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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
These fantastic, army green, wide-leg pants from Michael Kors Collection are relaxed but still polished. Am I delighted to see comfortable-looking trousers coming back? Yes. Am I heartbroken to have to add this to the list of poorly-styled photos of pants and shoes? Also yes.
We’ve discussed hem length around here before. For a wide-leg pant like this one, you’d typically want to have it hemmed so that the bottom of the pant leg covers most (but not all!) of the vamp of your shoe, with just the toe sticking out. I would probably wear these pants with loafers or (gasp!) white sneakers, so I would have my tailor hem them to that length and cuff the bottoms.
The pants are $890 at Net-a-Porter and come in sizes 0–12.
These pants from Polo Ralph Lauren are a more affordable alternative at $168 (sizes 00–12); a couple of options available in plus sizes are from Lands' End ($47 on sale; up to 26W) and Spanx ($128; petite, regular, and tall up to 3X).
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Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – 11/5 only – 60% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Up to 30% off on new arrivals
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – 11/5 only – 60% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Up to 30% off on new arrivals
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Anon
Anyone recently do an extensive home renovation recently? We are trying to buy a home (NYC suburbs) and most move in ready homes that we like and are in our price range are selling for at least 100k above asking price, which is not in our budget and already at an inflated price point. We are thinking of expanding our search to homes at a lower price point that need a lot of work, but are in the neighborhood we want. Most of these homes would need the carpets ripped out, bathrooms redone, completely new kitchen, maybe a wall torn down, new siding, a new roof—basically just short of a gut renovation. I know lumber and things are in high demand, so is this a terrible idea?
This is under the assumption that the renovation cost would not exceed paying above asking price on a move in ready home.
Anon
I’m in NJ and I’m seeing even houses needing a lot of work going for high prices. Also, most renovations are very delayed due to supply chain issues, so don’t expect to move in any time soon. You will be paying two mortgages (or continuing to rent) for many, many months, so factor that cost into your budget.
BeenThatGuy
North Jersey home owner here…I ordered siding and a new roof in April. The siding is still on backorder. The supply chain issues are no joke on building supplies.
Anon
I had some work done and had to use a sun-bleached part of siding we found in our crawl space while we wait for more siding. It is a horrid frankenhouse look but the best we could do for now.
Anonymous
I mean, it took me 5 months to get my siding replaced pre-Covid, so a 6- or 7-month turnaround doesn’t sound crazy to me.
Anon
NNJ. Ordered fence in Jan. Still waiting….
Anonymous
For the kind of updates you want to do, assuming you will not be DIYing, you are looking at several hundred thousand dollars. We are in the Boston burbs but here are some examples:
– refinish 3000sq ft of hardwood floor, inc some minor repair work- $15k
-add central air (includes duct work)- $25k (about half to replace an old broken system)
– facelift type reno to a full bath (updated fixtures and tile/paint; no moving plumbing) $15-25k
-kitchen reno: easily $75k, up to $150-200k. New semi custom cabinets in a big suburban kitchen are easily $30k.
– new roof 3000sq ft 2 story house- $16k
– new siding- if it’s cedar $60k++ (we did it pre pandemic so i bet labor has spiked).
Go for it
Hone prices are crazy inflated in NJ right now and nope l, you’ll not move in anytime soon. I would sit it out.
Buy the neighborhood, not the house. A great neighborhood makes life so much better. A great house in a lousy neighborhood son becomes not a great house.
Anonymous
On the other hand, a lousy house in a great neighborhood is also pretty miserable, especially when you are WFH and trapped in in 24/7.
Anon
Renovation is more expensive than you’d think right now, and unless you know what you’re doing and have a great contractor, you’re probably better off going for the 100k over asking range.
Anon
+1. OP, if your time is worth something (and it is), you will save way more money going over the asking price on something you like that doesn’t need a ton of remodeling to be liveable. Having done a gut remodel on a home, everything costs more and takes longer than you think. With supply-chain problems, it may be a year or more before the work is done and you can move in. It’s not just the cost of the remodel you have to consider, but the double mortgages, taxes and insurance; the considerable amount of time you will need to supervise the project; even the cost of driving back and forth from your house to the new house to check on progress, etc. It’s a major endeavor and I was not prepared, when we remodeled our old house, for how all-consuming it was.
I also want to echo the comment above about waiting out the market. There is a ton of irrationality still happening in the real-estate market and I’m sorry, but this can’t last forever, if history is any indication whatsoever. The folks I’ve seen in the press saying “this isn’t a real-estate bubble” are folks like bankers, real estate investors, etc. who benefit from the current situation. If we’re at a point where the only choices for buyers are offering $100k over asking, or paying $250k to remodel a fixer-upper that in 2018 would likely not have even sold, we’re in a bubble. I am honestly confused about people who feel like they just have to move right now, unless they’re in one of the following situations: 1. their job has moved very far from their current home; 2. they’re having a/another baby and there’s literally not a space to put the baby in, or 3. elderly parents who need care are moving in and they need their own space. I think this is the irrationality in the market: people getting FOMO and thinking they just HAVE to have a new house because they might miss out on something if they don’t buy now. Now is the absolute worst time to buy if you don’t absolutely have to.
Duckles
FWIW renting isn’t better. Moved cities and literally need a place to live. My options were 1) keep trying my luck at affordable rentals going in literally hours, 2) pay $1500 more/month than the comparable mortgage would be for a “nice” rental, 3) buy a top of budget cosmetically move-in ready place with more functional maintenance needed that made me nervous or 4) buy a livable but not updated place in a booming neighborhood (for still probably way over what it should have been, but under budget for me) and update as I can. After spending a month trying to do 1) I eventually went with 4) because I figured whatever bubble we’re in will be less impactful on less expensive properties.
Senior Attorney
+1
We have been doing extensive renovations to our house (also to a rental property) during the pandemic and it’s just breathtakingly expensive, even assuming you can find a good contractor.
Anon
In DC suburbs, I’ve had a ton of friends looking to do renovations who have had contractors ghost on them. So projects can take a very long time and have unpredictable delays, even setting aside the challenges getting materials and appliances. If you go this route you’d. We’d to be up for the new house not being ready for 1-2 years and paying for both it and current hone in the meantime.
Anon
Could you do the urgent things (new roof) prior to moving in and then upgrade the wants (floors, kitchen, bathrooms) in a few years?
London (formerly NY) CPA
+1 – This is the move. Everything I hear about even trying to do minor renovations right now sounds absolutely miserable. My parents each did gut renos on kitchens and bathrooms on their homes (which we continued to live in during renos) while I was growing up. Not the most fun, but you deal. The only one that was a problem was one of my parents only had one bathroom so when that was under construction, we had to stay elsewhere for a few days until the toilet and tub were functional.
The only one from the upgrades list I’d do before moving in is the floors. If they don’t get done before you move in, they’ll be a real pain later, as you’ll have to move furniture out of each room.
Also ask your inspector about how long the roof can realistically last. It might be something you can put off for a few years.
Senior Attorney
+1
I know this is going to sound all “you kids get off my lawn,” but back in the day you’d buy the best house you could afford in the neighborhood you wanted (neighborhood being by far the most important thing), and live in it as is until you could afford the upgrades you wanted. I have lived most of my life with “outdated” rooms of one kind or another!
anon
Yes, I feel old fashioned (I’m not yet 30!) because this was how I was taught to approach this as well!
Grew up middle class, am still middle class and thus my expectations I think are just lower than most here. Do the best with the money you have, and then go from there! My parents have lived in their house for 25 years, and are still only half way done the renovations they want to make; but their house is in a nice town, near family, has a good sized yard, etc. so they could deal with the fact that the kitchen is small and bathrooms still have the colored 1950s tile (pink in 1 bathroom, lime green in the other!).
Anon
You sound like you must be my daughter except my bathrooms are pink and blue ;)
Formerly Lilly
+1 to SA. I remember when having everything just the way you want it was for the filthy rich. The rest of us peons had to make do and go slowly. Of course I’m old enough also to remember starter houses, which were, honestly, pretty crappy and not in great neighborhoods, but it was a roof over your head and a way to build equity that would leverage you into something nicer.
anon
+1
My parents lived in an apartment in my grandparents attic for the first 5 years they were married to save money. They didn’t pay rent, and saved my mom’s entire salary (lived off my dad’s salary) for a downpayment. Then, they bought a small, outdated 3 bed/2 bath ranch. 30 years later, t hey still live there and have slowly been doing renovations (did the kitchen about 15 years ago, did an addition and the roof last year but still have not touched either very 1950s bathroom).
Cat
A gut renovation of a suburban HCOL home is likely going to be $200-$300K minimum… and it’s going to be a year or two before a contractor has bandwidth.
Senior Attorney
This seems insane but it’s absolutely true.
Anonymous
We are doing an attic addition and partial renovation of a suburban home in the SF Bay Area. No kitchen remodel, but three bathroom renovations. I’m predicting that it will be close to $750,000 all in.
anon for this
In NoVa, we got multiple bids for a gut reno + bumpout that we expected to be in the 280-320K range. The cheapest bid was 480 (highest was 700!) with no guarantees on timeframe given the supply chain issues. Needless to say, we are not proceeding at this time.
anon
I’m doing a master bath and closet gut right now and it’s $45k, before materials. Paying $100k over asking to get what you want without having to renovate everything is the economical route. Not to sound like a smug homeowner, but it wasn’t until we did our first (mostly DIY) cosmetic-only reno of a basement area that I realized just how expensive it is to renovate a space. I used to walk through open houses and just be like “oh i’ll just update that bath” without any remotely realistic concept of cost to do so, and that was pre Covid, too.
Anonymous
If you want to DIY it the financials will probably work out, however skilled labour is scarce right now so finding a construction company will be challenging and expensive.
NYCer
I would only buy a home that needs a gut renovation if you actually want to do a gut renovation. (Which some people do, we purposefully bought our apartment that needed a reno – several years ago – because we wanted to tailor it to our tastes.) As others have said, renovations are very expensive and time consuming, and if you don’t actually WANT to do a reno, you are probably better off sticking with a move-in ready house that is selling for $100K over asking.
Anon
Sounds like a lot of these changes are cosmetic. Could you buy the house now, wait for contractors/supplies to be more available and then start? Could you go room by room rather than a full gut?
Anon
When you do that, your likely result is living in a house you hate for years – living with construction in another room is hell, and many people forego fixing their homes once they either do one room or are moved in. Also, OP, 100k over gets folded into your mortgage, whereas you have to fund a renovation.
anon
Yes, but most of these are wants but not needs – having an outdated bathroom for a few years is really not that big of a deal. If you can’t afford a house you like then this is the next best option. I see nothing wrong with living in a house that’s fine, but not ideal for a few years.
Though, I was raised middle class and I am still middle class so compromising on a house you are meh about, and then waiting a long time to save up for renovations is normal in my book. My parents bought their house 30 years ago – they finally did a renovation they’ve been wanting to do for all 30 years last winter.
Anon
Depends on how you view a home – just a place to live then your approach is fine. If you plan to gain equity and have it as an investment then dated bathrooms are more of an issue.
anon
I would absolutely recommend on redoing things before you sell (and also recommend doing it early enough that you get to enjoy them before selling!), but I think waiting a year or five before doing so is totally fine.
If you live in the house for 30 years and wait 5 years before updating, then you still get to enjoy a house you love for 25 years!
Anon
Anon at 10:24, I agree with you, I just know too many people with good intentions of updating “in five years” that either becomes never or when selling.
Anon
I posted above that we did a gut renovation on our previous house – even after the gut, there were some things that needed attention, and what started out as “slightly dated but OK” ended up being REALLY dated after we lived in the house for 15 years. Once you’re in the house, the disruption and expense involved with major remodels of bathrooms or kitchens is hard to pull the trigger on. Additionally, every time we would get enough money put aside to start the bathroom remodel we needed, some major repair (roof, plumbing, electrical) would become necessary, and there went the budget. We moved out of the house after 17 years with the bathroom still not redone, which we had originally said we were going to do the first year we lived in the house.
When we started looking for a new house in 2018, we saw lots of what Anon at 9:49 references: houses where they had tried to do room-by-room remodels and ran out of money or gumption partway through. No shade on those folks because we had run into the same thing! But having lived in a not-quite-great house for a lot of years that required constant attention (read: money) to maintain, I had no desire to do that again. Very honestly, in the future, I would rather build an entirely new house than remodel an old one. My best friend is building a custom home right now and it’s every bit as expensive, frustrating and aggravating as a remodel, but at the end, everything in the house will be new and it will all be exactly to her tastes and specifications. I completely understand the appeal of the tear-down: in so many cases, it’s better to just start over from scratch than try to cobble together a livable space from something that was built for lifestyles and preferences that are completely different than the ones we have today.
anne-on
I fully agree with you (and would have loved to be able to afford to build from scratch!) but as someone who has now remodeled 3 baths and planning for a kitchen what is keeping us in our house is being fully aware of what a GOOD remodel/build to exact specs is vs. builder grade. We see SO many houses that are $1.5MM plus in our neighborhood with Ikea/home depot kitchens and bathrooms cheap finishes/tile/etc. and it drives me batty (and we ripped out a home depot honey toned wood and beige tile monstrosity of a mid-90s master bath, so we know first hand how low quality it was). A lot of home buyers just think looks shiny and new = good quality! If we ever (god forbid) move I’m either doing a gut reno to an old house with good bones or building from the foundation up ourselves.
anon
+1 on the poor quality of new construction.
Honestly, I’m only interested in pre-WWII houses. It might need cosmetic updates or repairs due to age, but in general things were made at a higher quality then (and I also just love the character!). New construction just doesn’t do it for me!
I’m a civilian employee of my county’s fire department, and I love hearing the firefighters talk about the differences of older homes vs newer ones.
anon
I feel the way about new construction the way I feel about furniture. My Wayfair furniture (let alone my Ikea/Target furniture!) is constantly coming apart, wobbly, giving me issues, etc while I have a desk and a bureau from my grandmother from the 1920s that’s solid as rock. It’s solid wood, all dovetail joints rather than nails/screws, and has help up so well for 100 years! I’m sure it cost my grandparents a pretty penny, but it obviously has more than paid for itself with 3 owners (grandmother, mom, me) over 100 years!
Anonymous
I would prefer to have a new home that at least won’t fall apart for the next 15 years. An older home is just a constant money pit. Everything needs to be replaced–wiring, pipes, HVAC (or that might need to be installed), water heater, roof, windows, driveway, etc. etc. etc. You have to deal with lead pipes and asbestos and lead paint. The rooms are always too small, the ceilings are low, and the closets are tiny or nonexistent. New construction may not be designed to last for 100 years, but at least if you buy a new home you have the builder’s warranty and the mechanical systems and windows probably aren’t going to fail for the next 10 or 15 years.
Anonymous
Not all new furniture is from Ikea, though. Our brand-new Gat Creek furniture is much more solid, more functional, and more pleasing to look at than any of the rickety, hideous antique furniture we have been saddled with. Presumably it is the same with houses.
Anon
You can get quality new construction where I live, even with things like townhouses but it’s definitely much more expensive. Most people don’t want to pay and extra $200k or whatever.
anne-on
We bought an older house (1800s) that had been kept up for a long time, but the owners were upside down on the mortgage after the financial crisis and when we moved in several ‘un-fun’ repairs had to be done ASAP. Expect that if what you can see is a mess, what you can’t see is worse. We couldn’t afford new construction when we bought, and I’m glad we bought when we did but major home renovations are costly, messy, emotionally taxing, and require a lot more of your time/energy to coordinate than you’d think.
In terms of cost – it took us months to find/reserve a slot with a good roofing company. For a 2 story house with lots of eaves/garage it cost us about $25k. Our neighbors with a ranch/attached garage (so all one level, same structure) paid closer to $15k. We had to have a sink replaced after the vanity surround cracked and our plumber told us he’s not even picking up calls from new clients, only referrals and existing clients.
Anon
I would buy if you are comfortable living there before everything gets renovated. Contractors are busy so you may have to wait a while to start any projects and there are a lot of supply chain delays right now. Kitchen and bathroom might have a longer lead time (particularly kitchen appliances), something like new carpet isn’t a huge deal. I guess know the difference between things you want to gut remodel because they’re old and ugly though perfectly serviceable, vs things you absolutely must remodel to live there.
Anonymous
I think it depends on how liquid you are. Do you have the money for a down payment plus construction costs? Down payment plus construction costs plus somewhere to live in the meantime (if you don’t plan on living in a construction zone)? Maybe Im stating the obvious, but 100k in purchase price is easier to finance with a mortgage than 100k in renovations.
I’m completing a huge renovation in this area as we speak. It’s been frustrating. However, since I didn’t replace too many walls I didn’t run into difficulties with lumbar pricing. I also reworked walls, installed a completely new kitchen and all bathrooms floors and doors. I wouldn’t call it a “complete gut” because most of the layout and systems and walls are in tact. I think redoing a house that was livable but dated is completely different than rehabbing a mold infested/ abandoned property situation where a property really needs to be gutted, if that makes sense. (I’ve done both and the risk on the true gut is higher in my opinion.)
Anonymous
I wouldn’t bother looking at move in ready homes even in a normal market because they’re so overpriced. I don’t want to buy from a flipper. I want to buy from a person who maintained the important stuff and maybe didn’t care that their carpet is worn and their kitchen and bathrooms are dated. If you own the house long enough you’ll need to remodel those things anyway, might as well do it to your taste rather than pay a premium to buy someone else’s selections.
anon
Couldn’t agree more!!
Anonymous
Yes! Buying from a flipper always seems like the worst plan. You get someone else’s generic changes done quickly in order to make a profit, and who knows whether there was actual quality that went into any of the redo.
Kat in VA
We bought a house from a flipper.
I can tell you, five years in, that “lipstick on a pig” is an accurate assessment of my house. It’s an odd blend of nice (Carrara marble shower in the master, all travertine in a basement bathroom with an architectural vanity/sink that must have cost $1500) and low end (builder grade carpet, cheap as hell chandelier in the foyer but very expensive chandeliers in dining and parlor, 3 of 6 bathrooms had no mirrors). All the cracks were simply plastered over and have now reappeared. The floor squeaks abominably. The roof leaked (new roof, too). Both of the AC/heating units are under-powered. I have a nice Verona dual fuel stove and a fridge that barely fits in its alcove. Odd placement of outlets, some of which don’t even work, because the kitchen was rearranged. I have a light switch on the wall that I suspect was for the (now moved) garbage disposal that lights one solitary recessed can light (that is not on the circuit with the other six).
The list goes on and on.
Anonymous
Further echoing that now is not the time to undertake a reno that can wait. I’m having major issues locking down a roofer because everyone is so busy.
Anon
we live in Houston so can’t comment on the NJ housing market, but do not even attempt to do a kitchen now. apparently getting appliances is taking 6+ months
Anonymous
I keep hearing this yet there seem to be plenty of appliances available. I replaced my dishwasher recently and my friends are all, omg how did you do it we’ve been looking and there’s NOTHING? Uh dude I had like 3 good options, I picked one. Are people dead set on getting the exact dishwasher they want and just refuse to consider anything that’s actually available?
anon
I admittedly have wondered the same. We had to replace a washer and dryer unexpectedly. We bought something in stock at the local appliance store, and I was actually somewhat grateful that I couldn’t overthink the purchase!
Anon
I think this may be it. We got a new standalone upright freezer last year and people were like, OMG HOW?? I just looked at what was in-stock or could be in-stock within a month and bought one. It’s a Frigidaire and it had good reviews, and while ideally I would have liked to find something a little cheaper, I paid approximately what it cost pre-pandemic; I didn’t get gouged or anything.
Anon
I had to replace a wall oven, so my dimensions were limited unless I wanted to demolish a brick wall. I could find exactly one model available anywhere, and it was the high high high end model with an outrageous price. There were none of the more reasonably priced models available that would fit my space.
Anon
I think it’s if you’re looking for something specific. We had to get our fridge replaced due to an issue, covered under warranty, and it took 8 months from our initial complaint.
RR
We had to replace our refrigerator suddenly and did the same. There were a couple options we could get quickly, and we picked one. It’s black stainless when the rest of my appliances are stainless. It’s totally fine. But, I think if you wanted to buy a matching set of kitchen appliances, there wouldn’t even be one option to get quickly. And I don’t care if my fridge matches, but I might care if every appliance was different.
Anonymous
I think you have received a lot of advice to consider. A few other thoughts: are you the type that wants to make decisions on improvements? Are you willing to wait for the right contractor? Do you want to live through construction? Some people like the control that redoing a house provides.
Anonymous
We are almost done with a major remodel in Colorado. It’s a 1968 house that had little work done it in the past 20 years, except it did have a new roof. We moved a few walls, and replaced the load bearing wall in the basement. We redid all floors, appliances, fixtures, etc. It took eight months to do the major remodel, and we still had people doing minor things six months after we moved in.
Our budget was $240,000, and we spent about $300,000. We could have spent less on some things like tile, but could have spent more. You can always spend more! Almost everything in the house is made in the USA.
The major cost drivers were moving the load bearing wall, the cost of wood and drywall increased during the project, replacing all the windows, and we had a lot of electrical work done. When you start doing this type of work, you need to comply with current codes, and there just aren’t a lot of options.
We did not live in the house during the major work, but there were still things being done after we moved in. We got the house at a good price because we paid cash to the seller without her having to list it or do any work at all. We wanted a house in a very specific place, and the seller knew we were interested a year before she was ready to sell.
The most important thing is we had a good general contractor with a lot of relationships. He had done work previously for family members, so we knew his reputation. His relationships with plumbers, electricians, etc. was key in getting people in to do the work. Also, we were very cognizant not to be jerks and to have drinks, microwave, etc. always available. You want your house to be one people want to come back to.
OP
Thanks for all the great advice! We do have to move within the next year but have some time to wait on the market and will probably do so. I needed this reality check!
Anon
These concepts of flippers and being done in 8 weeks with everything perfect and on our close to budget etc and getting your Fran home automatically is a fairy tale made by HGTV.
We seem to have forgotten its as real as reality tv!
Brit
Having just looked and bought a home in North Jersey, most houses that need a lot of renovation that come to market are overpriced. Contractors have relationships with real estate agents and get the first opportunity on fixer uppers before they go to market. In our experience, if something that needs work went to market the list price was too high for the amount of work needed.
Also, I know a lot of people say to sit it out and wait. Take a look at the history of the towns you’re looking at. Where we are, even 5 years ago was insanity with bidding wars and people offering way over ask. I think there is some crazy in the market right now but there will always be a desire to live close to NYC
Duckles
I am under contract on a house like this— about $75K under budget and planning to reno the bathrooms ASAP. It’s livable, if not amazing, in the meantime though, which I think is important given the construction delays. I needed to live somewhere and just had no confidence anything else would come on the market that was already updated/ the places that were move in ready tended to have more cosmetic upgrades without the actual high cost improvements (kitchen, siding, etc) so figured I’d rather keep the $$ and do it myself.
Super anon
My husband left on his first work trip since Feb 2020 yesterday. A half hour before I drove him to the airport, I picked up his phone in the master bath to hand it to him downstairs. It was on and open to a website that was clearly him asking to hook up with strangers on his work trip (his post asked to eat p*ssy). I confronted him about the content and the fact we hadn’t talked about this as a possibility- I’m very hurt by both.
He says he was just looking for attention online and would never actually go through with it. Who knows, but I do love him and think I trust him to some extent still (which makes me feel a bit dumb).
When I got home I found out that he had tried to make a similar post when he was quarantined away from me in a hotel after he had attended a crowded family wedding I did not go to over Labor Day weekend (that post was taken down by mods because his account was too young). Harder and harder to trust him.
We are doing online therapy now. Our s*x life was not great during the pandemic but it’s something we had talked about and were working and I thought it was getting better.
Not sure exactly how to think about my situation. His behavior is awful and I love him and want our marriage to work. Any advice or commiseration welcome, not interested in DTMFA now.
Anonymous
So I have no direct, clear experience. I do have a marriage that has been really rocky for the past 3 years. Three weeks ago, something just clicked (long story) and it’s a 180. We are in one of the best places we have been in easily the last decade.
One thing that has come out was how lonely DH has been. I don’t think he cheated physically, and I have intentionally not tried to dig around, but it wouldn’t surprise me i found stuff like you describe above over the periods when things were bad.
I think it’s time for a serious conversation between the two of you, with or without a therapist (DH and I did better without; for us, therapy formalized things we’d rather have worked through organically). Find out if you both want the same things still, and how you can get there.
So my advice is not to DTFMA, but rather, decide if you want to fix things and go into a very big conversation with an open mind.
I am the most grudge-holding person on the planet. However, I’ve made it very clear that I want to fix our marriage and want a clean slate to do it. I didn’t cheat or anything like that, but I have not been the best partner and I know it. I heard “I was so lonely” outside of any discussion of what I did or didn’t find about what DH did or didn’t do, so it wasn’t an excuse. It really helped me out things in perspective.
Anon
I’m so sorry. He is terrible. I’m so sorry to say that he has most likely already cheated on you and you should prepare to end the relationship if that is a deal breaker for you.
Super anon
In normal times I would agree with you, but the pandemic put a lot of stress on our relationship and s*x life so he has not had the opportunity to go outside the relationship other than these two times. He totally might have gotten an escort or gone on CL or anything else in September….not sure I can trust him on that.
Elegant Giraffe
It’s worth considering whether ‘global pandemic prevented cheating, even though there is clear evidence he wanted to’ is somehow superior to actual cheating.
Anon
This.
Saguaro
I’m sorry you are going through this. However, you don’t really know that these were the only two times he “had the opportunity”, just because he was away during those two times. There is no reason to think he didn’t do this other times, when he was home, especially if it is true that he “would never go through with it”. You don’t have to be away from home to post on a website.
Anon
Hey, sorry to hear you are going through this. You’ll want to get an STD test just in case. I think you need to set hard limits on this “attention seeking” which is not good for the relationship. He needs to build back your trust, but how that’s done is very individual. Lost trust is like a broken leg. You can’t walk on it until it’s set. And it might never go back to 100% they way it was- certain weather will make it twinge up and ache. But there’s no use in continuing a relationship if there is no trust. You’ll just be forever waiting for that shoe to drop which is a terrible way to live.
Anon
+1 on the STD test
Anon
+2 on the STD test. Came here to suggest it. Also, any gardening happens with gloves. (This is not a statement that you have to or even should consider gardening.)
Anon
Aaaand make sure that you have money in your own bank account that he does not have access to. Even if you have no intention of divorcing him, he can drain your joint accounts before leaving you.
Anon
You’re scared and in shock. You thought you knew him, but it turns out you don’t. You might be thinking, “Well, if had done X, maybe he wouldn’t have taken these steps…” Nope. There is nothing you could have done. HE is the one who is broken inside and HE is the one who needs to do the work with a therapist. (You should work out your feelings, too, but he needs to figure out what’s wrong with him that he was posting online.) And you need to at least acknowledge that divorce is a likely outcome here, particularly if he doesn’t repent (you didn’t mention any apologies on his part, just a “I wasn’t really going to go through with it”) and he doesn’t put in serious work at therapy because YOU deserve someone who is crazy about you and capable of loving you in a healthy way. (You say “I love him and I want our marriage to work.” Does he love you and does he want your marriage to work? Important food for thought before you spend years trying to make something work.) Hugs to you. This is such a hard time.
Super anon
Thanks for your response. He apologized first for making me cry and then for posting and then for not talking to me about it first (I wouldn’t have been totally closed to the idea before….not open now…). But he backtracked on the last apology since he thinks his needs have been “obvious”.
He signed us up for therapy and is making an effort. I believe he loves me. I feel comfort that my own reaction was that I want to make this work (otherwise divorce would be inevitable) but also recognize my feelings may change over time in both directions.
Anonymous
It sounds like he has a lot of anger and resentment. He’s convinced himself that he’s entitled to pursue his needs outside of the relationship. If you two talked about opening the relationship at one point, he saw that as the “permission” he needed to not feel guilty. Hopefully this will be a wake up call to him. He needs to refocus on the relationship. Stop all outside activity. You say he’s had no opportunity for anything else, but there’s always the internet. I agree with the above commenter that you both need to come together and decide whether you want to prioritize this marriage. His actions are showing you that he’s not there right now.
Anonymous
All the hugs to you. I am thinking that you do not have children? While you do not want any DTMFA advice, things do not look good. I suggest individual therapy for you, so you can talk this over with someone.
Super anon
Correct no children. We are child free.
Anonymous
I really hate to be the one to say this, but he’s a serial cheater, please go get an STD test and insist he does too.
Anon
+1
Anonymous
I do think that this is a smart move, but I also don’t see any evidence necessarily that he is physically cheating.
So yes, get tested, but if interested in working through this/saving a marriage, perhaps hear him out and determine if he actually did anything, or just posted online. There’s a really good chance nothing physical happened. There is also a possibility that it did, so it is important to get tested.
Super anon
I don’t think this and responded above as to why – pandemic has been specifically hard on our relationship and no other opportunities. But I am interested in why you think this?
Elegant Giraffe
Because someone who wants to cheat will usually find a way. And you should protect yourself as best you can, given this new knowledge.
Super anon
Thanks for your answer. That makes sense. Sorry if this answer seemed obvious. I’ve been blindsided so it’s not obvious to me.
Anon
+1 get tested and quit defending your husband – you asked for advice and you’re getting it, OP
Super anon
Thank you for this answer. I’ve been blindsided and thinking through this is very difficult. the answer was not obvious to me.
anon
I wouldn’t assume there have been no opportunities because of the pandemic.
Anon
I’m sorry this is happening to you. I don’t believe him for even a second that he ‘would never go through with it’. That’s just him trying to weasel out of accountability in a moment of conversational evasion. I personally would take your trust level down a notch (or 5) for this guy.
Anon
+1
Anonymous
You shouldn’t trust him at all because he’s lying to you and exploring cheating on you. That doesn’t mean you have to stop loving him and break up tomorrow but I don’t think you will be able to work through this until you really acknowledge that truth.
I think it is time for in person therapy together and separately for you.
Anon
Please get STD tested.
Anon
This is so unnecessary right now. If OP ends up leaving him and dating again, she can deal then. Or at her annual visit. My goodness, when you’re down the last thing you need to do is run to tested.
Anonymous
This is terrible advice. Some STIs can be symptomless but cause serious long term issues if left untreated (including infertility). Plus a positive result will give her a pretty clear indication that her DH has been physically unfaithful.
Anon
Yes, this. Many people miss the early symptoms of syphilis, for example, and the impacts of untreated syphilis are terrible. Chlamydia is often symptomless and can cause infertility. This is not something that should wait for a year or be delayed to the point when OP, if she divorces, is considering dating again.
Carly
This is incorrect advice. Some STDs can be serious, and in any case its always better to catch things earlier. She should know for her own health, not just for if she is dating again.
Anon
Wait what? This is a health issue. She knows he’s “explored” cheating twice. It would be foolish to just assume he hasn’t done anything.
Super anon
I got tested recently at my annual visit anyway.
Anon
Super anon, I would ask your OB if you should be re-tested. My OB does not normally do a full STI panel for married women. They only test for HPV and maybe a couple of other things that can be latent for a long time. I know it hurts but you need to tell your OB you have reason to believe your husband cheated and ask her what tests she recommends.
Anon
Uhhh it’s kind of an issue if she has an untreated STD that can have unpleasant side effects.
No Face
No, she really needs to get tested right now. Ignoring the health risks does not help her. (I’ve had a friend who developed cervical cancer from HPV so I think everyone should get tested the moment they realize there is a chance their monogamous relationship may not have been monogamous).
Anonymous
Don’t they check for that every year anyway?
Anon
This is bad advice. STI testing should be an immediate priority, even in the middle of an emotionally challenging situation.
Anon
HPV takes 10 to 30 years from infection to turn into cancer, but okay, run now to the doctor. That makes sense.
Anon
Did I say this was just about HPV? Many other STIs show up faster and can be more easily treated if they’re caught soon. She should have continued screening for HPV in the years to come, for sure.
Anonymous
What on earth is the downside of getting tested?
Anon
Yeah, like, good lord – are people no longer learning about syphilis, chlamydia, etc? HPV is not the only potential concern by far.
Anon
I see the downside as a failure to prioritize what’s actually important here. I’d focus on her financial health/situation – I’d start with setting up a separate bank account (and redirecting her paychecks there if they go into a joint pot), making sure she has the resources to split if that’s where this goes. I’d also focus on finding a good therapist and making time to figure out what she wants. And I’d consult with a divorce lawyer now just in case and to get advice (a few actually to conflict out anyone her H might talk to). All of that takes a lot of time, and presuming she has a job, she also needs to keep from being so distracted by this hat she puts her job in jeopardy. I’m not saying don’t do it, it’s just hardly the first thing I’d put on the list.
Anonymous
Yeah, holy cow, did people not take $ex ed in middle school?
Anon
A doctor’s appointment takes an hour. I don’t think she has to do it tomorrow, but it’s really easy to let something like that slip for weeks or months or even years if you don’t make it an immediate priority. If making the appointment is overwhelming, have a friend do it.
Anonymous
What?!? You want her to wait until she leaves him and starts dating again to find out whether her cheating husband gave her a serious disease? Even in the fantasy situation where he reforms his behavior and they stay together, she still needs to be tested immediately.
anon
Most OBs do not do a full panel, including HIV and the standard STIs, unless you proactively ask. While I am not super sexually active… or at all at this point.. I always ask for it. You never know.
When someone has a question as to whether their partner has been sexually active with third parties, that person really should get tested. Once immediately and then again in 3 months. It takes hardly any time and will ensure that all are caught. (the 3 month bc of HIV)
Finances and other strategic moves are also very important. However, none of that matters if Super Anon’s health fails them because of not getting tested.
Anon
Omg unchecked and untreated STDs have consequences and the sooner you get treatment the better! I would 100% get tested ASAP!
Anonymous
Something else to consider — I worked for a very large multi-national in audit and compliance. We terminated very senior people who were doing things like this on a business trips. Some of them were exposed during the Ashley Madison data breach, one was set up and then arrested, and a few were the subject of coworker complaints. It was taken very seriously as a risk to the company and individual, and there was no severance or anything, they were just flat out terminated.
Anon
I understand that if a coworker is complaining, the person’s conduct is far too public and you have to do something. But terminating someone just for being on Ashley Madison is pretty wild to me. For one thing, some people are ethically non-monogamous, but even if they’re cheating, it seems like an issue between the two people in the relationship. I hate cheating and it would be a dealbreaker for me in a marriage, but it still doesn’t seem appropriate to me for someone’s employer to get involved.
Anon
If there’s a corporate security concern and the behavior could make the employee more susceptible to blackmail, I think the employer has an interest.
Anonymous
+1. At my employer if you open yourself up to blackmail by cheating, drugs, gambling etc it is a fireable offense.
Anonymous
When you’re on a business trip you should be focused on business. Ymmv I guess but I’ve always had dinner with coworkers or clients, I have approximately zero free time because I want to make the most of the trip to further my career. If you want to extend over the weekend on your own dime then do whatever you want.
Anon
They claim that they are ethically non-monogamous. That isn’t exactly a certain thing.
No Face
In my marriage, something like this would be treated as adultery whether he met up with another woman or not. Take some time to process through what you want in individual therapy, and in talks with a close trusted friend who knows you well.
The fact that you found out by accident and not because he confessed on his volition indicates that there could be more bad news.
Anon
Agree with all this.
Anonymous
Agreed, unfortunately. This is adultery to me for sure.
Senior Attorney
Yeah, I can’t imagine this happening in my marriage and it not being a way huger deal than you are making of it.
OP, I feel like you are in shock and wanting to minimize his bad behavior, which I understand. But he has shown you who he is and I urge you to get your own individual therapy and really look into whether you want a marriage on these terms.
Big hugs to you. I’m so sorry this is happening.
NYNY
First of all, I am so sorry that you’re going through this. Give yourself a lot of space to feel your feelings, because how you feel and what you want for your marriage are two separate things. You may want to seek out a support group for the partners of cheaters to talk to others who have been through the same thing.
Couples therapy is important, but your husband likely needs individual therapy as well. In couples therapy you work on what you want your relationship to be in the future – What do you need from him to be able to trust him again? What does he need from you that he isn’t getting? How do you both make that happen? Is it worth it? – but your husband needs to work out the root cause of why he would sneak around on you. It’s not your fault, and if he doesn’t work out why he did it and do the serious work to get past it, then he will do it again.
Sending support and hugs.
Anonymous
I’m sorry he did this to you. One thing to consider is what this is going to do to your own sex life with him. You mentioned that it wasn’t great. Are you now going to feel pressured to do things you don’t want to do to keep his attention, such as more extreme acts or a frequency you don’t actually want?
I think this is an underlooked consequence of cheating. If the trust gets destroyed in your relationship, what is it going to do to the physical side and how is that going to impact you? Sex should only ever take place between two enthusiastic, consenting adults. Do you think that will be possible now? Only you can answer.
Also, please heed the advice of others and get tested for STIs.
Super anon
Thank you for this. It’s something I’m thinking through. My relationship to s*x is not great right now in general so it’s something I need to work on in therapy individually first I think.
Anon
That’s no excuse for him cheating. Please do not blame yourself.
Anonymous
That’s exactly my concern for OP. OP, are you going to blame yourself for his actions or say “if only I had been willing to do ____, he wouldn’t have cheated?” That’s not true, that’s not healthy, and it won’t make you happy. I know it’s hard to hear and I totally get the temptation to minimize his actions and seek other explanations, but this is NOT your fault. It’s also not something that “happened” to either of you – it’s something he chose to do to your marriage.
Anon
And why is your relationship to s*x not great? Abuse? Not feeling safe or secure with your husband in that area? Definitely do not assign blame to yourself. It takes two people to have a healthy relationship.
Anon
Wait, wait: not only is he trying to cheat, but he wants to break quarantine to cheat and then come home to OP like “quarantine’s up and I’m safe.” A cheater and a completely irresponsible jerk, to boot.
Anonymous
This is true, if you don’t believe him that he wasn’t planning to act on it.
I’m not saying OP should or shouldn’t believe him; that’s for her to sort out.
Anon
I co-sign getting tested for STDs, and also looking after your financial well-being. Not sure whether you or he earn more than the other or around the same. Depending, it might be worth considering a post-nup. In any event, I would have my financial affairs in order.
This is horrible and I’m so sorry. Please think about yourself and your future, whether you stay together or not, and don’t let him blame you for his own actions. What he has done, whether it’s just what you know or more, was a conscious choice. He could have talked to you about his problems or feelings but chose not to. I’m not saying you are perfect or anything (I don’t know you!), but that’s not an excuse for his actions.
Anonymous
+1
This.
Anon
I’m not going to advise you to dump him. I am going to say, there are times in any marriage where one partner or the other feels lonely/in need of attention. The healthy-for-the-relationship way to handle that is for one partner to approach the other and express that need and have a conversation about how to get that need met. I have been the person doing the approaching in my relationship, and I have been the person getting approached. It’s usually a wake-up call that we’ve gotten complacent in the marriage and need to do something – shake up our routine; go away on a trip together; spend more time together without devices being in-hand, etc. I’ve been married over 20 years and it is really easy to fall into a rut. It can be hard work to keep the focus on improving the marriage, and not “hey, I bet there are some new shiny things out there that could make me feel good temporarily.” My problem with your husband’s actions is that it seems like he beelined for the new shiny thing rather than even attempting to approach you about how he was feeling. My personal belief (based largely on what I have seen in friends’ marriages) is that once that kind of thing starts, it’s hard for the person to stop it. Therapy is the right move; I think in your situation I would insist on him doing some individual therapy to understand his motivations.
I know you’re going to get a lot of “just dump him” messages and all I can say is, life is long and relationships are complicated. What you said in your post – that you love him and you want your marriage to work, and also that his behavior is awful – all of that can be true simultaneously. I have never met anyone who’s been married for any substantive length of time (over 10 years) who didn’t have some story about something their spouse did that was outside the bounds of what they thought was acceptable. No one is perfect. This behavior by your spouse is really far from perfect, but I don’t think the situation is irredeemable, IF he is willing to work on himself and figure out why his need for attention was more important to him than his trust bond with you. Definitely, if you don’t see real acknowledgement that this is a problem; he isn’t willing to confront his own motivations; or the behavior continues or repeats – think about whether or not this is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with. Someone who can’t subjugate their own base impulses for the good of the marriage probably isn’t someone you can be happy with, long-term. Hugs and good luck to you.
Anonymous
This is exactly how I would answer, but far more articulately. I’m only married 15 years but I think I’ve learned a lot.
Walnut
Wait, so he still went on the trip after you confronted him? He didn’t acknowledge this was a major situation that undoubtedly is going to upend his life? The right answer here should have been for him to cancel the work trip and start working on rebuilding the trust ASAP.
I’m so sorry. I’d get an STD test and get your independent financial house in order. If you want things to work out, then I sincerely hope they do, but I would also give some energy to Plan B.
Anon
I think if I were his boss and he canceled a work trip to re-build trust in his marriage, I would not look kindly on that. Of course he still went on the trip.
Anon
You can say you have a family emergency, you don’t need to offer specifics about “rebuilding trust in my marriage.”
Anonymous
Not all of us can just cancel a business trip. Idk how it helps for him to get fired
Walnut
I don’t know, if I screwed up in my home life this badly, I’d tell my boss I had a covid exposure and not go on the trip.
Super anon
He offered to cancel but it would be very bad for his career to cancel and I told him not to. In my view trust is already breached and I’ll have to decide to trust him or not no matter where he is.
Walnut
I’m so sorry – sincerely. It seriously sucks. I wonder if there is merit in planning some time for when he gets back in an attempt to just lay all the cards on the table? Sometimes having these conversations while walking/hiking makes it a bit easier? Something about expelling kinetic energy awhile having hard conversations can get the ball rolling.
anon
I’m glad you’re going to counseling, and it’s promising that he set it up. However, I hate to be a naysayer, but I would be prepared to hear some additional stuff that may change how you feel about this situation. I don’t want to be a cynic, but based on what I’ve seen in friends’ long-time marriages, once this stuff starts, it so easily becomes a pattern. I understand being lonely. Even in a good marriage, it’s hard to go a lifetime without feeling lonely at some point. But, this is not the way to handle it and puts you in a terrible position. This has happened on multiple occasions, which doesn’t bode well. Go into all this hoping for the best but I’d actually advise focusing on what YOU need to feel comfortable, particularly since your s3x life was already on shaky ground. Your DH is the one who strayed; he has to do the heavy lifting of fixing and facing the consequences.
Anon
Agree. Especially troubling if when confronted he didn’t tell you the whole story and you only figured out what may not even be the full deal by investigating. The deception is very hard to recover from.
Anon
I am a former divorce attorney and someone who’s been through a divorce where there were some trust issues. I see women do this a lot. You just found out, and you’re already trying to figure out how to fix things and “save” your marriage. A lot of times that’s a coping mechanism. If you focus on fixing things you don’t have to focus on your hurt. The hurt’s gonna come for you though. I would completely table all talk about saving your marriage, and go meet with an individual counselor and unpack what’s going on internally with you. Don’t spend all your energy fixing your marriage just to wake up two years from now finally ready to deal with the pain and not sure you even want the marriage anymore.
Anon4this
+1. My husband cheated on me 2 years ago and this is me.
I would track the shit out of him and not tell him. Google how to track locations on iPhone and with google accounts (you should be able to see what he has googled. Go through phone statements, bank accounts, emails. I am guessing there’s a lot more. Find out eve ray thing ASAP so it’s less painful than the drip drip drip of information and so you have all the information you need to decide.
Anon
One other point. You may feel sometimes like you wish you hadn’t seen that website or knew this was happening, but it is SO good that you figured this out. This kind of thing doesn’t go away on its own. You need this info to figure out what to do next so it’s a gift, as painful as this is. Good luck.
A
It looks like you’re ok being married to a man you
1. Cannot trust
2. Who has probably cheated
3. Will most likely cheat (again)
No advice. Just….good luck. I am sorry this happened to you. But you have agency for your choices.
Anon
Has anyone tried Caddis readers or any other sort of bifocal / graduated reading glasses? I don’t have a prescription other than 2.00 for reading, and am finding myself in more situations where I need a third hand for taking glasses on and off (e.g., hiking while using a compass and map, lounging at the pool and reading a book/heat sheet for swim team but it’s sunny so I need bifocal sun glasses now). Previously, life was all reading-glass-friendly (office work) or they weren’t needed generally (playing tennis). And I’m used to having 10 pairs of cheap readers left anywhere I might need them (work, car, weekend purse, night stand, kitchen, and a few spares), so if I switch to a $200ish pair + case, I want to make sure they do a good job and I won’t be able to destroy them quickly (for hiking, I’d get an eyeglass strap maybe).
Anonymous
Even though my “prescription” for readers is 1.25, I have found a progressive set of glasses very helpful. I got a prescription from my ophthalmologist, and had it filled on line like any pair of glasses. Well worth doing!
Saguaro
Yes. I use “progressive readers” since I need readers even for my computer screen. I love them. I tried Caddis but they were not the right level of progression for the top part, so I couldn’t see the screen. I have had the best luck with cheap Foster Grant progressive readers.
Anon
Thanks — I should just buy stock in Foster Grants. Some brands I could easily be a brand ambassador for (I own 20 pairs! One is within reach of me 24/7! Hard to break!).
Formerly Lilly
I go to an optician and have them put a progressive reader lens in a regular glasses frame. It’s no magnification on top, just clear. They can start the magnifying progression at a point that is just right for your face and the glasses, such that they are just right for everything from driving to close reading. You said that you don’t have another prescription so you probably don’t have extra frames, but when I get a new pair of glasses I have the old frames done with the clear on top and progressive magnification below. I got tired of courtroom situations where between looking at notes and looking at a witness/judge/jury, it was just too much with the readers on, readers off, readers on….
Anon
Good pants / presentation until you get to the hem / footwear. Yikes! I’m feeling better about how I dress myself now.
Anon
This is how I feel too. Love the color and upper part of the pants.
Anon
Ymmv, I think it looks fresh and modern.
Anon
My eye sees pants not hemmed to any proper length except for the highest of heels and shoes that look very bridesmaids’ brunch (except the visible strap looks a bit wide and very thick, which is odd) vs going with this sort of pants.
Anon
In kind of a hobo hooker way
Anon
In kind of a hobo hooker way
Anon
I feel like the Olsen Twins have a stronger fashion game than this. They could make knickers work if they are resistant to hemming but not this. And not these shoes.
Anonymous
Thanks for being the voice of dissent! I’m getting more interested in fashion these days and I think one of the most fun parts is how the eye adjusts to what looks “right” but new styles sometimes look hideous. It’s almost like other visual arts where someone has to explain to me why it’s interesting and/ or different for me to appreciate it.
Anon
Thanks, 10:30! I love fashion and agree, there’s always a moment of “wait, what?” and then your eye adjusts and it opens up a lot of possibilities with how to style your own clothes.
LaurenB
Fresh and modern to trip all over yourself?
Anon
A broken nose and busted teeth are so…now.
Anonymous
I don’t mind the presentation so much since they do highlight the trousers, but I’m really meh about the idea of styling wool trousers with sandals and a tank top. If it’s cold enough for wool trousers, I want socks! long sleeves! shoes!
Anon
Is anyone here familiar with the cybersecurity Scholarship for Service program?
I currently work in academia in an okay but fairly tedious and mediocre mid-level administrative position. It is a terminal position and I manage a small staff.
Because I can take classes for free, and for the challenge, I’ve been taking computer science courses. Apparently I’ve been doing well, and the department brought up this program as a way to fund a masters’ degree. The stipend is enough to live on for the time I’d be in school and there is an obligation to work for the federal government for the same amount of time the degree is funded (probably 2 years). My record is clean and there’s no reason I wouldn’t be able to obtain a security clearance if needed. While my state benefits are pretty good, and my pay is adequate, I’m told federal pay and benefits are better.
If I started my masters in the fall, I’d be 45 when I finish.
Aside from fear of the unknown, and that I’d be the weird old person entering the new grad job market, it seems like a solid idea. Does anyone have any experience with this? The idea of stepping out into the unknown is daunting.
anon
I don’t have any experience with this program, but knowing what I do about cyber and also being insanely bored in my current job, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Anon
No experience, but it seems like a solid program and there’s a huge demand for cyber personnel. We cannot hire enough people and pay a lot. I see a lot of older people in the less glamorous side of cyber like RMF compliance.
Cornellian
I don’t have experience with that, but I’d for sure do it! If your school is calling your performance out, it seems like you must have real talent. You can always go back to administrative work if you prefer it.
Anon
As long as you are willing to relocate to DC, I would 100% do it.
Anon
You’ll be 45 in two years anyway. If you do the program, you’ll be 45 with a masters.
Anonymous
Does anyone use medical marijuana for glaucoma with a doctor’s guidance? How did you find the doc? I wonder if my 75-yo mother would benefit but her regular eye doc has no opinions.
anon
I didn’t for glaucoma but for other reasons. Your state should have a website/page dedicated to its medical MJ program where you will be able to search/find doctors who are registered/certified to write MJ prescriptions. That’s where I started.
Anon
What state are you in?
Anon
This, if she’s in a state where it’s legal, I’d get advice from a dispensary and not necessarily her doctor.
Anon
I was going to suggest this, as well.
Anon
My mother doesn’t use it for glaucoma but uses it for other medical ailments. Her various doctors generally aren’t well versed in it and generally would not state an opinion when asked. One cancer doctor said that she had some patients that found it helpful but she had no opinion one way or the other and was not authorized to prescribe anyway. It was difficult to get solid medical advice I guess for legal reasons. Not sure what state you’re in but she ended up getting a medical card from a random doctor via telemedicine. I think it’s been more helpful with fewer side effects than some of her previous prescriptions.
Jules
I have incipient glaucoma – and have since I was not even 50 – and I asked my opthalmologist about medical MJ. His opinion was that it is good for pain but not likely to do much for glaucoma (unless maybe it is used around the clock). I would start with her eye doctor, and if that person isn’t knowledgeable than with a doctor who deals with medical MJ.
Carrots
DMV folks, I’m looking to start taking investing more seriously (right now I have a company 401k I fully match and an IRA that’s a combination of roll-overs that I just let sit). Does anyone have any recommendations for woman-owned investment companies that are local to DC? I’m very new to the idea of investment beyond 401ks/IRAs and at this time, probably won’t be adding much to it, but still want to get it rolling.
Anon
I interviewed Red Clover consulting and liked her, but decided to go with someone else (a non-mainsplainy man). I also looked into Luminate, but she’s booked into March. (These are fee-based fiduciaries). I found wealthramp and the XY planning network to be useful research tools.
Anon
If you don’t have much money yet, why not just open a brokerage account at vanguard and invest in VTSAX. Save the more complicated stuff for when you have more money, but this is easy to start now.
Anon
This.
Anon
Yes, definitely this.
Guadeloupe
My husband and I are planning a trip to Guadeloupe in Jan or Feb. Has anyone been? Any recommendations on which part of the island to stay? Would love to hear your experiences!
emeralds
With the caveat that this was in in 2005/2006, so things may have changed since then…I haven’t been to Guadeloupe but I have been to Martinique, and the big thing I’ll say is that the culture felt quite distinct from anywhere else I’ve been in the Caribbean–much more French (which makes sense), adding up to a bit more of a colder and more formal vibe than I think most North Americans would expect. I was there with a fluent French speaker and spoke decent French myself, so navigating was easy enough for us, but it definitely did not feel like English was widely spoken if that’s a concern for you at all. Personally, I would not choose to go back, but of course all of this is one very individual experience and your mileage / preferences may vary.
Anon
+1 my parents had a similar experience there as well.
Rox
We stayed in Basse-Terre and loved the French vibe to the island! And the amazingly cheap and good french wines. :) Definitely take a boat trip to Iles des Saintes if you’re able.
Anonymous
I’m only seeing this today, so you might not be checking answers anymore, but I went to Guadeloupe in 2018 and loved it! I speak fluent French, and that was important, most of the tourists are French (for exactly the same historical/colonial reason that most tourists in Puerto Rico are American) and so even the tourist industry is not necessarily that great at English. We spent half our time on the west side of the island (in Bouillante) and half our time on the east side (in Le Moule). Great hiking and diving on the west coast, lovely beaches on the east coast, good creole food, and lots of filming locations for Death in Paradise. The roads are narrow and windy, so you want to stay fairly close to whatever type of activity you’re planning to do.
JustmeintheSouth
Boot help–Want slouchy boots in a tan or brownish shade, with a heel about 2 inches. BR has gorgeous pair, but heel over 3 inches is not practical for me. Has anyone seen medium heel boots???
anon
You can sort by heel hight online at DSW, and I’m sure other retailers as well!
I have the Marlee knee high boots from Target in black, but they have a cognac color as well. The heel is I think 2.5 inches, but its a block heel and the boots don’t feel heeled at all. I find them comfortable (Ive only worn them 2x so far, though) but they’re not very slouchy.
Anon
Yeah, heel height is a filter at every major retailer.
Painting conundrum
We are moving into a new apartment, and plan to have the bedroom and kitchen painted. I was planning to hire a professional to do this, but our super has offered to do so. I don’t know how I feel about this–he’s not a professional painter, but he’s probably done this for others in our building, so maybe that’s good enough, and he’ll likely be less expensive than a pro? My husband thinks that declining his offer will offend him, and your super is not someone you want to offend. What do you think? Is painting a fairly low-skill job that a super can do easily, or should I hire a pro?
Anonymous
Your super can paint. It isn’t hard.
anon
My parents had me helping to paint walls at like 6 years old, so I think it’s pretty low skill. Obviously, I wasn’t doing the trim or anything like that, but I think pretty much anyone can paint well enough.
However, I also come from a family where we’d rather die than pay someone to do something we can do ourselves, especially something as easy as painting so YMMV.
Cat
If you are just painting walls of 2 rooms I wouldn’t hire either of them and just DIY it.
anon
+100
Painting is one of the easiest DIY projects. All it “costs” is $20ish for a gallon of paint and an afternoon of your time. Admittedly, I’m experiencing some stress in my financial life right now, but this question reads like such a rich people problem! I don’t know anyone who hires out painting.
AIMS
I think it’s easy for some people and not for others. I have tried and failed to paint empty rooms well. My last attempt took me the entire day and it looked like sh*t even though I was basically painting the room an off-white and I will never do it again. There are tons of things I am willing to DIY (painting furniture is fine!) but this isn’t one of them. To each her own & good for you for being able to do it!
Anonymous
Ha, I can paint walls like a pro but would never ever attempt to paint furniture.
pugsnbourbon
I’ve hired someone to paint my kitchen and I’d do it again. I am not the neatest painter and the thought of taping off all the cabinets gives me hives.
Minnie Beebe
I agree that painting is a fairly doable DIY project. But I don’t know where you’re buying paint that you’re spending only $20/gallon… Maybe I’m getting ripped off, but a gallon of mid-level Benjamin Moore paint costs $60-70 in my neighborhood.
Also, don’t forget about brushes, rollers, paint tray, blue tape, drop cloth, and other miscellaneous items required to paint– good quality brushes and rollers are worth every penny, but they do not come cheap. And if there are any repairs needed (patching/sanding/priming) it can get time consuming as well (lots of waiting and cleanup.) Unless I already had the necessary tools to do the job, and *wanted to spend an entire weekend doing the work*, I’d recommend just hiring the super to do it.
anon
Seriously. I just spent $55 on a gallon of SW paint. Yes, paint is still a cheap improvement compared to most home stuff, but I question anyone who is spending 20 bucks on a can of paint!
But more to the OP’s dilemma, I would be completely OK having the super do this paint job. I’m a competent painter and have painted many rooms, but your time is also worth something. The only time I’ve brought in pros was when I had a ceiling height + staircase configuration that was impossible to work around without scaffolding.
anon
It was a typo – I meant to say $30. I bought some paint earlier this year for that much.
$60-$70 seems pricey!
Anon
I’d hire the super, while yes it’s on the easier side of things, having someone who’s done it before and probably a lot is like having a mani-pedi place do your nails v DIY home manicure. In both cases there’s a paint on the wall, but a more professional application always looks better.
Anon
Painting is easy. I did it as a child.
Anonymous
I’m the least handy person on the planet and I painted the walls (not ceilings) in my house by myself. I had someone else do the ceilings because it’s physically taxing, and also there were some nail pops and minor cracks that needed tending.
Anon
Ditto the others that I helped mom with it when I was a kid. Ditto other that all you need is a $30 gallon of paint, a $10 brush, a $10 roller and a couple hours.
IMO you only need professional painters when you have two-story rooms, a historic building that needs special treatment or you have way more money than time.
Anon
I painted my entire 900 sq foot apartment in one day with a friend. Your super can more than handle this.
Anonymous
Painting is not a low-skill job, but it is a job that you can 100 percent do to a satisfactory DIY level at your home, if you want, and that includes the super.
A professional painter might:
have better technique
have better tools
have better time management skills
have more consistent results
know how to deal with difficult surfaces and angles
know how to fix mistakes
have better material knowledge, both the paint itself and tools
etc.
I think that if you do choose the super – and you probably will – you need to keep the mentality that he is YOU. He is you and your husband DIYing with a proxy. So you choose a DIY level. That is absolutely fine! And if there’s something uneven or a drip or a place that would have needed sanding, that is FINE because you DIYed.
anon
What are your favorite easy chicken recipes? I’m going to visit a friend and need things to make for dinner for her family (pregnant friend+husband+3YO). I eat vegetarian at home so I could use ideas!
anon
Crock pot salsa chicken!
Cb
Oh that’s so sweet! My MIL made a meal so bad for me while I was 8 months pregnant that I nearly cried, I’d have welcomed someone coming and cooking a nice meal. I haven’t made it but I think it’s decently easy and delicious, a thai green chicken soup.
Anon
I actually just made this crockpot chicken soup recipe over the weekend. My 2 year old loved the tortellini, so I’m sure a 3 year old would like it too.
I just pulled this randomly from a google search. But turned out well. https://realhousemoms.com/crock-pot-chicken-tortellini-soup/
Elegant Giraffe
This will be a hit with the 3 YO (but isn’t great leftover/made ahead of time): https://www.myfoodandfamily.com/recipe/091459/cracker-crusted-parmesan-chicken
Anon
I’m a vegetarian but I sometimes cook chicken for my kid and husband. I usually buy like a package of organic boneless skinless chicken thighs, toss them with something, and bake them. It’s so simple to cook it in comparison to cooking stuff on the stove. Jo Cooks has some oven baked chicken thighs recipes that involves some sort of honey mustard glaze that my husband says is great. There’s an Epicurious recipe for grilled chicken tacos that gets great reviews, too – sometimes I bake that chicken instead of grilling it and serve it with Mexican food. Stores like Wegmans also have pre-marinaded chicken – you just stick it on a sheet pan and bake it. Use a meat thermometer to test for doneness.
Curious
I know this is not helpful but I am so impressed by a pregnant woman who can eat chicken. I’m just now shaking the aversion 8 weeks postpartum.
Senior Attorney
Curious, I was late to the weekend thread but I’m sending you lots of love and support!
OP
No chicken aversion, but she said she can’t do black beans right now (obviously very unhelpful for my purposes because that’s half my diet, and also of course they live in a country where that’s a dietary staple).
Congratulations on your new one, and this internet stranger is also sending you good thoughts for what you’re going through now.
OP
Hi all – thanks for the suggestions! I should have mentioned they don’t have a crockpot or anything similar, but all good ideas.
Anan
One method i find really easy for me is to use some kind of simmer sauce (like a curry or a mole) and just simmer chunks of chicken thighs in it and eat it with rice or naan.
If it’s something you can make there, America’s Test Kitchen has a oven fried cornflake chicken recipe in their kid’s cook book that is really simple. Basically marinate chicken in buttermilk, coat in crushed up cornflakes and spices, and bake.
anon
I’m in the weird confluence of imposter syndrome, burnout, and being given a ton of responsibility despite being one of the most junior members in my office.
I have a great reputation with everyone except my bosses – they’re fed up with how long it takes me to work on things, but it’s taking me long because I’m very burnt out. I’m burnt out because I ran a major operation for my organization (that was LEVELS above my paygrade). The operation went pretty well, but could have gone better if I had had some training/support from my organization. My boss’ boss just added me to a pretty high profile committee, but then dropped a ball with my main role and made a mistake on a project that I work on with another team – I was sick to my stomach all morning today about these mistakes which feels excessive. I was fearing that I would get fired or put on a PIP by my supervisor for not meeting an internal/made up deadline, and I was afraid that the team I work on the other project with would lose respect for me as a coworker and not support me in the future. I’m kind of feeling like my work life is like a house of cards – one wrong move and the entire “facade” I have of being a great employee will come crumbling down; because of burnout I’m afraid that this will happen sooner rather than later, but my burnout stems from being given amazing opportunities well above my pay grade (but without the support I feel I need to be successful… and without getting the promotion/raise that feels aligned with the work I’m doing).
Just looking for tips, how to cope, experiences for those in simiilar situations.
For reference: Im actively job searching, I think a 2 week vacation to a warm beach would solve some of my problems but I don’t have the PTO or the funds to do so right now, and I would like to start therapy but have not done so yet.
Notinstafamous
I could have written this exact post 18 months ago. In fact, I might have!
What I did was realize my bosses weren’t going to change. An amazing opportunity without the support you need to succeed is just a trap.
I’d been clear on what I needed and why, i’d done all the right things and still got yelled at multiple times for dropping balls despite reams of emails explaining that I couldn’t bend the laws of physics and the balls were dropping.
So I dialed it back, started therapy, ramped up the job search, and quit as soon as I got a new role. That lets you start fresh without the legacy of burnout/mistakes.
If the PTB know what’s going on and aren’t giving you the support you need, that’s an active decision on their part. What you do to respond to that should be an active decision as well.
Good luck!!
op
I hope my job search ends with an offer soon!
I work in a male dominated field, and sometimes I feel like I’m set up to fail by leadership because I’m a woman who is doing well. I feel a little paranoid saying that, but I’m good friends with the other woman in my office in a similar situation and she too feels that way.
I love the work I’ve gotten to do – it’s literally been lifesaving work; however, the stress that accompanied it was insane.
Anon
“An amazing opportunity without the support you need to succeed is just a trap.”
This a thousand times over. I was in a situation in which I was given responsibility of a very large project with zero support; the entire point was to force me to fail. I succeeded; my boss became absolutely out of control abusive. I ended up quitting without another job and desperately wish I had done so earlier.
Anonymous
+1 sounds like an experience I had too
Elegant Giraffe
This sounds really tough. I am glad you are job searching. Taking a couple Fridays off would likely be helpful.
As the boss in a situation like this, I would encourage you to make sure you’ve discussed the pace issue with your boss. Sometimes employees try to avoid discussing the elephant in the room, and it just makes things worse – you will feel more tense. If you know they think you’re too slow, it’s OK to confront that. “Thanks for assignment X. I know you’ve been concerned about the pace of my work. I plan to do A & B on this assignment to address that.” Maybe you’ve already discussed this with them, in which case, great!
This will sound unkind, but your reputation with your colleagues doesn’t matter much at your current workplace if your superiors have a low opinion of you. So again, I’m glad you’re job searching. Your reputation certainly isn’t ruined for the rest of your career, but a bad case of burnout could take years to recover from…smart to get out as soon as you can!
anon
I think my issue is mostly with my direct manager – we definitely clash over things (including his workaholic tendencies, which I also had until I burnt out). So, when I have fires to put out,I put them out and then I wrap up while he will put out fires, and then stay until all of his non-urgent work is also complete. The putting out fires is often at the request of the directors and is urgent and higher priority that the other work. We were both in training last week; I did the training and that was it. He did the training plus a full week of normal work.
His boss (the director) and I have a passive aggressive relationship, but he definitely is impressed with the work that I do. Our issues come more from the fact that he allows a sexist, toxic culture to flourish in the workplace and I’m on the DEI committee and thus have called out some of these issues.
I frequently work on projects outside of my team, so I have an excellent relationship/reputation with both my peers and the managers/other directors who I often do work for, even if they’re not my direct chain. Despite my rank/age/experience, I’m often called on to assist when things are bad. But, I still feel like I don’t know what I”m doing, everyone thinks I’m better at my job than I am and one day I’ll let them all down, etc.
Anon
I think you need a mentor! It’s ok to not know how to do things or do them well. If you don’t talk about it nobody will offer you support.
op
I have a wonderful coworker friend who is a manager (just not my manager) who serves as a mentor to me. It’s his project where I made a mistake last week, which I think is making me feel even worse.
Anonymous
You need a mentor who is outside your company.
op
Honestly I’m not sure how to go about doing that – I work in such a niche field!
Anon
Have you talked about it with him? That’s the kind of thing you should be discussing.
Coach Laura
OP, it sounds like you could benefit from an outside mentor, in addition to a therapist. You might also consider hiring a career coach. If you want to email me at happy77peanut at the email of g, we can talk about potential career coaches.
Anonymous
Consider whether you might also have generalized anxiety that is making some of these things feel worse. When you describe feeling sick about mistakes, and worrying that the team will fire you or lose respect for you, that sounds a whole lot like anxiety to me. I would call a primary care doctor and ask for an evaluation. I knew I had to get help when I made a mistake and it was consuming me – I was sick to my stomach, couldn’t sleep or eat – and a colleague said, “This is not a big deal.” My excessive reaction made me realize I needed help. I got a Lexapro prescription and everything shifted back into focus.
This is not to say that your context doesn’t matter – it definitely does. But I needed meds to help me see things in proper context, rather than catastrophizing.
anon
Yes – as I mentioned above Im trying to get started with therapy.
I think the worrying about losing respect, reputation, etc. is very much so imposter syndrome but that feeling sick to my stomach about letting down the one coworker is anxiety.
CHL
I’m enjoying the Anxiety and Worry Workbook – Cognitive Behavioral Solution and finding it helpful for working through similar issues if you are having trouble getting to real therapy.
Anon
I was thinking this morning, randomly while walking the dog, that my parents and prior generations funded college (back when it was not as shockingly expensive) but generally had some sort of pension of at least one worker in the household (lots of teachers and govt workers and big-company-of-the-sort-that-used-to-have-defined-benefit-plan workers in my family). That all seems to have gone away in the 1980s (maybe sooner), so there is a generation of people paying for college now that only has a 401K/social security for retirement and is much less financially secure than my parents had it (and college is much more expensive). My kids are tiny and this aspect of math suddenly hit me like OMG I shouldn’t even focus so much on saving for them for college when my generation is probably pretty likely to outlive its $. [I agree that with longer life expectancies pensions are unsustainable and often tied people to jobs they would have preferred to have left, so I do not know what the answer is, just that today I feel a problem that I was a blithely not appreciating that I had yesterday.]
Anonymous
Nothing like starting Monday with yet another college anxiety dump.
anon
Hahah right? My response was yes and?
Anon
I don’t think it’s college anxiety. I think it’s retirement anxiety, which I like to pretend I don’t have except that I’m an office worker (so little chance of being injured or otherwise being unable to work) and expect to work until I’m almost in the grave.
Anon
For a lot of people college wasn’t even a realistic thing to aspire to. If I had been born 50-70 years ago, I’d be either working in a factory or cleaning houses.
Anon
You need to take a chill pill. Please stop this.
anon
I totally agree – late 20s, currently single/childfree so paying for the new gen’s college isn’t on my radar for over 20 years. However, I feel very concerned about my future financial status. I work in government (not federal!), and I honestly barely make ends meet despite having a white collar, degree required office job*; if working for the government can’t guarantee a livable income, then I think we’re screwed. I’m pretty frugal, but looking at my finances, I truly don’t know how I”m going to buy a car, pay for grad school, buy a house, have kids, send those kids to college, or retire. It kills me that not all that long ago, someone with a job like mine could support an entire family and now I’m struggling to support myself.
* caveat that obviously you shouldn’t need a white collar, degree required office job to make a good wage. My office starts people at 40k in a HCOL area – it’s criminal.
Anon
Yes, congratulations you’ve figured out what happens when organized labor all but disappears.
Anon
I don’t think I’d have had a unionized job if I had been born earlier. But jobs like accounting and nursing and teaching (not all states are union shops for teaching; I feel like that is a north-east thing and maybe in places like CA and Illinois) used to have pensions, union or not. So did law firms even (didn’t that sink one of the ones that failed in the recession?). I feel like taxpayer employers realized that actuarily, pensions don’t work or are too expensive to maintain and quit them for new hires. Employers that are taxing entities (states and cities/counties) probably know this but are totally in denial and are legally able to massively underfund their plans, so at some point those chickens come home to roost.
Anonymous
Only 5 states outlaw teachers unions and please reread and edit your posts the rambling is difficult to read.
Anon
A run-on sentence is not the way to make such a request.
Anon
I think that my state doesn’t outlaw teacher unions, but evenrything is done on a state-wide basis vs town by town. I don’t think they get to strike.
I know someone who worked for the IRS who was unionized, which I was always curious about. Dangerous factory jobs or where there is a big apprenticeship component are much more intuitive to me about what unions do (also: handling pensions and benefits where there are many small employers who pay in for those employees).
anon
My family is almost all blue collar jobs, government, or teachers. Some are union, most aren’t. . I have a pension and I think I have one aunt with a pension – she started with the government in the early 80s. The rest of us aren’t as lucky…
My aunt’s pension is like 50% of her high 3s, so she’ll be fine. My pension? If I retire from my job, it will be $1000/mo. If I leave after I’ve vested but before retirement, it will be $600. So even having a pension, it’s not nearly enough. I also save via a Roth, a 457b (my version of a 401k), investments and I pay into social security. I still dont know how I’ll retire!
Ribena
In other countries all jobs have unions. I work for a bank and we have multiple recognised unions who negotiate around our pay and benefits package.
Anon
There are loans for college; there are no loans for retirement. Saving for retirement is an excellent real life financial application of “put your own oxygen mask on first.”
Anonymous
+1 this is why community college exists. It’s still very affordable even in my HCOL area.
Anonymous
Community college is absolutely useless for most high-achieving students who have already exhausted the available courses through AP classes in high school. Community colleges also don’t offer many of the lower-division prerequisite courses required for majors. When I attended UCLA, every community college transfer I knew ended up spending a total of five years (two years community college + three years UCLA) mainly because they had to spend a year doing lower-division prereqs that weren’t available at community college.
Anon
I don’t think she was suggesting community college for high-achieving students who took tons of AP courses in high school. A student like that should be able to get a full ride scholarship to any number of decent four year schools. But community college is a good option for some kids and depending on your major and intended career path you may not even need to transfer to a four year school. I work in IT with a lot of people who got hired when they only had an associate’s degree. Most have since gone on to do a bachelor’s since it helps with promotion and compensation, but it was partially employer-funded and it wasn’t a pre-req for getting the job.
roxie
you know “high-achieving students who have already exhausted the available courses through AP classes in high school” is like .5% of students, right?
in fact, “high achieving” is probably like what, 10% of high school students? Most people in this country are mediocre at best but they still deserve an affordable college experience and a job that allows them build a sustainable family life without killing themselves and living off cat food when they’re 80.
Anonymous
And, former generations like my parents also had company provided retiree health insurance, which is also no longer offered.
Anon
My employer (large state university) still gives retirees the option to purchase health insurance. The premiums are a bit higher than what most employees pay (it’s a different plan though, so it may have better coverage) and it’s still a lot cheaper than purchasing insurance on the open market.
Anon
I don’t think pensions were that common even in prior generations. My dad has/had one as a state government attorney, but I remember my parents talking about how rare it was and how lucky we were that he had one. My mom had a college teaching job beginning in the 1970s and never had a pension. It’s definitely an incredible deal. My dad’s salary topped out in the low six figures, much less than he would have earned in private practice, but he gets 75% of the salary for life and my mom gets 50% for her life after he passes. Combined with their significant savings, they’re way better positioned for retirement than most people their age.
Anon
My dad had a pension that he was mostly vested in and then lost his job at 60 in a RIF. His actuarial value of the pension he was vested in got cashed out. He (wisely) rolled it over to a 401(k) so he didn’t pay taxes on that, but then had to make all investment decisions on his own (which he has only a basic background in, so if he put it in index funds and didn’t draw on it from 2008-2010, a big IF), he may be fine. But if he invested with Bernie Madoff or someone who churns his account, yikes. He can’t hear, so never calls whomever he has the 401k with and hasn’t shared his statements with me, so I *hope* he is OK but he isn’t one to complain. I wish he had a mortgage b/c they would be handling property taxes, but if he has paid it off (has been in same house for 30 years), then he may have forgotten about this and insurance.
TL;DR, at least with pensions, there is a person overseeing it. With putting that burden on people, I think a lot of “rich” on paper retirees will be ripe for financial mismanagement and outright financial abuse / fraud / theft, especially as their faculties decline.
Anon
I left my last job partly because my department manager had a pension. It had closed in the early aughts but long-term employees were grandfathered, and her salary was seriously depressed because of it. Any attempt her underlings made to get market rate was met with higher-level pushback that our asks were too close to her salary, which was (by my estimates based on my own requests) at least 40-50% under market rate. She just hung on waiting for that pension. Last I heard, the department was down to two people.
I don’t understand what they expect to happen. You can’t give one person the carrot and everyone else the stick.
baroque
Sadly I don’t think many pensions available today (which admittedly are few) will provide that well in retirement. I’m also a state government lawyer and am vested in my state’s pension plan. My pension is calculated based on my top 3 (I think) earning years and some multiplier, and when I retire, I’m set to receive about $1,200/mo. I think of it as my fun money in retirement, not actually part of my retirement savings.
anon
+1
I’m a county gov’t employee, and depending on how long I stay (20 years vs 25 vs 30, etc) and what my ending salary is, I’ll end up with somewhere between $700 and $1200/mo for my pension. It’s nothing to sneeze at, but it certainly won’t be funding my retirement!
Anonymous
FWIW, it doesn’t need to be like that, I’m in Canada and my pension will provide close to 4k/month same with my DH’s pension.
Anonymous
If it helps at all, I know exactly one person who has a pension; none of my family/friends has them. when I scan over “my parents and prior generations,” none of them had pensions. We don’t make as much money as women here often talk about making or saving. Yet we somehow all have found ways to live OK, send kids to college, retire, meet health needs, etc.
You’ve been in a certain family/friend culture where pensions were normal. But there are many other ways of living that have never included them, and life still turned out fine.
You’ll be fine.
Anon
Yes. This is the middle-class squeeze – we are all expected to fund our own retirement and our kids’ college education, while also owning a home (and all the expense that goes along with that), paying for our own health care, and also possibly helping to care for our elderly parents, many of whom have those inadequate pensions you mention. It’s too much for people to bear when wages (until very recently) have been stagnant since the 1970s. That’s why so many of us are pushing for Medicare for All, higher federal minimum wage, stabilization of Social Security, and free college (or community college) for everyone. No other first-world country on the planet expects their population to pay for everything U.S. citizens have to pay for. And no other country in the world is as violent or socially fractured as the United States. There is absolutely a correlation there.
Anon
+a million
Anonymous
If your kids are tiny, there is at least a sliver of hope that the college finance system will be overhauled before they get to college. I have a high school sophomore and am looking at $70K+ per year if she gets into one of her top choice schools. Tuition is rising much faster than inflation, fueled by the early admission scam (the only way to get in to highly ranked schools is to apply under a binding early decision program before you even see the financial aid offer, plus these schools don’t give merit aid) and the easy availability of federally backed student loans that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. At some point it will become unsustainable and something will have to give, but not soon enough for my family. We are of course encouraging our daughter to focus on applying regular decision to lower-ranked schools that give merit aid, but it’s ridiculous that students should have to make these choices.
Anon
This. The whole house of cards is set to come crashing down in about 10-15 years. Millennial college was funded by the efforts of two generations: their parents (usually Boomers, who overall, did quite well financially) and the debt that Millennials took on to attend. That means Millennials aren’t able to save as much for their children’s college and will likely be very hesitant to suggest that their own kids take on onerous debt. Prices are still set on “two generations pay for this;” in 15 years, there won’t be money from the older generation and the younger generation isn’t going to want to.
The crash is going to be epic. The question is how it shakes out.
Anon
“the only way to get in to highly ranked schools is to apply under a binding early decision program before you even see the financial aid offer,”
This just isn’t true at all. A few top schools, including MIT, Caltech and Chicago, still have non-binding, nonrestrictive early action. A bunch of Ivies have single choice early action so you can’t apply to five Ivy League schools early action but you can choose one and you aren’t legally committed to it and can still go to a different university. If you do EA at any of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc. you will definitely see the financial aid offer before you’ve committed to the school (and the financial aid offer from Harvard isn’t going to be meaningfully different than the financial aid offer from Yale. It’s need-based, not merit-based, and they all use the same formulas.)
Anon
I received vastly different needs based needs offers from Harvard vs Yale (much more generous at Harvard). My parents had no money, nothing saved whatsoever. This was in 2005, so obviously things change, but I would not necessarily assume parity across the board.
Anonymous
Back in 1996, I got much better aid from Harvard than Yale as well!
Anon
Can you explain this a bit more? How can a high school kid commit the parents’ assets to a college (in any sort of binding way)? Like 2022-2023 tuition probably isn’t even set yet (much less room / board / fees) and a lot of kids, even if they are 18, certainly can’t get the parent’s assets on the hook. Do parents have to sign somewhere (and then: what if one parent signs but is divorced? or one parent signs and maybe it’s a stepparent who has the $)? I didn’t do this for college b/c I couldn’t get the application done in time, but hadn’t realized that my first choice would have tied my parents’ hands. I just thought it was how you signalled “this is my first choice.”
Anon
They can’t. It’s inaccurate fear-mongering.
Anonymous
She obviously has not committed her parents to pay for this. Literally no where in the post does it say that. Please just get help for your anxiety.
Anonymous
You lose your deposit, which is in the grand scheme of things, nominal.
Anon
You don’t even normally owe a deposit until around May, so you would have the financial aid package well before then so there would be zero financial cost beyond the application fee (which you pay regardless of whether or not you get accepted). I imagine if you back out of Yale early decision, they could conceivably get your regular action admission at another elite private college revoked. But it’s not going to interfere with you going to State U, especially if you’re a kid with Yale-caliber grades and test scores. I work at a top 25 public university and we would be happy to have a kid who had committed to Yale early decision and backed out.
Anonymous
When you apply early decision, you sign a binding contract that if accepted you will attend the school and withdraw applications to other schools. There is some sort of out if you “can’t afford” the family contribution, but it’s unclear who determines affordability. You don’t see the financial aid offer until months after the admission letter, so even if you do get out of the contract it can be too late to apply to other schools. If you break the contract and other schools find out about it, they will rescind your offer of admission. Schools admit large proportions of their classes this way in order to inflate their yield rates. If you wait until regular decision, the acceptance rate is much lower and the schools may already have filled their quotas for your demographic (e.g., bassoon player who from rural midwest).
Anon
But again this ignores all the top private schools, including many Ivy League colleges and MIT, that have a non-binding early action option. Also plenty of people get in to these schools via regular action. The odds are not quite as good as early decision/action, which it’s why it’s advantageous to choose one preferred school and apply early, but to act like it’s impossible to get into a top private school through regular admission is disingenuous.
The reality is that most children in the US don’t go to their “dream school,” either because they didn’t get in or their parents couldn’t afford it. If your kid’s dream was Harvard but they have to go to Yale or even Northwestern or Michigan instead, they will be ok, I promise. It seems so important when you’re 17 and in the moment but even by your mid-20s you look back and realize it didn’t really matter at all, and now in my late 30s I know so many state U grads who are objectively more successful than many of my classmates from Fancy Private College. Send your child to the best school that a) they can get into and b) you can afford and it will all be ok even if that school is not what they’ve dreamed of.
Anon
Students have always had to make choices based on finances. Education is not exempt from the basic structure that there are individual limits on affordability. If you are not in a position to fund the $70k colleges, I hope this is a discussion that had been ongoing for years.
Anonymous
The problem with early decision is that it does not allow students a fair shot at deciding based on finances. Students should be able to compare all the aid offers before committing to attend any college.
Anon
Right. And this is why Early Decision is like legacy admissions in favoring the upper class. It does not change the statement that one must consider finances, which may mean that Early Decision is not viable.
Anon
I guess I don’t understand why these teenagers are pumped up to want to go to these expensive private collages. Is it because they’re told they have to do all of these unnecessary things in high school to get into them to follow their dreams? Parents feel like they have to send their kids there to show off how smart they are? It seems like someone is pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes. Why are so many student still attending these schools that seem like terrible deals? That $300k I hope is for a degree with lucrative job prospects. For most jobs, you’re not going to see much advantage going to a private college vs a state school.
Anon
“Is it because they’re told they have to do all of these unnecessary things in high school to get into them to follow their dreams? Parents feel like they have to send their kids there to show off how smart they are?”
Yes, and yes. Most affluent families I know, us included, are prepared to fully fund college at our very respectable in-state universities, and our kids are grateful they will get a college education at a decent school for free. Even teenagers are aware that many people need to borrow money even for the less fancy schools. It’s a very tiny, annoying subset of people that are fretting about not being able to afford $80k/year Harvard tuition for their precious highly gifted kids, and frankly I think if your kid expects that level of college support you’ve spoiled them. If the parents happen to be in a position to give you that level of support and choose to do so, that’s great, but it should never be the expectation, especially in this era where parents can’t count on pensions or social security and have to save very aggressively for their own retirement.
Anon
“It’s a very tiny, annoying subset of people that are fretting about not being able to afford $80k/year Harvard tuition for their precious highly gifted kids, and frankly I think if your kid expects that level of college support you’ve spoiled them.”
PREACH. Your whole comment nailed it, but I wanted to call that out specifically. We have been saving for my kid’s college since before he was born and will be able to fully fund him with no loans if he goes to either of the State U colleges in our state, both of which are great schools. If he wants go anywhere else he’s gotta cover the difference, and we’ve already had multiple detailed conversations about the crippling effect of high student debt. It is a very small subset of people who are fretting about not being able to afford the expected family contribution at a small private college. Either you have that money and you don’t have to worry, or you don’t have that money and you don’t have to worry because need-based aid will fill the gap. For the rest of us, our kids will go to colleges we/they can afford and you know what? They’ll be fine, because there are millions of people across America who didn’t go to an Ivy (or even an upper tier private school) and are doing great.
+ 1 million to the idea that any kid that thinks their parents are going to pay for them to go to their dream school regardless of impact to household finances is spoiled. Will add we have told our kid, if you don’t graduate from high school with high enough grades to qualify for scholarships, that’s a sign you need to take a gap year and work, and maybe consider trade school or the military. Because even when we’re talking about State U, someone who can’t hack it in high school isn’t ready for college.
Anon
I can answer this from the perspective of what we’re going through with our son. He’s in a charter school that’s very focused on college prep and getting kids into college. His friends are either in his same school, or are in local private schools. What we’re seeing is that the schools pressure kids to get into the best/most exclusive school they can, because then the school can say “we got X number of people into Harvard or Stanford” or whatever. There is very, very little discussion from the school about how expensive these schools are and what it means to take on $100k in debt at age 22 to attend one of them. The kids who get into these elite schools are fawned over and made much of, and the other kids see that and (of course) want that same kind of attention. We’re the ones having the long conversations with him about the benefits of attending a school where he won’t have to take out loans to graduate, especially because if he sticks with his current career idea (who knows if he will), he’ll have to go to medical school or get a Ph.D. to enter the career field. Our local State U has a great reputation and an excellent program for his field of study, and as a state resident he could attend basically free as long as his final GPA is high enough. No reason whatsoever not to do that vs. taking out six figures in debt for an undergrad degree, knowing there are many more years of study ahead. The only reason not to take the financially-sound path is because it’s less prestigious for the high school to say “we sent someone to State U” vs. “We sent someone to Harvard.” But that pull is powerful; I did not understand how powerful until my son started asking questions about why we think he should go to State U vs trying to get into an Ivy, which is an idea we had never broached with him (but did get broached by the high school guidance counselor). And don’t get me started on the mail, calls and emails he’s already getting from college recruiters that are filling his head with nonsense. We are going to have to hold a hard line on people selling our son dreams that he’d have to mortgage his future to attain. More than willing to entertain him going out of state and taking on reasonable debt if that really will serve him best. But attention Rensselaer Polytechnic, we’re not going to be advising our son to take out $50k a year in loans for four years just to get a bachelor’s degree. That’s crazy talk and we’re telling our son how crazy it is.
Anon
That’s funny, I went to grad school at RPI when they were trying to brand themselves as a “new ivy.” My lowly undergrad state school had way more research money. At least with RPI though he’d probably be doing a major that would pay off.
Anon
“At least with RPI though he’d probably be doing a major that would pay off.”
Sorry but no. There is no bachelor’s degree that’s going to get a 22-year-old a job that would be sufficient to pay off $200k in student loans (unless it’s working in investment banking and thanks to that Ask A Manager thread the other day, we all know what that’s like). In the hard sciences people need graduate degrees to advance and for many of the top jobs, they need grad degrees just to get hired. This is the scam that elite schools want people to believe – that somehow the money will be “worth it” and the degree will “pay off.” I have heard way too many horror stories about student loans here over the years to ever accept that it’s okay to tell an 18-year-old kid, sure, go ahead and sign up for six figures of student debt! It’ll be worth it! You’ll pay it off somehow! We might as well be loading up glass pipes with methamphetamine and telling high school kids to take a hit. It’s fine, you probably won’t get addicted! There are many many people benefiting off pushing kids to go to elite schools on loans and pay it off later. The students and their families are not the ones benefiting.
Anonymous
Agree 100% to avoid RPI if you have an Ivy League caliber kid. Unless it’s free, which for you might might be.
I went to Yale, and my parents paid. My roommate was from California. She applied and got into all the top UC schools. Her cousin paid for her to apply to Yale because “why not? you’re smart.” She had never left southern California until she boarded the plane for LaGuardia. Yale paid for everything- room, board, even transportation to/from CT. It ended up being cheaper than Berkley (full ride but no room and board) which is where she thought she’d be going.
anon
Honestly, I think this board jumps to “anxiety” because many people here are high earners and don’t have the same concerns as most of the country. I grew up in a working class family, and while things were tight my parents have a pretty good standard of living, that I definitely do not have.
As a life-long member of the middle class, I really am concerned about the costs of buying a house, having kids, sending kids to college. Most of my friends from college came from money and now make 2x what I do, so they don’t have these fears while they at times keep me up at night!
I work in county government, so most county employees are represented (in a union) and have pensions, get annual raises, and have good benefits. My office is non-rep; we have a meager pension (like $500/mo after retirement) but haven’t gotten a cost of living raise in 4 years. When we do get COLAs, they’re usually 2% which obviously is not keeping up with inflation.
I think if you’re making good money (with commensurate benefits, retirement plans, and raises keeping up with inflation), it’s easy to write off these concerns as anxiety. This board obviously skews high income, but even here there are a lot of us making 50kish a year. For those of us not as well off, the concerns about increased cost of living, cost of college, house prices, etc. are very well founded.
Anon
Yes, it’s a privilege to NOT be stressed about this! For most people, this is anxiety inducing for good reason.
Anon
I agree.
Anon
In general, the memories of pensions are better than the reality ever was. I remember seeing data several years ago about the percent of workers who had access to pensions at their height (maybe mid 70s-80s). It was shockingly lower than I had expected, and might even have been as low as the 10-15% range. In comparison, the proportion of workers who have access to a 401(k) is notably higher today than pensions at their height, something like 60%. If you are a white US citizen whose parents and grandparents were middle class or above, your recollection of the benefits of pensions are going to be very skewed from the broader reality.
Sarah
I need a pair of house slipper, preferably funny/colorful/animal shaped ones. Any suggestions?
Anonnymouse
I have a pair of these and they’re cute and practical:
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/503422?originalProduct=70223&productId=1623706&attrValue_0=Deep%20Red%2FBaby%20Goat&sku=1000077312&pla1=0&mr%3AtrackingCode=97F3ED9A-9447-EB11-810D-00505694403D&mr%3AreferralID=NA&mr%3Adevice=c&mr%3AadType=plaonline&qs=3125148&gclid=CjwKCAjwoP6LBhBlEiwAvCcthMvhaR6Is07Xb9pxbK34iJQJ6WLB3t9qV118DNPiq-pVBB27NMNXuxoCENYQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&SN=flyout_test04&SS=B
Anonymous
Boden rainbow slippers?
https://www.boden.co.uk/en-gb/fur-slider-slippers-multi/sty-a1015-mul
Mon
I adore my Haflinger slippers. They have a giraffe on them, the neck on one slipper, the head on the other. I also have some hausschue style Haflingers I wear more often but they’re not cute.
Blondo Insoles
I bought a pair of Blondo booties on the site’s recommendation and have really liked the shoes themselves. However, the insoles were of some subpar material and have completely shredded. Anyone have this happen to them? Any recommendations on what to add to the booties so that I can wear them again without giving myself blisters from the uneven footbed?
IL
I had this happen! And yes, the blisters were unfun.
I added an insole, but it’s not a perfect solution since it’s a very tight fit. If anyone has a better suggestion, I would also be interested.
Anonymous
I size up 1/2 size and use a really good insert. I like Superfeet.
Anonymous
Go to a cobbler/shoe repair place and have them replace the insoles. You can get thin leather ones and they can remove the shredded ones and glue in the new ones so they aren’t too thick. Shoe repair in general can be magical.
Anon
I have a roll of Costco carpet pad that I cut insoles out of (usually just for my shallow heel but have done full ones for a situation like yours too). It’s fairly thin and quite shock absorbent and does not make the shoe tighter. It has a non-slip padding in the back so it never slides in the shoe. If I’m putting it into open-heeled shoes, I glue it down with carpet tape which works really well.
Anon
I got a booster yesterday, and while I don’t feel nearly as bad as I did after the second dose, I am sitting here in bed with the cat on me really wishing I didn’t have to get up and go to work.
anon
Can you take a sick day?
Anon
If you felt the same level of lousy from something other than the booster, would you go to work?
Anon
I really hope the pandemic changed that calibration. And OP, if you’re going in physically, can you just WFH today?
Cat
lol, subtract the cat, and you have me on the average morning :)
Anon
I took a sick day after my booster. It’s fine to do that if you don’t feel up for working.
Anon
I’m getting my booster over Thanksgiving. If I feel bad, I will direct my family to get any sort of takeout that’s open and relax and watch TV and take some Advil. I may do that regardless :)
Anon
This is a good plan!
Anon
If you’ll be seeing anyone outside your household at Thanksgiving you should really get it a couple weeks before. It reduces the odds of infection dramatically, and will keep you and others safer. You won’t feel bad for more than 24-48 hours, so there’s no reason you can’t do it over a weekend.
Anon
This, exactly. Get boosted before you see people.
Anon
Nah, our only local relatives are refusing to get the shot (they swear they know someone who almost died from it, which I really doubt, but they are not budging), so we will be hermits.
Cat
Yup, we are getting our boosters this weekend so we are fully “cooked” before joining extended family. (Not sure if everyone will be boosted, but everyone is vaxxed and the older adults all got boosters in the last month, yay!)
Anonymous
I’m getting my booster later today so can’t blame side effects, and I already feel that way (probably a combo of the fun/stress of Halloween weekend, the weather and general malaise.) Good luck to all trying to get through a super case of the Mondays.
Anon
I appreciate how solutions-oriented this place is! But this was really just a vent. I am definitely feeling okay enough to go to work. If this were an actual illness, I would absolutely stay home. Unfortunately I can’t work from home without some planning ahead. I am also being very conservative with my leave these days, because I’m TTC and my employer does not offer parental leave.
anon
I was going to suggest taking a sick day anyways! I’m a fan of the booster is an excuse, but youre just generally tired and want a day to recover. However, totally understand that you’re trying to conserve leave.
Anon
Update for other people getting boosters soon: I took some Dayquil and I feel like a whole new person.
Claire
I am not exactly sure how this hasn’t come up in my professional life before – but when exactly do you take sick days?
The AskAManager question inspired this, and it turns out I have 7 paid sick days at work. Is this a normal amount / low / high?
If you need a surgery or procedure is that a sick day or PTO?
I get migraines sometimes and am low productivity for say half a day, is that half a sick day?
If its a matter of coming in late or leaving a bit early for a doctors appointment and making up the time later is it okay not to use a sick day for that? We don’t really have strict hours.
Cat
we don’t distinguish between PTO and sick days but I would 100% use the sick time for either surgery or a procedure or when you take time off (not logged in and low key working) for being ill. Like you could just take half a day as a sick day rather than trying to work through a migraine.
Since I’m not an hourly worker I don’t bother with PTO for an hour appointment here or there, the same way I don’t get overtime on a 12 hour day.
anon
I”m salary, but we very much have a culture of if you’re not working 830-430, then you have to take some sort of leave. It was the same way at my last job…
Anon
I never use sick leave for low productivity. Everyone has those days.
Being salaried means IMO that you can come in late or leave early when you need to without needing to “make it up.”
anon
+1 no one tracks my PTO/personal leave. I track it myself because I am paranoid, but I don’t use leave for an hr or two especially bc I am usually working 45 hrs a week anyway. It all evens out over the course of the year. I take “personal” time (which is our “sick” plus equivalent) whenever I want to.
Anon
It doesn’t have to mean that, though. An employer can make you use leave even if you’re salaried. So, that’s a know your situation kind of thing.
Anon
+100
I’ve always been salaried and every job I”ve ever had has required me to take leave for stuff like this. Even though I work more than 8 hours / day on the regular…
Anon
I work in state government and this is the policy, although some supervisors and offices are a lot more flexible. I used to work in an office where my coworker — who often stayed late to work on essential things — had to submit a leave slip because she left 15 minutes early once. It was so ridiculous.
Anon
That’s a normal amount. You use them to stay home when you’re sick and really shouldn’t be working, I also use them to bundle doctor appointments (it is also fine to not use for this, I just find it can be easier).
anon
After years of not having sick days (1 PTO bucket, but only 12 days!), having sick days but calling out was very hard (minimum staffing levels for safety, basically needed coverage to call out), and now finally having adequate sick time and the ability to use it, I’m very pro using sick time.
I get 12 sick days a year, and they roll over indefinitely (we don’t really have maternity leave, so this helps cover that). In the first 3 years at my job, I used 1.5 sick days. This year I’ve used 3.5.
Surgery/procedure is 100% sick time! There is no reason to use vacation time to cover that!! If its major surgery and you’ll be out for a while, you should use short term disability, but if its just a few days use sick time. (I used 2 of my sick days this year for having an outpatient procedure done).
Migraines are probably YMMV. I’ve used an hour or two here or there when dealing with insomnia, so I feel like migraines would be similar. I also used a half day of sick time when I had a terrible crick in my neck and literally couldn’t move my neck at all. I thought I’d pinched a nerve, but turns out I just slept on it wrong…
As for doctor’s appointments, your office might have rules on this. I’m allowed to use sick time for doctor’s appointments so I do. I still try to schedule them at the beginning or end of the day, but then just use an hour of sick time to cover the actual appointment.
Obviously any time you are sick, use sick time.
Anon
I think that’s fairly average for the US although it seems so stingy to me. I’m lucky to work for a place with more generous sick leave. I technically have 100+ days per year, although I could not use anywhere near that many without a doctor’s note and/or taking formal leave.
I take sick days any time I’ll be non-productive for most of the day. Definitely for surgery and migraines. I’ve used it when my kids are sick and home from daycare. I’ve used it for mental health issues as well. If it’s just a 1-2 hour doctor’s appointment and I’ll be working the rest of the day I don’t use leave. I just block the time on my calendar and let me people know if necessary.
Anon
*”I take sick days any time I’ll be non-productive for most of the day”… of course I meant if I’ll be non-productive due to my own or a family member’s health issue. If I’ll be non-productive because daycare is closed for teacher development, it’s not appropriate to use sick leave. I have personal days I can use in those situations and of course vacation time can be used for whatever you want (although I try to save it for actual vacations).
Anonymous
I have a combined PTO bucket, but you may want to check if your company has a policy defining when sick days can be used – e.g., for a family member’s illness, for doctor’s appts, etc. Also think about how sick time and PTO roll over or expire (sick is often an annual allotment that may not roll over).
If your policy doesn’t have any limitations, I would say sick days are for something medical (illness, doctor, recovery) and PTO is for non-health-related plans (vacation, etc.)
Anon
I manipulate what I use based on the job’s policies.
My last job was very critical of sick day use and gave us a piddling amount. Using then wasn’t worth the scrutiny, so I saved them for major procedures (endoscopy, etc). My boss was good about letting me make up time if it was less than a quarter of a day, so I scheduled appointments for first-thing or last-thing and worked through lunch that day.
My current job rolls over sick days but not vacation, so I’m more inclined to use vacation and hoard sick days. Once I hit the sick day roll-over ceiling, then I start using sick days.
(Note that I am fully remote, so “will I infect colleagues” isn’t part of the math here.)
pugsnbourbon
It depends a lot on your office culture. This is the first job I’ve had with separate buckets for sick time and PTO. Here’s how I do it:
– If I have a medical appointment that takes me offline for more than an hour, I’ll take sick time. I can take sick time in any increment; this isn’t true everywhere.
– If I have an early morning/late afternoon appointment, I usually flex the time.
– When I had surgery last year I used sick time.
Anonymous
I always wondered whether people take sick time for ordinary doctors appointments. Like you’re not sick but also it’s really cruddy to have to use vacation time for preventive care.
PolyD
I’m boggled when people DON’T use sick time for regular doctors appointments! I assumed that was what sick time was for – I mean, obviously it’s for if you are sick, but I assumed it was for any activity pertaining to health.
I’m lucky and only worked one place where the managers were jerks about leave. They thought that if you took an hour to go to a doctors appointment, you should take the whole day as sick leave or work an extra hour to make it up. That place also wouldn’t let you take 3 or 4 days off in one week – you could take 1, 2, or 5 days, but they thought if you took 3 or 4 you wouldn’t get good work done the remaining 1 or 2 days, so you couldn’t take off that amount. So dumb.
anon
I just roll in an hour late or take a long lunch or leave an hour early for doctors’ appointments. I could use sick leave for them, but my hours aren’t highly scheduled, and there could be any variety of reasons I’m a little late to work or am taking a long lunch. My male colleagues come in late when they get their hair cut, so I’m certainly not going to sweat a doctor’s appointment.
Anon
I’ve never taken formal sick leave for a doctor’s appointments, and I have a lot (I have thyroid autoimmune disease and have to see specialists every few months, plus blood draws once a month). In pre-Covid times I would just give my boss a heads up that I’d be coming in a bit late, leaving early or taking a longer than normal lunch. Now I just block the time on my calendar so I don’t get a meeting schedule then.
baroque
I use sick time for anything having to do with 1) feeling unwell myself, 2) any medical appointments or procedures for myself or family members I’m caring for, 3) child is sick, 4) a daycare closure that means I’m responsible for childcare, ex. shutting down for covid or hand foot mouth disease, 5) any pregnancy or childbirth reasons I’d need to be out (any prenatal appointments, blood tests, ultrasounds, maternity leave).
I get 12 sick days per year that roll.
That being said, I don’t actually take sick leave unless I’m offline for at least half the day. I usually book medical and dental appointments in the morning, so I can drop off kids at daycare, run to a 9am appointment, then be in the office by 10 or 10:30am. I don’t take leave for that and figure it comes out in the wash.
baroque
Also vision and dental fall under this philosophy for me. I used two sick days for lasik because I didn’t want to go into work and deal with the obnoxious fluorescent lighting right after my procedure.
Senior Attorney
I totally do this. I think of it as “medical leave” and nobody has ever batted an eye.
Anon
Wouldn’t you have to stay late, though, to make up for the missed time? I’d get fired for mischarging like that.
Anon
Most exempt employees don’t ‘charge’ their time. Some days I work 6 hours, some days I work 10. It mostly comes out in the wash and honestly even if it didn’t what matters is that I get my work done, not that I’m at my desk for precisely 8 hours per day.
Anon
You must not have government customers. Lucky you!
Anon at 1:03
I actually work for the government. There seems to be a lot of variation across government entities and agencies in terms of how much time tracking there is. But I think the point stands that a lot of people work for employers who don’t track exempt employee time that closely.
baroque
As long as I work the correct number of hours in the two week pay period, I’m good. I often come in early or stay late for meetings or to get work done or frankly just to avoid traffic, so as long as I’m putting in enough hours across my “timesheet,” I don’t have to make it up any single day. Like I said, it comes out in the wash.
anon
– I use sick days when I am out of the office and unavailable to work for health reasons–mental or physical, mine or my child’s. Surgery definitely would count! I’ve also used it to recover from an IUD placement, to recover from a migraine, for stomach/gastro issues. My husband is a SAHD, so he generally takes care of our son’s doctor appointments and illnesses, but I’ve used a sick day when my son needed surgery.
– I receive 6 sick days per year, which seems on the low side. I used to need them all, but since Covid started, I haven’t needed that many because masking seems to be a good way to prevent other communicable illnesses.
– I take any PTO in half-day increments. I do not take a sick day for a doctor’s appointment that’s just an hour here or there. I also wouldn’t use one if I was legitimately working from home, though in my facetime-oriented workplace, that would only happen if I were trying to take PTO and ended up responding to something urgent. That’s rare though, because the flipside of my facetime-oriented workplace is that they respect people being out of the office when sick or on vacation.
DCQ
I need ideas! I am a manager of a team of 20 — need ideas on how to celebrate them, remotely, for the end of the year. Last year I sent gift boxes, and I can do the same but I’m not feeling very creative. Looking to spend ~15-20 per staffer. Ideas, please!
Anonymous
Half day off (without requiring PTO) or full day if you can swing it. That’s ALL I would want.
anon
+100!!!
Anon
+1 million.
DCQ
I don’t control that unfortunately.
anon
Can you request it and go to bat for your team?
Anonymous
Can you send them a hold for a 4 hour meeting on Friday from 1-5pm and then let them all go home/ stop working?
anon
Suggested something similar below, I think it’s a great compromise.
Anon
Pre-covid, I did a “disaster planning” that involved my team leaving, remoting in, accessing the department’s checklist, confirming their contact info, and that ended the “exercise”.
Anon
Depending on the workplace she could get fired for that.
Pompom
THIS.
I truly appreciate the grateful thoughts when my org sends me a gift, but I usually don’t want/need/fit into the gift itself.
When they gave us a non-chargeable (ie free) day off of our choosing within a 2 week span recently, I was overjoyed.
Anon
Aesop hand cream – it’s lovely and the packaging makes it feel special.
anon
Way too personal from a boss!
Anon
Hand cream? After a couple of years of hand washing constantly? I got this from my boss last year and loved it. So did the men on our team.
Anon
Agreed, don’t give something like this that most people have strong personal preferences about. I have allergies and have to use hypoallergenic lotions. I have several friends that also have to use allergy-friendly stuff or use something specific to a skin condition like eczema or oily skin or whatever. This seems like a gift that at least half the people are going to throw directly into the trash.
Anon
So easily re-giftable though!
Anon
I would rather have something I can actually use though? I just don’t know why you’d give something like this knowing many people can’t or won’t want to use it.
Anon
Clearly you’ve never tried this luxury lotion!
Anon
Correct, I haven’t because I have sensitive skin and need to use hypoallergenic lotions. From talking to friends, I’m not alone in this.
Anon
Target gift cards
anon
agree that the best option is PTO, if you’re authorized to grant that. If you’re not, maybe have a zoom “retreat” for your team and basically say stay available by phone, in case something pressing comes up, but use this time to “reflect”. My employer did this after a huge project, we all got a “work from home day” (pre-pandemic) where we were supposed to “reflect”, but really it was an extra day of PTO.
If you can’t do PTO, I’d cover lunch for everyone one day or a visa gift card.
Cornellian
Smart!
Anonymous
– Trio of small hand sanitizers in holiday scents
– Hot chocolate, marshmallows, and maybe a mug, all preferably from a local shop
– Local bakeries or chocolatiers will have cute gift boxes, I’d get macarons or chocolates or similar.
anon
If I get one more mug I will lose my mind!
anon
Yea I want none if this. Cash money or PTO or GTFO.
Anon
Almost universally, employees say they’d rather get nothing than a token gift like this. There are posts across social media with people recounting the token gifts they received from their managers and how it made them feel (hint: not good). It’s better to give people a Starbucks gift card for the equivalent amount that would have been spent on the gift than it is to give a gift like any one of these. These kinds of gifts become especially egregious when the company then goes on to report record revenue or profits for the calendar year after the holidays. So, we made $20 million more than we thought we were going to this year and I still just got this hot cocoa sampler box as a holiday gift? Cool.
Anonymous
It’s a whole different thing if the COMPANY is giving it versus your individual manager who is paying for it out of her own pocket. OP isn’t asking what the company can do for her team, she wants to get something for them herself. I think it’s very thoughtful.
Anon
1. You’re really overestimating employees’ ability to pick apart what the company does vs. what the manager does. I did a survey one time where it emerged that people thought managers were given bonuses to pick out employee gifts and could keep some of the money for themselves. Not true; all gifts to employees came out of the managers’ pockets. But because of weird social-cultural customs about taking credit for gifts, managers didn’t clarify, and so employees didn’t know.
2. Even in a situation where it is clear the manager is gifting, the perception of a $10 gift being given in exchange for “all the hard work you’ve done this year” is…not good. You can go read for yourself, on Reddit and elsewhere, how people feel about token gifts. Everyone upthread has it nailed: time off is really the best gift. If that can’t be given, a heartfelt thank-you is better than hand sanitizer.
Anon
+1 million.
Anon
Please don’t make them attend a “party” on Zoom after hours, like my company is doing.
Anon
Thisssss.
Elegant Giraffe
I am not great at this and also can’t give time off or gift cards, like others have suggested. But for a team of 20, I think you can write a genuine note of appreciation to each staff member (with a Starbucks gift card, if possible).
Cat
I have been inundated with giveaway hand sanitizer and have started giving it away! In order of how much I’d like the item….
1. PTO and heartfelt thanks
2. Easy to use gift card like Target
3. Small consumable item like chocolate
4. Anything “Covid related” a la hand sanitizer… I am swimming in the stuff but at least it’s useful
…. large gap ….
5. Anything “mandatory fun” like a Zoom party.
Anon
DC ladies – I need new clothes in a hurry, so I need to shop in-person. I have one entire day I can devote to driving around and shopping. With all the supply chain problems, I’d like to go to the biggest, best-stocked stores for the best chances of finding things. Where in the DC metro are your favorite locations of J.Crew, J.Crew Factory, Talbots, Talbots Outlet, Brooks Brothers, and Brooks Brothers Outlet? Thanks!
Anon
Tysons Corner
Allie
+1
Shelle
+1
Anonymous
I go to the Talbots in Friendship Heights. It’s near other mall options. Looks like this is work clothes. Maybe also try the downtown MM La Fluer? They’re open Wednesday for appointments, and I’d flag you’d need things you could walk out the door with.
Katherine Vigneras
Gotta do Tysons. Not only the most stores, but the biggest ones of each brand. Good luck.
Katherine Vigneras
And for Factory, National Harbor.
Anonymous
Can an attorney be a trustee in an estate, represent both beneficiaries in same estate, and represent the estate as the executor’s attorney (executor is one of the beneficiaries) or is that just too many conflicts of interest.
Anonymous
Are the beneficiaries husband and wife?
An.On.
An attorney who represents both the estate AND the beneficiaries? That doesn’t sound good – why do the beneficiaries need representation? If they’re in a dispute with the estate, it seems obvious the attorney can’t be on both sides. If you mean, the beneficiaries use the same attorney as the estate does on their own but separate legal matters, I think it’s okay (unless and until there is a dispute). For example, an attorney who represents multiple generations for estate planning wouldn’t have to recuse themselves necessarily on estate administration. Just saw you posted the beneficiaries are a second spouse and child – I foresee danger there, blended families can be a real bad mix of competing interests.
Anonymous
No 2nd wife and child (executor)