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5/24/24 Update: The Nordstrom Half-Yearly Sale has started — see our big sale roundup! Also, sign up for our newsletter to stay on top of all the great sales!
The below content is about the 2011 Nordstrom Half-Yearly Sale.
Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Why are there not more things that are this lovely emerald color of green? I love the flowy simplicity of this dress, but most of all I love the color! Personally, I would swap that “skinny tie belt” for a skinny leather one or even perhaps a thicker, more elaborate belt for the office.
It was $328, but is marked to $163.90 as part of Nordstrom's Half-Yearly Sale (see my other top picks from the sale here). Elie Tahari ‘Lauren' Long Sleeve Dress
Seen a great piece you'd like to recommend? Please e-mail editor@corporette.com with “TPS” in the subject line.
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Genny
I love this dress! Someone else posted a link to it a while back in the comments, I think. I would absolutely buy this and wear it to work. I believe there was some concern about the big ruffle in the front and not looking good for women with larger chests. However, for those of us who are less well-endowed, the big ruffle could actually help in that area IMO. Great choice, Kat!
Bianca
Thanks, Kat! Love this!
Ann
Yes. I have a large bust, so these collars tend to look like clown collars on me. But it would look lovely on other women.
Always a NYer
Pretty color but not my style.
Anyway, for those of you who watch Gossip Girl, what did you think of last night’s episode?! Blair is getting on my last nerves and really needs to snap out of fantasyland and realize that the prince is not the man she should be marrying. That man is Chuck Bass. And Chuck, he really is maturing and I love that. But it’s so sad that he still can’t see he’s capable of making Blair happy. And those sad smiles he’s been making, heartbreaking yet sexy at the same time.
Side question, who do you really think is the father of Blair’s baby? I refuse to believe it could be Louis but that’s just me not wanting to give up hope for Chair getting back together and for the prince to finally leave. He’s so annoying and childish!
Now that I’ve totally channelled my inner tween, what did you think? Do you think Chair has any hopes of reconcilling in the future? I really hope so <3 I keep watching the limo and piano scenes to remind me of their happier times, btw.
Always a NYer
*channeled and *reconciling
Ellen
All those women look ALIKE. Svelte, blond bone-thin and rich. they need more peeple like us—educated and cute, but not model thin.
The manageing partner also watches gossip girl. Can you believe it? He thinks he is like Chace Crawford, but the manageing partner is fat and bald! I laugh when he says we should go for a drink. FOOEY! He is MARRIED!
La Suisse
This is, surprisingly enough, a good point.
Jas
It is a disconcerting to find myself agreeing with Ellen, but I do sometimes have trouble trying to tell starlets apart.
Hel-lo
Except that Blair, the main character, and the subject of this conversation, is a petite brunette.
Bunkster
I didn’t really like this episode, aside from the Blair/Chuck interaction.
It was just too contrived. And Elizabeth Hurley is a terrible actress. Also, will Serena ever get her comeuppance? She gets fired from the film job, but immediately hired by the tabloid. Things just fall into her lap. She never has to work for anything.
And the Humphries are just boring. I did really like the dresses Blair and Charlie/Ivy wore, though. And Dorota is awesome.
Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler
Same, it seems like the writers are reaching when their story lines don’t involve Chuck and Blair.
I’m tired of Nate’s “Mrs. Robinson” story lines (has that boy ever had a normal relationship with someone his own age?).
The Charlie/Ivy line is amusing, but Elizabeth Hurley (not just her character) is messing everything up.
And I would watch a whole show with just Dorota’s interactions with everyone.
SeaElle
Loved last nights episode. I keep thinking they’re going to have Blair lose the baby. I know its awful, and it’s not what I’m hoping for, but I feel like they can’t actually be planning on her having a kid. It just doesn’t fit.
I hate Nate’s story line (as usual) but I’m actually a little intrigued by what happened at the very end.
For those who missed the comment I made at the end of the weekend, Chuck Bass is in the new movie J. Edgar. It’s not a huge roll but he is in there. It’s pretty impossible to not see him on the screen as FBI agent Chuck Bass though lol
Ballerina Girl
I love how tv can’t ever contemplate a girl having an abortion anymore–even though one in three women will have one in their lifetimes. They all just magically happen to miscarry instead.
SeaElle
Yang had one on Grey’s last? season. I would have expected Blair to do the same.
I also would have expected a royal family to expect that as opposed to the happy reaction that an out of wedlock baby received (which could happen in a normal family but I sincerely doubt a royal one). Then again, GG isn’t known for its focus in reality :)
Batgirl
Good call, I forgot about that. I was thinking about Knocked Up and how they don’t even seriously discuss it as an option.
Kanye East
Then again, GG isn’t known for its focus in reality :)
Case in point: Louis’s accent.
(:
Kanye East
ETA: Becky’s abortion Friday Night Lights.
TAMI TAYLOR 4 LYFE!
Lyssa
I think that’s facinating, too, but probably not for the same reasons that you’d think. (I don’t know if anyone watched the show Nip/Tuck, on FX – it was a facinating, horrific, trashy, fabulous show with characters who were just all around awful people, but even they couldn’t do more than dance around the word when it came up, which I found really interesting.) With scientific advancements, we’ve had a long shift to where people are really coming around to what abortion actually does, and it’s harder to deny that it’s a pretty horrific thing. I can see why writers would not want even a distasteful character to kill a child, no matter how many people have done it in real life.
(I’m awfully skeptical about the 1/3 stat, but a brief internet search couldn’t confirm or refute it. From previous readings, though, I don’t think that it accounts for repeat users, which make up a large proportion of the numbers (meaning that the average might be 1 abortion for every three women, but that doesn’t mean that 1/3 of women have had abortions.))
(I know this discussion isn’t pleasant. Sorry.)
anon
I agree, and it seems that younger women are less likely to have an abortion these days. The new generation doesn’t look at it as simply another means of birth control.
Batgirl
Well, here’s one cite for that: www (dot) guttmacher (dot) org (slash) pubs/fb_induced_abortion (dot) html. One in three women by the age of 45 will have had an abortion.
I don’t want to drag this blog into an abortion debate, but I don’t think abortion is any more horrific than (1) illegal abortion and the risks involved with that, (2) women being forced to carry children to term that they do not want or cannot support, or (3) the government making that decision for them.
That is all. We can agree to disagree–that’s what having access to legal abortion lets each one of us do.
AnonInfinity
*deep breath*
I know that there are women of all political views here. One of the things I love about Corporette is that we haven’t generally gone down rabbit holes of “liberal vs. conservative,” “pro-choice v. pro-life,” “affirmative action vs. not,” etc.
Maybe I’m fanning the flames a little, but I think it’s in bad taste to enter into a discussion on a politically neutral site and use political rhetoric like “killing a child” and “horrific” when you know very well that such statements are major points of debate around this issue.
found a peanut
There was actually a NPR/Fresh Air interview about birth control/abortion last week with Jill Lepore, who also wrote an article in this week’s New Yorker on the issue. The interview (haven’t read the article yet) was very interesting and informative without being at all political . One of the funnier parts was during the discussion about illegal abortion at the turn of the 20th century. Terry Gross asked whether abortion was dangerous; Jill Lepore responded, “You know what was dangerous? Childbirth was dangerous.”
You can download the interview here: http://www.npr.org/2011/11/09/142097521/how-birth-control-and-abortion-became-politicized
Lyssa
I don’t really want a debate here, either, but I did want to respond only because I don’t want anyone to feel like they can’t respond because their view won’t be popular. I would strongly disagree that it’s not OK to say something like “kill a child” but it is OK to say something along the lines of it’s a normal or common thing that people should just accept. Both are debatable issues, one is not more valid or acceptable then the other.
I’ll stop now. :)
b23
I want to be your friend, Lyssa. :)
Ballerina Girl
Yes, I don’t want to get into an abortion fight on this site either. That said, it bothers me that the mere mention of abortion is deemed controversial. I wish we could take it all down a few notches so it could be an issue that’s discussed reasonably and rationally without injecting inflammatory language or rhetoric into it.
AnonInfinity
That’s what I was trying to say, Ballerina Girl. The reality is that there are women who have abortions, and that’s how I took the original abortion comment, not as an endorsement or a comment on the “rightness” of the actual action. Using the political rhetoric on one side or the other takes the whole discussion into a different realm.
Ballerina Girl
@AnonInfinity–I know, thanks! I got that when I read your comment, I just didn’t articulate it well.
Amelia Bedelia
I dont’ know. I kind of respect people who will just call it like they see it. If you think abortion is killing a child, then say it is killing a child. We don’t have problems calling other actions what they are. I would compliment, rather than admonish, a woman who stood up for her beliefs rather than caved.
If you believe a fetus with a heartbeat is a baby, I don’t think it is “inflammatory” or “hateful” to state that.
Anastasia
Thanks, found a peanut, for posting that link to the NPR interview (which links to the article as well). Very interesting reads!
Anonymous
Now see, Batgirl, I am firmly in the pro-choice camp and yet, I find your comments to be more flammatory than Lyssa’s. An unwanted pregnancy is bad: being forced to carry a child to term, having an unwanted baby, and aborting the baby are all horrific. The fact that abortion is and should be legal doesn’t make it less horrific. Let’s not pretend otherwise, please!
Anonymous
The sad truth is that no matter what your views are on abortion, our society is simply not pro-life. There was just a story going around the web about a woman who was breastfeeding her sick baby while waiting in court on a traffic ticket and how she was admonished by the Court at the bailiff’s encouragement. My money is on the judge being “pro-life” but people still find it icky for a woman to feed her baby. Let’s give women the power to make all decisions, even those that are heartwrenching, like killing her unborn child.
Anonymous
Speak for yourself and yourself only. I’m not afraid of or ashamed of or repulsed by abortion, the word, the deed, or the need. It is a sometimes sad but certain blessing. As an adult woman having lived in my body my whole life, I can fathom and deal with the realities of bodily functions and needs, and life responsibilities and choices. I am not horrified by the science of abortion but grateful for it.
KS
What I’m wondering is: why aren’t any of these kids in college anymore? They never actually say that they’ve all dropped out, but in fact they all seem to have dropped out: Blair is focusing on her pregnancy and on Louis/Chuck (and living at home); Dan is on his book tour (and basically living at home); Serena is getting jobs with film promoters and bloggers (and living at home).
Bunkster
Yes. I keep coming back to that, too. Technically, Serena, Blair and Nate are supposed to be at Columbia. And Dan is supposed to be at NYU. But we haven’t seen any of them at college all season.
And, while we’re at it, there is absolutely no way Nate could have gotten into Columbia. Yet he’s supposed to have been there since the beginning. Blair transferred for sophomore year. And I don’t even know how Serena ended up at Columbia. Somehow, she’s in the same class as Blair, despite not having gone to college the year before.
Also, I miss seeing the campus on screen.
Kanye East
I try not to think about the show too much. It’s too easy to point out all the absurdities, and then feel humiliated when you realize you’ve been close-reading Gossip Girl.
BTW: Never would have thought Dan Humphrey would turn out to be such a spoiled brat. Only ten people came to your book signing? (That’s actually a great turnout for an author these days.) You were only on the NYT best seller list for a week? Poor bubaleh baby! Let me feed you some crybaby soup!
Please note how I just violated my own rule about not over-analyzing Gossip Girl.
Kanye East
Which also means Elizabeth Hurley’s character is obsessed with meddling in the lives of, what, a bunch of 19 year-olds?
I can’t believe I watch this show.
(:
Seattleite
Don’t feel too badly about it – I’ve just added GG, which I’ve never seen, to my Hulu list solely because of the threadjacks here.
Or, feel very badly, since you’re apparently contributing to my incipient couch-potatohood.
Your choice. :)
zora
Kanye: I think I love you ;o)
Kanye East
Seattleite: there has to be some transitive property under which we can shift the blame. I don’t know if you’ve ever been a Gawker reader (I used to be), but Richard Lawson used to write absolutely genius recaps of Gossip Girl. That’s what got me started watching, ashamed as I am to admit it.
zora: shy, blushing fist-bump. (:
Hel-lo
This is normal for this show. They were barely ever at the high school when they were in high school.
They were always at the Met or Central Park or cafes or something. Or even, god forbid, Drinking Alcohol!
KK
I gave up Gossip Girl when I discovered the delightfully entertaining Vampire Diaries. I guess I only have space in my heart for one teen drama at a time? Seems like little has changed since season 3 though (but why oh why did they have to resort to a mystery pregnancy? Leighton deserves better than that!)
MelD
This dress seems a little bit too holiday for me for everyday wear.
In other rants, I decided to smell my Birchbox perfume yesterday. It got all over my hands and the smell didn’t come off even after multiple handwashings and a shower. Hopefully a lot of people have sent in a bad review of that particular item.
Barrister in the Bayou
Did you get the Atlier one? I got the one that smelled like vanilla with a hint of incense and I have to say that I kind of like it; but I can see how it would be overpowering… A little dab will certainly do ya.
SeaElle
Love the dress but out of my price point currently… This is my favorite color so I always try to find things in the shade. So flattering on every skin tone!
Does anyone have any recommendations for eye doctors in the DC or NOVA area? I don’t have vision coverage so I’ll be paying out of pocket and don’t have to worry about them accepting a certain insurance. Ideally I would like someone who is friendly, cares about their patients and isn’t constantly running into the next exam room to fit someone else in. TYIA!
jesseves
I see Dr. Leto in Tysons Corner — he’s awesome.
http://www.novaeyecare.com/ourdoctors.html
SeaElle
Thanks! The website says that he is a LASIK expert. In your experience does he try to really advocate for surgery? I would like to get it in the long term but I don’t have the funds to do it anytime soon.
jesseves
Nope, no pressure whatsoever. I was the one to bring it up, and he told me flat out that I wasn’t a good candidate.
Ellie
Whatever you do, avoid My Eye Doctor on Cap Hill.. sorry I have no positive suggestions!
Anonymous
Focus EyeCare on G Street. If you need an ophthalmologist (as opposed to just an eye exam from an optometrist), I had a good experience at Washington Eye Center in Friendship Heights when I needed a specialist.
mer
Medical Faculty Associates at GW Hospital – excellent care!
ADB_BWG
(Got a posting too fast message before)
I really like Dr. Timothy Malone in Great Falls (http://www.drtimothymalone.yourmd.com/). I’ve been seeing him for 10+ years.
Seattleite
This is going to sound so bad, but I recently had a great experience at the eye doctor affiliated with my local Costco. Prices were substantially lower than at my (former) tony suburban eye clinic, I feel like I got a very thorough and careful exam, and the prices of lenses and frames are at least one-third, and maybe one-fourth, what I would have paid at my former clinic. Bonus was that the doctor handed me a copy of my prescription without being asked – former clinic hassled me about it, even though state law says they have to give it.
L
I had a really good experience with my local Costco one as well. He was actually really quick (rushing around) but then when he noticed a red flag he stopped and asked me a bunch of questions and even asked if I wanted info on a specialist to check out the issue in the near future.
Hel-lo
I also had a good experience at Costco. You don’t have to be a Costco member to use their vision center, to see the doctor or to get glasses/contacts.
anon 2.0
I also had a good experience at Costco!
MM
Dr. Michael Rosenblatt at 18th and K (of Klessman and Rosenblatt). I really liked him a lot. Had to switch when I got a new job with a different eye insurance plan, but otherwise would have stayed with him for the long haul.
Anonymous
Eye Doctors of Washington– Clinch and Kang
Magdeline
I love the color of the dress! I’ve been looking for pieces in this color; it is a nice transition from fall to slightly festive Christmastime wear.
Quick threadjack/PSA:
After a long hunt, I found a pair of fleece lined black tights yesterday. I am wearing them today, and I’m beyond cozy!! They look like regular opaque black tights, but they have a thin lining of microfleece. I bought them at Nordstrom Rack under the brand name “Legale” (ha!).
Also, Target has some surprisingly nice 100% wool cardigans out right now. I would provide a link, but I’m a little paranoid to go on shopping websites at work (but not this one, somehow). They are by Merona and come in raspberry, navy, and one-two other colors; they have small ruffles along the edges. The cardigans are the open/buttonless kind, but they are well-structured, warm, and not itchy!
(Can you tell that my office is freezing?)
caesia
I bought two of those cardigans and they are amazing! Soft, not itchy, great shaping for an open cardigan, and lovely rich colors.
MeliaraofTlanth
I*love* fleece-lined tights. I found my pair at Marshall’s, but a friend recently found some at the Bass outlet.
zenmom3
I bought a sweater coat at Target yesterday that is just awesome! It is the marled cardigan in dark gray (it looks tweed — has little tiny flecks of different colors in it). On the website it says it is not available in stores, but I bought mine in the store. It probably will pill after one season, but for $24.99, you can’t beat it!
I got a Banana Republic textured sweater coat in the mail yesterday, and the color (taupe) was much darker and more boring than it looked on the website. It’s going back. Made it easier to make that decision after my lucky find at Target!
Noooo
My boyfriend washed my favorite white wool cardigan. On the bright side, he did laundry without asking. Anyway I know what I am doing today. Cardigan shopping!
meg
I long ago made the mental trade off that my husband doing laundry without my direct supervision was worth more to me than the handful of clothes that get inadvertently ruined.
SF Bay Associate
Ha, I’m the opposite. The SO is not allowed to do any laundry at all. He accidentally ruined one too many things and lost the “privilege.”
Alex
This. It was sad because it’s nice to have someone do it…but he never would fold it anyway.
anon
husband isn’t allowed to touch laundry machines, 10 yrs running since the ‘year of the ruined brand new sweaters.’ he does dishes in exchange thought, i am lucky!
mamabear
Huh, that’s funny. *I* am the partner not allowed to touch the laundry machines in my house. Hubby thinks I ruin everything, including the machines themselves.
And, you know, I am absolutely OK with him thinking that. :)
Anonymous
My husband and I have a system – I put stuff without regular (machine wash cold, tumble dry low) washing instructions in a separate basket. That way, he can do laundry, and I’m responsible for the stuff I need to take care of separately.
Research, Not Law
THIS!
Sorry for the caps, but this solution worked wonders for us. I love that my husband does laundry and certainly didn’t want to “punish” him for it by being pissy – but I also needed him to stop ruining hundreds of dollars worth of clothing each year.
Anonymous
great idea!
gov anon
Mr. gov anon works from home. I usually start a load of laundry and email him part way through the day to put things in the dryer/help with the folding. Except that I ” forget” to remind him on the days I do delicate cycle washes. I just deal with that when I get home. All of the benefits of help without the worry about my favorite sweaters/shirts being mistreated.
Yeah, it’s somewhat passive-aggressive.
Homestar
I made this same mental trade-off! To minimize laundry damage, I also put up a large bullet point list in our laundry area that reminds my husband not to wash or dry certain items. On some items, I have even taken a permanent marker to the tag and written “DO NOT WASH ME.” He knows not to touch those items. My dry cleaner probably thinks I am weird when they see the tags, but I think it helps.
I should do that!
Homestar, I might just steal your method! I’ve come home to suit pants in the dryer and sweaters in the dryer. Then I told my husband not to dry certain items, so I came home to the drying rack overloaded with all my clothes, including socks! Sigh, he tries really hard, but maybe the bullet-point list would help :)
Now he mostly does dishes instead, and that works much better. But every so often, he decides he’ll do the laundry. On another note, how do you get your SOs to put the items away in a drawer that makes sense? Again, I appreciate the folding, but I end up with gym shorts in the underwear drawer, and dress shirts in the PJ drawer! He can work from home, so basically all of his clothes have the same function, vs. mine that are sleep, workout, office, weekend wear. So complicated to be a woman, I tell ya! :)
Legal Marketer
I have the perfect SO laundry situation. We have two hampers – regular clothes go in one, special treatment clothes go in the other. He does everything in the regular one (socks, undies, casual clothes, ps, towels, etc.) and doesn’t touch the other one. If he is in doubt about something in the regular one, he just sets it aside; better safe than sorry. He folds the laundry and leaves it in a basket for me to put away in my own drawers. I take care of the handwash/dry clean hamper when I get around to it, but the basics are usually done on a pretty consistent basis. It’s taken 10 years, but I think we’ve got a good thing going…
AnonInfinity
We posted at the same time, Legal Marketer! Different hampers FTW!
Bonnie
I may have to try that.
Anonymous
Yep, different hampers works.
AnonInfinity
Our solution is different hampers. We have four different hampers, with different instructions for each one (white = hot water, hot dryer; blue = cold water, medium dryer; red = delicate cycle, no dryer; green = delicate cycle, low dryer; and a dry-cleaning bag).
As for the different drawers, I don’t know what to tell you. We have that problem at my house, too. I just live with it and thank the universe that I don’t have to fold my own laundry.
Littlest Attorney
Similar solution, but we don’t have room for multiple hangers. Dry cleaning goes in a tote bag. Clothes that can be washed but not put in the dryer goes in mesh bags. The mesh bags get zipped and then washed with the appropriate color and then the contents are hung to try. Only down side is that occasionally the mesh bags don’t get zipped and that causes problems ….
KS
I have an even better solution, which works here in NYC but obviously isn’t feasible everywhere: we send our laundry out to be washed, dried and folded! I put my delicates in a special hamper and take care of those items myself, but otherwise — we outsource it all, just like we do with dry cleaning. It’s really not that expensive, and it saves either of us from the chore of washing, drying and folding. Problem solved!
AnonInfinity
KS — I’d love to do that. I have done that on vacation before and it is just wonderful to get back a pile of stuff that is clean and neatly folded.
I know my husband absolutely wouldn’t go for it, unfortunately. He does keep up with the laundry rather well, so that’s fine. The little sore spot we have is the other housework. Neither of us really have time to do a good job at it right now, and he’s 100% against getting a housekeeper because he has this notion that grown ups should be able to do their own housework.
Anonymous
Littlest Attorney: Your mesh bag idea is more space/time/energy saving than separate hampers/loads. Thanks for sharing!
Bonnie
A male friend once told me that men intentionally screw up the laundry so they never have to do it again.
KS
Oh, yes, I’m quite sure that’s true.
Marie Curie
My mother used to say, “Do it slowly and badly and you’ll never have to do it again” (not only pertaining to laundry). Indeed!
anon
No Reply button above, but my husband and I do the exact inverse of Legal Marketer’s system – he does all the special laundry (exactly because I’ve ruined too many of his items), and I do the general stuff. The special laundry could be anyone’s – my silk stuff, his uniforms, daughter’s uniforms.
I honestly TRY to do the special laundry. I’ve tried to squeeze past in the hallway saying “Here, I’m going to start a load of air-dry stuff, don’t worry about -” and had him take the basket out of my hands insisting he’ll do it. Forty-five minutes later there’s a lot of “Is this air-dry? Uh, are these your bras or Daughter’s?”
He’s ex-military.
MM
My husband rues the day when I caught the Everybody Loves Raymond episode where Ray and the father teach Robert how to intentionally do things poorly so he’ll never be asked to help around the house again. I turned to look at him, he got a really guilty look on his face, and then said “D*mmit. New strategy.”
My husband and I each do our own laundry and take turns with the sheets and towels. This is after *I* ruined some of *his* clothes. Just easier this way. We’ve been married only a little while and are still ironing out how to split up chores, but I always get amused when he is “proud of himself” for doing something new right. The other day, I caught him smiling proudly as he finished putting the dishes away. I said, “What are you so proud of?” And he responded, “I was able to unload the entire dishwasher without once asking you where something goes. And also I just put away our suitcase from last weekend without you asking me to” As if it’s an accomplishment that he knows where items in our kitchen go or can see the suitcase lying in the middle of the floor! It was adorable and infuriating at the same time.
Trunk
My husband spent four years claiming that he couldn’t put the dishes away because he did not know where everything went — I finally told him that if he can’t learn, the next time we move I will require him to “assist” my unpacking and organization of the kitchen.
… he magically knows where everything goes now, wisk and all. :)
Anon V
I posted a few months ago about this but with all the recent dating threadjacks, it has me thinking about this more and more.
I’m 25 and have never had a long-term relationship. Whenever I meet a guy and if we start dating, things are great for the first few weeks until the issue of when we’re going to have sex comes up. I’m very upfront about the fact that I will not sleep with a guy unless it is a committed, monogamous relationship. That usually buys me a few months until it actually gets to that point and the question of sex is brought up again.
Did I mention I’m a virgin? Yes, I am, something people don’t expect that when they meet me. I have a dirty sense of humor, curse like a sailor when riled up, and channel Angelina Jolie when it comes to my sense of fashion. I also don’t believe in having sex before marriage (for me, I don’t judge those who think otherwise). That means no sex, of any kind, and the clothes stay on. I’m not cold or standoffish by any means though. Friends and family see me as affectionate and warm, a hug and a kiss is standard greeting for me in personal situations and I’m not uncomfortable being physical with a man I’m in a relationship with. But, making out and heavy petting can only go so far without him expecting more.
My reasons for not having sex have nothing to do with religion, which I think makes it harder for people to understand. I only want to be intimate with one man, my future husband. Trust me, I know how antiquated that sounds coming from a forward-thinking, career-minded woman in 2011. But it’s how I feel and I don’t see myself compromising on this issue. Friends tell me I’ll change my mind but I hope I don’t. This is something that is very important to me and I hope to find a man one day who understands this.
As I get older, it seems to get harder and harder for people (men and women) to understand why I choose to remain a virgin. It’s not that I haven’t had opportunity, I’ve chosen to wait. With our culture becoming so sexualized in every aspect, it feels like I’m fighting a losing battle. It’s hard enough trying to find a man that I connect with only to have this issue put a wedge between us. I think about sex as much as the next person but am not ready to be that close to a man I don’t see as my forever. Until then, the only thing getting that close to me will be my vibrator.
(And before you mention it, I know nothing is certain and any relationship can crumble at any moment. I’m the child of divorced parents and feel that has made me even more wary/choosy when it comes to marriage and settling down. In other words, I don’t see myself tying the knot unless I’m 120% sure).
I’m starting to ramble so I’ll wrap this up. I guess what I really want to know is can I expect a man to stay in a relationship with me if I refuse to have sex with him?
As a community of like-minded women, I respect your opinions and look forward to your honest feedback/thoughts on this. Thank you in advance.
Diana Barry
I think that meeting a like-minded guy will be very difficult, honestly. And as a person who chooses virginity but *not* for religious reasons (I’ve never actually met someone like that IRL), it will be even more difficult.
Are you open to dating super-religious guys?
Supra
I agree that finding a non-religious man that understands and accepts this will be very difficult.
I don’t think you should compromise your beliefs if you don’t want to, but I think you should start considering the possibility that you may not meet (or, may miss out on some wonderful ones) a man that will choose to have a relationship with you if that means waiting for sex until he is married to you.
As an aside, I *do* think that there is something nice about being with only one person. However, I do think that unless you find someone with whom you “click” instantly and get married a few months later, it may be tough to find someone to stick it out.
Batgirl
Great point–you really may end up limiting yourself in terms of who you meet all for the idea that you only want to sleep with one man. With all due respect for your beliefs, you should ask yourself whether the ideal of sleeping with just one man is more important to you than having your evaluation of whether a man is right for you revolve almost solely around whether he is willing to go along with that one thing. And then you may very well feel stuck with him because you don’t want to compromise that belief by leaving the marriage.
In the end, I think it is more important to find the right person (even if that means being with the wrong people) than it is to judge them on one single criteria (here, their willingness to wait until marriage). But that is not everyone’s position and you could very well meet the man of your dreams and find that he feels the same way you do. Good luck regardless!
Anonymous
Agree with Supra, it will be difficult for you, but it’s likely you will end up engaged within 4-8 months and married within 1-1.5 years, so he won’t have to wait that long.
anon
Early in your post you say that you are only interested in having sex within a committed, monogamous, relationship. Then you state that you don’t believe in having sex before marriage. Then yet again, you state that you are only interested in having sex with your future husband.
It sounds as though you are waffling on your position and perhaps that is what is making the men you are dating walk away.
cfm
Yeah we are on the same wave length here
Anon V
The reason I don’t tell a guy I’m a virgin right away is that I’m biding my time, so to speak, to see what type of person he is. There have been guys I’ve walked away from because they aren’t into monogamy, which is fine, better to know sooner. I don’t see myself waffling on my position, just not wanting to tell a guy I’m a virgin by choice until I get to know him better. Maybe I should be more upfront with that but to me that’s sharing too much way too soon.
cfm
Yeah I think that is your problem! that is pretty sneaky, and I understand you want to see what type of person he is, but if I was a guy and you told me you didn’t have sex until a committed relationship, I would respect that. If three months down the road, when I have committed to you, you say not until marriage, but I believe in having sex before marriage to see if we are compatible, I’d be pissed and judge what kind of person you are, because that is manipulative. you don’t have to tell people you a virgin, but right around when you tell them you don;t have sex you have to be honest that it is not until marriage.
Industry Association Counsel in DC
Couldn’t agree more. Your issues is not sex/no sex. It’s that you are not honest. And no relationship is going to work without honesty, sex or no sex. You need to say “no sex till marriage” up front, and then find men (a man) that is comfortable with that and is willing to wait.
b23
Have y’all ever thought maybe she was just unclear in her post? You’re all accusing her of dishonesty, misleading the guys, bait and switch, etc. It’s kind of awful to jump all over her, saying guys are going to flee, when maybe she misspoke. She certainly didn’t say she tells them one thing at the beginning and another later. Maybe by “future husband” she meant she would have sex when engaged. Maybe “committed, monogamous” relationship meant marriage. It was a long post and she used different words in two different places, and y’all have accused her of all sorts of things.
anon
@b23, the original poster has already admitted in a subsequent post that she says one thing to the men that she’s dating and then goes into more clarification with them later on down the road.
b23
Well, I think it’s interesting that the judging was occurring well before the subsequent post. I’m still not sure she was doing exactly what y’all have accused her of, anyway.
cfm
I read “that usually buys me a few months” as the statement that she was not being upfront, since if she told them why would they need another answer in a few months.
Lyssa
Lying or deliberately misleading is one thing, but I don’t think that she’s obligated to state “up front” (as in, before the issue has come up) that she’s not just giving it up right away. That certainly can’t be dishonest, and wouldn’t that be a little weird – “So, what do you want for dinner?” “Steak, medium rare. Oh, by the way, I don’t put out.” I mean, how do you work that into a conversation with someone you’re not serious with?
(Also, I really object to the idea that we’re so obligated to have sex that it’s literally dishonest to not without specifically stating it.)
cfm
No what she is doing is when it comes up, as in after a few dates, starting to get serious, she is saying she waits until the relationship is monagomous relationship. then later, once they have complied with that, she clarifies that its really not until marriage.
It’s dishonest to say one thing and then switch to the other, it doesn’t even have to do with sex actually. It’s not about obligation at all, but if a guy does believe in sex before marriage, why waste everyones time for that long? I would feel the same way if the genders were reversed.
anon
I agree.
Lyssa
cfm, if she’s actually, knowing it’s not true, saying that “wait until monogamy”, then, when they are, saying “oops, I meant marriage”, then I would agree with you. I guess I didn’t read it that way, though, just that she was saying that it had to be serious and she preferred marriage, or even that her attitude shifts as relationships progress.
cfm
Lyssa I saw that she said she tells them she waits until a monogamous relationship “that usually buys me a few months” until she tells them about waiting for marriage as the bait and switch. It seems she is wasting both her time and the guys if the guy feels strongly about sex before marriage
cbackson
I really agree with your last sentence. And I feel a lot of sympathy for the OP, because although I’m divorced (and thus, obviously, will be intimate with more than one person in my life), I’m extremely reserved about physical intimacy of any kind. This is a really difficult issue to navigate in the modern dating world.
Amelia Bedelia
I AGREE!!!!!!!!
wholeheartedly.
My husband and I did not have sex until we were married. His choice. He didn’t introduce himself as “Hi. my name is future husband. I am a virgin and won’t have sex until I am married.” ummmmmm, I would have run if he had done that! We just progressed naturally. And when it came up, we discussed it, and moved on.
Amelia Bedelia
cfm, maybe I misunderstood. I didn’t think the OP was pulling the bait and switch. I understood that she just did not discuss it until she was a few months into the relationship?
cfm
She clarifies later in the thread that I was reading it the right way. When it comes up the first time (few weeks in) she says she is waiting for a monogamous relationship, then a few months in, (when it is committed and monogamous) she says she is actually waiting until marriage. She also writes that she does not see much of a difference between committed relationship and marriage. (but will only have sex after marraige so obviously she realizes there is a difference) that’s what I have taken issue with, and would if the genders were reversed.
cfm
Just a clarification before I answer more- you say you are upfront about not having sex unless it is a committed monogomous relationship, but then you say its actually no sex until marriage. Are you being upfront about that? Those two things are very different IMO- is the person your dating expecting it to progess once he is committed and mono and then you are suprising him with the fact that it is actual until marriage?
CW
I agree – a committed monogamous relationship is different from marriage.
I think that, as a general statement, it’s going to be more difficult for you to find someone who shares similar values. However, I don’t think it’s impossible to find someone who is willing to wait if they’re not surprised by the news. By being more upfront earlier on in the relationship, you weed out more people and don’t waste your time.
Bee
Since you’re thinking… here are some rhetorical questions for you. First, are your choices in fashion and humor sending an inaccurate message? Are you attracting men who expect something you are not offering? Next, you might think about how or where you are meeting people. Would a change in strategy help you find someone more like what you really want?
Anon13
Yeah, it actually sounds like a classic “bait and switch” to me.
Jas
I don’t like the idea that avoiding dressing in revealing clothes or telling dirty jokes is “inaccurate” because she doesn’t want to have sex. Her fashion sense and her humour are just as much a part of her as her sexual practices, and they’re only inaccurate if she’s doing it to try and attract men, rather than because that’s who she is.
Amelia Bedelia
so she can’t wear something sexy because she doesn’t want to have sex? I am pretty sure we are walking into dangerous territory if we agree to that standard.
Anon Two
My story is quite similar to yours. I, too, only wanted to be intimate with one man. And, ultimately, I found him. I really don’t know what more to tell you than there are likeminded men and women out there – non-religious, but perhaps ‘conservative’ by 2011 standards – so stick to your convictions.
Bianca
This. From experience, there ARE likeminded men. Look for the sweet guys.
SB
I know several women with stories like this. Two were super religious and found other super religious husbands, so they were each other’s first. The other just wanted to wait until she met her husband, but they did not wait until the wedding. I think your odds of finding a man who will wait until the wedding, unless he is super religious or conservative, are pretty slim. I think you have a much better shot at finding someone who will wait until after you are long term/engaged.
Anon Three
I think other posters have pointed out the possible discrepancies/confusion in what you tell men – and I agree with that.
HOWEVER, men who will wait exist. It might make your dating life tougher, but you only need ONE guy. And let me tell you, the idea of sleeping with ANY man out of desperation/fear/knowledge that he might leave/you might not find another REALLY is no kind of choice.
I was upfront about waiting till marriage and so have many of my friends. I’m practically the last of the gang who is unmarried and have been in a serious relationship for over a year.
Amelia Bedelia
I agree.
If you feel like you HAVE to have sex with the man to keep him, you don’t want him anyway.
MelD
I think there are multiple issues here. First, you say you want a monogamous relationship and then move onto require marriage. Then you also add that clothing must stay on at all times, which I think is pretty distinct from not wanting to have sex before marriage. I know I would feel like someone led me on if I was several months into a relationship and someone said “Oh by the way, no sex before marriage and clothes must stay on. At all times.”
I think people may be understanding of no sex before marriage, but you take it several steps farther than that. I think most people understandably want some level of intimacy before they leap into marriage, and as you get older, it’s going to be hard to find people who share your views and aren’t ultra religious. I’d imagine that even at 25, a lot of those ultra religious individuals will be married already.
cfm
Yeah exactly. No kidding you haven’t had a long term relationship, you are starting it off dishonestly, when they figure out you guys are not compatable they leave. Start being honest and upfront, why are you wasting the time? (Your own and theirs)
found a peanut
“I’d imagine that even at 25, a lot of those ultra religious individuals will be married already.”
Yes. This. I know many religious people who wouldn’t have sexual relations before marriage and they are all basically married by 25 (and sometimes much younger).
Amelia Bedelia
I don’t agree. My husband was 32. all of his friends married in their early thirties. they are ALL ultra religious and (at least say) they waited until marriage for sex. Granted, they may have waited “longer” to get married because they were pursuing professional degrees, but the fact remains that they all got married in their early thirties, not early twenties.
I know I keep responding, but this is a big topic for me. Media, and often our friends, often tries to make us believe that NO ONE doesn’t live the sex and the city life. It just isn’t true.
Anon Three
hear hear.
My boyfriend is 35 and totally committed to sex within marriage alone. My friend’s husband was 29 when they met and he had NEVER had a girlfriend before her. Very attractive, tall, great job – total catch. He just chose not to date until he met someone he wanted to marry because he wasn’t going to mess with sex outside marriage.
Amelia Medelia, we are on the whole “everybody’s doing it” perception and not only do I buy it, I am almost insulted by it. I’m not 13 and I do not make serious decisions about my life based on peer pressure.
Anon Three
crap, I meant to say we are “here” on the perception, as in – I agree :)
Diana Barry
Ditto. This disconnect (and waiting to tell people until you have been dating them for a little while) will cause many, if not all, guys to walk away. Be up front about it right away, if this is an iron-clad rule.
Lyssa
Yeah, it is a tough issue. I’m not in the OP’s camp, but I guess at least close to it, as in I don’t see it as something to just throw around willy-nilly. For me, guys have always been really understanding about that, BUT, I got married fairly young, and my restriction was pretty much only on the stuff that can make babies. (I know the whole ____ is sex line, but it doesn’t work for me. The way I see it, sex is a big deal primarily because it makes more people, which is huge, pretty much the biggest thing that any of us can do in this world. So the stuff that can make babies is the really important part, IMO. )
I feel like I should have something to tell the OP, advicewise, but I guess I just don’t know. I hope things work out for her, though. :)
Anonymous Poser
I was pretty much in your camp. My reasons were non-religious.
I was up-front about not having *ahem* that kind of sex yet (I wasn’t waiting for marriage, as I didn’t know whether I would ever get married: I just wasn’t ready for sex till I was 24 or 25), and I stuck to that until I was with someone I was willing to take that step with. Some guys just took my statement as a challenge, which was not the way it was intended.
I also had a sailor’s mouth, and was a huge flirt, and sometimes wore provocative clothing. But I also fooled around. I wonder whether there’s a disconnect somewhere. I once dated a man who wanted to not even kiss before we got married…Let’s just say we did not get married, and the reason we did not had NOTHING to do with the lack of physicality of our relationship (there were other issues).
Kelly
I grew up going to religious school and I knew plenty of people who waited for marriage. Some it worked out well, some it didn’t. I agree with another poster that you will be hard pressed to find someone willing to wait for marriage that is not religious.
If you decide you are comfortable being intimate once you are in a committed relationship, that I think that will be respected by the people you choose to date, and that is a common desire. Since you do waffle between relationship/waiting for marriage, I think you should really think about what you want, and why you think this way (e.g. issues stemming from your parents divorce, friend’s bad experiences…).
I have a few friends who waited until early/mid 20s to lose their virginity and are in serious relationships now. I don’t think the virginity harmed their dating lives much in their early 20s, and I think they’re happy with their decisions. I only know one non-religious person in your age bracket that is a virgin, and to be honest she has a lot of issues about life, relationships, and friendships.
Veronica
I guess what I really want to know is can I expect a man to stay in a relationship with me if I refuse to have sex with him?
Mostly, not one you’d want to be in a relationship with. It’s all very well to talk about the oversexualization of our culture (I agree!) but fetishizing virginity is very much part and parcel of that oversexualization. Sex really isn’t as big a deal as it’s made out to be and, again just my opinion, the sooner you have that exploration and get over it, the sooner you’re able to have the confidence and skill to reject bad sex and insist on sex that you really like, which really makes it much easier to build a relationship and/or marriage that will last. Keep in mind, sex between virgins is always TERRIBLE at first, men take a lot of training to get you off properly, and if you’re already married to the guy, you could very well feel horribly trapped, insanely guilty, and facing years of resentment until divorce or one of you caving and having an affair. Mind you, if you had an active and enjoyable sex life with men you dated and just avoided vaginal penetration by a penis, that’s a little weird but something you could expect a like-minded man (one you’d be interested in) to accommodate cheerfully till you feel like changing that rule. However, if you’re saying you don’t even fool around with men you date, that is, frankly, extremely weird. 25 is still pretty young, mind you, but if you haven’t even felt enough lust to want to break your rule, either you’re definitely dating the wrong men or something else is going on there that maybe you should consider seeing a knowledgeable, feminist therapist about. Good luck.
Anonymous
I love what Veronica said. When you said you dress like Angelina Jolie, it sounds like you are attracting men with a Madonna/whore complex. At some level, there is a little of that in all of us, but it can be taken to extreme.
b23
“Sex really isn’t as big a deal as it’s made out to be and, again just my opinion, the sooner you have that exploration and get over it, the sooner you’re able to have the confidence and skill to reject bad sex and insist on sex that you really like, which really makes it much easier to build a relationship and/or marriage that will last.”
That’s ridiculous. She didn’t say she has never wanted to break her rule. You’re completely judging someone you don’t even know, saying her marriage is most likely going to be horrible unless she has sex beforehand. I made that decision and have been wonderfully happy. So have lots of other women. Stop the judging, seriously.
cbackson
Agreed. Sex *is* a big deal to many people, including (obviously) the OP. And although the first time I had sex wasn’t the *best* time, nor was it terrible, and it’s a memory I’ll always cherish.
Amelia Bedelia
I concur. thank you.
Hel-lo
Yeah, I’m not sure “cherish” is the word I’d use.
Amelia Bedelia
this. My husband was a virgin and I didn’t face years of resentment and feeling trapped when we started having sex! what a gross overgeneralization!
Lyssa
I disagree that dressing in a sexy way (and when I think “slutty dresser”, I don’t really think Angie, so I’m assuming we’re talking PG) is somehow connected to putting out. In fact, I’m pretty sure that’s one of the classic feminist lines of thought. She should dress how she wants, and have sex with who she wants, or not, as she pleases.
Unless you’re talking about the sort of clothing that would literally get one mistaken for a prostitute, I don’t really think how you dress makes that big of a difference. Guys who would wait aren’t going to suddenly decide not to approach her because she’s wearing a short skirt or something. (Those guys still have hormones, too!)
Batgirl
I think that if you are set on not having sex before marriage, that’s something you have to be clear about from the first time it comes up (but don’t let it come up right away). I don’t think it’s fair to do a bait-and-switch by saying you don’t want sex until you’re committed and monogamous because that suggests that it’s on the table and creates an expectation.
For a lot of people (myself included), sex is an important part of a relationship and important for building intimacy. You should realize that for some people, their decision that sex is important before marriage is a view that is as strongly held as your decision not to have sex before marriage.
I also would never try to change someone’s mind about something like this if it was important to them, but have you examined why you feel this way in the first place? Is it trust? Is it making something very special? If so, I would share those reasons with your partner when you do tell them how you feel.
Anon
I agree. Try to delve into why this matters so much to you. That will help the other person understand you better. And maybe your decision is worth rethinking as well. Having a hard and fast rule for yourself about no sex until marriage may limit your life more than it benefits your life. I’m not saying you have to be willing to put out for a guy, but I’m guessing there are some trust issues and control issues beneath all this that are well worth exploring.
Lil
I was once in your shoes and found and married that guy. They are very few and far between. We dated for years before we married, and you know what? It was a disaster – honestly, we were so incompatible physically, and the fallout and pain from that ultimately caused our divorce (at least IMO). I was devastated to find out that all our waiting was for nothing – or at least nothing good.
Just something to think about.
Kelly
This. I know other people this happened to also. And, not one of my religious friends who lost their virginity before marriage regrets it.
anon
I doubt that very much.
Amelia Bedelia
not one of my religious friends who waited until marriage to lose their virginity regrets it.
Accountress
I’m sorry, are you me?
Anon V
Thank you all so much for your responses so far. I do get that it’s sneaky and probably turning guys away but it’s scary to admit that I’m still holding onto my v-card by choice. I do plan to take your advice and start telling guys that I’m not ready for sex until I’m married because, like you said, it’s better to be honest from the get go.
It’s just that everytime I’ve told people, they look at me differently and start to treat me differently than they had before. However, nothing good ever comes without risk. Thank you for being so candid with me and making me see that honesty really is the best policy from the start.
Since some of you have already asked and are probably wondering what the root of me not wanting sex before marriage is, here it is. I’m the type of person who likes to be in control. I’m very independent and have no problem doing what I want, when I want to. I’ve traveled through Europe on my own, go to the movies on my own, will have dinner at a restaurant by myself.
There’s nothing I won’t try once but for me, sex is the one area of my life that I want to reserve. I want the man who will become my husband to know that I waited for him. I want to “give him” my virginity on our wedding night. Again, as I’m typing this I know how weird it sounds but it’s how I feel.
cfm
Obviously, anonymous internet commenters are not going to change a strongly held belief. But since your willing to admit you need to change your honesty policy I just want to put this out there. Some men will appreciate you “giving” your virginity on your wedding night. But there is also something to be said about giving him your heart for life, giving him a wife that is 100% sure what she wants, has expolored other options and learned about herself and her likes and dislikes and is now ready to be a partner in marriage for the rest of life. that gift lasts longer than a night.
Anon V
Isn’t it possible for me to give him my heart as well? Can’t I know what I want, learn about myself and explore my options without having sex? I like to think I can but it’s discussions like this where I really feel I’m fighting a losing battle with what I want and value.
And I’ll repeat, the bait and switch thing is bad and I won’t do that anymore. But telling a guy you really like that you don’t want to have sex until marriage is terrifying because it is such a common/expected thing to do in relationships.
b23
Yes, it is. In my opinion, when you engage in heavy petting and making out, etc., you get a pretty good feel for how the sex is going to be. I know other people haven’t had it work out well, but it was perfect for my husband and me. He turned out to be exactly what I expected after marriage, and I think it was the best thing we did for our marriage.
cfm
Of course, and I don’t mean to sound judgy at all, she just seems to be focused on the one aspect, of “giving” the virginity (which lasts for mere minutes) and it doesn’t sound like she is totally sure in what she wants. (defining it as a control issue, defiance about sex) If someone has come to that conclusion fully, that is wonderful and beautiful. I’m just offering some food for thought, since there seems to be uncertainty in what her exact end goal is.
anon for this
Ditto to b23. For what it’s worth, I used to think a lot like you do. But once I realized that my insane need to be in control at all times was driving a lot of my sexual values, I amended my position. Before DH, and I hadn’t done more than kissing. But once I met him and we became serious in the emotional sense, it became obvious that building physical intimacy was a really important step that I DIDN’T want to skip. I’m not going to sugarcoat it: giving up that sense of control didn’t come easily at first. It was downright scary. But I knew I loved and trusted him completely, and it started feeling like we were holding something back from our relationship. It definitely helped that DH shared my values in wanting to save sexual activities for a committed relationship, though he wasn’t necessarily in the no-sex-before-marriage camp.
In the three years we dated, we fooled around a lot and were virgins only in the most technical sense when we married, as Lyssa alluded to. The heavy physical stuff started around the 6-month mark when we both felt ready for it. I’m honestly not sure if it’s possible to progress in a relationship after a certain point if physical intimacy is completely missing from the equation. We married at ages 23 & 25 and the fooling around we did prior was a darn good indicator of how sex would be (great!). In fact, sometimes I wish we’d had sex sooner because there really wasn’t a reason to wait. We loved each other, we knew we wanted to marry, and our relationship was rock-solid. “Saving ourselves” (I really hate that term) was, in hindsight, based on an almost childish belief that waiting ’til marriage would make sex more sacred.
This is a lot of rambling, and I don’t know if it’s helpful at all, but I felt the need to respond because I’ve been in your position before. It’s great & wonderful to save physical intimacy for the man you love more than anything … just make sure you’re not putting your virginity on a pedestal at the expense of building an honest, open relationship. Does that make sense?
CSF
Be honest and upfront. But I will NEVER regret that my husband is the only person I have ever had sex with. If this is a decision you are confident in making, then that’s great. You shouldn’t be coerced into having sex just so that you can test drive the car before you buy it.
Also, when I told my friend, even before we ever went on a date (now husband), that I wasn’t going to have sex before marriage, his reply was “I’m willing to wait, it’ll be worth it.” Not every guy out there is going to look at you weird for waiting.
anon
i would also say … that maybe contacting a therapist would be helpful for you. your control issues and your equating control with sex may raise some problems in future relationships, or it they may be indications of other fears or thoughts or who-knows-what that might be illuminating to discuss with a professional therapist. just a thought.
Diana Barry
I agree.
Anon
Agree.
And, I want to throw this out and I may be off base, but what you are describing sounds a lot like a survivor of sexual abuse or rape.
Anon
Sex is controlling you. You realize that, right? So this bit about you being controlling is backfiring.
I’m not saying you need to have sex with anyone. Do what you want. But you need to step back and recognize the true dynamic at play.
Kelly
yeah this control statement threw a red flag for me also.
Veronica
Since some of you have already asked and are probably wondering what the root of me not wanting sex before marriage is, here it is. I’m the type of person who likes to be in control.
I really don’t see how independence is incompatible with a sex life.
I want the man who will become my husband to know that I waited for him. I want to “give him” my virginity on our wedding night.
I also really don’t see how this is compatible with independence.
Lyssa
I don’t either, but she shouldn’t care in the least. It’s up to her to decide what her independence means to her, not you or me. If this is important to her, I respect that.
Lee
I totally agree. I think the second quote shows the antithesis of independence. By building up your virginity up as a “gift” that is so valuable and precious, you are giving up a huge measure of control and making yourself extremely vulnerable. After you give up that gift, what is left? Are you no longer valuable? What if the worst case scenario happens and he cheats on you?
momentsofabsurdity
I have a friend who’s much like you – very in control and very driven and I think the idea of sex (which by its nature involves a loss of control of her body) honestly scares her.
I have to be honest – if I was with a man who told me he didn’t want to have sex before marriage, I wouldn’t marry that man. That’s because I think that sex is a hugely important part of marriage, and that it’s possible to really really like or love someone, and just be sexually incompatible with them. Granted, if you’re not married, you have less of an incentive to “force” sexual compatibility (so to speak) and you’re more inclined to just move on – but I don’t think sex should be one of those things that you force. I haven’t been with many men at all, and I’ve been with ones who, as nice as they were and as much as I liked them, weren’t a good fit for me sexually at all. And if all I did was clothes on (which I guess just leaves making out? Dry humping?) honestly, I wouldn’t have figured it out.
And these were situations with men where I figured it out several months into the relationship since I don’t have sex unless I am in a monogamous relationship — and that was TOUGH. To find I had invested that much emotion and time into a relationship that was so off kilter on such a base level was difficult. I cannot imagine if I had invested a MARRIAGE into that.
Your life is your life. But yes, you are cutting off a lot of “good” guys, and possibly, though certainly not definitely, a “good” sex life in the future. Finding a man willing to wait who is not religious will be difficult – not impossible, but difficult. I agree you need to be honest from the start because men like that do exist and you won’t find them by lying to them.
Out of curiosity – do you want your future husband to be a virgin as well?
Going anon for this one
Some perspective that may be helpful to you: I’m a divorced woman with a very limited sexual history (my ex-husband plus my very first boyfriend). I’m dating again, and have been celibate since my divorce. I haven’t really progressed beyond date 4 or 5 with anyone, and no one has pressured me for sex (which, to my mind at least, suggests that the commenters who think that sex is a non-event and not a big deal for our age group don’t move in the same social circle that I do – and I live in a large, progressive coastal city). For me, sex is very special and something that I only wanted in a committed relationship with someone I feel very comfortable with.
That said, I recently broke things off with a guy who admitted to me that he was a virgin. For me, it had a lot to do with my own personal preferences (the dynamic of being the “teacher”/more experienced person in the relationship isn’t sexy to me), but I was also concerned that he seemed to be rushing the relationship along emotionally because he wanted to be physically intimate with me. I think that, deep down, he was just really attracted to me and wanted to have sex, and so convinced himself that we were in love (after three dates!) and meant to be together. I wasn’t on the same page, and so I ended things.
I think that men who know that you’re reserving sex for marriage may feel a bit of pressure as the relationship progresses. Even though marriage is, for many (although not all) single people, an ultimate goal, not every relationship feels like an audition for marriage, even if the relationship is physically intimate. In your case, however, your partners will know that there’s a “do not cross” line with marriage on the other side of it. That can be frightening, especially if it’s something that has to be confronted early in the relationship.
My advice to you is to be very open about this. No, I don’t think it has to come up on date one or two. But the first time that you’re having a talk about what’s important to you in life, you need to be able to talk about this and to explain it clearly. Are you looking for marriage in your dating life now? If so, I think you may be able to find men who will go down that road with you, although their motivations may be different than yours. If you’re not – if you’re just out to have fun – but you’re not interested in physical intimacy, yes, I think it’ll be harder to find partners.
Amelia Bedelia
No one should make you feel weird for wanting to do that. Sex is a deeply personal choice. If you are sure this is your rule, don’t break it. People can change their minds, but don’t be guilted into abandoning something you truly want to do just because some other people choose differently.
Amelia Badelia, I think I love you
Yes indeed! I’m 30 and have never had sex. Though the roots of my decision are religious, that is not the only reason. I have thought long and hard about this (ahem, that pun was *not* intended) and I still plan to wait for marriage because in the end, that is what I truly want even though I know there will continue to be times when in the short term I really, really don’t want to wait!
It’s very tough to stick to your guns and hear your own voice amongst what the media are telling you when it comes to the “what”, the “when”, and the “why”.
I also have the clothes-stay-on rule which yes, is pretty rare. The way I figure things, if a guy isn’t happy with that then not only is he not right for me but also I’m clearly not right for him.
Amelia Bedelia, I think I love you
Amelia B*e*delia, my apologies for misspelling you.
anon
consider showing more respect to the men you’re dating, and you’ll probably get more respect in return.
1 – you need to sort out exactly what your boundaries are. from clothes-on-at-all-times to fooling around to sex. from dating to monogamous relationship to marriage. as you put it now, you could drive a truck through the gray areas, and gray areas are not conducive to a good relationship.
2 – reality is that most people, especially in their late 20s/30s, have reduced sex down to almost a non-event that happens several dates in and may or may not mean much. at least, that’s how it is in NYC and other major cities. so your POV, while it will be respected, will not be widely shared.
3 – therefore you need to be upfront about your point of view and respect that the guy in front of you has sexual needs and preferences just like you do. no one likes being misled, on sex or any other matter – and in fact sex is probably one of the most offensive ways to be misled.
4 – as a practical matter, stop dressing like Angelina Jolie. there are groups of committed adult virgins who are very public about their preferences. maybe go check them out?
anon
Stick to your principles. It’s horrible to think that you would have to have sex just in order to keep a guy, even when you want to wait. I think you will meet someone who appreciates your moral sense, and won’t ask you to compromise your principles.
anon
agree, but i think the bigger issue is that she’s not actually sure what her principles are. and she certainly isn’t communicating them very clearly.
MelD
Her principles are based on some idea of control, which I find to be really problematic. There are plenty of good reasons to wait, but I don’t think this is one of them. I agree with anon above that seeing a therapist may be helpful, because a control issue in this area may also indicate control issues in areas that the OP is not discussing that could also be causing problems in her relationships.
Anon
My theory:
I think you are trying to keep yourself safe by taking sex out of the picture. You want to make wise choices. You want to ensure a good future for yourself. And you think avoiding sex will do this. Is this a correct assumption? Will this really help you or hurt you or do you need to address the real underlying fears at work in your life?
Anon V
Once again, your comments are really making me think and want to sit down, write everything I’m about in a list, and determine how I want to move forward in the future with the topic of sex and how I present myself.
I’ve said it before, the bait and switch is bad and while I kind of knew that’s how it was, a committed and monogamous relationship isn’t different from marriage in my mind. Yes, to most of you it is but the former is easier to tell men than the latter.
As for the comments on seeing a therapist for my “control issues,” let me elaborate. I like knowing what will happen in situations before I enter them. Most of the time, I do because I’ve been in them before. With sex, everything will be new to me and the thought of being so exposed and close to someone is scary. Like some of you have said, “just do it and it won’t seem like such a big deal,” that’s not how I want it. I’m a pretty normal person, minus the virgin part.
anon
good luck to you. all of your decisions are completely up to you, of course. and a good airing-out on corporette might be a cheaper and quicker alternative to therapy, after all! :)
momentsofabsurdity
Yes. Sex is scary. I said above that I have a friend much like you, who is in control in every aspect of her life (doesn’t drink or do drugs, focused on academics and career, etc etc) and she hasn’t had sex either at 24. I think in some ways she feels broken, whereas you seem to be confident in your decision – which is great!
However, just like anything else, decisions have consequences, which you seem to be recognizing.
I do think the control thing is worth seeing a therapist about. It’s not that I think you’re not normal – plenty of people in therapy are “normal”! But a new experience like sex shouldn’t be this scary for you and (I suspect) partly is because you’ve been building it up for so long. I think it would be worth exploring WHY accepting the emotional and physical connection to another human being is so scary to you . I’m not saying the end result of therapy should be that you want to have sex before marriage, at all. But it SHOULD give you more confidence that you will be okay when you give up that control and have sex, whether before or after marriage.
cfm
Not to be all over this thread, but a committed and monogamous relationship is very different from a marriage. I am currently in the former. I have been in other committed and monogamous relationships. I have not taken a vow to make this or others last for life in front of god, the state, family, friends and my community. And of course its easier to tell men the former, but you are not being honest. I think you are going to be wonderfully suprised with how being honest will affect your dating life, because instead of a break up a few months in, time won’t be wasted.
ab68
I respect your position, but I don’t quite get it. Couples who wait until marriage to find out whether they are physically compatible are rolling the dice. Big time. It works for some, of course, and good for them. And perhaps physical compatibility isn’t particularly important to some people. But if you see marriage as something more or less permanent, and if you think physical compatibility will be important to your well-being and to the health of your relationship, why would you make a lifelong commitment without having all of the relevant information?
Lyssa
She doesn’t have to see a therapist just because she has values that some people disagree with. She needs to consider her reasoning for those values, and understand that they may limit some choices and opportunities, and understand what that all means and whether that’s worth it to her, which is what she’s doing in writing this. This is not a mental disorder.
anon
hm. since when does everyone who goes to a therapist have a “mental disorder”? i have neither, but i’m pretty sure a lot of people would disagree with that characterization.
anon
Well, the only times people on here recommend therapy are when someone is being abused, is married to someone with a drug addiction, etc.
AnonInfinity
That is so not true. I’ve seen therapy suggested for so many things on here, including milder marital issues than addiction, stress from law school, and on and on.
anonymous
look, whether she goes to a therapist or not is up to her, but …
“consider her reasoning for those values, and understand that they may limit some choices and opportunities, and understand what that all means and whether that’s worth it to her”
… that’s exactly what therapists help people do.
momentsofabsurdity
I don’t think the belief that one shouldn’t have sex before marriage means one needs therapy. I DO think that if the idea of sex (which, after all, is a very fundamental and basic human act) is scary, because it involves the loss of control, and the desire not to have sex right now is rooted in that fear, that’s something worth exploring in therapy. Not at ALL because she has a mental disorder, or because something’s wrong with the belief. But because sex and losing control shouldn’t be that scary, whether its before or after marriage.
Anon
I see a therapist and I don’t have a mental disorder. I know lots of people who see therapists who don’t have mental disorders. If an aspect of your life is keeping you from what you want, that’s a perfect situation to see a therapist who will help you sort out what you need from what you want. She wants to marry a guy who wants Angelina Jolie with a salty sense of humor and won’t get to even see her with her shirt off before she gets married. Now, that combo might be impossible to find. So which part of that is what she needs and which is it that is what she wants.
Kady
Just curious – you’ve been very clear that you intend to wait until marriage. Do you expect the same from the man? (e.g, would it be ok if the man has had sexual experience? What if he has sexual experiences with others while dating you but before you’re married?)
Anon V
I don’t expect the same from a man. However, once he and I were together, if he were to be with someone else because I wasn’t putting out, that would be an automatic dealbreaker. Who he was with before me wouldn’t matter but anyone after me, that would be cheating and I would not be able to look past that.
momentsofabsurdity
AnonV – don’t blame you for that last dealbreaker. Once you’re (honestly) committed and he knows about your principles and accepts them, I would NOT be comfortable with him seeking out other sexual relationships. Either he accepts that you’re waiting, or he doesn’t.
If it were a mutually agreeable solution that’s one thing, but it would not be okay with me, and I don’t blame you that it’s not okay with you.
another v
I’m a couple of years older than you and feel much as you do (including your later comments). I wish I had advice for you – you could consult a therapist, but I didn’t find it that helpful. I have more or less resigned myself to remaining single, because I can’t see myself explaining to any guy that I meet that I’m not up for sleepovers in the first month (or even week!) of dating. I just wanted you to know that you’re not alone in feeling this way. Good luck to you.
Anonymous
No. You can’t.
I completely respect your decision, but you are operating so far outside of the norm, that when coupled with any other selection criteria (does he have a job, are you attracted to him, do you like him, would he be a good father, etc.) you will be unable to find someone.
In fact, you will be SO unable to find someone I almost wonder if you are commitmentphobic and having an unconsciously decided to use this to push all possible partners away. (A suggestion that I find politically / feministly problematic, but psychologically understandable.)
I’d get some therapy, either to help you stay strong in your resolution and suss out better ways to sort through the dating pool (ie therapist as dating coach). Or to get to the bottom of why you are so out of step with your cohort (possible commitmentphobia). Or perhaps to help you figure out if there is a place or group where your concerns are more normal and to move there (if you are in particularly libertine environment, you will be more out of sync). Or y’know, one should go to a therapist when something in your life is causing you great psychic distress or pain.
Also, you should be prepared that the person you marry will likely have slept with women besides you. The only guys I’ve ever met in your age group who are virgins are really screwed up people or deeply deeply religious (sometimes they are both!).
Personally, I’ve only slept with two people (one is my fiance) and I’m kind of sure I was broken up with once because we hadn’t had sex, so I do understand what you are going through. I wouldn’t have sex with anyone who I wasn’t in a long term relationship where the other person didn’t respect me. It’s possible I would have slept with more men, but it didn’t work out that way. But I’ve never felt that marriage was the end-all and be-all of relationships.
Anyway, I wish you luck! I hope you are able to resolve this.
Amelia Bedelia
I disagree.
I don’t think waiting to have sex is “so far outside the norm” that you won’t find anyone.
It just isn’t true.
Anon
Waiting to even make out with ANY clothes removal is really far outside the norm. If the OP is fine with that and is fine with being single if that is what it comes to, that is her decision. But let’s call a spade a spade. This isn’t the norm.
KK
According to some stats I just googled, in 2008, 9% of Americans between 20-29 are virgins, and 4% of those 20-59. I don’t know what it would be if virgins-for-religious-reasons were excluded, but I think it would probably be much lower. And for dating purposes, I do think her reasons matter- especially if she is unwilling to date religious men. Anyways, it is statistically outside the norm and it doesn’t help anyone to pretend it isn’t. That doesn’t mean that she’s some kind of unreasonable freak show, or that bdeing “normal” is better, but it is what it is.
I also love Amelia Bedelia
This 32-year-old, not-especially-religious virgin has been reading this thread with a growing sense that (1) I am a freak and (2) I will never find a man. Thank you, AB, for reassuring me that perhaps this is not the case.
KK
Well here’s a stat that might be more reassuring: According to a 2002 CDC report, there is an 86% probability that a woman will marry by age 40. That’s not too shabby. If you extend it to age 50, I bet it would be 90% or so. And it is likely that many of the 14% unmarried are either homosexual and live somewhere that doesn’t allow them to marry or are not interested in marriage at all.
The fact is, most people who want to marry eventually do, regardless of their various issues (physical/mental/spiritual/otherwise). Odds are very very good that you will too.
Anon
FWIW my religious mother urged me to have sex before marriage. Her best friend waited until marriage and found out on the wedding night that her new husband was impotent. Consider that in deciding whether you want to wait until marriage or rather until you’re in a committed relationship.
Amelia Bedelia
so that’s a reason to abandon what you believe in?
the doctors on here will offer more for this one, but I am pretty sure there are other ways to know a guy is impotent than having sex. if you marry a guy and then “discover” he is impotent – the bigger issue would be the lying part. and that has nothing to do with waiting until you are married to have sex.
and what if you date six months and are crazy about the guy and then decide to have sex before engagement or marriage (which seems to be a standard many women on here have embraced). are you saying if you loved a man, truly loved him enough to marry him, you would dump him just because he was impotent? harsh.
Anon
I am a very sexual person and sex has always been a very important part of my romantic relationships. What you described in your last question is my nightmare. The answer is, yes, I might dump him if we could not find a medical/therapeutic solution. A life of celibacy would just make me very miserable. This I know about myself and would never want to put someone I loved through the nightmare of resentment that such a relationship would produce.
Anon
OP- it’s good to evaluate your beliefs to make sure that’s what you really want, but don’t ever feel like you need to compromise them to find a man. I’m 24 and a virgin, as is my best friend and my 26-year-old sister, and we’ve all had long-term relationships with understanding men. It’s harder, sure, but it’s possible. Being up-front and clear about the reason and the boundaries is very important.
Anon
And none of us is very religious.
Anon V
Thank you for being so candid with me about my question. I would like to say thank you to those of you who didn’t judge me or tell me I need therapy, that was appreciated. And for further clarification, I am not the survivor of a sexual assault and had a great childhood. Also, everyone is a control freak to some extent. We all have things that freak us out, for some people it’s spiders or elevators, for me it’s having sex with more than one man.
This whole thread has made me realize that who I am and what I believe in is not something that will be widely accepted or respected. Why is it so hard for people to believe that a woman could be smart, witty, and attractive without having sex. I’m not saying I haven’t wanted to, I have. But at the end of the day, I won’t do something I’m not 100% comfortable with and that’s okay.
I won’t give up looking for the one and will be very upfront with my views on no sex before marriage from here out. Honesty is very important for relationships and I can’t expect it from him if I’m not willing to be honest myself. It’s just very disheartening that most of your responses were that I need therapy or that I just need to get it over with and have sex already.
Again, those of you who shared similar experiences and words of encouragement, they mean a lot to me and I thank you, truly.
Oneanon
I don’t think most of the response were that you need therapy or that you need to get it over with and have sex already. Some – yes, but not the majority.
I think most people were in agreement that, if your stance is not-until-marriage, then you need to come clean with that exact statement whenever the conversation comes up. You don’t need to tell him on your first date that you are saving yourself, but you can’t tell him that you’re waiting for a committed relationship when you know full well that you mean marriage. Not cool.
Ultimately, I think you are disheartened because your primary question was “can I expect a man to stay in a relationship with me if I refuse to have sex with him?” and the overwhelming response was “Probably not.” It might not have been what you wanted to hear, but no one on this forum has a horse in this race, so I can’t see that you are getting anything other than the plain truth.
That said, I do hope you find who/what you are looking for.
Anon
What is wrong with the idea of therapy? Seriously? Anyone who doesn’t think they need therapy, probably needs therapy. It may take awhile to find the right therapist for you. But I don’t know anyone who can’t benefit from a good therapist relationship. Why be all judgey about therapy when you don’t want to be judged?
Anon
Agree! I understand why she is feeling defensive. I would be too. But telling someone to consider therapy is not an insult by any means.
KK
I don’t think most people would suggest therapy solely because you want to wait until marriage despite not being religious. But you also said that you have never been in a serious relationship. That suggests that there might be a fear of intimacy or commitment that runs deeper than just sex- your virginity shouldn’t have held you back from dating when you were younger (ie when its not uncommon for people to be virgins and intend to stay that way until marriage) Have you always felt this way about sex? I’m not saying something is “wrong” with you, just that there might be something else holding you back from long term relationships. Or there might not be- kind of like when you go to the doctor for a spot on your arm, it might be cancer or hormones or nothing at all, just a spot. But it doesn’t hurt to have it checked out all you have to lose is the time it takes for the appointment.
KK
Gah, submitted too soon. Stupid phone. Meant to also address the more practical/non-psych side of your dating question- are you open to dating religious men or men from other, more conservative cultures? You’d have to find a guy who stuck close enough to his upbringing to be conservative about sex, but not close enough to want to marry someone from the same background. I think those people are out there. More generally, I do think there are guys out there who would be ok with waiting, but not many of them. Have you tried online dating, where you can state in your profile that you’re waiting til marriage? That way no awkward conversation necessary.
Amelia Badelia, I think I love you
KK said “But you also said that you have never been in a serious relationship. That suggests that there might be a fear of intimacy or commitment that runs deeper than just sex”
This comment resonates for me: it was the emotional side of things I needed to address. I didn’t date at all until my late 20s despite being bright, sociable, not unnattractive, adventurous, etc., and I got so fed up with it I eventually found a therapist to help me figure out what was holding me back, since I hadn’t got it worked through by myself – I’m still working on it… Accepting the risk and vulnerability of emotional intimacy is certainly a factor. And it’s easy to get into the habit of avoiding the risk, without realising that’s what you’re doing.
And to whoever was dismissive of being scared of sex I’d like to point out that *any* new experience and unknown territory is scary to some degree, but especially so when it’s both highly symbolic and closely tied to emotional vulnerability. This runs counter to the SATC culture, but I think is nonetheless how many women may feel about sex (and other levels of physical intimacy).
On another note, the ‘giving’ of one’s virginity to one’s husband is often more about a representation of chosing to give one’s intimacy – both physical and emotional – fully and completely to just one other, and relates to a view of relationship that may simply be very different to your own.
another v
I was also quite disheartened by this thread and understand why you would be as well – especially if you originally came here seeking reassurance! Although you seem averse to therapy, I would suggest that you not rule it out completely – and not because I think anything is wrong with you! I think therapy might be a safer space for you to air out these kinds of concerns (assuming that you are bothered or feel that they are holding you back somehow). As I said above, I don’t feel like therapy totally “worked” for me, but it was somewhat helpful to talk to someone (i.e., the therapist) who wasn’t judgmental. Again, good luck.
Anne Shirley
Are you telling them you are waiting for committed monogamy and then when you get there insisting On marriage? Because that’s lying, and a betrayal, and unlikely to work.
Anne Shirley
Don’t know why this posted so late in the game, sorry.
Jas
Although I’m not at all in the same situation, and I can’t think of anyone else I know who did that for non-religious reasons, I think it can be done. I do know two women who reserved sex until marriage for religious reasons but married non-religious men (who both converted). It seems to me if non-religious men will do it for religious women, you should be able to find one who will do it without the religious reasons.
First off, I think you really do need to be honest with them fairly early that there will be no sex until marriage. If nothing else, you’ll weed out the ones that aren’t willing to wait more than a couple months.
Certainly, if you’re comfortable with it, I’d suggest putting non-PIV sex on the table after a couple months. That way, you’re saving something for your husband, but your boyfriend gets to still have sex.
I’d also suggest maybe trying online dating, if you’re not already. When online dating it seems to be more acceptable to disclose these things upfront, where uninterested men can just click away before there’s any commitment or embarassment. You’ll probably have to weed out all the virginity fetishists, but online dating seems to be helpful for people with all sorts of non-typical sexual practices.
Also, I don’t want anyone to take this the wrong way, but you may have to compromise a bit on other things you’d like from an ideal boyfriend. I’m not saying date a jerk, but in both of the couples I know where they did something like this because, the men aren’t maybe quite as handsome as the women might have dated otherwise, although they’re both very funny and kind.
Alanna of Trebond
Dear Anon V — you are not alone. I am 24, still a virgin, and in a committed relationship (and planning to stay one until marriage). Don’t let people tell you otherwise — you CAN find a great guy who is willing to take your views on sex with the rest of you. (for what it is worth, my current boyfriend did have sex before dating me, but now we’ve been dating for five years).
I do not think you are being at all dishonest here. You do not need to tell people upfront that you don’t want to have sex, mainly because many of the people you might be seeing casually need never get to that stage. You also don’t need to find a super religious guy. Personally, my boyfriend is an athiest, and while he does not agree with my views, he does not want me to change who I am. If someone is the right person, they will be willing to stick it out for you. In the meantime, your own views may change (I know that my friends think I am crazy for not having sex with my boyfriend, even after 5 years).
I actually do think that a lot of the views are offensive here — you won’t be able to find someone *at all* if you limit yourself? Please. Men are better than that. There are many other elements to a successful relationship than just sex. If the guy is truly that wonderful, and interested in you, he won’t see it as a burden to not have sex before marriage. Honestly, “bait and switch” because of the clothing she is wearing? I am extremely surprised by this kind of rhetoric. I do not think that you have control issues or something that needs therapy — you have a moral view that you’ve thought a great deal about, and you do not need to compromise on that view to have a good relationship.
Just a note about culture — it is plainly a dangerous view that sex is so part of the “city” social life that to do with out it is to make someone into a freak show. This kind of view pressures people into making decisions they are not comfortable with, and I think that many of the comments on this board are doing just that.
Oneanon
I think the bait & switch was mostly directed at initially telling the guys that she was waiting to be in a committed relationship in order to “buy time” before telling them that, haha, she really meant until marriage. No judgment if she’s waiting until marriage, but she needs to say that when they first have a conversation, not pretend otherwise.
cfm
Seriously do people not read? The bait and switch, like oneanon repeated, is because she was lying, not because she didnt want to tell them on the very first date, not because of her clothing choices. She was lying, so she was attracting men with differing values.
And of course if you have something you are unwilling to compromise on, you loose out on other people. I would never date a smoker, so that means my dating pool is limited. If its something like no sex before marriage, thats something a lot of people do, so her options her limited by that choice. It doesnt mean she should change it! People are just trying to tell her that if you have a dirty sexual sense of humor, lie about how sexual you are, and then hit them with no sex to marriage, your going to be dating the wrong men.
So
This times 1000000. I really can’t believe women on this board are telling you that you must compromise your beliefs to have a relationship. As long as you’re not conflating “committed and monogamous” with “married” whenever it is you decide to talk to a man about values/intimate things like that, you should not worry. It sounds like you are a fun and awesome person, so take heart. He’s out there for you. I also don’t think your decision not to have sex until marriage narrows the dating pool for you all that much – guys who love you for who you are will respect your beliefs.
Anon
I don’t think anyone is telling her to compromise her beliefs. But she is ruling out a huge portion of the dating population and pretending she isn’t, isn’t fair to her. Choices have consequences. Maybe she’ll meet a great guy. But she is in a more difficult position than someone with a more mainstream outlook on sex. That doesn’t mean she needs to change. But telling her she definitely will have a relationship when she says no fooling around at all is unrealistic.
I wouldn’t date someone who said he was waiting for marriage to have sex. I like sex. Waiting for commitment, though, is very different.
ab68
Yes, “There are many other elements to a successful relationship than just sex,” but for most people (and, I presume, for the original poster), sex is ultimately an important element to a successful relationship. I don’t doubt that she will ultimately be able to find a guy who is willing to wait, but I think there’s a bigger issue OP needs to confront. If OP is a “marriage is forever” person, she needs to realize that she will be entering a forever relationship without knowing whether she and her future husband are physically compatible. It could work out great, but it could also work out horribly. OP seems determined to take her chances, and more power to her, but she also admits she has control issues, too. This doesn’t seem like the kind of gamble that most people with control issues would want to make.
Research, Not Law
Wow, I’m really surprised that so many commenters have suggested that you need to give up on the virginity. While not the norm, I actually don’t think it’s that unusual.
It’s obviously going to shrink your dating pool, but its okay to set whatever limit(s) with which you are comfortable so long as you accept that it’s going to give you a smaller population from which to choose. For that reason, I absolutely agree with the advice to be upfront (and clear) early on and to connect with groups of like-minded people.
Just as some men aren’t looking for a weekend-only or long-distance relationship (or any other limit), some men aren’t looking for a relationship without sex. It doesn’t make them bad people or bad partners, they simply have different expectations. Just like you want respect for your preference, give them the same respect for theirs.
MelD
I don’t think an outrageous number of commenters here are saying she should give up her principles to find a man. That said, there is a really big jump from no sex before marriage to no clothes off at all before marriage. It’s not just a relationship without sex, but it’s a relationship without a level of intimacy that most people really do expect by the time they reach their mid-twenties. Most of the people with views that conservative are married by the time they are in their early 20s.
ER
I didn’t read a lot of the comments on this thread because they were seeming more and more judgmental, but I wanted to toss in that I know that there are guys who will wait even if they’re not religious–I know them personally. But (1) it is going to shrink your pool, and (2) you might have to look in different places, for guys who very independent thinkers, for example. I’d also add that for a man, voluntarily abstaining from sex with the lady he has the hots for takes an enormous amount of self-control. If you find someone who will entertain the idea, you have to appreciate that it’s quite a sacrifice for many men (and women!) and respect it appropriately.
Anon V
Can I ask what you mean by “respect it appropriately”? Since you say you know guys like this personally, I’m curious as to what they would expect in return for such a “sacrifice.” Thank you.
anon
i’m guessing she means not arousing or teasing them (physically or mentally) to the point where it’s unpleasant/uncomfortable, since they’re not actually going to climax with you.
Anne Shirley
For a woman, voluntarily abstaining from sex with the man she has the hots for takes an enormous amount of self-control.
Anonymous
My (normal, modern, American) guy waited 13 months for me, asked me to marry him 6 months later, married me 6 months later, and is now my hubby of 3 years and father of our soon-to-be kiddo.
You gotta pick your battles. Can’t have it all but can have a lot. Make your choices. “Waiting” was not a concrete abstract principle for me, and I didn’t use it a threat, promise, or personality facet. I just knew I’d know when I knew, when it was time. And I did, and he was glad.
Stick to the guns that are important for you to stick to, and enjoy life and love.
Bunkster
Reposting from the Coffee Break…
Question for Nordstrom devotees…
The price on “the skirt” has dropped to half off on a number of colors, including the one I bought full price about a month and a half ago. Am I right in remembering that I can actually get the difference in price refunded? And, if so, how do I go about doing that?
cfm
It has to be within two weeks
ANP
I’m finally going to take the plunge now that The Skirt is within my budget range :) Does it run big? Small? Wheeeeee!!! I’m so excited!!!
SF Bay Associate
Big. Size down one or even two sizes if you are slim of hip.
Genny
Unless you are buying it in Petite – then buy your normal size.
Anonymous
Which one is “the” skirt? There are so many variations on Halogen pencil skirts on the Nordstrom website that I’m never sure.
Possibly a Stupid Question
But I see it all the time on here. What is “the Skirt”? I have gone so far as to search around Nordstrom’s website to see if I can find a skirt that fits all of the descriptions I’ve read about this skirt in the last few weeks, to no avail. I think I missed the original post(s) and am late to the party. Help, please!! :)
MelD
It is the Halogen Seamed Pencil Skirt, full price at $68.
Possibly a Stupid Question
Thank you thank you!!
Ann
It does not have to be within two weeks. If you bought online, you can contact their customer service with your order number and get a credit for the difference. If you bought in the store, it is less convenient. You have to contact the customer service department of the store, and they may make you take the skirt to the store to get the price adjustment, but they should still be able to look you up without a receipt. This is why I only buy online from Nordstrom’s, but once per week I search for the item numbers of all my purchases and snap up any price reductions.
Bunkster
Excellent. Thanks. I did buy online. And while I want to do this for my skirt now, what I really want is to be able to do this for the one I bought as a Christmas gift for my sister-in-law if that color ever goes on sale (berry cordial).
Bunkster
Oops. One more quick question. When you contact them, can you do it online as well? Or should I call them?
Ann
You can do either. You can call them, or online chat or email or whatever. Just be sure to provide the order number.
Bunkster
Nordstrom rocks! They just took care of it via Live Chat. If only the camel were available in my size, I’d use my refund to buy it.
MaggieLizer
I’ve done price adjustments via their online chat system, which is super quick and convenient for me. I’m not sure if you can get a price adjustment for something you bought more than 30 days ago, but it’s worth a try. Could you please let us know what they say? Good luck and TIA!
MaggieLizer
Whoops, sorry, didn’t see your comment before I posted, Bunkster. I love Nordie’s so, so much.
MissJackson
I freakin’ love live chat for this exact reason.
cfm
Their official policy is within two weeks, so I guess you may be able to skirt (ha) the policy
http://shop.nordstrom.com/c/pricing-policy
Ann
I was not even aware of the policy. Their customer service has always given me the price adjustment so long as they are still selling the item in the size and color I purchased (and even sometimes if they are still selling the item in any size).
MissJackson
I’m such a rule follower that I’ve never tried this. Something that I bought nearly 2 months ago is on sale and still available in my size, but I feel a little bit sheepish about asking for a price reduction when I’m well aware of the rules. Am I being crazy?
Bunkster
@Miss Jackson, I kind of feel the same way, but I’d read on this site that it can be done so I figured why not. And now Nordstrom has my loyalty. I just raved about it on this site and to my friends and family.
Also, I decided to spend my refund on this item from the anniversary sale: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/guinevere-stripe-enamel-cuff/3196637?origin=keywordsearch&resultback=0. I’m buying it in red to match my red skirt.
Ann
Bunkster, that bracelet is a great find. The ivory color would look terrific in spring or summer. I’m tempted to buy it. Winter has hardly started and I’m already looking forward to spring!
mamabear
@Bunkster, Oh man that enamel bracelet is hitting me where I live. I love enamel jewelry. Lucky you!
Canadian
I had a price change done 3 weeks after purchasing. All I did was go on the website and do their online “chat” with a representative- I gave them my order number, and they refunded me the difference. Amazing. When will Nordstrom come to Canada?!?
Nancy P
I love this color, and think it looks great on me (I have green-ish eyes), but I never know what color shoes to wear with it. I have nude-for-me pumps (thank you Corporette for convincing me of the necessity), but what other colors? I think black is too dark, and brown makes me feel like I’m a stylish Robin Hood.
AnonInfinity
Dark purple? Bronze?
Ellie
Caramel or cognac boots would be beautiful
MaggieLizer
I miss Ru. AnonInfinity’s and Ellie’s suggestions sound great, though. I just got this dress and was wondering the same thing.
Nonny
Mustard, or a light, slightly orangey brown.
Cat
Gray – especially in suede.
Selia
Very pretty color – not sure how the collar would be on me…could be a little much, but would certainly be worth trying on!
anon for this
Ok, I have what seems to be an offer dinner coming and I have a some questions:
1) what to wear! I have a 3/4 sleeve black dinner/social suit that I love, but I wore to the dinner interview with them and don’t want to repeat it (I doubt they’ll remember!) I have another non-basic interview suit that I may wear, but it has long sleeves and I hate eating with long sleeve jackets. i’m sure the men will take their jackets off, so if I wear an appropriate top maybe I’ll be fine, but most my under suit shirts are sleeveless shells. I also have a 3/4 sleeve nice non basic black blazer that I could wear with a pencil skirt, pants, or sheath. let me know what you guys think!
2) nail polish, i’m currently wearing russian navy and plan to change it. Do I hafta do nude/light pink, or can I wear a plum or deep red?
3) salary negotiation. It’s a small firm, so I don’t think salary is locked. If the offer is less than I want, I plan to ask for me. If, on the rare chance they offer me a good number, should I still negotiate? FWIW it’s a male dominated practice area, no female partners at the firm. My dad (who’s a lawyer and litigates a lot) says I have to negotiate no matter what bc if I don’t do it for myself how do they know I’m gonna do it for their clients, and that the firm will expect me to negotiate.
I think that’s all for now! And for those fresh graduate corporettes just know that there is hope! I’ve been looking for a year!
ER
I don’t have much experience with small firms (and I think many of the women on this board are in biglaw), but I wouldn’t assume that men will take their jackets off to eat. Personally, I would leave my jacket on during an offer dinner.
Again, in biglaw, the suit separates and the russian navy nails wouldn’t work, but I don’t know about small law firm etiquette.
It never hurts to ask, even though in this market you’re coming from a position of weakness (unless you have two offers). You also are going to work with these people for a while. That’s why it’s a much different tone than negotiating a settlement on behalf of a client, and I don’t think the comparison is apt.
interview nail polish
Update: got a callback after wearing my OPI Hawaiian Orchid to the interview, thanks for all your help!
anon
congratulations!
Alanna of Trebond
Congrats!!
Andrea @ Imwaytoobusy
That’s a bold shade of green! You can never go wrong with a well-placed ruffle.
Kelly
Anyone been to Moab, UT and can give some insight of Arches National Park vs Canyonlands National Park for hiking and/or mountain biking?
Anonymous
They’re right next to each other, so you don’t have to pick one. Canyonlands isn’t really mountainous; it’s full of slot canyons. I’m not a mountain biker, so I’m not sure how it works, but there are some trails in Arches that I think would be good for biking and there are some that are steep and mostly over rock where I don’t think biking is allowed. But like I said, the two parks are right next to each other, so you can hang out in both. Moab is a great town and a really fun place to vacation. Make sure you do the Delicate Arch hike at sunset – it’s amazing.
Kelly
Oh really? I’ll probably only have one whole day in Moab though, can I fit them both in in one day? I’ve been out there before as kid, but the last time I was there I was about 11 so I don’t remember a lot of the details like where things are in relation to each other!
Anonymous
Probably you can’t do both in one day, assuming you want to actually get out and hike as opposed to just looking at scenery. Since you don’t mention wanting to climb, I would go to Arches. Canyonlands is good for climbing in the slot canyons, if that interests you, but overall Arches is better for hiking and biking. Arches is probably my favorite national park, and that’s saying a lot.
CW
I have been to both, and they’re great. Arches is great for hiking – they have a lot of day hikes. My husband and I easily did two in one day (albeit one was very early in the morning – sunrise at Delicate Arch). Arches is basically right outside of Moab, so it’s easy to get to/from.
For Canyonlands, the three sections are fairly far apart. Island in the Sky is very easy to get to from Moab, but I viewed it as more of a “driving” section (like Yellowstone). It’s gorgeous and easily reachable from Moab/Arches, so if you’re short on time and want to see it, I highly recommend it. I also went to the Needles district as well, but it was about a 1.5-2 hour drive from Moab. We went on a short hike (maybe ~ 3 miles) here, because we arrived too late in the day to do the one we wanted (~10 miles).
For mountain biking, you might want to check out Dead Horse State Park (easily reachable from Moab). I don’t know the rules on mountain biking in the area – there was a lot of cryptobiotic soil, and you weren’t supposed to walk on it.
Moab/Arches/Canyonlands are gorgeous, you’ll have a great time! And now I’m jealously thinking about your trip.
Kelly
Thank you all! I’m saving all your comments. I totally remember not being allowed to step on the cryptobiotic crust (as my dad called it) when I was kid, and almost thought I or him was making that word up, so I’m glad you affirmed my memory!
Kanye East
You can also just do a driving loop through Arches if you want to fit both into one day. Delicate Arch and the other big attractions are either visible from the road, or a short walk from the road.
There are so many good hikes and rides in and around Moab though, you don’t even need to stress about hitting all the national parks.
Equity's Darling
Love the colour of the dress, not a fan of the ruffle. I like ruffles, but not that ruffle. I also agree with the suggestion regarding a different belt.
Okay, what is the verdict on ponte knit items?
Are they okay for work? Because they are super comfy, and if I can get away with wearing a lot of ponte, I totally will.
I’m wearing a ponte dress today, and I feel like I’m doing something somewhat sneaky, even though another associate has the same dress in a different colour. It’s just so comfortable, which is what makes me think it can’t be regular workwear…but that is also what makes me love it. I’m struggling with the ponte.
I’d love to hear what everyone thinks about ponte.
I’d also love a Corporette (hint hint Kat) post about different fabrics and work appropriateness…like a cotton tee under a suit? Is that okay? Sometimes? Or does it have to be a silk blend? I’m confused about fabrics. (I don’t know if there has been one already…but still)
found a peanut
I would wear a ponte dress or skirt to work, but it would have to be a heavy-weight knit, which also helps reduce the cling factor. And if it’s a skirt, it should have a zipper or something – ponte pull-on it probably no good.
Equity's Darling
Oh yes, I have a zipper on this dress, and I don’t have any skirts, because well…I’ve been on the fence about ponte.
Bianca
I have a Theory ponte suit jacket that I absolutely love and get compliments on. I have a pair of Ann Taylor ponte pants that I wouldn’t wear to work because they get stretched out/aren’t think enough. I think I would try some heavier weight ponte skirts/pants.
Sydney Bristow
I live my ponte pencil skirt! It has distinct seams that appear to give it structure, but it is beyond comfortable. I wear it without hesitation.
anon prof
I love me some ponte. And how. The Eileen Fisher ponte skirts I have are very thick but pull on, no zipper. Love the fact that I don’t have to wear a slip with them. I cannot rave enough about them and think they look formal enough for non-suit days.
I too would love a post about appropriate fabrics. It’s so hard to find polished short sleeved tops to wear under jackets. The choices seem to boil down to lovely sleeveless silks or short-sleeved cotton t-shirts, neither of which I like with a suit.
a.
I’m currently wearing a ponte knit dress, so (obviously) I think it’s okay :) The fabric is a heavy weight and the skirt is a-line, so there’s no cling to worry about. And if it’s a conservative, appropriate cut, I doubt that anyone’s going to demand to see the fabric content.
non
I know Lands End (not Canvas) is doing a big push on various ponte items – skirts, dresses, pants. If you need a source to consider, that it. I think that if the items cover the necessary Bits, and the cut and style are otherwise professional looking, then don’t get hung up on fabric content. Comfortable doesn’t have to be in conflict with professional.
Nonny
Well, when you think about it, the Skirt is Practically Ponte, so if everyone is wearing the Skirt to work, what’s really the diff?
Anonymous
Ponte can be quite structured and I think it’s good for work attire. My favorite business dress is ponte.
I also like to wear a plain, unembellished tee under a suit. I think the key is that it needs to be fitted and have a simple neckline – a crewneck or anything that looks like a regular old t-shirt won’t work.
zora
if wearing ponte to work is wrong, i dont want to be right…..
a nonny miss
threadjack to share an awkward moment from the office:
The director of my department just handed off maternity clothes to an assistant. The maternity clothes are from the early 80s and were prefaced with a warning that some of them were stained.
AnonInfinity
Hahahah! I can just imagine the assistant’s face!
LMo
Report back on the Naturalizer wedges featured here recently:
I love them. I have long, wide feet and it is hard to find shoes that don’t make it look like my foot is bubbling over. Got these in the wide and my feet are oh so happy and comfy. The shoes are super cute, with an appropriate amount of toe cleavage (haters can hate) and great looking leather.
Yayyy Corporette! Also my wallet says thanks to whoever posted the discount codes in that post.
Bunkster
I think I posted the discount. They didn’t work for me. I’m not sure if I need to go up a size (which they were out of) or if they were just too narrow. I’m sending mine back.
CW
I also bought the Naturalizer wedges – they’re working for me as well! I love them. I also bought the Collette heels in elephant (gray suede).
V
I love this, especially the color.
Threadjack for opinions on nude heels – after ordering just about every pair I could find in hopes of getting a pair that matches my skin tone, are comfortable enough to walk in and are well made, I’ve narrowed it to two (from about two dozen – seriously, it was a shoe parade in my living room this weekend). But, my skin tone is right between the two shades. I’m not a fan of self tanner (or sun tanning for that matter), so my legs are the same color all year.
So wise Corporettes – do you recommend going a shade darker or a shade lighter than your skin tone for nude heels? Does a lighter veer into little old church lady territory? Thanks!
(Sorry if this turns into a repeat comment – my original is stuck in moderation, probably because of the links to the actual shoes)
Kelly
I’d go slightly darker, especially if you get tan in the summer, and I just think slightly darker would look better than slightly lighter. I’m also on the hunt for nude for me shoes! I have one 4-5 year old pair that is peep toe and wedge heel, so I can’t wear them everywhere!
non
Go for the cheaper pair. Or the cuter pair. Or the pair you like more. I don’t think it will make a difference. The idea of a nude heel is to visually extend the length of the leg by not having a jarring change of color. As long as the shoe is close, either one will be fine.
anon prof
Can you post a link to the 2 finalists? I need nude shoes and am overwhelmed looking.
V
My links ended up in moderation, but it was the Corso Como “del” in beige and the Prada patent leather platform pumps in camel. I also really liked the loeffler Randall “irina” but I wanted patent leather, and these were a tad higher than I wanted. I’m semi tempted to wait for the jimmy choo Gilbert to come out in patent leather in January, since I have peep toe kitten heels that i love in the same patent leather. Too many options.
L
Threadjack to say I have hit a milestone in my legal career.
I finally get to correspond directly with in house counsel instead of going through the partner I work under! Turns out, all it means is I have many more bosses. New associates, be careful what you wish for!
Autumn
Corporettes, any advice on how to reach out to a partner that you are interested in working with? I am a first/soon to be second year associate at a big law firm. Is a short email expressing my interest and asking for a meeting the way to go?
Bianca
sometimes a knock on the door and a casual conversation can be better. maybe (s)he has some projects you can work on right away.
Cat
I agree on the in-person drop-by (it’s also harder to ignore than an email), but would add to check with the partner’s assistant first and let them know that you wanted to introduce yourself and see if they had anything you could assist with. They’ll know whether it’s a good time (or day, or week) to stop in for a chat.
yesh
I just sent an email to a partner in another office last week expressing interest in work (teams often have lawyers from multiple offices)… and didn’t receive a response. Oh well.
Anon
Hi!
I am doing my residency, and would like to go for a PhD later – in 5 years time. At the moment my mentors are encouraging me to register for a clinically based MSc with my old university, suggesting I could upgrade that later.
I would much rather get a PhD from another place, and am concerned if an MSc (by research) now would not help my eventual plan. Thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
TIA
M
Anonymous
I suggest reposting this on the coffee break thread later today!
Homestar
From someone who knows a ton of academics and doctors:
Why are you waiting on the Ph.D.? It takes so long to get one that waiting 5 years to start seems odd. But if you are waiting then the M.Sc. from your old university may not help much. If you go somewhere else for the Ph.D. you would probably need to take all the classes again as well as start your thesis from scratch. (You might some ideas from the M.Sc., though.)
Unless the M.Sc. is useful for some other reason, you should skip it (my 2 cents). Have you spent much time out of school? If not, you are going to get more mileage from networking and gaining experience than from the M.Sc. (the one exception is if you are set on being an academic, in which case pile on the degrees).
Finally, if you don’t want to be in academia, then take anything your academic mentors say with a grain of salt and cultivate mentors from outside of your educational institution to get a different perspective. The real world operates much differently than the ivory tower.
LadyEnginerd
I think that you need to think about what, exactly, would you want out of a PhD that you can’t get with an MD alone? You probably faced this decision in the past – why did you go to medical school instead of a PhD in the first place? A PhD is a long haul (5+ years; often longer). If you can get the work you would like with an MD + masters (and think hard about whether you’d want to do a clinical-based masters or a more benchwork-based masters).
I’m sorry, but I can’t recommend spending 10+ years in grad school without getting the sense that you have a burning desire to have one of the only a handful of jobs that require both, and that you have fully explored any alternatives to get to those jobs without the PhD. After all, you already earned one doctorate (the MD)! Is there any way you can you do the research you would like with an MD and maybe a masters?
AnonOne
What is it you want from a PhD? What is the specific focus you are loojing for? A Masters degree is not usually going to get you much, especially if you already have an MD. Without knowing what youa re looking to do, it’s difficult to provide solid advice, but have you considered a MPH or MBA (if you are going into the business side).
There isn’t all that much you can do professionally with a PhD that you can’t with the MD and the MD is typically more highly regarded (says the bitter PhD).
anabag
I bought this dress at Macy’s a couple of weeks ago in teal instead of emerald green. It is very comfortable, nice length (I’m tall), drapes well. The neckline is a bit low, but the collar has a small hook & eye designed to make it drape like a cowl. I wore it that way, with a scarf, and felt very Kate Middleton.