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Baby DC Attorney
Yay Open Thread!
I need help from this very knowledgable community. My question pertains to how to handle a conversation with my mother about her health. My mom is 60 years old and is very overweight. Compounding that issue, she was in a car accident several years ago that injured her ankle, and she chose not to have surgery to help the pain (she said the doctor told her that surgery would not completely fix her ankle. She said the only thing that would really help is if she lost weight). When I was home over the holidays, I noticed that she no longer will walk up stairs, finds it difficult to get off the couch, and has trouble walking generally.
I don’t know what to do to help the situation. I’m scared, given that she is only 60 years old and shouldn’t be having this much difficulty walking yet. I’ve tried offering to buy her subscriptions to weightwatchers and Nutrasystem, but she rejected my offers. I tried to suggest she go back to the doctor about her ankle and she refused. She doesn’t have much money, and lives in a very small town in the midwest where access to specialized care (such as a nutrionist) might be hard to find. (I live across the country from her). I’m willing to try to spend anything I can to help.
I’m very worried about her health. My family has a history of heart attacks, and given her weight, I am scared every time I see an incoming phone call with my mom’s area code that something has happened to her. I know that any conversation I have about this with her will be difficult, as a) she has very low self-esteem, and will take anything I say personally, and b) she will be very defensive.
Given that, I’m wondering if anyone has dealt with a similar situation and has any ideas for how to approach this with my mom so I can be effective.
Pit
Why don’t you take a mother/daughter trip to a fitness/health/weight loss spa?
Ellen
I agree. My mom also had over the years built up a very large tuchas, and I took her to a health club 5 years ago.
She has since lost about 30 lbs (most in her rear) and my dad is VERY pleased at the result.
My DAD does some times kid her that he does not have the same “GRAB Handels”, but he is KIDDING!
Now I have to work to get HIM to get rid of his GUT. UGH! I do not understand men who let themselfes get FAT either. FOOEY!
Anonymous
Frankly, I think your mom needs a new doctor. Prejudice against overweight people by healthcare professionals is a real and serious problem (see, among other places, http://fathealth.wordpress.com/). Where does your mom live? Perhaps readers can recommend a better doctor. If she’s also in DC, I strongly recommend Washington Circle Orthopedic Associates.
J
Ugh – that was me. Don’t know how I ended up anonymous.
Supra
Prejudice by doctors seems like one issue, but not really what the OP was asking about. And, the OP said her mother lives in small town in the midwest, not Washington DC.
Its also entirely possible that excess weight is putting a strain on her ankle. That’s not prejudice.
The issue seems to me like the OP wants her mother to take a more active role in managing her health. She wants her to be motivated to make changes that will make her more healthful, such as a better diet so that she can lose weight and have more options for the ankle problem.
anon
A new doctor might help, but how is the current doctor guilty of prejudice against overweight people? He or she told her that losing weight – e.g. reducing the amount of pressure put on the injured ankle – is necessary to help it heal. that sounds logical to me, and hardly a sign of prejudice.
OP, does she have close friends or relatives or neighbors in town that you can reach out to for help? Getting her involved in a daily habit of small walks with friends, strolling to the park and back, and just spending time a little outdoors, etc. would probably help.
If you have the resources, you might hire a personal chef type of thing. I tried this for my mom for awhile. I never thought something like that would be avail in her town, but lo and behold, there was – a small outfit run by a woman living in town, good at cooking, and interested in making some extra money by cooking for others. She also was very good about accommodating dietary needs, delivered everything in single serving packages, easy to freeze, reheat, etc. Or if she has good friends or neighbors that are good cooks, they might help her to eat better (assuming they have good eating habits themselves).
Once she gets a bit better, you might also encourage her to walk the neighbor’s dog once in awhile and see if she likes it / would be open to adopting a dog, which is a great way to get moving and also might help her self-esteem. Obviously, it would have to be an older, slower dog – not a puppy or something.
Other than that, I think you need to get in the habit of daily/weekly phone calls, monthly or quarterly visits. Don’t pester her, but think of fun healthy things to do together, whether they are strolls to the park or visits to the pool or even just a walk around the garden.
Good luck. It’s very tough dealing with parental health issues.
J
She injured her ankle in a car accident, not from being fat. A doctor who thinks that losing weight will magically solve all your health problems is not a competent doctor.
JessC
(1) For a person who is obese, losing weight will likely solve alot of health problems – high blood pressure, high cholesterol, type 2 diabetes, increased risk of stroke or heart attack. Especially if heart disease/problems runs in her family.
(2) Being overweight puts ALOT of stress on joints. My Dad is very overweight and about the same age as Baby DC Attorney’s mom. He has really bad knees – he’a already had 3 arthroscopies done. It’s partially caused by athletic activities when he was younger, but one of the best things he could do for himself now (other than relenting and getting knee replacements) would be to lose the excess weight. A compromised/weakened joint is going to have a much harder time healing if it’s carrying around more weight than it should be.
anonymous
But who is saying that losing weight will “magically solve all her health problems?” She injured her ankle in a car accident. Ankles support the weight of our bodies. If they are broken/injured, one way to encourage healing is to reduce the amount of weight they have to carry around. That seems like all the doctor is saying.
sadie
But anonymous, losing weight is ONE WAY to encourage healing. It is not the only way. Losing weight is incredibly difficult and keeping it off is even harder (see, e.g., Tara Parker Pope’s article in the New York Times three weeks ago). Given this reality, overweight patients deserve to hear a range of answers to their health concerns that give them a way to be successful. Perhaps the answer is “lose weight, do physical therapy, go on meds, and walk three times a week.” Or “get surgery, where the outcome will be best if you can also lose weight, but will have X value even if you don’t.” But “lose weight,” all by itself, is not good medical advice.
umm
If you had an injured ankle and had to carry a backpack, which do you think woud cause it to hurt worse? A 5 lb backpack or a 40 lb backpack? What is wrong with a doctor suggesting that she lose weight? Heck, my knees were hurting me because of a genetic issue. My doctor suggested (along with many other things) that I always watch my weight to make sure I wasn’t putting any more pressure than needed on my aready “injured” knees.
I think you may be projecting some prior experiences with your doctors on this situation. I’m truly sorry if you’ve had negative experience with doctors (that does suck) but I encourage you to be careful that you don’t discount sound advice just because it includes “lose some weight”.
J
Thanks, sadie, exactly my point.
I’d suggest that the original commenter suggest that her mom look at some fat acceptance blogs and the health at every size movement. Self-esteem goes a long way to improving one’s physical as well as mental/emotional health. And find a new orthopedist to take a look at her ankle.
observer
What an interesting debate. Think we can agree that OP’s mother needs a new doctor, if only because she refuses to go back to this one. The charges of incompetence, or “prejudiced against overweight people” seems a little dramatic particularly if the only criteria for such labels is advising people to lose weight.
Should doctors focus on giving out medical advice, or should they be holistic healers, attuned to your self-esteem needs and personality issues and couching said advice in easier-to-take soundbites? I don’t know the answer to that one, but the constraints of time and money and our crappy healthcare system would seem to play a role in determining what kind of care you will get.
Maybe all the surgery and all the meds and all the PT in the world really won’t help OP’s mother (and therefore wouldn’t be worth the added expense, given limited financial resources) without her first losing some weight. Then again, maybe not. I don’t know. But I find the divergent opinions on this, very interesting.
Anon
I hear what some of the others are saying and it seems like her being overweight could possibly be contributing to the problem, however, I totally agree with you about drs and overweight people. I dont know whether its prejudice or not, but i think drs are often quick to blame problems on ones weight.
My father, who turned 65 yesterday and is also overweight, complained to his dr. over and over again about back pain he was having and his dr told him over and over again that he just needed to lose weight. Well, it turned out the dr. was wrong. My dad had cancer and there was a giant tumor in his back (found by another dr) causing the pain. My dad is in remission (and still overweight, but at this point if he is happy and fat, more power to him), but he might not be had he just chalked up the problem to being overweight.
Anon
Well, I have a close doctor friend and the people generally who won’t help themselves drive him crazy. He went into pediatrics for that very reason- easier to stay empathetic. It is hard to see your own time for him, and taxpayer money, used for unnecessary surgeries on people who smoke, over drink, eat terribly, and/or don’t exercise. Yes, it’s more complicated, and there are other treatments/causes, but folks a lot can be improved by lifestyle. Yes, lifestyle is hard to change for a million reasons sometimes. But also my spouse manages a healthcare program and the numbers show time and time again that the highest cost people are those who make choices not to live healthy lifestyles. Like, a hundred times the average cost of other users, because they get chronic compounding diseases. That is why employers are making us do these awful ‘healthy living’ incentive programs now. They know that if they even sway a few people, it’s a big boon to their bottom line. You may not like this information, but it is very true. And it’s understandable for doctors to be frustrated. He says it is three quarters of his patients.
anon
Thank you for posting this.
Anon
i dont see how this is an appropriate response. it is certainly true that there are many people who wont help themselves, but that is irrelevant to my point (and i believe the above point) that the fact that my dad is overweight had absoltely nothing to do with the giant tumor growing in his back and causing his back pain. the dr didnt do any tests to try to find out what was causing the pain and just blamed it on my father for being overweight. luckily, my father also had a tumor growing in his mouth that was causing tooth pain and his dentist found it, which in turn led to them finidng the tumor in his back.
anon 5:21
to anon 4:28- agree. in no way meant it as a direct response- your father’s situation is totally different and a very good example of when doctors shouldn’t let their emotions/usual patterns impact their treatment. sorry if offended. meant as general response to above comments. and, sorry he had to go through all of that.
Difficult
This is very difficult. My sister and I (early 40s) went through this recently with our mother (early 70s). She is from the mid-west and grew up in the forties and fifties. No one exercised. Everyone ate like crap (red meat, cakes with real butter, creamed spinach every day, creamed corn, one-pot stews filled with fatty meats — I could go on, but it makes this SoCal vegetarian cringe).
Somehow, my sister and I grew up to be avid exercisers (not saying I like it, just that I know it is necessary and that I do it) and very clean eaters. My mom, not so much. And she has the weight and the medical issues to prove it. She also has a MENSA IQ and, as another commentor noted, she knew full well that she was heavy. We pushed. We prodded. We came to her house and made communal healthy meals. We bought her subscriptions to health magazines and clean eating magazines.
For the past few months, she has been going to a Seniors’ gym somewhat regularly and her eating habits have improved slightly. My sister has long had a theory that mom is depressed and doesn’t know and/or want to take care of herself. I am somewhat more optimistic that if she just knew how, she would do it more. Example: she had a cold and didn’t go to the gym or do her walking route for a couple weeks. So the first time she went back to the gym, she did double of everything “because I haven’t been there for a while.” What? Really? If she had grown up reading the health magazines we all did, she would have known not to do that.
So my first idea is to clearly but softly make the education available to her: magazines, videos, nutrition classes etc.
My second idea is to be very clear with her about what you can and cannot (and will and will not) do for her when — not if — she becomes debilitated. I would be very specific and can suggest considering: will you drive her to MD appts? will you stay with her? will you help her find a home nurse? will you pay for her meds? will you pay for her gym? Maybe others have more ideas, but these are the ones that came up with my mom.
My third idea is to insist that she purchase long term care insurance now, while it may still be affordable for her.
Good luck.
Anonymous
I agree with much of this, but…”cakes made with real butter”? What else would a cake be made of (please don’t say margarine, oh God, please don’t say margarine)?
Nonny
Margarine should be outlawed.
Scully
You can use vegetable oils or applesauce as a lower-fat substitute for butter in cakes- especially good with banana or pumpkin breads/cakes.
Anonymous
It always astonishes me when people think that an intelligent person with a high IQ should somehow be immune to bad habits, vices, and addiction. My personal favorite is when people say “you are too smart to smoke.” Phoeey.
Ellie
I consider myself too smart to smoke. At least the first time which gets you hooked. *shrug*
anon
Maybe start small… does she have access to the internet? Maybe send her links to some support groups? I know that my mom started reading online and found the Biggest Loser online community helpful as well as some others. There are a LOT of people with similar experiences online, and geography becomes a moot point. They are generally really encouraging and after a while, your mom may be encouraged to start small couch-based exercises on her own.
Have you looked into DVDs that are couch-based exercises or other less-intensive exercises? Maybe if she had something she could try in the comfort of her own home, in a non-judgmental environment, she might give it a shot.
Also… Weight Watchers and Nutrisystem can be really overwhelming– they are a big commitment. So maybe start smaller… does she like to cook? How about a cookbook with healthier recipes? Does she like to watch TV? Try the DVDs. Does she like to read? How about some inspirational books about people who have gotten healthy?
Just some ideas… Good luck. I know it’s hard to watch from afar as a parent is suffering.
Anon
That Tara Parker Pope article has been discredited by just about everyone. I heard the author on NPR and she sounded ridiculous. The study that she relies on to prove her “theory” has participants eating 500-700 calories per day. It is not shocking that they put on weight after eating that restrictive of a diet.
And, as Tom Ashbrook said (paraphrapsing): Ok. Losing weight is hard. Even if we accept that, we can’t deny that people need to lose weight.
another anon
yes. losing weight can be very hard.
same goes for finding a job, getting out of debt, and putting food on the table every night.
N.
The point of the TPP article was that it’s not just that “losing weight is hard,” but that for the vast majority of people it simply does not work, long term. There’s quite a bit of evidence in the scientific literature to show that the vast majority of people who lose more than 10% of their body weight will regain it in 5 years. There’s a reason why out of the millions who diet there’s only 10,000 or so in the National Weight Loss Control Registry.
Even if you believe that weight loss is going to improve health conditions (as opposed to exercise or dietary changes that don’t change a person’s weight), the evidence shows that we don’t really know how to do it effectively. If there was drug that was only effective for 5% of those who took it (and then only if they exercised for at least an hour a day) and had the potential to harm those who didn’t get benefit from it, would we prescribe it? Definitely not. And yet doctors recommend weight loss all the time.
Anonymous
I lost 35 – 40 lbs (kept off for several years) and never heard of the National Weight Loss Control Registry before now. And now that I know I still won’t enroll. Not staying that losing weight isn’t hard, but the stats for success aren’t 10,000 out of millions either.
N.
Sure, obviously not everyone who has successfully lost weight is in the registry, but my point was that it’s a relatively small number of long term “success stories” compared to the many many people who try (often repeatedly) to lose weight.
sadie
Discredited where? Not being snarky; I genuinely want to know.
tika55
I have been in a similar situation with my mom, although without the injury. With my mom, I never addressed her weight directly. Instead, I raved to her about how great I felt after working with a nutritionist myself and losing about 20 lbs. It took nearly a year, but she eventually found a dietician/trainer in her (smallish TX) town and has been losing weight for the past 6 months or so. Every time we talked, I emphasized how helpful it was to work with someone and how energetic I felt. I think it helped her to realize that working with a dietician is not an admission of being fat or clueless or anything. It’s just a means of structuring your eating. Similarly, I recommend that your mom find a trainer who is knowledgeable enough to work with her condition. A physical therapist might be a good start to help her identify what she can do with her ankle (stationary bike and swimming would probably be good.) She or you can check eatright dot org to search for nutritionists in her area. You might also want to find gyms in her area. The trick will be to motivate her to make the first step, and to give her the tools to make the barriers to entry low. Money wasn’t an issue with my mom, so I’m not sure how you approach that, but hopefully you can figure something out. (Maybe she gets quotes for gym/trainer/nutritionist and then you buy her a membership/certain # of visits as a Christmas/bday/mother’s day/whatever gift.) FWIW, I have also done Nutrisystem and was very worried about the sodium in the meals. My mom also did it and thinks it caused some health issues for her as well. I highly recommend a sustainable nutrition program with “real food”. I liked working with a nutritionist because WW was just too freeform for me. I know that’s scattered, but I am soooo happy that my mom has started investing in her health and that I invested in mine. I hope that one of my random thoughts might be useful to you and her!
C.G.
I think you should have another conversation with her regarding your concerns. Point out your family history and what you noticed about her limited range of mobility; try to connect the latter to things she likes to do (does she like to garden? watch the sun set? go mini-golfing), and how she could be more able to do those things if she were in a healthier position. I agree with the suggestions about getting a dog, etc. The other thing to do is make a pact with her that you both will, e.g., go for a walk for 15 min 3x per week, and check in with each other. (Or, get her a cell phone/headset so you can talk on the phone while doing it.)
Make it about her health, not about being overweight. When you’re having a conversation like this, repeat to yourself: I am loving, not judgmental. (I don’t think you are judgmental–you are so good to be this concerned about her–but if you remind yourself of this, it may come across in your bearing and help her be less defensive.)
Do you have siblings you can team up with? Aunts or uncles? A good friend of hers? This kind of thing is very difficult to do alone. My mother had surgery recently and I don’t know how I could have handled dealing with everything related to it (especially conversations like: “you just got out of the hospital, would you please SIT DOWN and stop moving furniture”) without my siblings and my mom’s best friend.
Remember that you cannot control either her reactions, or her ultimate actions. You can only do your best to help her.
sadie
I would have a heart-to-heart conversation with her that is NOT about her weight. Look, your mom knows she has a weight problem, and it sounds like she’s terrified about it and defensive. She doesn’t need you to tell her to go to Weight Watchers. And she doesn’t need you to force her to take little walks. If it were that easy, we wouldn’t be in this pickle to start with.
Instead, help her figure out the ankle thing. My guess is that she hurt her ankle and all she heard from the doctor is “You’re too fat for me to help.” And then she felt utterly defeated, humiliated, and hopeless. So stop working on the weight and start focusing on the ankle. The goal is not to get her to lose weight; it’s to get her mobile again. That probably requires a new doctor (J is totally right on this), or a physical therapist, or some other professional support. It is perfectly possible to be obese and healthy and active.
My hope is that if she gets more mobile, it will be easier for her to tackle the weight loss. But let’s be clear: your intentions should be purely about her health and her ankle. The more you focus on health, without a veiled “lose weight!” message, the better off you’ll be.
Good luck. I really feel for you on this one.
anon
This!
N.
I don’t have much relevant experience here, but this is exactly what I would want to hear from my relatives/loved ones if I were in the OP’s mother’s situation.
L
I’m not 60 and am slightly overweight and have an ankle problem. Yes, being overweight does put more stress on your joints and losing weight would help. Thanks Dr. Obvious! I finally (out of frustration) said to a doctor how exactly do you propose I lose weight when BASIC movement hurts – no good answer led me to a new doc.
If your mom lives in an area with a local rec center with an indoor pool, check it out and see if they have passes you could buy her. Get her some yoga/stretching DVDs. Make it about her physical well-being and mobility, not her weight. Also, help her find a new ortho or a PT; I found one who did cortizone shots and it changed my life.
Anon
Yes! My mom has serious arthritis in her knees and is obese. She wants a knee replacement but doctors are uncomfortable putting her under for surgery because of her weight. She has started going to the rec center pool for water aerobics and loves it. She also has met a group of other women who meet up to do the exercises the days they don’t have class. I also got her a very gentle yoga video and she does that when she can’t go to the pool. These are things that folks with limited joint mobility can do without a lot of pain. My mom also hates sweating and loves the pool because she never feels sweaty. Cracks me up.
KK
Yes to physical therapy! I was hoping someone else had mentioned that. She needs to see a physical therapist to improve her mobility. I would tell her this frankly and offer to find her one and make an appointment. You don’t even need to say anything about the weight. Just tell her that you notice her lack of mobility and it bothered you and you’re worried about her. A physical therapist will help her do exercises focused on increasing mobility. It might, subtley, give her the confidence to do other things to improve her mobility and health if she sees results with the phys. therapist.
As for the rest, you can’t make her lose weight. You just can’t. It’s hard enough for someone to do it for themselves, it’s impossible to make someone else do it. If you must have that particular conversation, I would just level with her that given the history of heart disease in your family, you are terrified of losing her too soon. That you still need her in your life, even though you’re grown up and far away, and that you don’t know what you would do if anything happened to her. If that doesn’t do it, nothing will. And if it doesn’t, don’t take it personally. As others have pointed out, weight is a difficult and complicated topic.There may be all kinds of psychological, medical, and genetic issues wrapped up into it, not to mention the power of habits/lifestyle choices that have been established for the past 50 years. You’ll just have to love her for who she is, and hope for the best.
Same boat here...
First, internet hugs to you. This situation is awful. I’ve been trying to get my mom to do something about her health and weight issues for YEARS. (She’s very overweight and refuses to take medication for thyroid issues.) I’ve talked to her directly, encouraged her to go on walks, go to the doctor, told her I was worried about her, etc. but nothing seemed to get through to her. She would get extremely defensive and would hang up on me when I brought it up. My dad was no help – he wants to keep her happy so she doesn’t make his life miserable.
As a last resort, I refused to come home for Thanksgiving and told her that I would not come home until she started taking care of herself. This did not go over well (my parents were devastated and have threatened to write me out of their will), but it worked – she went to a doctor. She’s still in bad shape but at least she’s back on her medication.
Hopefully you have a better relationship with your mother so she will at least engage in an adult conversation with you.
Midwest
I really feel for you and am glad this approach worked. DH has actually considered it with his own mother because of the same issues you were up against. Countless people (doctors, DH, FIL, MIL’s mom, cousins, etc.) have broached the subject with her for YEARS, doing it very compassionately and finally, more recently, in more of a desperate “we love you and support you no matter what, but WAKE UP if you want to be able to do fun things with your grandkids” manner.
Have any of these difficult conversations worked? Nope. Have any helpful suggestions and encouragement helped? Again, nope. You can’t force people to change. It breaks my heart when I see how angry DH is with his mom for not taking care of herself. If she had any idea, it would either be the catalyst for change or the end of their otherwise good relationship. No easy answers, unfortunately.
Seattleite
I am watching my father kill himself via uncontrolled diabetes. But this crosses so many boundaries I’m a little shocked.
AnonInfinity
I agree, Seattleite. My mother is in the same boat as your father — she has many chronic conditions that she doesn’t manage well. It sucks, but our parents are adults. I’ve had concerned, angry, sad, and happy conversations with my mother about her problems. If she wants to live the last few years of her life eating fried chicken and eating candy while watching westerns on tv, then I just have to accept that. It makes me so sad to think about, but people who do not take care of chronic conditions have that right, just like I have the right to exercise every day and eat healthfully. (I’m NOT saying that OP’s mom is in this situation, just responding to Seattleite and Same Boat.)
mamabear
Your mom probably knows she’s fat, just like my mom knew she had a problem with alcohol. Pointing it out is not helpful.
The desire to change has to come from within her. My mom finally addressed her issue and no longer drinks, but none of my sisters’ and my nagging helped, and might have driven her to drink more, frankly.
You have to find a way to be at peace with this being her decision.
Anoun
I agree. FWIW, I had a similar issue with my parents (both of them). I tried everything from nagging to getting one of their best friend’s in on it, to buying them memberships to having meals sent to them. Looking back, the more I pushed the more they resisted. Ultimately, I sat down with them and in a very intentional tone, I basically told them how it made me feel to watch them not care about themselves and how it makes me feel when I think about what my life will be like without them around and how my kids will likely feel. I was careful to tell them I wasn’t saying these things to lay a guilt trip on them but just to be honest because I owe them at least that. I ended it by saying that I love them and just want to spend as many years with them as possible and that the way they are living their lives, it appears our goals are not aligned and that I would work hard on myself to be okay with that and respect their choices. I also told them that I would no longer be forcing my own ideas on them and that they need to know that my silence in that regard is not a sign that I don’t care.
Almost a year later, they started taking nightly walks with each other, which grew into long walks, which grew into bike rides one newly purchased matching beach cruisers (cute, I know). I was careful to never say anything in response except “Oh, I’m glad to hear that you enjoyed the evening.” Or “I’m so happy you guys are spending time together”. It’s still not ideal but I’ve learned that parents are adults too and there is only so much we can do to force them to listen to our demands.
Good luck and know that you are a wondeful daughter for doing the things that you’ve done. I encourage you to lay it all out on the table in a respectful way and leave it in your mom’s hands… it’s up to her how she wants to spend the rest of her years.
Liana
What a sweet story! I’m glad your parents are exercising more and that you’re feeling a little more at peace with them making their own choices. Kudos to you and how you handled it!
Anon
this.
ANP
I agree with mamabear, above. I do believe there are things you can do to assist/move things in the right direction (I like what previous posters have said about focusing on the ankle issue rather than the weight issue — your mom knows she’s overweight and obviously isn’t ready to deal with that right now). Ultimately, however, you have to be at peace with the fact that she may not want to try anymore. I’m going through the same thing with my mother — 64, takes horrible care of herself (eating habits, lack of exercise, ridiculous amounts of smoking) — so I know this is easier said than done.
Please also consider the fact that your mom might be depressed and/or lonely. Her weight, the fact that it sounds as though she lives alone, plus her accident could all be a part of this.
Good luck. There are a lot of people out there in your shoes!
Jas
Exactly. There’s no way she hasn’t realized that she can’t walk up stairs anymore or is in probably constant pain. there’s also no way she hasn’t realized she is overweight. Is there ANY overweight woman in the western world who hasn’t realized she’s fat? I doubt it. She’s made a decision not to address it, or she’s trying to address it and it’s not working. Passive aggressive comments about how great exercising is will not help, and will just make her resent you (my grandmother tried this on my mother, and although my grandmother’s been dead for 15 years, my mother still hasn’t forgiven her).
I’d bring it up once (just ONCE), let her know that you understand it must be overwhelming, but you want to help her with her ankle, so if she wants you to dig up some resources or be a gym/walk/healthy eating buddy, you’d be happy to help. If she accepts your help, great, if not, let it go and don’t bring it up again.
Zelda
I agree. I’m seeing my boyfriend go through the same thing with his mum. If the issue is lack of internal motivation, whether it’s to lose weight, do the right exercises, or in any other activity, then there is really nothing that can be done other than being supportive and understanding that the issue goes a lot further than ‘just lose weight’.
gina
My grandmother was in a similar situation, starting in her 50’s. She never did lose the weight. Her mobility was compromised to the point that she was in a scooter or wheel chair outside the house from about 65 onward, only walking short distances within her home. By her early 80’s, and she could barely walk at all even to move herself from the wheelchair to the bed or toilet. Other than her mobility issues, she was otherwise relatively healthy and of sound mind until she passed away in her mid-80’s. At her 85th birthday party, she remarked that if she had known she was going to live this long, she would have taken better care of herself.
Not advice, just a personal story that I was reminded of by your mother’s situation. My grandmother’s children were unable to do anything to help my grandmother b/c she refused to do anything to help herself, even though she was getting sound advice from her doctors.
anon
My mother is about 60 and also severely overweight (size 24/26 I think). She has been at least that size my entire life. She has joint problems and heart problems, and takes a slew of drugs every day. She has already had serious heart surgery. Diabetes, strokes and heart disease run in the family. Her health would be significantly improved if she lost weight, especially lessening the strain that the extra weight puts on her joints and heart. I really don’t understand why she doesn’t seem to even try to lose weight. Why can’t she decide not to eat a handful of mini peanut butter cups from Trader Joe’s every few hours, or whatever the chocolate junk food du jour is? Why is there a massive stash of candy in her car, in her purse, and in every room in her house? It seems blatantly obvious to me that just choosing not to eat a couple thousand extra calories in candy every day will result in some easy weight loss without any other changes.
Like the OP, I am very worried about my mother’s health. The few times I have gingerly tried to bring up how important it is to eat healthfully, she has gotten incredibly hostile and defensive, so I’ve given up. I must have said the wrong thing, but it seems completely ridiculous to me to have to massage her ego and dance around the medical fact that her poor eating habits and refusal to do any exercise at all will kill her. How hard is it to just eat less junk?? Does she not want to have a healthier life?! At this point, I have basically given up, because it seems apparent to me that she’s going to do exactly what she feels like doing, until it results in serious illness or death. It makes me so frustrated. I am obviously a bad daughter.
Same boat here...
You are not a bad daughter. You have a difficult mother. Like the other posters have said, it is her life and her choice. I’m adding my mother’s b.s. to my “list of crap I will never do to my kids.”
Midwest
You’re not a bad daughter, at all.
Zelda
You’re not a bad daughter. But please understand that for a lot of people, eating is an addiction like any other, and it’s not easy to stop, especially when they are life long habits. It’s like telling a heroin addict to just stop, yes some people can do it, but food can be a real mental addiction.
a.
This. I wish I could remember its name, but I read something this summer on a pro-healthy-body-image site, urging people to have compassion in situations like this. It was along the lines of, “You see the obese man eating three Big Macs in a row, are disgusted, and wonder how he could do that to himself. Stop and wonder how disgusted he might feel that he can’t stop eating them, how complicated his relationship is with every bite that goes into his mouth.”
As someone who has definitely fallen into the “Well just don’t eat it then!” mindset with my dad, it was an eye-opener. (Granted, my dad isn’t obese or particularly overweight, but he has health issues that a better diet would go along way towards fixing, and he refuses to make different choices.)
Notalawyer
Don’t push the weight loss, push the emphasis on mom feeling better and being healthy. If that improves, she’ll feel motivated to lose weight. But weight loss is hard and if unsucessful, may make her feel worse rather than better.
Get here another doctor. If they only thing your doctor tells you to do is lose weight, then they are not a good doctor and are not looking at the ‘whole’ individual. They should look at the whole patient, not just blame it on being overweight and discount everything else.
And, I know not everyone will agree, but imo CURVES is great for older women like your mom. It’s a fairly easy workout, they are super friendly (too friendly, too helpful) and will teach your mom to accomodate if she can’t do all of the stations on the circuit. They are totally cheerleaders too if that will help your mom with motivation.
Encourage her to get a workout buddy? or buddies?
If she has problems with putting weight on her ankle, what about water fitness classes? Is there a YMCA or something similar nearby.
Come up with a list of health improving steps. Start with the easiest first. Once she has ‘conquered’ that one, she’ll feel better and can go to something a little harder. She needs to have hope that she can improve. Don’t start with the difficult stuff first. Every little step counts. And the older we are, the harder it is to change.
DA
You guys are way better people than I am… when my mother, who suffers from polymyrhaggic arthritis, was hospitalized for her chronic drinking on top of painkillers, and the doctors told her that the oxycodone didn’t touch her pain because she was too fat… I didn’t act nearly so kindly or judiciously. Then again, I was a prosecutor for far too long, so I am not supposed to.
Once mom got out of intensive care, I told her that if she didn’t a) get on Jenny Craig and b) do Tai Chi with me via Wii at least once a week and c) never drink on top of painkillers again… I was going to do everything in my power to put her in assisted living. And haul her to my city, where I could look after her (and where it gets cold most of the year, where she knows NOone and you can’t get anywhere without driving or climbing stairs).
I also told her rhematologist that if he didn’t pee test her for alcohol every time she came into see him, I would get his medical license revoked. I actually did get the doctor at the pain management clinic’s medical license revoked.
But, to her credit, she seems to be doing alot better now. Though I think she secretly fears that I will run out of money before I get a new job and will be forced to move into her spare room.
But, as an only child with no family, a part of me will always be waiting for another frantic call telling me my mother is in intensive care. I suppose all of us with aging parents expect that call at a base level… but I will be so freaking P.O.ed if its because she ate herself into even more pain, then drank on top of painkillers again.
I digress.
OP, my heart goes out to you. You can’t make anyone do anything that they don’t want to do… unless you hold a gun to their head, or make a shameless appeal to their unselfish (mother’s) heart.
Anon
you may have to accept limits of what you can do. I can only get my parents to do so much- it’s their choice. Weirdly, the only thing that has ‘stuck’ with my mom is Curves- she really likes that place.
coco
My mother is also overweight and finds walking very painful. What about swimming? Is there a local Y or a pool she would have access to? I know a hotel in my area used to hold water aerobics classes at their pool. Even if she doesn’t swim (like my mom), she should try water walking. Literally, just going for a walk in the pool. For a while, that was the only way my mom could walk any distance.
My mom also starting working with a trainer who had a background in physical therapy and rehab. They use rehab machinery, which increases at smaller increments. Perhaps she could try physical therapy for her ankle?
Eating healthy can be hard if you aren’t used it to, and cooking healthy can be tough too. Can you invite her to come visit you for a week? During that week, show her how you cook, or take a cooking class together. Practice portion control.
In terms of the conversation, just be clear that you are coming from a place of love. “Mom, I love you and I want you in my life for years to come. I am concerned about your health [not your weight]. What can I do to help you live healthier?” You cannot take power away from her if she is depressed and has low self-esteem. You have to let her make the decisions, but you can provide options.
J
Just a reminder that some readers of this blog started a Weight Watchers online group. If you use Weight Watchers online, search for the group called Weight Watchin’ Corporettes. Hope you can join us!
This’ll probably be the last time I post about it here, to avoid seeming like a spammer, but feel free to pass the info on to anyone who might be interested.
Anonymous
Why, why, why don’t you respect Kat’s IP rights??!!! I URGE all followers of this site to ignore these requests to join this group, and to quit this group if you have joined. Kat deserves better from us.
Anon
How are Kat’s IP rights being infringed by someone creating a subgroup of corporettes to encourage weight loss?
Anonymous
Because “Corporette” is a trademark owned by Kat. Guess you’re not a lawyer?
Anon
And I’m guessing you’re not an IP lawyer, if you actually think that’s a legitimate complaint against this group. And yes, I am a lawyer. I guess you think STFU Corporette should be outlawed too? Or how about those groups designed for Corporette meet ups? Can’t call them that then, can we? Ridiculous.
Emily
I’m pretty sure Kat is aware of this, and the WW group leader agreed to make clear that “Corporette” is a reference to this blog…did I misinterpret that comment exchange from a few days ago?
Anonymous
Well, I hope she’s not diluting her mark. But up to her to protect her IP.
found a peanut
“diluting her mark”…did you just take IP in law school or something?
J
Actually Kat specifically okayed the title and description used for the group. So chill the F out.
Siri
LMAO at this entire exchange. I suppose everyone who’s ever called themselves a Deadhead or a Jezzie should be sued for trademark dilution, right?
I think Kat should be commended for building a huge following of readers who have turned her blog name into a group identity. If that’s not building a brand identity, what is? Congrats, Kat!
Heatherskib
Ooooohhh pretty!
Kady
I love this. But, alas, it is one more item for my aspiration life (and not my real one).
PHX
Yes, the aspirational life I lead when I marry Prince Harry, and become BFFs with the Duchess of Cambridge….I’m sure it’s all going to work out for me one day…
Bonnie
Definitely. Maybe I can buy a clutch like this one day when I have a house with a huge walk-in closet and can buy items that will be used once in a blue moon. Sigh.
CW
The Beebee clutch on Reiss’ site is one for my aspirational life.
a passion for fashion
i love this clutch. i need to stop coming to this website though. Every time i see something i like i wind up buying it. or buying something else i like on the website to which i was directed from this site. i just got 3 pairs of shoes from neiman after seeing some top on this site (but i mean really, who could pass up a pair of SWs, DVFs, and Michael Kors on sale for a total of $400?)
ks
Sorry to start the weekend with sadness, but need advice from those in the hive that have this background/perspective. Father of my daughter’s best friend (both mid-20’s) was killed in a MV crash last night. All live 1000 miles away from me, daughter trying to help out family as she can. Family is Chinese, immigrated just over 20 years ago. Father was a professional, mom did not work outside of home, doesn’t drive, limited English; kept traditional Chinese home. I’d like to send something, acknowledge somehow, honestly don’t know how/where to start. Customs, cultural things to be aware of? I have no idea…..
anon
how awful.
send a basket of fruit or some tasteful flowers, which can be white (per below suggestion) or can be another paleish color. FWIW, i’m chinese, these things always revolve around fruit and flowers and food.
the truly traditional things (big flower memorials and wreaths; funeral currency) are not things you would be expected to send, but fruit/flowers are appropriate.
Kady
White is the color of death for Chinese families, not black. If you want to send flowers, they should be white. Also, flowers for Chinese funerals are usually wreaths with messages written on ribbons for the deceased. If you can find a florist in Chinatown nearby, they can help you with this.
Many traditional Chinese families don’t understand the whole giving food for grieving family thing. But if they’re 20 years immigrated, I would think they’re more in tune with American conventions. Do you know if they are Christian or Buddhist (or neither)?
Kady
(I agree w/ anon above w/r fruit. By “food,” I meant prepared dishes that I often see brought to post-funeral gatherings in the States.)
ks
I do not sense there is a strong religious connection either direction (my daughter advised them to contact a chinese church to get funeral home suggestions, they hadn’t thought of that); current thinking is the funeral will be in a few weeks to allow family members from China to attend. Thanks for the insights re: flowers and food.
Esquirette
I’m not sure if/how this might play into things but next week is also the Chinese New Year (several days).
ss
I think it would be very acceptable for you to send flowers directly to the family’s home. Don’t worry about getting the traditional standing wreaths – many small Chinatown business will be shut next week.
For the wake/ funeral, it is traditional to set up a small money box for ‘white gold’ – small sums of money from the community intended to help the family with funeral expenses in the olden days, but these days more a gesture than anything else. Your daughter may want to keep an eye out in case there is one and perhaps make a contribution on both your behalf’s – there is usually a memorial book for writing this down.
Pit
I read this article the other day about how this guy posted his weight everyday in a “public humiliation diet.” Uhh…scary! But maybe it will work? So I am going to do it – but on here. It’s kind of public, but not really public, so…
178.1
Goal: 120 (I don’t know when I have been at that weight – 6th grade??? I am 5’3”)
ps – while I welcome weight loss tips, that is not the point of this. I know what I should be doing.
Pit
Here’s the article. It should make you smile.
http://deadspin.com/5545674/the-public-humiliation-diet-a-how+to
Bunkster
Boston.com has something similar where people post in a particular forum their current weight and their goals.
Formerly Preggo Angie
OMG – “at maximized lightness.” Made me LOL, only because I follow the same, ahem, rule.
Anon for This
Eek, can you reconsider doing this here? In a forum this size with this demographic, we are bound to have posters dealing with eating disorders, and this could make this forum pretty unsafe for them. A dedicated weight loss forum might be a better place.
Anonymous
Perfect time to mention that someone started a Weight Watchers group for us – I agree that this kind of thing should be kept off of this forum.
Not sure if Pit is a WW member but if you are, here’s the group: http://community.weightwatchers.com/Groups/GroupPage.aspx?sid=7652521
BB
Yes, please. A daily post of weight gain/loss would be disruptive and might start a pattern. It’s an interesting concept, but one that would be much better suited to Facebook or Path. (And on Path you could mark each update private if you wanted to continue to journal your progress without the public aspect.)
Eleanor
Good luck! Whether you post here or somewhere else, I’m cheering you on.
Pit
Wow, 1 out of 6 people tells me good luck. I really thought this would have been a good place to get some support. I respect that you don’t want this to turn into a weightloss forum, and if everyone thinks it will I won’t post my weight. People post their continuing struggles on here all the time. That’s mine. (And if you look at the article, it isn’t a rundown of what you eat, just a number. Just a number added to a comment about a cute blouse or something.)
So, thanks Eleanor for the words of encouragement.
KK
For what it’s worth, I think it’s a good idea and I wish you luck. I think posting on facebook (rather than an anonymous forum) would be the bravest and potentially most effective version of this idea.
I understand steering you towards the WW forum if you want to post every day. I’m a little bit floored by the eating disorder-related comments. People post in these comments about weight-related issues all the time. If you have such a problem, isn’t part of the healing/coping process learning to filter out messages that trigger you? I mean, that stuff is all over television/magazines/life. It’s unfair to chastise a complete stranger for inadvertently doing something that triggers an sensitive issue for you. Do you have more right to these forums than she does?
Anon for This
Honestly, it’s different when you’re talking about someone posting specific numbers on a day-to-day basis. It’s hard to describe if you haven’t experienced it, but it’s the tracking and comparison that is really problematic for a lot of people. And yeah, it’s not rational, that’s why it’s a mental illness.
a.
What Anon for This said: the specific numbers are the problem. Comparison is huge. For me it would have played out like, “If SHE could lose THREE pounds, I could lose FIVE,” but it’s less of a “could” and more of a sickening imperative, where if you don’t “beat” the other person you are a disgusting fat failure who doesn’t deserve to be happy, much less eat dinner. I know that sounds ridiculous, but, as Anon for This said, there’s nothing rational about it.
And if anything I said in my post below came across as chastising to Pit or anyone else, I sincerely apologize as that wasn’t my intent. I don’t think I have more of a right to Corporette than anyone else; I just think that Pit might not have considered the effect posting her numbers could have on a small group of other community members. And as we are a community, I think it behooves us all to handle difficult subjects like weight loss with as much consideration and caring as we can manage.
AR
Well said, KK.
Makeup Junkie
I’m a former fatty and I wish you the best of luck. For me, once I made the decision to drop the weight, it was pretty easy to keep on it and I hope it’s the same situation for you.
a.
Pit, good luck with your weight loss! And I hope that, whatever forum you choose to use, will be successful for you.
With that said…I will out myself as someone who has struggled with disordered eating. You (or anyone) posting your weight loss numbers would not trigger me at this point in my life, but it absolutely could have at a less mentally-strong place. I know you see it as just a number, but seeing “just a number” on the scale helped me to go from a very healthy weight, to one where my hair started falling out. I’m not saying this to in any way get attention or sympathy points for myself, but I know I can’t be the only one here who has dealt (is dealing, because it never seems to completely go away, even when you think you’re safe) with this.
Please don’t take my saying all of this as unsupportive. I support your weight loss goals as much as I support another Corporette’s goals to exercise more/have a child/get a promotion/etc. I think the Weight Watchers group, mentioned above, would be a great place for you to pursue this.
With all the Serius Biznez out of the way, that Deadspin article is hilarious.
SoCal Gator
If you want to post your weight here weekly, you should. I wish you all the best.
I also offer an additional suggestion. if you want a supportive online community that will help motivate you to lose weight, consider joining MyFitnessPal. It’s free and there are smartphone and iPad apps if you are so inclined but you can also use it on a computer. You create a profile, fill out your weight and fitness goals and then log everything you eat and all your exercise. You can post your weight as often as you like and it notifies your friends if you have lost weight. You add folks as friends and we support one another through our daily stresses. What we are eating, what exercise we are getting, how we are doing. This was a very helpful tool that I used, along with a very good medically supervised weight loss program, that resulted in a loss of 68 pounds last year — I began April 15, 2011 and through year’s end, was down to a size 2/4 having started at size 16. I have been in maintenance now for several months and am still very active. I intend to keep using MFP as it is part of my life now and I want to keep the weight off for good.
If MyFitnessPal does not sound like it’s right for you, there are other supportive weight loss/fitness communities, including Weight Watchers, that was mentioned above, Spark People, LiveStrong, just to mention a few. Find one that works for you.
Best of luck to you. You can do it!
Anonymous
My continuing struggle is bulimia, so I’d appreciate it if you don’t use this as a forum for shaming yourself because of your body weight, which is less than mine. Just sayin’.
AR
I wish you luck, Pit. I liked the article you posted, and extremely irritated that you’re supposed to refrain from discussing weight loss because someone out there might have an eating disorder and is so fragile they can’t bear it. Give me a break.
a.
No one asked Pit not to discuss weight loss. People discuss weight loss here all the time, and that is completely fine. I myself would happily comment-encourage Pit along, if she’d said she wanted to post something daily that was more of a general update, about how things were going or how she was feeling or hey! she just found this great healthy recipe, or maybe she just went to a really awful class at the gym. And FWIW, I thought the article she posted was funny, too.
What we asked Pit to refrain from doing was posting her specific daily numbers. As *every* woman who has identified herself as having had an eating disorder in this thread has agreed, seeing those numbers could trigger harmful behavior. I will tell you flat-out that it would have for me, during the times in my life that I’ve struggled with this. So it’s not a question of there MIGHT be people out there who have eating disorders; there ARE.
What you said next, about how we are “so fragile that [we] can’t bear it,” and your request that we “Give [you] a break,” just illustrates, to me at least, how much of a stigma eating disorders carry. Would you tell the Corporettes who post about depression to give you a break? Seriously? I have no wish to trivialize depression–it’s a very serious illness–but more people die as a result of eating disorders than any other mental illness in the United States. And I will guarantee you that not all of those people are fragile. Do you even know what kind of mental strength it requires to starve yourself, despite the fact that your body is screaming at you to feed it?
No one can force Pit not to post her daily weight, if that’s what she chooses to do. I honestly believe she didn’t know that it would be an issue for any Corporettes, leading to her confusion and feeling unsupported. As others have noted, a person who has never struggled with this would not immediately understand the problem with posting specific numbers. Which is why we have tried to explain it to her, in the hopes that she would get where we’re coming from, and not post information that she knew could be triggering.
TCFKAG
My brother is currently losing weight and one of his strategies is by keeping his food journal as part of a blog where he records what he eats, how much he exercises, how many points he saved under his goal for each day, and whatever other thoughts are going on. He’s lost 30+ pounds and its also a great peek into his mind. It means when he’s feeling down, I can e-mail him a pick-me-up. Or when he was lamenting his lack of healthy snack ideas, I could give him healthy 80 calorie granola bars for Christmas. Or when he talks about a particularly kick ass work out, I can write and say how cool that is.
And I know that a least a few other people follow it. I think its actually great. Its not about humiliation for him, its about support.
Pit
Thanks for the suggestions. Felt a little attacked yesterday after feeling like I had put myself out there. So thanks to all for the responses since then. Hope everyone has a great weekend!
CSF
Good luck to you. I’m proud of you for taking charge of your goals, and making them happen. Don’t let the naysayers get you down!
anon
For those with eating disorders or know people with them- MandoMeter is a treatment that shows higher success rates than traditional weight programs. It’s based on biofeedback and re-trains the brain to eat right. It also work for weight loss actually. It isn’t avaialble through clinics widely in the US, maybe only NYC, but I think you can get the device (biofeedback- food scale thing).
Anonymous
I read The 4-Hour Body recently and one of the suggestions was to set up a personal wiki page and post photos of everything you eat. The idea was that if you force yourself to snap a picture that you will make better decisions and then posting them online every day will be added incentive. Sounds like a similar idea to what you are thinking.
Good luck. I’m sorry you didn’t feel supported here, but as someone who has also suffered with an eating disorder, I agree with the comments that your idea to post the specific numbers here regularly can be triggering. Its nothing I’d expect anyone who never had an eating disorder before to realize. But honestly good luck with your goals.
Kanye East
White flowers would be a nice gesture.
Kanye East
Oy vey; this was for ks.
Clueless
Any recommendations on an online makeup tutorial for easy makeup application? Ideally looking for a video where someone can teach me. I went to Sephora a few weeks ago and bought several items (foundation, concealer, and highlighter) that looked good on me at the time, but I don’t really know how to wear the concealer or highlighter. Not looking for evening makeup or anything complicated, just a simple tutorial on makeup basics. Thanks!
ADL
Not a fan of hers but I’ve heard good things about thebeautydepartment dot com – good 101 tutorials.
J
http://www.keikolynn.com/ often has tutorials.
GRA
Keiko Lynn is the best!
Amber
Search for MakeupbyTiffanyD on YouTube. She’s been making tutorial videos for years and has one for almost every style, including lots on basic foundation, eyes, blush, etc. She is very professional and puts a lot of time and care into her videos. I’ve learned much from her and appreciate that all of her looks are wearable for professionals.
Makeup Junkie
Goss Makeup Artist is great. He’s got a tutorial for a basic face on YouTube
anone
Hi Ladies, I’d like to hear your opinions as you are all very educated and intelligent women! And I hope I don’t sound awful for asking or thinking this, but here goes:
How important is it for you that your significant other be as “book smart” as you? For example, do you care if they have reads books, gone to museums or other local cultural pursuits (without your urging), can challenge you on highly abstract concepts (such as those one would have learned in grad school level classes) or history/literature, etc.? What would you say if these things were lacking, but the person is an incredibly kind heart who treats you very well and adore you for these very things you possess, plus you have good chemistry and fun otherwise?
anone
ugh, I don’t sound very smart with all those typos, but I meant “do you care if they read books, go to museums , etc…”
Bunkster
I’m single so this might not mean so much. I don’t require that he go to museums, challenge me on abstract concepts, etc. The men in my family are smart, but they’re not into the cultural/arts things. I do like a guy who’s able to hold an intelligent conversation and could keep up with the conversation, especially when meeting my family. And I absolutely require that the guy has gone to college.
I can’t tell you how many winks, posts, etc I get on dating sites from guys who haven’t even finished high school.
On the other hand, the guy you’re talking about sounds great and if you enjoy his company, then you should stick with him.
anone
Putting aside the arts/culture issue, how about just reading books? Don’t you think that it is very off-putting when a person (man or woman) has read like 5 books in their life, mainly for school assignments?
Not reading does to the mind what not exercising does to the body, imho.
anonymous
no, i don’t. “books” are not the measure of learning, especially nowadays, when a lot of people get their learning from magazines, podcasts, news and news outlets in whatever form.
added to that, my husband immigrated to this country when he was 18. he learned english in college. he doesn’t read books because it’s a chore for him to slog through the pages. he’d rather attend a lecture, listen to a TED talk, read an article or opinion piece online, watch al-jazeera, etc. than read “Love in the time of Cholera”.
but if you feel strongly about this, maybe this non-literary dude isn’t for you.
Amelia Bedelia
interestingly, I think this is why my husband does not read. English is his second language and it is more difficult for him. I am so impressed he made it through so many years of higher education in English!
S
I think reading books or not is something most people learn in childhood. For example, I was read to as a child and that got me interested in books. For some people books (textbooks are excluded here) were not a part of their home culture. So reading is a chore. I do believe though reading helps kids do better in school as they grow up. It’s more interactive than say watching TV. If English is your husband’s second language, he can still look for reading material in his language. Maybe order books online or read magazines. This is if he’s interested of course.
Lucy
Not to sound snarky, but if English is not someone’s first language, they can still read books in their own language. I know many people who came to the US late in life, and choose to read in their native language. Without passing judgment on someone’s choosing not to read, english being their second language is NOT an excuse. You either like to read or you don’t.
Personally, I don’t think I could date a “non-reader” but that’s because one of my favorite things to do is to share books with a loved one, to discuss the classics, to quote poems I know by heart, etc. That doesn’t mean that my deal breaker has to be someone else’s though.
Amelia Bedelia
Trust me when I tell you that books (educational or pleasure reading) are not readily available in all languages. My husband is from a thirdworld country. Books aren’t really a priority in his homeland! I am surprised that people would not realize that — but I think that shows the American/English speaking culture that believes everything imagineable is readily available!
anon
I’m the same anon from the bottom of the replies (and awaiting moderation ughhhh), I wouldn’t give that too much thought. Some people don’t really ever get exposed to books they like and never pursue it for fun. It’s all about exposure. My husband doesn’t read and never has. But he reads nerdy magazines and the newspaper. And he will read books I highly recommend and we love discussing them (even if he got bored half way through and abandoned it, we can still talk about why he didn’t want to finish it).
beccavt
Ha, my husband and I do this too – he just tells me to tell him about any interesting things that happen in the rest of the book. Or, he won’t even start it but I’ll read a book on the couch while he fixes his computer or his bike or something and I’ll just tell him about it whenever I come across something interesting (obviously this works better for nonfiction books).
anon
Reading isn’t the only way to exercise your mind! Just because you love it doesn’t mean other people will or should. Keep an open mind.
Bunkster
Nope. And this is coming from someone who reads A LOT. My dad is smart, but he likes to say he read one book and that was enough. He did the high school/college reading. He went to good schools.
But since then, he’s probably read 5 or 6 total – and almost all of those were about war. He reads science, computing, business magazines and the Boston Globe.
There are a lot of other ways to gain knowledge and to communicate.
Bunkster
Oh, and my brother reads every night, but he likes to read books with “a lot of killing.” His author of choice is Lee Child. I think those books are awful and terribly written.
Diana Barry
My husband never reads books, but he reads probably 10 or 15 articles a day online. I am an avid reader of books, but don’t ding him for that.
He is also much less culturally inclined than I am – why would you spend $75 on a ticket to the symphony, etc., but is very smart (also went to ivy league), just more science-oriented than I am.
beccavt
My husband is really smart and knows way more than I do on lots of subjects (math, science, current events, as well as more practical things, such as how to fix our car). He does not read books, aside from Harry Potter and LOTR when he was a teenager. He does plenty of reading online to continue learning things, which may be different than your situation, but I’m fine with me being the bookworm and he being the one who is more interested in information when it comes in a “top 10” list on reddit.
I would 100% have a sweet guy who loves me and doesn’t read much (or at all) than a “book smart” guy who doesn’t match up with me as well.
Liana
My husband never reads books, with the exception of nonfiction business-related books. As an avid reader, this baffled me in the early days of our relationship, but I came to recognize that we all have different ways of exploring the world around us and different preferred methods of leisure. I, for example, have a very difficult time sitting through an entire movie unless I’m really fascinated by it, but if I had two solid hours to read, I could be immersed in a book the whole time. IMHO, there are lots of ways of exercising the mind, and I would be more put off if the man in question didn’t use exercise his mind in *any* way.
Anonymous4
Does it matter to YOU? That you’re asking the question suggests it might. And although you’ve gotten replies from dozens of ladies who say it doesn’t matter to THEM, if you sense that it matters to YOU, then the little voice inside is the only one you need to listen to. If reading, discussion, and intellectual challenge are central to your life; if you tend to have a very small social circle where those closest to you (such as a spouse) fill the majority of your needs; and/or if you’ve always envisioned your ideal partnership as being, at least in part, a true “meeting of the minds” where you value the other person’s opinions and rely on them to challenge your own…then beware of trying to build a life with someone who you don’t feel, in all honesty, is your intellectual equal. Some people enjoy having a mate who is very different from them, and that’s OK–they get their intellectual needs met with other friends, or on the job, or elsewhere. But if YOU need to be with someone who thinks and reads on the same plane (although not necessarily in the same vein) as you do, then please don’t settle for anything less. You won’t be doing either of you any favors in the long run.
Just my $0.02. We’ve all got to take a long, hard look inside and make our own choices.
anon
it’s not important to me. i thought it was, once. then i dated a guy who read all the same books as me, waxed poetic on the subject of VS Naipaul, etc. but couldn’t return a phone call to save his life.
my husband hardly ever reads books, but that’s OK, b/c reading is a solitary activity. he does like museums and will accompany me to various cultural activities of my choosing (within reason) and occasionally gets very excited about a piece of classical music. but even if he didn’t – i have plenty of girlfriends and other friends that would come along with me to the symphony.
honestly, i know these things seem like the stuff of romance but they are really the stuff of romantic comedies. trust me, you want the guy who treats you well, calls you back, cares for you and loves you. if he doesn’t have that, his ability to ‘challenge you on highly abstract concepts’ will not comfort you on friday night.
remember SITC? Carrie didn’t end up with the Russian.
DA
There’s a big difference between intellect, education and culture.
I am intelligent and well educated, but have had most of the intellectual curiosity beaten out of me by law school… my BF spent 7 years in college and never finished, but reads far more intelligent books and articles, cares far more about ideas and abstract concepts, and lives a far more expansive “life of the mind” than I ever will again. He also has better social and domestic skills than I do.
When it comes to culture, I like it (when it is inexpensive) as a break from the norm…. “something different”. My BF is genuinely interested in some aspects, will put up with others for my sake and manages to excuse himself from most lawyer socializing functions. And it seems to work; I’m way happier with him than I was with the super successful cultured accountant, the junior executive, and the architect.
Yes, on some levels, it would be nice to be with someone who had to attend the same social/ professional functions, who would impress my snotty colleagues, who would feel comfortable at a fancypants fundraiser (especially because I despise most of these things and would rather go to a BBQ on someone’s back porch). But I would far rather be with someone who is 100% supportive, who has unflagging faith in me, who is unfailingly positive and honestly tells me I look pretty in sweatpants and pigtails. Maybe I am a sucker, though :)
Don’t ask us how WE feel, that doesn’t matter. What matters is whether such things matter to YOU. If you’re asking, it sounds like it might matter… and there’s nothing wrong with that. Just be honest with yourself.
spacegeek
I agree with this–it is not about what others think but whether you will be able to respect him and feel proud of his other accomplishments.
PHX
I don’t think you sound awful, and I’m not trying to be snarky, but I think there was a Weekend Open Thread on this about a year ago?
My thoughts: a person has to be “smart” in the sense that he has to be interested learning about/engaging in the world around him. For example, if I want to go to an art museum (and truly, I have a very limited knowledge base about art, so no expert here), he should at least be willing to try going and looking the art too. In my book, that’s active engagement with the world around us.
And it works the other way too — just because he’s educated, doesn’t mean that he’s educated in the same things/same way that you are. But again, there has to be the willingness to engage/learn.
Is the question “can you have a fulfilling relationship with someone less educated/book smart?” Or is the question really, “Can you have a fulfilling relationship with someone who has little/no interest in the things that you are interested in?” The first can work; the second, not so much.
ANP
PHX, I love your definition of “smart” — yes! Active engagement in the world around you…bingo.
I’ve been married to my husband for 4.5 years and we’ve been together for 7. I will never forget when I first met him and we got onto the topic of books (I’m a voracious reader). He told me his favorite book was “The Godfather” by Mario Puzo and I almost cried — no offense to this book, but he was only motivated to read it because he’d seen the movie. I was certain we’d never go on another date and, well, here I am.
I honestly believe my husband has read less than ten full books for pleasure in his entire life…BUT he loves watching educational TV programming (History Channel, Discovery, etc.). I, on the other hand, watch only the trashiest of television shows but love to read. Who learns more? I’m not sure.
That being said, he and I love going to zoos/museums/concerts/etc. together and he’s a big online article reader. I learned early on that as long as we’re both interested in the world and willing to absorb knowledge, the vehicle doesn’t matter. My two cents.
Portia
ANP, this is almost exactly my situation – except DH’s favorite book (out of the five or so he’s read outside of school) is The Bourne Identity.
Since about the age of 12 I was convinced I was going to meet my future husband in the stacks at the Oxford library, where we were both doing research for our graduate theses. Instead, I met my husband at a college party where he struck up a conversation about the awesome nature documentary he had just seen on the Discovery Channel. He’s kind and thoughtful and we’re very, very happy, even if there are many nights when I read a hundred year old novel while he checks all the sports blogs and tells me about the sexy sandwich he ate for lunch :) I used to think a guy not being able to converse with me in a dead language would be a deal-breaker, but once I met the right man it turned out it didn’t matter one smidge.
Sydney Bristow
This is where I fall on the issue as well. Traditional education or book smarts are nice qualities but not a necessity for me. What I’ve discovered is a necessity is the desire to be involved in the world around you and to move towards goals or otherwise improve your life.
That being said, different things are important to different people. If book smarts are important to you, that is totally ok. You can’t try to second guess what you feel is important.
Lynnet
I think it would depend on whether he is as smart in other ways. Maybe he’s not book smart, but can he look at something and know immediately how to fix it? Or does he love hiking or mountain climbing? I wouldn’t want to date someone who didn’t have something they were good at/passionate about, but it’s not important to me that the person I date have the same skills I do. My husband is (an extremely brilliant engineer), I’m a (somewhat less brilliant) lawyer. We have different strengths, but I enjoy being able to see the world from his point of view, and him likewise. He can’t discuss gender theory with me, and I don’t understand how magnetism works. I want to go to the local art museum, and he wants to take a tour of the mint. By being with him, I’m opened up to a bigger world than I would be if I were with someone who was more like me.
Yup
I completely agree – he doesn’t have to be book smart, but he does have to be smart. Meaning, he should be open to learning and expanding his mind, even if not through books. I dated a guy seriously for 3 years who was not smart period – forget about books, he never read the newspaper, didn’t know or want to discuss politics, and couldn’t do basic math. It got to the point where I felt embarrassed when he talked with my friends because he sounded like an idiot.
Is your guy inquisitive? Can he hold his own in a conversation about politics, religion, current events, etc. around your friends/family? Do you respect him?
By the way, I don’t think your question is snarky, I think it’s honest. My husband is way way smarter than me, and I find that very attractive. So I understand where you are coming from.
ML
100% agree, well said. I used to think that these types of thing (both loving to read for example) were important. Now I’m so grateful to be married to someone who is smart, funny, passionate and successful, and who has opened up my world to many new things that I might never previously have learned about…comic books, martial arts, boxing, fantasy novels…all kinds of interesting things. No, he doesn’t like to read a newspaper, whereas I’m a politics junkie, but he loves to listen to podcasts and always has something interesting to say . And most importantly, he’s passionate about so many things. that, to me, is incredibly important. What he’s passionate about hardly matters, but passion for something – and even better, passion combined with ambition = a winner. The fact that he has never read jane austen and never will? Not an issue.
Also, I do think that in addition to being passionate, there are many ways to be “smart.” My husband, for example, loves word games and is incredibly good at them. He’s a sudoku wizard. He can fix almost anything. He has perfect pitch. He’s a great cook. The fact that he doesn’t follow politics and reads about 5% of what I do is really no indication of how “smart” he is.
Amelia Bedelia
this. 100%.
and i am beginning to think we are married to the same amazing man, ML!
Nonny
You know what, I thought these things were important to me, and then I met someone very like the person you describe. We have been together for almost 1.5 years now, and I see a stable future with him. I discovered that his kind heart, patience and generous nature were far more important to me than whether he was well-read.
anon
My husband wouldn’t do those things on his own and it doesn’t matter– it’s not because he’s not “book smart” but because i’m an arts and culture-o-phile and he’s a nerdy engineer who works in finance. He wasn’t really exposed to people who consider those things fun, and even when he was, he never had the time to participate or take an interest. All that said, what matters is open mindedness to new experiences and new things. Of course I didn’t know all of this stuff about him when we met in college (and I definitely knew these things about me). But now, on vacation, he helps me plan which museums we visit because it’s my thing (and sincerely tries to be engaged); he takes an interest in books I’m reading and will try to read them if they strike his interest so we can talk about them; he gives my old hitchcock movies a shot (but generally gets bored with them half way through). And if he tries it and likes it, it works out fantastically. But it’s not a one way street — I always show interest in what he’s into (generic guy stuff; his work; whatever businessy magazine he’s ready) and we talk about those things too. It’s nice to have someone with different interests, it keeps you that much more level headed.
Vivian
I think it’s important to be able to enjoy great conversations together, but they don’t have to be about history or literature. My boyfriend struggled in school and he almost never reads books for fun. I excelled in the academic world and always have a new book on hand. At first, I thought these differences might matter, but they don’t at all. It’s actually nice to be in a relationship with someone who is different from me.
Can he make you laugh? Does he support your goals? Is he kind? These are the things that matter most :)
NOLA
I totally agree! I think it depends on what matters to the OP. For me, someone who is interested and interesting and well educated (informally) on a variety of topics is more important than someone who always has a stack of books he’s reading. I look for someone who is passionate and committed to the pursuits and people he loves and who is strong and capable. But that might not be important to the next woman and it has taken me a lot of years and a few failures to figure it out.
Susan
I define book smart quite differently– as in, “graduated from highly ranked undergrad and/or grad programs.” I don’t find being “credentialed” in this way all that important.
Whereas the reading of books, going to museums, cultural pursuits out of personal interest (not GF pressure) is just “an interest in culture” which I’ve seen in people without much formal education.
If I were dating for fun, general intelligence, kindness, and chemistry would be all that I’d require.
In choosing a life partner, those 3 things are necessary but not sufficient. Having “an interest in culture” was a must because I have an interest in culture and it’s something to talk about. We will get wrinkly, creaky, and the new relationship energy/excitement will wax and wane with each other over the years. But the stream of interesting conversation on topics we both love can be a constant over the decades.
I work a lot and commute a lot, so there are relatively few hours I get to spend with my husband anyways. Having different hobbies and interests would just make it more likely that we spend even more time away from each other, or, let those hobbies shrivel up and die. Also, a lot of my work involves using logic, thinking about abstract stuff, and I’d frankly be annoyed and bored with someone who couldn’t do this and who doesn’t enjoy this, but Your Mileage May Vary!
eaopm3
My H isn’t nearly as well-read or book smart as I am. But he loves me dearly and knows how to fix the disposal when I cram it full of potato peels for the umpteenth time. I love that I don’t have to be challenged to “think” when we are together, like I do at work all day and when spend time outside of work with my colleagues. I admit that I do worry at times what might fly out of his mouth when he is involved in a conversation that might be over his head, but fortunately, he isn’t the type of guy that tries to impress other people, so I shouldn’t even have that worry.
Scully
“knows how to fix the disposal when I cram it full of potato peels for the umpteenth time.”
I could have written this word for word. My SO is much more practical than I am and I’ve learned a ton about how to repair the car, etc from him. Meanwhile, I got him listening to my favorite shows on NPR. While he doesn’t geek out over theory and policy the way I do, he’s having fun broadening his horizons. He’ll never beat me in Scrabble, but I can definitively live with that.
phillygirlruns
i’ve always drawn a distinction between “intelligent” and “knowledgeable.” you can become knowledgeable by reading a lot of books, visiting museums and otherwise developing a large internal filing cabinet of facts, but being intelligent is more about the ability to process things, learn and apply new concepts, and otherwise use that knowledge in some way other than spouting off the answers on (or while watching) jeopardy.
i’m not sure whether your definition of “book smarts” falls into the “knowledgeable” or “intelligent” umbrella. i dated someone through all of college and into my first year of law school who was very knowledgeable about a lot of things, and who was overall a really great, genuine guy, but who simply didn’t share my level of intelligence. as a result, after we’d been together for a few years and my interests started becoming a bit more sophisticated, it started to become difficult for us to relate. my husband and i have very different interests and are knowledgeable on very different subjects, but the fact that we have the same level of intelligence generally makes that a non-issue (or even a benefit).
KinCA
Intelligence is absolutely a turn-on for me. However, they don’t necessary need to go to museums or have season passes to the symphony to qualify.
I seriously dated a guy through my late teen’s/early twenties, and I was definitely the “book smart” one in our relationship. However, he was smart in ways that I could never dream of being, and that was attractive to me. I remember him building an intricate pulley system to help his grandmother avoid carrying laundry up 3 flights of stairs (I could never have done that!). He was a former Eagle Scout and knew a lot about astronomy and stargazing, so we would spend nights looking at the stars together and he would teach me the constellations. While I would definitely kick his butt on any kind of academic or “cultural” test, he could still teach me new things and was an ‘expert’ in his own right. That allowed our relationship to work well for a long time. We broke up for reasons totally unrelated to intelligence and/or culture.
My current SO is ridiculously book smart (the guy reads books on string theory and physics FOR FUN), and I like that too, albeit in a different way. He’s really into jazz music, so we’re getting tickets to a series of jazz concerts in our area this summer. That’s something I would never have thought of getting into, so I like that he’s broadening my horizons.
The most important thing to me that they can keep up with my sense of humor and way of conversing. I have a very quick-witted, sarcastic sense of humor that I inherited from both parents and my comments are often ‘blink & you miss them’ type things (just imagine what family dinners are like!). If you don’t get my style of humor or can’t keep up with the conversation, it’s not going to work. It’s even better if you can serve up an equally rapid fire response. My now boyfriend stole my heart when he not only laughed at one of my comments on our first date, he threw out a similar zinger right back.
IV
It would bother me if he weren’t “intellectually curious” and/or unmotivated or stagnant. Absolutely, and that is because I want/need someone compatible, and I am a bit of a nerd with some obscure tendencies. So, yes, in this manner, and because of basic compatibility.
It does not matter to me, however, that he is “book smart” in the same way in which years of education have shaped my brain (for what else is “book smart” but that kind of “smart” that reflects educational rigors?).
Happily married
Based on your definition of “book smart,” I’d say it’s not at all important. Things like reading books for fun and going “to museums or other local cultural pursuits” probably reflect his upbringing more than anything. In fact, there are studies that show that the #1 factor in whether adults go to museums is whether their parents took them as children. So as long as he’s willing to try things you are interested in, I don’t think it matters a lot if he would be doing those things on his own without your prodding.
And while it’s nice to have someone who can “challenge you on highly abstract concepts (such as those one would have learned in grad school level classes) or history/literature, etc.,” that role can be filled by friends or coworkers. Frankly, I think if you find someone with “an incredibly kind heart who treats you very well and adore you for these very things you possess, plus you have good chemistry and fun otherwise,” you are a very lucky woman.
That being said, I believe it is essential that you admire your partner. If, for some reason, you cannot admire–in any way or on any level–a man who does not meet your definition of “book smart,” then that is a problem.
Liana
“I believe it is essential that you admire your partner.” This, absolutely. If you don’t admire your partner, even if you love him/her, it won’t last.
mamabear
Happily married to a man who is not as book smart as I am (I’m a math nerd and a voracious reader – very left brain) but he’s an incredibly gifted and creative musician while I am strictly a note-reader when I play. So I have come to appreciate that there are many different kinds of intelligence.
Kanye East
For me, that’s just part of attraction. ;)
Shhhhh
One other factor is to consider how he deals with dating a woman who is, at least in someways, “smarter” than he is.
I’ve been in relationships with guys who are as “book smart” (if not more, or at least in different areas, so “book smart” can be deceptive) as me, and guys who aren’t. But I’ve never been in a relationship with anyone I didn’t think was smart in general. Where smart, to me, means some intellectual curiosity about a variety of things and the ability and drive to follow through on those interests.
That being said, my current sweetie, who does meet those qualifications, is probably the least “book smart” guy I’ve ever dated. And at the risk of sounding like a snob and getting flamed, it does get frustrating sometimes. NOT because I’m ’embarrassed’ or feel like we can’t carry on a conversation, but because HE’S the one who makes a big deal about it. He has a tendency to get defensive if I make a historical or literature reference he doesn’t get or use a 25-cent word when I could use a less precise 5-cent word . (Sorry, I’m a lawyer, I like using big words when I can ;-) ). However, he does also tell me frequently he’s impressed and proud of me.
I think a reason behind that is that he’s always considered himself the smart one in past relationships, so this is a big of a shock for him. Anyway, this is trailing off into a thread-jack, and he does have a lot of good qualities that the uber-smart guys lacked, but it’s something to also look out for. And really, it’s better than the guy I dated who was SHOCKED when I had a higher SAT score (we were both in our 30s, he asked!) and admitted that maybe I was smarter than him.
Homestar
This. Even if it doesn’t bother you, he has to be fine with it too. A lot of guys can’t handle dating someone who is perceived (by themselves and/or others) to be smarter. And that could be the dealbreaker, even if you handle it just fine.
Amelia Bedelia
I agree. though I truly think my husband is smarter than I am, albeit in less traditional ways, he spends a great deal of his time bragging on how brilliant I am to anyone who will listen! I find a man who is secure in who he is and proud of who is partner is incredibly sexy.
TK1
Are you married to my husband Amelia? He is always bragging about how smart I am to anyone who will listen.
For the OP my husband is not “book” smart, but is smart in many other ways that I love. He needs complete silence and no distractions to be able to read a book, so he rarely does. But he loves education TV, keeps up with news from around the world, likes classical music and has all these crazy skills that he learned in the army (like being able to sew leather!). Intelligence really has nothing to do with if you love someone, its all about being supportive and caring for each other!
Anonny non
Good point about how your SO handles your ‘smarts’ – I read a ton and write/research for my work, so I often pull out the ’25-cent words’ in my daily vocabulary. It doesn’t bother my highly educated math/stats oriented husband, but I’ve certainly dated engineers/science types in the past who were put off by that because they were so not verbally inclined, and haaaated to read.
Anon for This
My BF is accomplished (computer guy), but doesn’t have a college degree. Really the only books he reads, when he reads, are Clive Cussler and books about zombies. His ideal weekend activity (next to sleeping all day) would be futzing around with circuits and wire and engines and all manner of things I just don’t understand; but he also loves music and was 100% in when I wanted to start going to the opera, although metal is really his favorite. He’s also very creative and artistic.
I think the real question is whether this guy has ideas about things. If you give him the background of something he’s not familiar with, will he develop an opinion and discuss it intelligently? Does he have passions he can teach you more about?
Anastasia
I don’t think it’s too important. My DH is not nearly as “book smart” as I am, but he’s great, and loving, and fun, and I wouldn’t trade him for the world. I dated guys I had much more in common with, intellectually, it always either got boring or vaguely competitive.
DH and I have some non-intellectual hobbies in common, and we work in different parts of the same industry, so we have mutual conversation fodder. But more importantly, we have the same sense of humor, similar politics, similar family values, and complementary life goals, and we respect each other’s different strengths/interests.
tika55
I care about a few of those things. I knew that I liked my now-husband when I saw his gigantic…bookshelf. I don’t care whether he reads “literature”, I just want someone who reads as much as I do. I also like someone who is generally knowledgeable, if that makes sense. For example, my husband and I are always joking about Gedankens (i.e. thought experiments). It amuses me to have someone who can do that, but it doesn’t really require grad school level concepts per se. So I would say that it depends on what is important to you. But I would take the person that you describe above over a jerk who likes to read any day!
Amelia Bedelia
I have been married for years to a fabulously wonderful (and educated!) man . . . who does not read. At all. Seriously. He despises all books and only read sports info on the internet. I, on the other hand, am an avid reader of anything I can get my hands on (except romance – ick). He hates museums and thinks art is boring. I minored in art history in college! He cannot stand history or politics . . . yeah, you get the point . . .
That being said, he is the kindest, funniest, sexiest, most amazing man I have ever met. We do other things together and I am never ever bored with him. Do I wish I was married to someone who could appreciate the newest art exhibit in town with me? sure. but even more than that, I appreciate that I am married to a man who occasionally will visit museums with me and really try to appreciate the art, only because he loves me. I appreciate that he will take me to a symphony and struggle to stay awake just to see how much I enjoy it.
And over the years, I have realized that he is smarter than I am, just in a different way. I have enjoyed learning to appreciate his type of smarts!
in other words, I do not think it is important, BUT go in with your eyes open. he will not magically develope a love of reading or art. He may try to appreciate it for you, but he will never love it like you do. If you have plenty of other things you enjoy together, it’s okay to enjoy some things without him.
MelD
For me it’s all about intellectual curiosity. It’s completely normal to date men who don’t necessarily share my interests, but if a guy’s eyes glaze over every time I mention a topic with which he is not terribly familiar, that’s a turnoff. Hopefully if I date someone who has different skills and interests than I do, we can both learn something from each other.
Jas
It’s not at all important to me. When I got together with my current boyfriend, who is not at all “book smart”, I was surprized by how much I actually like that. My previous boyfriends were very much creative, cultural types, and I got tired of feeling like I was somehow not fully engaged with the world because I have no desire to do ~*art*~ and the books I read tend to be ones I choose because “I like it and it’s fun” instead of ones that are sufficiently po-mo. Instead, I’ve tried a whole bunch of activities that I never would have tried otherwise and he’s done the same when I’m choosing the outing.
The one thing that bugs me about it is that I love spending an afternoon just sitting in a coffee shop and reading. He’s not really into books, so sadly we don’t do that together, I just do it on our non-date days.
anon
Not at all important to me. Those things you list are in no way a measure of intelligence or someone’s value as a person/mate. If you like those things and want someone with similar interests, that’s perfectly natural. But the fact that you even have to ask that question suggests that you live in a very sheltered bubble. Break out of it.
I love to read, my husband hates it. He loves playing xbox and watching football. He is also a doctor. But that’s not in the top 100 reasons I married him and it’s actually kind of annoying at times. I am shocked that I married a doctor. I have always been attracted to blue collar guys. My husband has more of that kind of personality, he just happens to have a smarty pants type of trade. I personally don’t care much for art museums or “local cultural pursuits.” I’m a lawyer. Where do we stack up in your measure of intelligence/worthiness?
Ann
You just described me and my husband. I’m a couple of years older, more well-read, smarter (he’s no dummy, but it’s true), better educated (I’m a lawyer and he is applying for masters programs in finance), politically preoccupied, and have to drag him to things like plays and museums and anything on the weekends that doesn’t involve loud music, movies, and/or alcohol. Everyone who knows him, likes him, and there’s a reason for it. He’s got the warmest heart in anyone I’ve ever met. He’s very romantic and sentimental. He’s tons of fun. He can’t hold a grudge for longer than 5 minutes. He knows a h*ll of a lot more about getting along with others than most of the Ivy Leaguers I met. I have a bright light in my life and I thank God for it every day.
Follow your heart.
Divaliscious11
I don’t require that you’ve read any particular book, but you must be intellectually curious. My husband went to an inner city high school and I am constantly amazed that he hasn’t read books that were on my prep school summer reading list. That said, he has been to some of the most amazing places in the world, can discuss what he likes and dislikes about Gaudi and Picasso, is fluent in Spanish and is always interested in new learning and experiences. And he is wonderful to me and our kids.
Lucy
I think one of the biggest problems for a relationship is if one person thinks they are somehow ‘better’ than the other. Whether the cultural things you mention will make you see yourself as somehow superior to your SO is something only you can know, but I think it would be a deal breaker if the absence of those things made you think less of the other person or made you embarrassed of them.
W
My husband is a Good Man. He has many things that I find attractive in a mate: he fixes things, kills the bugs, makes me laugh, holds down a steady job, and is an amazing parent to our son. He has no desire to read “deep” books, couldn’t define an abstract concept, and turned down a free ride to college in favor of working in construction. We don’t chat philosophy, but I’m crazy about him.
If you love somebody, and you want the same goals, then differences in what you find interesting are VERY good, IMO. I will caution, it sounds like you may not respect a mate who doesn’t fit that intellectual role. A modern relationship will only work if you view each other as equals.
Lynnet
I need corporettes’ advice about how to handle an unintentional misrepresentation I made in an interview yesterday.
I was asked what my favorite class was in law school. I responded “Class A” and then immediately corrected myself and said, “actually, I meant Class B, Class A was fine, but I really loved Class B.” They’re very closely related subjects, so it was an understandable mistake. The problem, which didn’t occur to me until this morning, is that I didn’t take Class A for credit, I audited it. Class A is on a subject that would likely be a small part of my job duties, but it’s not important enough that I think they would make a hiring decision based on my having taken it.
So, what’s the appropriate way to handle this? I drafted an email this morning clarifying the situation, but haven’t sent it yet. This is about as close to the perfect job for me as I can imagine, and the interview went really well, so I don’t want to do anything to mess this up.
Bonnie
There’s nothing that needs to be handled. You’d just be drawing attention to it.
gina
You didn’t do anything wrong. Nothing to fix.
Lynnet
Thank you for reassuring me. I was torn between the “You must never, ever misrepresent anything in job interviews” part of my brain and the “It’s such a tiny part thing” part of my brain and couldn’t tell which I should listen to.
Coach Laura
TGIF!
Godzilla
Holler!
This
Fascinating!
JK
Today I ran out to the sandwich shop around the block from my office to grab a soda for lunch and a total stranger (mid-30s, well-dressed woman with baby in a stroller) stopped me and said, “the color of that coat is NOT flattering on you.” Stunned, I responded, “no?” and she shook her head, scrunched up her face in disgust and said, “no.”
Are people doing this now? What is this, fashion police? Who says it’s okay to approach total strangers and give them unsolicited insults?!?
BTW, the coat is a bright orangey-red (a very “in” color for spring) with toggle clasps. It’s cute!
WTF!
Bunkster
Ignore her. The coat sounds cute. She sounds like she sucks. The day is almost over (at least here in Boston). Have a drink when you get home.
anon
my more charitable take is that the woman recognized you for a fellow sister in style and felt like she was giving you good advice, the way she’d give it to a good girlfriend who cared about style as much as she did. in other words, if you struck her as a woman who didn’t care one way or the other how you looked, she’d never bother to say that.
still though, i agree it’s a weird thing to do.
Bunkster
I gotta say it would be one thing if the item were a scarf or some sort of accessory, but it’s another thing when it’s a big ticket item. A coat is an investment. She can’t just run out and get another one and if she’s in the Northeast, warmth takes precedence over style right now anyway.
I think she was rude. I wouldn’t tell someone she was wearing something unflattering unless I was specifically asked and – even then – I’d consider the person in question (e.g., I’d tell family, close friends and someone who seemed like they genuinely wanted my opinion).
nikkiesq
I like to think that I’d take it that way, too, but on the street I just don’t know if things would shake out that way.
I do wish it were okay to tell people that they’re wearing the wrong size bra, though.
anon
reminds me of when i was in high school and tried on a pair of editor pants at express. i came out of the fitting room and some stranger’s mother explained to me that because i’m so hippy and curvy i should never ever in my life wear pants with slash pockets. seriously, those pants were all wrong for other reasons–i didn’t need her wisdom. plus, I was literally a size zero then and i don’t think i had hips yet. i’ve never looked at pants with slash pockets the same. every time i try on a pair i hear her. disturbing.
anon
I was once babysitting a little girl and she looked at me very seriously and said, “You should never ever wear your hair down.” Sad! It was so cruel. Spoken from the mouth of a babe. Can’t wow people all the time… even the little ones.
mamabear
My son was once trying to describe someone to me and said,
“She’s fat. Not fat like you, Mom, but REALLY fat.”
anon
I love you, mamabear!
Anne Shirley
I was once asked how long I had been pregnant while babysitting. Child then poked my boob. Not pregnant!
a.
I definitely did this to my mom at least once. mamabear, you give me hope that she handled it with good humor.
bibliophile
This reminds me of a comment my younger (and at the time, quite young) male cousin made about my hair being prettier when it was straight. (I have naturally wavy/curly hair.)
Blonde Lawyer
One of my favorite prior assistants brought her precocious 6 year old to work a couple times one week during a brief child care crisis. (With prior permission, we all loved her, she was usually amazingly behaved.) She was one of those wise beyond her years kids like Dakota Fanning. An associate with super curly hair walked by (who usually wears it straight), and the 6 year old said “WOW, your hair is a MESS today.”
Another time, she was hanging with me in my office and looked under my desk, saw my shoe stash and said “you really need to bring your shoes home.” Months later, she dropped in to say hi, ran over to give me a hug, looked under my desk (I had brought the shoes home after that lol) and said “glad to see you cleaned up under there.” Poor mom was mortified at all of these comments of course but we loved them.
NOLA
My friend’s 6 year old grandsons were over at my house and one of them walked all over my house telling me what I needed to clean. He was also horrified that my rechargeable toothbrush was plugged in in the hallway. Oh well. We do what we have to do in old houses that have no outlets in the bathroom!
anon
Kids say the meanest things unintentionally . I have a lot of freckles on my face and a darling little girl who I absolutely adore once told me I look like a rotten banana. Her parents were horrified. I laughed but I also kind of wanted to cry :/
Former Clerk
Freckles are the cutest. I have some but wish I had more and that they weren’t just a spring-summer thing. (I also wish I could have them without it signifying sun damage, poop.) They’re one of my favorite physical features about myself. I hope you still love your freckles!
Anonymous4
Must have been something her mom or another important woman has said to her. THAT is sad.
Susan
Tell her, “your b*tchface and nasty attitude is not flattering.”
Paulas Choice questions
This happened to me once in the Ann Taylor dressing room. I had gained about 7 pounds and wasn’t feeling my best at the time. I wore a pair of pants and came out of the room, and the woman sitting out there said – oh, you definitely should not get those. They are really unflattering on you. Fellow shopper mind you, not the sales clerk thank goodness.
At the time, I just brushed it off (and I agree that they were unflattering, but still – I don’t need your unsolicited advice). Don’t give it a second thought, some people are just weird and rude.
Can't wait to quit
Ugh. I’ve asked fellow shoppers (strangers) for opinions in dressing rooms, but can’t imagine just giving unsolicited negative feedback.
Anon
Actually, I wouldn’t mind this. In the dressing room, before I’ve committed my $$, I’m actually really grateful for input. But once on the street, especially, as Bunkster mentions, for big-ticket items, I think the woman should have kept her mouth shut. There is also a difference between a statement, and a statement with facial commentary, as OP described.
You should have said that however unappealing, your coat was still prettier than her baby.
nikkiesq
Best. Response. Ever.
a.
YES.
Suited Up
Oh snap! I think she may have deserved that if you’d said it…what a rude lady! Hopefully she doesn’t teach her child that it’s socially acceptable to make unsolicited mean comments to strangers!
DA
The only thing I ever learned from anyone who hailed from the great state of Michigan is also the best way I have ever learned to respond to backhanded compliments:
I tell ’em “Ma’am, I don’t know how I feel about that comment.”
Usually the commenter melts into a pile of jello
Frustrated Academic
As I was waiting for the elevator in my building the other day, a stranger complemented me on how “real” my wig looked. I shook my head, made an inane comment about growing it out and prayed for the elevator to come faster. The stranger then told me how lucky I was that I would not be bald at 70.
Why would one say to that–as a 30ish Caucasian women the most obvious reasons I would be wearing a wig would be either medical or religious–neither of which seem like topics you’d discuss with a stranger. I blame the anonimity of the internet, it’s caused people to lose their filters!
Frustrated Academic
And to be clear, I was not wearing a wig–merely suffering from stocking cap head!
J
LMAO.
Kady
I’m perplexed by the stranger’s comments. What does wearing a wig have to do with being bald at 70? Sheesh!
Anon
This made me laugh and laugh. Your hair, it looks … almost real!
People are really random.
soulfusion
wow! that’s just bizarre! Last summer, while I was in chemo and very bald (and I did not wear a wig) I was on a plane and shortly after the woman next to me sat down she turned to me and said “why are you bald? is it cancer?” I was stunned.
Esquirette
I can’t put my finger on exactly what should go in the blank but that was definitely a ______ FAIL.
Former Clerk
GOD. F*** people sometimes, seriously. I’ll be sorry on her behalf, okay?
soulfusion
it was shocking but I just chalk it up as a funny story at this point. There is a message board I check out occasionally for young adults with cancer and they have an amazing (and horrifying) list of stupid things people say to you when you have cancer. I can relate to many of them but some are just so insane.
Anoun
That is horrible and totally one of those things where I would have responded just like you did and then later thought of all these crazy-clever come-backs. Ugh. People are lame sometimes. Your coat sounds awesome. I want it!
phillygirlruns
how bizarre. that coat sounds fabulous. i happen to be wearing a glaringly orange/red blazer today (j.crew hacking jacket in “flame” tweed).
Makeup Junkie
I feel sorry for the baby in the stroller. Can you imagine a lifetime with a mother like that? Not in the least bit sympathetic to the feelings of strangers, she’s not going to be kind to her children either. Poor baby.
Your coat actually sounds pretty fabulous and you’ve got tons of chutzpah to carry off that color. I wish I wore coats in a color other than black or grey!
L
Okay, we’ve all agreed she was rude. Is there any chance she was also…right? Not to be snarky, I’m just wondering. Because orangey-red looks HORRIBLE on me.
CN
I would have had a choice and colorful phrase for her. And most likely an *unflattering* colorful phrase.
spacegeek
Wow that is terrible! I think that woman was way out of line to offer a criticism! Compliment strangers–yes!! It can make someone’s day. But criticize? I believe that falls into the “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything!” Sorry you had to experience that. I feel sad for you and also for that woman who feels she was within her rights!
AG
I agree it was rude of the woman. I also agree that you need to just ignore any lunatic who randomly comes up to you and says something like that.
I also think, however, that it’s possible the coat is not flattering on you.
JessC
Give her the Jenna Marbles face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wRXa971Xw0
JK
I hope so! It was SUCH an odd interaction. Is it a full moon or something?!
Oops
WHAT??? That is so ridiculous. I’m sorry, what a weirdo.
Oops
In response to JK
Paulas Choice questions
I finally took the plunge and transitioned from Cetaphil to Paula’s Choice, after seeing so many people here rave about her products. I bought several samples and have questions about what products to purchase:
1. I have very good skin and rarely break out, BUT I have an oily T zone. Do you recommend the Hydralight or Skin Balancing Cleanser?
2. What is the point of using a toner? I used it this past week and can’t see any difference one way or the other.
3. Does anyone find the daily exfoliation too harsh? My skin has been flaking a lot this week and doesn’t look all that great, honestly. Does this go away eventually? Do some of you just exfoliate a few times a week, not every day?
TIA. :)
SF Bay Associate
I have used Paula’s Choice for a couple years now. I also have very good skin and rarely break out, but do get an oily Tzone and blackheads in my nose pores (sorry, TMI maybe). I use the Skin Balancing system. The toner… she explains its purpose on the site, but frankly I didn’t bother to read it. I just use it – it only takes another 30 seconds in the routine. I also use the 1% (or is it 2%) gel once a day and do not find it to be too harsh, but of course, your skin and mine are different :). Flaking sounds bad! Chat with them and see what they think.
J
I use the skin balancing system. I have acne periodically, but I think that for any oily t-zone, skin balancing is a good choice. The skin balancing line also basically has gotten rid of my acne. I previously used the anti-acne line and discovered that I’m allergic to AHA (benzoyl peroxide) and that the toner from that line had a preservative I’m allergic to as well (sulfites; I have a severe sulfite allergy). Since switching to skin balancing I’ve basically had no breakouts or rashes.
The toner has a lot of ingredients that are good for your skin. Basically the cleanser washes off the nasty stuff you don’t want on there, and the toner then adds some healthy stuff that remains on your skin. The toner feels really nice and lightly moisturizing to me, and I love the way my skin feels after using it – definitely much softer than after washing without using toner.
I don’t use the daily exfoliation every day. (I use the 1% BHA – salicylic acid – which comes with the skin balancing line.) I use it as a spot treatment on any pimples, and then I put it all over my face about twice a week. I find it too drying for every day use. I also don’t use the antioxidant serum all over my face – I am mostly worried about wrinkles under and around my eyes, so I only use it there, every night, and use a different eye cream during the day (sorry Paula – I disagree that there’s no need for eye cream). I also don’t use the moisturizing gel; it’s ok, but it’s not any better than my Neutrogena moisturizer for sensitive skin, which is much cheaper.
Overall I’ve seen a dramatic, almost unbelievable improvement in my skin since I started using the skin balancing line. I’ll never go back. If you want to check out more reviews, there are a lot of unbiased reviews on Makeup Alley. I wouldn’t trust the reviews on Paula’s Choice site, because they are moderated and I think they don’t post negative ones (I submitted a few reviews, and the most negative one was never posted).
J
By the way, in the morning I use a Clinique sunscreen and face cream – not the skin balancing one. I’ve never tried the skin balancing one, but my Clinique one is great so I have no reason to switch.
OP
Thank you both for the comprehensive and helpful reviews! I am using the 2% antioxidant and that might be what is causing the flaking. Or, perhaps I need to cut it down to twice a week. I do notice that my skin feels smoother, so I think it’s a good idea to use it but perhaps I need to cut down the frequency.
There are so many conflicting views on eye cream that I don’t know what to think! I know that Paula thinks it is bogus, but I would like to start using one. Or can you just use a heavier moisturizer (does it have to be eye cream)?
J
Is it an AHA or BHA exfoliant? (Benzoyl peroxide or salicylic acid, respectively.) Many people are allergic to AHA/benzoyl peroxide. I had severe redness and peeling from it; your flaking could be a milder reaction. I don’t think it’s common to be allergic to salicylic acid, although I remember reading that people who are allergic to aspirin are also going to be allergic to salicylic acid.
I like Clinique’s All About Eyes cream because it’s very moisturizing and it also has this shimmery effect that makes me look a bit less puffy and tired. I think Paula’s right that most eye creams that claim to de-puff don’t really work, so if you are looking just for moisture, I think a heavier moisturizer will do the trick.
Mel
Just wanted to clarify one point from the previous poster. AHA and Benzoyl Peroxide are NOT the same thing. I am allergic to benzoyl peroxide (it gives me a red, itchy rash), and am able to use Paula’s Choice AHA exfoliants with out any problems.
I LOVE Paula’s Choice products, once you find the right combination I think you will be very pleased with your skin!
Susan
Love this Reiss clutch! I am using all of my (limited) willpower to resist…
Anonymous
In reference to a previous post – if there are any tips that anyone would like to share on how to (or how NOT to) to handle a high-risk pregnancy or other medical condition that involves regular absences from the office, while continuing to be hard-working/competent/around for the long haul, please feel free to share.
I’m especially interested in how this can be managed well in a smaller office – where the issue is not trying to get HR to protect your rights, but where you’re trying to keep your reputation among your peer and supervisors in the face of a months-long (or longer) personal medical issue.
Can't wait to quit
Assuming that you able to keep up with your work, perhaps make sure to add additional “face time”? In other words, if you need to leave the office for a couple of hours during the day for an appointment, make sure to stay late that day, so people can really see that you’re making an extra effort. That should counter any “she’s never here” talk.
ToughPregnancy
I had a tough pregnancy (hyperemesis) and struggled with this. I would offer an alternative on the “face time” suggestion. When you are in the office, make a point to make the rounds. I found that people I worked with regularly had no concerns about my condition, but it helped to be visible to those who I had less opportunities to impress with my work product.
I also made it clear that I would be working from home once a week (whatever day I felt the worst). On those days, I had my calls forwarded to my cell, and responded to emails immediately so no one had reason to question that I was dedicated, even at home.
Roommate Trouble
I posted a few days back about a sticky situation with a friend who let me move in with her, and then turned into a slob (very short and not entirely accurate summary, but those of you who remember the post will know what I’m talking about).
Anyway, I vaccuumed our apartment the other day, since I was going to lose my mind and it was the only non-passive aggressive form of cleaning I could think of, as it didn’t require moving their stuff or cleaning any of the space she and her boyfriend had commandeered. The next day, I came home and the apartment was spotless! She had cleaned everything up and was waiting at home for me with an apology, saying that my vaccuuming inspired her to tackle her mess and that she felt bad that I’d been putting up with it for so long.
Thanks for the advice you all gave (I’m still looking to the maid idea, just in case this doesn’t hold). At least she’s aware of it now and hopefully it’s smooth sailing for the next few months until I move out!
DC Association
Great outcome! I am sure that was a relief!
J
Congrats! I’d just ask if she wants to split the cost of a cleaning service once or twice a month. Can’t hurt to ask, and it shouldn’t be too expensive.
Research, Not Law
LOL, that’s great!
TechAnon
Wow, that’s great! Who knew vacuuming could be such a power for good?
SBD
Hmmm.
*considers vacuuming office*
Margaret
I’m so frustrated right now, I could cry. Or maybe I’m just hormonal. :) I’ve finally reached the stage in my career (6th year Biglaw associate) where I get significant control over some of my cases, and I have two big opportunities coming up. On Monday, I’m presenting the client’s position at a settlement conference, and I’ll be doing another similar presentation in February. Both in different substantive areas where I’ve gained significant expertise. But I’ve been so sick with morning sickness that I’ve yet to start preparing for Monday’s conference, and I’m panicking that I’m going to be underprepared. I really don’t want to give up the opportunity and, honestly, it’s not an option. The partner on the case knows I’ve been sick; he also, frankly, doesn’t have the substantive experience to take over the case, so I have to make it work one way or the other. I’m just getting really stressed about it, and spent all morning and early afternoon curled up in a ball despite being on Zofran. I’m at 13 weeks now, and had been feeling good for weeks 10-12, so I’m freaking out about the backsliding at such a key time.
a passion for fashion
I have sympathy for you, as I have been there, with both pregnancies. (With my sencond, I had to tell a partner I work for at 8 weeks after he found me in the fetal position on the floor of my office.) I dont know that I have a ton of advice except to take your Zofran around the clock from now through your presentation; eat only what you can just to get through the day; skip your prenatals if they are causing you to be sick (or buy some over the counter gummy prenatals) and then just try to power through the work. I also found that pre-natal yoga (and Im not a yoga person) helped a little. So if you have a guy or studio nearby and can go to a class, try that.
Margaret
This is helpful, thanks. I think that I have just been lucky so far because, although I had debilitating m/s during weeks 6-9, my work gave me the weeks off, so I didn’t have to try to work through it. I’m just so nervous that I’ll mess up this big opportunity!
I’ve been using the Zofran sparingly, but this is probably the time (if there ever was one) to just kick it up. I’m going to try skipping my prenatals as well just for the weekend to see if it helps.
Samantha
When I was pregnant, the iron in my prenatals made me throw up. I changed to a prenatal that wasn’t so harsh on my system- New Chapter brand. You can find it at whole foods. If you end up liking it, vitacost dot com has it for much less. Take care!
Anonny non
Have you asked your doctor about the unisom/B6 option? I’ve heard for some people it works as well as, if not better than Zofran. Also – Zofran can give you pretty icky headaches as a side effect – if you’ve cut out caffeine entirely, maybe ask your doctor about a cup of coffee or a soda once a day to try to counteract the headache (personally tylenol did nothing for me, but YMMV).
Also – and you’re probably already doing this – but eat very very regularly. Like every 2 hours at the most. For me, waiting until I was already hungry was too late.
Margaret
Oh, yes. I eat every two hours like clockwork. I have tried all the OTC remedies — gingers, peppermints, sour candies — and they did absolutely nothing for me when I had severe m/s during weeks 6-9. I had heard good things about Unisom, but doesn’t it make you drowsy? I won’t be able to do that the day of (though it is tempting right now, as I’m exhausted from not sleeping well the past few nights).
Anonymous
Try eating before you get out of bed in the morning. Seriously. Still lying down, eat a granola bar or something. It really helps with morning sickness.
Anon
Exactly what worked for me – kept a stash of plain cookies on bedside table and ate a few before I even sat up. Drank some ginger ale too before getting out of bed. Really helped.
Blonde Lawyer
Never been pregnant but I do have a digestive disorder that occasionally tries to interfere with my work. This goes against a lot of usual advise but it is what works for me personally. If I am not feeling well, and I’m going to be stuck in a room doing important stuff, I tell the group “I just have to let you know that I have a medical condition that is acting up a bit today and I may need to take more breaks than usual. If I interrupt to take a bathroom break, it is because I have to. Please don’t think I’m interrupting you strategically or anything. Thanks for understanding.” So far it has been extremely well received. I also then feel way less anxious about having to interrupt multiple times to run to the bathroom or not paying attention b/c I’m too stressed about going to the bathroom etc.
One time, when the people in the room were doctors, I mentioned what the medical condition was. Other times I just use the vague “medical conditions.” I’ve only had two or so people ask me later what it was. I thought it was a bit rude but they seemed genuinely concerned and I disclosed it.
None of this helps with your preparation but it might help with pre-event anxiety and how to get through the event. Just put it out there, and take as many breaks as you need to. I know some hate us “entitled medical condition people” but they way I look at it, I’m stuck with this, it is a real condition, and I’m not going to suffer in pain when a two minute break would make me feel much better.
Margaret
This is really helpful, and brings up a point I hadn’t even focused on: I’ve been so worried about getting through the weekend feeling well enough to prepare, I hadn’t even considered yet how I will get through the meeting. I suspect that it is best to just be straightforward at the beginning that I am pregnant and need to eat regularly to keep the nausea at bay? (I’ll be the only woman in the room, so I don’t know if they’ll take this at face value or think it is weird?)
Then, should I attempt to eat during the meeting? Or take regular breaks? FWIW, my nausea is really curbed only by protein-heavy snacking, so discreet things like a handful of banana chips or string cheese doesn’t really do anything for me. I need spoonfuls of peanut butter, or a 1/4 cup of black beans, or beef jerky, or a small can of tuna …
Margaret
Wow, I’m going to have to pack a second briefcase full of food just to get through the day!
Anonymous
Will protein bars (like weight trainers eat) work?
Working Girl
Take breaks to eat. I remember ducking into random cubicles to eat bananas and hard boiled eggs during meetings when I was pregnant. I once even ate in the bathroom when I was really desperate, but I don’t recommend that with MS. You don’t have to do it in the room in front of everyone. I think you can tell them you are pg if necessary, but I also think it’s ok to say you need breaks and then just go snack. When I did share that I was pg, I found guys to be very understanding in things like depositions, mediations, etc. When I was pumping, I sometimes would say I needed a medical break, and other times I would say I needed to pump, depending on who was at the other side of the table. They always we super accommodating.
anon
I hate to ask a personal question, but do you mind giving a hint as to your condition? I have had occasional but severe digestive issues for some time now and despite a battery of tests and doctors have no answers. Just cross my fingers that it wont happen on a busy day as I usually cant leave the house.
TCFKAG
Anon — I have Crohn’s Disease (and I’m fairly certain B.L. does as well and is okay posting that on here since she has posted it before).
A few questions:
(1) Have you seen a gastroenterologist.
(2) Have you had a colonoscopy — frequently that’s the only way to definitively diagnose many digestive issues.
I would strongly suggest going to the CCFA’s website and reading up on the different types of IBD (crohn’s and colitis) as well as IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) and then get ye to a good GI!
Coach Laura
I have to put in a word about celiac disease. If you’re going to have a colonoscopy you should have an endoscopy at the same time (no additional prep needed and the gastroenterologist can do both in the same session) and have biopsies done for celiac. It is very under-diagnosed and can mimic both IBS-D and IBS-C. Celiac has such a weird presentation – could be anemia, stomach/intestine issues, joint pain, neuro issues, migranes etc. It is also possible to have celiac and Chrons or celiac and colitis at the same time – oh joy! Celiac is an autoimmune disease, so if one has other AI diseases (RA, MS, Hashimoto thyroid, Type I diabetes) celiac is a greater possibility.
Good luck for resolution. Celiac has one great feature and that is that it can be controlled without drugs by adopting a gluten-free diet.
Blonde Lawyer
It is Crohn’s Disease. Took me 10 years to get diagnosed. My diagnosis came mostly from symptom description and a brave doctor willing to try me on the Crohn’s medicine before we even got a definitive diagnosis. He also had me take an IBD Promesthus blood test which is a bit controversial in the medical world. Some think it is unreliable, others think it is a great diagnostic tool. The problem is, there are many false negatives, but there are few false positives. Insurance companies don’t like to pay for it because if it is negative, you learn nothing. He convinced my insurance to pay for it and I tested off the charts positive for Crohns.
My colonoscopy showed inflammation and ulceration but no granulomas. Apparently, some doctors wont say “this is for sure crohns” without a granuloma present. But, the ulcers, inflamation, and blood test combined with me getting healthier every day I was on the meds convinced him to just call it Crohns. I have an asterisk somewhere in my medical chart that says it is a 98% diagnosis or something. I tested negative for lactose intolerance and celiacs but my Crohns is managed so much better when I stay LF/GF.
Many doctors tried to tell me that changing my diet wouldn’t help but I learned very quickly that what I ate directly correlated with my symptoms. I cut out spicy food, fried food, fatty food, , alcohol, caffeine, milk chocolate, at the time nuts, dairy, etc. For a few years I ate really bland. I drank a lot of smoothies, apple sauce, at the time toast, rice, pasta, pedialyte, boiled chicken, etc. Now I am able to eat raw and cooked veggies, healthy meats, some alcohol, still no coffee.
I’m sorry to hear you are struggling undiagnosed. Keep searching for a doctor who will take you seriously. The only reason I got diagnosed is a because I moved, needed to find a new GI, and my new primary took a look at all the symptoms I mentioned in my regular check up and said “this is unacceptable, we have to find out what is wrong with you” and worked with a good GI to get to the bottom of it.
Lastly, if you do get diagnosed, do a ton of research. Read about liquid diets (I can recommend a book.) There are a lot of VERY expensive medicines for Crohns that I think doctors are way too quick to prescribe that have very bad side effects. I still take a daily maintenance med. But, I’ve had doctors ask “why aren’t you on remicade?” Well, Remicade is a $10,000/month IV infused drug that requires you to hang out in the hospital for a day. It should be reserved for the most severe cases. I am 90% in remission. There is no reason I need such a big gun except to make the docs money.
They are also very quick to prescribe steroids for flares. With my docs permission, I can treat a flare with a liquid/soft diet for a few days. I have avoided steroids at least 5 times this way. Other docs are less supportive of this treatment. I was shocked to learn there is a prescription liquid diet, made in the US to treat IBD that is prescribed all over the world EXCEPT in the US because the FDA wont approve it here. What other reason could they have except that it is cheap? My daily maintenance med is $2000/month without insurance. The FDA doesn’t want people in 100% remission.
Lastly, I learned a ton from the forums at healingwell.com. There are separate forums for crohns, colitis, IBS, GERD, and tons of other chronic illnesses.
Anonymous
Thanks so much for your responses. I have had a colonoscopy and endoscopy, as well as abdominal ultrasound, blood test, and cultures of sample. The results have continued to be -” nothing really showing up, maybe it’s IBS.” The thing is I have both upper and lower GI symptoms that flare up simultaneously, and severely, but only once every couple months, and between episodes I am completely fine. This doesn’t sound like IBS to me (and the doctors admit it’s not typical for IBS) and I am not happy to just accept that there is no real answer. It seems like my gastro has run out of tests to do though. Very frustrating to live in fear of the next episode. People have suggested it could be stress related, but there has been no correlation between episodes and the times I have been most stressed (i.e. no problem during the bar exam, did have issue during post-bar, pre-work 3 months off when I didnt feel stressed at all.)
Could these symptoms be Crohn’s or celiac – as spread out as they are? and is it possible the colonoscopy/endoscopy wouldn’t catch it?
Thanks again and in advance for your thoughtful responses and ideas and being willing to share your experiences.
Coach Laura
It could be celiac. I was undiagnosed for about 30 years and was able to complete undergrad, grad school, work and raise kids but it did get to be a burden.
Celiac tests have a high failure rate (i.e. false negatives). Some celiac medical experts think that there is a continuum of the disease from very mild to moderate to severe.
Luckily, the do-it-yourself test for celiac is easy and doesn’t need a doctor’s prescription or approval – just go strictly gluten-free for at least 3-4 weeks. You might try cutting dairy at the same time as there are overlapping intolerances for gluten and casein/lactose.
A good primer is on the Gluten-Free Goddess’s site. Good luck! http://glutenfreegoddess.blogspot.com/p/how-to-go-g-free.html
Blonde Lawyer
You may want to ask your doc if those blood tests included the promesthus IBD markers test. As I said above, the test is controversial. Just because you had blood tests doesn’t mean you had that one.
You could also talk to your doc about food sensitivity testing. There are blood tests that test IGA sensitivity that just like the promesthus test is controversial and not totally accepted by all in the medical community. I have heard great things about sage labs in Florida but my insurance doesn’t cover it so I haven’t done it. They test for over 150 sensitivities. Through process of elimination, I’ve realized I’m very sensitive to avocado. Keep in mind that a food reaction can crop up 3-5 days after you eat it so it is not always obvious what the trigger is.
I had a friend who turned out to be allergic to all corn products, corn starch, corn syrup, and he had been wrongly diagnosed with crohns when it was really a corn allergy causing crohns like symptoms. Another was just diagnosed with a soy allergy though she had no prior diagnosis. She was just sick all the time, wasting away and had major skin issues from all the soy in face products.
What you describe also sounds a bit like diverticulits. If your symptoms come and go, were you tested when they were active? If you have mild crohns, the inflammation may have healed before your scopes.
Anon
You sound so much like me! I’ve been dealing with digestive problems my whole life, but it comes and goes. I have severe lower right side pain at times, which can be a symptom of Crohn’s, but I’ve had all the scopes and the Prometheus test and they were negative. I also have ongoing trouble with B12 deficiency even though I eat plenty of meat, which also suggests that my intestinal problems are responsible for the lack of absorption. Everything has been chalked up to IBS, which is just what they say when they don’t know what else to blame it on. Just wanted to say that you’re not alone!
PT Lawyer
Decluttering…. does anyone know the best/cheapest place to buy moving boxes? Online and delivered would be best.
J
I bought some on UHaul’s website once and had them delivered. However, it’s not cheap – the cheapest way is to go to liquor and grocery stores in person and ask for them.
karenpadi
This. Sometimes, you need to tell the grocery store the night before (when the night shift comes on around 9pm or 10pm) to save boxes and pick them up in the morning (before 8am).
An
Second. Also the liquor store boxes are such a good size for book – much easier to deal with than big boxes.
MeliaraofTlanth
And super sturdy. Liquor boxes are definitely my preferred moving box. Plus, great for packing glasses so they don’t break.
SF Bay Associate
Yep, those are the best boxes. If you live near a winery, they are often happy to give a customer a bunch of empty boxes with a very modest purchase. And if you’re at the winery at the right time of the year, they are so eager to get rid of the boxes that they’ll give you as many as you want, just for stopping by, tasting their wines, and being friendly.
Shaw
Try Uhaul online. They have packing supply kits. Not sure how their costs compare. Also, many local moving companies will deliver box/tape/etc to you.
SV in House
Check out craigslist, people often give away moving boxes after one use.
ADL
I’ve purchased from uline dot com before, usually next day delivery right to the front door (but usually not inside unless you pay for it).
You can also google “used moving boxes” and several websites pop up.
Snarky In House
Liquor store or starbucks… no joke
KC
Second liquor stores – also, really many stores – i work at a bike/running shop, and we have an abudance of boxes we give to customers who need. find your friendly neighborhood small business and ask them. Seems like a silly think to have t spend money on.
Batgirl
Used cardboard boxes (dot) com! Relatively cheap, good quality and they deliver! Even send some tape, a marker, and an exacto knife! Be warned, they’re heavy when they arrive!
Plan B
Second used cardboard boxes (dot) com! I got a bunch of boxes from them at one point that lasted me through several long-distance moves (before I gave them away to a neighbor who was moving).
Another Senior Associate
You can also buy packing boxes at Home Depot. Cheaper than U-Haul!
Maple
Freecycle!
Ellie
Be cautious getting any from another person you don’t know who has moved. Think: roaches, bed bugs, anything else that could possibly find its way into your possessions. I’d stick with liquor stores over Freecycle.
Aria
I recently moved from a law firm to in-house, where we don’t have a document management system. Everyone just saves things to their hard drives or to shared drives. My boss doesn’t seem to understand how share drives work and doesn’t cc me on any emails or documents (depsite me repeatedly asking…the boss just keeps forgetting). So since the boss is the only one with some of these documents, I’m really concerned that our entire department is relying on the hard drive not crashing. Do you ladies have any recommendations on how to deal with a technology-challenged boss? Or how to convince a boss to cc you on emails and documents, if for nothing else than to make sure more than one person has something in case something awful happens to the boss or the computer?
Are you me?
Or am I you? I left an AmLaw 200 firm for a government in-house office and have had the same issue for several years.
I was able to institute an electronic filing system on our server that mirrors the hard filing system my boss set up many years ago (using department/matter names and numbers). I then created a folder on our server called “Case Files” with sub-folders for each matter. Now, I am keenly aware that I am basically the only person who saves documents to these e-folders. The secretary does when I tell her to. Also, I am the only one who follows the naming convention for files that I made up: a letter from me to you written today would be called “12-1-20 letter from me to you.”
However, hope springs eternal. EVERY TIME my boss asks for my comments on a document, or asks me for a copy of a document, or asks to see a document etc., I do my work on the server, save the document as I just described, and then send her an email saying “the letter is on the server, it is under Case Files/Matter Smith/”12-1-19 letter from me to you.” I am specific about the path because remembering the path or navigating the path seems to be difficult for her.
I suspect some would call what I do passive aggressive. And there are many documents for which she is responsible that I am sure exist solely on her hard drive. Nothing I can do about that. But I will not contribute to it.
What else have you tried? Any other ideas? I would love to know. Thanks.
Ooh, one other idea: does your department have malpractice coverage? (We don’t because we are a government agency.) If you do, they might have requirements that will provide the proper incentive.
Midwest
Does your IT department regulate this stuff? Maybe they can help you get the message across that everything needs to be backed up on a shared drive.
Another S
Oh my goodness, I am in the same situation and feel your pain. No suggestions but hope others can recommend a good document management system or even contract lifecycle management software. TIA!
Jas
Maybe an external harddrive that just stays plugged into his/her computer that’s set up to automatically back up whichever folders need it on a daily/weekly basis. I know when I got my external harddrive that was an option to set it up. There are online services to do the same thing.
Jax
See if your IT dept will have a chat with your boss re: best practices. They should be current on the data storage rules and will frown on storing critical docs to a local drive.
Anonymous
Perhaps frame it as a liability issue, since you’re counsel? Say they need to have shared drives to avoid losing files that are legally required to be maintained, for example?
karenpadi
Hopefully this isn’t too buried already.
Silicon Valley Corporettes!
Please save the date for a March 24th meet-up in the afternoon. Unless there is major dissent, I propose Palo Alto again. If anyone has restaurant or venue ideas, let me know.
One idea: the Cantor Center at Stanford has a free docent-led tour of the Rodin Sculptures on Saturday at 11:30am (google for more info). Would people be interested in that? (Plus, it’s a great date venue and this would be a chance to scope it out.)
SF Bay Associate
You know I’m into the PA location :). The Rodin Sculptures tour sounds great, and the price is lovely, but a tour that starts at X time might make it hard for ladies who can’t arrive on time for whatever reason, or have to leave early for whatever reason, to attend. We had lovely corporettes trickling in for quite some time at our first meetup, and I’d hate for anyone to think, dang, I can’t get there by X time, so bummer, I guess I’ll miss this one!
CA lawyer
That sounds great. The Rodin sculpture collection is small enough that it’d be easy to find the group if one is joining late (unless the tours also goes up to the Rodins in the Quad, but I think that’s unlikely). The Cool Cafe, which is right next to the Rodin sculpture garden, would be a great place to hang out after the tour. I’ll try to find out what time the tour ends so people who can’t/don’t want to make the tour can join then. My guess is that the tour will be over by 12:15. Stanford has the biggest collection of Rodins outside of France, but it’s not enormous.
SBD
Adding date to calendar.
Lauren L.
I would love to join! I am actually a 2L in law school in the midwest, but looking to relocate to Silicon Valley after law school. My boyfriend moved out there last summer, and I definitely need to work on networking, and I was already planning to be in the area that weekend over spring break. Will you keep me in the loop regarding any updates? lauren dot luhrs at gmail dot com
Lynnet
Reposting to avoid moderation, since this is somewhat time sensitive.
I need corporettes’ advice about how to handle an unintentional misrepresentation I made in an interview yesterday.
I was asked what my favorite class was in law school. I responded “Class A” and then immediately corrected myself and said, “actually, I meant Class B, Class A was fine, but I really loved Class B.” They’re very closely related subjects, so it was an understandable mistake. The problem, which didn’t occur to me until this morning, is that I didn’t take Class A for credit, I audited it. Class A is on a subject that would likely be a small part of my job duties, but it’s not important enough that I think they would make a hiring decision based on my having taken it.
So, what’s the appropriate way to handle this? I drafted an email this morning clarifying the situation, but haven’t sent it yet. This is about as close to the perfect job for me as I can imagine, and the interview went really well, so I don’t want to do anything to mess this up.
I should note that I’m on mountain time, so I have about 3 hours before close of business today to address this.
ssc
Perhaps I’m missing something, but I really don’t see that there is anything that needs to be “handled,” and I think the email that you are contemplating sending will do much more harm than good.
sadie
Exactly what ssc said.
TechAnon
Agreed. “What was your favorite class?” is one of those questions interviewers use to open up discussion. If you had said, “Accounting 101” it might have led to a tangent about your love of numbers AND the law, but distinguishing between two similar law classes was probably forgettable to the interviewer.
You’re way overthinking this; let it go. Good luck in your job search!
cfm
oh my goodness relax hun! dont send an email
SV in House
Hi ladies, I wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone who responded to my question last week about volunteer scheduling software. I looked like a rockstar to the event lead when I gave her the report and recommendations.
DC Association
I totally missed this post – what was the recommendation? I need something similar. Thanks!
SV in House
Shiftboard (http://www.shiftboard.com/), which is used by the SF Film Festival; Volunteer Spot (http://www.volunteerspot.com/index); and Eventbrite.
Also see http://blogs.volunteermatch.org/engagingvolunteers/2011/12/07/finding-the-right-volunteer-management-software/ and http://www.ncg.org/s_ncg/bin.asp?CID=18670&DID=51427&DOC=FILE.PDF
Liz
I have a question about wardrobe downsizing. I’m moving in with my boyfriend, and we will not have nearly as much closet space as I have had for the last few years. I have accumulated a ton of clothing after 7 years of school in a row (so lots of casual clothing), a year of clerking (wore a suit every day), and now 1.5 years at a firm (mostly the dressier side of business casual). I hate to get rid of things not knowing what I might still want in the future based on a job change or just change in tastes. For instance, I probably only need one or two pairs of jeans tops, but I still have about ten from my days of wearing jeans daily. Also, so so so many shoes. Any tips?
Frump
Love everything and have everything fit well. I think those are the two best sorting criteria that should get rid of quite a lot of wardrobe bulk. If something doesn’t really fit, unless you love it, it’s extremely good quality, or it fits perfectly, get rid of it. But, I think almost most importantly, if you don’t really love it, don’t really keep it.
I am trying to get to a point where I love everything in my wardrobe. As in, wish I could wear everything all at once. This often means shopping less and being more organized about purchases, but since I’ve started doing this, I have less junk (ex., things that don’t fit, things I’m iffy about and never wear, things that are not great quality, things that are damaged but I am keeping for keeping’s sake), fewer things in general, more space, and more happiness about everything I wear.
Put a slightly different way, keep the things that fit best, that you love most, and that are the best quality. Keep things that coordinate. Keep things you wear often. Keep things that can be worn in multiple ways. If it doesn’t fit those criteria, be hoenst with yourself about it and let it go.
Nonny
Actually, I’m going through this myself. My strategy is borrowed from a couple of de-cluttering blogs that I’ve been reading, and involves putting things into three piles.
Pile 1: Things I love and wear often.
Pile 2: Things that I have but don’t really know why.
Pile 3: Things I don’t wear, for whatever reason.
Pile 1 gets kept. Pile 2 gets put in the basement for a few months, then if I don’t miss it during that time, it gets donated. Pile 3 gets donated without another thought.
It takes some discipline, especially since I really like most of the things I have, but the kicker is – do I wear them? In many cases, I don’t. If I don’t wear something, I obviously don’t need it. After all, how many pairs of black pants can I wear at once? So far it has worked really well. I am actually doing a version of this in my entire house and am shocked at how much crap I am getting rid of.
Research, Not Law
This is essentially what I do. In your situation, I would do it separately for your three wardrobes.
Research, Not Law
ETA: I also have a Pile 4: Things that I love and wear often… but really shouldn’t.
gina
This is more or less the same thing I do too.
KinCA
I realize I’m just enabling you to keep as many clothes as possible, but look into “slim” hangers – you can really maximize your closet space that way. Also, look into those hangers that allow you to hang 5 or so pairs of pants at a time; those were a lifesaver in a tiny college dorm closet. Lastly, I have an embarrassing amount of clothes and save closet space by hanging two thin strap tank tops on one hanger.
But I agree with the previous poster; in general, only keep what you love and what fits well. I’m actually sort of looking forward to my next move because it will force me to weed out what I actually like in my closet and what’s just hanging in there!
Liz
Thanks for all the tips! And I already have slim hangers and every other kind of space saver imaginable, so unfortunately I really do need to get rid of stuff. Boyfriend was shocked the first time he saw my closet open!
mamabear
I have a small closet, so I have to change it out at the end of cold vs. warm seasons. During the change-out, if I’m handling something I didn’t wear the entire season, I don’t store it again. I get rid of it. I will make exceptions for formalwear because some years I have formal occasions and some years I don’t. I also save one or two truly expensive items (Armani suit, for instance) that I’m not wearing because they don’t suit my current lifestyle (business casual) or weight, but seriously, only one or two items. Not twelve.
I have come to realize after all these years that if I’m not wearing something now, I’m not going to change my mind about it in a couple of years. It will probably not be current then, anyway. I have learned this most recently from unpacking a few boxes in my attic I had forgotten about and seriously questioning myself about why on earth I had saved these items. Well, I know why. Paid money for them, almost never wore them, they’re practically new. But that’s still no reason to save them.
Donate them, let someone else have the excitement of a great find at the thrift store, and enjoy the tax deduction.
Shoes. I do save those. I sort of collect shoes. But I have to have a place for each pair that is not taking up space I could otherwise use, and fortunately I currently do have that space – high-ceilinged closet means I can put them way up in a space I can’t reach well and can’t make other use of. If I didn’t have this space, I would also make myself start culling.
Ann
I saw a talk show on cleaning out your closet, and I’ve had good results implementing this advice from it. For each article of clothing, ask (1) do I love it, (2) does it flatter me, and (3) does it convey the image of myself that I want to convey? If the answer to any of these three questions is “no,” toss the item. This will help you narrow things down.
An
If you’re in NYC, I’d also recommend bringing some stuff to Beacon’s Closet. Donating is great (and I do it with most things) but sometimes it helps to get paid a bit to get rid of clothes. Just a warning, they’re sorta judgey about clothes so don’t take it personally when clothes get rejected.
Alanna of Trebond
Judging from their website, Beacon’s Closet will only take your clothes if they are hideous.
Anon for today
I have a legal resume question. I am currently clerking for a federal district court judge, and it is my understanding that, normally, you should not (or at least do not have to) put a description of what you did as a clerk because everyone in the law world knows what clerks do. But what if you go beyond normal clerk work? For example, I have worked on some appellate work when my judge sat by designation and have also done some work (with my judge’s blessing – and in fact, on his initiative) for another judge on cases in my favorite area of law. Anyway, I’m wondering if it is worth making note of these “extra” things I did or if I should just go with convention and forego a job description. Thank you in advance!
North Shore
You can use it to angle your resume towards the job you want. Something like this:
Judicial Clerkship, 2011-12. Researched and drafted district court and appellate opinions in diverse areas of civil and criminal litigation, including . . . [FOIA, employment discrimination, whatever applies to the job you want]. Responsibilities included assisting Judge A. Smith in researching and drafting opinions in cases involving [xx area of law for the job you want].
Anon for today
Thanks – this is a really helpful.
darby
I wouldn’t assume that all in the legal world know what clerks do — I’ve been practicing for 10+ years & have no idea as I didn’t clerk. Maybe others will disagree, but I’d list what you did like you would for any other job.
soulfusion
I clerked and I have a description of my clerkship on my resume. I have never heard any reason to leave off a description, especially when you are applying for your first job post-clerkship. In my experience, no two clerkships are alike because every judge and every court handles their chambers in their own way. Highlight what you feel were unique responsibilities, experiences or cases in your clerkship.
Anon
Is a super awesome mentor enough to make you stay in a firm that is otherwise pretty terrible? I’m considering moving from a mid-law (80+) firm to a small biglaw office in the same city. My mentor (a senior partner) has given me fantastic assignments and experience, a lot of responsibility but also guides me and helps me to improve, champions me to other partners, helps me in business development efforts, etc. I would not have this kind of mentoring in the biglaw office.
Reasons for considering leaving: face time, 2000 billable requirement, not enough work, stealth layoffs (I’m not in immediate danger), basically nonexistent raises and bonuses, the firm forces out women with small children (puts them on “probation” due to “performance issues” then lets them go or makes life so miserable they quit), poor partnership prospects in my practice area and for women in general, and no socializing among associates.
The biglaw office would pay me about 10-20k more with bonus and has a much better environment than what I’m currently in (one of my best friends works there, so it’s not just all bluster on their part). I know I don’t want to stay at my firm forever, but I want to maintain my mentoring relationship as long as possible. It’s getting increasingly difficult to keep the blinders on, though, as to the other problems in the firm. TIA!
Homestar
Wow, until I read the second part of your post I was going to say stick with the mentor because having someone like that can make such a big difference in your career.
But if these other problems will eventually force you to leave, then the question is of timing rather than stay/go. So when do you think you would leave current firm anyway? What are the pros/cons of doing it now versus later? Would the mentoring relationship possibly continue (with the effort on your part) after you switch firms?
Anon
My mentor will retire before I’m up for partner so I would probably leave the firm then at the very latest. There would really be no reason for me to stay at that point. I wasn’t looking to move now, but this opportunity landed in my lap and I don’t know that they will have other openings when I had planned to move. I would make more money and have a more pleasant work environment with less unnecessary office politics-related stress.
I would certainly try to maintain my relationship with my mentor, but if my mentor would invest that kind of time and attention to someone who left the firm. Any thoughts on that are welcome!
Anon
I didn’t see the comments below before posting this… the comments that have said that I will probably be able to keep my relationship with my mentor make me feel a lot better about facing this decision. Thanks!
Westwood Mom
Are you ok with the very low odds of making partner in Biglaw and the higher hour expectations (no matter what they tell you, 2200 plus is what it takes at most biglaw firms to succeed long term)? If so and you feel like you are more likely to get your dream job from Big law than your current firm , then go for it. However, if you can get your dream job from where you are now, with help from your mentor, why not stay?
meara
have you talked with your mentor about your concerns? Especially the ones where you could be more theoretical future things–like the partnership prospects, parenting, etc. Perhaps the mentor could say “actually we’re moving into that area more”, or maybe just “gosh, you’ll have to change areas”….and the responses could either help you figure out ways to work it out at the current place, or more reason to leave.
karenpadi
This. If you have a great mentor, talk to him about your concerns. I’ve had mentors help me decide when to leave, where to go, and help me get a new job.
If he’s a partner in the same firm as you, he knows about these issues already. He might be looking for a way out too. A former mentor of mine (who was a partner at my old firm) started his own firm and brought along 4 other attorneys who all wanted out for the same reasons (I couldn’t wait).
Talk to the partner about your concerns regarding staying at the firm. Tell him you are being courted by the biglaw office and see what he says. He might tell you it’s one partner causing the problems or that he’s evaluating his options too. Just be very clear that you enjoy working with him and really value everything he’s done for you.
Another thing, don’t worry about losing a mentor. Mentoring relationships last longer than your current job. A mentor will be interested in following your career, meeting for lunch, etc.
Anon
This is a really good point and yes, I have discussed some of the problems with my mentor. My mentor is definitely on the “good guy” side of the firm, along with a handful of other really good people, but unfortunately the major players/rainmakers are the ones making it miserable. The good guys are aware of the problems. There’s always the possibility that the tide could shift, but we had a mass exodus of associates, mostly women, not too long ago because of the mistreatment and things have just gotten worse.
KK
You say you’ve discussed “some of the problems” with your mentor, but have you sat down and leveled with him/her that you are considering leaving because of it? I think you should have that specific conversation. This person has served you well so far, so I would see what they think. The other potential advantage is that you are essentially giving the firm a chance to negotiate to keep you. That way you will know for sure that they would rather lose you than change any of their problematic policies.
Homestar
Just to play devil’s advocate, the mentor “good guy” could blow Anon’s cover with the firm “bad guys” such that Anon’s situation gets worse. At that point, she may no longer have the option of going to the new position.
So just be careful in laying it all out there with the mentor. It might be better to level with him once you have accepted the other position. (For example, “I took new job with Big Firm because of X, Y and Z. I would love to see those things change here, but for me this was the best move right now.”) That way Anon gets the point across without placing herself at extreme risk in firm politics.
darby
my .02 – move to the biglaw office. If your mentor is really someone you’ve connected with, you can maintain that relationship past the time you work together. It may even become better as you can get more honest input when you don’t work together.
Shaw
I agree. A true mentor is someone who helps you advance your career no matter where you work. Also, your mentor is probably well aware of the issues you mention with your current firm and is unlikely to be surprised by your leaving.
CLE outfit
I’m going to a CLE session tomorrow where a partner from my firm is speaking. When I’ve gone to these things in the past, they’ve always been during the workweek, so I’ve worn a suit. Do I wear one tomorrow?
Business Casual
Or dark jeans with jacket and nice top. If you saw a client in the supermarket, you wouldn’t be embarassed is my test for this.
3L Anon
Wedding planning vent, but also seeking advice—
My parents are paying for my wedding in August. We’ve been slowly planning and I’m seeing the costs quickly add up. Although my parents also are surprised by how expensive a wedding is, I get the impression that they have no problem paying for the wedding. Earlier this week, my parents decided to look into hiring a wedding coordinator for a few hours of consultation and coordination on the day of the wedding. The wedding coordinator charges a flat rate of $1600. I think that it’s an insane amount of money to spend. I think seeing the cost of hiring this woman was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I’ve been insisting that we don’t need to hire this person. My dad is no longer speaking to me because he thinks I’m going to ruin the whole wedding by not having a coordinator. When I told my parents that I thought it was too much, they told me that I had two options, either I could get married in a courthouse, no reception and receive a cash gift from my parents or I could have the wedding and not receive a cash gift.
I’m a 3L with no job upon graduation. I’m pretty depressed about my financial situation. My future husband works retail and does not make very much money. My parents have not offered me financial help throughout law school. Basically, I think it’s unrealistic of me to choose the option of having the wedding when the other option is to get some much needed money. My parents obviously want to have the wedding – I’m their only daughter. They are extremely angry at me for wanting money over a wedding. I feel undeserving of a nice wedding. I don’t even have a job. I don’t really feel like having my extended family judging the choice of having a wedding when I’m unemployed.
What do I do?
Frump
Compromise? Have a smaller wedding and take a cheque for the difference between the cost of a small wedding and a large one?
A wonderful, aesthetically pleasing, and high-quality wedding can be had for a price that does not break the bank. There isn’t a law saying that a ‘nice wedding’ has to be above $30,000. You could have something fairly nice and even upscale wedding for $5-10,000 depending on location, number of guests, time of day, and the like. You could have a very casual, informal wedding, probably fairly easily, for less than $5,000.
Certainly there must be a middle ground/best of both worlds somewhere in between large, lavish affair requiring a coordinator and getting married in a courthouse?
Anonny non
Do you want to have a big wedding? Or would you rather elope and have a small reception in a restaurant? FWIW – there are options in between the two extremes your parents have proposed. I’d suggest taking a look at ‘a practical wedding’ – the author also recently released a book – which discusses the myriad options beyond ‘large expensive blowout’ and ‘elope at city hall’.
And for your other question about day of planners – if you live in a fairly large city, that is not an outrageous sum of money for a day of wedding coordinator and a few hours of consultation. I paid about $800 in NYC two years ago, but the going rate was (at that time) anywhere from $600-$1300 for day of coordination.
3L Anon
Thanks for replying!
I think a big wedding could be a lot of fun, but it’s certainly not necessary. I wouldn’t mind either option. I had originally thought that it would be nice to do a destination wedding with my immediate family, but my future husband wanted more family there. Now that he realizes that it’s all on the bride’s family to pay for the wedding, he feels incredibly guilty for refusing to go the small wedding route and he is willing to do something smaller.
I will definitely take a look at a practical wedding – the title sounds perfect!
I think that the total cost of the wedding shouldn’t be more than $14,000 (maybe less) including the coordinator. The wedding won’t be a in a large city, but in a smaller midwestern town.
anon
oh my. this is quite a pickle. first of all, this wedding is not about you anymore. it’s about your parents. accept that. therefore i would go ahead and let them have the wedding, and don’t even give a second thought to concerns that “you don’t deserve it” or “what will people think”. who cares? this is about your parents wanting to have a wedding, and you’re just going along with it.
on the money aspect, well, it’s tough, but i would continue to go it alone without financial support from my parents, because it seems clear that any financial support from them, potential or actual, is going to come with significant strings attached. for your sake (and your husband’s sake), maybe better to live without it.
CW
Assuming that you move forward with the wedding: Your parents want to give you a wedding day that you’ll be happy with, and they obviously want to celebrate this next step in your life. If you’ll be happy going to the courthouse, by all means, tell them that. Your wedding doesn’t need to be huge and fancy to be a valid wedding. Your parents probably want to hire a wedding coordinator because they do not want you or them, or any one of their loved ones, to be responsible for the execution of your wedding day. I personally do not think a day-of coordinator is necessary. I didn’t have one. But my venue had a woman who essentially did the duties of a wedding coordinator. If your venue doesn’t (e.g., a space without a dedicated staff, etc.), a wedding coordinator may be helpful.
You need to stop beating yourself up about not having a job. Just because you don’t have a job doesn’t mean you can’t have nice things. Your extended family will not judge the decision of having a wedding when you’re unemployed – they’ll be celebrating this life event with you. And, frankly, if they DO judge, you’ll never hear about it.
If you truly would prefer the money to the wedding, that’s fine. Sit down with your parents and explain your concerns about your and your future husband’s financial situation, and tell them that you’d like to reach a compromise wherein they can celebrate with you and a give you a (smaller) cash gift. (Maybe the compromise will be a courthouse wedding with a few witnesses, and a small, intimate dinner at your favorite restaurant — sounds awesome!).
3L Anon
Thank you, this is really great advice. I guess I just have visions of not having a high enough paying job to make my minimum loan payments and feeling awful because I could pay them if I hadn’t have indulged in a wedding.
I think a coordinator would be useful in the venue. The venue doesn’t come with pre-selected vendors or anything so it would be helpful to have someone coordinating them the day of.
SF Bay Associate
Get thee to A Practical Wedding.com, and buy her book. Meg deals with questions just like this one.
First, you are deserving of love and support (just ask your fiance). You are not undeserving of a nice wedding simply because you are, for the moment, unemployed. Your economic situation is very challenging right now, but it is temporary. You are getting married. It is a big deal. It is a very important day in your life, and your fiance’s life, and your parents’ lives. You might not realize how important a day this is to your parents, too. As for your extended family judging you – F any of them who think that, though I wonder if you’re projecting that onto them because you feel that way about yourself.
I don’t think that the necessarily “responsible” thing to do is sacrifice having a non-courthouse wedding and take the cash, if what you truly want is a non-courthouse wedding. You are getting married only once, hopefully. While there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong or lesser about a courthouse-wedding – they are beautiful and special and meaningful, like all weddings are – I do think there is something wrong with resigning yourself to a category of wedding style that you truly do not want simply because of your current financial situation, and the guilt and low self esteem it has caused you. Your wedding memories will last a lifetime, and a day that is not what you want is not the memory you want to hold for that lifetime.
As Frump says, there’s a huge middle ground between courthouse and blowout. You need to have some honest talks with your fiance about what’s important to you and to him at your wedding, and maybe also after you read the APW book or browse the site for a little while, come up with some talking points for your parents. Then calmly have a talk with your parents and work it out. You don’t have to have a blowout wedding, and it sounds like you don’t want one, but a wedding coordinator doesn’t inherently mean a blowout. Maybe she will make things a lot easier on your parents, who won’t have to call all the vendors or deal with contracts or whatever. Talk to them. Communicate. And seriously, go look at APW.
D
I was browsing through a wedding photographer’s photos (starts with a letter J) at San Francisco City Hall around august and saw a beautiful pair of your shoes! You have a shoe twin nearby! Sadly, instead of being in awe of that photographers kickass photography like I usually do. I couldn’t help but wonder is this SF Bay Associate?
SF Bay Associate
Nope, my photographer did not start with a J, and I was married recently. Love the similarity though!
Research, Not Law
No read advice, but some observations and thoughts about my own wedding a few years ago. I was also alarmed at how the costs added up (although we primarily paid for it ourselves. My parents had hoped to pay for it, but had penny-pinched to get $5k… I’m sure you know how far that got us, even for a moderate wedding).
— I completely and utterly underestimated how important MY wedding was to my parents. It was a hugely significant day for them. I didn’t realize this until the day of the wedding. I honestly believe it was more important to them than it was for me and I would have felt terrible taking that away from them. (We considered a courthouse wedding). Had I known, I would have made some different decisions.
— At the time we were married, we were two well-paid professionals. A few months later, we were both on unemployment and making ends met. I definitely mourned the loss of the money that we had spent on the wedding and honeymoon. My husband argued that it was still money well spent because it was our wedding, everyone had a great time, and it was a very memorable day – and he’s right. I’m glad we didn’t pass on a wedding *simply* because there were other uses for the money.
— You must consider what you want. Are you feeling uncomfortable because the wedding has grown out of your comfort range? Do you want a courthouse wedding and feel pushed to do something like everyone expects? Do you want a big wedding and would only consider a courthouse wedding because you’re nervous about the wedding? You should decide what you and your husband want first, then consider the money.
— Agree with pp that you should counter-offer to your parents having a moderate wedding and getting the remainder of the budget in a cash gift. There are a lot of options between expensive and courthouse. I know my uncle did this with his two girls and it worked well for everyone. One was budget-conscious (beautifully, I might add) and put a down payment on a house. The other had the fancy wedding of her dreams. Parents had two happy girls and were on budget. FWIW, we had a wedding with buffet dinner, live jazz trio, designer dress (sample) for $11k.
Bonnie
I agree with Reaearch not Law that a big wedding may be important to your parents. If you downsize, they may not be able to invite all the people they want to invite. FWIW my parents invited quite a few old family friends to my wedding, some of whom I hadn’t seen since I was a tot and may not be able to pick out of a lineup. If it were up to me, they would not have made the cut but I loved seeing how happy my parents were to share such a happy day with their dear friends. As for the wedding coordinator, you’ll be glad to have one. On hot wedding day, do you really want to track down the florist, locate place cards, find out why table 6 did not get their salads, and deal with drunk uncle Earl who’s not fit to drive?
Bonnie
Er your wedding day. Autocorrect 1 Bonnie 0
Lynnet
I echo what everyone else says about big wedding vs. courthouse wedding. I just wanted to chime in and say that I got married during law school, and the $2000 (small town) we spent on a wedding planner/coordinator was the best spent $2000 in the wedding costs. Keep in mind that on the day of, one of two people is going to be coordinating the wedding- the person you hire, or your mother, you’re not going to be able to do it all. No other money spent during the wedding process is going to go more directly to making sure your parents get to enjoy your wedding day.
Margaret
First off, the money for the wedding coordinator is probably the best money you’ll spend. Don’t fight this of all things!
Second, at the risk of repeating what everyone has already said: despite what the princesses on Say Yes to the Dress think (and I do love that show), your wedding is not “all about you” or “your special day.” It’s about your parents, too, for better or worse. They really do think of it as their party. My ILs were completely overbearing, insisted on a lavish 300-person wedding, and paid for the whole thing. I felt ridiculous and frivolous at the time for agreeing to it. But you know what? It really mattered so much to them. I saw how much fun they had, they still talk about it to this day all the time, and they recently called me up to thank me for letting them do it after a family friend’s daughter refused to do the same.
I think you should recognize that this is important to your parents, thank them for their generosity, and have a beautiful wedding that you love without guilt. Frankly, I think that those who would judge you for your wedding are not your real friends and should not be invited. If they are family (and therefore must be invited), surely they will know your parents well enough to know whose doing it is?
KK
Yes. This! Do not fight the wedding coordinator, of all things. A good day-of coordinator is the best thing ever, and it’s not only for you. If you don’t get one, who is going to be running around when the florist is 20 minutes late? It probably won’t be the bride. It will likely be your parents. A wedding coordinator lets both them and you enjoy the day. I got married last august and the wedding planner/coordinator (I had a full service one for the whole process) was the best money we spent on the whole thing, and it was much more than yours. It will be such a relief on that day, for you and your parents, to know that all of the details are someone else’s responsibility.
Also, I second everything Margaret (and others) said about the wedding not being about you. My in-laws also forced an extravagant wedding upon me full of people I didn’t know and crap I didn’t care about (the only thing I put my foot down on was having a planner/day of coordinator!). By the month before my wedding, I was about to punch anyone who said the words “your special day.” You’re just the excuse for the party. I was very bitter. BUT I had fun on that day and my in-laws got most of the things they wanted. Now, some six months later, I can tell you it’s not worth the fight with your parents. You’ll have fun on your wedding day no matter where it is or who is there.
Siri
I’ve heard it said that your wedding isn’t yours, it’s your mother’s, and your wedding will be in 30 years when your daughter gets married.
Honestly, your parents want to pay for their only daughter to have a big wedding, they can afford it, and it will make them happy. Just let them go ahead. I realize you need money and a job, but it’s their money and they’re entitled to decide how to spend it. This is obviously important to them, because they want to publicly celebrate the commitment of their daughter to their future son-in-law. If you take the cash gift and call off the big wedding, that will likely cause a rift and bitterness for decades to come.
Also, $1600 isn’t unreasonable for a wedding coordinator. The alternatives are running around and freaking out on your wedding day, or making your maid of honor and bridesmaids run around and freak out on your wedding day. A decent wedding coordinator is worth her weight in gold.
KK
Yes, a friend of mine who also got married last year kept telling people “It’s my mother’s wedding, I’m just the bride.” For me, it was my mother-in-law’s wedding.
3L Anon
Thank you everyone. I signed the wedding coordinator contract. Glad to be done with the drama.
anon
I’m obviously late to this, but your comment:
Now that he realizes that it’s all on the bride’s family to pay for the wedding, he feels incredibly guilty for refusing to go the small wedding route and he is willing to do something smaller.
is really disturbing. It’s only “all on the bride’s family” because that’s what you and your family decided. There are other options here — like waiting to get married until you have a job and can pay for it, the bride’s family and groom’s family dividing the costs, etc. When you decide to have someone else pay for your wedding, you give up a great deal of control. If you’re ok with that, great. But when others are paying they get votes and you have to understand that. Good luck with the job search and the wedding.
Kech
Hi Ladies! I recently moved into a client facing role at a bank in London. My work wardrobe consists of black/grey/navy blue dresses and skirts that are usually paired with button down shirts. I am very short and I have a big bum so I rarely find trousers that fit right (Banana Republic 00Ps are okay but its hard to get hold of a pair since the demand far exceeds the supply). I wear opaque tights with all my outfits which are knee length or a bit shorter since anything longer makes me look dowdy. The main issue is that I am Muslim and I do not want to bare my legs but with spring approaching I am worried about how to look smart – will I feel absolutlely ridiculous when I get out of the house in my black tights? Is there any way I can reconcile my values and stye or should I be looking for a move to Dubai? Also, what is the most polite way to deal with people who are surprised that I am still sticking to my no alcohol policy?
RP
For what it’s worth, I wear black opaque tights year round in Los Angeles. My office is usually cold enough that I need them!
Asking
Tights: Do the tights have to be opaque or can they be sheer black?
Alcohol: “None for me, thanks.” Period. No explanation. None. And then ask, “How ’bout those Yankees?” or similar situation-appropriate distracting question.
Kech
I’m okay with sheer black. Thanks!
RK
getting sparkling water/soda water helps you have a drink in your hand and will help fend off the constant asking if you need a drink. When I go out with the guys, I try to get beer in a bottle so that I can just nurse the one drink and fake it with the empty bottle.
Nonny
It sounds like you are just moving to London – apologies if I have assumed incorrectly!
I am not Muslim but when I lived in London I had a lot of friends who were, and no-one at work (large law firm) gave any second thought to how they dressed. Don’t worry about it. There are a huge number of Muslims in London and you will not stand out.
As well, despite what it sounds like, not everyone in London drinks. I am not much of a drinker myself, so in social situations I just didn’t make much of a fuss about it, and no-one else did either.
Have fun! London is such a great city!
Kech
Nonny, you are right – it’s only been a few weeks and temperatures have been low enough that I didn’t give much thought to it till now. Thank you, now I can look forward to spring and won’t be having a panic attack on a bright and sunny weekday morning in March.
And I have to agree it’s a great city – loving it so far!
Weather
in London never gets so hot so you can’t wear tights or pantyhose. If nude pantyhose are acceptable to you, you’ll be OK for all seasons and a wide range of outfits.
Thanks to Kate Middleton, pantyhose have made a comeback, especially in the UK.
gina
If you don’t want to wear black tights in the summer, switch to grey or white or ballet pink.
Siri
Do you wear hijab? If you do, that tends to fend off a lot of questions about why you’re wearing tights or not drinking. I wouldn’t suggest that you should start wearing it, but if you already wear it, you may not run into some of the issues you’re concerned about.
I think that if you want to look polished the way to go is pants. Can you afford to buy a size up to fit your bum, and get them tailored? I would suggest you check out the blog extrapetite dot com or alterationsneeded dot com for a lot of suggestions for professional wear for short women.
If you find yourself wearing tights, try colored tights instead of black. That looks a bit more springy without being revealing. I don’t know how conservative your work environment is, but burgundy, brown, gray and navy should be fine even in a very conservative workplace. If it’s less conservative, bright colors would look nice in spring and summer.
anon
similar position except i’m a nyc attorney. opaque black starts to feel too heavy looking for me come spring, so i switch to opaque greys navys or maroons — and sheer blacks, etc. are good too. also look into some open work tights — something like fishnet but other patterns can be more attractive and conservative, like chevron patterns.
also, keep your hopes up on the pants. it’s probably worth getting some tailoring done to make pants fit right. but don’t get too bent out of shape about it, the air conditioning is always so strong that people who dress weather appropriate in the summer time are freezing in the office
Night Hair
Does anyone wrap her hair and put a scarf over it to sleep and, if so, does it make your hair look better?
An African-American friend was just explaining the idea of wrapping hair to sleep and it sounds pretty cool and probably helpful to keep hair from breaking. Does this work for women who aren’t African-American as well? I feel like a moron that I’m only just finding out about this idea in hair care.
Anonymous
Don’t feel bad. I was just out for lunch with Asian co-worker and her toddler. She carries scissors and a bowl to snip food into little pieces for the child. She says it’s a really common Asian-family thing. It’s also a great idea.
ML
haha, oh no! :)
ML
Um, sorry, have no idea how that got there.
In answer to your actual question, i never heard of this until I had an African-American roommate who did this every night. It worked so well I begged her to do mine too. It did eliminate considerable frizz, but didn’t do much else except make my hair really flat the next day. That wasn’t the look I was going for (I have soft, straight-ish hair as it is) so I only did it twice. It might work well on non-African Americans if you have curly and/or coarse hair.
Research, Not Law
I have thick, normal, curly/wavy hair – mid/long length. I’ve tried to wrap it at night, although probably not with the best technique. I honestly couldn’t tell a difference. It was slightly less tangled. Some sections were less frizzy, but I felt like others were more so. However, it very well could have been user-error.
Worth a try. If you have success, please report back with the technique.
cbackson
I don’t wrap my hair, but I braid it at night, and I do think it helps prevent breakage. I’m white, with long, but not particularly thick, hair.
Tired Squared
I tried wrapping on my Asian (silky stick-straight) hair and it didn’t work–the wrap kept sliding out. A few weeks later, I stopped by the Sally Beauty store on my way home from work and the extremely nice (and patient!) saleswoman explained that the wraps are made to kind of “stick” to coarser hair, so it probably wouldn’t work for me.
She then recommended a “sleeping cap” that is basically a satin shower cap, which has been wonderful. I feel like there has been a lot less breakage, and best of all I don’t get the same “bump” that I was getting when I tried to tie my hair into a ponytail/bun at night.
Siri
Yes! Curly haired white girl here. The only way to keep my curls nice overnight is to pile them atop my head and wrap them in a silk scarf.
Mal
I’m black (not American!) and have naturally curly hair. I either sleep on a satin pillowcase or restrain my hair in some way (braid, bun, etc) and use a satin scarf or sleep cap. It definitely reduces frizz and breakage for me.
anon
Ladies, I’m in a position I never thought I would be in. After months of not getting any interviews, I was offered a job today. The only problem, I also had a first interview today with another place that is my dream industry. The dream job told me they have a short hiring time frame in mind so they could hypothetically pick someone next week (within when I need to tell the other company). I think that the interview went really well and would obviously LOVE to have the dream job. Can I reach out to the dream company and tell them that I have an offer on the table but would prefer to work for them? How would you go about this?
K in NYC
After the interview, I would send a thank you note (obviously) and include in it that, though you do have other offers on the table, based on x,y,z, the interview with [name of interviewer] made you more certain than ever that x company is where you belong. State that you understand they have other interviews but hope they will let you know of their decision shortly so you will be able to make yours.
If they haven’t contacted you 2 days before you have to let the other job know, contact them and ask once more. It can’t hurt to be slightly persistent without being annoying!
An
This.
DC Association
Tell the place that offered you the job that you had already had a few interviews lined up for this coming week and need to still attend them, and that you can give them an answer ater you have gone to these interviews. They will understand – just give them a day by which you will give them your decision. Happens all the time.
Anon
I have used an offer deadline to leverage my number 1 choice into making an offer. It worked for me.
Biglaw Careers/Mentors
For those of you in biglaw, how much would you discuss with a mentor who is a young partner (1st yr in partnership) re your career plans? I’m a senior associate and had a rough review this time around after always having top of the class reviews; in order to be professional, I’ve had to discuss with a few partners, all of whom have told me (don’t know if I believe it) that the reviews themselves are good but the firm has decided they don’t see me as partner track. The mentor (junior partner) was obviously at the review meeting, which makes this more humiliating, as I’ve worked 2500+ hrs for her in previous years on 2 different cases and she always thought the world of me and has now heard many other partners say that I’m nothing special. I have no idea if she sat there and agreed with the rest of the partners, if she stood up for me or what. But I do need to sit down and discuss with her — if she is a mentor, I don’t want this to be the elephant in the room forever, but how honest should I be — should I say, I’m giving up on this and looking to leave?? This has been an awful situation but easier with other partners with whom I have no “friend” type of relationship. Fortunately, she is located in a different office of my firm (though reviews are all combined by dept), so I have been able to avoid her but will be in her office in the next week or two and want to get it done. Don’t even know how to start. Thoughts. (All of this is made worse by the fact that they all know I was killing myself for the small chance of partnership and before I’ve even started down the final stretch, they’ve said ‘no thanks.’ I wasn’t an associate who was ambivalent re partnership.)
EmpLawyer
I’d say that the firm (as a whole) has already made your decision for you – you will be leaving, voluntarily or not, in the next few years. As your mentor was in on the meetings where your review was prepared, she is likely already aware of this fact. One way to approach the meeting with her is the angle that the message seems pretty clear, and ask for advice on finding/getting the next place. Good luck!!
KK
I would set up a time to meet with her about the review. Alunch or happy hour, something outside the office, might be more comfortable. She was there, she’ll know what you want to talk about. Ask her for advice on what the next step should be, career-wise. She may have connections outside the firm that would be helpful to you.
Biglaw Careers/Mentors
Should I only focus on ‘what are my next steps?’ Or do I also ask — what was said; who said what; why; what was her role? At this point, I don’t see those things mattering, though I somewhat want to know. The messages from the other partners are all over the map — it’s a work issue; it’s not a work issue; you’re fabulous but we just can’t support another partner; keep doing exactly what you’re doing (don’t get this one at all). There is no guarantee she’ll give up this information, as these are her fellow partners now. Also, any tips on how to deal with the embarrassment of this? Rationally I understand this sort of things happens all the time in business, but I’m having a really hard time. It’s hard to discuss it without crying about it (and I am not a crier) or making sarcastic comments; I was totally stoic with the other partners but these are not people I chat with/go to lunch with etc. so it was just a matter of ‘I wanted to follow up with you . . . what are your thoughts.’ I imagine this will be different and harder because she is the one person who understood how much I wanted it so she will realize the disappointment is there.
Former MidLevel
I definitely wouldn’t ask “what was said; who said what; why; what was her role.” It really doesn’t matter and, frankly, it would be weird for you to ask. If your mentor volunteers information, however, that’s another story.
As for the embarrassment issue, realize that a lot of BigLaw reviews (especially the bad ones) say less about you then they do about firm politics. Since you’ve always gotten great reviews, you’ve probably been shielded from this phenomenon until now. But it’s true. I can’t tell you how many great lawyers I’ve seen run out of firms for b.s. reasons.
Hang in there – I know how terrible you must feel, but it is not the end of your career. Or the end of your dream to be a partner at a great law firm. Focus on the things you *can* do.
Job Seeker
I wonder if I should put on my resume that I recently started my own business.
I am trying to get a job in operations in a conservative field and I am sewing dog clothes on the side.
On one hand I’m afraid it could raise the “too young” or “too cutesy” flag. Not all of my clothes are overly cute, but lets face it, dog clothes are usually not something connected with being professional.
They could also get concerned that I take off soon if I make money with it. Personally, I don’t see me living off of it, I like having a day job and then going home to something else, but they don’t know that.
On the other hand running my own business can also show that I have a grip on anything business related, right?
My more recent volunteer work is also dog related but none of my previous positions are.
Any input, suggestions, tips, help is greatly appreciated.
K in NYC
why list the business? if you have real reasons and you can write your skills list down as things that will translate into the business world, yes. if not, don’t.
Job Seeker
Well I am pretty proud of it. It grows and I am taking care of everything from building a website, marketing, social media, well, you know, everything.
Anon
It depends on how you present yourself, but you sound a little doubtful yourself, so maybe that indicates something worth paying attention to. Plus, remember that most people will spend thirty seconds looking at your resume, so if it is at all confusing (what kind of business? how does this relate? is the biz going to conflict with a day job?) it might detract rather than add to your resume.
Job Seeker
Good point. I always forget how little attention can actually be paid to a resume. I always think because I spent forever making it they will forever look at it.
Jax
I’d leave it off for the first year or so. If the business works out well you can add it on and use it show why you have experience in a number of business areas (accounting, sales, distribution etc).
Job Seeker
Sounds reasonable. Thanks.
springtime
I recently met someone randomly who happens to work in government (policy advisor for the state). I am interested in litigation and currently have a job in litigation. This person offered to send my resume to people they know in my field (after some googling I get the impression the person knows a lot of people). I am very content at my job but of course I want to send my resume off because you never know what might come up.
I haven’t updated my resume since I graduated, should I be putting skills I have learned since I started work in the fall? How do I do that, exactly, without sounding like I think I know everything?
TIA!
Siri
Instead of skills, I think it’s better to put specific accomplishments. E.g. “co-authored winning brief in involuntary bankruptcy appellate case”, “chaired 7 trials and obtained 5 not guilty verdicts”, “completed National Institute of Trial Advocacy weeklong training,” and so on. Having skills isn’t so important as demonstrating that you know how to use them.
D
Random relationship question:
Background we’re both 22 and turning 23 in 2012. We’ve dated long distance during all of college and are ridiculous engineers.
We’ve both just started working as of 2011 in the real world. We both were really busy in college with both our curriculum and organizations so we established that didn’t talk until 9pm and then skyped each other to sleep.
Now that we’ve entered the real world, I’ve learned he likes working 9am to 9pm if not later and then comes home to push through another couple of hours . He also regularly feels bad if he doesn’t work another 7-8 hours on the weekend. However, I work from around 7am to 6pm. I’ve learned that he works so hard not necessarily because he needs to but rather because he wants to retire soon and isn’t willing to compromise. I feel like I’m always the one who wants to hang out and be with each other and I’m not sure if I can live a life with a partner who acts like a roommate.
He’s an incredibly sweet, caring, intelligent person who makes me laugh when he’s around but sometimes it feels like he doesn’t want to be around because he just wants to work. I’ve communicated this to him multiple times even throughout college but I always through it’d improve once we started working. I just thought once we became short distance he would want to hangout more.
Is it time to let it go?
To be fair, we both agreed we’d work pretty hard our first few years in the workplace before kids or anything else pops on the horizon and we can’t make the leaps in our careers.
gina
Not to be a downer, but significantly different working habits were a huge problem in my relationship post-college and a big part of what led to its demise. We just couldn’t find a middle ground that made us both happy.
MelD
Seeing as you’re both 22, I’m guessing you’ve both been working for <1 year. There's going to be a point where he doesn't see the rewards for hard work that he envisioned, and my guess is that that will be sooner than later. Unless he's working in an environment where the hours are expected (which doesn't seem to be the place), he's not necessarily going to get any reward or recognition for going way above and beyond the hours others are putting in. In fact, others may be getting annoyed with him because he doesn't appear to be a good fit with the office culture, or the alternative is that he'll always get all the work no one else wants because they know he'll be around.
I'd recommend having a talk with him to see specifically what he expects to get longterm out of working those hours. He's 22, so unless he's some trust fund child, he's not going to retire soon by working as an engineer.
TechAnon
Actually, almost everyone I know who retired early is an engineer. Silicon Valley stock options with start-up high tech companies can be quite lucrative. If he has the right skillset, working long hours in the right place may very well be his ticket to ride.
However, if his work/life balance isn’t a good fit with the OP’s, that’s very difficult to fix. Sadly, she may be finding out that what works long distance doesn’t always work when you are finally together. OP, have you considered couple’s counseling? Sometimes, the authority figure of the counselor can get a techie guy to open up about his feelings and needs.
D
That’s kind of what he’s hoping. He’s currently at facebook and then hoping to jump to another startup company after they ipo.
D
That’s kind of why I wanted to post this question in corporette. We’re both remarkably young and don’t project getting married or slowing down for at least 3-5 more years (more towards 5 if I decide to get my MBA). Not sure if things will change.
Maybe things will change and I’m being too rash?
People work remarkably hard where he works. I was there at 7pm and at least 75% of the office was still there but they also know when to relax, have a beer and have fun. He’s def on the more hardcore side since there are only 24 hours and 7 days to a week.
meme
Some workaholics can never be cured. Consider that he may fall in that category.
Tired Squared
I think it depends on how much you’re both willing to give in a little.
My father sounds a lot like your guy–meaning that he works probably 7am-6pm M-F (in the office), and then usually logs a few more hours after dinner (8pm-11pm or so). On the weekend he works a little less, probably closer to 11am-7pm, but he’ll take a break on the weekends to watch a football game for a while or something. He’s been like this as long as I can remember–he just loves what he does, and he also is probably one of the more driven people in his group. I’m sure he also has a bit of the “they’ll collapse without me” complex going on too.
Anyway, my mother is home by herself when he’s in the office, and they have dinner together and usually watch the news together after he gets home. Then he pulls out the computer to work for a while, and she watches something on TV … and they’ll usually talk about whatever the show is while my dad works. “Hey honey, look at THAT dead body!” (they’re big CSI/Bones/crime show fans).
She’s often said that she has to “pull him out of his work shell” sometimes, but I don’t think she minds much (and when she does mind, she says so). She’s also repeatedly said that he works less now (in his 50s) than he did when they first got married (in their 20s). A lot of his working less came from wanting to spend more time with her, then wanting to spend more time with his kids … and he STILL easily hits 70 hours a week!
anon for this...sleep issues
Anyone have sleep issues? I have a slightly embarrassing sleep issue. I have a lot of anxiety about whether I’ll be able to fall asleep at night. Around 7-8pm my brain starts humming, and I start wondering/worrying about whether I’ll be able to fall asleep that night. This — shocking I know — does not lead to necessarily relaxing well before bed.
So a lot of times I end up taking 1-2 benadryl before bed. Like maybe 5 x a week, which feels like a lot. When I stop it, sometimes I have a little trouble going to sleep the first night, but not always, and feel like I’m emotionally dependent on it but not physically. The craziest part is when I’m super tired and I think — gosh, I’m so tired, I hope I don’t have trouble falling asleep at night, so I take a benadryl. Intellectually, that doesn’t make any sense, but my anxiety about not falling to sleep is a little irrational.
It doesn’t really hurt my life in anyway; once in a while I’m a little groggy when I wake up. I often will skip in on mornings when I have to be up early, and I’ll take a break from it a week or so at at time. But it doesn’t seem healthy to be reliant on a medication.
Anyone else like this? I try to have good sleep hygiene otherwise, but I haven’t given up this dirty little secret.
Anon
I’ve been told by doctors that it’s safe and not habit-forming so I do this too, but often feel tired or out- of- it the next day. I do find that on days that I exercise I have an easier time falling asleep. Also, I’ve been recommended to take melatonin suplements, which I did for a few months but it didn’t work for me.
Janie
Try Valerian root capsules.
MelD
I’ve taking benadryl for years because I have an allergy-related itchy skin issue and often have trouble going to sleep because of it. From what I understand, it is not habit forming. That said, I’ve been using it for so many years that it doesn’t really make me tired anymore. In the winter I get tired really early, so I stopped taking it until right before I went to bed thinking that might help, but honestly it makes no difference at this point. I’ve probably been using it for a good 10 years+ now.
Siri
You have a sleep disorder. Anxiety about sleeping leading to inability to sleep is a classic sign of insomnia. Talk to your doctor about it – there are plenty of medical and non medical was to treat sleep disorders.
A couple years ago one of the NYT’s blogs did a series on sleep disorders: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/category/all-nighters/. You might find it an interesting read.
Leigh
See a doctor, if you can. Addressing your anxiety is probably the first step in getting your sleep habits back on track.
Also, sleep issues are nothing to be embarrassed about. Lots of people have them. And if you and your doctor do decide that medication is necessary, that’s nothing to beat yourself up about, either. I’m on two anti-anxiety meds myself, one of which is specifically intended for my insomnia. I also take melatonin, which can be pretty helpful if you take it in the right dosage; it should be about half a milligram or even less, not the three or five milligram doses you usually see in stores. The Vitamin Shoppe sells it in one milligram tablets that I cut in half.
eek
Definitely see a doctor, nothing to be embarrassed about – there are several good prescription sleep aids. Good sleep is key to functioning well.. Also, you probably know this, but the same medicine that is in benadryl is the same as a lot of OTC sleep aids. Second the recommendations to try valerian root and melatonin.
SunnyD
I may be too late posting…
Have you considered trying some sort of meditation and/or yoga in the evenings? As I understand OP, the problem isn’t actually sleeping, it’s anxiety about sleeping, which then results in poor sleep. Meditation/yoga could help address the anxiety, which would lead to better sleep. You’d probably need to do the meditation exercises for several days or weeks before seeing results. I have heard people say they’ve downloaded meditation apps, which you may also find helpful. I don’t use any so I don’t know which ones are popular.
EC MD
Just had to share with someone (my DH is sick of hearing about it). But we had confirmed seats together with our three year old on a five hour flight tomorrow. I go to check in (and surf around to see if there are better seats) and realize that our seats have changed — without notification, and our three year old is now seated 13 rows away from us. When I call United (yep, calling them out) the two initial solutions are to pay 200 to be upgraded to economy plus, or ask the people next to us to switch. As I was talking to them, I was staring at my email, with “confirmed” seats emblazoned all over it. I kept repeating — calmly, but with growing hysteria — that their solutions were not acceptable, asked to speak to a manager and voila, we suddenly got three seats together (in economy plus). Why is it so hard? And why wouldn’t they just admit that they gave our seats to someone who paid more? Why do the airlines try to make us insane?
Okay, rant over.
BKClerk
ugh, but at least it worked out in the end. And, hey, you got an upgrade. Hope your flight goes well.
Anonymous
OMG. I was on a flight last week with a child (3 or 4 years old) who had been “re-assigned” away from his parents. Poor kid. Glad you argued and won!
MelD
Even if you didn’t get it worked out, I can almost guarantee the flight attendants would have helped you. It’s really not that big a deal. The airlines don’t want to have an unaccompanied three year old way back in the plane, but typically the reps on the phone don’t really have that much leeway in terms of giving you the help you need/want. The seats may have changed because they ended up with a plane that had a slightly different configuration of seats than the original plane, resulting in some displacement.
SF Bay Associate
Oooh, here comes my rant. This happened to me and DH on ALL FOUR LEGS of our trip to and from our wedding location and ALL FOUR LEGS of our trip to and from honeymoon location. We also had confirmed seats in the front or middle of the economy area, window and middle seats, but literally every time we checked in for the next portion, we’d somehow be assigned seats a dozen rows apart, and both in middle seats to boot. I mean, wtf?! We had a fight with the gate agent every time to get seats back together. Two times, the gate agent was nice, and put us together in Economy Plus, but the other SIX times, we had to push and push and push to get put together. It’s my $%)(@*(@ wedding and honeymoon. I am not going to sit a dozen rows apart from my husband. We booked these tickets with “confirmed” seats six months ago. FIX IT.
EVERY TIME I fly United and this happens, I swear to myself that this will be the last time I fly United, but I think because I fly United so infrequently, at some point the memory fades and I forget how bad it is. On our final leg home from our honeymoon, the only two seats together were in the last row, next to the bathroom. It was probably the worst flight I’ve ever been on. What a great way to end. Thanks, United. You’ve finally given me the lasting memory I need to never fly with you again.
coco
This happened to my family when I was a kid (way back when airlines were eh, not horrific). On a flight to Hawaii. My mother walked up to the desk at the airport and said “You really want to subject two other passengers to 5 hours of sitting next to a 6 year old??”. We got upgraded to first class.
Siri
They really push hard to get people to pay for economy plus. In reality, hardly anyone will pay for it. I’ve been on many United flights where regular economy is full, and there are 5 people in economy plus. Often, they just end up upgrading people for free because economy class is full and the alternative is flying a half-empty plane. So it’s unsurprising that the customer service rep tried to push you to pay and it’s also unsurprising that the manager upgraded you for free.
I fly on United a lot for work, and I honestly can’t remember the last time I *didn’t* get a free upgrade to economy plus.
They probably gave away your seats because they switched the type of plane you’ll be flying on to one with fewer seats. That’s happened to me several times. I think confirmed means you’re guaranteed a seat, but they reserve the right to change your seat location.
Anonymous too
A bit of advice from a frequent flyer:
If you book well in advance, even with confirmed seats, it’s helpful to check seats and flight schedules a few weeks in advance, and again the day before. Frequently there are schedule changes, or plane changes to one with a different seat layout, etc. Also, if you can talk to a real person at check-in, they can frequently help with seat reassignment for the whole trip. Depending on the airline, there are a handful of seats sold, but not assigned until the day of a given flight specifically to accommodate families, assistance needs, etc.
Looking for Bunkster's Bark
Don’t count on the flight attendants reseating you. There was an article on this not long ago – either in the Times or WSJ – so it’s evidently not a rare event. It went on at length about how this was not the flight attendants’ responsibility; they don’t like doing it, and how the burden falls on the parents to make people move and the only power you hold is to threated someone with the possibility of sitting next to your unsupervised child. Nice.
Siri
I have much better luck doing it online myself than trying to get any help from the check-in agent. Usually if you look online about 5 days in advance, there will still be seats available to move to, and it’s unlikely that they’ll change the plane to one with a different seating plan that close to the date of the flight.
K in NYC
Need some Branding advice here…
I was asked to begin writing a relationship/sex advice column for an online magazine for women targeting ages 25-45ish. I can’t come up with a name! HELP!!!! (My first name is Kryss and my name/bio will be at the end of the column but a nickname or something wouldn’t really bug me, if that helps)
Thanks for all suggestions!
Siri
How raunchy is this column? Do you want a double entendre name, or something straightforward?
This
Kryss’ Blyss? Blech. Is that really how you spell your name? Reminds me of the most recent episode of 30 Rock.
K in NYC
yep, that’s really how it’s spelled… I don’t watch 30 rock so I don’t know what that means
K in NYC
I’m open to all suggestions at this point! reposting this in the new open chat since this one is too hard to find anything in! but feel free to email if you think of something munchkin1616 at juno dot com
How's This?
Krysstal Clear Talk About Sex
BKClerk
So….I have a Big Law interview. I am extremely excited and I absolutely have to blow this interview out of the water given how few Big Law opportunities exist in my city. Luckily, I’ve met both of the partners before and generally connected well with them so I’m not too nervous, but I want to make sure my suit/appearance is perfect. Thus, I want to buy a new suit. I was thinking Ann Taylor, especially since they have a 30% online code right now, but I would rather buy in store. Is there anyway to get that 30% off if I go in store? I’m 5’1 and a size 14, so I know the suit will need tailoring and I’m afraid that if I order online, it won’t be ready by my interview on February 7.
Also, thanks to Kat for such an informative post on suits (I think it was the first one that popped up on her women’s suits tag). Love this site!
KK
Are you on their email list? They send out coupons every few days. Sometimes in-store only, sometimes online-only, sometimes both. Of course you can always try it on in the store and ask them. They might honor the online-only discount. I’ve never tried.
Good luck on your interview!
BKClerk
I thought I received their emails, but apparently I was only signed up for the outlet store. I signed up, but I wasn’t sure whether there is another way to find in store coupons. Thanks!
Berry
Try Spring30. Supposed to work online and in-store. (Apologies if you get a longer post stating basically this; I am having commenting problems.)