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Suit of the Week: Hugo Boss

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For busy working women, the suit is often the easiest outfit to throw on in the morning. In general, this feature is not about interview suits for women, which should be as classic and basic as you get — instead, this feature is about the slightly different suit that is fashionable, yet professional. Oooh: I love this light gray suiting from Hugo Boss. The waist detail on the dress is pretty — and while some details like this can be fussy, this one just looks cool. I also like that it comes with full-length pants (there are so many wintry suits with ankle pants right now! How are you guys wearing them — casual days only? Warm winter days only? With booties?). Interestingly, readers just had an interesting discussion on what color of gray suits you can wear to court — and of course we've discussed in general whether women lawyers can wear interesting suits to court. Pictured: The jacket is $595, and the dress is $595. If you're looking for a plus-size option, I like this gray suit. (L-all)

Sales of note for 4/24/25:

  • Nordstrom – 7,710 new markdowns for women!
  • Ann Taylor – Friends of Ann Event: 30% off your entire purchase, including 100s of new arrivals
  • Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 25% off
  • Boden – 25% off everything (ends 4/27) (a rare sale!)
  • The Fold – Up to 25% off
  • Eloquii – Spring Clearance: Up to 75% off + extra 50-60% off sale
  • J.Crew – Mid-Season Sale: Up to 60% off sale styles + up to 50% off summer-ready styles
  • J.Crew Factory – Extra 50% off clearance + extra 15% off $100 + extra 20% off $125
  • Kule – Lots of sweaters up to 50% off
  • M.M.LaFleur – 3 pieces for $198. Try code CORPORETTE15 for 15% off
  • Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 50% off last chance styles; new favorites added
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Talbots – Friends & Family Event: 30% off entire purchase, includes markdowns

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

261 Comments

  1. I just went to my hairdresser and she cut off all of my ultrafine, ultrastraight, no body hair into a short layered ?pixie. It looked cute when he finished with a swipe of some sort of (wax?), but as soon as I got home…. it was flat, no longer had this nice/random/fun shape and now I just look… like a big head with no hair.

    Help?!

    1. Ack, I’m sorry! I find that dry shampoo gives my hair body (even when it’s not dirty) if I spray it up along the hair instead of just over the top. Or you could embrace the Audrey Hepburn/Emma Watson no hair look?

    2. I have this hair and this was my experience with a pixie as well. I’d recommend a texturizing power or spray like Big S3xy Hair. Basically, I think you’re going to need a lot of product to maintain any kind of piece-y ness or shape.

    3. You can always call and ask to stop by when she’s not busy so she can give you some styling tips.

    4. I have a pixie – longer in the front, shorter in the back and shaved on the right side. My everyday styling products are:
      -whatever volume-boosting mousse I picked up while grocery shopping, applied before blow-drying
      – Aveda Pure Abundance hair potion – very small amount sprinkled at the roots after blow-drying (sometimes I skip this)
      -Aveda grooming clay (it’s a men’s product) – warm up a pea-sized dab in your hands and work it through. This is what brings out the piece-y look for me.

    5. I have a pixie and I use volume-boosting mousse nearly everyday on wet hair. I like the mousse that has a little more hold. I brush my pixie into shape and, a few hours later, smooth it out by rubbing a paper towel through my hair.

      Some days, I use pomade. Pomade is a little trickier. I find it works best on dry hair. Take a small amount, rub in in your hands to warm it up, then run through hair. Style using fingers–not a brush or comb.

    7. If you like bumble & bumble products, try their Texture cream and Semisumo for hold. I have a pixie too, but my hair is coarse and thick, so I just use Hairdresser’s Invisible Oil with Semisumo.

    8. Also have a long pixie and I use spray wax (Redken) for a piece-y look, but I swear by Living Proof full dry volume blast and Redken root powder for volume/texturizing.

      I also find that instead of deep conditioning/babying my hair like when it was long, it actually looks better when it’s a bit dry. Plus I get it cut much more often, so it keeps the ends clean/not split. Therefore, I use a clarifying shampoo daily (esp with all those products) and no conditioner.

  2. In need of podcast recommendations–

    I am new to the world of podcasts and looking for some recommendations. Looking for something educational and entertaining, preferably no longer than 1 hour. For reference, I am currently hooked on Tell Me Something I don’t Know.

    TIA!

    1. Smart Enough to Know Better is a mash-up of a science podcast and a stand up comedy hour and I really enjoy it. Hits both the education and and entertaining buttons for sure.

    2. Stuff You Should Know. Amazing!
      Bowery Boys is similar but with NYC history, if you’re into that.
      I also really like Hidden Brain and Science Vs.

      1. All the “Stuff” ones are good. I really like “Stuff you missed in history class”

        Will be adding some of these other ones, too! Thanks, ladies!

      2. +1 for all of the “how stuff works” series, especially Stuff You Should Know. Educational, entertaining, and funny.

    3. Crime/Mystery:
      The Message – War the Worlds like … make believe story
      Criminal – each episode goes over a different aspect of crime.
      Mystery Show – solves a mystery that can’t be answered on the internet (no longer running but old episodes are good)

      Science/Human Experience:
      Only Human – their tag line is “because every body has a story” health stuff we can all relate to
      Hidden Brain – a conversation about life’s unseen patterns
      Radiolab – so good.
      Invisbilia – is about the invisible forces that control human behavior – ideas, beliefs, assumptions and emotions.

      Technology:
      Reply All – all about internet – My favorite podcast currently
      Note to Self – answering how digital stuff affects our life and how to make technology work for us the best way

      Story Telling:
      Death Sex and Money – about all of life’s topics that we should talk more about and no one does
      Story Corps – short stories
      This American Life – needs no explanation
      The Longest Shortest Time – stories about parenting and families

      Money:
      Planet Money – quick money stories
      Bad with Money with Gaby Dunn

      Self Help:
      Happier with Gretchen Rubin – how to live happier (drink the kool aid)
      Awesome Etiquette – answers etiquette questions

      Current Culture:
      Slate Culture’s Gabfest
      PopCulture Happy Hour
      Dinner Party Download

      1. There’s a new crime podcast I’ve really been enjoying. It’s called Crimetown and this is the first season. They’re exploring the mob/corruption history in Providence and I find it fascinating. I think you have to listen to the entire thing because they add to each other but it’s so worth it.

      2. Not educational per se, but I love Dear Sugar (co-hosted with the author of Wild). Also like How I Built This, Pop Culture Happy Hour, and Modern Love from the NYT.

    4. If you like true crime, my favorite is My Favorite Murder. I also really like How I Built This – about how different companies got started.

      1. I just started My Favorite Murder! I am also working my way through Sword and Scale.

    6. Past Present podcast is three historians talking about current events and how they connect/develop from historical events. I love it so much and learn every week. Definitely on the liberal side, but extremely thoughtful. Almost exactly an hour long.

    7. 99% Invisible is educational, about all the little things you never notice.
      Sawbones is fun medical facts and history.
      Lore is an educational podcast about spooky or scary things in history.

    8. Keepin it 1600 is a politics pod. It’s funny, poignant, educational, and the hosts are transparent and introspective about their own biases.

    9. I like interview shows, especially if they are a mix of comedy and education.

      Nerdist – A comedian (Chris Hardwick and 2 friends) interviews all sorts of people, especially actors and other comedians
      The Bryan Callen Show – Comedian (Bryan Callen) and an academic co-host (Hunter Maats) interview authors, professors, and other comedians
      The Chase Jarvis LIVE Show – This is the guy who started CreativeLive (online education) and he interviews a wide variety of people about their fields, particularly creative fields. He is a photographer himself.
      StarTalk Radio – Neil deGrasse Tyson’s show
      The Tim Ferriss Show – The 4-Hour Workweek author/blogger interviews all kinds of people about their fields and tries to learn as much as he can that is applicable to other areas of life. He just released a book based on those things that he’s learned called Tools of Titans, but I haven’t read it yet.

      1. Oh and I’ve found a bunch of podcasts that I listen to off an on by searching for authors and actors I like to hear them interviewed. I don’t necessarily keep listening to all the episodes of that podcast, but it has introduced me to a number of them that I otherwise wouldn’t have found.

    10. I think that More or Less from the BBC should be required listening for everyone. (They take numbers that people throw out in speeches or consider “common knowledge” and look at where they come from and what evidence there is for them. Plus, dry British sense of humor.)

      If you like Tell Me Something I Don’t Know, you’ll probably really like Freakanomics, too.

      Slate’s Lexicon Valley is a really interesting exploration of language and words.

    11. I don’t think anyone suggested TED Talk Radio – this is a great one on all kinds of random topics.

  3. I know that many r e t t e s are lawyers, but I’m curious as to what the non-lawyer r e t t e s do for a living?

    (I definitely struggle to with imposter syndrome at my job sometimes. I work for the government in a small office in an area that deals with things like construction projects and transportation. It’s a male dominated field and I’m the only woman who works in my office and the only one anyone can remember ever working here. I’ve only been here for a year and a half, it’s my first job out of college. It’s not glamorous or high paying but I tell myself that I’m doing my best to make sure that the path is easier for the next woman who works here. It helps that my boss and co-workers are great and will defend me against the sexism I get from outside vendors and clients sometimes. I try to tell myself that I am high-achieving despite not always feeling it. I admire all of the women who post here)

    1. I do public affairs/media relations for the government. (it’s awesome, I love it.)

    2. I’m in STEM – Business Intelligence Analyst (Reporting and Data Analytics) for a Top 25 private university in the Boston area.

    3. First off, I’m sure you are doing great and the fact that your boss and co-workers have your back is awesome! Also, it might help to remember that as a newly hired graduate you aren’t (or shouldn’t be) expected to have tons of substantive knowledge about what you are doing yet. If you are getting good feedback from your boss and feel like you are learning new things and being given new opportunities and challenges you are on track. When I started a new job I definitely felt like an imposter for a while because I knew so little about the business and my boss seemed to know so much more, but then I remembered that he was 10 years further into his career than I was and had been at the company for 15+ years.

    4. I’m an engineer currently working for a non-profit in transportation, but spent most of my earlier career working for government. It can be hard with no women mentors to give guidance. Is there a chapter of WTS (Women’s Transportation Seminar) near you? That might help give you some perspective. Don’t know what to tell you about the Imposter Syndrome, as I still suffer from it after 20 years of experience and countless positive job reviews. Just hang in there, and remember that they didn’t just hand you that engineering degree or your job because you are a woman. You earned them.

    5. Social science and market research, also a recent grad. I feel very similar to you sometimes (small office, male-dominated – though coworkers are awesome) but I think you have a great attitude towards it! Just remember: it is highly unlikely that you’d be incompetent in every area and at the same time be amazing at convincing literally everyone else that you’re doing fine.

      1. This was actually one of the best arguments I heard for combating imposter syndrome. You have to assume everyone around you is really stupid if you think that you are not any good at what you do but have them all fooled!

      2. I need to print your last sentence out and hang it near my computer monitor. Thank you for that!

    6. I am an events manager for a scientific society. The society’s membership is probably 80% men, but my line of work is probably 80% women so it’s an interesting balance between the people I work for and the people I work with.

    12. I work in finance as an equity research analyst. I used to suffer from imposter syndrome too. A lot of the guys here always seem to know everything. What helped me was to ask a lot of questions – I have learned a lot, but the most important thing I have learned (which has boosted my confidence tremendously) was that a lot of the know-it-alls would get tripped up on very simple follow-up questions. It’s never my intent to trap anyone, but it’s amazing how often it happens.

    14. I’m a scientist working in “industry”, as the STEM jargon goes. I’m often one of the only women or the only woman in the room. It can be a little intimidating, but I just remind myself that I earned my way to this room through literal blood, sweat and tears.

    15. Higher ed admin. My first job after college was an AmeriCorps position at an underserved rural high school. I made a pittance (still do, in comparison with many women on here) and lived in the middle of nowhere, but I can honestly say that I helped people change their lives for the better. I would rather look back on my career and know that I made a difference, than have a fancy title and salary. Not everyone is called to be a big lawyer or ibanker, and thank God for that fact ;)

    18. I work in fundraising for a nonprofit arts organization (which is not remotely male dominated, and certainly not straight-male dominated).

    20. As my username says, I’m in marketing, currently in the tech industry. I’m in Silicon Valley, so most marketing jobs tend to be related to tech :)

      Re: imposter syndrome, don’t stress, we all deal with this! What I’ve learned is that there’s a lot of things that I think are common sense, but a lot of people don’t know. This isn’t because they’re dumb or uninformed, they just haven’t learned the same things I’ve learned. Similarly, that means that if they know something I don’t know, it’s not that I’m stupid or uniformed, I just haven’t learned those same things yet. This mentality has enabled me to have a number of interesting conversations in which I feel smart, the other person feels smart, and we both walk away a bit smarter, because we learned from each other. I think switching from, “I don’t know this thing, therefore I’m not really good at my job/smart/educated/whatever” to the mentality that we ALL have things we need to learn or hear about, I was much less inclined to feel imposter syndrome. I’m still not 100% shielded from it, but it’s helped. I’m just shy of a decade out of school, and I still have a lot to learn, but I’m definitely feeling more confident in my expertise and industry :)

    21. I am a software consultant, and I struggle with imposter syndrome too. I just remind myself that my amazing boss thinks I’m great and doing well, and I trust her to tell me the truth.

    23. I’m in financial sales/relationship management and I’m 7 years out of school. I manage a team of 6 and $25M+ in annual revenue, I’m the first woman on my team to hold this position, and I still struggle with imposter syndrome frequently. Having some professional success under my belt helps combat the feeling that I have no idea what I’m doing and that someday everyone will figure out that I’m completely incompetent, but it still nags at me. I just want to let you know that you’re not alone and that even “successful” people feel this way sometimes.

    25. Head of office (kind of managing partner) at a satellite office of a niche engineering firm. And also senior engineer at said firm.

    29. Professor in a STEM field. Still mostly male dominated, though most of my students are female.

    30. Tech project manager for a global retail healthcare business. Keeping it vague as we have unrivalled market share in the UK – so I will definitely out myself with too much info!

    31. I’m a grad student in the humanities. I know that technically I don’t fit into the intended demographic of this s*te but I like the grown-up, ambitious atmosphere here (and also I’m trying to look more professional at conferences and such).

  4. I’m the person who posted last week about anger management and realizing I need to get a better handle on my constant irritability (yes, I’m in therapy, and I am also changing my birth control, which I think is contributing to this issue). Anyway, I read this book called The Cow in The Parking Lot, and it made me realize that I’m holding onto a lot of things that I shouldn’t be and they are kind of hot button issues that I lose my temper over easily. My husband and I have been together since we were in college, and got married at 23/24. Because we were so young, we made a lot of hurtful and immature mistakes in how we fought and how we communicated with each other in the early years of our marriage. In reading this book I’m realizing I’m still carrying around some of the really old wounds from those days, despite the fact that I know he’s changed his mind on a lot of the things we used to argue about, and both of us have grown up and matured a lot. An example of an old argument– years ago he told me he thought I was weak to take medicine for my anxiety and that if I would just meditate, I would be fine. He doesn’t think that way anymore, but I’m still hurt when I think about it. There are several issues I can think of like that. I know that holding grudges like that is stupid and hurts both me and our relationship. I need to forgive him and move forward.

    This maybe sounds dumb, but how? I’m glad I realized this is an issue, but I’m not sure what to do moving forward. Is this something I need to discuss with him? Or just kind of privately forgive him? Any thoughts?

      1. Same. When OP said she was still mad about something from a year ago I was like wait is that not normal?

        1. Ha! My reaction is to pull back a bit, but otherwise carry on the relationship so long as the person has apologized and all that jazz. The problem becomes that I cannot ever, ever forget the incident/comment and it colors my thoughts when I interact with that person (so far forever). Just like the OP. It’s one of the reasons I haven’t ever been able to give an ex a second chance (not that this is a huge problem because my exes should all still be exes IMO), but it also ruminates in my friendships if there is something that has really hurt me.

          In a related vein (perhaps), I also acutely remember any time anyone has ever been upset with me about anything. For instance, I vividly remember the barn manager being very upset with me for riding my pony across the wet grass because it left deep hoof prints in the grass leading to divots later. I guarantee this women doesn’t remember this at all, as it happened almost 25 years ago, but I still remember it like it was yesterday.

          1. What do you mean when you say it “colors your thoughts when I interact with that person”?

            This is interesting because I feel like to me there’s a difference between holding a grudge about an incident, and that incident changing your view on the person. I see holding a grudge as continuing to be angry, whereas changing your view on a person is a normal response to the input of information.

          2. That is an interesting question. Perhaps I am not articulating it well. It’s more that the memory of the comment or hurtful thing never leaves my mind. I become more guarded around that person. I won’t allow myself to be vulnerable/as vulnerable around that person again. A protection mechanism of sorts.

            My therapist suggested that it’s not entirely healthy to cut people out of my life/off for a bit if they hurt me. Friendships ebb and flow due to incidents, but I didn’t think that was particularly abnormal. Now that we have matured, we talk through things instead of ignoring them and the appropriate party apologizes when appropriate, but that doesn’t mean that I ever forget if someone has hurt me. Does that make sense?

          3. Oh I should have added that I don’t stay angry. My outlook on life has changed, generally, and I try to rid myself of negative energy as quickly as possible. For example, I am not angry at my ex for being a total a$$hat to me, I have moved on, but that doesn’t mean that I will ever forget what he said or did. I did try to give him a second chance after he apologized and fell over backwards trying to make it right, but I was so impacted by what had happened that I would have a panic attack if I even thought things might go south (even if there was no indication they would). That is an extreme example, but even with my best friend I recall what she said to me in a particular situation that hurt me quite a bit. We have a great relationship and I love her to death and would do anything for her, but that doesn’t mean I have forgotten that moment and I am definitely more guarded with what I tell her on that particular topic.

          4. I think I see what you’re saying. There have been times when I have decided that I actually _do_ need to be more guarded around someone as a result of an ugly incident between the two of us, it probably shouldn’t always be the result because depending on the incident it might not really be necessary.

          5. I vividly remember times when people have been upset with me. I don’t really hold grudges against anyone except myself, I guess.

          6. Well, I don’t know how your therapist defines “hurt” but I will unapologetically cut people out who hurt me. Like, why wouldn’t you? Life is too short and busy to be dealing with people who aren’t nice.

          7. Anon at 4:23 – I took it more to mean if it is a person who I otherwise value and this is not a pattern, that I should work on forgiving and moving on as opposed to cutting and not dealing with it at all. So yes, I think she would agree that there needs to be no time in my life for full-time jerks, but that I shouldn’t cut off someone who has otherwise been a good friend or whatever because of one incident. In the past, if I have been hurt enough, I would stop interacting and that friend would become an acquaintance. Sometimes without notice. I am MUCH better about communicating my feelings than I used to be, so the without notice part doesn’t really happen anymore.

          8. I see. Yes, good friends should be given a chance, but I can’t imagine any of my good friends doing anything hurtful, and if they did, they would be horrified. Among the people I have demoted from friend to acquaintance are the chronically late, narcissistic, and victims. I just don’t have the time or energy, either to deal with them or to explain how to be a functioning human.

          9. Oh absolutely, re: the chronically late, narcissistic, and just plain mean. I definitely have no hesitations about cutting those people out. Using my bff as an example, it was something she said that I felt was a judgment about me and my choices and hurt due to the circumstances at the time. I told her I was hurt and why, which then caused her to express that she was hurt due to some nuances in the discussion. We took some time to feel and process our feelings and then we sat down and talked about it. The actual topic was never resolved in the sense that we didn’t come to an agreement about it, but we aired our grievances and are still very good friends. That said, I have a hard time opening up to her about things on that topic and I will probably not be able to be full open and vulnerable with her on it to the extent I was before. Being vague is probably not helping my explanation any, sorry.

    2. I am also terrible at forgiveness so I will listen well here, but I think that it isn’t something that will be improved by rehashing old hurts with him. In the intervening time he has said that he doesn’t believe what he used to, so it sounds like what you need *from him* you already have. But how do you let go of the old, hurtful thing? I don’t know… therapy? I can’t *wait* to get back to therapy in January to ask my therapist how to forgive people.

    3. I find the affirmative act of forgiving something incredibly liberating. It’s hard to explain but I just give myself the explicit permission to let go of something and it usually works. It’s a very conscious decision. Not an “I should forgive” but an “I will forgive.”

      One thing that I think helps (vs. my friends who I see hold on to hurts longer) is I tend to inherently view things from multiple perspectives and even for things that are objectively wrong I can often see where someone was coming from or at least how they ended up there. Sometimes it takes time though.

      1. I also tell myself that “I am letting go of this” and I find it liberating, like a huge burden off when I let go of grudge…I don’t know if that is forgiveness.

      2. I have found it really hard to forgive people mostly because I have always felt that *I* was not allowed to feel wronged or angry and that I needed to forgive people and basically shut up about it. This stems from my childhood where I was basically told as much, and I think I have a knee-jerk reaction to forgiveness because of it. I will have to think about changing the framing of it to “I will forgive”, because that sounds better.

        1. I think that’s a big part of it! Whenever I talk to friends about this, the ones who have a hard time letting go are the ones who see it as something they are doing for the wrongdoer, whereas I always view it as something I am doing for myself.

        2. Exactly how I feel about it and pretty much what I experienced growing up. I seemed to be the one who always had to “give,” never the other person. I think it’s related to the fact that girls are supposed to be nice, not pushy about their own wants and needs, supportive of others, etc.

    4. I think you might ask yourself why it still bothers you. Do you not believe that he has changed his mind? Or is there another reason? Has he apologized for hurting your feelings? Do you believe the apology was sincere if so? Realizing that you’re holding a grudge is a good first step but I think it’s hard to forgive someone unless you can answer why it bothers you.

      FWIW, I have had to admit to myself a few times that the reason something someone said or did bothered me was that it hurt my pride. I then had to reason with myself that that wasn’t a good reason to hold a grudge, and it was easier to forgive. I’m not saying that’s applicable in this case necessarily, just that you may find that once you examine the reason why this still bothers you, you can either address it if it’s legitimate or realize that it’s not legitimate and just consciously decide to let it go.

      1. as an addition to that, you can ask yourself what outcome you desire or what you would like to accomplish in general. Working through it for yourself and deciding “I’m ready to put this in the past” or “I need a sincere apology from a person before I can forgive” will help you to go through with one or the other.

      2. Oooh, that’s a good point about why it bothers me. There are four things that really bother me:

        1. The anxiety medicine thing
        2. Not helping me during a family crisis earlier this year where I had to do a ton of emotional labor and coordinating logistics and calming people down– he didn’t see or hear about a lot of what I was doing, so it’s not really his fault that he didn’t understand how badly things were going for me. I think I just magically expected him to know what I was doing and how to help.
        3. When I make a mistake and say something about it, him responding with some version of “I told you so/you should have known better” – an ongoing issue
        4. Telling me that he can’t/won’t be my cheerleader – many years ago, but still ongoing

        I think the first two I need to completely let go based on the fact that he’s changed/his own limitations/compassion/empathy, what have you.

        The third is an issue of my pride. I tend to really overreact when he responds in a way that challenges my pride or is critical of me in any way, even if he’s right. I need to let past incidents go, but work better on calling him out in future incidents without flying off the handle. There was an incident that fit in this category that happened recently. I initially flew off the handle about it, but later when we discussed it, I was able to calmly explain why it upset me, and he understood what I was saying and agreed that he had been a jackass. Didn’t apologize though.

        The last is something I think I need to bring up and get figured out with him.

        I also feel like he’s holding onto a lot of old hurts. We just aren’t in a good place at the moment, and it really sucks.

          2. oh, I think 3 is pretty crappy too, but I’ve heard this complaint or versions of it (like he wants to tell you how to do things “right”) from many, many women. 2 and 4 are a little more jacked up IMO

          3. For real. If this is him getting better, he must have started from pretty awful place.

          4. That may be the case. If I typed out all the things I did you’d probably think I was an awful partner too.

        2. This sounds like my former husband. I couldn’t let go of those kinds of things, either, because they are awful and unless the partner demonstrates real and lasting change, they are not forgivable, in my view.

    5. I’m still hurt by things that happened 20 years ago and really shouldn’t matter, and I also feel deeply ashamed of a few things I did 20 years ago (normal kid stuff being jerks or unkind) that I would venture to guess the victim doesn’t remember, let alone my name at all. I do not know how to let these things go. Hey, friend from sixth grade, I’m really sorry I told you Green Day was super lame and hurt your feelings while I was jamming to Ace of Base. Looks like you ended up being right on that one.

    6. I forgive people who have been incredibly bad to me because I don’t want to spend my energy on people who have upset me and holding grudges is an expensive affair.If they are close to me and it is an one off thing, I forgive them because they are human too and I may also inadvertently hurt them sometimes. However I learn my lessons and be careful next time when the similar situation arises.

    7. Have you tried seeing it from his perspective, as a thought exercise? Like even if you KNOW he’s wrong and he was wrong in a hurtful way, just try to force yourself to walk through how he came to that conclusion and where that’s coming from. You know he’s not a malicious, stupid person, so there has to be reasoning (even if it’s faulty, incorrect, biased, hurtful reasoning) behind the things he’s done and said, the same way there was reasoning behind the immature, hurtful things you’ve done and said and wish you could take back. If you really work at dropping your defenses long enough to work through why he did/said those things, the anger may just… evaporate. That’s the only thing that works for me. It’s incredibly difficult to do because your hurt puts a wall up and makes you dig your heels in.

    8. As we say in the book (The Cow in the Parking Lot), carrying a grudge is like taking rat poison and expecting the rat to die. I suggest that you look at the totality of your relationship over time. I personally was carrying anger toward one of my sisters for what, of course, I thought were good reasons. She was a grudge-bearer too. I just decided to drop my anger toward her. Of course, the fact that I wrote the book radically changed my relationship to anger–it pretty much disappeared in my life, although I admit I do get peeved sometimes. It was bliss to be on good terms with her again. She became extremely generous to me, as she had been in the past.
      With a partner, a good sense of humor can go a very long way. In fact, one mark of a good relationship might be the ability to joke about incompatibilities, insults, misunderstandings, etc., so that the bad things are actually transformed into something good. I know my remarks probably are not very helpful–but perhaps it would help to read the book again–and again. Meditation, in fact, is a great way to detach from your anger. Is he meditating? Yes, you should try to talk about the issues.Take them for what they are, just acquire some distance from them. Thanks for reading the Cow!!! Susan Edmiston

  5. I’ve been thinking lately about the little habits and lifestyle choices that separate people who make good money choices from people who make bad ones. I’m doing this as part of an attempt to really manage my money better and reduce spending. What I’ve noticed so far from the people I know who do this well – they spend money on experiences (travel, skiing, music, whatever) and less on clothing, they drive old (reliable) cars, they don’t go out to eat all the time, they save in every paycheck and don’t get derailed by expenses like car repairs, and they exercise/watch their health. Overall, they really seem less concerned with “status” – I know a few acquaintances who have made it rich in Silicon Valley, but if you judged them strictly by clothing or cars, you’d never know it. Are there any other habits/choices that you’ve noticed among your friends and family that I could look into?

    1. Housing choices are important too. You want to live in a nice place you can reasonably afford but it shouldn’t be the fanciest, most upscale place or have a ton of space you don’t use (if a smaller place would be cheaper and just as comfortable).

      1. Agree. The little things add up, but it’s hard to get little things to add up to structural expenses like housing, location, student loans, or a car payment.

    2. Other than the exercising, you’ve definitely described my husband and me. We make a lot for our very LCOL area, but other than our splurgy vacations (which we don’t advertise outside of our immediate family), you’d never know it. We drive old Toyotas, leave in a modest home that we mostly maintain ourselves, and sock away most of our paychecks. We do go out to eat a fair amount, but that’s more because we want the convenience of not having to cook and clean up, and half the time it’s for pizza or burgers or something very affordable like that. That said, I have friends that save like crazy and just happen to splurge on clothes instead of vacations. I’m not sure the key point is *what* you spend your money on, it’s that you save the vast majority of your earnings and only use a small fraction on “fun stuff.” I think that fun stuff can be whatever you want it to be.

      1. Agreed — Everyone has different priorities for what to spend their money on, and they’re all fine! The important thing is to save the majority of your money and that almost always involves living below your means.

      2. Agree – it is not WHAT you spend your money on (some people choose cars, others houses, vacations or clothes).
        Instead it is: a) living beneath your means and b) not falling into the easy trap of keeping up/judging yourself by others’ spending choices (unconsiously too).
        My friends/family who are concerned with “status” are on a hammster-wheel and it is often hard to watch.

        You deserve a return on your human capital investment !!
        So pay your future self first – which for me means allocating the 1st chunk of dollars to the future
        You have no obligation to contribute to the consumption/aspiration churn, and only when you choose to.

        Keep your big fixed expenses (e.g. housing, car, etc.) comfortably low.
        Be able to clearly delineate Want vs. Need. (You can get wants, just know the clear difference)
        Get a handle on your monthly& yearly spend – including all the unexpected things that are one-timers
        Emergency fund, emergency fund, emergency fund

    3. You might want to check out the book The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas Stanley. The premise of the book is that most of the wealthy in this country live a lifestyle that you’d never guess that they had a ton of money.

    4. Amongst my friends I see a lot of wants masquerading as needs. I think being able to separate what you actually need from what you would like to have is important so that you acknowledge that buying all your groceries at whole foods is not non-negotiable or that a new work bag is not “required” for your career. Aside from a small minority of very disciplined (and in my opinion slightly extreme) people, humans need to splurge every so often and if you don’t acknowledge that you are already doing that in places, you’re likely going to overdo it in other places (this is true of food also I think).

      For me, I am very good at saving money on small things every day – bringing tea bags to work so I am not buying tea at starbucks all the time and never paying full price for clothes or paying for shipping. But I suck at big things that don’t immediately affect my life like saving more for retirement or paying off student loans faster so that’s what i am working on. In that respect I’m very much a set it and forget it kind of person so I need to figure out a way to automate higher student loan payments.

      1. Your first paragraph sums up a splurging difference between me and DH. He has this perception that I spend a lot more on stuff we don’t need because I’ll buy, say, a new work bag, clothes, etc. when a good sale hits. But then he’ll spend $30/week on fancy cheeses for him (and only him) to snack on. Everyone needs their splurges, I don’t begrudge him his fancy cheese at all, but it’s a little annoying (and inaccurate) that he doesn’t see a fancy cheese habit as a splurge in the same way that a new work bag is.

        1. Yeah, but unless he’s buying a LOT of cheese, he’s probably spending a lot less money on his habits than you are on yours. That’s probably why he sees a difference.

          1. Unless she’s buying a $120 handbag every month, she’s not spending a lot more. It’s probably equal or even less.

            I compared my shopping expenses with Mr. AIMS recently and while I definitely buy more stuff I don’t spend more than he does because I buy on sale and he just buys whatever he needs exactly the moment he needs it and usually pays more than I would have for the same item.

        2. Same here, with the fancy-cheese-eating husband! Though my “splurges” are like, $80 handbags (marked down from twice as much, or whatever) so his cheese habit does actually = my clothing indulgences in pure dollars. . . but mine come in the mail in a big box and his get added in with the groceries and are food so in his mind it doesn’t count.

          1. I think the solution here is that the grocery store needs to start selling really nice handbags.

    5. I see a lot of shopping as a source of entertainment, which really hurts your ability to save a significant amount from each paycheck (and I realize the irony of writing this here, but I come here purely for the discussions). People who seriously watch their finances will mull over every purchase. Getting a good deal on something that you didn’t need to buy in the first place is still money wasted (of course the definition of ‘need’ is highly subjective).

    6. I think one reason that people see a difference between splurging on travel and splurging on clothes is that people who splurge on an experience are often satisfied being frugal in pretty much all other areas of their lives, whereas people who splurge on stuff tend to want to have other stuff, plus they want to have some expensive experiences too and the result is they just spend way more money overall. Sure, in theory you can be super super frugal and buy a really expensive handbag once in a while but it seems a lot less common in practice than being super frugal and buying a really expensive vacation once in a while.

      1. This is true. What is the handbag going to go with, and where are you going to take it? There are other things that go along with it.

    7. In general I see people buying things not for status but for durability and lasting. So maybe they do spend a bit more for a washer and dryer but they researched and got the one that will last, and give them more bang for their buck.

      Less impulsive spending, Less time spent shopping as a hobby, Less need for designer labels. They had a plan for their money, they know how much they have and how they plan on spending it. Spending money on experiences or buying things like yarn for knitting which is an activity they enjoy, but not spending money just on stuff. Spending money that allows them to stay connected with their community.

      I grew up without a ton of money, most of my clothes coming from Goodwill or garage sales but I had private violin lessons and was in fencing etc. So from a young age my parents communicated to me what they thought had value and what should be focused on.

      Its such an interesting topic. Like my husband and I don’t have a TV, never have had cable, always buy used cars, stay in AirBNBS, etc but we never think twice about buying a book we want to read. Yes I usually tried to get it used but if I can’t get it used or from the library, I feel no guilt buying it on my kindle.

    8. I don’t know if this is a magic formula, but I think here are a few
      – Understanding the difference between wants/needs. I have a friend who consistently cannot fly home to see her parents and yet since college has always had the newest gadget (laptop, flip phone, iphone, VR system, gaming system, you name it). These are different than buying a yogurt that tastes better and costs 50c more because foods are needs.
      – Saving a little every single paycheck so it is not even a part of your operating budget.
      – Not having credit card debt.
      – Inversely, investing so that instead of paying on money you owe (like credit card debt) your money is making money for you.
      – Exposure to good money management

      A friend said to me after getting married and combining finances, “It just literally never occurred to me that I shouldn’t spend my whole paycheck. I mean, I never spent *more than* my paycheck, so what’s the problem?! But it’s my husband’s rule…” She then went on to talk about how her mom always had the newest handbag, etc. I think this combines a few themes – wants/needs, exposure to good money management, and saving. For my friend, if she had $500 total in her bank account, that meant she had $500 to spend before she got paid again. There was no stashing for emergencies, retirement, investing, etc.

    9. You’ve described our family. I always feel a little wasteful when I spent on “experiences,” but that is what matters in life, not stuff.

      Housing is also a huge thing, especially in a city in a HCOL area-there is absolutlely nothing wrong with living in an apartment or condo instead of a free-standing house. It sure beats a scary mortgage.

    10. On the eating out habit, my DH and I had to dig into what we were really buying when we decided to eat out. We’re in the Bay Area, so chain restaurants still mean that we’re spending ~$40 on a meal. We determined that this is ridiculous if we’re just being too lazy to cook. So, we made a rule: if it’s a lazy or quick meal night, we eat something cheaper, like Chipotle. If we want to treat ourselves for a celebration or a date, we should just go all out and have steak. This has significantly curbed our “eating out” budget, and increased our satisfaction with our meal choices. Steakhouses feel like an actual splurge, and convenience meals aren’t disappointing because they’re cheap. The pocketbook effects are a nice side effect :)

      Housing choices make a HUGE difference, esp. in HCOL areas. We’re looking to move into a bigger place, but trying to buy the things we actually care about. I don’t need more square footage in a 3rd bedroom, but I do want a bigger kitchen. So, if a place has more square footage, it’s only worth it to me if that is allocated correctly. Really drilling down into what I actually want when I say, “I need a bigger apartment” has helped curb the desire to move into a bigger place just for the sake of moving. I think the ability to really pinpoint what problem you’re actually trying to solve is a huge help in being smart with money.

      This is true in our gym selection and car selection as well. I don’t need a swimming pool or tanning salon, just the free weights. I don’t care that the gym is “fancy” or whatever… you have a lot of squat racks, I’m there. So, we only pay for what we need. I think the ability to pinpoint exactly what you need makes a difference in what you spend and how you spend. Maximizing value vs. dollars/amount of stuff only.

    11. In addition to the points mentioned above, I think making your savings “automatic” helps too. Summoning the mental willpower to not spend the extra money in your checking account is much harder than having it go right to your 401k, investment, or savings account and literally never seeing it in the first place. Set up auto-transfers to these accounts on a recurring basis and bump them up as you get raises.

      My husband and I have also developed “rules” for our money, which just makes things easier and more consistent. We receive a significant portion of our compensation via our annual bonuses, so we set aside 5-10% for “fun” each year and the rest is automatically saved. I think having a “rule” and not having to think about it and decide how much to spend versus save makes it simpler and doesn’t test your willpower so much.

    12. I think making good money choices starts with paying yourself first. I find that people I look up to/respect in a financial aspect ensure that after fulfilling their needs (true needs), they fund their savings, retirement, college funds, etc BEFORE spending money on other things. Then what’s left becomes their spending money. Too many people these days do it the other way around. From what I know/have seen, this group of people also generally don’t have credit card debt.

      To me, I don’t think it matters what you spend that leftover money on. Some people like shopping, others like traveling. To each their own I have found.

    13. Never, ever run up credit card debt.

      Set aside savings first.

      Better to spend more on quality stuff than amass a lot of sub par items.

      Don’t go berserk at sales unless you were planning to buy it anyway. Would you have bought an item if it wasn’t at half price?

  6. I am tempted to quit my job today. I feel marginalized and I just don’t see why I have worked so hard for all this time.

    I did everything right. I have more than one grad degree from a top 3 school. I just got a huge promotion. I have a 7 figure net worth and no debt other than a new mortgage. I am healthy. But my life is completely empty and my last 3 boyfriends have dumped me because they never saw me/I was late to a date AGAIN because of a work commitment.

    Today I was looking forward to a party and a client just promised something to a third party TONIGHT. Without checking with me. But hey, I am a single woman with no life, so why would she check? Of course I can drop everything and do it. Meanwhile I just got a stack of Christmas cards from co-workers – all of them married, all of them with bright shining families and happy holiday plans, all of them able to attend a party when they please.

    I’m jealous of the cousin of the poster from a couple of days ago who dropped out of college to marry and have a child. Her life is so much richer than mine. I have nothing to look forward to and once my aging parents pass I will truly be alone in life.

    1. I feel you. :(

      Don’t quit yet. Can you go to this party even for an hour? And don’t make the mistake of assuming that everyone with a happy family is able to attend a party when they please, or that they’re always as happy and shiny as they look in their holiday cards. It might be time for a new job, or to explore a reduced schedule at the one you have.

      1. Thanks January. I am interviewing. There are almost no other jobs in my city for my niche. And my parents are in a home here.

        So far employers are suspicious of me because why would I take a 2/3 pay cut unless I was failing at my current job? I do the whole song and dance about being single, loans paid off, good savings, etc., but they obviously do not believe me.

        1. Well — for starters…I wouldn’t bring my finances into that conversation. I would more frame it as you are looking for a better work/life balance, or that you are looking for something more personally fulfilling than your current job and you are suited for this job because of x/y/z. Framing it as “i want this job and I don’t really need the money” isn’t attractive.

          1. But they bring it up. They come out with “We know how much [employer] pays people in your job; why on earth would you be interested in this?”

            I talked balance (I travel internationally half the year, often with 1-2 days notice) and fulfillment but they keep harping on the money!

          2. You need to find a few quick anecdotes to “show” how bad it is, and you should “tell” them that at this point, there is no amount of money that makes it worthwhile for you.

            Start by saying something like, “As a manager, you know that you have to pay people enough to attract and retain employees, and some of that depends on the stress and hours that the position requires.” Segue into your “shows,” and basically say that it’s not worth it to you anymore.

            Keep that last part positive: personal connections are important, at this point, you would rather see your friends or parents than (insert Scrooge McDuck diving into a pile of gold coins).

          3. I’d be blunter — “I have two local parents in assisted living and while my current job has given me a lot of experience, I am ready to start a new chapter in my professional life that lets me assist with their care/treatment. I understand that there is a paycut involved and I have used my time at Hellish Sweatshop to manage my finances in a way that makes this a transition I would welcome.”

            And “Hellish Sweatshop is a great place to work and gain experience but my family commitments make it not the job for me anymore.”

            For all I know, you take both parents to dialysis every day. For all they know, that may be true (or true in the future; for any of us).

          4. I am guessing that you’d be moving to the non-profit/govt sector. I work in public sector that has an equiv well-compensated private sector parallel and do a lot of hiring.

            In response to a question like that I would lean heavy on how you connect to the mission of the organization and how this is driving your change, with a brief aside regarding how your reject golden handcuffs.

            Often times when people focus on the financials and the “ease” of the new job, they come off sounding uncommitted to the org and sometimes snobby (ie I’ve been an investment banker, OF COURSE I can become the CFO of this community redevelopment org.)

    2. I’m sorry :(

      I think it’s time to push back a little bit. People have said it here before and it’s very true – in Big Law (or similar Big Job) people will only give you as much of a life as you take. Yes, there’s probably some sexism and bias against you because you’re single, but a bigger factor is probably that many of the people with families stand up for themselves and say “No, I can’t do XYZ in the next hour.” Try it, especially if you’re on the brink of quitting. It might not be the most optimal thing for your career, but it’s certainly better than quitting today.

    3. Ohhh I have been there. Honestly, I *did* quit my job because I wanted relationships and a life that big law didn’t let me have. What would happen if you said the the client, “I’m sorry I can’t get that for you until midday tomorrow”?

    4. I’m sorry. My deal with myself is never to quit on a bad day.

      Start leaning out. Put an out-of-office message on vmail and e-mail. Pretend you have to go pick up kids / walk the dog. Start making a habit of being *reasonably* available (and reasonably unavailable) and see how it goes. And start looking around — not every job is like this.

      Signed,
      Transactional attorney (but in a predictable regulatory field, not M&A (where I was miserable))

    5. Girl. First off, let’s pause for a minute and ADMIT THE SUCK. That is craptastic and unfair and not cool, and I’m sorry. I have been there, and it sucks.

      (I always feel like it is important to acknowledge this sort of thing, because in biglaw, at least, there’s this…normalization of that kind of thing, which I despise. It is sucky, and we should never pretend it isn’t.)

      Second, I agree with January. Those shiny happy holiday cards can have a lot of sadness behind them – infertility, a sick kid, alcoholism, a lost job…those don’t show up in the holiday card. (Side note: this is part of why I hate family photo holiday cards – I feel like they put the focus on the sender rather than on the recipient.) I just got a holiday card from someone whose marriage I know to be in absolute ruins due to one spouse’s affair and the other spouse’s emotional bullying, but the card shows a smiling, happy family in matching sweaters and a dog with a bow around its neck.

      Finally, this doesn’t have to be your life. If you have a job that will improve if you set boundaries, start setting boundaries. If you have the kind of job where you can’t set boundaries, make this the year you get a new job. It is never too late, and you are never too old, to truly live the rest of your life.

      1. +1 re; holiday cards being about the sender. I got one from a friend that was just a portrait of their new baby (not even in christmas clothes) with something like “happy holidays” printed on the back. Dude, you already sent me a birth announcement, which is what this is. JUST TO REMIND YOU THAT I HAVE A BABY! Love, friend. /rant.

        1. As a counter, many new moms feel very unattractive/fat right after having a kid and don’t want to pose for a family holiday picture (or they do and the photos turn out terrible). Hence….cute picture of the baby.

          1. I’m totally empathetic to that…But this baby is 7 months old, so. I guess I just find it off-putting because it’s not a *Christmas card* in any meaningful way….you just sent me another huge pic of your kid to stick on my refrigerator. But, at the end of the day, this minor annoyance is not a hill I choose to die on. :)

        2. These people are not sending you holiday cards to make you feel bad about yourself. Get over yourself. If you don’t like it, throw it in the recycling.

    6. You cannot judge lives based on Christmas cards.

      I have three kids. My Christmas cards have pictures of three smiling healthy children who I am grateful for. They do not show me arriving late to a meeting because the toddler puked in the car on the way to daycare or the time I argued with my DH about who was going to make supper or Monday my oldest cried because I couldn’t make a field trip.

      You will find someone. And right now, you are bright, smart, caring and you have friends and family who love and appreciate you.

      And F the mean client.

      1. We have photo cards mainly for older out-of-town relatives not on FB or e-mail b/c they otherwise get no pictures during the year. Ours are more real life snaps and maybe one or two deliberately assembled whole-family ones (otherwise we grownups are never seen and people still like us).

        For our in-town friends, they see enough craziness IRL or via e-mail / FB. This is the yin to that yang.

      2. My friend has an extremely unhappy marriage. Shouting at each other to the point that the kids scream because that’s normal conversation, not speaking to each other to the point that you have to tell both of them something because one won’t tell the other, gaining 40lbs each in the last year because of stress, hiring a private investigator to follow the other one around, calling friends crying at 3am once a week to talk about the unhappy marraige… But they had an adorable Christmas card!

        Christmas cards mean nothing but how people looked for 30 minutes one day, posed, and edited. And remember – if they make you feel miserable, don’t display them or even keep them! Do what makes you happy. And just because you haven’t partnered and procreated doesn’t mean your life is not worth advocating for. Go advocate for your happiness and fulfillment and find something better. Because you deserve it.

        1. I drew my own cards back when I was single. No one ( = aging relatives and home town friends) wants my art anymore, just pictures of my children. Humbug.

          1. I want your art! Seriously, I love the holiday photos, but I really miss the beautiful art holiday cards that no one sends anymore. Next year I’m sending beautiful cards and sliding a photo inside if I feel like it.

          2. I get people complaining that I don’t send out Christmas cards with my family on them. It is not that I have anything against it, I just don’t have a desire to do so. The thought of getting five male humans to get dressed and sit for photos is also not particularly pleasant.

          3. I would love this! I think it’s awesome, and I’m not really a huge fan of holiday cards with the children and nothing else on them. Aren’t they supposed to be about the whole family and the lives of everyone involved?

    7. What happens if you just say it’s not possible for it to be delivered tonight? Is that possible?

    8. It sounds like at this moment your job isn’t as fulfilling as the life that you think you might have otherwise. It’s hard to equate that, though. You don’t know that your life would be better and all of those things would happen. You also can’t see what’s really going on behind a picture. However, if you aren’t getting enough fulfillment from your job and these feelings more frequently outweigh the positives, it does sound like time for a change. It is important to not make an emotional change in the heat of the moment. I have been there and it is so hard to keep going. What helped me was making a decision to move towards change. Change for me meant finding a new job that was less stressful and then quitting my terrible firm where I was always taken for granted. And when I left I felt validated that it was terrible, and not just for me. So, give yourself a pep talk. I don’t know exactly what your job is, but if you can move to a different place and be comfortable with the changes that would entail (possibly less money but hopefully not, having to start over, perhaps less advancement) then it is absolutely worth it. I stayed in a job that in hindsight feels like an abusive relationship in that I was put down and devalued and told that I would never find something better. Well, I did. More money, less hours, nicer people. Those jobs exist, they really do. For now this is outweighing the chance that I might miss the action and prestige of my old position, but that is still a small concern for me. I think the solution is determining what makes you happy overall, not just around the holidays or when your personal life goes south, which happens to us all? Is it work (which is totally fine) or is it a less demanding job and more personal fulfillment? I think there was a post this week about a women with two choices, one job that was more responsibility and more work, and the other was less pay but more free time. And I believe the answers were fairly split. Neither is bad or wrong but it’s important to make the best choice for you and know that you will likely always want the other at times. How often do those co-workers complain about their families or are envious of your debt-free lifestyle? Could that be part of where this extra work is coming from?

    9. You are all right and so supportive; thank you.

      I will see if I can buy an extension until tomorrow morning. Doubtful since this deal “must be signed in 2016” (o really then why are you still figuring out major deal terms today?) but I will try.

      Unfortunately I think I am stuck in this job because of my parents in assisted living. I can’t move them with me to some new city, and there are so few employers here who need someone like me.

      1. I felt that way too, since I’m in a niche field. So I leaned way, way out and made finding a new job my part-time job. I agree with the above poster, if you are going to quit and have solid references it really doesn’t matter. It’s uncomfortable at first but it is all about getting back what is yours. You are worth more than this and deserve all the good things. You may feel stuck, but you always have choices. Sometimes reviewing those choices would get me out of a deep funk. I mean, one of those choices could be quitting the next day or putting a date on the calendar. Just knowing that I could do that if I really needed to kept me going.

      2. A week or so ago there was a convo on here where someone wisely said something along the lines of- some days, winning the game is just staying in the game. Don’t quit without something else lined up. You’ve made it this far so set yourself up with an exit plan. Also, even if the party doesn’t work out, take 15-30 mins for yourself this afternoon. Turn your monitor off, brew a cup of tea or go to starbucks and sip something cozy there. Deep breaths and think about how awesome amazing bad@ss u are. You are a wonderful daughter, and smart and savvy professional, and 2017 will be full of better and new experiences. Hugs!

      3. Just wanted to share I’m same boat with regards to assisted living and feeling tied to a town as a result. It’s a tough situation, but it’s so good of you to be there for your parents. I hope you find a better job soon!

      4. I was in this position six months ago having a nervous breakdown at my job which was working me to the ground. My issue was that I felt like I had no control which it sounds like you may feel too. What finally made it better was realizing that there is no “try” – you must DO – you must draw boundaries, tell the client not tonight unfortunately. It’s a choice. Once I internalized that staying at my job and working the crazy hours was a choice, things got better from there. No one was forcing me to stay late – sure, there was a lot of pressure at my law firm and it would have looked bad if I had decided to go home when my colleagues where at the office. My boss would have been pissed. My partners may have thought twice about staffing me on the next deal. I have student loans I am still paying off and query what I would do if I lost my job due to drawing boundaries. But I was not literally chained to my desk, I could decide to not leave the office at 2am and check my email at 6am first thing in the morning. I did small things like being less responsive, saying “I’m too busy” and it made a huge difference – I am still at my job now. I still have miserable days. But I choose to stay in this crazy field, choose to come to this job every day, choose to be very responsive to clients and partners, choose to deal with the personalities…the switch in mentality has made a big difference. Your parents are in assisted living, but you could move to another town, get a more relaxed job and visit them since you would have a reduced schedule. You are by no means “stuck.”

    10. First, master the words “I can get to this after…..” This is after the gym, after dinner (which can include a date), after you get home, whatever. You will make yourself crazy if you insist on getting everything done *now*.

      Second, find a woman mentor in your field who has a spouse and kids. Take her out to lunch. Talk to her about making room in your life for you.

      Third, post your general location. Many women here will be happy to let you cry on their shoulders over a cup of coffee.

    11. Hugs to you.

      If you looked at my cousin’s Christmas card photos for years you would have seen a smiling, affectionate husband and wife with their sons. You wouldn’t have seen the husband’s alcoholism, the wife’s addiction to gambling, the fact that neither of the boys were his because she had affairs, and the six figure credit card debt. Things are not always so rosy behind those photos.

    13. First, your situation sucks. Absolutely. I echo the other advice PPs gave about pushing back, seeking out mentors, etc.

      But I don’t think it helps to tell yourself that behind every shiny Christmas card is some secret tragedy. Maybe there isn’t. In fact, I hope there isn’t. I hope these people are all just as happy as they project and I will be sad to hear if that’s not the case (and yes, I’m realistic and know it’s likely not true in all cases).

      My point is that their happiness does not affect yours. Them being happy doesn’t take away from your slice of the happiness pie. Them being happy isn’t an effort to shine a light on your present unfortunate circumstances. It has nothing to do with you and the best way to be happy is to focus on yourself and stop making comparisons to others. That road will get you nowhere, and you deserve so much better from that.

      Finally, I am sorry about your parents’ situation. It must be very hard for you and I can tell from your comments that they are very lucky to have you for a daughter.

  7. I’m looking for a delicate necklace with a bezel pendant diamond (or cz) that is off center – I feel like maybe these were popular a few years ago because I saw them everywhere, but now can’t seem to find one. Anybody seen one around lately? Preferably gold but silver would work too.

    1. I think I saw these at Gemvara a while back, not sure if they are still carrying them.

  8. Anyone have a sleeper sofa or futon (queen sized) that they love. We’d use it more for sitting, but also as an overflow sleeping solution for guests

    1. I have a futon that is pretty decent. It’s not the most comfortable sitting area in the world, but I wanted to get a couch without flame retardants and this was a much more affordable option. It’s more comfortable for sleeping than it is for sitting. Check out The Futon Shop online – they probably have some Christmas deals right now.

    2. We wanted an American Leather sleeper sofa (memory foam, neat mechanism without giant metal bar), but did not have $3200, but found out that American Leather manufactured the sleepers in West Elm and Room & Board sleepers and found a perfect condition use one on craigslist for $400. Of your budget is bigger than ours was, the “Deluxe” sleeper line at West Elm is American Leather manufactured and super comfortable. I’ve also heard good things about the CB2 Lubi daybed.

    3. I used to have a sleeper sofa and it was the bane of my existence. That thing was soooo heavy, that when I first moved (and used friends to help move me), it took 5 relatively strong 22 men to move it and I thought they were going to die. And the mattress was not comfortable, so no one used the bed on it anyways. I was so happy when Salvation Army took that thing away, I will never ever ever have another sleeper sofa!

  9. We’re a family of 5 traveling to London next spring – 2 adults and 3 kids ages 9 to 14. I’ve been looking for a hotel or serviced apartment that can accommodate us. We don’t need luxury, just a clean quiet room with moderately comfortable beds and convenient to public transportation so we can get around to see the sights. I’m finding the choices overwhelming and hard to evaluate! We’d prefer an apartment for the extra space and potentially an extra bathroom, but are also open to a hotel with a family room that sleeps 5 or two rooms if necessary. Any suggestions or recommendations? Thanks!

    1. I rented a lovely flat in Hampstead Heath via airbnb that fit the bill. It’s a bit further from the main tourist sites, but close to a tube stop and more of a family feel, which was what we were looking for
      But in general, AirBNB had a good amount of options in all neighborhoods. Hotels tend to be on the small side in London, not great for squeezing in extra bodies.
      But if you haven’t yet booked flights and want to consider hotels, I’ve found really great deals on Expedia doing packages in London. Far better prices than any other city or site I’ve searched and way cheaper than booking independently.

    2. I’ve posted about this group before, but I rent flats in London through One Fine Stay – it’s a property management company that has a bunch of flats in London that it manages. They also always make up the beds w/ nice linens, leave good towels in the bathrooms & are a number to call if anything goes wrong / with the resources to back it up. It’s a little more expensive than AirBnB, but I like the peace of mind when traveling internationally.

    3. I travel to London 3x year [business trips] and usually stay for a weekend as well. I confirm that finding nice & affordable accommodation can be a nightmare. I stay in hotels in London so that I can get to work from the hotel either by Tube or on foot. I used to stay in different hotels each time I visited since none has been as pleasant as I wanted to. Last time, I got mega lucky and stayed in Zetter Hotel close to Islington/Hatton Gardens. It is a walking distance from Tube station [Farringdon] and bus lines, but it is walkable distance to the center [I walked there]. I will only stay in this hotel from now on. In case you are set on having an appartment, check AirBnB as others have recommended. Enjoy your trip!

    4. I’d advise you stay on the Northern (black), Central (red) or Grey (Jubilee) lines. Try to stay close to Zone 1. You can get anywhere in central London on those lines within 30-40 mins, tops. Have a great time.

    5. Check AirBNB, One Fine Stay, Kid & Coe

      My advice is to find a place to stay within a 10 minute walk of a tube stop.

      Neighborhoods that I would find kid friendly and easy to navigate:
      – Angel
      – Highbury and Islington
      – Camden/Primrose Hill Area
      – Pimlico

      My husband and I joke that everything in London takes at least 3o minutes to get to. Either a 30 minute walk, a 30 minute bus ride, a 30 minute tube ride. We no longer blink at the idea of a 50 minute walk, because hey the bus ride would take 45 minutes, so we might as well walk it! So just consider that when you are planning what you can get done in one day. I have a ton of trip itineraries planned out if you want them because we have constant house guests so I am pretty good with figuring out the best activities.

    6. My family of 5 + my dad met up in London last January and stayed in a fabulous AirBNB in Notting Hill. The owner was wonderfully responsive and the location was terrific! Posting the link separately to avoid moderation.

  10. Something about the proportions of this suit look off to me. Is the jacket too long for the dress? I can’t quite put my finger on what bothers me about it.

    I had this experience with another Hugo Boss suit – that beautiful blue suit that went on sale at Nordstrom over the summer. The dress is lovely, the jacket/skirt look great together, but the jacket/dress look pretty much like the picture here. Am I over analyzing this?

    2. I generally prefer it, but I find that however Boss does it, I can manage a standard jacket with their dresses.

    3. I think it’s the relative placement of the waist of the jacket and the folds across the front of the dress. The bottom fold looks like a waistband, but it’s at entirely the wrong height for that.

      Also, there’s no such thing as “overanalyzing” an outfit that costs $1190. Never buy something that expensive if you don’t love every detail.

    4. To my eye, the neckline on the dress is too high. If it were a couple of inches lower, the angles of the v-neck would align more with the angles of the jacket lapels, and would be a more balanced look. I am flat-chested though, & not at all concerned with cleavage. But I do find this kind of high v-neck to be quite awkward to style & wear.

  11. Anyone use any under the desk exercise equipment? I saw an add for a cubii under desk eliptical that looked interesting, which led me into the rabbit hole of all the under desk workout equipment on amazon. Anyone use anything like that with success?

    1. I see it as pretending to work while pretending to exercise (so a fail at both). I’d rather take 5 minutes to get something I printed to the printer 4 floors below me and take the stairs both ways.

    2. Beware major back strain with stuff like this. Not worth it.

      I do have a FitDesk in my office and I use it when I am away from my computer, reading something in-depth or watching CLEs. It’s awesome.

  12. Do you dress differently if you work with all-men? If so, how? Does it matter how junior/senior you are?

    1. OMG, I used to work with all men and was a flat-out slob.

      Then we got in some younger (and much younger) woman and I totally stepped up my game. I hate myself for being this way a tiny bit (they are all actually awesome, but not chasing two kids out the door each morning, either). But I do look (and feel) so much better.

    2. I feel like this is industry dependent. For example, working with all men in tech vs. oil and gas vs. banking, etc.

      All I can think is:
      1) I am less influenced by those around me… I mean, it’s not like I look at the guy next to me and go, “I really need those shoes.”
      2) I wear less girly patterns / shapes, and avoid anything too fashion forward (e.g., anything asymmetric, anything with a very modern shape).

      1. Actually, #1 might not be true. My north face short coat was purchased completely because I liked how practical it was for the guys I worked with. But the influence is less strong than with female colleagues.

    3. I used to be the only woman in my work location and we worked in a construction-related industry. I didn’t dress any differently than I otherwise would. I still wore pencil skirts and cardigans. I wore flats or heels (don’t wear heels anymore but that’s because my feet just hate me now, not because I also work with women now) but kept steel toed boots under my desk in case I needed to go out into the warehouse.

      The guys at work might think that I was totally dressed up because I was in a skirt or a dress but I don’t remember them saying anything about it. We’d joke about my shoe change though. Due to the nature of our office/warehouse, the guys wore anything from jeans and t-shirts to slacks and button down shirts, so my business casual clothing was just fine.

    4. I joined a small company where I was one of two women, and once she left my work wardrobe has “devolved” considerably. Haha. It’s probably partially due to the weather (and how freezing my building is year-round), but also due to my general comfort level/ease of living. I am a fairly junior person.

      I will likely start trotting out my nicer business casual clothes in the spring, once it gets warm enough to wear a skirt without risking frostbite (I kid) or a shell without multiple layers over it.

    5. Yes, I work on an all-male team. We are casual so I could get away with it, but I don’t dress fashion-forward at all at work. I dress pretty plainly and definitely have a uniform. I don’t want any of the many stereotypes of the only woman on the team (that I’m distracting, that I am silly and unfocused on work, that I am some tempting siren as the youngest person and the only woman, that I can’t walk fast enough because I am in dainty heels, that I am not smart enough, that I was not hired for my skills but for whatever other reason, that repeating an outfit is a fashion crime, etc.) All these stereotypes stink, but I dress pretty awesome on my downtime, and I literally have no decisions to make in the morning, so I just deal with it.

    6. I’m an engineer and I work with 95% men. It definitely influences my choices. I do dress femininely, but I am careful to not over-do it. No ruffles, no puffy sleeves, very little pink. I will wear a dress, or I will wear a pink shirt, but I will not wear a pink dress. I wear heels, but they are generally wedges or very wide heels so that I do not walk slower or louder than the guys I work with. I also wear minimal jewelry.

    7. I’m the only female attorney in my office (other female employees are paralegals, assistants, etc., and have a slightly more casual dress code) and I find that I have a lot of flexibility in what I wear because the men have no idea what’s appropriate. I might step up my game a little if I worked with women, but overall I wear what works for me. Suits for court, business casual (slacks with blouses and cardigans) otherwise, jeans on Fridays, casual on weekends.

    8. I’m late to the party but will play anyway. I share an office with two (tall) men, and we all work for another (tall) man. I definitely started wearing heels a lot more frequently and now it feels weird if I’m wearing flats on a Friday because everyone around me is giant.

    9. Hmm… interesting,… I actually found the men in my group were stepping up their game (wearing suits all the time even though we’re business casual) so I’ve tried to step up mine

  13. Anyone want to share their favorite holiday gift that they’re giving this year?

    My family agreed on no big gifts this year, and I found the perfect gift for my Dad- a novelty yacht captain hat. We have lots of running jokes about old men in captain hats (a la Hugh Hefner) and what we will do when we get that luxury yacht (we both love Below Deck). I am so excited for him to open it.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0042L6D90/

    1. Now I want a novelty yacht captain hat.

      I found the perfect gift for my DH. He’s been saying how he wants to check out the symphony. (Not something we usually do or music we usually listen to.) I found out one of our favorite bands is playing with our local phil next year. The tickets sold out instantly. I was about to pull the trigger on ridiculously overpriced tickets for the event on Stubhub, but something told me to check the original Phil website again. They had just released new blocks of seats. I got us two tickets without the surcharge. Feeling like a rockstar.

      1. That is spectacular, practically a hat trick (hats!) of awesome components. Total score.

    2. I’m really excited about three gifts I’m giving!

      For my husband, metal signs from two of his favorite breweries in a place where we no longer live. He’s mused about how great some metal signs would look on a particular wall in our house and I am just tickled that I found these!

      For my brother in our sibling secret santa, a fondoodler! See fondoodler dot com! Ha it’s so silly and I think he will be delighted!

      For my kiddo, a play kitchen. She is obsessed with pretending to make us coffee and pancakes and the like, and I know she’s gonna love it! (I also love that I got the ikea one and tricked it out in cute colors that will look good in our living room.)

      1. great! I already have my presents, but now it is clear that I should have bought fondoodlers for everyone!

    3. I got my nephew stomp rockets after seeing all the recommendations here. I’m really excited to see his reaction to them.

      My niece is really interested in science and engineering so my husband has loved sending her books that he’s loved on those topics. We sent her a book on all the engineering issues involved in building things underground. I think he’s had it since he was a kid and it does have pictures and diagrams throughout. He’s been waiting months to send it to her. She’s 6 but gets so excited by these books even if they are a little beyond her reading ability. I love seeing how excited he is to send it to her.

      My sister and I bought our dad a drone. Her fiancé got one on Black Friday and my dad proceeded to spend hours at my apartment watching youtube videos of drones with cameras attached. It was my sister’s idea and is just perfect. I’m only sad I didn’t think of it myself!

    4. I got my mom the Susie’s Senior Dogs book. She is an animal rescue nut and senior pet advocate like me, so it will make her cry in a good way and she will like that the proceeds go to help senior pups. I got my dad a personalized wooden six pack beer carrier. He is a home-brewer and he takes beer to his weekly meetings with “the scientists,” so I am hoping he will love having his own personalized method of transportation for his beer!

      1. I love the image of dad going to meet “the scientists” every week with his personalized carrier.

    5. My husband came home from the wine store with a $20 bottle to have with pizza one night and said the store manager had shown him a higher end bottle from the same winery that would “knock his socks off” but it cost over $100.

      It’s under the tree.

    6. We are giving our kid a Disney trip- he’s been asking for months if we can go and we told him no. We have to wait until school break, but I think he will have fun helping us plan

      1. I love this! But I also love Disney….My first trip with my parents was so exciting (I was 8 or 9) and something I still treasure.

      2. OMG! The week that my family spent in Disney World as a Christmas present circa 1994 is still the number one best week of my life. Check out TouringPlans for planning. I love the science behind it and it works.

    7. I am giving multiple friends the game Suspend this year. It’s not super personal, but it is one that I know many of my friends will love. My mom bought it last year for the family to play at Christmastime, and it has been a favorite since then.

    8. Teepee mushroom kit for my impossible to please brother in law.

      But really my favorite gifts are the ones I get for myself—this year nicer grapefruit spoons from crate & barrel. Such an improvement and I love grapefruit. :)

    9. I’m giving my parents tickets to Hamilton. I bought them in April. So excited to give them. My dad loves the soundtrack.

    10. I’ve been hearing for years that you should give kids “a want, a need, a wear, a read”. Last night, I hit it out of the park with my nieces on the wears & reads (sweaters from American Eagle Outfitters plus books that had hit both of their wish lists that mom & dad were shaking their heads over), plus the want for my nephew (Lego Technics). I’m going to be curious how the stain resist, no-iron shirt for church goes over with my dad, too.

  14. Does anyone have recommendations as to how Michael Kors pant sizing compares to that of Banana Republic or Ann Taylor?

  15. Just need to celebrate. I’m clerking after a year at a big firm. I recently decided to accept a position at a different organization that I am REALLY excited about, so I had to decline the offer from my previous firm. I liked the people at my old firm so I was nervous about declining the offer. Today and yesterday I spoke with the head of my practice group, the senior associate who mentored me and took me under her wing, and the partner I primarily worked for, and they were all so kind and encouraging, telling me that I was making a smart move and that if I ever changed my mind I should come talk to them. It was such a huge relief. I’m so glad to see that I can do the thing that is best for my career and say “no” to people I respect, and not burn any bridges in the process. I’m glad to also have something I’m really enthusiastic about lined up, and I can enjoy the rest of my clerkship without any question marks or stress about the next step. Woohoo!

  16. Thanks to whomever recommended washing one’s face with cold cream. I bought some ponds and gave it a go and I’m very pleased. My winter skin thanks you.

  17. I know several people LOVE Aquatalia boots, and recently someone was looking for them on sale. Well, Gilt (who has not had great sales lately) has a ton of them on sale, in all shapes, styles, and heights. Many of the pairs that run over $400 are less than $200. A lot are only of lucky sizes, but it’s worth a look.

  18. I pointed out to an acquaintance who I’ve known for quite some time that her law firm (she is a partner at one of the largest firms in town) is entirely White and that being a partner at a law firm that only has White lawyers is inconsistent with her supposedly feminist values. We live in a reasonably diverse community and this is the only one of the larger law firms in town with no history of ever hiring a person of colour as a lawyer.

    She is very offended with me.

    Thoughts?

    1. Everyone has their own definition of “feminist values.”

      Since she is a partner, hopefully she can use her influence to support hiring a more diverse workforce.

      What did you hope to accomplish by pointing this out to her?

    2. I’d be offended with you too. Making partner is hard. Making partner as a woman is hard. Making partner as a woman in the kind of environment that apparently doesn’t value diversity is even harder. But instead of supporting her, encouraging her, and having a dialogue with her about how she can improve her firm, you’ve chosen to chastise her.

      There could be a million reasons why she chose to stay at that firm rather than move somewhere else with better diversity. And moving to another firm would’ve accomplished what, exactly? Now not only is it a firm of all white people, it’s a firm of all white men.

    3. Firstly, I don’t equate “feminism” with a color, and second, I would also be offended if someone else told me that my employment was inconsistent with my beliefs. Both my employment and my beliefs are my business.

    4. How long has she been a partner and does she have any say in who gets hired? If she is a newer partner or doesn’t or hadn’t had any control over who gets hired then I don’t get why you pointed this out to her. I would say that making partner as a woman is a pretty big deal and maybe she is doing the best she can with what she has.

    5. And also? This is an acquaintance? What, exactly, did you hope to accomplish by having this conversation with somebody you don’t know well? And really? “Supposedly feminist values?” You said those words? Again, what possible good did you think was going to come of that?

      1. If you wanted to have the conversation/raise the issue, a better way, by far, would have been to ask her whether she’s ever considered the issue and how she deals with it in her own mind. But just slamming her with a judgment bomb, as you’ve discovered, gets you nowhere.

    6. What?? You are so totally tone deaf on this. From the way you’re reacting now to the words you apparently used with her, I think you have absolutely no idea how you’re coming across to others. Get a grip.

    7. I would be offended too. Making partner is hard enough. Don’t expect her to solve all of her firm’s problems too.

    8. She and I are a similar level of call, became partners at the same time and are both young mothers and she frequently brings up “our struggle” and feminism etc. However she is not a woman of colour and quite frankly I don’t think our struggles are similar at all. I find the idea that we’re faced with the same challenges is absurd.

      Yes she does have some say in hiring.

      I honestly find these responces very interesting so definately keep explaining stuff to me.

      1. As a POC you obviously have additional struggles, but I don’t think it is unreasonable for her to want to relate to you based on your common struggles of being women and young mothers in law firms. That’s a lot of common ground. And I agree with the other comments that feminism has nothing to do with race. You may also be experiencing racism that she has not experienced and can’t relate to, but that has nothing to do with how she’s upholding feminist values.

        1. See, and I think that’s part of our problem here. I believe that the discrimination I face combines racism and sexism. I believe that feminism must be intersectional.

          So that when she says something to me like that her firm doesn’t hire people of colour because they don’t apply or they always hire the best candidate etc I cringe.

          But again, this is all helping to inform me and I appreciate the comments and am learning.

          1. Keeping in mind I’m a somewhat thick-skinned litigator, I don’t think you overstepped, but I’d also be alarmed and offended in her shoes. Have you asked her what she thinks she’s able to do about the issue? Is there a way she can get involved in mentoring women in the pipeline (pre-law, law school, early career) so that the profession has more racial diversity overall? Putting the pressure on the hiring decision might be a source of tension, since she may have little control over what candidates are considered and how the hiring team approaches personnel decisions.

          2. Am totally unsurprised that you are getting these responses here, on a website that is mostly full of well-off white women for whom Lean In is cutting edge feminism. Also think that you are right and they are wrong. Feminism that’s not intersectional isn’t actually feminism.

          4. Yea, this site has a fairly weak definition of feminism. To them it’s a narrow descriptor of wealthy educated white women who have read lean in. This isn’t the place for a discussion on the complex and compelling nuances of feminism

          5. OP, FWIW, I think you are correct that feminism that isn’t intersectional feminism isn’t complete/good enough/real feminism/sufficient, or however you want to describe it.

            That said, I still think that you overstepped. There are so many factors that go into deciding where to work. You are trying to hold this woman to an impossible standard in order to make her prove to you that she is a “real feminist.” Hers may be one of the only large firms that has *never* hired a POC, but why should that be the metric? Is she supposed to move firms to a firm that has hired a number of POC? How many? You know very well that are very few law firms that have had a representative number of partners that are POC. You know very well that it’s so hard for women to make partner. She does *all* that work and gets told that it’s not good enough to please you and should have torched her efforts to go to a different firm? Is she supposed to base her employment decisions based *only* around that factor? Would that even be possible? To the exclusion of all of the other ways she could “live her values” at her current firm?

            I work in a diverse city and the last large firm I worked for had very few POC partners in its history. I didn’t like that. At all. But it was the best (and one of the few) employment choices available to me. My current firm has a high percentage of minority women. I love that. But I would be very offended if you questioned my credentials based on my old employer’s history.

            Based on your follow up posts, it sounds like she could benefit from some open and supportive conversations about racism in the profession and intersectionality. But starting that off by telling her she is “silencing” POC “the way white men have” is not going to be helpful.

      2. Ditto to Anon at 7:59.

        OP, I agree with your points, but I am not surprised she was offended — no one likes to be called out like that, and she likely has never thought about intersectionality in depth, so she feels blindsided. I’m also not sure what the point of bringing it up is, because if this mattered to her, she would be aware of it. This isn’t a priority to her.

        1. it honestly upsets me that the largest law firm in my city has never hired a person of color

          There are two significant ethnic communities in my city and most firms have hired from lawyers from one community or both.

          My parents as immigrants really struggled to find employment and faced significant discrimination and it upsets me that nothing has changed.

          As a mother it upsets me that this other mother who claims to be a feminist sees nothing wrong with the status quo. She sees no difference with her struggles and mine. She doesn’t feel she needs to do anything more or anything differently. She doesn’t see any of the unfairness I see.

          And honestly, if you work at a place of employment with a lot of employees that doesn’t appear to hire any people of colour in certain positions you shouldn’t be surprised that people of colour notice and aren’t impressed.

          1. Oh, I don’t disagree with you. I just think: she made her choices. Maybe there are reasons that this is rational to her, but my impression would be that this doesn’t matter to her. It doesn’t matter to loads of people, clearly. I just think you need to cross her off and move on to a more receptive audience. At a certain point, you don’t have to take on the burden of teaching her if you don’t want to.

        2. +1 I think there are more successful ways to raise the issue of intersectionality than the way you did, especially given that she is an acquaintance rather than a close friend or family member and a lot of mutual goodwill is often required for these conversations. I think some of the reaction you got was the defensiveness many people would feel when you think you’ve been working really hard and someone tells you it’s really not been hard enough. White middle-class women have usually only experienced discrimination in one way, so the concept of intersectionality can be hard to grasp initially, but their experience with gender discrimination makes it *possible* (but not always easy) to relate to other types of discrimination and the conversations are worth having.

      3. I am grateful for the women a generation ahead of me who broke into partnership. They made it possible for my generation. My generation is stuck at about 20 percent representation, and my hope is to make it better for those in the pipeline. I would hate to be judged for staying and trying to make it better.

        1. I suppose my question would be – are you making things better other are you continuing to discriminate against and silence women of color in our profession in the same white men have?

          And I’m not trying to be a jerk to you specifically but that’s the question I have for the acquaintance. And no, I do not believe that she is doing anything helpful to or for other women of color.

          1. I don’t disagree with you or your points, but like others have said, I am not surprised she is offended.

            In regard to your question, I think it’s a valid question to ask of people with whom you have a solid relationship. That said, you can’t make her take action, you know? She has to want to and if she has decided it’s not a priority for her, then that’s that. Very frustrating, but you can’t force people to do what you think they should do.

          2. Okay, with this new information I am changing my answer. I think it is legitimate to call her on it in the context you have described. Hopefully being offended is only the first step and she give it some thought once she calms down.

  19. This week we are all working on our year-end self-reviews. This consists of writing up how you met your goals this year, as well as rating yourself on various competencies (soft skills like partnership, organizational awareness, adaptability, etc). I happened to walk by a coworker’s desk and caught a glance of his review that he was working on. He had rated himself a 5/5 in nearly every category. We are an organization where a 3/5 is truly normal, 4/5 is a high performer, and 5/5 is way out of the ballpark and nobody gets straight 5’s. This coworker is a middle-aged man who is incredibly obnoxious and difficult to work with. I know we are supposed to rate ourselves on the higher end as “this is not a time to be humble” (as my boss put it), but it still angers me to see him give himself straight 5’s. This is such a great example of men seeing themselves as performing much better than they actually do vs women tending to sell themselves short. I know that is a broad generalization, but this little glance at his screen reminded me of all the things we read about men vs women in the workplace.

    Not a question, just complaining.

      2. I did! :) As I thought about this more towards the end of the day, I bumped them all up a bit, reminding myself that John Doe wouldn’t think twice about it.

  20. Question about dating and timelines of things advancing, etc.

    Could anyone comment on what they have experienced in terms of how many dates before you’ve kissed someone, put a label on it, and other milestones? I have very little experience outside of high school and college, where I think things were quite different from the real world. I’ve been on one date with a guy and it went really well, and we are going out again tonight. I tend to move slowly with this stuff, I think. I am a strong enough person that I am not worried about being pushed into anything I don’t want. But I am just curious about what seems to be the “normal” sequence and timing of events. Of course I know everyone is different and has different preferences, and people should do what they want, etc. But I’m wondering what the middle-50% looks like. Kiss on first date? Third date?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. There is no normal. That is the only thing you should really care to know. Would you act differently if you knew how you currently act isn’t “normal”? If so, you probably shouldn’t. If not, why does “normal” matter?

      1. Also, even if there was a normal, it would vary so much based on the circumstances. Who is the first or third date with? What was the date? Was the person feeling well? Was there any privacy at all? Etc. Just accept that there is no normal.

    2. I probably have more dating experience than the average person and I’m pretty sure everyone I’ve dated was insecure about this same kind of thing. Nobody will know what is “normal” and they will be worried about the timing. Personally I like to get the show on the road and kiss (or more) pretty quickly because I don’t have time to dodder around wasting time with a cow without getting some milk, but is that “normal”? Probably not, but beats me.

      1. +1 – I’ve tended to be a slower mover myself, and I would say 1-3 dates is “typical” for a first kiss. But it depends on a lot of things, including the guy’s temperament. Not sure about when to “DTR” – but Kate Bolick wrote in “Spinster” that 7 dates was the magic number (for her). ;)

    3. When I was dating, I was a slower mover. I don’t want to kiss someone who I barely know. It never interested me even if I was attracted to him. So I usually waited about a dozen dates to have the define the relationship conversation and kiss him.

    4. I’m currently dealing with this exact thing. If the Internet is to be believed, guys expect s*x by the 2nd-3rd date. I didn’t even kiss the guy until the 3rd date! I think you figure it out as you go – if you like someone, it’s ok to make a move. At the same time, don’t be afraid to stick to your boundaries. If he doesn’t respect that, he’s not worth your time.

    5. Agreed with all of this! Do what feels good for you in this particular situation, and don’t be bound by what the internet says is normal. I think meeting someone “blind” off the internet can also be different than meeting someone within your friend group or through a friend in terms of comfort.

      For me, first kiss has happened somewhere between dates 1-5, averaging around date 3. For more than that, it’s after we’ve decided to be exclusive, which is around dates 7-10 depending on level of connection.

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