Thursday’s TPS Report: Cotton-wool ruffled placket cardigan

148 Comments

1. it is perfect. i have it in the orchid and have to restrain myself from wearing it everyday!

2. I tried this on last week. While the points Kat made are very true (not busty, etc.), the quality is lacking. I know, I know, it’s J. Crew, not Saks. I would wear it running errands, not to the office.

   1. I ordered this in navy a few weeks ago (thinking all the same things as Kat). However, I thought that the fit was off and was not a fan of the quality. Typically, J.Crew cardis are a wardrobe staple for me but this one did not make the cut.

3. Just FYI- I have seen several past iterations of this sweater end up on the sales racks at J.Crew because the chiffon/ tulle has a bad habit of becoming discolored at the edges. The dark colors are probably ok, but I would be careful ordering the gray and heather stone colors.

4. The kind of thing that looks cute before it’s either washed or dry cleaned, after which it looks terrible. I’ve learned that these are cute if you buy them for a certain event, wear them for that event, and then resign yourself that they won’t ever look as good. I’m wearing a similar Ann Taylor sweater today and honestly, it’s a sweater that I want to wear on a business trip and then “lose” in a hotel room, to make me feel better about the wasted money.

   1. i bought multiples of the ann taylor cardi they had this season and after 2 wearings, they are beginning to pill and look awful. I am definitely regretting spending the $$.

5. It’s okay looking, but too close to something that could be purchased at Old Navy for a quarter of the price! (Like this one for example: http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=20408&vid=1&pid=761246 — not chiffon, but also not $88!)

   1. Oh, I like that one (from Old Navy)! I like the J Crew one too, but I am a cheapskate on a budget. $88 is a lot for me if the item is intended for running errands, not wearing to the office.

      1. I own the ruffled sweater from Old Navy, in three colors, and I love it!!!! Highly recommended.

         1. Says ‘brush clean’. Never saw that before. Seems odd. Anyone know if it means anything apart from the obvious?

         2. Thanks! I’m currently considering a quick stop there on my way home! – No idea a/b ‘brush clean’ — but I doubt there’s a problem w/ washing it… I’m yet to own anything from Old Navy that was more laborious than “wash in cold water and tumble on low”

   2. Oooh, good recommendation!

6. Anonymous and Sharon – thanks for the tips.

7. I never find anything that I ever like at JCrew, and I’m not feeling this sweater either. I always go in with the hope of finding something cute, but nothing ever appeals to me. This sweater looks blah and shapeless.

   1. They have some similar stuff on sale & these look like they might last a bit longer while producing the same pretty effect.

      http://www.jcrew.com/AST/Browse/WomenBrowse/Women_Shop_By_Category/sweaters/cotton/PRDOVR~24596/99101961153/ENE~1+2+3+22+4294967294+20~~~20+17+4294967137~90~~~~~~~/24596.jsp

      http://www.jcrew.com/AST/Browse/WomenBrowse/Women_Shop_By_Category/sweaters/cotton/PRDOVR~26603/99102011123/ENE~1+2+3+22+4294967294+20~~~20+17+4294967137~90~~~~~~~/26603.jsp

      1. I think if you are moderate to large busted, you just have to stay away from ruffles down the front. I do have a beautiful linen blouse I bought in Brazil that has soft ruffles, but it works because they are more concentrated up top around the v-neck part.

         1. Agree — ruffles make whatever body part they’re on look bigger… so consider that before purchase!

      2. I like those sale ones!!! I might buy the second one…the first one is just too sheer.

8. Thread Hijack:
   over at AlreadyPretty.com they have a guest post on what to wear for the large-of-bust types. She pointed out 3 online stores that specialize in garments sized for those of us who are well-endowed.

   Anyone have experience ordering from: Bravissimo, AJ Rumina, or Carissa Rose ?

   Looked like some good options for the hard-to-fit…

   1. I recently discovered alreadypretty through Corporette. Great site.

      Speaking of the big busted, did you guys see that Debrahlee Lorenzana, the woman allegedly fired for being too hot to work at Citibank, did a commercial a few years ago about how she loved plastic surgery, wanted to be the next Pamela Anderson, and in her words, wanted to be t*its on a stick? Turns out that she has two breast augmentations and was arguing with her doctor about how she wanted to go from a double D to even bigger. Yuck. Not saying that’s an excuse for the way she was treated, but she comes across as so vapid/materialistic in that video.

   2. I can’t vouch personally, but I have a coworker friend who swears by Bravissimo. She literally raves about it constantly (if quietly and discretely)! I’ve browsed online, but have yet to make a purchase myself.

   3. Bravissimo’s great- the different fits they offer are really helpful, I just wish they did more button-downs. They have blah ones in black and white, but nothing really nice. Strange, you’d think that a shop like that would be all over button-downs (the big-racked gal’s worst enemy), but the offerings are slim.

      The Max Sports Shock Absorber bra they sell is awesome, too, if anyone’s on the lookout for a good sports bra (I’m a 36F).

      1. I love Bravissimo, order from them all the time, and things are always quick to arrive.

         1. Bravissimo’s bras and swim are fantastic, but the clothing is poor quality, construction and fit. Which bums me out since their catalogs are so pretty.

   4. I’ve tried Carissa Rose (I actually discovered them when they advertised on Corprette). And, I’ve had quite a bit of luck. There are certainly larger busted ladies than me, but I’m a 34 DD, so I’m large enough that I’ve had a ton of trouble finding button down shirts in the past and these fit well without the gap!

   5. Bravissimo is brilliant for lingerie if you’re large busted (their summer collection is out now)- I am not a fan of the clothes though (due to poor fabric quality).

      They have free exchanges but you pay 7.50 pounds to ship anywhere outside the UK. But totally worth it!

9. snooze on this sweater . . .

10. Hijack Alert!!!

    I need advice! Warning long post.

    I am a board member of a local condo assoc for townhomes. We jsut finished adopting our rules and regs. One of the rules and regs among others is that the garbage cans should be picked up curbside and put in garage before the morning of the day following pick up day. We live in a townhome which has a small two car garage. We barely fit in two industrial size garbage cans inside and HAVE to take each car out to put in both cans. so long story short, one of our cans remained outside because we did not take one car out to put it in. One of the other BOard members did a drive around and noted all homeowners whose cans were still curbside and sent them warning letters. I was one to recieve such letter. We then emailed back and forth (not exactly amicably) about the situations. By claim being, we should not be so anal about enforcing the rule as long as homeowners have picked up cans from curb and deposited it by their garage door. I suggested that we should give them some leeway or atleast additonal day to put them in. The president refused and said that we need to be strict about enforcing rules. So I said that there are plenty of rule violations that we ignore like patio extensions, playsets sitting outside and particularly unpicked dog waste many days worth. I also attached a list of such offenders. One of the offenders was another Board member and she was very upsest that I included her in the list (she has a big dog that generates a lot of waste). She claims that we decided not to enforce the waste pick up rule strictly so why was I bringing it up? She then went on to tell me how I should not be lazy and take the other car out as so many other people manage to do it.
    As you can imagine, that really riled me up more back and forth ensued. The townhome assoc has a managment firm and the lady from the firm is also usually included in all our emails. She then sent out a not saying that beyond just our own rules, Village ordinance requires that a) garbage cans be put inside ( not true, they should not be seen from the street) and b) all daog waste needs to be picked up immediately.
    So we all agreed to follow the rules on both issues.
    So I asked the management lady to ensure that warning letters are duly sent to all offenders of failure to pick up dog waste. The Board then emails me back saying that he has instructed the management lady to hold off on sending those letters as I had not gone through the entire area to note all offenders and we could not send warning to only some of the offenders.
    I wrote back asking me to show such rule where we either send warnings to all offenders or none at all. (there is no such rule as any homeowner can complain to us about any violations and we have to issue warning letters). The President conveniently ignored my question and I decided to let it go too.
    Two days later I emailed the management lady asking clarification on another issue and also asked her if indeed there is such a rule or a general guidance for Board that they have to check each an every violation before sending out warnings to some.
    The lady ignored my emails completely. She replied to emails of other Board members. So I sent her an email saying that I was surprised that she did not get back to me. She then simply sent back a very terse reply – ignoring my questions in the previous email and just saying that she has sent warning letters to all the homeowners on my list.
    I found her attitute to be completley condescending and arrogant and undisguised attempt to ignore me.

    I need some advice as to how to handle the situation. We are a Board of 5 members. The President and his neighbor the dog lady are very tight and back up each other. I do not have a read on the third member yet. The fourth member is new. The first three have already chased out two previous board members. Me and the 5th member are replacements.

    Sorry for the story, but I felt I needed to share the background info.

    1. Ok, I just recieved another email the management lady had sent me answering my questions. Apparently that email did not get to me at all. So that takes care of the management, but I still need advice on how to handle the board president and his neighbor. I plan on not being driven out like others.

       1. I live in a townhouse community as well… an applaud anyone willing to try to lead an association. That said, I would use the management lady as your resource — be nice. Always.

          I think you’re going to have to suck it up on the garbage cans — up by your garage is still visible from the street… and everyone should have to abide by the town laws. When it’s time for re-election next year, make sure you go around to your community, send out fliers, and raise awareness of the issues in your association and your plans to fix them.

    2. THIS is why I have advised every realtor I have ever worked with to not even show me homes where there is an association of any type……

       1. I lived for a couple of years out of state in a home with a Homeowners’ Association, and I now have the same feelings. I was pregnant, working at home and at the time had too much time on my hands. The Association sent us a nasty letter about a ridiculous issue. They got a 5-page letter from me in response analyzing the Rules and Regs and destroying their argument. We got an apology from the President, and no more problems. My husband’s comment: don’t mess with a pregnant litigator with free time.

       2. diva: yup. No condos for me, ever ever ever. Far too much aggro.

    3. Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t quite understand how the other board members have behaved unreasonably. Can’t you just do a full survey to determine all violators of the dog waste rule? If the idea is that everyone should be treated equally… then doesn’t making sure all violators of the same rule are cited actually work toward achieving that end?

       I’m sorry if I’m not understanding something, but the way you’ve told this story it just sounds like you’re annoyed that you got in trouble for violating a rule. Now, the rule might be unreasonable, but did you not have the opportunity to say so when you adopted that rule? It sounds like other board members might be getting “special treatment” — and you want that too.

       Not trying to be rude here, but maybe it’s time for a reality check.

       1. Full survey is a goal that does not pan out in reality. All homeowners are allowed to inform the management company of any noticed violation and the management then acts on it. The homeowners are not required to check all similar violations in a large subdivision before notifying the management company. I think same goes for the Board members who either in their capacity as a Board member of homeowner can notify of just one violation.
          I got annoyed not becuase I got in trouble for violating a rule but because of unresaonable enforcement. I dragged the cans back some distance from the curb so it could have been easy for me to put it inside as I go if it was possible. The cans are not visible While discussing the framing of rules, we had decided not to be so anal about enforcing the rules. the problem is that the BOard wants to enforce some rules but not others. Apparently the garbage cans is a pet issue for the President. The dog lady wants leniency w/respect to dog waste AND unauthorized extension of patio among others while preaching to me about my garbage can. The President goes along with her. So yes, it does irritate me.

    4. Honestly, my first thought is this: stick to one issue. You disagree with the HOA’s rules on when garbage cans must be brought in, right? Are you pushing for a rule change, do you plan to comply with this in the future and this was a one-time offense, or is complying going to be a major hindrance for you on an on-going basis? This is your issue.

       Honestly, their enforcement or not of other rules, including dog waste, is not related to the above. The dog lady failing to clean up after her dog does not impact your not bringing in your trash can. I get your frustration with the unequal enforcement, but I’m afraid that you may be coming across as vengeful or spiteful by going after the dog lady just because you got a violation letter.

       You’re going to be on the board, working with these people. If you want to fight the trash can issue, I would do it in a professional and calm manner. Next meeting, tell the president you want to raise the issue. State your case — this rule exists, it’s a problem because of X, I propose Y solution. Maybe talk to other people who got the violation notices and see how they feel. Again, was it a one-time thing or an on-going problem? If there’s a vote and you lose, then that’s it. It sucks but you cannot let these things become personal. Otherwise, working on other issues going forward becomes impossible.

       1. Thanks for the suggestions. It could potentially be an ongoing problem as the fact of the matter is that we have to take both our cars out to put both cans in. We usually go to work in just one car and get to put one can in. It is a minor hassle to take other car out just to put the other can in. So sometimes we get lazy and the can stays out one more day till we take the other car out. The can is empty and never used for garbage.

          Maybe I should stick to one issue at a time and get that resolved.

          1. If you take out one car, how could you not fit two cans in its place?

             1. I’m confused on this as well – unless you have two Smart cars and the biggest home trash cans imaginable…

             2. Good point and I wondered the same thing. Additionally, if the can is never used for garbage, why bother taking it out at all?

          2. OK. This is a minor hassle to you and it’s a rule of your HOA. I get that it’s a pain. But just do it.

             Also, do you really need to haul both garbage cans out each week? I have a family of 5 (2 adults, 3 kids) plus pets and we fill our large industrial trash can maybe half-full each week. If they are so hard to put back in, then try to use only one each week.

    5. Honestly, I think they are being tools, but I don’t think you are blameless. You are on the board, you know the rules, and you didn’t follow them. Period. You need to follow all the rules if you expect other homeowners to follow any. If you aren’t prepared to do that, you shouldn’t be on the board. And throwing other board members under the bus is a little bush league. I’m not trying to offend you because I get why the situation would be annoying, rightfully so, but I think that your behavior is equally bad. Plus, for boards I’ve been on, I’ve had to agree that I would not disparage board members, that I would adhere to what the board as a body decided, and that I would not discuss board business outside board meetings. Is that not the case for your rules and regs?

       1. What RR said.

          1. Agree, too.

             Honestly, I think you need to look at your own role in this. Whether is is an annoyance or not, it is the rule and you admit you sometimes choose to ignore it. That’s fine. Just understand that if you ignore a rule, you always run a risk of someone calling you on it and having to face the consequence. That’s just how it goes.

             I feel bad that you’ve spent so much time and energy calling and emailing to retailiate at your other neighbors. That doesn’t pave the way for good relations in the future. Now something trivial like not taking the trash in has morphed into something that has potential for making your whole living situation awkward. You’re going to have to see these people you tattled on anytime you come and go (sadly, word gets around).

             Honestly, going forward I would try to stay focused on my own issues and think about what will serve you best in the long run in terms of living amongst these neighbors. I hate to say it, but the answer may be to leave the board to these busy-bodies, and just start following minutes and attending any meetings on issues that matter most to you.

             (Just a side note, but IMHO your justification that the cans are near the house doesn’t fly–that still doesn’t prevent the cans from being an eyesore and potentially attracting animals and bugs with their residue–which I would assume is the intent of the rule.

             If I were a neighbor this bothered, however, I would have asked you nicely–and directly–if you minded taking them in, before going to the board. Just as I’m sure you would to me, if I were one of the offending dog owners… .)

       2. I suggest that you remember the old saying – “you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.” You received an angry and immature response to your angry and immature complaint. If you had contacted the board member in a more friendly and apologetic manner, you likely would have gotten a more favorable response. I don’t believe that your request to wait another day is unreasonable, but the manner you conveyed it was immature, especially when you pulled the 1st grade argument of “that’s not fair, you let her do it!”

       3. I really think you set the whole tone by tattling on specific people with the dog waste issue. You could have made the argument without naming specifics, and the rule that a full survey must be done makes perfect sense, they can’t only enforce who you say needs to be enforced.

    6. I am the president of my condo assn (40 units in 4 buildings) and we also have a management company. Any notices go out from the management company not a Board member. The Board determines if notices should go out and then the management company sends. I do not think it is appropriate for individual board members to make those decisions. It is too easy to pick on people. Since you are paying for professional management, I would use to them to keep the Board in line. My experience is that Board elections do not get the best turn out, any change of removing the the two Board members at the next election via a grass roots movement? My theory on condo boards is that if I need to live by rules/regulations, I want a say in making them.

       1. My parents live in a community with an HOA. I CANNOT go home for the holidays or otherwise without hearing about all of the drama in “Del Boca Vista.” The board has refused to hold elections for years, some homeowners won’t pay dues and liens have been put on their property, the pool was drained for TWO years. It’s a nightmare.

          What I am trying to say, is homeowner’s associations bring out the petty best in people and you should do your utmost to be classy. But know that where there’s an HOA, there will be a busybody with way too much time on his/her hands that will be the violations king. And you MUST obey the rules. That’s what the HOA is for. If make exceptions for one thing…it’s a super-slippery slope.

          1. We represented an HOA, and we sued people for dues. We also litigated regarding boat parking, running a business out of a home, and almost filed a TRO regarding a yard sale. Yes, they are stupid rules, but you agree to them when you move into the area…

             1. restraining order for a yard sale? omg. I’m laughing.

             2. So were we! But hey, they agreed, and if you let one do it, you have a whole neighborhood of yard sales. And God knows where that would lead – poor people coming to buy things? *Shudder* (that’s sarcasm – I am not judging poor people – but I do think that’s some of the “no yard sale” reasoning).

    7. OMG. Just put your garbage cans away. It’s what, ONCE a week?

       I’m sure the association and property manager think you’re obnoxious. I do.

       1. You have made a mountain out of a molehill. I understand that other rules are also broken but that doesn’t give you the freedom to break the rules. For goodness sake, how difficult is it to remove your garbage can?? You’ve burned a lot of bridges with the way that you have behaved, and unfortunately you have to live and interact with your neighbors going forward. I would just take the high road, apologize to the board for breaking the rules and causing a commotion, and make sure you put your garbage can away every week.

          1. This.

          2. Concurred.

       2. I am glad someone finally said this. If the industrial trash cans are the ones mandated by the city/county, then presumably everyone else in the neighborhood has the same issues getting them in and out. If they can manage it, so you can you. If they aren’t mandated, why not get smaller cans that are much easier to maneuver in and out of the garage?

          1. I have to say I am surprised at some reactions.
             Just goes to show that people tend to not read through what is written and understand it before some emotional reaction takes hold coloring any further comprehension.

             Yes, the garbage cans are huge and can barely fit in two coners of a garage. WE have to use the cans as they are mandated, so we take the bag from our regular trash can, put it in the large can curbside.

             I also did not try to throw another board member under the bus. We have a huge townhome subdivision and unfotunately neighbors around me never pick up after their dogs. Maybe once every two weeks. So we had decided to go around and note the offending homeowners and send them violation notices. The other BOard member just happened to be one of the offenders.
             AS mentioned in my first post, we had decided to cut all homeowners some slack on certain issues – these two are some of them. But the President is anal about picking up garbage cans. And yes, since they are not viewed from the street, we are not in violation.

             We too go to court for failure to pay dues etc. Those are the issues that a HOA is for, not to go on a power trip.

             1. We too were surprised at your reaction. When you are making an argument, you need to stick to the point. Bringing up dog poo in a conversation about trash cans IS throwing your neighbor under the bus. You come across as a hot head – time for a cold shower.

             2. Just because people disagree with you does not mean that they did not read and understand “before some emotional reaction takes hold coloring any further comprehension.”

                Are you sure that you’re not having an emotional reaction to the criticism here? You asked for opinions.

             3. You sound unbalanced about this whole thing – and I think I’ve fully comprehended your posts. You have not been wronged in this situation. Change your behavior, and then maybe you can ask for your neighbors to change theirs (with respect to picking up after their dogs). Or don’t change yours, and don’t expect your fellow board members to change theirs – but then don’t expect anyone in the HOA to take any of the rules seriously.

             4. What you’ve described is exactly what I consider to be a “power trip”- one board member cites you for a trash violation, so you go around citing other uninvolved neighbors for dog poo violations? How is that getting your point across in a reasonable, methodical fashion?

             5. I agree with my over reaction part and that is why I asked for opinions on how to handle the situation going forward, not opinions on my behavior.

                Some of the reactions including questions on some facts that I had explained previously, hence the conclusion of emotion coloring understanding.

                Thanks for your feedback everyone!

             6. In Anon Board Member’s defense, sometimes you just need to vent (as she did here). It’s hard to take the high road sometimes, and email wars can get heated in a way that face-to-face contact doesn’t. Sounds like everyone needs to take a step back and remember that rules are just words — sometimes you have to swallow back the easy response for the sake of harmony.

             7. If your question is how to move forward, step 1 should be an apology. To the other Board members, to your neighbors, and to the management company. (And maybe the other commenters on this blog who tried to give you advice that you asked for.)

                Step 2 is a sincere effort to work as part of a team. I’m on my own condo association, and it’s not fun. I’m sure it’s not fun for your president or the other board members either. As part of your sincere effort, you should put your trash cans away.

                You have an opportunity to lead by example here.

             8. wow, Lola, are you for real? Why shoudl Anon Board member apologize to the commentors. Granted she is being over dramatic about the issue, you are just being MEAN. Wow, you must be real fun!
                Anon Board, take a breath and put the garbage cans inside.

             9. An apology for asking for advice and then becoming increasingly defensive and accusing the advice-givers of not reading her post clearly or responding emotionally when the advice given wasn’t what she wanted to hear? Her approach (to her HOA and here) is just a bit childish.

             10. I understood your post. I thought your behavior was out of line. I firmly believe that if you take a position enforcing the rules, you need to follow them. End of story. You are not physically incapable of putting your garbage cans in the garage, so put them in the garage. I also thought you were posting for advice – not just people to tell you that you were right. Given that you obviously aren’t open to advice, I’m sorry I wasted my time.

             11. Does the HOA think a car sitting in the driveway looks any better than a garbage can sitting in the driveway? I don’t.

11. Sorry for the repeat post…

    Hijack – The Summer Associates started this week and the women are not dressing appropriately. They wear tshirts (embellished in some way, so I guess a step up from plain?), short skirts (more than 3″ above the knee) paired with, of all things, LEGGINGS, black express-type pants, and ballet flats. I haven’t seen a single business casual piece of clothing yet beyond their cardigans. No blazers, suiting pieces (worn separately or together), button-front shirts or blouses, simple heels, or any of the other things that loyal Corporette readers know are always safe bets. They are so casually dressed that they could be ten years younger than they are.

    In contrast, their male counterparts wear slacks, belts, and button up shirts in various blue patterns. And look exactly the same as the male associates. Being a man is easy.

    We are a business casual biglaw office, and these women don’t appear to have a clue at ALL. I don’t know what to do. Should I say something to them? Leave it be and let them to sink or swim on their own, as the whole point is that it’s a summer-long interview? I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, or frankly cause myself any trouble, but this is totally inappropriate.

    1. If you work with particular summer associates you think have promise, say something — nicely. I know it’s hard to buy a whole new work wardrobe, believe me, but you’ll get farther if … you’ll be doing them a favor. That said, I shudder to think about the length of some of the skirts I wore to law firms when I was a law student — and I turned out okay.

    2. Casually recommend Corporette as a great fashion blog?

    3. I’d probably bring it up with the recruiting coordinator, if you have one. He/she could send the summers the dress code, maybe updated with some specifics for them.

    4. I remember when I was a summer associate, the first few weeks on the job were difficult because we didn’t get paid until the end of the second week, and my student loan money had run out before I started. If you’re going to mention the clothes, wait until the summers have gotten paid, and maybe casually mention a sale or print off a coupon to a good store that sells work-appropriate attire.

       1. Very good point. Often, students are working with their student wardrobes (jeans and other classroom attire) and one interview suit.

          Those first few weeks can be a little tight on the income. I’d wait and see if their wardrobes improve after the first paycheck, if you’re feeling a little uncomfortable.

          1. Being broke is no excuse for dressing inapproriately as a law firm summer associate, imho. EVERYONE IS BROKE. I went to the Gilroy outlet malls with my BFF and we racked up, spending less than $300 for several suits. Yes, maybe we put in on a charge card, and paid it off with our first paycheck, but it was just as necessary as books and tuition. Even when I was working as an intern in college, I’d go to Dress Barn or whatever and get something decent. My mom ( a factory worker!) always helped me with my clothes as I moved through my career. God bless her. . .

             I’d take those women to lunch or coffee (expense it!) and say, look, step up your game. Pull up your big girl britches and get some work clothes. >;-/

    5. We have a summer who is ample bosomed and wearing lots of sleeveless and somewhat low cut knit tops. It does not look good. It’s not so blatantly unprofessional that I feel that she needs a speaking to, but it’s one of those borderline cases.

    6. As I posted on the earlier post. I’d give them some private guidance once. Articulate what is, and what is not business casual, and then leave it alone. What they choose to do with your advice is out of your hands. If you get HR, corrdinators involved, it may get bigger than necessary. If its already big, not much you can do about that, but your advice would still be helpful…for the next job…

       1. I agree with this. As a nervous summer associate trying to figure out the ropes, I would so much rather have gotten taken aside by a single attorney (even one I wasn’t reporting to directly) than to think people had complained about me to HR, it’s now in some file or record that’s going to be stowed away forever, my career is ruined, etc. And I would be able to lie to myself and pretend that probably this single attorney is the only one who noticed, rather than imagining all the attorneys in the office sitting at some Judge the Summers meeting and laughing at my inappropriate fashion choices. :)

    7. It has nothing to do with money – they all interviewed and have suits. Have recruiting send out a ‘casual reminder’ email – Weil, Gotshal & Manges did a few weeks ago (http://abovethelaw.com/2010/05/what-you-can-wear-at-weil/).

       If you know any of the summers in a more friendly capacity, mention it to them or see if they want to hit up Bloomingdale’s one weekend – they’ll be happy to shop with their new salaries (I say this as a recent biglaw summer associate). Everyone is nervous about jobs now, they really would appreciate the advice. And as much as I would love to wear leggings to my very business casual office, I never would.

       1. Wow. I wish all employers sent out a list like this! Agree or disagree (no t-shirts under suits?), at least it’s clear and you know what you can/can’t do.
          But you can never cover everything!
          I have a coworker who wear knee highs in lieu of tights sometimes, and I think when she checks the mirror in the morning she’s ok, but moving, sitting, etc. she looks ridiculous!!!!!! When she does this in black, it’s quite frankly disturbing. But I certainly am not close enough to say something, so oh well. Maybe HR can add that to the list of “don’ts” . . .

    8. I honestly cannot believe that girls are wearing leggings and short skirts around the office – you’d think in an economy like this, they wouldn’t be taking any chances. What market are you in?

       Disagree on the wait-til-they-get-paid issue. They have credit cards. And they own at least once suit because they interviewed in it. Many of them probably have parents in corporate America. They know how to dress appropriately, they just don’t want to.

       Are embellished t-shirts and ballet flats not acceptable? I wear such tshirts (from banana – the one with the satiny neckline) with my skirts and ballet flats sometimes. Is that a no-no? The Weil Gotshal memo says you can wear flats…

       1. I think nice t-shirts like those are fine. I took the Weil memo to be referring to casual t-shirts, like a big white Cubs shirt or a man’s undershirt, or something along those lines.

       2. Do you know what I think it is, honestly, there were so few firm jobs that only a few people got them. A lot of the people I know from my law school that got them are the most obnoxious of the class. (And yes, I am extremely jealous, but I still stand by that) They are the ones that eat in the library, when there is a no food sign at every desk. WHO DO YOU THINK THAT SIGN IS FOR??!! of course you are hungry I am hungry too, the rule doesn’t only apply if youre not hungry! I wouldn’t be surprised to find out these people are breaking the dress code because rules apply to people who have to try harder.

          That said, I do have a few friends who have a SA who I know will dress well, work hard and be delightful.

          1. Maybe the jobs just went to the socially inept people who have always been so focused on their studies that they never picked up the nuances of fashion.

             1. If they never picked up on nuances b/c they were too focused on studying they’d probably be wearing frumpy clothes not leggings & mini skirts. Still a problem, but different in nature.

       3. I wouldn’t wear even a nice t-shirt to my biz casual lawyer office unless under a nice cardigan or jacket.

       4. Assuming everyone has parents in Corporate America is a definite no-no. You don’t know how far some people have come…. Be an inform. mentor and give some advice…

    9. I am a summer, and PLEASE tell them. I do stress out a little bit about what to wear, and ended up going to a Theory sample sale last weekend to round out my wardrobe, but I would rather spend the money and not have someone worrying about my wardrobe than giving me credit for my work.

    10. I agree to tell them, but I don’t know about the mass memo. Yeah, it’s unconfrontational. However, every single mass memo I ever received on wardrobe issues I’ve read and promptly discarded, thinking, “Whatever, I dress fine.” Luckily the memos weren’t directed at me (I doubled checked with my bosses). But I can see someone who has never been specifically told otherwise thinking that her really nice capris and a cardigan were just like a pantsuit. A lot of girls think, “They cost the same, what’s the diff?” So I think a gentle pulling-aside would get the message across better. And if one starts dressing better, the rest will follow.

        This is also how people “get away” with wearing jeans, etc, to formal events – they say, “What, these are my nice jeans!” >:-o

        1. I believe you, but I cannot BELIEVE people think like this . . .

        2. So true. I have a relative who works in a legal department of a major company – she says women show up there wear strappy sandals and when she talks to them about it, they point out how they’re $400 (or whatever) sandals and therefore thought they were appropriate.

    11. This is a common issue for new hires and Gen Y’s who have always worn T-shirts and never been educated otherwise. If you look on a lot of the fashion blogs, the things that are being heralded as work appropriate (like short shorts) are often not appropriate for the workplace. Considering that’s the place a lot of these young women get their information, it makes sense.

        HR can always help with that sticky conversation, or you can bring in an image consultant to speak with the staff about appropriate work dress.

        http://conselle.com/

12. And another hijack: I’m a lawyer at an agency in DC, and am one of the intern coordinators. We have a great crop of interns this year, all 2Ls. But I’m starting to have an issue with one of them. She is refusing to participate in any social activities outside of work (happy hour, bar function in our narrow specialty on a work day evening, etc). She’s also not coming across as all that interested in the work we do, which is admittedly very technical — but she does have a background in it.

    I’m about to buy tickets to our next event. I sent out an email asking who will be able to attend, so I would know how many to buy. Everyone responded yes immediately … except this woman. No word from her and we were supposed to buy the tickets on Tuesday. At this rate, I think she’s just not getting one — I’m not wasting our very tiny budget on someone who cannot be bothered to even respond!! If she couldn’t go and gave a good reason (other plans, too late, who knows) — I’d be less peeved. But no response at all? After blowing off 2 other social events? Yikes. Do I say something?

    And on the disinterested — she was invited to a major meeting the other day, along with the other interns. After a period of time, she asked to leave with no explanation. This was a major meeting where our agency is setting policy, with key players from offices in the room. No one else had left yet. Again, do I say something?

    1. I’d talk to her. It’s possible she’s having a personal or medical problem.

       1. Ditto. Take her aside, say you were really impressed with her credentials and you are excited she is working with you, but you are getting the vibe that she is not engaged and you are wondering why. Obviously, don’t pry or make her talk about personal issues, but it will give her a chance to at least say “I am having personal issues” and leave it at that.

    2. It seems as now would be an appropriate time to have a sit down with her to clarify her goals, and gently probe whether there is something in her private life that is impairing her ability to play the game.

       Maybe she realizes she’s in the wrong job and doesn’t know what to do. Maybe she’s totally socially clueless and doesn’t realize that there is, what we refer to in medicine as the “informal curriculum:” all those rules that exist but are not spelled out. Maybe she’s a social nightmare, and you are lucky you know it now before you make her an offer. Maybe she’s got a loved one with a serious illness and she doesn’t know how to balance and she doesn’t know who to trust. Maybe she’s got a serious medical issue. You’re clearly a sensitive intuitive person and would handle each of these situations differently, but getting a better idea would help you define your approach.

       Now is the time though, before she’s totally ruined all her chances and there is no salvaging the situation .

    3. Honestly, I would not say anything. Everyone knows that these types of internships are like job interviews. I think there’s a difference between this type of situation and the one mentioned above (the summer associates dressing strangely), because business casual can mean different things, whereas showing interest in the people around you and the work they’re doing is pretty common sense in an internship situation.

       About the response to emails — This might be a generational thing? I was told many times at one of my previous internships that one thing they liked about me was that I always responded to emails (even just to say, “No, I can’t do that” or “I got those documents, thanks”). Apparently most of the other summer associates did not do that. The SA coordinator sent emails to us many, many times asking that we respond to everything. Apparently her pleas did not do any good, so I’m not sure that bringing this up will help. YMMV, though!

    4. As a 2L, she should know how to play by the rules. It sounds like she just doesn’t care. I would also not buy her a ticket to this next event. A deadline is a deadline. However, in the spirit of giving her one last chance, you should take her aside and politely let her know in a mentoring-fashion that participation in both work functions and social activities counts, and an attitude that suggests enthusiasm and good humor also go a long way. No more than a quick couple-minute conversation. If she doesn’t improve, have fun writing her evaluation.

       1. I agree with this recommendation, but would take it one step further and not even take her aside to give her a warning. Not only are 2L’s old enough to be expected to be professional, but law schools specifically coach 2L’s and tell them that they are expected to attend these types of social events. That she would left a meeting early without explanation is a little shocking. She is already aware of what expectations you would have, and in this economy, should be grateful that she even got an internship. Write her evaluation honestly.

    5. Declining social occasions is one thing. Ignoring invitations, being noticeably uninterested in the work she’s been hired to do, and leaving actual meetings… those need to be addressed.

       1. Agree.

       2. Yes — in private – and if possible address the issue – attending functions, not her (ex. “Participation in x, y, z” or “in this meeting …” ), not “You’re not a team player” which is not specific enough to be useful.

       3. If it was just the leaving meeting early, it could have been illness, but if it were me I would have followed up, apologized and gave a gloss over explanation of over heated or something. The whole thing is rather a bizarre situation, I think use your judgement on whether it could be a serious home/private problem, or just a huge attitude problem.

    6. I would definitely say something. Just gently take her aside and let her know that by her actions she is sending a message that she is not interested in the work or even the people. Sounds like she’s having some personal issues that are interfering with work, but just let her know that at least during work time she really should put much more of an effort. I’m not sure she needs to go to all the social events, but perhaps there’s a tactful way to explain how not even replying to the emails you send does not send a good message.

    7. This doesn’t apply to any of the strictly-work (during business hours) functions that she seems to be disinterested in, but wrt the social activities – it seems that they all involve alcohol (happy hours, evening functions, etc), which can be uncomfortable for people who grew up in alcoholic homes or dealing with a friend’s substance issues (or, for anyone recovering from a substance issue). She could also just be a complete flake/socially inept/rude. I don’t want you to read too much into her behavior, just another perspective.

       1. Also, some people don’t attend social drinking events for religious reasons, so that can be an issue as well.

       2. I thought this too (I pretty much hate drinking-focused events with coworkers), but then I took another look and I think “bar function” probably refers to a Bar Association function – not going out to a bar. Correct me if I’m mistaken, GovtLawyer!

          1. Exactly. The bar function was a dinner hosted by an organization in our bar ass’n with two prominent people speaking (am trying to stay away from too much detail, our practice area is TINY). Yes, there was a cocktail hour before the dinner and wine was served with the dinner … but it was a dinner, with some serious networking potential. I invited the interns, asked that people respond to me ASAP so I could RSVP on for them. It was a seated dinner with advance sign-up required. The others responded promptly. Nothing from her. I finally asked her about it around 1 pm the day of — she then said she couldn’t go.

             Happy hour — she told the person organizing it that she doesn’t see the point to going since she doesn’t drink. OK, maybe there is a religious reason, substance abuse issue or something there. I’ll cut her some slack on this. But it’s a happy hour with work colleagues, none of us are there to drink to excess.

             1. No excuse for not RSVP’ing promptly (even if to decline the invitation).

                Some recovering alcoholics have no problem attending a happy hour with colleagues, enjoying a soft drink/juice/sparkling water, and heading home w/o issues. Others would find it a serious challenge. Please don’t dismiss this as not a big deal because “none of us are there to drink to excess” – for people who can’t stop the compulsion once the first sip is down, being around people who are having “just one beer” can be incredibly difficult. Equally true for anyone who suffered emotionally or physically as a result of someone else’s drinking.

                I’ll get off my soapbox now. I guess I’m just trying to make sure people are aware of the fact that, for some people, being around alcohol is hard, for reasons they probably don’t want to share with (new) colleagues. Be sensitive.

                All this aside, I’ve seen many people handle getting out of work social engagements involving alcohol with grace and manners. Doesn’t sound like she is using either, which is the bigger issue.

             2. One thing on the happy hour is that coming from school, she may be used to people drinking to excess at those things. I’m remembering the shenanigans people used to get up to at firm receptions when I was at law school (though presumably those have cooled down with the economy). So she might not be used to people acting like grown-ups in a professional setting yet.

             3. I agree with the two responses above me if she was just not attending drink functions, but to not respond and the other behavior points to something different

       3. We have several Mormons at our firm, all of whom don’t drink alcohol. However, I always appreciate that one of them always makes it appoint to attend firm happy hours or other unofficial happy hours for birthdays and such. He just gets a soda and no one cares. The point is not about drinking, but about socializing with colleagues. I don’t drink at half of these functions anyway.

          1. Yuck — I meant to say “a point”, not appoint. :)

          2. I think this is a valid point.

             At the same time, however, please understand that someone who does not drink because of religious or other preference and someone who does not feel comfortable being in situations where alcohol is prevalent due to substance issues (their own or someone elses) will not necessarily have the same level of comfort at a happy hour.

          3. Anon raises a good point – for someone struggling with alcohol abuse, a bar is the last place they need to be.

             Also, please realize that those who don’t drink for religious reasons may not feel comfortable patronizing bars/similar establishments.

             None of this, of course, explains the other strange behavior on the part of the intern in question…

             1. I would also add that, as someone who really isn’t a big fan of alcohol (don’t like the feeling of being tipsy, don’t like the taste, etc.), I simply forgo it whenever I can. And have worked at firms where that was seen as a massive sign of disinterest, even though I went to every happy hour, every event, etc. and went out of my way to order soda and lime on the sly. (It was a wretched and odd little place, but still an unusual experience to be loudly berrated by my boss for not drinking beer at happy hour when I came in the next day.) That led to a lot of odd events, like people saying “damn” in front of me then making a big deal about apologizing (I say worse at a red light). Or asking about my religious preferences (never brought those into the office).

                Its about blending in – and often, people who don’t drink are pretty comfortable with that decision. People who do drink seem to be really threatened by it, however, in my experience.

             2. @Jen- I agree and have had similar experience with workplace happy hours/events. I am allergic to alcohol and am more than willing to go to happy hours and other social events involving alcohol if people behave responsibly, but many people are very rude/nosy about why I am not drinking. It can make me very uncomfortable because people seem so taken aback or disbelieving that I wouldn’t be able to drink.

    8. I would say something as well – if for no other reason than you’ve covered your bases when you DON’T make her an offer of employment. I would waste no more time on her other than to inform her that her her lack of enthusiasm and responsiveness is noted and that she is expected to play by the rules for the rest of her time with you or she can leave and free up a spot for someone who wants to be there.

    9. I would say something as well – I was a government intern in DC one summer, and there were so many events going on that I wasn’t always sure which ones were “important.” She might not realize that the informal happy hours with a few co-workers shouldn’t replace the more formal, planned events. She might also be overloaded with work and unsure how to balance work with events.

       1. Yes, please do say something to her. Internships are supposed to be, at least in part, learning experiences. If she doesn’t hear anything from you, and then doesn’t get an offer, she won’t have learned anything at all. If you say something to her, she might just take your advice and turn out to be the employee you were hoping you had hired.

       2. This. It makes far more sense.

          Its also possible that she comes from a background where she didn’t learn – through her parents’ example or friends – how to play the game. She might think that just showing up will do the trick. A quick conversation about how she’s not blending in will at least make you feel better and give you more grounds for not extending an offer. Information is power – so I’d try to give her the information she needs to know to get better, and get the information from her that would allow me to make a better decision re: her future with the agency.

    10. Another thought – reach out to her Career Services office, and see if they can get a read on her. She probably used their services to get this internship, and they might be able to talk to her in a way that is less intimidating than a supervisor confrontation. At the very least, they’ll know what she needs to work on for future employment opportunities.

13. Has anyone noticed that the quality of J.Crew merchendise has gone down? It used to be a staple for me for work basics but now everything there seems flimsy to me.

    1. Yes! I recently bought the stretch wool suit and while it fits me beautifully, the wool is itchy and not nice to the touch.

    2. Flimsy, yes. Seems to me that quality across all the price points has been declining these last few years. Fibres especially, but then I’m kind of a fibre snob, or fan, or freak. The designers don’t seem to bother with finding a nice blend, it’s straight to polyester, which makes me sweat and does not, in my experience, hold up over time and use. Starting to think we just need to suck it up and realise if we want a certain level of quality, it’s going to cost more than we – I – think is reasonable.

    3. Yes. I have a gorgeous navy lined pants suit that I bought at JCrew in 2004. The cut is fantastic and it still looks brand new. I’ve yet to find anything since that I’m as impressed with (and the suiting separates I’ve owned for two years are almost ready to be retired).

14. Circulate a memo with clearly delinated do’s and don’ts. Maybe give Corporette a shout-out on it. Then you don’t single anyone out, and it gives you a document to point to if future violations keep occuring.

    I feel a little bad for the summer associates … I mean, we all turn to this site for advise on what’s appropriate – and some of us have been in the office for years. I don’t know how they ended up thinking “leggings” are somehow appropriate, but nonetheless – it’s far from obvious for women.

    1. You know, I think back on some of the things I wore as a summer associate in abject horror: light blue polyster suit anyone? I really, really, really just didn’t know. I grew up without exposure to professional women, and I just had no idea. And no Corporette as this was 10+ years ago. If you do it in a gentle way, I think you are doing them a favor. And I think clueing them into Corporette is a great idea. I’ve come a long way in 10 years, but I still learn things here. This site has totally changed the way I shop for the better.

       1. Hee hee, I made some mistakes as well, but more when I was a management consultant right out of college. Lots of polyester knits, sleeveless shirts, really dowdy long skirts. YUCK! I cringe about it now. It wasn’t unprofessional though, just really unfashionable. :)

       2. Another baby blue polyester suit here (purchased in my first three months working). Yikes.

       3. Ooooh … I can beat that one. Back in college, I bought a suit, in green no less, from Victoria’s Secret. Wore it to an interview. I got a clue by law school, though.

          1. Did you get the job?

          2. Heck no.

       4. Hot pink, high-waisted skirt. White blouse with HUGE shoulder pads and gaudy gold buttons. Poodle perm.

          Yeah, it was 1985. Fortunately, my male engineering co-workers were clueless. They were still wearing their sturdy (i.e., indestructible) polyester shirts circa 1968 (shudder).

          Now when I think back on my internships/summer jobs in engineering…oy. Vintage puff-skirted swiss dot dress, bobby socks and white Keds? Gosh, it was cute and damn, it was inappropriate. Wish I’d had a female mentor to take me aside and gently tell me that I wasn’t helping women become more respected in technical fields…

          1. Wow, that’s awesome. As a newbie engineer myself (just had my 2 year anniversairy), the few women here do not play a mentoring role at all, unfortunately.

    2. I would just add that if you’re going to recommend this site to people instead of directly discussing their clothing issues, you might want to wait a week or two – otherwise, it’s very possible that they will read your comment about specific outfits they have worn, and think that you are passive-aggressively calling them out.

       1. Yes, I am concerned about that. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.

          1. I’m sure Corporette has some earlier posting on what to wear for a summer internship – maybe send a link to that, rather than to the main page?

15. I don’t like this cardigan, I’m tired of the ruffles look and that color would just wash me out. I just bought this cardigan in glaze and black and really, really like it:

    http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/3076074/0~2376776~2374327~6023161~6029119?mediumthumbnail=Y&origin=category&searchtype=&pbo=6029119&P=1#reviewAnchor

    I also purchased this cardigan but haven’t received it yet. Judging by the reviews, it’s pretty great. Anyone else buy this?

    http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/3066923?refsid=285538&refcat=0%7e2376776%7e2378685%7e2378691%7e2378724&SourceID=&SlotID=1&origin=related&cm_Sp=Related-Items-_-Product-_-Auto

    1. I like today’s pick but agree that the color choices are pretty meh. A lot of tje jcrew stuff is that way right now. I like both of the ones you posted, though – might get a couple like the ones that you bought

16. Re: The summers’ wardrobe choices

    Bring it up, but be forewarned, even the most tactful approach may irritate some people, even though they will thank you later!

    I WAS one of those summers once who needed a gentle nudge (granted, I never wore leggings, that just seems ridiculous, and the woman who brought it up was a bit cranky and annoying…ok, ok, I may be biased). =)

    The bottom line is the talking to (and it was subtle – after 3 or 4 days, she finally got around to “mentoring me” and brought up dress code in the office) was invaluable in teaching me how to dress like a professional without being in a traditional suit daily.

    1. This may be too gentle of a nudge, but perhaps you could mention to them that, although they’re summer associates, they may have the opportunity to tag along to a client meeting or to court and wouldn’t want to miss that chance because they’re not *quite* dressed up enough that day. If you throw in an anecdote about a time that you were unprepared and wished you were wearing a blazer, a professional skirt, etc., this might help to clue them in. (That being said, I agree with the above suggestions about the recruitment staff filling them in, too–most people feel much more comfortable asking questions to and getting tips from the recruiters.)

       1. I think this is a great suggestion!

       2. Great idea! This is how most of the places I have worked have handled the issue. Always dress up, just in case someone invites you somewhere at the last minute.

       3. Agreed, this is a fantastic suggestion.

17. I love the sweater and woould wear it to the office. But…I would generally prefer not to buy a sweater with wool content unless it is cashmere. I love cotton, rayon, ramie, linen, silk….

18. Has anyone else noticed how disheveled the model’s hair is in this product photo?

19. Of the panoply of website I’ve pored over this has the most vetaricy.

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