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Updated: Aug 20, 2024 334 Comments · by

Weekend Open Thread

Fashion

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Michael Antonio Women's Matteo Pump

Something on your mind? Chat about it here.

For weekend wear, the farthest we might venture into the “peep-toe bootie” trend is this Matteo pump (which even then is technically not a bootie). We like the fact that it's beige (elongates the legs), has a platform (easier to walk in) and dips down in the front (far more flattering than a straight across-the-ankle look).

The price is pretty reasonable, too — $71.95 at Endless. It's also available in black, turquoise, and tan. Michael Antonio Women's Matteo Pump

About Kat

Kat Griffin is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Corporette. You can read more about her here.

Comments

  3. Another Anon

    Confession to Building Services:

    I only complained about the flickering lights in my office because the hot electrician was in today.

    • married enjoying this vicariously

      What an impressive strategic little corporette you are!

      • Suze

        Love it! What day does he come to my building? And @ vicarious, we’re married, not dead – you can still LOOK at hot things :)!

        • JessC

          This. My mother (who has happily married to my dad for 30 years til the day she died) used to say, “The day I can’t appreciate a good looking man anymore, just take me out back and shoot me.”

    • Amy

      In our office it’s the hot IT guy. Whenever he’s on-call we suddenly develop a lot of problems with the computer network “running slowly” or suddenly remember we have a whole bunch of software we need him to install. I would feel bad but hey, work is about my only “safe space” to ogle where my son or my husband isn’t around. :) We also have a cute admin assistant we’re trying to set him up with, to no avail so far.

    • Shayna

      I’m jealous… the closest thing to ‘hot’ in my office is “sort of distinguished but my father’s age”… aka, not

      • katyjink

        *sigh* I’m right there w/Shayna….only a couple of guys in my office are even my age but no one head-turning. Additionally, in my govvie organization, all the IT guys are pretty much out-of-shape Trekkies. Must go up to third floor to scope out….

  4. wow

    Wow, that is the ugliest shoe I’ve ever seen. Take a modern trend and make it old and grandma-ish by pretending it’s beige wicker.

    Seriously, that is one bad shoe. . . crocs bad. It made me throw up a little in my mouth.

  5. Ellen

    If I don’t get an OR soon to do my case, I’m just going to sit in my office all day making lattes from my new nespresso machine.

    • K

      LOL. I did that last summer when we stayed at a hotel with one. DH: “Do you want to go to the pool?” Me: “No, I’m fine RIGHT HERE…”

  6. SF Bay Associate

    For those of you with significant others, how do you not get flak from your SO if you buy an expensive item? Last night, I was drooling over a pair of purple patent Ferragamos – approx $500. He was horrified. I have one pair of $500 shoes (Ferragamo Nene), but those seem to have flown more easily because I could give the “totally classic, will never go out of style, comfortable black pumps” shpiel. This argument will not apply as well to purple patent. And I love that LV Epi bag in Kat’s weekly update, but $1k!!! I could never get away with that even if I wanted to (and I’m not sure I do), as there are many more practical things to buy/save for than a very pretty, very, very expensive bag or pair of shoes.

    So, how do you work out the finances for splurge purchases? Or maybe you don’t at all? I’m not interested in hiding anything or lying, but maybe there are creative ways to head off problems?

    • E

      well, first of all, my husband is on a first-name basis with the leading seller of mens clothes at the flagship Nordstroms, so I actually don’t have to every explain clothing purchases, and my husband is actively encouraging my burgeoning collection of Cole Haans, so I don’t have this problem with clothes specifically.

      That being said, I think what works best for us is to acknowledge that we each have splurge purchases — for my husband it’s bikes and skis and ski equipment (he has 14 pairs of skis, and god knows how many boots to go along with them). I, on the other hand, love to partake in a day at the Korean spa every so often for a scrub and moisturize. We each don’t fully “get” why the other person likes to spend money that way, but we each have a budget for those splurges and don’t judge the other for spending that way.

      For a more mercenary approach, I would advise assessing what your husband’s splurges are, liken the shoes to those, and work out a compromise about budgeting. He may not see his splurges (do we really need a 44 inch TV, really?) but that’s what works for my husband and I.

      • anon

        great suggestion. I’m going to match my husband’s golf membership dues in kat-recommendation-splurges! :)

      • KelliJ

        My problem is my husband has no splurges. He doesn’t buy anything. He has 4 pairs of shoes total. He drives a 10 year old car. He brings his lunch to work every day. (And my hubby and I agree that we need the 44 inch TV!)

        • SummerAssociate

          Uff! I hear you. Mine’s the same way. And his office dress code is beneath business casual. But I feel stiffled if I try to match his unneccesary frugality.

    • anon

      This is a very good question…over several years, I’ve learned to designaate a certain $ amount from my annual bonus for non-arguable splurges. Simply to head off any disagreements. Most guys just don’t get it. Good luck. Would welcome any suggestions. (I get some pushback on what I spend on the kids, too! My daughter’s seven for all mankind jeans for kindergarten are a family legend!)

      • Anonymous

        I’m the same anon from 4:37pm on 8/20 so my actual response is below… and I don’t mean to be judgy because you should spend your money as you want to spend it, but I personally think that buying expensive clothes for kids really just makes them think that everyone can have that kind of stuff and makes them not understand the value of a dollar. Plus at 5 she can’t even appreciate that one kind of jeans is nicer than another and she’ll probably go through them just as quickly. So I kind of agree with your family on that one. If you don’t need to save more for her college or something, put the money away for a shopping spree when she’s old enough to appreciate it or a mommy-daughter trip or something.

    • PG

      I think that 1k for such a beautiful bag is worth it. Ideally I would like to pay only half of that, but such is life. You will have that bag for a long long time.

      Confession, I love holding and hugging beautiful leather bags. Its’ like hugging luxury with great tactile feel. :)

      • Anonymous

        When I got my Cole Haan purse it took me more than a week to work up the nerve to actually wear it out. Instead, I’d take it out of its dust bag, hug it, smell it, and put it back. I did this like six times a day. Love.

    • NYC

      We are kind of in the reverse situation. DH is much more likely to buy really big ticket apparel items and not even try to find them on sale. I am more likely to be controlling about $$ and spending. I recognized this and before we got married, proposed that we maintain separate accounts for this kind of discretionary spending. He thought I was insane at first, but, several fights later, finally understood my point and this is the system we use. In the end, I probably spend more on clothes (way more if you factor in beauty services — highlights are a fortune!), but the point is that we are both free to spend without the other being involved or even in a position to review. Spending for separate trips (bachelor parties, girls weekend, etc) and entertainment also works this way.

      • Forestgirl

        This is what we do too. DH and I each keep a certain amount for spending on whatever, and we both try to be good about not commenting on the other’s purchases. It works fairly well for us in terms of avoiding conflict over spending.

    • AD

      Great question! I have the same issue – at least sometimes. We had the two separate budgets discussion and it went nowhere, because what it comes down to is that he likes to be involved in all of the decisions (and to be fair, vice versa). Sometimes this works to my advantage, as he has good taste and an interest in at least some fashion/accessories – for example, purchasing a Bottega bag is really pending *my* decision to do so, since he sees the workmanship and appreciates the classic-ness of it. On the other hand, it leaves me the same place SF is at, in terms of the more splurgy items. He’s also not into jewelry. :(

      Unfortunately, he’s not much of a splurge person on his own. He has some nice clothes/shoes, but once he’s filled out the wardrobe he’s done. Until he feels the need to buy another high-end bike, I think I’m not in a negotiating position.

      • Forestgirl

        DH and I have separate budgets for these things, but that doesn’t prevent me from asking for his feedback when I want it, and vice versa. So you can involve the other person while still retaining ultimate control over the money budgeted to you. (This sounds a little anal but it actually works perfectly in real life and doesn’t seem too structured or non-relationship-y.)

    • HotInTheCity

      This is sad, but we now do 3 accounts: joint, his, and mine. Basically, we get allowances and as long as we stay within those, we can buy whatever we want. I instituted it when he complained about a purse I bought. =) No more complaints.

      • Forestgirl

        I don’t think it is sad, I do the same thing! I think it is helpful for us–we share, so we feel like we are in the relationship together, but we also have our own money so we don’t feel dependent on the other. It is great.

      • Amy

        We do this too. We are on each other’s accounts (I highly recommend this in case of an unexpected illness or death; getting access to someone’s accounts in an emergency when they are not able to consent is difficult), but we have his-mine-ours and I don’t “check” his account and he doesn’t check mine. It honestly saves so much argument. I grew up lower-middle-class and my parents fought about money constantly. My husband grew up poor and money was a constant problem for his single mom. We tried combining finances when we were still just living together/engaged and it was a disaster; I almost considered not getting married because it caused so much discord. When we separated our finances it solved a lot of problems. All the bills get paid and investments get made, etc., but no one has to blow a gasket because there’s a “forgotten” purchase that doesn’t get recorded, or someone spends too much on an item the other considers frivolous. I think it’s awesome if people can combine finances and make it work, but it didn’t for us.

        As to the original question – we’ve agreed that $200 is the ceiling of what we should be spending at one time. I don’t police him and he doesn’t police me, but I respect my marriage and don’t exceed the ceiling without telling him. Very honestly, he knows by now that I am the world’s biggest bargain shopper and if he sees me with something that should cost $300, he knows I didn’t pay more than $100 for it. And as for him – he is not a big spender on clothes (although he loves Jhane Barnes and Ike Behar, he gets most of his at clearance sales or on eBay) but spends quite a bit on computer stuff. We try to respect both each other’s autonomy and the agreement that we made with each other, without doing Mommy/Daddy-style babysitting of each other’s spending. I am not sure it would work for everyone, but it works for us.

      • K

        His/mine/ours works well for us too – we’ve set it up so that a certain amount from each of our paychecks gets direct deposited into the joint account, and all joint household bills are paid from that account. We also have a set amount going into joint savings automatically. The rest of each paycheck goes into the personal account, from which we are free to spend as we please.

        I almost never buy things for myself, anyway, expensive or not, so I honestly can’t think of any time in the three years we’ve been together that I’ve bought something and he’s looked askance at me for it.

    • Anonymous

      Well, first, I don’t buy what I can’t actually afford. If I’d have to use credit to get something (as opposed to using a credit card b/c I get a points and then paying it off the same month) or if my purchase means putting less money in savings this month, I understand why he’d be annoyed. But if I can afford it, it’s just a question of my priorities v. his. If we mutually agree to save money toward a mutual splurge like a vacation, I don’t spend that money on things that are just for me. But if it’s extra money from my paycheck/bank account and we’re not mutually saving for anything, he doesn’t really have the right to comment.

      Also, he can appreciate the difference in quality between a $500 Cole Haan and a $50 Nine West bag. Ten Nine West bags won’t last as long as one Cole Haan.

      Hope this helps!

      • Forestgirl

        This sounds pretty much like the three accounts method–his, hers, and theirs.

        I think the problem some people are having (at least I assume this is the problem) is that all the money first goes into one account, so that it is all being mutually saved if it isn’t spent. Since it is joint money, spending it on large-ticket items is a joint decision.

        • Anonymous

          Well, I’m not married so we have completely separate financial lives. But he’ll notice if I show up with a new purse and, let’s be realistic, if I get something new I want to show it off to him.

    • molly

      i don’t tell him what each individual purchase costs, though we discuss total splurge/frivolous type dollars. and i keep my total spending in check. when/if he raises any eyebrows at the bags, i point out to him, e.g., that he “needed” one of the new iphone 4s when he already had an iphone 3.

    • Louise

      I’m not advocating this for you, but what worked for me was this:

      The husband that gave me crap about money is now my ex. Of course, this didn’t just include splurges on clothing, but we were simply financially incompatible on just about everything.

      When I found a man who was truly generous of spirit, I found husband #2. I think I’ll keep him.

      • Panicked

        With ya on that Louise! Money crap was pretty much the undoing of my first marriage (he didn’t make it, I did, he spent it…and more). Second husband is best in the world and very, very generous of spirit, and I thank my lucky stars every day that he found me!

        And thanks so much for your insight on my Help! post below. As you said, having a supportive husband DOES make all the difference.

    • Independent Woman

      If you make your own money, why can’t you spend it the way you like? I don’t get flak from my husband when I splurge, because he’s not a controlling person, I am a professional with a good salary, and it’s really nothing for him to get “horrified” over. As long as everyone can pay the bills and has some emergency money, what’s the problem?
      Not to get all Suze Orman on you, but money is a symptom, not the cause.

    • ADS

      We do the his/mine/ours thing too – both of our paychecks go into the joint account (and all utilities, mortgage, groceries, etc., are paid from that account, and joint savings money comes out of that account also), but we each get a set amount of money in our personal checking accounts too. He doesn’t need to approve my spending on work clothes, and I don’t need to approve his poker night budget or lunches out. We’re neither of us the type to run up credit card bills – we don’t spend it if we don’t have it – so neither of us worries about “monitoring” the other’s personal spending. This also makes it easier to surprise the other with presents – I took him to Miami for our anniversary, completely unexpectedly, and he threw me a massive surprise party for my 30th birthday. If we didn’t have separate checking accounts and credit cards (in addition to the joint accounts and cards) there’s no way we could have pulled those surprises off.

      If one of you is more “spendy” than the other, or if one of you has a tendency to run up debt, then I personally think that’s a bigger compatibility issue. Not that it can’t be worked out, but it requires a lot of straight talk about expectations and budgets and limitations. Separate accounts won’t solve an underlying money problem, but it can smooth over the logistics of figuring out whose splurge gets indulged this month.

    • michelle

      In my family, we keep separate checking accounts and joint savings, separate credit cards too. We each have bills we take full responsibliity for (he does insurance, I do electricity and oil, etc), agreed to longer term savings commitments (he packed away retirement, I took kid college funds), and while we talk about anything “significant” (when first married this meant a couple of hundred dollars, now it means thousands) and other than that we spend as we like. Neiether one of us is a nutty spender, but I definitely have a Zappos habit he teases me about, and I joke back about the endless stream of DVDs.

    • michelle

      In my family, we keep separate checking accounts and joint savings, separate credit cards too. We split up the bills based on an equal percent of income going to bill payment, but we each have specific bills we take full responsibliity (he does insurance, I do the oil bill, etc), agreed to longer term savings commitments (he focuses on retirement funds, I did kid college funds), and while we talk before spending anything “significant” (when first married this meant a couple of hundred dollars, now it means thousands) and other than that we spend as we like. Neiether one of us is a nutty spender, but I definitely have a Zappos habit he teases me about, and I joke back about the endless stream of DVDs. It helps that the bill paying comes first, so we’re never spending money with a “better” use on frivolous items, and we don’t accumulate credit card debt.

    • AN

      Hmmm good question. At our place, the husband is totally cool with SPLURGE stuff. I mean, jewellery, posh haircuts, posh shoes (he has given up there but he does know I suffer from myriad foot issues) are all OK (his logic = women are different & they need $100 haircuts and nice pearls, men can do with $10 haircuts). He rarely seems to splurge though he earns more than me – so I do carry a lot of spendy-guilty-ness around.

      What he doesn’t get is why I need 3 wrap dresses (as opposed to 1) or 4 black tees, etc. In a word, the less expensive ‘come & go’ stuff.

      Anyway after many tussles over the last 12yrs, we have now decided to ‘live & let live’. Go figure.

    • mew

      budgeting. We each have a certain amount of “me” money that we can save/spend on what we like. I don’t get why he wants to spend his money on certain things, but it is his to do with as he wishes.

    • jcb

      Ok, I am late to the party, just scrolling through and saw this. No advice on how to manage your husband, but I can tell you that Cole Haan has some great purple patent pumps out right now. Just bought a pair myself. They are more like $200, more palatable for the hubby and seem well-made (though today is my first day wearing them).

  7. Anon

    What are people’s recommendations for lingerie that is not meant to be worn outside the bedroom, if you get my drift? Not too…porny for lack of a better word, but for me and my husband’s enjoyment. I apologize if you think this is an inappropriate topic.

    • SF Bay Associate

      This exact topic was discussed several months ago in another weekend open thread (google?), which will give you some great leads right off the bat.

    • Amy

      Frederick’s of Hollywood is known for the, uh, “porny” stuff they offer, but they do have some things that are more modest. There’s a lot of “yowza” stuff, don’t get me wrong, but every catalog they do have some things that are pretty rather than slutty.

      However, my caveat is that we don’t have unlimited funds, so I don’t care to spend a lot on any clothing that won’t be seen by anyone but my husband, and then only for a limited time. Frederick’s has a reasonable price point for their stuff, even if it is not terribly subtle. But I have to say, and I hope this isn’t appropriate either, that my experience with men is that they rather enjoy the un-subtle lingerie and the finer points of construction of the more expensive stuff (real silk, French lace, etc.) are somewhat lost on them as they’re generally focused on other things at the time. But yes, for things that are both beautiful and sexy, Agent Provocateur, Kiki de Montparnasse, etc. are good choices.

      • E

        Totally agree! My husband has bought me a few things that it slightly horrifies me, the trade off between minutes worn and cost….I’ll look at Fredericks. Thanks!

    • KelliJ

      When I was shopping for my honeymoon, I picked up some beautiful pieces from Cosabella. Not cheap but really pretty.

    • ADS

      I definitely recommend Frederick’s of Hollywood also. Wide range of “porniness,” from very to not at all, and a reasonable price point.

  8. Clerky

    I’ve been waiting for the weekend thread! I am moving to Philadelphia in a few short months and would love some recommendations on good places to shop for work appropriate clothes in the city. More interested in boutiques and possibly even consignment stores, not so much in mall chain stores. I mostly shop at Nordstrom on sale and Nordstrom Rack at this point, but am interested in finding some uniques places in Philly to shop. Thanks!

    • AE

      There is a huge, beautiful Macy’s in downtown Philly. I can’t remember what street it’s on. I’m from DC and shopped there when I visited Philly recently. I told the salesperson that I was visiting from out of town and they gave me some sort of tourism discount, either a percentage off or a waiver of the sales tax (I can’t remember which).

      • Clerky

        Thanks AE! I’m coming from DC too, and the Macy’s here is not very good so I’ve never been a fan. I have heard that department stores can vary quite a bit from city to city though, so I will check it out.

      • legalicious07

        Try the Philadelphia Outlets. It’s easy to get to and well worth the drive!

    • Miriam

      I just moved to Philly area too! I’m so excited to check out a new city. I’ve always been more into NYC.

    • ADS

      Greene Street Consignment on South Street is definitely worth checking out. I’ve found some VERY nice pieces there.

      • Anonymous

        The Cherry Hill Mall (15 minutes over the bridge into Jersey) has a Nordstrom, a decent Macys, and J Crew. King of Prussia Mall (15-45 minutes west of Philly, depending on traffic) also has a Nordstrom and a Nordstrom Rack plus Bloomingdales and Neiman Marcus. Franklin Mills Mall (about 45 min. north of Philly off of Rt. 95) is an outlet mall that has a Saks Off 5th and a Last Call Neiman Marcus, plus an Ann Taylor outlet and a Kasper store (I think those are all still there!). The Rittenhouse Sq. area downtown has a number of nice boutiques and a few consignment places. When I lived in Philly I actually preferred shopping at the malls to shopping downtown, because I could throw all my stuff in the car as opposed to lugging it all the way home!

    • Nancy P

      There are a number of boutiques in the Old City area (north/south of Market between 3rd and 1st). I think the quality varies widely, but it’s definitely unique stuff. Also the high-end jeans store is on Market between 2nd and 3rd. I love that area — lived there for a year.

    • katyjink

      Nordstrom Rack update: For those in the DC area, BTW, Nordstrom Rack is opening two new stores on Aug 26 (Arlington and Fairfax, VA). Yippee, as I’m in Arlington!

  10. PG

    Update on Sofft shoes that I ordered from Kats post few days ago. They arrived today. I had to order 8 instead of 7.5 asmy size was not available. Sadly my feet are coming out while walking. HOwever the leather is really soft and at the price point, I might just suck it up and stuff some wool in the toebox. Also the footbed is not as substantial as I thought it would be, i.e., not thick enough. I will feel the road if I walk a lot in it. Which is kinda bummer.

    The Sofft shoes I tried on in store had thicker soles.

    • Louise

      I’m always disappointed when I try on Sofft shoes. So many people rave about them, but they just aren’t comfortable enough for me. I’m sorry you had a disappointing Sofft experience, too.

  11. legalchef

    Hi ladies,

    I just got engaged!!!!!!!! So, how did all of you who have planned a wedding balance the planning and the working? Any tricks to avoid the constant googling of “wedding venue nyc”?

    And, any of you NYC corporettes – any advice in general?

    Thanks!

      • lawDJ

        Totally agree. I used the Miami local boards on the knot a TON for my Miami wedding. SUPER helpful. But addictive too. And congrats!!

    • Suze

      Yay! Congratulations!!!! Okay, I got married earlier this year – it was 2d wedding and we both have kids and all that, so a very informal beach affair for ~75 people. My first wedding was a lollapalooza thing for 250 people…I don’t really remember the planning on it, but I had a year to do it and it was a long time ago. What I did this time around re ‘balancing’ planning, work and family obligs is… I just didn’t do that much. Once the venue was done, my assistant (who had gotten married in same town a year or so ago) gamely compiled lists of photographers, florists, caterers, music, etc and I just picked thru those, made selections, sent deposits and was done with it. That will work well for a small not too elaborate affair. If you are going with more people (75 was more than I thought we would, but those things play like that) or pretty elaborate details/accoutrement, I would say seriously consider a planner or selecting a venue that is sort of ‘full-service’ geared to weddings so they can do/coordinate a lot of the moving parts.

      Congrats and enjoy the ride!!

      • MelD

        Off-Topic follow up- did you ever get a chance to try out any of the thrift stores we talked about a month ago? I’m wondering whether you found anything particularly good.

        • Suze

          Hey MelD – thanks. No, I haven’t been – it’s been a hectic few weeks, and I was out for vacay (aaaaaaaaaaaahhhh) last week. But I am committed to checking out the one in Ybor. I’ll report back. Cross our fingers that my report is some yummy Chanel suit or fabulous bag for ridiculously low $. :)

    • Louise

      Congrats! What great news, and such a fun time of life!

      I don’t have any advice to give you because the first time I got married was so very, very long ago that I’ve forgotten all the planning details. And the second time, I was self-employed so the planning just became another part of the work day.

      Best of luck and have a great time choosing venue, dress, vows, etc.

      • PJB

        I am so atypical. Even as a little girl, I was never interested in the process of getting married. I didn’t imagine my perfect dress, or ring, or locale, or any of it. I did want to get married, and I have, twice. But I never imagined a fantasy wedding, I just didn’t care about it. I did imagine becoming a doctor, or a writer, and eventually being the lawyer I have become.

        My first marriage, I didn’t even know what finger the ring went on. I do recall the jewelry store saleswoman was stunned at my complete stupidity on the topic.

        Both of my marriages were performed by judges, followed by a happy party with our friends thereafter.

        That said, congratulations, and I wish you and your beloved a long and happy marriage.

        • UnSub

          I was the same – not interested in weddings at all. Even after I met *the-perfect-man* I was waaayyy more interested in having a successful marriage than having a successful wedding. The blessing was that mom my is one of those people who love to throw parties and was thrilled to handle the wedding in total. It was a beautiful affair for 150 people (I knew about half of them) and completely stress free for me. I remember going to a couple of dress fitting and a cake tasting and not much else.

          Years and years later, the marriage is still successful (Mr. Perfect still is) and we have beautiful wedding pictures. Win-win.

          Congratulations and enjoy every minute!

          • anon

            This is great! So many people think about just a wedding– not a marriage. Glad to hear you have your priorities in order :)

    • Biglaw Refugee

      I haven’t tried to do this, but I will tell you what I think you should NOT do. Do not let it take over your day in a way that will be noticeable to others, especially those senior to you. An associate who was in the office next to me was planning her wedding last year. She had a voice that carried, and so whenever she was talking I could hear every word. In addition to spending a lot of time on the phone coordinating things for the wedding, she also talked incessantly to her officemate (who was male and probably bored out of his skull) about it. I realize it may be unfair – perhaps I would have been just as obsessed if I had gotten married at her age and responsibility level – but I formed a view of her as superficial and self-centered.

      So, my suggestions are: try to make some phone calls before you go in to work, handle some others during a limited period around lunchtime, and otherwise just let the calls go to voicemail. Try to save the endless debates with your mom for after hours. No one is going to condemn you for having to spend a bit of work time on wedding arrangements, but try to set some limits so that people still think of you as committed to your job.

      • CJ in CA

        This! Watch some of the season of the Office where Pam is planning and everyone hates her!

    • KelliJ

      Congratulations! At the beginning, it seems like you’re constantly looking at wedding stuff, but once you pick the venue and the other vendors, the wedding planning goes on auto-pilot until about 2 months before the wedding. We got engaged at Christmas and married the following October. Up to March was a little crazy interviewing vendors but once we got everything down we were able to focus on other things like dance lessons, registering for gifts, and planning the honeymoon in Hawaii. I remember that finding the right invitations took me a little while. We had all of our vendors picked pretty early in the process because we were getting married on Cape Cod. Very popular, lots of competition for dates and good vendors.

      My little bit of advice is enjoy the process! I loved planning our wedding. And once the big day arrives, let everything go and have fun.

    • Anonymous

      Congrats!!! What an exciting time!

      I liked indiebride for ideas and suggestions. Have your intended do some of the planning — his wedding too! (You have to be able to let go a bit for this to work.) Try to find as many vendors as possible that you can meet with or talk to on the weekends (this is harder than it sounds). If you really, really try not to do wedding things during work hours, no one will care that there are some things that you have to do during work hours, just like doctors appointments, et al must occur during work hours. Two weeks before my wedding one of the senior partners told me I was the calmest bride he’d ever seen, and I still remember that with pride.

    • ADS

      Congrats! I got married in NYC almost four years ago now, and I also highly recommend the NYC Knot boards for advice.

      Here is my best piece of advice for anyone planning a wedding, especially one in a place as expensive as New York City: you and your fiance should pick the three, maybe four things that are MOST important to you. For us, it was photographer, food, and band. Focus on not compromising on what you want for those three or four things – get the closest to exactly what you want that you can afford. Let everything else take a backseat. So, I did not splurge for engraved invites; and I got a great dress, but I didn’t spend a fortune on it; and I got very nice flowers, but I didn’t spend any time obsessing over what I wanted: I found a reasonably priced florist, and gave her my budget and a general idea of color scheme (I think I said “Autumnal?”) and let her do her thing. We got married at our synagogue with the Rabbi who’s known me for ten years, and we went with a “standard” Jewish ceremony: we didn’t write our own vows or anything. It is easy to feel overwhelmed with making everything perfect, but it’s much more important (in my opinion) to prioritize your time and focus on the things that matter most to the two of you.

      Four years later, people still talk about how great our food was, and I have the best wedding pictures I’ve ever seen, and the fact that we didn’t have a flowered chuppah doesn’t bother me at all.

      • KelliJ

        That’s excellent advice. It sounds like we got married around the same time. Fall 2006. My theme was Autumn in New England.

        Another thing I just thought of is don’t let expense get in the way of some of your ideas. I found that there were a lot of fun DIY projects that gave our wedding a more expensive feel, but were actually pretty cheap and easy to do. My mom, bridesmaids and I made our menu cards and seating cards while my husband and the boys were golfing (his bachelor party). Our seating cards were attached to mini-pumpkins which were also our favors. I did them for under $200 for 110 pumpkins. The florist quoted me $1000. My dad made our programs for the ceremony with a package of ivory cardstock and his printer. (I made my sister’s programs for her wedding.) I bought all the paper and got great ideas at the Paper Source.

        I am no Martha Stewart, but I really got creative and everything just came out perfect. Have fun with it!

  12. TX 5th Year Attorney

    Sometimes ‘the guys’ (partners) will stop by and ask me if I’d like to join them for lunch. Most of my slacks and skirts don’t have pockets, and I’m wondering, how do y’all carry money when you go to lunch with ‘the guys’? (I understand that if you might have the luxury of having other women attorneys in your office, this might not be a big deal.) Do you carry your purse, wallet or a wad of money? Thanks, Ladies!

    PS – Yes, I just posted this in the ‘comments’ this week, but Wendy, if you are reading the Weekend Open Thread, please let us know how it’s going! Your post on the Weekend Open Thread a couple of months ago about your terrible, horrible, no good, very bad job has made me think of you so much.

    • Res Ipsa

      I don’t generally bring a purse to work, so I just bring my wallet. It’s not ideal (you still have to put it somewhere safe–i.e., lap or on the booth next to you). I can’t imagine there would be any issue with bringing your purse if you wanted to–I would guess most men would either be oblivious or assume it’s normal for a woman to carry a purse to lunch.

    • JJ

      If we’re going out to a *real* restaurant, I just grab my purse and phone off my desk. If we’re going to a place where we’ll pick up food and either bring it back or eat in a food court type area, I’ll just bring my wallet (without my iPhone, so subversive).

      This is all hypothetical, of course. At my firm the male attorneys don’t eat lunch with the female attorneys. We’re as bad as a fifth-grade dance.

    • anon-ny

      Winter and cooler weather is easier because I will have a jacket or coat but in the summer I rarely to never have pockets so I just carry my wallet on its own. I see many women carry their whole purse to lunch but since I generally carry a larger purse for commuting needs, I usually like to travel light to lunch and leave it behind.

    • Anonymous

      I just take my purse. Once my boss asked me and another woman colleague why we were carrying our purses to Starbucks, and I just said that I didn’t like to carry my wallet and sunglasses in my hand because I might drop them. He just said, ‘oh, that makes sense,’ and never mentioned it again. I think it just didn’t occur to him that ladies’ wallets don’t fit in our pockets, if we even have pockets.

      One of my colleagues tucks her debit card in the ID card holder she wears clipped to our pants with her building access ID. That might work too if you don’t want to carry a purse.

    • Forestgirl

      Wristlet that I keep in my large purse for this very purpose (well, not lunch with “the guys” but when I don’t want to carry my purse outside).

    • MelD

      I use a wristlet for my wallet, so I can just take that out if I go somewhere and don’t want/need to carry a huge bag.

      • S in Chicago

        Definitely get a wristlet. I recently bought two when Tory Burch had a sale–one is a crackled sort of black leather and the other a gray snakeskin sort of thing. Best money ever spent. It’s so nice to have what you need without being totally weighed down. And they’re simple enough in style that I still feel like a grown up.

    • Alex

      Before I started reading this blog, it would never have occurred to me to do anything other than carry my purse, nor notice whether someone else did. One thing I have learned is that some people are extremely detail oriented/observant and will notice and possible judge all kinds of little things about you. It’s a good thing to be aware of; things I don’t think are important actually are to some people, and some of those people might be my bosses. Also, remember the discussion about how if you carry your purse to the bathroom people will assume you have your period?

      RE: Purse carrying: there’s just a wide array of little items I like to have handy and it’s easier to just keep it all in one place rather than try to predict every day what I’m going to need. Am I likely to need my hairbrush in a restaurant? No. But if I had to selectively chose all the items I might need every tmie I left my office or home I would go crazy (and for get things). And you never know when you’ll find yourself in the situation where you don’t have cash and they don’t take plastic, so I keep my checkbooks with me as well.

      • Anon for this one

        I have a medical condition where I really need to use baby wipes after going to the restroom (sorry if this is tmi) so I carry a little clutch with me to the bathroom every time I go. They must think I am constantly menstruating, or weird, or both!

        • Louise

          Anon, have you considered keeping the babywipes in the bathroom? Or is your workplace so large that isn’t feasible?

          I work in a predominantly male field. I had an office environment where I had to walk across a very large, open space to get to the bathroom. When I had my period, I left my tampon box taped to the wall of one of the stalls with a note that said, “If you need one, take one, but please don’t take them all and replenish any you use.” There were few enough of us women that we trusted each other and this worked well for me.

          I think I could do the same with babywipes, but of course your situation may be quite different.

          • Anon

            I did just that at my last two jobs but it doesn’t seem feasible at this one. Much larger office, more people sharing space, clients using the same restroom, etc.

        • Another anon

          I think that, if they even notice, they think it’s a makeup bag and you’re touching up your lipstick. Actually I don’t think guys even notice that you’re carrying a little bag.

        • Another Anon for this one

          I, too, have to take baby wipes everywhere for the same reason…glad to “meet” someone else.

          I wouldn’t like to leave baby wipes in my restroom because I’d be afraid of people getting their germy hands on them….yuk! So I am also stuck with a clutch in the absense of big pockets.

        • Anon

          This is one of those things I just can’t imagine grown-up people caring about. Did I care about what people thought about what I was carrying to the bathroom when I was in middle school/high school? Yes, of course, I was a teenage girl who, like most teenagers, thought every move she made was under a magnifying glass.

          But now, with an adult perspective, I can’t imagine anyone noticing what I may carry to the bathroom at work, and, if they do notice, I can’t imagine them caring about or analyzing it. I certainly don’t scrutinize my co-workers’ bathroom carry-on habits. And if they do analyze it, well, I just don’t give a hoot. People use the bathroom. Sometimes then carry things with them that they need to use in the privacy of the bathroom. Whatever, big whoop.

          • Louise

            I wish all my coworkers could be counted on to have your same adult perspective. Unfortunately, once one has had one’s menstrual schedule discussed by male coworkers that laissez-faire attitude tends to disappear.

            Was it appropriate on their part? Absolutely not. Do I try to keep it a secret now? Absolutely.

            Your mileage, of course, will vary.

          • Anon for this one

            I guess that is the benefit of taking my pouch to the bathroom everytime! They can’t guess when it is “that time!”

    • nonA

      I don’t think there is anything wrong with carrying a purse. Most of these guys have, at some point, been married/had a girl friend (and if they are of the other persuasion, they will just admire your fabulous bag) and are used to women carrying purses. I don’t think we need to be afraid to carry a purse around. Its OK to be a woman.

      If your every day purse is really a giant tote and its just a pain to carry to lunch, I join in the wristlet recommendation.

      I think the only time anyone will really notice and think negatively of a woman with a purse is if she squeals “oohh, my Louis can’t touch the floor and I don’t want to stretch the straps out by hanging it on the back of my chair so I’m going to make the waiter bring over an extra chair for it at our (already overly full) table.” (This has happened to me. I found it ridiculous. I’m sure most men would times ten.)

      • anon

        I’m confused why you wouldn’t carry a purse if you brought a purse to work. Who would find that weird?

        I asked a boyfriend once about whether guys notice when I take my purse to the bathroom when I have my period and he looked at me as if I had asked if guys notice if my heels are 3 1/2 or 3 3/4 inches high. In other words, he could not imagine any man noticing such a thing. And for a guy, he was pretty sensitive and aware of fashion, makeup and the like.

    • Shayna

      I carry my purse… I find that trying to just grab a $20 bill or my wallet leaves me missing some critical item… plus I have to wear an ID badge in the building and I need to stash it somewhere when we leave.

      • Another anon

        Yes, good idea to take off the ID badge outside. I realized that my ID badge advertises to the entire world my first and last name and the address where I work. This is not information I want every random person on the Metro to know!

    • Another Laura

      I have a “wallet on a string” that goes in my Lodis breifcase or tote for commuting. I just carry that for lunch or coffee breaks. It is really handy because it has a cell-phone pocket on it, and on the weekend I don’t have to transfer much.

    • ADS

      I fourth (fifth? sixth?) the wristlet idea – it’s what I do. I have a black Coach one that fits my BlackBerry if I’m not wearing it clipped to my waist, and I always keep $20 and a credit card in it.

    • Uh...

      Why wouldn’t you bring your purse? Isn’t it assumed that women carry purses? Perhaps I’m missing something, I don’t know but why is this an issue?

  13. mille

    Just a rant– I’m frustrated because I am here at the office listening to a collegue make phone calls that she could make later, while her client, with an appointment that should have started 15 minutes ago, sits in the waiting room outside her office! I hate not having the power to go in and tell her that she is being rude and stupid.

    • mille

      Sorry, 21 minutes late now. The client was early, no less. I am so frustrated.

      • mille

        And now that she is meeting with the client, she has interrupted the meeting to take at least 4 phone calls. I am crawling out of my skin with frustration here!

        • luluaj

          I may have missed as to why you are frustrated. Are you working with her on this client? Is her failure to prioritize affecting your workload? If not, I wouldn’t waste your energy getting in a dither. Life’s too short! It’s Friday!

          • mille

            True, very true. It’s not affecting me and shouldn’t even bother me– that’s why I post here, so people with experience and distance can keep me on the right track :)

          • Anon

            I, too, would be irked by the colleague’s behavior, because the actions of the employees reflect on the entire image of a firm/company. However, sometimes it’s better to focus your energies in a positive way, rather than being frustrated over something you cannot change. Happy Weekend!

    • Another anon

      This is annoying – but see the comments on yesterda’s posts about the Hall Monitor types in every office. You don’t want to be that person, so take a deep breath. Next time, perhaps walk out, say hi to the client, tell her you noticed she’s waiting and your colleague is on a call and offer her a cup of coffee.

  14. Amy

    I actually have those shoes – I think they’re super cute and actually flattering… but they are horribly uncomfortable :(

  15. samiam

    note to drink the shayna-style haterade, but i really can’t stand those shoes. they look very “snooki” to me.

    • E

      I don’t usually comment on the interpersonal issues among commenters on this board, but I find it pretty low to call out another commenter when she hasn’t discussed this shoe at all. Not clear why you needed to be so catty.

      • JAS

        I agree. There are some commenters whose posts I think are silly, repetitive, or what have you, but there’s really no need to be calling people out, ostracizing them, or ganging up on them. Frankly, I’m surprised and disappointed that there is such vitriol lurking in what, until recently, I thought was a congenial and supportive community.

        If you disagree or are annoyed with what someone says, respond in a substantive fashion or ignore them. No need to make it personal. And if you consistently find someone’s posts annoying, ignore that poster.

        No one of us is in charge of the comments section here (besides Kat) and I really find it offensive that some people are taking it upon themselves to categorically police other individuals. If you were guests at a cocktail party and met someone who you found annoying to talk to, the polite thing to do would be to simply excuse yourself from the conversation and go talk to someone else. The anonymity of the internet shouldn’t be used as a shield for rude behavior. I stopped reading ATL for the most pat because of this kind of thing.

    • Marmalade

      Totally inappropriate to disparage another commenter, especially without provocation and especially for something that most commenters do when they don’t like the item posted. (See, e.g., 3:22 comment in this post.)

    • Shayna

      Um, wow… Ok, thanks ladies for the advice and fellowship up until now, but I left junior high behind a long time ago, and I’m not interested in cutting remarks that remind me of it.

      • Unsolicited Advice

        Shayna, have you ever considered just commenting less frequently? I think people have been bullying you a little lately, and I don’t condone it. But you comment so often—multiple times per post, that it does give off a vibe of self importance. A person can’t possibly have something useful to say about every single topic, and yet you always post comment(s). E.g., you’re not a lawyer, yet you dip into every thread about law firms. And you are still relatively young and early in your career, but you post in the thread where people are seeking advice from those with experience.
        For better or worse, you have made yourself a major presence on this board… I read the comments most days, and I feel like I know your life story. Nothing wrong with that, but if you decide to make yourself such a prominent presence, I think you’re going to have to be thick-skinned when people refer to you.
        End of unsolicited advice.

        • A No n

          Every advice is exactly what you pay for it. Advice that costs you zero amount is worth zero. Especially unsolicated advice.

          Don’ t let bullies stop you Shayna and 75.

          I have seen incredible amount of bullying on this board. Especially audacious one was where some commentators wanted a particular poster to apologize to them.

          • Anonymous

            Mmmm. I remember Shayna’s comments on breastfeeding. Very immature. Funny how impressions are so longlasting.

        • ditto

          Thank you, Unsolicited Advice! I couldn’t agree more, yet I wouldn’t have phrased it as kindly.

          • Suze

            Wow. Let’s lighten up on Shayna, no? Even if you are carrying a *legitimate* grudge from a prior post or – and this is a stretch, IMHO – the frequency of her comments, doesn’t this start to feel pretty ‘bullyish’ and wholly inappropriate to this community? Just skip Shayna if you don’t want to read her, really. This level of animosity is over the top, and the fact that it is coming from ‘anonymous’ commenters or people who don’t want to use their ‘regular’ name is very off-putting (and telling). It is a “fashion and lifestyle” blog, not a forum for interpersonal criticism. Be nice.

          • Unsolicited Advice Again

            I made it clear that I thought there was bullying going on and that I don’t condone it. I enjoy the generally supportive vibe of this community, and I was simply offering a suggestion—and it’s just a suggestion—to help keep it that way. I apologize if my comment had a “blame the victim” undertone, but it was not a personal attack, and join the rest of you who think such attacks are inappropriate.

  16. lawyer_lady_27

    “We like the fact that it’s beige (elongates the legs) . . . .”

    I love the shoes. Love them. Just wanted to point out that some of your readers would wear darker colored shoes to elongate their legs.

    • surrounded by lawyers

      Good point. Especially since it comes in darker shades, could say something like “if you order these in the color closest to your skin tone…”

    • Another anon

      Kat’s obviously talking about her own legs. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect her to pretend she’s not white.

      • Lawgirl

        Yes, as a black woman, I thought, hum, will make my feet look big, not elongate ;-D

        • Anonymous

          Kat – perhaps you could do a guest post by a non-white Corporette featuring skin-tone shoes in shades flattering to non-white women?

      • legalicious07

        And I don’t think it’s reasonable for every reader to pretend that she (the reader herself) is white. Great. So we’re even. :-)

        • Kat

          I really apologize you guys — I do keep doing that, and it is because I’ve always put “nude” in my mind as “beige” because I was only thinking for myself (translating advice I had read to my own body/style). I’m going to write a post-it that nude does not equal beige.

          I’d love it if one of the non-white Corporette readers would offer a guest post on skin tones — email me at kat at corporette dot com to discuss.

          Oh, and I get asked the race question a lot — people have asked if I’m Asian, Latina… one cab driver asked if I was Indian… but the truth is that my heritage is primarily Polish and German, with a bit of Russian and English thrown in. I always take it as a compliment.

          • JAS

            Kat, thank you for working on this issue! Those kinds of default assumptions do contribute to the “othering” of people of color. I definitely make those kinds of mistakes myself – it’s hard not to since it’s so predominant in our society – but I am working on changing and it’s heartening to see others are as well.

          • AN

            Kat – I am Indian, therefore a “woman of colour” (but wait, isn’t white a colour too?). I never take these comments to mean that you’re not inclusive. I know you’re probably referencing yourself (we all do that, right?) in a given item of clothing etc.

            I am all for being politically correct, but I also recognise that occasional slips do not mean that someone is excluding the rest.

            This is probably cultural though. A big Indian pastime is laughing at different communities, and learning to laugh at ourselves in turn. We have jokes that target every community in India and they’re just good fun (not perceived as slander/hate). We’re all fair game.

            I work in a global (non Indian) company with over 100,000 employees and before ANY employee (regardless of nationality) tells a joke, they check to see whether Americans are around, before opening their mouths. As my (European) Jewish boss put it (prior to telling me a harmless Jewish joke): I can safely joke with you since you’re not American & will not label me racist.

            Bottom line: Ladies of all colours, do take all “nude=beige=mocha= whatever” references in the spirit that they’re intended, rather than the exact words used.

            Ok, now I shall wait for the hate mail.

          • anon

            AN, you have perfectly captured the Indian ethos and attitude of not taking such things personally. We know how to make fun and laugh at people making fun of us. All in good spirit. Not a lot of political correctness there.

            Living in US the last decade or so, I sometimes still am surprised at the sensitivity re some subjects.

            But then I have come to realize that in America, history is full of things said or done not in fun or mirth but from meanness of spirit.

          • anon

            Also I find that Indians do not describe themselves as people of any particular “color” in the racial sense. We do seem to range from white to somewhat dark “complexion” -norm for caucasians living in tropical climes. Maybe that is because we are racially same?

          • legalicious07

            Kat,

            Did anyone volunteer to write a guest post on skin tones? I’m interested, but I honestly don’t know the first about doing so. I have had a very hard time finding my “nude” shoes. But I’d love to chat about it.

    • legalicious07

      Judging from the tone and tenor of the comments above, I don’t think anyone took Kat’s comment personally. I don’t “take personally” the default color of band-aids or dolls or “nude” pantyhose or shoes. I do, however, make every effort to affirm the equal personhood and dignity of those for whom that is not the default color — which is most of the world’s population, mind you.

      There was nothing mean-spirited about Kat’s comment and nothing mean-spirited about the replies. It’s yet another opportunity for individuals in an increasingly diversified society to understand and accept one another.

      As for AN and anon, I’m not sure why you’re expecting hate mail, but my thoughts on the matter is as follows —

      I think anon hit the nail on the head when she pointed out the unique history of the United States and what it means to have had so many distinct groups settling one country. I’d love to hail from a country where there was less need for what you call “political correctness”, but instead I come from one where political and legal corrections were indeed needed to make this country tolerable for people of all complexions, yours included.

      AN, I also find it interesting that your anecdote points out a Jewish boss telling a Jewish joke. People within a certain in-group laugh and poke fun at themselves all the time, both in India and the US. But I’d be interested to hear about a time when your boss told a derogatory joke about Jewish people, or better yet, when your German co-worker did.

      In any event, I don’t think Kat was being offensive in any way (hence, the emoticons and lighthearted way that all of us replied). But it doesn’t mean that devoted readers are being “supersensitive” or “politically correct” to point out that a lauded pick would not elongate our own “nude” legs — particularly when there are other colors offered that would actually do so.

      • AN

        The joke wasn’t derogatory in the least. Here it is:

        Jewish lady: Oh you have such cute kids
        2nd Jewish lady: thanks
        1st lady: How old are they?
        2nd lady: The doctor is 5, the lawyer is 3

        The joke was to point out the very high value placed on education by Jews. Similar to Indians.

        Why do we assume ALL jokes are mean?

        • legalicious07

          AN,

          Please re-read my statement. I didn’t say that your boss told a mean or derogatory joke. Again:

          “AN, I also find it interesting that your anecdote points out a Jewish boss telling a Jewish joke. People within a certain in-group laugh and poke fun at themselves all the time, both in India and the US. But I’d be interested to hear about a time when your boss told a derogatory joke about Jewish people, or better yet, when your German co-worker did.”

  17. Caroline

    I am in need of some serious career advice.

    I am a 3L who is in the very top of my class at a school that is highly regarded in my region. I summered at a relatively small firm which is located in a very small town. I received a job offer from this firm earlier this week. In this market, I should probably be ecstatic to receive an offer in this economic climate, but I am not sure that I should take this job.

    The working environment is miserable. The managing partner is a jerk and yells at employees frequently. No one is willing to give any feedback or guidance. Although the partners claim that they have an open door policy, my experience this summer was that they do not want to answer questions or be bothered by associates. Everyone acknowledges that it is a difficult place to work. Even before I started working there, one of the associates warned me how horrible it is. That same associate told me at the conclusion of my summer that I should carefully consider ALL of my options before accepting the job. Others made sure to explain that not all firms are like that. So many people I worked with gave me unsolicited advice that indirectly suggested that I should avoid working at the firm if at all possible. The firm also has a very high turnover. Virtually everyone leaves after a few years, from paralegals to name partners. In particular, it appears as though virtually all of the associates leave after 2-3 years.

    There are also other factors that weigh against the firm. For one, I do not like the town in which the firm is located. I could never imagine myself living there, and I would never want to raise a family there. The firm’s two main practice areas are ones in which I have absolutely no interest. My long-term boyfriend would not be able to find a job in that town. Since we will both be graduating at the same time (although we will be working in different fields), we are trying to find jobs in the same city. If I accept this job, I am not sure our relationship will survive because long-distance relationships are not my cup of tea.

    In a better economy, I would never dream of accepting the offer. While it is an offer I do not want to accept, it is nonetheless an offer. The salary and benefits, while lower than I would like, are sufficient to pay my loans & bills, so it is a job I have to carefully consider.

    I don’t know what to do. The firm expects an answer soon, so I do not have time to try to find a better job before I give the firm my answer. If I do not accept this job, I am afraid that I will not be able to find another one, but if I do accept it, I am afraid that I will be missing an opportunity to find a better job, and I know that I will be miserable.

    Thank you, ladies, in advance for any advice you can give me!

    • Another Sarah

      From what you make it sound like, ANYWHERE would be better than there. But, you’re right in that the economy is not good for current or future law grads. However, keep in mind that because you’re at the top of your class at a well-respected school, you’re going to have less of a problem than others in finding another job. Unless the legal market where you are is completely sunk-underwater, I would say to move on. If it’s a horrible place to work, then don’t work there.

      There will be another offer. It may not come tomorrow, but there will be another offer. :-) Good luck!

    • NYC

      I would move on, as well. But do it in a way so as to not burn any bridges. Tell them that you had a great experience, bla, bla, bla, but you want to focus on geographic area X so that you and your BF can find a job in the same place. If this firm is as rough as you say, they will probably still be hiring next spring and you will have a better read on your job situation. A job is a job, but it is not worth signing up for a toxic work environment a year in advance. Good luck.

      • goirishkj

        Run away from this place. Do not pass go, do not collect $100. Yes, the economy is terrible, but even if you don’t find a job right away there are always options. Your loans will be in grace period for several months after graduation which gives you some time. Worst case scenario, I’m sure you have some relatives or friends you could live with. You can find a way without income stream. This sort of work environment is not worth it. Plus, you are a 3L–lots of jobs don’t come available until during 3L year. Have you considered clerkships? Deadlines come up soon, but it is something to consider. Law is hard enough. Even the best-run firms are stressful. It is just the nature of the job. If you know this is a bad fit, it will affect your health and it will affect your work, which will make it harder to move down the road. And yes, I’m speaking from experience–my old firm wasn’t abusive at all, but it just wasn’t a good fit for me. Consequently, my work suffered and I didn’t absorb what I needed to learn as a new associate. I lucked out and found something else that so far is a good fit. I’m much happier and healthier. I stuck it out in the old place too long because I didn’t want to leave, thinking that leaving was a failure. Sorry this is so long winded, but just don’t put yourself in that position starting out.

        • goirishkj

          Oh and lots of luck to you. Seriously, it is hard, but there are jobs and you have options. You are smart and hard-working and there’s always options for people like you!

        • lawyer_lady_27

          I agree completely. And anyhow, it sounds like you’re looking for an excuse to turn down the position — that should say something to you.

          My firm is super stressful as well, but I can deal with it because I like what I’m doing, and I like the people I’m working with. You don’t have to like everything about your job; that’s next to impossible. But you should feel like it’s worth your time, and like you’re learning, and like you are somewhat valued as an employee.

          You have time! You have nine whole months before graduation and bar prep. Just make sure you use your time wisely. Find alums who are working in cities you’re interested in, in firms/agencies/companies that seem worthwhile, and email them to see how they got there, and/or if there are any openings. Get clerkship applications in before the deadline (sometime in the first week of September, I think).

          Don’t forget to write “offer extended” on your resume if you end up not taking that job. Good luck.

    • mille

      My thoughts: It isn’t worth it to take the job if you aren’t going to be quitting it as soon as you find a better one.

      Your options are basically these–

      1. Take the job at miserable firm, and actively look for other opportunities. The firm probably has a widespread reputation as being difficult to work for, so prospective employers won’t find it strange that you are looking for new work so soon. See it as temporary–very temporary.

      2. Don’t take the job offer. Don’t put yourself in a position where you hate the town, hate the firm, hate the job and lose your boyfriend. Pretend you never got that job offer. Would you interview for it? I would guess you didn’t ask for it– you survived the summer internship and now they want you because you stuck it out and didn’t quit. Don’t waste your time moving to this town.

      3. Take the job and stay, not looking for another job. That’s what I did and I paid for it in stress, illness, and depression– including gaining 30 pounds. Unless you can’t find anything else anywhere and are totally broke, the money isn’t going to be worth the stress.

      I work in a firm of 6 lawyers. Of the two partners, one has massive mood swings and is impossible to talk to (unfortunately, also my direct boss) and the other is a jerk who can’t manage the firm. Backstabbing is common and the workload is crazy. Once I got pregnant, the very next day I was taken off all retained cases and given only the public defense cases that our firm does. I love that work, but it doesn’t bring in much money.

      I fought my way through a nervous-breakdown about 8 months into the job and have worked it out so I can function and be semi-happy, but if things get bad again I am out. It isn’t worth it.

      First years of practice are hard enough as it is. I was crying every night and working 12+ hour days with no support system at work. I’ll be on unpaid maternity leave Oct-Dec, and will take some of that time to try to find a better job.

      On the plus side, I can now handle heavy workloads, I have 2 years of practice under my belt and have learned to find a support system through the defense bar in my state– I’ve met lots of people who have been willing to be a mentor or just talk about things, people who understand that practicing public defense in a small county is lonely and hard. I can handle any type of client, and I’ve learned to adapt to my enviornment and find ways to make the work less miserable. I did gain the respect of my managing partner, who will give me a good recommendation when I leave (as long as I give her a month or so notice.) And, I have a paycheck and health insurance. (which I needed when I got sick from my job…..)

      • anon

        Agreed. And if you take options 1 or 3, max out your flex spending and get yourself into therapy before you think you “need” it. That work environment will necessitate therapy to deal with your stress level. Trust. And don’t be afraid of antidepressants, if your therapist (which you’ve been seeing for weeks/months at this point) thinks it’s something you should start considering. I ended up on antidepressants in my first year of big law, and I didn’t have to deal with any yelling partners like you would at this terrible-sounding firm. I’m off them now and feeling much better, but they were absolutely crucial at the time.

        • anon - chi

          This makes me very sad. :-( The idea of needing to start medication and therapy just to *survive* one’s job is awful. To the OP, it sounds as though you are choosing between an option that you know will be awful (taking the job) and an option that could be bad (unemployment) or could be great (finding another job that isn’t miserable). If it were me, I would take the second option rather than the obviously awful one, particularly since you are at the top of your class at a well-respected school.

    • MelD

      I think it depends a lot on your market and what other options are available. In my area there is no way I’d pass up any opportunity because what is available is barely enough to pay the bills, and you’ll probably be searching for months after you pass the bar even to find that job! On the other hand, if you’re in a region where good students get snapped up quickly before they pass the bar, there’s no reason to tie yourself to such an awful position. In either situation, I’d imagine you’d be a good candidate for a state-level clerkship.

    • Lobbyist

      Run! Life is too short. I never worked at a firm and have had a great career. When I graduated I had to teach Kaplan and sell retail for a few months but it all worked out. Hang in.

      • KelliJ

        This! There are lots of paths to success. A majority of people from my law school class quit law before the end of 5 years because they started at firms like the one you are describing.

    • Biglaw Refugee

      A small firm, in a geographic region other than where you want to practice, is not a good first stepping stone. It will be hard to find the next job, and you’ll likely feel depressed and start to lose confidence, which will further impair your hunt for a better job. I’d pass up the offer (nicely, as per the comments above) and ask the people who so kindly warned you off of the place whether they know anyone at any firms in the region you DO want to work in who might be willing to talk with you about the market and your job search. (Don’t limit to “do you know anyone who’s looking” – start with just getting people on the phone to chat and give you ideas about where you should be looking…if the conversation goes well and they know their firm is looking, they will bring it up.) I’d rather have to move in with my parents for a while than spend $ to move to a place I didn’t like, to work at a place like that. One way or another, things will work out, as long as you keep your options open so they CAN work out, instead of locking yourself into what sounds like a terrible situation.

    • Shayna

      Normally I would say to keep applying for other jobs – a miserable work life is no life at all, but that said, it’s a question of how long you can afford to not work, and what you can do in the meantime to make rent/loan payments/whatever… But – and you’re probably already do this – work whatever connections you may have, keep applying, and remember, even if you end up taking this job, you can still leave it at a later date for another position.

    • Another anon

      Don’t take the job. It’s not worth it. Indicate on your resume that you received an offer to return to the firm. If interviewers ask you why you didn’t, say it was because you didn’t want to live in that town and don’t badmouth the firm at all.

    • MLB

      Based on your review of the job, I can’t imagine why you would take it. Is it too late to apply for a clerkship? I’d say even a state court clerkship would be better than the job you’ve just described and help you get some contacts in whatever city you want to settle in.

      • stc

        Wait, didn’t OP say she’s a 3L, not a grad? I’ve been amazed at the amount of jobs and clerkships that didn’t come available until spring of my 3L year. I think she can safely decline and search if she is still in school.

          • Taylor

            I quit my first job at a firm with nothing to go to. I was willing to waitress until something better came along. Seriously, it may be better to take a non-legal job than to work there.

    • TK1

      Don’t take the job. Nothing is worse than having to get up and go to a place that makes you miserable every day. A job in a terrible environment is one of the quickest ways down the depression slide. You can’t avoid it, you have to be there every day and you’ll spend more time there than anywhere else. I’d have root canal every day first before I work somewhere I can’t stand. No job is perfect, but there are many, many red flags at this one. Good luck and I hope you find something better!

    • ChickintheStix

      Oh, please, please do not take the job. I’m 8 years out and still scarred by my first year of work at just this type of firm for a man I still refer to as “Awful Man.” The first year out is really tough, even for those of us who do well in school. There’s plenty–PLENTY–to keep you up at night in the first years of practice. An awful boss or firm does not help you in any way–except that you forever make career subsequent career decisions thinking “anything has got to be better.” Not the best way to steer a career. Wishing you the very best of luck!

  18. PJB

    Aloha, all. I want to commend that gray Brooks Brothers suit that Kat featured last week. I ordered it online and received it in two days. It’s beautiful; well-cut, clean lines, great fabric. I wore it to court yesterday with a white silk t-shirt, gold accessories and black high heel pumps, and received beaucoup compliments.

    The jacket was a tad tight around the bosom. I’m an ordinary 34C (vs. a bursting out of the cups 34C), and I think if your bosoms are D and above you should probably go a size higher for the jacket. Oh, and I’m 5’6″ and the skirt came to the top of my knees.

  19. Biglaw Refugee

    A while back some of us were discussing Latisse. I have been using it for about 3 months now, and wanted to give y’all a quick review and some facts that might be relevant if you are on the fence about doing it.

    How it works: I got an Rx from my eye doctor at my regular annual visit. She confided that everyone in her office uses it, and that now that she is using it, she doesn’t need to wear mascara anymore. She seemed to think it was no big deal. If you are concerned about costs, I suggest that before you go to your appointment, you decide where you will get Latisse – on Drugstore.com, you can get a discount if you order multiple months’ supply at once. You may want to ask for two prescriptions: one for one months’ supply each that you can fill at your local pharmacy, and one for more months’ supply that you can fill at an online drugstore. Be sure to factor in shipping costs in making this decision.

    Latisse comes in a box with a small vial of the drug and a bunch of little applicator brushes. The purpose of the individual brushes is to avoid letting bacteria build up on it that could give you an eye infection.

    You are supposed to use one applicator per eye per night: squeeze a drop out of the bottle onto the applicator, then run the applicator over your eyelid as if you were applying liquid eyeliner. I read on the web that others had success using one applicator for BOTH eyes per night, without adding another drop of the drug. I decided to try that – boom, I just cut my monthly cost in half.

    It really does take about 4-6 weeks before you see any results, and 8 weeks before you see full results. They recommend that once your eyelashes look the way you want them to, you cut down on your application. I’ve been very erratic about using it for the past few weeks, and so far I am still happy with my eyelash length. So assuming I continue, I expect that my ongoing monthly cost will be more like $25 than the $120 that is advertised (only apply every other night or even every third night, order from Drugstore.com for $300 / 3 “month” supplies that will last me 4 months each, and use one applicator/drop for both eyes).

    Safety: you have all read the horror stories about it changing your eye color. I have two comments, one based on personal experience and one based on logic. First, both my eye doctor and the safety inserts tell me that this phenomenon has ONLY been reported in people putting the stuff IN their eyes to treat glaucoma. Yes, it’s a drug, and all drugs can have side effects, but I don’t think there’s a reason to panic just because this drug has caused a peculiar side effect when used in a different way. Second, drugs are not really that different from cosmetics – they are both just a bunch of chemicals that companies put together in a lab until, through trial and error, they find one that does something we like. The difference is that drugs go through clinical trials and their side effect profiles are reviewed by the FDA, while cosmetics have no such safety review. Given what I understand is a fairly high incidence of pinkeye and more significant eye infections as a result of re-using cosmetic applicators, my guess is that using Latisse is actually safer than using eyeliner or mascara with the built-in brushes.

    I personally had no problems – the skin was maybe a little itchy for the first few days, but not significantly so. My eyes have seemed a bit dry lately, but they were dry before I started using Latisse (from Lasik surgery a couple of years ago – which I do NOT recommend) so if there is any effect there, it’s just a marginal increase in the dryness.

    The results: my lashes are definitely much longer, and maybe somewhat darker or fuller; I’m not sure about the latter. Unfortunately, I didn’t take before pictures so I can’t evaluate precisely. The effect is significant enough that when I showed up at a party wearing mascara on my lashes, an observant friend commented on how great they looked, and when I told her I was using Latisse she said, “it’s really dramatic.”

    On the other hand, I don’t feel that my lashes appear significantly fuller – just longer. To me, it actually looks a little weird – I still need to wear mascara in order for them to be noticeable, and when I do, I feel like the lashes clump into little spikes and there is kind of an obvious space between them. It’s not exactly what I was going for. Perhaps over additional months my lashes will get fuller, or maybe I just need to find a better mascara. I think I will keep using it for a couple more months, and then see how I feel.

    Also, my web reading and personal experience suggest that the length may be uneven and not where you want it – I’d like to have the longest lashes on the outside corner of my eye, but it seems like the middle part has seen the most growth. I have read that some people trim their Latisse lashes, and I have been considering doing that, since they are certainly plenty long now and I’m not sure when they will stop growing!

    • Makeup Junkie

      I’ve been using Revitalash, and after about a month I have to curl my lashes so the top and bottom lashes don’t tangle up. The long lashes make me look a lot younger! A must-have purchase.

    • DH

      Thank you for the details – since seeing the commercials, I had been curious about actual results.

      That said, could you please elaborate on why you would not recommend Lasik? I’ve been considering it for awhile now, and would appreciate knowing more!

      • Biglaw Refugee

        Sure. One major reason is that you only have so much corneal thickness, and thinning it now for Lasik may limit your ability to have eye surgery later (in your 60s+) when people start to have problems like macular degeneration. I didn’t know about this until after the surgery, and it’s something I wish I had known.

        The other is that I believe that the “halo” and “starburst” visual effects are more common and long-lasting than is typically reported. Search for this on the internet – you can find pictures that will give you an idea what things look like when you have this effect. It’s not the end of the world, but it’s quite annoying.

        I went to a very expensive, highly-respected doctor who had done many, many of these surgeries, so this was not a problem with unskilled surgery. I suspect that it happens a lot, but if you can see the distance letters on the chart (I now have 20/15 vision, but I have to squint at the eye chart to read it because of the halo effect) the doctor doesn’t even note the side effect on your chart, let alone report it. They consider the surgery a complete success because you can read the letters. So, when you see statistics that suggest these side effects are very rare, I think those statistics are significantly undercounting.

        Some people with these effects stop driving because it is difficult to see when there is a lot of contrast (bright sun against shade, or headlights in the dark). I don’t normally drive, so I haven’t really tested this yet, but I definitely would be nervous driving at night. It’s also just annoying – there are times when I can’t see someone’s face because they’re against a bright window, and it can be hard to read the letters on a move screen, etc.

        They spin these as temporary effects, and perhaps for some they are, but not for me. Dryness, which they also spin as a temporary effect, did get a lot better after about 12 months, but I still need to use artificial tears on an almost daily basis, 2.5 years later.

        If having to wear contacts really bugs you, and/or if you can find a well-respected surgeon with a lot of surgeries under his belt who will also offer you a reasonable price, it may be worth these downsides. I personally probably wouldn’t have done it (at least at the high price I paid) if I’d realized there was a significant chance of having the side effects.

        Do a little internet research and you’ll find sites with horror stories (which you can avoid by choosing someone experienced) and discussion of my theory about underreported side effects. If you get a consultation, ask them both about your corneal thickness and about the size of your dilated pupils. My doctor didn’t mention the latter in my consultation, and apparently there is some evidence that it is relevant to whether you will have the haloes. Also consider your age – if you are very young and your eyes are stabilized, there is more upside. I’m close enough to when people start getting farsighted that I will only get 5-10 years of “perfect” vision, but it appears that the side effects will be with me for life. If you’re 22 (with stable vision), you could get more like 25-30 years of perfect vision.

        On the plus side, the surgery itself is no big deal at all – if you are used to touching your eyes to put in and take out your contacts, it will be a piece of cake. I was nervous about it, but it was totally fine. And not having to wear contacts is certainly nice.

        • DH

          Thank you for all of that information; I really appreciate it! I am young (25), but one of my eyes keeps changing. The dryness also really worries me, as allergies already cause an imbalance in my levels of eye-moisture.

          I will definitely take your advice, Biglaw Refugee, and keep researching!

        • Amy

          I was scheduled to have Lasik a year or so ago and backed out of it for all the reasons Biglaw Refugee listed. I know a couple of people who have had Lasik and one can’t drive at night because of the halo effect in his eyes; the other has had to have a “follow up” surgery and may have to have another because of ongoing problems with her focusing ability, which is actually not uncommon. The eye surgeon also told me I would probably still have to have reading glasses in a few years. If I will have to have readers anyway, I would rather not undergo the surgery and associated risks. I also have a lot of problems with dry eyes during allergy season, and generally people with dry eye problems have more problems with Lasik, because you lose a lot of natural ability to lubricate your eyes. That all being said, I do know people who have had it and think it was the greatest thing ever. But all things considered, it wasn’t for me.

          And p.s. Biglaw Refugee – thanks for the info about Latisse. I am planning on asking for a prescription the next time I’m at the doctor, because I have really skimpy lashes. Any improvement would be welcome :)

        • Ru

          This was really great information, thank you. I was considering it but I’m kind of terrified. Will definitely do more research.

          • East Coast Sunshine

            I had laser PRK done 4 years ago (at 19), and I couldn’t be more thrilled with my results. The only side effect I have experienced is dry eye- which I may have had before and didn’t know because I always had glasses on. Ask about LASIK and LASEK systems that surgery centers use, and if you’d be a more viable candidate for LASIK/LASEK or laser PRK if you elected to have refractive surgery. I was blessed that my ophthalmologist was one of the leading refractive surgeons in Florida- it made my decision very easy, and my anxiety very low.

  20. Sarah J.

    Speaking way up-thread about crocs/uggs, I have decided it is time for me to never wear uggs in public again, and I’m looking for a replacement now that fall and winter are on their way. The things I liked about uggs were being able to walk through 5 or 6 inches of snow in them without getting my ankles wet, and the fact that they are shearling on the inside. I didn’t like how enormous and clunky they are.

    Any recommendations for comfortable, flat, shearling-lined boots that are not clunky? My first thought was to look for something equestrian inspired. Then, I started looking at ll bean’s bean boots that are shearling lined which are also an option. Do any of you have bean boots? Are they comfortable for standing and walking? Any other recommendations?

    (Of course these would not be worn *in* an office… don’t want to give anyone a heart attack.)

  21. Panicked

    Another ‘help, I need career advice’ post. Help! For starters, I am a regular commenter here but I can’t put these details out under my regular moniker. But you all are so insightful and supportive, I really want to get your input. Thanks in advance.

    Here’s the situation. Long, but please bear with. I bounced around Biglaw for ~15 years, made partner, satellite office I was in cratered so I left 8 years ago for midlaw (statewide general practice firm). I’m a litigator, but once did a stint in house doing RE transactions. A lot of my litigation experience has been appellate which I love and have had great success with, and I also have a fair amount of experience with a regulated industry, let’s call it aviation. I don’t have a ‘book of business’ and at this stage, I’m unlikely to get one. I do well with maintaining/expanding relationships with corporate clients, but we all know what that is worth.

    Midlaw is ok, but not great. For the first five years, I basically scratched for work. Then for personal reasons, I moved to satellite office of Midlaw, in a ‘secondary’ city, let’s call it Springfield (to Chicago). For the last two plus years, I have been almost exclusively dedicated to one client that is a publically traded ‘aviation’ company – basically serving as outside gen counsel, which is to say I haven’t been to court or done any meaningful ‘lawyering’ type work for nearly three years. I have busted my *ss doing what I do for Dominant Client and I’ve gotten a lot more experience in ‘aviation.’ I like the work and I like the people. Here’s the crisis: Dominant Client just (like two weeks ago) underwent a radical management change, one outcome of which – cutting to the chase – is that my firm is about to be out of the picture, completely and very, very soon, and for reasons relating to the management change, there is NO chance that I have any future opportunities with Dominant Client. Which means I have nada to do – and there are about 10 other lawyers in my firm who will be in the same boat. Needless to say, not a good thing.

    Here’s my dilemma and what I need your thoughts on. This probably marks the end of my employment at Midlaw by year end if not before and, particularly given the overall economy and state of affairs in Lawland, I am not particularly marketable to other Midlaw around town (or even to little law) since I am ‘old’ and don’t have portable business. DH is a lawyer too, very successful, and he basically says ‘figure out what you want to do and do it – we’ll be fine if you make a third of what you do in Midlaw’ (and since I have kids who are young, just quitting is not an option). I’m so burned out from Midlaw politics/survival bs and all the drama of Dominant Client (like I said, I like the people/work, but they are DEMANDING and super fast paced and the ‘planes’ are frequently about to crash) that I have toyed with ‘go back to school and become a psychologist’ but realistically that seems kind of harebrained and not really likely to work.

    So, I’d like to figure out career clerk possibilities (does anyone know if there really are such things and if you know any specific experiences please share), possibly an in house job (there are a few midsize cos around town with legal depts – probably a long shot but…), or *possibly* (I am afraid of this option but must consider it) going solo, sort of as an ‘independent contract’ lawyer who can read/write for little law firms that don’t want to commit to having a midlevel associate (read: competent, self sufficient ‘backroom’ lawyer) on the payroll, but would pay say $85/hr or ‘project based’ fee to an independent.

    Thanks for reading this whole saga and thanks for whatever insight, suggestions, encouragement my my wonderful Corporettes can offer.

    • Attnygrl

      Good luck to you. Lots of decisions & options! I worked doing research/writing for firms and a public entity for years while my kids were young. $ is not great but it’s something and gives you incredible flexibility.

      Also–what about a boutique appellate practice firm? You know if you do appellate in one thing it’s manageable to learn it in other areas. Plus, because of the nature of the work, you could expand outside your geo area.

      • Panicked

        Thanks.

        Can you share at all how you ‘set up’ doing research/writing for firms/public entity? Frankly, that appeals to me a lot, probably for many of the reasons it worked for you, and the $ doesn’t have to be great.

        A boutique appellate firm also could be ideal…I (perhaps unnecessarily/incorrectly) am assuming that they (there are maybe two or three in my town) would not be that interested in ‘old’ since there’s such a glut of fresh faced, editor in chief of law review at top tier law school recent grads running around (btw, my academic pedigree is, um, lackluster – I went to a relatively crummy law school – obviously it hasn’t ‘hurt’ me yet, but I’m no paper match for Harvard law review, class of 09, you know?).

        • a lawyer

          Hi, Panicked, I am guessing that I am about your same age and have had some of your feelings: Although I think my job is relatively stable, I do not really have much of my own book of business and wish I had done more to cultivate that over the years. I do almost entirely plaintiff work and somewhat rely on the two rainmakers in the firm for business. Now that younger relatives of the rainmakers have joined the firm, that is less reliable. I stay busy but not always on the greatest cases, which do not really do much for career advancement.
          Also, I’m the only female, which has never been easy.

          I’ve considered the option of contract work either out of my house or in a one-person (no secretary) ofice, and I do know two attorneys who have successfully done this. Depending on your income needs, which do not seem too much of a problem, I believe that this is a good option. It has the advantage of being able to control your work, working when you want, and of being non-capital intensive. You could probably also handle smaller matters like wills, appointments to guardianships, and the like without having to have an assistant.

          On the negative, there is little people-contact, which could be depressing at times. More to the economic point, most law firms I know now are trying to cut expenses and may be more inclined to keep brief-writing, appellate work, and the like in-house, even if they get less than excellent work in-house.

          A boutique firm sounds like it could be an excellent choice, but like other firms, they may not be hiring.

          As for permanent clerkships, at least at the federal level, I think they are hard to come by,and very often go to the temporary clerks who move up to the permanent position. That’s not always the case, as I have an acquaintance who just moved into a permanent clerk position for a U.S. Magistrate.

          A very good friend was recently left in a similar position, and wound up working for state government. She seems very happy. Many state agencies hire attorneys, not just the Attorney General–Dept. of Environmental Quality, Ethics Commission, Dept. of Transportation.

          Good luck, I am sure that this will work out well for you, whichever way you go.

    • Louise

      Can you say more about why you think going back to school to pursue a degree in another field is “harebrained”?

      • Panicked

        Thanks Louise. “Harebrained” might be too strong a word, I guess. But here’s why I think going back to school might not be a good plan. Whatever I would do (let’s say psychology => LCSW) would require at least another 2 years of school/master’s degree type undertaking. The expense of school and the time off would not be prohibitive but it is certainly not inconsequential, and I’d be foregoing retirement savings during that time. Then I would be a few years on the north side of fifty when school is done and would be starting at the entry level, both jobwise and payscale, and I’d probably only realistically be looking at ~12-15 years of work til retirement. So it just seems kind of daunting and maybe not ‘productive’ or cost efficient (time and money). I guess if I were ten years younger, it would seem like a more realistic alternative (but of course when I WAS ten years younger, it wasn’t an alternative at all b/c I was singlehandedly supporting a family of five). I dunno…any insight with that information? Thanks again, I so appreciate the opportunity to hash through this with women who’ve made *big* decisions (and I know from your blog that you have).

        • Louise

          If your reasons for going back to school are strictly economic, then I agree that adding an LCSW to your law degree probably only represents lost opportunity now (both in terms of postponing retirement savings and paying tuition).

          But sometimes, the “harebrained” things that pop into our heads or out of our mouths during a time of crisis/turmoil are really dreams that are daring to re-emerge. Okay, that sounds a bit woo-woo, but is there any chance that part of you might be admitting that what you really want to do is be a therapist rather than a lawyer? No shame in that, and if true, age is irrelevant.

          Your husband perhaps hinted at this: “figure out what you want to do and do it.” Is he hearing that you don’t really want to do law anymore? Are the things that seem like barriers now (haven’t been to court in a long time, latest experience all in one industry, tired of the “drama”) really what’s bugging you? Or are they socially accepted gripes for why you aren’t really satisfied?

          Career momentum is a powerful force. And to be blunt, so is career snobbery. When I quit engineering to go into publishing, my technical peers made no bones about the fact they thought I was taking a step down. More than one person said to my face that I no longer had “real” job. We really internalize these things. Years of education, training, striving and (yes) self-congratulations that we are in a field that is challenging and exclusive can blind us to other options that are just as valid and perhaps more rewarding for us at this stage of life.

          I’m not saying this is happening to you, just offering another perspective and perhaps some questions to ask yourself. Having a supportive spouse is so great. Whatever direction you choose, I wish you all the best. Success takes many forms.

          • AD

            Great advice in general, Louise. I absolutely agree that it is difficult to see a career path beyond adding responsibility, prestige, and yes, money to our current job for most of us.

          • Lobbyist

            I have a couple friends who are career clerks for judges. A good job. Not huge pay but flexible hours and very predictable. One leaves at 3 to pick up her kids and if necessary, works more at home. Also look at in-house jobs, and/or if you are interested in politics, in policy or lobbying jobs??

          • Kryss

            FYI: psych =/= LCSW. LCSW = Licensed Clinical Social Worker. To obtain an LCSW, you must obtain an MSW (Master’s of Social Work) and then work with supervision for 2-3 yrs (depending on the state), as well as passing 1-2 board exams.

            Just wanted to clarify :)

            That said, there are MSW programs that are accelerated and can be completed in a shorter amount of time or longer as a part-time student and the work of a Social Worker is quite fulfilling for many.

            perhaps you should check out socialworkchat.org where there are message boards and twice weekly live chats where you could ask questions about the career and read up on life experiences. :)

        • Chicago K

          RE: Concern about only 12-15 years of work before retirement.

          I had a teacher who actually went back and got his Masters in Pastoral Counseling when he was retired. He picks up a few hours a week doing marital couples therapy for a Catholic not for profit. He also teaches as a retirement job after a career spent in IT – so totally different direction.

          I don’t know your retirement plans, but I know that a lot of people do want to continue to work a few hours a week in order to have a something to do, extra income, etc. If you wish to do this, it may fit perfectly for you as it’s a career you can do part time.

          Something to think of…

    • happyness

      if your state bar allows you to take court appointed appellate cases (some do, some don’t), take those. If you love appellate and you have good connections from being a litigator, then you might consider opening your own appellate boutique. The first cases might be overflow from legal services, or referrals from trial tigers who don’t want to handle their own appeals. And blog, talk, write, market yourself and your practice. If it doesn’t work after 2 years, there is ZERO shame in returning to small, eensy or mid-law or looking at career clerk possibilities. Just my 2 cents- I think more women lawyers should consider flying solo.

      • Biglaw Refugee

        I agree with this. I’m confused about how it could really make sense financially for you to take a job paying 1/3 of what you make now – would that really cover your child care, commuting and clothing/dry cleaning costs?

        It seems like going solo is the best option because you could work from home, so those costs of working would be lower, at least until you start getting a meaningful amount of business and needing to wear suits and run around for court/meetings. In NYC, the local bar association has a building where you can (I believe – I’ve never done it) use a law library and rent conference rooms if you need them for meetings. You could see if yours has a similar option to supplement your facilities at home.

        You could supplement your “solo firm” appellate work with spot research and writing assignments. I’d think the best way to get those would be to contact people you know at firms and ask them to refer you to people they know. Having a website is probably also a good idea, and they’re not that hard to set up – I’m sure there’s a “for dummies” book or something you can pick up.

        You could also try joining one of the several virtual law firms that have cropped up; I don’t know how hard it is to get those jobs, though.

        Career clerkships are also possible; when I clerked for a federal appeals court judge, one of the judges down the hall had a career clerk. My guess is that those positions are quite hard to get right now, though, given the economy.

        • Another Laura

          Another idea is something that an attorney friend of mine does…she rents space from a firm that has an extra office. You can share the waiting room, conference room and use their library or whatever you negotiate. It can be a win-win.

    • anon

      This could be me in 5-6 years, if things don’t work out as I hope. I think it’s very tough. I personally wouldn’t have the guts to go out on my own if I wasn’t already a person who had clients in the bag, which it sounds like you don’t. I think there are a bunch of other types of options you aren’t considering, if it is really okay with you to make 1/3 of what I’m guessing you made in Midlaw in “Springfield”. There are lots of govt jobs — counsel for the city you live in or the large city you live near, teaching legal writing or a clinic in a local law school, in-house at a smaller company (I know you mentioned this). I think one of the problems with lawyers (me included) is that we tend to be somewhat conventional people who feel most comfortable when we tread well-worn paths. I can’t tell you what the new and different paths are, exactly, but I bet they are out there if you look.

      Good luck!

      • Panicked

        Thanks everyone for the suggestions and advice. I did some poking around today and found…one possible lead (in house @ local u). Now I am really soul searching w/Louise’s insight, which was very helpful.

        One of the more challenging parts of this is that I feel like, well, a failure after 2+ decades in Biglaw/Midlaw. I mean, the whole standard of success at this stage is having the ‘book’ and I don’t even have a magazine page, even though I have loads of bigtime experience, a pretty good track record re succes, and I am overall a good lawyer – I am a really good reader/writer/analyzer, I am a good pragmatic and I’m pretty good on my feet. I keep thinking about that poor guy that was let go by Biglaw in DC (because he didn’t have a ‘book’ even though he had successfully argued like 15 case in US Sup Ct), and then he shot himself right there in the office (ATL was ALL OVER it for awhile). I certainly don’t have any tendencies in THAT regard, but it points up what I think is just a horrible part of law. Even if you are a REALLY good lawyer, you don’t got a thing if you don’t got the ‘swing’ (the book). And most of the people my age who do have the ‘swing’ in this biz are NOT women. Why is that and when/how does it change?

        OK, rant over, and thanks again for all the insight and suggestions – I am happy to get more if anybody is hanging out here tonight :).

        • atty

          I agree re: how important it is to have a “book” to be considered successful in Biglaw/Midlaw now. Unfortunately, it’s not all about being an excellent practitioner (oh how nice that would be!). That is the main reason why I don’t think staying at a law firm is part of the long-term career plan for me.

        • SD

          Just wanted to note about being in-house at a uni – sometimes they’ll allow employees to take classes for free or at reduced rates. It might be an opportunity for you to take some psych classes, if that’s something that you’d really enjoy. Not a bad job perk, really.

          Best wishes, whatever you decide!

          (Also, not a lawyer, so if “u” stands for something else, sorry!)

          • Panicked

            Hey, good point SD – I hadn’t even thought about that, and it could work well a couple of different ways. Thanks!

            And thanks again to everyone for support, commiz and encouragement. I am not sure I ‘feel better’ yet (it’s gonna be a while on that, I’m afraid), but at least I feel more informed and not so ‘alone’ in my little maelstrom :-/.

        • Biglaw Refugee

          I know exactly what you mean. I’m 10 years out, and not only did I not have a “book of business” when I was at my firm, but I can’t imagine how I could have developed one, given my specialty and the hours I had to work. Everyone envies those of us who get BigLaw jobs because the entry level pay is great compared to entry level in other jobs, but what they don’t realize is how, unless you can develop a book of business, you can easily end up scrambling to find low-paying jobs at just the point where the careers of people in other fields are really taking off. I have seen this happen to several people.

          I probably could have stayed at my BigLaw job a while longer, but I knew that I’d have no job security, because although I was *great* at my job, there would be mid- and senior-level associates who could do a pretty good job at a much lower billing rate. So unless I could develop a book of business, I might get laid off in the next recession.

          So, ended up taking a gov’t job that pays a fraction of what I made in BigLaw. I am basically doing the same job that people with only 3 years’ experience do, so I kind of feel like a failure also. On the other hand, so far I like what I’m doing a lot. :)

          I do think that men are better at “business development,” partly because there are more men clients who feel more comfortable with men, and partly because men in general tend to be better at self-promotion. I also think that men are somewhat more likely to be taken under the wing of the guys who have huge books of business, and so the men who are more like us (technically skilled, not good at bus development) are more likely to have a comfortable career path of 10-15 years doing X type of work with Y big-name partner, at which point they are kept on in their firm as the “X expert.”

          • a lawyer

            Just to comment on Biglaw Refugee’s feelings “like a failure.” DON’T. It sounds to me like you have an excellent choice, have excellent job security and benefits, including retirement, and probably have good advancement opportunities–many of which are missing from ANY private law sector.
            Wishing I had thought more about that option a few years back—although I am very small law firm.

    • D

      No real advice to offer, but two thoughts, for my own selfish purposes –

      If you really are that good at the writing/research, PLEASE do me a favor and go teach legal writing at your nearest Law School, like, RIGHT NOW. As a 2L, I have to say the worst part of my law school experience so far has been that my legal writing proff SUCKED and I felt like I had to reinvent the wheel to teach myself how to do basic stuff. Many others are in the same boat because, well, many crappy lawyers end up teaching legal writing on the side. So we need you. And who knows, maybe you’ll end up loving teaching :)

      Second, please keep us updated in upcoming weekend threads about what you decide and how it works out! I wish you all the best :)

      • Another Laura

        My sister-in-law (a lawyer) has a classmate who started teaching when her children were young and is now a full-time professor. I’m in corporate finance and teach as an adjunct and I LOVE it. However, teaching as an adjunct at regular universities is a low-pay proposition. Perhaps law schools are different. But if you can get a full-time and/or tenure-track position after a few years, it is a great, fulfilling career.

        Add me to the list of people wishing you success and please let u know how it goes.

        • JessC

          When I was in law school, I spent a few semester as a teaching assistant to adjunct profs teaching trial advocacy. At least at my law school, adjuncts do get paid a pittance compared to full-time faculty. But have you looked into teaching at a local law school or university? It’s definitely not for everybody, but maybe it’s worth looking into?
          And, as a side note, I totally agree with D. My law school has been consistently ranked as having one of the best R&W programs, so maybe I’m spoiled, but I get the impression from reading stuff from fellow young lawyers and interns that there is something seriously lacking in that part of their legal education.

      • Panicked

        How nice of you! That may be an option…and I might just like it :). In the meantime, here is a summary of the most important things I learned early on (not in law school, cuz I also had crappy legal writing instructors, but from a true, Clarence Darrow type, gray haired lawyer among lawyers, God rest his soul, who for like two years did line by line editing with me) re legal writing: mercilessly edit your written work and do whatever it takes to say it in fewer, simpler words (ie, the opposite of my preceding sentence). Almost always use the active, not passive, voice (eg, “client learned…”, not “it was learned by client that…”) . Get a copy of Strunk & White The Elements of Style, and read and USE it. Make punctuation work for you, and don’t be afraid of a judicious and very occasional turn of phrase – it keeps the piece vivid and compelling, and since so much of what we write about is dry as bones, you want to have a ‘hook’ every now and then (especially on an ‘elusive’ point). Don’t dilute your arguments or discussion with tangential, transparent or unsupportable arguments – concede weakness where you should ; hammer on strong points and what is right/reasonable/supportable, explain – in simple terms why they are so. Finally, keep your sentences to no more than a couple of lines and your paragraphs ALWAYS fewer than five sentences. I know these are very general ‘rules’, but they really help (in everything from the shortest client correspondence to the most complex brief), I swear.

        • PJB

          Also . . . Consider corp counsel (city), state a.g., prosecutor’s office appellate division, or federal government litigation or other federal legal (or non-legal) work. Government agencies are not allowed to discriminate based on age. I have a friend in her 50s who made a lateral move to our state a.g., same area she had been working in private practice. Less money of course, but great hours and she is very satisfied. The fact that you don’t have a “book” is irrelevant in government work, and that fact that you can litigate and write appeals is attractive.

          In addition, at least in our state, you can sign up for five types of court appointments: guardianship, foreclosure, state appellate, family court, public defender conflict. Frankly, they don’t give a damn if you have experience in the particular area, the fact that you are an experienced lawyer is a plus. All you need for this work is a telephone, computer and printer.

          Good luck to you. Interesting times ahead.

          On a side note, I do have an MSW and went to law because my job was so depressing (child protective service and domestic violence.)

          • PJB

            Clarification on “government agencies are not allowed to discriminate based on age.” Duh. What I mean is that they differ from private practice in that the anti-discrimination laws are usually actually respected.

            Also, Panicked, your answers to commentators have been really responsive and sweet.

          • Panicked

            Thanks PJB! The information about your friend in her 50’s is encouraging – that is one the big ‘fears’ I have here, is that I am just *too old* to be considered by most employers, and I was kind of wondering if the gov’t has a different playing field re ‘aged’ applicants.

            I also appreciate your insight on the MSW…not really seriously considering that as an option, really using it as a ‘generic’ descriptor for full blown career change. I do think child protection and domestic violence would probably be more than I could bear. I was more thinking (pipe dreaming) of a nice private psychology practice like Meryl Streep in Prime – I would get to be Meryl (except without the high school art teacher necklaces and my patient dating my son or boyfriend or whatever), and would listen attentively to interesting clients like Uma who want to work through non-life threatening problems in a cozy office surrounded by beautiful decor. In other words, a total daydream having nothing to do w/reality :)!

            And thanks again to everyone for all the suggestions and support. I love my Corporette friends! BigLaw Refugee, I am so happy to hear that you saw ‘this’ coming and got out – good for you!

            This too shall pass, I have much to be thankful for and really am trying to regain perspective. I think once it shakes out a little more, I will be making less money for less hours and that will be a great thing b/c my kids (who have been largely raised by nannies up til now) are at the ages where they really need ME and more of me than I’ve been able to give. So, after all the turmoil, I am convinced that I will be where I am supposed to and the ultimate outcome is what is ‘meant to be.’

          • anon

            Panicked – can I make just one suggestion? I don’t know you or your situation, but I’m guessing that your kids were not, in fact, largely raised by nannies until this point. I am a full-time lawyer, and I am confident that my kids are raised by my husband and by me, with the valuable assistance of lots of wonderful people, including nannies, teachers, neighbors, friends and grandparents. Don’t sell your parenting (or your lawyering) short.

        • Someone

          Wow, that does sound great! Panicked, can you teach me legal writing like someone taught you? :)

    • mew

      Have you considered government work with an agency that works with avaition or related-type regs? I ask because although it would probably be a pay cut, with young children you might find you get more regular/flexible hours. And at least in my field it’s pretty common for lawyers to bounce from private practice to government or vice versa.

  22. Amy

    Someone on Corporette recommended Target dress pants a few weeks ago – I had never looked at them because I assumed they would be too cheaply constructed to work for me. But, last night I was in Target and they had two pairs in my size for $14 each – I bought both (clearance stuff at Target goes fast in my neighborhood) and went home to try them on – they are great! They have reinforced seaming on the inside and the pocket placement, fit, etc. are all really good, for such inexpensive pants. I don’t like them as much as, say, the Dana Buchman wool pants I got at Saks a couple of years ago, but on the other hand, these also don’t have to be dry-cleaned. I have days where I have to go from the office to some pre-schooler activity and these Target pants will be great for those days, and I won’t have to worry about ruining my more-expensive pants. Great suggestion!

    • mille

      That may have been me….I am a size 22w and LOVE my target pants. I was surprised to find something that worked for me–usually cheaper pants pull in the wrong places, or don’t hang right, but these work. I get my undershirts at Target but don’t find their regular shirts or blouses to be very well made.

      I don’t work in an office where people wear really expensive clothes, so I can get by with Target.

  23. Eponine

    I just purchased a pair of “jeggings.” I am old enough to remember the first time they were popular (these ones, however, are dark and not acid wash). I am also not thin. Have I made a terrible mistake?

    • Anonother Anon

      Honestly, I think you might have. Sorry.

      But hey, what do I know. Just keep the receipt handy in case you change your mind.

      Cannot remember ANY cool outfits I wore in the 80s…

      • Eponine

        Haha, I often thank God that I went to a high school with uniforms so I didn’ thave the opportunity to wear any of the truly awful 80s trends. But these don’t look like the 80s jeggings except for their shape – no acid wash, no zippers on the side, no slouch socks.

    • Suze

      Hmmmm. I tend to agree that if we wore them the first time around, we can’t do it again. But…you never know. Do you have a full length mirror at home that doesn’t distort? And/or a *good* friend to honestly assess? You seem to have pretty good fashion sense and overall judgment…not that is a life threatening issue :), but trust your instincts/mirror/friend. And let us know how you shake out!

      • Anonymous

        I took photos. They make me look taller. I have nice legs. I really like them, I just don’t want to be a fashion victim, you know? They’re so comfy though and will look great with boots if fall ever arrives.

          • Suze

            I read all of the above and below and I think you are fine. I also am like a 10/12 (and like you, am ‘stumpified’ by flats, but do well with boots), and I now think I am going to have to look into jeggings for me :). Did you order from Loft online or go to the store?

          • Eponine

            @Suze – went to the store. I definitely wouldn’t order online. I’d have ordered the wrong size (I had to size down). They should fit skintight, and you should keep in mind that they’ll stretch out so they should really be beyond skintight when you try them on. I wore mine around the house for 2 hours and they stretched out to be totally comfy.

    • Amy

      I’d have to know what you are going to wear them with. Anything incredibly trendy may look a little weird. Remember the “mutton dressed as lamb” effect.

      Speaking of which, I got this book recently and I really, really love it: Style Evolution by Kendall Farr http://www.amazon.com/Style-Evolution-Create-Ageless-Personal/dp/1592404219

      I really loved the Pocket Stylist and this book is also good. It is aimed at women over 40, and I’m not there yet but I do want to “evolve” my style and feel like I don’t have to jump on every fashion bandwagon. This book repeats some info from Pocket Stylist but also has a lot of information about “if X is in style for teens and 20-year-olds, this is how you make it work if you’re older.” There is something ridiculous, to me, about a 40+-year-old woman wearing an outfit meant for a much younger woman, even if the 40-year-old still has a great body. I highly recommend it as a style guide; it’s the best one I’ve read in years.

      • Eponine

        Thanks. I normally do dress my age. That’s why the jeggings are so out of character for me. But they’re comfy and elongating. Also, jeans never fit right because I have narrow hips and it’s so nice that these actually fit.

        • anon - chi

          I say wear them! I was also hesitant about the trend, but I got two pairs that look virtually indistinguishable from dark wash jeans, and I find myself wearing them all the time because they are so comfy and tuck into tall boots nicely. As other commenters have suggested, the styling of them matters too – wearing them with flat tall boots and a tunic is very different from wearing them with strappy high heels!

    • CJ in CA

      The rest of the outfit matters. A belted tunic style top with tall boots Can be a look that I think can work, even on the older and rounder.

      I think you need some “interest” below the knee to balance out the look and boots will do that. I think flats will only work on the thinner. Try them out! Also, start looking at the people your size you see wearing them. I bet it’s more than you think!

      • Eponine

        Thanks! Yeah, I think flats would destroy the elongating look. I’m not that big (size 10 or 12) but I would look stumpy in flats. I need to get some tunics. I’ve been loving that they’re stylish now.

    • mille

      Jeggings look good with a long top– don’t show your behind in them. They are great for flats or ankle boots with a heel, and are very comfortable. I have skinny jeans that are probably really jeggings but I have no idea what the difference is, and I love them. I’m not skinny but they look good with longer tops, which I tend to wear.

      If we are stuck only wearing things that haven’t already been a fad a few times in our lives, we are in trouble. Fashion isn’t just for the young. I personally think skinny jeans/jeggins are cute.

      • Eponine

        Thanks! I needed the encouragement :). (And I agree about not showing my behind – I’m firmly in the leggings are not pants camp.)

      • EE

        I agree. I bought a pair of jeggings a couple months ago and love them. I’ve even worn them to work on casual Fridays with a tunic top and knee high boots (I work in-house with business casual everyday and casual Fridays, so definitely not for everyone!). I was originally very skeptical about the skinny jeans trend as I’ve lived through it before, but the darker wash this time around is much more flattering (and slimming).

    • ES

      I personally think there is a major difference between “jeggings” and the slim/skinny leg jeans/pants that are out. If you are concerned, maybe you could try one of the more structured slim leg or skinny jeans first and then if you like the look, move on to jeggings. My impression of jeggings is that they are supposed to be skin-tight, which would result in a lot of ugly clingy spots on me. A skinny leg jean might be a little more forgiving.

      • Eponine

        Oh, I have skinny jeans already. Love them.

        The jeggings I bought (from Loft) are definitely skin tight, but they’re made of the same fabric as jeans so they are thick enough not to show lumps and bumps.

    • Louise

      I’m a bit confused. The whole point of “jeggings” is that they are basically stretchy denim, right? As long as you cover your rear end, shouldn’t they just look like the legs of a pair of slim jeans? How than that possibly be inappropriate?

      The slimmest the jeans will get is the width of whatever part of your leg shows: knees or calves.

      Did I miss the memo that says there must be X inches of air between my knees and my jeans fabric because I’m almost 50 years old?

  24. Anonother Anon

    One more “career angst” question?

    Met someone who just graduated from MBA school who will be working in investment banking for crazy money this fall.

    Is this true or or an exageration? Maybe I took a wrong turn on my career path… Or maybe this jealousy + burn out is affecting me.

    • mille

      Jealousy and burn out. Most people who get MBA’s are not getting jobs, just like in law. A law degree will open a lot of doors and I doubt you will regret getting one. You can work in business with a law degree, or banking, almost anything.

    • Biglaw Refugee

      Investment bankers DO NOT SLEEP. If you care about ANYTHING except money, you do not want to be an investment banker.

        • Biglaw Refugee

          OK, well I am basing my opinion on the nights I spent at the printer with the investment bankers, so I can see where people get that idea. :) Only then I switched to litigation, where I could usually get a full night’s sleep most of the time.

          And maybe investment bankers do get to sleep when they get more senior. But it did not look to me like those first year investment bankers were having fun….

      • MJ

        Ex-banker here. I did not sleep. It was not worth any amount of money. I work in biglaw now, and only on a few mega-deals have I had such bad hours.

    • Another Sarah

      Every so often the New York Times will do an article on how over-valued having an MBA is now-a-days. According to the articles, now that everyone and your mother’s cat has an MBA, there’s no value to them. Granted, the NYT sometimes has these “panic” pieces, so I don’t know how true they are as all my MBA friends have jobs. (Not I-Bankers though-they are my friends, afterall :-) ).

      I remember seeing a FedEx or UPS commercial where a new worker starts and their secretary is explaining the package tracker system. The new worker is very obviously annoyed, and finally says, “Ok, I get it!! I mean, I have an MBA.” The secretary says, “Oooh, that makes sense! Ok then, let me SHOW you and I’ll slow down!” Makes me laugh :-D

    • Suze

      No, it’s gone – wth? You’re not crazy :). And, in getting back on this set of comments, I saw that Talbots is advertising something like ‘jeggings’ which might not be all bad for those of us to remember the prior iteration…check it out for some perspective if you haven’t already.

    • rocknroll

      First time post (and I’ve been lurking for almost two years!)

      Yes! I can’t find the Weekly News Update either and I really wanted to see everyone’s votes for classic bags!

      Eponine, re your jeggings dilemma– same boat here! haha Just wear a long top and you’ll be fine. =)

  26. S

    Apologies if this is a repeat, but – as soon as I got off the plane today to visit home, my mom commented on the JCrew “prism” bracelet I got earlier this summer. Her birthday’s in early September, so… good timing. It’s not on the website anymore, and I’m trying to remember (did a brief search of this site, to no avail) the name of an ebay-for-JCrew site I’ve vaguely heard of… basically, where people will resell JCrew things they’ve bought. Any hints?? Or, other suggestions? Thanks!

    • Anonymous

      There’s a site called J Crew Aficionada and the commenters there will probably be able to help you out.

  27. Kryss

    I know we’ve talked about work bags before, but I was hoping I could ask a more specific question…

    I’m a female who doesn’t carry a purse, never has, and isn’t really “girlie.” As a student, I always had a book-bag and lived in a place where I drove, so anything big or those “just in case” items could be kept in the car. Now, I’ve just graduated and am heading to the working world (interviews and new job means wanting to appear more professional and less recent student) and will be living in a city that’s subway-based, which means no car. As a person who has graduated mere weeks ago, the money is also tight (especially since I don’t know how long savings must last before there is a job and paycheck).

    Does anyone have any suggestions for a bag that’s basic enough to be super versatile, big enough to fit paperwork and “just in case” items and professional enough for interviews and a new job yet affordable? (If it makes a difference, I’m a smaller female, so super huge bags on wheels and such probably won’t work as well).

    Thank you so so much for any ideas you have, I’ve been searching ebay and elsewhere but it’s so overwhelming for someone who doesn’t enjoy shopping!

    • Eponine

      Is this an everyday bag or a nice bag? You probably need two. I’d get a simple messenger-style bag for every day. Timbuktu makes nice styles in fabric, or you can get a basic one by Kenneth Cole for around $100 on sale at a department store. You probably want a leather tote or briefcase to take to court and important meetings. Franklin and Covey makes pretty and affordable styles. Someone also recently posted a nice looking leather tote from LL Bean.

      If you’re still interviewing, you should probably get the leather tote first and bring it to interviews.

    • C

      Check out Levenger totes on ebay. Levenger makes very nice briefcases, folios, totes, but they are probably high-priced for someone just out of school. On ebay, you can find some that are returns or “lightly scratched,” or even brand new but just in the outlet store.

    • Another Sarah

      FWIW, my interview bag came from Target, and I have always received compliments on it (It’s not obviously from Target). It’s kind of an odd-but-classic shape (more bell-shaped) and leather with croc embossed on it. It fits everything – I’ve succeeded in transferring my entire bookbag into the bag and it still closes, looks very nice, etc. I’ve also found nice tote/computer bags at Kohl’s and TJMaxx/Ross/Marshall’s.

    • KZ

      If you’re on a budget, try target. They actually have some nice-looking bags, and I think anyone interviewing you understands you may not have the money for a super nice bag.. Also, I tend to find pretty good laptop bags at marshall’s at a fairly deep discount.

    • Ru

      I really like Fossil. Take a look at what they have on their website/Macy’s/ebay – very versatile stuff.

  28. Julie H.

    Kryss,
    I’m also looking for a work-appropriate bag (what a hunt that can turn out to be!). On the more reasonably priced end, I’ve found lots of selection at TJ Maxx & Burlington Coat Factory. I think the trick is to find something of real leather that’s not overly decorated (big buckles, fringe, etc.). Good luck!

    Wondered if anyone had ideas about what to wear in rain/snow? In my new job there’s a decent hike from parking lot to office & don’t want to ruin my great leather shoes. I picked up some waterproof ankle boots (conservative style) to wear in rain/snow but wondered if anyone else had other ideas? Those LL Bean style or Wellington boots won’t cut it for work! I’ve seen rubber ballet flats by Kate Spade, etc. but those won’t handle 6 inches of snow/slush…

    • Eponine

      You really have to change your boots when you get to the office. Wear the LL Bean or wellies until you get inside. There’s no solution that allows you to wear the same shoes inside and out in winter, sadly.

      LL Bean does have waterproof skimmers but they’re probably the same style as the Kate Spade ones you saw.

      • Julie H.

        Thanks, Eponine! So you think wearing wellies to the office is all right, as long as you change them? I had planned to change whatever I wore thru the snow/slush/rain but didn’t know how strict the ‘rules’ (of perception?) were re: looking professional from the car to the office. lol.

        • E

          When I lived in a very snowy area of the country, it was sort of expected that you would wear boots in and then change. If it is that slushy, I wouldn’t worry about it.

        • Eponine

          Yep, at least in DC there are women all over the street wearing rain or snow boots in inclement weather. All my coworkers just change in the office. I’d avoid, like, kittens and rainbow patterned boots in case you run into your boss in the elevator, but no one will blink if you’re wearing rain boots in the lobby or on the street.

          • Julie H.

            Great, thanks E & Eponine! I did get a pair of (nice quality) leather ankle boots (v. conservative) at a consignment store for $5…figured I could wear them when it was lightly raining, then change. I’m so trying to save the perfect leather pumps I spent months finding! lol. Good to know wellies, etc. are not out of the question for major snow/slush!

      • lawDJ

        For the days in which I can’t change my shoes when I get to the office and it’s raining outside, I wear waterproof leather boots by Merrell. If you’re not standing in the snow for long periods of time they can withstand LOTS of snow (if you stand for too long the moisture/water seeps in through the zipper). They look quite nice and can be worn under pants or with a skirt and are very professional (regular black ones). I recently bought another pair by another brand from 6pm on a sale that someone posted about here. Haven’t tested the waterproofness yet, but they look gorgeous and have a 2″ heel. Normally I would wear wellies and change, but sometimes that’s not an option.

    • ES

      i’ve been drooling over most of her shop since someone mentioned it on here. they are so pretty!

    • UnSub

      Beautiful bag at a great price. As soon as my shopping moratorium is over I’m buying it. Thanks!

  30. ST

    Hey ladies! I am taking a short break from studying to read Corporette. I am taking the Professional Engineer Exam in October. Whoever came up with the rules for this exam are cruel. An engineer must have 4 years of experience to qualify to take the test. At this point in my career and life, I have so many balls to juggle and keep in the air that setting aside the recommended 250+ hours of study time sounds impossible. Due to recent personnel changes, I usually work 10 hour days M-F, take review courses and study Saturday, and household chores and a few hours of studying on Sunday. To assist me with studying, my coworker has picked up an additional 10-20 hours a week at work, which I feel quite guilty about. I am EXHAUSTED! Any suggestions?

    • C

      After 10 hour days at the office, I know this is going to sound impossible, but it sounds as if your only way to get close to the 250 hours is to put in at least an hour every night–that would get you an extra 5 hours a week on top of maybe 10 on the weekends.
      Any way you could just take off work the last week or two before the exam? That would also help tremendously.
      I took the bar exam while clerking for a federal judge in a state different from the one I was working in–meaning I bought the bar review books and studied them nights and weekends beginning in May for the end of July exam. I was religious about spending pretty much at least one full weekend day on the studying . I took off work the last week before the exam and studied the entire week.
      Imagining that your exam is going to be much more difficult than the bar exam, if there is any way that you could even take a pay cut and work only 4 days a week for the next couple of months, that could also help. If not, just do the bset you can. I guarantee I studied MUCH less than the kids who spent six weeks full time on it, and I still passed!

    • Louise

      Kudos to you for tackling the PE exam! I was too intimidated by the amount of work to try. I tried to get my Masters in engineering while working full time and that proved to be too daunting, too. So I have GREAT respect for all of you who can juggle the job plus extra schooling/credentialing/bar etc.

    • E

      I just took the general surgery boards exams (cross your fingers, results aren’t back yet) finishing an 80 hour a week residency, starting a new attending job and juggling an under 2 year old. I usually work at least 10 hours a day. I felt really overwhelmed with the juggle. What worked for me was:

      1) Set a realistic time you’re going to study everynight and stick to it. Don’t say to yourself “oh tonight I’ll study til 11” even if you do it one night, you’ll be exhausted and burnt out and not be able to study for three days. I personally studied from 7:30 to 8:30 every night after my son went to bed, and then closed the books, put them away, and enjoyed spending time with my husband. Don’t feel like you have to study every minute. It’ll only stress you out.

      2) On Sunday, schedule everything, including when you are going to study and when you are going to do something totally 100% for yourself. If you don’t schedule a break, you’ll burn out.

      3) As the exam approaches, let the housekeeping go. Extra dust doesn’t kill anyone. Can you send you laundry to the cleaners to be washed, and more importantly, folded? Can you stock up on frozen food at Trader Joes? Take shortcuts.

      4) Don’t feel guilty about coworkers picking up slack. You’ll pay em back.

      5) Sleep.

      6) Ask your spouse to pick up some slack in the short term.

      It’s not easy, but it’s temporary.

      • Other K

        I think you are possibly my hero. (MS4 here, with mad respect, since I couldn’t function on my surgery rotation, let alone make it through five years like you have).

        Glad to see I am not the only medical professional who finds these boards soothing.

    • Eponine

      I worked while studying for a bar exam (us lawyer are lucky that the first time we take it normally it’s right after graduation, but if you move and have to get barred in your new state you have to take it again while working full time!). I did set aside study time every night and made sure my colleagues respected that (and it sounds like you’ve got great, supportive colleagues). I also took off two full weeks before the bar exam. Since I needed the license in order to practice law, my job gave me the time paid; you might have to use vacation or take unpaid leave. Still, it was well worth it to have that time off to dedicate to studying and to get enough sleep!

      Good luck! Also, when all this is over, buy your coworker a really nice thank-you gift.

    • Anonymous

      I’m also taking the PE this October. I don’t have any nuggets of wisdom, but I feel your pain!

    • Ru

      Good luck! I get to apply next year for the exam…can’t wait for that craziness.

  31. NY 3L

    I am a 3L preparing for a callback at BigLaw on Tuesday and all this advice has been SO helpful (and perfectly timed)! I had a question (I also posted on the Best Interview Advice thread) about a “reception.” The recruiting officer told me to arrive at 4:30 for a “reception” followed by interviews from 5 to 7pm. As my callbacks last year were all in the morning, I’m not sure what to expect. I’ll be wearing my “interview suit” but I’m not sure if other interviewees will be at this reception or what the nature of this will be in general. (Obviously I will stay on my best interviewing behavior but not sure what else to prepare for!)

    Any advice would be appreciated!

    • NYCAtty2

      Hard to say, but I would go there expecting other candidates to be there too. It could be a weekly cocktail hour that the firm holds on a regular basis, or it could be set up especially for call back season. Just be on your best interviewing behavior. And don’t go overboard on drinks, esp since your interviews are afterwards. Ideally, drink nothing, or get club soda and lime, but if you are offered a drink, accept it and just sip it slowly. This is also a good chance to see how the attorneys at the firm interact with each other and a nice way to scope out the firm’s “vibe” and culture. I went to a reception at a firm one time (not pre-interviews, but after having a screening interview at school), and the head of recruiting, after introducing herself to me, told me that I had my name tag on the wrong side of my suit. That made it really easy for me to cross that firm off of my list. So pay attention to the overall environment there – you are scoping them out as much as they are scoping you out.

      • Biglaw Refugee

        Haha…who knew there was a “right side” of your suit for your name tag? Puts some of my colleagues’ nitpicking in perspective….

        • a lawyer

          Ha, my sister (not a lawyer) taught me that the name tag should be on the right side, as it is sort like an extension of your hand-shake. I’m not making this up. I think most people put it on the left side b/c they are right handed and using their right hand to put it on–much easier to do right handed on the left side of the suit! Since being “educated,” I’ve noticed that probably 75 percent of people use the left side.

          • NicMarie29

            Agreed. I learned this very early in my consulting career. Definitely kinda silly, but I always make sure to have my name tag on the “right side” :)

          • NYCAtty2

            Yes, agreed that there is technically a “right” side. But I heard this person say it to more than one attendee, and quite a number of people there had it on the “wrong” side. It just seemed like an inappropriate thing to be pointing out so aggressively at that sort of event, and made me realize that if that is what went on after being there for 15 minutes, that I probably would not enjoy this firm’s culture.

          • nonA

            If the majority of people do it the “wrong way”, is it still the wrong way?

        • Eponine

          Supposedly you should put it on the right so that when you shake hands it’ll be directly in the other person’s line of vision. I didn’t think this was a rule, though, so much as a body language trick.

          • Leesa

            I had absolutely NO IDEA that you were supposed to put your name tag on the right side. Honestly, if someone had come up to me and said that I had my name tag on the right side I probably would have just stared at them with a confused look on my face!
            I always learn something new on Corporette. :)

          • Suze

            I’ve also heard the ‘rule’ of putting the tag on the right b/c that is where the person shaking your hand will automatically ‘look.’ BUT, depending on whether/how you have to deal with bag strap over your shoulder, hold drink, etc, sometimes it can be easier to put it on the left (ie, so bag strap doesn’t chafe it off). It’s probably a good general guideline, but I agree with NYC2 that putting the little snark about tag placement high on the ‘con’ list is right. I mean, if you get kind of picked on for THAT, before you are ‘in’ (and by the recruiting person, no less, who should really just be very NICE at that stage, IMHO), well, it doesn’t augur well for the future….

    • Anonymous

      I had the same thing once. It was basically a meet and greet and I was the only interviewee there; I think it was the firm’s weekly cocktail hour. The firm was mid-sized and valued “fit” and wanted to see how I interacted with people. I’d just say to be friendly and if there is alcoholo being served, make sure you have a drink of some sort in your hand even if you aren’t actively drinking it (personally I don’t handle alcohol well and wouldn’t have more than a few sips, or I might just get club soda with a twist). And if they’re serving non-alcoholic beverages or snacks, take a drink just so you aren’t the only one not eating/drinking, but maybe don’t take a snack in case you get something stuck in your teeth. Also, if there are non-attorney staff there, make sure you’re as friendly and polite to them as you’d be to an attorney. They may be evaluating you too.

    • Anonymous

      Aargh, I am having the most trouble posting comments today, I hope this doesn’t go twice…

      I had the same thing once. It was basically a meet and greet and I was the only interviewee there; I think it was the firm’s weekly cocktail hour. The firm was mid-sized and valued “fit” and wanted to see how I interacted with people. I’d just say to be friendly and if there is alcohol being served, make sure you have a drink of some sort in your hand even if you aren’t actively drinking it (personally I don’t handle alcohol well and wouldn’t have more than a few sips, or I might just get club soda with a twist). And if they’re serving non-alcoholic beverages or snacks, take a drink just so you aren’t the only one not eating/drinking, but maybe don’t take a snack in case you get something stuck in your teeth. Also, if there are non-attorney staff there, make sure you’re as friendly and polite to them as you’d be to an attorney. They may be evaluating you too.

    • nonA

      Huh, nighttime interviews – that’s a new one to me! Anyway, definitely don’t drink, or at most, SIP on something – if you feel awkward and want to “fake it” just ask for soda water or tonic water with lime.

      The scenario makes it sound like there will be multiple interviewees and it is kind of a combo reception/calback thing, but hard to tell – I wouldn’t be suprised to see others there.

      Also, its a rare opportunity as an interviewee to be in the firm after hours – if they are walking you from office to office, try to notice how many attorneys are there (OK, 5-7 isn’t really late, so I’d expect of them to be), if they look harried and like they will be up all night, if doors are open, etc. Law firms after the support staff go home can be very different places, so keep yours eye open!

    • legalicious07

      I used to put my nametag on the right side (with my undergraduate business training), but I since learned from a legal recruiter/consultant that the nametag goes on the left side. The idea is that as you reach forward to shake hands, the average right-handed individual is slightly covering their right breast/chest. So nametags are on the left for a completely unobstructed view.

      • Anonymous

        This is the exact opposite of what I learned (and what others said above).

  32. CJ in CA

    I’m in the market for a new mattress, but I’m poor. I’ve got about $400. Any tips? I tested some at Ikea and they seemed so comfortable, but I’m not sure about quality. On the other hand, the one the mattress store had in that price range would probably hold up, but was hard as a rock.

    • MelD

      I had an inexpensive Ikea mattress and it was fine. It was one of the types meant to go on the slats and not a box spring, so that ended up saving a bit of money. My sister had one for about 6-7 years and did have to buy the slats one time because they broke, but that’s a much cheaper purchase than getting a new mattress/box spring.

    • lawDJ

      yes yes yes to Ikea mattresses!! I bought a less than $300 one (foam, meant to go on slats, the 2nd cheapest they offered at the time) about 2 years ago and it’s still going strong. It is the most comfortable mattress I have ever slept in!! I’m totally serious about this. Buy the right one for your weight and the way you sleep, and it’ll be perfect. If you’ve always slept on spring mattresses like I had, it might take some getting used to because you don’t “bounce” when you sit on the bed, but trust me, it’s worth it. Even if I can afford another type of mattress I’ll likely buy an ikea one next.

    • E

      My husband and I have slept on an IKEA mattress for the last hmmm…3 years? It’s fine. We sleep well. I would say it’s starting to sag a little in the middle and we’re not turning it as often as we should, but if you’re broke, it’ll probably last you five years, which I don’t think is too bad.

    • Anonymous

      I have a memory foam Ikea mattress with a wool top layer and it is fantastic. It’s called the Sultan Finnvik. It’s $399 for a queen.

  33. atty

    Uf, so tired but the financial printer can’t get their act together and make accurate changes. When did it become ok to be incompetent??? Just ranting/trying to kill time waiting for them to freaking do what should have been done right 2 hours ago. Feel free to ignore.

  34. Jessica

    Piperlime had these same shoes for $25 a few weeks ago. Not sure they still have them.

  35. NY 3L

    Thanks everyone for all your advice. I know this is a bit late. Unfortunately I didn’t receive the offer but I did feel prepared and ready going in.

    Apparently the evening “reception” is something new the firm tried out this season. It was all the interviewees in one conference room with snacks and soda. They brought in a team of paralegals who would usher/escort us to our interviews. The paralegals were brought in halfway through the “reception.” Perhaps they wanted to see how we dealt with support staff?

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