being used as construction central to keep the rest of the house functional, additionally we have dietary needs in our house and I don’t trust certain folks to not gluten our kitchen (even accidentally).
Anon
I’d probably blame the dietary needs. But really a simple “no, that doesn’t work for us” is enough. These people sound horrendously rude!! I’ve never asked to stay in a friend’s house unless it was a BFF and I was going specifically to visit them.
Ness
I was in the same situation when I returned to my home city and that is the best script, no excuses, no temporary situation. (And btw the same when I lived in London, acquaintances wanting a free hostel for their turist trip). Friends never impose in that way.
anon
“I’d love to see you when you come visit [city]. Life has been so crazy lately with our house torn up with a big renovation project – we barely have enough space for us, let alone any guest. Let’s grab dinner [or other activity] when you come into town.”
Anon
I don’t even want to share a space with my best friend in the world for an entire week and acquaintances are asking you to do it? Wow, the entitlement. I would say “hey, that won’t work for us unfortunately but I’ve heard ___ hotel is great. Have a great time!”
Anon
“No, that won’t work for us. Hopefully we can meet up while you’re here!”
Anon
I’d use the renovation as my excuse – “sorry, the guest room is out of commission with the renovation but we’d love to see you when it’s over”
Anon
I wouldn’t cite the renovation because they’ll just try again next year. “The guest room is my home office now so we’re not set up to host. Have a great trip!”
Anon
Oh I thought the main issue was the renovation. What’s the point of having a guest room if you don’t host?
Anon
You host people you invite – not people who are using you to save money on a hotel. That’s obvious.
OP
Guest room is primarily for our parents, siblings, and best friends, it gets used quite a bit. The guest room also has the second TV so it’s used when DH and I want to watch different things at the same time. House guests need to be safe people we know will follow house rules (especially about food).
Anon
Sounds like you no longer have a guest room!
Senior Attorney
“So sorry, that’s not going to work for us. Would love to see you when you’re in town, though!”
Senior Attorney
Haha jinx, Anon at 4:30 p.m.!
Cat
No excuses or they’ll be back again next year. Just say “so sorry, we don’t have a guest room but would love to see you while you’re in town”.
Deedee
“Sorry we can’t host – we have a lot going on. I know a lot people like this hotel or that home share site.”
Anon
How do all these people know you have a guest room? Was there a social media post showing off a lovely guest room or something? My social circle doesn’t even know whether my kids share a bedroom or not, how many living rooms we have etc and they wouldn’t know how many guest rooms we have!
OP
I’m guessing they have googled our address and found the real estate listing. Lots of people have our address from things like wedding invites and Christmas lists.
Anonymous
These seem like the kind of people who would ask to crash at your place whether or not you had an actual guest room.
Anon
“Sorry no. I no longer have a spare room due to renovation. Have a great trip!”
Then when they follow up saying they can sleep on the couch and won’t take up much room, just ignore. I’m serious. You’ve already answered.
Signed – used to have a 2 bedroom flat in San Francisco
Anonymous
My partner and I have 36 hours free in Boston next week. He’s never been, I have been many times as a child/teen but last visit was 2005. Suggestions for what to do or where to eat would be appreciated! We like museums, history and all things outdoors. We eat everything, but would like seafood for one meal. Thanks!
Vicky Austin
Somebody just recommended Beacon Hill Books to someone who had time to kill in Boston!
Anonymous
The Freedom Trail is a must do for a first time Boston visitor. You could also check out the JFK Presidential Library and Museum if you’re interested in JFK/his era of history. The Union Oyster House has both history and seafood. The nearby Bell in Hand is also good. My other favorites for visitors: Brattle Book Shop, the Public Garden, Copley branch of the BPL, Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, tour of Fenway Park, Improv Asylum. Boston also has a couple good food halls now: Time Out Market and High Street Place Food Hall.
Anon
Row34 for seafood in the Seaport. they have a great wine list and very good food.
I would definitely go to the Public Garden/walk around Newbury St. or Back Bay generally (Marlborough Street), and definitely wander around Beacon Hill on Charles Street and up Pinkney Street over to the downtown side.
Anon
What on earth is Bianca Censori doing walking around in see-through underwear (if you can even call it that) while paparazzi and others take pics of her body? I thought she was an aspiring model or actress desperate for $$, but it turns out that she is an architect with a master’s degree?!? Why is she exposing herself to the public like this?
Oy vey
I had no idea and now can personally relate to the word “appalled”. I didn’t realize he’d gotten remarried
Who is she (besides an antisemite)
Anon
Because she is an exhibitionist and that is how she gets her jollies? Because she likes attention ? Because she likes her body and wants to flaunt it? Because her husband likes it and she likes him? Because her husband likes it and she is afraid of him?
I mean there are all kinds of reasons people do what they do. What she wears or does not does not impact me so I am happy to leave her to it.
recording public streets
This is an interesting situation that seems like it has some kind of privacy implications?
I went for a walk in my neighborhood, staying on the public sidewalk, right next to the road. As I passed a house, a recording said, “Hi, you’re currently being recorded.” It seems like it’s a motion-censored camera as part of the home’s security system. I’ve seen signs to this effect on other houses or trees that are clearly in the owner’s yard, and the cameras are visible on the house.
This is the first time I’ve been so far away from a home, apparently triggered a motion censor in the middle of the day, and heard a recorded voice.
I assume this is fine, but it’s just weird. And then I wondered about legal implications around privacy, or if that camera captured a crime, would they be forced to turn over the footage to the police, etc.?
Anon
There is generally no expectation of privacy on a public street.
Some states might have wiretapping laws that require consent, so they are notifying you of the recording (and possibly sound). What state were you in?
Anon
Were you in my neighborhood? My around the block neighbors do that.