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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
I always like a good Vivienne Westwood jacket — they're feminine but also a bit — I don't know, gutsy somehow. I particularly like the stripes on this one, and the interesting way that the stripes on the collar go in a different direction than the stripes on the jacket — and I'm always a fan of the fitted, shrunken look. It's on a pretty great sale at Zappos Couture (but yes, still a splurge) — it was $1087, now $489.38 (sizes 4-10 still left as of this AM). Vivienne Westwood – Z780103-04 (Grey Stripe)
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(L-2)
Sales of note for 9.16.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 30% off wear-now styles
- J.Crew Factory – (ends 9/16 PM): 40% off everything + extra 70% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Extra 25% off all tops + markdowns
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
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Anon for this
I think the jacket looks a bit too tight on the model for the office… it looks more like the “suits” that celebrities wear to events.
Threadjack (apologies): I’m currently clerking for a fed. dist. ct., and… I hate it. It’s really souring me on the judicial process, for a variety of reasons. I always thought I’d do litigation, but now because of this experience, and because I’ve heard there are better exit options, I’m seriously considering asking to switch to corporate, on at least a 50% basis, when I return to the firm I summered at.
My questions: Would the year I spent clerking be a lost year if I did corporate? Have any of you found yourselves in this position? I’ve been asking as many people as I know what the corporate side is like, but I still don’t have a clear picture. I did do one project in corporate as a summer.
Just any general advice would be great… feeling a little lost.
lawyerette
I know many people who clerked never intending to do litigation. I still think it’s helpful, to think about what could happen in this deal and how might you try to avoid it. It keeps it on your mind. There are TONS of flavors of “corporate work.” And if your firm has a big corporate practice there’ll be many different departments. What is it that you hate about your clerkship experience exactly? Perhaps the lawyers here can help point you in the direction of something you’d like more, whether it’s a specific type of litigation-type work or even a specific type of corporate work.
Anon for this
Thanks, that’s great to know that it’s not abnormal to clerk then do corporate. Maybe I’ll check out the firm website and contact people in corporate who’ve done just that.
As for the clerkship experience… well… I see what’s it like to practice before a difficult judge, and how much it can spoil the experience for everyone involved. I also see how the sausage is made, so to speak, and how much cronyism and play a role. Advocating for a cause one believes in is discredited. Maybe I’m just having a one-off experience, but it’s making me want to run for the hills.
I also think, generally speaking, the adversarial posture is not one I like. I’d like to work to prevent matters coming to that.
lawyerette
Your experience does not sound like a typical clerkship experience to me. You might want to talk to friends/firm colleagues who’ve clerked and try to get a sense. I did an appellate clerkship and yes, you see how the sausage is made, but it was pretty much what I expected and nothing as bad it sounds for you.
As for working to prevent matters to get to court — that is ALL litigators at big firms (defense side) do. Yes sometimes they’re in court, but they don’t WANT to be there because clients don’t want to be there. Most cases don’t get there.
Corporate work is not about litigation at all, or preventing litigation. It’s about business. It’s about buying/selling/getting stakes in companies, writing language in contracts, etc. I’m a litigator so corporate folk please feel free to disagree. But that is my impression.
And even at my big (1000+ lawyer nationwide) firm, splitting between corporate and litigation is not a good idea. Most of the people who got laid off recently were splitters because they never did enough work for any group of partners such that they would stick up for them.
So Anon For This
Your initial interest in clerkship suggests you have a little bit of an academic bent, and the fact that you got a federal clerkship means you are a smart chica … can I just throw out there that a corporate practice is mind-numbingly dull and not particularly intellectual at all, as I learned the hard way. I recommend corporate to “people” people who find job satisfaction through networking, relationships, etc. and not through the intellectual challenge of the work itself. Also, you have no control of your schedule in corporate practices – you are at the whim of the client to a far greater degree than you will be in a litigation practice.
I think a lot of people fresh out of law school (myself included) say similar things about not being adversarial, etc. and then default into corporate. And then are miserable. I eventually found my way into a more regulatory practice, and I’m far happier – there is a real intellectual component to what I do now, which is important to me, and I have to keep learning and on top of an area of the law, which is something you don’t really have to do in a corporate practice. You may want to consider looking into one of these more hybrid areas at your firm.
lawyerette
Very good point. Labor and employment and tax come to mind.
Anon for this
Very interesting… so you tried corporate, and didn’t like it. Back in law school, I had a suspicion that corporate work was less intellectual, but I’ve since talked to corporate attorneys who are somewhat defensive on that point, so I thought perhaps I was wrong.
As far as regulatory practice, you’re referring to things like FDA, ERISA?
Also, am I wrong in regarding corporate as affording more exit opportunities later on, for in-house counsel and such?
So Anon For This
@Anon for this – Yes, its less intellectual. It doesn’t mean that the people who do it are stupid, by any means – there are absolutely brilliant people in corporate groups – but the day-in, day-out is very much not that challenging. From what I’ve seen, the people who are happy in corporate practice get their job satisfaction from the constant interaction with clients, the networking, the thrill of getting the deal done or of accomplishing tangible things (i.e., its hard to see what you create in litigation, but after a merger is closed and you watch comanies integrate, you really do see the tangible effect of your work.) If you feel you need an intellectual challenge in your job, I wouldn’t recommend corporate … just my experience. Or, they are riding it out for an in-house opportunity, which is definitely easier to get from the corporate side.
People get defensive because in many firms litigators look down on corporate as not truly practicing law, which is just one of those silly culture wars that goes on in firms.
Regarding regulatory practice, yes, I’m talking about somethign smilar to FDA/ERISA – it has been a good fit for me, so far.
Anon for this
@ So Anon For This
Great, thanks. I REALLY appreciate your help.
cbackson
Hm. I practice both regulatory and corporate law (an unusual combination, I know, but it’s because I belong to a practice group that’s defined by industry, not by where it falls on the lit/corp continuum). I think it really depends on what sort of work you’re doing, because my experience is that the corporate side of my practice does require me to keep learning and is intellectually challenging.
If you’re a straight-up deal lawyer, without an ongoing relationship to clients, I can see how it might be dullsville. But at my firm, corporate attorneys are the lawyers with the closest relationship to the clients day in and day out. I have to be absolutely on top of what’s changing in the law and in their industries. My industry is heavily regulated and somewhat politically unpopular, and as a result, my clients have to involve their clients in their long and short term strategic thinking. It requires top-notch problem-solving skills, as well as the ability to anticipate problems before they materialize.
Sure, I don’t spend as much time writing memoranda of law (although I do that, when we see a problematic change in the law arising, and need to lay out for our clients how to respond), but as someone who is pretty “intellectual” (I’m an adjunct prof, teaching straight up doctrinal classes, at a well-regarded local law school), I think that there are types of corporate practices that do have that dynamic.
That said, if you’re at a big shop doing lender-side credit facilities, or churning through deals for clients that you barely know, I think it would be soul-sucking and incredibly boring.
L
Ditto. Perhaps tax or ERISA, or even T+E (if you are going to a firm with a T+E practice that will involve research).
LawyrChk
@So Anon for This, this is well-said. I am in corporate (M&A) and happen to love my job, but I don’t many people would. Yes, there are some routine parts, but I work regularly with business people and non-lawyer types, and each portion of my projects can be broken into manageable pieces with short-term deadlines. FWIW, I was deciding between an MBA and law school, and I actually enjoy business issues and strategy. If business and numbers are boring to you, you probably would not care for corporate work of the type that I do.
Nonnymouse
You haven’t even started as a lawyer yet, you can totally switch departments, jobs, etc. and don’t worry about it. It’s your life, you aren’t even a 1st year. Do whatever will make you happier.
somewherecold
Clerkship experiences seems so judge-dependent. Can you sit in on some parts of trials in front of other judges? When I was an intern with a federal district judge, it was interesting to see other judges for the variation. I’m currently an appellate clerk in a state highest court, and sometimes I’ll sit in on parts of trials, especially when there is something high profile in the courthouse and I want a change of scenery. You could also go see appellate arguments, if you have the opportunity. Since you think you might be more interested in preventing matters from becoming full-blown adversarial issues, maybe you can try to see some mediations in the courthouse with a magistrate or another judge (you should definitely check with your judge on this beforehand, though, and make sure your judge is not going to be the one handling the matter if it goes to trial).
I’m not saying this because I am trying to convince you that litigation is for you or something, but I think that having a broader picture might be useful, and, at the very least, maybe it could help make your clerkship a little more bearable.
Anon for this
Well… we’re not really allowed to leave while the judge is here… ha. My friends clerking in this courthouse do have better experiences. I guess it’s hard for me at this point to separate my individual experience with the general experience. That said, I’ve talked to people who say that while my judge is certainly not representative of all judges, there are others like him/her.
somewherecold
@Anon for this. I have heard stories about judges like this and what it is like to practice in front of them. For me, at least, I don’t want to let the idea that there will be some mean/unfair judges that will probably yell at me no matter what I do totally dissuade me from litigation (I’m kind looking at litigation versus regulatory work for myself, but not in biglaw). I think it’d be a matter of thickening up my skin and remembering that everyone feels the same way about that judge.
North Shore
I loved my clerkship, and felt really sorry for the clerks with the difficult judges — we all knew who they were, and one judge couldn’t keep a clerk for a whole year. They’d all quit because he was so awful.
That said, just so you know, practicing as a litigator is incredibly different from clerking in the courthouse. You get to delve into the facts of your case, meet witnesses, form relationships with nice people, etc. I’m on the defense, and I take great pride in preparing my witnesses, helping them feel confident in their depositions and at trial, in gathering facts to give my experts for their analysis, and so on. It’s just so much more rewarding to put together your case than to sit there and have things handed to you for decision, in my experience. In fact, a year after I started my job, my judge called to see if I could come back, because she had been promoted to chief judge. Although I loved her to pieces and she had just presided at my wedding, I ended up declining because I was just so excited about my job and my cases, and didn’t want to give it up. This isn’t to say that litigation is for you, but just know it’s different on the other side of the bench.
bizzy
This. Clerking teaches you a lot about what it’s like in court, but not much of a litigation practice happens in court — at least not for the smart, well-credentialed folks coming off of federal clerkships. Even in a case with a “bad” judge assigned, that assignment has only a very limited role in the degree of job satisfaction you can experience in helping your clients handle a tough situation.
Lola
Litigators spend most of their time avoiding court. So if that’s what you want to do – that’s what litigation is.
And kudos for you for even asking these questions. This is one of the reasons why it’s a good idea to do a clerkship, to figure out what you want to do.
I second the idea to talk to other clerks and other judges if you can. Would you judge support you checking in with other judges for advice? When I clerked, my judge often checked in with other law clerks.
Also, it sounds like your judge isn’t the most fun to work for. My sympathies. Perhaps another year of clerking (for another court) would be a good idea?
LawyrChk
Unless you are at a very small firm, splitting your time 50% corporate and 50% litigation sounds like a bad idea to me. The skills you develop as a corporate junior are very, very different from a junior litigator, and if you aren’t devoting full time to either group, your skills will lag behind your peers in both practice groups. Just my .02 as a corporate associate.
Anon for this
So your advice would be, decide now whether I want to take the plunge, and either go 100% corporate, or 100% lit? Do you have any tips on making that decision, things that I should consider, etc.?
I really appreciate the honesty.
hamburglar
I haven’t really heard of anyone who did a half-and-half deal. People get put in a group and then they work in it – it’s not like a summer associateship where you can ask different people for work. The only movement is within the field – you can be a commercial litigator and then maybe move into white collar and do some work for both groups, but it’s very rare to have someone be half corporate, half litigation. I’d be very surprised if your firm even let you do this. What the poster above said about different skill sets is true, and I can’t imagine that a firm would rather you be half-good at two things than great at one thing.
I have no idea what it’s like to be a corporate associate, I’ve done litigation from day 1. However, what the poster above said about litigation being intellectual rings true. I love litigation because a) I love to read, b) I like to learn a lot about one topic and c) I like to figure things out. I know this about myself because I see it in my personal life – I’m constantly reading and learning new things, and this translated well into my legal practice. I work at a small firm so I spend a lot of my time figuring things out (i.e., writing a motion as opposed to doc review or editing a brief) and it makes me happy. It really is an intellectual pursuit.
It’s very rarely adversarial. I talk to other lawyers and most times lawyers are nice people who want to do their work and go home, not get into knock-down brawls with opposing counsel. Most people will not pick fights over whether you get 5 days or 7 days to answer a motion. Obviously some lawyers can be difficult but that is true if you’re in corporate as well. It might actually be more difficult in corporate because you actually have to make a deal with the other lawyer, where in litigation you can just be like, “screw you, make a motion.”
Anon for this
First years and second years can do this at my firm (split between groups), but from what I’m hearing here, it seems ill-advised.
I relate to the way you described your interests in the second paragraph. Sigh. Still have a lot to work out.
AIMS
The things you say you dislike in your clerkship sound very similar to me to things I hear people complain about in corporate work.
You should really try to talk to those doing it full time to get a sense of what your life will be like, and whether the same cynicism & sausage making will become an issue.
explaw
Honestly, you don’t sound cut out for law firm life at all. If you don’t like what you perceive as cronism, you aren’t going to be happy with the politics of life as a firm, or the networking that is essential to excelling at a firm. Networking and relationships are particularly important in the corporate department. It sounds a bit like you don’t have the foggiest notion what a corporate attorney does (i.e. negotiate deals, and then paper them, and if you are a junior attorney, you are mostly just drafting the paper). Seems like you need to do a lot more research before you make your decision.
ex-clerk
Just to echo what others have said — it sounds like you are clerking for a tough judge. They are not all like that, and try not to let it sour you on the law in general. For example, I worked for an incredibly demanding (e.g., he once returned a 30 page draft to me with the note that ‘there is an error in here, find it and correct’) but incredibly bright and fair federal judge, and it was great.
I agree that a corporate practice won’t be challenging in the intellectual sense that you are used to. It seems more like the challenge is to keep up with the work and live with the unpredictable schedule.
However, I was also a litigation associate for a few years at a big east coast law firm, and I didn’t find that particularly intellectually challenging either. I’m now a prosecutor.
It seems like of my friends who have stayed at big law and have found some sort of balance/happiness are in more specialized sections with a bit of a regulatory bent, e.g., health care, employment law, mutual funds, etc. If you do well and establish yourself in one of these areas, it seems like there are a lot of good exits.
Explaw does not give good advice
A dislike for cronyism has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone is cut out for law firm life. I have found, actually, that skill is much more prized than any perceived cronyism at a law firm, especially for young associates. Also, if by “networking” you mean “saying hello to people in the hallway and striking up conversations at firm meetings and get-togethers,” then yes, one must “network.” One could also define this behavior as “being friendly.” Finally, it’s not a shock that Anon for this does not know what a corporate attorney does — virtually no one coming out of law school knows what *any* attorney does at a law firm, let alone what one does in an individual practice group. She is doing precisely what you criticize her for seemingly not doing — researching the field.
Aside from all that, there is one thing I know for certain: if someone comes asking for advice, and you respond by saying things like “you are not cut out” for something or “you don’t have the foggiest notion about” something, that person will never ask for advice and will dislike you. That is true whether the advice-seeker is a stranger on a message board, an acquaintance, a friend, a sibling or a child. If you can’t frame your response constructively, then don’t respond.
explaw
I think tone can be misinterpreted online, so I apologize if my advice was perceived as unfair criticism of the poster. I practiced in BigLaw for nearly a decade before moving to government. Many people, including a significant number who post here, accept big law jobs only to find that they hate the culture and are miserable (incidentally, I didn’t). What the poster dislikes about her clerkship is present at many big law firms, it may not be the best match for her.
I also think it is naive to think you can show up and say you want to work in an area that you know nothing about (kudos to the poster to start doing that research now, but I think she needs to also talk to people IRL, not just online) . I would encourage the poster and any law student to do their research before they show up. This is an area that men seem to do better, they are more likely to show up on Day One knowing what they want to do, what it involves, and who at the firm can give them that kind of work based on my personal observations at two Top 20 firms.
Finally, no one, male or female, suceeds in BigLaw on skill alone. You need to do good work, and you need to have partners who have clout within the firm like you. I call this cronyism, but it is what it is and it definitely exists. Law firms are not meritocracies, and if you go into knowing that (and whether you want to deal with that), you are going to be far better off.
As to knowing what different areas of practice involve,
Jade Moon
I am a small-firm full-time litigator. When the anon clerk wrote that she was dismayed by cronyism, I really thought she meant that the judge made decisions/rulings based not upon the law, but based on her/his relationships with the litigators presenting the case. Where I live, two of our federal judges so obviously rule in favor of their biglaw buddies — or those they went to law school with, those who children are in the same private schools or colleges, those who are neighbors or in the same clubs or on the same boards, those they knew while in private practice or thru political parties.
Just last week, one judge asked opposing counsel to stay behind a moment after our hearinag. I lingered (walked out of the courtroom slowly), and the judge and the opposing counsel discussed the wine selection at a party they had both attended the previous week! Opposing counsel told the judge that her wine selections were spot on.
Another judge golfs with opposing counsel and discusses their respective scores before the gavel pounds for the beginning of the hearing (And why is it that the judge always wins??)
. . . And, while I’m at it, I do suggest learning to golf — at least if you are a in a usually warm jurisdiction. Alas, my “sport” is reading thrillers.
Perception is definitely based on one’s own experiences. I never even considered that the anon clerk was discussing cronyism within a firm.
Go figure.
FormerClerkInAtlanta
Jade Mood, if you’re in a city the size of Atlanta or smaller, I think it’s inevitable that the judge is connected in some way. Some judges may rule based on that, but I firmly believe most rule on the law, regardless of connections. Especially in certain practice areas (business litigation, bankruptcy, etc) here, everyone knows everyone. Most often, the judge knows both sides.
Also, generally, I think you gotta be willing to play the game and love it to be a good attorney. The game isn’t just networking (although communication both socially and with opposing counsel is very important), it’s the strategy, the settlement neogtiations leading up to trial, the difficult judge at trial, everything.
Anon for this
@Jade Moon
That is the type of cronyism I was referring to, what you described. Stuff that has no place in the judicial system.
Lawgirl
I agree. No way would I shell out big dough for this jacket, Vivienne Westwood Shwestshood. Shrunken, tight, stripes equal Forever21 or Express, IMHO.
AKA
And the buttons!
Lawgirl
AKA, those buttons are HUUUUUGE! LOL.
Nancy P
Ditto on the tough judge. I clerked for one, and until I learned how to handle him (6 months into the clerkship) I was often miserable.
My firm definitely has non-litigators who clerked. It’s NBD.
Agree with the person who suggested regulatory or labor — try to think outside the corporate / litigation boxes. I feel like there are all sorts of practice groups that I never even knew existed in law school. And since they’re often smaller, they might let you rotate around more or try two at the same time.
LawyrChk
I may try to ask again on the Tuesday morning post, but does anyone know how Nordstrom prices refunds on defective merchandise without tags? I bought a beautiful Classiques Entier silk dress a couple of months ago and I wore it to work today (literally the third time I’m wearing it). I just discovered that the fabric on the rear seam has literally disintegrated and frayed, and now I’m stuck with a huge gaping hole on the back of the dress (luckily it’s lined, but I still live too far away to go home and change). I want to return, but I highly doubt I can find the price tag or receipt at this point and the dress is clearly Nordstrom and defective.
Thanks in advance.
As far as the jacket, it’s cute, but I think it even makes the model look a bit hippy because of the exaggerated flair from the waist.
Bets
If you remember how much you paid, demand a refund, and I’m sure you’ll get it. Not only does Nordstrom have an extremely generous returns policy, but Classiques Entier is one of their store labels. Since the piece is clearly defective, you shouldn’t have any problems.
As to the jacket, that exaggerated flair and cropped length would be perfect on someone petite and curvy–like me! Pity I can’t afford it, because I’m really digging this jacket.
Anonymous
its nordstrom — they should just take it back no questions. Ive taken shoes back there that I had worn for months
Bonnie
I think they can look up past purchases if you paid with a credit card.
K
I had a similar experience with a CE blouse recently, and Nordstrom would not give me a refund because I had originally bought it with a gift card + cash (so they weren’t able to find a record of my purchase). However, they did fix it for free while I waited, so I was happy.
jr. prof
I posted awhile back about my defective Joe’s Jeans from Nordstrom (broken zipper). Though I had the receipt, they also looked up the purchase and took them back, no questions asked. (They did ask if I wanted to exchange them for another pair, but I declined.)
Previously, I had an expensive pair of grey wool trousers from Nordstrom that split in the seat after a few wearings. I was really upset. They repaired the pants while I waited, and I still wear them. I think you’ll have good luck getting either a return or repair – which ever you prefer.
LawyrChk
Thanks for the response. I’m not sure the dress can be repaired without looking terrible and likely getting damaged again (not sure if this will make sense, but the dress fell apart the first time because the seamstress didn’t get enough of the fabric behind the seam, which is exactly what they’d have to do again to keep the dress from bunching around the new seam), so I’ll probably just ask for a store credit. I spend a pretty large amount of money between Rack and Nordstrom, so hopefully they’ll be nice about it and not make me want to shop elsewhere.
Ru
I hate to be super-critical but….this looks like something you’d find at Mandee’s. There are too many competing statement details.
AIMS
I agree. My first thought was Alice in Wonderland. . .
And, I normally love VW.
houda
I couldn’t help staring at the big buttons (they’re GIANT).
Nonnymouse
I think this makes the model look hippy, can only imagine what my actual child bearing hip sized self would look like. I’m assuming an aircraft carrier.
TR
Ditto.
nonA
Looks like a junior department find to me … not a serious work outfit.
Maybe cute on the weekend with jeans, but I’ve never understood the fun of wearing a blazer on the weekend. I have to wear a suit all week – why do I want to remind myself of that when I’m out on the town?
AnonymousFRA
I agree that it looks very juniors – I actually think I owned a very similar jacket, from Delia’s, circa 1996. And I wore it with jeans and a tshirt.
soulfusion
ha! this is my same thought process every time I’ve tried to style a blazer with jeans on the weekend.
Anon for this one...
Threadjack – big dilemma…one of my best friends (female) is dating a man who I think is gay. There are many facts etc. leading up to this conclusion including information from another trusted dear male friend (who is gay – I know that may sound cliche but it is what it is).
I am feeling incredibly uncomfortable and uncertain of what/if to say? My best friend has a history of unhealthy relationships.
Anon for this one...
Sorry – did not mean to confuse by using a similar name to “Anon for this” we are different people.
Anon.
Do nothing. What you have is hearsay. She’s dating him. It’s none of your business. If he is gay, she’ll find out soon enough.
AnonInfinity
Honestly, unless the information you have leads you to believe that he is cheating on her, I wouldn’t say anything. There are lots of possibilities — maybe he is not gay at all. Maybe he is bisexual and they’ve talked about it. Maybe he is gay but she doesn’t care to know for some reason. I kind of feel like getting involved in a friend’s relationship unless there is abuse or infidelity is a very bad idea.
AnonymousFRA
Maybe she knows he is bisexual and it doesn’t bother her. Is that a possibility, or has that already been ruled out?
Anon for this one...
I suspect she is suspicious based on her reaction to an incident.
surrounded by lawyers
My vote would be for not doing anything. There are so many unknowns here, and intervening could backfire soooo badly.
If the boyfriend has either made a move on your gay male friend, or your GMF has seen BF making out with a guy, then I think you go forward in the same way as you would if BF made a move on a female friend of yours, or was seen making out with a woman. Then the issue would be cheating, not sexual orientation. Obviously you can’t ignore the latter, and your friend might be all the more hurt if it turns out that indeed this guy is not attracted to women. But it’s such a personal thing that I think your best role is to be there for her as things develop (or possibly fall apart) rather than getting directly involved.
I understand that you want to protect her from more unhealthy relationships, but you can accomplish that by telling her the BF is cheating/trying to cheat, rather than by telling her he’s gay.
anonypants
I agree with this. What ever you choose to do, I would move forward with the thought in mind that she might know that he has bisexual tendencies and does not care enough to end the relationship. I’ve known a few couples like this over the years, and the wives already knew that their husbands had been involved with men in the past and married them anyway. The only issues that would have surprised / concerned the wives would have been cheating, not the gender of the cheatee.
E.E.
What is the information from the gay friend? Is it just his (more highly attuned) gaydar or does he know this person has been involved with men? If the latter, and you believe your friend has no idea, then I actually think it’s appropriate to tell her. Not in a judgmental way and you can and should acknowledge the possibility that he is bi and there is nothing wrong with that, but that you’d want to know if the roles were reversed.
If it’s just a hunch from you and your gay friend, I’d probably keep quiet for now.
Anonymous
I’m curious, and not trying to start a comment war but rather would like to hear some different perspectives on this:
– If you know (or suspect) that your friend’s s.o. has had past relationships that are same sex, what would motivate an obligation to tell your friend? For example, if my female friend were dating a man, I wouldn’t run to tell her if I found out he’d dated women prior to dating her, so why would I feel the need to say something if he’d dated both women and men? (Unless there was active cheating going on, in which case, as a previous commenter has already noted, the issue is about infidelity and not sexual orientation).
cbackson
I would feel no obligation to tell my friend. It’s much, much more common than people think for individuals who identify as straight to have same-sex relationships or experiences in their past. My assumption would be that my friend already knew.
E.E.
A couple reasons it’s different:
1) There’s always the possibility he’s gay and for whatever using said friend to hide his sexuality (i.e., to have someone opposite-sex to bring to work and family events, or even to have children with). Unfortunately, I have seen this happen. Really, truly awful for the woman involved if she has no idea.
2) Even if he’s bi and genuinely interested in the friend, I think this is information I’d want to have if it were me (in fact, I have dated a bi guy). If I only found out months into a relationship, I’d probably consider the omission really deceptive since it’s a real part of who this person is – totally different from finding out about some old girlfriend.
I have tons of gay friends and I’ve been open to dating bi guys, so this in no way has to do with thinking being attracted to the same sex is “bad.” It’s just something that I think should not be hidden.
E.E.
FWIW, I don’t disagree with cbackson. I’d be completely open to an honest “oh, I was experimenting. That was nothing and I am 100% capable of having a fulfilling relationship with you.” In that case, it wouldn’t be a big deal but I’d still appreciate it if a friend came to me with the info if I didn’t know it. And if I did know it, it wouldn’t be a big deal either. I don’t think it needs to be disclosed in some “I have really awful news for you” manner – it can just be factual and prefaced with, “you might already know this and even if you don’t it’s not necessarily a big deal, but if it were me I’d want to know.” (Because if it were me, I would want to know. If the poster wouldn’t then I suppose she’s under no obligation to share.)
Anon for this one...
Thank you – this is precisely my concern that she is essentially the “cover girl.”
Laura #2
Do you think most “cover girls” actually know, though? Not necessarily in the glaringly obvious way, but at least in the if-I-am-really-honest-with-myself-this-isn’t-surprising way? I’ve wondered this before. It seems to be the kind of thing that you would more than likely notice.
Has she said anything to you about this or expressed any concerns?
Anon for this one...
I think she knows things are a bit different and has chalked them up to other reasons i.e. he is creative etc. etc.
Accountress
If your best friend is “the beard,” she might already know. When I was in college, I was my best friend’s “girlfriend”- he was back home, I was two hundred miles away, we talked for hours on end anyway, and it got his family off his back while he figured out who he was and what he wanted. When other friends would tell me that they thought he was gay, I’d simply deny it and change the subject. I’m sure they thought I was blind, but the decision to be open was his choice- no one else’s.
Please, don’t tell your friend your suspicions about her boyfriend. If he’s gay, he’s keeping it mum for any number of reasons, and it’s not anyone’s place to share that.
Janie
Don’t say anything. If you are wrong (and unless he has told you otherwise, you can’t at the very least rule out the possibility that he is bisexual) it could hurt your friend and kill any trust between you.
Anon for this one...
Thank you for your comments, I see most are leaning in the direction of not saying anything. What about I attempt to have s conversation with her about the behavior that has come into question versus trying to label things. For instance, ask her what her thoughts are on situation ABC etc. does hse have any concerns?
Anon.
It sounds homophobic. (not accusing you, but like you’re fishing to point something out to her and why it may be a cause for concern).
live and let live. It’s absoulutely none of your business.
ADB_BWG
I was “that” friend – who wondered but didn’t know, and later learned that other people did know. It would have been good to have my suspicions validated rather than thinking I must be crazy to be the only one thinking he *might* be gay.
If you do decide to say something, I’d suggest something like this:
I think X might be gay or bisexual, based on Y. You may already have this information, but I wanted to raise the point once.
And then change the subject.
Mary
If you are dating him and think he might be gay, just ask him. If the relationship doesn’t survive being honest then it wasn’t meant to be. To judge someone based on certain activities they like as “maybe gay” is judgmental and god forbid, you did it in another facet of life, would be considered bigotry and wrong. I.e., he’s a bad driver so he must be an asian.
I’m disgusted by the amount of prejudice on this board from what can only be assertained as a female’s own insecurities.
Disgusted.
Anon for this one...
This response is directed toward “Mary” since I wrote the original post I feel I have to come to the defense of myself and the honest and helpful people who shared their perspectives. From my perspective there was no bigotry etc. exhibited and certainly nothing mentioned was intended to offend. The primary focus was how to go about looking out for the best interests of my friend – period. If you are in the dating scene they are many valid questions I believe should be asked/raised…especially if there are signs (not good/bad signs – just signs). However you identify yourself is your business and I could care less – just own it and be honest so people are not unnessarily hurt.
Mary
But Anon, he may be being honest. You have no proof he is gay. You have an inkling based off of things he enjoys that are not gay themelves. You are just jumping to conclusions based off of sterrotypes of what you consider “gay things” .
And that is what I find soo offensive.
Pineapple
Gay guys identify other gay guys based on “gay things” all the time. Are they right 100% of the time? Nope (but close!). Don’t see the harm in saying to someone:
“hey, my best gay friend saw your boyfriend at a Cher concert wearing eye makeup and with a bunch of guys he knows are gay. I know that doesn’t make him gay, but I just wanted to mention this because it’s something I’d like to know if it were me. You obviously know better than I do and I’m absolutely not passing any judgment or drawing any conclusions and would still love to hang out with the two of you as a couple, but like I said, just some info I’d want to have if it were me.”
Mary
“hey, my best gay friend saw your boyfriend at a Cher concert wearing eye makeup and with a bunch of guys he knows are gay. I know that doesn’t make him gay, but I just wanted to mention this because it’s something I’d like to know if it were me. You obviously know better than I do and I’m absolutely not passing any judgment or drawing any conclusions and would still love to hang out with the two of you as a couple, but like I said, just some info I’d want to have if it were me.”
This just sounds as if you;re trying to justify being judgmental. Like, “Oh didn’t know if you knew but I think Chris is black, but anyways, in case you didn’t just saw him, he’s in a black neighborhood, handing out with black people, in a car associated with black people. You obviously know better than I do, I still wouldlove to hang out with you, but just some info I’d want to know fi I were you”
How you think this is ok based on gay/stright, but would be appalled if based on race or ethnicity is beyond me.
Pineapple
Because it’s not about there being anything inherently wrong with the orientation! It’s about a relationship! Sexual orientation and relationships are intimately tied!! There’s a big problem if you are dating someone who is hiding their sexual orientation from you when it means the relationship could be some sort of sham. The problem is NOT the sexual orientation itself.
And honestly, if I had a blind friend who was under the impression she was dating someone of one race but I had reason to believe the person was of another race, I’d absolutely mention it. Not because there’s another wrong with any race, but because I don’t stand by silently when my friends are being lied to in their relationships. That is not racist.
ADB_BWG
Okay – for the record, I did ask. He denied. I later learned he’d been sexually involved with at least two of our mutual male friends during the time of denial. Fact is, had someone else *confirmed / validated* my suspicions, I might have had more faith in myself and my questions.
I truly wish him well and make no value judgments about his sexuality — then OR now.
As others have noted, this is more an issue of cheating than of orientation.
v
I don’t know, I mean, what is the behavior? If it’s obvious flirting, you could have that conversation in the same way you’d have it if he was obviously flirting with other women, but I’d be prepared for a lot of defensiveness and denial; if she wanted to see it, she would. Conversely, I would not have a”So, Justin seems to be really interested in musical theater” conversation. I can’t imagine that ending well.
Anon for this one...
Point taken – it’s more along the lines of participating in certain social activities, dressing up etc. etc., with other male friends.
anonypants
Well, I’d probably try to include her in events with said gay friends of mine in hopes that they’d develop enough of a rapport that the gay friend could make comments / jokes (but not really) about the boyfriend and she’d get the hint. Not the most up-front way of handling things, but less likely to damage the friendship.
You really are between a rock and a hard place, anon. I sympathize.
Mary
In all honesty, just because this guy likes things associated with gay men does not mean he’s gay. In this day and age, if most want to be gay, they can.
Many of hte posters here seem to sound a little too judgmental to make me comfortable. Because I like plaid and woodworking do you assume I’m a lesbian?
MelD
I couldn’t agree more. It’s one thing if you know a guy is having a relationship with another man, but it’s something else entirely to say “Oh he must be gay because he likes to shop and enjoys musicals.” I’m not really an ultra girly girl in many respects and I think that women like me tend to befriend men who aren’t really manly men— there are plenty of people like us out there who are not gay/lesbian.
E.E.
Why would it be a problem if people assumed you were a lesbian? I have a lesbian friend who might assume just that, and ask you out. She’d be wrong, you’d graciously say no, and that would be that. In a world of imperfect information, sometimes people use social clues. I don’t think that makes anyone “judgmental.”
Assuming something is bad about someone based on their race? Sure, that’s judgmental and bigoted. But assuming someone is gay is not bad. If you ask out a guy who turns out to be gay, would anyone slam on you for having assumed he was straight? If not, why’s it so bad to assume someone is gay? I honestly don’t understand your position.
Mary
The issue is if I was dating your brother would you pull him aside and warn him I might be a lesbian becuase of those social clues? That’s wrong and that;’s what the conversation is about. And assuming something is bad based on race is just as bad as assuming something is wrong based on my percieved sexual orientation.
If you do not see the similarity in the prejudiced notion you are raising, I fear you.
E.E.
If you are a lesbian and you are dating my brother *without him knowing*, something IS wrong. That’s different than assuming someone Asian can’t drive, using your example.
Nothing is wrong with you dating my brother if you simply bend certain gender norms or like hanging out at lesbian bars with your friends. Really, 100% fine. But on the chance that it were the former, if I thought I had more insight than he did based on third party info, I would share that in a non-judgmental way. This is information I would absolutely want to know if the roles were reversed.
This is similar to a situation where I was dating someone who told me he was a professional at a certain firm. A friend saw him when she was at a meeting at said firm and he appeared to be working in a receptionist role. She came to me with that info with the caveat that she wasn’t 100% sure he was a non-professional and there’s nothing inherently wrong with working in such a position, but that’s how it looked based on X, Y, and Z. She turned out to be right (and we ended seeing each other shortly thereafter because this led to an unraveling of a large web of lies), but even if she hadn’t been, I wouldn’t have been upset at her, the guy I was dating could presumably have just explained that he was filling in for the receptionist in a pinch (or whatever), and everything would have been fine.
As long as the information isn’t presented in a “you need to sit down, I have some awful news, you need to break up with Mary right away” sort of way, but more a “this is something I’d like to know if I were dating Mary, maybe you know this already and that’s cool,” I think it’s absolutely appropriate. But if you want to fear me, go right ahead. :-)
ABC
Mary, I generally agree with your conclusion that the best way is to just ask and that we shouldn’t really be making assumptions based on a few stereotypes, but your logic is flawed comparing this situation to the racial examples you’ve made. Too attenuated and doesn’t fit the facts here — I don’t see anyone suggesting anything “wrong” with a particular sexual orientation. You’re throwing a lot of stones to people who aren’t throwing them at you. But again, I agree with you in the end, so c’est la vie.
AnonInfinity
You say above that she knows about “some incidents” and either is in denial or chalks the behavior up to some other reason. It sounds like she already knows about the behavior, so I would really really really not bring it up with her unless she says something to you that makes it abundantly clear that she wants to discuss the issue.
I just can’t see how this could end other than dramatically and/or horribly (you vs. her, her vs. boyfriend, boyfriend vs. you, her vs. your guy friend).
Batgirl
I’m just going to throw this out there–why don’t we all come up with fake names rather than “Anon”? Not meant as serious criticism–just a lighthearted note–but we can make the names up. So why not choose “Rose” or “Belinda” rather than “AnonForThis”–more fun!
Signed,
Batgirl :)
Janie
Great idea, Batgirl! I’m already on board…
Signed,
Janie ;)
Cinnamon
Me too!
Batgirl
Ooh, I like Cinnamon!
Lola
Me too. And that’s the fun of this board – you can change your name to whatever goofy name you want on different posts.
…not that I do that…
WonderWoman
Ha! Love it!
bell
Relationships are between two people…and they work best between two people. This goes for meddling mothers, mothers-in-law, friends, brothers, sisters, etc.
Whether or not this guy is gay, bisexual, previously gay, or whatever is not really any of your business. Be a good, supportive friend to your GF, but stay out of it. If things go south between your friend and her man, just be supportive and never say “yeah, I thought he was X” or whatever it is you think about the guy.
Anon
I think this blazer would make hippy hourglasses like me look even hippier. Unfortunately that is not a look that I’m really going for!
CJ
Threadjack: I’m finally back to the gym, again, but am having a hard time finding gym clothes. I’m looking for yoga pants or the like but it seems all yoga pants are designed for thin chics and if I were thin you definitely wouldn’t find me at the gym. I’m a size ten and the problem I’m having is everything I’ve tried gives me muffin top and is ridiculously too tight in my thighs. I’ve seen women my size in these types of pants and they look good so I know they exist I just haven’t had any luck finding any. Please help! And I’m posting from my phone so forgive me if this post shows up in an odd place!
Anon.
I’m around your size. I get size Medium and long (5’9) yoga pants from NY and Co. They’re just non-expensive and cotton, but no muffin top and look decent.
L
When I was pregnant and postpartum, I got some size XL capri pants from Nike. I am normally a size 8 but got much bigger right away when I was pregnant, and those fit well and didn’t have muffin top. You may want to go up several sizes – even now when I wear an 8 I wear a large in most workout bottoms.
Maybe something like this?
http://www.titlenine.com/product/womens-bottoms/fitness-pants/215211.do?sortby=ourPicks
AnonInfinity
I don’t know if they’re any good for working out, but I have a pair of yoga pants from Old Navy that I love and that I think would be flattering for you. The waistband is made of stretchy fabric, kind of like maternity pants (but you fold down the waistband, so it doesn’t look like maternity pants), rather than elastic or whatever. I get muffin top from workout clothes a lot because the elastic waistband and generally tight fit push my fat up right over the waistband. But these cover up that area. And they are very inexpensive.
Ru
Ditto Old Navy. When I was a size 14, their medium would slip off of me.
RoadWarriorette
Lulu Lemon goes up to a size 12, and their stuff tends to run a bit big. It is also ridiculously flattering and long wearing. My sister is a yoga teacher and has four pairs that she has had for two years, which she wears every week, and they look as good as when she bought them.
SS
Second on the Lululemon recommendation, they size like dress sizes so the fit can be much more flattering than trying to force yourself into one of S,M,L. Also, the waistbands tend to be very thick (height wise, if that makes sense, it is just made of the same fabric of the pants) so they really help with muffin top (as compared with pants with a thin elastic waist band that just digs into your fat). Also, their fabric tends to be thicker than the average “spandex” pant, it holds you in better, smooths lumps and bumps, and doesn’t have any issues of being see-through.
They’re expensive, but worth every penny.
soulfusion
I will also add that love lululemon pants/shorts/capris. I have one pair of yoga pants that I have worn on a regular basis for about 5 years with absolutely no special care and they still look good. They hold their shape, no sign of wear or fading and they are flattering! Another pair I haven’t had nearly as long (probably about 3 years) also look good as new. I think they are worth the splurge. Plus, it really helps to have something cute to wear as a motivation to get to the gym (in my opinion).
alhambra
it’s true. I go to the gym more often because I have cute pants, and I think it’s a shame to have them sit in my closet. Whatever works, right?
Jas
I agree. Lulu Lemons are pretty expensive, but they are incredibly flattering and high quality. There’s a reason everyone in Vancouver wears them.
NL
I love the yoga pants from Athleta because many of them have a wide band at the waist, which is more comfortable and doesn’t create weird bulges like thin bands do. I’d suggest trying anything in the Chaturanga group, which have wide waist bands and a reasonably high rise:
http://athleta.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=46800&vid=1&pid=819707
I own several pairs of these and love them. I do yoga 5 days a week, and they hold up beautifully. The fabric is thick enough not to show every lump and is not at all see through (so no worries about embarrassing downward dogs!). They are certainly not cheap, but I think they’re worth it if you’re going to be using them a lot.
alhambra
lululemon groove pants are higher-waisted and they look great on. They’re expensive so if you’re only wearing them to the gym they might not be worth it to you.
Elaine
I am extremely hippy- love lululemon, but these Target pants are EXACTLY like a pair of lululemon flared yoga pants. Amazing. http://www.target.com/C9-Champion-Reversible-Premium-Pants/dp/B003TSYTW0/ref=sc_qi_detaillink
j
you may want to try the yoga pants with the fold over waist bands. they have them at Victorias secret (i love my yoga pants from there!), old navy and target. all the extra fabric up top gives you a lot of room to play with and fold it over at the portion of your waist that will NOT give you muffin top. also, fwiw, i am pretty slim and some yoga pants give me muffin top too- i think its where they hit.
Also- congrats for getting back to the gym! Stick with it- you will feel great no matter what the mirror or the scale says!!!
http://www.victoriassecret.com/ss/Satellite?ProductID=1265384373909&c=Page&cid=1292979627099&pagename=vsdWrapper&search=true
http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=41581&vid=1&pid=633125&scid=633125032
Nit
I love Marika’s yoga pants, and I am a size 8/10. I have more of a problem with my hips than my stomach, but they seem very slenderizing. Specifically, they lift the rear and slim everything else (now if only I could look that way all of the time…).
I buy mine from TJ Maxx for $14-16. Since I run a lot, I prefer the capris to the pants, but both fit very well.
Here are some of the ones that I like to wear:
http://www.marika.com/productinfo_item_673-dc_507-md_-pd_500-sn_14.htm
http://www.marika.com/productinfo_item_711-dc_507-md_-pd_500-sn_25.htm
http://www.marika.com/productinfo_item_715-dc_507-md_-pd_500-sn_44.htm
JJ
I swear by Champion C9 pants at Target. I know lululemon are great, but if I’m going to spend money on clothes, it isn’t going to be on workout clothes (no offense to those of you that do, obviously. Just different priorities). I also love Champion because when I do inevitably tear/rip/stain/etc them, I know they cost +/- 20 dollars and I can just replace them.
WonderWoman
I’m around your size. For yoga, climbing, and elliptical running, I love Serenity Tights from Patagonia — soft organic cotton + lycra, flattering fit, not too tight, wide waistband that can be folded over, or not. I take a M – I think the sizes are pretty generous – a L falls off me. Patagonia cuts generally suit athletic builds.
CJ
Thanks all I appreciate it and can’t wait to go shopping!
L
I just ordered a bunch of stuff on Boden before the 15% ran out. I will give reviews when I get it! Mostly nice tops for work for spring.
I also really want a light grey suit from BR or J crew, but I am holding out until I can actually wear it in the spring!!
Emma
15% you say? Is there a coupon code I’m missing?
Emma
Whoops! Meant to reply to L.
L
If you google “boden coupon code” there are a couple sites that give 15% off, plus free shipping and free returns. I recall from my catalog that it expires soon though (the 11th maybe??).
Emma
Got it, thanks!
Megan
They are also running a buy 3 get the 4th for $1 promotion, with free shipping, right now.
AB
Buttons too big, seems a little tight. With smaller buttons though, it’d be on my “can’t afford it but would like it” list.
TR
That jacket says circus clown to me. It is the shrunken cut, the super big lapels and the gigantic buttons. I 20 something could pull this off…I guess.
A woman of a certain age would look like she was trying to hard to be “hip”.
I note it is styled with jeans – so I surmise this would be a casual Friday jacket?
Bad Online Shopper
Sorry, threadjack, but I have about 7 items that I bought online from a major department store that amount to about $1500. Unfortunately, tried them all on and look horrible in each item. Shipping and insuring it seems quite a hassle and I think it might be easier to just lug all the items to the store and return them. Are sales people or the store going to give me a fuss about returning this many online items and for this amount? I just haven’t shopped online to this extent before and purchased so many things that I don’t like.
rg
Nope…I do this all the time. I’m XXSP so it’s rare that they carry my size in store…and most stuff doesn’t fit me even when it’s “my size”.
Lola
If it’s a national chain, and it’s ok to return stuff to the store, then no, they won’t hassle you. No problem.
SF Bay Associate
I’ve returned more than $1k in online merchandise to Nordstrom’s and Saks before (day after xmas sales!). No problem. Besides, they should not give you a fuss because clearly you are inclined to spend money at their store. If you get an attitude, ask to have a manager handle your transaction.
Note that Neiman’s online returns is in customer service, not the department where the clothes could have come from. You can return online to Nordstrom departments, but I always go to customer service because it’s easier. With Saks, you have to go to each dept the items came from (PITA).
Ru
I ordered evening gowns online from Macy’s and had to return them either at Herald Square or Roosevelt Field locations since those were locations closest to me that had those departments. Super annoying.
Bad Online Shopper
Thanks so much ladies! I will totally go ahead and do and not feel completely weird about doing it. :)
Anon for this
Threadjack:
Anyone have advice on how to ask for a raise/promotion in a state government setting? I am currently in a position for which I had a lot of experience coming. As a result, I’m now doing some supervision of another person with my position, picking up work for several other departments (in some cases doing other people’s jobs because they can’t complete them on time), and creating and managing my own projects (which is really not part of my job description at all). I’m enjoying the extra work, but I feel like I’m not at all being compensated or respected for my contribution (things are very hierarchical here, so not having the right “title” really impacts how people you don’t work with directly perceive and treat you). I know that the state budget is tight and there’s a pretty strict staffing plan for my agency so merit promotions are not common. But any ideas on how to improve my situation (even if it’s just best ways to document my case for longer term promotions)?
MelD
If your state is anything like mine, you are stuck unless you can apply to another open position at a higher pay grade/level. We’ve had salary freezes for years and unless you bargain into another position (typically with another state agency), there really isn’t any way to get a raise.
gov anon
Well, in my state, you’re pretty much stuck. Budgets are tight. Merit based raises aren’t happening and for many positions you’re paid by your title and step on the pay scale regardless of what you do. And it’s not uncommon for people to be picking up work that isn’t part of the actual job description.
You’re best bet is to keep a list of your accomplishments and the skills you’re gaining. Eventually the pendulum will swing back and new positions will open up.
RKS
How about asking for a promotion/title change without a raise, to account for the new duties? That resolves the budget issue and also sets you up for a raise later once budgets loosen up a bit.
Frump
I feel like this looks like it came straight from the Kohl’s junior’s section, thanks to the cut, pattern, and not that great looking material. Plus, could the plastic buttons be any bigger?? I can’t believe it was $1000 originally. I could buy a Burberry trench and a pair of Cole Hann heels for that price and not look like I just walked out of a high school debate tournament had I bought this. Yuck.