Weekend Open Thread

109 Comments

1. Does anyone have an easy way to get mineral sunscreens out of clothes?

   1. I use Dawn dishwashing detergent on any oily stains. Works like a charm if you just rub it into the spot and rinse thoroughly in the sink before laundering.

   2. I wear zinc oxide sunscreen daily so I get small marks on most of my clothes. I just run them through the wash with normal detergent and they come out looking as good as new.

      1. How do you avoid that white sheen from zinc oxide…

         1. A dab of tinted BB cream mixed in.

2. I’m coming up on my first year in my job as a 3rd year-ish associate. Looking for advice on how to crush my Review (and get that money honey!) Boston-metro small firm.

   Last year I accepted the job with slight displeasure because there was NO negotiation and I was told everyone gets hired at similar rates with a lockstep system. My first year salary was livable, but didn’t thrill me. Now I have a whole year of billing metrics to support how much I want. I both CRUSHED my hours and cultivated myself to multiple clients; like, they will call me to open new cases to ask ME to handle, and I know my partners love me and want me to succeed. I also KNOW they love how much I can bill out the door.

   My floor for a raise is 10% based on representations that everyone gets 5-10% every year. I’d like to go ballsy and ask for more. Is the 30% of billed hours out the door a safe calculation to use? How does a bonus (if any) fit into my preparation? at Christmas time I got $1500 as a nice gesture, not really tied to 6mo performance or anything… I am googling “associate business plans” to hopefully get more insight.

   ANY help or wise words from the hive would be appreciated! Nice girls don’t get the corner office!

   1. I don’t know, but I have a friend who recommended paying someone to help you game out your situation. She paid someone $80ish to help her prep for a similar conversation and told me it was one of the best $80 she ever spent.

      1. interesting! “game out your situation” = I love that turn of phrase :)

   2. Just know going in, depending on the size and culture of your law firm, you may have little to no room for negotiation on this. Lawyers negotiate for a living. They are way less likely to want to negotiate with associates (or even their partners) related to compensation for that reason IMO.

   3. My experience is in big- to medium-size law, so if others have small-law experience, that will override. That said, I have never seen any room for negotiation on salary. It’s all about the bonus. If you are doing well, they will give you a good bonus. They will then raise your salary the same amount as every other person your class year. This will encourage you to do well again next year to get the same bonus. The carrot is that if you kill it for enough years, you will make partner. If you are an average or under-average associate, you get weeded out.

      1. I don’t have any experience in midlaw, but in biglaw you’re taking home about one-third of the revenue you’re generating, so they’re not going to let you negotiate that higher. The bonus is to approximately compensate you for extra revenue generation from working more hours than your billable hour target and/or bringing in business.

   4. I’ve said this on a past thread, but your salary should be roughly one-third of the revenue you’re bringing into your firm (billable hours x your billing rate). The rule of thumb is that the other two-thirds are roughly split between overhead and partner profits.

      If your billable hours requirement is 1500 and you’re hitting 2000 hours, then your salary should be based on 1500 and you can ask for a bonus of one-third of any billables over the 1500 requirement. If they’re paying you significantly less than one-third of the revenue you’re generating, you’re being underpaid. Someone who’s hustling as much as you are and bringing in business should absolutely negotiate and be willing to leave if they refuse to give you reasonable compensation. You’re at a small firm — they can absolutely negotiate to keep a top performer. If they won’t, that’s a good signal that this is not going to be a good fit for you and you should be looking elsewhere.

      Separately, raises for law firm lawyers aren’t like raises for normal corporate employees. Your comp should be tied to the revenue you’re generating. If your billables go up, your comp should go up. If your billing rate goes up, your comp should go up. Start thinking of your comp not as a salary but rather in terms of how much money you are making for them and how much of that you are taking home.

      In terms of next steps, I’d start looking for other jobs while also preparing to negotiate. That will give you a better sense of perspective and make it easier to negotiate without feeling like your back is against the wall. I also agree that hiring someone to coach you through how to prepare/negotiate is likely to be really really helpful.

   5. I have a recommendation to someone who does this work out of Chicago — I’m happy to provide a referral if you’d like. I only worked w him by phone. You can email me at this screenname + e t t e …at google’s mail.

      1. “this work” = what nuqotw was talking about — my reply didn’t get threaded where i wanted it to.

   6. Upgrade to a big law firm if you want $$.

3. I am breaking a lease on my apartment. The management told me that they will advertise the apartment and let me out of the lease as soon as they have a new renter. So far, the realtor has posted one very brief text-only ad on craigslist. I have not found any other ads. They have not asked me to come in and take pictures, I would happily allow that. We also agreed that I would allow any showings with any or no notice. I notified them that I was leaving in late June, so far there have been no showings, and other than that one ad, I have seen nothing else. I’ve already emailed management twice to ask why there have been no advertisements, and the second time they responded that they let their brokers know. I found the ad by searching the broker.

   I am growing concerned that I will be stuck paying months and months of rent on this apartment while they let it sit vacant after I am out. What can I do?

   1. Post your own ad with pictures.

      1. I’ve been wondering if I should do this and if so, how – do I tell people to call the broker? Or what?

         1. Assuming that you can’t afford to keep paying the rent and that the lease doesn’t just have a clause providing for a 2-month rent penalty (which I always thought was the standard), I would just find your one tenant. I would advertise and show the place. Once I found someone, I would go to management and tell them I had someone to take over my lease and ask how they wanted it done. Management has no incentive to look for someone if you are still on the hook for rent

         2. I would post my own contact info and then make the introduction to the broker so that you know of the interest and the broker knows you know, too.

            1. +1 You may do even more of the legwork yourself, depending on the norm in your area. What city/state are you in?

   2. Does your apartment building/complex have a website? Is it listed there? Are there ads for your building/complex elsewhere online? It’s been a couple years since I looked for an apartment, but at least in D.C., you relied on what the corporate website said as far as availability. Sure, they might post some online, but mainly people knew about the building/complex and went straight to the source to see what’s available in the building/complex.

      FWIW, the last time I had to do this (about 3 years ago), my high-rise apartment was vacant when I moved out, but they found a renter about 10 days later.

      1. It’s a smaller, older building and there is very little movement so it doesn’t have its own website. I think I was the last person to move in and am the first to be moving out.

   3. My lease reads the same way, and my assumption was that I’d be on the hook for the entire lease unless I got it subleased myself. They have absolutely no incentive to do more than the bare minimum (which it sounds like they have done). Find out what it takes to get a new person on the lease and then find a new tenant yourself that meets their qualifications (and/or will pass their background check, credit requirements, etc.).

   4. I’d check the state property law that applies. Some jurisdictions are more tenant-friendly and require the landlord to make a good faith effort. If you’re in a tenant-friendly jurisdiction and the landlord is not even close to making an effort, then I’d just tell them to keep the security deposit as the last month’s rent and then leave. I would send them an email referencing the legal provision, lay out the timeline of what happened, and conclude that you know longer owe them rent because they did not make a good faith effort to re-lease the apartment. Realistically, they’re not likely to take you to landlord/tenant or small claims court. If you’re in a tenant-friendly jurisdiction, it could be a hard case for them to win. Of course this is not legal advice, but it’s what I’d do assuming I thought the applicable property law was favorable. At the end of the day, it’s about what are they going to go to the effort to sue you for.

   5. In NYC when I was on the hook, I had to advertise myself and even paid to do so. Took non-professional photos
      I wanted out would have been on the hook for more than 6 mos and the landlord had no incentive to help. And as I understood the law then, it would have been all on me to deal with. I ended up finding a subletter for a majority of the team and got out of the last month

   6. Yeah–you may not understand what a lease means, but unless there’s a termination clause that fully lets you out, you probably are on the hook, so management has ZERO incentive to care who lives there because you have to pay either way. Take this into your own hands. Find a tenant with decent credit (put that in the ad–that’s a reason LL can plausibly say no). Godspeed.

   7. I usually see these sublease situations through alumni groups and FB postings more than ads – work your network. No brokers fee! When does your lease end? Might be great for a summer intern situation

4. What are your favorite brands for underwear that is no show and bikini style and won’t wear out in a year or two? I have finally come to terms that my gilligan o’malley stuff from target is no longer acceptable and I despite Victoria’s secret anymore. I’d like to not spend an arm an a leg either though… TIA!

   1. Soma Invisible Edge (I think that’s the name). Get it when they have a 5 for $whatever special or check the sale area for last season’s colors.

      1. I see people recommend those all the time (it’s Vanishing Edge though), but I’ve looked at them and they don’t seem to be made of natural fibers. Is that not a dealbreaker for anyone else?

         1. I don’t know their fiber content, but they do have cotton ones and stretchy synthetic ones. I’m not sure if the cotton ones are 100% cotton, they might have some stretch in them. All of them have a cotton panel between the legs.

         2. I’ts not a problem for me. Granted, I’ve never had an infection in that region. It has a cotton cr0tch. But I typically wear p@ntyliners daily, so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      2. +1

         They run small. I’m a 6-8 pear and wear an L.

         1. I’m a 16 and wear XL.

   2. Uniqlo Airism Ultra Seamless. ~$8/pair. No back seam, so TBH they don’t fit *quite* as well as some other brands, but it’s cheap enough that I’ll overlook that.

   3. Natori bliss cotton girl brief. They’re pricey but they’re seamless under virtually everything except, for some reason, my Aritzia Wilfred and Babaton pants.

      1. +1

   4. Embraceable Super Soft from Soma. Love them. I can’t wear the Vanishing Edge because the silicone edges give me welts.

   5. Jockey no PL promise. Jockey stores, Kohl’s, and I think Target all carry.

   6. Aerie

   7. Thank you for this question! I have (ancient) G&O’M’s that are exact matches to Soma’s VE ones, down to the wide multi-band grip strip. I have both brands. I thought I saw (at some point) Soma has the patent and maybe that’s why the G&O’M’s went away. I desperately want the G&O’M’s back. They were only $5 each. So, tacking onto this question, where are the best Soma VE knock-offs to be found?

   8. Size up in a good thong like hanky Panky if you want no show… otherwise I like jockey elance.

   9. Hands down, SOMA! The vanishing edge bikini with the lace is pretty, no show, and the silicone grips last really well despite machine washing and drying.

5. I posted here earlier this week about realizing that my BF’s summer fling (from a time when we were on a break) was someone he will be spending considerable time with this summer. I wanted to thank everyone for their responses and insights. Re-reading it a few days later made me cringe and you were more patient with me than I deserved.

   Someone suggested that the real issue is that I am afraid he is more into her than he is into me, which 100% hit the nail on the head. It also made me realize that a big part of my problem is that I am upset that he chose to spend his entire summer away from me – which is not particularly fair of me since I did not talk to him about it.

   At any rate, you gave me food for thought and I wanted to thank you.

   1. You’re welcome! Thanks for the update and checking in, and glad to see the comments were helpful. Best of luck resolving the situation as is best for all involved :)

   2. Glad to hear we could help – you always deserve patience!

   3. Hugs to you. Sending good vibes.

6. Reposted from the News Update thread…
   TL;DR: how do I advise an associate whose childcare responsibilities are negatively affecting her work performance?

   Need some advice on a complicated management issue. I am a partner in a transactional practice. One of my senior associates has a two-year-old. Her husband has a completely inflexible job (ER attending physician), and as a result she is fully the primary parent . If her child is sick and has to go home from daycare, she leaves and is at home for the remainder of the day taking care of the child or taking her to the doctor. She tries to work while she’s home with her baby, but that is understandably very hard and practically, she’s not available. Obviously, her kid is young and in daycare, so she’s sick a lot. Sometimes there’s no issue for a few months, but in a typical month she has to leave unexpectedly at least twice, and in the last 3-4 months there have been two occasions where she was out for over a week. (I don’t know if this is a normal level of sickness for a baby – I assume it is because she’s not indicated that there is any more significant issue.)

   The problem is that at this point, it’s starting to become a career issue: she is of a seniority level where she should be solely managing projects, but because she has unexpected absences so often, partners are reluctant to give her sole responsibility for a project or to give her a client-facing role. She’s behind on assignments and people are ending up covering for her a lot, which is leading to some frustration.

   I don’t know what to do here. We have excellent family benefits – we offer 16 weeks of paid maternity leave and she took an additional 4 unpaid (we also offer – and our male associates do use – 6 weeks of paternity leave); we also offer subsidized daycare and the daycare also has emergency in-home care for a certain number of days a year, which I assume she’s used. We are very supportive of families and all of our other associates except the first-years have kids, including young kids, and she’s not going to lose her job over this, but the unpredictable unavailability is directly impacting the opportunities that she’s offered and how she’s perceived. She has less than 2 years before she must enter the partnership process or she’ll have to move into a non-partner-track role (she’s halfway through year 8 and you have to enter the process by year 10).

   I really like her and I don’t want to tell her how to manage her personal life – and I don’t have kids so I don’t even have experience or advice to offer – but I am her primary supervisor and I need to find a way to communicate with her about this, particularly because she’s at an important career point and negative opinions are accumulating. (I should note that she lateraled to us less than a year before she had her child, so she didn’t have an extensive pre-kids track record with the group.) I guess I’m looking for advice or experiences from women who’ve been in her position who might be able to tell me what would have been helpful to hear. One of my colleagues sort of lost it the other day after he had to step in to smooth things over with a client after she was unprepared for a meeting and said, “the fact that her husband is completely unable to help out shouldn’t be my problem,” and that has further caused me to feel like I need to find a way to talk with her about this

   1. No advice but the moms site may also have insight.

   2. I don’t have any real advice, but I’ll chime in an opinion: her level of commitment to the job she has is insufficient to keep the job. If she wants this job (and, presumably doesn’t want her husband quit his) she needs to get more help at home. In case it needs to be said, the same goes for her husband! Unless *they* get more household help, they can’t both keep the jobs they have. I don’t think it’s your job to tell her how to get that help but typical options for two parents with jobs like theirs are: two nannies, day care plus back up care and then a nanny/sitters, day care plus family help. Day care alone is not sufficient in their family (clearly).

      1. I agree. I chose a “lean out” job precisely because I wanted to be home every time my kid is sick. Big Law is not that job, and neither is ER doctor. She and her husband need more help or new jobs.

      2. +1. When I announced my pregnancy at my Biglaw firm, my supervising partner straight-up told me that I would need to look into getting two nannies (since my husband is also a lawyer). Everyone with kids in my office either has a SAH spouse or a complicated childcare set up so that they can be available at work as needed.

      3. This is what I was thinking too. I know biglaw is desperate to keep working moms, but she simply isn’t pulling her weight. This is an employee thing, not an employer thing.

         1. Big law is in no way desperate to keep working moms. It’s desperate to not look like they are being pushed out

      4. I agree with this. We have a mid-level associate with 1.5 year old twins who also has a husband with an inflexible job (though she is the primary earner and probably always will be). Twins were sick about the same that you are describing. This associate had the same issue where she would try to “work from home” but was not really able to for child care reasons. She also is fortunate enough to have her mom live locally to provide some back up care, though obviously her mom is not available all the time. I’ve never seen this woman be unprepared to a meeting or miss a deadline on an assignment because of this, however. If she has to stay home with the kids during the afternoon, she will work when her husband gets home if something has to get done. She has also handed off assignments to other people if she knows she won’t be able to get something done. So, basically she gets things done and everyone has a high opinion of her despite the fact that she is solely coordinating childcare for twin toddlers.

         1. Your mid level associate is super human! I have one year twins, DH in a demanding job, I work in a very lean out job, though no local family and i always feel like I’m drowning. Do what you can to retain her!

            1. I mean I do think it would be fair to say that she has been getting less work than most people until recently (kids aren’t sick all the time anymore), and everyone was fine with that because they all knew that phase wouldn’t last forever. But I think the big difference here is that she has been managing expectations and not committing to meetings/deadlines that she can’t make, unlike OP’s associate.

      5. +1, having only one source of non-parent childcare does NOT work for parents that are both in demanding positions.

      6. Don’t have kids yet, but daycare isn’t enough.

         You can’t tell her to hire a nanny, but you can tell her that other associates manage by hiring nannies, back-up care, etc., and they do that because it is necessary for their jobs.

   3. I’m so curious to hear the responses (though you may have to post on Monday morning).

      You haven’t mentioned an au pair / nanny. It’s odd to me that at this household’s professional station (two parents working in intense, well-paying professions) they don’t have one. A full-time caregiver is an imperative when both parents have careers like this.

   4. I think the issue isn’t that she has childcare responsibilities. The issue is she’s routinely missing work with very little notice, and that’s impacting her ability to do her job. I think you should speak to her with that in mind. Something like “I really value the contributions you make in X and Y. But I do need to let you know that your frequent, sudden absences are starting to impact the opportunities you’re offered. I want you to succeed in this role, and I want you to succeed well beyond it, because I believe you have that kind of potential. So I want to encourage you to explore any options available to you that will enable you to be here more dependably. I also want to make clear that we understand that your priorities may lead you to keep things exactly as they are. If that’s the case, that’s fine. I certainly respect that. Your work is excellent, and your job isn’t in jeopardy over this. We have PTO for reasons exactly like this.”

      1. But I’m not sure the last part of your suggestion (which is otherwise good) will work here.
         “I also want to make clear that we understand that your priorities may lead you to keep things exactly as they are. If that’s the case, that’s fine. I certainly respect that. Your work is excellent, and your job isn’t in jeopardy over this. We have PTO for reasons exactly like this.”

         Isn’t it more “if that’s the case, you will need to look into a 60% schedule” or “you will need to assume you will move to the non-partner track?” Maybe her overall employment isn’t in jeopardy, but you bet I wouldn’t be trying to get her staffed on my deal knowing she has a track record of half-disappearing for a week?!?

         1. Yeah, the last bit is kind of hard because the truth is that her work isn’t great right now because she’s so behind. She won’t get fired over the unavailability, but it’s the kind of thing that just gradually will mean she doesn’t get the opportunities and responsibilities that she needs to make partner. She may be fine on hours but she’ll get them via more junior, less-important roles. And that means that when she hits the up or out ceiling, she’ll have to leave. So in a couple of years, it’ll be a problem.

      2. Thanks. I was worried that it was disingenous not to mention *why* she’s out, but I guess it can be both disingenuous but also the right thing to do.

         I wish someone who actually is a parent would have this conversation, but in addition to being her supervisor I’m the only partner who is willing to have actual manager-type conversations with associates…everyone else defaults to typical passive-aggressive biglaw style (say nothing, get annoyed, give a bad review at the end of the year).

         1. Yes, i agree it is not ideal that you are telling her this if you are not a parent. I would not explicitly frame it as a childcare issue. It is great that your firm let her take off so much time even though she hadn’t been there for that long, but her maternity leave is kind of irrelevant to this. Taking those extra four months unpaid might have been bc she wasn’t ready to come back and could afford the extra time unpaid, but it also could be that she was struggling with severe ppd or ppa and it might have been a huge financial stress. Not saying that this excuses her from not doing what is required of a big law associate, but what happened before she was back isn’t that relevant. Also think more about whether the issue is that she isn’t physically present or isn’t getting her work done.

   5. Has the child been in daycare since it was a baby? If so, the frequency of illness is probably about to go way down. My kid’s pediatrician said a baby in daycare will typically get sick every 10-14 days during the infant year, and half as often each year thereafter. By the time my kid hit 2.5 to 3 years old she was basically NEVER sick but the first couple of years were a nightmare.

      There’s not really anything to tell her that she doesn’t know. My husband had a similarly inflexible schedule and it was 100% on me to deal with almost all sicknesses for the first several years of my daughter’s life. My daughter got sick enough that I had to leave work to pick her up the fourth day I was back from maternity leave and also the second day after I started a new job. It’s basically the worst feeling possible and I felt like a complete failure and knew that people were judging me harshly because of it.

      If you need to tell her that women with childcare responsibilities don’t make partner at your firm, please go ahead and do that so she can start looking for a job elsewhere.

      1. People (men and women both) with childcare responsibilities do – for example, most of our attorneys with young children (including partners and regardless of gender) are responsible for daycare pickup (because it’s firm-provided and next door to the office) and thus have strict departure times every day. We navigate that without issues. But we’ve never had an associate who didn’t have backup care/help from the other parent or family members. It’s just not a scenario that exists with any of our other associates or partners…

   6. Apologies; reposting because I put it too far below.

      Being myself the 100% primary parent (dare I say “sole parent”? I do!) to two young children while my husband works a demanding job. There was a point in my job where it became clear that I had to switch from daycare to nanny in order to remain committed enough at work. My bosses kept telling me gently that it would be so much easier with a nanny. I did, it they said “We’re glad you listened.” And my career blossomed and advanced from there. I don’t think I would have made it where I have (partner) if I hadn’t realized it was time to take that step.

      Now, I heard the message from my colleagues implicitly. She may need to be told more explicitly. That’s not ideal, but I don’t see a downside to helping her work through this: “You need better back-up childcare options to be sure you aren’t losing out on opportunities that are necessary for you to advance to the next level. Want to talk about options? You should talk to [insert name of other young mother] about how her search for a nanny went. She’ll have great advice.” Rinse, repeat.

      1. You aren’t a sole parent just because your husband is busy. Just don’t.

   7. If I were in her shoes (and I am a senior associate with a surgeon husband), I would want someone to explain that my unavailability was impacting my work and explain how one or two specific instances negatively impacted the partner/client/other associates. I would then want someone to explain what the firm norms are on taking time off and availability (not formal policies, but the informal practices – like when people do/don’t take vacation, what the availability expectations of each partner are, etc. – it sounds like she is within the bounds of your policies but is newer to the firm and not adhering to certain customs). I would also want advice on how to fix my reputation – concrete steps I should be taking (like who I should talk to directly about my efforts to improve, etc.).

      I would not bring her family life into it unless she brings it up. If she brings it up, you should think of someone good for her to talk to – do you have any partners who advise associates on these issues? We have two partners (a man and a woman) who do informal advising on “work life balance” and they keep the conversations entirely confidential so you can speak candidly. I spoke with one of them and it was beyond helpful to have a real conversation about all of these things. She gave me excellent advice tailored to my situation.

      I have a feeling that this will devolve into…a debate about the merits of how firms expect people to work. But I’m at a big firm in a transaction practice and you just can’t be unavailable in the way she has been and do the job well. There are pros and cons of the job – there is a lot of flexibility in someways, but not a lot of flexibility in others.

      For what it is worth, I know a fair number of associates (both men and women) with doctor spouses and none of them are managing on one nanny/day care alone. They all have a nanny or day care, and then supplemental backup care – either a second “on call” nanny or baby sitter or family help to fill in the gaps.

   8. I would encourage you to discuss it with her as a performance issue rather than a perception issue or a family issue. Find specific instances (for example being unprepared for a meeting; any deadlines she has missed; any times other people have had to do her work for her because she could not; and obviously whether she is meeting expectations for hours) and explain that those things are issues if she wants to be considered for partnership. (While also making it clear that she is not presently in danger of losing her job assuming you do not want her to start looking.) Leave her husband and child out of it except for a brief mention that everyone understands that she has personal commitments. This is both because you do not want to be accused of discrimination and because it is a performance issue not a family status issue. The most you should do is say that if there is some family reason she is having difficulties, she should discuss that with HR (in case this is an FMLA issue).

      It may be that she knows this already and has decided that she is not interested in partnership; it may be that she is unaware of the problem and can figure out how to get outside help so that she and her husband can both continue to pursue their career ambitions; it may be that she is biding her time while waiting for have kid #2 and then planning on quitting; it may be there she is actually dealing with something else entirely. There are a lot of possibilities, but it would be a kindness to let her know of the issue and its impact on her possible career goals.

      1. Agree with this 100%. Please just talk to her about her performance and not her kids.

         My daughter was 4 months old when I started as a litigation associate at my BigLaw firm. It was HARD, and there were definitely a few times when my performance dipped. I now have a second child under two, and the constant struggle to be an ideal employee and a mom is still really hard on my own self-esteem. It would have been completely demoralizing if someone had linked my childcare situation to my performance issues at work, essentially saying out loud what I am constantly afraid of – that I can’t make it all work and am failing as a working mom or that my colleagues see my kids as a professional liability. Instead, I had wonderful mentors and supervisors who treated me exactly like my peers and coached me to improve without attributing any issues to my kids. That approach really empowered me to focus on concrete issues and steps to take rather than fall down a spiral of working mom guilt. I’ve also had friends who were given various versions of the “talk” about leveling up their childcare situations by well-meaning colleagues, and they all eventually left their firms with the idea firmly planted in their minds that they weren’t supported by their bosses. I think having someone tell them that the way to solve their work-life balance problems was to outsource even more of their childcare in order to prioritize work when they were “in the trenches” of parenting really young kids just wasn’t well-received (even though I really do think this is the solution a lot/most of the time).

   9. I agree that you need to give feedback and understand that you can’t change the system on your own. However, in line with the recent NYT article on greedy professions, I want to share my experience.

      I quit biglaw before my absences got to this point, in part because I wanted to be able to take care of my kid when ill without being crazy stressed and having to work all night to make up assignments. I think that law loses a lot of talent because of its inability to tolerate lawyers having more demands at home for what ends up being a short season in a long career.

      As an aside, the backup care my firm provided was worthless—the process for requesting care was onerous, and the backup care provider could never find a qualified nanny on short notice (and it’s not like you know a week in advance your kid is going to be sick). Also, from colleagues who were able to secure care, the quality was not consistently acceptable. I relied on an independent high quality and expensive agency, but even they wouldn’t have worked when a kid was really ill.

      1. Also, with lots of lawyers who leave to make daycare pickup, your firm sounds like it’s doing a lot bettering than mine did. I found it really hard to have to leave at a set time a few days a week.

   10. I think that you should tell her exactly what you said here, including what the partner said and “She’s behind on assignments and people are ending up covering for her a lot, which is leading to some frustration.” Don’t tell her that her job is not in jeopardy now, but do tell her that what she is doing is not sustainable.

       I agree with others that lawyer+doctor= nanny, au pair or nearby relatives. There needs to be a back-up plan other than one parent staying home and basically abandoning their co-workers without planning or notice. A nanny is good because they can take care of a mildly sick child who can’t go to day care but is not in need of medical care. An au pair combined with a day care would be an alternative.

       The mother may still need to take time off to take the child to the doctor but it would be less time and she can return to work or work at home with someone else caring for the child. I had a SAHD as backup so I missed work only if there was a crisis, for example the eight consecutive days my son was in the hospital. A nanny or au pair would serve the same function as a SAHD/SAHM but wouldn’t totally eliminate absences.

       Also, ER doctors have unpredictable shifts but they do get days and days off. (My brother is one and my daughter is an ER RN so I know a bit about their lives. My brother takes care of his kids 100% on his days off to give his wife a break – and his kids are autistic so they require a lot.) If she’s been out for over a week in a row, that means her ER hubby is not doing anything to help on his days off, unless the illness just happened to coincide with a 7-day string of shifts. ER docs do sometimes work 7on/7off shifts so it is possible but he should be off at times. My point is that he is not her backup care when he is off work, which isn’t necessarily her employer’s business but something for you to consider when you talk to her.

       Approach it with the suggestion that you would like her to have back up care and for her to brainstorm with her husband ways to create back up. You can help brainstorm if she asks. The goal would be predictable availability and fewer absences.

   11. I responded to the other thread, but I have a different take – the TL/DR, support her

       I would try to support her more, and try to push for less of a facetime culture at your firm. With the technology today, there’s no reason why she can’t both be home on an emergency basis and also responsive to clients. If you’re not looking to make your culture more flexible, you will lose talent like her. As a client, I’d rather have you support women for real in your firm (it goes far beyond having decent maternity leave). I’d also look to create a culture of helping each other out – today, she might need help because of child care, but tomorrow someone else might need help because of life. When we don’t do everything in our power to support other women at work, we force moms like her to make a choice – stay in the game or quit/ lean way out because it’s just too hard. You might think, so what, I’ve still got my job, but we all lose our networks every time this happens. One by one, our potential contacts drop and get less powerful. So do everything you can to help her. Back her up, staff cases better, encourage flexibility for everyone so it’s not a stigma.

       1. I like this in theory, but day to day, this is not a “facetime” issue. Being at home with a two year old isn’t working from home, it’s “squeezing in work when you can,” and that sounds more like the problem than where she is physically doing her work.

       2. OP has pretty specifically said that face time isn’t the issue. Her associate isn’t able to do work at home and shows up unprepared to meetings, misses deadlines, etc.

       3. Yeah I’m all for flex workplaces, but this is not a face time issue. She’s not getting her work done.

       4. I really hate when people trot out the “support women/moms” every time an issue involving a woman or mom arises. “Supporting” (by which you appear to mean coddling) this particular associate is not necessarily supporting working moms in general. She still won’t be doing her work, people will still be resentful, and the next time a working mom comes along and needs to run out of the office to fetch sick kids – but is actually going to deliver them to backup child care to get her work done – people will hold it against her because they’ll lump her in with this associate as “another mom leaving the office.” A culture that’s flexible about face time is good, but this is definitely not a face time issue, and letting everyone in the office hate the working mom who doesn’t have adequate childcare is NOT a solution that will help working moms generally. I am a mom and Big Law associate, fwiw.

          1. You all are really missing my main point which is that having the unsupportive attitude pushes women out of your workplace and ultimately destroys your own network. I have lost way too many female lawyer colleagues and friends to the motherhood – they step off, lean out and stop being powerful connections. You know who is powerful? The men who stuck around. So yes, I will scream from the rafters, support women, support women, support women. It’s good for your career too. One day when you’re looking around and wondering where your network is, you’ll wish you had.

             1. Supporting a person who is not doing their job and representing herself and her employer badly does not help me or any other women. When people look the other way because they don’t want to push a mother out, it just reenforces the perception that a woman can’t be both a mom and good attorney. This makes it more likely that other women will leave because they don’t get the good assignments and opportunities (because the older male partner has it in his mind based on the first women that no women can continue to perform after having children.).

                This is horribly misguided advice. Would you really be ok with a law firm that your company is paying $$$ being unprepared because the attorney has a 1 year old? I really highly doubt that you or any client would be

             2. Yeah, I’m not the Anon who replied to you above but I also find it really offensive to suggest that supporting an underperfoming woman is helping all women. I’m a working mom who has lots of childcare in place and works really hard to make sure I can meet or exceed expectations, and I believe that the partner turning the other cheek towards this associate would hurt, not help, me. OP’s firm isn’t penalizing an associate for taking maternity leave or needing to leave every day at a certain time but logging back in at home. The OP’s associate is blowing deadlines and is unprepared for client meetings. Letting a working mom do a half-a$$ed job will hurt all working moms, because it reinforces existing stereotypes that once a woman has children she can’t perform at the same level. That’s far more damaging to me than not having this one woman in my network. My network consists of lots of different attorneys – men, women without children, women with children – and a general perception that working moms are lazy and can’t do the work will hurt me infinitely more than having this one individual remain in my network will help me. Lots of people are telling you this and I don’t know why you’re being willfully obtuse, but your advice is terrible and I hope OP ignores it.

             3. Presumably she wasn’t underperforming before she had kids, and I think to call it that now isn’t fair. She’s struggling but it’s a season of life. That doesn’t mean she’s a bad lawyer. Just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t make me obtuse. I think you are missing a much bigger point and are part of the problem for women at work, and why women get pushed out. Rethinking how things could be done would do a world of good for everyone. What on earth is so wrong with offering to back her up, help her with her caseload so she doesn’t miss a deadline, or doing anything else you would hopefully do for any colleague who was struggling.

             4. PS – I never said ignore it, I said help. That’s a totally different thing.

             5. Because it’s reinforcing the very damaging idea that women with young children can’t perform at the same level as women without kids or men. Many of us can and do and acting otherwise hurts us and keeps us from partnership and other leadership opportunities we deserve. This isn’t someone who is struggling for a month or two because her father died or her child is in the hospital, or other temporary or unusual circumstances. “Having young children” is not what most people consider a short term situation, and the push for partnership is an incredibly critical stage in her career. She chose to have kids during this critical time and if she wants to be successful, she needs more childcare. It’s really not that horrible to tell her that, and she should be able to easily afford it with a Big Law salary. “Support women” doesn’t happen in a vacuum – excusing her behavior comes at the expense of every other working mom associate in her firm who will be mommy-tracked as a result of her behavior, and I don’t get why you either don’t see that or don’t care.

             6. Not at all. Your first reaction is to yell at her about it. Mine is to help her. Holding out a hand to help a colleague isn’t damaging. If you read the original post, the OP says this is not some systemic issue, it’s a few recent things. Instead of jumping all over the associate, I’m simply saying reach out and see how you can help her. And as a partner, use your influence to actually make your workplace better. It is really sad that’s tough for you to try this approach and that it’s at all controversial. I’ve also never disagreed with the idea of getting better childcare, but even the best childcare can fail. So help, support, be the kind of colleague you’d want to work with.

             7. Literally nobody on this thread has said to “yell” at her about it, so calm down. People are just saying that having a tough conversation with her where you tell her more childcare is necessary to stay in this job is better in the long run than continuing to make excuses and cover for her when she’s unable to do her work. If she decides that getting additional childcare isn’t something she wants, then helping her transition to a more flexible position – whether in-house or a non-partnership track in the firm – may also be a solution. Nobody is saying that the firm should fire this associate tomorrow with no transition plan. All that I and others are saying is that it’s fair to make it clear to her that her current situation is unsustainable if she wants to make partner.
                I’m a relatively junior associate, not a partner, but I don’t think one law firm partner is in the position to change the entire culture of Big Law. I generally agree that it would be great for women (and plenty of men) if Big Law didn’t demand long hours and almost 24/7 availability, but this is a deeply engrained culture that OP is not in a position to singlehandedly change. As a client, you’re probably in a much better position to change it. At least, the partners tell us it is the way it is because the clients like you demand it.
                I can tell you that personally I’ve had many partners and clients assume I needed a lighter workload after becoming a mom or that I was stepping off the partnership track, and I – and all the other working mom associates I know – had to fight an uphill battle to prove otherwise. It’s fine if you want to bury your hand in the sand and ignore it, but enabling associates like the one in OP’s question to continue on the partnership track while not having enough childcare to perform their jobs really hurts the working moms who are committed to their jobs and want to make partner.

       5. I’m the OP- for what it’s worth, when I said “unavailability,” I do mean unavailability as opposed to not being in the office. We have possibly the least facetime-focused culture I’ve ever seen (this is my third biglaw firm) – all of our partners and associates work from home multiple days per week. The only time physical presence matters for us is when we have an in-person meeting or negotiation with opposing parties, a pitch, etc.

   12. If both parents want to keep working in those types of jobs, I don’t see how it can be done with anything less than a full-time nanny. Depending on their situation, that has the potential to help not only with the “who stays home with the sick kid” question, but with eliminating the need to do daycare drop-offs, fight traffic to get to pick-up on time, etc.

   13. I am a mom of young kids. I was basically told by my law firm that I needed to be more available, which I knew would mean getting a nanny. Within six months of them giving me that message, I found another job. Prior to that message, I had thought they were fine with my flexible work arrangement, but they brought to my attention that they were not fine with it. Your subordinate may be in the same position, unaware that there’s a problem.

       With respect to my firm, they weren’t in the wrong, and I wasn’t in the wrong — it was just a case of mismatched desires/expectations. If your desire and expectation is that this person be more available, tell her. She can then decide whether she can find a way to meet that expectation, or not. And likewise you can decide if, after a reasonable amount of time, she’s adjusted appropriately and is performing up to expectations, or not, and needs to be let go.

       1. I think that this is the right approach. Telling her how you think she should make herself available is not appropriate, but if a job expectation is something like “available at least 90% of the time” (or some such, I can’t really figure out the phrasing on a Friday afternoon) then you tell her that she’s not meeting that expectation, and she can figure out how to meet it.

   14. The American lense of what constitutes a family friendly employer is baffling, this whole “16 weeks maternity leave” thing is laughable to the rest of the first world. I’m child free by choice and even I can see your employer isn’t actually family friendly. You need to be honest with her and tell her that you expect her to prioritize the job, full stop, no fluff, the job is number one.

       1. Everyone knows kids can take care of themselves at 4 months!
          Lol, I laughed at that too.

       2. Well stated! That employer puts on the family-friendly veneer….time to come clean and tell the employee they’re not really family-friendly and job comes first…be honest!!!

       3. …16 weeks paid leave plus another 4 unpaid plus subsidized daycare (if I’m understanding the OP’s description correctly) is exceptional in the United States. Telling the OP that the rest of the world gets more maternity leave is literally irrelevant to this particular situation.

          1. I know, 16 weeks would be amazing. I’ve had 4 different jobs, and they offered between 0 and 6 weeks paid. Paternity leave was not a thing. I agree, not relevant to this issue, and sad that it’s that way in America. But so it is.

   15. She’s being paid to do a job. That means she needs to spend a part of that paycheck to hire childcare so that she can do that job.

       I would not mention the child care issue or the family friendly policies to her… that can get tricky and can come back to bite you as not being “family friendly” enough. Instead, I would focus the conversation around her performance with specific action plans for improvement, because that’s what this is really about. She is not meeting job expectations.

   16. Can I just say: thanks for being a decent human being for caring about her as a human? Thanks for not doing the typical passive-aggressive, stew-silently-and-then-give-a-bad-review thing to her. It takes a good boss to have the hard conversations, and I admire that you want to do this right.

7. Being myself the 100% primary parent (dare I say “sole parent”? I do!) to two young children while my husband works a demanding job. There was a point in my job where it became clear that I had to switch from daycare to nanny in order to remain committed enough at work. My bosses kept telling me gently that it would be so much easier with a nanny. I did, it they said “We’re glad you listened.” And my career blossomed and advanced from there. I don’t think I would have made it where I have (partner) if I hadn’t realized it was time to take that step.

   Now, I heard the message from my colleagues implicitly. She may need to be told more explicitly. That’s not ideal, but I don’t see a downside to helping her work through this: “You need better back-up childcare options to be sure you aren’t losing out on opportunities that are necessary for you to advance to the next level. Want to talk about options? You should talk to [insert name of other young mother] about how her search for a nanny went. She’ll have great advice.” Rinse, repeat.

8. I love scarves to add some easy interest to my otherwise very boring jeans and a sweater personal style. I also like to wear them when traveling to Europe because nothing gives me more satisfaction than having Europeans mistake me for one of them :)

   1. I was in Spain last spring and was mistaken for a local several times (both by Spaniards and others). I was so confused (red hair + very fair skin) until I realized it was the scarf!

9. I think I’m gearing up for battle over this project. I really don’t want to be petty or defensive, but you can only sit in so many meetings where people either have no idea what’s going on and/or actively suggest that things are broken when they’re not before you grab a glass of wine and collect all the data.

   Another team has now hired an external consultant to review the work, and it turns out that the data shows that our projects are out-performing the projects the consultant used to benchmark us against competitors. But the consultants didn’t actually show the numbers, just a “competitive snapshot” and “successful examples”. Given that my colleague and I do this work daily, we knew something was weird about the numbers. So we dug into their report and determined that if you compare things in context, we are performing better than competitors. There’s a number of other errors in the consultants’ report when you actually dig into what they’re looking at vs. the high-level snaptshot.

   I’ve mentioned this to my manager, and he commented that he didn’t want to judge them before they provided their final recommendations. And yet, I’m hearing from several people that they wonder if my colleague is right for the job/being effective/should continue owning these projects… ya know, given what the consultants said. So now I’m compiling the data on the nuances.

   I don’t know that I have a request, but its really frustrating to have a bunch of non-experts poking around and drawing incorrect conclusions (and kind of threatening to fire an effective employee?). I guess the advice is how do I effectively show the right data without being petty or defensive, and also help defend colleague (she’s technically got a dotted line to me, so it’s more than just me being nice to advocate for her as a strong member of the team)?

   1. This is poorly written and difficult to follow.

   2. Man, that’s really frustrating. I would get a really excellent presentation together showing how well your team is actually doing to show to your boss. If you can get the benchmark figures from the consultants to put into the presentation, that would be best. Unfortunately, your success will be determined by your sphere of influence. The more people you can get to doubt the findings (with specific questions in mind) before the final presentation by consultants, the better the potential outcome. Good luck, this is a tough one.

   3. Do you get to interact directly with the consultants? Perhaps you could discuss the findings (and don’t go in with a closed mind or chip on your shoulder —if it’s a true discussion you’ll be more likely to both learn from each other). That would help ensure these considerations have factored into final recommendations. You’ll also be more likely to talk to someone interested in the same level of detail. If you can’t get a discussion, I would raise considerations in writing with hopes your boss would determine which to pass along. Leave the employee out of it. And leave your anger out of it. And at some point recognize that others don’t always owe you an explanation. The dismissiveness you describe isn’t always that someone doesn’t understand what you’re saying—but that they are done listening and want to move on.

10. Do you guys size up or down in Rothys? Do any of the styles work with narrow ankles/wide forefeet?

    1. Size up a whole size for the pointed toe, size up a half size for the rounded toe.

       I have triangle duck feet, with narrow heels and wide forefoot/bunions/splayed toes. I own both styles, and find them both comfortable.

       Compulsory $20 off: https://share.rothys.com/x/WMPc3q

Comments are closed.