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Updated: Apr 5, 2019 365 Comments · by

Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Scalloped Wrap Dress

The Personal Shopper (TPS) |

This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. First, full disclosure: this dress is final sale, at least in most sizes and colors. It also has a ton of sizes left, which may or may not mean that something is screwy with the sizing. BUT, that said: it's got great reviews, and this is a crazy sale. For regular sizes, the dress was $89.50, then marked to 34.88, and now it's an extra 40% off. (For plus sizes there are two different prices for the colors; I believe only the gray is final sale, but proceed with caution.) Some other nice things while you're looking at Loft: this ponte flare dress with pockets, this best-selling knit blazer, and this great popover. Pictured: SCALLOPED WRAP DRESS This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support! Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.

Sales of note for 9.30.24

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Comments

  1. Cat

    Favorite SPF lip balm? Looking for one to keep in my beach bag this summer. The incumbent, Burt’s Bees w/ SPF 15, will be defeated easily due to propensity for trying to turn itself into honey even when in the shade.

      • Anon

        +1 this is what they sell at all the beach resorts and it really works. My husband likes the banana scent

      • Worry about yourself

        +1 I love SunBum! It smells and tastes great, it does protect my lips, and I’m not allergic which is a huge plus!

    • Anon

      I love the Fresh Sugar tinted lip balm with SPF, but that one definitely melts. I see it recommended all the time, but people don’t always talk about the melting (in case you were considering it).

      • Lilly

        You might like the Fresh Sugar Sport Treatment. It’s spf 30, good for lips, nose, and cheekbones, and based on recent experience, will sit in a beach bag all day in the Mexican sun without turning into glop. I found it to be moisturizing for my lips.

    • Anon

      Supergoop. It’s in a squeeze tube rather than a stick so it doesn’t melt.

    • Shopaholic

      there’s a Nivea one that is orange that I like (the container, not the balm).

  2. Replacement for Uggs?

    My beloved college Uggs have finally kicked the bucket, after 10+ years, and I’m trying to find a replacement. I know, I know, but they were really the best in terms of comfort and convenience, especially for walking the dog/going to the grocery store/running errands in the neighborhood (i.e., any situation where I didn’t care about appearances — I promise I never wore them to work!). I’m tempted to just get another pair but before I did, wanted to see if anyone had any recommendations on potential replacements that aren’t as dated but are still as convenient, especially for colder days (I’m in NYC). I don’t think Allbirds would be as easy to throw on because of the laces.

    • Anonymous

      Oh god no don’t rebuy Uggs in NYC. If laces are too hard try Toms or anyone of the athletic shoe company ballet flats. It’s spring. Buy shoes appropriate now, and next year get something wintery.

    • emeralds

      I never tie/untie my Allbirds, if that’s your main reservation. They suck when it’s wet out, though, which may be a dealbreaker for the winter in NYC.

      I will admit that I’ve hated Uggs for years, but ended up borrowing a pair from my SIL one weekend when the footwear I packed was not appropriate for our plans. And they were so. effing. comfortable. It felt like my foot was being snuggled by a cloud of warmth. So, you do you.

      • Inspired by Hermione

        Yes, this. They’re ugly as sin. But when I’m walking the dog/going to the store/out and about on weekends in the winter? They’re magical. Warm and cozy and perfect.

    • Anonymous

      what about sperry duck boots? they’re insanely comfortable, and don’t need to be tied or zipped or anything (they have outer laces and zippers but they just slip on)

    • Anonymous

      For me, I use LLBean heavy wool hiking socks with old-school Crocs when I need to take out trash, recycling, etc. I will wear that to the grocery store and around the house.

      FWIW, I had some feet issues last year and while all I need is a bathroom to get hauled off to Adult Protective Services, I swear my feet have never been happier.

    • Anon

      You do you! There’s nothing more confident than a woman who wears something she loves unapologetically. Get the Uggs and don’t look back or look for advice on alternatives here.

    • Cat

      Wait for the NAS, they usually have a few styles marked down, and some of them are sleeker than the versions from 10 years ago (narrower shaft, footbed that’s slimmer). The alternatives people are mentioning either (a) require special socks to be warm, (b) require laces, and/or (c) are not as weather resistant. I do NOT care if someone thinks I’m frumpy walking to the grocery store in 10 degree weather. My feet are warm!

        • Cat

          The OP didn’t say she wore them year round… end-of-winter is exactly when I evaluate the items I’m putting away for next fall and decide what needs replacing.

    • Anon

      The OP didn’t say she wore them year round… end-of-winter is exactly when I evaluate the items I’m putting away for next fall and decide what needs replacing.

      • cbackson

        Yeah, I wear them for dog walking/running downstairs to the mailroom/pre- and post- race travel. When I’ve been on a bike for 5 hours, nothing feels as good as putting my feet into fluffy comfy Uggs. They are kinda hideous but I’m too old to care.

        • Anonymous

          +1 I wear them as slippers around the house, but can still walk to the mailbox or go out with the dog. They’re just so comfy and warm. I am way too old too care.

    • lawsuited

      I have a pair of Allbird loungers which could solve your problem as there are no laces to deal with. But also, Ugg has really broadened its offerings so you could perhaps find a less Ugg-ly Ugg option (I have 3 pairs of Ugg boots although none of them are the Classic boot).

    • Replacement for Uggs?

      Thank you all! I will try the recommendations out. And yes, I know it’s supposed to get warmer but the Uggs were such a staple for me that I’m hoping to get them replaced ASAP, and maybe catch something on sale. Totally agree with the characterization “feet being snuggled by a cloud of warmth” (so hard to give up), and I may very well end up just getting another pair!

      • Never too many shoes...

        If you can wait until the autumn, Costco always has shearling boots that are almost identical for like $30.

      • trefoil

        I have ugg booties (bonham maybe?) that have held up well for two winters, slip on/off, warm enough for almost all weather (I wore them in -40 all winter). I got them when I discovered that Blundstones didn’t come smalll enough for my feet.

    • A

      Frye Celia Leather Boot or the LL Bean Wicked Good Ankle Boot is good or just buy slim black uggs and be done with it.

    • Worry about yourself

      I got a pair of shearling booties at Target last year which served me well, and before that I had some knockoff Ugg-like boots from Costco. Both were around 40-50 though, and I’m sure actual Uggs would’ve lasted longer than either of them, but I liked them and they kept my feet warm, toasty, and comfortable. And I DO wear shoes like that on my commute, and change into work shoes when I get to the office.

      I kinda feel like they’ve been around long enough that us Northern ladies shouldn’t be judging each other for wearing them with casual clothing (commuting, errands, walking the dog, traveling, etc.), in the place of sneakers when it’s cold outside.

  3. Abby

    Based on the model photo, thoughts on if this dress would be workwear appropriate (length wise)?

    • Anon

      I had the same thought. Dress length is 35.5″ and I usually need at least 37″ to make sure everything is decent when I’m sitting etc. (I’m 5’6). I definitely wouldn’t wear this without tights.

    • Anon

      You know, short people go to work, too. Yes, this dress is appropriate for work. What a height-ist comment.

    • PolyD

      I’m 5’3” and find 36” to be the right length for dresses for me. They come right about to the knee.

      Loft’s dresses are just too short lately. Work appropriateness aside, the proportions are off. Whenever I try on their dresses, the skirts are so short in proportion to the torso that I look like I am wearing a child’s party dress, or I look like two blocks stacked on top of each other.

      I’ve found Banana Factory dresses to be a much better length. And while I’m on the topic of Factorys, stay away from Ann Taylor Factory summer dresses. The last couple I ordered were made out of fabric more suitable for a slip or dress lining than an actual dress. WTF, ATF??

  4. Amelia pond

    Is there such a thing as v-neck camisoles? I have a couple of tops with a slight v neck that need a camisole and i would love it if I could find one that wouldn’t stick out from the v part of the neckline.

    • anon

      Yes! I have a few v-neck camis from LOFT. I think I bought them online rather than in-store.

    • Anonymous

      I’ve been seeing reversible camis lately (round on one side, v-neck on the other).

    • Anon

      I recently bought some v neck camisoles from Target’s A New Day brand, and they’ve held up so far.

    • Anonymous

      I’m 5’4″ with short legs, and it’s plenty work-appropriate for me in a non-petite size. The hem hits around the middle to bottom of my knee.

    • anon a mouse

      JCrew Factory has a “layering tank top” that is a V-neck on one side and scoop on the other, in a silky knit material. It’s fantastic. Currently on sale for $11.

  5. Anon

    Any tips for interviewing for a new job when you’ve been at your current job for under a year? I don’t want to look like a jobhopper, although I’ve been at my previous jobs for at least two years each. I’m thinking I should stay positive and mention what I like about new job, not what I dislike about the current – thoughts?

    • Anon

      You should definitely have an answer in mind if they ask why you are looking to leave after less than one year.

      • Ellen

        The answer is simple. “The job/boss/location is stinko! I deserve better, and this is better!” YAY!!!

    • lawsuited

      Yes, “I just couldn’t pass up this opportunity” is the only way to play it.

  6. complicated gift

    My in-laws gave us a lump sum of money, but they’ve asked for annual payments to compensate for the growth lost to their estate. We’ll probably be hashing out the details over the weekend.

    Any suggestions how we can calculate this? Or even start to discuss it, when we all speak in different “languages”? FIL is an economist, but doesn’t seem much for personal finance; I’m good with complex math and a bit of bookkeeping but not econ; DH focuses only on the numbers not the concepts.

    I guess what I’m hoping for is a proxy for economic growth, that will tell me ahead of time what the annual payment will be, and seems legit to FIL. Is there such a thing?

    • Veronica Mars

      This is bonkers. But if that’s their game, I’d look at the rates on a MM or CD and give that.

      • Anonymous

        Agreed. . . it’s called an interest payment, but they don’t seem to be asking for that (loss of growth is something different). Why’d they give you this money? (this feels like a fraudulent transfer)

    • Anonymous

      Huh? Just say no. Why accept a gift that’s actually partially a loan you have to pay back? If they aren’t comfortable losing the money tell them to keep it. You shouldn’t be paying them money because they saw a tax advantage.

    • Diana Barry

      Wut? This is not a gift then. I’d suggest doing up a promissory note and having the payments be the interest at the AFR (federal long term rate is 2.89% now compounded annually) so you’re not having intra-family gifts going back and forth. This is especially important if the lump sum is over $30K if given to your husband by both of them, or over $60K if given to both of you by both of them (annual exclusion).

      • Anonymous

        +1

        This is wackadoodle. Make a gift or do not make a gift. If they want to do something else, urge them to vet it with a real T&E attorney to make sure there is no inadvertent tax consequence to either of you. Then present the fully-baked idea to you to see if it is something you want to do.

      • OP

        Its not that big, and theyve specifically requested that it not be written up as a note.

        • Anonymous

          If it’s not that big, then none of this matters. This is bizarre. Say no.

          • lawsuited

            +1 If the “gift” is less than $30,000 and they still want annual payments for the “loss of growth of their estate” then I wonder if 1) they can really afford the gift or 2) you are getting into a weird semi-loan agreement with petty people.

    • Ms B

      Is this a gift or really a loan? It matters for tax purposes.

      Either way, documentation is your friend. You do not want the ILs to pass suddenly, only to have one of your DH’s sibs or the executor of the ILs estate make a lump sum demand for return.

      My suggestion is to use the Bret Whissel amortization calculator (readily searchable on the G), put together a calculation of how everyone wants to handle it, and then have an attorney document a short promissory note or put together gift documentation. Spending $500 for documents now may save you a whole lot more in the future.

        • Anonymous

          Then they should just pay off your loans (or a portion) or leave you alone.

        • Anon

          I don’t understand this – if they’re proposing giving you say 20k, but wanting some of it paid back through this complicated annuity thing, why can’t they just give you a lower sum, say 10k? Surely they will come out ahead that way, and it’s SO SO SO much less complicated and risky for you. Quite honestly, if they balk at just giving you a (significantly smaller) lump sum, I would assume they’re doing this for their financial benefit, not yours, and I wouldn’t want to get involved in the transaction without having an independent expert assess it and tell me if it was actually a good deal for me.

      • Ellen

        You need to put a condition subsequent on the money, so that if you satisfy the condition, you keep the money. I had something like this with Grandma Leyeh, when I agreed to take $50K if I had a baby. But I also had a condition precedent of having to find a boyfreind willing (i) to impregnate me; and (ii) to marry me. While I met plenty of men willing to have $ex with me, none would willingly sign an affedavit that they were willing to impregnate me, let alone marry me. As a result, I was legally responsible to return the money, but Grandma Leyeh forgave me and let me keep the money on the condition that I become less demanding and selective when it came to eligible men. I agreed, but STILL have not found a decent enough guy that I can stomach huffeing and puffeing on top of me, let alone impregnatiing me and marrying me! FOOEY!!!

    • Anonymous

      Sincerely, this sounds bananacrackers.

      If I’m reading this correctly, they gave you a financial gift and now you owe them installments back to them?!? And they are making you help them figure out the amount of those installments?!?

      The conversation I’d have this weekend would be to return the ‘gift’. Too many strings, too many complications.

      If they are concerned about their smaller estate after this ‘gift’ then they have no business giving the money away.

      Or maybe this is a method used by the rich to shuffle money around, methods of which I have no expertise.

    • Anonymous

      So dumb. They should either give you less or call it a loan and tie it to a rate as suggested above.

    • Anon

      This is weird. What you’re doing is taking a loan, only paying interest, and never repaying the principle.

      I think you need to run the numbers on this, because you could end up in the hole on it. If they think, for example, that their estate would grow at 7% a year, you’ll have paid them almost the entire value of the loan after 10 years. You’re taking all the risks of a market downturn (e.g., if the market crashes and their portfolio is half of what it used to be, you’re still paying them as if they are getting solid growth).

      • OP

        Thanks- that’s actually a very helpful explaination of why we’re tying this annual-thing to the market, iinstead of a numerical interest rate. I think FIL was trying to explain the same thing to me, but your phrasing made the light bulb go on.

        • Anonymous

          Don’t take this money. This isn’t a gift. It’s a disaster waiting to happen.

        • Anonymous

          “Interest” needs to be on a market value of borrowing or debt. If “interest” is based on an equity-like return, it is not true interest and you will need both a gift tax lawyer and an income tax lawyer to make sure this is right. It is wackadoodle.

          If they want to “gift” you 100K at 8% interest for loan repayment, just see what they are comfortable paying outright to your loan servicer. If they pay off just 5K or 10K, it is as easy as writing a d*mn check (and they can re-do every year if they want). [Or higher, depending on how the gift tax exclusion works (how many parents in law, if it is a joint gift, etc.)].

        • Anon

          But conversely, if we go through a few years of a really good market, you’re going to owe them 20%+ of the amount. Which is presumably way more than the interest on the original loans. And when does it stop?

          Basically, they are buying an annuity from you. Look up the rates for that. Spoiler: they are going to be significantly lower than average market returns. And consider whether it’s really a good deal on your end.

          • OP

            annuity–I think that’s the word I need to be able to research this and make a case they will understand.
            FWIW, I don’t think this is intended to be shady, it’s just bizarrely complicated. By 2nd-hand comments I trust, ILs regularly meet estate and tax planners, who always say “You’re in fine shape money-wise and legally, but this is a logistical nightmare–please simplify”. But that’s a whole ‘nother issue that hopefully won’t land in our laps for a long time.

          • Walnut

            My family loves dreaming up weird ass family financing like this. Don’t do it. You’re 100% better off negotiating with an unrelated third party who won’t hold Christmas holidays, a new family pet or if you buy too much takeout coffee over your head.

        • Anon

          Anon at 9:40 am.

          You’re a lawyer. You should know that there’s a difference between how people think things should be done, and how they actually should be done.

          My guess is that you want the loans paid off now, either because the interest rate will be lower when ‘borrowing’ from your parents, or to reduce your debt/income ratio. (FYI, this transaction with your parents will likely be something that you’ll have to explain to a mortgage company, because they will want to understand the repayment terms.)

          Your parents feel like they can ‘loan’ you the money, or they can take the hit to the principal but not to the growth of that principal.

          Here’s a better plan: the lowest possible interest rate that you can be charged without triggering gift tax problems is found in Index of Applicable Federal Rates (AFR) Rulings. Find that current interest rate, and draw up a loan document wherein you agree on a principal, that interest rate, and loan repayment terms. Take the money, pay off your law school loans, and repay your parents.

          Running the numbers: let’s say that you borrow $50,000 from them. You would pay them approximately $480 a month, or $5,800 a year, in interest + principal repayments, for ten years. If you did this weird “pay market rate interest but never repay the principal” thing, you would be paying them about $3,500 a year (increasing as the ‘interest’ on this fictitious ‘loan’ compounds).

          Just repay the money at rock-bottom interest rates. It’s better for everyone.

    • anon

      This is not a gift. It is a loan. And as such should be structured as a loan for clarity among all parties . What your FIL is requesting is essentially interest on the loan. The IRS has guidelines and rates. I would also look to current rates on Treasuries.
      https://www.businessinsider.com/charge-interest-on-loans-to-family-2016-11
      https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-lend-money-to-a-relative-without-getting-whacked-by-the-irs-2015-05-12
      https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-19-08.pdf

    • Anon

      I agree with everyone else – this sounds really shady. You may get in trouble with the IRS if you don’t do this right, and I’d want a lawyer-drafted agreement to protect myself case they demand repayment of the principal and interest.
      Fwiw, DH and I borrowed a much larger sum from my parents to make an all-cash offer on a house. We are repaying it, with interest, every month just like we would pay a mortgage. I realize it’s a huge privilege to be able to borrow money from family like this, and it’s been a huge help to us (we wouldn’t have our house without it because in our market you pretty much have to make an all-cash offer to be competitive). But we did it all above board with lawyers who drafted a promissory note, a set interest rate, and my parents are paying taxes on the interest income. I wouldn’t have been comfortable borrowing that kind of money from my own parents, let alone anyone else, without a lawyer involved.

    • Cat

      Honestly how high are the interest rates on your student loans? You are probably going to come out behind. Thank them for the offer but politely decline.

    • Anon

      Don’t ever borrow money from family, especially in-laws. “The borrower is slave to the lender.” It’s just not worth having a financial complication weigh down the relationship.

    • Anonymous

      I totally get what you’re doing. They were living off income from the principal, and offered to give you some of the money that was just sitting there so that you could repay your loans early, but now they have less money to accrue principal. I would ask what investments the money had been sitting in – if it was in stocks or funds maybe agree to whatever the 1-year average was the prior year, if it was bonds or CDs that’s fixed rate, right?

    • Go for it

      Give it back. It was not a gift. It is a back door annuity to benefit them. Take your own loan with zero entanglements. Uggh.

      • Anon

        +1… I’m fairly confident from reading all your responses that your in-laws are only doing this because they believe it will benefit them financially. That isn’t a gift in any way, shape or form, and you’d be crazy to accept it.

    • Senior Attorney

      Just to echo what everybody else has said, you will not be paying off anything. You will be trading one obligation for another and it doesn’t sound like doing so will benefit you in the long run.

  7. TorontoNewbie

    Any suggestions for a fitted, opaque, cotton, v-neck t-shirt in white? Really looking for one that isn’t see-through and am willing to pay more for ethically sourced manufacturing and cotton. Have tried KOTN but they’re out of v-necks and the fabric is still sheer.

  8. Anonymous

    After years of working, I am taking a break to go back to school. In the past, my weekend attire has been lackluster. I spent all my effort and money on my work clothes. Mostly a mishmash of yoga pants, T-shirts, jeans, and the rare piece from my workwear. I would like to use this break from work as an opportunity to improve my casual clothes. Most of my work clothes are business formal, so they are not well suited to a more casual environment (which I prefer). If you have a favorite weekend uniform, blog to follow, or recent piece you have purchased casual wear you love, I would appreciate all suggestions. Thanks!!

    • Irish Midori

      Check out yesterday’s thread on “fitting in” in a new more upscale neighborhood. There was a great comment on re-vamping the casual wardrobe. I think a lot of us are in this boat–the closet is all work clothes and cleaning the house clothes, but not much in between.

    • Anon

      What level of maintenance do you want when it comes to your weekend close? IMO there are levels of weekend wear:
      Athleisure (yoga pants and t-shirts)
      Fancy Athleisure
      Jeans and basic blouses
      Trendy jeans and blouses
      Sundresses of various levels

      • OP

        What level of maintenance do you want when it comes to your weekend close? IMO there are levels of weekend wear:
        Athleisure (yoga pants and t-shirts)
        Fancy Athleisure
        Jeans and basic blouses
        Trendy jeans and blouses
        Sundresses of various levels

  9. aananoanon

    A work event wit kids hyesterday carried on for an hour or so while a bunch of cops (plus emts on standby) responded to thankfully-inaccurate report of an active shooter outside. I dont think there was a better choice at the time than keep calm, carry on, and keep the doors shut.
    But in retrospect, with a day to process thoughts and feelings:
    Im really angry that the head cop told us it was okay to go by saying that “it was just some delusional parent making another fslse report”. I cant believe we all just went on for the rest of the event like it didn’t happen, and people seemed to buy the idea that of couse it wasnt real because it couldn’t happen here.
    I dont want to live in fear (and i really have chosen not to, in the face of fears), but I also dont know how to cope with this willful oblivion.

    • Anon

      It wasn’t real. Not because it “couldn’t happen there;” it wasn’t real because It. Wasn’t. Real.

      Be thankful that it was someone seeking attention via false reports and not violence.

    • Anonymous

      If you are in the US, remember that mental health care is woefully inadequate. Think of the kind of person who is horrifically demanding, accusatory, and cruel to a server at a restaurant. Now imagine that those aspects of a person’s personality have been augmented by untreated mental illness and troubled coping mechanisms. Now imagine that they behave this way so frequently that it’s held them back in life because no one wants to deal with them. They may not be eating out at restaurants much, but they still have access to librarians, police, nurses, etc., to yell at and demand things from. Many professionals who work with the entirety of the public are in some stage of burn out. I believe that police officer was entirely inappropriate to make a remark about a delusional parent. I have no reason to believe the parent who called in was delusional. But I’m confident that there are people who see something on TV, obsess over it, and harass the police about it because they are addicted to this and have to harass somebody about something.

    • Anonymous

      Huh? It wasn’t willful oblivion at all. The cops responded, everyone handled it well, it was clearly a false report and they told you so.

    • Anon

      It sounds like they investigated it and it truly wasn’t real. False reporting stuff is pretty common and statistically is more likely. Didn’t everyone’s high school occasionally receive bomb threats?

        • Skipper

          This disclosure re: toilets is quite possibly my favorite comment on the history of this site.

          • Belle Boyd

            LOL! I’ve got some really good stories along the same lines, but I’m not so sure the statute of limitations have run out yet!

    • Anonymous

      Reading between the lines, it sounds like you were really shaken by this whole thing, and that intensity and fear is now fueling some outrage that everyone else is seeming to carry on like normal.

      I’d give the reaction some more time to settle and your emotions some more time to come back to normal. Spending an hour with police, EMTs because of a potential shooter CAN shake up a person. Also, if you tend toward anxiety in general, recognize that you may be having an outsized reaction to this, and your perspective on it might not be trustworthy.

    • Senior Attorney

      Real question: What would you have had them do instead of going on with their lives?

      • OP

        Talk about it, even a little? This was an open-house/internal networking event where most people were mostly just casually chatting with their friends. Yet saying, “It was a little disruptive to go on lockdown for an hour,” people looked at me like I was the weird on for noticing.

        • AnonZ

          Honestly, if I’d been at the event, I probably wouldn’t have wanted to talk about it, because it feels like at this point, there’s not much to say. Especially in that environment. It would immediately turn into a gun control debate, the same one we’ve all rehashed a thousand times, and “a work event with kids” does not seem like the time or place to open that can of worms.

          I’m guessing people looked at you weird when you commented because they were trying to assess if your next statement was going to be something political, and bracing themselves for whatever that might be.

          • CountC

            +1 The threat wasn’t real. The police and other first responders came, addressed the situation, made sure everything was fine, and then went about their day. I would have had no desire to engage with someone in a conversation about active shooters because it never turns out well in a mixed crowd I don’t know well.

  10. Looking for advice

    I’m kind of grasping at straws here looking for advice. My boyfriend and I are living together and are very happy. We’re both 27. We both foresee marriage soon in the future. The one issue we have – and it’s a big one – is that he very much dos not want kids. Over the 3ish years we’ve been together, I’ve gone back and forth on my feelings on the subject. When we first got together I was pretty much in the no-kids camp, but I don’t know if it’s because of age or hormones or what, but I now feel pretty much like I do want kids. If I think about it long enough I can kind of talk myself into not wanting kids, but then thinking that I’d miss out on that experience…ugh. I just don’t know. I feel so torn. I don’t want kids any time soon – I think moreso around age 34 or 35 – but it’s still something that we have to think about. In case it’s relevant I’m a lawyer, he’s a doctor, we both have stable satisfying careers, but I would be happy to be a SAHM or go part-time if we had kids.

    Boyfriend and I have been having serious discussions about it because we both want to make sure we’re on the same page before we get married. Neither of us wants to hope that the other will change their mind. We both just want to do whatever we can to stay together but both still be happy…and I don’t know how to make this work. I guess I should also note that we’re not having arguments about it, we’re really just talking and crying realizing that we both want to be together so badly but disagree on something pretty big.

    Have any of you been in similar situations? What did you do? We’ve already talked about couples counseling and I’m looking into that today. Other thoughts have been continuing the relationship and revisiting this discussion when we’re both closer to 30, since it’s possible we could change our minds over time, but that seems like not the best idea. Also trying to think of “compromises” – I know it sounds crazy but we thought about getting a dog and seeing how we both take to “parenting” a dog together and seeing if that changes either of our minds about kids (like, it could make him more open to the idea of fatherhood, or I could realize that a dog satisfies whatever feelings I have). I’ve wanted a dog for years so this has always been part of the plan, but now looking at it as a sooner possibility.

    Thanks in advance for any advice. This is really tough because I don’t feel like I have anyone in real life that I can talk to about this, and certainly no one I know who’s gone through this.

    • Anon

      Sorry, but you can’t really compromise on this. It’s better to break up now than get married hoping one of you will change your minds, grow resentful when that doesn’t happen, and then end up divorcing. A dog isn’t a replacement for a kid. You’re still SO young, cut your losses and get out now.

        • Anonymous

          +1

          Been there, left that, never looked back. The month after I left, he got engaged to someone old enough to be in menopause, so the writing on the wall hadn’t been a surprise to him. I don’t know why I was so insistent that it wasn’t there when it was practically shouting to me daily.

      • Is it Friday yet?

        This. You cannot have half a kid in hopes it satisfies both parties. If you are sure you want kids he is not the right guy for you.
        Anecdotally, I am mid-30s, and have a close friend who has been with her husband for like 12 years. She wants kids, he doesn’t (in fairness, this has not been the static situation the entire time, but it has really gelled the last 5 years or so). She thinks about leaving him so she can find someone else, but doesn’t want to a) leave someone she loves and has built a life with for so long, and b) have to find someone new at 35 in a limited time frame and with the emotional baggage of divorce. I suspect if she could go back to 27, she would not have married him, great as he is. (And they have had a collection of elderly, special needs dogs which have neither satisfied her urge for children nor made him any more inclined toward parenthood)

        • Anon

          I know a couple of women in this situation – with their husbands or boyfriends for a decade or more, hitting mid/late thirties, and they aren’t moving forward towards children or marriage.

          Whatever decision you make on children, it should be one that YOU make, not one that he makes via indecision, foot-dragging, etc., until your time runs out.

      • Anon

        Yup. And I’m someone that changed my minds about kids, so I know people can. But I went from not wanting them to wanting them when I met my DH (who wanted them). The problem is that you guys are moving in opposite directions, not towards each other, on this issue. And this is one of the few things you have to ultimately see eye-to-eye on to have a successful marriage.

      • Anon

        Agree.

        You’re 27. Do not wait around until you are 30 and further invested into this relationship. Do not throw away three perfectly good years in which you could find someone.

        Understand that you can’t just pop out into the dating world, find someone, and have kids without any problems at age 35. There are plenty of places for things to go wrong there.

        Do NOT get a dog together as an experiment. Dogs are sentient beings with emotions and puppy psyches, and they do not need the upheaval of being chucked aside if/when the relationship ends. Get a dog if you really, really want a dog.

    • Anonymous

      Break up. Don’t keep giving a relationship that won’t lead to the life you want your precious time. Don’t adopt a dog instead that’s too ridiculous for works. It’s sad and hard and be grateful you’re figuring this out now before it’s too late.

    • anon

      I would not push this decision off for another three years. That’s not going to make things easier, and you’ve both effectively lost a big chunk of time to find other partners if you still can’t come to an agreement.

      And I’m saying this really gently, but having a pet is NOT a proxy for figuring out if you want a human child in our lives.

      I’m sorry, this really sucks.

    • Anonymous

      I was with a boyfriend whom I loved very much for years. When I was about your age I asked him if he wanted kids. He said, “Im happy being an uncle right now.” Yeah…. that was not really an answer. I didn’t want him to jerk me around for the next few years so I broke up with him. It took me a few months to build up the nerve (see loved very much).

      Now I am married to someone who said he wanted kids within a few weeks of dating. We have been on the same page since the very beginning. Your boyfriend has made it clear that he doesn’t want kids, you seem like you do. Break up now. You are very young. Be with someone who wants the same things out of life as you do. It really is one of the most important things in a relationship. I wish you the best, I’ve been there!

    • Anon

      I’m sorry, but you should break up now. It’s going to take time for you to get over it and explore the field – years. A dog is not anywhere close to a substitute for a kid and taking care of one doesn’t mean you’ll enjoy the other. It’s true that you could both change your mind, but that’s no reason to stay together – maybe you can agree to call each other and rekindle if you’ve altered your stances.

    • anon a mouse

      You need to assume that no kids is the price of admission for a relationship with this man. Is it a price you are willing to pay? If you are 100% on board, then fine. But if you think that you will change your mind later, you owe it to both of you to get out now.

    • How Long

      I was ambivalent about children, but probably knowing in my heart it was a no. My ex husband was ambivalent, leaning heavily toward yes. After trying for over a year, it became clear I wasn’t going to get pregnant, and that put me very firmly in the “no” camp. It pushed him into the “yes” camp. There was a constellation of factors in our divorce, but I think the divide over children was a huge gulf that could never have been overcome, no matter what. It was a huge factor.

      In short— this is not an issue you can compromise on. Getting married hoping one member of the couple will change on a huge issue is not workable.

    • Falstaff

      If you talk yourself out of kids for his sake, there is a very high chance that in 10 or 15 years, you will be filled with seething resentment toward him. I’m sorry.

    • Cat

      I’m sorry but you should break up. Be grateful that he has been honest with you that he does not ever want children, rather than leading you on with comments like “I’ll want them someday, not now though.”

    • Anon

      I agree with everyone else that hoping he will change his mind is a fool’s errand, and is setting you up for a lifetime of resentment and quite possibly a painful divorce down the road.

      That said, I think you can decide that you love this man more than you love the possibility of kids, and decide to stay with him and accept that children are not in your future. If you do this, I’d recommend working with a therapist and/or couples counselor to make sure you’re really accepting his decision, and not just burying your feelings about it. I have a friend who very much wanted kids and fell in love (in her 20s) with a man who was sure he did not. It was a painful road for a while – they went to therapy, separated for a while, got back together with more therapy, etc. But ultimately she chose to give up kids and marry him. We are 40ish now, our window for biological children is closing and most people who have kids have elementary schoolers that are at really fun ages (too old for tantrums, too young for teenage sassiness). It’s the age when I think someone who had hoped for children but didn’t have them might really start to feel regret about their decision. My friend tells me she can’t imagine her life without her husband and she made the right decision. So I think it can work. But I think you have to be very honest with yourself and listen to what your gut tells you about whether you love him enough to accept you won’t have children. Either answer is completely valid.

      • Anon

        This post really hit me hard. As a single late 30-something, it can be easy to feel like I’m better off than my friends struggling with screaming toddlers or pumping. But it’s going to hit hard in five years when everyone’s kids are at that adorable elementary school age.

        • Anon

          Sorry, wasn’t my intent to hurt people who don’t have kids but I can see how it reads that way. Kids do change your life in very significant ways and any parent who tells you otherwise is lying. And they dont’ stay adorable forever, eventually your friends will have bratty tweens and teens and I’m sure you’ll be hearing about all the associated drama. If you want kids, I hope it happens for you. Hugs.

          • Anon

            Aw, thank you for this kind response. You did not need to apologize! Thanks for sharing this perspective.

    • Anonymous

      How desperately do you want to be with him? I think we all know women who wanted babies badly, the man didn’t, so one night there was an oops. Most good men will go along with it once there’s a pregnancy. Though keep in mind if you do it this way, it’s unlikely to turn out like a hallmark movie where he discovers being a father was what he truly needed. More likely he’ll just get out of home life by working 24-7 and you’ll do everything for the home and child, but he’s a dr so money won’t be an issue and you’ll have a kid to occupy your life/time. Wouldn’t be what I’d do, but it’s tried and true.

        • Anon

          Regardless, she does a drive-by on a serious issue: no birth control is 100% reliable, and the most reliable birth control (aside from a man getting snipped) has side effects for women, and involve her taking a pill every single day or getting something implanted in her body. That’s a tough pill, pun not intended, to swallow when you want kids and he doesn’t.

          Are you okay being 35 years old, wanting kids, and popping a Pill every… single… day? What happens if you use birth control reliably and responsibly, but still get pregnant? Do you trust this man to be a good husband and father, or to resent you for the kid he never wanted but you want?

          • Anonymous

            If he says he doesn’t want kids but doesn’t get snipped, we have bigger problems here.

          • Anon

            Agree with Anon at 12:58. If he doesn’t want children, getting snipped should be a no-brainer (and would be, for most of the childfree-by-choice men I know). If OP wants to stay with him, I’d recommend doing the V before they get married. It will probably help her accept that the decision is forever. Her biology will eventually make the decision permanent, so better to just make it permanent up front and not run out a fertility clock.

          • anon

            As someone who knows, having to take a pill every. single. day. is a bit painful when you really want a baby but partner does not. It’s like a daily reminder that you are thwarting your body’s natural tenancy to make babies. I sign on to the V-before-marriage solution suggested if this is the compromise.

    • Anon

      You’re not compatible enough to be married. There is no compromise for this. Cut your losses.
      And please drop the idea that sharing ownership responsibility of a dog with someone is anything like parenting a child. It might fulfill some emotional need to nurture, but they are entirely different worlds of responsibility and attachment.

    • K

      You will have a much better experience looking for a new partner at age 27 than you will the longer you wait.

      • Anonymous

        This. Late 20s and early 30s is when many couples marry and have kids if that’s what they want. The available single men at 27 are more than 30 and certainly more than at 35.

    • Skipper

      I have a contrarian opinion here. I met my husband ten years ago when I was in my late twenties and on the fence about kids. He was firmly in the no camp. I spent some time really worried that I’d regret missing out on the experience of having kids. I spent some time in therapy trying to unpack my actual Big Feelings on the topic. Here’s what I came up with finally: if my relationship stayed exactly the same forever, would this work for me? Am I fundamentally happy here, with this guy? I would be happy and I was happy. There’s no guarantee that -any- relationship is going to result in 2.3 children and a golden retriever, irrespective of your heart’s desires. Is what you have enough? For me, it was enough.

      We got married, and we don’t have kids or a pets or living houseplants. But we hang out with each other all the time. We don’t bicker over chores or emotional labor. We take fun vacations and have loads disposable income. We drink a bottle of champagne and have tipsy sects in the living room sometimes. We’re involved in the lives of our siblings’ children and our friends’and available to help our aging parents. We contribute a lot of money to charity. I’m pursuing a career change that is bringing me a lot of joy and would be out of the question both financially and time-wise if we had little people at home. Life without kids can be as rich and as amazing as life with.

      • Senior Attorney

        This is a great point. I may not be competent to comment because I did have a child, but honestly being a parent over the long haul is a profoundly mixed bag. I offer you two anecdotes:

        1. A friend who left a man she loved, and a relationship in which she was happy, because she wanted a baby and he didn’t. Fast forward several years, she now has neither the man nor the baby and wishes she’d kept the status quo.

        2. My own lovely husband was married to his late wife for 27 years back in the days before reproductive technology. They both wanted children but it didn’t happen and they had a lovely marriage and a fine and fulfilling life nonetheless. So plus a million to “life without kids can be as rich and amazing as life with.”

        And also, if nobody has posted it yet, check out Dear Sugar’s The Ghost Ship That Didn’t Carry Us: https://therumpus.net/2011/04/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-71-the-ghost-ship-that-didnt-carry-us/

        • Looking for advice

          This is the OP. Thank you to both of you, this is the kind of advice I was looking for. I feel like I’m exactly in the situation you described. I’ve been on the fence and have gone back and forth, and since he’s firmly no it’s starting to freak me out.

          I think the language I used in my original post was more intense than I intended. It’s not that I solidly know I want kids now – it’s that, I think because of my age and those around me, I’m suddenly having the freak out about what happens if I miss out on this?

          I think what I really need to think about is what do I want out of life, and can I be happy in this relationship for the rest of my life without kids. I think the answer is yes, but my panic on missing out is making me question things and was the impetus for my original post.

          And thank you especially for that Dear Sugar article.

          • Senior Attorney

            Hugs, OP. I think part of it is just deciding to be happy with the hand you’re dealt, too. You miss out on things in life. We all miss out on things. None of us gets to have everything we want. And do not think for one single minute that having children is a guarantee of happiness. Hoo boy. No siree.

            More hugs. It’s hard.

          • anon

            +1 to Senior Attorney.

            Also, this sounds terrible, but we don’t always get the kids we picture. Some people envision a daughter and have a son. Some people have children who are disabled or have other issues that require a lot of support. Some people end up estranged from their adult children. On the flip side, you could stay with your boyfriend and marry him, and life could still deal you a great hand or a lousy hand.

            OP, it’s OK to decide that you’re OK missing out on being a parent, or that it’s a deal breaker. I think part of the struggle is that you can’t know now how things will work out if (a) you stay with your boyfriend, or (b) you move on and build a different life.

        • The original Scarlett

          I definitely co-sign life without kids can be very rich and SA’s advice, too. In some ways, if you’re okay not having them but you could, that might make your relationship easier over time. I never wanted kids, and hated being told I’d change my mind, but I’ve seen a lot of men change their minds as they get older. If your BF ends up being one of them, the fact that you’re open to it could keep that day from being an issue.

      • Another anon

        Skipper, I’m in my late 30s and have basically the same life as you. I went through a phase where I kinda wanted a kid but my husband was still a hard no on the issue, and I wasn’t interested in trying to pressure him into saying yes. I’ve seen too many women talk their husbands into having a kid and then they end up being the primary parent and doing all the work, which is fine for some people but not for me. I also knew that I wanted my husband more than any potential child. What helped for me was really leaning into the rest of my life, including being an aunt and a mentor. I idly wonder from time to time what it would be like to have a kid, but I am 100% happy with the path I’ve taken.

        • anon

          Skipper, thanks so much for sharing. This is almost me, but we met later and are not yet married. I’m mostly at peace with this BIG LIFE CHOICE, but not quite all the time, so hearing about happy childless people helps so much.

      • Dog

        This is not advice, as much as what happened to me. Similar boat, except I was already married. Husband was looking around at all his friends (he grew up in the South/Christian/Baptist circles) and saw all his friends with kids and mentioned he was sad because we didn’t have any + had serious baby fever. I never wanted a dog, but work biglaw and long hours and thought this would be a perfect fix, so I bought him a dog. Needless to say, I fell in love with the dog and I think it was an incredible addition to our family.

        HOWEVER, dogs are a huge responsibility and I do not recommend getting one unless he is on board and you know that dogs are neither a tool to make him want a baby nor a replacement for a baby–though you’ll feel like you won’t ever love anything as much as you love the dog. For what it’s worth, getting a dog taught us many helpful things, like he was not ready to have kids or be responsible for someone that needs to have puppy-level attention for YEARS (vs. a few months), that I do not function well AT ALL on little sleep (like actual psychological issues), that maybe I kind of want to have kids sometime (not sure, but it did open me up to what having a third “person,” with needs, etc. would be like and that it can be nice sometimes), and that we can love something other than us and nourish it in a way that is fulfilling to the three of us.

        I also think getting a dog with someone you are not married to can be super hard. My friend just broke off her engagement and they share the dog. It’s not fun for anyone.

        So maybe the answer is leave if that’s what your heart is calling you to do and get a dog.

    • lawsuited

      First, I am so sorry you find yourself in this position. Second, you both need to walk away. Having children is such a life-changing thing that I don’t think your BF will be able to have a happy life if he has kids and didn’t want a life with kids, and you won’t be able to live a happy life if you don’t have kids and wanted a life with kids. It can work if one spouse feels strongly and the other is truly ambivalent, but that’s not your situation. You’ve admitted here that you want kids and spending your life suppressing that feeling and then grieving that loss will fill you and your relationship with pain. There’s no reason why you can’t build exactly the life you want with someone else you wants to same life.

      • Anon

        I really disagree with this ” There’s no reason why you can’t build exactly the life you want with someone else you wants to same life.” I think sometimes people act like it’s automatic to find a different partner that you love just as much. But it’s not, even at 27. It’s likely, but not a sure thing. Walking away from this relationship is no guarantee she’ll find love again with someone who wants kids or that they’ll be able to have kids, and I think promising her that it is is doing her a disservice.

        • Anon for this

          +1

          As someone who is single in her 30s now, I might not be able to have the life I’ve always wanted for myself and coming to that realization has been difficult and painful.

    • Anonymous

      Adding a caution that you shouldn’t wait as long as 35 if you plan to have kids. Fertility decreases throughout your 30s. 35+ is considered high risk for advanced maternal age. You don’t have forever. Lots of people have healthy pregnancies after age 35 but your risk factors for many issues increases.

      • anon

        God, stop. Yeah, I’m sure OP hasn’t ever heard that a woman becomes barren husk at 35. Thanks for the PSA.

      • Anon

        The risks increase very slowly and steadily though. People talk about fertility and pregnancy complications like it’s some cliff you fall off of on your 35th birthday. It’s not. A 38 year old has marginally more risk than a 35 year old who has marginally more risk than a 32 year old who has marginally more risk than a 29 year old etc etc.

        • Anonymous

          She is 27 now and plans to try for a baby around 34/35.

          “fertility starts to decline steeply by the age of 35” + “research shows that many women don’t realize how quickly their fertility can drop, and how early that can start to happen. Many of us also don’t know that fertility treatments cannot always make up for that decline.”

          Source: Society of OBGYNs of Canada – http://pregnancy.sogc.org/fertility-and-reproduction/age-and-fertility/

    • Anon

      This hits hard and is super timely – I was thinking about writing a related post today. I’m you, five years in the future. Husband has always been firmly in the “no kids” camp, and I was told I’d have severe medical complications in getting pregnant. Seemed like a win at the time. Fast forward to 33, new, different doctors have basically said they see no issues in me getting pregnant, and the baby fever has hit HARD. Seeing my friends with their children has been so eye opening, and I want them now. So. Bad. However, husband is still in the no go camp, so i’m at a loss what to do. Objectively I realize its insane to make any drastic changes – time is running out biologically, i’m pretty average in the looks/humor/intelligence departments; i travel for work all the time, and live in a small town. The odds are stacked against me. I’m so angry at myself for having these feelings now – I feel like i’ve done a total bait and switch with my husband, which is incredibly unfair. I’d say probably better to leave now, unfortunately, because the feelings are only going to be compounded in five years.

    • BabyAssociate

      I have been in this exact situation (I was the person who absolutely did not want kids). I’m sorry, but the answer is you break up. It will be awful, but it will be so much easier to do now. I would never assume that either of you will change your mind, that just lays the ground for a lot of resentment and an even worse breakup in the future.

    • Anon

      I was the firm no-kids person and my husband felt very strongly about wanting to be a parent. We talked it out when we were young (meaning under 20), then agreed to consider fostering when we were older and table the discussion for the meantime. He told me in our 30s that he would not want to co-parent with anyone except me, so he didn’t see the point in starting over with someone new. We are now in our 40s and he has come to realize that he does not actually want to bring a child into the world. He gets fulfillment from being a teacher, a mentor, and an honorary uncle to his best friend’s son.

    • Looking for advice

      This is the OP. Thank you everyone for the advice. As much as it hurts to read ‘break up’ I appreciate that everyone has the best intentions.

      I think I should clarify because my post might have been misinterpreted. I’ve been on the fence about kids and have wavered back and forth. It’s not that I’m solidly in the “I need kids” camp now. It’s that I’m suddenly starting to question it and it has me freaked out. I think it’s more of a question of what do I want out of life, will I be happy in this relationship forever without kids, and is being with my boyfriend worth the “price of admission” as one of you put it? These I think are the questions I’m going to have to answer for myself.
      Also to clarify – I definitely don’t think having a dog is the same as having a kid and I apologize if it came across that way. I love dogs and have intended to get one for years, not just for an “experiment” of parenting the dog. My thought is that maybe my fear of missing out on nurturing something will be eased by having a dog that I can nurture. I guess that’s just another way of me guessing at how I want to see my life in the future without kids.
      It’s really tough to be unsure about this and have to make decisions now when potential parenthood seems so far off, but I guess it’s time for me to figure out what I really want out of life, and I have no clue how to answer if kids are definitely part of that.

      • Anon

        I think it’s important to remember that the question isn’t necessarily “will I be happy in this relationship forever without kids.” There is no guarantee that this relationship is forever. It’s entirely possible that you end up divorced at 40 regardless of whether you have kids or not. I think you have to ask yourself if you are okay being “forever without kids,” whether this relationship lasts or not?

    • Anon

      Break up. Sooner rather than later so you can both move on to find what you want and need from a partner.

    • Miss

      Echoing everyone else, you should break up now. I don’t want kids. I never have. Everyone thought I would change my mind. I haven’t. I like kids, I enjoy being around them and interacting with them. I don’t want my own. I’d be a great mom, but it isn’t a role I want. I’m an aunt and that didn’t change my mind. I have friends with kids and that didn’t change my mind.

      I have a dog and I’m sure outsiders think she’s a kid substitute. She is not. She is an adult animal who provides companionship and relies on me for her needs. I take care of her well and pay for dog walking and make her food. I enjoy taking care of her but she’s also very self sufficient. Apart from walks, bathroom breaks, and food, she is content just to be in the same room with me receiving occasional pets or toys. I spend a fraction of the time and attention on her that parents do on their children.

      You really want this relationship to work so you’re hoping for the outcome where you’re both on the same page, but this is a big issue and that’s very unlikely. You need to find someone who agrees on the big issues with you. It’s better to rip off the bandaid now.

  11. BensonRabble

    Hi all!

    I am starting grad school for policy in DC and am wondering about appropriate dress. I have been out of school for some time so I do have a lot of business casual fit and flare dresses/ankle pants and dusters to more formal suiting pieces. Im comjng from the West Coast so Im not sure whats common. I plan to focus on internships and networking so I assume I wont be dressed like my undergrad days : )

    And if anyone has done international relations or has tips about DC, that would be awesome.

    • Anonymous

      Jeans or leggings and tops or skinny pants and blouses unless you have an event.

    • Falstaff

      If grad school in DC is anything like law school in DC than leggings and yoga pants are totally fine for class.

    • Anonymous

      The students in my public policy master’s program dressed like students unless there was a career event, in which case thei wore suits.

    • Eleanor

      Recent DC-grad-school attendee, here (I did law, not policy, though I have some friends who did joint degrees–including ones in international relations or national security).

      I’d say that whatever you want to wear is fine. I wore athleisure at times (one of the great things about being a student is that you can wear yoga pants to class and then run to 3:00 yoga class without changing…). Sometimes I wore business casual when I was hopping between class and internships. I often wore jeans and a blouse or sweater, or I’d wear casual dresses when the weather was warm.

      But, anything goes for the most part. You’ll see the whole range of clothing. Don’t be the person that wears suits all the time for no reason; wearing a suit is strange unless you are coming to/from an internship or networking event. Otherwise, attire will run the gamut from athleisure to business casual. Wear what you are comfortable in.

  12. Diana Barry

    PSA: Make Up For Ever is having a 25% off sale on their own site and they have the foundation minis available – great if you don’t wear it often (like me) and just for special occasions. I have been using the seph*ra samples but they never stay closed during travel. I promise I don’t work for them! :)

  13. Anon

    DH and I are going to Italy in September and will be spending a few days in Riva del Garda. I actually found out about Lake Garda because of this board, but it seems like there are not a ton of English language resources about Lake Garda. Like– it seems like there are way more things to do than I have been able to find myself. Has anyone else been and what did you do? Right now, I’m interested in going to Malcesine, Limone, and Arco, which are all within a 15 min drive of Riva. However– I’m not really sure what there is to do in each place other than look at the cute towns.

    Also– has anyone driven up into Trentino from Riva? I was looking at going to Arco–> Lake Toblino–> Trento (?) before turning out car back into Verona on our last day. Is this worth doing?

    • Anon

      There is great hiking near Riva del Garda and really, all around that area. It’s an excellent wine region, definitely go explore that – and I think there was olive growing in that area as well. Get out on the lake, definitely use the ferry, do a boat or sailing tour. There are a bunch of options, and quite a few things on Viator. You do sort of go there to relax and have a few slow days, away from days full of church-museum-art-ancient sites overload. You can get some of those things if you want them, but it feels way less intense. Here are a couple links, but if you have found things that look interesting on Italian sites, see if you can set your Chrome browser to translate.
      https://wanderwisdom.com/travel-destinations/A-Rough-Guide-to-Italy-Things-to-Do-in-Lake-Garda
      https://www.thecrowdedplanet.com/things-to-do-lake-garda/

      • OP

        Thanks! Those are really helpful. We were generally looking to chill for a few days at the end of our trip (but wanted to cover anything that was a must-do or super unique to the area), since we have realized we get sightseeing fatigue after a bit, and we will have been to Venice and Florence already at this point in the trip.

        • Anon

          Glad that helped! I also remembered looking at one of those links – look into their wine festival dates – I think they have a wine festival in late September, you might overlap.

    • Anonymous

      You can cute town hop by boat, there are charters in Riva. Ask your hotel to recommend one. If you want like to windsurf, kayak or goof around in a paddle boat, those are also great options. We hiked one day but didn’t find that awesome (too much like Santa Barbara, dry scrub hillside).

  14. Anon for this

    I found out last night that my husband has been lying to me about financially supporting his mother. We’re in our early 30’s, one child, big mortgage, high incomes, high childcare costs. When his mother was retiring and relocating, I was very clear that I was open to some kind of financial support down the road, but it was important to me that she was self sufficient at this stage. She is 70, single, and has $500k. Husband told me his brother was going to buy her house and that she was going to pay him rent. Turns out that was a lie and they split it 50/50. Our finances are completely commingled, as we married young before either than any assets. He has been deliberately splitting the payments into multiples so as to not attract my attention.

    When I asked him about it, he said he lied because he knew I was going to disagree and it wasn’t worth fighting over because it was something he had to do. He was completely unapologetic.

    I think I may have to end my marriage. It isn’t even really about the financial piece (which is less than $15k/year) but I feel completely betrayed and like I can’t trust him. At a minimum, I want to unentangle our finances while we sort this out, and probably going forward in any event.

    Any advice, words of encouragement, or thoughts about logistics would be so greatly appreciated. We’ve been together since I was 17 and I’m devastated.

    • Anonymous

      Get a divorce. I’m so so sorry but this isn’t a marriage any more. He lied deliberately to avoid communicating with you and doesn’t feel bad. You have drastically different values. I’m so sorry.

    • anon

      I’m sorry you’re in this situation, which sounds awful. I would also be livid. I would consider talking to a therapist (solo as well as couples’ counseling) and a lawyer before making any decisions. It sounds like you were blindsided by this, and you shouldn’t make any decision while you’re reeling (which I would be too).

      • Anon

        +1 to all of this. See how you feel once the immediate (justifiable) anger calms down.

      • anon

        +1 more. You’re angry right now (and you have a right to be), and Big Decisions should be made with a clearer head. Counseling for you, maybe for both of you, probably should at least be a box checked before you pitch the marriage.

        I’m not defending him, but I do have a counterpoint. I’ve encountered some family cultures where taking care of parents is an inviolable point of honor. He may be in that camp, and knows you wouldn’t understand it, but feels absolutely obligated to follow it. Again, you have the right to be angry, but with time you might start to have a little understanding, if not sympathy, for his actions. He was wrong, and the conversation about culture and values surrounding supporting parents should have happened out in the open BEFORE this, but he wouldn’t be the first person to fail to face up to a conflict.

    • Anon

      Oof, this is devastating and I’m so sorry. This would be pretty much an automatic dealbreaker for me, I think. I could handle a little financial irresponsibility, so long as it didn’t bankrupt us, but the lie and the subsequent steps he took to hide this (multiple payments, etc) is a huge betrayal. I don’t really have any advice on next steps other than consult a divorce attorney ASAP. But I’m so sorry you’re going through this, it’s a huge betrayal.

    • Anonymous

      It’s his 70 year old MOTHER. I suppose when you’re 70 and you need something, you’ll fully expect your child to tell you no because his wife said he wasn’t allowed? You’re acting like he’s been gambling money away or something. Separate your finances, each of you puts money into a pool to run the household/raise your kid, and the rest each of you can do with whatever you want.

      • Anonymous

        I think I agree. Get the finances in order (sorted and separated), examine what about the relationship makes him feel a need to hide things (did he feel like he was protecting his mom from judgments over her lack of self-sufficiency?), and have some compassion for the complexity of people’s relationships with their very imperfect parents (it sounds like he needs to work on some family-of-origin issues, but surely there’s nothing more “price of admission” than our in-laws).

      • lawsuited

        I’d expect him to at least tell OP that he planned to purchase a house despite her disagreeing with it so that she could separate her finances or put whatever other safeguards in place. OP’s husband is acting unilaterally and secretly with shared money, and that’s not okay.

      • Senior Attorney

        Yes, I don’t think I’d end an otherwise good marriage over this. I feel like 40 years from now if you look back and this is the worst thing he ever did, you’ll count yourself very lucky indeed. (Assuming, again, that this is an otherwise good marriage and the loss of the money isn’t harming the family.)

        • Never too many shoes...

          I have to say I am little surprised, SA.

          Going behind your spouse’s back to buy a house and hide the evidence of it is a pretty terrible betrayal, whether or not the loss of the money harms the family. It is half the OP’s money so it certainly is harming her. More than that, the lying harms the family.

          If he could lie about this and engage in such deliberate deception about it, who knows what else he might lie about?

          • Anon

            Also super surprised. SA, you’ve recommended divorce in situations I consider way less egregious. I love my husband deeply and have been married almost 20 years. I don’t believe divorce should be undertaken lightly, especially with kids involved. I’d want to go to counseling and try to work through many issues, including reckless spending, some kinds of s3xual infidelity, and him not pulling his weight around the house or with the kids.
            I absolutely could not get past this, and would be calling divorce attys the day I found out. At the end of the day, he’s chosen to put his mother ahead of his wife. That’s unacceptable for a married man.

          • Eh

            People are different. You would go to counseling over infidelity– which is absolutely your choice. I would divorce immediately over infidelity. Full stop, no questions asked. That’s my choice. Both are fair choices. It’s ok that this is not a deal breaker for SA even if it is for you.

        • OP

          OP here just for a little more context.

          I think it would have been one thing if, at the time of the decision, there was a conversation where it was clear we disagreed and he was open about the fact that he felt he had to do this. It’s the deliberately going behind my back to do something he knew I was uncomfortable with and pretending it wasn’t happening. He lied to my face saying that his brother was buying the house. And he lied at the time of the decision and every moment forward where he made a fraction of a monthly payment to avoid me finding out – that is what I am hurt the most by. If he’s willing to lie to me to avoid a difficult conversation here, what else would he be ok lying to me about?

          While we have stable finances, it’s tight. We made a few long term decisions, like buying a forever house once rather than doing something smaller and relocating later. He had a business venture that he wanted to try, and it didn’t go well. We’re young and I felt like we had a lot on our plate and I was uncomfortable with adding the responsibility of another person’s wellbeing at a time where they could have been self sufficient. MIL sold her house for $500k cash. She could have easily rented an affordable place, or purchased a nice small house in her new area. But she wanted a 3 bedroom house near the beach, and I didn’t think it was financially responsible at this stage of our lives to be behind that. Instead of engaging in a conversation, he just lied to me.

          SA, this is hard because I value your opinion on these things usually, but this broke my heart

          • Senior Attorney

            Okay with the new facts I’m way more leaning towards the DTMFA side of things. Again, I’m so sorry this is happening. Definitely get yourself to a therapist of your own ASAP so you can have some support as you work through this and decide what to do.

          • Never too many shoes...

            Oh, OP, that is even worse.
            Again, I am so sorry this is happening to you.

      • Never too many shoes...

        I strongly disagree, 12:13 pm.
        First off, his wife (the OP) never got the chance to weigh in on this particular issue because her husband not only did not tell her while co-buying a house, but deliberately broke up the payments to deceive her to avoid the discussion. That is not okay.
        Also, as her the initial post, this is not a situation where the evil daughter in law wants to keep the poor aged mother in rags. The OP says the mother has half a million dollars. She could clearly be self-sufficient for now.

        • Anonymous

          But it sounds like there was a discussion, and OP weighed in that her MIL should be self-sufficient. That probably felt pretty unilateral too. It sounds like you agree with OP, but bringing in “shoulds” makes things personal. How do you argue back without throwing your mom under the bus at that point? “No, you see, my mom is irresponsible/helpless/less cognitively together than she looks…” It’s also possible he was telling the truth about the plan as it stood at the time, and then it played out differently. No question he handled this badly, was dishonest, and there’s a lot to work through here. But I don’t envy the position he’s been in either.

          • Never too many shoes...

            If you read the OP’s further comments above, it is clear that while the mother admitted she had funds for a modest home she wanted three bedrooms near the beach. The OP was right to not want to fund such reckless self-indulgence when she has a young family to raise and pay for.

            But I really do not have any sympathy for the position the husband is in, which is that he has been effectively stealing money from his wife, intentionally covering it up and lying about it.

      • Anonymous

        I’m on the fence about this one. Yes it’s his mother, but he lied to her about something incredibly important to avoid the discussion. He just didn’t want to deal with her feelings and opinion. He knew that she would have a problem with it, didn’t anyway, took steps to conceal his actions, and shows no remorse. IMO, that’s a betrayal. I’d be tempted to end things

      • Anon

        I think I feel the opposite, actually. I’d be less upset to find that my husband was secretly gambling than to find out he was giving the same amount of money to his mother against my expression wishes. Wives come before mommies when you’re a married man. Husband and wife made a decision, you don’t go behind your wife’s back about something like this. If he feels that his mom can’t support herself, that merits a discussion, not a unilateral decision that he knows his wife is not on board with.

      • Anonymous

        The MIL didn’t ‘need something’, she wanted a 3 bedroom beach house. She had 500K. and even if she didn’t OP’s DH was lying to her. The issue isn’t that he spent money she disagreed with. The issue is the lying and no apology for lying.

      • Anon

        I think it’s up to OP whether she divorces over this or not, but I absolutely see where husband was coming from and I’d probably do the same thing.

        • Anonymous

          You’d lie to your husband’s face and hide money by splitting transactions so your mom could have a slightly nicer house? Wow.

    • Anon

      It’s not about what you should do, it’s about what he should do.

      If he wants to stay in the marriage, he needs to attend counseling, alone and with you, and enthusiastically.

      I think it’s important to have good relationships with family members, but a marriage does not work when the marital relationship is made secondary to any other relationship – even to his mother. He also needs to hand over control of the family finances to you.

      • Anon

        But she hasn’t decided if SHE wants to stay in the marriage and she should take steps to protect herself if she doesn’t.

      • anon

        I agree with this entirely. The money isn’t the only issue, although it’s a big one. It’s also the fact that your marriage doesn’t come first. He actively hid things from you because he “had” to do something for his mother. What he “had” to do was have a difficult conversation (probably several, possibly with a marriage counselor) about your financial goals and your nuclear family’s obligations toward extended family. It’s legitimate to have competing values about those things, but not to ignore the conflict and go behind your spouse.

        I think you should insist on individual and couple’s therapy, and that you have control of the finances for a while. You may decide not to divorce him, but I would speak with a divorce lawyer.

    • Anon

      Echoing everything above, along with who in the world does he think he is?! Sorry, but this puts a really bad momma’s boy taste in my mouth. I’m sorry, OP.

    • Anonymous

      Counselling so that he gets this is about the lying and breaking of trust.

      If you decide to continue the marriage, try completely separating your finances for awhile/forever. Work with a marriage counsellor or financial planner to do this. Costs of supporting his mother come out of his ‘fun money’ budget not joint finances.

    • lawsuited

      Wow, I’m sorry this is happening to you. You must be in shock right now. Although I’m not usually in the DTMFAMO camp, I sort of agree that you may have to end the marriage. Largely because he unapologetically insists that he acted correctly in secretly using your shared funds to purchase a house and going to great lengths to hide that fact from you. Aside from being hugely insulting to you, it’s scary that he is making unilateral decisions with your shared funds without you knowing. I think using this as a catalyst to separate your finances before mentioning divorce is a great idea.

    • Anon

      Whatever you do, separate your money ASAP. Get some assets declared your sole and separate property if possible, if he will sign off now in order to keep you happy. Try to separate your retirement accounts from his.

    • anon a mouse

      How did you find out? If he came clean because he felt guilty about it, then I think that matters. And if you found out on your own (like doing your taxes), then that matters too.

      At a minimum, you need to separate your finances and go to solo therapy. Hopefully solo therapy will help you figure out what you want. I think you would be perfectly justified to stay or leave the marriage — no one else here knows how strong or weak it was before this.

      But the betrayal and secrecy is huge. And you say the financial piece isn’t that big (and maybe it isn’t, relatively), but it is depriving your family of that money in the interim. Is that coming out of his retirement savings? College fund? Other family priorities?

      Of course he should want to help his mom out. But he decided to do that unilaterally and that’s just not okay.

    • The original Scarlett

      Hmmm, I think the bigger issue is that you two are not on the same page about family support. I’m not a fan of his deception at all, but I can see feeling obligated to family in a way that others may not. It’s hard to make a marriage work where you don’t agree on the fundamentals of things. It also sounds like you don’t compromise with each other – did you explore a mid-point like some level of support but maybe not as much as he’d have like and more than you wanted to contribute?

      • OP

        My position was that I was ok contributing one off things as our finances allowed, but I didn’t want assistance from us to be a given because I wanted her situation to be sustainable in the event that we couldn’t afford to give anything. We’re so young and I felt like life could throw us a lot of curveballs- I know a lot of people who had special needs kids, had job loss, or had significant unexpected (but somewhat optional) medical bills for things like IVF. I wanted our support to be things like your dishwasher gave out, here’s a new one! Not paying for basic necessities. Even if the dollar amount was the same, it felt very different to me.

        • Anon

          I’m totally with you, OP. I think compromise in this situation means making sure his mom isn’t homeless and has her basic needs met. It doesn’t mean buying her a nice beachfront house, when your own young family still has a lot of debt.

        • Sv

          I’m glad you aren’t my DIL.
          I hope for your husband’s sake–and his family–he gets a divorce.

  15. Anonymous

    Just applied for my dream job at a company where I didn’t seem to have any connections. I looked at their linkedin page though to see a former coworker is there. I connected with her on linkedin then but haven’t reached out.

    She and I were water cooler friends/acquaintances, but never real life friends and have not kept in touch since she left 2 years ago. The job I’m applying for is, I’m guessing, 2 levels up from her job at this new company and in a different but related field, and I’d likely collaborate a fair amount with her boss. Would it be really tacky for me to message her and say essentially “applied for a job at Awesome Co and saw on their page you work there. I was surprised we weren’t already linkedin friends so wanted to change that”?
    of course I not so secretly would love any connection to the job/company…but I think that’s too much to say directly. but is even this subtler version too much? could I ask what she knows about the job without seeming like an opportunistic jerk?

    • Anon

      I think you would come off as an opportunistic jerk if you ask her about the job, and she frankly probably doesn’t know much because it is above her pay grade and in a different field. However, I do think you can reach out to her and say “applied for a job at Awesome Co and saw on their page you work there. I was surprised we weren’t already linkedin friends so wanted to change that. Any chance you would have a few minute to catch up and talk about how it is working for Awesome Co?” And then spending the call actually asking about what it is like working there, not trying to get her to recommend you.

      • Anon

        Wait what?! That’s not … good advice. People reach out to me all the time who I know pretty tangentially. Barring a terrible experience, I try to help them out – usually in the form of passing along their resume to my HR contact.

        • Anon

          But she isn’t suggesting that the OP not reach out. She is suggested that she doesn’t do it just to ask that her resume be passed on – basically treat the person is a human being and not to just use her. Most likely the contact will offer to pass along her resume. How is that bad advice?

    • Anon

      A man would ask about the job. Don’t hold yourself back and miss an opportunity because you’re afraid to advocate for yourself.

    • The original Scarlett

      I would 100% reach out, connect, and be transparent about asking for help.

  16. Anonymous

    I have just been offered a job in consulting (doing more or less what I do now internally at my company). I’m really naive about consulting and I would’ve said it didn’t appeal to me (too corporate seeming, less ability to choose your own projects, too much travel), but they would pay me almost 50% more than what I make now, which has made me reconsider. Anyone who’s worked in this field have any advice? It’s not one of the big 4, more of a growing specialty firm in the area I work in (1000 staff).

    • Houda

      I assume they told you the positives and you are asking about the downside.
      I have experience moving from industry into MBB then a large boutique: the working hours are beyond what you can imagine. This is something that I don’t think comes across in the interview and offer stage enough. Unless there isn’t much work to do or you are staffed in a lifestyle office e.g. Amsterdam, you will be working or thinking about work all the time. Some companies and offices have a big face time requirement even when you don’t have a lot of work. Some teams can be toxic and with long hours it is unbearable.
      Then you’d have to ask yourself whether the increase in salary is worth losing your social life, friendships, and potentially health. I have emerged after 3 years of consulting with a formula that works for me. I’m happy with the pay, will work long hours, but the moment there is some downtime there is no way I’d be working e.g. on planes, between projects etc. It works for me because my firm realised I am very efficient, so even if they see me sipping tea alone, they don’t comment.

    • Anonymous

      A few thoughts below…

      One of the reasons consulting pays so much higher is that they are paying for your availability. It’s not that that hours are always long, but you never know when the long hours will hit and what you will have to give up to get it done.

      Depending on the firm, it can be much less corporate than you might think; certainly the culture at some firms is very button-downed and extremely dry.

      As you progress in a firm and build your network, you will generally have much more ability to choose your projects, or at least influence the projects you work on.

      Be prepared to get beat up for the first year. There is always a mindset shift going from industry to consulting, and it takes people a year to ‘get it’. During this time, people generally get strong feedback about needing to improve and being proactive. It will take some time and it is a steep curve, but you will get there.

    • Anon

      Go for it!! Try it for a year, if you don’t like, you can always go back to full time salaried employment. Always negotiate – find consultant rates for your role and ask for market rate if what they are offering you is lesser… Even if its on higher end, still negotiate for a bit more.

      The rate is high – to compensate for the risk – consultants can be let go anytime without severance pay. and you’ll have to bear the unemployment costs yourself… so don’t feel wowed by the high rate, it’s supposed to be high! Negotiate for more. At the worst, they’ll come back say this is what we can offer.

      Some consultants also get a couple of work from home days etc.. check if they offer that. You can ask approx. number of hours needed. Not every corporate requires consultant to overwork…. Mine doesnt.

    • Anonymous

      Thank you, both responses are so helpful. Any specific questions you would recommend asking before accepting that I might not have thought to ask in previous interview? I’m embarrassed to say I didn’t even ask about what kind of hours people typically work (though maybe they wouldn’t have been honest anyway).

    • AnonZ

      I agree with some of the above posters that you shouldn’t necessarily assume that crazy hours are required, though that’s the case at some places. For other firms/industries, the consulting pay bump is really just because you’ll be on the road a lot and you’ll be changing engagements a lot so it requires a lot more flexibility.

      Something you should consider about yourself and ask about depending on the answer: during my consulting time, something I had to adjust to was having more “outsider” status than I was used to. I would typically spend 4-6 months working very closely with a client – on-site every week – and while typically people were friendly or at least polite, I wasn’t part of the office camaraderie. Sometimes I had “work friends” if I had friends from my firm staffed with me, but sometimes it felt isolating to always be the outsider. So, the question you could ask would be about company culture – how do they build culture if people aren’t always working in the same office and things are pretty distributed.

      The other area you may have to be flexible is around reporting relationships. When I was consulting, I had a director who was above me on the org chart but who didn’t really manage my day-to-day – that was directed by whoever was leading the client project I was on. And that would typically switch every project, so it required some adaptation to essentially have a new boss every 6 months. So I’d ask about how that works and think about how you’d feel about that.

      I loved consulting – it was perfect for me when I was more able to be on the road all the time – so neither of those things were dealbreakers for me but definitely can be an adjustment.

    • Former Big4 Consultant

      I agree that at least part of what they are paying for is your availability anytime, anywhere. I just moved into a corporate role after over 7 years in Consulting and I am just now realizing how much I was used to having work on my mind all day and all the time. You never know when new work will be coming in and the client always comes first, employees come second. You have to be willing to put your private live on a second priority to be successful. That was my experience at least and it got worse the higher up I got in the hierarchy, even though it seems to me it gets better on a director/partner level because you have more control over your schedule. I did not want to be a partner, I really enjoy the technical details of projects rather than building client relationships and focusing on sales, so I got out. In addition, it is really hard in my experience to go from corporate to consulting. The pace is very different, you need to be able to adjust more quickly and the relationship with clients can be difficult to handle if you are used to working with colleagues rather than client teams. I also found that people coming from very hierarchical organizations found the switch even more difficult because as a consultant you need to make decisions regarding your work quickly and all the time without senior approval. So, if you make the switch, be prepared for setbacks and a hard time adjusting at the beginning.
      Regarding workload, in addition to the issue of face time, which is prevalent in many consulting teams, please remember that you always have work on top of your functional project work e.g. project controlling and billing, risk mgmt processes, documentation and internal review and feedback loops as well as product development and sales topics which you are probably expected to handle on top of a full project schedule. This may be something you could ask about to understand what the expectation is, it is heavily dependent on the way your role is set up. This is actually one of the major points that I find has changed positively for me: In my corporate role, I feel like I can handle my projects and then wrap up and go home. In consulting, once I had project work done, it felt like I had a second job on top managing these topics.
      On the other hand, I gained so much from these seven years in terms of where I am professionally. I would not have the position I have now if I had spent those years in a corporate role and I have learned so much, but it comes at a price.

  17. LLB

    Talk to me about laser hair removal. Have you done it? Did it work? Did it hurt? How much did it cost? I’m considering it for my upper lip and underarms.

    • Never too many shoes...

      I have had pretty much my entire body lasered by now. It has worked well although I have had some fine regrowth over the course of many years but a couple of touch ups dealt easily with that. I have very dark hair and pale skin. For me, it definitely hurt (more in some places than others). Lip was one of the most painful spots but it is a small area so it is over quite quickly. Also, there is numbing cream which I was mostly too lazy to use (apart from for the Brazilian where it was definitely a requirement) so that could help you.

      The cost can vary quite a bit depending on your market so it is hard to say. The key is finding a place you trust so maybe post your location and see if anyone has specific places.

    • Panda Bear

      I’ve done my underarms and bikini line. So happy – it’s great to never think, wait, can I wear this sleeveless top today? And it’s especially wonderful to never deal with bikini line ingrowns again. For me, it hurt a little bit, but much more so in my bikini area than my underarms. I’d feel perhaps one or two painful zaps per session, but for the most part it was no problem. I’d estimate the whole process cost about $2,000, over the course of about 18 months. If I had done just underarms then I suppose it would have been about half that.

    • Anonymous

      Loooove it. Did underarms and lower legs a decade ago and never looked back. Shave underarms once every three months just for the few hairs that crop up, shave legs maybe once a year.

    • PolyD

      I got my lower legs done in…2007? I got a great deal because the economy was starting to fail. They were giving away laser packages.

      It worked very, very well for me. I have pale skin and dark leg hair, and always had basically a 5 o’clock shadow on my legs. I got a prescription for EMLA from my doctor and used that beforehand so it didn’t hurt.

      Best thing I ever did. Here we are 10+ years later and I just get the occasional stray hair on my lower legs. My biggest regret is that I didn’t do my thighs and bikini area (just the edges) back then.

    • Anon

      I did my legs for approx $400 (Groupon) at a medspa over the course of 2 years. I have dark hair and light-medium skin. It works, I haven’t shaved my legs in forever. It does hurt but not unbearably so. My legs were always red/bumpy afterwards for a few hours.

    • Anon

      I’m 39 and have a very hairy chin and neck. I have darker skin (Indian) and dark hair. The hair was tearing up my face, and I was getting hyper pigmentation. I read an interview with the makeup mogul Bobbie Brown and she said that her best beauty decision was getting laser hair removal on her chin before she went gray. The fact that she said that in an article was so honest and I’m thankful for her putting that out there. I’ve had a couple sessions and it has been wonderful. I can’t believe how much energy I put into this, and I’m kicking myself for not doing it earlier. My skin is clearing up and I’m not constantly applying concealer.

  19. Just need to vent...

    To the desk drummer down the hallway: you are not Phil Collins!! STFU!!!

  20. Anonymous

    Question for ladies under 30 (ish), would you date (with an eye towards LTR) a man in his mid forties? I have a friend who is pretty insistent on dating younger, conventionally attractive women. To be fair, in a lot of ways he is a catch. He has a great job, he is a great dad, he is a lovely person, smart, adventurous, etc. But he is twice divorced and has a history with “bird with a broken wing” types. He wants to break that pattern but still date women in their 20s and early thirties. I say that hot, emotionally secure, young women don’t want to seriously date a 44 year old. (in general of course, of course there are always exceptions). When I was 25, I thought older men who hit on me were basically delusional. Am I being way harsh Tai? Or does my friend need a reality check?

    FWIW, I thought this might be an interesting convo for Friday. Please don’t tell my to MYOB, I know I should really butt out.

    • Never too many shoes...

      For me, if I were still 30-ish, two divorces and kids would have been far more of an issue for me than the age gap.

      • Anon

        Agreed that two divorces and kids would have been a bigger issue for me at that age. I don’t think the age gap would bother me in and of itself, if I happened to meet a wonderful guy who was 15 years older, but the pattern of pursuing younger women is definitely a little gross. I don’t want to be anyone’s “arm candy.”

        • BabyAssociate

          +1 to all of this. The age itself is not concerning, but I’d never date anyone with kids and the pattern of dating only 15 years younger women is a major red flag

        • nona

          +1 – it’s the pattern, not the age difference. Everyone he dates is going to age out of his preference and is therefore a relationship without staying power.

      • Anon

        This. I have friends that, when they were in their late 20s, dated and married guys in their late 30s. Of the three people in my friend group that did this– 2/3 guys had not been married before. One of the guys was divorced with no kids. They did not really see age as being an issue because they were in the same life place. I do think the two divorces before 40 and the kids would be a turn off though.

        • Anonymous

          This. Late 20s women with late 30s guys often works because guys are generally older when they are looking to settle down. But a 25 year old with a 44 year old? That age gap is twice as big.

    • Anon

      No, I would definitely not be interested. I don’t want to be someone’s rebound/midlife crisis/third marriage. Not interested in baggage.

    • Anon

      If he didn’t have the baggage of two divorces and kids and was otherwise a catch then I would be interested.

    • Anonymous

      I’m 28 and the kids and divorces would be an immediate dealbreaker for me. If it wasn’t for that, I’m not sure I’d be interested in someone that much older than me because I feel like there’s a world of men in their 30’s to date so why jump to the next age bracket when I’m still so young.

    • HSAL

      He doesn’t actually want to break that pattern. With two divorces, it sounds like he’s trading in to continue to date women in their late 20s and early 30s. And “getting older while they stay the same age” only works for Matthew McConaughey in Dazed and Confused.

      • Anon

        Or Leonardo Dicaprio.

        Echoing everyone else. It’s not the age, it’s the baggage. He could be wonderful and his kids could be wonderful, and maybe life takes that turn, but if I’m looking to be married I wouldn’t start out walking into stepmother zone. Some strong workings from above would need to push me that way.

        • Anon

          I love the graphic that shows Leo’s age going up linearly and the girlfriend’s ages go from, like, 20-25 and then back down to 20 again. What a tool.

          • Anonymous

            Lainey Gossip always has great commentary around this. Apparently he pretty much always sends them off just before or after their 25th birthday and then starts fresh with a 20/21 year old model.

          • Anon

            That’s what the graphic shows! He cycles through the exact same ages. It’s creeeepy!

    • Anon

      He seems delusional. Why does he need to exclude women his own age? Is he afraid of them, or trying to hide something that a younger generation may not pick up on? That said, I was kind of weirded out that her husband is 10-15 years older than her, but when I met him it turns out that he is the rare case where he’s smart, funny, rich, and looks like a movie star. So yeah that particular guy was a catch, but most older men are not working with the same assets.

    • Anonymous

      He’s pretty delusional. A middle aged, twice divorced dad is not exactly a catch. When he’s 55, they won’t even be 40 yet!

      DH is 42 and a few of the guys on his hockey team who chase younger women do so because no woman their own age has patience for their juvenile ways.

    • Anonymous

      I always had a rule about not dating a man who wouldn’t date a woman his own age. Happened to fall for a particular woman 15 years younger? Cool. Exclusively dates younger? Icky.

    • DCR

      Yeah, No. He is not going to find hot, emotionally secure, young women in their 20s or early 30s that want to date a 44 year old, especially one who is trice divorced and has kids. He would be 20 years old than a mid-20 year old. At that age, my reaction would be that he was old enough to be my dad. And frankly, as a early 30 year old, I still wouldn’t date him nor do I know any friends who would consider him.

      Given his refusal to date women his own age, it is very clear that he doesn’t actually want to break that pattern. Instead of trying to convince him to change, I would spend you time and effort considering why you want to be friends with this guy.

    • Is it Friday yet?

      I am mid-30s and what you are describing would be a hard no from me now, let alone when I was in my 20s. He sounds like a delusional mess.

    • Anonymous

      Lol of course not be honestly no point discussing this with him. Lots of Men like young hot women. Not your circus not your monkeys.

    • Anon

      As everyone else stated, absolutely not! Two divorces and kids, I’d be out of there. He seems to constantly want to trade in each woman for a younger model. I don’t care how nice someone seems. These are serious red flags. Plus, she could probably find someone else very easily.

      • Anonymous

        Unfortunately, both his ex-wives cheated on him. He has a bad pattern… and also bad luck.

        • Anonymous

          But the common factor there is him. Either the women he picks or how he treats them after they are married. He needs to work on one or both of those if he wants a third marriage to last.

    • anon

      I certainly would not, for a number of reasons: first, I want my partner to be relatively close to my age. When I’m 50, I don’t want him to be 65. When I’m 65 and starting to enjoy retirement, I don’t want him to be 80 and needing round the clock nursing care (obvi mileage may vary). I absolutely wouldn’t want to date someone who had kids– I don’t want any at all and have no interest in being a step mom or dealing with co-parenting stuff. If I did want kids, I would strongly prefer to have my own kids and have that experience with someone who was also having it for the first time with me. I would be very wary of someone who had been divorced several times. What baggage is there? What are the ex’s like? How has he processed his divorces? What has he learned? If we get married, I’ll be thrilled about entering this brand new stage in life. He’ll be on Round 3. Just not the same perspective. I want someone in the same stage of life as I am in. If I’m a hot, secure 28-32 year old, I have options– I don’t have to be a step mom or third wife. If I met someone and we organically formed an amazing connection but he was older, maybe I’d pursue it–maybe. I can’t 100% say I’d never date someone that much older. But if I was just dating and met this person? Then absolutely not. Why bother getting emotionally invested in someone with so many dealbreakers?

      But beyond that, and more importantly to me, I do not like the mindset that men who are in the upper 30s/40s and insist on dating “younger, conventionally attractive women” often have. It reeks of red pill/men’s rights/ MGTOW crap, which collectively festering grab bag of sexist ideologies that are repugnant to me. He probably thinks that his “market value” has improved so much because he’s older and has money/education/stability, and he probably strongly associates a woman’s “value” with her age. Seems like he wants a younger woman who doesn’t know better and will put up with his crap, or worse, doesn’t want someone with as much “baggage” as he has, like women his age might. No thank you. He’s delusional.

    • Anon

      When I was in my 20s, conventionally attractive, well-educated, etc., I got a lot of attention from men in their 40s. I turned most of them down, because I got this icky feeling that they wouldn’t have dated me if I had been their own age. (Basic theory: if you don’t like women who are in their 40s, why would I, as a future 40-something, want to waste my best years on you?)

      The only one I dated was never married, introduced to me by a mutual friend, and our first date lasted five hours (brunch and talking after brunch) because we got along so well. But twice divorced, in his 40s, seeking younger woman – oof, that sounds sketchy and gross.

      This friend of yours can *try* to date hot 20-somethings all he wants, but he’s going to find that fewer and fewer of them are willing to date him. He ought to explore why he isn’t attracted to women his own age.

      • Anon

        Yes, this. Putting his divorce issues aside, the “1/2 + 7 rule” for finding a minimum appropriately aged partner is probably very outdated but I find it always seems to get you in the right ballpark. He very unlikely to find a long-term partner dating women under 29/30. I’ve dated divorced guys before, what I looked for as the relationship progressed was that he came out of it having learned some lessons, knew himself better, didn’t bash his ex even if it was a tough divorce, could call out places he could have done things differently. Because even if he was cheated on like you mentioned above, he’s 50% of that equation.

        • Anon

          I’ve never heard of the 1/2 + 7 rule, but that just seems wrong. So, a 60 year old could date a 37 year old, and it wouldn’t be weird? Or a 80 year old and a 47 year old?

      • Anonymous

        Nope！I am happily married. We just have a lot of very frank conversations about dating and I want to know if I am being too hard on him when I say that his future girlfriends need to remember the original 90210 and not the remake :)

    • Anon

      I agree with everyone else that the divorces and pattern of trading in women for younger models is the biggest red flag. That said, I’d be hesitant to date someone 15 years older anyway. There are exceptions, but generally people are active and in good health in their 50s and 60s and are slowing down but still mentally fit in their 70s. Late 70s/early 80s is when serious cognitive decline is common and many people have physical limitations as well. But when he hits 80, I’d be 65, which is retirement age in the US. If he was really wealthy and I could retire at 50 and enjoy a couple decades of travel with him, I’d be more up for it. But I don’t want to have to work until 65, just to retire and care for an 80 year old. Sorry not sorry.

      • Anonymous

        This. There are exceptions – DH’s boss just retired early because she wants to travel with her second husband. He’s 15 years old than her but he is very physically fit and wealthy enough that she could retire early. They planned her early retirement with the knowledge that he likely only has 10, maybe 15 years before he starts to see significant phyical decline. We’re super happy for her as her first husband was an awful jerk. But hubby #2 is a rare older guy catch. And even he has no divorces, he was widowed.

    • anon

      I know a man in his mid-40s who is twice divorced, has three kids, and is now married to a hot woman who was in her 20s when they met. The man is super rich and very successful. He’s also the most charismatic person I’ve ever met and is relatively attractive (but not super hot). I’m in no way surprised that he was able to find a third hot, young wife. I also won’t be surprised if he one day has a fourth hot, young wife. For me, the pattern of only dating young women and divorcing two women would be a huge red flag.

    • lawsuited

      Probably not. I have my own house and my own money, which I assume is the reason that women date much older men. I’d rather not take on the baggage of 2 divorces, generational differences, and caring for an aging spouse earlier than my peers.

    • Anonymous

      This reminds me of the scene on Friends where they invite random women in the coffee shop to comment on Ross’s history and the red flags associated with it. lol

    • Anon

      Hell no, not even if he has not been divorced. I think a lot of older men watch Hollywood movies and news stories of rich old men marrying young women. But they don’t realize that those older men are much more successful in other ways. Your friend needs to look at himself in the mirror: is he George Clooney? No. Is he Brad Pitt? No. Although to be frank, I don’t even find GC or BP that attractive anymore, I also did not agree with mainstream media GC was a catch for Amal. She was a catch for him. I find any guy more than twelve years older than me who wants to date me pretty gross and disgusting. The fact that they were interested in someone young enough to be their daughter alone is enough to turn me off. He might have better luck with young women from developing countries or need a sugar daddy though.

      • Anon

        I think George Clooney is a dreamboat but I totally agree that Amal was a catch for him. She’s equally gorgeous and successful, but younger and presumably way smarter.

        • Anonymous

          He knows that she was a catch. That’s why he married her and had kids after years of saying he would do neither.

      • Ellen

        I am not a fan of George Clooney or Amal, and do not think anyone got anything special. She has a long face and he is already on the older side, kind of like Shawn Connery now. I also do not think her being a lawyer makes her any more desirable, tho for a lawyer, she is more attractive then alot of other women lawyers. But that is not saying that much.

    • Anonymous

      Age gap no prob. Multiple divorces gives pause. Yes, I loved older (10+) men when I was in my 20, more interesting conversations interests, manly.

    • Anon

      OH MAN, I dated this guy! He was late 40s, I was 32. He was divorced twice, one kid. He liked me ok but really wanted to be with someone in her late 20s in order to start over with babies etc, and he felt I was a bit long in the tooth for that. I am not making this up. As awful as he sounds as a boyfriend, my heart was not broken, and I kept in touch with him for a long time, which is how I know what happened to him next –

      He finally found what he wanted on a “singles” cruise to Russia – basically introducing horny American guys to mail order brides. He married her, she got her papers to stay here (citizenship? Green card? I don’t know) and divorced him immediately, taking a fair amount of his wealth with her, both in terms of a legal settlement and also the amounts that she outright stole.

      Me? I married the next guy I dated and we have teenagers now. He’s 9 years older, and contrary to what people say about age differences lessening over time, that difference is magnified when you’re talking about one partner retiring and the other continuing to work for another 9 years. It is really, really something to think about seriously.

      Your friend sounds like a real prize. I wish him the kind of luck my ex bf experienced.

      • Senior Attorney

        I dated that guy, too! I was 22,he was (yikes!) 48. Divorced twice with two kids. And damned if he didn’t end up with a Chinese mail order bride! LOL

        I think the age differences matter the most when you’re young and when you’re old. A 20 year old with a 30 year old is going to raise a lot of eyebrows. In the middle (a 30 year old with a 40 year old, or a 40 year old with a 50 year old, or a 50 year old with a 60 year old), notsomuch. A 60 year old with a 70 year old (that’s me now) starts to get a little awkward because what if he wants to retire? And when he’s 80 and I’m 70, I can only hope that we’ll both still be as healthy and vigorous as we are now. Ditto 80 and 90.

    • Eertmeert

      Met my husband when i was 26 and he was 40. Still together and a great partnership 12 years later (anniversary in june). But – i was mature for my age, he was a little immature for his (just emotionally not quite grounded, due to lack of confidence and he has since caught up to his age), he had never been married and had no kids. It’s been a wonderful relationship in that we grew together and been through major challenges.

      Now, key here is no kids/not divorced once much less twice/ he is dedicated to personal growth.

      So, my answer is yes, but in your friend’s situation Hard No.

    • Anon

      I am going to be an outlier here. When I was in my 20s I dated two different men 10-15 years older than I was. Both relationships lasted 1+ years and they were great guys (both divorced; one with children). I was not at a life stage where I was looking for a husband, or even someone to live with. We had a lot of fun, common interests, and I did not have to deal with a dude-bro who wanted to spend his weekends getting drunk with his former frat-buddies or heading to Vegas (which seemed to be about 75% of the single men I met as a lawyer in LA). Both relationships ran their course and ended with no hard feelings on either side (I am Facebook friends with one of them.) I had by then reached a point where I wanted to think about settling down and finding a husband and neither of them were candidates (they did not want kids and I did.)

      And I currently live in a HCOL suburb surrounded by men married to their (much younger) second or third wives. And contrary to popular perception, their wives are lovely women with college degrees who appear to be well adjusted and reasonably normal.

      As long as everyone is being honest about what they want, I do not see anything more inherently creepy about older men dating younger women than there is about younger women routine dating more mature and more financially secure men. If some 21-year old model wants to date an older celebrity for the exposure/ experiences/fun, then let her. They are using each other and both sides are apparently getting what they want out of the relationship.

  21. Pangea

    Does anyone want to help me find a bedspread/quilt?

    I bought a rug similar to this for under the bed (https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/30334035/). For some reason the exact rug is no longer online, but the one I have has equal amounts of greyish-blue and red. The current summer quilt is bright and colorful and 100% does not go with the rug (pinks and greens and teals). The bedroom furniture is walnut with a mix of white and black accents, and the walls are grey.

    The obvious answer to me seems to be grey, but with grey walls, I just can’t make it so dreary. Unfortunately re-painting is not an option at this time. I’ve also considered white, but afraid that will be too much of a contrast (although feel free to talk me into it), since there’s no white in the rug.

    Any ideas? Or do I re-assign the rug to another room and start over?

  22. still looking for help, 6 weeks later

    On February 21 I wrote looking for help from the hive and thought I’d give an update and see if there’s any more critical mass toward advice. A year ago, my grandmother, who was like two parents in one for me and my best friend, passed away. In June we started the process of trying to get her co-op transferred to me (I could write you all a book about what the emotional resonance of that is, given that this is my last link to her and also what has always felt like home to me.)
    We’ve been jerked around, ignored, or given bad information at every stage of the process. It took 2-3 months for the board to make it plain to us that they didn’t want to hear from us (which I don’t understand), to connect us to the management company for the building, and for them to string us along untli we finally got access to the online purchase application. That was submitted in mid-October, and it was two mmore months until we found out I was approved. Then it was three weeks of the management company telling me I had to submit an application, which was just wrong, and then two months of silence. When I reached out here the last time, we were in the silence phase. My mother emailed the board in early March, to say what now, and they professed to being shocked that nothing had been done. “I thought this was handled in January,” etc.
    And that’s where it ended. Someone from “the closings department” is now in charge and he’s doing the usual ignoring emails,claiming they’ve gone into spam, etc. etc. We thought we were finally there after having two documents signed, notarized, FedExed to him, and even (!) acknowledged by him. One was an affidavit saying no real estate tax is due. Now he is saying he needs a letter from the IRS (the letter that the affidavit would stand in for.) No IRS return has been filed.
    Through this all, I’ve repeatedly asked the estate attorney to take a stronger stand, to say we have submitted all documentation that is required and now have the expectation of finalizing this transaction. He won’t and my mother, who’s the executor, won’t force it. As I said, “We have become people who send complaining emails while letting other people drive the process.”
    Based on some feedback from the last time I posted here, I have also repeatedly urged that we get a real estate lawyer (the estate lawyer may not be right, in this case) to look over whatever paperwork this incompetent management company brings to the table.) That has also been ignored but I can handle the $1500 or so to do that on my own.
    I can’t believe I’m typing this so coherently (if indeed anyone is still bearing with me) because I’m honestly ready to just go up to the 26th floor of this building and jump off. This process has been soul-crushing. The last time I wrote there were some gentle suggestions that I should remember that not everyone shares my sense of emotional urgency about that. But surely there must be some legal recourse for a company that says, in writing, we can accept an affidavit from you, and then turns around and demands the nonexistent thing that the affidavit stands for – and keeps that kind of behavior going for six months? I can’t keep taking an hour out of my day several days a week for this.
    Hive, what do I do?
    I

    • Anonymous

      Why not hire a NYC real estate attorney for a consultation?

      Alternately, you can accept that this is going to take a lot longer than it needs to and just carry on with your life. Don’t plan around an end date. That is a valid decision. This is not going to go well no matter what you do. It is going to cost more and take more time than it needs to no matter what. You are not going to be able to control the process. But at some point it will end.

    • Anonymous

      Just hire a real estate lawyer for a second or third opinion. It’s such a specific situation that you aren’t going to get sufficient response from an internet board.

      • new job who dis

        Yes definitely get an aggressive RE lawyer. now.
        You’re very emotional about this condo and the process of getting into it. (and that’s okay!) but the more you wrap yourself up emotionally in this process, the more it’s going to break you. Spend the money, don’t trust the estate lawyer or your mother or the co-op board to get it done, and hire someone who will end this without your emotions/time/efforts getting sucked away.

        harsh honesty – you sound like a typical pro se plaintiff. which is totally fine! this condo is like a family member to you and you want to finish the process desperately. but no one else cares about you, your time, the condo, and/or probably the passing of your grandmother. You hire attorneys to take care of this stuff for you and the money sink is tough, but it will save you even more heartache than you’ve already clearly gone through.

    • Sanni

      I have absolutely zero advice on your situation with the co-op, but if you are serious about feeling like you want to hurt yourself, please seek urgent help. I’m not in the US but looks like National Suicide Prevention Hotline are at 1-800-273-8255. This is not worth hurting yourself over – please talk to someone x

    • anon a mouse

      Look, you need a bulldog attorney who will advocate for you. The situation sounds insane – no wonder you are going crazy! It probably will cost you, but given the aggravation you’ve had here, it will be worth it.

      Ask friends or local realtors to recommend a strong real estate attorney, ideally one who either does estate work or is part of a firm that does estate work too. Then fire your existing estate attorney because he’s not doing what you need him to do, and get the files transferred.

      (Don’t jump!)

    • Anonymous

      You hire a real estate lawyer yourself and tell your mom that you’re doing it because this is your asset. None of us can help.

    • Skipper

      This is your home and your link to your family, and I recognize why this all feels like so very much. My best, kindest advice is to get to a trained mental health professional asap. Make an appointment today, if you can. Talk to your PCP if you have trouble finding someone. But you need help with this because this is hard! When you finally move in, you’ll need help to move your couch, right? Because it’s big and heavy and too much to carry on your own. This situation is a couch of the heart. Find someone to help you lift as soon as you can. Don’t be afraid to call the suicide prevention hotline mentioned above. There’s no threshold for how suicidal you have to feel to talk to those kind and gentle people. You need and deserve a hand in this hard time.

      A little less urgently, I suggest remembering that you–and not the apartment–are the legacy and the link to your beloved grandparent. Several years ago I lost every single thing in a house fire. I was heartbroken to lose the connections and memories I thought were tied up in my stuff. But I realized I’m the link. My stuff isn’t my link. My dad lives in the way I laugh, in the dimple in my cheek, and the kindness I show to people, not in the middle school science project he helped me with. I carry him every single place I go.

      Your beloved, beloved grandparent is no different. You carry her with you and in you, in places no attorney or moth or flame can reach. It might help a little to identify the way that works for you and build a little cue for yourself. If you have your grandmother’s hair, try wrapping a strand around your finger and remembering her when you feel overwhelmed by this mess. If you laugh just like her, maybe write the word laugh on a post it and keep it on your monitor to help you remember. Do something that’s going to help you remember that she’s still so much a part of you.

      • Calico

        “I was heartbroken to lose the connections and memories I thought were tied up in my stuff. But I realized I’m the link. My stuff isn’t my link. My dad lives in the way I laugh, in the dimple in my cheek, and the kindness I show to people”

        This is so beautiful, I can’t tell you how much it helped me. I’m still struggling with the guilt of losing so many things that belonged to my mother. The biggest is her signet ring which was stolen off her finger in her assisted living. (Her arthritis prevented her from taking it off herself.) I blame myself for not removing it myself and keeping it safe, but she had already been stripped away of so much, I didn’t want to take away the ring she wore every day of her life. Your words really helped me reframe the loss. I will carry her with me wherever I go. Thank you.

      • still looking for help, 6 weeks later

        Thank you all. You’re all right about everything, except the person that said you’re never going to get good advice from an internet board. It’s very helpful to hear that this is something that should, at this point, be escalated to someone else who’s not emotional – and that my emotions are valid. Thank you all for chiming in and for understanding. It helps, actually.

        • Anon

          Yep, you are valid in seeking further legal counsel! I am an estate planning and probate attorney (not in NY). Most of us are non-confrontational by nature and that is probably where some of the foot dragging is coming from on his end. Doesn’t make it acceptable but, by way of explanation, it’s not unheard of to have estate issues linger for years. I would look for a strong-willed real estate/real property attorney, perhaps one affiliated with an estate planning or probate firm–they usually have more experience dealing with the transfer of property incident to a death. That said, don’t rule out recommendations from good sources if they don’t have that connection.

        • Anonymous

          The posts saying that you can’t get advice here were about legal advice.

      • Not that Anne, the other Anne

        This is beautiful. Thank you for writing it and sharing it.

  23. Anonymous

    What are the best slip-on sneakers for spring/summer? Realizing my Chucks are too much work for me.

  24. Dress for Success

    Does anyone know if Dress for Success charges women for the clothing? I’m considering donating and volunteering but I can’t figure out how their charity actually works once they get the donations. I don’t want to donate if they charge. (Also, has anyone volunteered with them?)

    • Anon

      They do not. I haven’t volunteered with mine but have donated clothes several times, and talked with the gals in their branch near me. They’re passionate and providing a good service. Don’t suffer from analysis paralysis – call them, ask them the questions you have, and what volunteer opportunities they have. If you don’t love the volunteering, you don’t have to go back.

    • Pompom

      They do not charge, no. Interview clothing and at least a week’s worth of clothing appropriate for the new role (once secured) are totally free to the woman in need.

      Went through the volunteer training with every intention of volunteering, but a role change in my professional life made me delay that a bit.

  25. Anon

    Is it an interview with a company where they have a business casual dress code, or did they specifically ask you to wear business casual attire to the interview?

  26. Anon

    I wrote a longer post that’s trapped in moderation. Any advice for separating finances from a spouse who has been financially deceptive with joint assets? I’d be willing to try counseling etc to deal with issue and continue in marriage, but if he isn’t open to it, I’m likely going to be ending the relationship. Do I speak to a divorce attorney at this stage?

    • Anon

      I would talk to a divorce attorney. Before separating finances, you need to know what you are entitled to and how the court would view various actions by you

      • LawyrChk

        +1 on meeting with a divorce attorney first. Even if you try to separate now, it’s possible that all assets from the marriage are going to be considered in the settlement (even if you move a portion into a bank account in your name only).

        There are lots of reasons you might want to do this to protect yourself if you’re worried money will go missing or you want to manage your own funds, but it may not have an impact if you divorce.

  27. Carrots

    Hive, looking for a place for a week day lunch for a group of 18 in the Alexandria or Arlington area. I’ve been tasked with looking at places to host the team lunch for a work celebration. We do have some vegetarians in the group, so would need options that way but other than that, not many other restrictions. But size is an issue, so a place that takes reservations would be nice. TIA

    • anon a mouse

      Tupelo Honey in Arlington.
      Hen Quarter or Vermillion in Old Town.
      Rustico in Arlington could work too, though sometimes it can get loud.
      Lebanese Taverna in Pentagon City would have a really nice assortment for vegetarians.

    • Anonymous

      Joe Theisman’s? It looks like it would be a grim sports bar, but the food is good and they take large parties. I use it for team celebrations.

    • Arlington

      You could try the original Lebanese Taverna in Westover, in Arlington. There’s very little parking so you’ll need to park in the lot behind the strip of shops across Wash. Blvd.

      Maybe also Me Jana (Lebanese) in Arlington, near Courthouse.

    • Another idea

      Bamian is an Afghan place in Falls Church. It’s in a vile area in 7 Corners, backing up to a shuttered Babies R Us, but the vegetarian items (spinach, pumpkin) are yummy, and they can definitely accommodate a large group. Good luck!

  28. Anon

    I dig it. You can always take off the jacket if it’s too formal, and then you’re in exact business casual.

  29. Anon

    Seeking advice: I’ve been in a year-long relationship with a generally great guy (I’ll call him G) but I’m on the fence about where it is all going. We will be separated by distance for the next 2 years at least due to my grad school, and G is not able to move from his very new job in Hong Kong for awhile. Job opportunities for me exist but aren’t necessarily amazing in Hong Kong, and we likely can’t work in the US on a permanent basis after my grad school due to visa issues even if we were to get married (both foreigners). Neither of our home countries have much in the way of long-term career opportunities for the other person.

    I really like G, and while I’m not F*ck Yes!(to quote Mark Manson) about marriage at this point, I’m definitely F*ck Yes! about spending more time getting to know this person with the view of potentially getting married. To the point that I’m willing to relocate to Hong Kong after school in 2 years to be with him (although will likely take a pay cut from current career, which I’m not particularly attached to in itself — long long hours with limited upward mobility — but I like the pay for now and have managed to build up $0.7M in net worth, which would theoretically allow me to attain lean-FIRE at a very single very frugal lifestyle in my home country), but only if we have already decided to build a future together AND gotten married to provide the legal framework to enable that move (again, visa issues).

    He says he’s worried that I would regret building a life around the relationship — away from my friends and family and removed from my original career –,and that I wouldn’t be able to have as high powered a career as I could have had at home (though of course this is not a given; it’s more along the lines of “having gone to a high profile Grande Ecole in France that basically enables me to get reasonably high paying jobs in the sector when it opens up if I want it” vs. “Trying to make it in a market that doesn’t really care about the concept of so-called prestigious arcane European institutions”), and that all this would make me unhappy.

    It bothered me somewhat that G’s worries are based on the assumption that he can’t really move to my country (which is probably true, not unless he is willing to take a serious pay cut AND suffer through from generally poor work culture/work-life balance in the few positions that would be available to him) and that it would be easier for me to move to be with him. I plan to sort what he means by this exactly, as I think it has to be at least a somewhat a two-way street. But to be fair, I wouldn’t mind moving out of my country as I don’t care what I’m doing as long as I’m somewhat fairly compensated/earning enough to support myself and I’m not miserable at work, but I’m not willing to be a trailing SAHM (I’m terrible with kids and housework). My concern with any pay cuts resulting from my relocating would be more in relation to how it would affect equal parenting dynamics if we decide to have kids, whether we can afford to throw money at problems /housework /childcare, etc. (Basically, I don’t want to be in a position where it makes more economic sense for me to quit working and stay home with kids than to keep working.) I also worry that G will not be happy at his new job and decide that he doesn’t want to stay there for the long haul (again resulting in uncertainties for us).

    For my part, I’m 32, so I’d like to set a timeline on figuring out where we are going with this. I hadn’t planned on getting married or (maybe) having kids before finishing grad school, and other than the location issue (which I think is a logistical one and can be worked out IF we have a common understanding of what a life with each other will look like), I know I really like G and can see myself being with him for the long haul. We haven’t talked seriously about the implications of marriage, kids, finances, and family though, except in a vague way. TBH the discussion is made more difficult by the fact that I am very Type-A, anxiously planning ahead/anticipating for potential issues in life type (but obviously life does not go according to plan as the other day’s post has amply demonstrated; I got burnt out in my current career and have acquired chronic health issues to boot, so not directing so much energy in the career direction at this point although the grad school was a personal goal of mine so I want to get through it, and I’m at least earning some stipends over that time), and G tends not to think about/analyse issues too far ahead of time and tends to deal with them as they arise (which makes for some very panicky and confusing times when G does not understand colleague interactions at work, or is met with an unexpected response).

    TLDR : I want to set an end date (of maybe 6 months to 1 year from now) for the long distance relationship, to figure out whether we have a common view of what we want out of life and want to get married to each other (e.g., I’m on the fence about having kids, leaning towards maaaaybe yes but only if I have an equal co-parent). Either we will decide to get married and take steps in preparation of being with each other at the end of my studies, or we will break up. Any thoughts, advice, recommendations on what the issues are that we would need to discuss to arrive at either conclusion, honest takes on the situation? General categories would be career, children, location, family relationships (my parents may likely need some financial help although not a ton), family finances (including tax effects of marriage, and prenup) but would appreciate any pointers on specific issues that we should discuss, or any outside resources for coming to a decision on this topic. How do we talk constructively through the uncertainties of relocation without jeopardizing our relationship? We’re willing to be somewhat flexible, but there are pros and cons to each option and while it’s a bit hard to discuss without having a concrete move in mind, putting it off indefinitely isn’t going to work (or could it just be me being super anxious?). I remember someone posted a list of issues they wanted to understand before they got married on this site, but can’t seem to find it now. Thanks in advance for any insight.

    • Anon

      Oof. Just realized my TLDR is super long. Sorry, I’m super stressed and rambling. Basically, I’m asking for any advice/recommendations on major issues tp talk through before deciding whether to get married (especially one that involves one or both people moving internationally to non-English-speaking countries).

      • cbackson

        No advice specific to your situation, but Hong Kong is amazing and if you have good credentials and an entrepreneurial mindset, can be a really good place to launch a career. It is, however, INCREDIBLY expensive, so if early retirement is something you’re gunning for, that’s an issue to consider.

    • DCR

      You are 32 years old, think you want kids, and having been dating this guy for a year. Frankly, if you don’t know if you want to marry him after a year, I would break up with him. I would feel differently if you didn’t want kids, because then the time wouldn’t matter. But, you will be 34 when you finish school. If you want kids, that is the time to seriously think about starting to have them. If this guy isn’t willing to discuss these serious issues after a year and agree to a plan forward (and/or if you don’t know after a year that he is the one you want to marry), it’s time to start looking for a different partner.

      • Anon

        Exactly.

        The stuff about visas, Hong Kong, grad school, all that are distractions – if you’re 32 and it’s been a year, you know what’s going to happen.

        Ask me how I found out the hard way.

    • Senior Attorney

      Is he trying to discourage you from moving to be with him? It sounds like maybe he is, and is trying to sugar-coat it by framing it as concerns about what you may regret. I would listen very very carefully to that. You both need to be F*ck Yes if this is going to work — make sure he is, too.

      • Anonymous

        Agree. OP, you need to be open to hearing his reluctance. You need to have a specific conversation about future plans. If he is non-commital then you have your answer.

    • Anonymous

      You actually don’t sound type A at all. For reference, DH and I had an international long distance relationship. I was 23 and DH was then 26. Within one year of dating, we had made a commitment to try to be in the same country and move in together with a view to eventual marriage and kids. We also had a plan as to how often we would see each other in person during the time apart. DH moved (post PhD but without a job) to where I was attending grad school on our 2nd dating anniversary. We got engaged 18 months later and married a year after that.

      Honestly, from reading your post, it doesn’t sound like he wants to make future plans. I would not invest anymore time in this relationship without a clear path forward for how you will maintain contact in the next 6 months and how you will be together in the same location within 1 year – 18 months. International LDR are hard – really hard due to immigration issues – you have to plan and think long term otherwise it’s almost impossible to be together. If you haven’t had open and frequent conversations after a year together about what your future holds, you need to ask him if he really wants to be together longer term.

    • Anon

      Lots of moving parts here. I think the thing that stands out most is that you are 32 and aren’t sure you want to marry him after dating for a year. That’s not killer, but it seems like a big strike against the relationship for me. What are your reservations? What more do you want to know about him? What do you expect to learn in year 2 and 3 that you don’t know yet? Thinking about those questions may help you understand where you really sit in the relationship.

      Second, I agree with another poster that suggested you look very closely at whether/why your partner is discouraging you from moving with him. One explanation is that he is not all that serious about the relationship and doesn’t want you to try and make it work. The other is that he doesn’t want you to feel pressured into making this decision, wants to make sure you fully on board for the pros and cons, etc. etc. I’m not sure how you work to establish this distinction, but it should be on your radar.

    • Anon

      You’ve made your decision to go to grad school for two years right? That’s a long time and things could change. Why are you stressing yourself out and making this decision now? You have a potential built in end date of end of grad program, just make a decent plan of regularly seeing each other while you’re away and see how the relationship shakes out. You don’t need to, and frankly I wouldn’t agree to marriage and country of residence two years out with someone dating a year, and I don’t think it’s fair to you or him to do that. You have two years to decide what you want to do and where you want to be.

      Just keep dating and see what shakes out.

      • Anonymous

        Disagree with this. This shuts you off from being open to meeting the right person while at your grad program. After a year you either know or you don’t.

    • Anonymous

      Quit it, do your own thing. He’s not that into you, “He says he’s worried that I would regret building a life around the relationship”; that says it all.

    • anon

      I mean, is he your person, or not? This is a lot of words for someone that, frankly, you sound lukewarm about. Your words: “like him a lot,” NOT, “love of my life.” I sure as heck wouldn’t get into a long-distance international relationship if that’s where we stood.

  30. JuniorMinion

    Like the outfit – would pair with cognac, grey or nude shoes though

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