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When I was getting married, I wanted to start a blog that only featured white clothing, because for once I wanted everything to be white (ok, fine, or cream or sand or so forth) for wear to the rehearsal dinner, on the honeymoon, during the wedding weekend, etc, etc. I've never quite gotten around to starting that blog, but I think this dress is a gorgeous rehearsal dinner dress, or even a low-key City Hall wedding kind of dress. If you are UNLIKE me and will wear a white dress even if it's not wedding-related — kudos to you! — then this is also a gorgeous dress. It was $158, but is now marked to $76 at Last Call (where they have a ton of cute Catherine Catherine Malandrino stuff on deep discount). Catherine Catherine Malandrino Fallon Sheath Dress
(L-2)
Sales of note for 9.16.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 30% off wear-now styles
- J.Crew Factory – (ends 9/16 PM): 40% off everything + extra 70% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Extra 25% off all tops + markdowns
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
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Anon for this
I’m a mid/biglaw 6th year associate in New York. I used to really like my job (no, actually!) despite the hours and demands. I like most of my clients, and the work is interesting. However, the last four months it has turned into hell. I have been assigned to a client who is notoriously difficult to deal with. Her employees leave like there’s a revolving door, and she is well know within our firm for being the client from hell. Yet, her company gives us a lot of business so it’s the usual matter of “the client is always right”.
I bill around 250 hours per month, and right now probably 200 of those are for this client on various projects. So I’m basically her b*tch, but if I were her actual employee, I’d quit, since life is too short to put up with this kind of abuse. But, since she’s my client, and my boss wants her business but wants nothing to do with her directly, I have to keep dealing with her. I don’t want to have to quit a job I otherwise like just because of this one client, but my life is hell since I took her on. I get a physical reaction (anxiety, stomach ache) whenever there’s an email from her in my inbox. And I’ve dealt with a lot of abrasive people in my years in biglaw – this one just takes the prize. My boss actually described dealing with her as going through different circles of hell, but he still doesn’t give me any support and he refuses to get on calls with her. Trying to speak with my boss hasn’t helped – his answer is basically: “you deal with it”. I have nightmares about this client, and I almost feel like I’m an abusive relationship. It’s starting to affect my health, my sleep, my sanity. I feel defeated, and yesterday I cried in my office.
So, the client is not going away. There will be more and more work for this client going forward (their business is really booming). I can’t ask to be taken off this client – that would basically be career suicide given how important the client is and also how nobody else wants to deal with her. Do I have to quit my job to get out of this nightmare? Has anyone dealt with a similar situation and how did you solve it and regain your sanity?
Kathryn
This sounds pretty awful. Is asking to not work with her any more worse than having to quit? If it is, and if you know this is going to continue for more than another couple of months, I think the only thing to do it find a new job, because she is making your life hell. Hugs.
Rosalita
Agree with Kathryn. Sounds like you’re in an impossible position. I’d start looking.
People leave firms for similar reasons all the time. If the firm cared about you staying, they’d do something to support you.
MJ
This sounds like my last biglaw job…I had a number of clients-so-awful-the-partners-wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole. What solved this for me for one client was that the company went through some company-transforming transactions such that my group wasn’t the right group to represent them anymore. Then a few of my awful clients left the firm or transferred to different groups in my firm. In other instances, I got staffed on much more “important” matters such that I could not remain on awful client and keep up with those transactions (so I got support for awful client by virtue of being so busy). If none of these scenarios look likely, this is what I’d do:
1) Look to lateral or go in-house.
2) Once you have a lateral offer in hand, go to partner and say, “I want off this client…I need more support. I know I’ve said it in the past, but I really mean it this time…I cannot be on this client’s matters any longer. It’s stunting my development, taking too much of my billables such that I am not available for other clients and other learning and growth opptys.”
3) Gauge partner’s reaction. That way you will know if you are “just good enough to keep around to keep X client out of his hair” or whether the firm has a genuine interest in your development toward partnership.
I believe you could also use awful client’s mercurial nature against you. Do something to pi$$ awful client off so fully that he or she asks that you are taken off his or her matters. This could backfire for your reputation in the firm, but it could solve your issue. This is very risky though…I would think of it as your nuclear option (said in GWB’s nu-cu-lure accent)!
Good luck.
Anon for this
This is very good advice. And it has crossed my mind how to get myself fired from just this particular client (definitely the nuclear option!) – it’s just gotten that bad. Last night when the client went on one of her ragey rants and threw me under the bus, I didn’t even try to apologize (I actually had nothing to apologize for, but you know how it goes) – I was just totally indifferent (hoping that she’d ask to get me taken off her deals).
DCR
Has every other associate that worked for this client quit? If not, start asking them how they got off the projects. If you decide you can no longer live with this client and will quit if required, I would both (1) start looking for something else and (2) ask to be taken off the client’s projects. I don’t see the harm in asking to be taken off the matters if you are committed to leaving if it does not happen.
(This assumes you are not concerned they will fire you immediately if you ask to be taken off the matters. If that is your fear, I would just start looking for a new job. You could still use the new job offer as MJ suggested, but I would not want to stay at an office that would fire you for refusing to work with an unreasonable client. )
Anon
You need to ask yourself whether you want to make partner at this firm.
If you don’t: it’s time to start looking. Assuming you don’t want to make partner, I also don’t think it’s so unreasonable to ask to not work with this client anymore. Yeah- I agree that a request like that is basically career suicide, but if you’re leaving anyway – so what? There are also ways to make the request that are not as bad as others — eg, I appreciate the great opportunities I’ve had on these matters, but want to make sure that I also have time to (develop whatever skills/ interests are important to you). I think it is a lot easier to frame it in terms of (1) what you want to do rather than what you don’t (more time for other work!) and (2) cutting down the amount of work that you do for this client, rather than stopping entirely.
If you do want to make partner at this firm: you’re kind of stuck in the short term. The good news is that this client likes you and that the partners seem to trust you. Medium to long term, if try to get more involved in other work – I’ve found that the best way to avoid work I don’t like is by being really really busy with work that I do like. So, maybe make that a goal and tell yourself the bad client is temporary? Also, and I realize this is easier said than done, but try not to let the client get to you so much. The client is not your boss. Your bosses realize the client is nuts. (Fwiw, I do not think that it makes sense to say you want off the client after getting a lateral offer as suggested above — I think saying you don’t want to work for this client in such stark terms totally kills any partnership chances you had, even if they do keep you around for a while.)
If you would want to make partner but for this client: I think you can ask to spend more time on other cases. Yeah, your internal standing may take a bit of a hit, but if it’s that or leaving than I think it’s worth a try.
LawyerMomOfFour
Do you have a mentor other than this partner who you could ask for help?
Is there an internal structure (HR? Associate development person? firm administrator?) that can help you?
Do you have a department head who is effective? Could that person be your advocate or does your structure leave everything up to the partner with the client?
What about firm management? Is there anyone at the “senior statesman” (and yes, I know that is sexist, but I also understand the reality in big NY firms) who could be your advocate?
It might be helpful, if your firm has this resource, to call your employee assistance program and ask for help strategizing. This might feel more like counseling, but that’s okay.
If you love your firm and your work, don’t let a crazy client (or a crazy partner) force you out. That would be a shame.
Take action?
Ok, this might be entirely unreasonable, and it depends on how exactly the client is horrible. You describe it as abuse, so I’m assuming it is not just “high standards/ short deadlines” but instead insults, unreasonable expectations, unkindness.
I might say, the next time the client does something unacceptable. “I understand this situation/ case/ ruling is frustrating to you, and that you want things to be done right. I’m glad (my firm) can help you with these cases, and I hope we can keep working together. If you don’t like my work, or working with me, we can find someone else here for you to work with. Otherwise, I need you to treat me with respect/ speak to me like an adult/ keep calm during our conversations.”
It’s a risk. Certainly, the client could fly of the handle and complain to your partner. On the other hand, if you can say it in a calm, and reasonable, and kind manner, it might be just what the client needs to hear. And, it seems unlikely that you would get fired since everyone knows this client is crazy-pants.
AnonLawMom
+1. No matter what you do in this situation, you take a risk. If I were in your position, I’d be likely to start setting boundaries with the client myself. The partner obviously will not do it so you have to. She wants to schedule a call at noon? You are in a meeting until 2 (even if you aren’t). You aren’t in-house so she knows you have other clients. Stop responding to her emails promptly. Stop returning her calls so quickly. Make her wait at least 30 minutes, no matter what. She doesn’t know if you are in a meeting/on another line. When she acts crazy on the phone, never apologize unless you actually made a mistake. Let there be awkward silences on the phone. Basically, screw with her as best you can without doing anything that she can really go to the partner and say “Anon did X.”
Anon for this
Thanks everyone, all very good advice. I do hate that this has really forced the “do i want to make partner at this firm or not” question, but I guess now is the time.
Anon
If it helps, another way to think about it may be: at what cost do I want to make partner?
I am also a 6th year in biglaw, love my job, etc — but that does not mean I am willing to work every hour of every day, and it does not mean I’m willing to put up with anything no matter how horrible it is (e.g., your awful client). You have to draw lines somewhere, and if the line for you is that you’re not willing to spend the rest of your career dealing with truly awful clients, try to find away to gently move yourself away from this one. If you don’t make partner for that — is that so bad? It’s not like making partner is a magic bullet that protects you from dealing with terrible clients, and no matter how you handle this one there will be other evil clients in your future. Even if you’re a partner, how will your firm react if you turn down work from clients just because you don’t like them, or if you tell a client that they need to be more respectful? I’m not saying you can’t turn down work from awful clients or, as Take Action suggests, tell the client that they need to treat you with respect if they want to keep working with you — but if you’re going to do that, you may as well learn now how to have that conversation with a client and how your firm will react. Personally, I’m not sure I would want to be a partner somewhere where it was accepted that we take all work that comes in the door no matter how horribly the clients treat us and our associates.
Anonattorney
I guess my advice is tough love. You’re a senior associate, so you’re in a transition period. You need to show that you’re able to manage valuable clients. The partners have passed off a difficult one to you because they don’t want to deal with her. It sucks, but it’s not going to last forever because eventually someone below you will become a 6th year and will be able to take over the client. At least, that’s how it would probably work in my firm.
I say that if you otherwise like your firm, and it sounds like you do, you suck it up and advance your career. Power through knowing that there’s an end in sight. Start filling your schedule with work for clients and partners you do like, so that in 2015 you are too busy with other work and can pass her off to the person below you. Making partner in a firm you actually like is a pretty big deal. Depending on your firm’s structure, it can come with a lot of job security, money and freedom. I wouldn’t take that for granted.
Kathryn
Wow, I love this. So classy.
Erin @ Girl Gone Veggie
I love this dress too. I just wish my skin had a little color so I wouldn’t look like a ghost when I wear things that color. #palepeopleproblems
zora
this and if I wasn’t such a klutz that I ruin All Of My Clothes… I just can’t have nice things :-P
NbyNW
Thirded
Lydia
Very pretty – and great idea. I just purchased it for my rehearsal dinner!
Bonnie
How appropriate. I was going to post a PSA that the DVF Zarita dress is on sale and would be great for a casual wedding. http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/diane-von-furstenberg-zarita-lace-scoop-dress/3708820?origin=category&BaseUrl=Clothing
Parfait
Ooh pretty.
Olivia Pope
Seriously. I want to buy this dress and get married in a beautiful courthouse, followed by an elegant party with my friends and family.
Of course, I’m already married so that’s out of the question.
Anon
Now that it’s the weekend, let’s talk s3x. How much casual s3x is too much? Is there a line? Thoughts? Some single friends and I were discussing this earlier this week and I’m curious to see what others think.
cbackson
How much is too much? isn’t the right question. The right question is: How much is too much FOR YOU?
For me would be, “Any is too much.” But that’s because casual s*x isn’t my thing. For you, the answer is likely different. So long as everything is happy, healthy, and consensual, I’m not sure why anyone else’s line matters, you know?
CountC
+1
Rosalita
I think you should make sure you are being healthy and safe, both in terms of STDs and your emotional health. I know I went through a phase of a good amount of casual encounters… but really it was to mask some emotional problems I was having. And the drinking wasn’t that great for me either.
But if you are protecting yourself both emotionally and physically, then have as much fun as you want!!
zora
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘too much’.. like too many guys/girls? or for too long? or too many times w one person?
without more specifics tho I would say : when you’re not having fun anymore…. I’ve definitely had times when I felt like I was just over it … and would stick with one person for a while… or just take a break entirely … one time was a way too long break (22 months!!! aackkk!!) and after a while it did just sound like fun to start again. ;-)
Annon
Totally annon for this, I am wondering how much is too little s*x? I have been single over year and a half now. Had 2-3 casual flings in that time, nothing that really clicked (but it was safe/consensual). Didnot have any gardening parties for over 4-5 months as I thought I need to do more proper dating but haven’t found anyone right. Everyone around me at work is married or in serious relationships and I feel so bad for myself when I think everyone is having fun LGP sessions to relax while I spend another lonely weekend. It just makes me feel so disheartened, I almost wouldn’t mind casual LGP now, it is better than nothing especially when I am having stressful time at work.
Single Anon
I just broke up with someone I was with for a few months, and before that I was with someone for over a year. Going back to online dating with a heavy but hopefully open heart. The thing about s*x (sorry, I just can’t with the euphemisms) is that when I’m having it regularly I can’t imagine not having it, but then when it’s gone I don’t really miss it as much as I thought I would. I can get there by myself for stress reduction, and casual encounters are not for me. But this time I’m sad about it.
Married
Believe me, your friends who are married are not having as much as you think they are.
There’s no such thing as “too little.” Plenty of perfectly normal wonderful people wait until marriage.
Ru
Word. I’m having the least s3x. Don’t feel bad it it’s not right for you.
Samantha Jones
Too much? No such thing.
Tired Squared
Ha!!
Lily-Student
I’ve always thought it wouldn’t be my thing, but I’ve just come to the realisation that I’m not likely to be in a place where relationships are possible for at least the next four or so years (the grad job I wants involves a ton of long-term international travel), so I may have to change how I think.
That, or get super comfy with my jar of peanut butter and my toaster.
Anonymous
What does that mean???
Sadie H.
That sounds extremely dangerous and/or uncomfortable. I’d advise against it.
Age Differences
Do you think a 32 year old man and 24 year old woman can date if they’re in the same life stage (eg. both graduated and out in the workforce)? Or is the age difference too much to handle?
Anon
You’ve just listed the ages of my sister-in-law and my brother when they got married, except reversed (she’s 9 years older). For some people, it absolutely works.
tesyaa
My parents met and married when my mother was 26 and my father was 37. They’ve been married over 50 years. Why would the age difference alone be a dealbreaker?
Blonde Lawyer
Same for my parents though they haven’t yet hit their 50th.
Erin @ Girl Gone Veggie
My husband and I are six years apart and I do think it works because of us both being in the same stage of life despite the age difference. I was finishing up undergrad while he was finishing up his doctorate. We both graduated, moved, and started our first real jobs together. Also, because he’s the one pushing 30 and I’m not there’s no pressure to start a family yet. I think every relationship is situational but that it definitely can work.
Rosalita
It can certainly work, especially if you’re at the same life stages.
As you get closer to retirement, you might want to consider what that will look like. I know a couple where the woman is already retired, but the man just turned 50 and plans on working for at least another 15 years. She’s pretty bored, and can’t really travel with him, which is one of the things she thinks retired people do.
Anon
I definitely think it can work. I think it is a little harder with an 18 and 24 year old or even a 20 and 26 year old because of the stage of life thing, but a lot of 24 year olds are in the same or similar stage of life as a 32 year old.
Orangerie
Yes. My boyfriend and I were those exact same ages when we started dating a couple years ago. I don’t think the age difference is too much to handle as long as you both share similar lifestyles.
If one person likes to go out and party 3 nights a week and the other has already gotten that out of their system, there might be a problem.
BB
I started dating my husband when I was 23 and he was 37. We were, as you put it, both in the same life stage (just finishing school and starting on “first proper job”). The only difference we have is purely superficial things – he likes older music than I do and references older movies :)
Nellie
I started dating my husband when I was 25 and he was 31. We got married when I was 30. It was a little hard sometimes. As much as I thought we were “in the same life stage,” I did a lot of growing up in my late 20s, and he had been through that already. Sometimes we did feel like socially we were in different places— but, that can happen even between people who are the same age.
In short, yes, it can present some challenges, but it is absolutely not too large of an age difference. I just advise engaging with it if issues arise instead of pretending that the age gap isn’t an issue. As the younger one, I was resistant to that, and I think we could have avoided some arguments if I had been less defensive about being younger and more proactive about managing the possible incongruities. The age difference can also be a positive— it provides different perspectives and can be an endless source of humor too (especially re pop culture).
hoola hoopa
Yes. When we met, my now husband was 35 and I was 24. We weren’t even in the same ‘life stage’ – I was in grad school in the second location I’d ever lived in; he was 10 year into his professional career and had lived in several states. Etc.
Lynette
Sure. My husband is nine years older. This month is our 7th wedding anniversary and we’ve got two kids. So far, so good. He had been married before and obviously had more life experience (he was 33 and I was 24 when we met), but we otherwise meshed well and had a very similar outlook/sense of humor.
The only thing that changed was my timeline sort of sped up…we had kids a bit earlier than I might have otherwise, but that was a choice I made based on our circumstances, and I certainly don’t regret it.
tk1
I was 24 and my husband was 36 when we met. Now we are 37 and 49 and still together, so it is possible!
Anon99
I am 31 and my husband is 24. But, we are (and were when we got together) at similar life stages. By “life stage milestones” I was maybe 2-3 years older than him, not the 7 years that is actually is on the calendar. Once you get past highschool it’s a lot more about the individuals than the numbers. I certainly wouldn’t date most 24 year olds, because most 24 year old guys are still living in a share house with 5 other guys and playing beer pong every weekend. But what most 24 year olds are doing is not in any way relevant to my relationship with one particular 24 year old.
Too tight?
How do you know when work pants are too tight? I tried a pair of Halogen pants that look great from the front, but seem to be too tight across my butt, which cause lines right below my cheeks, if that makes sense. I can move around in them well, sit comfortably, etc. DH think I look great in them and insists that they are not too tight. Thoughts?
Rosalita
They are probably too tight for work.
But you should keep them for date night with the hubby. :)
Aggie
Unfortunately, they sound too tight for work. Any lines or “smiles” are clear signs that my clothes are too tight for the office.
JJ
If you think they’re too tight, then err on the side of believing they’re too tight for work. But I agree – keep them for date nights!
NYNY
I probably wear pants that others may find “too tight for work” to work. To misquote Jessica Rabbit, I can’t help it, I was drawn this way. My booty and pants have an agreement to work together as best they can, but sometimes, there are smile lines.
Rosalita
Can you size up?
DC Darling
Same problem as NYNY. Sizing up means I get a huge gap around my waist and can basically take the pants off without unbuttoning them.
#bigbootyproblems
Anonymama
Yes, and sizing up also often means pants are unflatteringly baggy, which doesn’t look very professional either. Also, in this day and age of men wearing more fitted suits, i don’t think it’s taboo to wear clothes that might hint at the existence of a figure.
Lily-Student
+1, anonymama. If men in the office wear close cut suit trousers, why can’t we?
Rosalita
This is what tailoring is for.
And there is a double standard for women. I wish there wasn’t, but men just don’t have as much at risk in terms of being taken less seriously if they wear tight or low cut clothing.
M-C
Don’t just size up, find a brand that works for curvier women. They do exist, even if you might have to spend a lot of time in dressing rooms first before you find a good one for you :-).
Frustrated
Can we talk about ethnicity in the workplace?
There was recently a diversity awareness dinner held by a local advocacy association. When a few of my colleagues (white) and I (not white) were out to lunch, I talked about it with some enthusiasm, as they had a famous keynote speaker coming in. My colleagues all kind of looked away and/or rolled their eyes, and none of them chose to attend the dinner.
I am frustrated by this. I am not the kind of person that repeatedly brings up ethnicity in the workplace, but I get so annoyed when diversity, etc. issues are seen as “someone else’s problem.”
How do you make people more open to talking about race and diversity issues?
Alana
I don’t know if this is effective, but it may help to explain to members of the majority that when an individual is a minority in any way, they are more aware of that aspect of who they are because it’s less common. Even if a minority tries to forget, others will remind that person of their minority status in ways big and small. However, one aspect of a person’s identity is just that, and people can choose to focus on the parts of their identity that are most important to them.
Some people adopt the idea of “people are people” as the equivalent of not seeing color and pretending that differences do not exist. Some people think that reminding others of differences is divisive.
Anonymous
This is going to hit them in the bottom line eventually. If they don’t care about their employees’ perspectives, they should care about those of their clients. Clients not only value diversity, but also base hiring decisions (including hiring professionals) on diversity.
Other Side
I am on the other side of this. And a very regular poster who would not dare identify herself on this issue for exactly the opposite reason.
I work for a government agency in a state with a state constitution that prohibits affirmative action. The prevailing and legitimate position of everyone in my agency is aggressively pro-diversity.
I was just asked to work with senior leadership to determine ways to improve diversity without running into legal problems. This is a great project, one in which I fully believe and one I am excited to work on. I strongly believe in diversity.
My boss told me that s/he was concerned about my working on this matter because “I know you are elitist and don’t believe in affirmative action.” I tried to clarify that this perception was not accurate. My boss was not hearing it. I chose not to give specific examples of things that I have done that demonstrate my commitment to diversity because that felt weird and defensive. I believe that my boss (who is a member of a minority group that can be readily perceived) is discriminating against me because I belong to a different minority group (one that cannot be readily perceived but that I discuss openly and that many people think “controls the world.”
Why am I writing this novel? (1) Because I am venting because I cannot believe that my career promotion is being affected by someone who wrongly thinks I am not sufficiently pro-diversity. (2) To demonstrate that it flows both ways.
BTW, any suggestions welcome. So far, my approach has been to: (1) attack the project with enthusiasm, and (2) let everyone know how great I think it is that we are so committed to diversity because I am, too.
Lady Tetra
Your approach sounds like pretty much all you can do. I’m sorry that your boss has made unfair assumptions about you and your opinions. Either doing well on this project will change his idea of you, or it won’t, but hopefully there are others in the office who will appreciate your efforts!
Anon
I don’t think it’s fair to say that they don’t care about diversity because they did not go to a diversity dinner. Attending diversity events is intimidating when the event focuses on a specific group of which you are not a part.
wildkitten
That’s not what she said.
wildkitten
Er, she did, but it was with other behaviors that have no such excuse.
pale
I’m white (and pretty WASPy to boot) and my reaction probably would have been similar to your colleagues. I really, really don’t want to talk about race at work. It’s a hugely emotional, divisive issue. I see a huge potential downside to this kind of discussion and, for me, no advantage.
Monday
The “advantage” to talking about race, as a white person, is acknowledging reality and accepting responsibility for something that is everyone’s issue.
L
Same reason why many straight people advocate for LGBT issues and men advocate for women’s issues. It (often) takes the perceived majority to stand up for the minority before people realize it’s not just “that group’s issue.”
emeralds
Yup. I could write novels about this, but it is not only minority groups’ responsibilities to stand up for themselves–if members of the in-group are aware of issues/have souls, they should say or do something. I know that as a woman, I’ve really, from the depth of my heart, appreciated it when men have checked other men who are being sexist. It just gets so damned tiring to constantly be having to do that for yourself, be the one “causing a problem,” be the told “ugh you just can’t take a joke! Feminist bitch, you’re probably a lesbian.” I’m in a comparatively privileged position–I’m White, cisgendered, straight, middle class, college-educated–but still. It’s mentally and emotionally draining.
To the OP, sorry your co-workers reacted in such a predictably bad way to being confronted with the reality that not everyone lives life as part of a majority group, and that your race/ethnicity/minority status is a salient and important part of your identity. I would totally go to that event with you.
Wannabe Runner
I agree 100% with emeralds on this issue. I’m white, but believe I benefit greatly from racial and otheer kinds of diversity in my workplace and community. I live in a very diverse city. My previous employer had disproportionately white attorneys, and I found that disturbing. (They also had some issues with gender, but seem to have fixed that.)
I am also very sad this happened to you, OP, and totally would have gone to that dinner.
emeralds
[Think I got moderated for too many words related to s*x?]
Yup. I could write novels about this, but it is not only minority groups’ responsibilities to stand up for themselves–if members of the in-group are aware of issues/have souls, they should say or do something. I know that as a woman, I’ve really, from the depth of my heart, appreciated it when men have checked other men who are being s*xist. It just gets so damned tiring to constantly be having to do that for yourself, be the one “causing a problem,” be the told “ugh you just can’t take a joke! Feminist b**ch, you’re probably a l*sbi*n.” I’m in a comparatively privileged position–white, cisgendered, straight, middle class, college-educated–but still. It’s mentally and emotionally draining.
To the OP, sorry your co-workers reacted in such a predictably bad way to being confronted with the reality that not everyone lives life as part of a majority group, and that your race/ethnicity/minority status is a salient and important part of your identity. I would totally go to that event with you.
Sarabeth
Honestly? You can afford to ignore race at work because you’re white (as am I). You need to realize that your minority colleagues don’t have that luxury, and be willing to talk about race openly. The idea that we should avoid talking about race because white people find it an emotional, divisive issue is…not compelling. And frankly, I call BS on the divisiveness. You need to be willing to have a conversation about race with an open mind and listen more than you speak; if you do that, I pretty much guarantee you that you can have a perfectly respectful conversation.
Frou Frou
+1
M-C
+1
pale
I agree that racism is pervasive. But I go to work to make money, not to stand up for my beliefs. I’m not going to pretend that my attitude is noble, but it’s consistent with my goals at work. Also, I am willing to discuss race with my friends (not all of whom are white). I just don’t want to have that conversation at work.
Monday
As Sarabeth pointed out, this is a bright line decision your nonwhite friends don’t get to make. And work is where we spend most of our lives. I hope at some point you may reconsider.
anon +45
Going to a dinner with a (presumably not super out there radical, highly politicized) speaker is an ideal way to address race in a professional fashion. It gives all parties, minorities & non, an in without necessarily demanding everyone expose a ton of personal baggage. Coworkers can attend, then talk about the content of the presentation & how the ideas may impact their business & industry.
If you’re looking for an easy way into a potentially touchy subject, this seems custom made. As others have pointed out, diversity has huge implications in the workplace, so to run away from it, esp. as a white person, does you & your career no credit.
Anonymama
I think the key to the mentioned event is that you would be LISTENING about race, not talking about it. Listen respectfully, and there is no problem navigating potentially sensitive topics.
wildkitten
I think it’s rude to roll your eyes when your lunch companion is excited about a subject, but I could understand being afraid of saying the wrong thing. I avoid discussing race with people I don’t know well because it is a topic with so much history/baggage.
wildkitten
Sarahbeth, L, and Monday have convinced me that I’m wrong. I will now say rolling their eyes was wrong, and your colleagues should have asked you questions and listened if they were worried about saying the wrong thing.
Deep End
This has made me appreciate my colleagues so much! I am the only female in my group and we regularly go to lunch together. My male colleagues openly talk about events that our local women’s committee is putting on and appear interested. They don’t attend the events and I don’t expect them to, but I appreciate that we can openly talk about issues in the workplace.
L
Is it possible that the eye rolling wasn’t at the diversity aspect of the event, but rather “yay another dinner?”
FWIW, I think you can call people on the eyeroll. Not that eyeroll automatically equals not into diversity/events/fill in the blank, but “hey, I get it not excited. mind if I ask why?” doesn’t have to be a confrontation, just actual curiosity. Then you’ll get your answer and if the answer is they think after work events are eyeroll worthy or *this* event was eye roll worthy, you’ll have your answer.
you also can’t make anyone more open. All you can do is control your own reaction and when appropriate, correct bad behavior.
Banquethallchickn4change!!
It’s completely unclear to me how attending a dinner does anything to support diversity. I have a stupid dinner every week this month. I’d try not to roll my eyes about it but anyone excited! About the opportunity! Would get an internal eye roll from me.
emeralds
To your first point, about why one would go to a dinner supporting diversity…Because hearing diverse perspectives can open people’s minds. And learning about diverse people’s experiences can help us all be more aware of some of the humans that we share the world with. And is a way to show that we respect and care for the diverse people that we work with, whose lives, experiences, and outlooks are, in one way or another, shaped every day by their racial and ethnic backgrounds.
Bonnie
Forcing conversations about race with co-workers seems like a recipe for disaster to me. They definitely should not have rolled their eyes but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect them to go to an after-work event for which they would also probably have to pay.
Ciao, pues
Recommendations on when and how to ask for a schedule change when returning from leave? I’d like to work a 4 day week now that I’ve got an infant at home. I’m scheduled to return to work in a few weeks. My gut is to wait until the last possible minute to make it less easy for my employer to say no (as opposed to asking now and her feeling like she can say no and I’ll have time to work out childcare, etc.). Anyone have experience negotiating this kind of schedule change? Advice on timing and what to say/ how to frame it?
tesyaa
As a supervisor, I would not appreciate being blindsinded at the last minute. And I’m not sure how it would make it harder for her to say no.
Lyssa
Second this – also, if I learned that the employee would be in a bind because they had counted on me saying yes at the last minute, I would be completely unsympathetic.
Ciao, pues
Yes, you’re probably right. Okay, no blindsiding. Suggestions on frame/ angle/ proposals?
KLG
Is a 4 day/week schedule common in your workplace? Your industry? Because I think that affects things.
Anon
Anecdata, but…
A coworker did this. It did not go over well. Employer DID say no, and there was much resentment on both sides.
I’d recommend asking her sooner rather than later and preparing yourself for a possible “no” unless this is a common option where you work.
CHJ
I would frame it as “transitioning back to work” and ask if you could start back four days per week when you return from leave. You can then negotiate with your supervisor over whether the four days would be indefinite, or for 2-3 weeks/months, etc. I agree with everyone else that you should ask as soon as possible, though, to set expectations for your return and not leave your supervisor feeling blindsided.
kc esq
I did this when I came back from maternity leave pursuant to an established company policy. It went over great. I know others in other companies who have done it, too. I think that it is something smart employers appreciate. You’re taking a voluntary pay cut in exchange for reduced demands — what people don’t like is when they perceive that someone wants preferential treatment for the same pay and perks as before. In my maternity leave email concerning my transition back to work, I proposed a date several months out when I would return to 5 days and stuck to it, but I know others who are staying at 4 days indefinitely.
anon
I transitioned to 80% (not 4 days a week, fewer hours) after having my second – I sent my boss an email asking if I could stop by to discuss transitioning matters with about two months of leave left, which gave him a few hours to ponder it instead of just blindsiding him. I do think you have to be ready to walk away if they say no, though.
OCAssociate
I agree that you should ask sooner than later. Also, I’d present it with an expiration date for the time being: Propose that you have this schedule for 3 or 6 months. If it works well, they’ll probably let you extend it. And the time-limited request makes it easier for them to say yes.
Also – have you checked your company policy/handbook? Sometimes there are provisions for short-term flex schedules upon return from leave, but HR/your boss may not go out of their way to point it out to you. It would be nice to know if it’s something you’re actually entitled to.
NOLA
Shopping om Magazine St with zora! We want everything! tried on a beautiful cobalt bra with gold stitching at Trashy Diva. it was $111 so I passed. I mean beautiful but can’t really be worn on a day to day basis. But WANT!!
Parfait
Oh come on. You can totally wear that every day.
NOLA
Well, the problem is that it’s lower cut so the edges might show. And it has quite a bit of embroidery. I guess I tend to wear bras that are smooth with smooth edges.
This is the bra: https://www.trashydiva.com/shop/fauve-delphinebra-cobaltbluenude
Michelle
I support this bra as a viable date night choice, as well as buried under a dark blouse/blaze for those days you need to channel your secret WonerWoman
AUSA opportunity
Any former or current AUSAs on this site? I have been invited for an interview in a major city. It’s an incredible opportunity but I’m also quite happy in BigLaw so my feelings are a bit mixed now. A few questions:
1. What is the best/worst thing about the job?
2. For those who came from BigLaw, what was the transition like ?
3. What are your typical hours?
4. What is your salary?
5. Anything about the job that you wished you knew before you took it?
Anonymous
Do you mind my asking why you applied if you’re quite happy where you are?
OP
Good question. :) I applied because the office recently lifted a long-standing hiring freeze and I was curious if I would even be in the running. Also, while I am happy at my firm, I don’t want to be a partner (and there is very little business case to become a partner bc I am in a very small group) so I know my time at the firm is finite. I figured that being an AUSA would be a great next step from an experience point of view.
Wannabe Runner
I just went to a panel on government law careers. All the panelists in charge of hiring at prosecutors’ offices (Fed and state) said they are looking for a reason in the interview as to why you want to be a *prosecutor.* Why does this work in particular draw you? Make sure you have an answer for that. They get a lot of answers like the one you just said – that it would be good for your career. They are looking for more.
AUSA
I just got an offer in a big city. I’m 4 years out, with directly relevant experience. Salary offer was low (started at $75,000…negotiated up to $95,000, but that was the absolute highest they would go, and that included the locality adjustment for the big city). Also, keep in mind that raises are not lock-step like the rest of the federal government, and they appear to be small and somewhat rare (so plan to be at the same salary for a while). My AUSA friends work fairly long hours and most weekends, but I think they hope that will improve now that the hiring freeze has been lifted. It’s a great job if you can swing the salary.
AUSA
PS: The interviews in my city were very, very hypo heavy. Definitely brush up on your criminal procedure, rules of evidence, ethics, and discovery obligations (Brady was a hot topic). I was also asked to give an opening statement, which was video taped. The strangest part was writing a hand-written personal statement on why I wanted to work there (while I waited in the lobby for my interview to begin).
Nellie
Do you mind disclosing if you’re talking about Chicago?
AUSA
So sorry I missed this. Just in case you are still following the conversation, nope, not talking about Chicago.
Bonnie
Best: knowing that the work I do matters to the community. Worst: dealing with DOJ bureaucracy (fairly rare) . I typically work 50-60 hours a week but that goes up to 70-80 when I’m in trial.
Buckeyeesq
I need dress help! So I recently found out, after months of infertility treatments, that I’m having twins. Great! But my sister’s wedding is coming up in July when I’ll be 22 weeks pregnant and, as far as I can tell, the size of a Buick. I’m also 5’11”. I’m sure it’s too early to know exactly how large I’ll be , but I’ve been perusing for options and I can’t find any designer that makes maternity dresses in tall sizes. Any advice? It’s a casual wedding, so I’d prefer a knee-length sun dress, but I’m thinking that I should just go for a maxi and hope for the best (but all that fabric, fat, and fetuses). Most maternity sun dresses I’ve found don’t go much past mid-thigh for even normal-height people (thanks, Loft) so they will barely be tunics on me which is probably not a great look generally, let alone when I’m giant. Currently a size 4, but quickly growing into a size 6 if anyone with experience in this area has a guess where I might be by July. I’m considering something custom-made on Etsy. Any other ideas? TIA!
CKB
It’s really hard to say in advance how big you will be because everybody carries their pregnancies different, and you just don’t know how your body will react yet. I had strangers argue with me when I said I wasn’t having twins because they were sure I was way too big for just one baby. On the flip side I have a friend who has 8 lb babies and you can hardly tell she’s pregnant at 9 months.
That being said, I feel I can confidently say that if you get a maternity dress that is flowy-er rather than fitted (and stretchy/knit rather than woven) it will work. 22 week is only 60% through a twin pregnancy (most people I know who had twins were considered full term at 37 weeks instead of 40) and most of the growing happens in the last half of the pregnancy. You might surprise yourself at how big you feel, but how small you actually appear to others. Or you might be very obviously showing by then. As I said, it’s hard to guess.
I’m not as tall as you, but it sounds like options for tall maternity clothes are pretty slim, so Etsy just might be your best option. If I were in your shoes I’d be sewing my own dress for sure, and for those that don’t sew Etsy is probably the best alternative.
CKB
Forgot to add – congratulations!! You must be so excited about the babies!
Anon
as a fellow tall and pregnant girl I would buy a maternity dress, regular size in a maxi length and hem as appropriate. I also found pea in the pod good options that tended to be longer than most. I would suggest a solid colour (navy/grey) or work appropriate pattern so the dress can do double duty as officewear – I hate spending money on maternity clothes that I’ll only wear once.
JJ
I agree with this. And surprisingly, some of the maternity maxis at Target were long enough for me in flats (I’m 6′ tall). I also had some luck with the maternity dresses at Gap and Old Navy. Basically, I would order a ton on the internet, try them on, and then return the majority of them that were too short. But I did get lucky enough, because I had a baby at the end of August in Texas and in that heat the only thing I could keep on my body were sundresses.
Or, at 22 weeks, you may still be able to fit into dresses that are simply a few sizes larger than your original size. Maybe look for non-maternity, tall-length dresses that are faux-wrap or some other, more forgiving style?
RR
Ditto Target Liz Lange maternity maxis. I’m only 5’8″, but the one I had was too long on me and had to be hemmed.
Philanthropy Girl
Anon – were Pea in the Pod blouses also longer? Fellow tall girl who carries WAAAAAY out in front (I’m almost 17 weeks and people don’t believe I’m not due til September) – and many of my borrowed maternity shirts are already too short!
Congrats on those lovely twins, Buckeyeesq! Good luck on your dress hunt – I won’t even go for dresses that aren’t maxi length because everything is so short.
Anon
For tops, I didn’t try blouses but I loved their tanktops. I also found ruched styles – whether dresses or tops always fit better and the length was better.
Philanthropy Girl
Thanks!
kc esq
Congrats! Try Aria Bridesmaids. The dresses are customized to your measurements and they offer maternity styles. I’ve never worn them, but I’ve seen them and they’re pretty (albeit in a very bridesmaidy way). I think the regular dresses are around $250-300, not sure about maternity.
Meg Murry
Buy a maxi dress that you think would look good knee length and wait to have it hemmed until 2 weeks before the wedding?
Ciao, pues
if you’re willing to drop some cash (or stalk the sales), Hatch has some pretty options. The styles are flowy and not bump-fitting, so might be a good bet when you’re not sure of your size progression. congratulations!
Ciao, pues
look how pretty this is! http://hatchcollection.com/shop/product/the-barefoot-dress/
Baconpancakes
WOW. I want to buy all of my maternity clothes there once I get pregnant.
MegB
I had twins with my second pregnancy. I wasn’t the size of a house at 22 weeks although I was by the end (managed to hand on to 39 weeks). My babies were on the small size, 3 and 4 pounds respectively. If this is your first pregnancy, you likely will certainly be showing but I wouldn’t think huge at that point. Buy something comfortable that you feel good in. You might wait till closer to get a better sense of how you look. Best of luck and congrats! Twins are exciting and scary at the same time! You’ll survive, mine are 10 1/2 now.
twin maternity clothes
First off, congrats. I am currently 20 weeks with twins post-ivf. I certainly feel big vs someone with 1 baby, but at that stage you are likely not going to be huge so regular maternity wear should be fine. Amazon carries a random brand called PattyBoutik and I have their Mama Cowl Neck ruched dress in both short sleeves and long sleeves. At 5’7″ with a bump, it’s just past my knees and flattering. And even better, the dress is only $35 and qualifies for prime shipping.
buckeyeesq
And the Hive comes to the rescue again. Thanks all, for the suggestions and the good thoughts. I clearly don’t sew because I’d never thought of hemming a maxi dress, but my mom and mother-in-law both do, so that’s a great idea. Also would love to buy everything from Hatch, but I’d have to find a super-sale.
M-C
I’d recommend http://peggylutz.plus-size.com/ Their stock offerings can be vague enough to accommodate pretty advanced pregnancy, but they also do fairly reasonably-priced custom work. Nice fabric, loose cut, you’ll be fine :-).
Anonymous
I’d say get a non maternity dress like Rachel pally or t-bags – those brands are so mat- friendly that they’re often sold in mat stores (and marked up accordingly).
anon
Hi ladies… my one-year anniversary with my bf is coming up in May and we haven’t discussed it yet but I’d like to take the lead on planning something special… any suggestions for fun/unique things to do in Philly that don’t just involve going out to dinner? Not sure what I’m looking for exactly but thought I’d throw it out there. Or any awesome ideas for a regular old date now that the weather is fantastic?
Ellen
Yay! Open Thread’s! I love open thread’s and this dress which is SOOOO cute! If ONLEY I had a boyfreind so that he could MARRY me already! FOOEY!
As for the OP, you are very luckey to have a boyfreind for a full year! Other then Alan, I have NOT been abel to keep a boyfreind for more then mabye 3 month’s and it usueally did NOT last after they got what they wanted from me sexueally. FOOEY on men that use us then just dispose of us. We should NOT have to deal with men like that. DOUBEL FOOEY!
Myrna is comeing to pick me up so we can get on the road soon, so I will have to catch the HIVE up on this weekend next week. Also, I may stay out on Monday at Dad’s b/c Mom is makeing the SEDER and I get to eat all the Matza Balls I want b/c Passover onley comes once a year. Dad is FORBIDDING me from eating any Matza’s other then what I am required to eat at the SEDER b/c he is convinced my TUCHUS is preventing me from getting married. I told him he married MOM and her tuchus was at least as big as mine in their WEDDING ALBUM, so I should be abel to find a guy who will marry me with my TUCHUS as it is. Mom says “love me, love my tuchus” and I agree. YAY!!!!!! HAPPY WEEKEND TO THE HIVE!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!
Silvercurls
Chag sameach, Ellen! (That means “happy holiday” in Hebrew. It’s also a significant percentage of my knowledge of modern Hebrew.) Enjoy the sedder and the matzahh balls. Maybe a perfect-to-marry guy will walk in whenn your familey opens the doore for the prophet Elijah Yay!
cbackson
LOL. I love this image. Like you open the door for Elijah and whoops! A hot dude just happened to be wandering by!
Belinda
Best of holiday wishes to you and the entire family. With any luck, you’ll be able to state “Next Year in Jerusalem with a decent guy”. Yay!!!!
Rosalita
How about a romantic weekend at a B&B in the poconos?
January
I think Adventure Aquarium in Camden might be a fun date (but not romantic. Might not want to do your anniversary celebration there unless your bf is especially into aquatic life).
Anon
Oh gosh, there’s so much to do! I’ve heard great things about attending burlesque shows in the city. I’m not sure what the May calendar looks like, but attending an orchestra concert at the Mann Center and bringing a picnic and your own wine is an awesome experience. The Mutter Museum can also be fun and quirky, and the Art Museum is gorgeous. There are always things to do at First Friday in Old City. The Rittenhouse Row festival is the first Saturday in May, and the food is awesome. I also think that the world’s largest bar crawl is being organized here in May, and Memorial Day Weekend there are usually fireworks and concerts down at Festival Pier (which is also a great time to get a reservation at a really popular restaurant). I would also recommend checking out Uwishunu for ideas, there are ALWAYS ideas for awesome things to do on there.
Anon
See the historical sights, walk around the museums, go to the Magic Gardens or Longwood Gardens, row a boat on the river, see a play, go do the salsa lesson at club Brasils. There’s lots to do and May is usually a very nice time.
considering a commute
I live in Manhattan and am considering taking a new job in Stamford, and would appreciate hearing from any ladies who currently reverse commute how bad it is (or not). I’ve always appreciated being a quick subway ride from work, and the extra hour commute each way is making me nervous, especially because DH and I are planning on TTC in the next year or so and the idea of making my day that much longer on each end does not sound appealing. That said, the hours of this job would be reasonable.
Thanks!
tesyaa
You would be taking Metro-North, right? (as opposed to driving). My husband did this commute way, way back in the 90s. It wasn’t nearly as awful as we feared it would be.
considering a commute
Yes, Metro North from Grand Central.
tesyaa
I think my husband used to sometimes go from 125th street (obviously there are safety issues to consider). The train ride itself was not bad, and maybe you could get some work (or reading) done on the train.
KLG
Admittedly I’ve always had a 25-65 minute commute by car so I don’t know what a short subway commute is like, but for a few months I had an hour commute by metro in DC and I thought it was great. An hour each way to read and listen to music with no one to bug me. I currently drive an hour with no public transportation options and I would kill for it to be an hour reading on the train before coming home to cook dinner, do homework, etc.
Anonymous
just keep in mind that since this is basically a backwards commute for Metro-North, the express trains usually run faster and more frequently in the opposite direction (i.e. TO Stamford at night, not to GC), just something to consider especially if you anticipate late nights. But it’s still only about an hour trip on average and like everyone said, it’s good time for decompressing at the end of the day.
CHJ
I did this for a couple of years, and it wasn’t too bad. The one thing that bothered me after working in the city, though, was that it was difficult to meet up with friends/DH right after work. Working in the city, I could easily meet people for drinks or dinner somewhere in the city right after work, and then go home. With the extra commute (I was in Westchester, but similar idea), I would have to go all the way back to Manhattan and then go from there to wherever I was meeting people. It’s not a big deal, but it was an adjustment.
commute
My husband did this for a few years and I have other friends who still do it. The key is to be as close to Grand Central as possible. Subway + metro north is rough. It also depends on how close your Stamford office is to the train station.
Anon
Did reverse commute for a little over a year to a relatively close Westchester express stop. Was fine with it in the beginning but by the end hated it so much. First, consider whether you’d be at an express or local stop. It makes a big difference in frequency of trains and duration of trip, especially coming home. Also consider if you’ll have regular 9-5 hour or if you’d be working later than 6 or 7–the trains really stop coming at a certain point which can be killer for even slightly later hours. Also worth considering is how close you are to Grand Central. Finally, you can’t just head home when you want, because you’re beholden to the train schedule. You might finish at 6:50 but the next train isn’t until 7:35, so you’re stuck killing 45 minutes (that crushed me at times) when you just want to be home.
My commute was 8-10 min walk to 4/5; 20-25 mins on 4/5 to Grand Central; 36-40 min Metro North ride; and 10 min walk to office. All of the points were fine by themselves, but add it all up and you’re talking ~80 minutes each way–and that was if the trains were running on time and I didn’t have to wait for anything. I lived in the Financial District close to the 4/5 so it wasn’t like I was schlepping from UWS or anything.
I think for a limited period of time it’s fine, and for the time-limited position I had it was more than worth it. I also realize a bunch of hedge funder folks do it. But the lesson I took away was that I couldn’t do it for a regular job and credit that experience as curing me of any thought of moving to the suburbs. I barely saw my kid during the week when I did that and never went out because the extra traveling just killed me.
Paging Wildkitten
I was fascinated by your grown-up life hack to hire third parties to deal with emotionally fraught situations. So sensible. It got me thinking: what are your other grown-up life hacks, if you don’t mind sharing?
— Former Partner, Now In-House
Hollis
I’m not Wildkitten but will be posting a question below on people who made partner and then went in-house and would love your thoughts!
wildkitten
I was thinking about this too, ever since you asked. Another secret of adulthood is that it’s totally fine to go to bed early. I’m sure other r3tt3s have good ones. I copied the idea from the happiness project.
Night Owl Anon
Are there any professionals who could hold me down and hypnotize me long enough to plant this idea in my head?! I’m way, way, way into adulthood but still struggle with declaring it a day and going to bed already.
wildkitten
Set an alarm of when to turn off electronics and get ready for bed. And then actually do it (the hard part).
oh yes
Ditto. Electronics in bed is the number one killer of my sleep. I also like to create a dark, relaxing atmosphere by drawing the blinds and shutting all the lights off.
Meg Murry
The only things that kinda help me are:
1) Setting lots of alarms on my phone. One for “time to get ready for bed”, and another for GTFTB
2) Making a Facebook curfew pact with a few friends, where one or all would announce it was curfew time and send messages to each other to go to bed (basically publish shaming)
3) A no electronics in bed rule. No laptop, no TV, no phone.
But yeah, I am never going to be a grownup because I am horrible about making myself go to bed at a reasonable hour. I just don’t wanna!
Former Partner, Now In-House
This falls squarely in my “I am a grown up and I pay the mortgage and I can do what I want in this house” category. I LOVE going to sleep early. Sometimes as early as 8:00 pm. I wake up at 5:30 most days to exercise, so being in bed at 8:00 (on the few nights it happens) is heaven.
For Night Owl, try getting up at the same early time every morning. Eventually you will have to get to sleep earlier.
Gail the Goldfish
I’m trying to plan a quick beach trip for Memorial Day weekend. Obviously, rental rates are high that weekend. Any suggestions for more reasonably-priced destinations/specific places to stay (doesn’t have to be on the beach, but a short drive to public beach access) that are a less than 4 hour drive from Raleigh, NC? Favorite beaches that don’t get crazy crowded?
Sarah Says
Yes! All NC beaches should be less than 4 hours from Raleigh. My favorite is Ocean Isle (home/condo rentals check out vrbo/cooke rentals/sloan). IMHO, you can’t go wrong with Brunswick County NC beaches. Another option is Wrightsville or even staying in Wilmington and driving to the water. There’s always the Outer Banks which are about 3.5 hours from Raleigh. Don’t go to Myrtle.
Gail the Goldfish
Thanks! I’ll see what I can find. Yea, I definitely know to avoid Myrtle.
Relationship TJ - when do you know?
Hi all,
I’ve been in a relationship with my bf for about 5 years (friends for 8) and we’re thinking about getting engaged in the near future (4-6 months). We are currently long distance, and part of the timing is because his parents are relatively religious, and would want us to be married before living in the same city. I’m not religious at all, and although the bf is slightly religious, he doesn’t have the same view that his parents do, but does want to get engaged soon to make them happy. He’s also been ready to get married for about 2 years, where I have been less ready, but think I am getting there now. We have been long distance for most of our relationship but did live in the same city for 14 months about 3 years ago (which was wonderful).
I love my boyfriend and I’m pretty sure that he’s perfect for me in every way. He’s supported me emotionally through law school and I’ve been happier in the last 5 years than I have been in my life. I think I’m balking at the idea of engagement on a timeline other than mine. What did you do before you got engaged to make sure you were making the right decision for the right reasons? Has anyone else gotten married for religious reasons that they didn’t agree with?
tesyaa
I don’t think anyone should get married/engaged until they’re ready, and definitely not to please a third party.
Kathryn
First of all– you can’t even live in the same city (even if you’re living apart)?
My honest opinion is that you need to live in the same city before you get engaged. You may find that seeing your SO everyday is very different than seeing them not-very-often. Other than that issue, you clearly don’t want to get engaged yet (can you ask yourself why?). Finally, getting engaged because that’s what his parents want? Not great.
Sorry to be blunt, but you seem like you’re looking for reasons for this not to happen now.
Kathryn
I’m sorry, I did miss where you have lived in the same city.
Hollis
I was long-distance from my now husband of 9 years for the entire 2 years we dated and I felt very much like we knew each other well, because we spent almost every weekend together and longer breaks together (he was in grad school at the time). So we were engaged before he moved to my city and we got married. But other that, I totally agree with all of your points. There’s something here that the OP has not really shared with us.
Kathryn
You’re right, and I overgeneralized. I think I was more balking at them not being *allowed* to live in the same city.
Hollis
“I love my boyfriend and I’m pretty sure that he’s perfect for me in every way. He’s supported me emotionally through law school and I’ve been happier in the last 5 years than I have been in my life.”
What is holding you back from wanting to get married to this guy? 5 years is a long time of being happy together and you are at least in your mid-20s, right? I think we need to know why you “have been less ready” and what you expect will happen in the next X number of months/years that could change that.
Aspen
This.
Anonymous
What’s your timeline?
Relationship TJ - OP answers
OP here. In 5 years together, we’ve gone through a lot and I would like to live in the same city before being engaged (Just to be sure -To go through one transition at a time – To live through each portion of our relationship and really enjoy it). So my timeline would be another year or two from now (or never – I don’t care much about getting married).
But, I do think we’ll end up together. Are there folks here who have gone through something similar? Or who came around to the realization that it *was* the right time more slowly (not a single moment, or an i’ve-always-known)?
Anon
I felt similarly. Looking back on it, I recognize that a) I am generally fond of maintaining the status quo because it just always seems easier/less fraught with potential to go badly, but more importantly b) I really didn’t want to be engaged, to plan a wedding, to deal with a ring, to attend engagement parties with people I barely knew, and to have a big wedding. So we just lived together and then one day when we started to feel silly still calling each other boyfriend and girlfriend, we booked an awesome vacation and eloped whilst on it. It was perfect for us. You should figure out what’s behind your not wanting to be engaged. For me, it turned out I was great with getting married, I just hated all the surrounding BS.
Bee
Couple of thoughts:
1. BF has wanted to get married for 2 years. You’ve told him you’re not ready yet. You now have an opportunity to live in the same city to give you the time you need to feel comfortable with getting married. Instead of jumping on that opportunity, BF holds it hostage until you agree to be engaged.
2. Instead of owning that he doesn’t want to live in the same city as you without more of a commitment (totally valid if it requires him to move, imho), he hides behind his parents’ religious beliefs. Conflict avoidant tendencies like this can lead to big issues. Communication problems are incredibly common and also incredibly destructive, so please work on communicating openly and honestly before you get engaged.
3. If (and this is a big if, because I think he’s just using his parents as an excuse) he would actually let his parents decide for him when he should be engaged, he is so not ready to be married. Part of being an adult is that sometimes you’ll make decisions that your parents won’t like. You need to be able to say, mom and dad, I love you and I respect your opinion, but [thing you disagree with] is the best option for me and I hope you will support me in my decision. Don’t marry someone who will let his parents make HUGE decisions about his life – and about your relationship – for him.
It is totally valid for you to want to live in the same city before getting engaged and you really shouldn’t compromise on that just so BF doesn’t have to have an uncomfortable conversation with his parents. By the same token, if BF is uprooting himself to move to you, it’s totally valid for him to want a greater commitment than “maybe someday” from you before he does that. There’s certainly a middle ground, but it’s going to require a lot of honesty from both of you.
Relationship TJ - OP answers
Curious about what you think the middle ground is? He’s open to continuing the relationship long distance if I’m not ready to be engaged, but if I decide I’d like to live in the same city before engagement, that doesn’t seem like a “middle ground.”
wildkitten
The middle ground is to live in the same city but not together, before you get engaged.
Relationship TJ - OP answers
The issue is about living in the same city. Living together or not is irrelevant.
wildkitten
I don’t understand the religious objection to living in the same city. Can you explain it some more?
Relationship TJ - OP answers
They basically don’t want us having s*x out of wedlock, which is easier for them to believe when we’re not in the same city. It took them a while to come around to our relationship at all, so my bf feels that we should do this to allow them to feel better about us. So…it doesn’t make a lot of sense but it is important to them.
emeralds
That is a JOKE. I’m not willing to get on the BF-using-parents-as-excuse bandwagon, but his parents need to grow up and get into the year 2014. I mean honestly, if their darling baby boy had met a local girl, would they require either of them to move five hours away so that they could “feel better” about the likelihood of them not having sex out of wedlock?
I can’t even with this. That is such an irrational and insane mindset. Do not let that hold you hostage or dictate your major life decisions, about the move OR the engagement.
Anon
I have to agree with emeralds. That is outlandishly manipulative of them and if I were you I would be concerned that your boyfriend allows his parents to have such unreasonable control of his life. This would be a huge red flag for me because if he isn’t willing to stand up to his parents now, he probably isn’t going to be willing to stand up to his parents when you are married. Do you really want your in-laws having veto power over every decision you make in your marriage?
Anonymous
Agree that it is ridiculous of his parents, and ridiculous of him to validate their ridiculousness.
It’s also kind of funny, because I dated a guy whose parents were similarly obsessed with ensuring premarital s*x wasn’t happening. But they had the opposite view on same city vs. long distance–they *hated* that we were long distance because they knew we stayed with each other when visiting. If we had lived in the same city, they could operate under the delusion that we slept in our own separate beds at our separate apartments every night.
Wildkitten
Even with this new information, I agree with myself. The middle ground is to live in the same city but not together, before you get engaged. It’s your boyfriend, not you, who is refusing to meet you at a reasonable compromise.
anon
you can always break off an engagement . . .
Anon
I’m assuming you mean his parents would like you guys to be engaged before living together, not just living in the same city which to be honest, sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Why can’t one of you move and maintain separate households until you are engaged?
To be perfectly honest, it sounds like you’re looking for excuses. I get wanting to do one transition at a time but if that’s what you want, then do it. I don’t think you’re ever going to know 100% – you just have to be confident enough in yourself and in your relationship and him to be willing to make the leap. And you might want to question why after 5 years you don’t feel that.
Relationship TJ - OP answers
No, his parents would like us to be engaged before living in the same city, for religious reasons. I would be fine with living separately in the same city. I appreciate the rest of your comment, though, and think it is still relevant.
Anon
Forgive my ignorance, but what religion would require that two adults become engaged before they are permitted to live the same city???
What if you’d been living in the same city all along – what rule would apply in that instance???
I completely understand engagement-before-cohabitation (though I don’t practice it) – but this is a new one.
Relationship TJ - OP answers
I just responded to wildkitten but I’ll say it here too for clarity (not trying to be snarky, this wasn’t there before).
They basically don’t want us having s*x out of wedlock, which is easier for them to believe when we’re not in the same city. It took them a while to come around to our relationship at all, so my bf feels that we should do this to allow them to feel better about us. So…it doesn’t make a lot of sense but it is important to them.
Anonymous
What crazy a$$ religion is that? The one where obvi you’re f*cking like bunnies if you live in the same zip code, but are totes chaste otherwise? The one where appearances to the group matter more than reality? Screw his parents and their asinine ideas. Tell him that you don’t share those beliefs, you won’t live by them, and it’s important to you to have a relationship where you actually get to see each other before getting married. And if he won’t agree, ask yourself how you’ll feel when your daughter wants to go to college in the same state as her high school boyfriend but your husband won’t let her because granny and grandpa be sads.
Anon
That’s just bizarre. Surely you visit each other, so you could have sex then, if you want. He seems cowed by his possibly crazy and definitely controlling parents – if you ever did end up getting married, would it seep into other parts of your life? There’s a point where he has to stand up to them if he doesn’t agree with them. They’ll probably get over it.
Olivia Pope
I have two thoughts:
1. It sounds like you two have a great relationship overall and should get married. Your BF has wanted to get engaged for years and from what I can tell you want to hold off because of (normal) jitters. I understand wanting to make sure you are marrying the right person, but waiting indefinitely is not going to change anything. I thought going to a pre-engagement counselor was great and I recommend it – it’s good to have someone else ask about your values, what you want for a marriage, et cetera.
2. His parents’ thoughts need to be completely irrelevant to your decision. You two should get engaged or live in the same city, et cetera because you want to be married, not because of his parents’ ideas. Plenty of couples with intense parents have long, happy marriages – but only when they are able to put aside the parents’ ideas as live out their values as a couple.
Whether you and BF have s*x, live in the same city/house, et cetera are decisions that the two of you make, not his parents. Does he acquiesce to his parents wishes just to avoid conflict with them? That would need to change before you got married. This would be an excellent topic with a pre-engagement, pre-marital counselor, by the way.
The focus should be “how do we manage our other (difficult) relationships as a couple.” And I’ll also say that DH and I are making each other better at dealing with our…interesting…family members.
3. Also, his parents are weird. Some people always express their weird personal thoughts in religious terms to give themselves cover, and I think this is what they are doing. And I say this as a deeply religious person who has know many deeply religious people of TONS of religions.
Olivia Pope
That was way more than just two thoughts. And I didn’t check my spelling. It’s Friday.
Rosalita
Agree with this 100%. I don’t see anything wrong with moving to the same city and renting separate apartments. (Especially if his parents want to pay for one of them.)
His parents are delusional that living in the same city but with separate apartments would mean more sleepovers than being long-distance. Helloooo, where do you stay when you visit each other? Are they also under a delusion that one of you gets a hotel room?
I think this is all indicative of bigger issues like how you and your BF will be negotiating the religious views of his parents as your relationship moves forward.
How much does he agree with his parents? That’s what you need to find out.
But to answer your actual question: You should not let anyone but you and your BF dictate your marriage timeline. And I also agree with you that I would want to live in the same city as someone (and maybe the same apartment) for a while before saying yes to a proposal.
Anonish
Well, here’s my 2 cents.
You know, deep down, that he is a great guy. Except… his parents are crazy and he has no balls and both he AND his parents are manipulative.
And you know it. And the “let’s just look at the surface” part of you is saying, he’s great in this way and that way and he makes a great boyfriend and he’s super supportive and and and and”
while the real-you in the back of your mind is screaming, just SCREAMING at you “FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD DON’T CHAIN US TO SPINELESS AND HIS CRAZY PARENTS FOR THE NEXT FIFTY YEARS”
Only you can listen to yourself here.
Anon
omg, i love this comment.
Anonymous
Thank you.
Olivia Pope
For some reason, my alarm bells are not going off. This does like an issue that needs to be addressed and discussed before marriage, but I don’t think you should break up before exploring what he thinks his duties are to his parents and whether those duties extend into when he’s married.
Maybe the alarm bells are silent because they’ve been together for five years and he has wanted to get married for years.
No one is perfect. Marriage is just as much about tackling each others problems as a team as it is life long happiness. You just need to see that your partner is on board with that, as in they recognize the issues and want to work on them.
I’ve seen married couples deal with difficult parents and honestly it’s beautiful to me. Instead of this person dealing with their intense family alone, they have someone who understands how stressful it is and someone to support them emotionally as they stand by their boundaries.
If his attitude is “I wanted to get married years ago and I’ve waited for you, but let’s do this! It’s right and my parents would be happy. ” Great. If his attitude is “I don’t want to get engaged now but my parents say we have to and I MUST OBEY,” then that red flag is waving high.
OP again
Thanks all. Olivia Pope, I do think it is the first feeling rather than the second for him. But I do need to talk more with him about the boundaries he will set with his parents in the future. And for the record, his parents are wonderful lovely people who happen to have strong religious views. I get along with them and don’t have a problem with them being involved in my or our potential future kids’ lives.
Thanks everyone!
M-C
Totally agree with anonsh. I think you should be very careful to live in the same city, on your own terms, for a good long while before you agree to even get engaged to this guy. In laws are a big part of marriage, and these ones sound totally cuckoo. Think of the consequences were you to have kids…
Then again maybe you should respect their wishes and not move to his city at all. And look around your own with more of an open mind :-).
Hollis
Any lawyers out there who made partner at law firm, and then went in-house? May I ask why you went in-house? And do you wish you had gone in-house earlier? I’m so close to making partner at a firm where my partners have pretty good work-life balance, but nothing in life is guaranteed and I’m wondering if I should make the switch now or if I’d be more attractive to companies (and maybe get higher pay) if I applied with a partner title on my resume. My main reason for wanting to go in-house is that I think it will be less stressful, I hate tracking every 6 minutes of my day, and I like collaboration and prefer working together towards long-term goals.
Anon
Didn’t make partner first, but I am in-house, and we’ve never hired an attorney at partner level. You won’t get higher pay – you won’t get hired, because you’ll be too expensive.
anon
+1
Reiss Smithfield
It can’t be impossible. I know of several partners who left to go in-house. Julie Sweet left Cravath to become GC of Accenture: http://newsroom.accenture.com/news/accenture+names+julie+spellman+sweet+as+general+counsel.htm
New York Times lists a bunch more people: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/in-a-rare-move-a-cravath-partner-leaves-for-another-firm
Reiss Smithfield
Gah in moderation because of 2 links.
It can’t be impossible. I know of several partners who left to go in-house. New York Times lists a bunch of people: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/in-a-rare-move-a-cravath-partner-leaves-for-another-firm
Anon
No, it’s certainly not impossible but it is much harder.
MiddleCoast
The grass isn’t always greener. I’m at a governmental agency and we (all staff in the agency) track our time in 10 minute increments, coding each increment with elements from three sources – 1) a master-task list, 2) a project/program list and 3) a budget-grant list. Takes me an hour to do my timecard.
We never hire partners nor do we hire directly from law schools, rather we take people with a few years under their belts at a big-law firm as staff attorneys, then promote to senior staff after a few years. Currently, we are downsizing via attrition, our most senior attorney is retiring today and we are not replacing him. The projects he worked on have been divided up amongst the rest of us.
Anonymous
Partners leave to go in house all the time from my firm. Typically to GC positions. Usually because they’re a few years in , not cutting it in terms of rainmaking, and are being pushed out (gently, but pushed).
Afternoon Tea in London?
Looking for recommendations for afternoon tea in London next week. The Ritz and Claridge’s are booked up, and I went to tea at the Savoy on my last visit. I’ve heard good things about Brown’s and the Mad Hatter’s Tea at the Sanderson hotel. I’m staying in Belgravia, though can travel to other neighborhoods.
LadyB
I thoroughly recommend the Goring Hotel in Victoria (just behind Buckingham Palace). It’s a wonderful old family hotel, run by lovely people. The place isn’t on the tourist trail (or wasn’t when I lived in London) so there’s a sense of being party to a secret rather than going to the same place as everyone else.
The Goring is also where Kate Middleton spent the night before her wedding if you like that sort of thing.
Anonymous
Less spendy, but The Orangerie at Kensington Palace and the Portrait Gallery top floor cafe both do a lovely one.
anon
I was just in London & did high tea at the Dorchester Hotel; absolutely lovely room (prettier than the Ritz in my opinion), unlimited tea sandwiches & perfect service.
anon
FWIW I totally recommend tea at Browns – and if you are an Agatha Christie fan, Bentram’s hotel is based on Browns.
V
So, my boyfriend and I have started seriously talking about getting engaged / married (yay!)
Due to our significant income differences (I make about 4x what he does, and am fortunate enough to have significant savings), I will be buying the engagement ring/rings (I’m kind of inclined to get him one as well, since it seems a little less strange that way). I’d like to keep the total cost of the ring/rings under $2,000; spending more than a mortgage payment on jewelry seems a bit crazy to me, and I want to have something which I’m comfortable wearing every day. The thought of wearing a $5k or $10k ring scares me!
I’m totally open to (and would almost prefer) a non-diamond ring, or even something without gemstones at all if it’s reasonably attractive / interesting.
Any suggestions for jewelers or websites to look at? Thanks!
wildkitten
Costco.
Anonymous
+1 to Costco… you’d be surprised what they have
anon +45
No specific places to recommend, but congrats on both of you getting engagement rings! My hubby & I both have engagement rings bec. we were both engaged, much as we’re both married. We had ours made by a local artisan.
Anon
Etsy has some good, unique choices.
L
Third Costco, but also Blue Nile for other options. Congrats!
Wannabe Runner
Nothing says you have to have a diamond, or that you have to spend tons of money. My dad gave my stepmom a beautiful sapphire ring.
I wear an Irish claddaugh ring as an engagement ring and a very simple matching gold band as a wedding band. The claddaugh was $250 from an Irish store and the band was $99 from Zales. We could have afforded much more.
And, as you proceed in the wedding process, remember that none of the traditions matter except the ones that are actually meaningful to you and your future husband. Good luck!
Anonish
My ring is a ruby, and I love it.
My husband had to really hold his ground in the jewelry store though, they tried HARD to convince him that his soon to be fiancee REALLY wanted a diamond. Fortunately, he just said, I’m the one marrying her so I think I’d know better than you what she wants.
Definitely look at other options!
Deep End
I have a sapphire and love it! We picked it out and bought it together and the salesman tried to convince me that it was too non-traditional and I should really get a more traditional choice. Of the 3 weddings I’m going to this year, all the women have non-traditional rings. 2 of the couples are designing their wedding rings together, which are so cool!
Monday
+1. I walked into the first jeweler’s (with my now-husband) and said I wanted a square colored sapphire. The guy not only wouldn’t make it, but claimed that no other jeweler would either. Then he showed us a bunch of diamonds, which we had said we didn’t want. It was total BS–the next place we went offered us about 7 different brightly colored sapphires and I ended up with something I love. I’m sure some traditionalists think my ring is weird, but many people compliment me on it, and most importantly I love it. Do you.
Olivia Pope
I have an aquamarine ring for my engagement ring because I liked the color. It was from a store in the mall. I have a plain band from Amazon. Total less than $400 for both.
Don’t feel pressured to spend your whole budget, just look around and buy what you want! Congrats!
Anon
eastsidebride.com has wonderful round-ups of non-diamond rings and other non-traditional and vintage styles. I think there are some posts on rings for men, too.
eagon
And check out vintage rings, too. Can often find a matching set.
anon
Hi current and former litigators! I would really appreciate some advice. I just accepted an offer for a fantastic entry-level litigation job, starting in about six weeks. It’s at the sort of place where I can assume I will be spending long nights and weekends in the office during the first year. Currently, I have some things to finish at my current employer, and then I will be moving to a new city to get set up. What would you suggest doing to prepare during the downtime? I have seen threads in the past that hint at getting standard appointments (doctor, vision, etc.) out of the way first, but is there anything else you would recommend? Thank you for any ideas!
roses
Make sure you truly are happy with the place you move into. If you have any doubts, figure out how to bolt ASAP. There’s nothing worse than spending all day at work only to come home to a place you’re miserable in or where you have to deal with repairs, a surly landlord, etc.
Other than that, I will say that one thing I didn’t expect at my firm was that it’s really not busy ALL the time. I’ll have 2 weeks of hell and then a week where it’s really slow. Most of my friends at other firms have had similar experiences. If this is your experience too, maximize your slow times. Leave work early and go grocery shopping, get a haircut, meet up with friends. You need to maintain a life outside of work somehow – even if intermittently – or you’ll go nuts.
Wannabe Runner
This question confuses me. What “downtime” are you talking about? The part where you move to a new city and are “getting set up”?
roses
Yeah, I read it as the time between when she moves and when she starts her job in six weeks.
anon
Yes, that’s what I meant. Getting set up gives me a more flexible schedule (hence, at least in my mind, “downtime”) than the work schedule I’m starting with. And, thank you for the suggestions, roses!
Shopping help
Any ladies up for helping with some shopping? I need a dress for my sister’s college graduation at the end of April, in a warm weather climate. I am open to any kind of suggestions. I am finding myself stuck in a bad shopping cycle – I keep looking at dresses that I would normally buy for work, but I think they are too serious. My typical dress style is conservative.
Carine
Have you looked at Boden? They have so many day dresses, in fun prints and colors, and all different necklines/sleeve lengths.
Lily-Student
+1
Boden sounds perfect for this.
Brit
Bah, why did I come back here, read this, and go look??? Now, I want ALL the dresses because it’s finally getting nice enough to wear them! Curses…
Brittany
I would suggest Lands End. I just fell back into them after walking past their section in Sears the other day and bought a cute day dress there that I’ll probably end up wearing to my mom’s graduation in May.
Shopping help
Thanks ladies! I will take a look at both Lands End and Boden.
Cold water creek
Going to liquidate before mothers day, good sales coming? Any ideas on the fit, will need to go try on as s no returns available
Anonish
I am busty on top and find their jackets fit well. I can buy a 6 or 8 and button it, which doesn’t usually happen, but they aren’t super boxy.
I don’t know about pants. Sizing is similar to Ann Taylor, if that helps.
Gail the Goldfish
Yea, I saw that. I own this top in multiple colors for work: http://www.coldwatercreek.com/product-detail/68253/75350/silk-cotton-bateau-shell.aspx?colorid=J84&refLink=outlet-sweaters.aspx
Their stuff tends to look older to me, but some stuff is good. I don’t know about pants, but I think their tops run large. I wear an XS in coldwater creek and wear a S/M in gap, banana, S in ann taylor/loft. Oh, and occasionally they have good accessories.
Anonymous
I’ll be working all weekend (large law firm) and want to daydream of a new profession. Did any of you leave law? What practice area did you leave? Where did you go? How far along were you in your career before making the switch? Any regrets?
Min Donner
Still in law, but very far removed from biglaw… which I left after 4.5 years to go to an international court. I was a litigation association, and could have/would have moved to an in demand specialist practice, but chose to take this opportunity and now I am kind of general counsel for the court with HR and administration and contracts law work, and I generally love it. It was a significant (over 50%) pay cut, but I also left the lifestyle I was in where expensive dinners and drinks were the norm and I bought myself many nice things (bags, shoes, clothes, trips) as reward or consolation for the grueling hours and demands and general stress/dissatisfaction. I’ve traveled a ton, saved a bit, developed professionally, and met and married my husband. The only real downside is being geographically far from family and friends.
DCR
No ideas, but I’ll be working all weekend too.
My current dream is to pay off my student loans, save about $50k, and travel the world for 2-3 years. I could be in that position within the next year. Now, if only I could figure out a job I could get after my multi-year around the world trip. Open to any ideas
Avery
That is my plan too! I can do it in about 2.5 years, and then I would take 6 months to a year to travel. Also not sure what job I could get after that, but my intention is to probably transition out of law so hopefully the gap won’t be as bad. Knowing that I have an end date in biglaw makes me much more okay with taking time to travel now as well.
Are you married or dating seriously? It is hard for me to see how I could be in a serious relationship until after all of this…
Wildkitten
There’s a Peace Corps program for married couples, if that would make any sense for your life at some point.
Avery
Thanks — that is good to know in case life moves in that direction.
DCR
Avery –
I’m single. Part of the reason I hate my job is because it doesn’t seem to leave any free time for dating or making friends. During the week, I don’t have time or energy to do anything after work. And then on the weekend, I’m either working or catching up on basic life tasks. Plus, I feel like I can’t make plans with new people cause I’m always having to cancel last minute. So, although I would love to met someone, I doubt that is going to be what holds me back. More likely, it will be my fear of not being able to find a job when I get back.
Anon
Hoping for some tips on negotiating the terms of a new job. (Going to a boutique law firm from large law firm not in New York.) I expect, based on people who have transitioned there from my current firm and what the senior partners have told me that they will match my base salary. I also know that the firm has been very successful for the past few years and that the partners make more than they would in Big Law in our city, but I don’t know how associate bonuses work or to what extent there is some form of profit-sharing with associates. Some benefits I don’t care too much about (I will continue to get health insurance through my husband and I live within walking distance of work, so don’t need commuter benefits, for example). My biggest questions/concerns relate to maternity leave because my husband and I would really like to get pregnant within the next six months. I know that the standard policy is basically the same as at my current firm, but don’t currently know about when it kicks in, etc.
Any tips on how to find out more about all things bonus and maternity leave related as well as any other things that I should find out about and/or negotiate? The last time I made a move I used a recruiter who did all the salary negotiation for me and benefits were set in stone, so I didn’t have to (or wasn’t able to) get into all these details.
Thanks!
Wannabe Runner
Sounds like these are things to ask about in the interview, or ask contacts you have there.
Brunette Elle Woods
I am planning to reach out to a female partner at a very small law firm I would like to work for in the future. I was going to send her an e-mail to see if she would be open to meeting with me to discuss some career options/paths. Essentially, I am trying to build up a relationship rather than throwing my resume at her. I need some suggestions on what to say and how to word it. For background, we are in the same area of law, but different counties and it is a very small circle. I have met her a few times at work events and will be seeing her later this month for a seminar. This is what I have so far:
Hi “First Name”
I hope you are doing well. I am looking forward to the “seminar” later this month. I was wondering if you would be open to meeting with me to discuss possible career paths. I am looking for some guidance from a successful female attorney as I pursue my career in “area of law”.
Please let me know if that is something you would be willing to do. Hope to see you at “seminar.”
Thanks,
Brunette Elle Woods
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Rosalita
This sounds fine to me. Remember to remind her who you are – where you work, how you’ve met in the past, etc.
RR
This sounds good. I’ve done several of these as a partner, and others in my firm do as well. My experience has been that, at least at my firm, the female partners are willing to help female associates.
cbackson
I would omit the “female.” Approach her as a successful attorney, not a successful female attorney – personally, I wouldn’t love it if it seemed like the only reason you were reaching out to me was our shared gender.
Wildkitten
+1. I would omit too, though I’d do it because I think it goes without saying.
LH
+2 This is my instinct too, although I think it might be a little different if you met her though a women’s organization or network.
Brunette Elle Woods
I already sent the email but I included female because I work with only male attorneys. By including female it gives another reason for me to reach out to her. Otherwise she would probably wonder why I’m not going to the other attorneys in my firm. They should be providing guidance and acting as a mentor, but they aren’t which is another reason I would like to leave this firm as soon as possible.
cbackson
I would also maybe underscore a bit that you understand you’re asking her for a favor, and offer her some options if she doesn’t have time to talk to you in person. I get a LOT of requests like this, and I don’t have time to say yes to all of them.