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Weekend Open Thread

DIANE von Furstenberg Maxi Dress - Annie Silk | Corporette

Something on your mind? Chat about it here.

 The simple lines on this gorgeous DVF silk maxi are a great complement to the saturated color. It would be perfect for a summer black tie wedding. Or picnic. In fact, were I the happy owner I would find any excuse to wear it. Swoon. Available at Bloomingdale's for $595 in the color pictured and in a few colorful, summery prints at DVF.com, Shopbop, and Nordstrom for $598. Diane von Furstenberg “Annie” Maxi Silk Dress

—Road Warriorette

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131 Comments

  1. This is the issue I frequently have with maxi dresses. I feel like if they could be appropriate at a black tie event, they wouldn’t be appropriate at a picnic. I frequently end up feeling overdressed unless they are in a very casual fabric.

    This one is beautiful.

    1. I can’t imagine a dress that would be appropriate for both a black tie wedding and a picnic. I don’t really think this dress is appropriate for either one. To me, the cut says picnic but the fabric is too dressy for most picnics.

    2. I have this issue too, except possibly even more severe. Even with a really casual jersey, I feel like whenever I put on a maxi dress, it reads “trying to dress up for a formal evening.” I don’t know what I’m doing wrong exactly because I see other women wearing them around and they look perfectly casual. :(

    3. What a gorgeous dress. Because of the material, I think this one would be too dressy to wear to a picnic but would look great for a more formal events with strappy gold heels.

    4. Yay!!!! Open thread’s!!!! I love Open thread’s and this maxi dress, tho I realy don’t have to many occasion’s that I would be abel to wear it. I think that once I am MARRIED, I will start goeing to alot more formal event’s, and the opera and the theatre, but for now, I am literaly workeing my TUCHUS off to try to find a guy worthy enough to MARRY! If I start buying these now, they will NOT be in style when I need to wear them, after the Children are old enough to be in school, so I can go to the Opera and the Theatre!

      The manageing partner lassooe’d me into to helping his brother find an apartement in Manhattan. He think’s that b/c I live in Manhattan that I am an expert. I had DAD find my apartement, and dad bought it for me and is handeling everything for me, so I know very littel about apartements, and coops and condos and whatever–all I know is that to coop did NOT act to freindly to me when I had to interview. If not for Dad, they would NOT have let me in here.

      The manageing partner’s brother is meeting me at my apartement tomorrow and we are to walk around MY neiborhood b/c he think’s there are more single women where I live then anywhere else in Manhattan, so his chances for sex are the greatest here. What a doosh! I am worried that the manageing partner has told him all about my probelem’s with men and that he will want to date me even tho we are probabley 25+ year’s apart in age.

      I am worried b/c he was stareing at me and smileing with dirty teeth at me. I know already he has a big sex drive, b/c he said so. The mere thought of sex with that guy is gross. He could sureley get a heart attack b/c he is so out of shape and all that huffeing and puffeing could put him over the top. That is all I need. Haveing to have the fire department take him out of my apartement naked is gross! FOOEY! I think I will meet him in the LOBBY when he come’s rather then letting the doorman tell him to come up. I hope I will not get the manageing partner mad at me.

      1. Wouldn’t it be something if one of us found a husband for Ellen? She’d be so happy and we’d be doing her a mitzvah at the same time!

    5. I wonder if Ellen’s managing partner would reimburse her for this dress? Will someone find out?

      1. From what I read above, it does not seem that she is too interested in asking the managing partner for reimbursement on this dress. What is interesting today is that the manageing partner’s brother may put the moves on Ellen — perhaps as we speak — as he is becoming a bachelor again and Ellen likely represents precisely the type of “fresh meat” he is looking for on back in Manhattan. What he probably does not realize — or maybe he does — is that Ellen, despite being very pretty — has a mind of her own — and may well be a younger copy of the woman he is divorcing now. If I had to guess, his wife is high-maintenance, and if he’s hoping to get away from that with a younger woman in Manhattan, good luck to him! In the meantime, I hope Ellen does not get into any kind of compromising position (literally or figuratively) with him, because even though she is now a partner, she does not want to disrupt the equilibrium she has achieved at work with this slob.

      2. I don’t think she could wear this dress to court, but it could be a business expense if she has a black tie work event to wear it to.

  2. Thanks for all the advice on a present for my husband from our cat! I ended up ordering him a mug with the soft kitty lyrics. We’re fans of The Big Bang Theory. I think he’s going to love it! :D

  3. Does anyone have any good Sicily recommendations? Particularly in/around Cefalu? Heading off in a few weeks for a much needed bit of sun and quietude and would appreciate any thoughts on food, beverage, hiking, or “old stuff” in the area.

    1. I haven’t been to Cefalu, but if you venture inland, I found Enna and the surrounding valley to be striking. Enna sits on a knob that rises abruptly out of an almost-flat valley floor. There is a castle (once the site of a temple to Demeter) on the highest point, and according to classical mythology, Persephone was abducted by Hades from a meadow a few miles away.

      I also loved Syracuse.

    2. Eat ALL OF THE CASSATA for me. And cannoli. and arancini.

      My favorite thing to do in Italy is ask servers or random shopkeepers what their favorite dish is or what is a typical dish of the region.

      1. Can woman live on these (along with granita + brichoe and cannoli) alone? Stay tuned for the answer.

    4. It’s been awhile but we’ve had a terrific lunch at Lo Scoglio Ubriaco in Cefalu, seafood, including a good spaghetti con sarde. The restaurant looked unpromising – fronted by a vast dark space on a touristy row, but most folks eat on the stunning terrace suspended over the sea out the back.

      I’ll try to link to a more recent set of recommendations which I’ve bookmarked from a foodie forum but just in case it doesn’t work, search for ’emilie sicily 2013 chowhound’.

  4. Because it’s silk, I bet this looks a lot dressier in person. I would definitely wear it to a black tie event.

  5. This just looks like an expensive muumuu to me. I was going to say it might be an option for a very pregnant woman to wear to a wedding, but the bust looks kind of tight for even that, and it’s pretty pricey to get such limited use out of it. I say this as someone who would spend $600 on a quality staple dress, but definitely not on this.

  6. I need the hive’s advice on something (really hoping I don’t get flamed for this): I’ve recently started dating a new guy and he seems like a great guy and our dates have been great so far. I just have a hard time getting my head around his job. I’d always envisioned myself with a professional and although he is really smart and motivated, he doesn’t have a professional job. I just know that my family and people I work with will only see the fact that he’s not a professional but I really don’t want that to be an issue now. Any advice?

    Thanks ladies!

    1. Im an attorney and I’m happily married to a mechanic. Matters of the heart should not involve a career. And if your family and coworkers look down on you for dating a non-professional, well then, you know now how superficial and judgmental those people are. . . and those are types of people I personally cannot stand. In fact, I think my SO is smarter than me, and has a good job and salary, so to each his own.

      1. I think it’s important that people wake up in the morning with something to do – be that a professional job or other obligations. As long as he is great to you and motivated and you are comfortable with it you really shouldn’t worry! Just talk up his other great qualities to family / coworkers if they start questioning you.

      2. Agree with huh. My husband’s been a retail manager and a cable guy, both of which he liked and was very good at. If he goes to work and performs work that he takes pride in and supports himself, then he is a professional, period.

        Bonus: We’ve been able to make my career the focus of our marriage – he’s moved with me and made arrangements that would have been much harder for a person who was more career-driven, which has really helped my career. And now, he’s a SAHD, which again, makes it much easier for me to advance my career.

        This is sort of my soapbox issue, so bear with me – how often do we complain about women’s work/life balance and how you deal with raising kids and should you prioritize your job for the guy and so forth? This keeps us behind! That’s completely OK, I’m all for prioritizing what is important and it’s fine if that’s not career for many women. But you can’t deny that you will be able to advance your career much more easily if your family focuses on that, the way many career-minded men’s families do, rather than trying to “have it all.” So, keep that in mind.

        Regarding what others might think: a) Scr3w ’em and who cares, but b) you might be surprised – both my husband and I come from very traditional (mostly SAHM) families, and we live in a very red state. Does anyone care that we’re non-traditionally having him stay home with the baby? If they do, they’ve kept quiet about it.

        1. +1

          It may be a little off topic but women who are highly focused on their careers and not willing to marry to man without a high powered career (even though he is good in all other respect) should not complain that their male counterparts advance faster because they have a stay at home wife.

          1. The complaint stems from the belief that it should not be necessary to have a SAHS to advance at the same pace, all else equal. It’s frustrating on multiple levels: (1) some women are just attracted to certain levels of career commitment, and shouldn’t have to date something different because our employers demand we have essentially a service provider spouse to keep us from being bothered by those pesky domestic tasks (that is not at ALL to say those with “less demanding career” spouses basically have a live-in maid, because for those people, the spouse was a good personality and values match–for those who it wouldn’t be though…); (2) it is incredibly difficult to find successful men willing to date successful women, because they recognize the benefit of a SAHW to propel them in their career. Can’t we all date/marry who we want to without it affecting whether we get promoted as quickly because one person can stay late and the other can’t because they have to share daycare pickup duties?

          2. So you want a boss to promote someone who can’t perform as well because she doesn’t have someone helping on the home front because she is attracted to a certain level of career commitment? That’s just not reality. If promotions are based on performance, that’s it, regardless of the reason.

          3. Actually, I want a boss who doesn’t set job expectations based on the idea that I have a personal administrator running my home life just because he and all his friends have stay at home wives who take care of everything. Because I believe it’s fundamentally unnecessary and unreasonable to expect anyone to devote no time to their needs outside of work.

    2. Stop caring about what other people think. Seriously. Do you really want to end up married to someone who your family and friends respect but who is otherwise a lousy partner? Unless this guy is a drug dealer, scam artist, or some other unsavory variety of “non-professional”–who gives a f****?

      1. Agreed. But is it only your family/friends that you think would look down on his profession, or do you as well?

        I don’t think it should be an issue at all unless you will be constantly hoping that he one day transitions to a “professional” job.

      2. I agree but this is easier said and done. Some people just care more than they should about what other people think (I know, I’m one of them). I also think its a little bit of an oversimplification to say “If your friends and family look down on this guy for his job, they’re bad people and who cares what they think” (I’m paraphrasing what a couple people said). While that may be true, its not like she can just run out and get all new friends and family tomorrow, and it can be really hard having your primary support networks not be supportive of your SO, even if its for stupid reasons. I’ve seen a couple friends go through something similar and it has been really hard. She also mentioned coworkers and judgment at her job, which can be tough too because you can’t end those relationships the way you can end or distance yourself from friendships.
        OP – no real advice but I understand how this could be tough. I think the best thing you can do is reiterate all his good qualities and hope that people eventually get to know him and come around. And this probably goes without saying, but if you DO have doubts or insecurities about his lack of professional job, keep it to yourself. Those kinds of things have a way of becoming ammunition when people are looking for something to make fun. If you project the image that you’re 100% ok with his job and don’t have any insecurities about it, people will probably move on to a new conversation topic pretty soon.

    4. Just to be clear, if your family and friends are the type of people who would judge someone for having a “non-professional” job, even if you marry someone who’s a “catch” by their standards, there will still be something wrong with them. You pick who you want to be with and love and tell everyone else to keep their mouth shut.

    5. I have a professional job and my husband works a trade type job. It honestly doesn’t bother me one bit. He works hard and even though he doesn’t have a bachelors degree, he is one of the smartest people I know. I think it does bother him once in a while, especially when he comes to one of my work events and everyone asks where he works but he gets over it quickly. There are also benefits to his job vs. mine, for example he gets twice as much vacation time and his hours are very consistent and he never has to work late/bring work home…etc.

      I guess it just comes down to who you think it’s going to bother. If to doesn’t bother you two nothing else matters :)

    6. In moderation but there was a topic post about this with some good responses on 1/26/12.

    7. Just to mention the other side of the coin – my first husband was a construction foreman in a family business and a mechanic at a tire/lube spot during the time we were dating and married. I definitely felt some of the snob factor from non-close friends, who then ceased to be friends.

      However, it turned out that our backgrounds and expectations of marriage were too different. He constantly felt “inferior.” In the end, he felt more comfortable away from me, working, often in distant cities. This coincided with some serious mental health issues on his part, but his discomfort around my family and friends (because of HIS issues, not because anyone was rude to him – but he also had a pretty limited vocabulary… idk, he had a hard time keeping up with the convo, for example) and ultimately me was fatal to the relationship. We were married for 9 years, most of which we spent trying to reconcile our lives and our expectations.

      All this to say that the job really means nothing, it’s the person’s background and viewpoint on life that really matter. Sometimes the job is linked to that, sometimes it totally isn’t. So if your concern is really just about the career/job factor, forget about the snobs. If the concern stems from a more fundamental compatibility issue, that’s where I would recommend hesitation.

      1. This.

        My mom’s ex-husband was a mechanic, and while he was a great guy and a wonderful step-father during the marriage, they just weren’t right for each other. That isn’t to say that her issue was with his occupation, it was with his lack of motivation and the fact that they were just two different people.

        If everything else is great in the relationship, why question it? You do you.

      2. Yep, it’s really the values and expectations of the person. My boyfriend’s family is college educated, and his father was a banker, but he’s a very pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps kind of guy. Not into fancy things or cultural events, doesn’t like “foreign” food, very salt-of-the-earth. My mother was a nurse, and was the first college-educated person in our family, but she can recite entire books of poetry, introduced me to opera, and has lived across the world.

        Occupation is a good shortcut to understanding people’s values, but it’s not foolproof. People can surprise you.

    8. My $0.02 – As long as he is supportive of your career and you are attracted to him (despite job) and love him, it shouldn’t matter. I dated a teacher, but in the end, he was not supportive of my career. My parents never went to college, so maybe that kind of shapes my outlook. My dad is the most amazing person in the whole world (smart, polite, gentleman, fun, hard worker, great dad), but he’s a machinist.

      1. Also not saying there is anything wrong with teachers and not trying to start a debate about whether a teacher is /isn’t a professional. :) In my case, it was clear that I was the job-minded person in the relationship and the ex was not.

      2. My first husband was a teacher and BigLaw attorney/teacher was a great combination for us. He had lots of time off, he was off in the summers, got home at the same time every afternoon. We split for other reasons but the job thing was a plus, not a minus.

    9. I’m an attorney and my husband works a trade. He has awesome benefits which is great because most law firms aren’t exactly known for their awesome benefit plans. I would hate talking about finance or the law when I get home so I can’t imagine being married to another attorney. He balances me out and keeps me grounded. It helps that he is really good at networking events.

    10. I think there are two issues here. First, I completely agree that dating or marrying somebody who works in a trade or other non-professional job shouldn’t be an issue as long as he is your equal intellectually, with respect to ambition, and so on. If your family and friends are big ol’ snobs, that’s their problem. (You may be surprised, though. Me, personally, and many people I know have mad respect and admiration for people who work in the trades.)

      Second, though, if you are going to be earning a lot more money than he is you need to think about how that will play out long term. In many states the lower-earning spouse is going to be entitled to half your earnings during the marriage as well as spousal support afterwards and a share of any retirement funds or pension right accumulated during the marriage. Moreover, if you decide to have your husband stay home with your kids while you go out to work, it becomes quite likely that upon divorce he would be awarded primary physical custody of the kids, possession of the family home, and significant spousal and child support. Nobody ever intends to get divorced but it happens and it’s definitely something to think about and prepare for in advance.

      1. My grandfather is extortionately wealthy and has pre-prepared the prenups for all the grand children. Beyond that my SO is military and I am professional so there is an education and wage gap. He makes the occasional snarky comment about my academics but hes generally proud of me.

      2. 100% agree with the concerns and you are right to think about it. Yes, it might be fine as it is for many responders here, but the potential pitfalls are fair, less about job and more about fit:
        1. Cultural. Do you and he feel like equals in talking and being. Do you care if you can comfortably mix him with work people? Ie will he hate it, or will they make him feel badly? Many of my best friends are now work people (you work and travel together a lot..) and they are highly educated globetrotters, not snobby, just used to their frames of reference being what they are. They are friendly and awesome to those from other backgrounds. Not all crowds are. (I’m not working in law anymore).

        2. Financials- during relationship. Do you have lifestyle preferences higher end than his? If so, are you okay paying for both you and him to enjoy them? Before my spouse suddenly left after 10 yrs, I’d have said sure. Now I’m more world-weary and no way will I subsidize someone else, have lost years of my own working income this way.

        3. Financials- if it ends and you’ve been married. See above comments. This could ruin your future. I know a woman who is a successful corporate attorney basically working now to pay for her ex’s new family. She can’t quit- the court imputes your earning power to you after you’ve had it, so you have to keep working like a dog- and dude with lower income record gets paid, no matter whether he cheated and left. Seriously. F*cked up world.
        Not to mention lack of equivalency in retirement ability etc., but I’m not making any assumptions here- honestly many trade folks make better incomes than professionals and have better benefits. Totally depends.

        4. Your internal secret respect meter. I too have that thing about having envisioned myself with a professional. People can judge, but it’s just part of my outlook. Can’t help it. I’m dating, and haven’t been able to feel enough respect or excitement about guys with certain jobs. I’m trying to be flexible, but it’s also the image expectations and lifestyle stuff. My friend is dating a guy and while I don’t care what her guy wears, I’d find it annoying (admitting this online…) if my guy showed up at friend’s parties in baggy thick sport-themed sweatpants. It looks ghetto to me. He’s a sweetheart, and cute. He also helps his immigrant family a ton- by driving his dad to work at 4:30 every morning, etc.- which makes it hard for her to have time for just the two of them and a ‘normal life’. Of course that’s all subject to one’s definition of normal- lawyers and businesspeople work weird hours and wear odd clothes. That’s the point: what feels a certain way to you and your identity/history does matter. You can’t shake it just by wanting to.

        5. Plus side: non-prof jobs- guys may be more in touch with themselves as men, or people in general, or working with hands… profs sometimes have to seek outlets for these sides of themselves because they don’t get it in the daily practical sense at work. Kind of cool and manly. Depending what it is.

        6. Plus side- if he’s a great guy and good to you that counts for a LOT. “Love” isn’t always enough but ignoring my cynical reality side I’d like to believe it can be for some.

    11. Only you can decide whether others’ perceptions or opinions of his job will bother you. However, you also have to really think about your expectations and whether his career choice will meet yours, or eventually become a point of contention or resentment.

    12. Thanks ladies for all your supportive and thought-provoking responses. I’m going to keep dating this guy and see how it all goes but you’ve all given me a lot to think about

  7. Does anyone have advice for shells or other basic under-blazer tops that are not too boxy, especially for women who are curvy on top? I’ve looked through the best blouses guide here on Corporette already, but nothing really jumped out at me as really elegant/pretty and also really versatile/a wardrobe staple. I’m just looking for basics that actually look good on my frame – I’m short and very short-torsoed, curvy on top.

    1. I like the Calvin Klein ones from Macys, the pleated ones are nice and the cowl neck is good too, not too low cut.

    2. There is a designer local to me who makes a fantastic basic top. http://dawn-baker.com/shop/clothing/tops/short-sleeve-vneck-silk-top.html

      I am very curvy on top as well, and this blouse a fantastic fit for me (36DD, also with athletic build… so size 12 on top. I take a size 3 in this blouse). It is very versatile, and looks good tucked in or untucked.

      I’ve also had luck with surplice tops recently; with the style, I can often go down a size because they are cut well if you are curvy on top.

    3. I have had good luck with pleated or split neck shells. I get most of mine from the Banana Republic Factory store (BR sometimes has good options, but for whatever reason the factory store seems to carry more shells). They are definitely not fitted through the waist/torso, but I generally wear mine tucked into a skirt with a jacket/cardigan, so the shape of the shell (or lack thereof) doesn’t matter so much.

  8. Does the job bother you? Is it a deal breaker? Is he ambitious? Do his life priorities and path mesh with where you can see yourself going? Do you consider yourself to be on a similar level intellectually and if not, does that bother you?

    Ask yourself these things. For me, it wouldn’t be a deal breaker if someone wasn’t a professional; but it would be over if that person lacked ambition or a plan for their future- even if they were a professional.

    1. Uhhh… yeah. That was supposed to be a reply to Anon Lawyer at 4:08… An Edit button, an Edit button, my kingdom for an Edit button!!

  9. I’m giving my first CLE in a couple months. For those of you who have attended CLE’s, what things did the presenter do that you liked or appreciated? Conversely, what things did you not like? I only have a half hour slot and don’t necessarily want to do a PowerPoint because I think they’re largely unneccessary and boring. (I know there are exceptions and that some people love them and rock at giving PowerPoint presentations, I am just not one of those individuals.) I would like to provide a packet of written materials because to me, that seems more helpful. But obviously I’m interested in opinions other than my own! Any thoughts, ladies? TIA!

    1. In all honestly I have NEVER paid attention in a CLE, do not worry, we are all just htere because we are bored senseless and have to.

      2. I will never remember the wise words of a partner on the day I was to give my first CLE. He asked me how I was going to do, and I was honestly hoping for a little pep talk.

        Me: I’m actually pretty nervous about this.
        Partner: Person, just remember this. No one in that room gives a sh*t. No one pays attention at these things.

        It oddly made me feel so much better.

        But written materials are a MUST, in my opinion. And give them out at the beginning so people can take notes on the off chance that they are listening. :) Good luck!

      3. +1. It’s a who cares presentation. If it ends up interesting, bonus. I never pay attention to who’s talking either. Low stakes.

    2. Just remember: This is not one single thing you can say after your time has expired that will not make everyone hate you. ;)

      Also, consider handing out the materials at the end because if you hand ’em out at the beginning, everyone will be leafing through the materials rather than listening to what you are saying.

      1. Oh, please don’t do the latter. I have below-average hearing, and am just not an auditory learner at all. I have an extremely difficult time following something where I don’t have slides to look at to connect what I am hearing. And oftentimes CLE rooms are set up with odd configurations where it’s not even possible to see the speaker’s mouth or any slides on a projector because of the woman in front of you who keeps shifting in her seat and is rocking the 1980s hairdo. If someone gave a presentation with no handout, I’d get frustrated and end up doing work on my phone. Is that really better than me staring at the materials the speaker prepared while listening to her?

    3. I don’t know if this will translate well in to your area of law, but we had a CLE on a unique area of sentencing law in our state and what kinds of things to watch out for when advising a client. The presenters went over the basic law and then had lots of examples for us to work out and figure out which would be the best deal. It was so engaging and I learned so much. They also set it up as a contest and had little prizes for whoever got the answer first.

      1. This is exactly what I was looking for, thank you. I have wondered whether people enjoy working through hypotheticals and the contest/prizes environment. I’m sure some people would prefer to just zone out, but I think for those who really want to learn the material, working through examples might be a helpful way of processing it.

        1. I love contests with prizes, but I also really love being shown clip from a movie that highlights the point. Funny ones are best (usually presented as a “what not to do”) but dramatic clips are equally compelling.

          1. Yes, this. But don’t make it overly cutesy, either. I hate the CLEs that are heavy on the sarcasm. And what’s up with people not paying attention? There are a handful of CLEs I attend every year along with many of my peers, and we pay attention or are otherwise engaged. Why go if you’re not going to pay attention? I’d rather do the homestudy and paint my toenails in the background/do laundry, run on the treadmill than be zoned-out in a conference room for two days. And besides, don’t you need that case law update?! :)

    4. I’m not sure what your CLE is about, so this might not be applicable, but I always like ancedotes/stories/examples from your own experiences in the subject area; it makes it less dry and boring to hear. Also, agree that handouts beforehand are better; yes we’ll look at them first, but it’s hard to follow without one. Put much less on the handout than you actually say and people will still pay attention.

      (I’m a long-time reader – several years – and occasional commenter. I’ve always posted anon, in part because my comments are usually weeks or months apart so I figured no one would remember me anyway, but based on recent conversations about creating a community/etc. I’m trying out a handle. So, hi everyone! You can call me Tibby — someone let me know if that’s taken!)

      1. Hi Tibby! I also have been a daily reader for over four years. Only just started posting very occasionally starting six months ago under Anonymous and now am also trying a handle and to participate more in this great community.

        1. Welcome to Tibby and McGiggles. Unoriginal but sincere (and sleep-deprived) over here.

    5. Specifics, specifics, concrete specifics. Basically, if I could get the gist of your presentation by reading one of those mostly worthless think-pieces that are a dime a dozen in legal trade publications (“5 things to consider before you…” “10 tips for…”), then it’s a waste of time. If you must, include that in the materials. Concrete examples and specifics are by far the most helpful thing I take from CLEs– well, that and example forms that sometimes are helpful for approaching a new situation. So, if you’re doing a CLE on internal investigations, it’s not but so helpful to say, “It’s important to remind employees that you are the corporation’s lawyer, not theirs.” I probably know that. But it’s enormously helpful for me to hear: “When I approached this issue with a large multinational, I developed a script with their GC that emphasized the following 3 points…” Adapt as necessary for your area of law. And have fun! If you’re enjoying yourself, it aids me immensely in paying attention. Best of luck!

  10. YOU GUYS!!! My offer on the house was accepted and I’m in escrow as of today! SO EXCITED!! It’s a lovely little house in a great neighborhood and the price was such that I’ll have enough money left from the buyout on the Former Marital Residence to trick it out just the way I want it!

    Woo frickin’ hoo!!!

    8. Thanks a lot, ladies. Super big fun, for sure. I’m meeting my contractor at the house this afternoon to look around and start thinking about the work we want to do.

  11. How do you know when/if it’s time to “lean out,” even just a little bit? I’m a mid-level associate at a BigLaw firm in NYC and I’m burnt out. I’m ready to move on to my next step, and I’m thinking about making a big change — leaving NYC for a smaller city and taking a job at a more relaxed firm or (if possible) in-house. I’m not married and I don’t have kids, but I very much want both of those things in the future (I’m 30). I’m exhausted and stressed out all the time, I’ve had various health issues this year (that seem to get better whenever I’m on vacation, hmm…), and I miss my friends/reading/cooking/etc. I also feel like I don’t have time to date or do any of the kinds of hobbies/interesting activities that lend themselves to meeting people. I want to be a “normal person” who isn’t billing 200-250 hours a month and has time for a life. I’m not sure anymore that it’s possible to have a relaxed job and make enough money to live comfortably in this city. I have tons of friends and family here, but no significant other or anything tying me down. I’m outgoing and love meeting new people, and have friends in various cities around the country, so I’m not that worried about building up a new social network somewhere else (actually see it as a bit of an adventure).

    Given all of that, this change sounds like a good plan, except…I’ve been on this ladder for so long: worked my a** off in high school, college, and law school, all to get here. I’ve worked very hard during my years at the firm to build up a great reputation. I’ve also been in NYC for a decade (since a month after college). I’m a little worried about how I’ll feel when I’m on the other side. My concerns: I don’t know how much of my self-confidence and self-worth comes from my professional achievements, I don’t know whether I’ll feel bored and unchallenged if I leave this environment, and I don’t know how much of my need to get out of NYC is just tied up with my current job and whether I’ll miss it terribly if I leave. I’m also not sure how hard it would be to “lean back in” if I decide I want to do that someday.

    For those of you who’ve “leaned out,” not for spouses/kids but just because you wanted a different life, do you regret it? Did you change your mind and try to get back in? How did you decide to do it in the first place? Should I start with a smaller step (taking a new job but staying here?)? Help. (Also, btw, this is not to say that going to just any firm/company outside NYC would necessarily be easier or leaning out. I would plan on both moving AND going to a less stressful firm — I know that there are hard-working/long-hours/challenging firms in other cities! Not planning on going to one of those.)

    2. I can’t address a lot of your concerns but it is possible to find jobs that are challenging and allow you to achieve professional goals while working 8-9 hours per day, with relatively consistent hours. I don’t know if those jobs would necessarily be as prestigious, if that’s what you mean by getting your self-confidence and self-worth from professional achievements. But as far as successfully negotiating agreements, winning cases, representing clients, etc. you can definitely find interesting, challenging work at jobs that don’t require crazy hours. In my experience, the trade off is generally salary. You can earn a decent living, but not a big law salary.

      Also, living in a lower cost of living city would allow your salary to stretch a lot farther while not significantly diminishing your qualify of life. Not working crazy hours would also allow you to spend less on tasks that you currently outsource due to having sufficient money to throw at the problem while lacking the time.

    3. I leaned out when I was 33 and single. Moved to a smaller city and a regional firm from big city BigLaw. I had more time than I knew what to do with and was in a city where many people that age are married and have kids. But, oddly, my career is probably better off for it (and now I’m married with children, so it’s just as hectic as my old life, just a different hectic). I’m now an income partner in my new city in a firm that is BigLaw (Bigger Law, actually) via merger. Still, not NYC hours or commute, both of which save me. Don’t wait to late to leap — if you’re senior, people will as about your portables; now, people just want skills and experience.

      1. Also: NYC is one of those places that you can always visit. It is soooo much more fun to visit. You know your way around, but you don’t have to work! Or commute! And you trade shocking rent for just a few days of shocking hotel bills (but for now, you may have friends with a couch to loan you).

        I think NYC is great, but the things that make it great were things I never got to do. Life went by in a blur.

    4. I’ve never lived in NYC (and never wanted to), so you might take this with a grain of salt, but: with your background, it is likely that you can be a bigger fish in a smaller pond in a smaller city. So moving could still be a good career move, even if you’re no longer looking to climb the corporate ladder.

    5. If getting married and having kids is important to you – you may want to consider if it will be difficult to find a mate in the smaller town. You might very well – Dr. Hart keeps running into appropriately aged single men in Bluebell – but it’s something to consider.

      1. I’m not sure this is too big a concern. There is a lot between NYC and rural towns. I’m on the left coast but Seattle, Portland, SF, and Denver are all more affordable than NYC, and definitely still have good dating scenes.

        1. SF is really only marginally cheaper than NYC but I agree Seattle, Portland, Denver and many other decent-sized cities are good bets. Lots of places are much cheaper than NYC/SF (and even Boston/DC) but still have plenty of young, single, professionals.

          1. I left NYC for Seattle 8 yrs ago and never looked back. Didn’t give up a thing except the pizza. West coast only drawback is far from family on east, but beyond that it’s heaven- work balance is better, life is better. housing prices and food are not that low, but you get way more than in NYC. As for the men… well I’m working on that… was married when I got here, now divorced and dating… the pool in NYC is more drinky-money-fratty focused, the crowd here more Portlandia in every way.. pick your poison? They are into ‘alternative lifestyles’ instead of monogamy, independence, etc.. but I have lots of friends here with nice loyal ‘normal’ husbands. The dating pool is a bit troubling but I suppose that’s any big city with the too many choices problem these days.

          2. I really struggled with the dating pool in Seattle. This is going to make me sound ridiculously old-fashioned, but I struggled to find me who were marriage-minded. It was way more common to encounter men who were in their mid-thirties and still not sure how they felt about monogamy than guys who were looking to settle down. Ultimately, I felt like I was too square for Seattle guys – I was looking for a husband who wanted to have some kids and have awesome family adventures, and I felt like they wanted that…someday. Maybe in their forties. After a polyamory phase.

          3. Hmm… I had heard that about Portland but not about Seattle. That’s really interesting and helpful. I find that I’m encountering that a lot with men in NYC; not so much polyamory as just not wanting to be in relationships in general (open or not) until later in their 30s/40s when they’re done focusing on their careers/sleeping their way around the city. I had a 35-year-old guy tell me he definitely wants kids, but “someday, like a decade from now,” which is fine for him but, you know, not possible for women. Is that just a problem with cities in general? Thoughts on Denver?

          4. CBJackson, what did you do?… sigh, you are exactly right… and they DON’T grow out of it in their 40s. Ugh. I’m getting pretty annoyed about it at the moment.

          5. I hate to say this, but: I moved. To a city where marriage is the standard. I haven’t met the right guy yet, but the men I’ve been out with have all had that as a near-term goal.

          6. cbjackson.. where?:) i do like my life here otherwise… job, and there is the custody thing as the ex is here… and i do love the pnw… but shoot i am not glad to hear you confirm my assessment of the 40 going on 17 thinking they are so avante garde dating pool.

      2. Yes, I would make sure to carefully evaluate the new city before moving. I moved from NYC to a city with a pop of about 500k for a job. It was a clear promotion so not quite a lean out-ish scenario but I was really excited by the QoL gains. That said, it has been shockingly tough to meet friends, let alone date. In my mid-30s age demo the vast majority of people are married with young kids. I had never really felt like an outlier for being a single 30-something before so it’s been a weird adjustment. I think it’s a great idea to move and depending on the job it might not even be a step back in terms of relative “prestige” or “interestingness” (I hate to break it to diehard New Yorkers but there is a huge world off the island of manhattan). I would just be careful to choose your new city well.

    6. I left NYC earlier this year for a smaller city when I realized that NYC is a great city if you have a) lots and lots of money or b) lots and lots of time, but I didn’t have either of those and wasn’t likely to any time soon. I haven’t had a bit of regret since my move. I actually went from a small(ish) firm in NYC to a big firm in my new smaller city, with a bigger salary, slightly better hours, and a much shorter commute. Honestly, with the difference in cost of living, if I miss New York, I can just go visit for a weekend and do the things I didn’t have time to do when I lived there and still come out ahead. I moved with my BF, so I can’t speak to dating in a new city, and I moved back to the area I went to college in (but a different town), so it wasn’t a completely new place. Overall, it’s been a great decision. People are way more laid back here than NYC and have lives and interests outside of work, and the time to actually do them.

    7. Someone asked a similar question a while back, and I wrote about financial considerations before making such a move. Essentially, consider how much money you want to have when you retire, then work backwards to find the NPV today, then save that much (and pay off debt, have a car in good working order, etc.) before you move. If you run a search for my handle and this site and retire and freedom, you’ll likely find it.

      1. I see why this would give you a lot of security, but people who aren’t in biglaw do manage to save for retirement and have working cars and pay off debt; there are tradeoffs and I don’t think the OP should feel like she can’t do anything else until she’s set for retirement.

        1. Agreed, plus company benefits often far outpace big law so you save on health insurance and get 401k matching – neither of which were features at big law. Between those two, I get 1k a month extra toward retirement without doing anything extra just off the top.

    8. I leaned out after 5 years in big law (went in-house and hours are half of big law). Best thing I ever did and I haven’t looked back at all. My time is my own, I make plenty to live on (just not lavishly), I have friends Gain, hobbies, good relationships with my family, oh and I had time to date and meet a SO. I still have a career too, it’s just not insane. And now, the “big law” “success” mentality just makes me chuckle but I took it seriously while brainwashed. My advice is lean out of big law as fast as you can. Your mental health is worth a lot.

    9. Thanks so much for the responses, everyone. It’s so good to hear that those of you who made this move haven’t regretted it. Wildkitten, the possibilities for finding a SO are definitely one consideration of mine, which is why I’m thinking of places that are still decently-sized cities and have a young single population, but more laid-back and with a lower COL than NYC. Some ideas are Denver, Seattle, San Diego, Madison… SF feels too big/expensive (ditto for Boston, DC, Chicago, and LA), and I like Portland but I’m not sure I’m hip enough ;) I love the outdoors and all of the concrete is one of the things I dislike most about NYC, so I’m leaning towards outdoorsy places. Former Partner, thinking about long-term savings goals is a factor too, and it’s one of the reasons that I think I wouldn’t make this move until early 2015 (to give myself one last bonus and more time to save/pay down loans).

      1. Take a second look at DC. It’s not big in comparison to NYC, and there are so many neighborhoods that are walkable, close to Metro, filled with young people who enjoy a less frenetic life. There are great jobs for lawyers in politics, with non-profits, and in the government. And the city is lovely. I leaned out of a DC lawfirm many years ago, and have really enjoyed a much more rewarding and relaxing career in-house.

        I lived in Madison for a half dozen years. It’s very pretty, but the weather is just beastly. And it starts to feel very small town, insular and smug after a year or two.

        1. So, I would actually swap DC Lawyer’s descriptions of Madison and DC, but to each their own. :)

          That being said, Madison has an incredibly high number of lawyers per capita, so, unless you have ties to the area, it might be tough to find a way in.

      2. What about Portland, Maine? It is a fabulous city, very vibrant, with a great food and music scene and (I think) employment.

        I disagree about moving to DC. It’s got all the downsides of NYC with little upside. IMO (I live here).

  12. Have any of you ever struggled long term with depression? I’m grasping for something to help but i can’t find relief. I tried an antidepressant which did not work and i’m still experiencing the side effects two months later (trembling in my hands, difficulty remembering things (spelling, my address, simple math, the right words). I’m not sure i can bare experimenting with another.

    2. Ditto. Also keep looking until you find a therapist with whom you feel comfortable talking and working to accept (or modify or whatever) your life.

      The Psychology Today web site lets you search for a therapist (PhD, MA, MS, MSW as well as MD). You can customize your search by many different variables (does therapist take insurance; what is therapist’s approach–cognitive, Freudian, eclectic etc.; in what areas does therapist specialize…). In most cases you’ll also see a head shot of each professional and get the link to his/her own professional web page.

      Therapists are not all alike (thankfully!) which means that somewhere out there is someone you can work with. Depression really really sucks up energy and time. You may always have to take good care of yourself but it’s easier to maintain good mental health after you’ve dug yourself out of your temporary hole. Hang in there.

    3. Find a therapist you’re comfortable with. That therapist may or may not be a doctor who can prescribe meds. Doesn’t matter. Go regularly.

      If you got meds from a GP in the past, go to a psychiatrist. Doctors that have more experience with prescribing depression meds can help you find meds that work for you much quicker and with less experimentation than other doctors. Not that they’ll get it right on the first try, but they’ll get a better dosage to start with and will be more experienced with adjusting dosages and switching meds to minimize side effects, which will help you.

      1. I was seeing a therapist and it helped quite a bit, especially with my anxiety and stress. I worked on a lot of the reasons that brought me to seek help but after a little over a year i have stopped. I have the tools i learned to manage stress and anxiety but my depression never improved and i had no other goals. So i finally decided to try an antidepressant through a psychiatrist and while my experience with this person and medication was not positive, it’s too much to attempt again.

        I was on a low dose of prozac and i felt literally out of my mind. I felt drunk, tireless, tired at the same time. I had to keep moving, i sweated so much at night that i was washing my sheets every two days and changing my pjs once a night and never got more than a couple hours of sleep. My ability to remember things went out the door (my address, spelling of simple words, what i had done two hours ago or a day ago). Driving was scary i felt so foggy that i genuinely didn’t think i should be driving, merging or being on a three lane roads were overwhelming. My body felt weak and i had a tremor in my hands, then the hopelessness kicked in right at the point where i had given the medication the six weeks required to know if it was truly going to work. I knew i had tried taken the step of medication which i said i would never do because i would still know in my heart, that medication could not erase the problems i will still face.

        I stopped with the guidance of this psychiatrist and three months later i still have many of the same side effects, the sleeping got better the first week thankfully. I hadn’t slept well in a month by that point. The body weakness improved but the rest still bother me daily.

    4. Try Buddhism. It might help you to see things a little differently. Please note that its not a religion but a way of living or a philosophy. Its not like you can’t practice Buddhism if you’re Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, etc. Get a simple, basic book on Buddhism and learn about the teachings. I think it will help you to see that nothing in this world is yours to keep. You came to this earth with nothing and you’ll leave with nothing so there’s no need to want things more than the basics. Many westerners look at a glass as half empty or half full. Buddhism just tells you to look at the glass with what it has and learn to be happy and satisfied with it. Look back at the root cause of your depression and try to realize that depression is only in your mind. When you first learn to forgive and let go, the first person to benefit from it, is you.

      1. Hm. I think that there are fundamental tenets of Buddhism that are not compatible with mainstream Christianity. I can’t speak for other religions, but while you can practice meditation, certainly, as a Christian, fundamentally, I think that Christianity comes at the concept of the origins of earthly suffering, and the remedies for such suffering from a different perspective than does Buddhism.

        I’d also add that depression is a mental illness, and while there are many ways to find relief, there’s nothing in the OP’s comment that indicates that “wanting things more than the basics” has anything, at all, to do with what she’s experiencing. Depression is not “only in your mind”, in anything more than the most clinical sense, and it’s somewhat offensive to suggest that it is.

      2. Hmm #2. I found the bits of Zen that I learned quite helpful in learning how to regulate, moderate, and/or diminish my previously outsize distress at the way some things are. (I learned via a course of DBT aka Dialectical Behavior Therapy rather than a specifically religious or spiritual study.) I didn’t find much conflict with my religion, Judaism. Your reaction may vary based on the combination of your own particular religion (if any) and personal preferences or interpretations.

        More important for this discussion, I don’t want the OP to think that it’s best to treat depression without medication. Based on my own experience I’d say that depression is a slippery beast that involves a person’s thoughts, attitudes, beliefs, and biochemistry and thus it’s best to try a variety of approaches: talking with a skilled & sympathetic therapist who can help one work through difficult past experiences and relearn some in-the-present or for-the-future coping behaviors; learning to apply these techniques (which may include meditation or adopting other Zen ways of looking at the world); and also at least considering rebalancing one’s personal biochemistry with medications–for a brief time or the indefinite future. There’s a lot of room between trying to cope without any meds and being sedated into submission. A good prescribing M.D. will know about meds and side effects, will respect his/her patient’s concerns, and will also encourage the patient to obtain healthy amounts of nutrition, exercise, and sleep while also minimizing other stressors.

        Okay, off my soapbox! Not trying to convince the OP as much as any casual bystanders (byreaders?) that it’s okay to treat depression in various ways.

      3. I am familiar with Buddhism, i was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school right up till college and the last thing we did was to look at all the other religions and spiritual beliefs. I recall it being the one i related to the most and recall many of it’s teachings. I used to consider myself Christian and but i am have now lost my personal faith. I’m not sure why i thought believing in God and praying faithfully, etc was going to cure my depression (or even how that would happen) but it caused me to be very angry with God. So i just let it go and stopped and it has brought me a bit more peace than i had before. It wouldn’t hurt to read about it again… If the glass full of water was representative of life and most see it as half full or half empty, i would say when i’m very down (most of the time) i’d would just give my glass away. I know i lack resilience :/

  13. Thanks to all who responded about writing a pf book. I’ve decided to take a stab at it, focusing on the lessons that I have learned along the way, and will keep you all posted on the progress.

    k-padi/sacha: As to paying off debt vs. investing/saving, http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Paying_down_loans_versus_investing is a good place to start, but as you will see, there are various opinions on what is the optimal choice — as with most things personal finance, it depends on the specifics of your exact situation.

    young atty: Ramit’s I Will Teach You To Be Rich book is geared towards young professionals and covers a lot of the things you asked about. It is also a very easy read, lays out what and how to do it in a concise fashion, and one of the very few books that inspired me to take action.

  15. Hi everyone,
    I recently graduated from law school and will be starting work after the bar exam at a large bank as a trust officer in the wealth management group. Does anyone here work in banking? Is a cardigan, blouse, and pencil skirt an appropriate outfit or will it be suits every day? I plan to talk to HR but was curious for comments on here too. Thanks!

    1. Congrats on your graduation and employment, and best wishes for the bar exam! Sorry no advice here but I’m sure others can help. You might also search this site’s archives and/or search Google for “C–ette” and “banking wardrobe” or “appropriate clothing” or some such…

    2. Lawgirl, it depends on the bank and the city, but for client-facing trust positions at large banks, suits or at least blazers with skirts or pants are pretty much de rigueur along with structured dresses. Not so much matching suits like you’d wear to an interview but definitely formal outfits. I’d see a skirt and cardigan as a “casual day” option more than a daily choice. Especially if you’re working with high-income or old-money type clients – you’ll want to wear a wardrobe on that level – Boss, Theory, Lafayette 148, Akris and St. John (or the youthful equivalent of St. John) come to mind. You can also wear statement jewelry, and use expensive purses and accessories. If you are not client-facing, then my take is more of a guess so asking HR would be important but I think it would be good to ask them either way.

  16. Told the people at work I am required to tell such things to that I am pregnant and the mat leave I wanted. Someone at work who is a supervisor to me but not my employer took it upon himself to ask my husband if I was pregnant (presumably he noticed the time off in the calendar). He hasn’t brought it up since then (though he did say congrats to my husband).

    I think this whole scenario is highly disrespectful and invasive.

    Thoughts?

    1. Well, it’s entirely possible that he figured out you were pregnant for other reasons. Do you and your husband work together, and does this person have a closer working relationship with your husband than with you?

      We’ve had three women in our group in the last year who’ve gotten pregnant, and I’ve figured it out prior to the announcement every time. It’s not always that hard to tell, even if you think you’re successfully hiding it. At this point, you don’t know anything more than that he asked that you were pregnant, not how he found out.

    2. Piggybacking off CB – is this guy close friends with your husband? Or did he look him up in the phone book just talk ask personal questions about you?

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