Sometimes all you want is a simple pair of pants, and today I’m liking these menswear inspired pants from Lafayette 148 New York. I like the lack of cuffs and the lack of front pockets, as well as the multitude of colors and sizes (regulars, petites) available. They’re unhemmed, but Nordstrom offers free hemming at no charge. Limited sizes and colors (such as granite) are on sale for $118; the rest are full price at $198. Lafayette 148 New York ‘Menswear’ Full Leg Trousers Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail [email protected] with “TPS” in the subject line. (L-2)This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support!
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Workwear sales of note for 2.7.23:
- Nordstrom – Dresses, sweaters, boots, and more, up to 60% off! (Kat’s note: I made a massive order a few days ago personally; lots of major markdowns with lucky sizes.)
- Ann Taylor – Up to 60% off sale styles; $50 off full-price jackets, outerwear & shoes with code
- Athleta – Sale up to 70% off
- Banana Republic Factory – 40% off everything plus extra 15% off purchase
- Brooks Brothers – End of season sale, up to 70% off
- Everlane – Up to 70% off
- Hugo Boss – Final reductions: Up to 50% off
- J.Crew – Extra 50% off select sale styles.
- J.Crew Factory – 40% off the vacation shop; 50% off sweaters & sweatshirts
- Talbots – End of Season Clearance: Extra 60% off markdowns
Some of our latest posts here at Corporette…
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
- Can we please talk about whether you’re using hormone replacement (HRT) for perimenopause or menopause?
- Let’s talk about our favorite rom-com movies…
- What style shoes are you all wearing with midi length/knee length skirts and dresses these days to work in a business casual office?
- How should I go gray? I’m 42.
- Are salon-brand shampoo and conditioner that much better?
- Anyone here NOT end up with the “love of their life” and live to tell the tale?
- What should I bring with me on a six-week business trip?
- If you travel for work, how often can you get away with wearing the same basic suit on the same trip?
- Can you live life “as carefree and joyfully as you did in 2019 before the pandemic”?
- What positive habits have you added to your life?
- Should I marry a man who is older than me by 17 years? (I’m 35, he’s 52.)
- I dream of having a non-desk job…
- Should I cut my childcare down to 12 hours a month if I work from home?
- Any specific recs for a CBD for sleep?
Linda
I bought a pair of these, but have to warn you, that there is NOT a lot of give in the seat area. I made the mistake of buying my normal size even though I have gained 10 lbs, thinking I would lose the weight because of the summer, but I wore them last week and bent down to pick up some papers that had fallen. The stitching in the seat gave way, and I wound up with a split right in the rear end that was visible even after I put my jacket on. I stayed in my office as best I could for the rest of the day, and got the pants re-sewn at the dry cleaners over the weekend. Just make sure you get double stitching in the seat, especially if youre like me with a little too much back there. I fully intend to lose that over the summer, but wow, how embarrassing was that!
Anonymous
YIKES! Thanks for the warning!
SF Bay Associate
Yikes! I bet Nordstrom will exchange for a different size for you if you want. If it happens again (which of course it won’t!), Nordstrom will also repair them for free.
C2
I have a fairly flat stomach and an average-sized chest, but strap these seemingly classic and innocuous pants on me, and I am a torsoless spare-tire-carryin’ monster. The waistline just isn’t for me.
Diana Barry
Hahaha! Me too! Something about the way Nordstrom photos are just doesn’t work for me.
AIMS
I think it’s hard to wear pants like this, at least for me — the higher waist and lack of any visual detail makes them tricky to pull off.
Fiona
I literally laughed out loud at that one! It’s SO TRUE! I can’t wear pants with this cut either – there is something about the high waist and the lack of front pockets that just makes me look dumpy.
cbackson
For me, it’s a height thing. High-waisted pants make me look even more smurf-like.
Bk foette
I was just going to comment on the high rise of these — glad I am not the only one!
Bonnie
Agreed. High-waisted pants are almost as bad as those that zip on the side.
Nice Girl, No Corner Office
I’m jackin’ this thread right away, because I need some serious sense knocked into my head! Corporettes, please make me stop being silly!
Current situation: Despite really high acheivment in law school, I only managed to land a sort-of a job in my home city. The market is pretty much dead; I have good connections and get tons of people saying that I have their recommendation and support, but it never leads to anything. I work with one other attorney in a start up, and there’s just not enough work or money. I’m jumping around trying to take everything, appointments, work I never thought that I would do, etc., but I’m still not working nearly the way that I want to, and I’m making next to nothing.
So, I applied for some other jobs. Well, I got a hit, but it’s in another city. Now, there’s nothing really wrong or even unfamiliar with that city; I grew up nearby and went to LS there, my parents live nearby. It’s similar in size and culture to my present city. The firm seems nice; small, established, doing the sort of work that I think that I would enjoy. I’ve interviewed twice and, when I spoke to them yesterday, they said that they are working on a formal offer.
So why can’t I be happy about it? I’ve always dreamed of being successful and working really hard. I’ve been in tears more than once about my current situation. But I love this city that I’m in now. I love my house, I know my way around, I know most attorneys and judges pretty well, know the city’s quirks, etc. I moved out of the other city and here after high school very deliberately, and fought going back for LS immensely. The thought of moving away kills me.
Right now, all I can think of is all of the things that need to be done to move (the house needs a lot of work, packing, trying to sell in the depressed market, renting an apartment, finding new everything, from grocery store to doctors). I’ve sunk a lot of time into getting to know people and I’ve made great connections- I don’t want to start over, even in a city where I have a head start. Plus, I have cases that I’ve been invested in- even though they aren’t making me much money, I hate the idea of not seeing them through. And I know that my partner is depending on me; the thought of telling him I’m leaving makes me sick to my stomach. I know that I sought this out, but all that I can think about right now is to hope that the offer stinks so I don’t have to take it.
My husband thinks I’m crazy, and is gung ho to move. *I* think I’m crazy. This is silly; I can do so much more there. I’ve not read NGDGTCO, but I’m sure that my concerns about the connections I’ve made and how much leaving is going to impact others is basically everything it goes against. I’ve been trying here for 2 years+, and it’s not getting me anywhere; there’s no good reason to not make the change. But I don’t want to!
Sally
Can you think of the move as temporary? Something along the lines of, I will move for three (or whatever the number) years and reevaluate at that time? Personally, knowing we could reevaluate after a set number of years would really help me with the transition, even if after those years I decided to stay put.
BKDC
I moved from a city I loved to a city that feels far too southern and suburban to me. I made the move because it was a big jump up career-wise, but I’m trying to view this as a temporary solution. Using the opportunity to pay off some of my loans and get some terrific experience that I can leverage into a job in my city of choice. Hopefully, the economy will turn around soon. I’m not looking forward to mosquito season down here.
Alex
You have to think of it as temporary and good for you. Remember that – good for you. It’s a tough situation, but you are only doing what will make you better in the long run. A great house is great, but it’s only a house. You can always find a better one (selling in a down market is scary and tough, though, I’ll give you that). Sally has it right. Just think of it as doing what you have to do now, not forever.
Lady bug
Don’t forget. You can always rent your house out so that if in a year you want to come back, it is still there. That is what I am doing now – We are almost into our third year of doing it.
MelD
I went through something similar in my hometown. The options were really limited to either the types of jobs you mention or really stressful government jobs with long hours and no advancement potential. I took a job in a new (much smaller) city because the job duties interested me and there seemed to be a lot of advancement potential.
I can’t say I love the city by any means, but I do like the job and I think there may be opportunities in the future to move to other offices in areas closer to my hometown. I do not regret my move at all, even though I did not know anyone here when I moved. I am trying to get involved in activities to get to know the town and meet new people and it’s becoming easier.
Eponine
Not to out you, but are you a regular poster whose name starts with an L, posting under an anon moniker?
I ask only because if you are that poster I have different advice for you than I would otherwise, based on other comments of yours that I’ve read. If you are that poster, the gist of my advice is that although you’re struggling now, you essentially own your own firm, and making it as an independent businesswoman is tough but can be incredibly rewarding. Now that you’ve established yourself in your current city, you’re just getting to the brink of making it, and if your true ambition is to be a successful solo practitioner, it would be disappointing to give that up right now.
E
That’s what I was thinking too.
Nice Girl, No Corner Office
Eponine, you are very insightful. That said, I’ve never had the ambition to become a successful solo practitioner (absolutely love and admire the idea, but don’t think it fits me well). Not sure that I’m on the brink of making it, though. Sometimes it feels like I might be, but other times, it feels like I’m going backwards if anything. I do really, really, really hate the idea of giving up the connections and establishments that I have, though. That’s definitely one of the things that is making this so difficult.
Eponine
Well, even if your current job doesn’t fulfill your ambitions, that doesn’t mean that the new job is the right one for you. If you can make it financially with your current work and your husband is happy in your current city and with his current job, you shouldn’t take the new job just because it pays better and is more stable. Just because you have a new opportunity doesn’t mean it’s the right opportunity. If your ambition is to practice at a firm in your current city, it’s better to stay where you are (if that’s financially feasible) and keep building that network.
I’ve turned down jobs that were enormously desirable on paper, because it wasn’t the right time or situation for me. It’s a hard decision to make, but you’ll feel peaceful if you know you’ve made the right one. As my uncle says – “don’t stop at the first car in the lot.”
As for being on the brink of making it – the connections and networks you’re building and the expertise you’re gaining in the cases being referred to you now are the basis for a successful practice. But it might be 3 or 5 years before you have a steady income and your own office.
Anonymous
I think this is good advice. You should listen to your gut. If you feel dismayed at the idea of moving, it’s a sign that it’s not the right move for you.
Kady
I’m going to have to play devil’s advocate on this one. I left city I love for bigger city better opportunity in 2003. Have been looking to get back to city I love ever since. Life (and the economy) seems to have other plans. Yes, my career is probably more “on track” than if I had stayed, but I feel depressed almost daily when I realize that I am leading a life very different than the one I wanted. All that great experience? Less important than the fact that many of my contacts in city I love have either (1) themselves left, (2) changed their jobs so are no longer good networking contacts, or (3) gone cold.
I don’t think this is a NGDGTCO question. This seems a deeper question of what you want overall out of life.
somewherecold
I agree that this might not be a NGDGTCO issue (although I haven’t read it, either). If you’re worried about leaving clients and connections behind, maybe it’s because you genuinely enjoy the work and the potential at your current job.
I’ve been really interested to read a lot of your (OP’s) posts here. I have a lot of respect for people who try to make it solo. I’m currently clerking, and there are a fair number of recent law grads in my area who are solo practitioners. It’s something that I’m considering in the future, because we think we want to return to the area (and have plans to temporarily move away after my clerkship).
Reader
I’m a lawyer. First of all, I had to look up your “NGDGTCO.” Lawyers generally spell out initalisms on first reference.
Maybe your gut is telling you something. I assume the other city is in the same state. If it isn’t, I would think very carefully about moving. I would also make sure that the practice is sufficiently similar to what you want to do in the future in your hometown.
For the nonlawyers out there: Contacts, connections, and an understanding of the legal customs of an area are probably more important in the field of law than other fields. It’s not like say, journalism, where it does help to be established for some beats, but it’s understood that a reporter new to the area will spend a lot of time developing sources and learning the lay of the land. There’s are some things that you can research online as a lawyer, but not everything is written down.
AnonInfinity
“I’m a lawyer. First of all, I had to look up your “NGDGTCO.” Lawyers generally spell out initalisms on first reference.”
That is a very commonly used acronym on this website. No need to be upset.
Female In Charge!
This! :-)
Plink
It is a commonly used acronym on this website, but it is very rarely explained until another newbie pops up asking what it means. Googling it mostly leads back here in posts where people use it but don’t explain it. Commonly used isn’t necessarily commonly understood.
somewherecold
I’m pretty sure Nice Girl, No Corner Office is thinking very carefully about moving.
C2
I’m a lawyer too, and I still really struggle with the defined terms section of my posts on fashion blogs. I’m working on it, and in the mean time I try to cut others some slack too, such as when they misspell “initialism” in a randomly snarky line in a blog. post.
ATC
Heh heh heh…
anonymous
It sounds to me like maybe you are resistant to the idea of change – it’s easier to stay where you are. I can’t tell you what’s best for you, but I can tell you that many years ago, after I was very well established in a city, I moved for my husband’s job. It was hard for many reasons, including giving up my comfort with the court system, knowing the judges, etc. I can’t say that I’ve replicated everything I used to have, and certainly my life is different than it would have been if I had stayed. I can also tell you that it was worth it to move, and I now have colleagues and connections in two cities, and have had opportunities here that I never would have had in my prior city (and I’ve also missed opportunities I would have had there). Bottom line is that you and your husband need to figure out what you want in the long run. Short-term transaction costs, like the hassles of moving, are just that – short-term.
Happy/Sad
My BarBri materials came today. I’m happy that it means I’m almost done. Unfortunately, I imagine the box giving me the skunk eye, saying, “Your summer and early fall are ruined!!!” while laughing maniacally. I’m going to put it in the closet, but a dark cloud has been cast over the rest of my semester.
At a crossroad
Studying for the bar was the most low key summer in my recent memory. I went to class in the mornings, and sat on my back porch in a bikini with a martini and flashcards in the afternoons. It’s not that bad! Cheer up!
Alex
I had a similar summer to At a crossroad. It was kinda fun. I only can wish for another summer like that!
anon
Dit.to Bar-bri in the morning, pool in the afternoon, coffeehouse in the eve. Studying all the time, in various loungey locations…
Reader
I thought it was an extremely unpleasant summer. Of course I was taking arguably the toughest bar in the U.S. I went to a top law school; many people consider it to be the very top. Because there were so many bright people there the professors didn’t feel they had to teach real law with any great care. As a result, there were always a few people who failed the bar each year.
Fortunately I wasn’t one of them. But what a stressful six weeks!
K
It is a very stressful summer but looking back you will wish you still had the luxury of telling everything and everyone else not to bother you while you studied for the bar. Much like At a crossroad, I often stood in the pool with my Barbri book up on the concrete in the afternoons. I also watched a lot of Law and Order and “studied” by trying to point out all the mistakes (I still remember yelling “It’s not a dying declaration unless SHE thinks she is dying” much to the chagrin of my non-law school room mate :)). You can do it!
At a crossroad
Haha! CSI Miami was my drug of choice.
Diana Barry
Yes!! I did this too. L+O was required evening viewing for me. :)
A note – if you have any obsessive tendencies wrt studying and/or exercise, please be careful. I worked out 2 hrs a day during bar prep – burning off all the nervous energy, etc. – and ended up getting an injury, getting too lean/skinny and getting right to the brink of an eating disorder (I definitely had disordered eating and even purged twice). I also studied the rest of the time – barbri class plus 4 hrs studying in the afternoon. I was a nervous wreck and definitely don’t recommend going to that extreme.
AnonInfinity
I am truly concerned that this will be me. I exercise a lot anyway, and I’m already starting to build up a lot nervous energy just thinking about the studying.
What do you think you could have done differently to keep those impulses in check?
Diana Barry
I think I should have taken WALKS instead of going on hour-long runs or elliptical intervals. Hour-long walks would have been much better.
Just be careful, take at LEAST one day off a week from exercise, and allow yourself to do things other than (1) studying, (2) exercising and (3) counting calories. I wasn’t doing anything else besides those 3 things, and that’s what pushed it over the edge. As a side note, I was also long distance with my BF (now husband) during that time, so I didn’t have anyone to hang out with besides my also-constantly-studying roommate.
Eponine
Make a schedule and stick to it. On your schedule, include 8 hours of sleep, an hour break each for preparing and eating lunch and dinner, and two fun activities per week.
JM
I do this. When I get very nervous, my obsessive tendency to exercise goes to the extreme. I would run 2 hours a day, study, go the the gym, study, eat some yogurt, etc. I do end up getting injured. This is what I do – First, I create some sort of loose plan (eg. run 40 miles a week). Then, I write down the mileage/exercise I do every week and if it approaches the number on the plan, I stop. Instead, I take walks around the block, I go to the grocery store, run an errand, go to the mall instead of shopping online, look at plants at the hardware store, basically whatever I can do to get out of the house and move a little. Sometimes, I use exercise to try to escape from stresses in life, but it’s not always the solution. I am studying for the bar exam this summer too, and I hope I’ll be able to keep my level of exercise in check. I hope this helps.
M in CA
I did a half-hour of walking/jogging in the morning, and a half-hour of yoga at night before bed. I did the BarBri class in the morning and followed their recommended study schedule in the afternoon/evening. My TV show of choice was General Hospital — plenty of wrong law there, too! :)
I also ate mostly the same things every day, at around the same time every day. Not for calorie-counting purposes, but because I have a pretty sensitive, shall we say, “system” and didn’t need any more stress-related stomach aches.
Routine was key, including scheduling time off for relaxing. For me, I got weekly massages from a massage-therapist friend who came to my house. For others it was mani/pedis, movies, etc.
SF Bay Associate
I also yelled at L&O – I love that we all did this!
Take some of that nervous energy and switch off between aerobics and something like yoga or pilates, where the whole point is to concentrate on your breathing and making calm, controlled movements. I bet tai chi would work too. I found “restorative yoga” classes the most helpful – basically it’s gentle stretching and then reclined poses with pillow and other body supports for total comfort (i.e. naptime).
Scully
Me too! L&O is great for Fourth and Fifth Amendment violations and evidence. Judge Judy is good for contracts and torts :)
found a peanut
I did this too!
Dr. Cox
And I yell at medical shows and anything involving psych stuff. Do you suppose contractors/interior decorators yell at HGTV?
Ann-on
I’m in the white collar end of the construction industry, and yes, we laugh at DIY shows.
Decor Cutie
YES!
s-p-s
Don’t worry, you can still make time for exercise, dinners with friends, errands, and relaxation – I even went to my brother’s wedding, which called for a few days of travel. It’s a marathon, not an exhausting sprint, and as long as you follow the course of study, you’ll be just fine.
LG
I too loved my summer studing for the bar. It was a great opportunity to spend time with my law school friends. We had class in the morning, went out to lunch together, and spent the final post-BarBri weeks studying on our own where people came up with some of the funniest things I have heard in my life to break the tension. Enjoy this time – once work starts, you will really miss it.
Happy/Sad
Thanks for the encouraging words, everyone! At this point, I’m not too concerned with the amount of work or the prospect of failing. Most everyone I’ve talked to has indicated that pretty much everyone who puts in the work and does not freak out on test day will pass. I am just not looking forward to the constant stress and anxiety surrounding the whole experience. Maybe it will be better once I graduate and actually get started; at least then I will feel like I am actually doing something and not just dreading it.
BarfBri
I’m also about to begin the dreaded bar exam study. I have my materials but still haven’t decided on whether I should do the in-class sessions, or online only. The class sessions in my town are an hour and a half away by bus (womp womp) and there’s only one or two live lectures. I live in a neighborhood with several coffee shops and two public libraries. I also have access to my law school’s satellite campus library, which is a short train ride away. I’m pretty good about making myself start programs and follow through with them, but I’m still undecided. A part of me really thinks that I’d benefit from going to the class every day, but at the same time, the thought of sacrificing three hours of study time for the bus is incredibly unappetizing. Suggestions?
BarfBri
I use the word “dreaded” lightly here – like Happy/Sad, everyone I know who’s taken the test has said that as long as you do the program, study every day, and don’t freak out, it’ll be OK. I know it’ll be worth it, but I’m not excited about wasting away inside all summer!
K
@BarfBri and everyone else getting ready for the bar — like a poster said above — this really is one of the last times that you can tell everyone to leave you alone to let you do your thing (can you tell I’m an introvert?) … Just work bar prep like a job — class in morning, study in afternoon, and L&O in the evening. Honestly, I enjoyed my BarBri summer far more than I enjoyed law school. It will all be fine. :)
And BarfBri, love your name! Too funny!
Passed!
I have taken (and passed) two bars – Virginia and California. For both, I bought the “IPod” barbri classes. For the first bar (California), I did my best to stay on the daily schedule and listen to lectures in the morning and then take time off before studying at night. I didn’t keep to it militantly, though. Some days I didn’t use the lecture, and then the next day I would double up. If you are regimented enough to stick to a real schedule, there is no need to attend the “live” lectures. I think the live classes are more for accountability than anything.
For the second bar, yeah, I was not so good. I listened to MAYBE half of the online classes and focused instead on working TONS of old tests. I still passed. it is fine.
the best thing I did was take the PMBR review. those books are WAY better than barbri.
JAS1
Speaking of Bar Prep, I am looking into buying a new comfy chair for my desk at home (after long consideration I decided against a live class).
Any suggestions for affordable, comfy desk chairs, or what features to look for? I am short and tend to get lower back pain sitting in the dining chair that currently serves as my desk chair. I am willing to spend up to $200 for the perfect item.
JAS1
Also – whoa! I just checked the model number of the chair I use at my clinic office in school, thinking that I really like this chair and would maybe buy one – it retails for $600 to $800! See http://www.csnstores.com/Steelcase-4821410-X-SCA1098.html.
Kitty
I’m also taking a second bar this summer — California. I am pretty nervous for it because (1) I know the CA bar reputation and (2) unlike my first bar, I am working full-time (law firm full-time, no less) and will only be able to take about 3 weeks prior to the test off to study full time. I am actively looking for reassurance that this will be enough, as long as I’m able to get a reasonable amount done before that (I started studying about three weeks ago, and have been able to put in about 15-20 hours a week on top of work, though I’m sure that will vary).
meme
You can do it! I only studied for the Cal bar for 3 weeks and passed just fine (last minute decision to take it). I would say don’t waste your time going to lectures (listen on ipod at quick speed) and just study the outlines of the lectures and do practice tests. I studied about 12 hours per day because I was really worried about passing, but it sounds like you have a head start and you should be fine. Good luck!
anon
a tip for the folks who prefer Barbri online v. “live”… you don’ t have to buy the ipod lecture. You can stream the video to your laptop and have it record the audio (while you’re doing something else), then transfer the audio file to your ipod. There is a way (although I forget it, CTRL + somthing???) to speed up the rate at which the video plays on your laptop–maybe 20% faster, so it’s still easy to listen to. Then when you put the audio file on your ipod, you can speed it up by another 15% or so. Anyway, when it’s all done, you can cut almost a third of the time off of each lecture by just listening to it on the ipod. And of course never share the audio files you record with anyone or barbri will hunt you down!
AnonInfinity
This.is.genius.
somewherecold
So the classes would be 3 hours round trip by bus? I would definitely not be going to those.
I did a self-study program (MicroMash). My boyfriend and I had just moved into a new apartment together, we were both studying, and we got through it. I went to Pieper’s free MPRE class, and that was enough to tell me that I did not want to spend every day leading up to the bar in a room with people who were stressed about it. I think studying on my own helped keep me sane, and I didn’t have to deal with anyone scolding me for taking time off (we moved to a new city in mid-June, which was stressful enough, and we took breaks when we needed them to get outside, go to the pool, get ice cream, etc.). Note–I don’t know if the scolding actually goes down at BarBri classes, that’s just what I imagine it’s like.
S0 glad I don't have to study for the bar
Sign up for the classes but do some of them online. Last summer the program allowed you go to class and also watch the same class online later (no extra charge) (it wasn’t an either/or proposition). I went to some classes and other times I stayed at home and slept in (I am a night owl studier). I also watched the commercial paper lecture once live and once at home – it really helped. Just know that the first couple of lectures get delayed in getting posted but it didn’t really hurt my studying at all.
P.S. – I HATED studying for the bar though part of that could be because my three year relationship with my ex was going down the toilet as I was studying. Talk about stressful – he dumped me a week after the bar
Bonnie
Can you use the time on the bus to study?
BarfBri
sadly, I don’t think so. A lot of people in my city use public transit, and the bus in the morning is so crowded that I end up standing most of the time. Same in the evening. I think home study will be the easiest, but I think I’ll register for the live class so I’ll have the option of attending on occasion.
C2
I had a similar commute time (that was likewise unusable for studying) when I did Bar/Bri, and I found that listening to something fun and mindless made the experience a lot less painful. I actually used that time to listen to almost all of the Harry Potter audiobooks, which was a great distraction and perfectly suited the brain moosh I experienced shuttling between lectures and practice MBEs.
jo
I was very regimented and did everything BarBri told me to do. I passed and I didn’t think it was a difficult exam (I took CA by the way). I had a lot of freinds who claimed to do everything BarBri told them to do, but absolutely did not, and didn’t have the same luck. It takes a lot of time, but it’s not hard, and if you stay relaxed your brain will absorb all the info it needs.
For me, part of staying relaxed was definitely going out on the weekends. I’m not talking about partying up the town, but going to dinner and movie on Friday with my BF, taking Saturday afternoon by the pool without my books, and spending all day on the Fourth of July outside, drinking and enjoying my freinds.
I think if you keep with the program, you’ll see there is time built in to enjoy yourself. And you definitely should!
EC
A couple people told me that they attended BarBri classes but didn’t really ramp up studying until after July 4 – I took that as permission to enjoy the first month of my summer. It worked out fine for me.
Also remember – this is one of the few tests where all you have to do is pass. You don’t get a gold star for doing the best, you don’t make more money if you do better than everyone else; all you do is waste time and stress out. Your best efforts are probably more than enough, so no need to go to superhuman levels.
downtownist
Studying for the bar was awesome! Went to class in the mornings (with best friends from law school), had lunch with friends, spent the day studying, dinner/nights out with friends… I actually remember it as a pretty good time.
Fiona
I hear you. I was laid off as a first year associate from a law firm in a city that I absolutely loved. I ended up taking a job in New York because I had to. I DID NOT want to move, even though I had spent time in New York and liked it just fine and had friends there. But I was so disheartened that even though I’d worked really hard and done really well my entire life, I couldn’t get a damn job in the city I wanted to live in. It makes complete sense that you want to live where you want to live. That’s not irrational.
In my case, I ended up living in New York for two years, getting some Biglaw experience, and then getting outta there and moving back to the city that I love. This move doesn’t have to be a one-way street. You might have to take the hit to improve your career for a couple of years, but you can always move back or do something else entirely in a couple of years.
Hang in there though. I know what you’re going through. =\
Fiona
Oops, that was in reply to Nice Girl, No Corner Office.
EC
Just curious – what makes these “menswear”? I don’t think I’ve ever seen men’s pants without pockets, without belt loops (seriously?), and with such a tight fit in the hips and butt. Also, when was the last time a man bought pants with “elastane”?
MM
I assumed it was the material, but good call on the elastane …
BTW, although I agree that men’s pants would always have belt loops, I’m a huge fan of pants without personally. Because I never tuck in my shirts, the loops serve no purpose but to create unsightly lumps under my shirts. I’m always excited to find pants with no belt loops. So I think that design choice makes perfect sense. :)
EC
But…what do you do when you need to wear a belt to keep your pants up?
Anon
If you need to wear a belt to keep your pants up, you should probably get a smaller size.
Eponine
I wear a different pair of pants that fits. I’ve never heard of women’s pants that were supposed to be kept up with a belt.
LTG
But for those of us with junk in the trunk a belt is the only way to wear pants that fit in the waist and the hip.
Hourglass
Find a good tailor. I buy clothes that fit in the hip and then have the waist taken in (usually I’m a size 8 waist and size 14 hip, so even belts don’t really help).
LTG
A good tailor does not exist up here in the land of fleece and rubber boots. I have had too many things ruined by truly horrid tailoring. I prefer to just wear a belt if the waist is only an inch or so too big.
Tailor
You get the waist taken in. It’s a cheap operation and then you don’t have to have bulges in your waistbands.
E
Agree! And while sometimes pockets can gape annoyingly, I really don’t see why not having pockets is considered a plus.
somewherecold
Yeah, when I read the “no pockets, no cuffs,” those were not positive points in my book.
MelD
I always thought it refered to the construction allowing certain types of alterations to be done fairly easily, but I may be wrong.
Alex
I don’t know about these, but I long for pants with no pockets. Pockets bulge and pinch and generally mess up an otherwise clean line. Who needs them?
Anonymous
You can have them sewn shut.
Argie
I need them to put things in.
soulfusion
I hate when I have absolutely no pockets – not all pockets gape.
Hollis
Back pockets – even fake ones – break up the large amount of fabric that stretches over my rear. I need them.
question for Moms
threadjack.
If you are a super-mom and your associates were to purchase a present for your milestone birthday, would you want something you could enjoy on your own (i.e. spa day) or something you could enjoy with your kids (i.e. backyard game set). We are debating what to get as a group gift. I’m pushing the individual gift idea, but I’m not a mom.
At a crossroad
Individual gift. Supermom may love hanging out with her kids, but she may not want her primary identity at work to be “mom.” And as a working mom, I would LOVE something I could enjoy by myself! The only break from my offspring I get is being at work!
Anonymom
Either would be wonderful but if it’s something to enjoy on her own, make sure you have a sense of whether she has the childcare or time to enable her to take advantage of something like that. E.g., you could pick a place near work. I have a gift certificate for a pedicure that’s been lying around for a while because I haven’t had the time to spare (but will soon!).
Anonymous
individual gift for sure — but if you go the spa route, id try spa finder for exactly this reason — sometimes close to work is good, but sometimes its not (I have 150 bucks of unsued spa gift cert close to work b/c that is actually not the most convenient)
RR
Individual gift. I’d guess Supermom wants nothing more in the world than a couple hours to herself!
Diana Barry
Individual gift!!! Or better yet, gift certificate to a super nice restaurant that she and her hubby (assuming there is one) can go to WITHOUT KIDS. :D
ATC
Individual. Super-mom probably already got her kids everything they need/want, and would likely enjoy something for herself.
Anon for this one
Ditto the individual gift. The spa is a great idea.
*Formerly* Preggo Angie
Just a quick aside – I think it’s a good thing I’m going back to work next week, because the infomercials are starting to make pajama jeans look good to me.
CW
But you can sleep in them!
RR
I have sooooo been there. It’s possible that I watched the entire series of Reba while at home on maternity leave.
LC
Ha! This made me giggle :)
At a crossroad
Ha! That’s why my number one recommendation to first time preggo ladies facing maternity leave is Netflix. New baby = lots of time stuck on the couch, and daytime TV will make your IQ drop.
EC MD
I watched the first two seasons of Friday Night Lights (which I highly recommend, despite not being from Texas and not really caring about football) on the couch or in the rocking chair, nursing late in the night.
b23
LOVE FNL!!!! Best show ever, and totally underappreciated (although not by critics, who loved it). I’m so sad it’s going off the air.
Anon
Clearly, pockets are a love em or hate em thing, but personally I can’t stand pants without pockets. I need somewhere to casually put my hands and/or stuff!
Anonforthis
Since this seems to be a threadjacky thread, I’ll join in with a personal question.
When do you know a relationship has run its course?
I’ve been dating the same person since my freshman year of college (i’m 1 year out now). He’s the first person I’ve seriously dated, and is seriously fantastic — handsome, smart, kind, ambitious, all the things I want in a mate. I know he’ll make a fantastic husband if we were to get married, and I do love him.
The problem is, i find myself wondering if we’re still right for each other — we’ve both changed from the people we were when we started dating. I also wonder what it would be like to be with other guys, and at times wish i could act on my crushes. I’ve felt like this once before, at which times we tried to take a break really uncessfully — i was happy with it for a bit, but eventually couldn’t let him go. He also broke up with me once, and I was totally, totally flattened.
He treats me really well and is really great — when I compare him to the jerks my friends are dating, it seems like a no-brainer. Sometimes, though, I just don’t want to be with him, and want to do my own thing… like make out with an attractive acquaintance.
I’m really confused, but don’t want to “break up” (or its relative, “go on a break”), because i feel like I might be throwing away something really great to satisfy my curiosity. Any advice?
Lady bug
I was in your spot once with someone I wasn’t meant to be with adn once with someone I was meant to be with. Somehow, I was able to figure out the difference. The the first, the crushes were more like “this guy is so much better than my boyfriend.” In which case I knew I was with the wrong guy – (ie: he is smarter, more ambitious, more attractive, treats me better.) With the other one (the crushes I had causing doubts before marrying my husband) it was more like, “I’m a hot girl, he’s a hot guy, we are at a bar with friends, if I wasn’t engaged I’d be so on that.” That was just a harmless crush and not worth destroying my otherwise awesome relationship over.
Lady bug
PS: I almost didn’t agree to “go steady” with my now husband because I had come out of a previous long termer and wanted the freedom for flings. After a fling or two I realized they just weren’t as fun as they seemed in my head. Being with someone who cared about me was just so much better than the brief thrill of making out with a stranger at a bar.
Anonforthistoo
I am in a long term relationship, and can relate to your doubts. I have had periods where I questioned whether he was “The One,” whether we were better off just friends, etc.
You say that you both have changed from the people you were when you started dating… that’s completely normal. Time changes people! The question you need to ask yourself about that is whether time has changed you into people that have grown apart and want different things out of life, or whether you have grown together.
I have had a few crushes on guys over the years, but I asked myself why I was so attracted to them. If it was just the interest of something new (rather than how this new person was a better fit for me), I knew that I wasn’t willing to jeopardize everything I had with my SO for that.
If what you’re craving is excitement (rather than a new partner), you can get that with your SO – try new activities (opera, kayaking, hiking, etc.), and (perhaps a little TMI) shake things up in the bedroom.
LTG
Break up with him immediately, then send him my way. ;-)
Seriously, being single is not that great. Often those attractive acquaintances are bad kissers, have commitment issues, and are bad in the sack. Keep the one you’ve got.
Jas
I was in a similar position: I dated my first “real” serious boyfriend from the end of my second year of undergrad to a year afterwards. He was someone I could see marrying, and I worried that breaking up with him just to date around was a bad idea. Eventually, we ended up doing a long distance relationship and both sort of emotionally checked out of the relationship. I broke it off after he did something I should have been upset by (not quite emotional cheating, but close) and I realised I didn’t really care. Now that I have some distance and more experience, I realise that the relationship wasn’t as good as I thought it was, and we’ve both changed so much a relationship wouldn’t work between us anymore.
I would say that it just muddies the water to try and figure out if dating other guys you know would be better. In the end, the relationship will work or fail on its own terms, so I’d try to evaluate it based on whether you feel like it will fulfill you in the long term, or if you’ll always feel a bit restless and boxed in.
ADS
You’re VERY young, and you’ve been dating a VERY long time. I’m not a believer that there is only one right person for everyone – I think there are people who can be right for you if the timing is right for both of you. It sounds to me like your questions are more of the “I’m not sure I’m ready to be permanently partnered” variety, as opposed to “I’m not sure this is the person I want to be permanently partnered with.” If you started dating this person when you were 18 or 19, and you’re 22 or 23 now, it’s perfectly reasonable that you’re not sure.
Ask yourself: do you have a good sense of what you want out of life, long term? Out of a partner, long term? If you don’t have a good sense of those things, then you’re too young to settle down, and you may need to try adult life outside of this relationship for a while to make sure you really know. If you DO have a good sense of those things, then I’ll reassure you that everyone has doubts, and having doubts does not make you a bad person, or mean that the person you’re with isn’t right for you. You SHOULD, however, pay close attention to the types of doubts you’re having. If you’re not sure that this person is really going to be the partner you want long term, then better to find that out now and not in another five years. Don’t stay in the relationship out of fear of being single.
Very best of luck, and let us know how it goes.
Ekaterin Nile
I don’t have any advice, but I do have an anecdote. My younger sister was in a very similar situation–dated the same guy from her freshman year to her senior year of college. He was a fabulous guy, treated her well, the family loved him (and he seemed to love us), and they were physically compatible. She broke up with him to see what else was out there and what she found out was that most of what was out there (for her) was nowhere near as good as what she had with College Boyfriend. Now, thirteen years later, she’s still single, turning 36, and often says “I don’t think I’ll ever find someone who was as good to me as College Boyfriend.” And I often think (but do not say) she probably won’t. It’s particularly sad for her because she has always wanted to marry and have a family and she feels unfulfilled despite her signfiicant accomplishments.
I don’t know if she made the right choice or not. I don’t know what the right choice is for you. But I would carefully consider whether you’re considering a break because you are unhappy with your relationship or to satisfy your curiosity. If it’s to satisfy your curiosity, perhaps think about what it is that you’re trying to find out and whether it’s worth giving up your current boyfriend.
Good luck!
LTG
My god, that is a sad story.
Ann
It is, but I have to say, I have seen that “let me check and see if the grass is greener on the other side” thing backfire on more people than it’s worked out for.
I married young. When I got engaged, I was not at all sure. I had a lot of thoughts about “maybe I should not be settling down, maybe there’s someone out there who’s better.” But I couldn’t imagine letting my then-fiance go. He was sweet, smart, funny, reliable, compassionate, etc. etc. – everything I wanted. Great husband material. I went ahead and married him. Glad I did. 15+ years later and we’re still in love, and I don’t mean I love him, I mean I am still in love with him. He still makes me go all rubbery inside when he looks at me a certain way. I would have thrown away a lot if I had tossed him aside to see if the grass was greener.
A lot of people talk themselves out of happiness. I don’t know what the answer for you is, OP, but I will say – don’t let that happen to you. Don’t talk yourself out of something that could be wonderful, if you take it for what it is and give it your all.
M in CA
I’m not trying to minimize what your sister (and you) are feeling here, but is it possible your sister is idealizing College Boyfriend? If she were my friend, I would tell her that she had good reasons for breaking up with him at the time and she was right to trust those instincts. I would tell her that she made the best decision for her based on the information she had at the time. And I would tell her that life can surprise her sometimes, if she lets it.
Second-guessing long-ago decisions is easy. Letting go of the past is hard, especially when we question our decisions. It sounds like your sister has accomplished a lot and has a lot to be proud of. :)
anon for this
Exactly. Life can surprise you! I was in a similar relationship with a wonderful guy 5 years ago. I had similar doubts as the OP’s. Other guys caught my eye all the time. We broke up amicably, and are still great friends to this day. Since then, I have surprised myself with who I’ve become. That breakup allowed me time to pursue passions and hobbies I never would have considered before. I’m pretty sure my old BF wouldn’t have understood my desire to ride motorcycles, which is something my new BF and I both love. I feel like my old relationship was safe and comforting, but I much prefer who I’ve grown into today.
Anon
Not sure if I’ll get a response but maybe that’s a good thing, my current boyfriend of 4+ years broke up with me a few weeks ago for very similar reasons. Needing to date other people, too young to settle down, etc… He has since been getting more involved with music he hasn’t had time for in a long time, and while I’m glad he’s pursuing these interests it still stings that he felt he couldn’t do those with me. I know it will get easier, and that if he was willing to make this decision we’re not right for each other, but it’s hard now for me to accept that he thought I was in any way holding him back. :/
Ekaterin Nile
Probably too late to reply, but my sister remained friends with College Boyfriend for about 10 years after they broke up. She moved to NYC but they emailed every single day, which didn’t stop until he got married a couple of years ago. So, no, I really don’t think she is idealizing him. I think she continued to know what kind of person he was and the only reason they didn’t get back together is because she moved from the Midwest to NYC and stayed there for 10 years. (Now she’s back in the Midwest.)
Obviously I don’t try to make her feel bad about her choice. When she brings him up, I say the “you made the right decision based on where you were at in your life,” but I honestly don’t know if it’s true.
And in her eyes, her accomplishments–of which I am extremely proud–do not compensate for not having a husband and family. She wants the accomplishments AND the husband/family, which seems totally reasonable to me.
SoCal Gal
I recommend you read the book “Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay” by Mira Kirshenbaum, and work through the questions in each chapter. It starts out with the most clear-cut questions (are you being beaten?) and moves on to murkier and less clear-cut questions and problems. By the time you get to the end I am pretty sure you’ll know what to do, and whatever you choose to do, you’ll know WHY you made that choice and you won’t be second-guessing yourself. Absolutely the most helpful self-help book I have ever read.
SoCal Gal
Just please don’t stay stuck in limbo. It sucks up all your emotional energy and that can end up killing the relationship too. Constantly thinking about leaving without actually doing it is a worse hell than leaving. If you leave, the pain stops eventually.
ATC
I was in your situation at about the same age. I left a sweet, nice, responsible, good guy that I just wasn’t that into anymore… And found sweet, nice, resposible, good guy that I REALLY clicked with and was super attracted to. Now he’s my husband. :) I think you’re a different person at 24 then you are at 19, and may have a better idea of what kind of person matches you. However – it’s still a gamble. There’s only so many nice guys out there. But if you’re already second guessing and day dreaming about other guys now, that doesn’t bode well for your current relationship.
Do make that hard choice soon though; your current nice guy deserves your commitment – or his freedom to move on.
Also Anon
I feel that I’m in a similar situation, but I’m slightly older. I’ve been dating the same person for about 4.5 years, since I was almost 25. We even spent some time apart during that time and made it through (almost 2 years when I was working overseas) and we are remodeling our house together. However, at this point, I’m ready to go back overseas mainly for career reasons and while he is in support of that, I’m not sure it’s the right choice for him, his career or our relationship. The desire to move back is so strong for me that I feel I have to choose between my relationship and this move. But even before the potential to move back came up, I was feeling very in limbo in this relationship. Thanks to all of you for your advice so far and especially to SoCal Girl for the book suggestion!
totes anon
Have you all talked about your future together? Are there definite plans?
I’ve been with someone for years now (not being specific in the interest of keeping my girlfriends who also read this blog from identifying me). He’s talked marriage from the start. But yet, here I am without a ring on my finger. He keeps saying he doesn’t make enough money. He has student loan debt (like me), he has other goals he’s trying to accomplish, etc. I accepted this for awhile. I mean, I have student loan debt, too.. I also am trying to save and ensure that I’m financially independent in the long run. About a month ago, we had a conversation where I told him that I’m entitled to know what the plan is. I mean, I don’t want to know how and precisely when he’s planning on popping the question, but I am entitled to know– is it this year? Next year? When?
[Aside: I just read “He’s Just Not That Into You” a few days ago, and they also point out– if you’ve been in a relationship for awhile, you’re entitled to know what the guy’s plan is. It’s normal and acceptable for you to have goals (marriage/kids/whatever) and to know whether you’re moving toward or away from those goals.]
You know what he told me? “I can’t tell you that.” I asked, “You plan on marrying me, but you can’t give me any idea of when that might be?” And he said yes. So, I’m breaking up with him. I love him, and we click, but if after all those years, he can’t give me *any* kind of answer about when this future he talks about is actually supposed to get here… then it’s not going to happen. As the authors of “He’s Just Not That Into You” say– don’t waste the pretty.
So, where are you guys on future planning? Where is he– action-wise, not just word-wise– on bring that future to fruition?
You’ve been with this guy for a long time, and even if you decide it’s best to leave the relationship, that won’t change that you love him. It’ll hurt like hell, but as you get further away from the relationship, you may realize exactly how right that choice was. At least, that’s what I’m hoping will be the case for me!
Anonagain
Totes anon: you are making the right choice. I’ve been where you are. It’s hard to end a long relationship that you are comfortable in, but it sounds like it’s absolutely the right thing to do here. Best of luck to you!
Ru
I was in an eerily similar situation and I chose to end it as well. As much as I cared for him, such a huge weight was lifted off of me – I didn’t know how much pressure the not knowing where the relationship was going caused me until I decided to end it. It hurts a lot but I feel at peace with myself. Good luck to the both of us =).
A
You could be describing me.
Except I’m 5 years older than you… and now engaged. And still don’t know what the right answer is.
Perhaps try taking a break and seeing if that clarifies things? Having a talk about both of your intentions should also help.
You’re very, very young – if you break up with him you still have a good 10 years in which to find someone else.
Totally Regretting
Don’t do it. I know you will wonder what else is out there and you’ll rationalize to yourself that if you don’t see what’s out there now and you stay with him, you’ll cheat on him at some point or that in 10 years you will wake up and wonder if this is the right person. My college sweetheart was perfect: handsome, sweet, my family loved him and he cared a lot about mine. But I was 23 and wanted to see what else was out there and didn’t want to wake up 5 years later and wonder if I really had the one. Well, I asked for a break. After 6 months, he couldn’t handle the break so I had to just end it. And 7 years later, I woke up and wondered why the hell I ever broke up with him and that it was the stupidest decision I have ever made. Not a day goes by that I don’t regret what I did. Strangely though, if someone told me this when I was 23 I still think I would have made the same decision just because I was young and wanted to explore and I can only look in hindsight what a mistake I made. But I wonder if I had stayed would I still be wondering the same thing. I”m sorry, I’m totally not helpful but I just wanted to let you know that I understand and you’re not alone. Good luck with your decision.
Exit Stage Left
Threadjack, sorry:
A couple weeks ago I asked your advice regarding an exit interview I had to do for a particularly heinous internship I had, and you guys were awesome, as usual. As an update, the “exit interview” was really just 20 minutes of this person berating me and my character, after which I felt completely validated that I had left. Oh, I was also accused of stealing client files, which I found AT the exit interview, on the table underneath a pile of this person’s bank documents. Now this person is calling me up demanding that I go in and find documents on the computer. I saved the documents per instructions but the computer crashed the day after I left, so who knows what happened to the documents. Now this person is insinuating that I “hid” the documents on the computer because they can’t find them. Oh, and this person also threw in how they are also missing bank documents so I have to go over and “turn over” everything to the person. Obviously I didn’t take any bank documents or hide any documents on the computer. And apparently the fact that the house/office looks like a paper mill and a copy machine staged a death-match isn’t the cause of the lost bank documents (riiiight).
I’ve spoken with a couple people who recommended I write an email basically saying, “You continue to berate me for no reason, you have accused me of stealing. You have not apologized for either. I consider our professional relationship to be over as of . Do not call me again.” Have any of you written an email/letter like this? I think if it continues I might, but wanted to get your thoughts on it.
Eponine
I’d just ignore all the emails. You don’t work there anymore and you don’t owe them anything. I’ve responded to attacks like this in the past, and it never helps.
Sorry you have to deal with this – what a bunch of jerks.
Oneanon
I agree that silence is your best course of action.
What is the saying? Never wrestle a pig in the mud – you’ll just get dirty, and the pig likes it.
Take the highest road possible = silence.
CW
“Never wrestle a pig in the mud – you’ll just get dirty, and the pig likes it.”
I have never heard that saying, and it just made me laugh out loud!
MsZ
Adopting this saying – have never heard it before, and it’s perfect!
AnonInfinity
I am LOL’ing at the image of two pigs in suits wrestling.
Exit Stage Left
This is an excellent metaphor for what they are trying to get me to do. I know if I go over there, finding the doc will take about 6 seconds, but I’ll have to listen to yelling and screaming for something more like 15 minutes. Me = loser, Them = getting someone to take out frustration on. I’m also adopting the saying! :-D
TX Attny
Love this saying! The proverb my former boss taught me when dealing with a lunatic client was “never answer a fool according to his folly.” The pig imagery is way better and so true. Let’s face it, Exit Stage Left, you will never say anything that will appease the crazies. I agree that silence is the best policy.
JessC
The first time I heard this saying was during a hearing. Opposing attorneys (one man and one woman) were fighting back in forth about what documents one party could request the other party’s employee to bring to a deposition. Both were excellent litigators and argued their points well. When the male attorney circled back to an issue that they had argued about earlier in the hearing, the female attorney chuckled and said, “There’s an old saying. Don’t mud wrestle with pig because it just gets you dirty and after a while you realize the pig actually likes it. I think you like this! You’re enjoying this aren’t you?”. To which the male attorney responds after a thoughtful pause, “Your honor, I object to her calling me a pig.”
And the whole courtroom cracked up, even the judge.
Accountress
I don’t really have anything helpful to add besides suggesting that you keep track of the times these people contact you, and what (if any) responses you give them. One never knows what clearly a clearly unstable organization will do.
Mostly I wanted to compliment you on your way with words- the paper mill/copy machine statement is fabulous imagery.
Exit Stage Left
Haha, Thanks! :-D
Ann
All you need is the “I consider our professional relationship to be terminated as of (DATE) and will not respond to any future requests for assistance” part. Do not say anything else. It won’t make a difference, it may be used against you, and the letter will probably not get this person to stop contacting you. The real key is, really do not respond to any future requests or contact or anything. All you will do by continuing to engage is continue to feed the crazy. Detach and terminate contact. Good luck.
Exit Stage Left
Thanks all for your advice. My current path is radio silence; I even re-programmed the numbers in my phone as “Do Not Answer – Heinous $&##($(#*#@(*#$#*&.” And I’ve also documented all the things that happened during the internship and after I left. Seriously – every irrational thing I could think of someone doing, that would make most people think, “Oh, but who does that, really,” has happened. So I wouldn’t put anything past them.
Radio silence + covering of butt = done and done. :-D
somewherecold
Not sure what kind of phone you have, but I have an app on my Droid that blocks certain callers, because I was tired of seeing “Crazy so-and-so” pop up on the caller ID.
underemployed law chick
Have you thought about setting up a filter so that you no longer gets emails from person X? Then you will have no idea if they are trying to contact you and you won’t have to deal with it. Just a suggestion
In Need of a Mentor
Threadjack: I didn’t know who else to ask, so I was hoping you ladies could provide some assistance and mentoring!
I’m a mid-level associate who started at a big firm and then moved to a mid-sized regional firm to get better experience (i.e., much better client contact, more responsibility, broader skills gained) in a niche and technical area of the law. However, for a variety of reasons, I don’t want to stay at my firm and am looking to try to go in-house within the next 1-2 years.
1) Can I go in-house from a regional, mid-size firm, or do I have to go back to Big Law? Will my great experience in a highly specific and technical area of law outweigh the reputation of my firm, particularly since I already worked for Big Law?
2) Would it be appropriate to contact one of my in house clients who I have a good working relationship with to see if he would be able to offer some career advice in terms of how to best move in house, or is that too awkward or potentially damaging of the relationship between the client and my firm?
3) I have two current clients who I would love to go in house with. I keep an eye on their job postings, but they rarely have legal openings. Is there an appropriate way to casually mention to one of these clients that I might be interested should a position ever arise? What if my main contacts at the company are either not lawyers, or lawyers who may not be senior enough to have a say in hiring?
Thanks so much for any advice!
Omega
I am in-house. I would say that you don’t need to go back to BigLaw. You have it on the resume and if you go back, you will just look like you don’t know what you want to do – from BigLaw, to mid-Law, back to BigLaw and then in-house?? It will also add more time that you have to do the law firm thing when you would prefer to be done with it. I think contacting your client is perfectly appropriate as long as you trust him (i.e. he won’t mention it to your boss the next time they meet). There are a few associates at my outside firms who I’ve become friendly with and when we hang out for drinks or whatever, their career paths usually come up. I am always happy to give them my thoughts. I also think it is fine to let your clients know that you would love to work for them…even if the contact has no say, he/she is there and probably will be able to give you a heads up if they are looking for a lawyer.
In Need of a Mentor
Thanks so much for the advice, and it’s especially great to hear that I might not have to go back to Big Law.
If all of my in house clients are in different states, do I need to wait to see them in person to bring up any of these conversations? Or is it appropriate to do it casually over the phone (while not billing, of course)?
Omega
I think the phone is fine…I am assuming that you actually have a relationship with these people – that when you call them they aren’t going to wonder why you reached out to them. I obviously don’t have a representative subset, but it seems to me that some associates at our various outside counsel are kinda “all business” – in which case, it would seem odd to me that they reach out to me. My good friend ended up at a firm where an associate used to do some work for me. She told my best friend that she knows me well…I told my friend, I barely know her.
Amelia
Loving all the threadjacks, hoping that mine is not coming too late to the party:
How do you decide the time is right to have a baby? When the financial picture is not perfection, but not ominous either, and when you are truly happy with your SO and your life, but when you can’t come up with a logical reason to TIC, what should you do? I find myself smiling at babies and dreaming of my own family, but I also like to travel and be spontaneous (and let’s be honest) a little bit selfish. I’m not so worried about my career, because career wise this is a perfect time. So when I brought it up to my husband and he smiled and his face lit up and he said “let’s do it.” right after being so overjoyed I immediately became terrified. Is this normal? Is it normal to not want to give up y wadrobe or especially my body to 9 months of pregnancy? Do babies really take that much work, and what if it makes me miserable? I stopped my birth control two days ago and now I’m scared to have sex with my husband. Is 28 too young to have kids? We’ve been married two years and are happy, but none of our friends have kids yet. So many worries, and not cerainty is driving me nuts!
Anonymous
As a 28 year old mother of a six month old baby girl, I can tell you that there is never a “good” time to have a baby. There are always a few reasons why a particular time frame is not ideal. And make no mistake, having a baby is really, *really* tough — particularly if you plan on working afterwards, which I do. Caring for an infant is a 24/7 job, and your life is going to revolve around that for at least a year or two.
Now that being said, my daughter is absolutely the best thing in my entire life times a million. Nothing makes me happier than when I come into her bedroom in the morning and her adorable face just lights up and I get a huge smile. Furthermore, having a baby at a relatively young age makes it a little easier to keep up with the demands, take off the pesky baby weight, etc. You also won’t have so much pressure to have an additional child, if that’s what you’re planning, immediately. So my advice to you is just to relax, see what happens, and know that whatever challenges having a child poses for you (and there will be challenges), you’re going to figure out how to make it work. Regardless of your decision, good luck!!
Diana Barry
It is definitely normal to have those fears! Sometimes I still had them when I was pregnant! LOL. It is a huge change, no question about it. But I knew when I was smiling at all the babies around that it was a ‘good time’ for me too. Good luck!
Also, by the time it finally happens, you will be more ready. :)
Amelia
Thank you to all the kind and wise women who responded to my questions about knowing when to have a baby. Your advice and experience is invaluable.
Anon-ee-mouse!
I agree that there’s no right time to have a baby. And, you never know how long it will take you to actually carry a child to term. I’m 28 and my husband and I have been trying to conceive for two years (we were married young, at 23) through out many complications. The entire process is full of so many emotions, fears, and waiting periods that I’m so glad that we started earlier rather than later. I’m at a good place in my career and I wanted to have a baby early-ish in it so that when I return to work, I can find a pattern that works for my family.
Long story short: If you are excited about it, and your husband is excited about it – go for it! There will always be fears and what-ifs and second-guesses. It’s better to give a shot now (especially when “giving it a shot” is so fun).
Going incognito
This. You can’t really plan to have a child. You may be one of the few lucky people who gets pregnant right away but then it may take years. We’re young but have been trying for 3 years now.
Seattleite
How do you normally respond to change? Is it in your nature to worry and second-guess yourself, or are you normally pretty sanguine and this is an aberration?
Think back to other big decisions in your life. Were you terrified once the decision was made, but once you started *acting* on the decision, things went better?
Think about yourself and the way you process change. If this is a new way of responding for you, I’d absolutely recommend seeing a professional for a few sessions to help you sort it out. At 28, you’ve got time to wait a little longer if what’s going on is that you’re simply not quite ready.
Midwest
Those feelings are totally normal and may not completely disappear, even during pregnancy! I think the answer of “when is the right time?” is different for everyone, depending on your personality and how you handle change. I had many of the same concerns you did. At the end of the day, though, DH & I knew that we really wanted a family. We knew we had enough strength as a couple to make it work. At 28 and 30, we were in a good place financially and career-wise.
Fast-forward 17 months later, and we’re pretty worn out and tired. We’re also crazy about our adorable, funny DS. It’s not always easy to figure out how to balance family, career, marriage, and yourself, which I’ve posted about lately. That said, I don’t think waiting longer would’ve alleviated the stresses bound to come up when raising young children. I can’t imagine how much *good* stuff we would’ve missed out on if we hadn’t taken that leap of faith.
Bottom line — deciding when to have children is as much of an emotional decision as a logical one. If you strongly desire a family and feel 75% ready (which it sounds like you are) — my advice is to go for it. I don’t know if anyone ever feels 100% ready, even if they want a child more than anything in the world.
Amelia
Loving all the threadjacks, hoping that mine is not coming too late to the party:
How do you decide the time is right to have a baby? When the financial picture is not perfection, but not ominous either, and when you are truly happy with your SO and your life, but when you can’t come up with a logical reason to TIC, what should you do? I find myself smiling at babies and dreaming of my own family, but I also like to travel and be spontaneous (and let’s be honest) a little bit selfish. I’m not so worried about my career, because career wise this is a perfect time. So when I brought it up to my husband and he smiled and his face lit up and he said “let’s do it.” right after being so overjoyed I immediately became terrified. Is this normal? Is it normal to not want to give up y wadrobe or especially my body to 9 months of pregnancy? Do babies really take that much work, and what if it makes me miserable? I stopped my birth control two days ago and now I’m scared to have sex with my husband. Is 28 too young to have kids? We’ve been married two years and are happy, but none of our friends have kids yet. So many worries, and no cerainty is driving me nuts!
Former BF Mom
Very few responsible women do not find the prospect of becoming a parent a little scary. In my case I knew with absolute certainty that I wanted to have a child and it was still frightening. That is as it should be. It is a huge responsibility and committment. You do give up a lot and yes – children are a LOT of work, even when they are past the baby stage. You will give up your body (and frankly for more than 9 months; even if you don’t breastfeed it takes a while to recover). More important, you will give up the right to be the most important person in your own life, at least in the short term.
28 is not too young (and I have to laugh – only amongst highly educated, non-Southern women is that a thought). If you want more than one child that is actually a great age to start trying. You will probably be 29 before the baby is born and that leaves you time to have a second if you want before things start getting dicey. I know way too many women who waited until their 30s to start having children and then encountered major problems with conception.
Having said all of that – the time to have a baby is when you want to have a baby. Not when your husband/mother wants and not when your friends start. It is when YOU want to make that committment to be 100% responsible for the safety and happiness of another (completely helpless and dependent) human being. It is when YOU are prepared to give up to a large extent the freedom to come and go when you please and do what you want. The online community can tell you that parenting is wonderful and rewarding and that being scared is normal, but only you can decide if the time is right.
b23
I agree with your post, but I must comment on one thing: “only amongst highly educated, non-Southern women …” I am a 28-year-old, highly- educated Southern woman, and I do not, nor do any of my fellow 28-year-old, highly-educated Southern women friends, have children. Not all Southern women think the same way.
b23
By the way, that isn’t meant to be snippy in the least. I just wanted to point out that some stereotypes are not true.
Former BF Mom
I did not mean to engage in stereotyping (and apologize if it sounded that way). I am myself from the South and when my first child was born (when I was 32) my whole family’s reaction was “finally.” Every other woman in my family had at least one before thirty and sometimes several (and most of them have college degrees).
To clarify my point, my experience is that while a fair number of Southern women wait to marry and have children, there is not the prevalent social attitude I have found in California that someone in their 20s is “too” young to marry and/or have children.
Marie
No answer on the time thing, as we are struggling with this also (though, in my case, the timing is in no way perfect career-wise, I’m just worried about waiting too long into mid-30s and regretting that later). One thing though: you seem to be thinking in terms of babies. Personally, I am not super fond of babies: lots of work, kind of scary, and they can’t do much. But, one thing I’ve learned through close friends having kids over the past few years, is that the baby phase doesn’t last that long, and you don’t have to be really into babies to love your kids and do a great job with them. A close friend of mine also was not particularly into babies in general, and she says it was hard when her daughter was a baby, but ever since she could walk and talk, being a mom has been a blast. Similar to something I hear people say about law school: it doesn’t matter how much you will like law school, that is temporary…what matters is how much you would like being a lawyer. So maybe it would help to think as pregnancy and diaper-changing as the up-front investment for a much longer goal (kids growing into people), instead of thinking whether you want to be pregnant/have a baby.
A
This is really good advice. Thanks.
TT
It sounds like you are pretty ready with a supportive partner and stable lifestyle. You will never feel 100% ready or have perfect timing. Once the baby comes you will adapt.
Yes, your body will be different. And yes, kids will make you cry in frustration especially if you need to balance work. But I don’t know anyone who says it’s not worth it.
My top 3 pluses to being pregnant: 1) You get to eat a lot and not have to suck in your belly. 2) People are really nice to you. 3) I enjoyed having the baby “with me,” like a constant hug.
After the baby comes, you will probably be miserable sometimes. You will be dead tired sometimes. In those times, I typically regret not getting to be the “man,” not having enough energy or time, not having more help. It passes, and I when I look back it wouldn’t trade anything for my kids.
Good luck.
Ann
Oh, boy. I can relate. I was terrified of having children up to the moment I got the second line on the pregnancy test stick and then continued being terrified up to the moment we left for the hospital. It is totally normal to be scared. I was married 7 years by the time my son was born, we had a great marriage and I kept thinking, what am I doing??? Everything is perfect and now it’s all going to change. And it did all change. But now things are more perfect than they were before.
One of my friends said it best, the only “wrong” time to try to have a baby is when it’s way too late. She didn’t start trying until she was 41, and unlike the many happy-ending stories you hear in the media, she never was able to get pregnant. They adopted and it’s fine, but she has regrets about the many years she said “maybe next year” and then they never did anything about it. The sad fact of the matter is that women do run out of years. This is not saying people need to have babies at 18, but it is something to think about. You may not ever feel any more ready than you do right now.
That being said, I have to say, two years is not a long time to be married, unless you were together for a long time before you got married. And having a child is a huge, huge, HUGE change. It completely turns your life upside down, in every way you’ve heard about and some ways you probably have not. For example, I always considered my husband to be the person I am closest to in this world. He was #1 for me, no question. Then my son was born. Things sort of shifted. I would walk through fire for my child. I would walk through broken glass. I would give up my kidney, my liver, my heart, my soul. I would hurt someone if I had to. That is normal but when hubby has been #1, and now he is a distant #2, it’s a new dynamic and it can be hard for people to get used to. I imagine if two people were not in a solidified, mature relationship there’d be major chances for conflict, when a baby comes along.
Since you are not in your late 30s or early 40s, there’s no real hurry. If you still have traveling or volunteering or partying you want to do, do it now. We traveled a lot in the three or four years before I got pregnant and I am so glad we did, because now between college savings and private-school tuition there is not a lot of extra money laying around to go to Barbados. And as for the “do babies really take that much work” question – the answer is an unqualified yes. It is relentless, often thankless work, and endlessly frustrating at times, raising a child. It is also the most satisfying thing I have ever done. What I didn’t understand before my son was born is that yes, it is hard and a lot of work. But my baby is the person I most wanted to spend time with, in the entire world. I still feel that way. The ferocious love you feel for your child overcomes a lot of the negatives of parenting; it almost makes them insignificant. It has enriched my life immeasurably.
Sometimes you have to not think, and just do. If you feel like the pieces are in place and it will be fine, it will be. You will make it work, as you’ve (most likely) made everything else in your life work, up until this point. My mom told me, when my son was a newborn, “no one said it would be easy, they just said it would be worth it.” Trite but true. Go for it. :)
Livia
What a great post. I’m nowhere close to having kids yet, but with Mothers’ Day approaching, this gave me some warm fuzzies.
Midwest
This response is PERFECT.
AN
@Ann: Your words resonate 100%.
Married 9 yrs before we had our son whom I now love FIERCELY (and yes, hubs is #2). Scared throughout and even now, that I am not a good mother/should be doing something more etc.
Never a good time. And you never know what it will be like till it happens to you. Good luck!
anon for this
@Ann — great response. This speaking as someone 25 weeks pregnant who is and was absolutely terrified. Our plan was to start trying when I turned 34 — we figured that gave us 3 months to try to conceive and still hit the “Mom is under 35 at birth” deadline, which seems to be a big worry for the MDs. Got so freaked out in the months leading up to my 34th birthday that I gained 10 pounds and we ultimately just decided to start trying a few months early. By the second month we were pregnant. (We feel incredibly blessed to be so lucky — I know it could have been so much worse.)
But yeah, terrified — if I’m not going to like the grunt work of childrearing, if I’m going to have to fight myself to be a parent instead of a friend to my child, if my relationship with my husband is going to change, and how my career is going to change. Money, college — even making the wrong decision re: cribs is terrifying to me.
An older friend who just had his first child said to me, though, “Whenver the terror overwhelms you, go and watch Teen Mom.” I have (damnit, now I’m addicted) and it does help to some degree. But yes: still terrified.
Anon
I had my first at 26 when I was still in school. To make a long answer short: There is NEVER a right time to have a baby. I like to joke that the only perfect time is when you’re in your 50s – you’ve achieved what you wanted in your career, you’re financially secure, you’re figure is going downhill anyway so you don’t have to worry about your body, your sex life isn’t what it used to be, you have more free time…
Seriously though, I am SO happy that I had my kids young. Yeah, my body isn’t what it used to be but there is no greater joy than the kiddos. I must confess though that I totally changed my mind after we decided to get pregnant. I was planning to go on birth control after 2 weeks of no birth control, but I got pregnant immediately. I was terrified when I saw the two lines. It’s totally natural to be scared!
Anon
One more thing – I have 3 kids and I was scared every single time I found out I was pregnant. My first thought when I got a positive time was “holy sh&t what did I just do!?!?!”
OK, make it 2 more things. Lots of people I know who wait until after 30 have required fertility treatments. after 25 your fertility starts declining. I read an interesting article about this recently in New York mag… http://nymag.com/news/features/69789/
Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler
Not a criticism, just an inquiry raised by observation: Why do people apologize for their threadjacks? I thought this was one purpose of this blog, obtaining advice about issues that regularly plague overachieving chicks?
long-time reader
I remember a while back people were critcized for going off topic and were instructed to comment in open threads. The weekend open threads led to the daily coffee breaks for open discussion. I don’t think it really matters (or that the previous criticism was justified), but I think that’s why people apologize on the non-open threads.
E
It’s become so acceptable here that I don’t think it’s necessary anymore, but in general, internet forums “value” staying on topic within a thread/post. In many similar settings, apologizing in advance is appropriate. Just my take.
C2
As I understand it, some people prefer to save the off-topic stuff for the “coffee break” posts in the afternoon.
MelD
I think it’s so people can scroll past easily if they’re not interested in threadjacks for a particular topic.
2L NYC
I am pretty sure I only read the threadjacks. What would we talk about without them? Maybe on one of those discussion posts like “what to do with your administrative assistant” you can get a lot of discussion, but how much discussion can you get about one particular item of clothing (generally)?
academicsocialite
Happy Administrative Professionals Day!
Curious if anyone else out there had read/have thoughts on this op-ed? I bought this woman’s book (I love retro advice/etiquette books and collect them as a hobby) and am fascinated by the evolution/frustrations of being an admin. Just curious if any of the Corporettes have thoughts on how they work with their admins in light of higher expectations/shrinking budgets…
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/opinion/27peril.html?_r=1
Anonymous
Full disclosure: my mother was a secretary, and a pretty darn great one (not genetic, I can’t type).
There’s still a need for the jobs she did, and the new hires seem to be young women with BAs in something “fluffy” rather than secretarial school. These new hires, according to my mother, do much less work for more money then she ever did. (No comment, just sharing.)
The highest ranking financial admin in my last company posted her resume on her Facebook page — her last job was an exercise instructor and she was posing in a bikini!
Bar related threadjack
Every day reader, first time poster with a threadjack: I recently found out I did not pass the bar. Despite taking two months off of work, studying diligently, and not freaking out during the exam. I can’t blame my situation on being in a state with a very low pass rate or a stressful event in my life that disrupted my studying or occurred near the time of the exam. I apparently just wasn’t prepared enough.
Do any of you have any suggestions about how to approach this the second time around? Both from a studying standpoint and also how to address how demoralizing it feels personally and professionally.
TIA.
TX Attny
I’ve been there and will suggest to you what someone said to me – pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back on the horse. (Easy for her to say! She hadn’t gone to law school.) But actually, she was very wise – that’s what it took.
The first time I took the Bar, though I only saw it in hindsight, I didn’t study enough. The second time, I studied like I studied for my two hardest classes in law school where I was successful and I passed. That’s really the only suggestion I have for passing the second time – study like you studied for your hardest class in law school. Was it making flash cards, preparing an outline from all of the different material or reading and highlighting? Was it all three things? Whatever it was, make a calendar, stick to it and go to work. I think I got caught up in going to BarBri and PMBR without actually doing a ton of individual studying. Though I tried, I quite literally would fall asleep on my books out of sheer exhaustion. Not from doing anything fun or staying out too late – just from not sleeping for 3 years while I worked 30+hours a week and went to school year-round, including summers and short J-terms.
It was hard to publicly fail – I already had a job at a law firm, and all my colleagues knew I failed. It stunk. I can say this, though, several years later that I think it actually built my character a lot more than I imagined it could at the time when I wanted the floor to open up so I could fall in a big hole. Truthfully, it takes some time to get to a point where you can see that you actually survived this, and it didn’t keep you down. As my wisest law prof said our first week of law school, “all I ask is that you get up one more time than you get knocked down. Then you win.”
Also, might I suggest you repost this in the Weekend Open Thread or a more recent thread? I want you to get more feedback, and I’m not sure as many people will read this comment since a couple of new posts have been added.
And truly, my heart goes out to you. If I knew you and if you were in Texas, I’d totally buy you a glass of wine and hug your neck. Hang in there. You can do this!!
Second Chances
First, I think you need to assess where you went wrong. For some people it’s that they did not study enough, but for others it was more that they didn’t study correctly. I think my problem was the latter. Even though I got great practice essay grades the first time around, my scores indicated I had no clue how to write a bar essay. I spent a lot of time reading sample essays to get a feel for the right format to make sure I presented the information in a way that would allow me to maximize the points.
I also had issues with pain management. By the second section, I had back pain so bad that I was almost in tears after an hour sitting in the chair. Obviously that also had some sort of negative impact on my score. The second time around I kept some ibuprofen/aspirin in my car and paid attention to my posture to make sure I minimized any pain. I was able to spend a lot more time reviewing my answers and felt much more confident about my scores.
I actually did the opposite as TX Attny in terms of studying. I whipped myself into a frenzy the first time around, panicked, and had massive anxiety problems on the first test. The second time I studied fewer hours over a longer period of time and felt that it really helped me keep my nerves down. There really isn’t any one study philosophy that is going to work for every bar taker, but you should know from your first time around what does not work for you. Many people end up failing because they are so burnt out and anxious, while others barely studied at all.
From a professional standpoint, it’s not really going to make that much of a difference in your career in the long run. There are plenty of successful attorneys out there who failed the bar. You are probably going to hear some snide remarks from people who feel like only idiots can fail, but don’t pay them any mind! You will be an attorney soon enough.
LadyLawyer
To “threadjack” back to two earlier questions … I’m older than most of the people contributing here, I think. I left a good job and excellent career opportunities after practicing for two and a half years to move from the East Coast city where I lived to a small city on the West Coast. It was not a career move, clearly, but a life move — I knew I’d be happier in the small city despite a significant disparity in job options, pay, etc. Fast forward thirty years (can’t believe it’s that long!) and I have to say, honestly, that I’ve never regretted it. Getting my career off the ground here took longer than I’d hoped, but it got progressively easier after the first two years. I’ve never made the kind of money I’d have made in my former career path, but I love my community, the many friends I’ve made here, the more relaxed lifestyle — in short, I love my life. Reading of my law school classmates’ successes was a bit depressing but only until I thought about what really matters to me — and while I wanted (and want) satisfaction in my work life, I wanted a balanced, full personal life too. And that’s what I’ve had. The job tradeoffs weren’t easy and I do have some regrets, but on balance I am so glad that I made the right decision for my life, all those years ago. What’s right for me isn’t necessarily right for you, but I hope my perspective is helpful.
And on the subject of when to have a baby — the writer who talked about your ferocious love for your child, and how it makes up for all the work and just plain exhaustion, is absolutely right. And over time, the “lost” career time devoted to having and caring for a child or two becomes less and less important as you move along in your career.
It was nearly impossible for me to see the long term perspective when I was looking at it prospectively, and I wish someone had told me these things then so I didn’t worry so much! So I hope this, too, is helpful.